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\"text\": \"為什麼這樣講?因為勞動事件法第31條第一項規定那要先組成調解委員會。調解委員會認為調解不利於紛爭的迅速或妥適解決或不能依職權提出適當方案者視為調解不成立或告知或通知當事人。結果這個調解委員會的問題在哪裡?可以宣布調解不成立才可以進行訴訟。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 323.582, \"end\": 324.183, \"score\": 0.763}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 324.183, \"end\": 324.903, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 324.903, \"end\": 325.023, \"score\": 0.683}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 325.023, \"end\": 325.524, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 325.524, \"end\": 325.984, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 325.984, \"end\": 327.345, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 327.345, \"end\": 327.505, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 327.505, \"end\": 328.166, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"項\"}, 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0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:11,295 --> 00:00:16,942\n主席各位大家好是不是來請我們洪部長再請洪部長\n\n2\n00:00:22,975 --> 00:00:48,892\n林委員好部長林委受命我覺得你是其實是很有勇氣的但是我覺得你也應該可以做一個是很有很願意改革的一個部長那我今天要就教於你是因為你早上講了一句話說勞動部你講勞法署但事實上也代表勞動部這個不是一個冰冷的單位是解決問題導向的一個你自己給自己的期待是這樣子你是要問題解決問題導向\n\n3\n00:00:50,933 --> 00:01:05,955\n那我就就教於你的這個這件事情就是關於勞動事件這個勞動事件的這個事件法因為勞動事件法從立法通過到實行到現在將近五年幾乎就快要滿五年了\n\n4\n00:01:07,277 --> 00:01:15,844\n當時在立法的時候雖然是司法單位跟我們一起聯席的這個過程裡面當然我們就想說勞資的關係在勞資正義的時候勞工處於弱勢的這個狀況\n\n5\n00:01:24,372 --> 00:01:26,092\n那因為勞工的談判的籌碼少那證據的掌握都在資方手上尤其勞資爭議的時候然後不利勞工去舉證可是勞工被欺負的時候呢沒有證據然後沒有辦法舉證在這種狀況裡面產生了一種結構上的不對等\n\n6\n00:01:45,977 --> 00:02:02,446\n權力義務關係的不對等爭議協商的地位也不對等也沒有錢請律師大概法服的律師大家都會公認說法服的律師當然比資方聘僱的專業的律師大家都覺得效果沒那麼好啦那對等協商變淪為口號訴訟的這個經濟條件我們剛剛講其實也不一樣\n\n7\n00:02:07,009 --> 00:02:26,563\n所以我們看得出來整個法律的不要從法律的制定過程或是法律訴訟的過程其實有階級上的這個差異非常大的一個落差那所以大家當時我們衛王委員會跟司法法治委員會大家覺得說我們應該要為弱勢的勞工做點什麼在這種狀況裡面就在民事訴訟的特別架構裡面我們就架構了一個特別法就是勞動事件法\n\n8\n00:02:34,409 --> 00:02:53,347\n那主要是調整了徵送的程序的規定在這個裡面當時在立法的時候強調了幾項第一個就是專業審理第二個強化當事人自主局迅速解決爭議對勞工來講時間對雇主時間是金錢但是勞工而言更是金錢因為他比雇主更弱勢\n\n9\n00:02:59,753 --> 00:03:18,240\n那當時還講說減少勞工訴訟這個障礙便利勞工尋求法院的救濟然後要促進審判程序和時效然後要強化分爭統一解決第五個最後是叫即時有效的權力保全其實這個裡面你在講時效時效時效\n\n10\n00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:48,197\n那現在講起來了經過了五年實務界發現了一個事情所以需要你需要你去跟司法單位或者是相關的法治單位好好的談一下說這個法律通過到現在2018年到現在七年實行到現在五年到底是不是也應該要有一個新的檢討法案也要修正那這種狀況裡面我要跟你分享的就是說\n\n11\n00:03:49,218 --> 00:04:15,997\n主要的爭點是在說我們在講強化當事人自主還要迅速解決爭議的時候結果強制要先調解先行在這種調解先行的狀況裡面是說起訴以前先調解啊調解不成的時候再進行訴訟這樣效率比較高可是我們知道重點問題執行起來就不是那樣子當\n\n12\n00:04:19,500 --> 00:04:26,546\n勞動事件法第8條第一項規定法院處理勞動事件應迅速進行依事件性質擬定調解或審理計劃那當事人應該以誠信的方式協力幫助前項程序然後呢\n\n13\n00:04:35,354 --> 00:04:58,608\n16條第一項規定除了有民事訴訟法第406條第一項第二款第四款第五款及性平法第12條以外的條件全部都要先強制調解這個要求強制調解捏那首先你叫大家都要強制調解那你的調解必須要是有效的啊\n\n14\n00:04:59,727 --> 00:05:16,440\n在這種狀況調解率若成功那你要求人家強制調解還有道理可是現在發現法律規定的強制調解司法院進行的強制調解跟你們過去勞工局勞動部門行政調解都一樣不好效率也不好\n\n15\n00:05:23,582 --> 00:05:48,303\n為什麼這樣講?因為勞動事件法第31條第一項規定那要先組成調解委員會。調解委員會認為調解不利於紛爭的迅速或妥適解決或不能依職權提出適當方案者視為調解不成立或告知或通知當事人。結果這個調解委員會的問題在哪裡?可以宣布調解不成立才可以進行訴訟。\n\n16\n00:05:50,030 --> 00:06:12,666\n結果調解不成立是調解委員會才能夠宣告當事人不能宣告這個配套我們不知道為什麼當初的法律是這樣立勞動調解委員會可以宣布人民沒有主張調解無效的這一個主張的權利那沒有調解不成立的話事情就斷掉了就要斷了\n\n17\n00:06:16,218 --> 00:06:28,401\n還有但、但、但那我們當時也講得很好聽啦因為勞動事件法第16條第17、18、22採強自調解第8、第23、第24條要求當事人及法院要協力促進調解然後講得很好聽說調解程序三個月內進行三次然後終結三個月三次終結為原則為原則而已啦\n\n18\n00:06:46,925 --> 00:06:55,369\n然後就是進行調解。調解不成立以後的訴訟才集中審理。然後還以一次期日辯論終結為原則。第一審應於六個月內審結。這兩個條款看起來很棒。\n\n19\n00:07:03,872 --> 00:07:07,055\n一定要調解三個月來一定要調出調改一個結構啊你若是沒結構了去訴訟六個月來一定要審結聽起來很好聽啊但是現實就不是那樣子因為都有例外條款當時我們在立法的時候都允許例外所以現在\n\n20\n00:07:28,024 --> 00:07:55,897\n運作起來都沒有三個月三次然後也沒有六個月內審結然後就存在那裡啊調解委員會本來規定說要一個法官加調解委員現在法官都沒有參加調解委員坐在那裡人家如果叫來調解人家看著調解委員如果不公信你啊就要這樣所以以前啊我們在立法的時候哦大家都這樣拍拍手因為\n\n21\n00:07:57,077 --> 00:07:59,259\n大家覺得說過去的行政調解都沒力行政調解沒有棒子有的棒子只有虛偽說明提供不實資料或是雇主不來協商拒絕調解未依通知出席才有處分而這一些處分事實上也沒有用過啦很少用啦\n\n22\n00:08:19,415 --> 00:08:26,384\n所以大家覺得說你這個行政調解流於形式啦觀念勸導啦單純溝通啦實質影響這個對於這個爭議解決的方的實質影響幾乎是零啦所以大家想說唉喲換成這個勞動事件法來調解欸應該很有效喔\n\n23\n00:08:38,900 --> 00:08:59,478\n欸到時候調解不成法官在調解過程就形成新政了到時候審理會很快了徵典在調解的時候已經整理了然後呢可以把徵典新政直接轉化成訴訟資料的無縫對接的法律設計大家都覺得司法調解會更好更有效率結果有嗎\n\n24\n00:09:00,379 --> 00:09:12,848\n沒有法官都沒有參加法官也不願意參加也沒有時間參加啦大家都知道法官的案量如何我們還幫法官去聘請很多的助理這種狀況裡面5年了勞動部沒有發現這一些問題你利益良善結果勞工反而因為被強制調解沒有辦法即使就進行審理\n\n25\n00:09:28,278 --> 00:09:33,284\n在行政調解就不行了,再來叫換一個調解,換一個調解換官也沒參加,也沒找到調解成功,這樣這樣就還要再拖三個月、拖六個月,這樣才可以開始訴訟。結果就發生這種問題,部長你怎麼看呢?\n\n26\n00:09:49,255 --> 00:10:13,653\n那個先謝謝林委員提醒其實就我所知確實現在關於要調解先行這部分其實是司法院他們其實一直有這個想法那也的確就如剛剛委員說的其實在很多條件的場合反而看到法官都沒有到那這個就變成是原本看起來原本利益良善可是實質上面的運作跟執行上面就跟大家的會有一些落差\n\n27\n00:10:14,654 --> 00:10:42,063\n那這個我自己非常非常願意我們怎麼樣從勞工的角度或者是有經歷過調解過程的角度如果有哪些部分在執行面可以改善的部分我們非常非常願意來這不是執行面改善而已是司法院他們往往提出利益良善的改革包括我們的醫療糾紛的訴訟裡面依舊的鑑定要求自然人醫生要去具名醫生跟他講說不可行他仍然一意孤行然後法律過了以後已經\n\n28\n00:10:42,563 --> 00:10:43,744\n經過8個多月9個月沒有任何一個醫療糾紛有醫生願意去鑑定擺爛所以沒有辦法進行審理程序就是一個很活那個很鮮明的一個案例在那裡同樣的\n\n29\n00:10:57,935 --> 00:11:03,457\n你看起來好像是說為了醫療鑑定的公正性、負責可信度,這樣叫醫生簽名,他會比較公正,其實運作起來不是,同樣的勞動事件處理法,其實利益也良善,其他也很不錯,可是因為你強迫人家強制調解,結果這個東西沒有配套也不可走起來就不會贏,裡面28條第一項還規定當事人不能合意成立\n\n30\n00:11:25,424 --> 00:11:31,750\n當事人不能合意成立調解時勞動調解委員會因依職權斟酌一切狀況並求兩兆利益的平衡與不違反兩兆的主要意思內提出解決事件的適當方案。啊這個法條在寫的都騙人的啊\n\n31\n00:11:44,386 --> 00:12:11,258\n所以委員我剛才說兩個層面第一個部分就是說在執行面怎麼樣改善我們可以跟司法院來討論但如果執行面真的一直沒有辦法達成當初立法的時候五年就是這樣子可以討論了沒有辦法達成當初修法的時候的目標的時候其實我想這些規範該檢討的部分我們當然非常願意來檢討不是規範啦是法律啦但是我的意思是說司法院不可能自己去改善當中的這是正確的改革的方向\n\n32\n00:12:11,798 --> 00:12:33,090\n所以我們應該要把勞動部行政部門我們應該要把勞動在這個過程裡面的經驗我覺得我們要把它給反饋出來那我說執行面能改善的執行面先改善如果執行面改善還不夠能夠達到當時修法的目的的那個地方當然我覺得現在就是告訴你執行面就是沒辦法進行\n\n33\n00:12:35,834 --> 00:12:40,039\n勞動事業處理法第23條第一項規定勞動調解委員會進行調解時該委員會的法官要指揮其程序法官都沒來啊要怎麼指揮程序法官沒有全人在場喔然後都是調解委員在場然後結束調解時\n\n34\n00:12:54,216 --> 00:13:01,919\n法官才會來。然後在這個裡面還有一個我不要講調解了還有一個第49條第一項規定勞工提起確認僱傭關係存在之訴法院認為勞工有勝訴之望且僱主繼續僱用非嫌有重大困難者得一勞工資申請為繼續僱用及給付工資的定暫時狀態處分\n\n35\n00:13:21,808 --> 00:13:27,033\n你若是雇主沒重大困難,你要繼續撐這個勞工,你要繼續給他工資給付喔然後那個現在問題來了勞工被雇主違法解雇,勞工申請定暫時狀態處分勞工是要等待到申請結果還是要先去找工作另謀他就\n\n36\n00:13:48,820 --> 00:13:58,758\n那如果他去另謀他就事情就落大條了。因為法院在認為有沒有定暫時狀態處分的必要的時候\n\n37\n00:14:00,134 --> 00:14:28,711\n高等法院113年勞抗制第19號裁定就是認為若你你要訴訟但你在這當中已經找到新的工作所以勞工已經有工作支付其生活所需維持其工作技能及競爭力而駁回勞工的生情你要定暫時處分狀態要繼續發薪水給勞工若你有工作了人家就說你有工作有錢有收入了\n\n38\n00:14:29,671 --> 00:14:54,764\n我不會叫雇主付錢啊請問如果是勞工你到底是要去找工作然後人家就幫你訂不幫不要求雇主繼續給付工資或者是你在那裡喝西北風不找工作沒有收入然後去請求法院可能會說叫雇主繼續給付工資給你這不是讓勞工陷入困境嗎還要等法院裁決到底是要另謀他就還是坐以待斃\n\n39\n00:15:01,001 --> 00:15:14,084\n跟委員報告當初設計這個條款最主要目的是盡快來做決定所以現在的法院依照勞動事件法法官會很快來確定有沒有嫌污勝訴之妄然後來做這樣你說很快本來是說六個月要審結事實上有例外條款以後都沒有六個月審結勞工會看你六個月盡快嗎?會看你三個月盡快嗎?會看你幾個月盡快嗎?勞工所有的薪水\n\n40\n00:15:26,047 --> 00:15:50,465\n每一份每一個月的薪水都是為了支撐他那一個月的開銷你若有房貸可以一個月無薪水連後捐錢來勞促做勞基那的生活費用等等嗎所以這個條款我現在就執行起來因為高等法院這一個裁定會不會變成說他會變成一個判例啊\n\n41\n00:15:55,421 --> 00:16:12,476\n那個我們可以來主動來跟司法院來討論啦然後剛剛委員在講的部分但可能就這邊還有一些這樣假處分這樣的過程假處分的時間但也會需要一點時間可能暫時狀態的處分如果找到工作有薪水是非常不利於勞工的是\n\n42\n00:16:12,896 --> 00:16:23,804\n所以這整個過程原本的設計都是基於原本可能勞資之間上面權力不平等我們想要把勞工的這個權力往上撐對啊這是你們做起來的狀況是跟以前一樣的狀況執行起來啊所以我們要把這個過程裡面現在從勞方這邊他這個感受到的或實際上經驗的經驗我覺得要我們主動來回饋給司法院來跟他來討論我們是不是有修正\n\n43\n00:16:39,375 --> 00:16:43,057\n公務及基金預算：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會及基金預算：僅\n\n44\n00:17:05,416 --> 00:17:22,998\n對所以我說這部分我們來跟司法院主動來跟司法院把勞工經歷的狀況跟不利的這個狀況來跟司法院來反映跟討論對我剛剛講說司法院很重要高等法院那個判決會被變成是法院一致的一致性的法律間接待機的大調安捏\n\n45\n00:17:26,421 --> 00:17:40,854\n但是勞動部不能夠眼睜睜的看你一個利益良善的法律指引起來,反而對勞工落井下石,我的親婆、親媳婦,妳就叫我強制調解,調解就沒效,沒了,他們五年來都沒一次調解成功的。\n\n46\n00:17:43,656 --> 00:17:57,669\n五年來都沒了你強去調解那我還在這裡本來是馬上可以申禮你叫我再等三個月這個也很荒謬啦然後到底要找工作還是不找工作也是很荒謬都限勞工於更不利的狀況利益良善但執行起來勞工頗受其苦這時候勞動部不能夠眼睜睜的\n\n47\n00:18:06,537 --> 00:18:34,147\n施法院沒插咱勞工啦施法院所以我在說我們會主動的來把勞工現在所遇到的狀況什麼時候會主動找施法院來討論我們這個月就來找他們討論了好好不好這很重要要但據我們的經驗施法院死也不認錯死也不改過因為我們醫療糾紛鑑定9個月好幾百件的審理案件應該擺爛在那裡沒有想要找解決的方法是\n\n48\n00:18:35,296 --> 00:18:53,141\n所以我是要告訴你說宇宙信長跟你講事情會很大條可是我知道跨院的跨院的這一個議題可是真的是很重要我會主動來反映部長要麻煩你這個事情你本人親自關心一下好沒問題親自協調一下沒問題好謝謝謝謝林淑穎委員的發言謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11295\t16942\t主席各位大家好是不是來請我們洪部長再請洪部長\n22975\t48892\t林委員好部長林委受命我覺得你是其實是很有勇氣的但是我覺得你也應該可以做一個是很有很願意改革的一個部長那我今天要就教於你是因為你早上講了一句話說勞動部你講勞法署但事實上也代表勞動部這個不是一個冰冷的單位是解決問題導向的一個你自己給自己的期待是這樣子你是要問題解決問題導向\n50933\t65955\t那我就就教於你的這個這件事情就是關於勞動事件這個勞動事件的這個事件法因為勞動事件法從立法通過到實行到現在將近五年幾乎就快要滿五年了\n67277\t75844\t當時在立法的時候雖然是司法單位跟我們一起聯席的這個過程裡面當然我們就想說勞資的關係在勞資正義的時候勞工處於弱勢的這個狀況\n84372\t86092\t那因為勞工的談判的籌碼少那證據的掌握都在資方手上尤其勞資爭議的時候然後不利勞工去舉證可是勞工被欺負的時候呢沒有證據然後沒有辦法舉證在這種狀況裡面產生了一種結構上的不對等\n105977\t122446\t權力義務關係的不對等爭議協商的地位也不對等也沒有錢請律師大概法服的律師大家都會公認說法服的律師當然比資方聘僱的專業的律師大家都覺得效果沒那麼好啦那對等協商變淪為口號訴訟的這個經濟條件我們剛剛講其實也不一樣\n127009\t146563\t所以我們看得出來整個法律的不要從法律的制定過程或是法律訴訟的過程其實有階級上的這個差異非常大的一個落差那所以大家當時我們衛王委員會跟司法法治委員會大家覺得說我們應該要為弱勢的勞工做點什麼在這種狀況裡面就在民事訴訟的特別架構裡面我們就架構了一個特別法就是勞動事件法\n154409\t173347\t那主要是調整了徵送的程序的規定在這個裡面當時在立法的時候強調了幾項第一個就是專業審理第二個強化當事人自主局迅速解決爭議對勞工來講時間對雇主時間是金錢但是勞工而言更是金錢因為他比雇主更弱勢\n179753\t198240\t那當時還講說減少勞工訴訟這個障礙便利勞工尋求法院的救濟然後要促進審判程序和時效然後要強化分爭統一解決第五個最後是叫即時有效的權力保全其實這個裡面你在講時效時效時效\n199680\t228197\t那現在講起來了經過了五年實務界發現了一個事情所以需要你需要你去跟司法單位或者是相關的法治單位好好的談一下說這個法律通過到現在2018年到現在七年實行到現在五年到底是不是也應該要有一個新的檢討法案也要修正那這種狀況裡面我要跟你分享的就是說\n229218\t255997\t主要的爭點是在說我們在講強化當事人自主還要迅速解決爭議的時候結果強制要先調解先行在這種調解先行的狀況裡面是說起訴以前先調解啊調解不成的時候再進行訴訟這樣效率比較高可是我們知道重點問題執行起來就不是那樣子當\n259500\t266546\t勞動事件法第8條第一項規定法院處理勞動事件應迅速進行依事件性質擬定調解或審理計劃那當事人應該以誠信的方式協力幫助前項程序然後呢\n275354\t298608\t16條第一項規定除了有民事訴訟法第406條第一項第二款第四款第五款及性平法第12條以外的條件全部都要先強制調解這個要求強制調解捏那首先你叫大家都要強制調解那你的調解必須要是有效的啊\n299727\t316440\t在這種狀況調解率若成功那你要求人家強制調解還有道理可是現在發現法律規定的強制調解司法院進行的強制調解跟你們過去勞工局勞動部門行政調解都一樣不好效率也不好\n323582\t348303\t為什麼這樣講?因為勞動事件法第31條第一項規定那要先組成調解委員會。調解委員會認為調解不利於紛爭的迅速或妥適解決或不能依職權提出適當方案者視為調解不成立或告知或通知當事人。結果這個調解委員會的問題在哪裡?可以宣布調解不成立才可以進行訴訟。\n350030\t372666\t結果調解不成立是調解委員會才能夠宣告當事人不能宣告這個配套我們不知道為什麼當初的法律是這樣立勞動調解委員會可以宣布人民沒有主張調解無效的這一個主張的權利那沒有調解不成立的話事情就斷掉了就要斷了\n376218\t388401\t還有但、但、但那我們當時也講得很好聽啦因為勞動事件法第16條第17、18、22採強自調解第8、第23、第24條要求當事人及法院要協力促進調解然後講得很好聽說調解程序三個月內進行三次然後終結三個月三次終結為原則為原則而已啦\n406925\t415369\t然後就是進行調解。調解不成立以後的訴訟才集中審理。然後還以一次期日辯論終結為原則。第一審應於六個月內審結。這兩個條款看起來很棒。\n423872\t427055\t一定要調解三個月來一定要調出調改一個結構啊你若是沒結構了去訴訟六個月來一定要審結聽起來很好聽啊但是現實就不是那樣子因為都有例外條款當時我們在立法的時候都允許例外所以現在\n448024\t475897\t運作起來都沒有三個月三次然後也沒有六個月內審結然後就存在那裡啊調解委員會本來規定說要一個法官加調解委員現在法官都沒有參加調解委員坐在那裡人家如果叫來調解人家看著調解委員如果不公信你啊就要這樣所以以前啊我們在立法的時候哦大家都這樣拍拍手因為\n477077\t479259\t大家覺得說過去的行政調解都沒力行政調解沒有棒子有的棒子只有虛偽說明提供不實資料或是雇主不來協商拒絕調解未依通知出席才有處分而這一些處分事實上也沒有用過啦很少用啦\n499415\t506384\t所以大家覺得說你這個行政調解流於形式啦觀念勸導啦單純溝通啦實質影響這個對於這個爭議解決的方的實質影響幾乎是零啦所以大家想說唉喲換成這個勞動事件法來調解欸應該很有效喔\n518900\t539478\t欸到時候調解不成法官在調解過程就形成新政了到時候審理會很快了徵典在調解的時候已經整理了然後呢可以把徵典新政直接轉化成訴訟資料的無縫對接的法律設計大家都覺得司法調解會更好更有效率結果有嗎\n540379\t552848\t沒有法官都沒有參加法官也不願意參加也沒有時間參加啦大家都知道法官的案量如何我們還幫法官去聘請很多的助理這種狀況裡面5年了勞動部沒有發現這一些問題你利益良善結果勞工反而因為被強制調解沒有辦法即使就進行審理\n568278\t573284\t在行政調解就不行了,再來叫換一個調解,換一個調解換官也沒參加,也沒找到調解成功,這樣這樣就還要再拖三個月、拖六個月,這樣才可以開始訴訟。結果就發生這種問題,部長你怎麼看呢?\n589255\t613653\t那個先謝謝林委員提醒其實就我所知確實現在關於要調解先行這部分其實是司法院他們其實一直有這個想法那也的確就如剛剛委員說的其實在很多條件的場合反而看到法官都沒有到那這個就變成是原本看起來原本利益良善可是實質上面的運作跟執行上面就跟大家的會有一些落差\n614654\t642063\t那這個我自己非常非常願意我們怎麼樣從勞工的角度或者是有經歷過調解過程的角度如果有哪些部分在執行面可以改善的部分我們非常非常願意來這不是執行面改善而已是司法院他們往往提出利益良善的改革包括我們的醫療糾紛的訴訟裡面依舊的鑑定要求自然人醫生要去具名醫生跟他講說不可行他仍然一意孤行然後法律過了以後已經\n642563\t643744\t經過8個多月9個月沒有任何一個醫療糾紛有醫生願意去鑑定擺爛所以沒有辦法進行審理程序就是一個很活那個很鮮明的一個案例在那裡同樣的\n657935\t663457\t你看起來好像是說為了醫療鑑定的公正性、負責可信度,這樣叫醫生簽名,他會比較公正,其實運作起來不是,同樣的勞動事件處理法,其實利益也良善,其他也很不錯,可是因為你強迫人家強制調解,結果這個東西沒有配套也不可走起來就不會贏,裡面28條第一項還規定當事人不能合意成立\n685424\t691750\t當事人不能合意成立調解時勞動調解委員會因依職權斟酌一切狀況並求兩兆利益的平衡與不違反兩兆的主要意思內提出解決事件的適當方案。啊這個法條在寫的都騙人的啊\n704386\t731258\t所以委員我剛才說兩個層面第一個部分就是說在執行面怎麼樣改善我們可以跟司法院來討論但如果執行面真的一直沒有辦法達成當初立法的時候五年就是這樣子可以討論了沒有辦法達成當初修法的時候的目標的時候其實我想這些規範該檢討的部分我們當然非常願意來檢討不是規範啦是法律啦但是我的意思是說司法院不可能自己去改善當中的這是正確的改革的方向\n731798\t753090\t所以我們應該要把勞動部行政部門我們應該要把勞動在這個過程裡面的經驗我覺得我們要把它給反饋出來那我說執行面能改善的執行面先改善如果執行面改善還不夠能夠達到當時修法的目的的那個地方當然我覺得現在就是告訴你執行面就是沒辦法進行\n755834\t760039\t勞動事業處理法第23條第一項規定勞動調解委員會進行調解時該委員會的法官要指揮其程序法官都沒來啊要怎麼指揮程序法官沒有全人在場喔然後都是調解委員在場然後結束調解時\n774216\t781919\t法官才會來。然後在這個裡面還有一個我不要講調解了還有一個第49條第一項規定勞工提起確認僱傭關係存在之訴法院認為勞工有勝訴之望且僱主繼續僱用非嫌有重大困難者得一勞工資申請為繼續僱用及給付工資的定暫時狀態處分\n801808\t807033\t你若是雇主沒重大困難,你要繼續撐這個勞工,你要繼續給他工資給付喔然後那個現在問題來了勞工被雇主違法解雇,勞工申請定暫時狀態處分勞工是要等待到申請結果還是要先去找工作另謀他就\n828820\t838758\t那如果他去另謀他就事情就落大條了。因為法院在認為有沒有定暫時狀態處分的必要的時候\n840134\t868711\t高等法院113年勞抗制第19號裁定就是認為若你你要訴訟但你在這當中已經找到新的工作所以勞工已經有工作支付其生活所需維持其工作技能及競爭力而駁回勞工的生情你要定暫時處分狀態要繼續發薪水給勞工若你有工作了人家就說你有工作有錢有收入了\n869671\t894764\t我不會叫雇主付錢啊請問如果是勞工你到底是要去找工作然後人家就幫你訂不幫不要求雇主繼續給付工資或者是你在那裡喝西北風不找工作沒有收入然後去請求法院可能會說叫雇主繼續給付工資給你這不是讓勞工陷入困境嗎還要等法院裁決到底是要另謀他就還是坐以待斃\n901001\t914084\t跟委員報告當初設計這個條款最主要目的是盡快來做決定所以現在的法院依照勞動事件法法官會很快來確定有沒有嫌污勝訴之妄然後來做這樣 你說很快本來是說六個月要審結事實上有例外條款以後都沒有六個月審結勞工會看你六個月盡快嗎?會看你三個月盡快嗎?會看你幾個月盡快嗎?勞工所有的薪水\n926047\t950465\t每一份每一個月的薪水都是為了支撐他那一個月的開銷你若有房貸可以一個月無薪水連後捐錢來勞促做勞基那的生活費用等等嗎所以這個條款我現在就執行起來因為高等法院這一個裁定會不會變成說他會變成一個判例啊\n955421\t972476\t那個我們可以來主動來跟司法院來討論啦然後剛剛委員在講的部分但可能就這邊還有一些這樣假處分這樣的過程假處分的時間但也會需要一點時間可能暫時狀態的處分如果找到工作有薪水是非常不利於勞工的是\n972896\t983804\t所以這整個過程原本的設計都是基於原本可能勞資之間上面權力不平等我們想要把勞工的這個權力往上撐對啊這是你們做起來的狀況是跟以前一樣的狀況執行起來啊所以我們要把這個過程裡面現在從勞方這邊他這個感受到的或實際上經驗的經驗我覺得要我們主動來回饋給司法院來跟他來討論我們是不是有修正\n999375\t1003057\t公務及基金預算：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會及基金預算：僅\n1025416\t1042998\t對所以我說這部分我們來跟司法院主動來跟司法院把勞工經歷的狀況跟不利的這個狀況來跟司法院來反映跟討論對我剛剛講說司法院很重要高等法院那個判決會被變成是法院一致的一致性的法律間接待機的大調安捏\n1046421\t1060854\t但是勞動部不能夠眼睜睜的看你一個利益良善的法律指引起來,反而對勞工落井下石,我的親婆、親媳婦,妳就叫我強制調解,調解就沒效,沒了,他們五年來都沒一次調解成功的。\n1063656\t1077669\t五年來都沒了你強去調解那我還在這裡本來是馬上可以申禮你叫我再等三個月這個也很荒謬啦然後到底要找工作還是不找工作也是很荒謬都限勞工於更不利的狀況利益良善但執行起來勞工頗受其苦這時候勞動部不能夠眼睜睜的\n1086537\t1114147\t施法院沒插咱勞工啦施法院所以我在說我們會主動的來把勞工現在所遇到的狀況什麼時候會主動找施法院來討論我們這個月就來找他們討論了好好不好這很重要要但據我們的經驗施法院死也不認錯死也不改過因為我們醫療糾紛鑑定9個月好幾百件的審理案件應該擺爛在那裡沒有想要找解決的方法是\n1115296\t1133141\t所以我是要告訴你說宇宙信長跟你講事情會很大條可是我知道跨院的跨院的這一個議題可是真的是很重要我會主動來反映部長要麻煩你這個事情你本人親自關心一下好沒問題親自協調一下沒問題好謝謝謝謝林淑穎委員的發言謝謝部長\n","txt":"主席各位大家好是不是來請我們洪部長再請洪部長\n林委員好部長林委受命我覺得你是其實是很有勇氣的但是我覺得你也應該可以做一個是很有很願意改革的一個部長那我今天要就教於你是因為你早上講了一句話說勞動部你講勞法署但事實上也代表勞動部這個不是一個冰冷的單位是解決問題導向的一個你自己給自己的期待是這樣子你是要問題解決問題導向\n那我就就教於你的這個這件事情就是關於勞動事件這個勞動事件的這個事件法因為勞動事件法從立法通過到實行到現在將近五年幾乎就快要滿五年了\n當時在立法的時候雖然是司法單位跟我們一起聯席的這個過程裡面當然我們就想說勞資的關係在勞資正義的時候勞工處於弱勢的這個狀況\n那因為勞工的談判的籌碼少那證據的掌握都在資方手上尤其勞資爭議的時候然後不利勞工去舉證可是勞工被欺負的時候呢沒有證據然後沒有辦法舉證在這種狀況裡面產生了一種結構上的不對等\n權力義務關係的不對等爭議協商的地位也不對等也沒有錢請律師大概法服的律師大家都會公認說法服的律師當然比資方聘僱的專業的律師大家都覺得效果沒那麼好啦那對等協商變淪為口號訴訟的這個經濟條件我們剛剛講其實也不一樣\n所以我們看得出來整個法律的不要從法律的制定過程或是法律訴訟的過程其實有階級上的這個差異非常大的一個落差那所以大家當時我們衛王委員會跟司法法治委員會大家覺得說我們應該要為弱勢的勞工做點什麼在這種狀況裡面就在民事訴訟的特別架構裡面我們就架構了一個特別法就是勞動事件法\n那主要是調整了徵送的程序的規定在這個裡面當時在立法的時候強調了幾項第一個就是專業審理第二個強化當事人自主局迅速解決爭議對勞工來講時間對雇主時間是金錢但是勞工而言更是金錢因為他比雇主更弱勢\n那當時還講說減少勞工訴訟這個障礙便利勞工尋求法院的救濟然後要促進審判程序和時效然後要強化分爭統一解決第五個最後是叫即時有效的權力保全其實這個裡面你在講時效時效時效\n那現在講起來了經過了五年實務界發現了一個事情所以需要你需要你去跟司法單位或者是相關的法治單位好好的談一下說這個法律通過到現在2018年到現在七年實行到現在五年到底是不是也應該要有一個新的檢討法案也要修正那這種狀況裡面我要跟你分享的就是說\n主要的爭點是在說我們在講強化當事人自主還要迅速解決爭議的時候結果強制要先調解先行在這種調解先行的狀況裡面是說起訴以前先調解啊調解不成的時候再進行訴訟這樣效率比較高可是我們知道重點問題執行起來就不是那樣子當\n勞動事件法第8條第一項規定法院處理勞動事件應迅速進行依事件性質擬定調解或審理計劃那當事人應該以誠信的方式協力幫助前項程序然後呢\n16條第一項規定除了有民事訴訟法第406條第一項第二款第四款第五款及性平法第12條以外的條件全部都要先強制調解這個要求強制調解捏那首先你叫大家都要強制調解那你的調解必須要是有效的啊\n在這種狀況調解率若成功那你要求人家強制調解還有道理可是現在發現法律規定的強制調解司法院進行的強制調解跟你們過去勞工局勞動部門行政調解都一樣不好效率也不好\n為什麼這樣講?因為勞動事件法第31條第一項規定那要先組成調解委員會。調解委員會認為調解不利於紛爭的迅速或妥適解決或不能依職權提出適當方案者視為調解不成立或告知或通知當事人。結果這個調解委員會的問題在哪裡?可以宣布調解不成立才可以進行訴訟。\n結果調解不成立是調解委員會才能夠宣告當事人不能宣告這個配套我們不知道為什麼當初的法律是這樣立勞動調解委員會可以宣布人民沒有主張調解無效的這一個主張的權利那沒有調解不成立的話事情就斷掉了就要斷了\n還有但、但、但那我們當時也講得很好聽啦因為勞動事件法第16條第17、18、22採強自調解第8、第23、第24條要求當事人及法院要協力促進調解然後講得很好聽說調解程序三個月內進行三次然後終結三個月三次終結為原則為原則而已啦\n然後就是進行調解。調解不成立以後的訴訟才集中審理。然後還以一次期日辯論終結為原則。第一審應於六個月內審結。這兩個條款看起來很棒。\n一定要調解三個月來一定要調出調改一個結構啊你若是沒結構了去訴訟六個月來一定要審結聽起來很好聽啊但是現實就不是那樣子因為都有例外條款當時我們在立法的時候都允許例外所以現在\n運作起來都沒有三個月三次然後也沒有六個月內審結然後就存在那裡啊調解委員會本來規定說要一個法官加調解委員現在法官都沒有參加調解委員坐在那裡人家如果叫來調解人家看著調解委員如果不公信你啊就要這樣所以以前啊我們在立法的時候哦大家都這樣拍拍手因為\n大家覺得說過去的行政調解都沒力行政調解沒有棒子有的棒子只有虛偽說明提供不實資料或是雇主不來協商拒絕調解未依通知出席才有處分而這一些處分事實上也沒有用過啦很少用啦\n所以大家覺得說你這個行政調解流於形式啦觀念勸導啦單純溝通啦實質影響這個對於這個爭議解決的方的實質影響幾乎是零啦所以大家想說唉喲換成這個勞動事件法來調解欸應該很有效喔\n欸到時候調解不成法官在調解過程就形成新政了到時候審理會很快了徵典在調解的時候已經整理了然後呢可以把徵典新政直接轉化成訴訟資料的無縫對接的法律設計大家都覺得司法調解會更好更有效率結果有嗎\n沒有法官都沒有參加法官也不願意參加也沒有時間參加啦大家都知道法官的案量如何我們還幫法官去聘請很多的助理這種狀況裡面5年了勞動部沒有發現這一些問題你利益良善結果勞工反而因為被強制調解沒有辦法即使就進行審理\n在行政調解就不行了,再來叫換一個調解,換一個調解換官也沒參加,也沒找到調解成功,這樣這樣就還要再拖三個月、拖六個月,這樣才可以開始訴訟。結果就發生這種問題,部長你怎麼看呢?\n那個先謝謝林委員提醒其實就我所知確實現在關於要調解先行這部分其實是司法院他們其實一直有這個想法那也的確就如剛剛委員說的其實在很多條件的場合反而看到法官都沒有到那這個就變成是原本看起來原本利益良善可是實質上面的運作跟執行上面就跟大家的會有一些落差\n那這個我自己非常非常願意我們怎麼樣從勞工的角度或者是有經歷過調解過程的角度如果有哪些部分在執行面可以改善的部分我們非常非常願意來這不是執行面改善而已是司法院他們往往提出利益良善的改革包括我們的醫療糾紛的訴訟裡面依舊的鑑定要求自然人醫生要去具名醫生跟他講說不可行他仍然一意孤行然後法律過了以後已經\n經過8個多月9個月沒有任何一個醫療糾紛有醫生願意去鑑定擺爛所以沒有辦法進行審理程序就是一個很活那個很鮮明的一個案例在那裡同樣的\n你看起來好像是說為了醫療鑑定的公正性、負責可信度,這樣叫醫生簽名,他會比較公正,其實運作起來不是,同樣的勞動事件處理法,其實利益也良善,其他也很不錯,可是因為你強迫人家強制調解,結果這個東西沒有配套也不可走起來就不會贏,裡面28條第一項還規定當事人不能合意成立\n當事人不能合意成立調解時勞動調解委員會因依職權斟酌一切狀況並求兩兆利益的平衡與不違反兩兆的主要意思內提出解決事件的適當方案。啊這個法條在寫的都騙人的啊\n所以委員我剛才說兩個層面第一個部分就是說在執行面怎麼樣改善我們可以跟司法院來討論但如果執行面真的一直沒有辦法達成當初立法的時候五年就是這樣子可以討論了沒有辦法達成當初修法的時候的目標的時候其實我想這些規範該檢討的部分我們當然非常願意來檢討不是規範啦是法律啦但是我的意思是說司法院不可能自己去改善當中的這是正確的改革的方向\n所以我們應該要把勞動部行政部門我們應該要把勞動在這個過程裡面的經驗我覺得我們要把它給反饋出來那我說執行面能改善的執行面先改善如果執行面改善還不夠能夠達到當時修法的目的的那個地方當然我覺得現在就是告訴你執行面就是沒辦法進行\n勞動事業處理法第23條第一項規定勞動調解委員會進行調解時該委員會的法官要指揮其程序法官都沒來啊要怎麼指揮程序法官沒有全人在場喔然後都是調解委員在場然後結束調解時\n法官才會來。然後在這個裡面還有一個我不要講調解了還有一個第49條第一項規定勞工提起確認僱傭關係存在之訴法院認為勞工有勝訴之望且僱主繼續僱用非嫌有重大困難者得一勞工資申請為繼續僱用及給付工資的定暫時狀態處分\n你若是雇主沒重大困難,你要繼續撐這個勞工,你要繼續給他工資給付喔然後那個現在問題來了勞工被雇主違法解雇,勞工申請定暫時狀態處分勞工是要等待到申請結果還是要先去找工作另謀他就\n那如果他去另謀他就事情就落大條了。因為法院在認為有沒有定暫時狀態處分的必要的時候\n高等法院113年勞抗制第19號裁定就是認為若你你要訴訟但你在這當中已經找到新的工作所以勞工已經有工作支付其生活所需維持其工作技能及競爭力而駁回勞工的生情你要定暫時處分狀態要繼續發薪水給勞工若你有工作了人家就說你有工作有錢有收入了\n我不會叫雇主付錢啊請問如果是勞工你到底是要去找工作然後人家就幫你訂不幫不要求雇主繼續給付工資或者是你在那裡喝西北風不找工作沒有收入然後去請求法院可能會說叫雇主繼續給付工資給你這不是讓勞工陷入困境嗎還要等法院裁決到底是要另謀他就還是坐以待斃\n跟委員報告當初設計這個條款最主要目的是盡快來做決定所以現在的法院依照勞動事件法法官會很快來確定有沒有嫌污勝訴之妄然後來做這樣 你說很快本來是說六個月要審結事實上有例外條款以後都沒有六個月審結勞工會看你六個月盡快嗎?會看你三個月盡快嗎?會看你幾個月盡快嗎?勞工所有的薪水\n每一份每一個月的薪水都是為了支撐他那一個月的開銷你若有房貸可以一個月無薪水連後捐錢來勞促做勞基那的生活費用等等嗎所以這個條款我現在就執行起來因為高等法院這一個裁定會不會變成說他會變成一個判例啊\n那個我們可以來主動來跟司法院來討論啦然後剛剛委員在講的部分但可能就這邊還有一些這樣假處分這樣的過程假處分的時間但也會需要一點時間可能暫時狀態的處分如果找到工作有薪水是非常不利於勞工的是\n所以這整個過程原本的設計都是基於原本可能勞資之間上面權力不平等我們想要把勞工的這個權力往上撐對啊這是你們做起來的狀況是跟以前一樣的狀況執行起來啊所以我們要把這個過程裡面現在從勞方這邊他這個感受到的或實際上經驗的經驗我覺得要我們主動來回饋給司法院來跟他來討論我們是不是有修正\n公務及基金預算：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會及基金預算：僅\n對所以我說這部分我們來跟司法院主動來跟司法院把勞工經歷的狀況跟不利的這個狀況來跟司法院來反映跟討論對我剛剛講說司法院很重要高等法院那個判決會被變成是法院一致的一致性的法律間接待機的大調安捏\n但是勞動部不能夠眼睜睜的看你一個利益良善的法律指引起來,反而對勞工落井下石,我的親婆、親媳婦,妳就叫我強制調解,調解就沒效,沒了,他們五年來都沒一次調解成功的。\n五年來都沒了你強去調解那我還在這裡本來是馬上可以申禮你叫我再等三個月這個也很荒謬啦然後到底要找工作還是不找工作也是很荒謬都限勞工於更不利的狀況利益良善但執行起來勞工頗受其苦這時候勞動部不能夠眼睜睜的\n施法院沒插咱勞工啦施法院所以我在說我們會主動的來把勞工現在所遇到的狀況什麼時候會主動找施法院來討論我們這個月就來找他們討論了好好不好這很重要要但據我們的經驗施法院死也不認錯死也不改過因為我們醫療糾紛鑑定9個月好幾百件的審理案件應該擺爛在那裡沒有想要找解決的方法是\n所以我是要告訴你說宇宙信長跟你講事情會很大條可是我知道跨院的跨院的這一個議題可是真的是很重要我會主動來反映部長要麻煩你這個事情你本人親自關心一下好沒問題親自協調一下沒問題好謝謝謝謝林淑穎委員的發言謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.295 --> 00:16.942\n主席各位大家好是不是來請我們洪部長再請洪部長\n\n00:22.975 --> 00:48.892\n林委員好部長林委受命我覺得你是其實是很有勇氣的但是我覺得你也應該可以做一個是很有很願意改革的一個部長那我今天要就教於你是因為你早上講了一句話說勞動部你講勞法署但事實上也代表勞動部這個不是一個冰冷的單位是解決問題導向的一個你自己給自己的期待是這樣子你是要問題解決問題導向\n\n00:50.933 --> 01:05.955\n那我就就教於你的這個這件事情就是關於勞動事件這個勞動事件的這個事件法因為勞動事件法從立法通過到實行到現在將近五年幾乎就快要滿五年了\n\n01:07.277 --> 01:15.844\n當時在立法的時候雖然是司法單位跟我們一起聯席的這個過程裡面當然我們就想說勞資的關係在勞資正義的時候勞工處於弱勢的這個狀況\n\n01:24.372 --> 01:26.092\n那因為勞工的談判的籌碼少那證據的掌握都在資方手上尤其勞資爭議的時候然後不利勞工去舉證可是勞工被欺負的時候呢沒有證據然後沒有辦法舉證在這種狀況裡面產生了一種結構上的不對等\n\n01:45.977 --> 02:02.446\n權力義務關係的不對等爭議協商的地位也不對等也沒有錢請律師大概法服的律師大家都會公認說法服的律師當然比資方聘僱的專業的律師大家都覺得效果沒那麼好啦那對等協商變淪為口號訴訟的這個經濟條件我們剛剛講其實也不一樣\n\n02:07.009 --> 02:26.563\n所以我們看得出來整個法律的不要從法律的制定過程或是法律訴訟的過程其實有階級上的這個差異非常大的一個落差那所以大家當時我們衛王委員會跟司法法治委員會大家覺得說我們應該要為弱勢的勞工做點什麼在這種狀況裡面就在民事訴訟的特別架構裡面我們就架構了一個特別法就是勞動事件法\n\n02:34.409 --> 02:53.347\n那主要是調整了徵送的程序的規定在這個裡面當時在立法的時候強調了幾項第一個就是專業審理第二個強化當事人自主局迅速解決爭議對勞工來講時間對雇主時間是金錢但是勞工而言更是金錢因為他比雇主更弱勢\n\n02:59.753 --> 03:18.240\n那當時還講說減少勞工訴訟這個障礙便利勞工尋求法院的救濟然後要促進審判程序和時效然後要強化分爭統一解決第五個最後是叫即時有效的權力保全其實這個裡面你在講時效時效時效\n\n03:19.680 --> 03:48.197\n那現在講起來了經過了五年實務界發現了一個事情所以需要你需要你去跟司法單位或者是相關的法治單位好好的談一下說這個法律通過到現在2018年到現在七年實行到現在五年到底是不是也應該要有一個新的檢討法案也要修正那這種狀況裡面我要跟你分享的就是說\n\n03:49.218 --> 04:15.997\n主要的爭點是在說我們在講強化當事人自主還要迅速解決爭議的時候結果強制要先調解先行在這種調解先行的狀況裡面是說起訴以前先調解啊調解不成的時候再進行訴訟這樣效率比較高可是我們知道重點問題執行起來就不是那樣子當\n\n04:19.500 --> 04:26.546\n勞動事件法第8條第一項規定法院處理勞動事件應迅速進行依事件性質擬定調解或審理計劃那當事人應該以誠信的方式協力幫助前項程序然後呢\n\n04:35.354 --> 04:58.608\n16條第一項規定除了有民事訴訟法第406條第一項第二款第四款第五款及性平法第12條以外的條件全部都要先強制調解這個要求強制調解捏那首先你叫大家都要強制調解那你的調解必須要是有效的啊\n\n04:59.727 --> 05:16.440\n在這種狀況調解率若成功那你要求人家強制調解還有道理可是現在發現法律規定的強制調解司法院進行的強制調解跟你們過去勞工局勞動部門行政調解都一樣不好效率也不好\n\n05:23.582 --> 05:48.303\n為什麼這樣講?因為勞動事件法第31條第一項規定那要先組成調解委員會。調解委員會認為調解不利於紛爭的迅速或妥適解決或不能依職權提出適當方案者視為調解不成立或告知或通知當事人。結果這個調解委員會的問題在哪裡?可以宣布調解不成立才可以進行訴訟。\n\n05:50.030 --> 06:12.666\n結果調解不成立是調解委員會才能夠宣告當事人不能宣告這個配套我們不知道為什麼當初的法律是這樣立勞動調解委員會可以宣布人民沒有主張調解無效的這一個主張的權利那沒有調解不成立的話事情就斷掉了就要斷了\n\n06:16.218 --> 06:28.401\n還有但、但、但那我們當時也講得很好聽啦因為勞動事件法第16條第17、18、22採強自調解第8、第23、第24條要求當事人及法院要協力促進調解然後講得很好聽說調解程序三個月內進行三次然後終結三個月三次終結為原則為原則而已啦\n\n06:46.925 --> 06:55.369\n然後就是進行調解。調解不成立以後的訴訟才集中審理。然後還以一次期日辯論終結為原則。第一審應於六個月內審結。這兩個條款看起來很棒。\n\n07:03.872 --> 07:07.055\n一定要調解三個月來一定要調出調改一個結構啊你若是沒結構了去訴訟六個月來一定要審結聽起來很好聽啊但是現實就不是那樣子因為都有例外條款當時我們在立法的時候都允許例外所以現在\n\n07:28.024 --> 07:55.897\n運作起來都沒有三個月三次然後也沒有六個月內審結然後就存在那裡啊調解委員會本來規定說要一個法官加調解委員現在法官都沒有參加調解委員坐在那裡人家如果叫來調解人家看著調解委員如果不公信你啊就要這樣所以以前啊我們在立法的時候哦大家都這樣拍拍手因為\n\n07:57.077 --> 07:59.259\n大家覺得說過去的行政調解都沒力行政調解沒有棒子有的棒子只有虛偽說明提供不實資料或是雇主不來協商拒絕調解未依通知出席才有處分而這一些處分事實上也沒有用過啦很少用啦\n\n08:19.415 --> 08:26.384\n所以大家覺得說你這個行政調解流於形式啦觀念勸導啦單純溝通啦實質影響這個對於這個爭議解決的方的實質影響幾乎是零啦所以大家想說唉喲換成這個勞動事件法來調解欸應該很有效喔\n\n08:38.900 --> 08:59.478\n欸到時候調解不成法官在調解過程就形成新政了到時候審理會很快了徵典在調解的時候已經整理了然後呢可以把徵典新政直接轉化成訴訟資料的無縫對接的法律設計大家都覺得司法調解會更好更有效率結果有嗎\n\n09:00.379 --> 09:12.848\n沒有法官都沒有參加法官也不願意參加也沒有時間參加啦大家都知道法官的案量如何我們還幫法官去聘請很多的助理這種狀況裡面5年了勞動部沒有發現這一些問題你利益良善結果勞工反而因為被強制調解沒有辦法即使就進行審理\n\n09:28.278 --> 09:33.284\n在行政調解就不行了,再來叫換一個調解,換一個調解換官也沒參加,也沒找到調解成功,這樣這樣就還要再拖三個月、拖六個月,這樣才可以開始訴訟。結果就發生這種問題,部長你怎麼看呢?\n\n09:49.255 --> 10:13.653\n那個先謝謝林委員提醒其實就我所知確實現在關於要調解先行這部分其實是司法院他們其實一直有這個想法那也的確就如剛剛委員說的其實在很多條件的場合反而看到法官都沒有到那這個就變成是原本看起來原本利益良善可是實質上面的運作跟執行上面就跟大家的會有一些落差\n\n10:14.654 --> 10:42.063\n那這個我自己非常非常願意我們怎麼樣從勞工的角度或者是有經歷過調解過程的角度如果有哪些部分在執行面可以改善的部分我們非常非常願意來這不是執行面改善而已是司法院他們往往提出利益良善的改革包括我們的醫療糾紛的訴訟裡面依舊的鑑定要求自然人醫生要去具名醫生跟他講說不可行他仍然一意孤行然後法律過了以後已經\n\n10:42.563 --> 10:43.744\n經過8個多月9個月沒有任何一個醫療糾紛有醫生願意去鑑定擺爛所以沒有辦法進行審理程序就是一個很活那個很鮮明的一個案例在那裡同樣的\n\n10:57.935 --> 11:03.457\n你看起來好像是說為了醫療鑑定的公正性、負責可信度,這樣叫醫生簽名,他會比較公正,其實運作起來不是,同樣的勞動事件處理法,其實利益也良善,其他也很不錯,可是因為你強迫人家強制調解,結果這個東西沒有配套也不可走起來就不會贏,裡面28條第一項還規定當事人不能合意成立\n\n11:25.424 --> 11:31.750\n當事人不能合意成立調解時勞動調解委員會因依職權斟酌一切狀況並求兩兆利益的平衡與不違反兩兆的主要意思內提出解決事件的適當方案。啊這個法條在寫的都騙人的啊\n\n11:44.386 --> 12:11.258\n所以委員我剛才說兩個層面第一個部分就是說在執行面怎麼樣改善我們可以跟司法院來討論但如果執行面真的一直沒有辦法達成當初立法的時候五年就是這樣子可以討論了沒有辦法達成當初修法的時候的目標的時候其實我想這些規範該檢討的部分我們當然非常願意來檢討不是規範啦是法律啦但是我的意思是說司法院不可能自己去改善當中的這是正確的改革的方向\n\n12:11.798 --> 12:33.090\n所以我們應該要把勞動部行政部門我們應該要把勞動在這個過程裡面的經驗我覺得我們要把它給反饋出來那我說執行面能改善的執行面先改善如果執行面改善還不夠能夠達到當時修法的目的的那個地方當然我覺得現在就是告訴你執行面就是沒辦法進行\n\n12:35.834 --> 12:40.039\n勞動事業處理法第23條第一項規定勞動調解委員會進行調解時該委員會的法官要指揮其程序法官都沒來啊要怎麼指揮程序法官沒有全人在場喔然後都是調解委員在場然後結束調解時\n\n12:54.216 --> 13:01.919\n法官才會來。然後在這個裡面還有一個我不要講調解了還有一個第49條第一項規定勞工提起確認僱傭關係存在之訴法院認為勞工有勝訴之望且僱主繼續僱用非嫌有重大困難者得一勞工資申請為繼續僱用及給付工資的定暫時狀態處分\n\n13:21.808 --> 13:27.033\n你若是雇主沒重大困難,你要繼續撐這個勞工,你要繼續給他工資給付喔然後那個現在問題來了勞工被雇主違法解雇,勞工申請定暫時狀態處分勞工是要等待到申請結果還是要先去找工作另謀他就\n\n13:48.820 --> 13:58.758\n那如果他去另謀他就事情就落大條了。因為法院在認為有沒有定暫時狀態處分的必要的時候\n\n14:00.134 --> 14:28.711\n高等法院113年勞抗制第19號裁定就是認為若你你要訴訟但你在這當中已經找到新的工作所以勞工已經有工作支付其生活所需維持其工作技能及競爭力而駁回勞工的生情你要定暫時處分狀態要繼續發薪水給勞工若你有工作了人家就說你有工作有錢有收入了\n\n14:29.671 --> 14:54.764\n我不會叫雇主付錢啊請問如果是勞工你到底是要去找工作然後人家就幫你訂不幫不要求雇主繼續給付工資或者是你在那裡喝西北風不找工作沒有收入然後去請求法院可能會說叫雇主繼續給付工資給你這不是讓勞工陷入困境嗎還要等法院裁決到底是要另謀他就還是坐以待斃\n\n15:01.001 --> 15:14.084\n跟委員報告當初設計這個條款最主要目的是盡快來做決定所以現在的法院依照勞動事件法法官會很快來確定有沒有嫌污勝訴之妄然後來做這樣你說很快本來是說六個月要審結事實上有例外條款以後都沒有六個月審結勞工會看你六個月盡快嗎?會看你三個月盡快嗎?會看你幾個月盡快嗎?勞工所有的薪水\n\n15:26.047 --> 15:50.465\n每一份每一個月的薪水都是為了支撐他那一個月的開銷你若有房貸可以一個月無薪水連後捐錢來勞促做勞基那的生活費用等等嗎所以這個條款我現在就執行起來因為高等法院這一個裁定會不會變成說他會變成一個判例啊\n\n15:55.421 --> 16:12.476\n那個我們可以來主動來跟司法院來討論啦然後剛剛委員在講的部分但可能就這邊還有一些這樣假處分這樣的過程假處分的時間但也會需要一點時間可能暫時狀態的處分如果找到工作有薪水是非常不利於勞工的是\n\n16:12.896 --> 16:23.804\n所以這整個過程原本的設計都是基於原本可能勞資之間上面權力不平等我們想要把勞工的這個權力往上撐對啊這是你們做起來的狀況是跟以前一樣的狀況執行起來啊所以我們要把這個過程裡面現在從勞方這邊他這個感受到的或實際上經驗的經驗我覺得要我們主動來回饋給司法院來跟他來討論我們是不是有修正\n\n16:39.375 --> 16:43.057\n公務及基金預算：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會及基金預算：僅\n\n17:05.416 --> 17:22.998\n對所以我說這部分我們來跟司法院主動來跟司法院把勞工經歷的狀況跟不利的這個狀況來跟司法院來反映跟討論對我剛剛講說司法院很重要高等法院那個判決會被變成是法院一致的一致性的法律間接待機的大調安捏\n\n17:26.421 --> 17:40.854\n但是勞動部不能夠眼睜睜的看你一個利益良善的法律指引起來,反而對勞工落井下石,我的親婆、親媳婦,妳就叫我強制調解,調解就沒效,沒了,他們五年來都沒一次調解成功的。\n\n17:43.656 --> 17:57.669\n五年來都沒了你強去調解那我還在這裡本來是馬上可以申禮你叫我再等三個月這個也很荒謬啦然後到底要找工作還是不找工作也是很荒謬都限勞工於更不利的狀況利益良善但執行起來勞工頗受其苦這時候勞動部不能夠眼睜睜的\n\n18:06.537 --> 18:34.147\n施法院沒插咱勞工啦施法院所以我在說我們會主動的來把勞工現在所遇到的狀況什麼時候會主動找施法院來討論我們這個月就來找他們討論了好好不好這很重要要但據我們的經驗施法院死也不認錯死也不改過因為我們醫療糾紛鑑定9個月好幾百件的審理案件應該擺爛在那裡沒有想要找解決的方法是\n\n18:35.296 --> 18:53.141\n所以我是要告訴你說宇宙信長跟你講事情會很大條可是我知道跨院的跨院的這一個議題可是真的是很重要我會主動來反映部長要麻煩你這個事情你本人親自關心一下好沒問題親自協調一下沒問題好謝謝謝謝林淑穎委員的發言謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.295,"end":16.942,"text":"主席各位大家好是不是來請我們洪部長再請洪部長"},{"start":22.975,"end":48.892,"text":"林委員好部長林委受命我覺得你是其實是很有勇氣的但是我覺得你也應該可以做一個是很有很願意改革的一個部長那我今天要就教於你是因為你早上講了一句話說勞動部你講勞法署但事實上也代表勞動部這個不是一個冰冷的單位是解決問題導向的一個你自己給自己的期待是這樣子你是要問題解決問題導向"},{"start":50.933,"end":65.955,"text":"那我就就教於你的這個這件事情就是關於勞動事件這個勞動事件的這個事件法因為勞動事件法從立法通過到實行到現在將近五年幾乎就快要滿五年了"},{"start":67.277,"end":75.844,"text":"當時在立法的時候雖然是司法單位跟我們一起聯席的這個過程裡面當然我們就想說勞資的關係在勞資正義的時候勞工處於弱勢的這個狀況"},{"start":84.372,"end":86.092,"text":"那因為勞工的談判的籌碼少那證據的掌握都在資方手上尤其勞資爭議的時候然後不利勞工去舉證可是勞工被欺負的時候呢沒有證據然後沒有辦法舉證在這種狀況裡面產生了一種結構上的不對等"},{"start":105.977,"end":122.446,"text":"權力義務關係的不對等爭議協商的地位也不對等也沒有錢請律師大概法服的律師大家都會公認說法服的律師當然比資方聘僱的專業的律師大家都覺得效果沒那麼好啦那對等協商變淪為口號訴訟的這個經濟條件我們剛剛講其實也不一樣"},{"start":127.009,"end":146.563,"text":"所以我們看得出來整個法律的不要從法律的制定過程或是法律訴訟的過程其實有階級上的這個差異非常大的一個落差那所以大家當時我們衛王委員會跟司法法治委員會大家覺得說我們應該要為弱勢的勞工做點什麼在這種狀況裡面就在民事訴訟的特別架構裡面我們就架構了一個特別法就是勞動事件法"},{"start":154.409,"end":173.347,"text":"那主要是調整了徵送的程序的規定在這個裡面當時在立法的時候強調了幾項第一個就是專業審理第二個強化當事人自主局迅速解決爭議對勞工來講時間對雇主時間是金錢但是勞工而言更是金錢因為他比雇主更弱勢"},{"start":179.753,"end":198.24,"text":"那當時還講說減少勞工訴訟這個障礙便利勞工尋求法院的救濟然後要促進審判程序和時效然後要強化分爭統一解決第五個最後是叫即時有效的權力保全其實這個裡面你在講時效時效時效"},{"start":199.68,"end":228.197,"text":"那現在講起來了經過了五年實務界發現了一個事情所以需要你需要你去跟司法單位或者是相關的法治單位好好的談一下說這個法律通過到現在2018年到現在七年實行到現在五年到底是不是也應該要有一個新的檢討法案也要修正那這種狀況裡面我要跟你分享的就是說"},{"start":229.218,"end":255.997,"text":"主要的爭點是在說我們在講強化當事人自主還要迅速解決爭議的時候結果強制要先調解先行在這種調解先行的狀況裡面是說起訴以前先調解啊調解不成的時候再進行訴訟這樣效率比較高可是我們知道重點問題執行起來就不是那樣子當"},{"start":259.5,"end":266.546,"text":"勞動事件法第8條第一項規定法院處理勞動事件應迅速進行依事件性質擬定調解或審理計劃那當事人應該以誠信的方式協力幫助前項程序然後呢"},{"start":275.354,"end":298.608,"text":"16條第一項規定除了有民事訴訟法第406條第一項第二款第四款第五款及性平法第12條以外的條件全部都要先強制調解這個要求強制調解捏那首先你叫大家都要強制調解那你的調解必須要是有效的啊"},{"start":299.727,"end":316.44,"text":"在這種狀況調解率若成功那你要求人家強制調解還有道理可是現在發現法律規定的強制調解司法院進行的強制調解跟你們過去勞工局勞動部門行政調解都一樣不好效率也不好"},{"start":323.582,"end":348.303,"text":"為什麼這樣講?因為勞動事件法第31條第一項規定那要先組成調解委員會。調解委員會認為調解不利於紛爭的迅速或妥適解決或不能依職權提出適當方案者視為調解不成立或告知或通知當事人。結果這個調解委員會的問題在哪裡?可以宣布調解不成立才可以進行訴訟。"},{"start":350.03,"end":372.666,"text":"結果調解不成立是調解委員會才能夠宣告當事人不能宣告這個配套我們不知道為什麼當初的法律是這樣立勞動調解委員會可以宣布人民沒有主張調解無效的這一個主張的權利那沒有調解不成立的話事情就斷掉了就要斷了"},{"start":376.218,"end":388.401,"text":"還有但、但、但那我們當時也講得很好聽啦因為勞動事件法第16條第17、18、22採強自調解第8、第23、第24條要求當事人及法院要協力促進調解然後講得很好聽說調解程序三個月內進行三次然後終結三個月三次終結為原則為原則而已啦"},{"start":406.925,"end":415.369,"text":"然後就是進行調解。調解不成立以後的訴訟才集中審理。然後還以一次期日辯論終結為原則。第一審應於六個月內審結。這兩個條款看起來很棒。"},{"start":423.872,"end":427.055,"text":"一定要調解三個月來一定要調出調改一個結構啊你若是沒結構了去訴訟六個月來一定要審結聽起來很好聽啊但是現實就不是那樣子因為都有例外條款當時我們在立法的時候都允許例外所以現在"},{"start":448.024,"end":475.897,"text":"運作起來都沒有三個月三次然後也沒有六個月內審結然後就存在那裡啊調解委員會本來規定說要一個法官加調解委員現在法官都沒有參加調解委員坐在那裡人家如果叫來調解人家看著調解委員如果不公信你啊就要這樣所以以前啊我們在立法的時候哦大家都這樣拍拍手因為"},{"start":477.077,"end":479.259,"text":"大家覺得說過去的行政調解都沒力行政調解沒有棒子有的棒子只有虛偽說明提供不實資料或是雇主不來協商拒絕調解未依通知出席才有處分而這一些處分事實上也沒有用過啦很少用啦"},{"start":499.415,"end":506.384,"text":"所以大家覺得說你這個行政調解流於形式啦觀念勸導啦單純溝通啦實質影響這個對於這個爭議解決的方的實質影響幾乎是零啦所以大家想說唉喲換成這個勞動事件法來調解欸應該很有效喔"},{"start":518.9,"end":539.478,"text":"欸到時候調解不成法官在調解過程就形成新政了到時候審理會很快了徵典在調解的時候已經整理了然後呢可以把徵典新政直接轉化成訴訟資料的無縫對接的法律設計大家都覺得司法調解會更好更有效率結果有嗎"},{"start":540.379,"end":552.848,"text":"沒有法官都沒有參加法官也不願意參加也沒有時間參加啦大家都知道法官的案量如何我們還幫法官去聘請很多的助理這種狀況裡面5年了勞動部沒有發現這一些問題你利益良善結果勞工反而因為被強制調解沒有辦法即使就進行審理"},{"start":568.278,"end":573.284,"text":"在行政調解就不行了,再來叫換一個調解,換一個調解換官也沒參加,也沒找到調解成功,這樣這樣就還要再拖三個月、拖六個月,這樣才可以開始訴訟。結果就發生這種問題,部長你怎麼看呢?"},{"start":589.255,"end":613.653,"text":"那個先謝謝林委員提醒其實就我所知確實現在關於要調解先行這部分其實是司法院他們其實一直有這個想法那也的確就如剛剛委員說的其實在很多條件的場合反而看到法官都沒有到那這個就變成是原本看起來原本利益良善可是實質上面的運作跟執行上面就跟大家的會有一些落差"},{"start":614.654,"end":642.063,"text":"那這個我自己非常非常願意我們怎麼樣從勞工的角度或者是有經歷過調解過程的角度如果有哪些部分在執行面可以改善的部分我們非常非常願意來這不是執行面改善而已是司法院他們往往提出利益良善的改革包括我們的醫療糾紛的訴訟裡面依舊的鑑定要求自然人醫生要去具名醫生跟他講說不可行他仍然一意孤行然後法律過了以後已經"},{"start":642.563,"end":643.744,"text":"經過8個多月9個月沒有任何一個醫療糾紛有醫生願意去鑑定擺爛所以沒有辦法進行審理程序就是一個很活那個很鮮明的一個案例在那裡同樣的"},{"start":657.935,"end":663.457,"text":"你看起來好像是說為了醫療鑑定的公正性、負責可信度,這樣叫醫生簽名,他會比較公正,其實運作起來不是,同樣的勞動事件處理法,其實利益也良善,其他也很不錯,可是因為你強迫人家強制調解,結果這個東西沒有配套也不可走起來就不會贏,裡面28條第一項還規定當事人不能合意成立"},{"start":685.424,"end":691.75,"text":"當事人不能合意成立調解時勞動調解委員會因依職權斟酌一切狀況並求兩兆利益的平衡與不違反兩兆的主要意思內提出解決事件的適當方案。啊這個法條在寫的都騙人的啊"},{"start":704.386,"end":731.258,"text":"所以委員我剛才說兩個層面第一個部分就是說在執行面怎麼樣改善我們可以跟司法院來討論但如果執行面真的一直沒有辦法達成當初立法的時候五年就是這樣子可以討論了沒有辦法達成當初修法的時候的目標的時候其實我想這些規範該檢討的部分我們當然非常願意來檢討不是規範啦是法律啦但是我的意思是說司法院不可能自己去改善當中的這是正確的改革的方向"},{"start":731.798,"end":753.09,"text":"所以我們應該要把勞動部行政部門我們應該要把勞動在這個過程裡面的經驗我覺得我們要把它給反饋出來那我說執行面能改善的執行面先改善如果執行面改善還不夠能夠達到當時修法的目的的那個地方當然我覺得現在就是告訴你執行面就是沒辦法進行"},{"start":755.834,"end":760.039,"text":"勞動事業處理法第23條第一項規定勞動調解委員會進行調解時該委員會的法官要指揮其程序法官都沒來啊要怎麼指揮程序法官沒有全人在場喔然後都是調解委員在場然後結束調解時"},{"start":774.216,"end":781.919,"text":"法官才會來。然後在這個裡面還有一個我不要講調解了還有一個第49條第一項規定勞工提起確認僱傭關係存在之訴法院認為勞工有勝訴之望且僱主繼續僱用非嫌有重大困難者得一勞工資申請為繼續僱用及給付工資的定暫時狀態處分"},{"start":801.808,"end":807.033,"text":"你若是雇主沒重大困難,你要繼續撐這個勞工,你要繼續給他工資給付喔然後那個現在問題來了勞工被雇主違法解雇,勞工申請定暫時狀態處分勞工是要等待到申請結果還是要先去找工作另謀他就"},{"start":828.82,"end":838.758,"text":"那如果他去另謀他就事情就落大條了。因為法院在認為有沒有定暫時狀態處分的必要的時候"},{"start":840.134,"end":868.711,"text":"高等法院113年勞抗制第19號裁定就是認為若你你要訴訟但你在這當中已經找到新的工作所以勞工已經有工作支付其生活所需維持其工作技能及競爭力而駁回勞工的生情你要定暫時處分狀態要繼續發薪水給勞工若你有工作了人家就說你有工作有錢有收入了"},{"start":869.671,"end":894.764,"text":"我不會叫雇主付錢啊請問如果是勞工你到底是要去找工作然後人家就幫你訂不幫不要求雇主繼續給付工資或者是你在那裡喝西北風不找工作沒有收入然後去請求法院可能會說叫雇主繼續給付工資給你這不是讓勞工陷入困境嗎還要等法院裁決到底是要另謀他就還是坐以待斃"},{"start":901.001,"end":914.084,"text":"跟委員報告當初設計這個條款最主要目的是盡快來做決定所以現在的法院依照勞動事件法法官會很快來確定有沒有嫌污勝訴之妄然後來做這樣 你說很快本來是說六個月要審結事實上有例外條款以後都沒有六個月審結勞工會看你六個月盡快嗎?會看你三個月盡快嗎?會看你幾個月盡快嗎?勞工所有的薪水"},{"start":926.047,"end":950.465,"text":"每一份每一個月的薪水都是為了支撐他那一個月的開銷你若有房貸可以一個月無薪水連後捐錢來勞促做勞基那的生活費用等等嗎所以這個條款我現在就執行起來因為高等法院這一個裁定會不會變成說他會變成一個判例啊"},{"start":955.421,"end":972.476,"text":"那個我們可以來主動來跟司法院來討論啦然後剛剛委員在講的部分但可能就這邊還有一些這樣假處分這樣的過程假處分的時間但也會需要一點時間可能暫時狀態的處分如果找到工作有薪水是非常不利於勞工的是"},{"start":972.896,"end":983.804,"text":"所以這整個過程原本的設計都是基於原本可能勞資之間上面權力不平等我們想要把勞工的這個權力往上撐對啊這是你們做起來的狀況是跟以前一樣的狀況執行起來啊所以我們要把這個過程裡面現在從勞方這邊他這個感受到的或實際上經驗的經驗我覺得要我們主動來回饋給司法院來跟他來討論我們是不是有修正"},{"start":999.375,"end":1003.057,"text":"公務及基金預算：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會及基金預算：僅"},{"start":1025.416,"end":1042.998,"text":"對所以我說這部分我們來跟司法院主動來跟司法院把勞工經歷的狀況跟不利的這個狀況來跟司法院來反映跟討論對我剛剛講說司法院很重要高等法院那個判決會被變成是法院一致的一致性的法律間接待機的大調安捏"},{"start":1046.421,"end":1060.854,"text":"但是勞動部不能夠眼睜睜的看你一個利益良善的法律指引起來,反而對勞工落井下石,我的親婆、親媳婦,妳就叫我強制調解,調解就沒效,沒了,他們五年來都沒一次調解成功的。"},{"start":1063.656,"end":1077.669,"text":"五年來都沒了你強去調解那我還在這裡本來是馬上可以申禮你叫我再等三個月這個也很荒謬啦然後到底要找工作還是不找工作也是很荒謬都限勞工於更不利的狀況利益良善但執行起來勞工頗受其苦這時候勞動部不能夠眼睜睜的"},{"start":1086.537,"end":1114.147,"text":"施法院沒插咱勞工啦施法院所以我在說我們會主動的來把勞工現在所遇到的狀況什麼時候會主動找施法院來討論我們這個月就來找他們討論了好好不好這很重要要但據我們的經驗施法院死也不認錯死也不改過因為我們醫療糾紛鑑定9個月好幾百件的審理案件應該擺爛在那裡沒有想要找解決的方法是"},{"start":1115.296,"end":1133.141,"text":"所以我是要告訴你說宇宙信長跟你講事情會很大條可是我知道跨院的跨院的這一個議題可是真的是很重要我會主動來反映部長要麻煩你這個事情你本人親自關心一下好沒問題親自協調一下沒問題好謝謝謝謝林淑穎委員的發言謝謝部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":746,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時54分）主席、各位大家好。請洪部長。"],["主席：再請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，臨危受命，我覺得你其實是很有勇氣的，但是我覺得你應該也可以作為一個很願意改革的部長，我今天要就教於你是因為你早上講了一句話，你講勞發署但事實上也代表勞動部，你說這不是一個冰冷的單位，你自己給自己的期待是這樣子，你是要解決問題導向。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["林委員淑芬：我要就教於你的這件事情就是關於勞動事件法，因為勞動事件法從立法通過、施行到現在將近5年，幾乎就快要滿5年了。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["林委員淑芬：當時在立法的時候雖然是司法及法制委員會跟我們一起聯席的，這個過程裡面當然我們就在想，勞資關係在勞資爭議的時候勞工是處於弱勢的這個狀況，因為勞工的談判籌碼少，證據的掌握都在資方手上，尤其勞資爭議的時候不利勞工去舉證，可是勞工被欺負的時候沒有證據、沒有辦法舉證，在這種狀況裡面產生了一種結構上的不對等、權利義務關係的不對等、爭議協商的地位也不對等，也沒有錢請律師，大概大家都會公認法扶的律師比起資方聘僱的專業律師，大家都覺得效果沒那麼好，對等協商便淪為口號，訴訟的經濟條件我們剛剛講到其實也不一樣，所以我們看得出來整個法律的制定過程或是法律訴訟的過程，其實有階級上的差異、是非常大的落差。","所以當時我們衛環委員會跟司法及法制委員會大家覺得應該要為弱勢的勞工做點什麼，在這種狀況裡面，我們就在民事訴訟的特別架構裡面架構了一個特別法，也就是勞動事件法，主要是調整了爭訟程序的規定，這裡面當時在立法的時候強調了幾項，第一個就是專業審理；第二個，強化當事人自主及迅速解決爭議，時間對雇主來講是金錢，但是對勞工而言更是金錢，因為他比雇主更弱勢；當時是要減少勞工訴訟障礙，便利勞工尋求法院的救濟，然後要促進審判程序和時效，要強化紛爭、統一解決，最後第五個是叫做即時有效的權利保全。其實這裡面一直在講時效、時效、時效，現在講起來經過了5年，實務界發現了一件事情，所以需要你去跟司法單位或者是相關的法制單位好好談一下，這個法律從2018年通過到現在已經7年，施行到現在5年，到底是不是也應該要有一個新的檢討，法案也要修正？在這種狀況裡面我要跟你分享的是，主要爭點是我們在講強化當事人自主還有迅速解決爭議的時候，結果強制要調解先行，這種調解先行的狀況是說起訴以前先調解，調解不成的時候再進行訴訟，這樣效率比較高。可是我們知道問題是執行起來就不是那樣子。勞動事件法第八條第一項規定「法院處理勞動事件，應迅速進行，依事件性質，擬定調解或審理計畫……當事人應以誠信方式協力於前項程序之進行」，同法第十六條第一項規定除有民事訴訟法第四百零六條第一項第二款、第四款、第五款所定情形之一及因性別平等工作法第十二條所生爭議以外的勞動事件，全部都要先強制調解，要求強制調解耶！首先你叫大家都要強制調解，那你的調解必須要是有效的啊！調解成功率如果高，你要求人家強制調解還有道理，可是現在發現法律規定的強制調解、司法院進行的強制調解跟你們過去勞工局勞動部門的行政調解都一樣的無效，也沒有效率，為什麼這樣講？因為勞動事件法第三十一條第一項規定要先組成調解委員會，調解委員會認為進行勞動調解不利於紛爭的迅速或妥適解決，或不能依職權提出適當方案者，視為調解不成立，並告知或通知當事人，這個調解委員會的問題在哪裡？它宣布調解不成立，之後才可以進行訴訟，所以調解不成立是調解委員會才能夠宣告，當事人不能宣告，這個配套我們不知道為什麼當初的法律是這樣立，勞動調解委員會可以宣布，人民沒有主張調解無效的權利，那沒有宣告調解不成立的話，事情就大條啦！大家就要在那裡等著，等！等！等！我們當時也講得很好聽啦！因為勞動事件法第十六條、第十七條、第十八條、第二十二條採強制調解，第八條、第二十三條、第二十四條要求當事人及法院要協力促進調解，然後講得很好聽，說調解程序以三個月內進行3次終結為原則，「為原則」而已啦！然後調解不成立以後的訴訟採集中審理，然後還以「一次期日辯論終結為原則」、「第一審並應於六個月內審結」，這兩個條款看起來很讚耶！一定要調解啦！三個月內一定要調解出一個結果啦！如果調解沒有結果之後去訴訟，六個月內一定要審結啦！聽起來很好聽，但是現實就不是那樣子，因為都有例外條款。當時我們在立法的時候都允許例外，所以現在運作起來都沒有三個月三次，也沒有六個月內審結，然後就存在那裡，調解委員會成員本來規定要有一位法官加調解委員，現在法官都沒有參加，調解委員坐在那裡然後叫人家來調解，人家只看見調解委員，也不具公信力，就在那裡說來說去這樣。所以以前我們在立法的時候，大家就這樣拍拍手，因為大家覺得過去的行政調解都沒有力，行政調解沒有棒子，所謂的棒子只是在有虛偽說明、提供不實資料或是雇主不來協商、拒絕調解、未依通知出席時才有處分，而這一些處分事實上也沒有用過啦！很少用啦！所以大家覺得你這個行政調解流於形式，只是觀念勸導、單純溝通，對於爭議解決方面的實質影響幾乎是零啦！所以大家想說換成這個勞動事件法來調解應該很有效喔，到時候調解不成，法官在調解過程就形成心證了，到時候審理會很快，爭點在調解的時候已經整理了，可以把爭點心證直接轉化成訴訟資料無縫對接，這樣的法律設計，讓大家都覺得司法調解會更好、更有效率，結果有嗎？沒有！法官都沒有參加，法官也不願意參加，也沒有時間參加啦！大家都知道法官的案量如海，我們還幫法官聘請很多的助理，這樣的狀況已經5年了，勞動部沒有發現這些問題，你們是立意良善，結果勞工反而因為被強制調解，沒有辦法即時進行審理，連行政調解都行不通了又換一個調解，換了一個調解可是法官也沒有參加，也沒有能力調解成功，結果就變成還要再拖上三個月、拖上六個月才可以開始訴訟，就發生這種問題啊！部長，你怎麼看呢？"],["洪部長申翰：先謝謝林委員的提醒，其實就我所知，確實現在要調解先行這部分其實是司法院他們一直有這個想法，那也的確如剛剛委員所說，其實在很多調解場合反而都沒看到法官到場，這就變成原本看起來立意良善可是實際運作跟執行上跟大家的期待會有些落差，對此，我自己非常非常願意我們從勞工的角度或者是有經歷過調解過程的角度去思考，如果有哪些是在執行面可以改善的部分，我們非常非常願意來與司法院……"],["林委員淑芬：現在不是執行面的改善而已，是司法院他們往往提出立意良善的改革，包括我們的醫療糾紛訴訟裡，醫糾的鑑定要求自然人醫生要去具名，醫生跟他們說不可行，他們仍然一意孤行，然後法律已經通過了八個多月、九個月，沒有任何一個醫療糾紛有醫生願意去鑑定，擺爛！所以沒有辦法進行審理程序，這就是一個很鮮明的案例，看起來好像是為了醫療鑑定的公正性、負責性、可信度，有醫生簽名會比較公正，但實際運作起來卻不是這樣。同樣的，勞動事件處理法其實也是立意良善，其他也很不錯，可是因為你強迫人家強制調解，結果這個東西沒有配套，執行起來根本行不通，該法第二十八條第一項還規定「當事人不能合意成立調解時，勞動調解委員會應依職權斟酌一切情形，並求兩造利益之平衡，於不違反兩造之主要意思範圍內，提出解決事件之適當方案」，這個法條寫的都是騙人的啊！"],["洪部長申翰：委員，所以我剛剛說有兩個層面，第一個部分就是在執行面怎麼樣改善，我們可以跟司法院來討論，但如果執行面真的一直沒有辦法達成當初立法時候……"],["林委員淑芬：5年了！5年來就是這樣子……可以討論的。"],["洪部長申翰：沒有辦法達成當初修法的目標時，其實我想這些規範該檢討的部分我們當然非常願意來檢討。"],["林委員淑芬：不是規範，是法律啊！"],["洪部長申翰：我的意思是這是法律的規範。"],["林委員淑芬：司法院不可能自己去改啦！當初他們就說這是正確的改革方向，所以現在勞動部、行政部門要去討論啊！"],["洪部長申翰：所以我覺得我們應該要把勞工在這個過程裡面的經驗給反饋出來，我是說執行面能改善的先改善，如果執行面改善還不能達到當時修法的目的的程度，當然我覺得法規的部分也應該檢討。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在就是告訴你執行面就是沒辦法進行，勞動事件法第二十三條第一項規定勞動調解委員會進行調解時，該委員會的法官要指揮其程序，法官都沒來要怎麼指揮程序？法官沒有全程在場，都是調解委員在場，結束調解時法官才會來。然後在這個裡面還有一個規定，同法第四十九條第一項規定「勞工提起確認僱傭關係存在之訴，法院認勞工有勝訴之望，且雇主繼續僱用非顯有重大困難者，得依勞工之聲請，為繼續僱用及給付工資之定暫時狀態處分」，你看這條法律看起來對勞工是不是很好，如果雇主沒有重大困難，就要繼續請這個勞工，要繼續給付他工資喔！現在問題來了，勞工被雇主違法解僱，勞工聲請定暫時狀態處分了，這段時間勞工是要等待到有聲請結果還是要先去找工作，另謀他就？如果他另謀他就，事情就大條了，因為法院在認為有沒有定暫時狀態處分必要的時候，高等法院113年勞抗字第19號裁定就認為若你要訴訟，但你在這當中已經找到新的工作，所以勞工已經有工作支付其生活所需，維持其工作技能及競爭力，故駁回勞工的聲請。你要定暫時處分狀態，要繼續發薪水給勞工，如果你有工作了，人家就說你有工作、有錢、有收入了，我不會叫雇主付錢啦！請問如果你是勞工，到底是要去找工作，然後人家就幫你定不要求雇主繼續給付工資？或者是你在那裡喝西北風，不找工作，沒有收入，然後去請求法院可能會叫雇主繼續給付工資給你？這不是讓勞工陷入困境嗎？還要等法院裁決，到底是要另謀他就還是坐以待斃？"],["王司長厚偉：跟委員報告，當初設計這個條款最主要目的是儘快來做決定，所以現在的法院依照勞動事件法，法官會很快的確定有沒有顯無勝訴之望，然後來做這樣的決定。"],["林委員淑芬：你說很快？本來是說六個月要審結，事實上有例外條款以後都沒有六個月審結的，勞工能夠受得住你六個月的儘快嗎？受得住你三個月的儘快嗎？受得住你一個月的儘快嗎？勞工每個月的薪水都是為了支撐他那一個月的開銷，你如果有房貸，可以一個月沒薪水然後去借錢來繳房租、繳孩子的生活費用等等嗎？所以我的意思是這個條款現在執行起來，高等法院的這個裁定會不會變成一個判例？"],["洪部長申翰：我們可以主動來跟司法院討論，然後剛剛委員在講的部分，當然可能就這部分還有一些像假處分這樣的過程，假處分當然也會需要一點時間，可能不一定會這麼……"],["林委員淑芬：定暫時狀態的處分，如果找到工作有薪水是非常不利於勞工的。"],["洪部長申翰：這整個過程原本的設計都是基於勞資之間可能的權利不平等，我們想要把勞工的權利往上撐，這是我們的用意。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！可是你們執行起來的狀況是跟以前一樣的糟糕啊！"],["洪部長申翰：所以我們要把這個過程裡面，勞方這邊感受到的或實際上的經驗主動回饋給司法院，來跟他們討論我們是不是有修正的空間。"],["林委員淑芬：你現在說得很好聽，可是口惠實不至啊！六個月審結？哪個法官有辦法六個月審結？大家都有例外條款，如果你要讓他有例外，就不要規定六個月審結，這整個都是騙人的！你如果沒辦法六個月審結，那規定這個條文是在讓大家望梅止渴的嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：所以我說這部分我們主動把勞工的經歷跟不利的狀況來跟司法院反映和討論。"],["林委員淑芬：對，我剛剛講司法院很重要，高等法院那個判決會不會變成是法院一致性的法律見解？這樣事情就大條了！對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是，我理解你的擔心。"],["林委員淑芬：可是他們就是這樣，但是勞動部不能夠眼睜睜的看著原本一個立意良善的法律，執行起來反而變成對勞工落井下石，我就想趕快審判、審理，你又叫我強制調解，調解就無效、沒路用嘛！五年來沒有一件調解成功的，五年來都沒有！本來是馬上可以審理的，你要強制調解，叫我再等三個月，這個也都很荒謬啦！然後到底要找工作還是不找工作，也是很荒謬，都陷勞工於更不利的狀況，法律立意良善但執行起來勞工頗受其苦，這時候勞動部不能夠眼睜睜的看著，司法院不會理我們勞工啦！"],["洪部長申翰：所以我說我們會主動的把勞工現在所遇到的狀況……"],["林委員淑芬：什麼時候會主動找司法院討論一下？"],["洪部長申翰：我們這個月就來找他們討論了。"],["林委員淑芬：好，這很重要，根據我們的經驗，司法院死也不認錯！死也不改過！因為我們醫療糾紛鑑定，九個月來好幾百件的審理案件，他們就是擺爛在那裡！沒有想要找解決的方法。所以我語重心長地告訴你，事情會很大條，我知道這是跨院的一個議題，可是真的是很重要。"],["洪部長申翰：我們會主動來反映。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，這個事情要麻煩你本人親自關心一下。"],["洪部長申翰：好，沒問題。"],["林委員淑芬：親自協調一下。"],["洪部長申翰：沒問題。"],["林委員淑芬：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員的發言，謝謝部長。","我們下一位請賴士葆委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":196,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王育敏","涂權吉","盧縣一","陳瑩","蘇清泉","陳培瑜","林淑芬","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","王正旭","黃國昌","張啓楷","劉建國","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","張雅琳"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-09"],"gazette_id":"1140403","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140403_00002","1140403_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案\n關於勞動部主管預算（公務及基金預算）；三、審查勞動部函送財團法人職業災害預防及重建中心\n114年度預算書案【所列預算案，僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1140403_00001"}}}