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\"start\": 723.861, \"end\": 723.981, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"線\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 723.981, \"end\": 724.001, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 724.001, \"end\": 724.021, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 724.021, \"end\": 724.041, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"積\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 724.041, \"end\": 724.061, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"a\", \"start\": 727.205, \"end\": 727.305, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"d\", \"start\": 727.305, \"end\": 727.325, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"e\", \"start\": 727.325, \"end\": 727.545, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"q\", \"start\": 727.545, \"end\": 727.565, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"u\", \"start\": 727.565, \"end\": 727.685, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 727.685, \"end\": 727.705, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,526 --> 00:00:06,791\n像因為登記質詢發言的委員魯明哲委員請魯明哲召委謝謝主席有請陳部長還有鐵道局楊局長請楊局長\n\n2\n00:00:23,413 --> 00:00:48,274\n好,直接切入主題啦,這個我們在機場捷運的耗資問題啊,因為現在面臨要新購10列車,可以6值4普,那這個在購車的過程中,因為大家都知道嘛,列車只是骨頭啊,它的神經系統就是那耗資嘛,那耗資出問題,上次我在總諮詢7月5號,也講了很多了齁,不過,\n\n3\n00:00:49,255 --> 00:01:04,133\n我不知道待會因為上次執行的是前部長李孟彥部長不過我剛剛看到不管是高雄的一個計畫時程台中的一個問之前李部長答應的我相信這個陳部長剛剛我看回答的部分\n\n4\n00:01:05,114 --> 00:01:07,075\n現在是人多的有一班是根本擠不上去\n\n5\n00:01:26,125 --> 00:01:53,577\n我們政人待會就要講話了我們那個劉委員每天來立法院是我們的集結的愛用戶那經常擠不上去待會他會來說那現在這個狀況你不解決不行來我們聽一下找到的這個部分那就就沒問題了就是這個新的車還是裝兩套到了我們中壢再西門子再裝一套兩套系統就這樣的湊合的過河\n\n6\n00:01:55,818 --> 00:02:13,960\n另外第二種方式呢?如果你真的買不到怎麼辦?因為現在都問不到怎麼辦?院長你要不要說一下?如果都買不到你有沒有什麼初步的想法?我的想法是因為他現在雖然使用林縣不到啦但是安全的考量看有沒有特別的需求否則就是現在如果買到舊的未來還是問題\n\n7\n00:02:15,782 --> 00:02:43,794\n况現在要買到舊的可能很麻煩可能就是要全線做一個接行沒有訊號系統啊沒有辦法停啊如果可以更新系統他們一定新設站可以解決這個部分因為我認為是行政院級的一個要統合的一個問題是不是能拜託我們卓院長跟我們的部長還有鐵道局能夠深思這個問題在三個月之內你總是要有一個方向不然都來不及可以嗎?\n\n8\n00:02:44,774 --> 00:02:45,254\n現在一個情況是舊的系統\n\n9\n00:03:04,345 --> 00:03:06,187\n第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算\n\n10\n00:03:27,083 --> 00:03:33,806\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算\n\n11\n00:03:50,661 --> 00:03:52,222\n五、審查114年度五、審查114年度五、審查114年度五、審查114年度\n\n12\n00:04:18,553 --> 00:04:19,674\n五、審查114年度五、審查114年度五、審查114年度五、審查114年度\n\n13\n00:04:46,877 --> 00:04:50,459\nadequatetothecurrentsituationinTaiwan.\n\n14\n00:05:12,312 --> 00:05:12,913\nbicyclist卓院長\n\n15\n00:05:24,110 --> 00:05:29,394\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。adequatetothecurrentsystem.\n\n16\n00:05:50,512 --> 00:06:14,193\n目前地方政府解決進度地方政府比較希望能夠提早重置整個耗資系統要提早重置因為你要買新的車那舊的這個耗資大概也買不到了那所以希望提早重置那在交通部的立場其實我們是支持提早重置這個部分我們是支持的那但是要由桃園市政府他們來提出來請他們提出來那我們會支持是提出來還是拿出來\n\n17\n00:06:15,615 --> 00:06:34,715\n這個動詞很重要提出來是沒問題現在一個狀況是這樣他們因為五個月了因為他們畢竟第一線他們也應該包括捷工局跟大眾捷運公司不斷的找相關的開會甚至有其他廠商大家來討論現在因為現在頭已經洗下去了你知道嗎\n\n18\n00:06:35,296 --> 00:06:35,997\nbicyclap\n\n19\n00:06:58,579 --> 00:07:03,280\n單位預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算\n\n20\n00:07:26,346 --> 00:07:44,452\n是不是又要考慮全部那第二個方案是我們當時在討論說那你要全線到底也謝謝這個鐵道局有去發函給耗資公司喔所以希望你們來協助地方政府你好歹提出一個解決方案提出一個報價這是你們有發文的這我知道但還報價啦\n\n21\n00:07:46,340 --> 00:07:47,841\n三、審查114年度三、審查114年度三、審查114年度三、審查114年度\n\n22\n00:08:06,835 --> 00:08:32,995\n就台幣108億我覺得我們要面對這個問題部長我要拜託你啦拜託你真的你跟院長要幫忙一下鐵道局鐵道局楊局長我跟討論很多次有這個心啦但是大家看這個錢也不是他鐵道局可以去決定的啦那我們現在再重新錄音一次桃園市政府為了要把國門這個整個的甚至北北桃整個的運輸做好然後呢\n\n23\n00:08:34,073 --> 00:08:35,814\n二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度\n\n24\n00:08:56,311 --> 00:08:58,432\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算\n\n25\n00:09:15,021 --> 00:09:17,502\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算\n\n26\n00:09:32,981 --> 00:10:01,504\n好這個我務必要拜託你因為這個是真的是國家機場的大建設現在的因為從幾個行下未來三行下要來那這個部分的客人會真的很多現在擠在那邊其實難看那這個108億對於整個整個的一個補助叫地方出實在是不可能那現在的一個整個的一個集結整包我建議部長整包要去研究一下你沒有第一個資產轉移方案\n\n27\n00:10:02,645 --> 00:10:02,845\n二、審查114年度\n\n28\n00:10:29,702 --> 00:10:31,683\n二、審查114年度二、審查114年度三、審查114年度二、審查114年度三、審查114年度\n\n29\n00:10:51,033 --> 00:11:17,563\n因為你來這邊也跟我說當然你跟捷運公司也說你們建議的方案就是一個整合性整合性的一個對耗資系統整合性的一個發包策略它的簡單的意思就是說假設是西門子或者亞斯通都不管哪一家你不是光做這個喔不是光是集結新車裝這個而已喔那未來我還有機場綠潔延伸線喔我還有龜山的中線喔\n\n30\n00:11:21,585 --> 00:11:48,423\n但是我問採購我問行政院工程會他說可以這樣搞啊你還講說未來還有丘龍華委員那邊的巴德大西亞我們10年以後發包也是你新門子的你敢講我不敢講我說真的如果這種叫做整合是不行的我是拜託局長因為現在的綠色捷運延伸線我特別要提醒當時在政事長時代發包的時候已經把延伸線作為後續擴充\n\n31\n00:11:50,564 --> 00:12:04,061\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。netesle,你跟他講說你不要這個,已經被人家用一次了,後續擴充優先找他一架,所以你再跟他講我要跟你談,我已經是優先一架,這沒有用了,那未來中線456億有多少積電的?\n\n32\n00:12:07,205 --> 00:12:07,705\nadequ.委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2526\t6791\t像因為登記質詢發言的委員魯明哲委員請魯明哲召委謝謝主席有請陳部長還有鐵道局楊局長請楊局長\n23413\t48274\t好,直接切入主題啦,這個我們在機場捷運的耗資問題啊,因為現在面臨要新購10列車,可以6值4普,那這個在購車的過程中,因為大家都知道嘛,列車只是骨頭啊,它的神經系統就是那耗資嘛,那耗資出問題,上次我在總諮詢7月5號,也講了很多了齁,不過,\n49255\t64133\t我不知道待會因為上次執行的是前部長李孟彥部長不過我剛剛看到不管是高雄的一個計畫時程台中的一個問之前李部長答應的我相信這個陳部長剛剛我看回答的部分\n65114\t67075\t現在是人多的 有一班是根本擠不上去\n86125\t113577\t我們政人待會就要講話了我們那個劉委員每天來立法院是我們的集結的愛用戶那經常擠不上去待會他會來說那現在這個狀況你不解決不行來我們聽一下找到的這個部分那就就沒問題了就是這個新的車還是裝兩套到了我們中壢再西門子再裝一套兩套系統就這樣的湊合的過河\n115818\t133960\t另外第二種方式呢?如果你真的買不到怎麼辦?因為現在都問不到怎麼辦?院長你要不要說一下?如果都買不到你有沒有什麼初步的想法?我的想法是因為他現在雖然使用林縣不到啦但是安全的考量看有沒有特別的需求否則就是現在如果買到舊的未來還是問題\n135782\t163794\t况現在要買到舊的可能很麻煩可能就是要全線做一個接行沒有訊號系統啊沒有辦法停啊如果可以更新系統他們一定新設站可以解決這個部分因為我認為是行政院級的一個要統合的一個問題是不是能拜託我們卓院長跟我們的部長還有鐵道局能夠深思這個問題在三個月之內你總是要有一個方向不然都來不及可以嗎?\n164774\t165254\t現在一個情況是舊的系統\n184345\t186187\t第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算\n207083\t213806\t二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算\n230661\t232222\t五、審查114年度五、審查114年度五、審查114年度五、審查114年度\n258553\t259674\t五、審查114年度五、審查114年度五、審查114年度五、審查114年度\n286877\t290459\tadequate to the current situation in Taiwan.\n312312\t312913\tbicyclist 卓院長\n324110\t329394\t二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。adequate to the current system.\n350512\t374193\t目前地方政府解決進度地方政府比較希望能夠提早重置整個耗資系統要提早重置因為你要買新的車那舊的這個耗資大概也買不到了那所以希望提早重置那在交通部的立場其實我們是支持提早重置這個部分我們是支持的那但是要由桃園市政府他們來提出來請他們提出來那我們會支持是提出來還是拿出來\n375615\t394715\t這個動詞很重要提出來是沒問題現在一個狀況是這樣他們因為五個月了因為他們畢竟第一線他們也應該包括捷工局跟大眾捷運公司不斷的找相關的開會甚至有其他廠商大家來討論現在因為現在頭已經洗下去了你知道嗎\n395296\t395997\tbicyclap\n418579\t423280\t單位預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算\n446346\t464452\t是不是又要考慮全部那第二個方案是我們當時在討論說那你要全線到底也謝謝這個鐵道局有去發函給耗資公司喔所以希望你們來協助地方政府你好歹提出一個解決方案提出一個報價這是你們有發文的這我知道但還報價啦\n466340\t467841\t三、審查114年度三、審查114年度三、審查114年度三、審查114年度\n486835\t512995\t就台幣108億我覺得我們要面對這個問題部長我要拜託你啦拜託你真的你跟院長要幫忙一下鐵道局鐵道局楊局長我跟討論很多次有這個心啦但是大家看這個錢也不是他鐵道局可以去決定的啦那我們現在再重新錄音一次桃園市政府為了要把國門這個整個的甚至北北桃整個的運輸做好然後呢\n514073\t515814\t二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度\n536311\t538432\t二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算\n555021\t557502\t二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算\n572981\t601504\t好 這個我務必要拜託你因為這個是真的是國家機場的大建設現在的因為從幾個行下未來三行下要來那這個部分的客人會真的很多現在擠在那邊其實難看那這個108億對於整個整個的一個補助叫地方出實在是不可能那現在的一個整個的一個集結整包我建議部長整包要去研究一下你沒有第一個資產轉移方案\n602645\t602845\t二、審查114年度\n629702\t631683\t二、審查114年度二、審查114年度三、審查114年度二、審查114年度三、審查114年度\n651033\t677563\t因為你來這邊也跟我說當然你跟捷運公司也說你們建議的方案就是一個整合性整合性的一個對耗資系統整合性的一個發包策略它的簡單的意思就是說假設是西門子或者亞斯通都不管哪一家你不是光做這個喔不是光是集結新車裝這個而已喔那未來我還有機場綠潔延伸線喔我還有龜山的中線喔\n681585\t708423\t但是我問採購我問行政院工程會他說可以這樣搞啊你還講說未來還有丘龍華委員那邊的巴德大西亞我們10年以後發包也是你新門子的你敢講我不敢講我說真的如果這種叫做整合是不行的我是拜託局長因為現在的綠色捷運延伸線我特別要提醒當時在政事長時代發包的時候已經把延伸線作為後續擴充\n710564\t724061\t二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。netesle,你跟他講說你不要這個,已經被人家用一次了,後續擴充優先找他一架,所以你再跟他講我要跟你談,我已經是優先一架,這沒有用了,那未來中線456億有多少積電的?\n727205\t727705\tadequ.委員\n","txt":"像因為登記質詢發言的委員魯明哲委員請魯明哲召委謝謝主席有請陳部長還有鐵道局楊局長請楊局長\n好,直接切入主題啦,這個我們在機場捷運的耗資問題啊,因為現在面臨要新購10列車,可以6值4普,那這個在購車的過程中,因為大家都知道嘛,列車只是骨頭啊,它的神經系統就是那耗資嘛,那耗資出問題,上次我在總諮詢7月5號,也講了很多了齁,不過,\n我不知道待會因為上次執行的是前部長李孟彥部長不過我剛剛看到不管是高雄的一個計畫時程台中的一個問之前李部長答應的我相信這個陳部長剛剛我看回答的部分\n現在是人多的 有一班是根本擠不上去\n我們政人待會就要講話了我們那個劉委員每天來立法院是我們的集結的愛用戶那經常擠不上去待會他會來說那現在這個狀況你不解決不行來我們聽一下找到的這個部分那就就沒問題了就是這個新的車還是裝兩套到了我們中壢再西門子再裝一套兩套系統就這樣的湊合的過河\n另外第二種方式呢?如果你真的買不到怎麼辦?因為現在都問不到怎麼辦?院長你要不要說一下?如果都買不到你有沒有什麼初步的想法?我的想法是因為他現在雖然使用林縣不到啦但是安全的考量看有沒有特別的需求否則就是現在如果買到舊的未來還是問題\n况現在要買到舊的可能很麻煩可能就是要全線做一個接行沒有訊號系統啊沒有辦法停啊如果可以更新系統他們一定新設站可以解決這個部分因為我認為是行政院級的一個要統合的一個問題是不是能拜託我們卓院長跟我們的部長還有鐵道局能夠深思這個問題在三個月之內你總是要有一個方向不然都來不及可以嗎?\n現在一個情況是舊的系統\n第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算\n五、審查114年度五、審查114年度五、審查114年度五、審查114年度\n五、審查114年度五、審查114年度五、審查114年度五、審查114年度\nadequate to the current situation in Taiwan.\nbicyclist 卓院長\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。adequate to the current system.\n目前地方政府解決進度地方政府比較希望能夠提早重置整個耗資系統要提早重置因為你要買新的車那舊的這個耗資大概也買不到了那所以希望提早重置那在交通部的立場其實我們是支持提早重置這個部分我們是支持的那但是要由桃園市政府他們來提出來請他們提出來那我們會支持是提出來還是拿出來\n這個動詞很重要提出來是沒問題現在一個狀況是這樣他們因為五個月了因為他們畢竟第一線他們也應該包括捷工局跟大眾捷運公司不斷的找相關的開會甚至有其他廠商大家來討論現在因為現在頭已經洗下去了你知道嗎\nbicyclap\n單位預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算\n是不是又要考慮全部那第二個方案是我們當時在討論說那你要全線到底也謝謝這個鐵道局有去發函給耗資公司喔所以希望你們來協助地方政府你好歹提出一個解決方案提出一個報價這是你們有發文的這我知道但還報價啦\n三、審查114年度三、審查114年度三、審查114年度三、審查114年度\n就台幣108億我覺得我們要面對這個問題部長我要拜託你啦拜託你真的你跟院長要幫忙一下鐵道局鐵道局楊局長我跟討論很多次有這個心啦但是大家看這個錢也不是他鐵道局可以去決定的啦那我們現在再重新錄音一次桃園市政府為了要把國門這個整個的甚至北北桃整個的運輸做好然後呢\n二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算\n好 這個我務必要拜託你因為這個是真的是國家機場的大建設現在的因為從幾個行下未來三行下要來那這個部分的客人會真的很多現在擠在那邊其實難看那這個108億對於整個整個的一個補助叫地方出實在是不可能那現在的一個整個的一個集結整包我建議部長整包要去研究一下你沒有第一個資產轉移方案\n二、審查114年度\n二、審查114年度二、審查114年度三、審查114年度二、審查114年度三、審查114年度\n因為你來這邊也跟我說當然你跟捷運公司也說你們建議的方案就是一個整合性整合性的一個對耗資系統整合性的一個發包策略它的簡單的意思就是說假設是西門子或者亞斯通都不管哪一家你不是光做這個喔不是光是集結新車裝這個而已喔那未來我還有機場綠潔延伸線喔我還有龜山的中線喔\n但是我問採購我問行政院工程會他說可以這樣搞啊你還講說未來還有丘龍華委員那邊的巴德大西亞我們10年以後發包也是你新門子的你敢講我不敢講我說真的如果這種叫做整合是不行的我是拜託局長因為現在的綠色捷運延伸線我特別要提醒當時在政事長時代發包的時候已經把延伸線作為後續擴充\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。netesle,你跟他講說你不要這個,已經被人家用一次了,後續擴充優先找他一架,所以你再跟他講我要跟你談,我已經是優先一架,這沒有用了,那未來中線456億有多少積電的?\nadequ.委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.526 --> 00:06.791\n像因為登記質詢發言的委員魯明哲委員請魯明哲召委謝謝主席有請陳部長還有鐵道局楊局長請楊局長\n\n00:23.413 --> 00:48.274\n好,直接切入主題啦,這個我們在機場捷運的耗資問題啊,因為現在面臨要新購10列車,可以6值4普,那這個在購車的過程中,因為大家都知道嘛,列車只是骨頭啊,它的神經系統就是那耗資嘛,那耗資出問題,上次我在總諮詢7月5號,也講了很多了齁,不過,\n\n00:49.255 --> 01:04.133\n我不知道待會因為上次執行的是前部長李孟彥部長不過我剛剛看到不管是高雄的一個計畫時程台中的一個問之前李部長答應的我相信這個陳部長剛剛我看回答的部分\n\n01:05.114 --> 01:07.075\n現在是人多的有一班是根本擠不上去\n\n01:26.125 --> 01:53.577\n我們政人待會就要講話了我們那個劉委員每天來立法院是我們的集結的愛用戶那經常擠不上去待會他會來說那現在這個狀況你不解決不行來我們聽一下找到的這個部分那就就沒問題了就是這個新的車還是裝兩套到了我們中壢再西門子再裝一套兩套系統就這樣的湊合的過河\n\n01:55.818 --> 02:13.960\n另外第二種方式呢?如果你真的買不到怎麼辦?因為現在都問不到怎麼辦?院長你要不要說一下?如果都買不到你有沒有什麼初步的想法?我的想法是因為他現在雖然使用林縣不到啦但是安全的考量看有沒有特別的需求否則就是現在如果買到舊的未來還是問題\n\n02:15.782 --> 02:43.794\n况現在要買到舊的可能很麻煩可能就是要全線做一個接行沒有訊號系統啊沒有辦法停啊如果可以更新系統他們一定新設站可以解決這個部分因為我認為是行政院級的一個要統合的一個問題是不是能拜託我們卓院長跟我們的部長還有鐵道局能夠深思這個問題在三個月之內你總是要有一個方向不然都來不及可以嗎?\n\n02:44.774 --> 02:45.254\n現在一個情況是舊的系統\n\n03:04.345 --> 03:06.187\n第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算\n\n03:27.083 --> 03:33.806\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算\n\n03:50.661 --> 03:52.222\n五、審查114年度五、審查114年度五、審查114年度五、審查114年度\n\n04:18.553 --> 04:19.674\n五、審查114年度五、審查114年度五、審查114年度五、審查114年度\n\n04:46.877 --> 04:50.459\nadequatetothecurrentsituationinTaiwan.\n\n05:12.312 --> 05:12.913\nbicyclist卓院長\n\n05:24.110 --> 05:29.394\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。adequatetothecurrentsystem.\n\n05:50.512 --> 06:14.193\n目前地方政府解決進度地方政府比較希望能夠提早重置整個耗資系統要提早重置因為你要買新的車那舊的這個耗資大概也買不到了那所以希望提早重置那在交通部的立場其實我們是支持提早重置這個部分我們是支持的那但是要由桃園市政府他們來提出來請他們提出來那我們會支持是提出來還是拿出來\n\n06:15.615 --> 06:34.715\n這個動詞很重要提出來是沒問題現在一個狀況是這樣他們因為五個月了因為他們畢竟第一線他們也應該包括捷工局跟大眾捷運公司不斷的找相關的開會甚至有其他廠商大家來討論現在因為現在頭已經洗下去了你知道嗎\n\n06:35.296 --> 06:35.997\nbicyclap\n\n06:58.579 --> 07:03.280\n單位預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算\n\n07:26.346 --> 07:44.452\n是不是又要考慮全部那第二個方案是我們當時在討論說那你要全線到底也謝謝這個鐵道局有去發函給耗資公司喔所以希望你們來協助地方政府你好歹提出一個解決方案提出一個報價這是你們有發文的這我知道但還報價啦\n\n07:46.340 --> 07:47.841\n三、審查114年度三、審查114年度三、審查114年度三、審查114年度\n\n08:06.835 --> 08:32.995\n就台幣108億我覺得我們要面對這個問題部長我要拜託你啦拜託你真的你跟院長要幫忙一下鐵道局鐵道局楊局長我跟討論很多次有這個心啦但是大家看這個錢也不是他鐵道局可以去決定的啦那我們現在再重新錄音一次桃園市政府為了要把國門這個整個的甚至北北桃整個的運輸做好然後呢\n\n08:34.073 --> 08:35.814\n二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度\n\n08:56.311 --> 08:58.432\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算\n\n09:15.021 --> 09:17.502\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算\n\n09:32.981 --> 10:01.504\n好這個我務必要拜託你因為這個是真的是國家機場的大建設現在的因為從幾個行下未來三行下要來那這個部分的客人會真的很多現在擠在那邊其實難看那這個108億對於整個整個的一個補助叫地方出實在是不可能那現在的一個整個的一個集結整包我建議部長整包要去研究一下你沒有第一個資產轉移方案\n\n10:02.645 --> 10:02.845\n二、審查114年度\n\n10:29.702 --> 10:31.683\n二、審查114年度二、審查114年度三、審查114年度二、審查114年度三、審查114年度\n\n10:51.033 --> 11:17.563\n因為你來這邊也跟我說當然你跟捷運公司也說你們建議的方案就是一個整合性整合性的一個對耗資系統整合性的一個發包策略它的簡單的意思就是說假設是西門子或者亞斯通都不管哪一家你不是光做這個喔不是光是集結新車裝這個而已喔那未來我還有機場綠潔延伸線喔我還有龜山的中線喔\n\n11:21.585 --> 11:48.423\n但是我問採購我問行政院工程會他說可以這樣搞啊你還講說未來還有丘龍華委員那邊的巴德大西亞我們10年以後發包也是你新門子的你敢講我不敢講我說真的如果這種叫做整合是不行的我是拜託局長因為現在的綠色捷運延伸線我特別要提醒當時在政事長時代發包的時候已經把延伸線作為後續擴充\n\n11:50.564 --> 12:04.061\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。netesle,你跟他講說你不要這個,已經被人家用一次了,後續擴充優先找他一架,所以你再跟他講我要跟你談,我已經是優先一架,這沒有用了,那未來中線456億有多少積電的?\n\n12:07.205 --> 12:07.705\nadequ.委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.526,"end":6.791,"text":"像因為登記質詢發言的委員魯明哲委員請魯明哲召委謝謝主席有請陳部長還有鐵道局楊局長請楊局長"},{"start":23.413,"end":48.274,"text":"好,直接切入主題啦,這個我們在機場捷運的耗資問題啊,因為現在面臨要新購10列車,可以6值4普,那這個在購車的過程中,因為大家都知道嘛,列車只是骨頭啊,它的神經系統就是那耗資嘛,那耗資出問題,上次我在總諮詢7月5號,也講了很多了齁,不過,"},{"start":49.255,"end":64.133,"text":"我不知道待會因為上次執行的是前部長李孟彥部長不過我剛剛看到不管是高雄的一個計畫時程台中的一個問之前李部長答應的我相信這個陳部長剛剛我看回答的部分"},{"start":65.114,"end":67.075,"text":"現在是人多的 有一班是根本擠不上去"},{"start":86.125,"end":113.577,"text":"我們政人待會就要講話了我們那個劉委員每天來立法院是我們的集結的愛用戶那經常擠不上去待會他會來說那現在這個狀況你不解決不行來我們聽一下找到的這個部分那就就沒問題了就是這個新的車還是裝兩套到了我們中壢再西門子再裝一套兩套系統就這樣的湊合的過河"},{"start":115.818,"end":133.96,"text":"另外第二種方式呢?如果你真的買不到怎麼辦?因為現在都問不到怎麼辦?院長你要不要說一下?如果都買不到你有沒有什麼初步的想法?我的想法是因為他現在雖然使用林縣不到啦但是安全的考量看有沒有特別的需求否則就是現在如果買到舊的未來還是問題"},{"start":135.782,"end":163.794,"text":"况現在要買到舊的可能很麻煩可能就是要全線做一個接行沒有訊號系統啊沒有辦法停啊如果可以更新系統他們一定新設站可以解決這個部分因為我認為是行政院級的一個要統合的一個問題是不是能拜託我們卓院長跟我們的部長還有鐵道局能夠深思這個問題在三個月之內你總是要有一個方向不然都來不及可以嗎?"},{"start":164.774,"end":165.254,"text":"現在一個情況是舊的系統"},{"start":184.345,"end":186.187,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":207.083,"end":213.806,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":230.661,"end":232.222,"text":"五、審查114年度五、審查114年度五、審查114年度五、審查114年度"},{"start":258.553,"end":259.674,"text":"五、審查114年度五、審查114年度五、審查114年度五、審查114年度"},{"start":286.877,"end":290.459,"text":"adequate to the current situation in Taiwan."},{"start":312.312,"end":312.913,"text":" bicyclist 卓院長"},{"start":324.11,"end":329.394,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。adequate to the current system."},{"start":350.512,"end":374.193,"text":"目前地方政府解決進度地方政府比較希望能夠提早重置整個耗資系統要提早重置因為你要買新的車那舊的這個耗資大概也買不到了那所以希望提早重置那在交通部的立場其實我們是支持提早重置這個部分我們是支持的那但是要由桃園市政府他們來提出來請他們提出來那我們會支持是提出來還是拿出來"},{"start":375.615,"end":394.715,"text":"這個動詞很重要提出來是沒問題現在一個狀況是這樣他們因為五個月了因為他們畢竟第一線他們也應該包括捷工局跟大眾捷運公司不斷的找相關的開會甚至有其他廠商大家來討論現在因為現在頭已經洗下去了你知道嗎"},{"start":395.296,"end":395.997,"text":" bicyclap"},{"start":418.579,"end":423.28,"text":"單位預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":446.346,"end":464.452,"text":"是不是又要考慮全部那第二個方案是我們當時在討論說那你要全線到底也謝謝這個鐵道局有去發函給耗資公司喔所以希望你們來協助地方政府你好歹提出一個解決方案提出一個報價這是你們有發文的這我知道但還報價啦"},{"start":466.34,"end":467.841,"text":"三、審查114年度三、審查114年度三、審查114年度三、審查114年度"},{"start":486.835,"end":512.995,"text":"就台幣108億我覺得我們要面對這個問題部長我要拜託你啦拜託你真的你跟院長要幫忙一下鐵道局鐵道局楊局長我跟討論很多次有這個心啦但是大家看這個錢也不是他鐵道局可以去決定的啦那我們現在再重新錄音一次桃園市政府為了要把國門這個整個的甚至北北桃整個的運輸做好然後呢"},{"start":514.073,"end":515.814,"text":"二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度"},{"start":536.311,"end":538.432,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":555.021,"end":557.502,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":572.981,"end":601.504,"text":"好 這個我務必要拜託你因為這個是真的是國家機場的大建設現在的因為從幾個行下未來三行下要來那這個部分的客人會真的很多現在擠在那邊其實難看那這個108億對於整個整個的一個補助叫地方出實在是不可能那現在的一個整個的一個集結整包我建議部長整包要去研究一下你沒有第一個資產轉移方案"},{"start":602.645,"end":602.845,"text":"二、審查114年度"},{"start":629.702,"end":631.683,"text":"二、審查114年度二、審查114年度三、審查114年度二、審查114年度三、審查114年度"},{"start":651.033,"end":677.563,"text":"因為你來這邊也跟我說當然你跟捷運公司也說你們建議的方案就是一個整合性整合性的一個對耗資系統整合性的一個發包策略它的簡單的意思就是說假設是西門子或者亞斯通都不管哪一家你不是光做這個喔不是光是集結新車裝這個而已喔那未來我還有機場綠潔延伸線喔我還有龜山的中線喔"},{"start":681.585,"end":708.423,"text":"但是我問採購我問行政院工程會他說可以這樣搞啊你還講說未來還有丘龍華委員那邊的巴德大西亞我們10年以後發包也是你新門子的你敢講我不敢講我說真的如果這種叫做整合是不行的我是拜託局長因為現在的綠色捷運延伸線我特別要提醒當時在政事長時代發包的時候已經把延伸線作為後續擴充"},{"start":710.564,"end":724.061,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。netesle,你跟他講說你不要這個,已經被人家用一次了,後續擴充優先找他一架,所以你再跟他講我要跟你談,我已經是優先一架,這沒有用了,那未來中線456億有多少積電的?"},{"start":727.205,"end":727.705,"text":"adequ.委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":920,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（11時46分）謝謝主席，有請陳部長，還有鐵道局楊局長。"],["主席：請交通部陳部長，請楊局長。"],["魯委員明哲：好，直接切入主題。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["魯委員明哲：我們在機場捷運的號誌問題，因為現在面臨要新購10列車給6直4普。在購車的過程中，大家都知道，列車只是骨頭，它的神經系統就是號誌嘛！那號誌出問題，上次我在7月5日總質詢也講很多了，不過我不知道待會，因為上次質詢的是前部長李孟諺部長。"],["陳部長世凱：我記得。"],["魯委員明哲：不過我剛剛看到，不管是高雄的計畫時程、臺中的部分，之前李部長答應了，我相信陳部長，剛剛我看你回答的部分，有努力朝他的方向來進行。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["魯委員明哲：現在這個情況，我覺得交通部或行政院應該要很急耶！因為機場是國門的一個代表，有很多國際旅客嘛！現在恢復到這樣一個比例的話，如果搞得很難看，現在是人多到有一班根本擠不上去。待會我們證人就要講話了，我們牛委員每天來立法院，是我們機捷的愛用戶，經常擠不上去，待會他會來說。現在這個狀況，你不解決不行喔！來，我們聽一下。","（影片播放）"],["魯委員明哲：好，當天卓院長是特別說，因為我必須把這個放完，因為當時的部長畢竟不是陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我當時坐在旁邊，所以我有聽到，您的資訊我知道。"],["魯委員明哲：好，現在的情況是舊的系統DTG-R，西門子他們當時停產了，然後英維思公司……反正故事不講啦！那個東西現在就是量很少，然後替代方案也不太多。現在要購新車，你要去買那個舊的，但是又只能開到A21站，不能夠開到火車站。因為火車站最後新的兩標，兩站這個部分，當時鐵道局發包，裡面也變更成新的CBTC的系統，因為當時特別講這是一個院級的問題。","我說真的，那天聽到卓院長這樣說，我感受到對於這樣一個困難的問題，若問題不困難，我們沒有存在的必要。有困難的問題要我們去討論、去解決，我們覺得這是一個滿驕傲的，我們努力來解決看看。他講是院級的問題，我就覺得有希望了，行政院、交通部、鐵道局，大家來看一看，當然地方政府看大家怎麼樣配合。部長，五個月了，我本來講三個月，到今天五個月了，現在交通部開了幾次會？"],["陳部長世凱：這個我們有討論過吧？局長？"],["楊局長正君：我們沒有特別針對號誌議題開會。"],["魯委員明哲：所以沒有開會嘛！對不對？"],["楊局長正君：是。"],["魯委員明哲：那行政院當然沒有開會嘛！行政院覺得交通部已經當場講，但他交代前部長，所以你不算是不是？可是楊局長當時在場。我覺得我們院長至少講了一句話，就是中央一定很努力來協助地方，這是一個困難的問題，我聽到了，所以我們行政院交通部鐵道局，一定來支持大家。但問題是到現在我問你們，交通部本身沒開會，行政院當然也沒有開會，所以是一個假的院級問題！就是我很興奮，但他只是一個答題的技巧，一個質詢的技巧，我覺得這樣都不太好。","鐵道局目前針對這個案子，你們兩個理由啦！第一、因為桃園市政府，沒有就這樣的解決方案來請教你們，大概是這樣。第二、因為也不是你們局內業管的，買新車可能跟你關係也不大。可是我必須要說，跟我們卓院長在會中講的話不太對啊！部長，這樣好不好？至少桃捷還是要解決嘛！不然沒有辦法，這麼多客人在機場，國外的觀光客，有些車真的是擠爆了。再來，他的班距就15分鐘，如果普通車就15分鐘，想辦法縮短要買新車，那我就請教一下，你知不知現在號誌系統裡面討論的方案，大概有哪些嗎？目前地方政府解決的進度？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前地方政府比較希望整個號誌系統要提早重置，因為你要買新的車，那舊的號誌大概也買不到了，所以希望提早重置。在交通部的立場，其實我們是支持提早重置，這個部分我們是支持的，但是要由桃園市政府提出來，請他們提出來，我們會支持。"],["魯委員明哲：是提出來還是拿出來？這個動詞很重要。提出來是沒問題，但現在狀況是這樣，因為五個月了，畢竟他們是第一線，包括捷工局跟大眾捷運公司，不斷的找相關的單位開會，甚至有其他廠商大家來討論。現在因為頭已經洗下去了，髮都還沒有吹，議價有它的困難度。我以前覺得議價最困難的就是搬家公司把我冰箱、冷氣全部搬下去了，他倒過來跟我議價，我發覺那沒有辦法。","現在這個部分，他提了第一個是臨時的方案，所謂的ITC方案。因為機捷每天在走，像這種要邊營運邊修改，坦白講很困難，只有非營運時間，每天大概五、六個小時，就這樣而已，所以需要時間比較長。這個部分臨時性的方案，汰換的費用比較少，但是事後包括班距，它的班距根本沒有辦法縮短，然後維護成本很高，而且又是臨時的，四、五年換完之後，是不是又要考慮全部？","第二個方案是我們當時在討論，要全線到底，也謝謝鐵道局有發函給號誌公司，說希望你們來協助地方政府，好歹提出一個解決方案、提出一個報價，這是你們有發文的，這我知道。但他有報價啦！花七年時間，所有的機捷，從臺北火車站到中壢火車站，事實上後面兩站已經是CBTC了，所以有21站，全部換成這種現代化的系統。他報價不多啦！因為用歐元來看真的不多，3.2億，就是臺幣108億。","我覺得我們要面對這個問題，部長我拜託你啦！真的拜託你，你跟院長要幫忙一下鐵道局，鐵道局楊局長我跟他討論很多次，有這個心啦！但是大家看這個錢，也不是他鐵道局可以去決定的。我們現在再重新看一次，桃園市政府為了要把整個國門，甚至北北桃的整體運輸做好。假設按照之前談的，大概買車10列60億，大約一人一半，桃園市政府要出30億，中央補助30億。如果購車方案這種分配不變的話，但你忘了跟他說，你出30億，後面還附帶一點小小的108億改善系統，叫桃園市政府出。我是說真的啦！桃園市政府也不是聰明、但也不是笨，要他出108億來做這個，我是覺得不可能啦！部長，你覺得可不可能？我換個車花30億，然後還要花108億來更新這個系統，這個如果我們裝不知道，要桃園市政府好好去研究處理，這是不行的。部長，你發表一下意見好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實這個部分，我們可以跟桃園市政府來做整體的討論，包含整個機捷資產移轉的部分，大家來做一個共同的討論，或許能夠找出一個解決的方案。"],["魯委員明哲：好，這個我務必要拜託你，因為這真的是國家機場的大建設，因為從幾個航廈，未來三航廈要來，這個部分的客人真的很多，現在擠在那邊其實難看。這個108億整個補助叫地方出，實在是不可能。現在整個機捷的整包，我建議部長，整包要去研究一下，你們有第一個資產轉移方案，就是說我的廠站、軌道跟車，現在財產都在你們這裡，財產都還在這裡面，那你說你購車、號誌要丟給他，他當然也不願意嘛！你們目前這個方案，之前談到說好吧！我統統給你，包括廠站的一些土地，還有一些投資的統統給你，桃園市政府只要再交10億給我，這是第一個。第二個買車的方案60億，桃園市政府要出30億，你們30億，第三個就是這個號誌系統，我覺得這個不弄的話，我覺得不夠文明啦！這個要解決啦！"],["陳部長世凱：這個我們也支持啦！要提早重置這個部分。"],["魯委員明哲：我覺得你們三包一起去談，看大家能不能去做處理，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["魯委員明哲：局長，我最後跟你報告一下、說一下，因為你來這邊也跟我說，你跟那個捷運公司也說，你們建議的方案就是一個對號誌系統整合性的發包策略。簡單的意思就是說，假設是西門子或者亞斯通，不管哪一家，你不是光做這個喔！不光是機捷新車裝這個而已，未來我還有機場綠捷延伸線，還有龜山的棕線喔！可是我問採購，我問行政院工程會，他說：「靠！可以這樣搞啊？」你還講說，未來還有邱若華委員那邊的八德、大溪，我們10年以後發包也是你西門子的，你敢講我不敢講，我說真的，如果這種叫做整合是不行的。","我拜託局長，因為現在的綠色捷運延伸線，我特別要提醒，當時在鄭市長時代發包的時候，已經把延伸線作為後續擴充，已經跟他講說你不要這個，已經被人家用一次了，就是後續擴充優先找他議價。所以你再跟他講我要跟你談，他已經是優先議價，這沒有用啦！未來棕線的456億，可以這樣去談嗎？可以說未來一定是你，或者說如果你不聽我的話，未來一定不是你，這在採購法聽起來都有問題。","最後一句話，我是在這裡拜託部長，把機捷整包的問題拿起來，最後錢的問題大家來談嘛！地方可以協助多少，中央你一定要進來挺啦！好不好？大家把這個國門挺住，拜託一下，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲召委，下一位登記發言的委員，楊瓊瓔委員，請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-15","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林俊憲","陳素月","蔡其昌","游顥","何欣純","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","許智傑","鍾佳濱","黃健豪"],"page_start":379,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預\n算案關於交通部運輸研究所單位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部鐵道局及\n所屬單位預算；五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交\n通作業基金─鐵道發展基金分預算【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1140501_00014"}}}