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11:56:57","影片長度":"00:05:02","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張嘉郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員賴士葆等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）國民黨黨團擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二十）委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-05","start_time":"2024-12-05T11:51:55+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-05T11:56:57+08:00","duration":302,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"157985","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157985","tool":"pyannote","id":"157985-pyannote"},"job_id":"oFprKHfjJnVFN6Iw","queued_at":"2024-12-06 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00:00:47,223\n過去我們為了顧及世代正義那也兼顧年金制度的合理化健全化永續化那總統府有成立國家年金改革委員會在縝密的討論跟考量下我們在2018修正實施至今那我想如果當初沒有推行這個改革根據精算的結果退府基金將提前在2030年破產\n\n3\n00:00:50,406 --> 00:01:05,148\n這下不只是國家照顧不到公務人員,我想連現任的公務人員也都連帶被拖累,甚至對於年度總預算的編列也出現很大的衝擊。我想在改革下,財政的效益當然是顯而易見。\n\n4\n00:01:06,770 --> 00:01:10,315\n2016到2023軍公教人員節省的經費全部役注在退輔基金高達2774億另外我們有撥補294億役注專戶薪資所造成的缺口\n\n5\n00:01:21,690 --> 00:01:22,471\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具«公務人員退休資遣\n\n6\n00:01:40,774 --> 00:02:10,135\n很明顯啦就想要進一步來拖垮國家的財政我覺得是一個相當不負責任的修法那我想既然國家要對公務人員來照顧那這個修法的方向顯然一定不是全序部所贊同的所以要請教部長全序部站在照顧公務人員的立場是不是可以說明一下停止退休所的替代率在逐年降低是不是會影響全體公務人員的權益\n\n7\n00:02:10,595 --> 00:02:11,476\n財務的永續經營會有很大的影響\n\n8\n00:02:35,534 --> 00:02:55,181\n所以其實我們有關當年的年金改革修法司法院也曾做出憲法解釋肯認修法的核限性那若依據釋字第782號的解釋當年備受國民黨質疑的所謂的法律不溯及寄往原則信賴保護原則以及比例原則\n\n9\n00:02:56,201 --> 00:03:13,949\n年金改革修法完全合憲。」從這個釋字也可以看出大法官的態度就是肯定年金改革的合憲以及它的必要所以我想這次的修法將可能打翻過去我們在改革上所作努力特別是影響國家財政的穩健所以之前前副總統陳建仁為了這個\n\n10\n00:03:22,393 --> 00:03:24,235\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n\n11\n00:03:45,819 --> 00:04:10,749\n可是我們看到這次的修法不但有可能將打破這項的保障那有可能在拖累我們下的世代所以我想要請教部長就在釋字第782號解釋肯認當年修法合憲的結果這個請我一下你怎麼來看就是這一次違反世代正義修法的合憲性\n\n12\n00:04:12,844 --> 00:04:39,254\n我想當初年改已經經過大法官會議的解釋所謂的改革措施基本上都是具有合憲性包括性愛保護我想那是一個最大一個大家很概念也因為他要創造更大的公共利益社會利益都認為合憲那如果這一次有一些提案說想要再重新討論我想是立法委員的執掌我們是尊重但是建議這個應該叫再尋求社會的多次的共識來一起討論我想會是比較\n\n13\n00:04:40,054 --> 00:04:41,576\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案案\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n269\t15080\t下一位我們請第一金委員發言謝謝主席有請全市部司部長麻煩司部長\n22264\t47223\t過去我們為了顧及世代正義那也兼顧年金制度的合理化健全化永續化那總統府有成立國家年金改革委員會在縝密的討論跟考量下我們在2018修正實施至今那我想如果當初沒有推行這個改革根據精算的結果退府基金將提前在2030年破產\n50406\t65148\t這下不只是國家照顧不到公務人員,我想連現任的公務人員也都連帶被拖累,甚至對於年度總預算的編列也出現很大的衝擊。我想在改革下,財政的效益當然是顯而易見。\n66770\t70315\t2016到2023軍公教人員節省的經費全部役注在退輔基金高達2774億另外我們有撥補294億役注專戶薪資所造成的缺口\n81690\t82471\t三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣\n100774\t130135\t很明顯啦就想要進一步來拖垮國家的財政我覺得是一個相當不負責任的修法那我想既然國家要對公務人員來照顧那這個修法的方向顯然一定不是全序部所贊同的所以要請教部長全序部站在照顧公務人員的立場是不是可以說明一下停止退休所的替代率在逐年降低是不是會影響全體公務人員的權益\n130595\t131476\t財務的永續經營會有很大的影響\n155534\t175181\t所以其實我們有關當年的年金改革修法司法院也曾做出憲法解釋肯認修法的核限性那若依據釋字第782號的解釋當年備受國民黨質疑的所謂的法律不溯及寄往原則信賴保護原則以及比例原則\n176201\t193949\t年金改革修法完全合憲。」從這個釋字也可以看出大法官的態度就是肯定年金改革的合憲以及它的必要所以我想這次的修法將可能打翻過去我們在改革上所作努力特別是影響國家財政的穩健所以之前前副總統陳建仁為了這個\n202393\t204235\t撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n225819\t250749\t可是我們看到這次的修法不但有可能將打破這項的保障那有可能在拖累我們下的世代所以我想要請教部長就在釋字第782號解釋肯認當年修法合憲的結果這個請我一下你怎麼來看就是這一次違反世代正義修法的合憲性\n252844\t279254\t我想當初年改已經經過大法官會議的解釋所謂的改革措施基本上都是具有合憲性包括性愛保護我想那是一個最大一個大家很概念也因為他要創造更大的公共利益社會利益都認為合憲那如果這一次有一些提案說想要再重新討論我想是立法委員的執掌我們是尊重但是建議這個應該叫再尋求社會的多次的共識來一起討論我想會是比較\n280054\t281576\t撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案案\n","txt":"下一位我們請第一金委員發言謝謝主席有請全市部司部長麻煩司部長\n過去我們為了顧及世代正義那也兼顧年金制度的合理化健全化永續化那總統府有成立國家年金改革委員會在縝密的討論跟考量下我們在2018修正實施至今那我想如果當初沒有推行這個改革根據精算的結果退府基金將提前在2030年破產\n這下不只是國家照顧不到公務人員,我想連現任的公務人員也都連帶被拖累,甚至對於年度總預算的編列也出現很大的衝擊。我想在改革下,財政的效益當然是顯而易見。\n2016到2023軍公教人員節省的經費全部役注在退輔基金高達2774億另外我們有撥補294億役注專戶薪資所造成的缺口\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣\n很明顯啦就想要進一步來拖垮國家的財政我覺得是一個相當不負責任的修法那我想既然國家要對公務人員來照顧那這個修法的方向顯然一定不是全序部所贊同的所以要請教部長全序部站在照顧公務人員的立場是不是可以說明一下停止退休所的替代率在逐年降低是不是會影響全體公務人員的權益\n財務的永續經營會有很大的影響\n所以其實我們有關當年的年金改革修法司法院也曾做出憲法解釋肯認修法的核限性那若依據釋字第782號的解釋當年備受國民黨質疑的所謂的法律不溯及寄往原則信賴保護原則以及比例原則\n年金改革修法完全合憲。」從這個釋字也可以看出大法官的態度就是肯定年金改革的合憲以及它的必要所以我想這次的修法將可能打翻過去我們在改革上所作努力特別是影響國家財政的穩健所以之前前副總統陳建仁為了這個\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n可是我們看到這次的修法不但有可能將打破這項的保障那有可能在拖累我們下的世代所以我想要請教部長就在釋字第782號解釋肯認當年修法合憲的結果這個請我一下你怎麼來看就是這一次違反世代正義修法的合憲性\n我想當初年改已經經過大法官會議的解釋所謂的改革措施基本上都是具有合憲性包括性愛保護我想那是一個最大一個大家很概念也因為他要創造更大的公共利益社會利益都認為合憲那如果這一次有一些提案說想要再重新討論我想是立法委員的執掌我們是尊重但是建議這個應該叫再尋求社會的多次的共識來一起討論我想會是比較\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案案\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.269 --> 00:15.080\n下一位我們請第一金委員發言謝謝主席有請全市部司部長麻煩司部長\n\n00:22.264 --> 00:47.223\n過去我們為了顧及世代正義那也兼顧年金制度的合理化健全化永續化那總統府有成立國家年金改革委員會在縝密的討論跟考量下我們在2018修正實施至今那我想如果當初沒有推行這個改革根據精算的結果退府基金將提前在2030年破產\n\n00:50.406 --> 01:05.148\n這下不只是國家照顧不到公務人員,我想連現任的公務人員也都連帶被拖累,甚至對於年度總預算的編列也出現很大的衝擊。我想在改革下,財政的效益當然是顯而易見。\n\n01:06.770 --> 01:10.315\n2016到2023軍公教人員節省的經費全部役注在退輔基金高達2774億另外我們有撥補294億役注專戶薪資所造成的缺口\n\n01:21.690 --> 01:22.471\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具«公務人員退休資遣\n\n01:40.774 --> 02:10.135\n很明顯啦就想要進一步來拖垮國家的財政我覺得是一個相當不負責任的修法那我想既然國家要對公務人員來照顧那這個修法的方向顯然一定不是全序部所贊同的所以要請教部長全序部站在照顧公務人員的立場是不是可以說明一下停止退休所的替代率在逐年降低是不是會影響全體公務人員的權益\n\n02:10.595 --> 02:11.476\n財務的永續經營會有很大的影響\n\n02:35.534 --> 02:55.181\n所以其實我們有關當年的年金改革修法司法院也曾做出憲法解釋肯認修法的核限性那若依據釋字第782號的解釋當年備受國民黨質疑的所謂的法律不溯及寄往原則信賴保護原則以及比例原則\n\n02:56.201 --> 03:13.949\n年金改革修法完全合憲。」從這個釋字也可以看出大法官的態度就是肯定年金改革的合憲以及它的必要所以我想這次的修法將可能打翻過去我們在改革上所作努力特別是影響國家財政的穩健所以之前前副總統陳建仁為了這個\n\n03:22.393 --> 03:24.235\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n\n03:45.819 --> 04:10.749\n可是我們看到這次的修法不但有可能將打破這項的保障那有可能在拖累我們下的世代所以我想要請教部長就在釋字第782號解釋肯認當年修法合憲的結果這個請我一下你怎麼來看就是這一次違反世代正義修法的合憲性\n\n04:12.844 --> 04:39.254\n我想當初年改已經經過大法官會議的解釋所謂的改革措施基本上都是具有合憲性包括性愛保護我想那是一個最大一個大家很概念也因為他要創造更大的公共利益社會利益都認為合憲那如果這一次有一些提案說想要再重新討論我想是立法委員的執掌我們是尊重但是建議這個應該叫再尋求社會的多次的共識來一起討論我想會是比較\n\n04:40.054 --> 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«公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":100.774,"end":130.135,"text":"很明顯啦就想要進一步來拖垮國家的財政我覺得是一個相當不負責任的修法那我想既然國家要對公務人員來照顧那這個修法的方向顯然一定不是全序部所贊同的所以要請教部長全序部站在照顧公務人員的立場是不是可以說明一下停止退休所的替代率在逐年降低是不是會影響全體公務人員的權益"},{"start":130.595,"end":131.476,"text":"財務的永續經營會有很大的影響"},{"start":155.534,"end":175.181,"text":"所以其實我們有關當年的年金改革修法司法院也曾做出憲法解釋肯認修法的核限性那若依據釋字第782號的解釋當年備受國民黨質疑的所謂的法律不溯及寄往原則信賴保護原則以及比例原則"},{"start":176.201,"end":193.949,"text":"年金改革修法完全合憲。」從這個釋字也可以看出大法官的態度就是肯定年金改革的合憲以及它的必要所以我想這次的修法將可能打翻過去我們在改革上所作努力特別是影響國家財政的穩健所以之前前副總統陳建仁為了這個"},{"start":202.393,"end":204.235,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":225.819,"end":250.749,"text":"可是我們看到這次的修法不但有可能將打破這項的保障那有可能在拖累我們下的世代所以我想要請教部長就在釋字第782號解釋肯認當年修法合憲的結果這個請我一下你怎麼來看就是這一次違反世代正義修法的合憲性"},{"start":252.844,"end":279.254,"text":"我想當初年改已經經過大法官會議的解釋所謂的改革措施基本上都是具有合憲性包括性愛保護我想那是一個最大一個大家很概念也因為他要創造更大的公共利益社會利益都認為合憲那如果這一次有一些提案說想要再重新討論我想是立法委員的執掌我們是尊重但是建議這個應該叫再尋求社會的多次的共識來一起討論我想會是比較"},{"start":280.054,"end":281.576,"text":"撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案案"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":633,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（11時52分）謝謝主席，有請銓敘部施部長。"],["主席：麻煩施部長。"],["施部長能傑：委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：部長好。過去我們為了顧及世代正義，也兼顧年金制度的合理化、健全化、永續化，總統府成立國家年金改革委員會，在縝密的討論跟考量下，在2018年修正實施至今，如果當初沒有推行這個改革，根據精算結果，退撫基金將提前在2030年破產，這下不只國家照顧不到公務人員，我想連現任公務人員也連帶會被拖累，甚至對於年度總預算的編列也會出現很大的衝擊。","在年金改革下，財政效益當然是顯而易見，2016年到2023年，軍公教人員節省的經費全部挹注在退撫基金高達2,774億，另外我們也撥補294億挹注專戶新制所造成的缺口，如果修法提前停止替代率再逐年調降，退撫基金再幾年下來，將減少挹注約2,800億，隨著退撫基金可運用的投資金額減少，投資的收益也會隨之遞減，這些修法版本很明顯就是想進一步拖垮國家財政，我覺得是一個相當不負責任的修法。既然國家要照顧公務人員，那這個修法的方向顯然一定不是銓敘部所贊同的，所以要請教部長，銓敘部站在照顧公務人員立場，一旦停止退休所得替代率再逐年降低，是不是會影響全體公務人員權益？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，確實是，因為委員剛剛所提出的數字，也都是我們所估算的數字，所以確實會讓基金大概提早4到5年破產，而這個基金支付的對象，包括現職還沒有退休的，還有已退休的公務人員，所以這是大家要一起共同維護的基金，就財務永續經營來講，會有很大的影響。"],["林委員宜瑾：是。當年的年金改革修法，司法院也曾作出憲法解釋，肯認修法的合憲性，依據釋字第782號解釋，當年備受國民黨質疑的所謂法律不溯及既往原則、信賴保護原則以及比例原則，年金改革的修法是完全合憲，從這個釋字也可以看出大法官的態度，就是肯定年金改革的合憲性及必要性，而這次的修法，我想將可能打翻過去我們在改革上所做的努力，特別是影響到國家財政的穩健。","前副總統陳建仁之前作為國家年金改革委員會召集人，曾經指出，這項憲法解釋的結論代表全國所有現職跟已退休軍公教人員，大家不用擔心退撫基金會有破產危機，可以有穩定的退休生活保障，讓世世代代領得到、長長久久領到老。可是我們看到這次的修法，不但有可能打破這項保障，也有可能再拖累我們下個世代。請教部長，在釋字第782號解釋肯認當年修法合憲的結果下，你怎麼看這一次違反世代正義修法的合憲性？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，當初年改已經經過大法官會議解釋，所有的改革措施基本上都具有合憲性，包括信賴保護，我想那是一個大家最大的……也因為要創造更大的公共利益、社會利益，所以都認為合憲。這一次有一些提案是想要再重新討論，我想這是立法委員的職掌，我們表示尊重，但也建議應該再尋求社會更多的共識，大家一起來討論，這樣會是比較穩當的作法。"],["林委員宜瑾：是，好，謝謝部長。最後我想呼籲在野黨，為了讓退撫基金的財務可以永續，而且也回應社會世代正義的要求，影響國家財務健全的修法，真的是萬萬不可行，也期待站在永續照顧公務人員的角度來思考，停止這次的修法審查，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝林委員。","接下來請陳俊宇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","賴士葆","翁曉玲","張嘉郡","羅智強","黃建賓","林思銘","張智倫","黃健豪","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","王義川","李彥秀","吳沛憶","沈伯洋","林宜瑾","陳俊宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","林德福","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","李坤城","林楚茵","張雅琳","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳素月","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳秉叡","許智傑","陳培瑜","郭國文"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)\n委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員張嘉\n郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員賴士葆等26人\n擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公\n務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員邱鎮\n軍等25 人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、( 八) 國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}}