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{\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 376.155, \"end\": 376.415, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 376.415, \"end\": 377.256, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 377.256, \"end\": 377.636, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"替\", \"start\": 377.636, \"end\": 377.776, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"代\", \"start\": 377.776, \"end\": 377.976, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"率\", \"start\": 377.976, \"end\": 378.116, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 378.116, \"end\": 378.136, \"score\": 0.682}]}, {\"start\": 378.396, \"end\": 396.417, \"text\": \"我想即使名目上維持在60跟OECD國家的平均值事實上都還是高一點更何況名目上60%實質上並不是60%比其他國家還高對都比其他國家還高那如果我們的名目把它轉成台灣的實質的話大概其實是在70左右70左右好\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 378.396, \"end\": 378.556, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 378.556, \"end\": 379.017, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"即\", \"start\": 379.017, \"end\": 379.297, 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618.572, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 618.572, \"end\": 618.592, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,429 --> 00:00:26,342\n陳俊宇委員發言好謝謝主席那各位我們今天列席的各單位的首長還有我們媒體先進今天在場的各位好朋友大家早那我們有請我們司部長麻煩部長\n\n2\n00:00:30,949 --> 00:00:50,094\n委員吳安今天我們就這個22個版本委員所提出的部分對於公務人員退撫法及任用法進行這個並案審查公務人員為我們國家很重要的一個服務的人群政府對於限職的這個退休人員的待遇都應該橫頻的兼顧\n\n3\n00:00:52,895 --> 00:01:07,024\n公務人員退休相關撫卹制度的穩健則是橫跨歷代政府希望完成的相關改革。過去我們的退休基金曾經因為根本性的問題而面臨即將破產的危機。\n\n4\n00:01:09,125 --> 00:01:35,651\n在馬政府的時期也曾經提出要推動年金改革不過最後未能完成這個修法直到2016年2016年的這個蔡政府上任之後才開始著手推動年金改革的重大政策透過制度的變革來解決這個未月退休金起資年齡偏低所得替代率偏高等問題當時部長您也在這個人事總署服務對那\n\n5\n00:01:38,072 --> 00:01:56,811\n充分參與到推動年金改革的這個方案的整個過程。提案的委員現在所提出的這個修法主張和理由相信部長您應該感到非常的熟悉。那我想先就教部長您認為2018年以來現行的這一套制度實施的這個成效為何?\n\n6\n00:01:57,571 --> 00:02:10,888\n我想跟委員報告他對整個基金的財務健全來講真的是有很大的幫忙因為他達成了至少牟利達成當初的一個方向希望能夠延後一個世代捏\n\n7\n00:02:11,877 --> 00:02:13,598\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n\n8\n00:02:33,715 --> 00:02:34,555\n實施改革的必要性\n\n9\n00:03:00,889 --> 00:03:01,930\n我個人是主張\n\n10\n00:03:20,465 --> 00:03:45,680\n還是繼續讓他走完這個改革的方式因為到113年以後大概就停止這個調降所的替代率那大概在那個部分未來我們的財務就以這個估算來講是真的可以比較穩健的達到140年好那我們這次的這個修法有一個重點是要提前停止這個退休所的替代率再繼續逐年遞減就剛剛部長您說這個到118年才會停止\n\n11\n00:03:50,143 --> 00:04:03,991\n那當年這個年金改革所提出的這個10年緩降的措施應當是為了要減輕衝擊的一個力道那透過橫頻考量來作為制度的調整舒緩退休所得替代率偏高所造成的相關問題\n\n12\n00:04:05,851 --> 00:04:20,827\n如果即刻停止這個退休所得替代率這個降低基金是不是會又面臨再一次破產的一個危機我只跟委員包我們估算大概如果我們真的就停止的話那未來大概我們會減少2800億的這個億注\n\n13\n00:04:24,150 --> 00:04:24,550\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n14\n00:04:46,058 --> 00:05:03,069\n也有可能會衝擊到國家整體財政和相關的預算所以政府應當讓年金制度能夠朝向合理化健全化還有永續化的這個方向來發展那我還是要請教部長就是說未來我們應該要如何來達成基金財務能夠永續的一個目標\n\n15\n00:05:05,290 --> 00:05:21,190\n我想除了繼續讓基金改革措施按照法律走以外當然我們也會來努力做基金的財務投資能夠讓它增加投資效益我想這方面都是我們一起共同來努力增加投資的一個效益\n\n16\n00:05:23,512 --> 00:05:51,225\n那我們在這一次的這個修法當中有很大的程度還是聚焦在退休所得替代率的一個上限但我們站在這個照顧退休者的這個角度來看是不是應該要著重於實際領導的這個金額尤其是我們看到這一次全區區域部所提出的相關付表顯示我們目前的這種平均月退休金大部分都在五萬塊以上是否能夠維持基本的一個生活需求我想因人而異\n\n17\n00:05:52,205 --> 00:06:18,136\n而且現職的這個人員待遇之間他們橫平性也能夠再進行相關的討論我想請教部長是若我們依照現行的這個制度持續來調整退休所得替代率會不會降到比其他的國家還低還是說我們因為計算的方式不同這個名目上的這個60%已經沒有反應實質的這個替代率了\n\n18\n00:06:18,396 --> 00:06:36,417\n我想即使名目上維持在60跟OECD國家的平均值事實上都還是高一點更何況名目上60%實質上並不是60%比其他國家還高對都比其他國家還高那如果我們的名目把它轉成台灣的實質的話大概其實是在70左右70左右好\n\n19\n00:06:38,683 --> 00:07:03,964\n那我們這個物價通膨的這個因素確實也是存在這也是一些退休人員所擔心的那短期物價的這個波動也會影響到民生的這個經濟應該要有穩健合理的一個調整機制加以保障維持退休所得的實質購買力那全序部目前是透過什麼樣的機制來減少物價通膨對退休人員生活的一個衝擊\n\n20\n00:07:04,825 --> 00:07:19,704\n跟委員報告其實這是我們現在都是根據法律明定如果說CPI呢達到累計達到5%我們就應該要檢討所以過去這一段年改以後事實上累計調整了對退休人員的這個退休所得已經累計調整6%\n\n21\n00:07:21,306 --> 00:07:23,447\n條文修正草案．立法院第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議\n\n22\n00:07:39,240 --> 00:08:06,047\n從先前我們跟考試院也探討過現況的一些情形公部門的人力證面臨一個非常大的困境不但高普考的報考率十年來對抗公部門離職率和流動率也都相對的在提升我想請教部長改制會對現職的人員和新進人員造成什麼樣的影響\n\n23\n00:08:08,100 --> 00:08:09,520\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n24\n00:08:22,688 --> 00:08:52,140\n就是純粹就退休金來講對新進的就不會受影響因為它是一個實質專屋制好那我們大家都知道啦下一個世代正面臨這個少子化那以及這個撫養比這個提撫養比的這個提高的挑戰尤其在明年台灣即將進入超高齡的一個社會那年輕人肩負的這個壓力不斷上升那會造成退伏基金不幸的這個提前破產該如何來補償這個權益受損的這些青年世代\n\n25\n00:08:53,777 --> 00:09:21,702\n所以我想還是跟委員報告我們全序部的職責就是無論如何要讓這個基金能夠財務能夠永續讓現在適用這個基金的現職人員他能夠以後退休的時候能夠有領得到我想這是我們的責任所以我們對於呢任何檢討的提案都認為應該要重視這個對財務基金的衝擊當然還有社會的一個不同聲音的一個討論\n\n26\n00:09:23,542 --> 00:09:42,530\n那我想部長今天一個早上到現在我們也非常的清楚維持現行的制度會是相對穩健、橫貧的一個做法那我們要保障公務人員權益的這個同時讓年金制度能夠永續不破產是我們共同的一個目標\n\n27\n00:09:43,590 --> 00:10:12,387\n但是也需要和社會來持續的這個溝通尋求共識那剛剛主席也才是就是我們後續可能就是對於這個部分會來舉辦這個公聽會那以慎重的這種態度來討論年金改革持續朝向這個一個世代財務穩健的一個目標來發展讓年金破產的這個危機不再發生那我相信這個領得到持續領而且領到老有保障\n\n28\n00:10:13,327 --> 00:10:18,592\n這個一定是對我們軍公教各階層所有民眾所期待的一個目標我希望我們這個相關部會能夠審慎的來處理這個這個案件好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n429\t26342\t陳俊宇委員發言好謝謝主席那各位我們今天列席的各單位的首長還有我們媒體先進今天在場的各位好朋友大家早那我們有請我們司部長麻煩部長\n30949\t50094\t委員吳安今天我們就這個22個版本委員所提出的部分對於公務人員退撫法及任用法進行這個並案審查公務人員為我們國家很重要的一個服務的人群政府對於限職的這個退休人員的待遇都應該橫頻的兼顧\n52895\t67024\t公務人員退休相關撫卹制度的穩健則是橫跨歷代政府希望完成的相關改革。過去我們的退休基金曾經因為根本性的問題而面臨即將破產的危機。\n69125\t95651\t在馬政府的時期也曾經提出要推動年金改革不過最後未能完成這個修法直到2016年2016年的這個蔡政府上任之後才開始著手推動年金改革的重大政策透過制度的變革來解決這個未月退休金起資年齡偏低所得替代率偏高等問題當時部長您也在這個人事總署服務對那\n98072\t116811\t充分參與到推動年金改革的這個方案的整個過程。提案的委員現在所提出的這個修法主張和理由相信部長您應該感到非常的熟悉。那我想先就教部長您認為2018年以來現行的這一套制度實施的這個成效為何?\n117571\t130888\t我想跟委員報告他對整個基金的財務健全來講真的是有很大的幫忙因為他達成了至少牟利達成當初的一個方向希望能夠延後一個世代捏\n131877\t133598\t撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n153715\t154555\t實施改革的必要性\n180889\t181930\t我個人是主張\n200465\t225680\t還是繼續讓他走完這個改革的方式因為到113年以後大概就停止這個調降所的替代率那大概在那個部分未來我們的財務就以這個估算來講是真的可以比較穩健的達到140年好那我們這次的這個修法有一個重點是要提前停止這個退休所的替代率再繼續逐年遞減就剛剛部長您說這個到118年才會停止\n230143\t243991\t那當年這個年金改革所提出的這個10年緩降的措施應當是為了要減輕衝擊的一個力道那透過橫頻考量來作為制度的調整舒緩退休所得替代率偏高所造成的相關問題\n245851\t260827\t如果即刻停止這個退休所得替代率這個降低基金是不是會又面臨再一次破產的一個危機我只跟委員包我們估算大概如果我們真的就停止的話那未來大概我們會減少2800億的這個億注\n264150\t264550\t三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n286058\t303069\t也有可能會衝擊到國家整體財政和相關的預算所以政府應當讓年金制度能夠朝向合理化健全化還有永續化的這個方向來發展那我還是要請教部長就是說未來我們應該要如何來達成基金財務能夠永續的一個目標\n305290\t321190\t我想除了繼續讓基金改革措施按照法律走以外當然我們也會來努力做基金的財務投資能夠讓它增加投資效益我想這方面都是我們一起共同來努力增加投資的一個效益\n323512\t351225\t那我們在這一次的這個修法當中有很大的程度還是聚焦在退休所得替代率的一個上限但我們站在這個照顧退休者的這個角度來看是不是應該要著重於實際領導的這個金額尤其是我們看到這一次全區區域部所提出的相關付表顯示我們目前的這種平均月退休金大部分都在五萬塊以上是否能夠維持基本的一個生活需求我想因人而異\n352205\t378136\t而且現職的這個人員待遇之間他們橫平性也能夠再進行相關的討論我想請教部長是若我們依照現行的這個制度持續來調整退休所得替代率會不會降到比其他的國家還低還是說我們因為計算的方式不同這個名目上的這個60%已經沒有反應實質的這個替代率了\n378396\t396417\t我想即使名目上維持在60跟OECD國家的平均值事實上都還是高一點更何況名目上60%實質上並不是60%比其他國家還高對都比其他國家還高那如果我們的名目把它轉成台灣的實質的話大概其實是在70左右70左右好\n398683\t423964\t那我們這個物價通膨的這個因素確實也是存在這也是一些退休人員所擔心的那短期物價的這個波動也會影響到民生的這個經濟應該要有穩健合理的一個調整機制加以保障維持退休所得的實質購買力那全序部目前是透過什麼樣的機制來減少物價通膨對退休人員生活的一個衝擊\n424825\t439704\t跟委員報告其實這是我們現在都是根據法律明定如果說CPI呢達到累計達到5%我們就應該要檢討所以過去這一段年改以後事實上累計調整了對退休人員的這個退休所得已經累計調整6%\n441306\t443447\t條文修正草案．立法院第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議\n459240\t486047\t從先前我們跟考試院也探討過現況的一些情形公部門的人力證面臨一個非常大的困境不但高普考的報考率十年來對抗公部門離職率和流動率也都相對的在提升我想請教部長改制會對現職的人員和新進人員造成什麼樣的影響\n488100\t489520\t三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n502688\t532140\t就是純粹就退休金來講對新進的就不會受影響因為它是一個實質專屋制好那我們大家都知道啦下一個世代正面臨這個少子化那以及這個撫養比這個提撫養比的這個提高的挑戰尤其在明年台灣即將進入超高齡的一個社會那年輕人肩負的這個壓力不斷上升那會造成退伏基金不幸的這個提前破產該如何來補償這個權益受損的這些青年世代\n533777\t561702\t所以我想還是跟委員報告我們全序部的職責就是無論如何要讓這個基金能夠財務能夠永續讓現在適用這個基金的現職人員他能夠以後退休的時候能夠有領得到我想這是我們的責任所以我們對於呢任何檢討的提案都認為應該要重視這個對財務基金的衝擊當然還有社會的一個不同聲音的一個討論\n563542\t582530\t那我想部長今天一個早上到現在我們也非常的清楚維持現行的制度會是相對穩健、橫貧的一個做法那我們要保障公務人員權益的這個同時讓年金制度能夠永續不破產是我們共同的一個目標\n583590\t612387\t但是也需要和社會來持續的這個溝通尋求共識那剛剛主席也才是就是我們後續可能就是對於這個部分會來舉辦這個公聽會那以慎重的這種態度來討論年金改革持續朝向這個一個世代財務穩健的一個目標來發展讓年金破產的這個危機不再發生那我相信這個領得到持續領而且領到老有保障\n613327\t618592\t這個一定是對我們軍公教各階層所有民眾所期待的一個目標我希望我們這個相關部會能夠審慎的來處理這個這個案件好謝謝\n","txt":"陳俊宇委員發言好謝謝主席那各位我們今天列席的各單位的首長還有我們媒體先進今天在場的各位好朋友大家早那我們有請我們司部長麻煩部長\n委員吳安今天我們就這個22個版本委員所提出的部分對於公務人員退撫法及任用法進行這個並案審查公務人員為我們國家很重要的一個服務的人群政府對於限職的這個退休人員的待遇都應該橫頻的兼顧\n公務人員退休相關撫卹制度的穩健則是橫跨歷代政府希望完成的相關改革。過去我們的退休基金曾經因為根本性的問題而面臨即將破產的危機。\n在馬政府的時期也曾經提出要推動年金改革不過最後未能完成這個修法直到2016年2016年的這個蔡政府上任之後才開始著手推動年金改革的重大政策透過制度的變革來解決這個未月退休金起資年齡偏低所得替代率偏高等問題當時部長您也在這個人事總署服務對那\n充分參與到推動年金改革的這個方案的整個過程。提案的委員現在所提出的這個修法主張和理由相信部長您應該感到非常的熟悉。那我想先就教部長您認為2018年以來現行的這一套制度實施的這個成效為何?\n我想跟委員報告他對整個基金的財務健全來講真的是有很大的幫忙因為他達成了至少牟利達成當初的一個方向希望能夠延後一個世代捏\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n實施改革的必要性\n我個人是主張\n還是繼續讓他走完這個改革的方式因為到113年以後大概就停止這個調降所的替代率那大概在那個部分未來我們的財務就以這個估算來講是真的可以比較穩健的達到140年好那我們這次的這個修法有一個重點是要提前停止這個退休所的替代率再繼續逐年遞減就剛剛部長您說這個到118年才會停止\n那當年這個年金改革所提出的這個10年緩降的措施應當是為了要減輕衝擊的一個力道那透過橫頻考量來作為制度的調整舒緩退休所得替代率偏高所造成的相關問題\n如果即刻停止這個退休所得替代率這個降低基金是不是會又面臨再一次破產的一個危機我只跟委員包我們估算大概如果我們真的就停止的話那未來大概我們會減少2800億的這個億注\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n也有可能會衝擊到國家整體財政和相關的預算所以政府應當讓年金制度能夠朝向合理化健全化還有永續化的這個方向來發展那我還是要請教部長就是說未來我們應該要如何來達成基金財務能夠永續的一個目標\n我想除了繼續讓基金改革措施按照法律走以外當然我們也會來努力做基金的財務投資能夠讓它增加投資效益我想這方面都是我們一起共同來努力增加投資的一個效益\n那我們在這一次的這個修法當中有很大的程度還是聚焦在退休所得替代率的一個上限但我們站在這個照顧退休者的這個角度來看是不是應該要著重於實際領導的這個金額尤其是我們看到這一次全區區域部所提出的相關付表顯示我們目前的這種平均月退休金大部分都在五萬塊以上是否能夠維持基本的一個生活需求我想因人而異\n而且現職的這個人員待遇之間他們橫平性也能夠再進行相關的討論我想請教部長是若我們依照現行的這個制度持續來調整退休所得替代率會不會降到比其他的國家還低還是說我們因為計算的方式不同這個名目上的這個60%已經沒有反應實質的這個替代率了\n我想即使名目上維持在60跟OECD國家的平均值事實上都還是高一點更何況名目上60%實質上並不是60%比其他國家還高對都比其他國家還高那如果我們的名目把它轉成台灣的實質的話大概其實是在70左右70左右好\n那我們這個物價通膨的這個因素確實也是存在這也是一些退休人員所擔心的那短期物價的這個波動也會影響到民生的這個經濟應該要有穩健合理的一個調整機制加以保障維持退休所得的實質購買力那全序部目前是透過什麼樣的機制來減少物價通膨對退休人員生活的一個衝擊\n跟委員報告其實這是我們現在都是根據法律明定如果說CPI呢達到累計達到5%我們就應該要檢討所以過去這一段年改以後事實上累計調整了對退休人員的這個退休所得已經累計調整6%\n條文修正草案．立法院第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議\n從先前我們跟考試院也探討過現況的一些情形公部門的人力證面臨一個非常大的困境不但高普考的報考率十年來對抗公部門離職率和流動率也都相對的在提升我想請教部長改制會對現職的人員和新進人員造成什麼樣的影響\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n就是純粹就退休金來講對新進的就不會受影響因為它是一個實質專屋制好那我們大家都知道啦下一個世代正面臨這個少子化那以及這個撫養比這個提撫養比的這個提高的挑戰尤其在明年台灣即將進入超高齡的一個社會那年輕人肩負的這個壓力不斷上升那會造成退伏基金不幸的這個提前破產該如何來補償這個權益受損的這些青年世代\n所以我想還是跟委員報告我們全序部的職責就是無論如何要讓這個基金能夠財務能夠永續讓現在適用這個基金的現職人員他能夠以後退休的時候能夠有領得到我想這是我們的責任所以我們對於呢任何檢討的提案都認為應該要重視這個對財務基金的衝擊當然還有社會的一個不同聲音的一個討論\n那我想部長今天一個早上到現在我們也非常的清楚維持現行的制度會是相對穩健、橫貧的一個做法那我們要保障公務人員權益的這個同時讓年金制度能夠永續不破產是我們共同的一個目標\n但是也需要和社會來持續的這個溝通尋求共識那剛剛主席也才是就是我們後續可能就是對於這個部分會來舉辦這個公聽會那以慎重的這種態度來討論年金改革持續朝向這個一個世代財務穩健的一個目標來發展讓年金破產的這個危機不再發生那我相信這個領得到持續領而且領到老有保障\n這個一定是對我們軍公教各階層所有民眾所期待的一個目標我希望我們這個相關部會能夠審慎的來處理這個這個案件好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.429 --> 00:26.342\n陳俊宇委員發言好謝謝主席那各位我們今天列席的各單位的首長還有我們媒體先進今天在場的各位好朋友大家早那我們有請我們司部長麻煩部長\n\n00:30.949 --> 00:50.094\n委員吳安今天我們就這個22個版本委員所提出的部分對於公務人員退撫法及任用法進行這個並案審查公務人員為我們國家很重要的一個服務的人群政府對於限職的這個退休人員的待遇都應該橫頻的兼顧\n\n00:52.895 --> 01:07.024\n公務人員退休相關撫卹制度的穩健則是橫跨歷代政府希望完成的相關改革。過去我們的退休基金曾經因為根本性的問題而面臨即將破產的危機。\n\n01:09.125 --> 01:35.651\n在馬政府的時期也曾經提出要推動年金改革不過最後未能完成這個修法直到2016年2016年的這個蔡政府上任之後才開始著手推動年金改革的重大政策透過制度的變革來解決這個未月退休金起資年齡偏低所得替代率偏高等問題當時部長您也在這個人事總署服務對那\n\n01:38.072 --> 01:56.811\n充分參與到推動年金改革的這個方案的整個過程。提案的委員現在所提出的這個修法主張和理由相信部長您應該感到非常的熟悉。那我想先就教部長您認為2018年以來現行的這一套制度實施的這個成效為何?\n\n01:57.571 --> 02:10.888\n我想跟委員報告他對整個基金的財務健全來講真的是有很大的幫忙因為他達成了至少牟利達成當初的一個方向希望能夠延後一個世代捏\n\n02:11.877 --> 02:13.598\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．\n\n02:33.715 --> 02:34.555\n實施改革的必要性\n\n03:00.889 --> 03:01.930\n我個人是主張\n\n03:20.465 --> 03:45.680\n還是繼續讓他走完這個改革的方式因為到113年以後大概就停止這個調降所的替代率那大概在那個部分未來我們的財務就以這個估算來講是真的可以比較穩健的達到140年好那我們這次的這個修法有一個重點是要提前停止這個退休所的替代率再繼續逐年遞減就剛剛部長您說這個到118年才會停止\n\n03:50.143 --> 04:03.991\n那當年這個年金改革所提出的這個10年緩降的措施應當是為了要減輕衝擊的一個力道那透過橫頻考量來作為制度的調整舒緩退休所得替代率偏高所造成的相關問題\n\n04:05.851 --> 04:20.827\n如果即刻停止這個退休所得替代率這個降低基金是不是會又面臨再一次破產的一個危機我只跟委員包我們估算大概如果我們真的就停止的話那未來大概我們會減少2800億的這個億注\n\n04:24.150 --> 04:24.550\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n04:46.058 --> 05:03.069\n也有可能會衝擊到國家整體財政和相關的預算所以政府應當讓年金制度能夠朝向合理化健全化還有永續化的這個方向來發展那我還是要請教部長就是說未來我們應該要如何來達成基金財務能夠永續的一個目標\n\n05:05.290 --> 05:21.190\n我想除了繼續讓基金改革措施按照法律走以外當然我們也會來努力做基金的財務投資能夠讓它增加投資效益我想這方面都是我們一起共同來努力增加投資的一個效益\n\n05:23.512 --> 05:51.225\n那我們在這一次的這個修法當中有很大的程度還是聚焦在退休所得替代率的一個上限但我們站在這個照顧退休者的這個角度來看是不是應該要著重於實際領導的這個金額尤其是我們看到這一次全區區域部所提出的相關付表顯示我們目前的這種平均月退休金大部分都在五萬塊以上是否能夠維持基本的一個生活需求我想因人而異\n\n05:52.205 --> 06:18.136\n而且現職的這個人員待遇之間他們橫平性也能夠再進行相關的討論我想請教部長是若我們依照現行的這個制度持續來調整退休所得替代率會不會降到比其他的國家還低還是說我們因為計算的方式不同這個名目上的這個60%已經沒有反應實質的這個替代率了\n\n06:18.396 --> 06:36.417\n我想即使名目上維持在60跟OECD國家的平均值事實上都還是高一點更何況名目上60%實質上並不是60%比其他國家還高對都比其他國家還高那如果我們的名目把它轉成台灣的實質的話大概其實是在70左右70左右好\n\n06:38.683 --> 07:03.964\n那我們這個物價通膨的這個因素確實也是存在這也是一些退休人員所擔心的那短期物價的這個波動也會影響到民生的這個經濟應該要有穩健合理的一個調整機制加以保障維持退休所得的實質購買力那全序部目前是透過什麼樣的機制來減少物價通膨對退休人員生活的一個衝擊\n\n07:04.825 --> 07:19.704\n跟委員報告其實這是我們現在都是根據法律明定如果說CPI呢達到累計達到5%我們就應該要檢討所以過去這一段年改以後事實上累計調整了對退休人員的這個退休所得已經累計調整6%\n\n07:21.306 --> 07:23.447\n條文修正草案．立法院第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議\n\n07:39.240 --> 08:06.047\n從先前我們跟考試院也探討過現況的一些情形公部門的人力證面臨一個非常大的困境不但高普考的報考率十年來對抗公部門離職率和流動率也都相對的在提升我想請教部長改制會對現職的人員和新進人員造成什麼樣的影響\n\n08:08.100 --> 08:09.520\n三）委員張智倫等16人擬具\n\n08:22.688 --> 08:52.140\n就是純粹就退休金來講對新進的就不會受影響因為它是一個實質專屋制好那我們大家都知道啦下一個世代正面臨這個少子化那以及這個撫養比這個提撫養比的這個提高的挑戰尤其在明年台灣即將進入超高齡的一個社會那年輕人肩負的這個壓力不斷上升那會造成退伏基金不幸的這個提前破產該如何來補償這個權益受損的這些青年世代\n\n08:53.777 --> 09:21.702\n所以我想還是跟委員報告我們全序部的職責就是無論如何要讓這個基金能夠財務能夠永續讓現在適用這個基金的現職人員他能夠以後退休的時候能夠有領得到我想這是我們的責任所以我們對於呢任何檢討的提案都認為應該要重視這個對財務基金的衝擊當然還有社會的一個不同聲音的一個討論\n\n09:23.542 --> 09:42.530\n那我想部長今天一個早上到現在我們也非常的清楚維持現行的制度會是相對穩健、橫貧的一個做法那我們要保障公務人員權益的這個同時讓年金制度能夠永續不破產是我們共同的一個目標\n\n09:43.590 --> 10:12.387\n但是也需要和社會來持續的這個溝通尋求共識那剛剛主席也才是就是我們後續可能就是對於這個部分會來舉辦這個公聽會那以慎重的這種態度來討論年金改革持續朝向這個一個世代財務穩健的一個目標來發展讓年金破產的這個危機不再發生那我相信這個領得到持續領而且領到老有保障\n\n10:13.327 --> 10:18.592\n這個一定是對我們軍公教各階層所有民眾所期待的一個目標我希望我們這個相關部會能夠審慎的來處理這個這個案件好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.429,"end":26.342,"text":"陳俊宇委員發言好謝謝主席那各位我們今天列席的各單位的首長還有我們媒體先進今天在場的各位好朋友大家早那我們有請我們司部長麻煩部長"},{"start":30.949,"end":50.094,"text":"委員吳安今天我們就這個22個版本委員所提出的部分對於公務人員退撫法及任用法進行這個並案審查公務人員為我們國家很重要的一個服務的人群政府對於限職的這個退休人員的待遇都應該橫頻的兼顧"},{"start":52.895,"end":67.024,"text":"公務人員退休相關撫卹制度的穩健則是橫跨歷代政府希望完成的相關改革。過去我們的退休基金曾經因為根本性的問題而面臨即將破產的危機。"},{"start":69.125,"end":95.651,"text":"在馬政府的時期也曾經提出要推動年金改革不過最後未能完成這個修法直到2016年2016年的這個蔡政府上任之後才開始著手推動年金改革的重大政策透過制度的變革來解決這個未月退休金起資年齡偏低所得替代率偏高等問題當時部長您也在這個人事總署服務對那"},{"start":98.072,"end":116.811,"text":"充分參與到推動年金改革的這個方案的整個過程。提案的委員現在所提出的這個修法主張和理由相信部長您應該感到非常的熟悉。那我想先就教部長您認為2018年以來現行的這一套制度實施的這個成效為何?"},{"start":117.571,"end":130.888,"text":"我想跟委員報告他對整個基金的財務健全來講真的是有很大的幫忙因為他達成了至少牟利達成當初的一個方向希望能夠延後一個世代捏"},{"start":131.877,"end":133.598,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":153.715,"end":154.555,"text":"實施改革的必要性"},{"start":180.889,"end":181.93,"text":"我個人是主張"},{"start":200.465,"end":225.68,"text":"還是繼續讓他走完這個改革的方式因為到113年以後大概就停止這個調降所的替代率那大概在那個部分未來我們的財務就以這個估算來講是真的可以比較穩健的達到140年好那我們這次的這個修法有一個重點是要提前停止這個退休所的替代率再繼續逐年遞減就剛剛部長您說這個到118年才會停止"},{"start":230.143,"end":243.991,"text":"那當年這個年金改革所提出的這個10年緩降的措施應當是為了要減輕衝擊的一個力道那透過橫頻考量來作為制度的調整舒緩退休所得替代率偏高所造成的相關問題"},{"start":245.851,"end":260.827,"text":"如果即刻停止這個退休所得替代率這個降低基金是不是會又面臨再一次破產的一個危機我只跟委員包我們估算大概如果我們真的就停止的話那未來大概我們會減少2800億的這個億注"},{"start":264.15,"end":264.55,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":286.058,"end":303.069,"text":"也有可能會衝擊到國家整體財政和相關的預算所以政府應當讓年金制度能夠朝向合理化健全化還有永續化的這個方向來發展那我還是要請教部長就是說未來我們應該要如何來達成基金財務能夠永續的一個目標"},{"start":305.29,"end":321.19,"text":"我想除了繼續讓基金改革措施按照法律走以外當然我們也會來努力做基金的財務投資能夠讓它增加投資效益我想這方面都是我們一起共同來努力增加投資的一個效益"},{"start":323.512,"end":351.225,"text":"那我們在這一次的這個修法當中有很大的程度還是聚焦在退休所得替代率的一個上限但我們站在這個照顧退休者的這個角度來看是不是應該要著重於實際領導的這個金額尤其是我們看到這一次全區區域部所提出的相關付表顯示我們目前的這種平均月退休金大部分都在五萬塊以上是否能夠維持基本的一個生活需求我想因人而異"},{"start":352.205,"end":378.136,"text":"而且現職的這個人員待遇之間他們橫平性也能夠再進行相關的討論我想請教部長是若我們依照現行的這個制度持續來調整退休所得替代率會不會降到比其他的國家還低還是說我們因為計算的方式不同這個名目上的這個60%已經沒有反應實質的這個替代率了"},{"start":378.396,"end":396.417,"text":"我想即使名目上維持在60跟OECD國家的平均值事實上都還是高一點更何況名目上60%實質上並不是60%比其他國家還高對都比其他國家還高那如果我們的名目把它轉成台灣的實質的話大概其實是在70左右70左右好"},{"start":398.683,"end":423.964,"text":"那我們這個物價通膨的這個因素確實也是存在這也是一些退休人員所擔心的那短期物價的這個波動也會影響到民生的這個經濟應該要有穩健合理的一個調整機制加以保障維持退休所得的實質購買力那全序部目前是透過什麼樣的機制來減少物價通膨對退休人員生活的一個衝擊"},{"start":424.825,"end":439.704,"text":"跟委員報告其實這是我們現在都是根據法律明定如果說CPI呢達到累計達到5%我們就應該要檢討所以過去這一段年改以後事實上累計調整了對退休人員的這個退休所得已經累計調整6%"},{"start":441.306,"end":443.447,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議"},{"start":459.24,"end":486.047,"text":"從先前我們跟考試院也探討過現況的一些情形公部門的人力證面臨一個非常大的困境不但高普考的報考率十年來對抗公部門離職率和流動率也都相對的在提升我想請教部長改制會對現職的人員和新進人員造成什麼樣的影響"},{"start":488.1,"end":489.52,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":502.688,"end":532.14,"text":"就是純粹就退休金來講對新進的就不會受影響因為它是一個實質專屋制好那我們大家都知道啦下一個世代正面臨這個少子化那以及這個撫養比這個提撫養比的這個提高的挑戰尤其在明年台灣即將進入超高齡的一個社會那年輕人肩負的這個壓力不斷上升那會造成退伏基金不幸的這個提前破產該如何來補償這個權益受損的這些青年世代"},{"start":533.777,"end":561.702,"text":"所以我想還是跟委員報告我們全序部的職責就是無論如何要讓這個基金能夠財務能夠永續讓現在適用這個基金的現職人員他能夠以後退休的時候能夠有領得到我想這是我們的責任所以我們對於呢任何檢討的提案都認為應該要重視這個對財務基金的衝擊當然還有社會的一個不同聲音的一個討論"},{"start":563.542,"end":582.53,"text":"那我想部長今天一個早上到現在我們也非常的清楚維持現行的制度會是相對穩健、橫貧的一個做法那我們要保障公務人員權益的這個同時讓年金制度能夠永續不破產是我們共同的一個目標"},{"start":583.59,"end":612.387,"text":"但是也需要和社會來持續的這個溝通尋求共識那剛剛主席也才是就是我們後續可能就是對於這個部分會來舉辦這個公聽會那以慎重的這種態度來討論年金改革持續朝向這個一個世代財務穩健的一個目標來發展讓年金破產的這個危機不再發生那我相信這個領得到持續領而且領到老有保障"},{"start":613.327,"end":618.592,"text":"這個一定是對我們軍公教各階層所有民眾所期待的一個目標我希望我們這個相關部會能夠審慎的來處理這個這個案件好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":645,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（11時57分）好，謝謝主席。今天列席的各單位首長，還有媒體先進，今天在場的各位好朋友，大家早。我們有請施部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["陳委員俊宇：部長午安。"],["施部長能傑：委員午安。"],["陳委員俊宇：今天我們要針對委員所提出的有關公務人員退休資遣撫卹法及公務人員任用法等22個版本進行併案審查，公務人員是我們國家很重要的一群服務人員，政府對於現職及退休人員的待遇，都應該衡平兼顧，公務人員相關退休撫卹制度的穩健，則是橫跨歷代政府希望完成的相關改革。過去我們的退撫基金曾經因為根本性問題，面臨即將破產的危機，在馬政府時期，曾經提出要推動年金改革，不過最後未能完成相關修法，直到2016年蔡政府上任之後，才開始著手推動年金改革的重大政策，透過制度的變革，解決月退休金起支年齡偏低、所得替代率偏高等問題，當時部長您也在人事總處服務……"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["陳委員俊宇：充分的參與到推動年金改革方案的整個過程，現在提案委員所提出的修法主張和理由，相信部長您應該感到非常熟悉，首先想就教部長，您認為2018年以來，現行的這套制度實施成效為何？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，對整個基金財務健全來講，真的有很大的幫忙，因為它達成了……至少努力達成當初的一個方向，即希望能夠延後一個世代才破產，因為這樣的結果，所以政府挹注了二千七百七十多億，也因為有更多的錢進來，讓我們的年度收支從失衡轉向平衡，因此我們就有更多基金的錢可以進行投資，累積基金淨額。其實我們現在還有2.9兆負債，但是因為這些努力，估算如果可以繼續持續，大概可以維持到1.8兆左右的負債，等於是這中間，我們未來還會繼續再有新的錢進來，我想這是蠻重要的財務上的改善。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，部長您認為，以目前來看，還有沒有再實施改革的必要性？"],["施部長能傑：我覺得從基金要穩健的角度，我還是講，這個基金不是只有已退的人員會使用，還包括現職人員未來要一起使用這個基金。因為目前的狀況其實對財務貢獻是非常非常好，我個人是主張繼續讓它走完改革的方式，因為到118年以後，大概就停止調降所得替代率，在那個部分，未來我們的財務以估算來講，是真的可以比較穩健的達到140年。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我們這次的修法有一個重點，是要提前停止退休所得替代率再繼續逐年遞減，就剛剛部長您說到118年才會停止的。當年年金改革所提出10年緩降的措施，應當是為了要減輕衝擊的力道，透過衡平考量來作為制度的調整，舒緩退休所得替代率偏高所造成的相關問題。如果即刻停止退休所得替代率降低，基金是不是又會面臨再次破產的一個危機？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，我們估算如果真的就停止的話，未來我們大概會減少2,800億的挹注，這個其實對基金來講是很大一個衝擊，會讓基金提早用罄。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，提早停止的話，降低所造成財務的缺口就會跑出來了，而退撫基金的收支失衡持續累積下去，受影響的不單是退撫基金本身，也有可能會衝擊到國家整體財政和相關的預算，所以政府應當讓年金制度能夠朝向合理化、健全化還有永續化的方向來發展。我還是要請教部長，未來我們應該如何來達成基金財務能夠永續的目標？"],["施部長能傑：我想除了繼續讓基金改革措施按照法律走以外，當然我們也會來努力做基金的財務投資，能夠讓它增加投資效益，這方面都是我們一起共同來努力的重點，重點在於增加投資的一個效益。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我們在這次的修法當中，有很大的程度還是聚焦在退休所得替代率的一個上限，但我們站在照顧退休者的角度來看，是不是應該要著重於實際領到的金額？尤其我們看到這次銓敘部所提出的相關附表，顯示我們目前這種平均月退休金，大部分都在5萬塊以上，我想是否能夠維持基本的生活需求，因人而異，而且現職的人員待遇之間，他們衡平性也能夠再進行相關的討論。","我想請教部長，若我們依照現行的制度持續來調整退休所得替代率，會不會降到比其他的國家還低？還是說我們因為計算的方式不同，名目上的60%已經沒有反映實質的替代率了？"],["施部長能傑：我想，即使名目上維持在60%，跟OECD國家的平均值比，事實上都還是高一點，更何況名目上60%，實質上並不是60%。"],["陳委員俊宇：比其他國家還高？"],["施部長能傑：對，都比其他國家還高。如果我們的名目把它轉成實質的話，大概是在70%左右。"],["陳委員俊宇：70%左右，好，但我們物價通膨的因素確實也是存在啦，這也是一些退休人員所擔心的。短期物價的波動，也會影響到民生經濟，應該要有穩健合理的調整機制，加以保障並維持退休所得的實質購買力。銓敘部目前是透過什麼樣的機制，來減少物價通膨對退休人員生活的衝擊？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，其實我們現在都是根據法律明定，如果說CPI累計達到5%，我們就應該要檢討。所以過去這一段年改以後，事實上對退休人員的退休所得已經累計調整6%，當然如果沒有達到5%，我們還有另外一個機制，每4年也應該定期來檢視。其實我們兩次調整6%，第一次的物價指數還沒有達到5%，事實上，那時候是用每4年去調整它。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。先前我們跟考試院也探討過現況，公部門的人力正面臨一個非常大的困境，不但高普考的報考率10年來對砍，公部門離職率和流動率，也都相對的在提升。我想請教部長，改制會對現職的人員和新進人員造成什麼樣的影響？"],["施部長能傑：我們新進人員都已經實施專戶制了，所以專戶制跟我們現在討論這個基金是獨立的，所以對112年新進的人員來講，他們不會受我們今天討論的東西的影響，就是純粹就退休金來講。"],["陳委員俊宇：新進的就不會受影響？"],["施部長能傑：對，因為已經實施專戶制。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我們大家都知道，下一個世代正面臨少子化，以及撫養比提高的挑戰，尤其明年臺灣即將進入超高齡的社會，年輕人肩負的壓力不斷上升，會造成退撫基金不幸的提前破產，該如何來補償權益受損的這些青年世代？"],["施部長能傑：所以，還是跟委員報告，我們銓敘部的職責，就是無論如何要讓這個基金財務能夠永續，讓現在適用這個基金的現職人員，他以後退休的時候能夠領得到，我想這是我們的責任。因此我們對於任何檢討的提案，我都認為應該要重視對財務基金的衝擊，當然還有社會不同聲音的討論。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，部長，今天一個早上到現在，我們也非常的清楚，維持現行的制度會是相對穩健衡平的一個作法，我們要保障公務人員權益的同時，讓年金制度能夠永續不破產，是我們共同的目標，但是也需要和社會來持續的溝通、尋求共識。剛剛主席也裁示，我們後續可能對於這個部分會來舉辦公聽會，以慎重的態度來討論年金改革，持續朝向世代財務穩健的一個目標來發展，讓年金破產的危機不再發生。我相信領得到、持續領，而且領到老、有保障，這個一定是我們軍公教各階層所有民眾所期待的目標，我希望我們相關部會能夠審慎地來處理這個案件。謝謝。"],["施部長能傑：謝謝委員。"],["主席：依照先前宣告，我們現在休息，下午1點繼續開會，謝謝各位。","休息（12時7分）","繼續開會（13時2分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","下面我們請黃國昌委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","賴士葆","翁曉玲","張嘉郡","羅智強","黃建賓","林思銘","張智倫","黃健豪","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","王義川","李彥秀","吳沛憶","沈伯洋","林宜瑾","陳俊宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","林德福","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","李坤城","林楚茵","張雅琳","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳素月","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳秉叡","許智傑","陳培瑜","郭國文"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)\n委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員張嘉\n郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員賴士葆等26人\n擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公\n務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員邱鎮\n軍等25 人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、( 八) 國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}}