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\"自己已經多花錢去繳了這個就業安定基金然後給政府結果政府本來亂用所以他們非常的不滿意那我想要請您參考一下這張表格就業安定基金的這個媒體政策及業務宣導費那該項支出從111年的1.09億開始連年的成長到了114年預算編列達\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 514.815, \"end\": 514.975, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 514.975, \"end\": 515.296, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 515.296, \"end\": 516.156, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 516.156, \"end\": 516.417, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"花\", \"start\": 516.417, \"end\": 516.717, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"錢\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 516.717, \"end\": 517.978, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"繳\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 517.978, \"end\": 518.318, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 518.318, \"end\": 518.559, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 518.559, \"end\": 518.699, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 518.699, \"end\": 518.879, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": 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\"所以其實救安基金的爭議還有包含之前我上禮拜也提出了過去有這個3000萬要補助高雄市政府辦活動然後根據會議記錄這筆補助是在他的前一年的11月23日臨時會議臨時動議的提案方式通過那隔年3月1號第105次會議才就業平等司去提案所需經費4000萬便列於提升勞工福祉項目當中但是部長這個東西我想救安基金的疑慮已經很深了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 784.978, \"end\": 785.058, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 785.058, \"end\": 785.158, \"score\": 0.33}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 785.158, \"end\": 785.478, \"score\": 0.702}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"救\", \"start\": 785.478, \"end\": 785.598, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 785.598, \"end\": 785.758, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 785.758, \"end\": 785.878, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"金\", \"start\": 785.878, \"end\": 786.018, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 786.018, \"end\": 786.858, \"score\": 0.719}, {\"word\": \"爭\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 786.858, \"end\": 786.959, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 786.959, \"end\": 787.099, \"score\": 0.854}, 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\"end\": 813.905, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"深\", \"start\": 813.905, \"end\": 814.125, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 814.125, \"end\": 814.145, \"score\": 0.801}]}, {\"start\": 814.725, \"end\": 833.237, \"text\": \"目前能夠查閱的僅有這個會議記錄若非像我們這樣子去對跨年度的會議記錄去做對比根本沒有辦法追蹤相關的事宜而且審議委員會的過程沒有公開審查我認為基於這個就業基金長期被亂用不良記錄是不是剛剛部長有說要更有這個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 814.725, \"end\": 814.925, \"score\": 0.644}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 814.925, \"end\": 815.105, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 815.105, \"end\": 815.446, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 815.446, \"end\": 815.826, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"閱\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 815.826, \"end\": 816.526, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"僅\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 816.526, \"end\": 818.267, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"記\"}, {\"word\": \"錄\"}, {\"word\": \"若\", 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\"start\": 1127.949, \"end\": 1128.009, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 1128.009, \"end\": 1128.049, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1128.049, \"end\": 1128.51, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 1128.51, \"end\": 1128.85, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1128.85, \"end\": 1129.05, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1129.05, \"end\": 1129.21, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 1129.21, \"end\": 1129.23, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:14,074 --> 00:00:16,595\n謝主席有請紅部長有請紅部長的好部長你好部長勞動部最新公佈了我國2023年的年總工時要打\n\n2\n00:00:31,284 --> 00:00:50,866\n兩千二十個小時為世界第二那全國更有二十五萬人的周公時大於六十個小時整個台灣已經陷入極度的過勞可以說透過過勞讓世界看到台灣想請問一下部長你覺得造成這個事情的原因如何有沒有什麼應對的方式\n\n3\n00:00:53,473 --> 00:01:08,351\n從勞動部的角度來說當然希望能夠協助勞工降低工時的負擔這當然是我們整體的目標那在做法上面原因是什麼你們有檢討原因是什麼為什麼又比上一年多加了15個小時\n\n4\n00:01:12,660 --> 00:01:42,095\n報告委員那有關我們的工時的那個平均數那是每一人的每年平均工時他含括了所謂的部分工時和全時勞工那在跟國際比較的時候我國的部分工時勞工佔比只有3%那像日本和韓國他的這個這個應該是說我們每一年你如果要第一個跟國家比跟國際比是一回事好國際比我們的數據已經很糟糕但是你跟自己比你今年也比去年再增加了所以還有什麼理由呢\n\n5\n00:01:43,476 --> 00:01:53,806\n這個今年的部分的話他其實是回到疫情前的狀況我們慢慢的復甦回來到疫情前的情況疫情的有沒有什麼應對方式現在有沒有什麼應對方式要讓他降下來\n\n6\n00:01:55,219 --> 00:02:22,546\n那個跟文說明幾個部分其實我們現在都規劃在做第一個部分其實就是包括像過去我們其實大家都知道夠病的低薪的問題要怎麼讓低薪的問題能夠比較大克服這部分很重要的原因是在於我們我們知道其實會有一部分的勞工是因為他的薪水過低所以他必須透過加班的方式來增加他的收入所以包括我們現在現在在推動包括像是薪資的透明化\n\n7\n00:02:23,286 --> 00:02:40,214\n也包括這幾年一直不斷調高的基本工資這部分都是希望能夠去讓低薪的問題能夠多一點就你今年還會再調高基本工資嗎這當然不是我現在這邊能夠說的事情可是我的意思說這幾年我們陸續在做這件事情\n\n8\n00:02:40,794 --> 00:03:06,563\n這是第一個部分第二個部分我們也希望能夠來建立勞資之間的協商機制或讓協商機制可以做得更好希望可以讓更多比方跟公會切團體協約因為團體協約其實就可以做到優於法規的這個合理公時的規範老部長那個全國產業總公會的理事長有指出可以有相對應的這個政策比如說如果是積極減少公時的部分是\n\n9\n00:03:07,163 --> 00:03:29,898\n包含鼓勵事辦7月週休3日國定假日法制化還有適用勞基法84之1條的責任制行業別重新檢討。請問以上這些制度這個全國產業總工會理事長提出來的您支持嗎?這裡面有幾個部分我覺得我們自己願意來參考來去做更大程度的評估。\n\n10\n00:03:30,538 --> 00:03:54,376\n然後有關於七天假的部分你過去是說立委任內說要反應給行政機關那現在你也當家了你現在說要繼續彙整那請問你現在還願意給勞工來減低過勞嗎有關於七天假的部分然後要去跟內政部溝通的部分我跟廖委員說明確實現在在國定假日相關的規範目前的相關的法規是主持在內政部下我想你也很清楚\n\n11\n00:03:54,936 --> 00:04:17,833\n但是我們很願意來反映現在勞工朋友各界的聲音讓內政部知道反映了嗎當然我們也願意把這樣子相關的聲音我們自己很願意來跟內政部討論除了反映之外還有什麼積極作為可以推動這個就如果內政部或者大家要做跨部會討論的話我們也很願意跟內政部來討論你會強硬的要求嗎這個站在勞動部的立場\n\n12\n00:04:23,697 --> 00:04:43,753\n這個涉及當然涉及到跨部會的職權的部分因為其實今天講到這個我們能做也有這個相關的對所以我們能夠做的當然是我們把相關勞工的聲音要去要確切的反映讓內政部知道所以我們部長現在能夠做的就是反映而已因為這個議題本身它涉及到跨部會的權責好沒關係部長請你好好的反映\n\n13\n00:04:44,494 --> 00:05:05,219\n那根據就業服務法第55條規定申請家庭看護或是家事移工的時候若僱主為身心障礙者他還仍需繳納就業安定費那一般家庭是繳納2000塊那中低收入或低收入可以減免那這項規定其實也被身心障礙族群稱之為障礙稅\n\n14\n00:05:07,694 --> 00:05:32,124\n但是部長根據這個CRPD工業的精神跟障礙平權的觀點國家是有責任要去擬平障礙者跟健全者在生活各方面的落差那當國家沒有辦法提供這樣的支持的時候而障礙者還必須自力救濟聘請這個移工看護但還要被國家課徵所謂的障礙稅請問部長你認為這樣規定合理嗎?\n\n15\n00:05:34,795 --> 00:05:57,821\n那個跟要人說明目前其實這個關於弱勢家庭的部分或中低收入的部分其實已經是免繳救援訂費那我們現在其實也要求在檢討是不是有擴大弱勢家庭的這個免繳的範疇。部長我剛剛已經說了這個是RPD的公約的精神其實這個身心障礙者他自己\n\n16\n00:05:58,641 --> 00:05:59,703\n公務及基金預算及重建中心114年度預算\n\n17\n00:06:13,796 --> 00:06:27,908\n請問這樣不是國家製造增加他們的障礙嗎?那個跟廖長遠說明我自己我認為關於這個外籍看護工的家庭就案訂費的部分我認為是有開放可以有開放討論跟檢討的空間的\n\n18\n00:06:29,289 --> 00:06:49,098\n只有開放討論跟檢討嗎?部長可以回去好好的研議嗎?當然,我們當然會做各種情境的評估。請問這樣子你有沒有什麼時程?好,我簡單的講一下,其實這個問題我之前也請教過何沛山部長,那他是有給我正面的回應跟你一樣,說要研議,可是其實也不了了,我知道。那現在,\n\n19\n00:06:50,459 --> 00:07:05,124\n因為就業服務法的第55條雖然規定僱主應向中央主管機關設置的就業安定基金專戶繳納就業安定費但法條中其實沒有具體明定具體的金額\n\n20\n00:07:06,144 --> 00:07:28,349\n所以我想要請問部長這有沒有可能透過修正執法或行政函式的方式理論上可以減少或者是免除這個障礙者的繳納義務如果要調整當然在這個如果要調整的話當然是在執法裡面修訂就可以但我想重點是這個如果要調整的話它涉及到的幅度跟它的影響\n\n21\n00:07:30,030 --> 00:07:46,911\n範圍你也知道這並影響不小。其實部長我看你應該要進促啟動演繹什麼時候可以給個具體的回應。我們其實上週其實已經請發言組做一些相關的演繹討論。那請問部長你覺得大概多久時間可以有具體的回應。\n\n22\n00:07:51,471 --> 00:08:17,903\n三個月好嗎?三個月嗎?對。好,那我們期待三個月後部長可以盡速給這些身心障礙者一個我們確實在思考怎麼來降低關於這些這個外籍看護工、僱主他可能的負擔。這部分我們在思考這件事情。好,那請部長三個月趕快給出一個正面的回應。那目前這個剛剛講到就是扯到就業安定費\n\n23\n00:08:19,332 --> 00:08:33,794\n那這些費用最終就是進到就業安定基金嘛那成為基金的資金來源那這一次喔很大的風波也就是剛剛很多人都問到就業安定基金被不當挪用的問題喔其實我們也接到非常多的雇主的陳情他們覺得\n\n24\n00:08:34,815 --> 00:08:50,750\n自己已經多花錢去繳了這個就業安定基金然後給政府結果政府本來亂用所以他們非常的不滿意那我想要請您參考一下這張表格就業安定基金的這個媒體政策及業務宣導費那該項支出從111年的1.09億開始連年的成長到了114年預算編列達\n\n25\n00:09:00,011 --> 00:09:14,348\n二點一七億喔那將近成長了兩倍我想請問一下這樣成長的比例是不是過高如果這個金額成長了兩倍我是不是可以期待宣傳的效應應該要提升兩倍\n\n26\n00:09:15,140 --> 00:09:41,178\n是跟委員報告過去這個部分的宣導費用主要是會大幅擴充的原因是因為我們在全國技能競賽的規模在過去兩年為了要擴大它的宣傳效果所以把它的規模做大了再一個就是因為今明年的11月那個亞洲技能競賽也要在臺灣所以這個部分除了辦理全國賽擴大之外這兩個占了多少比例然後然後跟你們成長的比例是差別在哪裡\n\n27\n00:09:43,016 --> 00:09:56,944\n這兩個部分所佔的比率我覺得你講不出來不要亂硬塞喔我想問一下這個成長比例你覺得跟臺灣GDP成長物價漲幅有關嗎我們在今年110我們在114年的時候我們的這個國際賽的競賽的宣傳項目是增加了5000萬\n\n28\n00:10:07,318 --> 00:10:22,905\n那跟之前比起來呢?在113年的時候是3800萬左右。所以你就是增加了1000多萬可是你整體增加了快5000萬。我跟你講目前舊安晶晶你們爭議的部分也可以參考一下下面。包含這個裝潢修辦公空間還有設備升級等等的各種還有垃圾清運網路行銷等等\n\n29\n00:10:38,009 --> 00:11:06,376\n針對救安基金應該是促進就業提升勞工福祉跟外國人聘僱等目的請問你覺得這些應用支應妥當嗎部長跟廖委員說明其實這裡面其實蠻多項目他看起來只比方說他可能像是一些行政費用但他可能是去因應包括這些比方說救福的站點或者是他其實相關的一些設備的維持其實有其實就像上次講的這個咖啡豆有增加到勞工福祉嗎對\n\n30\n00:11:07,716 --> 00:11:35,749\n然後還有非常多非常多相關的細節其實上次我也有跟您質詢過但是我並不認為這確實我並不認為這裡面每一項都適合用救安基金來支付所以我要跟委員說明的事情是我不會說這裡面每一個項目其實都是有問題的並不是這樣它確實有它在使用上面的目的但在項目的適合適宜性上面我的確認為有些部分其實不應該用救安基金來使用對所以其實就是耐用\n\n31\n00:11:36,309 --> 00:11:38,972\n所以其實就是救援基金被濫用嗎?\n\n32\n00:11:38,972 --> 00:11:40,234\n那是不是被濫用?\n\n33\n00:11:40,234 --> 00:11:49,004\n有檢討空間可是你也不願意正面回應說是不是被濫用好所以你認為是前朝的事那也不願意概括承受你現在覺得要檢討有檢討的空間啦\n\n34\n00:11:51,186 --> 00:12:11,857\n那你上次也不願意針對這件事情就是濫用救安基金的這個責任去道歉我是覺得很遺憾但是我要講的事情是其實10年前的時候在前任部長潘世偉他離任的時候就有說過救安基金就是勞動部的小金庫每其名為公卻以私利為目的\n\n35\n00:12:12,779 --> 00:12:36,167\n那其實就是10年後要不是因為發生了這個霸凌的事件我想在沒有人監督的亂象之下只會加劇所以請問部長其實你剛剛都有說過要改革改革這樣亂象是不是應該要把這些看似跟救安基金目的沾上邊的相關預算應該都編入公務預算中讓救安基金回歸他使用的目的\n\n36\n00:12:37,808 --> 00:13:03,357\n跟那個人說明我們確實也覺得我們需要去跟向行政爭取在勞動部的公務預算裡面是不是能夠擴大所以對於某些的一些支出不一定一定是要用救安電基金而是能夠回到公務預算裡面這是我們也覺得該去努力的目標那針對救安基金的我其實前面有說過我們希望能夠讓他的管理更監理化對好那部長講到這個\n\n37\n00:13:04,978 --> 00:13:34,145\n所以其實救安基金的爭議還有包含之前我上禮拜也提出了過去有這個3000萬要補助高雄市政府辦活動然後根據會議記錄這筆補助是在他的前一年的11月23日臨時會議臨時動議的提案方式通過那隔年3月1號第105次會議才就業平等司去提案所需經費4000萬便列於提升勞工福祉項目當中但是部長這個東西我想救安基金的疑慮已經很深了\n\n38\n00:13:34,725 --> 00:13:53,237\n目前能夠查閱的僅有這個會議記錄若非像我們這樣子去對跨年度的會議記錄去做對比根本沒有辦法追蹤相關的事宜而且審議委員會的過程沒有公開審查我認為基於這個就業基金長期被亂用不良記錄是不是剛剛部長有說要更有這個\n\n39\n00:13:54,798 --> 00:14:13,713\n審查在這個監審上面要更公開透明是不是應該要把審議會議的全程錄音錄影像立法院委員會一樣放在網站上供全國人民查閱共同監督請問部長是否支持六人就你剛才現在講的這個案例我就我知道後來高雄市政府其實已經有把這個計劃撤回沒錯我知道撤回\n\n40\n00:14:14,574 --> 00:14:40,052\n我上禮拜委員會撤回但是整個過程其實是因為當時有被拿出來在立法院檢討包含楊耀偉人等等的變成軒然大波所以他才趕快撤回不然這也是一個嚴重的政治事件所以這是過去的事發生了但是這件事情的確就像你說的制度上有問題所以我們認為在機制上面包括事前的審查怎麼強化甚至事後計畫後的集合\n\n41\n00:14:41,013 --> 00:14:52,175\n那也包括我們當然現在在檢討包括在收支管理辦法裏面部長我就問說部費的項目可不可以公開我覺得我覺得我們是可以做到更多我認為我們可以做到更多資訊的公開\n\n42\n00:14:53,308 --> 00:15:11,930\n更多但是包含我剛剛所這個具體的建議嗎?就是我們現在錄影錄影的那個我們現在還在建保建保這個審議一樣我們我們現在還在做還在整體的檢討中但我自己認為我們是可以再做到更多的公開的部長你打你講的話都是很不具體的回應啊\n\n43\n00:15:12,691 --> 00:15:31,943\n所以我只是講說這一件事情我也想全國公開這個跟國人同胞看這個其實應該是一個公開透明機制很很好的一個基本的要求可是我覺得部長可以正面回應了我覺得可以做到更多的公開所以你可以比這個更多對不對當然可以比現在更多的公開但是我現在意思是說因為我們現在這個\n\n44\n00:15:37,186 --> 00:16:03,942\n錄影錄影的以下：我現在說我的意思是說因為我們真的現在正在檢討中所以關於這些細節的做法其實現在也在討論中好部長我就進一步追啦為什麼一定要這樣做我跟你說同樣的會議幾乎總也有寫到如果辦理高雄市或是辦理這類的活動經費不足的話再以併決算的方式來辦理那也發現這就是救安基金動用上的常態啊\n\n45\n00:16:05,383 --> 00:16:30,422\n雖然做法上你覺得好像預算法有法源依據但其實這等同於削弱和閹割立法院的監督權就算我們再怎麼努力監督不管公務預算或是救安基金其實都是徒勞因為你們編列是一回事立法委員這個立法院的委員審查又是一回事但最終你們都說自行操之並決算處理那一套基本上就是想怎麼用怎麼用\n\n46\n00:16:31,162 --> 00:16:58,024\n這個做法每期名是彈性、陰硬可是事實上就是讓它不公開、不透明而且讓我們沒有辦法好好審查的一個原因那個跟那個人說沒有我們現在確實也看到在救安基金的收支管理辦法裡面其實有部分的項目我們要怎麼樣更嚴格的把關這部分部長我要跟你說救安基金濫用了這個所謂的併決算的方式\n\n47\n00:16:59,825 --> 00:17:19,731\n蘭用了這個所謂並決算的方式你並決算就是編列等於是編列不死嘛等於是可能導致機關故意低估然後變日後來並決算那也缺乏所謂的透明度並決算的過程幾乎缺乏透明度不利於公眾監督所以為什麼我說你們在這個審查會議應該要\n\n48\n00:17:22,612 --> 00:17:46,643\n讓這個錄音錄影的影像全部公開而且每一條明細應該要很詳細的交代否則你完全讓國人尤其是這些繳納就業安定基金的對於政府完全是沒有信心沒有信任他們不知道他們到底在繳這個安定基金是真的有照顧到老百姓提升到我們勞工的權益嗎還是只是部長或是我們部內的小金庫隨意亂花\n\n49\n00:17:48,644 --> 00:18:14,302\n我以上講到這裡就是希望我剛剛的訴求就是是不是未來在這部分的審理應該是更加的可以把錄音錄影都公開上網。那第一個我要表達的事情是我並不覺得有所謂病決算的狀況就一定叫做編列不實。這之間並不是等價。我說這是閉端這是閉端而且還有不夠公開透明。但是如果有病決算的狀況我確實覺得應該盡量的減少。\n\n50\n00:18:17,565 --> 00:18:21,348\n三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部部長列席報告業務概況：一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部部長列席報告業務．僅\n\n51\n00:18:46,988 --> 00:18:49,230\n一月後您的這個機制的檢討我們也可以看到這樣子的一個決定謝謝謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n14074\t16595\t謝主席有請紅部長有請紅部長的好部長你好部長勞動部最新公佈了我國2023年的年總工時要打\n31284\t50866\t兩千二十個小時為世界第二那全國更有二十五萬人的周公時大於六十個小時整個台灣已經陷入極度的過勞可以說透過過勞讓世界看到台灣想請問一下部長你覺得造成這個事情的原因如何有沒有什麼應對的方式\n53473\t68351\t從勞動部的角度來說當然希望能夠協助勞工降低工時的負擔這當然是我們整體的目標那在做法上面原因是什麼你們有檢討原因是什麼為什麼又比上一年多加了15個小時\n72660\t102095\t報告委員那有關我們的工時的那個平均數那是每一人的每年平均工時他含括了所謂的部分工時和全時勞工那在跟國際比較的時候我國的部分工時勞工佔比只有3%那像日本和韓國他的這個這個應該是說我們每一年你如果要第一個跟國家比跟國際比是一回事好國際比我們的數據已經很糟糕但是你跟自己比你今年也比去年再增加了所以還有什麼理由呢\n103476\t113806\t這個今年的部分的話他其實是回到疫情前的狀況我們慢慢的復甦回來到疫情前的情況疫情的有沒有什麼應對方式現在有沒有什麼應對方式要讓他降下來\n115219\t142546\t那個跟文說明幾個部分其實我們現在都規劃在做第一個部分其實就是包括像過去我們其實大家都知道夠病的低薪的問題要怎麼讓低薪的問題能夠比較大克服這部分很重要的原因是在於我們我們知道其實會有一部分的勞工是因為他的薪水過低所以他必須透過加班的方式來增加他的收入所以包括我們現在現在在推動包括像是薪資的透明化\n143286\t160214\t也包括這幾年一直不斷調高的基本工資這部分都是希望能夠去讓低薪的問題能夠多一點就你今年還會再調高基本工資嗎這當然不是我現在這邊能夠說的事情可是我的意思說這幾年我們陸續在做這件事情\n160794\t186563\t這是第一個部分第二個部分我們也希望能夠來建立勞資之間的協商機制或讓協商機制可以做得更好希望可以讓更多比方跟公會切團體協約因為團體協約其實就可以做到優於法規的這個合理公時的規範 老部長那個全國產業總公會的理事長有指出可以有相對應的這個政策比如說如果是積極減少公時的部分 是\n187163\t209898\t包含鼓勵事辦7月週休3日國定假日法制化還有適用勞基法84之1條的責任制行業別重新檢討。請問以上這些制度這個全國產業總工會理事長提出來的您支持嗎?這裡面有幾個部分我覺得我們自己願意來參考來去做更大程度的評估。\n210538\t234376\t然後有關於七天假的部分你過去是說立委任內說要反應給行政機關那現在你也當家了你現在說要繼續彙整那請問你現在還願意給勞工來減低過勞嗎有關於七天假的部分然後要去跟內政部溝通的部分我跟廖委員說明確實現在在國定假日相關的規範目前的相關的法規是主持在內政部下我想你也很清楚\n234936\t257833\t但是我們很願意來反映現在勞工朋友各界的聲音讓內政部知道反映了嗎當然我們也願意把這樣子相關的聲音我們自己很願意來跟內政部討論除了反映之外還有什麼積極作為可以推動這個就如果內政部或者大家要做跨部會討論的話我們也很願意跟內政部來討論你會強硬的要求嗎這個站在勞動部的立場\n263697\t283753\t這個涉及當然涉及到跨部會的職權的部分因為其實今天講到這個我們能做也有這個相關的對所以我們能夠做的當然是我們把相關勞工的聲音要去要確切的反映讓內政部知道所以我們部長現在能夠做的就是反映而已因為這個議題本身它涉及到跨部會的權責好沒關係部長請你好好的反映\n284494\t305219\t那根據就業服務法第55條規定申請家庭看護或是家事移工的時候若僱主為身心障礙者他還仍需繳納就業安定費那一般家庭是繳納2000塊那中低收入或低收入可以減免那這項規定其實也被身心障礙族群稱之為障礙稅\n307694\t332124\t但是部長根據這個CRPD工業的精神跟障礙平權的觀點國家是有責任要去擬平障礙者跟健全者在生活各方面的落差那當國家沒有辦法提供這樣的支持的時候而障礙者還必須自力救濟聘請這個移工看護但還要被國家課徵所謂的障礙稅請問部長你認為這樣規定合理嗎?\n334795\t357821\t那個跟要人說明目前其實這個關於弱勢家庭的部分或中低收入的部分其實已經是免繳救援訂費那我們現在其實也要求在檢討是不是有擴大弱勢家庭的這個免繳的範疇。部長我剛剛已經說了這個是RPD的公約的精神其實這個身心障礙者他自己\n358641\t359703\t公務及基金預算及重建中心114年度預算\n373796\t387908\t請問這樣不是國家製造增加他們的障礙嗎?那個跟廖長遠說明我自己我認為關於這個外籍看護工的家庭就案訂費的部分我認為是有開放可以有開放討論跟檢討的空間的\n389289\t409098\t只有開放討論跟檢討嗎?部長可以回去好好的研議嗎?當然,我們當然會做各種情境的評估。請問這樣子你有沒有什麼時程?好,我簡單的講一下,其實這個問題我之前也請教過何沛山部長,那他是有給我正面的回應跟你一樣,說要研議,可是其實也不了了,我知道。那現在,\n410459\t425124\t因為就業服務法的第55條雖然規定僱主應向中央主管機關設置的就業安定基金專戶繳納就業安定費但法條中其實沒有具體明定具體的金額\n426144\t448349\t所以我想要請問部長這有沒有可能透過修正執法或行政函式的方式理論上可以減少或者是免除這個障礙者的繳納義務如果要調整當然在這個如果要調整的話當然是在執法裡面修訂就可以但我想重點是這個如果要調整的話它涉及到的幅度跟它的影響\n450030\t466911\t範圍你也知道這並影響不小。其實部長我看你應該要進促啟動演繹什麼時候可以給個具體的回應。我們其實上週其實已經請發言組做一些相關的演繹討論。 那請問部長你覺得大概多久時間可以有具體的回應。\n471471\t497903\t三個月好嗎?三個月嗎?對。好,那我們期待三個月後部長可以盡速給這些身心障礙者一個我們確實在思考怎麼來降低關於這些這個外籍看護工、僱主他可能的負擔。這部分我們在思考這件事情。好,那請部長三個月趕快給出一個正面的回應。那目前這個剛剛講到就是扯到就業安定費\n499332\t513794\t那這些費用最終就是進到就業安定基金嘛那成為基金的資金來源那這一次喔很大的風波也就是剛剛很多人都問到就業安定基金被不當挪用的問題喔其實我們也接到非常多的雇主的陳情他們覺得\n514815\t530750\t自己已經多花錢去繳了這個就業安定基金然後給政府結果政府本來亂用所以他們非常的不滿意那我想要請您參考一下這張表格就業安定基金的這個媒體政策及業務宣導費那該項支出從111年的1.09億開始連年的成長到了114年預算編列達\n540011\t554348\t二點一七億喔那將近成長了兩倍我想請問一下這樣成長的比例是不是過高如果這個金額成長了兩倍我是不是可以期待宣傳的效應應該要提升兩倍\n555140\t581178\t是跟委員報告過去這個部分的宣導費用主要是會大幅擴充的原因是因為我們在全國技能競賽的規模在過去兩年為了要擴大它的宣傳效果所以把它的規模做大了再一個就是因為今明年的11月那個亞洲技能競賽也要在臺灣所以這個部分除了辦理全國賽擴大之外這兩個占了多少比例然後然後跟你們成長的比例是差別在哪裡\n583016\t596944\t這兩個部分所佔的比率我覺得你講不出來不要亂硬塞喔我想問一下這個成長比例你覺得跟臺灣GDP成長物價漲幅有關嗎我們在今年110我們在114年的時候我們的這個國際賽的競賽的宣傳項目是增加了5000萬\n607318\t622905\t那跟之前比起來呢?在113年的時候是3800萬左右。所以你就是增加了1000多萬可是你整體增加了快5000萬。我跟你講目前舊安晶晶你們爭議的部分也可以參考一下下面。包含這個裝潢修辦公空間還有設備升級等等的各種還有垃圾清運網路行銷等等\n638009\t666376\t針對救安基金應該是促進就業提升勞工福祉跟外國人聘僱等目的請問你覺得這些應用支應妥當嗎部長跟廖委員說明其實這裡面其實蠻多項目他看起來只比方說他可能像是一些行政費用但他可能是去因應包括這些比方說救福的站點或者是他其實相關的一些設備的維持其實有其實就像上次講的這個咖啡豆有增加到勞工福祉嗎對\n667716\t695749\t然後還有非常多非常多相關的細節其實上次我也有跟您質詢過但是我並不認為這確實我並不認為這裡面每一項都適合用救安基金來支付所以我要跟委員說明的事情是我不會說這裡面每一個項目其實都是有問題的並不是這樣它確實有它在使用上面的目的但在項目的適合適宜性上面我的確認為有些部分其實不應該用救安基金來使用對所以其實就是耐用\n696309\t698972\t所以其實就是救援基金被濫用嗎?\n698972\t700234\t那是不是被濫用?\n700234\t709004\t有檢討空間可是你也不願意正面回應說是不是被濫用好所以你認為是前朝的事那也不願意概括承受你現在覺得要檢討有檢討的空間啦\n711186\t731857\t那你上次也不願意針對這件事情就是濫用救安基金的這個責任去道歉我是覺得很遺憾但是我要講的事情是其實10年前的時候在前任部長潘世偉他離任的時候就有說過救安基金就是勞動部的小金庫每其名為公卻以私利為目的\n732779\t756167\t那其實就是10年後要不是因為發生了這個霸凌的事件我想在沒有人監督的亂象之下只會加劇所以請問部長其實你剛剛都有說過要改革改革這樣亂象是不是應該要把這些看似跟救安基金目的沾上邊的相關預算應該都編入公務預算中讓救安基金回歸他使用的目的\n757808\t783357\t跟那個人說明我們確實也覺得我們需要去跟向行政爭取在勞動部的公務預算裡面是不是能夠擴大所以對於某些的一些支出不一定一定是要用救安電基金而是能夠回到公務預算裡面這是我們也覺得該去努力的目標那針對救安基金的我其實前面有說過我們希望能夠讓他的管理更監理化對好那部長講到這個\n784978\t814145\t所以其實救安基金的爭議還有包含之前我上禮拜也提出了過去有這個3000萬要補助高雄市政府辦活動然後根據會議記錄這筆補助是在他的前一年的11月23日臨時會議臨時動議的提案方式通過那隔年3月1號第105次會議才就業平等司去提案所需經費4000萬便列於提升勞工福祉項目當中但是部長這個東西我想救安基金的疑慮已經很深了\n814725\t833237\t目前能夠查閱的僅有這個會議記錄若非像我們這樣子去對跨年度的會議記錄去做對比根本沒有辦法追蹤相關的事宜而且審議委員會的過程沒有公開審查我認為基於這個就業基金長期被亂用不良記錄是不是剛剛部長有說要更有這個\n834798\t853713\t審查在這個監審上面要更公開透明是不是應該要把審議會議的全程錄音錄影像立法院委員會一樣放在網站上供全國人民查閱共同監督請問部長是否支持六人就你剛才現在講的這個案例我就我知道後來高雄市政府其實已經有把這個計劃撤回沒錯我知道撤回\n854574\t880052\t我上禮拜委員會撤回但是整個過程其實是因為當時有被拿出來在立法院檢討包含楊耀偉人等等的變成軒然大波所以他才趕快撤回不然這也是一個嚴重的政治事件所以這是過去的事發生了但是這件事情的確就像你說的制度上有問題所以我們認為在機制上面包括事前的審查怎麼強化甚至事後計畫後的集合\n881013\t892175\t那也包括我們當然現在在檢討包括在收支管理辦法裏面部長我就問說部費的項目可不可以公開我覺得我覺得我們是可以做到更多我認為我們可以做到更多資訊的公開\n893308\t911930\t更多但是包含我剛剛所這個具體的建議嗎?就是我們現在錄影錄影的那個我們現在還在建保建保這個審議一樣我們我們現在還在做還在整體的檢討中但我自己認為我們是可以再做到更多的公開的部長你打你講的話都是很不具體的回應啊\n912691\t931943\t所以我只是講說這一件事情我也想全國公開這個跟國人同胞看這個其實應該是一個公開透明機制很很好的一個基本的要求可是我覺得部長可以正面回應了我覺得可以做到更多的公開所以你可以比這個更多對不對當然可以比現在更多的公開但是我現在意思是說因為我們現在這個\n937186\t963942\t錄影錄影的以下：我現在說我的意思是說因為我們真的現在正在檢討中所以關於這些細節的做法其實現在也在討論中好部長我就進一步追啦為什麼一定要這樣做我跟你說同樣的會議幾乎總也有寫到如果辦理高雄市或是辦理這類的活動經費不足的話再以併決算的方式來辦理那也發現這就是救安基金動用上的常態啊\n965383\t990422\t雖然做法上你覺得好像預算法有法源依據但其實這等同於削弱和閹割立法院的監督權就算我們再怎麼努力監督不管公務預算或是救安基金其實都是徒勞因為你們編列是一回事立法委員這個立法院的委員審查又是一回事但最終你們都說自行操之並決算處理那一套基本上就是想怎麼用怎麼用\n991162\t1018024\t這個做法每期名是彈性、陰硬可是事實上就是讓它不公開、不透明而且讓我們沒有辦法好好審查的一個原因那個跟那個人說沒有我們現在確實也看到在救安基金的收支管理辦法裡面其實有部分的項目我們要怎麼樣更嚴格的把關這部分部長我要跟你說救安基金濫用了這個所謂的併決算的方式\n1019825\t1039731\t蘭用了這個所謂並決算的方式你並決算就是編列等於是編列不死嘛等於是可能導致機關故意低估然後變日後來並決算那也缺乏所謂的透明度並決算的過程幾乎缺乏透明度不利於公眾監督所以為什麼我說你們在這個審查會議應該要\n1042612\t1066643\t讓這個錄音錄影的影像全部公開而且每一條明細應該要很詳細的交代否則你完全讓國人尤其是這些繳納就業安定基金的對於政府完全是沒有信心沒有信任他們不知道他們到底在繳這個安定基金是真的有照顧到老百姓提升到我們勞工的權益嗎還是只是部長或是我們部內的小金庫隨意亂花\n1068644\t1094302\t我以上講到這裡就是希望我剛剛的訴求就是是不是未來在這部分的審理應該是更加的可以把錄音錄影都公開上網。那第一個我要表達的事情是我並不覺得有所謂病決算的狀況就一定叫做編列不實。這之間並不是等價。我說這是閉端這是閉端而且還有不夠公開透明。但是如果有病決算的狀況我確實覺得應該盡量的減少。\n1097565\t1101348\t三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部部長列席報告業務概況：一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部部長列席報告業務．僅\n1126988\t1129230\t一月後您的這個機制的檢討我們也可以看到這樣子的一個決定謝謝謝謝\n","txt":"謝主席有請紅部長有請紅部長的好部長你好部長勞動部最新公佈了我國2023年的年總工時要打\n兩千二十個小時為世界第二那全國更有二十五萬人的周公時大於六十個小時整個台灣已經陷入極度的過勞可以說透過過勞讓世界看到台灣想請問一下部長你覺得造成這個事情的原因如何有沒有什麼應對的方式\n從勞動部的角度來說當然希望能夠協助勞工降低工時的負擔這當然是我們整體的目標那在做法上面原因是什麼你們有檢討原因是什麼為什麼又比上一年多加了15個小時\n報告委員那有關我們的工時的那個平均數那是每一人的每年平均工時他含括了所謂的部分工時和全時勞工那在跟國際比較的時候我國的部分工時勞工佔比只有3%那像日本和韓國他的這個這個應該是說我們每一年你如果要第一個跟國家比跟國際比是一回事好國際比我們的數據已經很糟糕但是你跟自己比你今年也比去年再增加了所以還有什麼理由呢\n這個今年的部分的話他其實是回到疫情前的狀況我們慢慢的復甦回來到疫情前的情況疫情的有沒有什麼應對方式現在有沒有什麼應對方式要讓他降下來\n那個跟文說明幾個部分其實我們現在都規劃在做第一個部分其實就是包括像過去我們其實大家都知道夠病的低薪的問題要怎麼讓低薪的問題能夠比較大克服這部分很重要的原因是在於我們我們知道其實會有一部分的勞工是因為他的薪水過低所以他必須透過加班的方式來增加他的收入所以包括我們現在現在在推動包括像是薪資的透明化\n也包括這幾年一直不斷調高的基本工資這部分都是希望能夠去讓低薪的問題能夠多一點就你今年還會再調高基本工資嗎這當然不是我現在這邊能夠說的事情可是我的意思說這幾年我們陸續在做這件事情\n這是第一個部分第二個部分我們也希望能夠來建立勞資之間的協商機制或讓協商機制可以做得更好希望可以讓更多比方跟公會切團體協約因為團體協約其實就可以做到優於法規的這個合理公時的規範 老部長那個全國產業總公會的理事長有指出可以有相對應的這個政策比如說如果是積極減少公時的部分 是\n包含鼓勵事辦7月週休3日國定假日法制化還有適用勞基法84之1條的責任制行業別重新檢討。請問以上這些制度這個全國產業總工會理事長提出來的您支持嗎?這裡面有幾個部分我覺得我們自己願意來參考來去做更大程度的評估。\n然後有關於七天假的部分你過去是說立委任內說要反應給行政機關那現在你也當家了你現在說要繼續彙整那請問你現在還願意給勞工來減低過勞嗎有關於七天假的部分然後要去跟內政部溝通的部分我跟廖委員說明確實現在在國定假日相關的規範目前的相關的法規是主持在內政部下我想你也很清楚\n但是我們很願意來反映現在勞工朋友各界的聲音讓內政部知道反映了嗎當然我們也願意把這樣子相關的聲音我們自己很願意來跟內政部討論除了反映之外還有什麼積極作為可以推動這個就如果內政部或者大家要做跨部會討論的話我們也很願意跟內政部來討論你會強硬的要求嗎這個站在勞動部的立場\n這個涉及當然涉及到跨部會的職權的部分因為其實今天講到這個我們能做也有這個相關的對所以我們能夠做的當然是我們把相關勞工的聲音要去要確切的反映讓內政部知道所以我們部長現在能夠做的就是反映而已因為這個議題本身它涉及到跨部會的權責好沒關係部長請你好好的反映\n那根據就業服務法第55條規定申請家庭看護或是家事移工的時候若僱主為身心障礙者他還仍需繳納就業安定費那一般家庭是繳納2000塊那中低收入或低收入可以減免那這項規定其實也被身心障礙族群稱之為障礙稅\n但是部長根據這個CRPD工業的精神跟障礙平權的觀點國家是有責任要去擬平障礙者跟健全者在生活各方面的落差那當國家沒有辦法提供這樣的支持的時候而障礙者還必須自力救濟聘請這個移工看護但還要被國家課徵所謂的障礙稅請問部長你認為這樣規定合理嗎?\n那個跟要人說明目前其實這個關於弱勢家庭的部分或中低收入的部分其實已經是免繳救援訂費那我們現在其實也要求在檢討是不是有擴大弱勢家庭的這個免繳的範疇。部長我剛剛已經說了這個是RPD的公約的精神其實這個身心障礙者他自己\n公務及基金預算及重建中心114年度預算\n請問這樣不是國家製造增加他們的障礙嗎?那個跟廖長遠說明我自己我認為關於這個外籍看護工的家庭就案訂費的部分我認為是有開放可以有開放討論跟檢討的空間的\n只有開放討論跟檢討嗎?部長可以回去好好的研議嗎?當然,我們當然會做各種情境的評估。請問這樣子你有沒有什麼時程?好,我簡單的講一下,其實這個問題我之前也請教過何沛山部長,那他是有給我正面的回應跟你一樣,說要研議,可是其實也不了了,我知道。那現在,\n因為就業服務法的第55條雖然規定僱主應向中央主管機關設置的就業安定基金專戶繳納就業安定費但法條中其實沒有具體明定具體的金額\n所以我想要請問部長這有沒有可能透過修正執法或行政函式的方式理論上可以減少或者是免除這個障礙者的繳納義務如果要調整當然在這個如果要調整的話當然是在執法裡面修訂就可以但我想重點是這個如果要調整的話它涉及到的幅度跟它的影響\n範圍你也知道這並影響不小。其實部長我看你應該要進促啟動演繹什麼時候可以給個具體的回應。我們其實上週其實已經請發言組做一些相關的演繹討論。 那請問部長你覺得大概多久時間可以有具體的回應。\n三個月好嗎?三個月嗎?對。好,那我們期待三個月後部長可以盡速給這些身心障礙者一個我們確實在思考怎麼來降低關於這些這個外籍看護工、僱主他可能的負擔。這部分我們在思考這件事情。好,那請部長三個月趕快給出一個正面的回應。那目前這個剛剛講到就是扯到就業安定費\n那這些費用最終就是進到就業安定基金嘛那成為基金的資金來源那這一次喔很大的風波也就是剛剛很多人都問到就業安定基金被不當挪用的問題喔其實我們也接到非常多的雇主的陳情他們覺得\n自己已經多花錢去繳了這個就業安定基金然後給政府結果政府本來亂用所以他們非常的不滿意那我想要請您參考一下這張表格就業安定基金的這個媒體政策及業務宣導費那該項支出從111年的1.09億開始連年的成長到了114年預算編列達\n二點一七億喔那將近成長了兩倍我想請問一下這樣成長的比例是不是過高如果這個金額成長了兩倍我是不是可以期待宣傳的效應應該要提升兩倍\n是跟委員報告過去這個部分的宣導費用主要是會大幅擴充的原因是因為我們在全國技能競賽的規模在過去兩年為了要擴大它的宣傳效果所以把它的規模做大了再一個就是因為今明年的11月那個亞洲技能競賽也要在臺灣所以這個部分除了辦理全國賽擴大之外這兩個占了多少比例然後然後跟你們成長的比例是差別在哪裡\n這兩個部分所佔的比率我覺得你講不出來不要亂硬塞喔我想問一下這個成長比例你覺得跟臺灣GDP成長物價漲幅有關嗎我們在今年110我們在114年的時候我們的這個國際賽的競賽的宣傳項目是增加了5000萬\n那跟之前比起來呢?在113年的時候是3800萬左右。所以你就是增加了1000多萬可是你整體增加了快5000萬。我跟你講目前舊安晶晶你們爭議的部分也可以參考一下下面。包含這個裝潢修辦公空間還有設備升級等等的各種還有垃圾清運網路行銷等等\n針對救安基金應該是促進就業提升勞工福祉跟外國人聘僱等目的請問你覺得這些應用支應妥當嗎部長跟廖委員說明其實這裡面其實蠻多項目他看起來只比方說他可能像是一些行政費用但他可能是去因應包括這些比方說救福的站點或者是他其實相關的一些設備的維持其實有其實就像上次講的這個咖啡豆有增加到勞工福祉嗎對\n然後還有非常多非常多相關的細節其實上次我也有跟您質詢過但是我並不認為這確實我並不認為這裡面每一項都適合用救安基金來支付所以我要跟委員說明的事情是我不會說這裡面每一個項目其實都是有問題的並不是這樣它確實有它在使用上面的目的但在項目的適合適宜性上面我的確認為有些部分其實不應該用救安基金來使用對所以其實就是耐用\n所以其實就是救援基金被濫用嗎?\n那是不是被濫用?\n有檢討空間可是你也不願意正面回應說是不是被濫用好所以你認為是前朝的事那也不願意概括承受你現在覺得要檢討有檢討的空間啦\n那你上次也不願意針對這件事情就是濫用救安基金的這個責任去道歉我是覺得很遺憾但是我要講的事情是其實10年前的時候在前任部長潘世偉他離任的時候就有說過救安基金就是勞動部的小金庫每其名為公卻以私利為目的\n那其實就是10年後要不是因為發生了這個霸凌的事件我想在沒有人監督的亂象之下只會加劇所以請問部長其實你剛剛都有說過要改革改革這樣亂象是不是應該要把這些看似跟救安基金目的沾上邊的相關預算應該都編入公務預算中讓救安基金回歸他使用的目的\n跟那個人說明我們確實也覺得我們需要去跟向行政爭取在勞動部的公務預算裡面是不是能夠擴大所以對於某些的一些支出不一定一定是要用救安電基金而是能夠回到公務預算裡面這是我們也覺得該去努力的目標那針對救安基金的我其實前面有說過我們希望能夠讓他的管理更監理化對好那部長講到這個\n所以其實救安基金的爭議還有包含之前我上禮拜也提出了過去有這個3000萬要補助高雄市政府辦活動然後根據會議記錄這筆補助是在他的前一年的11月23日臨時會議臨時動議的提案方式通過那隔年3月1號第105次會議才就業平等司去提案所需經費4000萬便列於提升勞工福祉項目當中但是部長這個東西我想救安基金的疑慮已經很深了\n目前能夠查閱的僅有這個會議記錄若非像我們這樣子去對跨年度的會議記錄去做對比根本沒有辦法追蹤相關的事宜而且審議委員會的過程沒有公開審查我認為基於這個就業基金長期被亂用不良記錄是不是剛剛部長有說要更有這個\n審查在這個監審上面要更公開透明是不是應該要把審議會議的全程錄音錄影像立法院委員會一樣放在網站上供全國人民查閱共同監督請問部長是否支持六人就你剛才現在講的這個案例我就我知道後來高雄市政府其實已經有把這個計劃撤回沒錯我知道撤回\n我上禮拜委員會撤回但是整個過程其實是因為當時有被拿出來在立法院檢討包含楊耀偉人等等的變成軒然大波所以他才趕快撤回不然這也是一個嚴重的政治事件所以這是過去的事發生了但是這件事情的確就像你說的制度上有問題所以我們認為在機制上面包括事前的審查怎麼強化甚至事後計畫後的集合\n那也包括我們當然現在在檢討包括在收支管理辦法裏面部長我就問說部費的項目可不可以公開我覺得我覺得我們是可以做到更多我認為我們可以做到更多資訊的公開\n更多但是包含我剛剛所這個具體的建議嗎?就是我們現在錄影錄影的那個我們現在還在建保建保這個審議一樣我們我們現在還在做還在整體的檢討中但我自己認為我們是可以再做到更多的公開的部長你打你講的話都是很不具體的回應啊\n所以我只是講說這一件事情我也想全國公開這個跟國人同胞看這個其實應該是一個公開透明機制很很好的一個基本的要求可是我覺得部長可以正面回應了我覺得可以做到更多的公開所以你可以比這個更多對不對當然可以比現在更多的公開但是我現在意思是說因為我們現在這個\n錄影錄影的以下：我現在說我的意思是說因為我們真的現在正在檢討中所以關於這些細節的做法其實現在也在討論中好部長我就進一步追啦為什麼一定要這樣做我跟你說同樣的會議幾乎總也有寫到如果辦理高雄市或是辦理這類的活動經費不足的話再以併決算的方式來辦理那也發現這就是救安基金動用上的常態啊\n雖然做法上你覺得好像預算法有法源依據但其實這等同於削弱和閹割立法院的監督權就算我們再怎麼努力監督不管公務預算或是救安基金其實都是徒勞因為你們編列是一回事立法委員這個立法院的委員審查又是一回事但最終你們都說自行操之並決算處理那一套基本上就是想怎麼用怎麼用\n這個做法每期名是彈性、陰硬可是事實上就是讓它不公開、不透明而且讓我們沒有辦法好好審查的一個原因那個跟那個人說沒有我們現在確實也看到在救安基金的收支管理辦法裡面其實有部分的項目我們要怎麼樣更嚴格的把關這部分部長我要跟你說救安基金濫用了這個所謂的併決算的方式\n蘭用了這個所謂並決算的方式你並決算就是編列等於是編列不死嘛等於是可能導致機關故意低估然後變日後來並決算那也缺乏所謂的透明度並決算的過程幾乎缺乏透明度不利於公眾監督所以為什麼我說你們在這個審查會議應該要\n讓這個錄音錄影的影像全部公開而且每一條明細應該要很詳細的交代否則你完全讓國人尤其是這些繳納就業安定基金的對於政府完全是沒有信心沒有信任他們不知道他們到底在繳這個安定基金是真的有照顧到老百姓提升到我們勞工的權益嗎還是只是部長或是我們部內的小金庫隨意亂花\n我以上講到這裡就是希望我剛剛的訴求就是是不是未來在這部分的審理應該是更加的可以把錄音錄影都公開上網。那第一個我要表達的事情是我並不覺得有所謂病決算的狀況就一定叫做編列不實。這之間並不是等價。我說這是閉端這是閉端而且還有不夠公開透明。但是如果有病決算的狀況我確實覺得應該盡量的減少。\n三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部部長列席報告業務概況：一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部部長列席報告業務．僅\n一月後您的這個機制的檢討我們也可以看到這樣子的一個決定謝謝謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:14.074 --> 00:16.595\n謝主席有請紅部長有請紅部長的好部長你好部長勞動部最新公佈了我國2023年的年總工時要打\n\n00:31.284 --> 00:50.866\n兩千二十個小時為世界第二那全國更有二十五萬人的周公時大於六十個小時整個台灣已經陷入極度的過勞可以說透過過勞讓世界看到台灣想請問一下部長你覺得造成這個事情的原因如何有沒有什麼應對的方式\n\n00:53.473 --> 01:08.351\n從勞動部的角度來說當然希望能夠協助勞工降低工時的負擔這當然是我們整體的目標那在做法上面原因是什麼你們有檢討原因是什麼為什麼又比上一年多加了15個小時\n\n01:12.660 --> 01:42.095\n報告委員那有關我們的工時的那個平均數那是每一人的每年平均工時他含括了所謂的部分工時和全時勞工那在跟國際比較的時候我國的部分工時勞工佔比只有3%那像日本和韓國他的這個這個應該是說我們每一年你如果要第一個跟國家比跟國際比是一回事好國際比我們的數據已經很糟糕但是你跟自己比你今年也比去年再增加了所以還有什麼理由呢\n\n01:43.476 --> 01:53.806\n這個今年的部分的話他其實是回到疫情前的狀況我們慢慢的復甦回來到疫情前的情況疫情的有沒有什麼應對方式現在有沒有什麼應對方式要讓他降下來\n\n01:55.219 --> 02:22.546\n那個跟文說明幾個部分其實我們現在都規劃在做第一個部分其實就是包括像過去我們其實大家都知道夠病的低薪的問題要怎麼讓低薪的問題能夠比較大克服這部分很重要的原因是在於我們我們知道其實會有一部分的勞工是因為他的薪水過低所以他必須透過加班的方式來增加他的收入所以包括我們現在現在在推動包括像是薪資的透明化\n\n02:23.286 --> 02:40.214\n也包括這幾年一直不斷調高的基本工資這部分都是希望能夠去讓低薪的問題能夠多一點就你今年還會再調高基本工資嗎這當然不是我現在這邊能夠說的事情可是我的意思說這幾年我們陸續在做這件事情\n\n02:40.794 --> 03:06.563\n這是第一個部分第二個部分我們也希望能夠來建立勞資之間的協商機制或讓協商機制可以做得更好希望可以讓更多比方跟公會切團體協約因為團體協約其實就可以做到優於法規的這個合理公時的規範老部長那個全國產業總公會的理事長有指出可以有相對應的這個政策比如說如果是積極減少公時的部分是\n\n03:07.163 --> 03:29.898\n包含鼓勵事辦7月週休3日國定假日法制化還有適用勞基法84之1條的責任制行業別重新檢討。請問以上這些制度這個全國產業總工會理事長提出來的您支持嗎?這裡面有幾個部分我覺得我們自己願意來參考來去做更大程度的評估。\n\n03:30.538 --> 03:54.376\n然後有關於七天假的部分你過去是說立委任內說要反應給行政機關那現在你也當家了你現在說要繼續彙整那請問你現在還願意給勞工來減低過勞嗎有關於七天假的部分然後要去跟內政部溝通的部分我跟廖委員說明確實現在在國定假日相關的規範目前的相關的法規是主持在內政部下我想你也很清楚\n\n03:54.936 --> 04:17.833\n但是我們很願意來反映現在勞工朋友各界的聲音讓內政部知道反映了嗎當然我們也願意把這樣子相關的聲音我們自己很願意來跟內政部討論除了反映之外還有什麼積極作為可以推動這個就如果內政部或者大家要做跨部會討論的話我們也很願意跟內政部來討論你會強硬的要求嗎這個站在勞動部的立場\n\n04:23.697 --> 04:43.753\n這個涉及當然涉及到跨部會的職權的部分因為其實今天講到這個我們能做也有這個相關的對所以我們能夠做的當然是我們把相關勞工的聲音要去要確切的反映讓內政部知道所以我們部長現在能夠做的就是反映而已因為這個議題本身它涉及到跨部會的權責好沒關係部長請你好好的反映\n\n04:44.494 --> 05:05.219\n那根據就業服務法第55條規定申請家庭看護或是家事移工的時候若僱主為身心障礙者他還仍需繳納就業安定費那一般家庭是繳納2000塊那中低收入或低收入可以減免那這項規定其實也被身心障礙族群稱之為障礙稅\n\n05:07.694 --> 05:32.124\n但是部長根據這個CRPD工業的精神跟障礙平權的觀點國家是有責任要去擬平障礙者跟健全者在生活各方面的落差那當國家沒有辦法提供這樣的支持的時候而障礙者還必須自力救濟聘請這個移工看護但還要被國家課徵所謂的障礙稅請問部長你認為這樣規定合理嗎?\n\n05:34.795 --> 05:57.821\n那個跟要人說明目前其實這個關於弱勢家庭的部分或中低收入的部分其實已經是免繳救援訂費那我們現在其實也要求在檢討是不是有擴大弱勢家庭的這個免繳的範疇。部長我剛剛已經說了這個是RPD的公約的精神其實這個身心障礙者他自己\n\n05:58.641 --> 05:59.703\n公務及基金預算及重建中心114年度預算\n\n06:13.796 --> 06:27.908\n請問這樣不是國家製造增加他們的障礙嗎?那個跟廖長遠說明我自己我認為關於這個外籍看護工的家庭就案訂費的部分我認為是有開放可以有開放討論跟檢討的空間的\n\n06:29.289 --> 06:49.098\n只有開放討論跟檢討嗎?部長可以回去好好的研議嗎?當然,我們當然會做各種情境的評估。請問這樣子你有沒有什麼時程?好,我簡單的講一下,其實這個問題我之前也請教過何沛山部長,那他是有給我正面的回應跟你一樣,說要研議,可是其實也不了了,我知道。那現在,\n\n06:50.459 --> 07:05.124\n因為就業服務法的第55條雖然規定僱主應向中央主管機關設置的就業安定基金專戶繳納就業安定費但法條中其實沒有具體明定具體的金額\n\n07:06.144 --> 07:28.349\n所以我想要請問部長這有沒有可能透過修正執法或行政函式的方式理論上可以減少或者是免除這個障礙者的繳納義務如果要調整當然在這個如果要調整的話當然是在執法裡面修訂就可以但我想重點是這個如果要調整的話它涉及到的幅度跟它的影響\n\n07:30.030 --> 07:46.911\n範圍你也知道這並影響不小。其實部長我看你應該要進促啟動演繹什麼時候可以給個具體的回應。我們其實上週其實已經請發言組做一些相關的演繹討論。那請問部長你覺得大概多久時間可以有具體的回應。\n\n07:51.471 --> 08:17.903\n三個月好嗎?三個月嗎?對。好,那我們期待三個月後部長可以盡速給這些身心障礙者一個我們確實在思考怎麼來降低關於這些這個外籍看護工、僱主他可能的負擔。這部分我們在思考這件事情。好,那請部長三個月趕快給出一個正面的回應。那目前這個剛剛講到就是扯到就業安定費\n\n08:19.332 --> 08:33.794\n那這些費用最終就是進到就業安定基金嘛那成為基金的資金來源那這一次喔很大的風波也就是剛剛很多人都問到就業安定基金被不當挪用的問題喔其實我們也接到非常多的雇主的陳情他們覺得\n\n08:34.815 --> 08:50.750\n自己已經多花錢去繳了這個就業安定基金然後給政府結果政府本來亂用所以他們非常的不滿意那我想要請您參考一下這張表格就業安定基金的這個媒體政策及業務宣導費那該項支出從111年的1.09億開始連年的成長到了114年預算編列達\n\n09:00.011 --> 09:14.348\n二點一七億喔那將近成長了兩倍我想請問一下這樣成長的比例是不是過高如果這個金額成長了兩倍我是不是可以期待宣傳的效應應該要提升兩倍\n\n09:15.140 --> 09:41.178\n是跟委員報告過去這個部分的宣導費用主要是會大幅擴充的原因是因為我們在全國技能競賽的規模在過去兩年為了要擴大它的宣傳效果所以把它的規模做大了再一個就是因為今明年的11月那個亞洲技能競賽也要在臺灣所以這個部分除了辦理全國賽擴大之外這兩個占了多少比例然後然後跟你們成長的比例是差別在哪裡\n\n09:43.016 --> 09:56.944\n這兩個部分所佔的比率我覺得你講不出來不要亂硬塞喔我想問一下這個成長比例你覺得跟臺灣GDP成長物價漲幅有關嗎我們在今年110我們在114年的時候我們的這個國際賽的競賽的宣傳項目是增加了5000萬\n\n10:07.318 --> 10:22.905\n那跟之前比起來呢?在113年的時候是3800萬左右。所以你就是增加了1000多萬可是你整體增加了快5000萬。我跟你講目前舊安晶晶你們爭議的部分也可以參考一下下面。包含這個裝潢修辦公空間還有設備升級等等的各種還有垃圾清運網路行銷等等\n\n10:38.009 --> 11:06.376\n針對救安基金應該是促進就業提升勞工福祉跟外國人聘僱等目的請問你覺得這些應用支應妥當嗎部長跟廖委員說明其實這裡面其實蠻多項目他看起來只比方說他可能像是一些行政費用但他可能是去因應包括這些比方說救福的站點或者是他其實相關的一些設備的維持其實有其實就像上次講的這個咖啡豆有增加到勞工福祉嗎對\n\n11:07.716 --> 11:35.749\n然後還有非常多非常多相關的細節其實上次我也有跟您質詢過但是我並不認為這確實我並不認為這裡面每一項都適合用救安基金來支付所以我要跟委員說明的事情是我不會說這裡面每一個項目其實都是有問題的並不是這樣它確實有它在使用上面的目的但在項目的適合適宜性上面我的確認為有些部分其實不應該用救安基金來使用對所以其實就是耐用\n\n11:36.309 --> 11:38.972\n所以其實就是救援基金被濫用嗎?\n\n11:38.972 --> 11:40.234\n那是不是被濫用?\n\n11:40.234 --> 11:49.004\n有檢討空間可是你也不願意正面回應說是不是被濫用好所以你認為是前朝的事那也不願意概括承受你現在覺得要檢討有檢討的空間啦\n\n11:51.186 --> 12:11.857\n那你上次也不願意針對這件事情就是濫用救安基金的這個責任去道歉我是覺得很遺憾但是我要講的事情是其實10年前的時候在前任部長潘世偉他離任的時候就有說過救安基金就是勞動部的小金庫每其名為公卻以私利為目的\n\n12:12.779 --> 12:36.167\n那其實就是10年後要不是因為發生了這個霸凌的事件我想在沒有人監督的亂象之下只會加劇所以請問部長其實你剛剛都有說過要改革改革這樣亂象是不是應該要把這些看似跟救安基金目的沾上邊的相關預算應該都編入公務預算中讓救安基金回歸他使用的目的\n\n12:37.808 --> 13:03.357\n跟那個人說明我們確實也覺得我們需要去跟向行政爭取在勞動部的公務預算裡面是不是能夠擴大所以對於某些的一些支出不一定一定是要用救安電基金而是能夠回到公務預算裡面這是我們也覺得該去努力的目標那針對救安基金的我其實前面有說過我們希望能夠讓他的管理更監理化對好那部長講到這個\n\n13:04.978 --> 13:34.145\n所以其實救安基金的爭議還有包含之前我上禮拜也提出了過去有這個3000萬要補助高雄市政府辦活動然後根據會議記錄這筆補助是在他的前一年的11月23日臨時會議臨時動議的提案方式通過那隔年3月1號第105次會議才就業平等司去提案所需經費4000萬便列於提升勞工福祉項目當中但是部長這個東西我想救安基金的疑慮已經很深了\n\n13:34.725 --> 13:53.237\n目前能夠查閱的僅有這個會議記錄若非像我們這樣子去對跨年度的會議記錄去做對比根本沒有辦法追蹤相關的事宜而且審議委員會的過程沒有公開審查我認為基於這個就業基金長期被亂用不良記錄是不是剛剛部長有說要更有這個\n\n13:54.798 --> 14:13.713\n審查在這個監審上面要更公開透明是不是應該要把審議會議的全程錄音錄影像立法院委員會一樣放在網站上供全國人民查閱共同監督請問部長是否支持六人就你剛才現在講的這個案例我就我知道後來高雄市政府其實已經有把這個計劃撤回沒錯我知道撤回\n\n14:14.574 --> 14:40.052\n我上禮拜委員會撤回但是整個過程其實是因為當時有被拿出來在立法院檢討包含楊耀偉人等等的變成軒然大波所以他才趕快撤回不然這也是一個嚴重的政治事件所以這是過去的事發生了但是這件事情的確就像你說的制度上有問題所以我們認為在機制上面包括事前的審查怎麼強化甚至事後計畫後的集合\n\n14:41.013 --> 14:52.175\n那也包括我們當然現在在檢討包括在收支管理辦法裏面部長我就問說部費的項目可不可以公開我覺得我覺得我們是可以做到更多我認為我們可以做到更多資訊的公開\n\n14:53.308 --> 15:11.930\n更多但是包含我剛剛所這個具體的建議嗎?就是我們現在錄影錄影的那個我們現在還在建保建保這個審議一樣我們我們現在還在做還在整體的檢討中但我自己認為我們是可以再做到更多的公開的部長你打你講的話都是很不具體的回應啊\n\n15:12.691 --> 15:31.943\n所以我只是講說這一件事情我也想全國公開這個跟國人同胞看這個其實應該是一個公開透明機制很很好的一個基本的要求可是我覺得部長可以正面回應了我覺得可以做到更多的公開所以你可以比這個更多對不對當然可以比現在更多的公開但是我現在意思是說因為我們現在這個\n\n15:37.186 --> 16:03.942\n錄影錄影的以下：我現在說我的意思是說因為我們真的現在正在檢討中所以關於這些細節的做法其實現在也在討論中好部長我就進一步追啦為什麼一定要這樣做我跟你說同樣的會議幾乎總也有寫到如果辦理高雄市或是辦理這類的活動經費不足的話再以併決算的方式來辦理那也發現這就是救安基金動用上的常態啊\n\n16:05.383 --> 16:30.422\n雖然做法上你覺得好像預算法有法源依據但其實這等同於削弱和閹割立法院的監督權就算我們再怎麼努力監督不管公務預算或是救安基金其實都是徒勞因為你們編列是一回事立法委員這個立法院的委員審查又是一回事但最終你們都說自行操之並決算處理那一套基本上就是想怎麼用怎麼用\n\n16:31.162 --> 16:58.024\n這個做法每期名是彈性、陰硬可是事實上就是讓它不公開、不透明而且讓我們沒有辦法好好審查的一個原因那個跟那個人說沒有我們現在確實也看到在救安基金的收支管理辦法裡面其實有部分的項目我們要怎麼樣更嚴格的把關這部分部長我要跟你說救安基金濫用了這個所謂的併決算的方式\n\n16:59.825 --> 17:19.731\n蘭用了這個所謂並決算的方式你並決算就是編列等於是編列不死嘛等於是可能導致機關故意低估然後變日後來並決算那也缺乏所謂的透明度並決算的過程幾乎缺乏透明度不利於公眾監督所以為什麼我說你們在這個審查會議應該要\n\n17:22.612 --> 17:46.643\n讓這個錄音錄影的影像全部公開而且每一條明細應該要很詳細的交代否則你完全讓國人尤其是這些繳納就業安定基金的對於政府完全是沒有信心沒有信任他們不知道他們到底在繳這個安定基金是真的有照顧到老百姓提升到我們勞工的權益嗎還是只是部長或是我們部內的小金庫隨意亂花\n\n17:48.644 --> 18:14.302\n我以上講到這裡就是希望我剛剛的訴求就是是不是未來在這部分的審理應該是更加的可以把錄音錄影都公開上網。那第一個我要表達的事情是我並不覺得有所謂病決算的狀況就一定叫做編列不實。這之間並不是等價。我說這是閉端這是閉端而且還有不夠公開透明。但是如果有病決算的狀況我確實覺得應該盡量的減少。\n\n18:17.565 --> 18:21.348\n三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部部長列席報告業務概況：一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部部長列席報告業務．僅\n\n18:46.988 --> 18:49.230\n一月後您的這個機制的檢討我們也可以看到這樣子的一個決定謝謝謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":14.074,"end":16.595,"text":"謝主席有請紅部長有請紅部長的好部長你好部長勞動部最新公佈了我國2023年的年總工時要打"},{"start":31.284,"end":50.866,"text":"兩千二十個小時為世界第二那全國更有二十五萬人的周公時大於六十個小時整個台灣已經陷入極度的過勞可以說透過過勞讓世界看到台灣想請問一下部長你覺得造成這個事情的原因如何有沒有什麼應對的方式"},{"start":53.473,"end":68.351,"text":"從勞動部的角度來說當然希望能夠協助勞工降低工時的負擔這當然是我們整體的目標那在做法上面原因是什麼你們有檢討原因是什麼為什麼又比上一年多加了15個小時"},{"start":72.66,"end":102.095,"text":"報告委員那有關我們的工時的那個平均數那是每一人的每年平均工時他含括了所謂的部分工時和全時勞工那在跟國際比較的時候我國的部分工時勞工佔比只有3%那像日本和韓國他的這個這個應該是說我們每一年你如果要第一個跟國家比跟國際比是一回事好國際比我們的數據已經很糟糕但是你跟自己比你今年也比去年再增加了所以還有什麼理由呢"},{"start":103.476,"end":113.806,"text":"這個今年的部分的話他其實是回到疫情前的狀況我們慢慢的復甦回來到疫情前的情況疫情的有沒有什麼應對方式現在有沒有什麼應對方式要讓他降下來"},{"start":115.219,"end":142.546,"text":"那個跟文說明幾個部分其實我們現在都規劃在做第一個部分其實就是包括像過去我們其實大家都知道夠病的低薪的問題要怎麼讓低薪的問題能夠比較大克服這部分很重要的原因是在於我們我們知道其實會有一部分的勞工是因為他的薪水過低所以他必須透過加班的方式來增加他的收入所以包括我們現在現在在推動包括像是薪資的透明化"},{"start":143.286,"end":160.214,"text":"也包括這幾年一直不斷調高的基本工資這部分都是希望能夠去讓低薪的問題能夠多一點就你今年還會再調高基本工資嗎這當然不是我現在這邊能夠說的事情可是我的意思說這幾年我們陸續在做這件事情"},{"start":160.794,"end":186.563,"text":"這是第一個部分第二個部分我們也希望能夠來建立勞資之間的協商機制或讓協商機制可以做得更好希望可以讓更多比方跟公會切團體協約因為團體協約其實就可以做到優於法規的這個合理公時的規範 老部長那個全國產業總公會的理事長有指出可以有相對應的這個政策比如說如果是積極減少公時的部分 是"},{"start":187.163,"end":209.898,"text":"包含鼓勵事辦7月週休3日國定假日法制化還有適用勞基法84之1條的責任制行業別重新檢討。請問以上這些制度這個全國產業總工會理事長提出來的您支持嗎?這裡面有幾個部分我覺得我們自己願意來參考來去做更大程度的評估。"},{"start":210.538,"end":234.376,"text":"然後有關於七天假的部分你過去是說立委任內說要反應給行政機關那現在你也當家了你現在說要繼續彙整那請問你現在還願意給勞工來減低過勞嗎有關於七天假的部分然後要去跟內政部溝通的部分我跟廖委員說明確實現在在國定假日相關的規範目前的相關的法規是主持在內政部下我想你也很清楚"},{"start":234.936,"end":257.833,"text":"但是我們很願意來反映現在勞工朋友各界的聲音讓內政部知道反映了嗎當然我們也願意把這樣子相關的聲音我們自己很願意來跟內政部討論除了反映之外還有什麼積極作為可以推動這個就如果內政部或者大家要做跨部會討論的話我們也很願意跟內政部來討論你會強硬的要求嗎這個站在勞動部的立場"},{"start":263.697,"end":283.753,"text":"這個涉及當然涉及到跨部會的職權的部分因為其實今天講到這個我們能做也有這個相關的對所以我們能夠做的當然是我們把相關勞工的聲音要去要確切的反映讓內政部知道所以我們部長現在能夠做的就是反映而已因為這個議題本身它涉及到跨部會的權責好沒關係部長請你好好的反映"},{"start":284.494,"end":305.219,"text":"那根據就業服務法第55條規定申請家庭看護或是家事移工的時候若僱主為身心障礙者他還仍需繳納就業安定費那一般家庭是繳納2000塊那中低收入或低收入可以減免那這項規定其實也被身心障礙族群稱之為障礙稅"},{"start":307.694,"end":332.124,"text":"但是部長根據這個CRPD工業的精神跟障礙平權的觀點國家是有責任要去擬平障礙者跟健全者在生活各方面的落差那當國家沒有辦法提供這樣的支持的時候而障礙者還必須自力救濟聘請這個移工看護但還要被國家課徵所謂的障礙稅請問部長你認為這樣規定合理嗎?"},{"start":334.795,"end":357.821,"text":"那個跟要人說明目前其實這個關於弱勢家庭的部分或中低收入的部分其實已經是免繳救援訂費那我們現在其實也要求在檢討是不是有擴大弱勢家庭的這個免繳的範疇。部長我剛剛已經說了這個是RPD的公約的精神其實這個身心障礙者他自己"},{"start":358.641,"end":359.703,"text":"公務及基金預算及重建中心114年度預算"},{"start":373.796,"end":387.908,"text":"請問這樣不是國家製造增加他們的障礙嗎?那個跟廖長遠說明我自己我認為關於這個外籍看護工的家庭就案訂費的部分我認為是有開放可以有開放討論跟檢討的空間的"},{"start":389.289,"end":409.098,"text":"只有開放討論跟檢討嗎?部長可以回去好好的研議嗎?當然,我們當然會做各種情境的評估。請問這樣子你有沒有什麼時程?好,我簡單的講一下,其實這個問題我之前也請教過何沛山部長,那他是有給我正面的回應跟你一樣,說要研議,可是其實也不了了,我知道。那現在,"},{"start":410.459,"end":425.124,"text":"因為就業服務法的第55條雖然規定僱主應向中央主管機關設置的就業安定基金專戶繳納就業安定費但法條中其實沒有具體明定具體的金額"},{"start":426.144,"end":448.349,"text":"所以我想要請問部長這有沒有可能透過修正執法或行政函式的方式理論上可以減少或者是免除這個障礙者的繳納義務如果要調整當然在這個如果要調整的話當然是在執法裡面修訂就可以但我想重點是這個如果要調整的話它涉及到的幅度跟它的影響"},{"start":450.03,"end":466.911,"text":"範圍你也知道這並影響不小。其實部長我看你應該要進促啟動演繹什麼時候可以給個具體的回應。我們其實上週其實已經請發言組做一些相關的演繹討論。 那請問部長你覺得大概多久時間可以有具體的回應。"},{"start":471.471,"end":497.903,"text":"三個月好嗎?三個月嗎?對。好,那我們期待三個月後部長可以盡速給這些身心障礙者一個我們確實在思考怎麼來降低關於這些這個外籍看護工、僱主他可能的負擔。這部分我們在思考這件事情。好,那請部長三個月趕快給出一個正面的回應。那目前這個剛剛講到就是扯到就業安定費"},{"start":499.332,"end":513.794,"text":"那這些費用最終就是進到就業安定基金嘛那成為基金的資金來源那這一次喔很大的風波也就是剛剛很多人都問到就業安定基金被不當挪用的問題喔其實我們也接到非常多的雇主的陳情他們覺得"},{"start":514.815,"end":530.75,"text":"自己已經多花錢去繳了這個就業安定基金然後給政府結果政府本來亂用所以他們非常的不滿意那我想要請您參考一下這張表格就業安定基金的這個媒體政策及業務宣導費那該項支出從111年的1.09億開始連年的成長到了114年預算編列達"},{"start":540.011,"end":554.348,"text":"二點一七億喔那將近成長了兩倍我想請問一下這樣成長的比例是不是過高如果這個金額成長了兩倍我是不是可以期待宣傳的效應應該要提升兩倍"},{"start":555.14,"end":581.178,"text":"是跟委員報告過去這個部分的宣導費用主要是會大幅擴充的原因是因為我們在全國技能競賽的規模在過去兩年為了要擴大它的宣傳效果所以把它的規模做大了再一個就是因為今明年的11月那個亞洲技能競賽也要在臺灣所以這個部分除了辦理全國賽擴大之外這兩個占了多少比例然後然後跟你們成長的比例是差別在哪裡"},{"start":583.016,"end":596.944,"text":"這兩個部分所佔的比率我覺得你講不出來不要亂硬塞喔我想問一下這個成長比例你覺得跟臺灣GDP成長物價漲幅有關嗎我們在今年110我們在114年的時候我們的這個國際賽的競賽的宣傳項目是增加了5000萬"},{"start":607.318,"end":622.905,"text":"那跟之前比起來呢?在113年的時候是3800萬左右。所以你就是增加了1000多萬可是你整體增加了快5000萬。我跟你講目前舊安晶晶你們爭議的部分也可以參考一下下面。包含這個裝潢修辦公空間還有設備升級等等的各種還有垃圾清運網路行銷等等"},{"start":638.009,"end":666.376,"text":"針對救安基金應該是促進就業提升勞工福祉跟外國人聘僱等目的請問你覺得這些應用支應妥當嗎部長跟廖委員說明其實這裡面其實蠻多項目他看起來只比方說他可能像是一些行政費用但他可能是去因應包括這些比方說救福的站點或者是他其實相關的一些設備的維持其實有其實就像上次講的這個咖啡豆有增加到勞工福祉嗎對"},{"start":667.716,"end":695.749,"text":"然後還有非常多非常多相關的細節其實上次我也有跟您質詢過但是我並不認為這確實我並不認為這裡面每一項都適合用救安基金來支付所以我要跟委員說明的事情是我不會說這裡面每一個項目其實都是有問題的並不是這樣它確實有它在使用上面的目的但在項目的適合適宜性上面我的確認為有些部分其實不應該用救安基金來使用對所以其實就是耐用"},{"start":696.309,"end":698.972,"text":"所以其實就是救援基金被濫用嗎?"},{"start":698.972,"end":700.234,"text":"那是不是被濫用?"},{"start":700.234,"end":709.004,"text":"有檢討空間可是你也不願意正面回應說是不是被濫用好所以你認為是前朝的事那也不願意概括承受你現在覺得要檢討有檢討的空間啦"},{"start":711.186,"end":731.857,"text":"那你上次也不願意針對這件事情就是濫用救安基金的這個責任去道歉我是覺得很遺憾但是我要講的事情是其實10年前的時候在前任部長潘世偉他離任的時候就有說過救安基金就是勞動部的小金庫每其名為公卻以私利為目的"},{"start":732.779,"end":756.167,"text":"那其實就是10年後要不是因為發生了這個霸凌的事件我想在沒有人監督的亂象之下只會加劇所以請問部長其實你剛剛都有說過要改革改革這樣亂象是不是應該要把這些看似跟救安基金目的沾上邊的相關預算應該都編入公務預算中讓救安基金回歸他使用的目的"},{"start":757.808,"end":783.357,"text":"跟那個人說明我們確實也覺得我們需要去跟向行政爭取在勞動部的公務預算裡面是不是能夠擴大所以對於某些的一些支出不一定一定是要用救安電基金而是能夠回到公務預算裡面這是我們也覺得該去努力的目標那針對救安基金的我其實前面有說過我們希望能夠讓他的管理更監理化對好那部長講到這個"},{"start":784.978,"end":814.145,"text":"所以其實救安基金的爭議還有包含之前我上禮拜也提出了過去有這個3000萬要補助高雄市政府辦活動然後根據會議記錄這筆補助是在他的前一年的11月23日臨時會議臨時動議的提案方式通過那隔年3月1號第105次會議才就業平等司去提案所需經費4000萬便列於提升勞工福祉項目當中但是部長這個東西我想救安基金的疑慮已經很深了"},{"start":814.725,"end":833.237,"text":"目前能夠查閱的僅有這個會議記錄若非像我們這樣子去對跨年度的會議記錄去做對比根本沒有辦法追蹤相關的事宜而且審議委員會的過程沒有公開審查我認為基於這個就業基金長期被亂用不良記錄是不是剛剛部長有說要更有這個"},{"start":834.798,"end":853.713,"text":"審查在這個監審上面要更公開透明是不是應該要把審議會議的全程錄音錄影像立法院委員會一樣放在網站上供全國人民查閱共同監督請問部長是否支持六人就你剛才現在講的這個案例我就我知道後來高雄市政府其實已經有把這個計劃撤回沒錯我知道撤回"},{"start":854.574,"end":880.052,"text":"我上禮拜委員會撤回但是整個過程其實是因為當時有被拿出來在立法院檢討包含楊耀偉人等等的變成軒然大波所以他才趕快撤回不然這也是一個嚴重的政治事件所以這是過去的事發生了但是這件事情的確就像你說的制度上有問題所以我們認為在機制上面包括事前的審查怎麼強化甚至事後計畫後的集合"},{"start":881.013,"end":892.175,"text":"那也包括我們當然現在在檢討包括在收支管理辦法裏面部長我就問說部費的項目可不可以公開我覺得我覺得我們是可以做到更多我認為我們可以做到更多資訊的公開"},{"start":893.308,"end":911.93,"text":"更多但是包含我剛剛所這個具體的建議嗎?就是我們現在錄影錄影的那個我們現在還在建保建保這個審議一樣我們我們現在還在做還在整體的檢討中但我自己認為我們是可以再做到更多的公開的部長你打你講的話都是很不具體的回應啊"},{"start":912.691,"end":931.943,"text":"所以我只是講說這一件事情我也想全國公開這個跟國人同胞看這個其實應該是一個公開透明機制很很好的一個基本的要求可是我覺得部長可以正面回應了我覺得可以做到更多的公開所以你可以比這個更多對不對當然可以比現在更多的公開但是我現在意思是說因為我們現在這個"},{"start":937.186,"end":963.942,"text":"錄影錄影的以下：我現在說我的意思是說因為我們真的現在正在檢討中所以關於這些細節的做法其實現在也在討論中好部長我就進一步追啦為什麼一定要這樣做我跟你說同樣的會議幾乎總也有寫到如果辦理高雄市或是辦理這類的活動經費不足的話再以併決算的方式來辦理那也發現這就是救安基金動用上的常態啊"},{"start":965.383,"end":990.422,"text":"雖然做法上你覺得好像預算法有法源依據但其實這等同於削弱和閹割立法院的監督權就算我們再怎麼努力監督不管公務預算或是救安基金其實都是徒勞因為你們編列是一回事立法委員這個立法院的委員審查又是一回事但最終你們都說自行操之並決算處理那一套基本上就是想怎麼用怎麼用"},{"start":991.162,"end":1018.024,"text":"這個做法每期名是彈性、陰硬可是事實上就是讓它不公開、不透明而且讓我們沒有辦法好好審查的一個原因那個跟那個人說沒有我們現在確實也看到在救安基金的收支管理辦法裡面其實有部分的項目我們要怎麼樣更嚴格的把關這部分部長我要跟你說救安基金濫用了這個所謂的併決算的方式"},{"start":1019.825,"end":1039.731,"text":"蘭用了這個所謂並決算的方式你並決算就是編列等於是編列不死嘛等於是可能導致機關故意低估然後變日後來並決算那也缺乏所謂的透明度並決算的過程幾乎缺乏透明度不利於公眾監督所以為什麼我說你們在這個審查會議應該要"},{"start":1042.612,"end":1066.643,"text":"讓這個錄音錄影的影像全部公開而且每一條明細應該要很詳細的交代否則你完全讓國人尤其是這些繳納就業安定基金的對於政府完全是沒有信心沒有信任他們不知道他們到底在繳這個安定基金是真的有照顧到老百姓提升到我們勞工的權益嗎還是只是部長或是我們部內的小金庫隨意亂花"},{"start":1068.644,"end":1094.302,"text":"我以上講到這裡就是希望我剛剛的訴求就是是不是未來在這部分的審理應該是更加的可以把錄音錄影都公開上網。那第一個我要表達的事情是我並不覺得有所謂病決算的狀況就一定叫做編列不實。這之間並不是等價。我說這是閉端這是閉端而且還有不夠公開透明。但是如果有病決算的狀況我確實覺得應該盡量的減少。"},{"start":1097.565,"end":1101.348,"text":"三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部部長列席報告業務概況：一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部部長列席報告業務．僅"},{"start":1126.988,"end":1129.23,"text":"一月後您的這個機制的檢討我們也可以看到這樣子的一個決定謝謝謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":258,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（10時6分）謝謝主席，有請洪部長。"],["主席：有請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：廖委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，你好。勞動部最新公布了我國2023年的年總工時達2,020個小時，為世界第2，全國更有25萬人的週工時大於60個小時，整個臺灣已經陷入極度的過勞，可以說透過過勞讓世界看到臺灣，想請問一下部長，你覺得造成這個事情的原因如何？有沒有什麼應對的方式？"],["洪部長申翰：從勞動部的角度來說，當然希望能夠協助勞工降低工時的負擔，這當然是我們整體的目標，那在做法上面……"],["廖委員偉翔：原因是什麼？你們有檢討原因是什麼嗎？為什麼又比上一年多加了15個小時？"],["黃司長維琛：報告委員，有關我們工時的平均數，那是每一人的每年平均工時，含括了所謂的部分工時和全時勞工，那在跟國際比較的時候，我國的部分工時勞工占比只有3%，像日本和韓國的……"],["廖委員偉翔：這個應該是說我們每一年……第一個，你如果要跟國際比是一回事，跟國際比，我們的數據已經很糟糕，但是你跟自己比，你今年也比去年再增加了，所以還有什麼理由呢？"],["黃司長維琛：今年的部分的話，其實是回到疫情前的狀況，我們慢慢地復甦回來到疫情前的情況，疫情的……"],["廖委員偉翔：你有沒有什麼應對方式？現在有沒有什麼應對方式要讓它降下來？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，幾個部分其實我們現在都規劃在做，第一個部分，包括像過去大家都詬病的低薪問題，要怎麼讓低薪的問題能夠比較大的克服，這部分很重要的原因是在於，我們知道其實有一部分的勞工是因為他的薪水過低，所以他必須透過加班的方式來增加收入……"],["廖委員偉翔：那你要怎麼做到讓他加薪？"],["洪部長申翰：所以我們現在在推動包括像是薪資的透明化，也包括這幾年一直不斷調高的基本工資，這部分都是希望能夠讓低薪的問題能夠多一點的克服。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你今年還會再調高基本工資嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：這當然不是我現在這邊能夠說的事情，可是我的意思是，這幾年我們陸續在做這件事情，這是第一個部分。第二個部分，我們也希望能夠建立勞資之間的協商機制，讓協商機制可以做得更好，希望可以讓更多……比方說跟工會簽團體協約，因為團體協約其實就可以做到優於法規的合理工時的規範。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，全國產業總工會理事長有指出，可以有相對應的政策，比如說有關積極減少工時的部分，包含鼓勵試辦企業週休三日、國定假日法制化，還有適用勞基法第八十四之一條的責任制行業別重新檢討。請問全國產業總工會理事長提出來的以上這些制度，您支持嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：這裡面有幾個部分，我覺得我們自己願意來參考，去做更大程度的評估。"],["廖委員偉翔：然後有關於七天假的部分，你過去在立委任內說要反映給行政機關嘛！那現在你也當家了，你現在說要繼續彙整，請問你現在還願意給勞工減低過勞嗎？有關於7天假然後要去跟內政部溝通的部分。"],["洪部長申翰：我跟廖委員說明，確實現在在國定假日相關的規範，目前相關的法規是主責在內政部下，我想你也很清楚……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，所以你們跟內政部溝通得如何？"],["洪部長申翰：我們很願意反映勞工朋友與各界的聲音讓內政部知道……"],["廖委員偉翔：你反映了嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當然！我們願意把相關聲音……我們自己很願意跟內政部討論。"],["廖委員偉翔：除了反映之外，還有什麼積極作為可以推動還給勞工七天假？"],["洪部長申翰：如果內政部或大家要做跨部會討論的話，我們也很願意跟內政部討論……"],["廖委員偉翔：你會強硬要求嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：這個……"],["廖委員偉翔：站在勞動部的立場？"],["洪部長申翰：這涉及跨部會的職權……"],["廖委員偉翔：其實今天講的工時也有相關的……"],["洪部長申翰：對，所以我們能做的，當然是確切反映勞工相關的聲音讓內政部知道。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以部長現在能做的就是反映而已？"],["洪部長申翰：因為這個議題本身涉及跨部會權責。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，部長，請你好好反映！根據就業服務法第五十五條規定，申請家庭看護或家事移工時，若雇主為身心障礙者，仍須繳納就業安定費。一般家庭是繳納2,000元，中低收入戶或低收入戶可以減免。這項規定其實被身心障礙族群稱之為障礙稅。部長，根據CRPD公約精神與障礙平權觀點，國家有責任弭平障礙者與健全者在生活及各方面的落差。當國家無法提供如此支持時，障礙者必須自力救濟聘請移工看護，還必須被國家課徵障礙稅，請問部長認為這樣的規定合理嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟廖委員說明，目前弱勢家庭或中低收入戶免繳就業安定費，我們也在檢討是否擴大弱勢家庭的免繳範疇，其實我們已經在要求了……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我剛剛已經講了這是CRPD公約的精神，因為身心障礙者已經自己花錢聘請移工，這本來應該是政府的責任去弭平這些人與健全者的落差，現在他們自己聘了，還要被你們收取障礙稅，請問這不是國家在製造並增加他們的障礙嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟廖委員說明，有關聘用外籍看護工的家庭繳交就業安定費這點，我認為有開放討論與檢討的空間。"],["廖委員偉翔：只有開放討論與檢討嗎？部長回去可以好好研議嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當然，我們會做各種情境的評估。"],["廖委員偉翔：請問你有沒有什麼時程？我簡單講一下，這問題之前我也請教過何佩珊部長，他給我正面回應，說要研議，這點和部長一樣，但其實就是不了了之。就業服務法第五十五條雖然規定，雇主應向中央主管機關設置的就業安定基金專戶繳納就業安定費，但法條中其實沒有具體明訂金額。我想請問部長，有無可能透過修正子法或行政函釋方式來減少或免除身心障礙者的繳納義務？"],["洪部長申翰：如果要調整的話，當然是在子法中修訂即可，但重點是：調整所涉及的幅度及影響、範圍，我想委員也知道影響其實並不小。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長應該儘速啟動研議，看什麼時候可以給具體回應？"],["洪部長申翰：其實上週已經請發展署做相關研議了。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長覺得多久時間可以有具體回應？"],["洪部長申翰：三個月好嗎？"],["廖委員偉翔：三個月嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我們期待三個月後部長可以給這些身心障礙者正面的……"],["洪部長申翰：我們確實在思考怎麼來降低外籍看護工的雇主可能的負擔，我們有在思考這件事。"],["廖委員偉翔：請儘速在三個月內給出正面的回應。剛剛講到就業安定費，而這些費用最終進入就業安定基金，成為基金的資金來源。這一次引起很大風波，即剛剛大家都問到的，就業安定基金被不當挪用的問題。其實我們接到非常多雇主陳情，他們覺得自己已經多花錢繳了就業安定基金給政府，結果政府還亂用，所以他們感到非常不滿！請部長參考一下這張表格，也就是就業安定基金的媒體政策及業務宣導費，該項支出從111年的1.09億連年成長，到114年的預算編列達2.17億，成長將近兩倍！請問部長，這樣的成長比例是不是過高？如果金額成長兩倍，那麼我是不是可以期待宣傳效應也應該要提升兩倍？"],["陳代理署長世昌：跟委員報告，這部分的宣導費用會大幅擴充的主要原因，是因為在過去兩年為了擴大全國技能競賽的宣傳效果，所以把它的規模做大了。再一個原因，明年11月亞洲技能競賽也要在臺灣舉辦，所以除了辦理全國賽擴大之外……"],["廖委員偉翔：這兩個占了多少比率？然後你們預算成長的比率差別在哪裡？"],["陳代理署長世昌：這兩個部分所占的比率……"],["廖委員偉翔：你講不出來的話就不要硬塞！我問你，這個成長比率跟臺灣GDP成長、物價漲幅有關嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明亞太技能競賽宣傳費用。"],["黃組長俐文：114年的國際競賽宣傳項目增加了5,000萬。"],["廖委員偉翔：跟之前比起來呢？"],["黃組長俐文：113年是3,800萬左右。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以增加了一千多萬？可是整體卻增加了快5,000萬？"],["黃組長俐文：之所以會有這個幅度，是因為114年要舉辦亞洲賽，另外也有全國賽要舉辦。"],["廖委員偉翔：我想你們爭議的部分可以參考一下就安基金的狀況，竟然包含裝修辦公空間、設備升級、垃圾清運、網路行銷等等。就安基金應該是促進就業、提升勞工福祉跟外國人聘僱等目的，請問你覺得這些運用支應妥當嗎，部長？"],["洪部長申翰：跟廖委員說明，這裡面有滿多項目看起來像行政費用，但可能是為了因應就服的站點或相關設備的維持，其實有這部分……"],["廖委員偉翔：就像上次講的，咖啡豆可以增加勞工福祉嗎？其他還有非常多相關的細節都是。其實上次我質詢過……"],["洪部長申翰：確實我並不認為這裡面每一項都適合用就安基金來支付，我要跟委員說明的是，我不會說這裡面每一個項目都有問題，並不是這樣！它確實有它使用上的目的，但就項目的適宜性而言，我的確認為有些部分不應該用就安基金來使用……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以就安基金被濫用了！"],["洪部長申翰：我覺得有檢討空間。"],["廖委員偉翔：是不是被濫用？"],["洪部長申翰：我覺得有檢討空間。"],["廖委員偉翔：有檢討空間？可是你也不願意正面回應是不是被濫用。你認為這是前朝的事，卻也不願意概括承受，你現在只覺得有檢討的空間。上次你也不願意針對就安基金被濫用的責任道歉，我覺得很遺憾！我要講的是，其實十年前前任部長潘世偉離任時就說過，就安基金就是勞動部的小金庫，美其名為公，卻以私利為目的。十年後若不是因為發生霸凌事件，那麼這沒有人監督的亂象只會加劇！請問部長，你說要改革，既然要改革，那麼面對這樣的亂象，是不是應該把這些跟就安基金使用目的沾不上邊的預算改編入公務預算，讓就安基金回歸使用目的？"],["洪部長申翰：跟廖委員說明，我們確實也覺得需要向行政院爭取，讓勞動部公務預算擴大，這樣某些支出就不一定要使用就安基金，而是回到公務預算，這是我們也覺得該去努力的目標。我前面有說過，我們希望能夠讓就安基金的管理更監理化。"],["廖委員偉翔：對。講到這個，其實就安基金的爭議不只如此，我上禮拜就說到，過去曾補助高雄市政府3,000萬辦活動的事。根據會議紀錄，這筆補助是在前一年的11月23日臨時會議以臨時動議的提案方式通過，隔年3月1日第105次會議才由就業平等司提案，所需經費4,000萬，編列於提升勞工福祉項目當中。現在大家對就安基金的疑慮已經很深了，而目前能夠查閱的僅有這個會議紀錄，若非我們就跨年度的會議紀錄去做對比的話，根本無法追蹤相關事宜，而且審議委員會並沒有公開審查。基於就安基金有長期被亂用的不良紀錄，剛剛部長有說在監審上面要更公開、透明，是不是應該要把審議會議的全程錄音、錄影像立法院一樣放在網站上供全國人民查閱，共同監督？請問部長是否支持？"],["洪部長申翰：廖委員，就你剛才講的這個案例，就我知道，後來高雄市政府其實已經把這個計畫撤回。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒錯，我知道撤回，上禮拜我也有講撤回，但是整個過程其實是因為當時有被拿出來在立法院檢討，包含楊曜委員等等，變成軒然大波，所以他才趕快撤回，不然這也是一個嚴重的政治事件。這是過去發生的事，但是這件事情的確就像你說的制度上有問題，所以我說制度上是不是……"],["洪部長申翰：所以我們認為在機制上包括事前的審查怎麼強化，甚至事後計畫後的稽核，我們當然現在也在檢討，包括在收支管理辦法裡面……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我就問可不可以公開？可不可以公開？"],["洪部長申翰：我覺得我們是可以做到更多……"],["廖委員偉翔：像立法院這樣，公開審查。"],["洪部長申翰：我認為我們可以做到更多資訊的公開。"],["廖委員偉翔：更多？但是包含我剛剛具體的建議嗎？錄音、錄影的公開？"],["洪部長申翰：那個我們現在還在檢討。"],["廖委員偉翔：像是健保審議一樣。"],["洪部長申翰：廖委員，我們現在還在整體的檢討中，但我自己認為我們是可以再做到更多的公開。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，你講的話都是很不具體的回應，所以我只是說這件事情我也想跟國人同胞公開，這個其實應該是對一個公開、透明機制很基本的要求，我希望部長可以正面回應。"],["洪部長申翰：我覺得可以做到更多的公開。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你可以比這更多，對不對？比我的要求可以更多？"],["洪部長申翰：當然可以比現在更多的公開。"],["廖委員偉翔：還是你只是比現在？你不敢承諾……"],["洪部長申翰：但是我現在的意思是說，因為我們現在……"],["廖委員偉翔：可以公開會議紀錄、錄音、錄影？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我的意思是，因為我們現在真的正在檢討中，所以關於這些細節的作法，其實現在也在討論中。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，部長我就進一步追，為什麼一定要這樣做？我跟你說，同樣的會議紀錄中有寫到如果辦理高雄市或辦理這類的活動經費不足的話，再以併決算的方式來辦理，那我們發現這就是就安基金動用上的常態。雖然作法上你覺得好像預算法有法源依據，但其實這等同於削弱和閹割立法院的監督權，就算我們再怎麼努力監督不管公務預算或是就安基金，其實都是徒勞，因為你們編列是一回事，立法委員的審查又是一回事，但最終你們都說自行超支併決算處理那一套，基本上就是想怎麼用就怎麼用，這個作法美其名是彈性、因應，可是事實上就是讓它不公開、不透明而且讓我們沒有辦法好好審查的一個原因。"],["洪部長申翰：跟廖委員說明，我們現在確實也看到，在就安基金收支管理辦法裡面其實有部分的項目，我們要怎麼樣更嚴格的把關，這部分很具體……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我跟你說，就安基金濫用了所謂的併決算的方式，併決算等於是編列不實，等於是可能導致機關故意低估，以便日後併決算，併決算的過程幾乎缺乏透明度，不利於公眾監督。所以，為什麼我說你們這個審查會議應該要讓錄音、錄影的影像全部公開，而且每一條明細應該要很詳細的交代，否則你讓國人尤其是這些繳納就業安定基金的，對於政府完全沒有信心、沒有信任，他們不知道他們繳這個安定基金是真的有照顧到老百姓、提升勞工的權益嗎？還是只是部長或部內的小金庫，隨意亂花？以上我講到這裡，我剛剛的訴求就是未來在這部分的審理可以把錄音、錄影都公開上網。"],["洪部長申翰：廖委員，第一個我要表達的事情是，我並不覺得有併決算的狀況就一定叫做編列不實，這之間並不是等價，但是如果……"],["廖委員偉翔：弊端，這是弊端，而且還不夠公開透明。"],["洪部長申翰：但是如果有併決算狀況，我確實覺得應該儘量的減少，但我並不覺得只要有超支併決算的狀況，就一定叫做編列不實。"],["廖委員偉翔：我也沒有說全部都是，但是這個就是叫濫用。"],["洪部長申翰：對，所以我說併決算應該減少，尤其是接下來應該在……我自己認為應該在機制……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我把整件事情已經分析給你聽，你不用針對每一件事情回應那些比較空泛的，我覺得就是在透明、公開上面是不是可以像現在立法院一樣，我們開這樣的會議時可以錄影出來直播、紀錄放上網？"],["洪部長申翰：我認為我們應該可以在資訊的揭露跟公開上做得更多。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，那我希望一個月後您對機制的檢討，也可以看到這樣一個決定，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖偉翔委員的發言，謝謝部長。","在此宣告：盧縣一委員發言完畢後休息10分鐘。","下一位請王育敏委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":196,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王育敏","涂權吉","盧縣一","陳瑩","蘇清泉","陳培瑜","林淑芬","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","王正旭","黃國昌","張啓楷","劉建國","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","張雅琳"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-09"],"gazette_id":"1140403","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140403_00002","1140403_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案\n關於勞動部主管預算（公務及基金預算）；三、審查勞動部函送財團法人職業災害預防及重建中心\n114年度預算書案【所列預算案，僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1140403_00001"}}}