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\"帶到委員的辦公室讓委員來親自審閱那我想這個部分等到看完之後其實這裡面其實都有這一個調查委員在整個過程裡面他的調查還有就是說為什麼不成立了一個相關的一個理由這個其實報告報告書裡面也都有一個非常具體的市長我要問你的是你作為召集人你都認同嗎這五個案子你有仔細的去了解過嗎報告委員這五個案子我都有我都有詳細的詳細的去了解我可以作證我也可以保證\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"帶\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 394.887, \"end\": 395.127, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 395.127, \"end\": 395.607, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 395.607, \"end\": 395.727, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 395.727, \"end\": 395.907, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"室\", \"start\": 395.907, \"end\": 396.247, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 396.247, \"end\": 397.768, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"親\"}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 397.768, \"end\": 398.868, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"閱\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 398.868, \"end\": 399.068, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 399.068, \"end\": 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401.569, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 401.569, \"end\": 401.709, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 401.709, \"end\": 402.809, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 402.809, \"end\": 403.089, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 403.089, \"end\": 403.229, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 403.229, \"end\": 403.449, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 403.449, \"end\": 403.569, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 403.569, \"end\": 403.91, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 403.91, \"end\": 404.13, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 404.13, \"end\": 404.29, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 404.29, \"end\": 404.43, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 404.43, \"end\": 404.73, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 404.73, \"end\": 405.45, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 405.45, \"end\": 405.63, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 405.63, \"end\": 405.81, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 405.81, \"end\": 406.33, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 406.33, \"end\": 406.51, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 406.51, \"end\": 406.63, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 406.63, \"end\": 406.79, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 406.79, \"end\": 406.89, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 406.89, \"end\": 406.97, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 406.97, \"end\": 407.09, \"score\": 0.737}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 407.09, \"end\": 407.371, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 407.371, \"end\": 407.451, 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{\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 411.032, \"end\": 411.112, \"score\": 0.762}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 411.112, \"end\": 411.252, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"具\", \"start\": 411.252, \"end\": 411.392, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 411.392, \"end\": 411.552, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 411.552, \"end\": 411.872, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 411.872, \"end\": 412.052, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 412.052, \"end\": 412.212, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 412.212, \"end\": 412.332, \"score\": 0.722}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 412.332, \"end\": 412.452, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 412.452, \"end\": 412.612, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 412.612, \"end\": 412.752, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 412.752, \"end\": 413.032, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, 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{\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 415.913, \"end\": 416.033, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 416.033, \"end\": 416.153, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 416.153, \"end\": 416.433, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 416.433, \"end\": 416.993, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 416.993, \"end\": 417.193, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 417.193, \"end\": 418.574, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 418.574, \"end\": 418.694, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 418.694, \"end\": 418.834, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 418.834, \"end\": 418.974, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 418.974, \"end\": 419.194, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 419.194, \"end\": 419.334, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 419.334, \"end\": 419.514, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 419.514, \"end\": 419.634, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 419.634, \"end\": 420.114, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 420.114, \"end\": 420.294, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"詳\"}, {\"word\": \"細\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 420.294, \"end\": 421.134, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"詳\"}, {\"word\": \"細\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 421.134, \"end\": 421.214, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 421.214, \"end\": 421.334, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 421.334, \"end\": 421.494, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 421.494, \"end\": 421.774, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 421.774, \"end\": 421.935, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 421.935, \"end\": 422.035, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 422.035, \"end\": 422.135, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 422.135, \"end\": 422.735, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"證\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 422.735, \"end\": 422.755, \"score\": 0.067}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 422.755, \"end\": 422.875, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 422.875, \"end\": 422.935, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 422.935, \"end\": 423.015, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 423.015, \"end\": 423.035, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"證\"}]}, {\"start\": 423.735, \"end\": 439.347, \"text\": \"所以你可以背書說這五個案子沒有冤枉不是霸凌案沒錯你會背書我會背書好那我們就等著看你們的這個內容是什麼因為我真的要提醒你們天秤的兩端不要傾斜是的當然那這一些\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 423.735, \"end\": 423.835, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 423.835, \"end\": 423.895, \"score\": 0.251}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 423.895, \"end\": 424.015, \"score\": 0.762}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 424.015, \"end\": 424.135, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 424.135, \"end\": 424.235, \"score\": 0.543}, {\"word\": \"背\", \"start\": 424.235, \"end\": 425.156, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 425.156, \"end\": 425.436, \"score\": 0.69}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 425.436, \"end\": 425.697, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 425.697, \"end\": 425.917, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 425.917, \"end\": 426.057, \"score\": 0.721}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 426.057, \"end\": 426.217, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"冤\", \"start\": 426.217, \"end\": 426.477, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"枉\", \"start\": 426.477, \"end\": 427.038, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 427.038, \"end\": 427.158, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 427.158, \"end\": 427.338, \"score\": 0.738}, {\"word\": \"霸\", \"start\": 427.338, \"end\": 427.498, \"score\": 0.69}, {\"word\": \"凌\", \"start\": 427.498, \"end\": 427.658, \"score\": 0.648}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 427.658, \"end\": 427.838, \"score\": 0.721}, {\"word\": \"沒\", 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\"你\", \"start\": 432.282, \"end\": 432.842, \"score\": 0.595}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 432.842, \"end\": 433.343, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"容\", \"start\": 433.343, \"end\": 433.523, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 433.523, \"end\": 433.683, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 433.683, \"end\": 434.263, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 434.263, \"end\": 434.423, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 434.423, \"end\": 434.564, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 434.564, \"end\": 434.664, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 434.664, \"end\": 434.784, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 434.784, \"end\": 434.884, \"score\": 0.454}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 434.884, \"end\": 435.064, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"醒\", \"start\": 435.064, \"end\": 435.244, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 435.244, \"end\": 435.845, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 435.845, \"end\": 436.205, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"秤\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 436.205, \"end\": 436.585, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"端\", \"start\": 436.585, \"end\": 437.066, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 437.066, \"end\": 437.126, \"score\": 0.674}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 437.126, \"end\": 437.626, \"score\": 0.736}, {\"word\": \"傾\"}, {\"word\": \"斜\", \"start\": 437.626, \"end\": 438.046, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 438.046, \"end\": 438.146, \"score\": 0.61}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 438.146, \"end\": 438.527, \"score\": 0.575}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 438.527, \"end\": 438.687, \"score\": 0.737}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 438.687, \"end\": 439.227, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 439.227, \"end\": 439.327, \"score\": 0.615}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 439.327, \"end\": 439.347, \"score\": 0.928}]}, {\"start\": 440.588, \"end\": 463.954, \"text\": \"今天會站出來的我覺得他是因為他受到了冤屈也受到了壓迫他才會站出來沒錯所以我們的調查過程一定是要非常的公平那最後一個問題就是說有關於時間的部分因為我們調查人數非常眾多那還有時間也非常非常緊我們必須要在這個社會的期待所以到底有沒有調查完整有報告委員我們調查完整我跟委員報告離職的轉調的都有約訪嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 440.588, \"end\": 440.748, \"score\": 0.693}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 440.748, \"end\": 441.068, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"站\", \"start\": 441.068, \"end\": 441.308, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 441.308, \"end\": 441.748, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 441.748, \"end\": 442.028, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 442.028, \"end\": 442.309, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 442.309, \"end\": 442.429, \"score\": 0.701}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 442.429, \"end\": 442.609, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 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\"end\": 522.241, \"text\": \"然後用言語去叫人家親生的這個這個只有深屆兩隻那長照的這個強迫運動的是小過一隻我就不知道你們這個懲戒的標準是什麼\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 517.672, \"end\": 517.913, \"score\": 0.617}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 517.913, \"end\": 518.073, \"score\": 0.727}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 518.073, \"end\": 518.314, \"score\": 0.649}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 518.314, \"end\": 519.135, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"語\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 519.135, \"end\": 519.315, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"叫\", \"start\": 519.315, \"end\": 519.516, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 519.516, \"end\": 519.656, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 519.656, \"end\": 519.776, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"親\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 519.776, \"end\": 519.796, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 519.796, \"end\": 519.876, \"score\": 0.217}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 519.876, 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\"start\": 795.558, \"end\": 795.758, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"康\", \"start\": 795.758, \"end\": 796.158, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"努\", \"start\": 796.158, \"end\": 796.358, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 796.358, \"end\": 796.539, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 796.539, \"end\": 796.659, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 796.659, \"end\": 796.759, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 796.759, \"end\": 797.299, \"score\": 0.608}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 797.299, \"end\": 797.379, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 797.379, \"end\": 797.779, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 797.779, \"end\": 797.859, \"score\": 0.737}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 797.859, \"end\": 797.999, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"朝\", \"start\": 797.999, \"end\": 798.359, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 798.359, \"end\": 798.479, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 798.479, \"end\": 798.819, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 798.819, \"end\": 798.939, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 798.939, \"end\": 799.179, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"努\", \"start\": 799.179, \"end\": 799.319, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 799.319, \"end\": 799.679, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 799.679, \"end\": 799.699, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,209 --> 00:00:17,408\n歡迎委員質詢好,謝謝主席。我們是不是有請部長?委員好\n\n2\n00:00:18,123 --> 00:00:37,880\n部長好,剛剛這個提案討論的時候大家花了很多時間在討論你們今天提出的這份報告主要是你們精簡的太厲害了你們剛剛說你們有幾十頁的報告結果今天送出來的就是六頁那這六頁當中其實都看不出這個過程\n\n3\n00:00:39,201 --> 00:00:56,542\n也看不了事實只有你們的結論所以當然外界對於這樣的一份報告就是高度的存疑不知道你們到底是怎麼去調查的嗎我現在以下就要問你們你們這整個的調查過程第一件事情\n\n4\n00:00:57,623 --> 00:01:26,019\n你們總共請了四位外部委員但是你要調查八個案子請問你們每一個案子花多少時間去訪談每一個人員訪談的時間有多久來請回答好我請那個周基仁處長處長誰要回答這邊跟那個委員報告願意受訪的同仁每個人至少15分鐘\n\n5\n00:01:28,297 --> 00:01:55,919\n才15分鐘至少15分鐘至少15分鐘有幾位平均每個人下來都有10個人次因為8個案子吧96人還是人次人人次所以總共訪談幾位總共訪談96位96位這不是人次嗎對96人嘛對一個人15分鐘至少15分鐘那最多呢\n\n6\n00:01:57,492 --> 00:02:12,027\n最多不好意思因為我最多其實我們都盡量讓他們講啦應該是大概15到30分鐘啦而且還有\n\n7\n00:02:15,174 --> 00:02:25,656\n委員是不是允許我先這樣做那個報告到時候到您那個辦公室的時候都會都會有一些相關的資料給您看謝謝我會問這個問題就是我要知道衛福部是不是認真確實的調查因為調查的過程非常的重要從今天六月的報告大家都看不到到底發生什麼事情所以那個調查的過程\n\n8\n00:02:41,500 --> 00:03:07,580\n你有沒有足夠的時間去做讓這個當事人可以做足夠的反應其實這個是非常的關鍵所以因為這個報告大家都看不到事實所以大家才會有這麼多的一個疑問另外一個是你八案當中只有三案成立五案沒有成立報告當中也沒有去宰明不成立的原因為何所以你這份報告坦白講簡化成這樣子難怪委員這麼不滿意啊\n\n9\n00:03:11,503 --> 00:03:16,126\n因為打不殺殺看到你這個只有懲處但根本發生什麼事情大家還是完全得不到資訊啊那你們剛剛說是要保護這一些申訴者這個我當然贊成因為他們是受害者他們今天好不容易鼓起勇氣出來檢舉了但是他為什麼要出來檢舉因為忍無可忍而檢舉之後他要的是一個什麼是一個公平正義是希望衛福部還他一個公道\n\n10\n00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:53,027\n讓他以後可以安心在這個職場不要受到長官不當的要求跟對待甚至是霸凌所以如果你的調查報告沒有還給當事人一個應有的公道的話以後會造成什麼?寒產效應\n\n11\n00:03:54,528 --> 00:04:09,344\n就是申訴了也沒有用啊今天花那麼大的力氣輿論討論這麼久結果我去申訴了這當中這五案我特別關切的是這五案為什麼不成立坦白講申訴要很大的勇氣\n\n12\n00:04:10,385 --> 00:04:30,478\n但是如果用這麼大的勇氣然後也訪談了然後也講了結果最後你就告訴當事人說不成立你知道那個會有多挫折過去我也在地方服務過我處理過這個性騷擾相關的案件你知道那個有的當事人當他被宣告他性騷擾不成立的時候他憂鬱症的開始\n\n13\n00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:58,626\n因為他覺得我都這麼鼓起勇氣跟你政府單位申訴結果調查人調查完之後說不成立簡簡單單說不成立三個字他就要痛苦一輩子所以我要提醒部長的事提醒次長的事我們是應該要站在這一些申訴者這一方當今天他是長期的被欺壓跟壓迫之後才反映出這個事情的時候我贊成你剛剛講的勿往勿縱\n\n14\n00:05:00,626 --> 00:05:23,382\n但是請你更站在一個每一個鼓起勇氣已經要跟你們投訴的這些人的立場想一想他今天是鼓起多大的勇氣才敢講這件事就像你們剛剛說你們是要保護他這個我贊成因為他是鼓起很大的勇氣但如果你的結果是讓他極度失望的話你要知道那個後座力有多強沒有憂鬱症的可能會變有憂鬱症\n\n15\n00:05:27,045 --> 00:05:45,444\n因為他覺得無望了他都花那麼大的力氣去爭取了結果是被打回票請問兩位你們有掌握這五案不成立的理由你們覺得真的是充分嗎這些調查委員的調查真的夠仔細嗎我要你們特別關注的是不成案的這五個案子你們每一個都有仔細的了解嗎\n\n16\n00:05:51,057 --> 00:06:16,560\n總召還有報告委員我想分兩點來說明報告委員其實我之前我在台中也當過社會局長您剛剛所說的像性侵害、性騷擾等等這些基本上也是我的業務範圍相關的這個報告其實就像您所說的其實如果沒有成立的話對於這個提起的人就基本上這事實上都是另外一個打擊所以我們確實也都是抱持同樣的心情\n\n17\n00:06:17,280 --> 00:06:32,026\n同時也要利用這個機會就是要還給被相對的人一個應有的公道來建立我們的這個資產環境這是第一個重點第二個重點我跟委員報告就是說我們剛剛也已經有一個決議就是說我們到時候會將報告\n\n18\n00:06:34,887 --> 00:07:03,035\n帶到委員的辦公室讓委員來親自審閱那我想這個部分等到看完之後其實這裡面其實都有這一個調查委員在整個過程裡面他的調查還有就是說為什麼不成立了一個相關的一個理由這個其實報告報告書裡面也都有一個非常具體的市長我要問你的是你作為召集人你都認同嗎這五個案子你有仔細的去了解過嗎報告委員這五個案子我都有我都有詳細的詳細的去了解我可以作證我也可以保證\n\n19\n00:07:03,735 --> 00:07:19,347\n所以你可以背書說這五個案子沒有冤枉不是霸凌案沒錯你會背書我會背書好那我們就等著看你們的這個內容是什麼因為我真的要提醒你們天秤的兩端不要傾斜是的當然那這一些\n\n20\n00:07:20,588 --> 00:07:43,954\n今天會站出來的我覺得他是因為他受到了冤屈也受到了壓迫他才會站出來沒錯所以我們的調查過程一定是要非常的公平那最後一個問題就是說有關於時間的部分因為我們調查人數非常眾多那還有時間也非常非常緊我們必須要在這個社會的期待所以到底有沒有調查完整有報告委員我們調查完整我跟委員報告離職的轉調的都有約訪嗎\n\n21\n00:07:48,135 --> 00:07:48,815\n短調的呢?\n\n22\n00:08:08,465 --> 00:08:21,588\n符合真相沒有掩蓋也沒有偏袒這樣的一個調查報告才能讓大家信服所以你們後續提供這個完整調查報告我們會仔細再來看另外一個你們這一次的霸凌案的處置不如勞動部的2.0版你們看起來你們那個標準其實是不一致的在勞動部裡面強迫跑步是霸凌你們強迫深蹲間報告不是霸凌\n\n23\n00:08:37,672 --> 00:08:42,241\n然後用言語去叫人家親生的這個這個只有深屆兩隻那長照的這個強迫運動的是小過一隻我就不知道你們這個懲戒的標準是什麼\n\n24\n00:08:52,997 --> 00:09:03,905\n你們最終做出這個懲戒是由什麼樣的單位做出來的?是人事單位嗎?不是,報告委員,其實誠如我剛剛所說就是說我們在這裡面這也是調查委員?不可能吧?報告委員,這就是調查委員你調查委員有是熟悉公務體系啊?你不是說是專家學者嗎?外部的專家學者怎麼來告訴你,你那個懲處的那個範圍?報告委員,我們在這裡面所以要你們自己有意見啊?\n\n25\n00:09:18,095 --> 00:09:28,947\n這個委員他們基本上整個調查程序裡面都有按照他的所收集的主客觀的資料還有訪談的資料之後然後做出一個整個做出一個裁決﹖稱處怎麼會是委員來建議呢?\n\n26\n00:09:32,811 --> 00:09:39,579\n他們是調查報告出來之後然後經過兩道程序第一個就是由我親自主持跟所有專家這邊我們經過詳細的討論之後然後做出了一個整個這一個相關的決議這是第一個重點第二個決議完之後還要送我們的安全防護衛生小組來做審議\n\n27\n00:09:51,874 --> 00:10:08,070\n要記小過要記深切要不要大過要不要降調這個怎麼會是屬於外部專家委員的職權他們是建議完之後經過我剛剛說的安全衛生小組最後考機會那你們沒有看到你們這一個懲處的標準是不一嗎因為它的情節輕重不一啊\n\n28\n00:10:09,335 --> 00:10:13,297\n所以你說教人家輕聲的這一種言語的不當是比較輕的然後深蹲是比較重的我們經過調查裡面已經有說就是說這一個他所謂的所謂的所謂的輕聲等等是指\n\n29\n00:10:25,984 --> 00:10:44,139\n市長有我提醒你齁如果言語會去霸凌別人的人這個是有他性格上面的問題不會是只有一次也不會是單一事件而剛剛已經有委員具體的指出來在他擔任組長期間\n\n30\n00:10:46,229 --> 00:11:06,781\n也有同樣的一個情況那會不會所以我就懷疑你們問的對象到底是誰嗎如果說他只是突然冒出口一個人不會這樣子他不會突然蹦出這樣的話那麼嚴厲的叫人家輕聲這樣的話那是跟他原來的性格某一個部分是有關係的所以你們真的是有鉅細靡遺的去訪談嗎就像我們看到勞動部的謝義勇\n\n31\n00:11:12,671 --> 00:11:39,957\n他就是藏起來就是這個樣子啊他不會突然這樣直接講一句話去霸凌別人沒有這件事情他大概他的風格就會是這個樣子所以謝用一開始也說無姓員工跟他完全沒有關係他說完全沒有關係還要請律師發聲明稿結果勞動部第二次部長下令要嚴審調查之後翻轉了而且是大逆轉有關因為是從工作上面的壓迫一直下來的\n\n32\n00:11:42,113 --> 00:12:08,287\n所以我要提醒部長跟次長就是說在處理這件事情你們一定是要放開你心中的包袱一定當然我知道衛福部裡面很多一級主管大家都很辛苦這是一回事但是如果他在過程當中他有不當的管理壓迫甚至是霸凌然後讓底下的員工更辛苦這他就不適合這個主管他也不適合主管是要帶領的\n\n33\n00:12:09,187 --> 00:12:32,497\n不是去壓迫下面的員工的所以你這個一定是要切割開來處理但是我看到你們現在的懲處內容你們就沒有一致的標準你們的輕重坦白講是沒有一致的標準跟勞動部的比起來你們是比較輕你們是輕輕放下這個我不知道是什麼樣的原因但是我覺得應該要處理最後我提醒不只是你們公部門的這個霸凌\n\n34\n00:12:34,298 --> 00:12:42,944\n還有醫院的霸凌也層出不窮我具體一個建議醫院的這個部分也是一定要處理醫護人員其實也都是非常辛苦這個他們醫師公會已經這個要求就是霸凌的申訴機制要納為這個評鑑的項目部長你應該表態這件事情你贊成還是反對我同意同意同意同意嗎好\n\n35\n00:12:56,534 --> 00:13:19,699\n那我希望這個醫院的體制裡面也不應該有這樣的一個情況之前我們看到有護理師遭到霸凌自殘這個也是不應該發生的事情所以未來應該建立一個機制然後讓我們的醫護人員都在一個健康的環境不被霸凌欺壓的環境可以安心的這個為國人的健康來努力好不好一定一定朝這個方面全力來努力好謝謝謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n209\t17408\t歡迎委員質詢好,謝謝主席。我們是不是有請部長?委員好\n18123\t37880\t部長好,剛剛這個提案討論的時候大家花了很多時間在討論你們今天提出的這份報告主要是你們精簡的太厲害了你們剛剛說你們有幾十頁的報告結果今天送出來的就是六頁那這六頁當中其實都看不出這個過程\n39201\t56542\t也看不了事實只有你們的結論所以當然外界對於這樣的一份報告就是高度的存疑不知道你們到底是怎麼去調查的嗎我現在以下就要問你們你們這整個的調查過程第一件事情\n57623\t86019\t你們總共請了四位外部委員但是你要調查八個案子請問你們每一個案子花多少時間去訪談每一個人員訪談的時間有多久來請回答好我請那個周基仁處長處長誰要回答這邊跟那個委員報告願意受訪的同仁每個人至少15分鐘\n88297\t115919\t才15分鐘至少15分鐘至少15分鐘有幾位平均每個人下來都有10個人次因為8個案子吧96人還是人次人人次所以總共訪談幾位總共訪談96位96位這不是人次嗎對96人嘛對一個人15分鐘至少15分鐘那最多呢\n117492\t132027\t最多不好意思因為我最多其實我們都盡量讓他們講啦應該是大概15到30分鐘啦而且還有\n135174\t145656\t委員是不是允許我先這樣做那個報告到時候到您那個辦公室的時候都會都會有一些相關的資料給您看謝謝我會問這個問題就是我要知道衛福部是不是認真確實的調查因為調查的過程非常的重要從今天六月的報告大家都看不到到底發生什麼事情所以那個調查的過程\n161500\t187580\t你有沒有足夠的時間去做讓這個當事人可以做足夠的反應其實這個是非常的關鍵所以因為這個報告大家都看不到事實所以大家才會有這麼多的一個疑問另外一個是你八案當中只有三案成立五案沒有成立報告當中也沒有去宰明不成立的原因為何所以你這份報告坦白講簡化成這樣子難怪委員這麼不滿意啊\n191503\t196126\t因為打不殺殺看到你這個只有懲處但根本發生什麼事情大家還是完全得不到資訊啊那你們剛剛說是要保護這一些申訴者這個我當然贊成因為他們是受害者他們今天好不容易鼓起勇氣出來檢舉了但是他為什麼要出來檢舉因為忍無可忍而檢舉之後他要的是一個什麼是一個公平正義是希望衛福部還他一個公道\n219120\t233027\t讓他以後可以安心在這個職場不要受到長官不當的要求跟對待甚至是霸凌所以如果你的調查報告沒有還給當事人一個應有的公道的話以後會造成什麼?寒產效應\n234528\t249344\t就是申訴了也沒有用啊今天花那麼大的力氣輿論討論這麼久結果我去申訴了這當中這五案我特別關切的是這五案為什麼不成立坦白講申訴要很大的勇氣\n250385\t270478\t但是如果用這麼大的勇氣然後也訪談了然後也講了結果最後你就告訴當事人說不成立你知道那個會有多挫折過去我也在地方服務過我處理過這個性騷擾相關的案件你知道那個有的當事人當他被宣告他性騷擾不成立的時候他憂鬱症的開始\n273320\t298626\t因為他覺得我都這麼鼓起勇氣跟你政府單位申訴結果調查人調查完之後說不成立簡簡單單說不成立三個字他就要痛苦一輩子所以我要提醒部長的事提醒次長的事我們是應該要站在這一些申訴者這一方當今天他是長期的被欺壓跟壓迫之後才反映出這個事情的時候我贊成你剛剛講的勿往勿縱\n300626\t323382\t但是請你更站在一個每一個鼓起勇氣已經要跟你們投訴的這些人的立場想一想他今天是鼓起多大的勇氣才敢講這件事就像你們剛剛說你們是要保護他這個我贊成因為他是鼓起很大的勇氣但如果你的結果是讓他極度失望的話你要知道那個後座力有多強沒有憂鬱症的可能會變有憂鬱症\n327045\t345444\t因為他覺得無望了他都花那麼大的力氣去爭取了結果是被打回票請問兩位你們有掌握這五案不成立的理由你們覺得真的是充分嗎這些調查委員的調查真的夠仔細嗎我要你們特別關注的是不成案的這五個案子你們每一個都有仔細的了解嗎\n351057\t376560\t總召還有報告委員我想分兩點來說明報告委員其實我之前我在台中也當過社會局長您剛剛所說的像性侵害、性騷擾等等這些基本上也是我的業務範圍相關的這個報告其實就像您所說的其實如果沒有成立的話對於這個提起的人就基本上這事實上都是另外一個打擊所以我們確實也都是抱持同樣的心情\n377280\t392026\t同時也要利用這個機會就是要還給被相對的人一個應有的公道來建立我們的這個資產環境這是第一個重點第二個重點我跟委員報告就是說我們剛剛也已經有一個決議就是說我們到時候會將報告\n394887\t423035\t帶到委員的辦公室讓委員來親自審閱那我想這個部分等到看完之後其實這裡面其實都有這一個調查委員在整個過程裡面他的調查還有就是說為什麼不成立了一個相關的一個理由這個其實報告報告書裡面也都有一個非常具體的市長我要問你的是你作為召集人你都認同嗎這五個案子你有仔細的去了解過嗎報告委員這五個案子我都有我都有詳細的詳細的去了解我可以作證我也可以保證\n423735\t439347\t所以你可以背書說這五個案子沒有冤枉不是霸凌案沒錯你會背書我會背書好那我們就等著看你們的這個內容是什麼因為我真的要提醒你們天秤的兩端不要傾斜是的當然那這一些\n440588\t463954\t今天會站出來的我覺得他是因為他受到了冤屈也受到了壓迫他才會站出來沒錯所以我們的調查過程一定是要非常的公平那最後一個問題就是說有關於時間的部分因為我們調查人數非常眾多那還有時間也非常非常緊我們必須要在這個社會的期待所以到底有沒有調查完整有報告委員我們調查完整我跟委員報告離職的轉調的都有約訪嗎\n468135\t468815\t短調的呢?\n488465\t501588\t符合真相沒有掩蓋也沒有偏袒這樣的一個調查報告才能讓大家信服所以你們後續提供這個完整調查報告我們會仔細再來看另外一個你們這一次的霸凌案的處置不如勞動部的2.0版你們看起來你們那個標準其實是不一致的在勞動部裡面強迫跑步是霸凌你們強迫深蹲間報告不是霸凌\n517672\t522241\t然後用言語去叫人家親生的這個這個只有深屆兩隻那長照的這個強迫運動的是小過一隻我就不知道你們這個懲戒的標準是什麼\n532997\t543905\t你們最終做出這個懲戒是由什麼樣的單位做出來的?是人事單位嗎?不是,報告委員,其實誠如我剛剛所說就是說我們在這裡面這也是調查委員?不可能吧?報告委員,這就是調查委員你調查委員有是熟悉公務體系啊?你不是說是專家學者嗎?外部的專家學者怎麼來告訴你,你那個懲處的那個範圍?報告委員,我們在這裡面所以要你們自己有意見啊?\n558095\t568947\t這個委員他們基本上整個調查程序裡面都有按照他的所收集的主客觀的資料還有訪談的資料之後然後做出一個整個做出一個裁決﹖稱處怎麼會是委員來建議呢?\n572811\t579579\t他們是調查報告出來之後然後經過兩道程序第一個就是由我親自主持跟所有專家這邊我們經過詳細的討論之後然後做出了一個整個這一個相關的決議這是第一個重點第二個決議完之後還要送我們的安全防護衛生小組來做審議\n591874\t608070\t要記小過要記深切要不要大過要不要降調這個怎麼會是屬於外部專家委員的職權他們是建議完之後經過我剛剛說的安全衛生小組最後考機會那你們沒有看到你們這一個懲處的標準是不一嗎因為它的情節輕重不一啊\n609335\t613297\t所以你說教人家輕聲的這一種言語的不當是比較輕的然後深蹲是比較重的我們經過調查裡面已經有說就是說這一個他所謂的所謂的所謂的輕聲等等是指\n625984\t644139\t市長有我提醒你齁如果言語會去霸凌別人的人這個是有他性格上面的問題不會是只有一次也不會是單一事件而剛剛已經有委員具體的指出來在他擔任組長期間\n646229\t666781\t也有同樣的一個情況那會不會所以我就懷疑你們問的對象到底是誰嗎如果說他只是突然冒出口一個人不會這樣子他不會突然蹦出這樣的話那麼嚴厲的叫人家輕聲這樣的話那是跟他原來的性格某一個部分是有關係的所以你們真的是有鉅細靡遺的去訪談嗎就像我們看到勞動部的謝義勇\n672671\t699957\t他就是藏起來就是這個樣子啊他不會突然這樣直接講一句話去霸凌別人沒有這件事情他大概他的風格就會是這個樣子所以謝用一開始也說無姓員工跟他完全沒有關係他說完全沒有關係還要請律師發聲明稿結果勞動部第二次部長下令要嚴審調查之後翻轉了而且是大逆轉有關因為是從工作上面的壓迫一直下來的\n702113\t728287\t所以我要提醒部長跟次長就是說在處理這件事情你們一定是要放開你心中的包袱一定當然我知道衛福部裡面很多一級主管大家都很辛苦這是一回事但是如果他在過程當中他有不當的管理壓迫甚至是霸凌然後讓底下的員工更辛苦這他就不適合這個主管他也不適合主管是要帶領的\n729187\t752497\t不是去壓迫下面的員工的所以你這個一定是要切割開來處理但是我看到你們現在的懲處內容你們就沒有一致的標準你們的輕重坦白講是沒有一致的標準跟勞動部的比起來你們是比較輕你們是輕輕放下這個我不知道是什麼樣的原因但是我覺得應該要處理最後我提醒不只是你們公部門的這個霸凌\n754298\t762944\t還有醫院的霸凌也層出不窮我具體一個建議醫院的這個部分也是一定要處理醫護人員其實也都是非常辛苦這個他們醫師公會已經這個要求就是霸凌的申訴機制要納為這個評鑑的項目部長你應該表態這件事情你贊成還是反對我同意同意同意同意嗎好\n776534\t799699\t那我希望這個醫院的體制裡面也不應該有這樣的一個情況之前我們看到有護理師遭到霸凌自殘這個也是不應該發生的事情所以未來應該建立一個機制然後讓我們的醫護人員都在一個健康的環境不被霸凌欺壓的環境可以安心的這個為國人的健康來努力好不好一定一定朝這個方面全力來努力好謝謝謝謝\n","txt":"歡迎委員質詢好,謝謝主席。我們是不是有請部長?委員好\n部長好,剛剛這個提案討論的時候大家花了很多時間在討論你們今天提出的這份報告主要是你們精簡的太厲害了你們剛剛說你們有幾十頁的報告結果今天送出來的就是六頁那這六頁當中其實都看不出這個過程\n也看不了事實只有你們的結論所以當然外界對於這樣的一份報告就是高度的存疑不知道你們到底是怎麼去調查的嗎我現在以下就要問你們你們這整個的調查過程第一件事情\n你們總共請了四位外部委員但是你要調查八個案子請問你們每一個案子花多少時間去訪談每一個人員訪談的時間有多久來請回答好我請那個周基仁處長處長誰要回答這邊跟那個委員報告願意受訪的同仁每個人至少15分鐘\n才15分鐘至少15分鐘至少15分鐘有幾位平均每個人下來都有10個人次因為8個案子吧96人還是人次人人次所以總共訪談幾位總共訪談96位96位這不是人次嗎對96人嘛對一個人15分鐘至少15分鐘那最多呢\n最多不好意思因為我最多其實我們都盡量讓他們講啦應該是大概15到30分鐘啦而且還有\n委員是不是允許我先這樣做那個報告到時候到您那個辦公室的時候都會都會有一些相關的資料給您看謝謝我會問這個問題就是我要知道衛福部是不是認真確實的調查因為調查的過程非常的重要從今天六月的報告大家都看不到到底發生什麼事情所以那個調查的過程\n你有沒有足夠的時間去做讓這個當事人可以做足夠的反應其實這個是非常的關鍵所以因為這個報告大家都看不到事實所以大家才會有這麼多的一個疑問另外一個是你八案當中只有三案成立五案沒有成立報告當中也沒有去宰明不成立的原因為何所以你這份報告坦白講簡化成這樣子難怪委員這麼不滿意啊\n因為打不殺殺看到你這個只有懲處但根本發生什麼事情大家還是完全得不到資訊啊那你們剛剛說是要保護這一些申訴者這個我當然贊成因為他們是受害者他們今天好不容易鼓起勇氣出來檢舉了但是他為什麼要出來檢舉因為忍無可忍而檢舉之後他要的是一個什麼是一個公平正義是希望衛福部還他一個公道\n讓他以後可以安心在這個職場不要受到長官不當的要求跟對待甚至是霸凌所以如果你的調查報告沒有還給當事人一個應有的公道的話以後會造成什麼?寒產效應\n就是申訴了也沒有用啊今天花那麼大的力氣輿論討論這麼久結果我去申訴了這當中這五案我特別關切的是這五案為什麼不成立坦白講申訴要很大的勇氣\n但是如果用這麼大的勇氣然後也訪談了然後也講了結果最後你就告訴當事人說不成立你知道那個會有多挫折過去我也在地方服務過我處理過這個性騷擾相關的案件你知道那個有的當事人當他被宣告他性騷擾不成立的時候他憂鬱症的開始\n因為他覺得我都這麼鼓起勇氣跟你政府單位申訴結果調查人調查完之後說不成立簡簡單單說不成立三個字他就要痛苦一輩子所以我要提醒部長的事提醒次長的事我們是應該要站在這一些申訴者這一方當今天他是長期的被欺壓跟壓迫之後才反映出這個事情的時候我贊成你剛剛講的勿往勿縱\n但是請你更站在一個每一個鼓起勇氣已經要跟你們投訴的這些人的立場想一想他今天是鼓起多大的勇氣才敢講這件事就像你們剛剛說你們是要保護他這個我贊成因為他是鼓起很大的勇氣但如果你的結果是讓他極度失望的話你要知道那個後座力有多強沒有憂鬱症的可能會變有憂鬱症\n因為他覺得無望了他都花那麼大的力氣去爭取了結果是被打回票請問兩位你們有掌握這五案不成立的理由你們覺得真的是充分嗎這些調查委員的調查真的夠仔細嗎我要你們特別關注的是不成案的這五個案子你們每一個都有仔細的了解嗎\n總召還有報告委員我想分兩點來說明報告委員其實我之前我在台中也當過社會局長您剛剛所說的像性侵害、性騷擾等等這些基本上也是我的業務範圍相關的這個報告其實就像您所說的其實如果沒有成立的話對於這個提起的人就基本上這事實上都是另外一個打擊所以我們確實也都是抱持同樣的心情\n同時也要利用這個機會就是要還給被相對的人一個應有的公道來建立我們的這個資產環境這是第一個重點第二個重點我跟委員報告就是說我們剛剛也已經有一個決議就是說我們到時候會將報告\n帶到委員的辦公室讓委員來親自審閱那我想這個部分等到看完之後其實這裡面其實都有這一個調查委員在整個過程裡面他的調查還有就是說為什麼不成立了一個相關的一個理由這個其實報告報告書裡面也都有一個非常具體的市長我要問你的是你作為召集人你都認同嗎這五個案子你有仔細的去了解過嗎報告委員這五個案子我都有我都有詳細的詳細的去了解我可以作證我也可以保證\n所以你可以背書說這五個案子沒有冤枉不是霸凌案沒錯你會背書我會背書好那我們就等著看你們的這個內容是什麼因為我真的要提醒你們天秤的兩端不要傾斜是的當然那這一些\n今天會站出來的我覺得他是因為他受到了冤屈也受到了壓迫他才會站出來沒錯所以我們的調查過程一定是要非常的公平那最後一個問題就是說有關於時間的部分因為我們調查人數非常眾多那還有時間也非常非常緊我們必須要在這個社會的期待所以到底有沒有調查完整有報告委員我們調查完整我跟委員報告離職的轉調的都有約訪嗎\n短調的呢?\n符合真相沒有掩蓋也沒有偏袒這樣的一個調查報告才能讓大家信服所以你們後續提供這個完整調查報告我們會仔細再來看另外一個你們這一次的霸凌案的處置不如勞動部的2.0版你們看起來你們那個標準其實是不一致的在勞動部裡面強迫跑步是霸凌你們強迫深蹲間報告不是霸凌\n然後用言語去叫人家親生的這個這個只有深屆兩隻那長照的這個強迫運動的是小過一隻我就不知道你們這個懲戒的標準是什麼\n你們最終做出這個懲戒是由什麼樣的單位做出來的?是人事單位嗎?不是,報告委員,其實誠如我剛剛所說就是說我們在這裡面這也是調查委員?不可能吧?報告委員,這就是調查委員你調查委員有是熟悉公務體系啊?你不是說是專家學者嗎?外部的專家學者怎麼來告訴你,你那個懲處的那個範圍?報告委員,我們在這裡面所以要你們自己有意見啊?\n這個委員他們基本上整個調查程序裡面都有按照他的所收集的主客觀的資料還有訪談的資料之後然後做出一個整個做出一個裁決﹖稱處怎麼會是委員來建議呢?\n他們是調查報告出來之後然後經過兩道程序第一個就是由我親自主持跟所有專家這邊我們經過詳細的討論之後然後做出了一個整個這一個相關的決議這是第一個重點第二個決議完之後還要送我們的安全防護衛生小組來做審議\n要記小過要記深切要不要大過要不要降調這個怎麼會是屬於外部專家委員的職權他們是建議完之後經過我剛剛說的安全衛生小組最後考機會那你們沒有看到你們這一個懲處的標準是不一嗎因為它的情節輕重不一啊\n所以你說教人家輕聲的這一種言語的不當是比較輕的然後深蹲是比較重的我們經過調查裡面已經有說就是說這一個他所謂的所謂的所謂的輕聲等等是指\n市長有我提醒你齁如果言語會去霸凌別人的人這個是有他性格上面的問題不會是只有一次也不會是單一事件而剛剛已經有委員具體的指出來在他擔任組長期間\n也有同樣的一個情況那會不會所以我就懷疑你們問的對象到底是誰嗎如果說他只是突然冒出口一個人不會這樣子他不會突然蹦出這樣的話那麼嚴厲的叫人家輕聲這樣的話那是跟他原來的性格某一個部分是有關係的所以你們真的是有鉅細靡遺的去訪談嗎就像我們看到勞動部的謝義勇\n他就是藏起來就是這個樣子啊他不會突然這樣直接講一句話去霸凌別人沒有這件事情他大概他的風格就會是這個樣子所以謝用一開始也說無姓員工跟他完全沒有關係他說完全沒有關係還要請律師發聲明稿結果勞動部第二次部長下令要嚴審調查之後翻轉了而且是大逆轉有關因為是從工作上面的壓迫一直下來的\n所以我要提醒部長跟次長就是說在處理這件事情你們一定是要放開你心中的包袱一定當然我知道衛福部裡面很多一級主管大家都很辛苦這是一回事但是如果他在過程當中他有不當的管理壓迫甚至是霸凌然後讓底下的員工更辛苦這他就不適合這個主管他也不適合主管是要帶領的\n不是去壓迫下面的員工的所以你這個一定是要切割開來處理但是我看到你們現在的懲處內容你們就沒有一致的標準你們的輕重坦白講是沒有一致的標準跟勞動部的比起來你們是比較輕你們是輕輕放下這個我不知道是什麼樣的原因但是我覺得應該要處理最後我提醒不只是你們公部門的這個霸凌\n還有醫院的霸凌也層出不窮我具體一個建議醫院的這個部分也是一定要處理醫護人員其實也都是非常辛苦這個他們醫師公會已經這個要求就是霸凌的申訴機制要納為這個評鑑的項目部長你應該表態這件事情你贊成還是反對我同意同意同意同意嗎好\n那我希望這個醫院的體制裡面也不應該有這樣的一個情況之前我們看到有護理師遭到霸凌自殘這個也是不應該發生的事情所以未來應該建立一個機制然後讓我們的醫護人員都在一個健康的環境不被霸凌欺壓的環境可以安心的這個為國人的健康來努力好不好一定一定朝這個方面全力來努力好謝謝謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.209 --> 00:17.408\n歡迎委員質詢好,謝謝主席。我們是不是有請部長?委員好\n\n00:18.123 --> 00:37.880\n部長好,剛剛這個提案討論的時候大家花了很多時間在討論你們今天提出的這份報告主要是你們精簡的太厲害了你們剛剛說你們有幾十頁的報告結果今天送出來的就是六頁那這六頁當中其實都看不出這個過程\n\n00:39.201 --> 00:56.542\n也看不了事實只有你們的結論所以當然外界對於這樣的一份報告就是高度的存疑不知道你們到底是怎麼去調查的嗎我現在以下就要問你們你們這整個的調查過程第一件事情\n\n00:57.623 --> 01:26.019\n你們總共請了四位外部委員但是你要調查八個案子請問你們每一個案子花多少時間去訪談每一個人員訪談的時間有多久來請回答好我請那個周基仁處長處長誰要回答這邊跟那個委員報告願意受訪的同仁每個人至少15分鐘\n\n01:28.297 --> 01:55.919\n才15分鐘至少15分鐘至少15分鐘有幾位平均每個人下來都有10個人次因為8個案子吧96人還是人次人人次所以總共訪談幾位總共訪談96位96位這不是人次嗎對96人嘛對一個人15分鐘至少15分鐘那最多呢\n\n01:57.492 --> 02:12.027\n最多不好意思因為我最多其實我們都盡量讓他們講啦應該是大概15到30分鐘啦而且還有\n\n02:15.174 --> 02:25.656\n委員是不是允許我先這樣做那個報告到時候到您那個辦公室的時候都會都會有一些相關的資料給您看謝謝我會問這個問題就是我要知道衛福部是不是認真確實的調查因為調查的過程非常的重要從今天六月的報告大家都看不到到底發生什麼事情所以那個調查的過程\n\n02:41.500 --> 03:07.580\n你有沒有足夠的時間去做讓這個當事人可以做足夠的反應其實這個是非常的關鍵所以因為這個報告大家都看不到事實所以大家才會有這麼多的一個疑問另外一個是你八案當中只有三案成立五案沒有成立報告當中也沒有去宰明不成立的原因為何所以你這份報告坦白講簡化成這樣子難怪委員這麼不滿意啊\n\n03:11.503 --> 03:16.126\n因為打不殺殺看到你這個只有懲處但根本發生什麼事情大家還是完全得不到資訊啊那你們剛剛說是要保護這一些申訴者這個我當然贊成因為他們是受害者他們今天好不容易鼓起勇氣出來檢舉了但是他為什麼要出來檢舉因為忍無可忍而檢舉之後他要的是一個什麼是一個公平正義是希望衛福部還他一個公道\n\n03:39.120 --> 03:53.027\n讓他以後可以安心在這個職場不要受到長官不當的要求跟對待甚至是霸凌所以如果你的調查報告沒有還給當事人一個應有的公道的話以後會造成什麼?寒產效應\n\n03:54.528 --> 04:09.344\n就是申訴了也沒有用啊今天花那麼大的力氣輿論討論這麼久結果我去申訴了這當中這五案我特別關切的是這五案為什麼不成立坦白講申訴要很大的勇氣\n\n04:10.385 --> 04:30.478\n但是如果用這麼大的勇氣然後也訪談了然後也講了結果最後你就告訴當事人說不成立你知道那個會有多挫折過去我也在地方服務過我處理過這個性騷擾相關的案件你知道那個有的當事人當他被宣告他性騷擾不成立的時候他憂鬱症的開始\n\n04:33.320 --> 04:58.626\n因為他覺得我都這麼鼓起勇氣跟你政府單位申訴結果調查人調查完之後說不成立簡簡單單說不成立三個字他就要痛苦一輩子所以我要提醒部長的事提醒次長的事我們是應該要站在這一些申訴者這一方當今天他是長期的被欺壓跟壓迫之後才反映出這個事情的時候我贊成你剛剛講的勿往勿縱\n\n05:00.626 --> 05:23.382\n但是請你更站在一個每一個鼓起勇氣已經要跟你們投訴的這些人的立場想一想他今天是鼓起多大的勇氣才敢講這件事就像你們剛剛說你們是要保護他這個我贊成因為他是鼓起很大的勇氣但如果你的結果是讓他極度失望的話你要知道那個後座力有多強沒有憂鬱症的可能會變有憂鬱症\n\n05:27.045 --> 05:45.444\n因為他覺得無望了他都花那麼大的力氣去爭取了結果是被打回票請問兩位你們有掌握這五案不成立的理由你們覺得真的是充分嗎這些調查委員的調查真的夠仔細嗎我要你們特別關注的是不成案的這五個案子你們每一個都有仔細的了解嗎\n\n05:51.057 --> 06:16.560\n總召還有報告委員我想分兩點來說明報告委員其實我之前我在台中也當過社會局長您剛剛所說的像性侵害、性騷擾等等這些基本上也是我的業務範圍相關的這個報告其實就像您所說的其實如果沒有成立的話對於這個提起的人就基本上這事實上都是另外一個打擊所以我們確實也都是抱持同樣的心情\n\n06:17.280 --> 06:32.026\n同時也要利用這個機會就是要還給被相對的人一個應有的公道來建立我們的這個資產環境這是第一個重點第二個重點我跟委員報告就是說我們剛剛也已經有一個決議就是說我們到時候會將報告\n\n06:34.887 --> 07:03.035\n帶到委員的辦公室讓委員來親自審閱那我想這個部分等到看完之後其實這裡面其實都有這一個調查委員在整個過程裡面他的調查還有就是說為什麼不成立了一個相關的一個理由這個其實報告報告書裡面也都有一個非常具體的市長我要問你的是你作為召集人你都認同嗎這五個案子你有仔細的去了解過嗎報告委員這五個案子我都有我都有詳細的詳細的去了解我可以作證我也可以保證\n\n07:03.735 --> 07:19.347\n所以你可以背書說這五個案子沒有冤枉不是霸凌案沒錯你會背書我會背書好那我們就等著看你們的這個內容是什麼因為我真的要提醒你們天秤的兩端不要傾斜是的當然那這一些\n\n07:20.588 --> 07:43.954\n今天會站出來的我覺得他是因為他受到了冤屈也受到了壓迫他才會站出來沒錯所以我們的調查過程一定是要非常的公平那最後一個問題就是說有關於時間的部分因為我們調查人數非常眾多那還有時間也非常非常緊我們必須要在這個社會的期待所以到底有沒有調查完整有報告委員我們調查完整我跟委員報告離職的轉調的都有約訪嗎\n\n07:48.135 --> 07:48.815\n短調的呢?\n\n08:08.465 --> 08:21.588\n符合真相沒有掩蓋也沒有偏袒這樣的一個調查報告才能讓大家信服所以你們後續提供這個完整調查報告我們會仔細再來看另外一個你們這一次的霸凌案的處置不如勞動部的2.0版你們看起來你們那個標準其實是不一致的在勞動部裡面強迫跑步是霸凌你們強迫深蹲間報告不是霸凌\n\n08:37.672 --> 08:42.241\n然後用言語去叫人家親生的這個這個只有深屆兩隻那長照的這個強迫運動的是小過一隻我就不知道你們這個懲戒的標準是什麼\n\n08:52.997 --> 09:03.905\n你們最終做出這個懲戒是由什麼樣的單位做出來的?是人事單位嗎?不是,報告委員,其實誠如我剛剛所說就是說我們在這裡面這也是調查委員?不可能吧?報告委員,這就是調查委員你調查委員有是熟悉公務體系啊?你不是說是專家學者嗎?外部的專家學者怎麼來告訴你,你那個懲處的那個範圍?報告委員,我們在這裡面所以要你們自己有意見啊?\n\n09:18.095 --> 09:28.947\n這個委員他們基本上整個調查程序裡面都有按照他的所收集的主客觀的資料還有訪談的資料之後然後做出一個整個做出一個裁決﹖稱處怎麼會是委員來建議呢?\n\n09:32.811 --> 09:39.579\n他們是調查報告出來之後然後經過兩道程序第一個就是由我親自主持跟所有專家這邊我們經過詳細的討論之後然後做出了一個整個這一個相關的決議這是第一個重點第二個決議完之後還要送我們的安全防護衛生小組來做審議\n\n09:51.874 --> 10:08.070\n要記小過要記深切要不要大過要不要降調這個怎麼會是屬於外部專家委員的職權他們是建議完之後經過我剛剛說的安全衛生小組最後考機會那你們沒有看到你們這一個懲處的標準是不一嗎因為它的情節輕重不一啊\n\n10:09.335 --> 10:13.297\n所以你說教人家輕聲的這一種言語的不當是比較輕的然後深蹲是比較重的我們經過調查裡面已經有說就是說這一個他所謂的所謂的所謂的輕聲等等是指\n\n10:25.984 --> 10:44.139\n市長有我提醒你齁如果言語會去霸凌別人的人這個是有他性格上面的問題不會是只有一次也不會是單一事件而剛剛已經有委員具體的指出來在他擔任組長期間\n\n10:46.229 --> 11:06.781\n也有同樣的一個情況那會不會所以我就懷疑你們問的對象到底是誰嗎如果說他只是突然冒出口一個人不會這樣子他不會突然蹦出這樣的話那麼嚴厲的叫人家輕聲這樣的話那是跟他原來的性格某一個部分是有關係的所以你們真的是有鉅細靡遺的去訪談嗎就像我們看到勞動部的謝義勇\n\n11:12.671 --> 11:39.957\n他就是藏起來就是這個樣子啊他不會突然這樣直接講一句話去霸凌別人沒有這件事情他大概他的風格就會是這個樣子所以謝用一開始也說無姓員工跟他完全沒有關係他說完全沒有關係還要請律師發聲明稿結果勞動部第二次部長下令要嚴審調查之後翻轉了而且是大逆轉有關因為是從工作上面的壓迫一直下來的\n\n11:42.113 --> 12:08.287\n所以我要提醒部長跟次長就是說在處理這件事情你們一定是要放開你心中的包袱一定當然我知道衛福部裡面很多一級主管大家都很辛苦這是一回事但是如果他在過程當中他有不當的管理壓迫甚至是霸凌然後讓底下的員工更辛苦這他就不適合這個主管他也不適合主管是要帶領的\n\n12:09.187 --> 12:32.497\n不是去壓迫下面的員工的所以你這個一定是要切割開來處理但是我看到你們現在的懲處內容你們就沒有一致的標準你們的輕重坦白講是沒有一致的標準跟勞動部的比起來你們是比較輕你們是輕輕放下這個我不知道是什麼樣的原因但是我覺得應該要處理最後我提醒不只是你們公部門的這個霸凌\n\n12:34.298 --> 12:42.944\n還有醫院的霸凌也層出不窮我具體一個建議醫院的這個部分也是一定要處理醫護人員其實也都是非常辛苦這個他們醫師公會已經這個要求就是霸凌的申訴機制要納為這個評鑑的項目部長你應該表態這件事情你贊成還是反對我同意同意同意同意嗎好\n\n12:56.534 --> 13:19.699\n那我希望這個醫院的體制裡面也不應該有這樣的一個情況之前我們看到有護理師遭到霸凌自殘這個也是不應該發生的事情所以未來應該建立一個機制然後讓我們的醫護人員都在一個健康的環境不被霸凌欺壓的環境可以安心的這個為國人的健康來努力好不好一定一定朝這個方面全力來努力好謝謝謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.209,"end":17.408,"text":"歡迎委員質詢好,謝謝主席。我們是不是有請部長?委員好"},{"start":18.123,"end":37.88,"text":"部長好,剛剛這個提案討論的時候大家花了很多時間在討論你們今天提出的這份報告主要是你們精簡的太厲害了你們剛剛說你們有幾十頁的報告結果今天送出來的就是六頁那這六頁當中其實都看不出這個過程"},{"start":39.201,"end":56.542,"text":"也看不了事實只有你們的結論所以當然外界對於這樣的一份報告就是高度的存疑不知道你們到底是怎麼去調查的嗎我現在以下就要問你們你們這整個的調查過程第一件事情"},{"start":57.623,"end":86.019,"text":"你們總共請了四位外部委員但是你要調查八個案子請問你們每一個案子花多少時間去訪談每一個人員訪談的時間有多久來請回答好我請那個周基仁處長處長誰要回答這邊跟那個委員報告願意受訪的同仁每個人至少15分鐘"},{"start":88.297,"end":115.919,"text":"才15分鐘至少15分鐘至少15分鐘有幾位平均每個人下來都有10個人次因為8個案子吧96人還是人次人人次所以總共訪談幾位總共訪談96位96位這不是人次嗎對96人嘛對一個人15分鐘至少15分鐘那最多呢"},{"start":117.492,"end":132.027,"text":"最多不好意思因為我最多其實我們都盡量讓他們講啦應該是大概15到30分鐘啦而且還有"},{"start":135.174,"end":145.656,"text":"委員是不是允許我先這樣做那個報告到時候到您那個辦公室的時候都會都會有一些相關的資料給您看謝謝我會問這個問題就是我要知道衛福部是不是認真確實的調查因為調查的過程非常的重要從今天六月的報告大家都看不到到底發生什麼事情所以那個調查的過程"},{"start":161.5,"end":187.58,"text":"你有沒有足夠的時間去做讓這個當事人可以做足夠的反應其實這個是非常的關鍵所以因為這個報告大家都看不到事實所以大家才會有這麼多的一個疑問另外一個是你八案當中只有三案成立五案沒有成立報告當中也沒有去宰明不成立的原因為何所以你這份報告坦白講簡化成這樣子難怪委員這麼不滿意啊"},{"start":191.503,"end":196.126,"text":"因為打不殺殺看到你這個只有懲處但根本發生什麼事情大家還是完全得不到資訊啊那你們剛剛說是要保護這一些申訴者這個我當然贊成因為他們是受害者他們今天好不容易鼓起勇氣出來檢舉了但是他為什麼要出來檢舉因為忍無可忍而檢舉之後他要的是一個什麼是一個公平正義是希望衛福部還他一個公道"},{"start":219.12,"end":233.027,"text":"讓他以後可以安心在這個職場不要受到長官不當的要求跟對待甚至是霸凌所以如果你的調查報告沒有還給當事人一個應有的公道的話以後會造成什麼?寒產效應"},{"start":234.528,"end":249.344,"text":"就是申訴了也沒有用啊今天花那麼大的力氣輿論討論這麼久結果我去申訴了這當中這五案我特別關切的是這五案為什麼不成立坦白講申訴要很大的勇氣"},{"start":250.385,"end":270.478,"text":"但是如果用這麼大的勇氣然後也訪談了然後也講了結果最後你就告訴當事人說不成立你知道那個會有多挫折過去我也在地方服務過我處理過這個性騷擾相關的案件你知道那個有的當事人當他被宣告他性騷擾不成立的時候他憂鬱症的開始"},{"start":273.32,"end":298.626,"text":"因為他覺得我都這麼鼓起勇氣跟你政府單位申訴結果調查人調查完之後說不成立簡簡單單說不成立三個字他就要痛苦一輩子所以我要提醒部長的事提醒次長的事我們是應該要站在這一些申訴者這一方當今天他是長期的被欺壓跟壓迫之後才反映出這個事情的時候我贊成你剛剛講的勿往勿縱"},{"start":300.626,"end":323.382,"text":"但是請你更站在一個每一個鼓起勇氣已經要跟你們投訴的這些人的立場想一想他今天是鼓起多大的勇氣才敢講這件事就像你們剛剛說你們是要保護他這個我贊成因為他是鼓起很大的勇氣但如果你的結果是讓他極度失望的話你要知道那個後座力有多強沒有憂鬱症的可能會變有憂鬱症"},{"start":327.045,"end":345.444,"text":"因為他覺得無望了他都花那麼大的力氣去爭取了結果是被打回票請問兩位你們有掌握這五案不成立的理由你們覺得真的是充分嗎這些調查委員的調查真的夠仔細嗎我要你們特別關注的是不成案的這五個案子你們每一個都有仔細的了解嗎"},{"start":351.057,"end":376.56,"text":"總召還有報告委員我想分兩點來說明報告委員其實我之前我在台中也當過社會局長您剛剛所說的像性侵害、性騷擾等等這些基本上也是我的業務範圍相關的這個報告其實就像您所說的其實如果沒有成立的話對於這個提起的人就基本上這事實上都是另外一個打擊所以我們確實也都是抱持同樣的心情"},{"start":377.28,"end":392.026,"text":"同時也要利用這個機會就是要還給被相對的人一個應有的公道來建立我們的這個資產環境這是第一個重點第二個重點我跟委員報告就是說我們剛剛也已經有一個決議就是說我們到時候會將報告"},{"start":394.887,"end":423.035,"text":"帶到委員的辦公室讓委員來親自審閱那我想這個部分等到看完之後其實這裡面其實都有這一個調查委員在整個過程裡面他的調查還有就是說為什麼不成立了一個相關的一個理由這個其實報告報告書裡面也都有一個非常具體的市長我要問你的是你作為召集人你都認同嗎這五個案子你有仔細的去了解過嗎報告委員這五個案子我都有我都有詳細的詳細的去了解我可以作證我也可以保證"},{"start":423.735,"end":439.347,"text":"所以你可以背書說這五個案子沒有冤枉不是霸凌案沒錯你會背書我會背書好那我們就等著看你們的這個內容是什麼因為我真的要提醒你們天秤的兩端不要傾斜是的當然那這一些"},{"start":440.588,"end":463.954,"text":"今天會站出來的我覺得他是因為他受到了冤屈也受到了壓迫他才會站出來沒錯所以我們的調查過程一定是要非常的公平那最後一個問題就是說有關於時間的部分因為我們調查人數非常眾多那還有時間也非常非常緊我們必須要在這個社會的期待所以到底有沒有調查完整有報告委員我們調查完整我跟委員報告離職的轉調的都有約訪嗎"},{"start":468.135,"end":468.815,"text":"短調的呢?"},{"start":488.465,"end":501.588,"text":"符合真相沒有掩蓋也沒有偏袒這樣的一個調查報告才能讓大家信服所以你們後續提供這個完整調查報告我們會仔細再來看另外一個你們這一次的霸凌案的處置不如勞動部的2.0版你們看起來你們那個標準其實是不一致的在勞動部裡面強迫跑步是霸凌你們強迫深蹲間報告不是霸凌"},{"start":517.672,"end":522.241,"text":"然後用言語去叫人家親生的這個這個只有深屆兩隻那長照的這個強迫運動的是小過一隻我就不知道你們這個懲戒的標準是什麼"},{"start":532.997,"end":543.905,"text":"你們最終做出這個懲戒是由什麼樣的單位做出來的?是人事單位嗎?不是,報告委員,其實誠如我剛剛所說就是說我們在這裡面這也是調查委員?不可能吧?報告委員,這就是調查委員你調查委員有是熟悉公務體系啊?你不是說是專家學者嗎?外部的專家學者怎麼來告訴你,你那個懲處的那個範圍?報告委員,我們在這裡面所以要你們自己有意見啊?"},{"start":558.095,"end":568.947,"text":"這個委員他們基本上整個調查程序裡面都有按照他的所收集的主客觀的資料還有訪談的資料之後然後做出一個整個做出一個裁決﹖稱處怎麼會是委員來建議呢?"},{"start":572.811,"end":579.579,"text":"他們是調查報告出來之後然後經過兩道程序第一個就是由我親自主持跟所有專家這邊我們經過詳細的討論之後然後做出了一個整個這一個相關的決議這是第一個重點第二個決議完之後還要送我們的安全防護衛生小組來做審議"},{"start":591.874,"end":608.07,"text":"要記小過要記深切要不要大過要不要降調這個怎麼會是屬於外部專家委員的職權他們是建議完之後經過我剛剛說的安全衛生小組最後考機會那你們沒有看到你們這一個懲處的標準是不一嗎因為它的情節輕重不一啊"},{"start":609.335,"end":613.297,"text":"所以你說教人家輕聲的這一種言語的不當是比較輕的然後深蹲是比較重的我們經過調查裡面已經有說就是說這一個他所謂的所謂的所謂的輕聲等等是指"},{"start":625.984,"end":644.139,"text":"市長有我提醒你齁如果言語會去霸凌別人的人這個是有他性格上面的問題不會是只有一次也不會是單一事件而剛剛已經有委員具體的指出來在他擔任組長期間"},{"start":646.229,"end":666.781,"text":"也有同樣的一個情況那會不會所以我就懷疑你們問的對象到底是誰嗎如果說他只是突然冒出口一個人不會這樣子他不會突然蹦出這樣的話那麼嚴厲的叫人家輕聲這樣的話那是跟他原來的性格某一個部分是有關係的所以你們真的是有鉅細靡遺的去訪談嗎就像我們看到勞動部的謝義勇"},{"start":672.671,"end":699.957,"text":"他就是藏起來就是這個樣子啊他不會突然這樣直接講一句話去霸凌別人沒有這件事情他大概他的風格就會是這個樣子所以謝用一開始也說無姓員工跟他完全沒有關係他說完全沒有關係還要請律師發聲明稿結果勞動部第二次部長下令要嚴審調查之後翻轉了而且是大逆轉有關因為是從工作上面的壓迫一直下來的"},{"start":702.113,"end":728.287,"text":"所以我要提醒部長跟次長就是說在處理這件事情你們一定是要放開你心中的包袱一定當然我知道衛福部裡面很多一級主管大家都很辛苦這是一回事但是如果他在過程當中他有不當的管理壓迫甚至是霸凌然後讓底下的員工更辛苦這他就不適合這個主管他也不適合主管是要帶領的"},{"start":729.187,"end":752.497,"text":"不是去壓迫下面的員工的所以你這個一定是要切割開來處理但是我看到你們現在的懲處內容你們就沒有一致的標準你們的輕重坦白講是沒有一致的標準跟勞動部的比起來你們是比較輕你們是輕輕放下這個我不知道是什麼樣的原因但是我覺得應該要處理最後我提醒不只是你們公部門的這個霸凌"},{"start":754.298,"end":762.944,"text":"還有醫院的霸凌也層出不窮我具體一個建議醫院的這個部分也是一定要處理醫護人員其實也都是非常辛苦這個他們醫師公會已經這個要求就是霸凌的申訴機制要納為這個評鑑的項目部長你應該表態這件事情你贊成還是反對我同意同意同意同意嗎好"},{"start":776.534,"end":799.699,"text":"那我希望這個醫院的體制裡面也不應該有這樣的一個情況之前我們看到有護理師遭到霸凌自殘這個也是不應該發生的事情所以未來應該建立一個機制然後讓我們的醫護人員都在一個健康的環境不被霸凌欺壓的環境可以安心的這個為國人的健康來努力好不好一定一定朝這個方面全力來努力好謝謝謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1763,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（13時10分）謝謝主席，是不是有請部長？"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，剛剛提案討論的時候，大家花了很多時間在討論你們今天提出的這份報告，主要是你們精簡得太厲害了，你們剛剛說有幾十頁的報告，結果今天送出來的就是6頁，這6頁當中，其實都看不出過程，也看不到事實，只有你們的結論，當然外界對於這一份報告就會高度存疑，不知道你們到底是怎麼去調查的嘛！以下就要問你們在整個調查過程，第一件事情，你們總共請了4位外部委員，但是你要調查8個案子，請問你們每一個案子花多少時間去訪談？每一個人員訪談的時間有多久？請回答。"],["邱部長泰源：我請召集人或處長……"],["王委員育敏：誰要回答？人事室處長？"],["李處長玉惠：跟各個委員報告，願意受訪的同仁，每個人至少15分鐘，這是第一。第二……"],["王委員育敏：才15分鐘？"],["李處長玉惠：至少15分鐘。"],["王委員育敏：有幾位？"],["李處長玉惠：平均每一案下來，都有十個人次，因為8個案子嘛！96……"],["王委員育敏：人還是人次？"],["李處長玉惠：人次。"],["王委員育敏：所以總共訪談幾位？"],["李處長玉惠：總共訪談96位。"],["王委員育敏：96位，這不是人次嘛！96人嘛！"],["李處長玉惠：對！然後……"],["王委員育敏：每一個人15分鐘？"],["李處長玉惠：至少15分鐘。"],["王委員育敏：那最多呢？"],["李處長玉惠：不好意思，因為我……其實我們都儘量讓他們講啦！應該大概是15到30分鐘，而且還有……委員，是不是允許我先這樣做報告，到時候到您辦公室都會有一些相關的資料給您看，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：我會問這個問題，就是我要知道衛福部是不是認真、確實地調查，因為調查的過程非常重要，從今天6頁的報告中，大家都看不到到底發生什麼事情，所以調查的過程有沒有足夠的時間，讓當事人可以做足夠的反映，其實這是非常地關鍵，因為這份報告大家都看不到事實，所以大家才會有這麼多的疑問。另外一個是8案當中，只有3案成立，5案沒有成立，報告當中也沒有去載明不成立的原因為何，坦白講，這一份報告簡化成這樣子，難怪委員不滿意啊！因為大家「霧煞煞」，看到你只有懲處，但發生什麼事情，大家還是完全得不到資訊；你們剛剛說是要保護這一些申訴者，這個我當然贊成，因為他們是受害者，他們今天好不容易鼓起勇氣出來檢舉了，但是他為什麼要出來檢舉？因為忍無可忍，而檢舉之後，他要的是一個什麼？是一個公平正義、是希望衛福部還他一個公道，讓他以後可以安心在這個職場，不要受到長官不當的要求跟對待，甚至是霸凌，如果你的調查報告沒有還給當事人一個應有的公道，以後會造成什麼？寒蟬效應，即申訴了也沒有用啊！今天花那麼大的力氣、輿論討論這麼久，結果我去申訴了，這5案當中，我特別關切的是這5案為什麼不成立？坦白講，申訴要很大的勇氣，但是如果用這麼大的勇氣，也訪談了、也講了，結果最後你就告訴當事人不成立，你知道那個會有多挫折。","過去我也在地方服務過，我處理過性騷擾相關的案件，你知道有的當事人，當他被宣告性騷擾案不成立的時候，是他憂鬱症的開始，因為他覺得他都鼓起勇氣跟政府單位申訴，結果調查委員調查完之後，簡簡單單說「不成立」三個字，他就要痛苦一輩子。所以我要提醒部長、提醒次長，我們應該要站在申訴者這一方，當今天他是長期的被欺壓跟壓迫之後，才反映這件事情的時候，我贊成你剛剛講得勿枉勿縱，但是請你更要站在每一個鼓起勇氣、已經要跟你們投訴的這些人的立場想一想，他今天是鼓起多大勇氣才敢講這件事，就像你們剛剛說你們是要保護他，這個我贊成，因為他是鼓起很大的勇氣，但如果你的結果是讓他極度失望的話，你要知道那個後座力有多強，沒有憂鬱症的可能會變有憂鬱症，因為他覺得無望了，他都花那麼大的力氣去爭取了，結果是被打回票。請問兩位，你們有掌握這5案不成立的理由，你們覺得真的是充分嗎？這些調查委員的調查真的夠仔細嗎？我要你們特別關注的是不成案的5個案子，你們每一案都有仔細地瞭解嗎？"],["呂次長建德：總召還有報告委員，我想分兩點來說明。其實之前我在臺中也當過社會局長，您剛剛所說的，像性侵害、性騷擾等等這些，基本上也是我的業務範圍，相關的報告就像您所說的，如果沒有成立的話，對於提起的人，事實上都是另外一個打擊。"],["王委員育敏：是。"],["呂次長建德：我們確實也都是抱持同樣的心情，同時也要利用這個機會，就是要還給被相對的人一個應有的公道，來建立我們的職場環境，這是第一個重點。第二個重點，我跟委員報告，剛剛也已經有一個決議，到時候我們會將報告帶到委員的辦公室，讓委員來親自審閱，我想這個部分，等到看完之後，調查委員在整個過程裡面，他的調查還有為什麼不成立的相關理由，調查報告書裡面也都有非常具體的呈現。"],["王委員育敏：次長，我要問你的是作為召集人，你都認同嗎？這5個案子，你有仔細地去瞭解過嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我都有詳細地去瞭解這5個案子，我可以作證，我也可以保證。"],["王委員育敏：所以你可以背書說，這5個案子沒有冤枉、不是霸凌案？"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["王委員育敏：你會背書？"],["呂次長建德：我會背書。"],["王委員育敏：好，那我們就等著看你們的內容是什麼。"],["呂次長建德：好的。"],["王委員育敏：因為我真的要提醒你們，天秤的兩端不要傾斜了。"],["呂次長建德：是的，當然。"],["王委員育敏：今天會站出來的這些人，我覺得是因為他受到了冤屈，也受到了壓迫，他才會站出來。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯、沒錯。"],["王委員育敏：所以你們的調查過程一定要非常地公平。"],["呂次長建德：是。委員，最後一個問題就是有關於時間的部分，因為我們調查人數非常眾多，還有時間必須非常緊，我們必須要在社會期待……"],["王委員育敏：所以到底有沒有調查完整啊？"],["呂次長建德：有！報告委員，我們調查完整，我跟委員報告，我們甚至連……"],["王委員育敏：離職的、轉調的都有約訪嗎？"],["呂次長建德：離職的部分有，還有因為……"],["王委員育敏：轉調的呢？"],["呂次長建德：有。還有另外一個就是，我們時間甚至已經利用到晚上還有假日，我們也都請委員、拜託委員他們前來，所以真的是每分每秒，我們都善用、極大化他的時間。"],["王委員育敏：好。我要求的就是一定要符合真相，沒有掩蓋，也沒有偏袒，這樣的調查報告才能讓大家信服，所以你們後續提供這份完整的調查報告，我們會仔細再來看。"],["呂次長建德：好的，感謝委員。"],["王委員育敏：另外一個，你們這一次霸凌案的處置，不如勞動部2.0版，看起來你們的標準其實是不一致的，在勞動部裡面強迫跑步是霸凌，你們強迫深蹲兼報告不是霸凌，用言語去叫人家輕生的這個，只有申誡兩支，長照司強迫運動的這個是小過一支，我就不知道你們懲戒的標準是什麼？你們最終做出的這個懲戒是由什麼單位做出來的？是人事單位嗎？"],["呂次長建德：不是，報告委員，其實誠如剛剛我所說的，我們在這裡面……"],["王委員育敏：這也是調查委員？"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["王委員育敏：不可能吧？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，這就是調查委員。"],["王委員育敏：調查委員有熟悉公務體系的，你不是說他們是專家學者嗎？外部的專家學者要怎麼告訴你們那個懲處範圍？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們在這裡面……"],["王委員育敏：這個你們要有自己的意見。"],["呂次長建德：不，基本上，整個調查程序都有按照它所蒐集的主客觀資訊和訪談的資料，之後再做出裁決。"],["王委員育敏：懲處怎麼會是委員來建議呢？"],["呂次長建德：對，他們是調查報告書出來之後，然後再經過兩道程序，第一個是由我親自主持，我們跟學者專家經過詳細的討論後，然後再做出相關的決議，這是第一個重點。第二個，決議完之後，還要送我們安全防護衛生小組來做審議，最後審議……"],["王委員育敏：要記小過或申誡？要不要記大過？要不要降調？這個怎麼會是屬於外部專家委員的職權？"],["呂次長建德：對，他們是建議，他們建議完之後，經過我剛才說的安全防護衛生小組，最後是考績會。"],["王委員育敏：那你們沒有看到你們這個懲處標準是不一的嗎？"],["呂次長建德：對，因為他的情節輕重不一。"],["王委員育敏：所以你是說，讓人家輕生的這種不當言語是比較輕的？然後深蹲是比較重的？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，經過我們的調查，所謂的「輕生」等等這些是指，當時他在指導同仁，你在做整個相關業務時，你必須要先自己處理。"],["王委員育敏：次長，容我提醒你，會用言語霸凌別人的人，這是有他性格上的問題，這不會只有一次，也不會是單一事件，而且剛剛已經有委員具體的指出來，在他擔任組長的期間也有同樣的情況，所以我才會懷疑你們問的對象到底是誰，如果說他只是突然冒出口，但是一個人不會突然蹦出那麼嚴厲叫人家輕生的話，這跟他原來的某一個性格是有關係的，所以你們真的有鉅細靡遺地去訪談嗎？就像勞動部的謝宜容，他長期以來就是這個樣子，他不會突然只講一句話去霸凌別人，沒有這件事情，他的風格就是這個樣子，所以謝宜容一開始也說吳姓員工跟他完全沒有關係，他還有請律師發聲明稿，結果勞動部第二次的調查，部長下令要嚴審調查之後，結果反轉了，而且是大逆轉，是有關的，因為這是從工作上的壓迫延續下來的，所以我要提醒部長跟次長，你們在處理這件事情時，你們一定要放開你們心中的包袱。"],["呂次長建德：一定，當然。"],["王委員育敏：我知道衛福部裡面有很多的一級主管大家都很辛苦，但這是一回事，如果他在過程中有不當的管理、壓迫，甚至是霸凌，然後讓底下的員工更辛苦，那他就不適合擔任這個主管，主管是要帶領員工，而不是壓迫下面的員工。"],["呂次長建德：我完全同意，我完全同意委員的說法。"],["王委員育敏：所以這個一定要切割開來處理，但是我看到你們現在的懲處內容，你們就是沒有一致的標準。坦白講，你們就是沒有一致的標準，跟勞動部比起來，你們是比較輕，你們是輕輕放下，我不知道這個原因是什麼，但是我覺得應該要處理。","最後，我提醒，不只是你們公部門的霸凌，還有醫院的霸凌也層出不窮，我要具體的建議，醫院這個部分也一定要處理，其實醫護人員也非常辛苦。醫師公會已經要求，霸凌的申訴機制要納入評鑑的項目，部長，你應該要表態，這件事情你贊成？還是反對？"],["邱部長泰源：我同意。"],["王委員育敏：同意，好，我希望醫院這個體制也不應該有這個情況，之前我們也看到有護理師遭到霸凌而自殘，這也是不應該發生的事情，所以未來應該要建立一個機制，讓我們的醫護人員可以在一個健康的環境，不被霸凌、欺壓的環境裡，安心為國人的健康來努力，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：是，我們一定會朝這個方向全力來努力。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員和部長。","接下來請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-14","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","王育敏","陳瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","盧縣一","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","邱鎮軍","涂權吉"],"page_start":143,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140602_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請衛生福利部部長、考試院、行\n政院人事行政總處針對「所屬機關有關霸凌事件之調查檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1140602_00002"}}}