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{\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 261.317, \"end\": 261.477, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 261.477, \"end\": 261.617, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 261.617, \"end\": 261.717, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 261.717, \"end\": 261.858, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 261.858, \"end\": 261.878, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"時\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,337 --> 00:00:09,998\n好謝謝主席那有請主委謝謝好請你主委好主委好這個我們今天在這邊一整天我的朋友在線上問我說你們到底在談什麼這樣大家已經有點看不懂了那我就解釋給他聽我說呢國民黨的提案他希望這個得票數的部分呢還有這個身份證的部分\n\n2\n00:00:33,743 --> 00:01:02,782\n那我的朋友就聽懂了我的朋友問我說那這樣到底會對民主政治造成什麼傷害那我就做了一些結論主委可不可以從您過去從事政治工作的經驗參與台灣民主自由的經驗來告訴我我的總結對不對我認為如果按照藍白的提案會有一個很大的部分的疑慮就是當讓我們的國民交出身份證的時候其實可能會降低人民對於政治的信任度\n\n3\n00:01:03,322 --> 00:01:09,264\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。\n\n4\n00:01:30,051 --> 00:01:53,104\n對,我相信尤其是內政部這麼積極地在做很多詐騙、紡織的工作一個非常重要的提醒不管是對長輩或是對青少年我們都告訴大家不要隨便交出證件所以我覺得光是這件事情我們就應該更努力地讓全國人民知道如果真的藍白的法案通過之後光是身份證這件事情我覺得是一般人民會有同感的接下來,像這樣子\n\n5\n00:01:54,685 --> 00:01:59,231\n二、審查委員董固自己權利的法案,若通過之後,是否再度增加參與政治不平等的機會,偏袒既得權利者?\n\n6\n00:02:09,804 --> 00:02:31,573\n也就是說如果罷免的門檻變這麼困難然後不適任的民意代表這麼難以被罷免其實人民就會對政治越來越冷感越來越沒有信心認為都是你們這些在搞政治的人自己玩就好了於是民意代表被監督的強度跟機會也就降低了這個直接的是限制了人民的罷免權\n\n7\n00:02:33,213 --> 00:02:56,821\n當然反射的利益是不是有些公職人員會因此而避免或者是躲過這個被罷免的可能性這個反射的利益會存在對沒錯我認為這件事情應該讓更多人知道接下來我認為回到我們自己身為民意代表身上我們會不會就因此降低了對政治工作負責任的態度\n\n8\n00:02:57,961 --> 00:03:21,922\n尤其是現在我們看到很多立法委員一天到晚在上通告我們久久才能夠看到他甚至於跟我在同樣一個交易文化委員會的業員之委員他連第一次要質詢的時候他都搞不清楚狀況他錯過了第一次的質詢我認為這樣是一個非常不及格的民意代表一旦藍白的法案通過之後把這個罷免的門檻變得這麼難是不是我們就更難以\n\n9\n00:03:24,944 --> 00:03:25,966\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。\n\n10\n00:03:31,777 --> 00:03:40,062\n公職人員如何去行使他的職權,如何去經營他的選民,這個每個人可能都有不同的方式,所以這點我們就無從評論。\n\n11\n00:04:01,076 --> 00:04:21,878\n大致大家對於政治越來越冷感公民參與社會討論議題的可能性跟範圍也會越縮越小所以我認為我們今天之所以花這麼長的時間討論就是希望避免剛剛那個狀況當然我希望後續我們還有很多事情要討論跟積極的進行到時候再請主委我們一起努力好嗎好謝謝委員好謝謝主委謝謝主席我非常準時\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6337\t9998\t好謝謝主席那有請主委謝謝好請你主委好主委好這個我們今天在這邊一整天我的朋友在線上問我說你們到底在談什麼這樣大家已經有點看不懂了那我就解釋給他聽我說呢國民黨的提案他希望這個得票數的部分呢還有這個身份證的部分\n33743\t62782\t那我的朋友就聽懂了我的朋友問我說那這樣到底會對民主政治造成什麼傷害那我就做了一些結論主委可不可以從您過去從事政治工作的經驗參與台灣民主自由的經驗來告訴我我的總結對不對我認為如果按照藍白的提案會有一個很大的部分的疑慮就是當讓我們的國民交出身份證的時候其實可能會降低人民對於政治的信任度\n63322\t69264\t二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。\n90051\t113104\t對,我相信尤其是內政部這麼積極地在做很多詐騙、紡織的工作一個非常重要的提醒不管是對長輩或是對青少年我們都告訴大家不要隨便交出證件所以我覺得光是這件事情我們就應該更努力地讓全國人民知道如果真的藍白的法案通過之後光是身份證這件事情我覺得是一般人民會有同感的接下來,像這樣子\n114685\t119231\t二、審查委員董固自己權利的法案,若通過之後,是否再度增加參與政治不平等的機會,偏袒既得權利者?\n129804\t151573\t也就是說如果罷免的門檻變這麼困難然後不適任的民意代表這麼難以被罷免其實人民就會對政治越來越冷感越來越沒有信心認為都是你們這些在搞政治的人自己玩就好了於是民意代表被監督的強度跟機會也就降低了這個直接的是限制了人民的罷免權\n153213\t176821\t當然反射的利益是不是有些公職人員會因此而避免或者是躲過這個被罷免的可能性這個反射的利益會存在對沒錯我認為這件事情應該讓更多人知道接下來我認為回到我們自己身為民意代表身上我們會不會就因此降低了對政治工作負責任的態度\n177961\t201922\t尤其是現在我們看到很多立法委員一天到晚在上通告我們久久才能夠看到他甚至於跟我在同樣一個交易文化委員會的業員之委員他連第一次要質詢的時候他都搞不清楚狀況他錯過了第一次的質詢我認為這樣是一個非常不及格的民意代表一旦藍白的法案通過之後把這個罷免的門檻變得這麼難是不是我們就更難以\n204944\t205966\t二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。\n211777\t220062\t公職人員如何去行使他的職權,如何去經營他的選民,這個每個人可能都有不同的方式,所以這點我們就無從評論。\n241076\t261878\t大致大家對於政治越來越冷感公民參與社會討論議題的可能性跟範圍也會越縮越小所以我認為我們今天之所以花這麼長的時間討論就是希望避免剛剛那個狀況當然我希望後續我們還有很多事情要討論跟積極的進行到時候再請主委我們一起努力好嗎好謝謝委員好謝謝主委謝謝主席我非常準時\n","txt":"好謝謝主席那有請主委謝謝好請你主委好主委好這個我們今天在這邊一整天我的朋友在線上問我說你們到底在談什麼這樣大家已經有點看不懂了那我就解釋給他聽我說呢國民黨的提案他希望這個得票數的部分呢還有這個身份證的部分\n那我的朋友就聽懂了我的朋友問我說那這樣到底會對民主政治造成什麼傷害那我就做了一些結論主委可不可以從您過去從事政治工作的經驗參與台灣民主自由的經驗來告訴我我的總結對不對我認為如果按照藍白的提案會有一個很大的部分的疑慮就是當讓我們的國民交出身份證的時候其實可能會降低人民對於政治的信任度\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。\n對,我相信尤其是內政部這麼積極地在做很多詐騙、紡織的工作一個非常重要的提醒不管是對長輩或是對青少年我們都告訴大家不要隨便交出證件所以我覺得光是這件事情我們就應該更努力地讓全國人民知道如果真的藍白的法案通過之後光是身份證這件事情我覺得是一般人民會有同感的接下來,像這樣子\n二、審查委員董固自己權利的法案,若通過之後,是否再度增加參與政治不平等的機會,偏袒既得權利者?\n也就是說如果罷免的門檻變這麼困難然後不適任的民意代表這麼難以被罷免其實人民就會對政治越來越冷感越來越沒有信心認為都是你們這些在搞政治的人自己玩就好了於是民意代表被監督的強度跟機會也就降低了這個直接的是限制了人民的罷免權\n當然反射的利益是不是有些公職人員會因此而避免或者是躲過這個被罷免的可能性這個反射的利益會存在對沒錯我認為這件事情應該讓更多人知道接下來我認為回到我們自己身為民意代表身上我們會不會就因此降低了對政治工作負責任的態度\n尤其是現在我們看到很多立法委員一天到晚在上通告我們久久才能夠看到他甚至於跟我在同樣一個交易文化委員會的業員之委員他連第一次要質詢的時候他都搞不清楚狀況他錯過了第一次的質詢我認為這樣是一個非常不及格的民意代表一旦藍白的法案通過之後把這個罷免的門檻變得這麼難是不是我們就更難以\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。\n公職人員如何去行使他的職權,如何去經營他的選民,這個每個人可能都有不同的方式,所以這點我們就無從評論。\n大致大家對於政治越來越冷感公民參與社會討論議題的可能性跟範圍也會越縮越小所以我認為我們今天之所以花這麼長的時間討論就是希望避免剛剛那個狀況當然我希望後續我們還有很多事情要討論跟積極的進行到時候再請主委我們一起努力好嗎好謝謝委員好謝謝主委謝謝主席我非常準時\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.337 --> 00:09.998\n好謝謝主席那有請主委謝謝好請你主委好主委好這個我們今天在這邊一整天我的朋友在線上問我說你們到底在談什麼這樣大家已經有點看不懂了那我就解釋給他聽我說呢國民黨的提案他希望這個得票數的部分呢還有這個身份證的部分\n\n00:33.743 --> 01:02.782\n那我的朋友就聽懂了我的朋友問我說那這樣到底會對民主政治造成什麼傷害那我就做了一些結論主委可不可以從您過去從事政治工作的經驗參與台灣民主自由的經驗來告訴我我的總結對不對我認為如果按照藍白的提案會有一個很大的部分的疑慮就是當讓我們的國民交出身份證的時候其實可能會降低人民對於政治的信任度\n\n01:03.322 --> 01:09.264\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。\n\n01:30.051 --> 01:53.104\n對,我相信尤其是內政部這麼積極地在做很多詐騙、紡織的工作一個非常重要的提醒不管是對長輩或是對青少年我們都告訴大家不要隨便交出證件所以我覺得光是這件事情我們就應該更努力地讓全國人民知道如果真的藍白的法案通過之後光是身份證這件事情我覺得是一般人民會有同感的接下來,像這樣子\n\n01:54.685 --> 01:59.231\n二、審查委員董固自己權利的法案,若通過之後,是否再度增加參與政治不平等的機會,偏袒既得權利者?\n\n02:09.804 --> 02:31.573\n也就是說如果罷免的門檻變這麼困難然後不適任的民意代表這麼難以被罷免其實人民就會對政治越來越冷感越來越沒有信心認為都是你們這些在搞政治的人自己玩就好了於是民意代表被監督的強度跟機會也就降低了這個直接的是限制了人民的罷免權\n\n02:33.213 --> 02:56.821\n當然反射的利益是不是有些公職人員會因此而避免或者是躲過這個被罷免的可能性這個反射的利益會存在對沒錯我認為這件事情應該讓更多人知道接下來我認為回到我們自己身為民意代表身上我們會不會就因此降低了對政治工作負責任的態度\n\n02:57.961 --> 03:21.922\n尤其是現在我們看到很多立法委員一天到晚在上通告我們久久才能夠看到他甚至於跟我在同樣一個交易文化委員會的業員之委員他連第一次要質詢的時候他都搞不清楚狀況他錯過了第一次的質詢我認為這樣是一個非常不及格的民意代表一旦藍白的法案通過之後把這個罷免的門檻變得這麼難是不是我們就更難以\n\n03:24.944 --> 03:25.966\n二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。\n\n03:31.777 --> 03:40.062\n公職人員如何去行使他的職權,如何去經營他的選民,這個每個人可能都有不同的方式,所以這點我們就無從評論。\n\n04:01.076 --> 04:21.878\n大致大家對於政治越來越冷感公民參與社會討論議題的可能性跟範圍也會越縮越小所以我認為我們今天之所以花這麼長的時間討論就是希望避免剛剛那個狀況當然我希望後續我們還有很多事情要討論跟積極的進行到時候再請主委我們一起努力好嗎好謝謝委員好謝謝主委謝謝主席我非常準時\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.337,"end":9.998,"text":"好謝謝主席那有請主委謝謝好請你主委好主委好這個我們今天在這邊一整天我的朋友在線上問我說你們到底在談什麼這樣大家已經有點看不懂了那我就解釋給他聽我說呢國民黨的提案他希望這個得票數的部分呢還有這個身份證的部分"},{"start":33.743,"end":62.782,"text":"那我的朋友就聽懂了我的朋友問我說那這樣到底會對民主政治造成什麼傷害那我就做了一些結論主委可不可以從您過去從事政治工作的經驗參與台灣民主自由的經驗來告訴我我的總結對不對我認為如果按照藍白的提案會有一個很大的部分的疑慮就是當讓我們的國民交出身份證的時候其實可能會降低人民對於政治的信任度"},{"start":63.322,"end":69.264,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":90.051,"end":113.104,"text":"對,我相信尤其是內政部這麼積極地在做很多詐騙、紡織的工作一個非常重要的提醒不管是對長輩或是對青少年我們都告訴大家不要隨便交出證件所以我覺得光是這件事情我們就應該更努力地讓全國人民知道如果真的藍白的法案通過之後光是身份證這件事情我覺得是一般人民會有同感的接下來,像這樣子"},{"start":114.685,"end":119.231,"text":"二、審查委員董固自己權利的法案,若通過之後,是否再度增加參與政治不平等的機會,偏袒既得權利者?"},{"start":129.804,"end":151.573,"text":"也就是說如果罷免的門檻變這麼困難然後不適任的民意代表這麼難以被罷免其實人民就會對政治越來越冷感越來越沒有信心認為都是你們這些在搞政治的人自己玩就好了於是民意代表被監督的強度跟機會也就降低了這個直接的是限制了人民的罷免權"},{"start":153.213,"end":176.821,"text":"當然反射的利益是不是有些公職人員會因此而避免或者是躲過這個被罷免的可能性這個反射的利益會存在對沒錯我認為這件事情應該讓更多人知道接下來我認為回到我們自己身為民意代表身上我們會不會就因此降低了對政治工作負責任的態度"},{"start":177.961,"end":201.922,"text":"尤其是現在我們看到很多立法委員一天到晚在上通告我們久久才能夠看到他甚至於跟我在同樣一個交易文化委員會的業員之委員他連第一次要質詢的時候他都搞不清楚狀況他錯過了第一次的質詢我認為這樣是一個非常不及格的民意代表一旦藍白的法案通過之後把這個罷免的門檻變得這麼難是不是我們就更難以"},{"start":204.944,"end":205.966,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":211.777,"end":220.062,"text":"公職人員如何去行使他的職權,如何去經營他的選民,這個每個人可能都有不同的方式,所以這點我們就無從評論。"},{"start":241.076,"end":261.878,"text":"大致大家對於政治越來越冷感公民參與社會討論議題的可能性跟範圍也會越縮越小所以我認為我們今天之所以花這麼長的時間討論就是希望避免剛剛那個狀況當然我希望後續我們還有很多事情要討論跟積極的進行到時候再請主委我們一起努力好嗎好謝謝委員好謝謝主委謝謝主席我非常準時"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1885,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（18時43分）謝謝主席，有請主委，謝謝。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：主委好。我們今天在這邊一整天，我的朋友在線上問我，你們到底在談什麼？大家已經有點看不懂了，我就解釋給他，我說了國民黨的提案，有關得票數的部分跟身分證的部分，我的朋友就聽懂了，然後我的朋友問我，這樣到底會對民主政治造成什麼傷害？我就做了一些結論。主委可不可以從您過去從事政治工作的經驗、參與臺灣民主自由的經驗來告訴我，我的總結對不對。我認為如果按照藍、白的提案，會有一個很大部分的疑慮就是，當要我們的國民交出身分證的時候，其實可能會降低人民對於政治的信任度，這個部分你認同嗎？也就是說，如果我的資料是可以被國家這樣掌控的，如果國家用這樣的權力來強迫人民，其實會讓人民對於民主政治是越來越沒有信心。"],["李主任委員進勇：交出身分證牽涉到個人資料的部分，國民是會有戒心的，這個戒心也許是來自於對政府的不信任，也許是來自於對詐騙集團的憂慮，都有可能。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，我相信，尤其是內政部這麼積極地在做很多詐騙防制工作，一個非常重要的提醒，不管是對長輩或是對青少年，我們都告訴大家不要隨便交出證件，所以我覺得光是這件事情，我們就應該要更努力地讓全國人民知道，如果真的照藍、白的法案通過之後，光是身分證這件事情，我覺得一般人民會有同感的。","接下來，像這樣子鞏固自己權力的法案，我必須要這麼定義它，鞏固自己權力的法案如果通過之後，是不是再度增加了參與政治的不平等的機會，偏袒既得權力者？我這樣的結論，你覺得你可以接受嗎？也就是說，如果罷免的門檻變得這麼困難，不適任的民意代表這麼難以被罷免，其實人民就會對政治越來越冷感、越來越沒有信心，認為都是你們這些在搞政治的人自己玩就好了，於是民意代表被監督的強度跟機會也就降低了。"],["李主任委員進勇：這個直接的限制了人民的罷免權，當然，反射的利益是不是有些公職人員會因此而避免或是躲過被罷免的可能性，這個反射的利益會存在。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，沒錯，我認為這件事情應該要讓更多人知道。","接下來，我認為回到我們自己身為民意代表身上，我們會不會就因此降低了對政治工作負責任的態度？尤其是現在我們看到很多立法委員一天到晚在上通告，我們久久才能夠看到他，甚至於跟我同樣在教育及文化委員會的葉元之委員，他連第一次要質詢的時候都搞不清楚狀況，他錯過了第一次的質詢，我認為這樣是一個非常不及格的民意代表，一旦藍、白的法案通過之後，把這個罷免的門檻變得這麼難，是不是我們就更難以去處理像這樣子不認真的民意代表、不負責的民意代表？"],["李主任委員進勇：公職人員如何去行使他的職權，如何去經營他的選民，每個人可能都有不同的方式，所以這一點我們就無從評論。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒問題。最後一個，我告訴我朋友最後一個非常重要的事情，我認為它會削弱自由民主的正當性，怎麼說？因為民主的正當性來自於程序的公平及公民的廣泛參與，如果這個制度設計是在偏袒當權者、偏袒這些既得利益者，我認為長此以往將導致大家對於政治越來越冷感，公民參與社會討論議題的可能性跟範圍也會越縮越小。所以我認為我們今天之所以花這麼長的時間討論，就是希望避免剛剛的那個狀況，當然後續我們還有很多事情要討論跟積極的進行，到時候再請主委跟我們一起努力，好嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝主委，謝謝主席，我非常準時。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員。","接下來請劉建國委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-14","speakers":["徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李柏毅","黃捷","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","張嘉郡","翁曉玲","張啓楷","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","林楚茵","吳思瑤","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林俊憲","張雅琳","林思銘","黃秀芳","許智傑","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","王義川","莊瑞雄","廖先翔","林宜瑾","林淑芬","賴惠員","傅崐萁","陳素月","吳秉叡","王正旭","徐富癸","邱志偉","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","郭昱晴","林月琴","邱議瑩","李昆澤","葉元之","陳瑩","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於中央選舉委員會及所屬單位預算；二、審查「公職人員\n選舉罷免法」修正草案，計六案：(一)審查委員楊曜等17人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七\n條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第六\n十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第五十三條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員陳冠廷等25人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第五十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)審查委員許宇甄等39人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第七十五條及第九十條條文修正\n草案」案、(六)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第三十二條及第四十三條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1140201_00001"}}}