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852.405, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 852.405, \"end\": 852.485, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 852.485, \"end\": 852.565, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 852.565, \"end\": 852.585, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:11,094 --> 00:00:23,282\n主席麻煩我們請紅部長跟我們的城市上代理署長還有我們的勞動福祉退休師的謝倩倩市長好有請紅部長代理署長還有市長\n\n2\n00:00:33,786 --> 00:00:38,752\n部長早。想問部長,過年過節送禮是習俗嗎?你過年會送禮嗎?\n\n3\n00:00:44,820 --> 00:01:10,429\n我必要的會但是我知道我很想問的就是說我其實已經有請我的署內的同仁其實告訴大家說要避免那種為了好像向上管理的這種送禮的文化我認為應該盡力的避免是部長11月26號上任就對於勞發署就已經宣布取消送禮文化跟挑戰我們的勞動部\n\n4\n00:01:11,881 --> 00:01:23,687\n內部相互送禮向上管理的那個文觀文化那當然近日外界也不斷質疑就是就業基金的一個用途可是本席瞭解勞動部過往送禮也會使用\n\n5\n00:01:24,631 --> 00:01:46,308\n就安基金其中很大量的數量事實上是用來採購身心障礙者庇護工廠的產品因為我一直很關心我們的身障朋友們他們要在這個庇護工廠工作才有得到自己所需也能夠才可以建構他的未來所以對於身心障礙者庇護性就業\n\n6\n00:01:47,726 --> 00:01:50,870\n公務及基金預算：一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部部長列席報告業務概況．\n\n7\n00:02:07,145 --> 00:02:23,420\n就按基金的支出你怎麼權衡?這兩件事情我們都要兼顧的所以不必要的送禮我們要避免第二個事情是那我們部內接下來如果有採購禮盒的需求的話我已經要指示下去\n\n8\n00:02:24,181 --> 00:02:53,007\n一定是要以庇護工廠的商品為優先那這部分是當然對於勞動部我們所屬的這些庇護工廠其實大力的支持甚至不只是產品的採購或他們商品的採購我們也希望其實怎麼樣來協助他們更大力的做行銷包括有很多他們可能在行銷計畫的界面上面我們怎麼更大力的支持讓這些庇護工廠本身有能力有更多的餘裕然後可以照顧更多我們這裡面需要照顧的一些身心障礙的朋友\n\n9\n00:02:53,567 --> 00:03:11,799\n我覺得這個事情它不是權衡的問題這是我們必須兼顧的事情對謝謝部長因為我真的就是要幫這些身心障礙者朋友講話因為我來自社福那接下來當然你要推動庇護性就業支持庇護工廠一直是\n\n10\n00:03:12,339 --> 00:03:24,324\n我們發展署的施政重點之一可本席發現勞動力發展署身心障礙者就業支援網裡邊對庇護工廠的推廣我們覺得實在是不及格為什麼這樣講只有用一個頁面去推廣庇護工廠的產品資訊而且視覺非常單調連產品的圖片都沒有也看不到價格那看不到價格當然你就沒有辦法讓人家知道說到底我要買的東西所以政府對於推動庇護工廠產品的行銷\n\n11\n00:03:40,715 --> 00:03:43,257\n靠傳統的DM這樣想法會不會太low?\n\n12\n00:03:43,257 --> 00:03:51,585\n所以想問我們的代理署長跟農業部的網頁相比有沒有水準差人家很多的感覺?\n\n13\n00:03:53,038 --> 00:04:18,533\n跟委員報告對不起我沒有看過農業部的相關網站但是從剛剛委員所出示的這個一面確實還有在這個加強經濟的一個空間這個我們會持續來改善希望你們要做因為既然不是只有你們就安基金來做而已那我覺得因為還有外界也希望他們甚至更多政府部門可以來採買我們的身心障礙者譬如工廠所做出來的產品\n\n14\n00:04:19,774 --> 00:04:46,774\n這個跟林委員報告齁這部分我們會來用更不管是用活潑更多元甚至更有效的方式來協助屁股工廠的行銷甚至我自己我都願意來自己親身來做這些相關的工作那這部分我們會非常非常重視那如果林委員這邊有更多的建議希望你也不吝可以提供給我們更多的建議好不好好謝謝部長因為我們覺得讓弱勢者得到就業機會\n\n15\n00:04:48,183 --> 00:04:51,091\n他才能夠去照顧他的家庭或他家庭\n\n16\n00:04:51,547 --> 00:04:53,408\n公務及基金預算：審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管預算：僅\n\n17\n00:05:19,024 --> 00:05:22,706\n販售的網站的期程。我不知道部長同意嗎?\n\n18\n00:05:22,706 --> 00:05:43,238\n我其實是覺得時間可以更短。那太好了。因為這真的是對他們來講是非常重要的。是。那再想問今年7月本院就通過了勞動基準法第54條的修正規定勞工年屆65歲的時候可以跟僱主協商延緩的那個退休\n\n19\n00:05:43,838 --> 00:06:10,488\n那法律公布之後可是勞工普遍有比較高的期待但同時又憂心修法後看得到吃不到所以想問如何有效的透過這樣的協商達到延緩退休的效果更是極為關鍵修法是為了改變現狀不要讓勞工空歡喜一場所以想問那個謝市長還有署長說明一下怎麼樣有效促進協商\n\n20\n00:06:12,056 --> 00:06:38,762\n我來說明一下是感謝委員關心這個議題這也是這次修法之後我們希望讓有意願留在職場上勞工能夠續留職場也讓僱主能夠讓高齡勞工續留職場但是呢剛剛就是委員關心的部分就是因為這是要勞資雙方去協商那我們會嚴定一個相關協商就是勞資雙方協商延後退休年齡的一個指導的原則或指引這個部分\n\n21\n00:06:39,822 --> 00:07:05,046\n可是我們因為擔心為什麼我們辦公室有收到這樣如果經協商延緩退休條件是勞工工時不變工作不變可是工資下降怎麼辦我們會在協商指引上面明定如果他延商就是延後退休的年齡但是他的工作條件工作內容都不改變都不改變的話他其實勞動條件是不能夠變更的\n\n22\n00:07:05,866 --> 00:07:34,611\n市長你也一直強調中高齡者跟高齡者就業促進法第12條的規定禁止就業歧視不可違法可是法不入家門你怎麼去叫雇主遵守?雇主若不遵守的話那勞工摸摸鼻子是不是就只能接受不利的條件嗎?當然依照中高齡就業專法裡面所提到的如果剛剛我也有擔心或勞工朋友有擔心他其實受到了一個年齡的歧視這樣部分的話他可以向縣市政府去申訴的\n\n23\n00:07:35,191 --> 00:07:39,235\n對,申訴最後就罰錢,可是他工作可能也就是會...好,來,有問題嗎?\n\n24\n00:07:39,235 --> 00:07:55,788\n有人說明齁?當然現在我們相關的業務單位接下來會把這個協商的參考指引給訂出來目前可能會在兩個月內齁,把它訂出來,但我其實也要求同仁齁我們不只是把指引訂出來,我們要站在協助勞工的立場齁\n\n25\n00:07:56,869 --> 00:08:17,454\n所以不是說今天這個指引定出來就是只請勞工自己去協商我認為勞動部我們要站在協助勞工的立場怎麼樣替勞工爭取更大更好的條件的這個立場來去推動這件事情我其實已經有跟業務的同仁也謝謝部長我覺得的話你現在有法可是申訴結果結果有可能\n\n26\n00:08:17,932 --> 00:08:42,868\n只罰了僱主結果勞工反而失去工作可是這協商的條件對他們來講真的是很不利所以也希望因為就業市場有時候難免也不可避免的流動性那除了要追求穩定就業政府真的有有義務有責任去找到就業機會開創在就業市場特別是要主動的去做那個就業的一個服務\n\n27\n00:08:43,790 --> 00:09:10,501\n就像你們的發展署的15%的銀髮人才的服務據點他是主動找廠商這我上次質詢的時候就有講過這個方式非常好找那個求職者並做媒合的做法應該就擴大到全國的368個鄉鎮因為今天分屬的優勢就是跟縣市政府的就業服務中心事實上是比較容易事實上是跟民眾有所接觸到那你\n\n28\n00:09:12,099 --> 00:09:27,848\n優於的事實上是一間111跟104大概都是網站的可是到底就業的機會在哪裡有沒有去主動去找所以想問我們的代理署長中高齡及高齡者的就業促進計畫當中113年訂定的工作機會發展計畫全國要開發36850個職缺請問到目前為止開發了多少職缺\n\n29\n00:09:39,194 --> 00:09:55,472\n跟委員報告因為開發職缺的工作是持續不斷進行的那我們也認為中高齡朋友他在就業上有一個所謂的社區性跟地域性的這部分那我也想問說這個職缺目前沒合了多少人數如果這些職缺如果不是符合他們的狀態的話\n\n30\n00:09:56,953 --> 00:09:57,473\n公務及基金預算：一、審查公務及基金預算．僅\n\n31\n00:10:22,372 --> 00:10:40,764\n在雇用獎助金到期後會不會能留在這個職務上超過一年的人數有多少人?我們目前的雇用獎助是鼓勵雇主雇用這些中高齡或特定對象朋友那雇用的期程是12個月為補助的一個期限所以那結束之後呢?\n\n32\n00:10:40,764 --> 00:10:43,666\n超過12個月結束之後繼續留用的大概在6到7成之間\n\n33\n00:10:44,997 --> 00:11:01,028\n那這個是有很精準的統計數據嗎?所以是不是110年這個充雇用獎助金到期後的那個留任率是不是希望還是要有一些統計數據讓我們更精準的去了解?我們不再提供給委員。那最後就是我一直\n\n34\n00:11:01,869 --> 00:11:24,751\n用辦公室都收到這樣子的一個陳情那前面也兩三次都在質詢說你們鼓勵持續就業還有再就業可是有沒有好好的面對到中高齡被逼退假優退的一個社會問題因為畢竟到一個主管職缺的時候他通常薪水比較高那我升級我讓年輕的年輕一點的上來我薪水用的比較低\n\n35\n00:11:25,311 --> 00:11:25,631\n公務及基金預算．僅\n\n36\n00:11:45,229 --> 00:12:05,974\n勞工只能吞下來,真的拿到,然後被退之後後來又請用別的地心來邀請你來工作。所以想問勞動部對這些人數、性別、年齡區間的掌握程度是什麼?還有這些人退休前的薪資待遇呢,還有職銜退休後是不是同一個雇主回聘的狀況,你們有掌握嗎?那個跟文說明喔,這個\n\n37\n00:12:12,557 --> 00:12:41,877\n我們勞動部就相關的法規我們是是絕對是不允許隨便的資錢的啦齁他不是資錢他有時候用優退的方式逼著你退對那那我想我們確實在勞資這個整體協商的過程裡面常常勞工會覺得是比較相對比較弱勢的齁所以這也是為什麼我們要用這些相關的包括是用指引等等等等的方式來對勞工他在整個協商的過程裡面怎麼讓他其實可以跟資方協商的過程裡面可以更\n\n38\n00:12:43,077 --> 00:12:57,345\n更得到更多的支持。那在細節的部分我請那個。各位報告,員工在優退的方案是員工他要自主決定。僱主不可能用任何理由去強迫一個員工接受一個優退的方案。\n\n39\n00:13:00,334 --> 00:13:26,006\n都這樣講可是實際上我們真的辦公室就收到這樣就是你用優退比較高於可是也在職場當中用某種形態逼著他要退之後他退出之後他很難再找到工作所以我們自己在看數據也是這樣啊就是我們自己到60歲那個勞參率跟其他國家比也是比較低很多時候有沒有真的去了解真實的狀況那些填的那表單講優退的到底是不是真實的狀態\n\n40\n00:13:26,906 --> 00:13:27,446\n有些人就像\n\n41\n00:13:49,758 --> 00:14:12,585\n職長大令如果不敢去申訴的最後還是你還是不會得到訊息那這次事實上是蜜兔事件才會讓更多人跳出來那一樣的就是說這件事情可不可以勞動部也要去想怎麼去瞭解到這樣子或者是有沒有一些申訴的管道要認為優退就是好事可是實際上他才50歲或55歲就被逼退了這部分我們會來檢討麻煩部長謝謝謝謝林偉群委員的發言\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11094\t23282\t主席麻煩我們請紅部長跟我們的城市上代理署長還有我們的勞動福祉退休師的謝倩倩市長好有請紅部長代理署長還有市長\n33786\t38752\t部長早。想問部長,過年過節送禮是習俗嗎?你過年會送禮嗎?\n44820\t70429\t我必要的會但是我知道我很想問的就是說我其實已經有請我的署內的同仁其實告訴大家說要避免那種為了好像向上管理的這種送禮的文化我認為應該盡力的避免是部長11月26號上任就對於勞發署就已經宣布取消送禮文化跟挑戰我們的勞動部\n71881\t83687\t內部相互送禮向上管理的那個文觀文化那當然近日外界也不斷質疑就是就業基金的一個用途可是本席瞭解勞動部過往送禮也會使用\n84631\t106308\t就安基金其中很大量的數量事實上是用來採購身心障礙者庇護工廠的產品因為我一直很關心我們的身障朋友們他們要在這個庇護工廠工作才有得到自己所需也能夠才可以建構他的未來所以對於身心障礙者庇護性就業\n107726\t110870\t公務及基金預算：一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部部長列席報告業務概況．\n127145\t143420\t就按基金的支出你怎麼權衡?這兩件事情我們都要兼顧的所以不必要的送禮我們要避免第二個事情是那我們部內接下來如果有採購禮盒的需求的話我已經要指示下去\n144181\t173007\t一定是要以庇護工廠的商品為優先那這部分是當然對於勞動部我們所屬的這些庇護工廠其實大力的支持甚至不只是產品的採購或他們商品的採購我們也希望其實怎麼樣來協助他們更大力的做行銷包括有很多他們可能在行銷計畫的界面上面我們怎麼更大力的支持讓這些庇護工廠本身有能力有更多的餘裕然後可以照顧更多我們這裡面需要照顧的一些身心障礙的朋友\n173567\t191799\t我覺得這個事情它不是權衡的問題這是我們必須兼顧的事情對謝謝部長因為我真的就是要幫這些身心障礙者朋友講話因為我來自社福那接下來當然你要推動庇護性就業支持庇護工廠一直是\n192339\t204324\t我們發展署的施政重點之一可本席發現勞動力發展署身心障礙者就業支援網裡邊對庇護工廠的推廣我們覺得實在是不及格為什麼這樣講只有用一個頁面去推廣庇護工廠的產品資訊而且視覺非常單調連產品的圖片都沒有也看不到價格那看不到價格當然你就沒有辦法讓人家知道說到底我要買的東西所以政府對於推動庇護工廠產品的行銷\n220715\t223257\t靠傳統的DM這樣想法會不會太low?\n223257\t231585\t所以想問我們的代理署長跟農業部的網頁相比有沒有水準差人家很多的感覺?\n233038\t258533\t跟委員報告對不起我沒有看過農業部的相關網站但是從剛剛委員所出示的這個一面確實還有在這個加強經濟的一個空間這個我們會持續來改善希望你們要做因為既然不是只有你們就安基金來做而已那我覺得因為還有外界也希望他們甚至更多政府部門可以來採買我們的身心障礙者譬如工廠所做出來的產品\n259774\t286774\t這個跟林委員報告齁這部分我們會來用更不管是用活潑更多元甚至更有效的方式來協助屁股工廠的行銷甚至我自己我都願意來自己親身來做這些相關的工作那這部分我們會非常非常重視那如果林委員這邊有更多的建議希望你也不吝可以提供給我們更多的建議好不好好謝謝部長因為我們覺得讓弱勢者得到就業機會\n288183\t291091\t他才能夠去照顧他的家庭或他家庭\n291547\t293408\t公務及基金預算：審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管預算：僅\n319024\t322706\t販售的網站的期程。我不知道部長同意嗎?\n322706\t343238\t我其實是覺得時間可以更短。 那太好了。因為這真的是對他們來講是非常重要的。 是。 那再想問今年7月本院就通過了勞動基準法第54條的修正規定勞工年屆65歲的時候可以跟僱主協商延緩的那個退休\n343838\t370488\t那法律公布之後可是勞工普遍有比較高的期待但同時又憂心修法後看得到吃不到所以想問如何有效的透過這樣的協商達到延緩退休的效果更是極為關鍵修法是為了改變現狀不要讓勞工空歡喜一場所以想問那個謝市長還有署長說明一下怎麼樣有效促進協商\n372056\t398762\t我來說明一下是感謝委員關心這個議題這也是這次修法之後我們希望讓有意願留在職場上勞工能夠續留職場也讓僱主能夠讓高齡勞工續留職場但是呢剛剛就是委員關心的部分就是因為這是要勞資雙方去協商那我們會嚴定一個相關協商就是勞資雙方協商延後退休年齡的一個指導的原則或指引這個部分\n399822\t425046\t可是我們因為擔心為什麼我們辦公室有收到這樣如果經協商延緩退休條件是勞工工時不變工作不變可是工資下降怎麼辦我們會在協商指引上面明定如果他延商就是延後退休的年齡但是他的工作條件工作內容都不改變都不改變的話他其實勞動條件是不能夠變更的\n425866\t454611\t市長你也一直強調中高齡者跟高齡者就業促進法第12條的規定禁止就業歧視不可違法可是法不入家門你怎麼去叫雇主遵守?雇主若不遵守的話那勞工摸摸鼻子是不是就只能接受不利的條件嗎?當然依照中高齡就業專法裡面所提到的如果剛剛我也有擔心或勞工朋友有擔心他其實受到了一個年齡的歧視這樣部分的話他可以向縣市政府去申訴的\n455191\t459235\t對,申訴最後就罰錢,可是他工作可能也就是會...好,來,有問題嗎?\n459235\t475788\t有人說明齁?當然現在我們相關的業務單位接下來會把這個協商的參考指引給訂出來目前可能會在兩個月內齁,把它訂出來,但我其實也要求同仁齁我們不只是把指引訂出來,我們要站在協助勞工的立場齁\n476869\t497454\t所以不是說今天這個指引定出來就是只請勞工自己去協商我認為勞動部我們要站在協助勞工的立場怎麼樣替勞工爭取更大更好的條件的這個立場來去推動這件事情我其實已經有跟業務的同仁也謝謝部長我覺得的話你現在有法可是申訴結果結果有可能\n497932\t522868\t只罰了僱主結果勞工反而失去工作可是這協商的條件對他們來講真的是很不利所以也希望因為就業市場有時候難免也不可避免的流動性那除了要追求穩定就業政府真的有有義務有責任去找到就業機會開創在就業市場特別是要主動的去做那個就業的一個服務\n523790\t550501\t就像你們的發展署的15%的銀髮人才的服務據點他是主動找廠商這我上次質詢的時候就有講過這個方式非常好找那個求職者並做媒合的做法應該就擴大到全國的368個鄉鎮因為今天分屬的優勢就是跟縣市政府的就業服務中心事實上是比較容易事實上是跟民眾有所接觸到那你\n552099\t567848\t優於的事實上是一間111跟104大概都是網站的可是到底就業的機會在哪裡有沒有去主動去找所以想問我們的代理署長中高齡及高齡者的就業促進計畫當中113年訂定的工作機會發展計畫全國要開發36850個職缺請問到目前為止開發了多少職缺\n579194\t595472\t跟委員報告因為開發職缺的工作是持續不斷進行的那我們也認為中高齡朋友他在就業上有一個所謂的社區性跟地域性的這部分那我也想問說這個職缺目前沒合了多少人數如果這些職缺如果不是符合他們的狀態的話\n596953\t597473\t公務及基金預算：一、審查公務及基金預算．僅\n622372\t640764\t在雇用獎助金到期後會不會能留在這個職務上超過一年的人數有多少人?我們目前的雇用獎助是鼓勵雇主雇用這些中高齡或特定對象朋友那雇用的期程是12個月為補助的一個期限所以那結束之後呢?\n640764\t643666\t超過12個月結束之後繼續留用的大概在6到7成之間\n644997\t661028\t那這個是有很精準的統計數據嗎?所以是不是110年這個充雇用獎助金到期後的那個留任率是不是希望還是要有一些統計數據讓我們更精準的去了解?我們不再提供給委員。那最後就是我一直\n661869\t684751\t用辦公室都收到這樣子的一個陳情那前面也兩三次都在質詢說你們鼓勵持續就業還有再就業可是有沒有好好的面對到中高齡被逼退假優退的一個社會問題因為畢竟到一個主管職缺的時候他通常薪水比較高那我升級我讓年輕的年輕一點的上來我薪水用的比較低\n685311\t685631\t公務及基金預算．僅\n705229\t725974\t勞工只能吞下來,真的拿到,然後被退之後後來又請用別的地心來邀請你來工作。 所以想問勞動部對這些人數、性別、年齡區間的掌握程度是什麼?還有這些人退休前的薪資待遇呢,還有職銜退休後是不是同一個雇主回聘的狀況,你們有掌握嗎?那個跟文說明喔,這個\n732557\t761877\t我們勞動部就相關的法規我們是是絕對是不允許隨便的資錢的啦齁他不是資錢他有時候用優退的方式逼著你退對那那我想我們確實在勞資這個整體協商的過程裡面常常勞工會覺得是比較相對比較弱勢的齁所以這也是為什麼我們要用這些相關的包括是用指引等等等等的方式來對勞工他在整個協商的過程裡面怎麼讓他其實可以跟資方協商的過程裡面可以更\n763077\t777345\t更得到更多的支持。那在細節的部分我請那個。各位報告,員工在優退的方案是員工他要自主決定。僱主不可能用任何理由去強迫一個員工接受一個優退的方案。\n780334\t806006\t都這樣講可是實際上我們真的辦公室就收到這樣就是你用優退比較高於可是也在職場當中用某種形態逼著他要退之後他退出之後他很難再找到工作所以我們自己在看數據也是這樣啊就是我們自己到60歲那個勞參率跟其他國家比也是比較低很多時候有沒有真的去了解真實的狀況那些填的那表單講優退的到底是不是真實的狀態\n806906\t807446\t有些人就像\n829758\t852585\t職長大令如果不敢去申訴的最後還是你還是不會得到訊息那這次事實上是蜜兔事件才會讓更多人跳出來那一樣的就是說這件事情可不可以勞動部也要去想怎麼去瞭解到這樣子或者是有沒有一些申訴的管道要認為優退就是好事可是實際上他才50歲或55歲就被逼退了這部分我們會來檢討麻煩部長謝謝謝謝林偉群委員的發言\n","txt":"主席麻煩我們請紅部長跟我們的城市上代理署長還有我們的勞動福祉退休師的謝倩倩市長好有請紅部長代理署長還有市長\n部長早。想問部長,過年過節送禮是習俗嗎?你過年會送禮嗎?\n我必要的會但是我知道我很想問的就是說我其實已經有請我的署內的同仁其實告訴大家說要避免那種為了好像向上管理的這種送禮的文化我認為應該盡力的避免是部長11月26號上任就對於勞發署就已經宣布取消送禮文化跟挑戰我們的勞動部\n內部相互送禮向上管理的那個文觀文化那當然近日外界也不斷質疑就是就業基金的一個用途可是本席瞭解勞動部過往送禮也會使用\n就安基金其中很大量的數量事實上是用來採購身心障礙者庇護工廠的產品因為我一直很關心我們的身障朋友們他們要在這個庇護工廠工作才有得到自己所需也能夠才可以建構他的未來所以對於身心障礙者庇護性就業\n公務及基金預算：一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部部長列席報告業務概況．\n就按基金的支出你怎麼權衡?這兩件事情我們都要兼顧的所以不必要的送禮我們要避免第二個事情是那我們部內接下來如果有採購禮盒的需求的話我已經要指示下去\n一定是要以庇護工廠的商品為優先那這部分是當然對於勞動部我們所屬的這些庇護工廠其實大力的支持甚至不只是產品的採購或他們商品的採購我們也希望其實怎麼樣來協助他們更大力的做行銷包括有很多他們可能在行銷計畫的界面上面我們怎麼更大力的支持讓這些庇護工廠本身有能力有更多的餘裕然後可以照顧更多我們這裡面需要照顧的一些身心障礙的朋友\n我覺得這個事情它不是權衡的問題這是我們必須兼顧的事情對謝謝部長因為我真的就是要幫這些身心障礙者朋友講話因為我來自社福那接下來當然你要推動庇護性就業支持庇護工廠一直是\n我們發展署的施政重點之一可本席發現勞動力發展署身心障礙者就業支援網裡邊對庇護工廠的推廣我們覺得實在是不及格為什麼這樣講只有用一個頁面去推廣庇護工廠的產品資訊而且視覺非常單調連產品的圖片都沒有也看不到價格那看不到價格當然你就沒有辦法讓人家知道說到底我要買的東西所以政府對於推動庇護工廠產品的行銷\n靠傳統的DM這樣想法會不會太low?\n所以想問我們的代理署長跟農業部的網頁相比有沒有水準差人家很多的感覺?\n跟委員報告對不起我沒有看過農業部的相關網站但是從剛剛委員所出示的這個一面確實還有在這個加強經濟的一個空間這個我們會持續來改善希望你們要做因為既然不是只有你們就安基金來做而已那我覺得因為還有外界也希望他們甚至更多政府部門可以來採買我們的身心障礙者譬如工廠所做出來的產品\n這個跟林委員報告齁這部分我們會來用更不管是用活潑更多元甚至更有效的方式來協助屁股工廠的行銷甚至我自己我都願意來自己親身來做這些相關的工作那這部分我們會非常非常重視那如果林委員這邊有更多的建議希望你也不吝可以提供給我們更多的建議好不好好謝謝部長因為我們覺得讓弱勢者得到就業機會\n他才能夠去照顧他的家庭或他家庭\n公務及基金預算：審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管預算：僅\n販售的網站的期程。我不知道部長同意嗎?\n我其實是覺得時間可以更短。 那太好了。因為這真的是對他們來講是非常重要的。 是。 那再想問今年7月本院就通過了勞動基準法第54條的修正規定勞工年屆65歲的時候可以跟僱主協商延緩的那個退休\n那法律公布之後可是勞工普遍有比較高的期待但同時又憂心修法後看得到吃不到所以想問如何有效的透過這樣的協商達到延緩退休的效果更是極為關鍵修法是為了改變現狀不要讓勞工空歡喜一場所以想問那個謝市長還有署長說明一下怎麼樣有效促進協商\n我來說明一下是感謝委員關心這個議題這也是這次修法之後我們希望讓有意願留在職場上勞工能夠續留職場也讓僱主能夠讓高齡勞工續留職場但是呢剛剛就是委員關心的部分就是因為這是要勞資雙方去協商那我們會嚴定一個相關協商就是勞資雙方協商延後退休年齡的一個指導的原則或指引這個部分\n可是我們因為擔心為什麼我們辦公室有收到這樣如果經協商延緩退休條件是勞工工時不變工作不變可是工資下降怎麼辦我們會在協商指引上面明定如果他延商就是延後退休的年齡但是他的工作條件工作內容都不改變都不改變的話他其實勞動條件是不能夠變更的\n市長你也一直強調中高齡者跟高齡者就業促進法第12條的規定禁止就業歧視不可違法可是法不入家門你怎麼去叫雇主遵守?雇主若不遵守的話那勞工摸摸鼻子是不是就只能接受不利的條件嗎?當然依照中高齡就業專法裡面所提到的如果剛剛我也有擔心或勞工朋友有擔心他其實受到了一個年齡的歧視這樣部分的話他可以向縣市政府去申訴的\n對,申訴最後就罰錢,可是他工作可能也就是會...好,來,有問題嗎?\n有人說明齁?當然現在我們相關的業務單位接下來會把這個協商的參考指引給訂出來目前可能會在兩個月內齁,把它訂出來,但我其實也要求同仁齁我們不只是把指引訂出來,我們要站在協助勞工的立場齁\n所以不是說今天這個指引定出來就是只請勞工自己去協商我認為勞動部我們要站在協助勞工的立場怎麼樣替勞工爭取更大更好的條件的這個立場來去推動這件事情我其實已經有跟業務的同仁也謝謝部長我覺得的話你現在有法可是申訴結果結果有可能\n只罰了僱主結果勞工反而失去工作可是這協商的條件對他們來講真的是很不利所以也希望因為就業市場有時候難免也不可避免的流動性那除了要追求穩定就業政府真的有有義務有責任去找到就業機會開創在就業市場特別是要主動的去做那個就業的一個服務\n就像你們的發展署的15%的銀髮人才的服務據點他是主動找廠商這我上次質詢的時候就有講過這個方式非常好找那個求職者並做媒合的做法應該就擴大到全國的368個鄉鎮因為今天分屬的優勢就是跟縣市政府的就業服務中心事實上是比較容易事實上是跟民眾有所接觸到那你\n優於的事實上是一間111跟104大概都是網站的可是到底就業的機會在哪裡有沒有去主動去找所以想問我們的代理署長中高齡及高齡者的就業促進計畫當中113年訂定的工作機會發展計畫全國要開發36850個職缺請問到目前為止開發了多少職缺\n跟委員報告因為開發職缺的工作是持續不斷進行的那我們也認為中高齡朋友他在就業上有一個所謂的社區性跟地域性的這部分那我也想問說這個職缺目前沒合了多少人數如果這些職缺如果不是符合他們的狀態的話\n公務及基金預算：一、審查公務及基金預算．僅\n在雇用獎助金到期後會不會能留在這個職務上超過一年的人數有多少人?我們目前的雇用獎助是鼓勵雇主雇用這些中高齡或特定對象朋友那雇用的期程是12個月為補助的一個期限所以那結束之後呢?\n超過12個月結束之後繼續留用的大概在6到7成之間\n那這個是有很精準的統計數據嗎?所以是不是110年這個充雇用獎助金到期後的那個留任率是不是希望還是要有一些統計數據讓我們更精準的去了解?我們不再提供給委員。那最後就是我一直\n用辦公室都收到這樣子的一個陳情那前面也兩三次都在質詢說你們鼓勵持續就業還有再就業可是有沒有好好的面對到中高齡被逼退假優退的一個社會問題因為畢竟到一個主管職缺的時候他通常薪水比較高那我升級我讓年輕的年輕一點的上來我薪水用的比較低\n公務及基金預算．僅\n勞工只能吞下來,真的拿到,然後被退之後後來又請用別的地心來邀請你來工作。 所以想問勞動部對這些人數、性別、年齡區間的掌握程度是什麼?還有這些人退休前的薪資待遇呢,還有職銜退休後是不是同一個雇主回聘的狀況,你們有掌握嗎?那個跟文說明喔,這個\n我們勞動部就相關的法規我們是是絕對是不允許隨便的資錢的啦齁他不是資錢他有時候用優退的方式逼著你退對那那我想我們確實在勞資這個整體協商的過程裡面常常勞工會覺得是比較相對比較弱勢的齁所以這也是為什麼我們要用這些相關的包括是用指引等等等等的方式來對勞工他在整個協商的過程裡面怎麼讓他其實可以跟資方協商的過程裡面可以更\n更得到更多的支持。那在細節的部分我請那個。各位報告,員工在優退的方案是員工他要自主決定。僱主不可能用任何理由去強迫一個員工接受一個優退的方案。\n都這樣講可是實際上我們真的辦公室就收到這樣就是你用優退比較高於可是也在職場當中用某種形態逼著他要退之後他退出之後他很難再找到工作所以我們自己在看數據也是這樣啊就是我們自己到60歲那個勞參率跟其他國家比也是比較低很多時候有沒有真的去了解真實的狀況那些填的那表單講優退的到底是不是真實的狀態\n有些人就像\n職長大令如果不敢去申訴的最後還是你還是不會得到訊息那這次事實上是蜜兔事件才會讓更多人跳出來那一樣的就是說這件事情可不可以勞動部也要去想怎麼去瞭解到這樣子或者是有沒有一些申訴的管道要認為優退就是好事可是實際上他才50歲或55歲就被逼退了這部分我們會來檢討麻煩部長謝謝謝謝林偉群委員的發言\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.094 --> 00:23.282\n主席麻煩我們請紅部長跟我們的城市上代理署長還有我們的勞動福祉退休師的謝倩倩市長好有請紅部長代理署長還有市長\n\n00:33.786 --> 00:38.752\n部長早。想問部長,過年過節送禮是習俗嗎?你過年會送禮嗎?\n\n00:44.820 --> 01:10.429\n我必要的會但是我知道我很想問的就是說我其實已經有請我的署內的同仁其實告訴大家說要避免那種為了好像向上管理的這種送禮的文化我認為應該盡力的避免是部長11月26號上任就對於勞發署就已經宣布取消送禮文化跟挑戰我們的勞動部\n\n01:11.881 --> 01:23.687\n內部相互送禮向上管理的那個文觀文化那當然近日外界也不斷質疑就是就業基金的一個用途可是本席瞭解勞動部過往送禮也會使用\n\n01:24.631 --> 01:46.308\n就安基金其中很大量的數量事實上是用來採購身心障礙者庇護工廠的產品因為我一直很關心我們的身障朋友們他們要在這個庇護工廠工作才有得到自己所需也能夠才可以建構他的未來所以對於身心障礙者庇護性就業\n\n01:47.726 --> 01:50.870\n公務及基金預算：一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部部長列席報告業務概況．\n\n02:07.145 --> 02:23.420\n就按基金的支出你怎麼權衡?這兩件事情我們都要兼顧的所以不必要的送禮我們要避免第二個事情是那我們部內接下來如果有採購禮盒的需求的話我已經要指示下去\n\n02:24.181 --> 02:53.007\n一定是要以庇護工廠的商品為優先那這部分是當然對於勞動部我們所屬的這些庇護工廠其實大力的支持甚至不只是產品的採購或他們商品的採購我們也希望其實怎麼樣來協助他們更大力的做行銷包括有很多他們可能在行銷計畫的界面上面我們怎麼更大力的支持讓這些庇護工廠本身有能力有更多的餘裕然後可以照顧更多我們這裡面需要照顧的一些身心障礙的朋友\n\n02:53.567 --> 03:11.799\n我覺得這個事情它不是權衡的問題這是我們必須兼顧的事情對謝謝部長因為我真的就是要幫這些身心障礙者朋友講話因為我來自社福那接下來當然你要推動庇護性就業支持庇護工廠一直是\n\n03:12.339 --> 03:24.324\n我們發展署的施政重點之一可本席發現勞動力發展署身心障礙者就業支援網裡邊對庇護工廠的推廣我們覺得實在是不及格為什麼這樣講只有用一個頁面去推廣庇護工廠的產品資訊而且視覺非常單調連產品的圖片都沒有也看不到價格那看不到價格當然你就沒有辦法讓人家知道說到底我要買的東西所以政府對於推動庇護工廠產品的行銷\n\n03:40.715 --> 03:43.257\n靠傳統的DM這樣想法會不會太low?\n\n03:43.257 --> 03:51.585\n所以想問我們的代理署長跟農業部的網頁相比有沒有水準差人家很多的感覺?\n\n03:53.038 --> 04:18.533\n跟委員報告對不起我沒有看過農業部的相關網站但是從剛剛委員所出示的這個一面確實還有在這個加強經濟的一個空間這個我們會持續來改善希望你們要做因為既然不是只有你們就安基金來做而已那我覺得因為還有外界也希望他們甚至更多政府部門可以來採買我們的身心障礙者譬如工廠所做出來的產品\n\n04:19.774 --> 04:46.774\n這個跟林委員報告齁這部分我們會來用更不管是用活潑更多元甚至更有效的方式來協助屁股工廠的行銷甚至我自己我都願意來自己親身來做這些相關的工作那這部分我們會非常非常重視那如果林委員這邊有更多的建議希望你也不吝可以提供給我們更多的建議好不好好謝謝部長因為我們覺得讓弱勢者得到就業機會\n\n04:48.183 --> 04:51.091\n他才能夠去照顧他的家庭或他家庭\n\n04:51.547 --> 04:53.408\n公務及基金預算：審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管預算：僅\n\n05:19.024 --> 05:22.706\n販售的網站的期程。我不知道部長同意嗎?\n\n05:22.706 --> 05:43.238\n我其實是覺得時間可以更短。那太好了。因為這真的是對他們來講是非常重要的。是。那再想問今年7月本院就通過了勞動基準法第54條的修正規定勞工年屆65歲的時候可以跟僱主協商延緩的那個退休\n\n05:43.838 --> 06:10.488\n那法律公布之後可是勞工普遍有比較高的期待但同時又憂心修法後看得到吃不到所以想問如何有效的透過這樣的協商達到延緩退休的效果更是極為關鍵修法是為了改變現狀不要讓勞工空歡喜一場所以想問那個謝市長還有署長說明一下怎麼樣有效促進協商\n\n06:12.056 --> 06:38.762\n我來說明一下是感謝委員關心這個議題這也是這次修法之後我們希望讓有意願留在職場上勞工能夠續留職場也讓僱主能夠讓高齡勞工續留職場但是呢剛剛就是委員關心的部分就是因為這是要勞資雙方去協商那我們會嚴定一個相關協商就是勞資雙方協商延後退休年齡的一個指導的原則或指引這個部分\n\n06:39.822 --> 07:05.046\n可是我們因為擔心為什麼我們辦公室有收到這樣如果經協商延緩退休條件是勞工工時不變工作不變可是工資下降怎麼辦我們會在協商指引上面明定如果他延商就是延後退休的年齡但是他的工作條件工作內容都不改變都不改變的話他其實勞動條件是不能夠變更的\n\n07:05.866 --> 07:34.611\n市長你也一直強調中高齡者跟高齡者就業促進法第12條的規定禁止就業歧視不可違法可是法不入家門你怎麼去叫雇主遵守?雇主若不遵守的話那勞工摸摸鼻子是不是就只能接受不利的條件嗎?當然依照中高齡就業專法裡面所提到的如果剛剛我也有擔心或勞工朋友有擔心他其實受到了一個年齡的歧視這樣部分的話他可以向縣市政府去申訴的\n\n07:35.191 --> 07:39.235\n對,申訴最後就罰錢,可是他工作可能也就是會...好,來,有問題嗎?\n\n07:39.235 --> 07:55.788\n有人說明齁?當然現在我們相關的業務單位接下來會把這個協商的參考指引給訂出來目前可能會在兩個月內齁,把它訂出來,但我其實也要求同仁齁我們不只是把指引訂出來,我們要站在協助勞工的立場齁\n\n07:56.869 --> 08:17.454\n所以不是說今天這個指引定出來就是只請勞工自己去協商我認為勞動部我們要站在協助勞工的立場怎麼樣替勞工爭取更大更好的條件的這個立場來去推動這件事情我其實已經有跟業務的同仁也謝謝部長我覺得的話你現在有法可是申訴結果結果有可能\n\n08:17.932 --> 08:42.868\n只罰了僱主結果勞工反而失去工作可是這協商的條件對他們來講真的是很不利所以也希望因為就業市場有時候難免也不可避免的流動性那除了要追求穩定就業政府真的有有義務有責任去找到就業機會開創在就業市場特別是要主動的去做那個就業的一個服務\n\n08:43.790 --> 09:10.501\n就像你們的發展署的15%的銀髮人才的服務據點他是主動找廠商這我上次質詢的時候就有講過這個方式非常好找那個求職者並做媒合的做法應該就擴大到全國的368個鄉鎮因為今天分屬的優勢就是跟縣市政府的就業服務中心事實上是比較容易事實上是跟民眾有所接觸到那你\n\n09:12.099 --> 09:27.848\n優於的事實上是一間111跟104大概都是網站的可是到底就業的機會在哪裡有沒有去主動去找所以想問我們的代理署長中高齡及高齡者的就業促進計畫當中113年訂定的工作機會發展計畫全國要開發36850個職缺請問到目前為止開發了多少職缺\n\n09:39.194 --> 09:55.472\n跟委員報告因為開發職缺的工作是持續不斷進行的那我們也認為中高齡朋友他在就業上有一個所謂的社區性跟地域性的這部分那我也想問說這個職缺目前沒合了多少人數如果這些職缺如果不是符合他們的狀態的話\n\n09:56.953 --> 09:57.473\n公務及基金預算：一、審查公務及基金預算．僅\n\n10:22.372 --> 10:40.764\n在雇用獎助金到期後會不會能留在這個職務上超過一年的人數有多少人?我們目前的雇用獎助是鼓勵雇主雇用這些中高齡或特定對象朋友那雇用的期程是12個月為補助的一個期限所以那結束之後呢?\n\n10:40.764 --> 10:43.666\n超過12個月結束之後繼續留用的大概在6到7成之間\n\n10:44.997 --> 11:01.028\n那這個是有很精準的統計數據嗎?所以是不是110年這個充雇用獎助金到期後的那個留任率是不是希望還是要有一些統計數據讓我們更精準的去了解?我們不再提供給委員。那最後就是我一直\n\n11:01.869 --> 11:24.751\n用辦公室都收到這樣子的一個陳情那前面也兩三次都在質詢說你們鼓勵持續就業還有再就業可是有沒有好好的面對到中高齡被逼退假優退的一個社會問題因為畢竟到一個主管職缺的時候他通常薪水比較高那我升級我讓年輕的年輕一點的上來我薪水用的比較低\n\n11:25.311 --> 11:25.631\n公務及基金預算．僅\n\n11:45.229 --> 12:05.974\n勞工只能吞下來,真的拿到,然後被退之後後來又請用別的地心來邀請你來工作。所以想問勞動部對這些人數、性別、年齡區間的掌握程度是什麼?還有這些人退休前的薪資待遇呢,還有職銜退休後是不是同一個雇主回聘的狀況,你們有掌握嗎?那個跟文說明喔,這個\n\n12:12.557 --> 12:41.877\n我們勞動部就相關的法規我們是是絕對是不允許隨便的資錢的啦齁他不是資錢他有時候用優退的方式逼著你退對那那我想我們確實在勞資這個整體協商的過程裡面常常勞工會覺得是比較相對比較弱勢的齁所以這也是為什麼我們要用這些相關的包括是用指引等等等等的方式來對勞工他在整個協商的過程裡面怎麼讓他其實可以跟資方協商的過程裡面可以更\n\n12:43.077 --> 12:57.345\n更得到更多的支持。那在細節的部分我請那個。各位報告,員工在優退的方案是員工他要自主決定。僱主不可能用任何理由去強迫一個員工接受一個優退的方案。\n\n13:00.334 --> 13:26.006\n都這樣講可是實際上我們真的辦公室就收到這樣就是你用優退比較高於可是也在職場當中用某種形態逼著他要退之後他退出之後他很難再找到工作所以我們自己在看數據也是這樣啊就是我們自己到60歲那個勞參率跟其他國家比也是比較低很多時候有沒有真的去了解真實的狀況那些填的那表單講優退的到底是不是真實的狀態\n\n13:26.906 --> 13:27.446\n有些人就像\n\n13:49.758 --> 14:12.585\n職長大令如果不敢去申訴的最後還是你還是不會得到訊息那這次事實上是蜜兔事件才會讓更多人跳出來那一樣的就是說這件事情可不可以勞動部也要去想怎麼去瞭解到這樣子或者是有沒有一些申訴的管道要認為優退就是好事可是實際上他才50歲或55歲就被逼退了這部分我們會來檢討麻煩部長謝謝謝謝林偉群委員的發言\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.094,"end":23.282,"text":"主席麻煩我們請紅部長跟我們的城市上代理署長還有我們的勞動福祉退休師的謝倩倩市長好有請紅部長代理署長還有市長"},{"start":33.786,"end":38.752,"text":"部長早。想問部長,過年過節送禮是習俗嗎?你過年會送禮嗎?"},{"start":44.82,"end":70.429,"text":"我必要的會但是我知道我很想問的就是說我其實已經有請我的署內的同仁其實告訴大家說要避免那種為了好像向上管理的這種送禮的文化我認為應該盡力的避免是部長11月26號上任就對於勞發署就已經宣布取消送禮文化跟挑戰我們的勞動部"},{"start":71.881,"end":83.687,"text":"內部相互送禮向上管理的那個文觀文化那當然近日外界也不斷質疑就是就業基金的一個用途可是本席瞭解勞動部過往送禮也會使用"},{"start":84.631,"end":106.308,"text":"就安基金其中很大量的數量事實上是用來採購身心障礙者庇護工廠的產品因為我一直很關心我們的身障朋友們他們要在這個庇護工廠工作才有得到自己所需也能夠才可以建構他的未來所以對於身心障礙者庇護性就業"},{"start":107.726,"end":110.87,"text":"公務及基金預算：一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部部長列席報告業務概況．"},{"start":127.145,"end":143.42,"text":"就按基金的支出你怎麼權衡?這兩件事情我們都要兼顧的所以不必要的送禮我們要避免第二個事情是那我們部內接下來如果有採購禮盒的需求的話我已經要指示下去"},{"start":144.181,"end":173.007,"text":"一定是要以庇護工廠的商品為優先那這部分是當然對於勞動部我們所屬的這些庇護工廠其實大力的支持甚至不只是產品的採購或他們商品的採購我們也希望其實怎麼樣來協助他們更大力的做行銷包括有很多他們可能在行銷計畫的界面上面我們怎麼更大力的支持讓這些庇護工廠本身有能力有更多的餘裕然後可以照顧更多我們這裡面需要照顧的一些身心障礙的朋友"},{"start":173.567,"end":191.799,"text":"我覺得這個事情它不是權衡的問題這是我們必須兼顧的事情對謝謝部長因為我真的就是要幫這些身心障礙者朋友講話因為我來自社福那接下來當然你要推動庇護性就業支持庇護工廠一直是"},{"start":192.339,"end":204.324,"text":"我們發展署的施政重點之一可本席發現勞動力發展署身心障礙者就業支援網裡邊對庇護工廠的推廣我們覺得實在是不及格為什麼這樣講只有用一個頁面去推廣庇護工廠的產品資訊而且視覺非常單調連產品的圖片都沒有也看不到價格那看不到價格當然你就沒有辦法讓人家知道說到底我要買的東西所以政府對於推動庇護工廠產品的行銷"},{"start":220.715,"end":223.257,"text":"靠傳統的DM這樣想法會不會太low?"},{"start":223.257,"end":231.585,"text":"所以想問我們的代理署長跟農業部的網頁相比有沒有水準差人家很多的感覺?"},{"start":233.038,"end":258.533,"text":"跟委員報告對不起我沒有看過農業部的相關網站但是從剛剛委員所出示的這個一面確實還有在這個加強經濟的一個空間這個我們會持續來改善希望你們要做因為既然不是只有你們就安基金來做而已那我覺得因為還有外界也希望他們甚至更多政府部門可以來採買我們的身心障礙者譬如工廠所做出來的產品"},{"start":259.774,"end":286.774,"text":"這個跟林委員報告齁這部分我們會來用更不管是用活潑更多元甚至更有效的方式來協助屁股工廠的行銷甚至我自己我都願意來自己親身來做這些相關的工作那這部分我們會非常非常重視那如果林委員這邊有更多的建議希望你也不吝可以提供給我們更多的建議好不好好謝謝部長因為我們覺得讓弱勢者得到就業機會"},{"start":288.183,"end":291.091,"text":"他才能夠去照顧他的家庭或他家庭"},{"start":291.547,"end":293.408,"text":"公務及基金預算：審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管預算：僅"},{"start":319.024,"end":322.706,"text":"販售的網站的期程。我不知道部長同意嗎?"},{"start":322.706,"end":343.238,"text":"我其實是覺得時間可以更短。 那太好了。因為這真的是對他們來講是非常重要的。 是。 那再想問今年7月本院就通過了勞動基準法第54條的修正規定勞工年屆65歲的時候可以跟僱主協商延緩的那個退休"},{"start":343.838,"end":370.488,"text":"那法律公布之後可是勞工普遍有比較高的期待但同時又憂心修法後看得到吃不到所以想問如何有效的透過這樣的協商達到延緩退休的效果更是極為關鍵修法是為了改變現狀不要讓勞工空歡喜一場所以想問那個謝市長還有署長說明一下怎麼樣有效促進協商"},{"start":372.056,"end":398.762,"text":"我來說明一下是感謝委員關心這個議題這也是這次修法之後我們希望讓有意願留在職場上勞工能夠續留職場也讓僱主能夠讓高齡勞工續留職場但是呢剛剛就是委員關心的部分就是因為這是要勞資雙方去協商那我們會嚴定一個相關協商就是勞資雙方協商延後退休年齡的一個指導的原則或指引這個部分"},{"start":399.822,"end":425.046,"text":"可是我們因為擔心為什麼我們辦公室有收到這樣如果經協商延緩退休條件是勞工工時不變工作不變可是工資下降怎麼辦我們會在協商指引上面明定如果他延商就是延後退休的年齡但是他的工作條件工作內容都不改變都不改變的話他其實勞動條件是不能夠變更的"},{"start":425.866,"end":454.611,"text":"市長你也一直強調中高齡者跟高齡者就業促進法第12條的規定禁止就業歧視不可違法可是法不入家門你怎麼去叫雇主遵守?雇主若不遵守的話那勞工摸摸鼻子是不是就只能接受不利的條件嗎?當然依照中高齡就業專法裡面所提到的如果剛剛我也有擔心或勞工朋友有擔心他其實受到了一個年齡的歧視這樣部分的話他可以向縣市政府去申訴的"},{"start":455.191,"end":459.235,"text":"對,申訴最後就罰錢,可是他工作可能也就是會...好,來,有問題嗎?"},{"start":459.235,"end":475.788,"text":"有人說明齁?當然現在我們相關的業務單位接下來會把這個協商的參考指引給訂出來目前可能會在兩個月內齁,把它訂出來,但我其實也要求同仁齁我們不只是把指引訂出來,我們要站在協助勞工的立場齁"},{"start":476.869,"end":497.454,"text":"所以不是說今天這個指引定出來就是只請勞工自己去協商我認為勞動部我們要站在協助勞工的立場怎麼樣替勞工爭取更大更好的條件的這個立場來去推動這件事情我其實已經有跟業務的同仁也謝謝部長我覺得的話你現在有法可是申訴結果結果有可能"},{"start":497.932,"end":522.868,"text":"只罰了僱主結果勞工反而失去工作可是這協商的條件對他們來講真的是很不利所以也希望因為就業市場有時候難免也不可避免的流動性那除了要追求穩定就業政府真的有有義務有責任去找到就業機會開創在就業市場特別是要主動的去做那個就業的一個服務"},{"start":523.79,"end":550.501,"text":"就像你們的發展署的15%的銀髮人才的服務據點他是主動找廠商這我上次質詢的時候就有講過這個方式非常好找那個求職者並做媒合的做法應該就擴大到全國的368個鄉鎮因為今天分屬的優勢就是跟縣市政府的就業服務中心事實上是比較容易事實上是跟民眾有所接觸到那你"},{"start":552.099,"end":567.848,"text":"優於的事實上是一間111跟104大概都是網站的可是到底就業的機會在哪裡有沒有去主動去找所以想問我們的代理署長中高齡及高齡者的就業促進計畫當中113年訂定的工作機會發展計畫全國要開發36850個職缺請問到目前為止開發了多少職缺"},{"start":579.194,"end":595.472,"text":"跟委員報告因為開發職缺的工作是持續不斷進行的那我們也認為中高齡朋友他在就業上有一個所謂的社區性跟地域性的這部分那我也想問說這個職缺目前沒合了多少人數如果這些職缺如果不是符合他們的狀態的話"},{"start":596.953,"end":597.473,"text":"公務及基金預算：一、審查公務及基金預算．僅"},{"start":622.372,"end":640.764,"text":"在雇用獎助金到期後會不會能留在這個職務上超過一年的人數有多少人?我們目前的雇用獎助是鼓勵雇主雇用這些中高齡或特定對象朋友那雇用的期程是12個月為補助的一個期限所以那結束之後呢?"},{"start":640.764,"end":643.666,"text":"超過12個月結束之後繼續留用的大概在6到7成之間"},{"start":644.997,"end":661.028,"text":"那這個是有很精準的統計數據嗎?所以是不是110年這個充雇用獎助金到期後的那個留任率是不是希望還是要有一些統計數據讓我們更精準的去了解?我們不再提供給委員。那最後就是我一直"},{"start":661.869,"end":684.751,"text":"用辦公室都收到這樣子的一個陳情那前面也兩三次都在質詢說你們鼓勵持續就業還有再就業可是有沒有好好的面對到中高齡被逼退假優退的一個社會問題因為畢竟到一個主管職缺的時候他通常薪水比較高那我升級我讓年輕的年輕一點的上來我薪水用的比較低"},{"start":685.311,"end":685.631,"text":"公務及基金預算．僅"},{"start":705.229,"end":725.974,"text":"勞工只能吞下來,真的拿到,然後被退之後後來又請用別的地心來邀請你來工作。 所以想問勞動部對這些人數、性別、年齡區間的掌握程度是什麼?還有這些人退休前的薪資待遇呢,還有職銜退休後是不是同一個雇主回聘的狀況,你們有掌握嗎?那個跟文說明喔,這個"},{"start":732.557,"end":761.877,"text":"我們勞動部就相關的法規我們是是絕對是不允許隨便的資錢的啦齁他不是資錢他有時候用優退的方式逼著你退對那那我想我們確實在勞資這個整體協商的過程裡面常常勞工會覺得是比較相對比較弱勢的齁所以這也是為什麼我們要用這些相關的包括是用指引等等等等的方式來對勞工他在整個協商的過程裡面怎麼讓他其實可以跟資方協商的過程裡面可以更"},{"start":763.077,"end":777.345,"text":"更得到更多的支持。那在細節的部分我請那個。各位報告,員工在優退的方案是員工他要自主決定。僱主不可能用任何理由去強迫一個員工接受一個優退的方案。"},{"start":780.334,"end":806.006,"text":"都這樣講可是實際上我們真的辦公室就收到這樣就是你用優退比較高於可是也在職場當中用某種形態逼著他要退之後他退出之後他很難再找到工作所以我們自己在看數據也是這樣啊就是我們自己到60歲那個勞參率跟其他國家比也是比較低很多時候有沒有真的去了解真實的狀況那些填的那表單講優退的到底是不是真實的狀態"},{"start":806.906,"end":807.446,"text":"有些人就像"},{"start":829.758,"end":852.585,"text":"職長大令如果不敢去申訴的最後還是你還是不會得到訊息那這次事實上是蜜兔事件才會讓更多人跳出來那一樣的就是說這件事情可不可以勞動部也要去想怎麼去瞭解到這樣子或者是有沒有一些申訴的管道要認為優退就是好事可是實際上他才50歲或55歲就被逼退了這部分我們會來檢討麻煩部長謝謝謝謝林偉群委員的發言"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":65,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時29分）主席，麻煩請洪部長、陳世昌代理署長及勞動福祉退休司謝倩蒨司長。"],["主席：有請洪部長、代理署長及司長。"],["洪部長申翰：林委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。想問部長，過年過節送禮是習俗，你過年會送禮嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我必要的會，但是我知道委員想問的，我其實已經有請署內的同仁……我告訴大家，要避免那種為了向上管理的送禮文化，我認為應該要盡力地避免。"],["林委員月琴：是，部長11月26號上任，就已經對勞發署宣布取消送禮文化跟挑戰勞動部內部相互送禮、向上管理的文官文化，當然近日外界也在不斷質疑就業基金的用途，可是本席了解勞動部過往送禮也會使用就安基金，其中很大的數量事實上是用來採購身心障礙者庇護工場的產品。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["林委員月琴：因為我一直很關心我們的身障朋友們，他們要在這個庇護工場工作，才能得到自己所需，也才能夠建構他的未來，所以對於身心障礙者庇護性就業有很大的支持，購買庇護工場的產品，庇護工場有賺錢就更有能力去聘僱更多的身心障礙者。所以想問部長的是，要對抗不當的送禮文化，可是我們還是期待同時要支持這些庇護性的就業，更要落實監督、就安基金的支出，你怎麼權衡？"],["洪部長申翰：這兩件事情是我們都要兼顧的，所以不必要的送禮我們認為要避免。第二個事情是部內接下來如果有採購禮盒的需求的話，我已經有指示下去，一定是要以庇護工場的商品為優先，對於我們勞動部所屬的這些庇護工場，當然是大力的支持，甚至不只是對於他們產品的採購，我們也希望看怎麼樣來協助他們更大力地做行銷，包括有很多可能在行銷計畫的介面上面，我們怎麼更大力地支持，讓這些庇護工場本身有能力、有更多的餘裕，可以照顧更多需要被照顧的身心障礙朋友，我覺得這個事情不是權衡的問題，這件事情是我們必須兼顧的事情。"],["林委員月琴：謝謝部長，我真的要幫這些身心障礙者朋友講話，因為我來自社福。接下來，當然推動庇護性就業、支持庇護工場，一直是發展署的施政重點之一，可是勞動力發展署身心障礙者就業資源網裡面對庇護工場的推廣，我們覺得實在是不及格，為什麼這樣講？只有用一個頁面去推廣庇護工場的產品資訊，而且視覺非常單調，連產品的圖片都沒有，也看不到價格，那看不到價格，當然你就沒有辦法讓人家知道到底我要買的東西，政府對於推動庇護工場產品的行銷只靠傳統的DM，這樣的想法會不會太落後？所以想問代理署長，跟農業部的網頁相比，有沒有水準差人家很多的感覺？"],["陳代理署長世昌：跟委員報告，對不起，我沒有看過農業部的相關網站，但是從剛剛委員所出示的這個頁面，確實還有再加強、精進的空間，我們會持續來改善。"],["林委員月琴：希望你們要做，不是只有你們就安基金來做而已，甚至更多政府部門可以來採買我們的身心障礙者庇護工場所做出來的產品。"],["洪部長申翰：跟林委員報告，這部分我們會用更活潑、更多元，甚至更有效的方式來協助庇護工場的行銷，甚至我自己都願意親身來做這些相關的工作，這部分我們會非常非常重視，如果林委員這邊有更多的建議，也希望你可以不吝提供給我們，好不好？"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝部長，因為我們覺得讓弱勢者得到就業機會，他才能夠去照顧他家庭，或者這個孩子能夠自立的話，他的家庭也才能夠安定下來……"],["洪部長申翰：是，非常同意這個精神。"],["林委員月琴：也能夠得到一頓溫飽，所以優化網頁才能有效地讓更多的網友們或民眾看到庇護工場的產品到底有哪些好，所以不是只有就安基金來買這個，我覺得要花在支持庇護性就業跟工場裡面，所以本席要求勞動部在三個月內研議出優化庇護工場產品販售的網站期程，部長同意嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我其實是覺得時間可以更短。"],["林委員月琴：那太好了！因為這對他們來講真的是非常重要的。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["林委員月琴：再來想問，今年7月本院就通過了勞動基準法第五十四條的修正，規定勞工年屆65歲的時候，可以跟雇主協商延緩退休，法律公布之後勞工普遍有比較高的期待，但同時又憂心修法後看得到吃不到，所以想問如何有效地透過這樣的協商，達到延緩退休的效果，這更是極為關鍵，修法是為了改變現狀，不要讓勞工空歡喜一場，所以想問謝司長還有署長，說明一下怎麼樣有效促進協商？"],["謝司長倩蒨：我來說明一下，感謝委員關心這個議題，這次修法之後，我們希望讓有意願留在職場上的勞工能夠續留職場，也讓雇主能夠讓高齡勞工續留職場。剛剛委員關心的部分，就是因為這是要勞資雙方去協商，我們會研訂一個勞資雙方協商延後退休年齡的指導原則或指引。"],["林委員月琴：可是為什麼我們辦公室有時候會收到陳情？我們擔心如果經協商延緩退休的條件是勞工工時不變、工作不變，可是工資下降怎麼辦？"],["謝司長倩蒨：我們會在協商指引上面明定，如果他延後退休的年齡，而他的工作條件、工作內容都不改變的話，其實他的勞動條件是不能夠變更的。"],["林委員月琴：司長，你也一直強調中高齡者跟高齡者就業促進法第十二條的規定，禁止就業歧視，不可違法，可是法不入家門，你怎麼去叫雇主遵守？雇主若不遵守的話，勞工摸摸鼻子是不是就只能接受不利的條件？"],["謝司長倩蒨：當然，依照中高齡就業專法裡面所提到的，如果有委員剛剛擔心的，或勞工朋友擔心的，他受到了年齡歧視的話，他其實是可以向縣市政府去申訴的。"],["林委員月琴：對，申訴最後就罰錢，可是他的工作可能也會丟了。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，當然，我們相關的業務單位接下來會把這個協商的參考指引訂出來，目前可能會在兩個月內把它訂出來，但我其實也要求同仁，我們不只是把指引訂出來，我們要站在協助勞工的立場，所以不是說今天這個指引訂出來，就只是請勞工自己去協商，我認為我們勞動部要站在協助勞工的立場，站在怎麼樣替勞工爭取更大、更好的條件的這個立場去推動這件事情，我其實已經有跟負責業務的同仁指示了。"],["林委員月琴：好，也謝謝部長，否則你現在有法，可是申訴的結果有可能只罰了雇主，結果勞工反而失去工作，可是這協商的條件對他們來講真的是很不利，因為就業市場有時候難免有不可避免的流動性，除了要追求穩定就業，政府真的有義務、有責任去找到就業機會，開創再就業市場，特別是要主動地去做就業的服務，就像你們發展署北分署的銀髮人才服務據點，它是主動找廠商，這個我上次質詢的時候就有講過，這個方式非常好，找求職者並做媒合的作法，應該要擴大到全國的368個鄉鎮，因為今天分署跟縣市政府就業服務中心的優勢事實上就是比較容易跟民眾有所接觸，因為111跟104大概都是網站的，可是到底就業的機會在哪裡，有沒有主動去找？所以想問代理署長，中高齡及高齡者的就業促進計畫當中，113年訂定的工作機會發展計畫，全國要開發3萬6,850個職缺，請問到目前為止，開發了多少職缺？"],["陳代理署長世昌：跟委員報告，因為開發職缺的工作是持續不斷進行的，我們也認為中高齡朋友在就業上，有所謂社區性跟地域性的需要……"],["林委員月琴：我也想問這個職缺目前媒合了多少人數？"],["陳代理署長世昌：我們……"],["林委員月琴：不過這些職缺如果不是符合他們的狀態的話，開發了這個可能也是沒辦法。"],["陳代理署長世昌：對，所以我們對於中高齡朋友的工作機會，一直強調的就是能夠儘量兼顧他們在家庭的生活需求，跟自己未來的職涯發展需求，所以朝向彈性化跟部分工時這樣子多元的就業機會，一直是我們努力的目標。"],["林委員月琴：所以一直以來我覺得政府就業服務的留任率都很有問題，就是你要靠獎助金去支撐，在僱用獎助金到期後，能留在這個職務上超過一年的人數有多少人？"],["陳代理署長世昌：我們目前的僱用獎助是鼓勵雇主僱用這些中高齡或特定對象朋友，那僱用的期程是12個月為補助的期限……"],["林委員月琴：那結束之後呢？"],["陳代理署長世昌：超過12個月結束之後繼續留用的大概在六到七成之間。"],["林委員月琴：這有很精準的統計數據嗎？"],["陳代理署長世昌：有。"],["林委員月琴：所以110年僱用獎助金到期後的留任率，希望還是要提供一些統計數據，讓我們更精準的去了解。"],["陳代理署長世昌：是，我們會再提供給委員。"],["林委員月琴：最後，因為我們辦公室一直都收到這樣的陳情，前面我也兩、三次質詢，你們鼓勵持續就業還有再就業，可是有沒有好好的面對中高齡被逼退、假優退的社會問題？因為畢竟到一個主管職缺的時候，通常薪水比較高，那讓年輕一點的上來，雇主付的薪水比較低，所以很多人到50歲或55歲被逼退，我們現在說65歲要延退可以協商，可是如果55歲就被逼退，根本沒有辦法有工作了。所以我想問的是，勞動部有沒有掌握這些？所謂的優退搞不好都是假的，勞工只能吞下來，被逼退之後，後來又用比較低的薪水來邀請你工作，請問勞動部對於這些人數、性別、年齡區間的掌握程度是什麼？還有這些人退休前的薪資待遇呢？退休後被同一個雇主回聘的狀況，你們有掌握嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，勞動部就相關的法規是絕對不允許隨便資遣的啦。"],["林委員月琴：他不是資遣，有時候是用優退的方式逼著你退。"],["洪部長申翰：對，確實在勞資整體協商的過程裡面，常常勞工會覺得相對比較弱勢，這也是為什麼我們要用這些相關的包括指引等方式，讓勞工可以在跟資方協商的過程中得到更多的支持，在細節的部分，我請司長說明。"],["王司長厚偉：跟委員報告，優退的方案是員工要自主決定，雇主不能用任何理由去強迫一個員工接受優退的方案。"],["林委員月琴：都這樣講，可是實際上我們辦公室真的收到這樣的陳情，雖然用優退比較高，可是也在職場當中用某種型態逼著他要退，他退出之後大概很難再找到工作，所以我們自己在看數據也是這樣啊，就是我們60歲的勞參率跟其他國家比也是比較低的。很多時候有沒有真的去了解真實的狀況？填的那些表單講優退的到底是不是真實的狀態？"],["洪部長申翰：林委員，請你把你遇到的相關案件提供給我們，我們來看這些個案的狀況，哪些部分我們可以再多做協助，好不好？"],["林委員月琴：部長，我現在接到單一的一些個案，可是單一個案可以擴及到……就像職場霸凌，不敢去申訴的，最後你還是不會得到訊息，這次事實上是#MeToo事件，才會讓更多人跳出來，一樣的，這件事情勞動部也要去思考怎麼去了解到真實的狀況，或者是有沒有一些申訴的管道。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["林委員月琴：不要認為優退就是好事，可是實際上他才50歲或55歲就被逼退了。"],["洪部長申翰：這部分我們會來檢討，謝謝。"],["林委員月琴：好，再麻煩部長，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員的發言，也謝謝勞動部各級主管的回答。","下一位請陳菁徽委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":196,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王育敏","涂權吉","盧縣一","陳瑩","蘇清泉","陳培瑜","林淑芬","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","王正旭","黃國昌","張啓楷","劉建國","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","張雅琳"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-09"],"gazette_id":"1140403","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140403_00002","1140403_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案\n關於勞動部主管預算（公務及基金預算）；三、審查勞動部函送財團法人職業災害預防及重建中心\n114年度預算書案【所列預算案，僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1140403_00001"}}}