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00:00:06,895\n有我有在我有看到相關的訊息。那你也知道他們有針對三大議題要請您回應嗎?\n\n3\n00:00:06,895 --> 00:00:07,215\n是我在在他們的資訊裡面有看到。\n\n4\n00:00:34,281 --> 00:00:48,756\n全國的勞工已經氣炸了對於許民春對於何佩珊對於謝怡榮無比的憤怒因為你們本該是捍衛全國勞工的勞動部結果最近是揮霍公堂被看破手腳\n\n5\n00:00:49,537 --> 00:01:17,871\n所以他們有三個要回應的第一個是全面檢討基金的用途包括過相關部會如實的揭露第二個是強化基金審查委員會成員的專業度並且有第三方建立真正外部監督的機制還有第三對於勞動部長久以來遲遲沒有回應的重大勞動議題比如說增加國定假日等等希望藉由絕食讓你聽到他們的聲音你現在初步有想要利用這樣子的場合回應嗎\n\n6\n00:01:19,731 --> 00:01:32,716\n其實這裡面幾個訴求那尤其我們看到針對救安基金的部分其實我們上週其實就已經開始非常非常密切的在檢討了那甚至也開始邀請一些外部有相關專業的專家來給我們建議\n\n7\n00:01:36,357 --> 00:01:57,992\n那我們目前我自己也認為就將救安基金整體的管理要朝向更監理化的方向來做檢討跟調整那我自己也認為現在的整個救安軍管理機制確實是有調整的空間所以當也提到說包括像現在救安基金的收支管理辦法其實也在整體檢討的範圍內\n\n8\n00:02:00,723 --> 00:02:13,695\n所以您會到現場回應還是你在這邊回應或是等一下跟媒體朋友做回應我覺得我沒有其實對我們來說這些事情我們就是要努力大力的往前做把事情做出來才是最好的回應的方式\n\n9\n00:02:14,974 --> 00:02:27,001\n好那再來我們就看一下吼你的這個救安基金現在是為什麼大家會非常的生氣我們先看左邊的這個圖你看一下勞動部從111年112年113年我已經幫你整理出來了我們看到這個勞動部分專經營管理網路行銷還有文宣媒體通路採購案簡單來說就是大內宣大外宣吶吼\n\n10\n00:02:43,342 --> 00:03:07,294\n一百一十一年從救安基金出了二十萬然後一百八十六萬好零零總總的我先幫你加起來因為這些項目連續三年都有全部加起來是一億兩千五百四十四萬六四八零元可能演唱會也包含在裡面因為是媒體通路採購案嘛\n\n11\n00:03:08,815 --> 00:03:15,643\n比起你右邊這個真的是令人很心寒啊右邊是你的公務預算針對勞動條件及就業平等業務工作計畫的預算也只編了9714萬那做這些媒體宣傳粉專大外宣就花了一億兩千五百萬捏\n\n12\n00:03:29,358 --> 00:03:33,446\n你覺得這樣子的做法正確嗎?你這個救安基金顧名思義就是要為了幫助國人就業創造國人的就業機會結果被部長挪用去做媒體宣傳的採購費\n\n13\n00:03:42,622 --> 00:03:45,923\n公務及基金預算案公務及基金預算案公務及基金預算案公務及基金預算案\n\n14\n00:04:08,470 --> 00:04:26,000\n大外宣或大內宣我不覺得因為真的還是有政策推廣讓大家能夠知道我們現在政策跟資源編列到哪裡可以怎麼讓大家得到需求的部分這部分我要先說明但是你是從111年到113年逐年不斷的上升喔對所以你看從3000多萬3812到最後是4500萬欸是所以我要說明是就像這幾年\n\n15\n00:04:33,294 --> 00:04:51,924\n所以你OK你覺得這些東西宣傳很有必要性但是你也該拿出你實際上對於就業安定有什麼指標是所以所以我我再補充一點是說但是對於這裡面有些宣傳的形式是不是有讓外界覺得觀感不佳的地方這當然我們現在正在檢討\n\n16\n00:04:52,984 --> 00:05:14,904\n所以我的意思是說這整筆所謂宣傳的基金費我覺得不宜所有就是說它就是叫做大外宣大內宣我覺得不宜還是有必要性可是就裡面的項目的形式該檢討的部分我們現在也正在檢討中好那這件事情最荒謬就是我去查閱了您擔任第10屆立法委員的時候整整8個會期都在這邊衛黃委員會是\n\n17\n00:05:17,406 --> 00:05:25,072\n也就是編列這些預算的時候許民春部長在編列這些預算的時候你就在這邊擔任監督者的角色喔當了八個會期喔你那個時候就沒有監督法或者是你那個時候覺得OK這些都很合理結果現在呢你還要回來抓漏欸你不覺得這整件事很荒謬嗎\n\n18\n00:05:38,702 --> 00:05:51,616\n呃跟成員說明我當然我現在是在勞動部長的角色來去處理我該面對該我該面對該解決的問題所以我現在很清楚知道我在這個時間點上面我的責任所以你的意思是說你以前\n\n19\n00:05:52,694 --> 00:06:06,975\n沒有抓出來你以前八個會期都沒有看出來但是你現在看出來了你是這個意思嗎我覺得也不是這樣去引申的但我能說我現在是一個勞動部長的角色我就必須在我這個角色上面做好我現在必須面對問題的事情\n\n20\n00:06:09,266 --> 00:06:35,555\n所以你現在覺得你當時可能不夠嚴謹沒有看出這些預算的貓膩我覺得也不是這樣衍生的我覺得關於監督的部分我自己也很希望包括跟國會我們一起來做合作甚至接下來可能會有更多陸陸續續的資訊然後釋放出來就像我剛才說的讓管理的機制更監理化甚至某些部分資訊該必要的揭露\n\n21\n00:06:36,255 --> 00:06:59,293\n本席只是想告訴你看到這樣子的預算一邊是做媒體宣傳粉專1億2500萬一邊是認真的公務預算做勞動條件就業平等9714萬如果你把這些1.2億的血汗錢拿去提升不管是勞檢員的福利培訓或是減少你們非典型大戶勞動部聘任非典型員工不是很好嗎\n\n22\n00:07:01,735 --> 00:07:21,896\n這個就是關於勞檢員的工作跟福利我們現在其實也來看怎麼樣來重新檢視那怎麼樣該補充的該把它補上但是我覺得這兩件事不見得是直接的相關只要在這一筆預算上面有哪些項目真的有不同的地方全國人民都在等你對救安基金的檢討等你\n\n23\n00:07:23,557 --> 00:07:36,749\n當立委的時候通過的這些救安基金現在你要來檢討他大家都在看你要怎麼檢討再來下一個想問今年已經3月5月7月8月分別從第5次會議進展到第8次會議對於\n\n24\n00:07:38,690 --> 00:07:50,279\n外送工會跟外送平台業者以及勞動部三方對於還沒有訂定外送員專法以前的各項爭議問題的解決機制但是遲遲之前是每兩個月就會開一次會但第8次至今過了4個月遲遲都沒有再召開第9次會議你知道為什麼嗎?\n\n25\n00:08:01,809 --> 00:08:28,309\n就我所知12月中應該就會召開下一次第9次的會議了那這一次當然大家現在針對包括外送員的報酬包括停權包括定型化契約等等的議題都是現在大家最關注的議題那我也要求這個12月就應該盡速召開我知道您也蠻重視這樣子的議題因為第8次之前都是部內的司長出席那您會有意願出席第9次的會議來相挺外送員嗎\n\n26\n00:08:29,502 --> 00:08:57,881\n其實如果需要的狀況下其實我都不排斥可是我說類似在這平台重點是我覺得這裡面可能不是只是說挺或不挺的問題我們當然要站在外送員的勞動權益的角度出發但因為這涉及到不同的利害相關其實重點還是在溝通協調上的工作所以他們第8次到第9次其實有一個很大的爭議就是經濟補償方案嘛這個你也都很熟知嘛所以你有覺得在溝通協調的方式您現在有什麼有效的解方可以提出\n\n27\n00:08:59,042 --> 00:09:16,753\n對,剛剛陳委員講到的這個議題補償的方案的部分其實會是在第9次的平台會議裡面就會來處理這個問題所以您會有意願想要自己出席嗎?我來跟業務單位討論一下好不好但我是說勞動部整體來說對外送員的勞動權利的支持的立場這是我們很清楚的方向\n\n28\n00:09:17,733 --> 00:09:45,977\n好那我們就期待你的第9次會議再來中華電信近年來當然是非常的賺錢他也是這個交通部轉民營化的事業單位中央政府也是最大的股東剛剛我有聽您的業務報告您第7點第8點都講得非常好啊你要做這個勞資雙方協商的推手啊建立這個勞資雙方的平台等等結果您也知道現在中華電信的工會正在夜宿他們的總部嗎?是的當然嗯\n\n29\n00:09:47,170 --> 00:10:14,475\n所以我想請教部長的問題如果中華電信員工的訴求沒有太過分您有沒有什麼積極的舉動想要應援他們支持他們我其實因為那天他們的業術這個新聞開始出來後其實就已經跟業務單位說了當然現在他們可能會開始進行一些勞資方面的協商那哪些部分是勞動部可以協助我說我們當然需要踩在\n\n30\n00:10:15,015 --> 00:10:19,557\n因為你剛剛的報告寫得很清楚啊你說強化勞資協商能力這是勞動部的關鍵功能輔導及獎勵勞資雙方協商輔導獎勵勞資雙方簽訂團體協約落實勞資會議制度迅速有效勞資爭議處理這都是你剛剛講的\n\n31\n00:10:34,081 --> 00:10:56,324\n是。所以我說這個事情我們願意跟交通部來討論啦。那我們的立場當然是當然是會站在怎麼樣更大程度能夠協助工會跟勞工的角度作為我們表達想法的出發點。所以可能有一些工會的同仁現在正在看電視您也會扮演這個與陳士凱部長溝通的角色嗎?就是如果需要的話我們當然把當然需要\n\n32\n00:10:59,365 --> 00:11:22,890\n我現在說的意思是說那個我現在意思是說其實我都跟我不能同仁說我們不會說現在就是一個勞資協商讓他們自己去協商在這個協商的過程裡面哪些事情是勞動部可以協助的我們就應該來協助我剛已經念給你聽了您會做好吧您剛講的這些您的關鍵功能今天報告列了四五項是\n\n33\n00:11:24,093 --> 00:11:37,400\n我們希望盡力的做好啦但因為這確實涉及到不同的利害相關方之間的事情所以我們會在我們能夠扮演的角色上面盡力的協助所以有機會的話您會願意過去中華電信公會那邊為他們打氣嗎我們會盡力的來協助啦好謝謝對好謝謝好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4014\t5995\t主席、委員還有各位官員大家好。想請洪部長。有請洪部長。部長請問你有聽聞。 早安。你有聽聞今天包含桃園市總產業總工會還有很多勞團要聯合起來絕食100個小時嗎?\n5995\t6895\t有我有在我有看到相關的訊息。那你也知道他們有針對三大議題要請您回應嗎?\n6895\t7215\t是我在在他們的資訊裡面有看到。\n34281\t48756\t全國的勞工已經氣炸了對於許民春對於何佩珊對於謝怡榮無比的憤怒因為你們本該是捍衛全國勞工的勞動部結果最近是揮霍公堂被看破手腳\n49537\t77871\t所以他們有三個要回應的第一個是全面檢討基金的用途包括過相關部會如實的揭露第二個是強化基金審查委員會成員的專業度並且有第三方建立真正外部監督的機制還有第三對於勞動部長久以來遲遲沒有回應的重大勞動議題比如說增加國定假日等等希望藉由絕食讓你聽到他們的聲音你現在初步有想要利用這樣子的場合回應嗎\n79731\t92716\t其實這裡面幾個訴求那尤其我們看到針對救安基金的部分其實我們上週其實就已經開始非常非常密切的在檢討了那甚至也開始邀請一些外部有相關專業的專家來給我們建議\n96357\t117992\t那我們目前我自己也認為就將救安基金整體的管理要朝向更監理化的方向來做檢討跟調整那我自己也認為現在的整個救安軍管理機制確實是有調整的空間所以當也提到說包括像現在救安基金的收支管理辦法其實也在整體檢討的範圍內\n120723\t133695\t所以您會到現場回應還是你在這邊回應或是等一下跟媒體朋友做回應我覺得我沒有其實對我們來說這些事情我們就是要努力大力的往前做把事情做出來才是最好的回應的方式\n134974\t147001\t好那再來我們就看一下吼你的這個救安基金現在是為什麼大家會非常的生氣我們先看左邊的這個圖你看一下勞動部從111年112年113年我已經幫你整理出來了我們看到這個勞動部分專經營管理網路行銷還有文宣媒體通路採購案簡單來說就是大內宣大外宣吶吼\n163342\t187294\t一百一十一年從救安基金出了二十萬然後一百八十六萬好零零總總的我先幫你加起來因為這些項目連續三年都有全部加起來是一億兩千五百四十四萬六四八零元可能演唱會也包含在裡面因為是媒體通路採購案嘛\n188815\t195643\t比起你右邊這個真的是令人很心寒啊右邊是你的公務預算針對勞動條件及就業平等業務工作計畫的預算也只編了9714萬那做這些媒體宣傳粉專大外宣就花了一億兩千五百萬捏\n209358\t213446\t你覺得這樣子的做法正確嗎?你這個救安基金顧名思義就是要為了幫助國人就業創造國人的就業機會結果被部長挪用去做媒體宣傳的採購費\n222622\t225923\t公務及基金預算案公務及基金預算案公務及基金預算案公務及基金預算案\n248470\t266000\t大外宣或大內宣我不覺得因為真的還是有政策推廣讓大家能夠知道我們現在政策跟資源編列到哪裡可以怎麼讓大家得到需求的部分這部分我要先說明但是你是從111年到113年逐年不斷的上升喔對所以你看從3000多萬3812到最後是4500萬欸是所以我要說明是就像這幾年\n273294\t291924\t所以你OK你覺得這些東西宣傳很有必要性但是你也該拿出你實際上對於就業安定有什麼指標是所以所以我我再補充一點是說但是對於這裡面有些宣傳的形式是不是有讓外界覺得觀感不佳的地方這當然我們現在正在檢討\n292984\t314904\t所以我的意思是說這整筆所謂宣傳的基金費我覺得不宜所有就是說它就是叫做大外宣大內宣我覺得不宜還是有必要性可是就裡面的項目的形式該檢討的部分我們現在也正在檢討中好那這件事情最荒謬就是我去查閱了您擔任第10屆立法委員的時候整整8個會期都在這邊衛黃委員會是\n317406\t325072\t也就是編列這些預算的時候許民春部長在編列這些預算的時候你就在這邊擔任監督者的角色喔當了八個會期喔你那個時候就沒有監督法或者是你那個時候覺得OK這些都很合理結果現在呢你還要回來抓漏欸你不覺得這整件事很荒謬嗎\n338702\t351616\t呃跟成員說明我當然我現在是在勞動部長的角色來去處理我該面對該我該面對該解決的問題所以我現在很清楚知道我在這個時間點上面我的責任所以你的意思是說你以前\n352694\t366975\t沒有抓出來你以前八個會期都沒有看出來但是你現在看出來了你是這個意思嗎我覺得也不是這樣去引申的但我能說我現在是一個勞動部長的角色我就必須在我這個角色上面做好我現在必須面對問題的事情\n369266\t395555\t所以你現在覺得你當時可能不夠嚴謹沒有看出這些預算的貓膩我覺得也不是這樣衍生的我覺得關於監督的部分我自己也很希望包括跟國會我們一起來做合作甚至接下來可能會有更多陸陸續續的資訊然後釋放出來就像我剛才說的讓管理的機制更監理化甚至某些部分資訊該必要的揭露\n396255\t419293\t本席只是想告訴你看到這樣子的預算一邊是做媒體宣傳粉專1億2500萬一邊是認真的公務預算做勞動條件就業平等9714萬如果你把這些1.2億的血汗錢拿去提升不管是勞檢員的福利培訓或是減少你們非典型大戶勞動部聘任非典型員工不是很好嗎\n421735\t441896\t這個就是關於勞檢員的工作跟福利我們現在其實也來看怎麼樣來重新檢視那怎麼樣該補充的該把它補上但是我覺得這兩件事不見得是直接的相關只要在這一筆預算上面有哪些項目真的有不同的地方全國人民都在等你對救安基金的檢討等你\n443557\t456749\t當立委的時候通過的這些救安基金現在你要來檢討他大家都在看你要怎麼檢討再來下一個想問今年已經3月5月7月8月分別從第5次會議進展到第8次會議對於\n458690\t470279\t外送工會跟外送平台業者以及勞動部三方對於還沒有訂定外送員專法以前的各項爭議問題的解決機制但是遲遲之前是每兩個月就會開一次會但第8次至今過了4個月遲遲都沒有再召開第9次會議你知道為什麼嗎?\n481809\t508309\t就我所知12月中應該就會召開下一次第9次的會議了那這一次當然大家現在針對包括外送員的報酬包括停權包括定型化契約等等的議題都是現在大家最關注的議題那我也要求這個12月就應該盡速召開我知道您也蠻重視這樣子的議題因為第8次之前都是部內的司長出席那您會有意願出席第9次的會議來相挺外送員嗎\n509502\t537881\t其實如果需要的狀況下其實我都不排斥可是我說類似在這平台重點是我覺得這裡面可能不是只是說挺或不挺的問題我們當然要站在外送員的勞動權益的角度出發但因為這涉及到不同的利害相關其實重點還是在溝通協調上的工作所以他們第8次到第9次其實有一個很大的爭議就是經濟補償方案嘛這個你也都很熟知嘛所以你有覺得在溝通協調的方式您現在有什麼有效的解方可以提出\n539042\t556753\t對,剛剛陳委員講到的這個議題補償的方案的部分其實會是在第9次的平台會議裡面就會來處理這個問題所以您會有意願想要自己出席嗎?我來跟業務單位討論一下好不好但我是說勞動部整體來說對外送員的勞動權利的支持的立場這是我們很清楚的方向\n557733\t585977\t好那我們就期待你的第9次會議再來中華電信近年來當然是非常的賺錢他也是這個交通部轉民營化的事業單位中央政府也是最大的股東剛剛我有聽您的業務報告您第7點第8點都講得非常好啊你要做這個勞資雙方協商的推手啊建立這個勞資雙方的平台等等結果您也知道現在中華電信的工會正在夜宿他們的總部嗎?是的當然嗯\n587170\t614475\t所以我想請教部長的問題如果中華電信員工的訴求沒有太過分您有沒有什麼積極的舉動想要應援他們支持他們我其實因為那天他們的業術這個新聞開始出來後其實就已經跟業務單位說了當然現在他們可能會開始進行一些勞資方面的協商那哪些部分是勞動部可以協助我說我們當然需要踩在\n615015\t619557\t因為你剛剛的報告寫得很清楚啊你說強化勞資協商能力這是勞動部的關鍵功能輔導及獎勵勞資雙方協商輔導獎勵勞資雙方簽訂團體協約落實勞資會議制度迅速有效勞資爭議處理這都是你剛剛講的\n634081\t656324\t是。所以我說這個事情我們願意跟交通部來討論啦。那我們的立場當然是當然是會站在怎麼樣更大程度能夠協助工會跟勞工的角度作為我們表達想法的出發點。所以可能有一些工會的同仁現在正在看電視您也會扮演這個與陳士凱部長溝通的角色嗎?就是如果需要的話我們當然把當然需要\n659365\t682890\t我現在說的意思是說那個我現在意思是說其實我都跟我不能同仁說我們不會說現在就是一個勞資協商讓他們自己去協商在這個協商的過程裡面哪些事情是勞動部可以協助的我們就應該來協助我剛已經念給你聽了您會做好吧您剛講的這些您的關鍵功能今天報告列了四五項是\n684093\t697400\t我們希望盡力的做好啦但因為這確實涉及到不同的利害相關方之間的事情所以我們會在我們能夠扮演的角色上面盡力的協助所以有機會的話您會願意過去中華電信公會那邊為他們打氣嗎我們會盡力的來協助啦好謝謝對好謝謝好謝謝\n","txt":"主席、委員還有各位官員大家好。想請洪部長。有請洪部長。部長請問你有聽聞。 早安。你有聽聞今天包含桃園市總產業總工會還有很多勞團要聯合起來絕食100個小時嗎?\n有我有在我有看到相關的訊息。那你也知道他們有針對三大議題要請您回應嗎?\n是我在在他們的資訊裡面有看到。\n全國的勞工已經氣炸了對於許民春對於何佩珊對於謝怡榮無比的憤怒因為你們本該是捍衛全國勞工的勞動部結果最近是揮霍公堂被看破手腳\n所以他們有三個要回應的第一個是全面檢討基金的用途包括過相關部會如實的揭露第二個是強化基金審查委員會成員的專業度並且有第三方建立真正外部監督的機制還有第三對於勞動部長久以來遲遲沒有回應的重大勞動議題比如說增加國定假日等等希望藉由絕食讓你聽到他們的聲音你現在初步有想要利用這樣子的場合回應嗎\n其實這裡面幾個訴求那尤其我們看到針對救安基金的部分其實我們上週其實就已經開始非常非常密切的在檢討了那甚至也開始邀請一些外部有相關專業的專家來給我們建議\n那我們目前我自己也認為就將救安基金整體的管理要朝向更監理化的方向來做檢討跟調整那我自己也認為現在的整個救安軍管理機制確實是有調整的空間所以當也提到說包括像現在救安基金的收支管理辦法其實也在整體檢討的範圍內\n所以您會到現場回應還是你在這邊回應或是等一下跟媒體朋友做回應我覺得我沒有其實對我們來說這些事情我們就是要努力大力的往前做把事情做出來才是最好的回應的方式\n好那再來我們就看一下吼你的這個救安基金現在是為什麼大家會非常的生氣我們先看左邊的這個圖你看一下勞動部從111年112年113年我已經幫你整理出來了我們看到這個勞動部分專經營管理網路行銷還有文宣媒體通路採購案簡單來說就是大內宣大外宣吶吼\n一百一十一年從救安基金出了二十萬然後一百八十六萬好零零總總的我先幫你加起來因為這些項目連續三年都有全部加起來是一億兩千五百四十四萬六四八零元可能演唱會也包含在裡面因為是媒體通路採購案嘛\n比起你右邊這個真的是令人很心寒啊右邊是你的公務預算針對勞動條件及就業平等業務工作計畫的預算也只編了9714萬那做這些媒體宣傳粉專大外宣就花了一億兩千五百萬捏\n你覺得這樣子的做法正確嗎?你這個救安基金顧名思義就是要為了幫助國人就業創造國人的就業機會結果被部長挪用去做媒體宣傳的採購費\n公務及基金預算案公務及基金預算案公務及基金預算案公務及基金預算案\n大外宣或大內宣我不覺得因為真的還是有政策推廣讓大家能夠知道我們現在政策跟資源編列到哪裡可以怎麼讓大家得到需求的部分這部分我要先說明但是你是從111年到113年逐年不斷的上升喔對所以你看從3000多萬3812到最後是4500萬欸是所以我要說明是就像這幾年\n所以你OK你覺得這些東西宣傳很有必要性但是你也該拿出你實際上對於就業安定有什麼指標是所以所以我我再補充一點是說但是對於這裡面有些宣傳的形式是不是有讓外界覺得觀感不佳的地方這當然我們現在正在檢討\n所以我的意思是說這整筆所謂宣傳的基金費我覺得不宜所有就是說它就是叫做大外宣大內宣我覺得不宜還是有必要性可是就裡面的項目的形式該檢討的部分我們現在也正在檢討中好那這件事情最荒謬就是我去查閱了您擔任第10屆立法委員的時候整整8個會期都在這邊衛黃委員會是\n也就是編列這些預算的時候許民春部長在編列這些預算的時候你就在這邊擔任監督者的角色喔當了八個會期喔你那個時候就沒有監督法或者是你那個時候覺得OK這些都很合理結果現在呢你還要回來抓漏欸你不覺得這整件事很荒謬嗎\n呃跟成員說明我當然我現在是在勞動部長的角色來去處理我該面對該我該面對該解決的問題所以我現在很清楚知道我在這個時間點上面我的責任所以你的意思是說你以前\n沒有抓出來你以前八個會期都沒有看出來但是你現在看出來了你是這個意思嗎我覺得也不是這樣去引申的但我能說我現在是一個勞動部長的角色我就必須在我這個角色上面做好我現在必須面對問題的事情\n所以你現在覺得你當時可能不夠嚴謹沒有看出這些預算的貓膩我覺得也不是這樣衍生的我覺得關於監督的部分我自己也很希望包括跟國會我們一起來做合作甚至接下來可能會有更多陸陸續續的資訊然後釋放出來就像我剛才說的讓管理的機制更監理化甚至某些部分資訊該必要的揭露\n本席只是想告訴你看到這樣子的預算一邊是做媒體宣傳粉專1億2500萬一邊是認真的公務預算做勞動條件就業平等9714萬如果你把這些1.2億的血汗錢拿去提升不管是勞檢員的福利培訓或是減少你們非典型大戶勞動部聘任非典型員工不是很好嗎\n這個就是關於勞檢員的工作跟福利我們現在其實也來看怎麼樣來重新檢視那怎麼樣該補充的該把它補上但是我覺得這兩件事不見得是直接的相關只要在這一筆預算上面有哪些項目真的有不同的地方全國人民都在等你對救安基金的檢討等你\n當立委的時候通過的這些救安基金現在你要來檢討他大家都在看你要怎麼檢討再來下一個想問今年已經3月5月7月8月分別從第5次會議進展到第8次會議對於\n外送工會跟外送平台業者以及勞動部三方對於還沒有訂定外送員專法以前的各項爭議問題的解決機制但是遲遲之前是每兩個月就會開一次會但第8次至今過了4個月遲遲都沒有再召開第9次會議你知道為什麼嗎?\n就我所知12月中應該就會召開下一次第9次的會議了那這一次當然大家現在針對包括外送員的報酬包括停權包括定型化契約等等的議題都是現在大家最關注的議題那我也要求這個12月就應該盡速召開我知道您也蠻重視這樣子的議題因為第8次之前都是部內的司長出席那您會有意願出席第9次的會議來相挺外送員嗎\n其實如果需要的狀況下其實我都不排斥可是我說類似在這平台重點是我覺得這裡面可能不是只是說挺或不挺的問題我們當然要站在外送員的勞動權益的角度出發但因為這涉及到不同的利害相關其實重點還是在溝通協調上的工作所以他們第8次到第9次其實有一個很大的爭議就是經濟補償方案嘛這個你也都很熟知嘛所以你有覺得在溝通協調的方式您現在有什麼有效的解方可以提出\n對,剛剛陳委員講到的這個議題補償的方案的部分其實會是在第9次的平台會議裡面就會來處理這個問題所以您會有意願想要自己出席嗎?我來跟業務單位討論一下好不好但我是說勞動部整體來說對外送員的勞動權利的支持的立場這是我們很清楚的方向\n好那我們就期待你的第9次會議再來中華電信近年來當然是非常的賺錢他也是這個交通部轉民營化的事業單位中央政府也是最大的股東剛剛我有聽您的業務報告您第7點第8點都講得非常好啊你要做這個勞資雙方協商的推手啊建立這個勞資雙方的平台等等結果您也知道現在中華電信的工會正在夜宿他們的總部嗎?是的當然嗯\n所以我想請教部長的問題如果中華電信員工的訴求沒有太過分您有沒有什麼積極的舉動想要應援他們支持他們我其實因為那天他們的業術這個新聞開始出來後其實就已經跟業務單位說了當然現在他們可能會開始進行一些勞資方面的協商那哪些部分是勞動部可以協助我說我們當然需要踩在\n因為你剛剛的報告寫得很清楚啊你說強化勞資協商能力這是勞動部的關鍵功能輔導及獎勵勞資雙方協商輔導獎勵勞資雙方簽訂團體協約落實勞資會議制度迅速有效勞資爭議處理這都是你剛剛講的\n是。所以我說這個事情我們願意跟交通部來討論啦。那我們的立場當然是當然是會站在怎麼樣更大程度能夠協助工會跟勞工的角度作為我們表達想法的出發點。所以可能有一些工會的同仁現在正在看電視您也會扮演這個與陳士凱部長溝通的角色嗎?就是如果需要的話我們當然把當然需要\n我現在說的意思是說那個我現在意思是說其實我都跟我不能同仁說我們不會說現在就是一個勞資協商讓他們自己去協商在這個協商的過程裡面哪些事情是勞動部可以協助的我們就應該來協助我剛已經念給你聽了您會做好吧您剛講的這些您的關鍵功能今天報告列了四五項是\n我們希望盡力的做好啦但因為這確實涉及到不同的利害相關方之間的事情所以我們會在我們能夠扮演的角色上面盡力的協助所以有機會的話您會願意過去中華電信公會那邊為他們打氣嗎我們會盡力的來協助啦好謝謝對好謝謝好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.014 --> 00:05.995\n主席、委員還有各位官員大家好。想請洪部長。有請洪部長。部長請問你有聽聞。早安。你有聽聞今天包含桃園市總產業總工會還有很多勞團要聯合起來絕食100個小時嗎?\n\n00:05.995 --> 00:06.895\n有我有在我有看到相關的訊息。那你也知道他們有針對三大議題要請您回應嗎?\n\n00:06.895 --> 00:07.215\n是我在在他們的資訊裡面有看到。\n\n00:34.281 --> 00:48.756\n全國的勞工已經氣炸了對於許民春對於何佩珊對於謝怡榮無比的憤怒因為你們本該是捍衛全國勞工的勞動部結果最近是揮霍公堂被看破手腳\n\n00:49.537 --> 01:17.871\n所以他們有三個要回應的第一個是全面檢討基金的用途包括過相關部會如實的揭露第二個是強化基金審查委員會成員的專業度並且有第三方建立真正外部監督的機制還有第三對於勞動部長久以來遲遲沒有回應的重大勞動議題比如說增加國定假日等等希望藉由絕食讓你聽到他們的聲音你現在初步有想要利用這樣子的場合回應嗎\n\n01:19.731 --> 01:32.716\n其實這裡面幾個訴求那尤其我們看到針對救安基金的部分其實我們上週其實就已經開始非常非常密切的在檢討了那甚至也開始邀請一些外部有相關專業的專家來給我們建議\n\n01:36.357 --> 01:57.992\n那我們目前我自己也認為就將救安基金整體的管理要朝向更監理化的方向來做檢討跟調整那我自己也認為現在的整個救安軍管理機制確實是有調整的空間所以當也提到說包括像現在救安基金的收支管理辦法其實也在整體檢討的範圍內\n\n02:00.723 --> 02:13.695\n所以您會到現場回應還是你在這邊回應或是等一下跟媒體朋友做回應我覺得我沒有其實對我們來說這些事情我們就是要努力大力的往前做把事情做出來才是最好的回應的方式\n\n02:14.974 --> 02:27.001\n好那再來我們就看一下吼你的這個救安基金現在是為什麼大家會非常的生氣我們先看左邊的這個圖你看一下勞動部從111年112年113年我已經幫你整理出來了我們看到這個勞動部分專經營管理網路行銷還有文宣媒體通路採購案簡單來說就是大內宣大外宣吶吼\n\n02:43.342 --> 03:07.294\n一百一十一年從救安基金出了二十萬然後一百八十六萬好零零總總的我先幫你加起來因為這些項目連續三年都有全部加起來是一億兩千五百四十四萬六四八零元可能演唱會也包含在裡面因為是媒體通路採購案嘛\n\n03:08.815 --> 03:15.643\n比起你右邊這個真的是令人很心寒啊右邊是你的公務預算針對勞動條件及就業平等業務工作計畫的預算也只編了9714萬那做這些媒體宣傳粉專大外宣就花了一億兩千五百萬捏\n\n03:29.358 --> 03:33.446\n你覺得這樣子的做法正確嗎?你這個救安基金顧名思義就是要為了幫助國人就業創造國人的就業機會結果被部長挪用去做媒體宣傳的採購費\n\n03:42.622 --> 03:45.923\n公務及基金預算案公務及基金預算案公務及基金預算案公務及基金預算案\n\n04:08.470 --> 04:26.000\n大外宣或大內宣我不覺得因為真的還是有政策推廣讓大家能夠知道我們現在政策跟資源編列到哪裡可以怎麼讓大家得到需求的部分這部分我要先說明但是你是從111年到113年逐年不斷的上升喔對所以你看從3000多萬3812到最後是4500萬欸是所以我要說明是就像這幾年\n\n04:33.294 --> 04:51.924\n所以你OK你覺得這些東西宣傳很有必要性但是你也該拿出你實際上對於就業安定有什麼指標是所以所以我我再補充一點是說但是對於這裡面有些宣傳的形式是不是有讓外界覺得觀感不佳的地方這當然我們現在正在檢討\n\n04:52.984 --> 05:14.904\n所以我的意思是說這整筆所謂宣傳的基金費我覺得不宜所有就是說它就是叫做大外宣大內宣我覺得不宜還是有必要性可是就裡面的項目的形式該檢討的部分我們現在也正在檢討中好那這件事情最荒謬就是我去查閱了您擔任第10屆立法委員的時候整整8個會期都在這邊衛黃委員會是\n\n05:17.406 --> 05:25.072\n也就是編列這些預算的時候許民春部長在編列這些預算的時候你就在這邊擔任監督者的角色喔當了八個會期喔你那個時候就沒有監督法或者是你那個時候覺得OK這些都很合理結果現在呢你還要回來抓漏欸你不覺得這整件事很荒謬嗎\n\n05:38.702 --> 05:51.616\n呃跟成員說明我當然我現在是在勞動部長的角色來去處理我該面對該我該面對該解決的問題所以我現在很清楚知道我在這個時間點上面我的責任所以你的意思是說你以前\n\n05:52.694 --> 06:06.975\n沒有抓出來你以前八個會期都沒有看出來但是你現在看出來了你是這個意思嗎我覺得也不是這樣去引申的但我能說我現在是一個勞動部長的角色我就必須在我這個角色上面做好我現在必須面對問題的事情\n\n06:09.266 --> 06:35.555\n所以你現在覺得你當時可能不夠嚴謹沒有看出這些預算的貓膩我覺得也不是這樣衍生的我覺得關於監督的部分我自己也很希望包括跟國會我們一起來做合作甚至接下來可能會有更多陸陸續續的資訊然後釋放出來就像我剛才說的讓管理的機制更監理化甚至某些部分資訊該必要的揭露\n\n06:36.255 --> 06:59.293\n本席只是想告訴你看到這樣子的預算一邊是做媒體宣傳粉專1億2500萬一邊是認真的公務預算做勞動條件就業平等9714萬如果你把這些1.2億的血汗錢拿去提升不管是勞檢員的福利培訓或是減少你們非典型大戶勞動部聘任非典型員工不是很好嗎\n\n07:01.735 --> 07:21.896\n這個就是關於勞檢員的工作跟福利我們現在其實也來看怎麼樣來重新檢視那怎麼樣該補充的該把它補上但是我覺得這兩件事不見得是直接的相關只要在這一筆預算上面有哪些項目真的有不同的地方全國人民都在等你對救安基金的檢討等你\n\n07:23.557 --> 07:36.749\n當立委的時候通過的這些救安基金現在你要來檢討他大家都在看你要怎麼檢討再來下一個想問今年已經3月5月7月8月分別從第5次會議進展到第8次會議對於\n\n07:38.690 --> 07:50.279\n外送工會跟外送平台業者以及勞動部三方對於還沒有訂定外送員專法以前的各項爭議問題的解決機制但是遲遲之前是每兩個月就會開一次會但第8次至今過了4個月遲遲都沒有再召開第9次會議你知道為什麼嗎?\n\n08:01.809 --> 08:28.309\n就我所知12月中應該就會召開下一次第9次的會議了那這一次當然大家現在針對包括外送員的報酬包括停權包括定型化契約等等的議題都是現在大家最關注的議題那我也要求這個12月就應該盡速召開我知道您也蠻重視這樣子的議題因為第8次之前都是部內的司長出席那您會有意願出席第9次的會議來相挺外送員嗎\n\n08:29.502 --> 08:57.881\n其實如果需要的狀況下其實我都不排斥可是我說類似在這平台重點是我覺得這裡面可能不是只是說挺或不挺的問題我們當然要站在外送員的勞動權益的角度出發但因為這涉及到不同的利害相關其實重點還是在溝通協調上的工作所以他們第8次到第9次其實有一個很大的爭議就是經濟補償方案嘛這個你也都很熟知嘛所以你有覺得在溝通協調的方式您現在有什麼有效的解方可以提出\n\n08:59.042 --> 09:16.753\n對,剛剛陳委員講到的這個議題補償的方案的部分其實會是在第9次的平台會議裡面就會來處理這個問題所以您會有意願想要自己出席嗎?我來跟業務單位討論一下好不好但我是說勞動部整體來說對外送員的勞動權利的支持的立場這是我們很清楚的方向\n\n09:17.733 --> 09:45.977\n好那我們就期待你的第9次會議再來中華電信近年來當然是非常的賺錢他也是這個交通部轉民營化的事業單位中央政府也是最大的股東剛剛我有聽您的業務報告您第7點第8點都講得非常好啊你要做這個勞資雙方協商的推手啊建立這個勞資雙方的平台等等結果您也知道現在中華電信的工會正在夜宿他們的總部嗎?是的當然嗯\n\n09:47.170 --> 10:14.475\n所以我想請教部長的問題如果中華電信員工的訴求沒有太過分您有沒有什麼積極的舉動想要應援他們支持他們我其實因為那天他們的業術這個新聞開始出來後其實就已經跟業務單位說了當然現在他們可能會開始進行一些勞資方面的協商那哪些部分是勞動部可以協助我說我們當然需要踩在\n\n10:15.015 --> 10:19.557\n因為你剛剛的報告寫得很清楚啊你說強化勞資協商能力這是勞動部的關鍵功能輔導及獎勵勞資雙方協商輔導獎勵勞資雙方簽訂團體協約落實勞資會議制度迅速有效勞資爭議處理這都是你剛剛講的\n\n10:34.081 --> 10:56.324\n是。所以我說這個事情我們願意跟交通部來討論啦。那我們的立場當然是當然是會站在怎麼樣更大程度能夠協助工會跟勞工的角度作為我們表達想法的出發點。所以可能有一些工會的同仁現在正在看電視您也會扮演這個與陳士凱部長溝通的角色嗎?就是如果需要的話我們當然把當然需要\n\n10:59.365 --> 11:22.890\n我現在說的意思是說那個我現在意思是說其實我都跟我不能同仁說我們不會說現在就是一個勞資協商讓他們自己去協商在這個協商的過程裡面哪些事情是勞動部可以協助的我們就應該來協助我剛已經念給你聽了您會做好吧您剛講的這些您的關鍵功能今天報告列了四五項是\n\n11:24.093 --> 11:37.400\n我們希望盡力的做好啦但因為這確實涉及到不同的利害相關方之間的事情所以我們會在我們能夠扮演的角色上面盡力的協助所以有機會的話您會願意過去中華電信公會那邊為他們打氣嗎我們會盡力的來協助啦好謝謝對好謝謝好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.014,"end":5.995,"text":"主席、委員還有各位官員大家好。想請洪部長。有請洪部長。部長請問你有聽聞。 早安。你有聽聞今天包含桃園市總產業總工會還有很多勞團要聯合起來絕食100個小時嗎?"},{"start":5.995,"end":6.895,"text":"有我有在我有看到相關的訊息。那你也知道他們有針對三大議題要請您回應嗎?"},{"start":6.895,"end":7.215,"text":"是我在在他們的資訊裡面有看到。"},{"start":34.281,"end":48.756,"text":"全國的勞工已經氣炸了對於許民春對於何佩珊對於謝怡榮無比的憤怒因為你們本該是捍衛全國勞工的勞動部結果最近是揮霍公堂被看破手腳"},{"start":49.537,"end":77.871,"text":"所以他們有三個要回應的第一個是全面檢討基金的用途包括過相關部會如實的揭露第二個是強化基金審查委員會成員的專業度並且有第三方建立真正外部監督的機制還有第三對於勞動部長久以來遲遲沒有回應的重大勞動議題比如說增加國定假日等等希望藉由絕食讓你聽到他們的聲音你現在初步有想要利用這樣子的場合回應嗎"},{"start":79.731,"end":92.716,"text":"其實這裡面幾個訴求那尤其我們看到針對救安基金的部分其實我們上週其實就已經開始非常非常密切的在檢討了那甚至也開始邀請一些外部有相關專業的專家來給我們建議"},{"start":96.357,"end":117.992,"text":"那我們目前我自己也認為就將救安基金整體的管理要朝向更監理化的方向來做檢討跟調整那我自己也認為現在的整個救安軍管理機制確實是有調整的空間所以當也提到說包括像現在救安基金的收支管理辦法其實也在整體檢討的範圍內"},{"start":120.723,"end":133.695,"text":"所以您會到現場回應還是你在這邊回應或是等一下跟媒體朋友做回應我覺得我沒有其實對我們來說這些事情我們就是要努力大力的往前做把事情做出來才是最好的回應的方式"},{"start":134.974,"end":147.001,"text":"好那再來我們就看一下吼你的這個救安基金現在是為什麼大家會非常的生氣我們先看左邊的這個圖你看一下勞動部從111年112年113年我已經幫你整理出來了我們看到這個勞動部分專經營管理網路行銷還有文宣媒體通路採購案簡單來說就是大內宣大外宣吶吼"},{"start":163.342,"end":187.294,"text":"一百一十一年從救安基金出了二十萬然後一百八十六萬好零零總總的我先幫你加起來因為這些項目連續三年都有全部加起來是一億兩千五百四十四萬六四八零元可能演唱會也包含在裡面因為是媒體通路採購案嘛"},{"start":188.815,"end":195.643,"text":"比起你右邊這個真的是令人很心寒啊右邊是你的公務預算針對勞動條件及就業平等業務工作計畫的預算也只編了9714萬那做這些媒體宣傳粉專大外宣就花了一億兩千五百萬捏"},{"start":209.358,"end":213.446,"text":"你覺得這樣子的做法正確嗎?你這個救安基金顧名思義就是要為了幫助國人就業創造國人的就業機會結果被部長挪用去做媒體宣傳的採購費"},{"start":222.622,"end":225.923,"text":"公務及基金預算案公務及基金預算案公務及基金預算案公務及基金預算案"},{"start":248.47,"end":266,"text":"大外宣或大內宣我不覺得因為真的還是有政策推廣讓大家能夠知道我們現在政策跟資源編列到哪裡可以怎麼讓大家得到需求的部分這部分我要先說明但是你是從111年到113年逐年不斷的上升喔對所以你看從3000多萬3812到最後是4500萬欸是所以我要說明是就像這幾年"},{"start":273.294,"end":291.924,"text":"所以你OK你覺得這些東西宣傳很有必要性但是你也該拿出你實際上對於就業安定有什麼指標是所以所以我我再補充一點是說但是對於這裡面有些宣傳的形式是不是有讓外界覺得觀感不佳的地方這當然我們現在正在檢討"},{"start":292.984,"end":314.904,"text":"所以我的意思是說這整筆所謂宣傳的基金費我覺得不宜所有就是說它就是叫做大外宣大內宣我覺得不宜還是有必要性可是就裡面的項目的形式該檢討的部分我們現在也正在檢討中好那這件事情最荒謬就是我去查閱了您擔任第10屆立法委員的時候整整8個會期都在這邊衛黃委員會是"},{"start":317.406,"end":325.072,"text":"也就是編列這些預算的時候許民春部長在編列這些預算的時候你就在這邊擔任監督者的角色喔當了八個會期喔你那個時候就沒有監督法或者是你那個時候覺得OK這些都很合理結果現在呢你還要回來抓漏欸你不覺得這整件事很荒謬嗎"},{"start":338.702,"end":351.616,"text":"呃跟成員說明我當然我現在是在勞動部長的角色來去處理我該面對該我該面對該解決的問題所以我現在很清楚知道我在這個時間點上面我的責任所以你的意思是說你以前"},{"start":352.694,"end":366.975,"text":"沒有抓出來你以前八個會期都沒有看出來但是你現在看出來了你是這個意思嗎我覺得也不是這樣去引申的但我能說我現在是一個勞動部長的角色我就必須在我這個角色上面做好我現在必須面對問題的事情"},{"start":369.266,"end":395.555,"text":"所以你現在覺得你當時可能不夠嚴謹沒有看出這些預算的貓膩我覺得也不是這樣衍生的我覺得關於監督的部分我自己也很希望包括跟國會我們一起來做合作甚至接下來可能會有更多陸陸續續的資訊然後釋放出來就像我剛才說的讓管理的機制更監理化甚至某些部分資訊該必要的揭露"},{"start":396.255,"end":419.293,"text":"本席只是想告訴你看到這樣子的預算一邊是做媒體宣傳粉專1億2500萬一邊是認真的公務預算做勞動條件就業平等9714萬如果你把這些1.2億的血汗錢拿去提升不管是勞檢員的福利培訓或是減少你們非典型大戶勞動部聘任非典型員工不是很好嗎"},{"start":421.735,"end":441.896,"text":"這個就是關於勞檢員的工作跟福利我們現在其實也來看怎麼樣來重新檢視那怎麼樣該補充的該把它補上但是我覺得這兩件事不見得是直接的相關只要在這一筆預算上面有哪些項目真的有不同的地方全國人民都在等你對救安基金的檢討等你"},{"start":443.557,"end":456.749,"text":"當立委的時候通過的這些救安基金現在你要來檢討他大家都在看你要怎麼檢討再來下一個想問今年已經3月5月7月8月分別從第5次會議進展到第8次會議對於"},{"start":458.69,"end":470.279,"text":"外送工會跟外送平台業者以及勞動部三方對於還沒有訂定外送員專法以前的各項爭議問題的解決機制但是遲遲之前是每兩個月就會開一次會但第8次至今過了4個月遲遲都沒有再召開第9次會議你知道為什麼嗎?"},{"start":481.809,"end":508.309,"text":"就我所知12月中應該就會召開下一次第9次的會議了那這一次當然大家現在針對包括外送員的報酬包括停權包括定型化契約等等的議題都是現在大家最關注的議題那我也要求這個12月就應該盡速召開我知道您也蠻重視這樣子的議題因為第8次之前都是部內的司長出席那您會有意願出席第9次的會議來相挺外送員嗎"},{"start":509.502,"end":537.881,"text":"其實如果需要的狀況下其實我都不排斥可是我說類似在這平台重點是我覺得這裡面可能不是只是說挺或不挺的問題我們當然要站在外送員的勞動權益的角度出發但因為這涉及到不同的利害相關其實重點還是在溝通協調上的工作所以他們第8次到第9次其實有一個很大的爭議就是經濟補償方案嘛這個你也都很熟知嘛所以你有覺得在溝通協調的方式您現在有什麼有效的解方可以提出"},{"start":539.042,"end":556.753,"text":"對,剛剛陳委員講到的這個議題補償的方案的部分其實會是在第9次的平台會議裡面就會來處理這個問題所以您會有意願想要自己出席嗎?我來跟業務單位討論一下好不好但我是說勞動部整體來說對外送員的勞動權利的支持的立場這是我們很清楚的方向"},{"start":557.733,"end":585.977,"text":"好那我們就期待你的第9次會議再來中華電信近年來當然是非常的賺錢他也是這個交通部轉民營化的事業單位中央政府也是最大的股東剛剛我有聽您的業務報告您第7點第8點都講得非常好啊你要做這個勞資雙方協商的推手啊建立這個勞資雙方的平台等等結果您也知道現在中華電信的工會正在夜宿他們的總部嗎?是的當然嗯"},{"start":587.17,"end":614.475,"text":"所以我想請教部長的問題如果中華電信員工的訴求沒有太過分您有沒有什麼積極的舉動想要應援他們支持他們我其實因為那天他們的業術這個新聞開始出來後其實就已經跟業務單位說了當然現在他們可能會開始進行一些勞資方面的協商那哪些部分是勞動部可以協助我說我們當然需要踩在"},{"start":615.015,"end":619.557,"text":"因為你剛剛的報告寫得很清楚啊你說強化勞資協商能力這是勞動部的關鍵功能輔導及獎勵勞資雙方協商輔導獎勵勞資雙方簽訂團體協約落實勞資會議制度迅速有效勞資爭議處理這都是你剛剛講的"},{"start":634.081,"end":656.324,"text":"是。所以我說這個事情我們願意跟交通部來討論啦。那我們的立場當然是當然是會站在怎麼樣更大程度能夠協助工會跟勞工的角度作為我們表達想法的出發點。所以可能有一些工會的同仁現在正在看電視您也會扮演這個與陳士凱部長溝通的角色嗎?就是如果需要的話我們當然把當然需要"},{"start":659.365,"end":682.89,"text":"我現在說的意思是說那個我現在意思是說其實我都跟我不能同仁說我們不會說現在就是一個勞資協商讓他們自己去協商在這個協商的過程裡面哪些事情是勞動部可以協助的我們就應該來協助我剛已經念給你聽了您會做好吧您剛講的這些您的關鍵功能今天報告列了四五項是"},{"start":684.093,"end":697.4,"text":"我們希望盡力的做好啦但因為這確實涉及到不同的利害相關方之間的事情所以我們會在我們能夠扮演的角色上面盡力的協助所以有機會的話您會願意過去中華電信公會那邊為他們打氣嗎我們會盡力的來協助啦好謝謝對好謝謝好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":120,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時44分）主席、委員，還有各位官員，大家好，我想請洪部長。"],["主席：有請洪部長。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，請問你有聽聞今天包含桃園市產業總工會還有很多勞團要聯合起來絕食100個小時嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：有，我有看到相關的訊息。"],["陳委員菁徽：那你也知道他們有針對三大議題要請您回應嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：是，我在他們的資訊裡面有看到。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，全國的勞工已經氣炸了，對於許銘春、何佩珊、謝宜容無比的憤怒，因為你們本該是捍衛全國勞工的勞動部，結果最近是揮霍公帑被看破手腳，所以他們有三個要回應的：第一個是全面檢討基金的用途，包括相關部會如實的揭露；第二個是強化基金審查委員會成員的專業度，並且由第三方建立真正外部監督的機制；第三個對於勞動部長久以來遲遲沒有回應的重大勞動議題，比如增加國定假日等等，希望藉由絕食讓你聽到他們的聲音，你現在初步有想要利用這樣的場合回應嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：其實這裡面幾個訴求，尤其我們看到針對就安基金的部分，我們上週其實就已經開始非常非常密切的在檢討了，甚至也開始邀請一些外部有相關專業的專家來給我們建議，我自己也認為就安基金整體的管理要朝向更監理化的方向來做檢討跟調整，現在整個就安基金管理機制確實有調整的空間，所以剛剛也提到，包括像現在就安基金的收支管理辦法也在整體檢討的範圍內。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以您會到現場回應還是你在這邊回應？或是等一下跟媒體朋友做回應？"],["洪部長申翰：沒有，其實對我們來說，這些事情我們就是要努力、大力的往前做，把事情做出來才是最好回應的方式。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，再來我們就看一下你的就安基金現在為什麼大家會非常的生氣，我們先看左邊這個圖，勞動部從111年、112年到113年，我已經幫你整理出來了，我們看到勞動部粉專經營管理、網路行銷還有文宣媒體通路採購案，簡單來說就是大內宣、大外宣，111年從就安基金出了20萬，然後186萬，林林總總的我先幫你加起來，因為這些項目連續3年都有，全部加起來是1億2,544萬6,480元，可能演唱會也包含在裡面，因為是媒體通路採購案，比起你右邊這個真的是令人很心寒，右邊是你們的公務預算，針對勞動條件及就業平等業務工作計畫的預算，也只編了9,714萬，那做這些媒體宣傳、粉專大外宣就花了1億2,500萬，你覺得這樣的作法正確嗎？你這個就安基金顧名思義就是要幫助國人就業，創造國人的就業機會，結果被部長挪用去做媒體宣傳的採購費。"],["洪部長申翰：跟陳委員說明，我們知道現在大家都在檢討這個部分，但我自己覺得，就以促進國民就業來說的話，其實我們有很多政策或相關的措施，要怎麼讓更多可能失業的勞工，或者是有需要的勞工可以知道，這裡面確實也是需要有一些宣傳推廣的經費，所以我並不認為所有編列在裡面的經費都能夠叫做大外宣或大內宣，我不覺得，因為真的還是有政策推廣，讓大家能夠知道現在的政策跟資源編列到哪裡，可以怎麼讓大家得到需求，這部分我要先說明。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是你們是從111年到113年逐年不斷的上升。"],["洪部長申翰：對，所以……"],["陳委員菁徽：你看從3,812萬到最後是4,500萬耶！"],["洪部長申翰：是，所以我要說明是，就像這幾年包括像缺工的議題……"],["陳委員菁徽：我OK，你覺得這些東西宣傳很有必要性，但是你也該拿出實際上對於就業安定有什麼指標吧？"],["洪部長申翰：是，所以我再補充一點，但是對於這裡面有一些宣傳的形式是不是有讓外界覺得觀感不佳的地方，這當然我們現在正在檢討，我的意思是，這整筆所謂宣傳經費，我覺得不宜說它就是大外宣、大內宣，還是有必要性，可是就裡面項目的形式該檢討的部分，我們現在也正在檢討中。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，這件事情最荒謬的就是，我去查閱了您擔任第10屆立法委員的時候，整整8個會期都在衛環委員會。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：也就是編列這些預算的時候，許銘春部長在編列這些預算的時候，你就在這邊擔任監督者的角色，而且是當了8個會期，你那個時候就沒有監督好，或者是你那個時候覺得OK，這些都很合理，結果現在呢？你還要回來抓漏耶！你不覺得這整件事很荒謬嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟陳委員說明，當然我現在是以勞動部長的角色去處理我該面對、該解決的問題，所以我現在很清楚知道在這個時間點上面我的責任。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你的意思是你以前沒有抓出來？你以前8個會期都沒有看出來，但是你現在看出來了，你是這個意思嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我覺得也不是這樣去引申的，但我能說我現在是一個勞動部長的角色，我就必須在這個角色上面做好我現在必須面對問題的事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你現在覺得你當時可能不夠嚴謹，沒有看出這些預算的貓膩？"],["洪部長申翰：我覺得也不是這樣延伸的。關於監督的部分，我自己也很希望包括跟國會我們一起合作，接下來可能陸陸續續會有更多資訊釋放出來，就像我剛才說的，讓管理的機制更監理化，甚至某些部分的資訊應該必要地揭露。"],["陳委員菁徽：本席只是想告訴你，看到這樣子的預算，一邊是做媒體宣傳粉專花費1億2,500萬，一邊是認真的公務預算，做勞動條件、就業平等花費9,714萬。如果你把這1.2億的血汗錢拿去提升不管是勞檢員的福利、培訓，或是減少勞動部「非典大戶」所聘任的非典型員工，不是很好嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：關於勞檢員的工作和福利，我們現在也在看怎麼樣重新檢視，怎麼樣該補充的把它補上，但我覺得這兩件事情不見得是直接相關，只要在這一筆預算上面有哪些項目真的有不妥的地方，我覺得我們就該檢討。"],["陳委員菁徽：沒關係，全國人民都在等你對就安基金的檢討。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：你當立委的時候通過的這些就安基金，現在你要來檢討它，大家都在看你要怎麼檢討。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：下一個想問，今年3月、5月、7月、8月，分別從第5次會議進展到第8次會議，外送工會、外送平臺業者以及勞動部三方，對於還沒有訂定外送員專法以前各項爭議問題的解決機制，之前是每兩個月就會開一次會，但第8次至今過了4個月，遲遲都沒有再召開第9次會議。你知道為什麼嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：就我所知，12月中應該就會召開下一次的第9次會議。針對包括外送員的報酬，停權、定期化契約等等議題，都是現在大家最關注的議題，我也要求12月就應該儘速召開。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，我知道你也蠻重視這樣子的議題。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為第8次之前都是部內的司長出席，那您會有意願出席第9次會議相挺外送員嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：如果有需要的狀況下，其實我都不排斥。可是在這個平臺，重點在於我覺得這裡面可能不只是挺或不挺的問題，我們當然要站在外送員勞動權益的角度出發，但因為這涉及到不同利害關係人，重點還是在溝通協調的工作。"],["陳委員菁徽：第8次到第9次有一個很大的爭議，就是經濟補償方案。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：這個你也都很熟知，所以針對溝通、協調的方式，您現在有什麼有效的解方可以提出來嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：剛剛陳委員講到的補償方案部分，其實在第9次的平臺會議裡面就會處理這個問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：您會有意願想要自己出席嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟業務單位討論一下，好不好？但我是說勞動部整體而言，對於外送員勞動權利的支持立場，這是我們很清楚的方向。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，那我們就期待你的第9次會議。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["陳委員菁徽：再來，中華電信近年來當然是非常賺錢，它是交通部轉民營化的事業單位，中央政府也是最大股東。剛剛我聽您的業務報告，您在第七點、第八點都講得非常好，你要做勞資雙方協商的推手，建立勞資雙方的平臺等等，但您知道現在中華電信的工會正夜宿於他們的總部嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：知道，當然。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以我想請教部長的問題是，如果中華電信員工的訴求沒有太過分，您有沒有什麼積極的舉動想要應援他們、支持他們？"],["洪部長申翰：那天他們夜宿的新聞出來以後，我其實就已經跟業務單位說了，當然現在他們可能會開始進行一些勞資方面的協商，而哪些部分是勞動部可以協助，我們當然要採協助勞工的立場。"],["陳委員菁徽：有啊！因為剛剛的報告你寫得很清楚，你說「強化勞資協商能力」，這是勞動部的關鍵功能，「輔導及獎勵勞資雙方協商、輔導及獎勵勞資雙方簽訂團體協約」、「落實勞資會議制度」及「迅速有效勞資爭議處理」，這都是你剛剛講的。"],["洪部長申翰：是。所以我就說這個事情我們願意跟交通部討論，我們的立場當然是會站在怎麼樣更大程度上能夠協助工會及勞工的角度，作為我們表達想法的出發點。"],["陳委員菁徽：可能有一些工會的同仁現在正在看電視，您也會扮演與陳世凱部長溝通的角色嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：就是如果需要的話，我們當然把……"],["陳委員菁徽：當然需要！這不是你的關鍵功能嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：不是，陳委員，我現在的意思是，其實我都跟我部會的同仁說了，我們不會說現在就是勞資協商而讓他們自己去協商，在這個協商的過程裡面，哪些事情是勞動部可以協助的，我們就應該協助。"],["陳委員菁徽：有，我剛剛已經唸給你聽了。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：您會做好吧？您剛剛講的這些，你的關鍵功能，今天報告列了四、五項。"],["洪部長申翰：是，我們希望盡力做好，但因為這確實涉及到不同利害關係人各方之間的事情，所以會在我們能夠扮演的角色上面盡力協助。"],["陳委員菁徽：有機會的話，您會願意過去中華電信工會那邊為他們打氣嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們會盡力協助。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員的發言、謝謝洪部長。下一位請邱鎮軍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":196,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王育敏","涂權吉","盧縣一","陳瑩","蘇清泉","陳培瑜","林淑芬","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","王正旭","黃國昌","張啓楷","劉建國","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","張雅琳"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-09"],"gazette_id":"1140403","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140403_00002","1140403_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案\n關於勞動部主管預算（公務及基金預算）；三、審查勞動部函送財團法人職業災害預防及重建中心\n114年度預算書案【所列預算案，僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1140403_00001"}}}