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{\"start\": 552.854, \"end\": 554.495, \"text\": \"是否有規避監督的想法?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 552.854, \"end\": 553.734, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"否\", \"start\": 553.734, \"end\": 553.955, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 553.955, \"end\": 554.035, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"避\", \"start\": 554.035, \"end\": 554.195, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"監\"}, {\"word\": \"督\", \"start\": 554.195, \"end\": 554.295, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 554.295, \"end\": 554.355, \"score\": 0.664}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 554.355, \"end\": 554.475, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 554.475, \"end\": 554.495, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 575.899, \"end\": 599.239, \"text\": \"如果說我們過去都有在做一些專案在跟行政院來溝通的話代表說沈記長應該也是認為相關的媒體宣傳費用不只是媒體宣傳費用啦應該是相關的費用如果說能夠集中一個這個主管機關來編列的話對於我們事後的稽查或者是他的公開透明來講的話應該都是有正面的幫助委員這個意見很好但是行政部門啊他有他的考慮也有他的相當困難\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 575.899, \"end\": 575.979, 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603.109, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 603.109, \"end\": 603.189, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 603.189, \"end\": 603.269, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 603.269, \"end\": 603.71, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"見\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 603.71, \"end\": 603.85, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 603.85, \"end\": 603.99, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 603.99, \"end\": 604.41, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 604.41, \"end\": 604.871, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 604.871, \"end\": 605.131, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 605.131, \"end\": 605.331, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 605.331, \"end\": 605.552, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 605.552, \"end\": 605.872, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 605.872, \"end\": 605.992, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 605.992, \"end\": 606.432, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 606.432, \"end\": 606.693, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 606.693, \"end\": 607.053, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"名\", \"start\": 607.053, \"end\": 607.213, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 607.213, \"end\": 607.393, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 607.393, \"end\": 607.514, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 607.514, \"end\": 607.674, \"score\": 0.772}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 607.674, \"end\": 607.854, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 607.854, \"end\": 608.114, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 608.114, \"end\": 608.234, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 608.234, \"end\": 609.035, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 609.035, \"end\": 609.175, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 609.175, \"end\": 609.315, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 609.315, \"end\": 609.876, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 609.876, \"end\": 610.417, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 610.417, \"end\": 610.777, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"省\", \"start\": 610.777, \"end\": 611.418, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"紀\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 611.418, \"end\": 611.578, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 611.578, \"end\": 611.698, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 611.698, \"end\": 612.318, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 612.318, \"end\": 612.419, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 612.419, \"end\": 612.919, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 612.919, \"end\": 613.039, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 613.039, \"end\": 613.5, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 613.5, \"end\": 613.64, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"採\"}, {\"word\": \"購\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 613.64, \"end\": 613.76, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 613.76, \"end\": 613.86, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 613.86, \"end\": 614.02, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 614.02, \"end\": 614.04, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 617.904, \"end\": 631.45, \"text\": \"那這個採購的問題如果說有一個機關他針對類似的品項招商招標有高度集中化的一個現象那您認為會有一些哪些的後遺症高\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 617.904, \"end\": 618.944, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"採\"}, {\"word\": \"購\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 618.944, \"end\": 619.525, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 619.525, \"end\": 619.685, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 619.685, \"end\": 620.365, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 620.365, \"end\": 620.865, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 620.865, \"end\": 621.426, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 621.426, \"end\": 623.166, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"類\"}, {\"word\": \"似\", \"start\": 623.166, \"end\": 623.266, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 623.266, \"end\": 623.386, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"品\", \"start\": 623.386, \"end\": 624.567, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"項\"}, {\"word\": \"招\", \"start\": 624.567, \"end\": 624.867, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"商\", \"start\": 624.867, \"end\": 625.227, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"招\", \"start\": 625.227, \"end\": 625.787, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 625.787, \"end\": 625.987, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 625.987, \"end\": 626.168, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 626.168, \"end\": 626.428, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"集\", \"start\": 626.428, \"end\": 626.608, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 626.608, \"end\": 626.808, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 626.808, \"end\": 626.988, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 626.988, \"end\": 627.068, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 627.068, \"end\": 627.548, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"象\", \"start\": 627.548, \"end\": 628.188, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 628.188, \"end\": 628.328, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 628.328, \"end\": 628.869, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 628.869, \"end\": 629.029, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 629.029, \"end\": 629.089, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 629.089, \"end\": 629.389, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"哪\", \"start\": 629.389, \"end\": 629.549, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 629.549, \"end\": 629.709, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 629.709, \"end\": 629.949, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 629.949, \"end\": 630.049, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"遺\"}, {\"word\": \"症\", \"start\": 630.049, \"end\": 631.43, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 631.43, \"end\": 631.45, \"score\": 0.998}]}, {\"start\": 633.18, \"end\": 654.45, \"text\": \"高度集中化集中到某一個產家這個我們會注意要他多次都集中這個產家我們就會列為高度風險我們會專案查核我們先不要預測說這家廠商或者是採購過程中有沒有非法的部分我們不要預測他這樣子的一個現象對我們國家採購有沒有不良的一個影響\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 633.18, \"end\": 633.32, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 633.32, \"end\": 633.44, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"集\", \"start\": 633.44, \"end\": 633.56, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 633.56, \"end\": 633.701, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 633.701, \"end\": 634.301, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"集\", \"start\": 634.301, \"end\": 634.441, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 634.441, \"end\": 634.641, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 634.641, \"end\": 634.801, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"某\", \"start\": 634.801, \"end\": 634.961, \"score\": 0.758}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 634.961, \"end\": 635.421, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"產\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 635.421, \"end\": 636.742, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 636.742, \"end\": 637.142, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"注\", \"start\": 637.142, \"end\": 637.282, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 637.282, \"end\": 638.142, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 638.142, \"end\": 638.343, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 638.343, \"end\": 639.083, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 639.083, \"end\": 639.303, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 639.303, \"end\": 639.443, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 639.443, \"end\": 639.643, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"集\", \"start\": 639.643, \"end\": 639.763, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 639.763, \"end\": 640.464, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"產\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 640.464, \"end\": 641.004, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 641.004, \"end\": 641.284, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 641.284, \"end\": 641.584, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"列\", \"start\": 641.584, \"end\": 642.364, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 642.364, \"end\": 642.985, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 642.985, \"end\": 643.705, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"風\"}, {\"word\": \"險\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 643.705, \"end\": 644.385, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 644.385, \"end\": 644.585, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 644.585, \"end\": 645.686, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"核\", \"start\": 645.686, \"end\": 645.806, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 645.806, \"end\": 645.906, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 645.906, \"end\": 646.106, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 646.106, \"end\": 646.166, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 646.166, \"end\": 647.447, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"測\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 647.447, \"end\": 647.747, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"廠\"}, {\"word\": \"商\", \"start\": 647.747, \"end\": 647.907, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 647.907, \"end\": 648.027, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 648.027, \"end\": 648.107, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 648.107, \"end\": 648.627, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"採\"}, {\"word\": \"購\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 648.627, \"end\": 648.707, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 648.707, \"end\": 648.867, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 648.867, \"end\": 648.967, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 648.967, \"end\": 649.047, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 649.047, \"end\": 649.147, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 649.147, \"end\": 649.287, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 649.287, \"end\": 649.427, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 649.427, \"end\": 649.548, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 649.548, \"end\": 649.708, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 649.708, \"end\": 650.268, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 650.268, \"end\": 650.808, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 650.808, \"end\": 651.128, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 651.128, \"end\": 651.268, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"測\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 651.268, \"end\": 652.009, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 652.009, \"end\": 652.209, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 652.209, \"end\": 652.329, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 652.329, \"end\": 652.489, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"象\", \"start\": 652.489, \"end\": 652.829, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 652.829, \"end\": 653.209, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 653.209, \"end\": 653.389, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"採\"}, {\"word\": \"購\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 653.389, \"end\": 653.549, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 653.549, \"end\": 653.709, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 653.709, \"end\": 653.869, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 653.869, \"end\": 653.969, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"良\", \"start\": 653.969, \"end\": 654.15, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 654.15, \"end\": 654.23, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 654.23, \"end\": 654.43, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"影\", \"start\": 654.43, \"end\": 654.45, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"響\"}]}, {\"start\": 655.33, \"end\": 682.891, \"text\": \"一般大家公務機關如果他是優良的他可以幫忙這個機關我們大概就這個是因為他是有時候找他可以把他的整個建築各方面的採購做得很好也有他這個工程會也有鼓勵用這樣的一個方法但是我們目前我們對於這些採購一點差不多有\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 655.33, \"end\": 655.51, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"般\", \"start\": 655.51, \"end\": 656.411, \"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 656.411, \"end\": 656.591, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 656.591, \"end\": 657.151, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 657.151, \"end\": 657.792, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 657.792, \"end\": 657.912, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 657.912, \"end\": 658.052, \"score\": 0.676}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 658.052, \"end\": 658.252, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 658.252, \"end\": 658.753, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"優\"}, {\"word\": \"良\", \"start\": 658.753, \"end\": 658.973, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"的\", 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00:01:29,671\n那剛剛這個沈縣長說相關的救安基金的專案報告之前提一個院內會提出來嘛那譬如說以個人演唱會這件事情來講應該是2022年的時候的事情那我們在那件事情發生之後有沒有我們有沒有我們這個省基部有沒有提出任何的相關的報告或檢討針對救安基金的缺失提出相關的一些糾正有在新聞爆發之前\n\n5\n00:01:30,593 --> 00:01:49,347\n第一個他連續3年啦虧了差不多200億要勞動部啊要去好好檢討第二個我們收回啊為何他救安基金用的收回他差不多沒有符合規定的租出3億多元\n\n6\n00:01:50,368 --> 00:02:06,890\n第三個他在補助一些社會團體社會單位差不多100多家但是我們查這100多家長年連續三年都違反勞動法令要他要勞動部好好檢討\n\n7\n00:02:07,911 --> 00:02:30,346\n大概我們都會就這些包括他的收支並結算我們都會提出來好所以針對就葉安丁基金長期來可能對我們省基部來說也算是長期的一個黑名單了啦應該是我們都會注意他會注意他特別他注意他的就這個使用的狀況有沒有符合我們的法令那按照我們的這個\n\n8\n00:02:32,079 --> 00:03:00,569\n法定規定我們如果說在我們的預算使用上面依照我們審計法第21條如果說有各機關違背預算或者是有關法定的不當支出我們可以事後剔除追繳之那想請問一下那我們就是針對救安基金比如說剛剛大家最關心的開個人演唱會或者是辦公室裝潢的這個部分我們後續會不會提出這個剔除以及追繳\n\n9\n00:03:01,798 --> 00:03:29,178\n八位委員我們所謂因為這個大家全國人民關心我們已經派我們的同仁去查核是初步發現為符合基金用途的有將近五千多億五千多萬五千多萬抱歉五千多萬這五千多萬我們大概會收回會幫忙收回像這個和採購異常的或者這個我們會移送檢調\n\n10\n00:03:30,740 --> 00:03:37,839\n像未竟執著的我們會移送監察案那剛剛上面講的這些都是有包含剔除跟追繳嗎?\n\n11\n00:03:39,366 --> 00:04:03,222\n大部分都收回的地方就是如果他有一些很明確的違背法令我們就會追繳或剔除追繳那這個追繳的對象是因為要回去看這個責任我們會請勞動部去這個問題給他他會給我們回覆會順路當然大家最關心追繳的對象是誰你是跟機關追繳還是跟違法運用經費的這個當時的這個公職人員來追繳\n\n12\n00:04:09,088 --> 00:04:09,169\n因為這個是這樣\n\n13\n00:04:12,733 --> 00:04:41,179\n這兩個都可能要看你們後續的調查採購人員因為這個為什麼要做這樣的採購呢我們可能他涉及違法那他就要盡到檢調比如說許前部長他不會是採購人員嗎他不會是第一線採購人員嗎對那如果是他那個沙龍罩那這個可能就我們可能就會請他那個單位我們會請他收回他就怎麼收回我們會瞭解他是不是向個人收回\n\n14\n00:04:41,539 --> 00:05:03,117\n好所以說在之後的一個﹐你們講的一個月的時間的報告提出報告的時候我可不可以拜託沈記長是否針對這一些你們認為有違法違規或是不當使用的一些經費你們評估一下哪些經費你們認為應該要踢除追繳哪一些不用那並把你們認為要不要的理由續名這可不可以\n\n15\n00:05:04,418 --> 00:05:31,960\n可以就到時候在報告裡面都可以看得一清二楚我們審計部的立場另外一點我先謝謝審計長那另外一點就是因為基金喔特別好用啦所以很多單位都喜歡用那我們就業安定基金他有沒有哪一項他的特別的可能業務啊或是等等他的功能有沒有什麼東西是本預算沒有辦法可能就是勞動部這個機關本預算沒有辦法來這個達成他的目標任務的\n\n16\n00:05:37,495 --> 00:05:54,786\n我們的收入大概就是這個移工的移工的收入嘛對不對移工的這個雇主繳的錢那支出當然就是這是穩定我們的就業那這些預算用在基金邊跟本預算邊他如果說要把這些基金預算挪回來本預算的話有沒有自愛難行的地方\n\n17\n00:05:55,768 --> 00:06:22,425\n就是預算編列的問題應該是沒有就是說救安基金他是有專用專款專用的一個性質他要用到那個法就業服務法裡面注定的促進國民就業提供勞工扶植這一方面他一定要用到他沒有用到這方面就是要在他的公務預算裡面編列不能在這裡來\n\n18\n00:06:25,967 --> 00:06:50,829\n來編（來租用所以就是因為剛剛沈記長有跟大家說明救安基金這幾年操置並決算的情況非常嚴重這就是基金的好處大家都要用基金我可以操置我到時候再並決算就好了那照剛剛沈記長講的既然他的問題這麼嚴重前科雷雷那他又沒有那個絕對存在不可替代的必要的話那沈記長你認為救安基金\n\n19\n00:06:52,051 --> 00:07:18,828\n如果說我們來提倡把他廢除的話您有沒有怎麼樣的個人意見把就業安定基金廢除回到勞動部的本預算去執行他的所有預算的收支就業安定基金是可以檢討廢除可能知識體大因為他已經行之三十幾年了所以有他的可是剛剛沈記長說他的所有的支出都應該都是可以編在本預算內啊\n\n20\n00:07:20,178 --> 00:07:44,207\n然後他的撤職並決算的情況又這麼嚴重不受監督早年財政困難的時候有時候真的有一個專款專用對促進國民就業就提供勞工扶植會相當重要所以這個要慎重好沒關係那這一部分可不可以一併納入我們省機部的一個專案報告裡面\n\n21\n00:07:45,087 --> 00:08:12,379\n好就是針對就位基金他存在的必要性如果說你們認為他有存在的必要的話那你就序明清楚讓大家知道你們的專業獨立的意見好謝謝好謝謝沈機長那另外一點就是我們立法院的預算中心定期也都會提供我們一些他們的審查的一些情況那我們的立法院預算中心提出提出幾個意見也有些意見就是針對中央政府的整體媒體宣傳費用的規模的增長那\n\n22\n00:08:13,980 --> 00:08:35,720\n一部分是金額的提高一部分是有許多的部分機關就是他可能他把這個媒體的相關的費用閃編在公務或是非基金的非營業基金或是特別預算當中那沈記長您認為同樣一個可能他是同樣的一個主管同樣一個可以運用這些資金的人他把這些媒體的這個\n\n23\n00:08:37,923 --> 00:08:43,961\n廣告的宣傳費用．拆散到不同的單位．部長．這個沈機長．您認為這樣是事宜的做法嗎?\n\n24\n00:08:46,518 --> 00:09:10,293\n這個政慾先導經會我們專案查了三年三年都專案調查我們也提出了非常多的意見給行政院參考後來他也訂立了專項但是他有的是說他會放在婚姻樂園裡面也有公務也有所以但是我們在查核的時候我們會把這幾個一起\n\n25\n00:09:12,854 --> 00:09:14,495\n是否有規避監督的想法?\n\n26\n00:09:35,899 --> 00:09:59,239\n如果說我們過去都有在做一些專案在跟行政院來溝通的話代表說沈記長應該也是認為相關的媒體宣傳費用不只是媒體宣傳費用啦應該是相關的費用如果說能夠集中一個這個主管機關來編列的話對於我們事後的稽查或者是他的公開透明來講的話應該都是有正面的幫助委員這個意見很好但是行政部門啊他有他的考慮也有他的相當困難\n\n27\n00:10:00,046 --> 00:10:14,040\n是,好,沒關係,那至少是省紀長是認同這樣子的意見那行政機關他們有如果說不這樣做的話他們應該要續名理由為什麼他們要這樣子做好,沒有問題,好謝謝,好謝謝省紀長那第三個,第三個我們來討論一下這個採購的一些這個問題啦\n\n28\n00:10:17,904 --> 00:10:31,450\n那這個採購的問題如果說有一個機關他針對類似的品項招商招標有高度集中化的一個現象那您認為會有一些哪些的後遺症高\n\n29\n00:10:33,180 --> 00:10:54,450\n高度集中化集中到某一個產家這個我們會注意要他多次都集中這個產家我們就會列為高度風險我們會專案查核我們先不要預測說這家廠商或者是採購過程中有沒有非法的部分我們不要預測他這樣子的一個現象對我們國家採購有沒有不良的一個影響\n\n30\n00:10:55,330 --> 00:11:22,891\n一般大家公務機關如果他是優良的他可以幫忙這個機關我們大概就這個是因為他是有時候找他可以把他的整個建築各方面的採購做得很好也有他這個工程會也有鼓勵用這樣的一個方法但是我們目前我們對於這些採購一點差不多有\n\n31\n00:11:25,013 --> 00:11:42,028\n有19萬件差不多有兩兆億元的採購我想跟審議長報告的是高度集中化會有依賴性過強的問題依賴性過強的問題不利於市場的公平競爭那你跟在廠方的這個談判或議約、議價之間你的主動權會相對的比這個\n\n32\n00:11:47,925 --> 00:12:00,311\n這個這個充分競爭的一個市場來的第一嘛對不對是那所以說正在我們採購立場上我今天要提的是我們的國防預算我們這幾年其實在早年我們中華民國的國防的採購\n\n33\n00:12:01,796 --> 00:12:20,611\n並沒有說這個專門要就是專門都向哪一個國家採購比如說我們過去常跟美國採購也會跟法國採購無論是我們的幻象戰機或者是我們的可能拉法葉艦雖然說它過程發生一些弊案但是我們原來這樣它的分散有分散的好處但是近年來我們中華民國呢\n\n34\n00:12:21,531 --> 00:12:44,327\n軍備的採購長期的集中在美國這一個單一的國家那產生的長期的依賴性他就會產生了一些的後遺症產生後遺症比如說我們媒體常常報道說美軍相關的軍備採購案他常常會有延宕交貨的一塊的情形這部分應該我們審計部也都有在對國防部的時候也都會有集合到嘛\n\n35\n00:12:44,927 --> 00:13:09,293\n有,像這個大概我們現在集合到的差不多有兩千多有兩千八百多億的備存帳在美國也有一千五百多億的那個延後交貨甚至是他可能是簽約了之後再預約也有可能預約之後他就不算在這裡面了\n\n36\n00:13:13,420 --> 00:13:33,146\n這樣子的一個情形就會對於我們的充值我們的國防他絕對是一個潛在的一個因子我們今天花了那麼多錢他的東西沒有辦法如時如約的如期的來交貨就會對我們的國防產生了一個可能產生了一些漏洞那針對這個部分我不曉得國防部針對他們的機密預算我們審計部也有辦法集合到嗎\n\n37\n00:13:34,139 --> 00:13:46,613\n都有都可以集合到大概經過案是高度的軍事和政治的一個因素還是有國家上位的政策還要考慮到國家整個國家安全各方面的事情\n\n38\n00:13:53,120 --> 00:14:17,466\n但是就是可能近年包括我們國防部﹐給我們立法院的一個報告﹐包括我們的高效能反專甲飛彈﹐F16的一些性能提升﹐還有我們新式戰機的採購﹐在他們可能換約了之後還是有延宕的情形﹐那就可能會﹐他的更早的一個起因﹐可能是因為我們國軍長期以來依賴美軍﹐他認為我們只有單一的窗口﹐我們不會去跟英國﹐我們不會去跟法國﹐我們不會去跟其他國家來進行軍購﹐\n\n39\n00:14:18,926 --> 00:14:41,298\n所以他可能在跟我們的談判上面他會比較強勢甚至美國他們對於這個海外軍售的制度是只要在發架書的最後年度前交貨就是可能會有這個階段性嘛他們不管階段性他們只管最後的這個年度前交貨就不算延遲那這樣子的一個合約的簽訂您認為是適當的嗎我們有請國防部檢討\n\n40\n00:14:45,611 --> 00:15:00,271\n國防部檢討以後對於不管是任何國家只要有相關的軍備的採購案當初合約怎麼訂沒有特殊的原因那就必須要如期如約的來交貨\n\n41\n00:15:01,272 --> 00:15:24,721\n那他們有相關的一些違約機制嗎?我們政府任何政府機關採購都會有違約的懲罰金啊那軍公案會有嗎?軍公案他在訂的時候是沒有我們目前沒有看也要求他我們在查核的時候發現這種現象所以我們也有要求國防部應該要有這樣的一個機制要去能夠對這一方面做一個要求那就麻煩我們審計部繼續針對上述的問題來提出一些建議給我們\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n13168\t15534\t好 謝謝院長 也要麻煩邀請我們陳機長麻煩陳省機長\n24005\t42608\t廖委員好沈機長好這個延續剛剛中委員的議題因為救安基金應該是國人最近非常關心的一個政府預算質詢的一個相當大的一個社會議題大家非常的關心那除了先前可能大家有提到的演唱會的問題啊辦公室優化\n44069\t62763\t等等的問題之外昨天在民眾黨有黨民眾黨也有召開相關的記者會也有提出一些其他相關的問題比如說媒體採購的限制性的招標問題或者是說他們的拍影片以及他的成效的問題那以及這個可能一些紀念品等等的\n63223\t89671\t那剛剛這個沈縣長說相關的救安基金的專案報告之前提一個院內會提出來嘛那譬如說以個人演唱會這件事情來講應該是2022年的時候的事情那我們在那件事情發生之後有沒有我們有沒有我們這個省基部有沒有提出任何的相關的報告或檢討針對救安基金的缺失提出相關的一些糾正有在新聞爆發之前\n90593\t109347\t第一個他連續3年啦虧了差不多200億要勞動部啊要去好好檢討第二個我們收回啊為何他救安基金用的收回他差不多沒有符合規定的租出3億多元\n110368\t126890\t第三個他在補助一些社會團體社會單位差不多100多家但是我們查這100多家長年連續三年都違反勞動法令要他要勞動部好好檢討\n127911\t150346\t大概我們都會就這些包括他的收支並結算我們都會提出來好所以針對就葉安丁基金長期來可能對我們省基部來說也算是長期的一個黑名單了啦應該是我們都會注意他會注意他特別他注意他的就這個使用的狀況有沒有符合我們的法令那按照我們的這個\n152079\t180569\t法定規定我們如果說在我們的預算使用上面依照我們審計法第21條如果說有各機關違背預算或者是有關法定的不當支出我們可以事後剔除追繳之那想請問一下那我們就是針對救安基金比如說剛剛大家最關心的開個人演唱會或者是辦公室裝潢的這個部分我們後續會不會提出這個剔除以及追繳\n181798\t209178\t八位委員我們所謂因為這個大家全國人民關心我們已經派我們的同仁去查核是初步發現為符合基金用途的有將近五千多億五千多萬五千多萬抱歉五千多萬這五千多萬我們大概會收回會幫忙收回像這個和採購異常的或者這個我們會移送檢調\n210740\t217839\t像未竟執著的我們會移送監察案那剛剛上面講的這些都是有包含剔除跟追繳嗎?\n219366\t243222\t大部分都收回的地方就是如果他有一些很明確的違背法令我們就會追繳或剔除追繳那這個追繳的對象是因為要回去看這個責任我們會請勞動部去這個問題給他他會給我們回覆會順路當然大家最關心追繳的對象是誰你是跟機關追繳還是跟違法運用經費的這個當時的這個公職人員來追繳\n249088\t249169\t因為這個是這樣\n252733\t281179\t這兩個都可能要看你們後續的調查採購人員因為這個為什麼要做這樣的採購呢我們可能他涉及違法那他就要盡到檢調比如說許前部長他不會是採購人員嗎他不會是第一線採購人員嗎對那如果是他那個沙龍罩那這個可能就我們可能就會請他那個單位我們會請他收回他就怎麼收回我們會瞭解他是不是向個人收回\n281539\t303117\t好 所以說在之後的一個﹐你們講的一個月的時間的報告提出報告的時候我可不可以拜託沈記長是否針對這一些你們認為有違法違規或是不當使用的一些經費你們評估一下哪些經費你們認為應該要踢除追繳哪一些不用那並把你們認為要不要的理由續名這可不可以\n304418\t331960\t可以 就到時候在報告裡面都可以看得一清二楚我們審計部的立場另外一點我先謝謝審計長那另外一點就是因為基金喔特別好用啦所以很多單位都喜歡用那我們就業安定基金他有沒有哪一項他的特別的可能業務啊或是等等他的功能有沒有什麼東西是本預算沒有辦法可能就是勞動部這個機關本預算沒有辦法來這個達成他的目標任務的\n337495\t354786\t我們的收入大概就是這個移工的移工的收入嘛對不對移工的這個雇主繳的錢那支出當然就是這是穩定我們的就業那這些預算用在基金邊跟本預算邊他如果說要把這些基金預算挪回來本預算的話有沒有自愛難行的地方\n355768\t382425\t就是預算編列的問題應該是沒有就是說救安基金他是有專用專款專用的一個性質他要用到那個法就業服務法裡面注定的促進國民就業提供勞工扶植這一方面他一定要用到他沒有用到這方面就是要在他的公務預算裡面編列不能在這裡來\n385967\t410829\t來編（來租用所以就是因為剛剛沈記長有跟大家說明救安基金這幾年操置並決算的情況非常嚴重這就是基金的好處大家都要用基金我可以操置我到時候再並決算就好了那照剛剛沈記長講的既然他的問題這麼嚴重前科雷雷那他又沒有那個絕對存在不可替代的必要的話那沈記長你認為救安基金\n412051\t438828\t如果說我們來提倡把他廢除的話您有沒有怎麼樣的個人意見把就業安定基金廢除回到勞動部的本預算去執行他的所有預算的收支就業安定基金是可以檢討廢除可能知識體大因為他已經行之三十幾年了所以有他的可是剛剛沈記長說他的所有的支出都應該都是可以編在本預算內啊\n440178\t464207\t然後他的撤職並決算的情況又這麼嚴重不受監督早年財政困難的時候有時候真的有一個專款專用對促進國民就業就提供勞工扶植會相當重要所以這個要慎重好沒關係那這一部分可不可以一併納入我們省機部的一個專案報告裡面\n465087\t492379\t好就是針對就位基金他存在的必要性如果說你們認為他有存在的必要的話那你就序明清楚讓大家知道你們的專業獨立的意見好謝謝好謝謝沈機長那另外一點就是我們立法院的預算中心定期也都會提供我們一些他們的審查的一些情況那我們的立法院預算中心提出提出幾個意見也有些意見就是針對中央政府的整體媒體宣傳費用的規模的增長那\n493980\t515720\t一部分是金額的提高一部分是有許多的部分機關就是他可能他把這個媒體的相關的費用閃編在公務或是非基金的非營業基金或是特別預算當中那沈記長您認為同樣一個可能他是同樣的一個主管同樣一個可以運用這些資金的人他把這些媒體的這個\n517923\t523961\t廣告的宣傳費用．拆散到不同的單位．部長．這個沈機長．您認為這樣是事宜的做法嗎?\n526518\t550293\t這個政慾先導經會我們專案查了三年三年都專案調查我們也提出了非常多的意見給行政院參考後來他也訂立了專項但是他有的是說他會放在婚姻樂園裡面也有公務也有所以但是我們在查核的時候我們會把這幾個一起\n552854\t554495\t是否有規避監督的想法?\n575899\t599239\t如果說我們過去都有在做一些專案在跟行政院來溝通的話代表說沈記長應該也是認為相關的媒體宣傳費用不只是媒體宣傳費用啦應該是相關的費用如果說能夠集中一個這個主管機關來編列的話對於我們事後的稽查或者是他的公開透明來講的話應該都是有正面的幫助委員這個意見很好但是行政部門啊他有他的考慮也有他的相當困難\n600046\t614040\t是,好,沒關係,那至少是省紀長是認同這樣子的意見那行政機關他們有如果說不這樣做的話他們應該要續名理由為什麼他們要這樣子做好,沒有問題,好謝謝,好謝謝省紀長那第三個,第三個我們來討論一下這個採購的一些這個問題啦\n617904\t631450\t那這個採購的問題如果說有一個機關他針對類似的品項招商招標有高度集中化的一個現象那您認為會有一些哪些的後遺症高\n633180\t654450\t高度集中化集中到某一個產家這個我們會注意要他多次都集中這個產家我們就會列為高度風險我們會專案查核我們先不要預測說這家廠商或者是採購過程中有沒有非法的部分我們不要預測他這樣子的一個現象對我們國家採購有沒有不良的一個影響\n655330\t682891\t一般大家公務機關如果他是優良的他可以幫忙這個機關我們大概就這個是因為他是有時候找他可以把他的整個建築各方面的採購做得很好也有他這個工程會也有鼓勵用這樣的一個方法但是我們目前我們對於這些採購一點差不多有\n685013\t702028\t有19萬件差不多有兩兆億元的採購我想跟審議長報告的是高度集中化會有依賴性過強的問題依賴性過強的問題不利於市場的公平競爭那你跟在廠方的這個談判或議約、議價之間你的主動權會相對的比這個\n707925\t720311\t這個這個充分競爭的一個市場來的第一嘛對不對是那所以說正在我們採購立場上我今天要提的是我們的國防預算我們這幾年其實在早年我們中華民國的國防的採購\n721796\t740611\t並沒有說這個專門要就是專門都向哪一個國家採購比如說我們過去常跟美國採購也會跟法國採購無論是我們的幻象戰機或者是我們的可能拉法葉艦雖然說它過程發生一些弊案但是我們原來這樣它的分散有分散的好處但是近年來我們中華民國呢\n741531\t764327\t軍備的採購長期的集中在美國這一個單一的國家那產生的長期的依賴性他就會產生了一些的後遺症產生後遺症比如說我們媒體常常報道說美軍相關的軍備採購案他常常會有延宕交貨的一塊的情形這部分應該我們審計部也都有在對國防部的時候也都會有集合到嘛\n764927\t789293\t有,像這個大概我們現在集合到的差不多有兩千多有兩千八百多億的備存帳在美國也有一千五百多億的那個延後交貨甚至是他可能是簽約了之後再預約也有可能預約之後他就不算在這裡面了\n793420\t813146\t這樣子的一個情形就會對於我們的充值我們的國防他絕對是一個潛在的一個因子我們今天花了那麼多錢他的東西沒有辦法如時如約的如期的來交貨就會對我們的國防產生了一個可能產生了一些漏洞那針對這個部分我不曉得國防部針對他們的機密預算我們審計部也有辦法集合到嗎\n814139\t826613\t都有都可以集合到大概經過案是高度的軍事和政治的一個因素還是有國家上位的政策還要考慮到國家整個國家安全各方面的事情\n833120\t857466\t但是就是可能近年包括我們國防部﹐給我們立法院的一個報告﹐包括我們的高效能反專甲飛彈﹐F16的一些性能提升﹐還有我們新式戰機的採購﹐在他們可能換約了之後還是有延宕的情形﹐那就可能會﹐他的更早的一個起因﹐可能是因為我們國軍長期以來依賴美軍﹐他認為我們只有單一的窗口﹐我們不會去跟英國﹐我們不會去跟法國﹐我們不會去跟其他國家來進行軍購﹐\n858926\t881298\t所以他可能在跟我們的談判上面他會比較強勢甚至美國他們對於這個海外軍售的制度是只要在發架書的最後年度前交貨就是可能會有這個階段性嘛他們不管階段性他們只管最後的這個年度前交貨就不算延遲那這樣子的一個合約的簽訂您認為是適當的嗎我們有請國防部檢討\n885611\t900271\t國防部檢討以後對於不管是任何國家只要有相關的軍備的採購案當初合約怎麼訂沒有特殊的原因那就必須要如期如約的來交貨\n901272\t924721\t那他們有相關的一些違約機制嗎?我們政府任何政府機關採購都會有違約的懲罰金啊那軍公案會有嗎?軍公案他在訂的時候是沒有我們目前沒有看也要求他我們在查核的時候發現這種現象所以我們也有要求國防部應該要有這樣的一個機制要去能夠對這一方面做一個要求那就麻煩我們審計部繼續針對上述的問題來提出一些建議給我們\n","txt":"好 謝謝院長 也要麻煩邀請我們陳機長麻煩陳省機長\n廖委員好沈機長好這個延續剛剛中委員的議題因為救安基金應該是國人最近非常關心的一個政府預算質詢的一個相當大的一個社會議題大家非常的關心那除了先前可能大家有提到的演唱會的問題啊辦公室優化\n等等的問題之外昨天在民眾黨有黨民眾黨也有召開相關的記者會也有提出一些其他相關的問題比如說媒體採購的限制性的招標問題或者是說他們的拍影片以及他的成效的問題那以及這個可能一些紀念品等等的\n那剛剛這個沈縣長說相關的救安基金的專案報告之前提一個院內會提出來嘛那譬如說以個人演唱會這件事情來講應該是2022年的時候的事情那我們在那件事情發生之後有沒有我們有沒有我們這個省基部有沒有提出任何的相關的報告或檢討針對救安基金的缺失提出相關的一些糾正有在新聞爆發之前\n第一個他連續3年啦虧了差不多200億要勞動部啊要去好好檢討第二個我們收回啊為何他救安基金用的收回他差不多沒有符合規定的租出3億多元\n第三個他在補助一些社會團體社會單位差不多100多家但是我們查這100多家長年連續三年都違反勞動法令要他要勞動部好好檢討\n大概我們都會就這些包括他的收支並結算我們都會提出來好所以針對就葉安丁基金長期來可能對我們省基部來說也算是長期的一個黑名單了啦應該是我們都會注意他會注意他特別他注意他的就這個使用的狀況有沒有符合我們的法令那按照我們的這個\n法定規定我們如果說在我們的預算使用上面依照我們審計法第21條如果說有各機關違背預算或者是有關法定的不當支出我們可以事後剔除追繳之那想請問一下那我們就是針對救安基金比如說剛剛大家最關心的開個人演唱會或者是辦公室裝潢的這個部分我們後續會不會提出這個剔除以及追繳\n八位委員我們所謂因為這個大家全國人民關心我們已經派我們的同仁去查核是初步發現為符合基金用途的有將近五千多億五千多萬五千多萬抱歉五千多萬這五千多萬我們大概會收回會幫忙收回像這個和採購異常的或者這個我們會移送檢調\n像未竟執著的我們會移送監察案那剛剛上面講的這些都是有包含剔除跟追繳嗎?\n大部分都收回的地方就是如果他有一些很明確的違背法令我們就會追繳或剔除追繳那這個追繳的對象是因為要回去看這個責任我們會請勞動部去這個問題給他他會給我們回覆會順路當然大家最關心追繳的對象是誰你是跟機關追繳還是跟違法運用經費的這個當時的這個公職人員來追繳\n因為這個是這樣\n這兩個都可能要看你們後續的調查採購人員因為這個為什麼要做這樣的採購呢我們可能他涉及違法那他就要盡到檢調比如說許前部長他不會是採購人員嗎他不會是第一線採購人員嗎對那如果是他那個沙龍罩那這個可能就我們可能就會請他那個單位我們會請他收回他就怎麼收回我們會瞭解他是不是向個人收回\n好 所以說在之後的一個﹐你們講的一個月的時間的報告提出報告的時候我可不可以拜託沈記長是否針對這一些你們認為有違法違規或是不當使用的一些經費你們評估一下哪些經費你們認為應該要踢除追繳哪一些不用那並把你們認為要不要的理由續名這可不可以\n可以 就到時候在報告裡面都可以看得一清二楚我們審計部的立場另外一點我先謝謝審計長那另外一點就是因為基金喔特別好用啦所以很多單位都喜歡用那我們就業安定基金他有沒有哪一項他的特別的可能業務啊或是等等他的功能有沒有什麼東西是本預算沒有辦法可能就是勞動部這個機關本預算沒有辦法來這個達成他的目標任務的\n我們的收入大概就是這個移工的移工的收入嘛對不對移工的這個雇主繳的錢那支出當然就是這是穩定我們的就業那這些預算用在基金邊跟本預算邊他如果說要把這些基金預算挪回來本預算的話有沒有自愛難行的地方\n就是預算編列的問題應該是沒有就是說救安基金他是有專用專款專用的一個性質他要用到那個法就業服務法裡面注定的促進國民就業提供勞工扶植這一方面他一定要用到他沒有用到這方面就是要在他的公務預算裡面編列不能在這裡來\n來編（來租用所以就是因為剛剛沈記長有跟大家說明救安基金這幾年操置並決算的情況非常嚴重這就是基金的好處大家都要用基金我可以操置我到時候再並決算就好了那照剛剛沈記長講的既然他的問題這麼嚴重前科雷雷那他又沒有那個絕對存在不可替代的必要的話那沈記長你認為救安基金\n如果說我們來提倡把他廢除的話您有沒有怎麼樣的個人意見把就業安定基金廢除回到勞動部的本預算去執行他的所有預算的收支就業安定基金是可以檢討廢除可能知識體大因為他已經行之三十幾年了所以有他的可是剛剛沈記長說他的所有的支出都應該都是可以編在本預算內啊\n然後他的撤職並決算的情況又這麼嚴重不受監督早年財政困難的時候有時候真的有一個專款專用對促進國民就業就提供勞工扶植會相當重要所以這個要慎重好沒關係那這一部分可不可以一併納入我們省機部的一個專案報告裡面\n好就是針對就位基金他存在的必要性如果說你們認為他有存在的必要的話那你就序明清楚讓大家知道你們的專業獨立的意見好謝謝好謝謝沈機長那另外一點就是我們立法院的預算中心定期也都會提供我們一些他們的審查的一些情況那我們的立法院預算中心提出提出幾個意見也有些意見就是針對中央政府的整體媒體宣傳費用的規模的增長那\n一部分是金額的提高一部分是有許多的部分機關就是他可能他把這個媒體的相關的費用閃編在公務或是非基金的非營業基金或是特別預算當中那沈記長您認為同樣一個可能他是同樣的一個主管同樣一個可以運用這些資金的人他把這些媒體的這個\n廣告的宣傳費用．拆散到不同的單位．部長．這個沈機長．您認為這樣是事宜的做法嗎?\n這個政慾先導經會我們專案查了三年三年都專案調查我們也提出了非常多的意見給行政院參考後來他也訂立了專項但是他有的是說他會放在婚姻樂園裡面也有公務也有所以但是我們在查核的時候我們會把這幾個一起\n是否有規避監督的想法?\n如果說我們過去都有在做一些專案在跟行政院來溝通的話代表說沈記長應該也是認為相關的媒體宣傳費用不只是媒體宣傳費用啦應該是相關的費用如果說能夠集中一個這個主管機關來編列的話對於我們事後的稽查或者是他的公開透明來講的話應該都是有正面的幫助委員這個意見很好但是行政部門啊他有他的考慮也有他的相當困難\n是,好,沒關係,那至少是省紀長是認同這樣子的意見那行政機關他們有如果說不這樣做的話他們應該要續名理由為什麼他們要這樣子做好,沒有問題,好謝謝,好謝謝省紀長那第三個,第三個我們來討論一下這個採購的一些這個問題啦\n那這個採購的問題如果說有一個機關他針對類似的品項招商招標有高度集中化的一個現象那您認為會有一些哪些的後遺症高\n高度集中化集中到某一個產家這個我們會注意要他多次都集中這個產家我們就會列為高度風險我們會專案查核我們先不要預測說這家廠商或者是採購過程中有沒有非法的部分我們不要預測他這樣子的一個現象對我們國家採購有沒有不良的一個影響\n一般大家公務機關如果他是優良的他可以幫忙這個機關我們大概就這個是因為他是有時候找他可以把他的整個建築各方面的採購做得很好也有他這個工程會也有鼓勵用這樣的一個方法但是我們目前我們對於這些採購一點差不多有\n有19萬件差不多有兩兆億元的採購我想跟審議長報告的是高度集中化會有依賴性過強的問題依賴性過強的問題不利於市場的公平競爭那你跟在廠方的這個談判或議約、議價之間你的主動權會相對的比這個\n這個這個充分競爭的一個市場來的第一嘛對不對是那所以說正在我們採購立場上我今天要提的是我們的國防預算我們這幾年其實在早年我們中華民國的國防的採購\n並沒有說這個專門要就是專門都向哪一個國家採購比如說我們過去常跟美國採購也會跟法國採購無論是我們的幻象戰機或者是我們的可能拉法葉艦雖然說它過程發生一些弊案但是我們原來這樣它的分散有分散的好處但是近年來我們中華民國呢\n軍備的採購長期的集中在美國這一個單一的國家那產生的長期的依賴性他就會產生了一些的後遺症產生後遺症比如說我們媒體常常報道說美軍相關的軍備採購案他常常會有延宕交貨的一塊的情形這部分應該我們審計部也都有在對國防部的時候也都會有集合到嘛\n有,像這個大概我們現在集合到的差不多有兩千多有兩千八百多億的備存帳在美國也有一千五百多億的那個延後交貨甚至是他可能是簽約了之後再預約也有可能預約之後他就不算在這裡面了\n這樣子的一個情形就會對於我們的充值我們的國防他絕對是一個潛在的一個因子我們今天花了那麼多錢他的東西沒有辦法如時如約的如期的來交貨就會對我們的國防產生了一個可能產生了一些漏洞那針對這個部分我不曉得國防部針對他們的機密預算我們審計部也有辦法集合到嗎\n都有都可以集合到大概經過案是高度的軍事和政治的一個因素還是有國家上位的政策還要考慮到國家整個國家安全各方面的事情\n但是就是可能近年包括我們國防部﹐給我們立法院的一個報告﹐包括我們的高效能反專甲飛彈﹐F16的一些性能提升﹐還有我們新式戰機的採購﹐在他們可能換約了之後還是有延宕的情形﹐那就可能會﹐他的更早的一個起因﹐可能是因為我們國軍長期以來依賴美軍﹐他認為我們只有單一的窗口﹐我們不會去跟英國﹐我們不會去跟法國﹐我們不會去跟其他國家來進行軍購﹐\n所以他可能在跟我們的談判上面他會比較強勢甚至美國他們對於這個海外軍售的制度是只要在發架書的最後年度前交貨就是可能會有這個階段性嘛他們不管階段性他們只管最後的這個年度前交貨就不算延遲那這樣子的一個合約的簽訂您認為是適當的嗎我們有請國防部檢討\n國防部檢討以後對於不管是任何國家只要有相關的軍備的採購案當初合約怎麼訂沒有特殊的原因那就必須要如期如約的來交貨\n那他們有相關的一些違約機制嗎?我們政府任何政府機關採購都會有違約的懲罰金啊那軍公案會有嗎?軍公案他在訂的時候是沒有我們目前沒有看也要求他我們在查核的時候發現這種現象所以我們也有要求國防部應該要有這樣的一個機制要去能夠對這一方面做一個要求那就麻煩我們審計部繼續針對上述的問題來提出一些建議給我們\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:13.168 --> 00:15.534\n好謝謝院長也要麻煩邀請我們陳機長麻煩陳省機長\n\n00:24.005 --> 00:42.608\n廖委員好沈機長好這個延續剛剛中委員的議題因為救安基金應該是國人最近非常關心的一個政府預算質詢的一個相當大的一個社會議題大家非常的關心那除了先前可能大家有提到的演唱會的問題啊辦公室優化\n\n00:44.069 --> 01:02.763\n等等的問題之外昨天在民眾黨有黨民眾黨也有召開相關的記者會也有提出一些其他相關的問題比如說媒體採購的限制性的招標問題或者是說他們的拍影片以及他的成效的問題那以及這個可能一些紀念品等等的\n\n01:03.223 --> 01:29.671\n那剛剛這個沈縣長說相關的救安基金的專案報告之前提一個院內會提出來嘛那譬如說以個人演唱會這件事情來講應該是2022年的時候的事情那我們在那件事情發生之後有沒有我們有沒有我們這個省基部有沒有提出任何的相關的報告或檢討針對救安基金的缺失提出相關的一些糾正有在新聞爆發之前\n\n01:30.593 --> 01:49.347\n第一個他連續3年啦虧了差不多200億要勞動部啊要去好好檢討第二個我們收回啊為何他救安基金用的收回他差不多沒有符合規定的租出3億多元\n\n01:50.368 --> 02:06.890\n第三個他在補助一些社會團體社會單位差不多100多家但是我們查這100多家長年連續三年都違反勞動法令要他要勞動部好好檢討\n\n02:07.911 --> 02:30.346\n大概我們都會就這些包括他的收支並結算我們都會提出來好所以針對就葉安丁基金長期來可能對我們省基部來說也算是長期的一個黑名單了啦應該是我們都會注意他會注意他特別他注意他的就這個使用的狀況有沒有符合我們的法令那按照我們的這個\n\n02:32.079 --> 03:00.569\n法定規定我們如果說在我們的預算使用上面依照我們審計法第21條如果說有各機關違背預算或者是有關法定的不當支出我們可以事後剔除追繳之那想請問一下那我們就是針對救安基金比如說剛剛大家最關心的開個人演唱會或者是辦公室裝潢的這個部分我們後續會不會提出這個剔除以及追繳\n\n03:01.798 --> 03:29.178\n八位委員我們所謂因為這個大家全國人民關心我們已經派我們的同仁去查核是初步發現為符合基金用途的有將近五千多億五千多萬五千多萬抱歉五千多萬這五千多萬我們大概會收回會幫忙收回像這個和採購異常的或者這個我們會移送檢調\n\n03:30.740 --> 03:37.839\n像未竟執著的我們會移送監察案那剛剛上面講的這些都是有包含剔除跟追繳嗎?\n\n03:39.366 --> 04:03.222\n大部分都收回的地方就是如果他有一些很明確的違背法令我們就會追繳或剔除追繳那這個追繳的對象是因為要回去看這個責任我們會請勞動部去這個問題給他他會給我們回覆會順路當然大家最關心追繳的對象是誰你是跟機關追繳還是跟違法運用經費的這個當時的這個公職人員來追繳\n\n04:09.088 --> 04:09.169\n因為這個是這樣\n\n04:12.733 --> 04:41.179\n這兩個都可能要看你們後續的調查採購人員因為這個為什麼要做這樣的採購呢我們可能他涉及違法那他就要盡到檢調比如說許前部長他不會是採購人員嗎他不會是第一線採購人員嗎對那如果是他那個沙龍罩那這個可能就我們可能就會請他那個單位我們會請他收回他就怎麼收回我們會瞭解他是不是向個人收回\n\n04:41.539 --> 05:03.117\n好所以說在之後的一個﹐你們講的一個月的時間的報告提出報告的時候我可不可以拜託沈記長是否針對這一些你們認為有違法違規或是不當使用的一些經費你們評估一下哪些經費你們認為應該要踢除追繳哪一些不用那並把你們認為要不要的理由續名這可不可以\n\n05:04.418 --> 05:31.960\n可以就到時候在報告裡面都可以看得一清二楚我們審計部的立場另外一點我先謝謝審計長那另外一點就是因為基金喔特別好用啦所以很多單位都喜歡用那我們就業安定基金他有沒有哪一項他的特別的可能業務啊或是等等他的功能有沒有什麼東西是本預算沒有辦法可能就是勞動部這個機關本預算沒有辦法來這個達成他的目標任務的\n\n05:37.495 --> 05:54.786\n我們的收入大概就是這個移工的移工的收入嘛對不對移工的這個雇主繳的錢那支出當然就是這是穩定我們的就業那這些預算用在基金邊跟本預算邊他如果說要把這些基金預算挪回來本預算的話有沒有自愛難行的地方\n\n05:55.768 --> 06:22.425\n就是預算編列的問題應該是沒有就是說救安基金他是有專用專款專用的一個性質他要用到那個法就業服務法裡面注定的促進國民就業提供勞工扶植這一方面他一定要用到他沒有用到這方面就是要在他的公務預算裡面編列不能在這裡來\n\n06:25.967 --> 06:50.829\n來編（來租用所以就是因為剛剛沈記長有跟大家說明救安基金這幾年操置並決算的情況非常嚴重這就是基金的好處大家都要用基金我可以操置我到時候再並決算就好了那照剛剛沈記長講的既然他的問題這麼嚴重前科雷雷那他又沒有那個絕對存在不可替代的必要的話那沈記長你認為救安基金\n\n06:52.051 --> 07:18.828\n如果說我們來提倡把他廢除的話您有沒有怎麼樣的個人意見把就業安定基金廢除回到勞動部的本預算去執行他的所有預算的收支就業安定基金是可以檢討廢除可能知識體大因為他已經行之三十幾年了所以有他的可是剛剛沈記長說他的所有的支出都應該都是可以編在本預算內啊\n\n07:20.178 --> 07:44.207\n然後他的撤職並決算的情況又這麼嚴重不受監督早年財政困難的時候有時候真的有一個專款專用對促進國民就業就提供勞工扶植會相當重要所以這個要慎重好沒關係那這一部分可不可以一併納入我們省機部的一個專案報告裡面\n\n07:45.087 --> 08:12.379\n好就是針對就位基金他存在的必要性如果說你們認為他有存在的必要的話那你就序明清楚讓大家知道你們的專業獨立的意見好謝謝好謝謝沈機長那另外一點就是我們立法院的預算中心定期也都會提供我們一些他們的審查的一些情況那我們的立法院預算中心提出提出幾個意見也有些意見就是針對中央政府的整體媒體宣傳費用的規模的增長那\n\n08:13.980 --> 08:35.720\n一部分是金額的提高一部分是有許多的部分機關就是他可能他把這個媒體的相關的費用閃編在公務或是非基金的非營業基金或是特別預算當中那沈記長您認為同樣一個可能他是同樣的一個主管同樣一個可以運用這些資金的人他把這些媒體的這個\n\n08:37.923 --> 08:43.961\n廣告的宣傳費用．拆散到不同的單位．部長．這個沈機長．您認為這樣是事宜的做法嗎?\n\n08:46.518 --> 09:10.293\n這個政慾先導經會我們專案查了三年三年都專案調查我們也提出了非常多的意見給行政院參考後來他也訂立了專項但是他有的是說他會放在婚姻樂園裡面也有公務也有所以但是我們在查核的時候我們會把這幾個一起\n\n09:12.854 --> 09:14.495\n是否有規避監督的想法?\n\n09:35.899 --> 09:59.239\n如果說我們過去都有在做一些專案在跟行政院來溝通的話代表說沈記長應該也是認為相關的媒體宣傳費用不只是媒體宣傳費用啦應該是相關的費用如果說能夠集中一個這個主管機關來編列的話對於我們事後的稽查或者是他的公開透明來講的話應該都是有正面的幫助委員這個意見很好但是行政部門啊他有他的考慮也有他的相當困難\n\n10:00.046 --> 10:14.040\n是,好,沒關係,那至少是省紀長是認同這樣子的意見那行政機關他們有如果說不這樣做的話他們應該要續名理由為什麼他們要這樣子做好,沒有問題,好謝謝,好謝謝省紀長那第三個,第三個我們來討論一下這個採購的一些這個問題啦\n\n10:17.904 --> 10:31.450\n那這個採購的問題如果說有一個機關他針對類似的品項招商招標有高度集中化的一個現象那您認為會有一些哪些的後遺症高\n\n10:33.180 --> 10:54.450\n高度集中化集中到某一個產家這個我們會注意要他多次都集中這個產家我們就會列為高度風險我們會專案查核我們先不要預測說這家廠商或者是採購過程中有沒有非法的部分我們不要預測他這樣子的一個現象對我們國家採購有沒有不良的一個影響\n\n10:55.330 --> 11:22.891\n一般大家公務機關如果他是優良的他可以幫忙這個機關我們大概就這個是因為他是有時候找他可以把他的整個建築各方面的採購做得很好也有他這個工程會也有鼓勵用這樣的一個方法但是我們目前我們對於這些採購一點差不多有\n\n11:25.013 --> 11:42.028\n有19萬件差不多有兩兆億元的採購我想跟審議長報告的是高度集中化會有依賴性過強的問題依賴性過強的問題不利於市場的公平競爭那你跟在廠方的這個談判或議約、議價之間你的主動權會相對的比這個\n\n11:47.925 --> 12:00.311\n這個這個充分競爭的一個市場來的第一嘛對不對是那所以說正在我們採購立場上我今天要提的是我們的國防預算我們這幾年其實在早年我們中華民國的國防的採購\n\n12:01.796 --> 12:20.611\n並沒有說這個專門要就是專門都向哪一個國家採購比如說我們過去常跟美國採購也會跟法國採購無論是我們的幻象戰機或者是我們的可能拉法葉艦雖然說它過程發生一些弊案但是我們原來這樣它的分散有分散的好處但是近年來我們中華民國呢\n\n12:21.531 --> 12:44.327\n軍備的採購長期的集中在美國這一個單一的國家那產生的長期的依賴性他就會產生了一些的後遺症產生後遺症比如說我們媒體常常報道說美軍相關的軍備採購案他常常會有延宕交貨的一塊的情形這部分應該我們審計部也都有在對國防部的時候也都會有集合到嘛\n\n12:44.927 --> 13:09.293\n有,像這個大概我們現在集合到的差不多有兩千多有兩千八百多億的備存帳在美國也有一千五百多億的那個延後交貨甚至是他可能是簽約了之後再預約也有可能預約之後他就不算在這裡面了\n\n13:13.420 --> 13:33.146\n這樣子的一個情形就會對於我們的充值我們的國防他絕對是一個潛在的一個因子我們今天花了那麼多錢他的東西沒有辦法如時如約的如期的來交貨就會對我們的國防產生了一個可能產生了一些漏洞那針對這個部分我不曉得國防部針對他們的機密預算我們審計部也有辦法集合到嗎\n\n13:34.139 --> 13:46.613\n都有都可以集合到大概經過案是高度的軍事和政治的一個因素還是有國家上位的政策還要考慮到國家整個國家安全各方面的事情\n\n13:53.120 --> 14:17.466\n但是就是可能近年包括我們國防部﹐給我們立法院的一個報告﹐包括我們的高效能反專甲飛彈﹐F16的一些性能提升﹐還有我們新式戰機的採購﹐在他們可能換約了之後還是有延宕的情形﹐那就可能會﹐他的更早的一個起因﹐可能是因為我們國軍長期以來依賴美軍﹐他認為我們只有單一的窗口﹐我們不會去跟英國﹐我們不會去跟法國﹐我們不會去跟其他國家來進行軍購﹐\n\n14:18.926 --> 14:41.298\n所以他可能在跟我們的談判上面他會比較強勢甚至美國他們對於這個海外軍售的制度是只要在發架書的最後年度前交貨就是可能會有這個階段性嘛他們不管階段性他們只管最後的這個年度前交貨就不算延遲那這樣子的一個合約的簽訂您認為是適當的嗎我們有請國防部檢討\n\n14:45.611 --> 15:00.271\n國防部檢討以後對於不管是任何國家只要有相關的軍備的採購案當初合約怎麼訂沒有特殊的原因那就必須要如期如約的來交貨\n\n15:01.272 --> 15:24.721\n那他們有相關的一些違約機制嗎?我們政府任何政府機關採購都會有違約的懲罰金啊那軍公案會有嗎?軍公案他在訂的時候是沒有我們目前沒有看也要求他我們在查核的時候發現這種現象所以我們也有要求國防部應該要有這樣的一個機制要去能夠對這一方面做一個要求那就麻煩我們審計部繼續針對上述的問題來提出一些建議給我們\n\n","segments":[{"start":13.168,"end":15.534,"text":"好 謝謝院長 也要麻煩邀請我們陳機長麻煩陳省機長"},{"start":24.005,"end":42.608,"text":"廖委員好沈機長好這個延續剛剛中委員的議題因為救安基金應該是國人最近非常關心的一個政府預算質詢的一個相當大的一個社會議題大家非常的關心那除了先前可能大家有提到的演唱會的問題啊辦公室優化"},{"start":44.069,"end":62.763,"text":"等等的問題之外昨天在民眾黨有黨民眾黨也有召開相關的記者會也有提出一些其他相關的問題比如說媒體採購的限制性的招標問題或者是說他們的拍影片以及他的成效的問題那以及這個可能一些紀念品等等的"},{"start":63.223,"end":89.671,"text":"那剛剛這個沈縣長說相關的救安基金的專案報告之前提一個院內會提出來嘛那譬如說以個人演唱會這件事情來講應該是2022年的時候的事情那我們在那件事情發生之後有沒有我們有沒有我們這個省基部有沒有提出任何的相關的報告或檢討針對救安基金的缺失提出相關的一些糾正有在新聞爆發之前"},{"start":90.593,"end":109.347,"text":"第一個他連續3年啦虧了差不多200億要勞動部啊要去好好檢討第二個我們收回啊為何他救安基金用的收回他差不多沒有符合規定的租出3億多元"},{"start":110.368,"end":126.89,"text":"第三個他在補助一些社會團體社會單位差不多100多家但是我們查這100多家長年連續三年都違反勞動法令要他要勞動部好好檢討"},{"start":127.911,"end":150.346,"text":"大概我們都會就這些包括他的收支並結算我們都會提出來好所以針對就葉安丁基金長期來可能對我們省基部來說也算是長期的一個黑名單了啦應該是我們都會注意他會注意他特別他注意他的就這個使用的狀況有沒有符合我們的法令那按照我們的這個"},{"start":152.079,"end":180.569,"text":"法定規定我們如果說在我們的預算使用上面依照我們審計法第21條如果說有各機關違背預算或者是有關法定的不當支出我們可以事後剔除追繳之那想請問一下那我們就是針對救安基金比如說剛剛大家最關心的開個人演唱會或者是辦公室裝潢的這個部分我們後續會不會提出這個剔除以及追繳"},{"start":181.798,"end":209.178,"text":"八位委員我們所謂因為這個大家全國人民關心我們已經派我們的同仁去查核是初步發現為符合基金用途的有將近五千多億五千多萬五千多萬抱歉五千多萬這五千多萬我們大概會收回會幫忙收回像這個和採購異常的或者這個我們會移送檢調"},{"start":210.74,"end":217.839,"text":"像未竟執著的我們會移送監察案那剛剛上面講的這些都是有包含剔除跟追繳嗎?"},{"start":219.366,"end":243.222,"text":"大部分都收回的地方就是如果他有一些很明確的違背法令我們就會追繳或剔除追繳那這個追繳的對象是因為要回去看這個責任我們會請勞動部去這個問題給他他會給我們回覆會順路當然大家最關心追繳的對象是誰你是跟機關追繳還是跟違法運用經費的這個當時的這個公職人員來追繳"},{"start":249.088,"end":249.169,"text":"因為這個是這樣"},{"start":252.733,"end":281.179,"text":"這兩個都可能要看你們後續的調查採購人員因為這個為什麼要做這樣的採購呢我們可能他涉及違法那他就要盡到檢調比如說許前部長他不會是採購人員嗎他不會是第一線採購人員嗎對那如果是他那個沙龍罩那這個可能就我們可能就會請他那個單位我們會請他收回他就怎麼收回我們會瞭解他是不是向個人收回"},{"start":281.539,"end":303.117,"text":"好 所以說在之後的一個﹐你們講的一個月的時間的報告提出報告的時候我可不可以拜託沈記長是否針對這一些你們認為有違法違規或是不當使用的一些經費你們評估一下哪些經費你們認為應該要踢除追繳哪一些不用那並把你們認為要不要的理由續名這可不可以"},{"start":304.418,"end":331.96,"text":"可以 就到時候在報告裡面都可以看得一清二楚我們審計部的立場另外一點我先謝謝審計長那另外一點就是因為基金喔特別好用啦所以很多單位都喜歡用那我們就業安定基金他有沒有哪一項他的特別的可能業務啊或是等等他的功能有沒有什麼東西是本預算沒有辦法可能就是勞動部這個機關本預算沒有辦法來這個達成他的目標任務的"},{"start":337.495,"end":354.786,"text":"我們的收入大概就是這個移工的移工的收入嘛對不對移工的這個雇主繳的錢那支出當然就是這是穩定我們的就業那這些預算用在基金邊跟本預算邊他如果說要把這些基金預算挪回來本預算的話有沒有自愛難行的地方"},{"start":355.768,"end":382.425,"text":"就是預算編列的問題應該是沒有就是說救安基金他是有專用專款專用的一個性質他要用到那個法就業服務法裡面注定的促進國民就業提供勞工扶植這一方面他一定要用到他沒有用到這方面就是要在他的公務預算裡面編列不能在這裡來"},{"start":385.967,"end":410.829,"text":"來編（來租用所以就是因為剛剛沈記長有跟大家說明救安基金這幾年操置並決算的情況非常嚴重這就是基金的好處大家都要用基金我可以操置我到時候再並決算就好了那照剛剛沈記長講的既然他的問題這麼嚴重前科雷雷那他又沒有那個絕對存在不可替代的必要的話那沈記長你認為救安基金"},{"start":412.051,"end":438.828,"text":"如果說我們來提倡把他廢除的話您有沒有怎麼樣的個人意見把就業安定基金廢除回到勞動部的本預算去執行他的所有預算的收支就業安定基金是可以檢討廢除可能知識體大因為他已經行之三十幾年了所以有他的可是剛剛沈記長說他的所有的支出都應該都是可以編在本預算內啊"},{"start":440.178,"end":464.207,"text":"然後他的撤職並決算的情況又這麼嚴重不受監督早年財政困難的時候有時候真的有一個專款專用對促進國民就業就提供勞工扶植會相當重要所以這個要慎重好沒關係那這一部分可不可以一併納入我們省機部的一個專案報告裡面"},{"start":465.087,"end":492.379,"text":"好就是針對就位基金他存在的必要性如果說你們認為他有存在的必要的話那你就序明清楚讓大家知道你們的專業獨立的意見好謝謝好謝謝沈機長那另外一點就是我們立法院的預算中心定期也都會提供我們一些他們的審查的一些情況那我們的立法院預算中心提出提出幾個意見也有些意見就是針對中央政府的整體媒體宣傳費用的規模的增長那"},{"start":493.98,"end":515.72,"text":"一部分是金額的提高一部分是有許多的部分機關就是他可能他把這個媒體的相關的費用閃編在公務或是非基金的非營業基金或是特別預算當中那沈記長您認為同樣一個可能他是同樣的一個主管同樣一個可以運用這些資金的人他把這些媒體的這個"},{"start":517.923,"end":523.961,"text":"廣告的宣傳費用．拆散到不同的單位．部長．這個沈機長．您認為這樣是事宜的做法嗎?"},{"start":526.518,"end":550.293,"text":"這個政慾先導經會我們專案查了三年三年都專案調查我們也提出了非常多的意見給行政院參考後來他也訂立了專項但是他有的是說他會放在婚姻樂園裡面也有公務也有所以但是我們在查核的時候我們會把這幾個一起"},{"start":552.854,"end":554.495,"text":"是否有規避監督的想法?"},{"start":575.899,"end":599.239,"text":"如果說我們過去都有在做一些專案在跟行政院來溝通的話代表說沈記長應該也是認為相關的媒體宣傳費用不只是媒體宣傳費用啦應該是相關的費用如果說能夠集中一個這個主管機關來編列的話對於我們事後的稽查或者是他的公開透明來講的話應該都是有正面的幫助委員這個意見很好但是行政部門啊他有他的考慮也有他的相當困難"},{"start":600.046,"end":614.04,"text":"是,好,沒關係,那至少是省紀長是認同這樣子的意見那行政機關他們有如果說不這樣做的話他們應該要續名理由為什麼他們要這樣子做好,沒有問題,好謝謝,好謝謝省紀長那第三個,第三個我們來討論一下這個採購的一些這個問題啦"},{"start":617.904,"end":631.45,"text":"那這個採購的問題如果說有一個機關他針對類似的品項招商招標有高度集中化的一個現象那您認為會有一些哪些的後遺症高"},{"start":633.18,"end":654.45,"text":"高度集中化集中到某一個產家這個我們會注意要他多次都集中這個產家我們就會列為高度風險我們會專案查核我們先不要預測說這家廠商或者是採購過程中有沒有非法的部分我們不要預測他這樣子的一個現象對我們國家採購有沒有不良的一個影響"},{"start":655.33,"end":682.891,"text":"一般大家公務機關如果他是優良的他可以幫忙這個機關我們大概就這個是因為他是有時候找他可以把他的整個建築各方面的採購做得很好也有他這個工程會也有鼓勵用這樣的一個方法但是我們目前我們對於這些採購一點差不多有"},{"start":685.013,"end":702.028,"text":"有19萬件差不多有兩兆億元的採購我想跟審議長報告的是高度集中化會有依賴性過強的問題依賴性過強的問題不利於市場的公平競爭那你跟在廠方的這個談判或議約、議價之間你的主動權會相對的比這個"},{"start":707.925,"end":720.311,"text":"這個這個充分競爭的一個市場來的第一嘛對不對是那所以說正在我們採購立場上我今天要提的是我們的國防預算我們這幾年其實在早年我們中華民國的國防的採購"},{"start":721.796,"end":740.611,"text":"並沒有說這個專門要就是專門都向哪一個國家採購比如說我們過去常跟美國採購也會跟法國採購無論是我們的幻象戰機或者是我們的可能拉法葉艦雖然說它過程發生一些弊案但是我們原來這樣它的分散有分散的好處但是近年來我們中華民國呢"},{"start":741.531,"end":764.327,"text":"軍備的採購長期的集中在美國這一個單一的國家那產生的長期的依賴性他就會產生了一些的後遺症產生後遺症比如說我們媒體常常報道說美軍相關的軍備採購案他常常會有延宕交貨的一塊的情形這部分應該我們審計部也都有在對國防部的時候也都會有集合到嘛"},{"start":764.927,"end":789.293,"text":"有,像這個大概我們現在集合到的差不多有兩千多有兩千八百多億的備存帳在美國也有一千五百多億的那個延後交貨甚至是他可能是簽約了之後再預約也有可能預約之後他就不算在這裡面了"},{"start":793.42,"end":813.146,"text":"這樣子的一個情形就會對於我們的充值我們的國防他絕對是一個潛在的一個因子我們今天花了那麼多錢他的東西沒有辦法如時如約的如期的來交貨就會對我們的國防產生了一個可能產生了一些漏洞那針對這個部分我不曉得國防部針對他們的機密預算我們審計部也有辦法集合到嗎"},{"start":814.139,"end":826.613,"text":"都有都可以集合到大概經過案是高度的軍事和政治的一個因素還是有國家上位的政策還要考慮到國家整個國家安全各方面的事情"},{"start":833.12,"end":857.466,"text":"但是就是可能近年包括我們國防部﹐給我們立法院的一個報告﹐包括我們的高效能反專甲飛彈﹐F16的一些性能提升﹐還有我們新式戰機的採購﹐在他們可能換約了之後還是有延宕的情形﹐那就可能會﹐他的更早的一個起因﹐可能是因為我們國軍長期以來依賴美軍﹐他認為我們只有單一的窗口﹐我們不會去跟英國﹐我們不會去跟法國﹐我們不會去跟其他國家來進行軍購﹐"},{"start":858.926,"end":881.298,"text":"所以他可能在跟我們的談判上面他會比較強勢甚至美國他們對於這個海外軍售的制度是只要在發架書的最後年度前交貨就是可能會有這個階段性嘛他們不管階段性他們只管最後的這個年度前交貨就不算延遲那這樣子的一個合約的簽訂您認為是適當的嗎我們有請國防部檢討"},{"start":885.611,"end":900.271,"text":"國防部檢討以後對於不管是任何國家只要有相關的軍備的採購案當初合約怎麼訂沒有特殊的原因那就必須要如期如約的來交貨"},{"start":901.272,"end":924.721,"text":"那他們有相關的一些違約機制嗎?我們政府任何政府機關採購都會有違約的懲罰金啊那軍公案會有嗎?軍公案他在訂的時候是沒有我們目前沒有看也要求他我們在查核的時候發現這種現象所以我們也有要求國防部應該要有這樣的一個機制要去能夠對這一方面做一個要求那就麻煩我們審計部繼續針對上述的問題來提出一些建議給我們"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":192,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（14時59分）謝謝院長，一樣麻煩邀請審計長。"],["主席：麻煩陳審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：廖委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：審計長好。延續剛剛鍾委員的議題，就安基金應該是國人最近非常關心，也是政府預算執行的一個相當大的社會議題。除了先前可能大家提到的演唱會的問題、辦公室優化等等的問題之外，昨天友黨民眾黨也召開相關的記者會，也有提出一些其他的相關問題，譬如媒體採購限制性招標的問題，或者是他們拍影片及其成效的問題，以及一些紀念品等等。剛剛審計長說針對就安基金相關的專案報告，之前說一個月內會提出來，譬如以個人演唱會這件事情來講，這應該是2022年那時候的事情，在那一件事情發生之後，審計部有沒有提出任何的相關報告或檢討，針對就安基金的缺失提出相關的糾正？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有。"],["廖委員先翔：在新聞爆發之前？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：第一個，它連續三年虧了差不多200億，我們要求勞動部要好好檢討。第二個，我們收回就安基金沒有符合規定的支出三億多元。第三個，它補助事業單位差不多一百多家，但是我們查這一百多家連續三年都違反勞動法令，所以我們要求勞動部要好好檢討。我們都會就這些事項，包括它的收支併決算，我們都會提出來。"],["廖委員先翔：所以就業安定基金對審計部來說，可能也算是長期的黑名單了，它的缺失案件特別多。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該是我們都會注意它。"],["廖委員先翔：特別注意它的使用狀況有沒有符合我們的法令嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["廖委員先翔：按照我們的法令規定，就預算使用而言，依照審計法第二十一條，如果各機關違背預算或有關法令的不當支出，我們可以事後剔除追繳之。我想請問一下，針對就安基金的支出，譬如剛剛大家最關心的開個人演唱會，或者是辦公室裝潢的部分，後續會不會提出剔除以及追繳？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：報告委員，因為這個問題全國人民都關心，我們在12月初已經派同仁去查核，初步發現未符合基金用途的有五千多萬，這五千多萬我們大概會幫忙收回，採購異常的我們會移送檢調，未盡職責的我們會移送監察院。"],["廖委員先翔：剛剛上面講的這一些都有包含剔除跟追繳嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：大部分收回的地方……"],["廖委員先翔：收回就是……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：如果它有一些很明確的違背法令，我們就會追繳或剔除。"],["廖委員先翔：這個追繳的對象是？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為要回去看責任歸屬，我們會把這個問題給勞動部，它會給我們申覆。"],["廖委員先翔：大家最關心追繳的對象是誰？是跟機關追繳，還是跟當時違法運用經費的公職人員追繳？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個是這樣，如果……"],["廖委員先翔：還是兩個都有可能？要看你們後續的調查？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：像採購人員，為什麼要做這樣的採購呢？可能他涉及違法，那他就要進到檢調。"],["廖委員先翔：比如許前部長，他不會是第一線採購人員啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，如果是他的沙龍照，那我們可能就會請那個單位收回，至於它怎麼收回，我們會了解它是不是向個人收回。"],["廖委員先翔：好，所以在之後你們所講的一個月的時間提出報告的時候，我可不可以請審計長針對這一些你們認為有違法、違規或是不當使用的經費，請你們評估一下哪些經費你們認為應該要剔除追繳，哪一些不用，並把你們認為要不要的理由敘明，這可不可以？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：可以。"],["廖委員先翔：就是到時候在報告裡面都可以看得一清二楚，也就是審計部的立場。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["廖委員先翔：我先謝謝審計長。另外一點，因為基金特別好用，所以很多單位都喜歡用。以就業安定基金而言，它有沒有哪一項特別的業務，或者它的功能是本預算沒有辦法……可能是勞動部這個機關本預算沒有辦法達成它的目標或任務的？剛剛鍾佳濱委員有講，它的收入大概就是移工的雇主繳的錢，它的支出當然就是用來穩定我們的就業，這些預算在基金編列跟在本預算編列，如果要把這些基金預算挪回來本預算的話，有沒有窒礙難行的地方？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這是預算編列的問題，應該是沒有。就安基金有專款專用的性質，它要用到就業服務法所指定的促進國民就業、提供勞工福祉，這一方面它一定要用到，它沒有用到……"],["廖委員先翔：所以本預算都可以支應嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：就是要在它的公務預算裡面編列，而不能在這裡來編、來支用。"],["廖委員先翔：因為剛剛審計長也有跟大家說明，就安基金這幾年超支併決算的情況非常嚴重，這就是基金的好處，大家都要用基金，我可以超支，到時候再併決算就好了。照剛剛審計長講的，既然它的問題這麼嚴重，前科累累，它又沒有絕對存在、不可替代的必要的話，審計長，你認為就業安定基金如果我們來提倡把它廢除的話，您有沒有怎麼樣的個人意見？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：就業安定基金可以檢討……"],["廖委員先翔：就是把就業安定基金廢除，回到勞動部的本預算去執行所有預算的收支。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：就業安定基金是可以檢討的，廢除可能茲事體大，因為它已經行之三十幾年了，所以有它的必要。"],["廖委員先翔：可是剛剛審計長說它所有的支出都應該可以編在本預算內，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為……"],["廖委員先翔：然後它的超支併決算的情況又這麼嚴重，不受監督。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：早年財政困難的時候，有時候有一個專款專用，對促進國民就業、提高勞工福祉會相當重要，所以這個要慎重。"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係，這部分可不可以也一併納入審計部的專案報告裡面？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["廖委員先翔：就是針對就安基金存在的必要性，如果你們認為它有存在的必要的話，你們就敘明清楚，讓大家知道你們專業獨立的意見。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，謝謝。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝審計長。另外一點就是我們立法院的預算中心定期也都會提供我們一些他們審查的情況，我們立法院預算中心也有提出幾個意見，就是針對中央政府整體媒體宣傳費用規模的增長，一部分是金額的提高，一部分是有許多的機關可能把媒體的相關費用散編在公務、非營業基金或者是特別預算當中。審計長，您認為同樣一個主管、同樣一個可以運用這些資金的人，他把這些媒體廣告的宣傳費用拆散到不同的單位，審計長，您認為這樣是適宜的做法嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：針對政令宣導經費，我們專案查了3年，3年都進行專案調查，我們也提出了非常多的意見給行政院參考，後來它也訂定一個專項，但是有的會放在非營業裡面，公務也有，但是我們在查核的時候會把這幾個一起看、一起檢討。"],["廖委員先翔：對，其實營業基金可以理解，營業基金另外看都沒有問題，但是公務預算跟非營業基金如果把一筆應該要用的款項拆分下來，都會讓人家懷疑當初是不是有規避監督的想法，會讓人家這樣子懷疑。所以如果我們過去都有做一些專案跟行政院來溝通的話，代表審計長應該也是認為相關的媒體宣傳費用，不只是媒體宣傳費用，應該是相關的費用如果能夠集中由一個主管機關來編列的話，對我們事後的稽查或者是它的公開透明來講的話，應該都是有正面的幫助。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員這個意見很好，但是行政部門有它的考慮，也有它的相當困難。"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係，至少審計長認同這樣子的意見，行政機關如果不這樣做的話，他們應該要敘明理由，說明為什麼他們要這樣子做，好，沒有問題。謝謝審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，謝謝。"],["廖委員先翔：第三個，我們來討論一下採購的一些問題。如果有一個機關針對類似的品項招商、招標有高度集中化的現象，您認為會有哪些後遺症？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：高……"],["廖委員先翔：高度集中化。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：集中到某一個廠家？"],["廖委員先翔：對，廠商。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個我們會注意，要是它多次都集中在這個廠家，我們就會列為高度風險，會專案查核。"],["廖委員先翔：我們先不要臆測這家廠商或者是採購過程中有沒有非法的部分，我們不要臆測它，但是這樣子的現象對我們國家採購有沒有不良的影響？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：一般公務機關來講，如果廠家是優良的，它可以幫忙這個機關，我們大概就是……"],["廖委員先翔：長期配合，沒有問題。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為它是信用良好，有時候找它可以把整個建築或各方面的採購做得很好，工程會也有鼓勵用這樣的方法，但是我們目前對於這些採購，一年差不多有19萬件，差不多有兩兆餘元的採購……"],["廖委員先翔：我想跟審計長報告的是，高度集中化會有依賴性過強的問題，不利於市場的公平競爭，你與廠商之間的談判或議約、議價，你的主動權會相對的比充分競爭的市場來得低，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["廖委員先翔：所以站在採購的立場上，我今天要提的是我們的國防預算，其實在早年中華民國的國防採購並沒有專門都向哪個國家採購，譬如我們過去常跟美國採購，也會跟法國採購，無論是幻象戰機或拉法葉艦，雖然它的過程發生一些弊案，原則上分散有分散的好處。但是近年來中華民國的軍備採購長期集中在美國這個單一國家，產生的長期依賴性就會產生了一些後遺症，譬如媒體報導美軍相關的軍備採購案常常會有延宕交貨的情形，這部分審計部在對國防部稽核的時候也都會稽核到嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有，我們現在稽核到的差不多有兩千八百多億的備償帳在美國，也有一千五百多億的延後交貨。"],["廖委員先翔：延宕交貨？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["廖委員先翔：甚至可能是簽約了之後再議約，也有可能議約之後就不算在這裡面了，這樣子的情形對於充實我們的國防絕對是一個潛在的因子，我們今天花了那麼多錢，但是它東西沒有辦法如實、如約、如期的交貨，就會對我們的國防可能產生了一些漏洞，針對這個部分，我不曉得針對國防部的機密預算，審計部也有辦法稽核到嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：都有。"],["廖委員先翔：都可以嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：都可以稽核到，軍購案是高度的軍事和政治的因素……"],["廖委員先翔：它還是會有國家上位的政策，要跟哪個國家採購……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，這個還要考慮到整個國家安全各方面的事情。"],["廖委員先翔：但是近年國防部給立法院的報告，包括高效能反裝甲飛彈、F-16的一些性能提升，還有新式戰機的採購，在他們換約了之後還是有延宕的情形，其更早的起因可能是因為我們國軍長期以來依賴美軍，它認為我們只有單一的窗口，我們不會去跟英國、我們不會去跟法國、我們不會去跟其他國家進行軍購，所以它可能在跟我們的談判上面會比較強勢，甚至美國對於海外軍售的制度是只要在發價書的最後年度前交貨，可能會有階段性，也就是他們不管階段性，他們只管最後的這個年度前交貨就不算延遲，這樣子的合約簽訂，您認為是適當的嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們有請國防部檢討。"],["廖委員先翔：請國防部檢討？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，我們也有發現這樣的問題，請國防部要好好的檢討。"],["廖委員先翔：就是以後對於不管是任何國家，只要有相關的軍備採購案，當初合約怎麼訂，沒有特殊的原因就必須要如期、如約的交貨，他們有相關的一些違約機制嗎？我們任何的政府機關採購都會有違約的懲罰金，軍購案會有嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：軍購案在訂定的時候是沒有，我們目前沒有看到，我們也在查核的時候發現這種現象……"],["廖委員先翔：所以我們有要求國防部應該要有這樣子的機制？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有要求國防部要對這一方面做一個要求。"],["廖委員先翔：那就麻煩審計部繼續針對上述的問題提出一些建議給我們，讓國家更加精進。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員的詢問，也謝謝陳審計長的詢答。","報告院會，現在在我們議場2樓旁聽的是來自美國智庫東西中心2024年Jefferson獎金計畫的資深記者團，Welcome！Ladies and Gentlemen！我們掌聲歡迎。","接下來請登記第3位林憶君委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":432,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-13","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","鍾佳濱","廖先翔","林憶君","吳琪銘","林德福","賴惠員","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","賴士葆"],"page_start":396,"meetingDate":["2024-12-17"],"gazette_id":"1140104","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140104_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第13次會議紀錄","content":"審計長列席報告「中華民國112年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」審核經\n過並備諮詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1140104_00002"}}}