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667.404, \"text\": \"下一題,對不起,主持我想問部長。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 666.844, \"end\": 666.904, \"score\": 0.664}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 666.904, \"end\": 667.004, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 667.004, \"end\": 667.104, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 667.104, \"end\": 667.124, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 667.124, \"end\": 667.164, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 667.164, \"end\": 667.284, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 667.284, \"end\": 667.364, \"score\": 0.583}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 667.364, \"end\": 667.384, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 667.384, \"end\": 667.404, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}]}, {\"start\": 696.26, \"end\": 723.842, \"text\": 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{\"word\": \"吧\", \"start\": 721.3, \"end\": 722.42, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"醫\"}, {\"word\": \"療\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 722.42, \"end\": 722.541, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 722.541, \"end\": 722.661, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 722.661, \"end\": 722.801, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 722.801, \"end\": 723.261, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 723.261, \"end\": 723.401, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 723.401, \"end\": 723.581, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 723.581, \"end\": 723.681, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 723.681, \"end\": 723.822, \"score\": 0.742}, {\"word\": \"錯\"}, {\"word\": \"吧\", \"start\": 723.822, \"end\": 723.842, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 725.631, \"end\": 728.753, \"text\": \"我聽完這些受害者的故事真的有人聯絡我了還有一些不是在新聞裡面的人\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 725.631, \"end\": 725.712, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 725.712, \"end\": 725.812, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 725.812, \"end\": 725.872, \"score\": 0.649}, {\"word\": \"受\", \"start\": 725.872, \"end\": 726.032, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"害\", \"start\": 726.032, \"end\": 726.092, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 726.092, \"end\": 726.112, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 726.112, \"end\": 726.132, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"故\", \"start\": 726.132, \"end\": 726.212, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 726.212, \"end\": 726.252, \"score\": 0.497}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 726.252, \"end\": 726.352, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 726.352, \"end\": 726.372, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 726.372, \"end\": 726.392, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 726.392, \"end\": 726.452, \"score\": 0.613}, {\"word\": \"聯\"}, {\"word\": \"絡\"}, {\"word\": 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\"請問我們全國醫師最高指導單位會務部長不用做什麼嗎?你有沒有什麼具體可以為他們做的?好,我們就是依規定在辦理嘛。如果醫師有涉及到相關的這些性騷擾相關事件,僱主就會依要性憑三法來規定。這個台大也有在進行。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 753.193, \"end\": 753.533, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 753.533, \"end\": 754.634, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"醫\"}, {\"word\": \"師\"}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 754.634, \"end\": 754.794, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 754.794, \"end\": 755.014, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 755.014, \"end\": 755.435, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"導\"}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 755.435, \"end\": 755.975, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 755.975, \"end\": 757.677, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 757.677, \"end\": 757.777, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 757.777, \"end\": 757.897, \"score\": 0.831}, 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762.921, \"end\": 763.862, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"醫\"}, {\"word\": \"師\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 763.862, \"end\": 764.002, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"涉\", \"start\": 764.002, \"end\": 764.202, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 764.202, \"end\": 764.302, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 764.302, \"end\": 764.943, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 764.943, \"end\": 765.303, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 765.303, \"end\": 765.864, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 765.864, \"end\": 766.064, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 766.064, \"end\": 766.484, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"騷\"}, {\"word\": \"擾\"}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 766.484, \"end\": 766.804, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 766.804, \"end\": 766.924, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 766.924, \"end\": 767.845, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"僱\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 767.845, \"end\": 768.566, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 768.566, \"end\": 768.806, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"依\", \"start\": 768.806, \"end\": 769.387, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 769.387, \"end\": 769.767, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 769.767, \"end\": 770.508, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"憑\"}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 770.508, \"end\": 770.748, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 770.748, \"end\": 772.189, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 772.189, \"end\": 772.769, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 772.769, \"end\": 772.91, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 772.91, \"end\": 773.41, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 773.41, \"end\": 773.43, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 773.43, \"end\": 773.59, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 773.59, \"end\": 773.73, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 773.73, \"end\": 773.75, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}]}, {\"start\": 775.271, \"end\": 800.626, \"text\": \"所以好像已經離職了那如果有司法或者是他看他的情節如果有司法機關來追溯他的刑事責任那如果是利用業務機會犯罪行為且經判刑確定沒關係部長部長你剛剛講的這個議事法裡面其實有一個不管是工會或者是主管機關都可以做出行動那請問衛福部到底算不算主管機關嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 775.271, \"end\": 775.412, \"score\": 0.754}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 775.412, \"end\": 775.512, \"score\": 0.475}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 775.512, \"end\": 775.632, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 775.632, \"end\": 775.972, \"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 775.972, \"end\": 777.293, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"離\"}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 777.293, \"end\": 777.313, \"score\": 0.01}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 777.313, \"end\": 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0.806}, {\"word\": \"節\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 782.836, \"end\": 783.236, \"score\": 0.688}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 783.236, \"end\": 783.316, \"score\": 0.581}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 783.316, \"end\": 783.756, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 783.756, \"end\": 783.877, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 783.877, \"end\": 784.377, \"score\": 0.695}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"追\", \"start\": 784.377, \"end\": 784.517, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"溯\", \"start\": 784.517, \"end\": 784.677, \"score\": 0.605}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 784.677, \"end\": 784.817, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 784.817, \"end\": 785.057, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"刑\", \"start\": 785.057, \"end\": 785.237, \"score\": 0.714}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 785.237, \"end\": 785.578, \"score\": 0.741}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 785.578, \"end\": 786.458, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 786.458, \"end\": 786.618, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 786.618, \"end\": 786.758, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 786.758, \"end\": 787.178, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 787.178, \"end\": 787.359, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"利\", \"start\": 787.359, \"end\": 787.459, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 787.459, \"end\": 788.579, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"犯\", \"start\": 788.579, \"end\": 788.799, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"罪\", \"start\": 788.799, \"end\": 788.98, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 788.98, \"end\": 789.34, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"且\", \"start\": 789.34, \"end\": 789.82, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"判\", \"start\": 789.82, \"end\": 790.0, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"刑\", \"start\": 790.0, \"end\": 790.38, 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{\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 794.183, \"end\": 794.363, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 794.363, \"end\": 794.663, \"score\": 0.704}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 794.663, \"end\": 794.783, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 794.783, \"end\": 795.003, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 795.003, \"end\": 795.303, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 795.303, \"end\": 796.224, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 796.224, \"end\": 796.364, \"score\": 0.766}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 796.364, \"end\": 796.484, \"score\": 0.742}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 796.484, \"end\": 796.644, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 796.644, \"end\": 796.824, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 796.824, \"end\": 797.565, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 797.565, \"end\": 797.685, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 797.685, \"end\": 797.785, \"score\": 0.654}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 797.785, \"end\": 797.905, \"score\": 0.66}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 797.905, \"end\": 798.065, \"score\": 0.686}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 798.065, \"end\": 798.265, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 798.265, \"end\": 799.166, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 799.166, \"end\": 799.346, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"衛\"}, {\"word\": \"福\", \"start\": 799.346, \"end\": 799.506, \"score\": 0.685}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 799.506, \"end\": 799.706, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 799.706, \"end\": 799.846, \"score\": 0.625}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 799.846, \"end\": 799.986, \"score\": 0.782}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 799.986, \"end\": 800.206, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 800.206, \"end\": 800.266, \"score\": 0.401}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 800.266, \"end\": 800.466, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 800.466, \"end\": 800.606, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 800.606, \"end\": 800.626, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 803.924, \"end\": 805.226, \"text\": \"主管機關是先由當地的衛生局來移送。那你會去關心嗎?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 803.924, \"end\": 804.024, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 804.024, \"end\": 804.185, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 804.185, \"end\": 804.325, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 804.325, \"end\": 804.746, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 804.746, \"end\": 804.806, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 804.806, \"end\": 804.826, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 804.826, \"end\": 804.846, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"衛\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 804.846, \"end\": 804.906, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"局\", \"start\": 804.906, \"end\": 804.926, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"移\", \"start\": 804.926, \"end\": 804.966, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"送\", \"start\": 804.966, \"end\": 805.046, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 805.046, \"end\": 805.066, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 805.066, \"end\": 805.106, \"score\": 0.529}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 805.106, \"end\": 805.206, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 805.206, \"end\": 805.226, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 816.366, \"end\": 843.371, \"text\": \"這件事情其實是各個縣市政府其實都有那個信憑的委員會會做調查所以是說其實衛福部這邊我要講的是醫事管理後我們是後段調查的結果出來之後我們其實是會做處理後去的處理其實就是以醫事法剛剛部長在講的就是說調查出來之後所以你的醫事法的主管機關你先交給工會還有地方的衛生機關\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 816.366, \"end\": 816.566, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 816.566, \"end\": 816.746, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 816.746, \"end\": 816.966, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 816.966, \"end\": 817.606, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 817.606, \"end\": 817.866, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 817.866, \"end\": 818.526, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"縣\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 818.526, \"end\": 818.726, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 818.726, \"end\": 819.087, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 819.087, \"end\": 819.327, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 819.327, \"end\": 819.607, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 819.607, \"end\": 819.847, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 819.847, \"end\": 820.167, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 820.167, \"end\": 821.367, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 821.367, \"end\": 821.787, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"憑\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 821.787, \"end\": 821.927, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 821.927, \"end\": 822.547, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 822.547, \"end\": 823.007, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 823.007, \"end\": 823.767, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 823.767, \"end\": 823.907, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 823.907, \"end\": 824.007, \"score\": 0.766}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 824.007, \"end\": 824.487, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 824.487, \"end\": 825.328, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"衛\"}, {\"word\": \"福\", \"start\": 825.328, \"end\": 825.448, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 825.448, \"end\": 826.428, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", 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\"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 993.17, \"end\": 993.291, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 993.291, \"end\": 993.812, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 993.812, \"end\": 993.952, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 993.952, \"end\": 994.774, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 994.774, \"end\": 994.894, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"守\", \"start\": 994.894, \"end\": 995.055, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 995.055, \"end\": 996.578, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 996.578, \"end\": 996.899, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 996.899, \"end\": 997.38, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"繼\"}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"追\", \"start\": 997.38, \"end\": 997.54, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 997.54, \"end\": 997.761, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 997.761, \"end\": 997.901, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 997.901, \"end\": 997.961, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 997.961, \"end\": 997.981, \"score\": 0.006}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,629 --> 00:00:14,039\n請陳菁徽委員質詢。那我們在王振旭委員質詢完畢後休息10分鐘。主席各位委員我也想請邱部長。\n\n2\n00:00:18,243 --> 00:00:32,309\n陳副部長,我剛聽了這麼多委員質詢,我有一種濃濃的即視感。大概幾個禮拜以前,何佩珊就是跟你類似一樣的態度跟說法,說這份報告很用心,管理不當。\n\n3\n00:00:33,490 --> 00:00:37,533\n剛剛有講到說健康操的時間你有看到投訴的內容嗎投訴的內容是請他深蹲報告欸你覺得如果賴清德總統叫你深蹲跟他報告你還是覺得賴清德總統管理不當你想看看是不是賴清德總統管理不當\n\n4\n00:00:52,156 --> 00:01:10,673\n他是深蹲要報告欸!這個請理事長...我先跟大家說明一下,那個委員會在報告,那個深蹲他那個不是報告,他那個是說大家各科大家就是邊運動然後大家做一些...邊運動邊開會!邊深蹲邊開會!大家就講一些...\n\n5\n00:01:18,362 --> 00:01:42,932\n其實最主要是大家輪流然後在這裡面也有一些除了身體上面留另外一方面大家也可以分享一些我們的一些其他的事情而且我跟各位報告這真的不是強迫的部長你自己有看過你們那個六頁的報告嗎但是其實內容只有四頁有一頁還是空白頁你自己有看過嗎有的\n\n6\n00:01:44,545 --> 00:01:57,355\n我說部長有有有那部長你講的出來是哪些人被懲處嗎?被懲處的原因是什麼?因為被懲處的人啊現在大家都不認識根本就不是我們質詢問你的人都不是\n\n7\n00:02:00,831 --> 00:02:25,711\n都在懲罰小的、大的全部都放掉了然後你們現在說管理不當記過然後又說深蹲一起開會報告事情不叫霸凌那我問你啊你們這個15分鐘的運動健康操時間是不是共識決?你可以請同仁出來說這個是我們這個部門一起願意每天要一起做這個是共識決嗎?\n\n8\n00:02:27,284 --> 00:02:49,192\n報告委員我想兩個重點第一個就是您剛剛說的其實我們這些我想我們的原則一定是公開透明而且物中但是也物往所以整個這個程序裡面完全都是尊重外部委員他的一個整個獨立的判斷一個專業的判斷其實這個是一個所以他到最後結果是怎麼樣老實說我們真的不能干涉\n\n9\n00:02:50,532 --> 00:03:15,207\n但是我們要尊重專業的一個整個他的這個判斷的一個最後結果我聽懂了部長現在都是外部委員寫的所以我們要尊重外部委員但是部長你也有你的政治責任所以部長你願意為這個報告背書嗎還是你不願意因為是外部委員寫的我們完全尊重我們完全尊重這個所以你們不願意為這份報告背書不是\n\n10\n00:03:16,792 --> 00:03:32,820\n報告委員其實最重要的其實真的我們要尊重這個整個專業上面的一些評斷還有我也跟委員報告我們整個過程裡面其實除了我們有四位的外部委員是獨立的另外第二個就是說我們在這個過程裡面我們有訪談了將近96位的同仁\n\n11\n00:03:34,861 --> 00:03:36,822\n為什麼會有人為什麼會有這麼多人來跟立法委員陳情就是因為你現在講的事情完全不符合人民心中的標準跟邏輯嗎\n\n12\n00:03:58,795 --> 00:04:09,130\n你為什麼不將心比心?如果賴清德總統跟你說你們必須要先親身啊!你等人家來他殺那都一把火啦!你要先親身才可以表示你的誠意啊!\n\n13\n00:04:10,457 --> 00:04:36,334\n你覺得這樣不算職場霸凌嗎?其實很多事情這個都要還原當時的這一個只有講一次要長期是這個意思嗎?當然還有另外一個您剛剛說那個輕生的這些那個是整個在業務在整個公文指導上面我承認這個我也同意這個用詞是真的他可是管理社工的人他是應該要是全國最重視我們心理健康的人\n\n14\n00:04:37,435 --> 00:04:37,455\n拜訪議員\n\n15\n00:04:57,943 --> 00:05:23,275\n報告委員他本來是社保司司長所以你的意思是說哇你們剛剛楊楊撒撒、劉建國委員列出來這些人都是中階的幹部被離職所以霸凌最嚴重的是中階幹部最上面的都是管理不當你覺得大家可以接受你們的新聞稿嗎?各位報告委員其實齁真的我覺得整個這個過程裡面齁我覺得真的要物重\n\n16\n00:05:24,448 --> 00:05:39,197\n但是呢我覺得也不能夠也勿往啦因為這個就是我們整個處理我想那個邱信仁委員剛剛也說嘛就是要勿縱勿往而且過程一定公開透明那整個這個程序\n\n17\n00:05:40,958 --> 00:05:56,050\n沒關係,我們簡單的回答一下,現在你們衛福部下面有做這個健康操的部門有哪些?然後哪些是共識出來的?哪些是司長規定的?很簡單啊,大家只想知道到底這個健康操休憩時間是強迫的還是共識的?還是可參加可不參加?\n\n18\n00:06:01,704 --> 00:06:09,214\n報告委員我覺得這個我也昨天我也前天在跟回應記者的時候我也說我個人認為這個是非常不當的那個行為\n\n19\n00:06:09,983 --> 00:06:19,109\n那你現在取消了嗎?你取消所有衛福部規定要做健康操的單位了嗎?那可以不用參加嗎?你會宣布說可以不用參加嗎?從現在開始?那我們要看到你發布的這個發布給全部衛福部同仁的這個人書\n\n20\n00:06:40,563 --> 00:07:00,694\n我覺得你講這個東西很不符合我們一般人民的標準我問你如果你們在開行政院院會賴清德總統行政院長說欸現在健康上的時間大家自由選擇要不要參加齁\n\n21\n00:07:02,628 --> 00:07:23,839\n您覺得有人敢不跳嗎?報告委員,我必須再一次強調,那個只是那個時間在那邊至於您願不願意,我們當然還是基本上鼓勵是,剛劉建國委員已經講得很清楚了霸凌的形式有哪些,其中也有包括心理的壓力那你一個時間定在那邊,主管都已經在做了\n\n22\n00:07:24,844 --> 00:07:31,846\n你覺得不做的人不會有壓力嗎?所以你們的報告其實意思是說中階主管卻有霸凌的事實但是管理中階主管的這批人只是因為管理不當所以被記小過這是你們報告的意思不是嗎?\n\n23\n00:07:54,551 --> 00:08:13,760\n報告委員,我們所有的,我們說有一分證據說一分話,有一分證據我們就辦一分案。同樣的,我們現在目前的整個這個懲處其實也是,我再一次強調,就是我們的外部的獨立委員,他們在經過相關的量化資料以及……好,那你的報告完全也沒寫出?\n\n24\n00:08:17,041 --> 00:08:45,678\n這個中階主管他們霸凌屬實後來被調職的原因都沒有寫出來這跟所有我們接到的投書的內容都完全不一樣雖然我們已經感受到我們接到投書的內容已經就是霸凌的事實了可是你的報告都沒有寫喔我們現在都不知道喔就是你拿出來祭旗的這批人到底做了什麼事情我們完全不知道我們這個沒有真的完全沒有所謂祭旗不祭旗的事情但是我剛剛說就是說必須Evidencebased\n\n25\n00:08:46,098 --> 00:08:49,079\n這是教育部105年公告的學校訂定教師輔導與管理學生辦法注意事項明訂體罰的樣態以及範圍但是呢您說福利挺身不算是體罰霸凌而是PK我想請教一下這個教育部明訂出來體罰紅框框理念\n\n26\n00:09:12,148 --> 00:09:36,577\n福利挺身是不是不用算在內?以後老師都可以叫學生福利挺身?PK?報告委員我再還原一下正如剛剛部長剛剛有說的嘛只有一次而已22月那一次剛好就有一個新進同仁進來他在那邊說他有做健身那剛好他說有另外一位替代役他也說他會做福利挺身那大家就起哄嘛\n\n27\n00:09:37,979 --> 00:09:45,032\n所以在整個過程影片過程裡面各位那個委員也可以看到所以你覺得大家如果是起哄和樂融融為什麼這個影片還會被傳出來\n\n28\n00:09:49,121 --> 00:09:50,642\n所以未來你們衛福部可以訂一個PK表PK是OK的\n\n29\n00:10:11,081 --> 00:10:38,020\n報告委員因為我們剛剛已經說了我們不會我們會提供這一個健康操時間但是用什麼形式這基本上完全尊重同仁所以這個基本上就不涉及要不要定那些我覺得還是要就是部長也常常跟我們講我們將心我們站在這個同仁的立場我們就是要給同仁一個最好的一個整個有尊嚴的而且最好的資產環境我也跟委員報告剛剛劉建國委員我也要說其實\n\n30\n00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:39,220\n我是具體建議啦,因為很多人\n\n31\n00:11:06,844 --> 00:11:07,404\n下一題,對不起,主持我想問部長。\n\n32\n00:11:36,260 --> 00:12:03,842\n部長我看到這個新聞我是非常難過因為我這幾天其實有一些人嘗試聯繫我我聽完這些故事以後我覺得蠻痛苦的因為同樣身為女生很多醫生希望透過我來發聲說他們看到全國的醫師看到全國的醫師的最大長官叫做衛福部部長管理醫事法的是你沒錯吧醫療法的主管機關也是你沒錯吧\n\n33\n00:12:05,631 --> 00:12:08,753\n我聽完這些受害者的故事真的有人聯絡我了還有一些不是在新聞裡面的人\n\n34\n00:12:33,193 --> 00:12:53,750\n請問我們全國醫師最高指導單位會務部長不用做什麼嗎?你有沒有什麼具體可以為他們做的?好,我們就是依規定在辦理嘛。如果醫師有涉及到相關的這些性騷擾相關事件,僱主就會依要性憑三法來規定。這個台大也有在進行。\n\n35\n00:12:55,271 --> 00:13:20,626\n所以好像已經離職了那如果有司法或者是他看他的情節如果有司法機關來追溯他的刑事責任那如果是利用業務機會犯罪行為且經判刑確定沒關係部長部長你剛剛講的這個議事法裡面其實有一個不管是工會或者是主管機關都可以做出行動那請問衛福部到底算不算主管機關嗎\n\n36\n00:13:23,924 --> 00:13:25,226\n主管機關是先由當地的衛生局來移送。那你會去關心嗎?\n\n37\n00:13:36,366 --> 00:14:03,371\n這件事情其實是各個縣市政府其實都有那個信憑的委員會會做調查所以是說其實衛福部這邊我要講的是醫事管理後我們是後段調查的結果出來之後我們其實是會做處理後去的處理其實就是以醫事法剛剛部長在講的就是說調查出來之後所以你的醫事法的主管機關你先交給工會還有地方的衛生機關\n\n38\n00:14:04,511 --> 00:14:25,901\n沒有。前面有一個各縣市政府的調查委員會。後面在發動的時候才是由剛剛部長講的。那部長你有去關心這件事走到哪裡了嗎?畢竟說不定裡面有一些人也是你認識的。受害者。我們目前只有初步的了解就是臺大醫院的部分其實是臺灣大學這邊在做調查以上。\n\n39\n00:14:29,517 --> 00:14:35,803\n因為你是這個性殺老防治法的主責機關我會想問說保護司是不是應該主動介入來關心在整個調查過程有沒有降時有沒有疏失這些有沒有被接住因為他們是長期是長達3、4年以上的\n\n40\n00:14:50,353 --> 00:15:07,038\n您們要不要做?您們要不要做這件事?要不要主動?按照信訊法防治法他是採取所謂的告示也就是被害人要申訴那他申訴之後就會按照申訴的流程去調查調查屬實之後會到審議會去做行政裁處\n\n41\n00:15:11,058 --> 00:15:25,726\n部長我還是希望因為真的蠻多人期待你可以做一些事情至少免除新的受害者很多人很擔心啊也有的病人說啊原來我以前也曾經經歷過這個醫生都有性騷寫在網路上寫在dcard那但是他現在卻還在執行業務這個是不是你也應該要去了解呢是不是應該是你的責任呢\n\n42\n00:15:36,038 --> 00:15:41,491\n你不是管全國醫師的人嗎那你也應該保護這群受害的女醫師啊\n\n43\n00:15:44,356 --> 00:16:06,904\n我想站在過去長期擔任比較屬於一屆的幹部我們有責任來關心所有醫師的工作的場所是不是安全然後很愉快部長你真的要大魄大力很多人期待你可以做一點事情因為這些事情在這個一屆長期\n\n44\n00:16:09,685 --> 00:16:13,787\n有倫理關係、不對等關係、權勢關係這些事可能不只在這個地方有發生好,我想我們會委由我會來拜託那個議事公會全聯會大家也會期待衛福部有一個具體的聲明\n\n45\n00:16:30,404 --> 00:16:37,981\n好,我想我們把事情理得更清楚以後一定會有守立場我們會再繼續追你好,沒問題謝謝好,謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n629\t14039\t請陳菁徽委員質詢。那我們在王振旭委員質詢完畢後休息10分鐘。主席各位委員我也想請邱部長。\n18243\t32309\t陳副部長,我剛聽了這麼多委員質詢,我有一種濃濃的即視感。大概幾個禮拜以前,何佩珊就是跟你類似一樣的態度跟說法,說這份報告很用心,管理不當。\n33490\t37533\t剛剛有講到說健康操的時間你有看到投訴的內容嗎投訴的內容是請他深蹲報告欸你覺得如果賴清德總統叫你深蹲跟他報告你還是覺得賴清德總統管理不當你想看看是不是賴清德總統管理不當\n52156\t70673\t他是深蹲要報告欸!這個請理事長...我先跟大家說明一下,那個委員會在報告,那個深蹲他那個不是報告,他那個是說大家各科大家就是邊運動然後大家做一些...邊運動邊開會!邊深蹲邊開會!大家就講一些...\n78362\t102932\t其實最主要是大家輪流然後在這裡面也有一些除了身體上面留另外一方面大家也可以分享一些我們的一些其他的事情而且我跟各位報告這真的不是強迫的部長你自己有看過你們那個六頁的報告嗎但是其實內容只有四頁有一頁還是空白頁你自己有看過嗎有的\n104545\t117355\t我說部長有有有那部長你講的出來是哪些人被懲處嗎?被懲處的原因是什麼?因為被懲處的人啊現在大家都不認識根本就不是我們質詢問你的人都不是\n120831\t145711\t都在懲罰小的、大的全部都放掉了然後你們現在說管理不當記過然後又說深蹲一起開會報告事情不叫霸凌那我問你啊你們這個15分鐘的運動健康操時間是不是共識決?你可以請同仁出來說這個是我們這個部門一起願意每天要一起做這個是共識決嗎?\n147284\t169192\t報告委員我想兩個重點第一個就是您剛剛說的其實我們這些我想我們的原則一定是公開透明而且物中但是也物往所以整個這個程序裡面完全都是尊重外部委員他的一個整個獨立的判斷一個專業的判斷其實這個是一個所以他到最後結果是怎麼樣老實說我們真的不能干涉\n170532\t195207\t但是我們要尊重專業的一個整個他的這個判斷的一個最後結果我聽懂了部長現在都是外部委員寫的所以我們要尊重外部委員但是部長你也有你的政治責任所以部長你願意為這個報告背書嗎還是你不願意因為是外部委員寫的我們完全尊重我們完全尊重這個所以你們不願意為這份報告背書不是\n196792\t212820\t報告委員其實最重要的其實真的我們要尊重這個整個專業上面的一些評斷還有我也跟委員報告我們整個過程裡面其實除了我們有四位的外部委員是獨立的另外第二個就是說我們在這個過程裡面我們有訪談了將近96位的同仁\n214861\t216822\t為什麼會有人為什麼會有這麼多人來跟立法委員陳情就是因為你現在講的事情完全不符合人民心中的標準跟邏輯嗎\n238795\t249130\t你為什麼不將心比心?如果賴清德總統跟你說你們必須要先親身啊!你等人家來他殺那都一把火啦!你要先親身才可以表示你的誠意啊!\n250457\t276334\t你覺得這樣不算職場霸凌嗎?其實很多事情這個都要還原當時的這一個只有講一次要長期是這個意思嗎?當然還有另外一個您剛剛說那個輕生的這些那個是整個在業務在整個公文指導上面我承認這個我也同意這個用詞是真的他可是管理社工的人他是應該要是全國最重視我們心理健康的人\n277435\t277455\t拜訪議員\n297943\t323275\t報告委員他本來是社保司司長所以你的意思是說哇你們剛剛楊楊撒撒、劉建國委員列出來這些人都是中階的幹部被離職所以霸凌最嚴重的是中階幹部最上面的都是管理不當你覺得大家可以接受你們的新聞稿嗎?各位報告委員其實齁真的我覺得整個這個過程裡面齁我覺得真的要物重\n324448\t339197\t但是呢我覺得也不能夠也勿往啦因為這個就是我們整個處理我想那個邱信仁委員剛剛也說嘛就是要勿縱勿往而且過程一定公開透明那整個這個程序\n340958\t356050\t沒關係,我們簡單的回答一下,現在你們衛福部下面有做這個健康操的部門有哪些?然後哪些是共識出來的?哪些是司長規定的?很簡單啊,大家只想知道到底這個健康操休憩時間是強迫的還是共識的?還是可參加可不參加?\n361704\t369214\t報告委員我覺得這個我也昨天我也前天在跟回應記者的時候我也說我個人認為這個是非常不當的那個行為\n369983\t379109\t那你現在取消了嗎?你取消所有衛福部規定要做健康操的單位了嗎?那可以不用參加嗎?你會宣布說可以不用參加嗎?從現在開始?那我們要看到你發布的這個發布給全部衛福部同仁的這個人書\n400563\t420694\t我覺得你講這個東西很不符合我們一般人民的標準我問你如果你們在開行政院院會賴清德總統行政院長說欸現在健康上的時間大家自由選擇要不要參加齁\n422628\t443839\t您覺得有人敢不跳嗎?報告委員,我必須再一次強調,那個只是那個時間在那邊至於您願不願意,我們當然還是基本上鼓勵是,剛劉建國委員已經講得很清楚了霸凌的形式有哪些,其中也有包括心理的壓力那你一個時間定在那邊,主管都已經在做了\n444844\t451846\t你覺得不做的人不會有壓力嗎?所以你們的報告其實意思是說中階主管卻有霸凌的事實但是管理中階主管的這批人只是因為管理不當所以被記小過這是你們報告的意思不是嗎?\n474551\t493760\t報告委員,我們所有的,我們說有一分證據說一分話,有一分證據我們就辦一分案。同樣的,我們現在目前的整個這個懲處其實也是,我再一次強調,就是我們的外部的獨立委員,他們在經過相關的量化資料以及……好,那你的報告完全也沒寫出?\n497041\t525678\t這個中階主管他們霸凌屬實後來被調職的原因都沒有寫出來這跟所有我們接到的投書的內容都完全不一樣雖然我們已經感受到我們接到投書的內容已經就是霸凌的事實了可是你的報告都沒有寫喔我們現在都不知道喔就是你拿出來祭旗的這批人到底做了什麼事情我們完全不知道我們這個沒有真的完全沒有所謂祭旗不祭旗的事情但是我剛剛說就是說必須Evidence based\n526098\t529079\t這是教育部105年公告的學校訂定教師輔導與管理學生辦法注意事項明訂體罰的樣態以及範圍但是呢您說福利挺身不算是體罰霸凌而是PK我想請教一下這個教育部明訂出來體罰紅框框理念\n552148\t576577\t福利挺身是不是不用算在內?以後老師都可以叫學生福利挺身?PK?報告委員我再還原一下正如剛剛部長剛剛有說的嘛只有一次而已22月那一次剛好就有一個新進同仁進來他在那邊說他有做健身那剛好他說有另外一位替代役他也說他會做福利挺身那大家就起哄嘛\n577979\t585032\t所以在整個過程影片過程裡面各位那個委員也可以看到所以你覺得大家如果是起哄和樂融融為什麼這個影片還會被傳出來\n589121\t590642\t所以未來你們衛福部可以訂一個PK表PK是OK的\n611081\t638020\t報告委員因為我們剛剛已經說了我們不會我們會提供這一個健康操時間但是用什麼形式這基本上完全尊重同仁所以這個基本上就不涉及要不要定那些我覺得還是要就是部長也常常跟我們講我們將心我們站在這個同仁的立場我們就是要給同仁一個最好的一個整個有尊嚴的而且最好的資產環境我也跟委員報告剛剛劉建國委員我也要說其實\n638840\t639220\t我是具體建議啦,因為很多人\n666844\t667404\t下一題,對不起,主持我想問部長。\n696260\t723842\t部長我看到這個新聞我是非常難過因為我這幾天其實有一些人嘗試聯繫我我聽完這些故事以後我覺得蠻痛苦的因為同樣身為女生很多醫生希望透過我來發聲說他們看到全國的醫師看到全國的醫師的最大長官叫做衛福部部長管理醫事法的是你沒錯吧醫療法的主管機關也是你沒錯吧\n725631\t728753\t我聽完這些受害者的故事真的有人聯絡我了還有一些不是在新聞裡面的人\n753193\t773750\t請問我們全國醫師最高指導單位會務部長不用做什麼嗎?你有沒有什麼具體可以為他們做的?好,我們就是依規定在辦理嘛。如果醫師有涉及到相關的這些性騷擾相關事件,僱主就會依要性憑三法來規定。這個台大也有在進行。\n775271\t800626\t所以好像已經離職了那如果有司法或者是他看他的情節如果有司法機關來追溯他的刑事責任那如果是利用業務機會犯罪行為且經判刑確定沒關係部長部長你剛剛講的這個議事法裡面其實有一個不管是工會或者是主管機關都可以做出行動那請問衛福部到底算不算主管機關嗎\n803924\t805226\t主管機關是先由當地的衛生局來移送。那你會去關心嗎?\n816366\t843371\t這件事情其實是各個縣市政府其實都有那個信憑的委員會會做調查所以是說其實衛福部這邊我要講的是醫事管理後我們是後段調查的結果出來之後我們其實是會做處理後去的處理其實就是以醫事法剛剛部長在講的就是說調查出來之後所以你的醫事法的主管機關你先交給工會還有地方的衛生機關\n844511\t865901\t沒有。前面有一個各縣市政府的調查委員會。後面在發動的時候才是由剛剛部長講的。那部長你有去關心這件事走到哪裡了嗎?畢竟說不定裡面有一些人也是你認識的。受害者。我們目前只有初步的了解就是臺大醫院的部分其實是臺灣大學這邊在做調查以上。\n869517\t875803\t因為你是這個性殺老防治法的主責機關我會想問說保護司是不是應該主動介入來關心在整個調查過程有沒有降時有沒有疏失這些有沒有被接住因為他們是長期是長達3、4年以上的\n890353\t907038\t您們要不要做?您們要不要做這件事?要不要主動?按照信訊法防治法他是採取所謂的告示也就是被害人要申訴那他申訴之後就會按照申訴的流程去調查調查屬實之後會到審議會去做行政裁處\n911058\t925726\t部長我還是希望因為真的蠻多人期待你可以做一些事情至少免除新的受害者很多人很擔心啊也有的病人說啊原來我以前也曾經經歷過這個醫生都有性騷寫在網路上寫在dcard那但是他現在卻還在執行業務這個是不是你也應該要去了解呢是不是應該是你的責任呢\n936038\t941491\t你不是管全國醫師的人嗎那你也應該保護這群受害的女醫師啊\n944356\t966904\t我想站在過去長期擔任比較屬於一屆的幹部我們有責任來關心所有醫師的工作的場所是不是安全然後很愉快部長你真的要大魄大力很多人期待你可以做一點事情因為這些事情在這個一屆長期\n969685\t973787\t有倫理關係、不對等關係、權勢關係這些事可能不只在這個地方有發生好,我想我們會委由我會來拜託那個議事公會全聯會大家也會期待衛福部有一個具體的聲明\n990404\t997981\t好,我想我們把事情理得更清楚以後一定會有守立場我們會再繼續追你好,沒問題謝謝好,謝謝\n","txt":"請陳菁徽委員質詢。那我們在王振旭委員質詢完畢後休息10分鐘。主席各位委員我也想請邱部長。\n陳副部長,我剛聽了這麼多委員質詢,我有一種濃濃的即視感。大概幾個禮拜以前,何佩珊就是跟你類似一樣的態度跟說法,說這份報告很用心,管理不當。\n剛剛有講到說健康操的時間你有看到投訴的內容嗎投訴的內容是請他深蹲報告欸你覺得如果賴清德總統叫你深蹲跟他報告你還是覺得賴清德總統管理不當你想看看是不是賴清德總統管理不當\n他是深蹲要報告欸!這個請理事長...我先跟大家說明一下,那個委員會在報告,那個深蹲他那個不是報告,他那個是說大家各科大家就是邊運動然後大家做一些...邊運動邊開會!邊深蹲邊開會!大家就講一些...\n其實最主要是大家輪流然後在這裡面也有一些除了身體上面留另外一方面大家也可以分享一些我們的一些其他的事情而且我跟各位報告這真的不是強迫的部長你自己有看過你們那個六頁的報告嗎但是其實內容只有四頁有一頁還是空白頁你自己有看過嗎有的\n我說部長有有有那部長你講的出來是哪些人被懲處嗎?被懲處的原因是什麼?因為被懲處的人啊現在大家都不認識根本就不是我們質詢問你的人都不是\n都在懲罰小的、大的全部都放掉了然後你們現在說管理不當記過然後又說深蹲一起開會報告事情不叫霸凌那我問你啊你們這個15分鐘的運動健康操時間是不是共識決?你可以請同仁出來說這個是我們這個部門一起願意每天要一起做這個是共識決嗎?\n報告委員我想兩個重點第一個就是您剛剛說的其實我們這些我想我們的原則一定是公開透明而且物中但是也物往所以整個這個程序裡面完全都是尊重外部委員他的一個整個獨立的判斷一個專業的判斷其實這個是一個所以他到最後結果是怎麼樣老實說我們真的不能干涉\n但是我們要尊重專業的一個整個他的這個判斷的一個最後結果我聽懂了部長現在都是外部委員寫的所以我們要尊重外部委員但是部長你也有你的政治責任所以部長你願意為這個報告背書嗎還是你不願意因為是外部委員寫的我們完全尊重我們完全尊重這個所以你們不願意為這份報告背書不是\n報告委員其實最重要的其實真的我們要尊重這個整個專業上面的一些評斷還有我也跟委員報告我們整個過程裡面其實除了我們有四位的外部委員是獨立的另外第二個就是說我們在這個過程裡面我們有訪談了將近96位的同仁\n為什麼會有人為什麼會有這麼多人來跟立法委員陳情就是因為你現在講的事情完全不符合人民心中的標準跟邏輯嗎\n你為什麼不將心比心?如果賴清德總統跟你說你們必須要先親身啊!你等人家來他殺那都一把火啦!你要先親身才可以表示你的誠意啊!\n你覺得這樣不算職場霸凌嗎?其實很多事情這個都要還原當時的這一個只有講一次要長期是這個意思嗎?當然還有另外一個您剛剛說那個輕生的這些那個是整個在業務在整個公文指導上面我承認這個我也同意這個用詞是真的他可是管理社工的人他是應該要是全國最重視我們心理健康的人\n拜訪議員\n報告委員他本來是社保司司長所以你的意思是說哇你們剛剛楊楊撒撒、劉建國委員列出來這些人都是中階的幹部被離職所以霸凌最嚴重的是中階幹部最上面的都是管理不當你覺得大家可以接受你們的新聞稿嗎?各位報告委員其實齁真的我覺得整個這個過程裡面齁我覺得真的要物重\n但是呢我覺得也不能夠也勿往啦因為這個就是我們整個處理我想那個邱信仁委員剛剛也說嘛就是要勿縱勿往而且過程一定公開透明那整個這個程序\n沒關係,我們簡單的回答一下,現在你們衛福部下面有做這個健康操的部門有哪些?然後哪些是共識出來的?哪些是司長規定的?很簡單啊,大家只想知道到底這個健康操休憩時間是強迫的還是共識的?還是可參加可不參加?\n報告委員我覺得這個我也昨天我也前天在跟回應記者的時候我也說我個人認為這個是非常不當的那個行為\n那你現在取消了嗎?你取消所有衛福部規定要做健康操的單位了嗎?那可以不用參加嗎?你會宣布說可以不用參加嗎?從現在開始?那我們要看到你發布的這個發布給全部衛福部同仁的這個人書\n我覺得你講這個東西很不符合我們一般人民的標準我問你如果你們在開行政院院會賴清德總統行政院長說欸現在健康上的時間大家自由選擇要不要參加齁\n您覺得有人敢不跳嗎?報告委員,我必須再一次強調,那個只是那個時間在那邊至於您願不願意,我們當然還是基本上鼓勵是,剛劉建國委員已經講得很清楚了霸凌的形式有哪些,其中也有包括心理的壓力那你一個時間定在那邊,主管都已經在做了\n你覺得不做的人不會有壓力嗎?所以你們的報告其實意思是說中階主管卻有霸凌的事實但是管理中階主管的這批人只是因為管理不當所以被記小過這是你們報告的意思不是嗎?\n報告委員,我們所有的,我們說有一分證據說一分話,有一分證據我們就辦一分案。同樣的,我們現在目前的整個這個懲處其實也是,我再一次強調,就是我們的外部的獨立委員,他們在經過相關的量化資料以及……好,那你的報告完全也沒寫出?\n這個中階主管他們霸凌屬實後來被調職的原因都沒有寫出來這跟所有我們接到的投書的內容都完全不一樣雖然我們已經感受到我們接到投書的內容已經就是霸凌的事實了可是你的報告都沒有寫喔我們現在都不知道喔就是你拿出來祭旗的這批人到底做了什麼事情我們完全不知道我們這個沒有真的完全沒有所謂祭旗不祭旗的事情但是我剛剛說就是說必須Evidence based\n這是教育部105年公告的學校訂定教師輔導與管理學生辦法注意事項明訂體罰的樣態以及範圍但是呢您說福利挺身不算是體罰霸凌而是PK我想請教一下這個教育部明訂出來體罰紅框框理念\n福利挺身是不是不用算在內?以後老師都可以叫學生福利挺身?PK?報告委員我再還原一下正如剛剛部長剛剛有說的嘛只有一次而已22月那一次剛好就有一個新進同仁進來他在那邊說他有做健身那剛好他說有另外一位替代役他也說他會做福利挺身那大家就起哄嘛\n所以在整個過程影片過程裡面各位那個委員也可以看到所以你覺得大家如果是起哄和樂融融為什麼這個影片還會被傳出來\n所以未來你們衛福部可以訂一個PK表PK是OK的\n報告委員因為我們剛剛已經說了我們不會我們會提供這一個健康操時間但是用什麼形式這基本上完全尊重同仁所以這個基本上就不涉及要不要定那些我覺得還是要就是部長也常常跟我們講我們將心我們站在這個同仁的立場我們就是要給同仁一個最好的一個整個有尊嚴的而且最好的資產環境我也跟委員報告剛剛劉建國委員我也要說其實\n我是具體建議啦,因為很多人\n下一題,對不起,主持我想問部長。\n部長我看到這個新聞我是非常難過因為我這幾天其實有一些人嘗試聯繫我我聽完這些故事以後我覺得蠻痛苦的因為同樣身為女生很多醫生希望透過我來發聲說他們看到全國的醫師看到全國的醫師的最大長官叫做衛福部部長管理醫事法的是你沒錯吧醫療法的主管機關也是你沒錯吧\n我聽完這些受害者的故事真的有人聯絡我了還有一些不是在新聞裡面的人\n請問我們全國醫師最高指導單位會務部長不用做什麼嗎?你有沒有什麼具體可以為他們做的?好,我們就是依規定在辦理嘛。如果醫師有涉及到相關的這些性騷擾相關事件,僱主就會依要性憑三法來規定。這個台大也有在進行。\n所以好像已經離職了那如果有司法或者是他看他的情節如果有司法機關來追溯他的刑事責任那如果是利用業務機會犯罪行為且經判刑確定沒關係部長部長你剛剛講的這個議事法裡面其實有一個不管是工會或者是主管機關都可以做出行動那請問衛福部到底算不算主管機關嗎\n主管機關是先由當地的衛生局來移送。那你會去關心嗎?\n這件事情其實是各個縣市政府其實都有那個信憑的委員會會做調查所以是說其實衛福部這邊我要講的是醫事管理後我們是後段調查的結果出來之後我們其實是會做處理後去的處理其實就是以醫事法剛剛部長在講的就是說調查出來之後所以你的醫事法的主管機關你先交給工會還有地方的衛生機關\n沒有。前面有一個各縣市政府的調查委員會。後面在發動的時候才是由剛剛部長講的。那部長你有去關心這件事走到哪裡了嗎?畢竟說不定裡面有一些人也是你認識的。受害者。我們目前只有初步的了解就是臺大醫院的部分其實是臺灣大學這邊在做調查以上。\n因為你是這個性殺老防治法的主責機關我會想問說保護司是不是應該主動介入來關心在整個調查過程有沒有降時有沒有疏失這些有沒有被接住因為他們是長期是長達3、4年以上的\n您們要不要做?您們要不要做這件事?要不要主動?按照信訊法防治法他是採取所謂的告示也就是被害人要申訴那他申訴之後就會按照申訴的流程去調查調查屬實之後會到審議會去做行政裁處\n部長我還是希望因為真的蠻多人期待你可以做一些事情至少免除新的受害者很多人很擔心啊也有的病人說啊原來我以前也曾經經歷過這個醫生都有性騷寫在網路上寫在dcard那但是他現在卻還在執行業務這個是不是你也應該要去了解呢是不是應該是你的責任呢\n你不是管全國醫師的人嗎那你也應該保護這群受害的女醫師啊\n我想站在過去長期擔任比較屬於一屆的幹部我們有責任來關心所有醫師的工作的場所是不是安全然後很愉快部長你真的要大魄大力很多人期待你可以做一點事情因為這些事情在這個一屆長期\n有倫理關係、不對等關係、權勢關係這些事可能不只在這個地方有發生好,我想我們會委由我會來拜託那個議事公會全聯會大家也會期待衛福部有一個具體的聲明\n好,我想我們把事情理得更清楚以後一定會有守立場我們會再繼續追你好,沒問題謝謝好,謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.629 --> 00:14.039\n請陳菁徽委員質詢。那我們在王振旭委員質詢完畢後休息10分鐘。主席各位委員我也想請邱部長。\n\n00:18.243 --> 00:32.309\n陳副部長,我剛聽了這麼多委員質詢,我有一種濃濃的即視感。大概幾個禮拜以前,何佩珊就是跟你類似一樣的態度跟說法,說這份報告很用心,管理不當。\n\n00:33.490 --> 00:37.533\n剛剛有講到說健康操的時間你有看到投訴的內容嗎投訴的內容是請他深蹲報告欸你覺得如果賴清德總統叫你深蹲跟他報告你還是覺得賴清德總統管理不當你想看看是不是賴清德總統管理不當\n\n00:52.156 --> 01:10.673\n他是深蹲要報告欸!這個請理事長...我先跟大家說明一下,那個委員會在報告,那個深蹲他那個不是報告,他那個是說大家各科大家就是邊運動然後大家做一些...邊運動邊開會!邊深蹲邊開會!大家就講一些...\n\n01:18.362 --> 01:42.932\n其實最主要是大家輪流然後在這裡面也有一些除了身體上面留另外一方面大家也可以分享一些我們的一些其他的事情而且我跟各位報告這真的不是強迫的部長你自己有看過你們那個六頁的報告嗎但是其實內容只有四頁有一頁還是空白頁你自己有看過嗎有的\n\n01:44.545 --> 01:57.355\n我說部長有有有那部長你講的出來是哪些人被懲處嗎?被懲處的原因是什麼?因為被懲處的人啊現在大家都不認識根本就不是我們質詢問你的人都不是\n\n02:00.831 --> 02:25.711\n都在懲罰小的、大的全部都放掉了然後你們現在說管理不當記過然後又說深蹲一起開會報告事情不叫霸凌那我問你啊你們這個15分鐘的運動健康操時間是不是共識決?你可以請同仁出來說這個是我們這個部門一起願意每天要一起做這個是共識決嗎?\n\n02:27.284 --> 02:49.192\n報告委員我想兩個重點第一個就是您剛剛說的其實我們這些我想我們的原則一定是公開透明而且物中但是也物往所以整個這個程序裡面完全都是尊重外部委員他的一個整個獨立的判斷一個專業的判斷其實這個是一個所以他到最後結果是怎麼樣老實說我們真的不能干涉\n\n02:50.532 --> 03:15.207\n但是我們要尊重專業的一個整個他的這個判斷的一個最後結果我聽懂了部長現在都是外部委員寫的所以我們要尊重外部委員但是部長你也有你的政治責任所以部長你願意為這個報告背書嗎還是你不願意因為是外部委員寫的我們完全尊重我們完全尊重這個所以你們不願意為這份報告背書不是\n\n03:16.792 --> 03:32.820\n報告委員其實最重要的其實真的我們要尊重這個整個專業上面的一些評斷還有我也跟委員報告我們整個過程裡面其實除了我們有四位的外部委員是獨立的另外第二個就是說我們在這個過程裡面我們有訪談了將近96位的同仁\n\n03:34.861 --> 03:36.822\n為什麼會有人為什麼會有這麼多人來跟立法委員陳情就是因為你現在講的事情完全不符合人民心中的標準跟邏輯嗎\n\n03:58.795 --> 04:09.130\n你為什麼不將心比心?如果賴清德總統跟你說你們必須要先親身啊!你等人家來他殺那都一把火啦!你要先親身才可以表示你的誠意啊!\n\n04:10.457 --> 04:36.334\n你覺得這樣不算職場霸凌嗎?其實很多事情這個都要還原當時的這一個只有講一次要長期是這個意思嗎?當然還有另外一個您剛剛說那個輕生的這些那個是整個在業務在整個公文指導上面我承認這個我也同意這個用詞是真的他可是管理社工的人他是應該要是全國最重視我們心理健康的人\n\n04:37.435 --> 04:37.455\n拜訪議員\n\n04:57.943 --> 05:23.275\n報告委員他本來是社保司司長所以你的意思是說哇你們剛剛楊楊撒撒、劉建國委員列出來這些人都是中階的幹部被離職所以霸凌最嚴重的是中階幹部最上面的都是管理不當你覺得大家可以接受你們的新聞稿嗎?各位報告委員其實齁真的我覺得整個這個過程裡面齁我覺得真的要物重\n\n05:24.448 --> 05:39.197\n但是呢我覺得也不能夠也勿往啦因為這個就是我們整個處理我想那個邱信仁委員剛剛也說嘛就是要勿縱勿往而且過程一定公開透明那整個這個程序\n\n05:40.958 --> 05:56.050\n沒關係,我們簡單的回答一下,現在你們衛福部下面有做這個健康操的部門有哪些?然後哪些是共識出來的?哪些是司長規定的?很簡單啊,大家只想知道到底這個健康操休憩時間是強迫的還是共識的?還是可參加可不參加?\n\n06:01.704 --> 06:09.214\n報告委員我覺得這個我也昨天我也前天在跟回應記者的時候我也說我個人認為這個是非常不當的那個行為\n\n06:09.983 --> 06:19.109\n那你現在取消了嗎?你取消所有衛福部規定要做健康操的單位了嗎?那可以不用參加嗎?你會宣布說可以不用參加嗎?從現在開始?那我們要看到你發布的這個發布給全部衛福部同仁的這個人書\n\n06:40.563 --> 07:00.694\n我覺得你講這個東西很不符合我們一般人民的標準我問你如果你們在開行政院院會賴清德總統行政院長說欸現在健康上的時間大家自由選擇要不要參加齁\n\n07:02.628 --> 07:23.839\n您覺得有人敢不跳嗎?報告委員,我必須再一次強調,那個只是那個時間在那邊至於您願不願意,我們當然還是基本上鼓勵是,剛劉建國委員已經講得很清楚了霸凌的形式有哪些,其中也有包括心理的壓力那你一個時間定在那邊,主管都已經在做了\n\n07:24.844 --> 07:31.846\n你覺得不做的人不會有壓力嗎?所以你們的報告其實意思是說中階主管卻有霸凌的事實但是管理中階主管的這批人只是因為管理不當所以被記小過這是你們報告的意思不是嗎?\n\n07:54.551 --> 08:13.760\n報告委員,我們所有的,我們說有一分證據說一分話,有一分證據我們就辦一分案。同樣的,我們現在目前的整個這個懲處其實也是,我再一次強調,就是我們的外部的獨立委員,他們在經過相關的量化資料以及……好,那你的報告完全也沒寫出?\n\n08:17.041 --> 08:45.678\n這個中階主管他們霸凌屬實後來被調職的原因都沒有寫出來這跟所有我們接到的投書的內容都完全不一樣雖然我們已經感受到我們接到投書的內容已經就是霸凌的事實了可是你的報告都沒有寫喔我們現在都不知道喔就是你拿出來祭旗的這批人到底做了什麼事情我們完全不知道我們這個沒有真的完全沒有所謂祭旗不祭旗的事情但是我剛剛說就是說必須Evidencebased\n\n08:46.098 --> 08:49.079\n這是教育部105年公告的學校訂定教師輔導與管理學生辦法注意事項明訂體罰的樣態以及範圍但是呢您說福利挺身不算是體罰霸凌而是PK我想請教一下這個教育部明訂出來體罰紅框框理念\n\n09:12.148 --> 09:36.577\n福利挺身是不是不用算在內?以後老師都可以叫學生福利挺身?PK?報告委員我再還原一下正如剛剛部長剛剛有說的嘛只有一次而已22月那一次剛好就有一個新進同仁進來他在那邊說他有做健身那剛好他說有另外一位替代役他也說他會做福利挺身那大家就起哄嘛\n\n09:37.979 --> 09:45.032\n所以在整個過程影片過程裡面各位那個委員也可以看到所以你覺得大家如果是起哄和樂融融為什麼這個影片還會被傳出來\n\n09:49.121 --> 09:50.642\n所以未來你們衛福部可以訂一個PK表PK是OK的\n\n10:11.081 --> 10:38.020\n報告委員因為我們剛剛已經說了我們不會我們會提供這一個健康操時間但是用什麼形式這基本上完全尊重同仁所以這個基本上就不涉及要不要定那些我覺得還是要就是部長也常常跟我們講我們將心我們站在這個同仁的立場我們就是要給同仁一個最好的一個整個有尊嚴的而且最好的資產環境我也跟委員報告剛剛劉建國委員我也要說其實\n\n10:38.840 --> 10:39.220\n我是具體建議啦,因為很多人\n\n11:06.844 --> 11:07.404\n下一題,對不起,主持我想問部長。\n\n11:36.260 --> 12:03.842\n部長我看到這個新聞我是非常難過因為我這幾天其實有一些人嘗試聯繫我我聽完這些故事以後我覺得蠻痛苦的因為同樣身為女生很多醫生希望透過我來發聲說他們看到全國的醫師看到全國的醫師的最大長官叫做衛福部部長管理醫事法的是你沒錯吧醫療法的主管機關也是你沒錯吧\n\n12:05.631 --> 12:08.753\n我聽完這些受害者的故事真的有人聯絡我了還有一些不是在新聞裡面的人\n\n12:33.193 --> 12:53.750\n請問我們全國醫師最高指導單位會務部長不用做什麼嗎?你有沒有什麼具體可以為他們做的?好,我們就是依規定在辦理嘛。如果醫師有涉及到相關的這些性騷擾相關事件,僱主就會依要性憑三法來規定。這個台大也有在進行。\n\n12:55.271 --> 13:20.626\n所以好像已經離職了那如果有司法或者是他看他的情節如果有司法機關來追溯他的刑事責任那如果是利用業務機會犯罪行為且經判刑確定沒關係部長部長你剛剛講的這個議事法裡面其實有一個不管是工會或者是主管機關都可以做出行動那請問衛福部到底算不算主管機關嗎\n\n13:23.924 --> 13:25.226\n主管機關是先由當地的衛生局來移送。那你會去關心嗎?\n\n13:36.366 --> 14:03.371\n這件事情其實是各個縣市政府其實都有那個信憑的委員會會做調查所以是說其實衛福部這邊我要講的是醫事管理後我們是後段調查的結果出來之後我們其實是會做處理後去的處理其實就是以醫事法剛剛部長在講的就是說調查出來之後所以你的醫事法的主管機關你先交給工會還有地方的衛生機關\n\n14:04.511 --> 14:25.901\n沒有。前面有一個各縣市政府的調查委員會。後面在發動的時候才是由剛剛部長講的。那部長你有去關心這件事走到哪裡了嗎?畢竟說不定裡面有一些人也是你認識的。受害者。我們目前只有初步的了解就是臺大醫院的部分其實是臺灣大學這邊在做調查以上。\n\n14:29.517 --> 14:35.803\n因為你是這個性殺老防治法的主責機關我會想問說保護司是不是應該主動介入來關心在整個調查過程有沒有降時有沒有疏失這些有沒有被接住因為他們是長期是長達3、4年以上的\n\n14:50.353 --> 15:07.038\n您們要不要做?您們要不要做這件事?要不要主動?按照信訊法防治法他是採取所謂的告示也就是被害人要申訴那他申訴之後就會按照申訴的流程去調查調查屬實之後會到審議會去做行政裁處\n\n15:11.058 --> 15:25.726\n部長我還是希望因為真的蠻多人期待你可以做一些事情至少免除新的受害者很多人很擔心啊也有的病人說啊原來我以前也曾經經歷過這個醫生都有性騷寫在網路上寫在dcard那但是他現在卻還在執行業務這個是不是你也應該要去了解呢是不是應該是你的責任呢\n\n15:36.038 --> 15:41.491\n你不是管全國醫師的人嗎那你也應該保護這群受害的女醫師啊\n\n15:44.356 --> 16:06.904\n我想站在過去長期擔任比較屬於一屆的幹部我們有責任來關心所有醫師的工作的場所是不是安全然後很愉快部長你真的要大魄大力很多人期待你可以做一點事情因為這些事情在這個一屆長期\n\n16:09.685 --> 16:13.787\n有倫理關係、不對等關係、權勢關係這些事可能不只在這個地方有發生好,我想我們會委由我會來拜託那個議事公會全聯會大家也會期待衛福部有一個具體的聲明\n\n16:30.404 --> 16:37.981\n好,我想我們把事情理得更清楚以後一定會有守立場我們會再繼續追你好,沒問題謝謝好,謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.629,"end":14.039,"text":"請陳菁徽委員質詢。那我們在王振旭委員質詢完畢後休息10分鐘。主席各位委員我也想請邱部長。"},{"start":18.243,"end":32.309,"text":"陳副部長,我剛聽了這麼多委員質詢,我有一種濃濃的即視感。大概幾個禮拜以前,何佩珊就是跟你類似一樣的態度跟說法,說這份報告很用心,管理不當。"},{"start":33.49,"end":37.533,"text":"剛剛有講到說健康操的時間你有看到投訴的內容嗎投訴的內容是請他深蹲報告欸你覺得如果賴清德總統叫你深蹲跟他報告你還是覺得賴清德總統管理不當你想看看是不是賴清德總統管理不當"},{"start":52.156,"end":70.673,"text":"他是深蹲要報告欸!這個請理事長...我先跟大家說明一下,那個委員會在報告,那個深蹲他那個不是報告,他那個是說大家各科大家就是邊運動然後大家做一些...邊運動邊開會!邊深蹲邊開會!大家就講一些..."},{"start":78.362,"end":102.932,"text":"其實最主要是大家輪流然後在這裡面也有一些除了身體上面留另外一方面大家也可以分享一些我們的一些其他的事情而且我跟各位報告這真的不是強迫的部長你自己有看過你們那個六頁的報告嗎但是其實內容只有四頁有一頁還是空白頁你自己有看過嗎有的"},{"start":104.545,"end":117.355,"text":"我說部長有有有那部長你講的出來是哪些人被懲處嗎?被懲處的原因是什麼?因為被懲處的人啊現在大家都不認識根本就不是我們質詢問你的人都不是"},{"start":120.831,"end":145.711,"text":"都在懲罰小的、大的全部都放掉了然後你們現在說管理不當記過然後又說深蹲一起開會報告事情不叫霸凌那我問你啊你們這個15分鐘的運動健康操時間是不是共識決?你可以請同仁出來說這個是我們這個部門一起願意每天要一起做這個是共識決嗎?"},{"start":147.284,"end":169.192,"text":"報告委員我想兩個重點第一個就是您剛剛說的其實我們這些我想我們的原則一定是公開透明而且物中但是也物往所以整個這個程序裡面完全都是尊重外部委員他的一個整個獨立的判斷一個專業的判斷其實這個是一個所以他到最後結果是怎麼樣老實說我們真的不能干涉"},{"start":170.532,"end":195.207,"text":"但是我們要尊重專業的一個整個他的這個判斷的一個最後結果我聽懂了部長現在都是外部委員寫的所以我們要尊重外部委員但是部長你也有你的政治責任所以部長你願意為這個報告背書嗎還是你不願意因為是外部委員寫的我們完全尊重我們完全尊重這個所以你們不願意為這份報告背書不是"},{"start":196.792,"end":212.82,"text":"報告委員其實最重要的其實真的我們要尊重這個整個專業上面的一些評斷還有我也跟委員報告我們整個過程裡面其實除了我們有四位的外部委員是獨立的另外第二個就是說我們在這個過程裡面我們有訪談了將近96位的同仁"},{"start":214.861,"end":216.822,"text":"為什麼會有人為什麼會有這麼多人來跟立法委員陳情就是因為你現在講的事情完全不符合人民心中的標準跟邏輯嗎"},{"start":238.795,"end":249.13,"text":"你為什麼不將心比心?如果賴清德總統跟你說你們必須要先親身啊!你等人家來他殺那都一把火啦!你要先親身才可以表示你的誠意啊!"},{"start":250.457,"end":276.334,"text":"你覺得這樣不算職場霸凌嗎?其實很多事情這個都要還原當時的這一個只有講一次要長期是這個意思嗎?當然還有另外一個您剛剛說那個輕生的這些那個是整個在業務在整個公文指導上面我承認這個我也同意這個用詞是真的他可是管理社工的人他是應該要是全國最重視我們心理健康的人"},{"start":277.435,"end":277.455,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":297.943,"end":323.275,"text":"報告委員他本來是社保司司長所以你的意思是說哇你們剛剛楊楊撒撒、劉建國委員列出來這些人都是中階的幹部被離職所以霸凌最嚴重的是中階幹部最上面的都是管理不當你覺得大家可以接受你們的新聞稿嗎?各位報告委員其實齁真的我覺得整個這個過程裡面齁我覺得真的要物重"},{"start":324.448,"end":339.197,"text":"但是呢我覺得也不能夠也勿往啦因為這個就是我們整個處理我想那個邱信仁委員剛剛也說嘛就是要勿縱勿往而且過程一定公開透明那整個這個程序"},{"start":340.958,"end":356.05,"text":"沒關係,我們簡單的回答一下,現在你們衛福部下面有做這個健康操的部門有哪些?然後哪些是共識出來的?哪些是司長規定的?很簡單啊,大家只想知道到底這個健康操休憩時間是強迫的還是共識的?還是可參加可不參加?"},{"start":361.704,"end":369.214,"text":"報告委員我覺得這個我也昨天我也前天在跟回應記者的時候我也說我個人認為這個是非常不當的那個行為"},{"start":369.983,"end":379.109,"text":"那你現在取消了嗎?你取消所有衛福部規定要做健康操的單位了嗎?那可以不用參加嗎?你會宣布說可以不用參加嗎?從現在開始?那我們要看到你發布的這個發布給全部衛福部同仁的這個人書"},{"start":400.563,"end":420.694,"text":"我覺得你講這個東西很不符合我們一般人民的標準我問你如果你們在開行政院院會賴清德總統行政院長說欸現在健康上的時間大家自由選擇要不要參加齁"},{"start":422.628,"end":443.839,"text":"您覺得有人敢不跳嗎?報告委員,我必須再一次強調,那個只是那個時間在那邊至於您願不願意,我們當然還是基本上鼓勵是,剛劉建國委員已經講得很清楚了霸凌的形式有哪些,其中也有包括心理的壓力那你一個時間定在那邊,主管都已經在做了"},{"start":444.844,"end":451.846,"text":"你覺得不做的人不會有壓力嗎?所以你們的報告其實意思是說中階主管卻有霸凌的事實但是管理中階主管的這批人只是因為管理不當所以被記小過這是你們報告的意思不是嗎?"},{"start":474.551,"end":493.76,"text":"報告委員,我們所有的,我們說有一分證據說一分話,有一分證據我們就辦一分案。同樣的,我們現在目前的整個這個懲處其實也是,我再一次強調,就是我們的外部的獨立委員,他們在經過相關的量化資料以及……好,那你的報告完全也沒寫出?"},{"start":497.041,"end":525.678,"text":"這個中階主管他們霸凌屬實後來被調職的原因都沒有寫出來這跟所有我們接到的投書的內容都完全不一樣雖然我們已經感受到我們接到投書的內容已經就是霸凌的事實了可是你的報告都沒有寫喔我們現在都不知道喔就是你拿出來祭旗的這批人到底做了什麼事情我們完全不知道我們這個沒有真的完全沒有所謂祭旗不祭旗的事情但是我剛剛說就是說必須Evidence based"},{"start":526.098,"end":529.079,"text":"這是教育部105年公告的學校訂定教師輔導與管理學生辦法注意事項明訂體罰的樣態以及範圍但是呢您說福利挺身不算是體罰霸凌而是PK我想請教一下這個教育部明訂出來體罰紅框框理念"},{"start":552.148,"end":576.577,"text":"福利挺身是不是不用算在內?以後老師都可以叫學生福利挺身?PK?報告委員我再還原一下正如剛剛部長剛剛有說的嘛只有一次而已22月那一次剛好就有一個新進同仁進來他在那邊說他有做健身那剛好他說有另外一位替代役他也說他會做福利挺身那大家就起哄嘛"},{"start":577.979,"end":585.032,"text":"所以在整個過程影片過程裡面各位那個委員也可以看到所以你覺得大家如果是起哄和樂融融為什麼這個影片還會被傳出來"},{"start":589.121,"end":590.642,"text":"所以未來你們衛福部可以訂一個PK表PK是OK的"},{"start":611.081,"end":638.02,"text":"報告委員因為我們剛剛已經說了我們不會我們會提供這一個健康操時間但是用什麼形式這基本上完全尊重同仁所以這個基本上就不涉及要不要定那些我覺得還是要就是部長也常常跟我們講我們將心我們站在這個同仁的立場我們就是要給同仁一個最好的一個整個有尊嚴的而且最好的資產環境我也跟委員報告剛剛劉建國委員我也要說其實"},{"start":638.84,"end":639.22,"text":"我是具體建議啦,因為很多人"},{"start":666.844,"end":667.404,"text":"下一題,對不起,主持我想問部長。"},{"start":696.26,"end":723.842,"text":"部長我看到這個新聞我是非常難過因為我這幾天其實有一些人嘗試聯繫我我聽完這些故事以後我覺得蠻痛苦的因為同樣身為女生很多醫生希望透過我來發聲說他們看到全國的醫師看到全國的醫師的最大長官叫做衛福部部長管理醫事法的是你沒錯吧醫療法的主管機關也是你沒錯吧"},{"start":725.631,"end":728.753,"text":"我聽完這些受害者的故事真的有人聯絡我了還有一些不是在新聞裡面的人"},{"start":753.193,"end":773.75,"text":"請問我們全國醫師最高指導單位會務部長不用做什麼嗎?你有沒有什麼具體可以為他們做的?好,我們就是依規定在辦理嘛。如果醫師有涉及到相關的這些性騷擾相關事件,僱主就會依要性憑三法來規定。這個台大也有在進行。"},{"start":775.271,"end":800.626,"text":"所以好像已經離職了那如果有司法或者是他看他的情節如果有司法機關來追溯他的刑事責任那如果是利用業務機會犯罪行為且經判刑確定沒關係部長部長你剛剛講的這個議事法裡面其實有一個不管是工會或者是主管機關都可以做出行動那請問衛福部到底算不算主管機關嗎"},{"start":803.924,"end":805.226,"text":"主管機關是先由當地的衛生局來移送。那你會去關心嗎?"},{"start":816.366,"end":843.371,"text":"這件事情其實是各個縣市政府其實都有那個信憑的委員會會做調查所以是說其實衛福部這邊我要講的是醫事管理後我們是後段調查的結果出來之後我們其實是會做處理後去的處理其實就是以醫事法剛剛部長在講的就是說調查出來之後所以你的醫事法的主管機關你先交給工會還有地方的衛生機關"},{"start":844.511,"end":865.901,"text":"沒有。前面有一個各縣市政府的調查委員會。後面在發動的時候才是由剛剛部長講的。那部長你有去關心這件事走到哪裡了嗎?畢竟說不定裡面有一些人也是你認識的。受害者。我們目前只有初步的了解就是臺大醫院的部分其實是臺灣大學這邊在做調查以上。"},{"start":869.517,"end":875.803,"text":"因為你是這個性殺老防治法的主責機關我會想問說保護司是不是應該主動介入來關心在整個調查過程有沒有降時有沒有疏失這些有沒有被接住因為他們是長期是長達3、4年以上的"},{"start":890.353,"end":907.038,"text":"您們要不要做?您們要不要做這件事?要不要主動?按照信訊法防治法他是採取所謂的告示也就是被害人要申訴那他申訴之後就會按照申訴的流程去調查調查屬實之後會到審議會去做行政裁處"},{"start":911.058,"end":925.726,"text":"部長我還是希望因為真的蠻多人期待你可以做一些事情至少免除新的受害者很多人很擔心啊也有的病人說啊原來我以前也曾經經歷過這個醫生都有性騷寫在網路上寫在dcard那但是他現在卻還在執行業務這個是不是你也應該要去了解呢是不是應該是你的責任呢"},{"start":936.038,"end":941.491,"text":"你不是管全國醫師的人嗎那你也應該保護這群受害的女醫師啊"},{"start":944.356,"end":966.904,"text":"我想站在過去長期擔任比較屬於一屆的幹部我們有責任來關心所有醫師的工作的場所是不是安全然後很愉快部長你真的要大魄大力很多人期待你可以做一點事情因為這些事情在這個一屆長期"},{"start":969.685,"end":973.787,"text":"有倫理關係、不對等關係、權勢關係這些事可能不只在這個地方有發生好,我想我們會委由我會來拜託那個議事公會全聯會大家也會期待衛福部有一個具體的聲明"},{"start":990.404,"end":997.981,"text":"好,我想我們把事情理得更清楚以後一定會有守立場我們會再繼續追你好,沒問題謝謝好,謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1134,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（10時23分）主席、各位委員，我也想請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員早。"],["陳委員菁徽：邱部長，我剛剛聽了這麼多委員質詢，我有一種濃濃的既視感，大概幾個禮拜以前何佩珊就是跟你類似的態度跟說法，說這份報告很用心。管理不當？剛剛有講到健康操的時間，你有看到投訴的內容嗎？投訴的內容是請他深蹲報告欸！你覺得如果賴清德總統叫你深蹲跟他報告，你還會覺得賴清德總統管理不當嗎？你講看看是不是賴清德總統管理不當？他是深蹲要報告欸！"],["邱部長泰源：這個請呂次長。"],["呂次長建德：我簡單說明一下，委員，我跟你報告，那個深蹲，他不是報告，那是各科大家邊運動，然後做一些……"],["陳委員菁徽：邊運動邊開會？邊深蹲邊開會？"],["呂次長建德：大家就講一些……其實最主要是大家輪流，在這裡面也有一些……除了身體上面，另外一方面大家也可以分享一些其他的事情，而且我跟委員報告，這真的不是強迫的。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，你自己有看過你們那個6頁的報告嗎？但是其實內容只有4頁，有一頁還是空白頁，你自己有看過嗎？"],["呂次長建德：有的。"],["陳委員菁徽：我說部長。"],["邱部長泰源：有。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，你講得出來是哪些人被懲處嗎？被懲處的原因是什麼？因為現在被懲處的人，大家都不認識，根本就不是我們質詢問你的人，都不是！都在懲罰小的，大的全部都放掉了，然後你們現在說管理不當、記過，然後又說深蹲是一起開會、報告事情，不叫霸凌。那我問你，這個15分鐘的運動健康操時間是不是共識決？你可以請同仁出來說，這是這個部門願意每天要一起做的，這個是共識決嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我想兩個重點，第一個就是您剛剛說的，我想我們的原則一定是公開透明而且勿縱，但是也勿枉，所以整個程序完全都是尊重外部委員的獨立判斷、專業判斷。它到最後結果是怎麼樣？老實說，我們真的不能干涉，但是我們要尊重專業判斷的最後結果，而且我也跟委員報告……"],["陳委員菁徽：我已經聽懂了！我聽懂了！現在都是外部委員寫的，所以我們要尊重外部委員，但是部長也有你的政治責任，你願意為這個報告背書嗎？還是你不願意？因為是外部委員寫的。"],["呂次長建德：我們完全尊重委員。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你們不願意為這份報告背書？"],["呂次長建德：不是！我們真的要尊重專業上的一些評斷。我也跟委員報告，整個過程裡面，除了我們有四位外部委員是獨立的。另外第二個，我們在這過程裡面，有訪談將近96位同仁，然後這之前……"],["陳委員菁徽：有，報告上都有寫，所以……"],["呂次長建德：所以整個量化的……還有這裡面透過所謂量化跟質化的交叉比對，事實上就等於法庭上面調查的、類似證詞。"],["陳委員菁徽：為什麼會有這麼多人來跟立法委員陳情？就是因為你現在講的事情，完全不符合人民心中的標準跟邏輯。你為什麼不將心比心？如果賴清德總統跟你說，你們必須要先輕生，你等人家來他殺，那都一把火了。你要先輕生才可以表示你的誠意，你覺得這樣不算職場霸凌嗎？"],["呂次長建德：其實很多事情都要還原當時的……"],["陳委員菁徽：只有講一次，要長期，是這個意思嗎？"],["呂次長建德：當然。還有另外一個，您剛剛說輕生的這些，那是在公文指導上，我承認也同意這個用詞、比喻真的不當。"],["陳委員菁徽：他可是管理社工的人，應該要是全國最重視心理健康的人，然後自殺、他殺，他可以這麼簡單的就說出口！"],["呂次長建德：我們真的認為他比喻不當，所以才會給他兩支申誡……"],["陳委員菁徽：但是他還在擔任原來的位置，不是嗎？"],["呂次長建德：我們現在把他調離社保司司長了。"],["陳委員菁徽：那是不是他本來的位置？他本來就是主秘了。他本來就是，好嗎？然後你們就是……"],["呂次長建德：他本來是社保司司長。"],["陳委員菁徽：你的意思是，剛剛劉建國委員洋洋灑灑列出來的這些人，都是中階的幹部被離職，所以霸凌最嚴重的是中階幹部，最上面的都是管理不當？你覺得大家可以接受你們的新聞稿嗎？"],["呂次長建德：我覺得這個過程裡面真的要勿縱，但是我覺得也勿枉，因為這個就是我們整個處理……我想蘇清泉委員剛剛也說，這些事情就是要勿縱勿枉，而且過程一定公開透明。整個程序這樣走下來，其實……"],["陳委員菁徽：好，沒關係，簡單回答一下。現在衛福部轄下有做健康操的部門有哪些？哪些是共識出來的？哪些是司長規定的？很簡單，大家只想知道，到底這個健康操休憩時間是強迫的，還是共識的？還是可參加、可不參加？"],["呂次長建德：我前天回應記者的時候也說，我個人認為這個是非常不當的行為。"],["陳委員菁徽：那你現在取消了嗎？所有衛福部規定要做健康操的單位取消了嗎？"],["呂次長建德：健康操是我們的一個……誠如剛剛部長說的，這是一個開放的時間，也鼓勵，但是做什麼形式，這是個人的行為自由，主管沒有任何權力去要求。"],["陳委員菁徽：可以不用參加嗎？你有宣布可以不用參加嗎？"],["呂次長建德：of course、當然可以。"],["陳委員菁徽：從現在開始，我們要看到你發布給全部衛福部同仁的這個文書。"],["呂次長建德：這個本來就是自由的，就是一個時間，時間一到就放韻律……"],["陳委員菁徽：我覺得你講這個東西很不符合一般人民的標準。我問你，如果你們在開行政院院會，賴清德總統、行政院長說，現在是健康操時間，大家自由選擇要不要參加，你覺得有人敢不跳嗎？"],["呂次長建德：我必須再一次強調，那只是有個時間在那邊，至於願不願意，我們當然基本上還是鼓勵。"],["陳委員菁徽：剛剛劉建國委員已經講得很清楚了，霸凌的形式有哪些，其中也有包括心理的壓力，一個時間定在那邊，主管都已經在做了，你覺得不做的人不會有壓力嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們是不是要有健康操這樣的時間，或者是內容要怎麼樣，整個部及所屬機關一定來檢討。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你們報告的意思是，中階主管確有霸凌的事實，但管理中階主管的這批人只是因為管理不當，所以被記小過。這是你們報告的意思，不是嗎？"],["呂次長建德：不是！有一分證據，說一分話；有一分證據，我們就辦一分案。同樣的，目前整個懲處，我再一次強調，就是外部的獨立委員在經過相關的量化資料以及進行訪談之後……"],["陳委員菁徽：你的報告完全沒寫出中階主管霸凌屬實，及後來被調職的原因都沒有寫出來，這跟我們接到投訴的內容都完全不一樣，雖然我們已經感受到我們接到投訴的內容就是霸凌的事實了，可是你的報告都沒有寫，我們現在都不知道，就是你拿出來祭旗的這批人到底做了什麼事情，我們完全不知道！"],["呂次長建德：完全沒有所謂祭旗不祭旗的事情，但是我剛剛說必須evidence-based，必須以證據為基礎。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們來evidence-based！這是教育部105年公告的「學校訂定教師輔導與管理學生辦法注意事項」，明定體罰的樣態以及範圍，但是您說伏地挺身不算是體罰、霸凌，而是PK。我想請教一下，教育部明定出來體罰，紅框框裡面所示，伏地挺身是不是不用算在內？以後老師都可以叫學生伏地挺身？PK？"],["呂次長建德：我再還原一下，誠如部長剛剛有說的……"],["陳委員菁徽：只有一次而已，是不是？"],["呂次長建德：2022年12月那一次剛好就有一位新進同仁進來，他在那邊說他有健身，剛好有另外一位替代役也說他會做伏地挺身，大家就起鬨，所以在整個影片過程裡面，委員也可以看到，中間有……"],["陳委員菁徽：大家如果是起鬨、和樂融融，為什麼這個影片還會被傳出來？"],["呂次長建德：我們不好揣測影片傳出來的動機是怎麼樣，但是這個過程裡面，據我們了解，誠如剛剛說的，就是同仁在那邊，大家互相……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以未來衛福部可以訂一個PK表？PK是OK的？"],["呂次長建德：我們剛剛已經說了，我們會提供健康操時間，但是用什麼形式，基本上完全尊重同仁，所以這個就不涉及要不要訂那些。部長也常常跟我們講，我們站在同仁的立場，就是要給同仁一個最有尊嚴的而且最好的職場環境。我也跟委員報告，剛剛劉建國委員質詢，部長也說結束之後、這個事情到一個段落之後，我們會開始啟動，針對主管以上，對於什麼叫霸凌行為，這是第一個，還有管理的藝術、溝通的藝術，我想都很重要。特別是剛剛蘇清泉委員也說，他過去在做PGY，我覺得這個過程裡面，我們也要跟年輕世代共同學習，最重要是我們要給同仁一個最好的、健康的職場環境。"],["陳委員菁徽：我具體建議，因為很多委員問到現在，大家都對這個報告很不能認同，所以你要再生出一個報告的可能性非常高。因為你的報告是違反一般有在上班的人的基本知識，我相信你們如果在院會或跟賴清德總統開會，被這樣對待，應該也不是管理不當，而就是扎扎實實的霸凌。","下一題，對不起！呂次，我想問部長。我看到這個新聞非常難過，因為這幾天其實有一些人嘗試聯繫我。我聽完這些故事以後，我覺得蠻痛苦的，因為同樣身為女生，很多醫生希望透過我來發聲，他們看到全國醫師的最大長官叫做衛福部部長，管理醫事法的是你，沒錯吧？醫療法的主管機關也是你，沒錯吧？"],["邱部長泰源：對，我們衛福部，尤其醫事是主責。"],["陳委員菁徽：性騷擾防治法的主管機關，也是你，對吧？"],["邱部長泰源：也是我們衛福部。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，事情發生好多天，衛福部躺平了嗎？衛福部一句話都沒有說，我聽完這些受害者的故事，真的有人聯絡我了，還有一些不是在新聞裡面的人，請問我們全國醫師最高指導單位衛福部部長不用做什麼嗎？你有沒有什麼具體可以為他們做的？"],["邱部長泰源：我們就是依規定在辦理，如果醫師有涉及到這些性騷擾相關事件，雇主就會依照性平三法來規定，這個臺大也有在進行，所以好像已經離職了，如果有司法或者是看他的情節，由司法機關來追溯他的刑事責任，若是利用業務機會犯罪行為，且經判刑確定……"],["陳委員菁徽：沒關係，部長，你剛剛講的醫事法裡面，其實有一個不管是公會或者是主管機關都可以做出行動，請問衛福部到底算不算主管機關？你算不算主管機關？還是你覺得你要等公會？"],["邱部長泰源：主管機關是先由當地的衛生局來移送。"],["陳委員菁徽：你會去關心嗎？"],["劉司長越萍：這件事情在各個縣市政府其實都有性平委員會會做調查，所以衛福部這邊，我要講的是醫事管理，我們是後段，調查的結果出來之後，我們會做處理，後續的處理就是以醫師法，剛剛部長在講的，就是說調查出來之後我們會……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你的意思說，醫師法的主管機關，你先交給公會，還有地方的衛生機關？"],["劉司長越萍：沒有，前面有一個各縣市政府的調查委員會，後面在發動的時候才是由剛剛部長講的……"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，你有去關心這件事走到哪裡了嗎？畢竟說不定裡面有些人是你認識的受害者。"],["劉司長越萍：我們目前只有初步的了解，臺大醫院的部分其實是臺灣大學這邊在做調查，以上。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為你是性騷擾防治法的主責機關，我也想問，保護司是不是應該主動介入來關心？這整個調查過程有沒有詳實、有沒有疏失，這些人有沒有被接住？因為他們是長期、是長達三、四年以上的……你們要不要做這件事？要不要主動？"],["張司長秀鴛：按照性騷擾防治法，它是採取所謂的告示，也就是被害人要申訴，他申訴……"],["陳委員菁徽：他申訴啦。"],["張司長秀鴛：是，他申訴之後就會按照申訴的流程去調查，調查屬實之後，會到審議會去做行政裁處。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，我還是希望，因為真的蠻多人期待你可以做一些事情，至少免除新的受害者，很多人很擔心啊！也有病人說，原來我以前也曾經經歷過這個醫生對我性騷擾，寫在網路上、寫在Dcard，但是他現在卻還在執行業務，這個是不是你也應該要去了解呢？是不是應該是你的責任呢？你不是管全國醫師的人嗎？你也應該要保護這群受害的女醫師啊！"],["邱部長泰源：好，我想站在過去長期擔任比較屬於是醫界的幹部，我們有責任來關心所有醫師工作的場所是不是安全，然後很愉快……"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，你真的要大破大立，很多人期待你可以做一點事情，因為在醫界長期有倫理關係、不對等關係、權勢關係，這些事情可能不只在這個地方發生。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我想我們會委由……我會來拜託醫師公會全聯會……"],["陳委員菁徽：大家也會期待衛福部有一個具體的聲明。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我想我們把事情釐得更清楚以後，一定會有所立場。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們會再繼續追你。"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳委員、謝謝部長。","接續我們請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-14","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","王育敏","陳瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","盧縣一","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","邱鎮軍","涂權吉"],"page_start":143,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140602_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請衛生福利部部長、考試院、行\n政院人事行政總處針對「所屬機關有關霸凌事件之調查檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1140602_00002"}}}