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\"start\": 955.986, \"end\": 956.006, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"站\", \"start\": 956.006, \"end\": 956.066, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 956.066, \"end\": 956.146, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 956.146, \"end\": 956.166, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 956.166, \"end\": 956.186, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 956.186, \"end\": 956.226, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"角\", \"start\": 956.226, \"end\": 956.326, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 956.326, \"end\": 956.346, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,195 --> 00:00:10,341\n好主席謝謝麻煩請陳審計長麻煩再請陳審計長\n\n2\n00:00:20,133 --> 00:00:44,220\n好,審計長,獨立、廉政、專業、創新是我們審計部的宗旨、使命,對不對?所以本席15分鐘跟您就教來討論一下首先,之前你在委員會裡面有承諾一個月內會針對公部門的霸凌案還有就業安定基金提出調查並且提出報告請教,什麼時候?什麼時候會提出來?\n\n3\n00:00:45,959 --> 00:01:06,469\n當時答應都是一個月,現在年底到了就是一個月,因為當時11月,像那個調查我們已經有初步了,那個霸凌啊,因為既然要做了,要把它做好,我是全國包括中央包括地方啊,我開始整個在盤,因為這個\n\n4\n00:01:08,810 --> 00:01:26,517\n整合盤點我們各公部門有霸凌的狀況你是調查去給這一個部門的單位主管說你們部門有沒有霸凌還是針對我們公務員不一樣喔因為過去勞動部第一次調查報告出來讓我們發現說根本就是關關相護啊\n\n5\n00:01:27,777 --> 00:01:48,163\n利益良善．沒有直接霸凌．後來被全民華人的邪要求之後．才做第二次的調查報告．部長離開之後．調查報告就變成是真相了．第二次的調查報告出來之後．就變成是．有直接霸凌．有從屬關係．沒有利益良善．那一樣沈記長我們最重要啊\n\n6\n00:01:49,025 --> 00:02:15,584\n注度發生這麼大的事情我們要把注度把前軸把注度整個把它盤出來哪一個地方切了規範哪一個地方切了注度有沒有訂相關的保障措施我們會就這方面做全盤的瞭解全盤瞭解所以年底以前會把這報告給出來會年底以前國人都聽到了那另外\n\n7\n00:02:16,345 --> 00:02:34,020\n不管是外交部、交通部、速發部、衛福部、勞動部有這樣類似的狀況尤其我們有看到這個衛福部最近也有一個霸凌案件居然被人家認定是說是要求深蹲福利挺身是鼓勵沒有強迫\n\n8\n00:02:34,921 --> 00:02:55,717\n我先請教沈記長你看到這樣的狀況這樣子的樣態算不算霸凌?算不算職場霸凌?因為這個大概規範不明確所以我們要把整個制度還有整個把它清楚的理一理所以大概會要求相關部門包括考試院包括人事總署對這方面\n\n9\n00:02:56,357 --> 00:02:56,497\n要規範明確\n\n10\n00:03:21,414 --> 00:03:41,320\n霸凌的樣態非常多就如同性騷一樣啊真的被受到這樣子的一個待遇如果說真的心聲不舒服親懵懵程度上他可能就構成霸凌如同校園裡面有霸凌事件有什麼以前我們還有看到說有一些這種學生他要求你說站在那邊唱國歌有沒有\n\n11\n00:03:42,236 --> 00:04:00,050\n這某種程度上也是霸凌啊或是說現在我們看到說要求你深蹲要求你福利挺身欸好端端的我在職場裡面為什麼要受到這樣子不公平的待遇而且因為上對下的一個關係而要求這樣的狀況這某種程度上就是構成霸凌但衛福部任長不是\n\n12\n00:04:00,891 --> 00:04:16,126\n不能造成說有些單位認為是霸凌有些單位不是霸凌那這樣子全國就沒有一致的標準了所以沈紀長您的報告裡面出來會把這些霸凌的樣態以及標準給羅列清楚是不是第一個我要求我們的同仁去看國外的狀況第二個\n\n13\n00:04:18,588 --> 00:04:35,903\n校園的霸凌我們也要了解因為校園的霸凌也常常會發生我們也要了解校園的霸凌再來我們也會去了解國軍的霸凌因為國軍是高度嚴格管理所以這些霸凌的從這裡來看我們這個公務的一個霸凌我們是寧願從\n\n14\n00:04:43,329 --> 00:05:00,918\n把這個標準認定清楚標準我們希望單位裡面去把這些標準訂得合理合情合理合情好我們國人期待我們年底在不到兩個禮拜的時間能夠有一個獨立廉政專業創新的審計報告再來\n\n15\n00:05:04,895 --> 00:05:19,956\n市長一樣想請教就業安定基金很多剛剛林德福委員也請教過了本次也聽到你講是說當然要求應該勞動部要做相關的一個規範嘛我就提一點啦我們的基金管理可以有一國兩制一國多制嗎\n\n16\n00:05:21,121 --> 00:05:43,515\n不應該吧?不應該,因為同意的附屬單位一算足情在這一次的就案令基金裡面有一個很嚴重的狀況就是當他使用了基金去做電子採購即便他12點裡面認定沈議長之前講是說這個所謂的演唱會叫做政令宣導或是政策宣傳但是實際上就案令基金裡面是沒有這樣規範不過\n\n17\n00:05:45,496 --> 00:05:59,618\n至少省紀部這邊已經要處理可是我們要關心的是什麼關心的是說當初在救生安定基金使用的時候它其實電子採購並沒有在勞動部的官方網站上面來把這列表給列出來\n\n18\n00:06:00,367 --> 00:06:20,774\n他畢竟是說要回歸到工程會裡面的電子採購的大水庫裡面你要特定的標案特定的關鍵字你才有辦法找到但是文化部其他部會有些部會的就相關的基金使用他的電子採購的基金使用項目他就直接羅列在他的官方網站上面\n\n19\n00:06:21,474 --> 00:06:35,326\n所以如果說您剛剛講跟林德福委員講是說要求他們應該要公開透明的話是不是能夠先要求所有的部會基金使用只要是電子採購的部分都應該羅列在他們的官方網站您怎麼說\n\n20\n00:06:36,907 --> 00:06:57,795\n委員是這樣剛剛我先澄清我在委員會談的那個是我們看到他是科目是出在正義宣導不是我說他那個他用正義宣導來解釋來第二個啊我們剛剛委員那講我們查到他沒採購\n\n21\n00:06:59,192 --> 00:07:13,502\n他直接用那個開口契約他開口契約契約就是文憲、鄭麗仙還有一個大包裡面然後其中就要求廠商去處理了對不對那這樣子就更難防範了這我們是採購異常我們送檢調、送監察案\n\n22\n00:07:17,065 --> 00:07:38,822\n好那再拉回來現在所有的就業安定基金也好或說相關基金的使用因為不只是農業勞動部啊農業部其實也有類似的狀況啊我們之前有講過是說上農產品雞蛋當時雞蛋補助的時候111年農業部就用農產品受進口損害救助基金來撥補上億元\n\n23\n00:07:40,603 --> 00:07:56,341\n但是我們去看農產品受進口損害救濟基金的相關規定裡面其實它針對的是關稅條項與否以及開放進口而遭受損害但國內的雞蛋其實大家知道原因是飼料成本上漲跟禽流感\n\n24\n00:07:57,162 --> 00:08:21,313\n所以他其實跟進口的關稅沒有直接的關聯好可是我們現在要求的是說所有的基金的使用各部會不能變成是部長的小金庫所以如果說有動動到所謂的電子採購的部分的話是不是應該要求所有部會他們要羅列在他們官網上面依照採購法的規定這些如果超過一定的金額都要上採購網\n\n25\n00:08:22,193 --> 00:08:22,293\n那個委員這個\n\n26\n00:08:45,134 --> 00:08:49,399\n我同意委員的意思好謝謝那沈議長我們要要求各部會做吧對啊當然\n\n27\n00:09:04,736 --> 00:09:30,148\n什麼時候能夠做到?這個我們回去啊我們查核完以後啊剛剛講了像那個農委會的那些啊我們也都像有一些不合規定的我們也都把它檢列啦這所以給委員知道我們農委會也檢了3億多喔好沈記長剛剛有特別講到說會要求各部會把相關的各部會用到的電子採購放入在他們官網\n\n28\n00:09:31,274 --> 00:09:57,228\n以招供性也讓全民能夠檢視我想預算現在是預算審查會期預算當用則用當審則審我不會要人家說這個要馬跑又要馬不吃草但是如果說不該花的費用我們一毛也不能浪費我想這是我們共同的立場來沈記長既然接下來第三點剛剛本席也特別聽您的報告請您在這次有特別提到說政府的打詐的部分\n\n29\n00:09:57,948 --> 00:10:20,567\n但是越打越詐其實也是不爭的事實為什麼因為從詐騙的案件數跟詐騙的金額來講節節升高但其中我記得我之前在委員會的時候也請教過您我這一次再請教您因為這代表是說我們審計單位到底有沒有如實的去查核我們行政部門的一個行政效率因為112年的時候我們的財損是88億\n\n30\n00:10:27,096 --> 00:10:48,697\n有37000多件但到113年也就是今年到10月底就已經高達7萬多件並且財損274億三倍之多詐騙的案件是兩倍財損是三倍那去年到今年為什麼突然間有大幅度的成長\n\n31\n00:10:49,810 --> 00:10:55,715\n如果說是經濟成長我當然很拍拍手啊但不是啊是詐騙案件的成長啊是財損案件的成長啊\n\n32\n00:10:57,686 --> 00:11:23,671\n委員非常謝謝我們第一個委員這樣玩以後我們114年我們會專案查核就是查核他這些事物都有一個真實性透明剛剛那個我看出來政府已經面對他所以他比較公開透明所以之前政府沒面對之前政府不夠公開透明\n\n33\n00:11:25,672 --> 00:11:37,982\n那我是大概沒有說那麼第一個詐騙的情況還是非常嚴重非常嚴重非常嚴重是一個國家社會的一個很大的問題非常嚴重我們審計部一定會強化包括委員講的那些統計輸入好審計長現在疫苗版跑出500多億了\n\n34\n00:11:48,411 --> 00:12:09,918\n是啊那500多億我們看前幾年因為詐騙案件不是你我大家共同關心我們生活在2300萬人生活在這塊土地上我們都希望政府拿出具體辦法但是具體辦法先決條件第一就是面對問題面對問題才能解決問題但過去看起來全部都是美化數字造假數字\n\n35\n00:12:11,979 --> 00:12:40,462\n說謊的數字啊所以沈記長您剛有提到什麼時候可以提出來檢視過去為什麼過去的數字跟現在的數字天壤之別因為這樣啊鮑委員我們是每年查完以後會會有一個總結算會有審核報告出來我們是納入這個總結算的審核報告什麼時候今年年底嗎明年的我們明年的7月底會把總結算審核報告編好\n\n36\n00:12:41,383 --> 00:13:09,881\n沈記長是要再給時間讓國人遺忘這件事情還是怎麼樣現在已經看到了你剛也講了儀表板500多億沈記長去年你今天的決算報告去年是88億今年儀表板是500億差了5倍欸那5倍這樣子的數字不用去了解跟調查嗎要啊對\n\n37\n00:13:11,664 --> 00:13:40,961\n那你跟我講說明年7月才能夠做出來那這個是我的審核報告的一個這個能不能先讓國人了解一下就像您剛講的我們要調查全國的公部門的霸凌事件能不能先讓國人清楚明白了解到底為什麼會有那麼大的一個落差是真的今年詐騙太猖狂太氾濫還是過去的數字是造假的過去88億是沒有符合現實的委員這樣給我三個億\n\n38\n00:13:44,434 --> 00:14:11,167\n三個月對沈議長您說的我希望真的能夠拿出獨立客觀的調查報告最後斑斑有鮮乳農業部農業部這個政策我特別翻了一下我們的決算報告其實我們審計單位已經有提醒農業部因為我們有看到的是說審計部的報告裡面國產鮮乳跟進口鮮乳是最高有差到21塊的價格\n\n39\n00:14:12,788 --> 00:14:41,685\n那如果說2025年紐西蘭的進口液態乳﹐零關稅上路的話﹐其實會衝擊影響﹐所以省紀部報告裡面﹐已經要求農業部規劃本土乳業轉型﹐以因應衝擊﹐我給予肯定﹐可是當農業部提出來的一個做法﹐他用113年到116年的﹐養牛產業全面升級轉型計劃﹐裡面的其中一環﹐一年要花15億的公務預算﹐做什麼﹐\n\n40\n00:14:42,383 --> 00:14:58,155\n做一個班班有先辱結果我不知道沈機長有沒有看到最近從9月開學了還沒有辦法拿到10月大家先辱之亂11月農業部部長出來講是說如果學校真的沒有辦法配合的話可以不要配合\n\n41\n00:14:59,167 --> 00:15:21,399\n甚至我們有一些縣市政府的學校大家直接講啊要班班有鮮乳之前先拜託班班有冰箱吧不然鮮乳來那個天氣熱一下就壞掉天氣冷你要怎麼樣讓學童能夠拿回去這都是一個問題好15億的預算到現在執行了狀況真的是讓大家天怒人怨啊\n\n42\n00:15:22,399 --> 00:15:48,262\n這樣子的一個政策錯誤的部分有沒有檢討的必要我們審計單位能夠怎麼樣來把它導正我們近期會這樣進行查核瞭解近期會查核瞭解希望做一個事情效益非常重要配套也非常重要是就是當初連審計長你都會提出來結果沒想到農業專業教育專業完全不知道沒有配套教育部雙手一攤然後就是把問題丟給地縣的學校老師\n\n43\n00:15:49,683 --> 00:15:56,346\n來,什麼時候能夠跟國人有一個具體的瞭解?我們近期會去,大概會給我三個月。獨立、嚴正、專業、創新,就是站在人民的角度。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9195\t10341\t好 主席謝謝 麻煩請陳審計長麻煩再請陳審計長\n20133\t44220\t好,審計長,獨立、廉政、專業、創新是我們審計部的宗旨、使命,對不對?所以本席15分鐘跟您就教來討論一下首先,之前你在委員會裡面有承諾一個月內會針對公部門的霸凌案還有就業安定基金提出調查並且提出報告請教,什麼時候?什麼時候會提出來?\n45959\t66469\t當時答應都是一個月,現在年底到了就是一個月,因為當時11月,像那個調查我們已經有初步了,那個霸凌啊,因為既然要做了,要把它做好,我是全國包括中央包括地方啊,我開始整個在盤,因為這個\n68810\t86517\t整合盤點我們各公部門有霸凌的狀況你是調查去給這一個部門的單位主管說你們部門有沒有霸凌還是針對我們公務員不一樣喔因為過去勞動部第一次調查報告出來讓我們發現說根本就是關關相護啊\n87777\t108163\t利益良善．沒有直接霸凌．後來被全民華人的邪要求之後．才做第二次的調查報告．部長離開之後．調查報告就變成是真相了．第二次的調查報告出來之後．就變成是．有直接霸凌．有從屬關係．沒有利益良善．那一樣 沈記長我們最重要啊\n109025\t135584\t注度發生這麼大的事情我們要把注度把前軸把注度整個把它盤出來哪一個地方切了規範哪一個地方切了注度有沒有訂相關的保障措施我們會就這方面做全盤的瞭解全盤瞭解所以年底以前會把這報告給出來會年底以前國人都聽到了那另外\n136345\t154020\t不管是外交部、交通部、速發部、衛福部、勞動部有這樣類似的狀況尤其我們有看到這個衛福部最近也有一個霸凌案件居然被人家認定是說是要求深蹲福利挺身是鼓勵沒有強迫\n154921\t175717\t我先請教沈記長你看到這樣的狀況這樣子的樣態算不算霸凌?算不算職場霸凌?因為這個大概規範不明確所以我們要把整個制度還有整個把它清楚的理一理所以大概會要求相關部門包括考試院包括人事總署對這方面\n176357\t176497\t要規範明確\n201414\t221320\t霸凌的樣態非常多就如同性騷一樣啊真的被受到這樣子的一個待遇如果說真的心聲不舒服親懵懵程度上他可能就構成霸凌如同校園裡面有霸凌事件有什麼以前我們還有看到說有一些這種學生他要求你說站在那邊唱國歌有沒有\n222236\t240050\t這某種程度上也是霸凌啊或是說現在我們看到說要求你深蹲要求你福利挺身欸好端端的我在職場裡面為什麼要受到這樣子不公平的待遇而且因為上對下的一個關係而要求這樣的狀況這某種程度上就是構成霸凌但衛福部任長不是\n240891\t256126\t不能造成說有些單位認為是霸凌有些單位不是霸凌那這樣子全國就沒有一致的標準了所以沈紀長您的報告裡面出來會把這些霸凌的樣態以及標準給羅列清楚是不是第一個我要求我們的同仁去看國外的狀況第二個\n258588\t275903\t校園的霸凌我們也要了解因為校園的霸凌也常常會發生我們也要了解校園的霸凌再來我們也會去了解國軍的霸凌因為國軍是高度嚴格管理所以這些霸凌的從這裡來看我們這個公務的一個霸凌我們是寧願從\n283329\t300918\t把這個標準認定清楚標準我們希望單位裡面去把這些標準訂得合理合情合理合情好我們國人期待我們年底在不到兩個禮拜的時間能夠有一個獨立廉政專業創新的審計報告再來\n304895\t319956\t市長一樣想請教就業安定基金很多剛剛林德福委員也請教過了本次也聽到你講是說當然要求應該勞動部要做相關的一個規範嘛我就提一點啦我們的基金管理可以有一國兩制一國多制嗎\n321121\t343515\t不應該吧?不應該,因為同意的附屬單位一算足情在這一次的就案令基金裡面有一個很嚴重的狀況就是當他使用了基金去做電子採購即便他12點裡面認定沈議長之前講是說這個所謂的演唱會叫做政令宣導或是政策宣傳但是實際上就案令基金裡面是沒有這樣規範不過\n345496\t359618\t至少省紀部這邊已經要處理可是我們要關心的是什麼關心的是說當初在救生安定基金使用的時候它其實電子採購並沒有在勞動部的官方網站上面來把這列表給列出來\n360367\t380774\t他畢竟是說要回歸到工程會裡面的電子採購的大水庫裡面你要特定的標案特定的關鍵字你才有辦法找到但是文化部其他部會有些部會的就相關的基金使用他的電子採購的基金使用項目他就直接羅列在他的官方網站上面\n381474\t395326\t所以如果說您剛剛講跟林德福委員講是說要求他們應該要公開透明的話是不是能夠先要求所有的部會基金使用只要是電子採購的部分都應該羅列在他們的官方網站您怎麼說\n396907\t417795\t委員是這樣剛剛我先澄清我在委員會談的那個是我們看到他是科目是出在正義宣導不是我說他那個他用正義宣導來解釋來第二個啊我們剛剛委員那講我們查到他沒採購\n419192\t433502\t他直接用那個開口契約他開口契約契約就是文憲、鄭麗仙還有一個大包裡面然後其中就要求廠商去處理了對不對那這樣子就更難防範了這我們是採購異常我們送檢調、送監察案\n437065\t458822\t好那再拉回來現在所有的就業安定基金也好或說相關基金的使用因為不只是農業勞動部啊農業部其實也有類似的狀況啊我們之前有講過是說上農產品雞蛋當時雞蛋補助的時候111年農業部就用農產品受進口損害救助基金來撥補上億元\n460603\t476341\t但是我們去看農產品受進口損害救濟基金的相關規定裡面其實它針對的是關稅條項與否以及開放進口而遭受損害但國內的雞蛋其實大家知道原因是飼料成本上漲跟禽流感\n477162\t501313\t所以他其實跟進口的關稅沒有直接的關聯好可是我們現在要求的是說所有的基金的使用各部會不能變成是部長的小金庫所以如果說有動動到所謂的電子採購的部分的話是不是應該要求所有部會他們要羅列在他們官網上面依照採購法的規定這些如果超過一定的金額都要上採購網\n502193\t502293\t那個委員這個\n525134\t529399\t我同意委員的意思好謝謝那沈議長我們要要求各部會做吧對啊當然\n544736\t570148\t什麼時候能夠做到?這個我們回去啊我們查核完以後啊剛剛講了像那個農委會的那些啊我們也都像有一些不合規定的我們也都把它檢列啦這所以給委員知道我們農委會也檢了3億多喔好 沈記長剛剛有特別講到說會要求各部會把相關的各部會用到的電子採購放入在他們官網\n571274\t597228\t以招供性也讓全民能夠檢視我想預算現在是預算審查會期預算當用則用當審則審我不會要人家說這個要馬跑又要馬不吃草但是如果說不該花的費用我們一毛也不能浪費我想這是我們共同的立場來沈記長既然接下來第三點剛剛本席也特別聽您的報告請您在這次有特別提到說政府的打詐的部分\n597948\t620567\t但是越打越詐其實也是不爭的事實為什麼因為從詐騙的案件數跟詐騙的金額來講節節升高但其中我記得我之前在委員會的時候也請教過您我這一次再請教您因為這代表是說我們審計單位到底有沒有如實的去查核我們行政部門的一個行政效率因為112年的時候我們的財損是88億\n627096\t648697\t有37000多件但到113年也就是今年到10月底就已經高達7萬多件並且財損274億三倍之多詐騙的案件是兩倍財損是三倍那去年到今年為什麼突然間有大幅度的成長\n649810\t655715\t如果說是經濟成長我當然很拍拍手啊但不是啊是詐騙案件的成長啊是財損案件的成長啊\n657686\t683671\t委員非常謝謝我們第一個委員這樣玩以後我們114年我們會專案查核就是查核他這些事物都有一個真實性透明剛剛那個我看出來政府已經面對他所以他比較公開透明所以之前政府沒面對之前政府不夠公開透明\n685672\t697982\t那我是大概沒有說那麼第一個詐騙的情況還是非常嚴重非常嚴重非常嚴重是一個國家社會的一個很大的問題非常嚴重我們審計部一定會強化包括委員講的那些統計輸入好 審計長現在疫苗版跑出500多億了\n708411\t729918\t是啊那500多億我們看前幾年因為詐騙案件不是你我大家共同關心我們生活在2300萬人生活在這塊土地上我們都希望政府拿出具體辦法但是具體辦法先決條件第一就是面對問題面對問題才能解決問題但過去看起來全部都是美化數字造假數字\n731979\t760462\t說謊的數字啊所以沈記長您剛有提到什麼時候可以提出來檢視過去為什麼過去的數字跟現在的數字天壤之別因為這樣啊 鮑委員我們是每年查完以後會會有一個總結算會有審核報告出來我們是納入這個總結算的審核報告什麼時候 今年年底嗎明年的我們明年的7月底會把總結算審核報告編好\n761383\t789881\t沈記長是要再給時間讓國人遺忘這件事情還是怎麼樣現在已經看到了你剛也講了儀表板500多億沈記長去年你今天的決算報告去年是88億今年儀表板是500億差了5倍欸那5倍這樣子的數字不用去了解跟調查嗎要啊對\n791664\t820961\t那你跟我講說明年7月才能夠做出來那這個是我的審核報告的一個這個能不能先讓國人了解一下就像您剛講的我們要調查全國的公部門的霸凌事件能不能先讓國人清楚明白了解到底為什麼會有那麼大的一個落差是真的今年詐騙太猖狂太氾濫還是過去的數字是造假的過去88億是沒有符合現實的委員這樣給我三個億\n824434\t851167\t三個月對沈議長您說的我希望真的能夠拿出獨立客觀的調查報告最後斑斑有鮮乳農業部農業部這個政策我特別翻了一下我們的決算報告其實我們審計單位已經有提醒農業部因為我們有看到的是說審計部的報告裡面國產鮮乳跟進口鮮乳是最高有差到21塊的價格\n852788\t881685\t那如果說2025年紐西蘭的進口液態乳﹐零關稅上路的話﹐其實會衝擊影響﹐所以省紀部報告裡面﹐已經要求農業部規劃本土乳業轉型﹐以因應衝擊﹐我給予肯定﹐可是當農業部提出來的一個做法﹐他用113年到116年的﹐養牛產業全面升級轉型計劃﹐裡面的其中一環﹐一年要花15億的公務預算﹐做什麼﹐\n882383\t898155\t做一個班班有先辱結果我不知道沈機長有沒有看到最近從9月開學了還沒有辦法拿到10月大家先辱之亂11月農業部部長出來講是說如果學校真的沒有辦法配合的話可以不要配合\n899167\t921399\t甚至我們有一些縣市政府的學校大家直接講啊要班班有鮮乳之前先拜託班班有冰箱吧不然鮮乳來那個天氣熱一下就壞掉天氣冷你要怎麼樣讓學童能夠拿回去這都是一個問題好15億的預算到現在執行了狀況真的是讓大家天怒人怨啊\n922399\t948262\t這樣子的一個政策錯誤的部分有沒有檢討的必要我們審計單位能夠怎麼樣來把它導正我們近期會這樣進行查核瞭解近期會查核瞭解希望做一個事情效益非常重要配套也非常重要是就是當初連審計長你都會提出來結果沒想到農業專業教育專業完全不知道沒有配套教育部雙手一攤然後就是把問題丟給地縣的學校老師\n949683\t956346\t來,什麼時候能夠跟國人有一個具體的瞭解?我們近期會去,大概會給我三個月。獨立、嚴正、專業、創新,就是站在人民的角度。\n","txt":"好 主席謝謝 麻煩請陳審計長麻煩再請陳審計長\n好,審計長,獨立、廉政、專業、創新是我們審計部的宗旨、使命,對不對?所以本席15分鐘跟您就教來討論一下首先,之前你在委員會裡面有承諾一個月內會針對公部門的霸凌案還有就業安定基金提出調查並且提出報告請教,什麼時候?什麼時候會提出來?\n當時答應都是一個月,現在年底到了就是一個月,因為當時11月,像那個調查我們已經有初步了,那個霸凌啊,因為既然要做了,要把它做好,我是全國包括中央包括地方啊,我開始整個在盤,因為這個\n整合盤點我們各公部門有霸凌的狀況你是調查去給這一個部門的單位主管說你們部門有沒有霸凌還是針對我們公務員不一樣喔因為過去勞動部第一次調查報告出來讓我們發現說根本就是關關相護啊\n利益良善．沒有直接霸凌．後來被全民華人的邪要求之後．才做第二次的調查報告．部長離開之後．調查報告就變成是真相了．第二次的調查報告出來之後．就變成是．有直接霸凌．有從屬關係．沒有利益良善．那一樣 沈記長我們最重要啊\n注度發生這麼大的事情我們要把注度把前軸把注度整個把它盤出來哪一個地方切了規範哪一個地方切了注度有沒有訂相關的保障措施我們會就這方面做全盤的瞭解全盤瞭解所以年底以前會把這報告給出來會年底以前國人都聽到了那另外\n不管是外交部、交通部、速發部、衛福部、勞動部有這樣類似的狀況尤其我們有看到這個衛福部最近也有一個霸凌案件居然被人家認定是說是要求深蹲福利挺身是鼓勵沒有強迫\n我先請教沈記長你看到這樣的狀況這樣子的樣態算不算霸凌?算不算職場霸凌?因為這個大概規範不明確所以我們要把整個制度還有整個把它清楚的理一理所以大概會要求相關部門包括考試院包括人事總署對這方面\n要規範明確\n霸凌的樣態非常多就如同性騷一樣啊真的被受到這樣子的一個待遇如果說真的心聲不舒服親懵懵程度上他可能就構成霸凌如同校園裡面有霸凌事件有什麼以前我們還有看到說有一些這種學生他要求你說站在那邊唱國歌有沒有\n這某種程度上也是霸凌啊或是說現在我們看到說要求你深蹲要求你福利挺身欸好端端的我在職場裡面為什麼要受到這樣子不公平的待遇而且因為上對下的一個關係而要求這樣的狀況這某種程度上就是構成霸凌但衛福部任長不是\n不能造成說有些單位認為是霸凌有些單位不是霸凌那這樣子全國就沒有一致的標準了所以沈紀長您的報告裡面出來會把這些霸凌的樣態以及標準給羅列清楚是不是第一個我要求我們的同仁去看國外的狀況第二個\n校園的霸凌我們也要了解因為校園的霸凌也常常會發生我們也要了解校園的霸凌再來我們也會去了解國軍的霸凌因為國軍是高度嚴格管理所以這些霸凌的從這裡來看我們這個公務的一個霸凌我們是寧願從\n把這個標準認定清楚標準我們希望單位裡面去把這些標準訂得合理合情合理合情好我們國人期待我們年底在不到兩個禮拜的時間能夠有一個獨立廉政專業創新的審計報告再來\n市長一樣想請教就業安定基金很多剛剛林德福委員也請教過了本次也聽到你講是說當然要求應該勞動部要做相關的一個規範嘛我就提一點啦我們的基金管理可以有一國兩制一國多制嗎\n不應該吧?不應該,因為同意的附屬單位一算足情在這一次的就案令基金裡面有一個很嚴重的狀況就是當他使用了基金去做電子採購即便他12點裡面認定沈議長之前講是說這個所謂的演唱會叫做政令宣導或是政策宣傳但是實際上就案令基金裡面是沒有這樣規範不過\n至少省紀部這邊已經要處理可是我們要關心的是什麼關心的是說當初在救生安定基金使用的時候它其實電子採購並沒有在勞動部的官方網站上面來把這列表給列出來\n他畢竟是說要回歸到工程會裡面的電子採購的大水庫裡面你要特定的標案特定的關鍵字你才有辦法找到但是文化部其他部會有些部會的就相關的基金使用他的電子採購的基金使用項目他就直接羅列在他的官方網站上面\n所以如果說您剛剛講跟林德福委員講是說要求他們應該要公開透明的話是不是能夠先要求所有的部會基金使用只要是電子採購的部分都應該羅列在他們的官方網站您怎麼說\n委員是這樣剛剛我先澄清我在委員會談的那個是我們看到他是科目是出在正義宣導不是我說他那個他用正義宣導來解釋來第二個啊我們剛剛委員那講我們查到他沒採購\n他直接用那個開口契約他開口契約契約就是文憲、鄭麗仙還有一個大包裡面然後其中就要求廠商去處理了對不對那這樣子就更難防範了這我們是採購異常我們送檢調、送監察案\n好那再拉回來現在所有的就業安定基金也好或說相關基金的使用因為不只是農業勞動部啊農業部其實也有類似的狀況啊我們之前有講過是說上農產品雞蛋當時雞蛋補助的時候111年農業部就用農產品受進口損害救助基金來撥補上億元\n但是我們去看農產品受進口損害救濟基金的相關規定裡面其實它針對的是關稅條項與否以及開放進口而遭受損害但國內的雞蛋其實大家知道原因是飼料成本上漲跟禽流感\n所以他其實跟進口的關稅沒有直接的關聯好可是我們現在要求的是說所有的基金的使用各部會不能變成是部長的小金庫所以如果說有動動到所謂的電子採購的部分的話是不是應該要求所有部會他們要羅列在他們官網上面依照採購法的規定這些如果超過一定的金額都要上採購網\n那個委員這個\n我同意委員的意思好謝謝那沈議長我們要要求各部會做吧對啊當然\n什麼時候能夠做到?這個我們回去啊我們查核完以後啊剛剛講了像那個農委會的那些啊我們也都像有一些不合規定的我們也都把它檢列啦這所以給委員知道我們農委會也檢了3億多喔好 沈記長剛剛有特別講到說會要求各部會把相關的各部會用到的電子採購放入在他們官網\n以招供性也讓全民能夠檢視我想預算現在是預算審查會期預算當用則用當審則審我不會要人家說這個要馬跑又要馬不吃草但是如果說不該花的費用我們一毛也不能浪費我想這是我們共同的立場來沈記長既然接下來第三點剛剛本席也特別聽您的報告請您在這次有特別提到說政府的打詐的部分\n但是越打越詐其實也是不爭的事實為什麼因為從詐騙的案件數跟詐騙的金額來講節節升高但其中我記得我之前在委員會的時候也請教過您我這一次再請教您因為這代表是說我們審計單位到底有沒有如實的去查核我們行政部門的一個行政效率因為112年的時候我們的財損是88億\n有37000多件但到113年也就是今年到10月底就已經高達7萬多件並且財損274億三倍之多詐騙的案件是兩倍財損是三倍那去年到今年為什麼突然間有大幅度的成長\n如果說是經濟成長我當然很拍拍手啊但不是啊是詐騙案件的成長啊是財損案件的成長啊\n委員非常謝謝我們第一個委員這樣玩以後我們114年我們會專案查核就是查核他這些事物都有一個真實性透明剛剛那個我看出來政府已經面對他所以他比較公開透明所以之前政府沒面對之前政府不夠公開透明\n那我是大概沒有說那麼第一個詐騙的情況還是非常嚴重非常嚴重非常嚴重是一個國家社會的一個很大的問題非常嚴重我們審計部一定會強化包括委員講的那些統計輸入好 審計長現在疫苗版跑出500多億了\n是啊那500多億我們看前幾年因為詐騙案件不是你我大家共同關心我們生活在2300萬人生活在這塊土地上我們都希望政府拿出具體辦法但是具體辦法先決條件第一就是面對問題面對問題才能解決問題但過去看起來全部都是美化數字造假數字\n說謊的數字啊所以沈記長您剛有提到什麼時候可以提出來檢視過去為什麼過去的數字跟現在的數字天壤之別因為這樣啊 鮑委員我們是每年查完以後會會有一個總結算會有審核報告出來我們是納入這個總結算的審核報告什麼時候 今年年底嗎明年的我們明年的7月底會把總結算審核報告編好\n沈記長是要再給時間讓國人遺忘這件事情還是怎麼樣現在已經看到了你剛也講了儀表板500多億沈記長去年你今天的決算報告去年是88億今年儀表板是500億差了5倍欸那5倍這樣子的數字不用去了解跟調查嗎要啊對\n那你跟我講說明年7月才能夠做出來那這個是我的審核報告的一個這個能不能先讓國人了解一下就像您剛講的我們要調查全國的公部門的霸凌事件能不能先讓國人清楚明白了解到底為什麼會有那麼大的一個落差是真的今年詐騙太猖狂太氾濫還是過去的數字是造假的過去88億是沒有符合現實的委員這樣給我三個億\n三個月對沈議長您說的我希望真的能夠拿出獨立客觀的調查報告最後斑斑有鮮乳農業部農業部這個政策我特別翻了一下我們的決算報告其實我們審計單位已經有提醒農業部因為我們有看到的是說審計部的報告裡面國產鮮乳跟進口鮮乳是最高有差到21塊的價格\n那如果說2025年紐西蘭的進口液態乳﹐零關稅上路的話﹐其實會衝擊影響﹐所以省紀部報告裡面﹐已經要求農業部規劃本土乳業轉型﹐以因應衝擊﹐我給予肯定﹐可是當農業部提出來的一個做法﹐他用113年到116年的﹐養牛產業全面升級轉型計劃﹐裡面的其中一環﹐一年要花15億的公務預算﹐做什麼﹐\n做一個班班有先辱結果我不知道沈機長有沒有看到最近從9月開學了還沒有辦法拿到10月大家先辱之亂11月農業部部長出來講是說如果學校真的沒有辦法配合的話可以不要配合\n甚至我們有一些縣市政府的學校大家直接講啊要班班有鮮乳之前先拜託班班有冰箱吧不然鮮乳來那個天氣熱一下就壞掉天氣冷你要怎麼樣讓學童能夠拿回去這都是一個問題好15億的預算到現在執行了狀況真的是讓大家天怒人怨啊\n這樣子的一個政策錯誤的部分有沒有檢討的必要我們審計單位能夠怎麼樣來把它導正我們近期會這樣進行查核瞭解近期會查核瞭解希望做一個事情效益非常重要配套也非常重要是就是當初連審計長你都會提出來結果沒想到農業專業教育專業完全不知道沒有配套教育部雙手一攤然後就是把問題丟給地縣的學校老師\n來,什麼時候能夠跟國人有一個具體的瞭解?我們近期會去,大概會給我三個月。獨立、嚴正、專業、創新,就是站在人民的角度。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.195 --> 00:10.341\n好主席謝謝麻煩請陳審計長麻煩再請陳審計長\n\n00:20.133 --> 00:44.220\n好,審計長,獨立、廉政、專業、創新是我們審計部的宗旨、使命,對不對?所以本席15分鐘跟您就教來討論一下首先,之前你在委員會裡面有承諾一個月內會針對公部門的霸凌案還有就業安定基金提出調查並且提出報告請教,什麼時候?什麼時候會提出來?\n\n00:45.959 --> 01:06.469\n當時答應都是一個月,現在年底到了就是一個月,因為當時11月,像那個調查我們已經有初步了,那個霸凌啊,因為既然要做了,要把它做好,我是全國包括中央包括地方啊,我開始整個在盤,因為這個\n\n01:08.810 --> 01:26.517\n整合盤點我們各公部門有霸凌的狀況你是調查去給這一個部門的單位主管說你們部門有沒有霸凌還是針對我們公務員不一樣喔因為過去勞動部第一次調查報告出來讓我們發現說根本就是關關相護啊\n\n01:27.777 --> 01:48.163\n利益良善．沒有直接霸凌．後來被全民華人的邪要求之後．才做第二次的調查報告．部長離開之後．調查報告就變成是真相了．第二次的調查報告出來之後．就變成是．有直接霸凌．有從屬關係．沒有利益良善．那一樣沈記長我們最重要啊\n\n01:49.025 --> 02:15.584\n注度發生這麼大的事情我們要把注度把前軸把注度整個把它盤出來哪一個地方切了規範哪一個地方切了注度有沒有訂相關的保障措施我們會就這方面做全盤的瞭解全盤瞭解所以年底以前會把這報告給出來會年底以前國人都聽到了那另外\n\n02:16.345 --> 02:34.020\n不管是外交部、交通部、速發部、衛福部、勞動部有這樣類似的狀況尤其我們有看到這個衛福部最近也有一個霸凌案件居然被人家認定是說是要求深蹲福利挺身是鼓勵沒有強迫\n\n02:34.921 --> 02:55.717\n我先請教沈記長你看到這樣的狀況這樣子的樣態算不算霸凌?算不算職場霸凌?因為這個大概規範不明確所以我們要把整個制度還有整個把它清楚的理一理所以大概會要求相關部門包括考試院包括人事總署對這方面\n\n02:56.357 --> 02:56.497\n要規範明確\n\n03:21.414 --> 03:41.320\n霸凌的樣態非常多就如同性騷一樣啊真的被受到這樣子的一個待遇如果說真的心聲不舒服親懵懵程度上他可能就構成霸凌如同校園裡面有霸凌事件有什麼以前我們還有看到說有一些這種學生他要求你說站在那邊唱國歌有沒有\n\n03:42.236 --> 04:00.050\n這某種程度上也是霸凌啊或是說現在我們看到說要求你深蹲要求你福利挺身欸好端端的我在職場裡面為什麼要受到這樣子不公平的待遇而且因為上對下的一個關係而要求這樣的狀況這某種程度上就是構成霸凌但衛福部任長不是\n\n04:00.891 --> 04:16.126\n不能造成說有些單位認為是霸凌有些單位不是霸凌那這樣子全國就沒有一致的標準了所以沈紀長您的報告裡面出來會把這些霸凌的樣態以及標準給羅列清楚是不是第一個我要求我們的同仁去看國外的狀況第二個\n\n04:18.588 --> 04:35.903\n校園的霸凌我們也要了解因為校園的霸凌也常常會發生我們也要了解校園的霸凌再來我們也會去了解國軍的霸凌因為國軍是高度嚴格管理所以這些霸凌的從這裡來看我們這個公務的一個霸凌我們是寧願從\n\n04:43.329 --> 05:00.918\n把這個標準認定清楚標準我們希望單位裡面去把這些標準訂得合理合情合理合情好我們國人期待我們年底在不到兩個禮拜的時間能夠有一個獨立廉政專業創新的審計報告再來\n\n05:04.895 --> 05:19.956\n市長一樣想請教就業安定基金很多剛剛林德福委員也請教過了本次也聽到你講是說當然要求應該勞動部要做相關的一個規範嘛我就提一點啦我們的基金管理可以有一國兩制一國多制嗎\n\n05:21.121 --> 05:43.515\n不應該吧?不應該,因為同意的附屬單位一算足情在這一次的就案令基金裡面有一個很嚴重的狀況就是當他使用了基金去做電子採購即便他12點裡面認定沈議長之前講是說這個所謂的演唱會叫做政令宣導或是政策宣傳但是實際上就案令基金裡面是沒有這樣規範不過\n\n05:45.496 --> 05:59.618\n至少省紀部這邊已經要處理可是我們要關心的是什麼關心的是說當初在救生安定基金使用的時候它其實電子採購並沒有在勞動部的官方網站上面來把這列表給列出來\n\n06:00.367 --> 06:20.774\n他畢竟是說要回歸到工程會裡面的電子採購的大水庫裡面你要特定的標案特定的關鍵字你才有辦法找到但是文化部其他部會有些部會的就相關的基金使用他的電子採購的基金使用項目他就直接羅列在他的官方網站上面\n\n06:21.474 --> 06:35.326\n所以如果說您剛剛講跟林德福委員講是說要求他們應該要公開透明的話是不是能夠先要求所有的部會基金使用只要是電子採購的部分都應該羅列在他們的官方網站您怎麼說\n\n06:36.907 --> 06:57.795\n委員是這樣剛剛我先澄清我在委員會談的那個是我們看到他是科目是出在正義宣導不是我說他那個他用正義宣導來解釋來第二個啊我們剛剛委員那講我們查到他沒採購\n\n06:59.192 --> 07:13.502\n他直接用那個開口契約他開口契約契約就是文憲、鄭麗仙還有一個大包裡面然後其中就要求廠商去處理了對不對那這樣子就更難防範了這我們是採購異常我們送檢調、送監察案\n\n07:17.065 --> 07:38.822\n好那再拉回來現在所有的就業安定基金也好或說相關基金的使用因為不只是農業勞動部啊農業部其實也有類似的狀況啊我們之前有講過是說上農產品雞蛋當時雞蛋補助的時候111年農業部就用農產品受進口損害救助基金來撥補上億元\n\n07:40.603 --> 07:56.341\n但是我們去看農產品受進口損害救濟基金的相關規定裡面其實它針對的是關稅條項與否以及開放進口而遭受損害但國內的雞蛋其實大家知道原因是飼料成本上漲跟禽流感\n\n07:57.162 --> 08:21.313\n所以他其實跟進口的關稅沒有直接的關聯好可是我們現在要求的是說所有的基金的使用各部會不能變成是部長的小金庫所以如果說有動動到所謂的電子採購的部分的話是不是應該要求所有部會他們要羅列在他們官網上面依照採購法的規定這些如果超過一定的金額都要上採購網\n\n08:22.193 --> 08:22.293\n那個委員這個\n\n08:45.134 --> 08:49.399\n我同意委員的意思好謝謝那沈議長我們要要求各部會做吧對啊當然\n\n09:04.736 --> 09:30.148\n什麼時候能夠做到?這個我們回去啊我們查核完以後啊剛剛講了像那個農委會的那些啊我們也都像有一些不合規定的我們也都把它檢列啦這所以給委員知道我們農委會也檢了3億多喔好沈記長剛剛有特別講到說會要求各部會把相關的各部會用到的電子採購放入在他們官網\n\n09:31.274 --> 09:57.228\n以招供性也讓全民能夠檢視我想預算現在是預算審查會期預算當用則用當審則審我不會要人家說這個要馬跑又要馬不吃草但是如果說不該花的費用我們一毛也不能浪費我想這是我們共同的立場來沈記長既然接下來第三點剛剛本席也特別聽您的報告請您在這次有特別提到說政府的打詐的部分\n\n09:57.948 --> 10:20.567\n但是越打越詐其實也是不爭的事實為什麼因為從詐騙的案件數跟詐騙的金額來講節節升高但其中我記得我之前在委員會的時候也請教過您我這一次再請教您因為這代表是說我們審計單位到底有沒有如實的去查核我們行政部門的一個行政效率因為112年的時候我們的財損是88億\n\n10:27.096 --> 10:48.697\n有37000多件但到113年也就是今年到10月底就已經高達7萬多件並且財損274億三倍之多詐騙的案件是兩倍財損是三倍那去年到今年為什麼突然間有大幅度的成長\n\n10:49.810 --> 10:55.715\n如果說是經濟成長我當然很拍拍手啊但不是啊是詐騙案件的成長啊是財損案件的成長啊\n\n10:57.686 --> 11:23.671\n委員非常謝謝我們第一個委員這樣玩以後我們114年我們會專案查核就是查核他這些事物都有一個真實性透明剛剛那個我看出來政府已經面對他所以他比較公開透明所以之前政府沒面對之前政府不夠公開透明\n\n11:25.672 --> 11:37.982\n那我是大概沒有說那麼第一個詐騙的情況還是非常嚴重非常嚴重非常嚴重是一個國家社會的一個很大的問題非常嚴重我們審計部一定會強化包括委員講的那些統計輸入好審計長現在疫苗版跑出500多億了\n\n11:48.411 --> 12:09.918\n是啊那500多億我們看前幾年因為詐騙案件不是你我大家共同關心我們生活在2300萬人生活在這塊土地上我們都希望政府拿出具體辦法但是具體辦法先決條件第一就是面對問題面對問題才能解決問題但過去看起來全部都是美化數字造假數字\n\n12:11.979 --> 12:40.462\n說謊的數字啊所以沈記長您剛有提到什麼時候可以提出來檢視過去為什麼過去的數字跟現在的數字天壤之別因為這樣啊鮑委員我們是每年查完以後會會有一個總結算會有審核報告出來我們是納入這個總結算的審核報告什麼時候今年年底嗎明年的我們明年的7月底會把總結算審核報告編好\n\n12:41.383 --> 13:09.881\n沈記長是要再給時間讓國人遺忘這件事情還是怎麼樣現在已經看到了你剛也講了儀表板500多億沈記長去年你今天的決算報告去年是88億今年儀表板是500億差了5倍欸那5倍這樣子的數字不用去了解跟調查嗎要啊對\n\n13:11.664 --> 13:40.961\n那你跟我講說明年7月才能夠做出來那這個是我的審核報告的一個這個能不能先讓國人了解一下就像您剛講的我們要調查全國的公部門的霸凌事件能不能先讓國人清楚明白了解到底為什麼會有那麼大的一個落差是真的今年詐騙太猖狂太氾濫還是過去的數字是造假的過去88億是沒有符合現實的委員這樣給我三個億\n\n13:44.434 --> 14:11.167\n三個月對沈議長您說的我希望真的能夠拿出獨立客觀的調查報告最後斑斑有鮮乳農業部農業部這個政策我特別翻了一下我們的決算報告其實我們審計單位已經有提醒農業部因為我們有看到的是說審計部的報告裡面國產鮮乳跟進口鮮乳是最高有差到21塊的價格\n\n14:12.788 --> 14:41.685\n那如果說2025年紐西蘭的進口液態乳﹐零關稅上路的話﹐其實會衝擊影響﹐所以省紀部報告裡面﹐已經要求農業部規劃本土乳業轉型﹐以因應衝擊﹐我給予肯定﹐可是當農業部提出來的一個做法﹐他用113年到116年的﹐養牛產業全面升級轉型計劃﹐裡面的其中一環﹐一年要花15億的公務預算﹐做什麼﹐\n\n14:42.383 --> 14:58.155\n做一個班班有先辱結果我不知道沈機長有沒有看到最近從9月開學了還沒有辦法拿到10月大家先辱之亂11月農業部部長出來講是說如果學校真的沒有辦法配合的話可以不要配合\n\n14:59.167 --> 15:21.399\n甚至我們有一些縣市政府的學校大家直接講啊要班班有鮮乳之前先拜託班班有冰箱吧不然鮮乳來那個天氣熱一下就壞掉天氣冷你要怎麼樣讓學童能夠拿回去這都是一個問題好15億的預算到現在執行了狀況真的是讓大家天怒人怨啊\n\n15:22.399 --> 15:48.262\n這樣子的一個政策錯誤的部分有沒有檢討的必要我們審計單位能夠怎麼樣來把它導正我們近期會這樣進行查核瞭解近期會查核瞭解希望做一個事情效益非常重要配套也非常重要是就是當初連審計長你都會提出來結果沒想到農業專業教育專業完全不知道沒有配套教育部雙手一攤然後就是把問題丟給地縣的學校老師\n\n15:49.683 --> 15:56.346\n來,什麼時候能夠跟國人有一個具體的瞭解?我們近期會去,大概會給我三個月。獨立、嚴正、專業、創新,就是站在人民的角度。\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.195,"end":10.341,"text":"好 主席謝謝 麻煩請陳審計長麻煩再請陳審計長"},{"start":20.133,"end":44.22,"text":"好,審計長,獨立、廉政、專業、創新是我們審計部的宗旨、使命,對不對?所以本席15分鐘跟您就教來討論一下首先,之前你在委員會裡面有承諾一個月內會針對公部門的霸凌案還有就業安定基金提出調查並且提出報告請教,什麼時候?什麼時候會提出來?"},{"start":45.959,"end":66.469,"text":"當時答應都是一個月,現在年底到了就是一個月,因為當時11月,像那個調查我們已經有初步了,那個霸凌啊,因為既然要做了,要把它做好,我是全國包括中央包括地方啊,我開始整個在盤,因為這個"},{"start":68.81,"end":86.517,"text":"整合盤點我們各公部門有霸凌的狀況你是調查去給這一個部門的單位主管說你們部門有沒有霸凌還是針對我們公務員不一樣喔因為過去勞動部第一次調查報告出來讓我們發現說根本就是關關相護啊"},{"start":87.777,"end":108.163,"text":"利益良善．沒有直接霸凌．後來被全民華人的邪要求之後．才做第二次的調查報告．部長離開之後．調查報告就變成是真相了．第二次的調查報告出來之後．就變成是．有直接霸凌．有從屬關係．沒有利益良善．那一樣 沈記長我們最重要啊"},{"start":109.025,"end":135.584,"text":"注度發生這麼大的事情我們要把注度把前軸把注度整個把它盤出來哪一個地方切了規範哪一個地方切了注度有沒有訂相關的保障措施我們會就這方面做全盤的瞭解全盤瞭解所以年底以前會把這報告給出來會年底以前國人都聽到了那另外"},{"start":136.345,"end":154.02,"text":"不管是外交部、交通部、速發部、衛福部、勞動部有這樣類似的狀況尤其我們有看到這個衛福部最近也有一個霸凌案件居然被人家認定是說是要求深蹲福利挺身是鼓勵沒有強迫"},{"start":154.921,"end":175.717,"text":"我先請教沈記長你看到這樣的狀況這樣子的樣態算不算霸凌?算不算職場霸凌?因為這個大概規範不明確所以我們要把整個制度還有整個把它清楚的理一理所以大概會要求相關部門包括考試院包括人事總署對這方面"},{"start":176.357,"end":176.497,"text":"要規範明確"},{"start":201.414,"end":221.32,"text":"霸凌的樣態非常多就如同性騷一樣啊真的被受到這樣子的一個待遇如果說真的心聲不舒服親懵懵程度上他可能就構成霸凌如同校園裡面有霸凌事件有什麼以前我們還有看到說有一些這種學生他要求你說站在那邊唱國歌有沒有"},{"start":222.236,"end":240.05,"text":"這某種程度上也是霸凌啊或是說現在我們看到說要求你深蹲要求你福利挺身欸好端端的我在職場裡面為什麼要受到這樣子不公平的待遇而且因為上對下的一個關係而要求這樣的狀況這某種程度上就是構成霸凌但衛福部任長不是"},{"start":240.891,"end":256.126,"text":"不能造成說有些單位認為是霸凌有些單位不是霸凌那這樣子全國就沒有一致的標準了所以沈紀長您的報告裡面出來會把這些霸凌的樣態以及標準給羅列清楚是不是第一個我要求我們的同仁去看國外的狀況第二個"},{"start":258.588,"end":275.903,"text":"校園的霸凌我們也要了解因為校園的霸凌也常常會發生我們也要了解校園的霸凌再來我們也會去了解國軍的霸凌因為國軍是高度嚴格管理所以這些霸凌的從這裡來看我們這個公務的一個霸凌我們是寧願從"},{"start":283.329,"end":300.918,"text":"把這個標準認定清楚標準我們希望單位裡面去把這些標準訂得合理合情合理合情好我們國人期待我們年底在不到兩個禮拜的時間能夠有一個獨立廉政專業創新的審計報告再來"},{"start":304.895,"end":319.956,"text":"市長一樣想請教就業安定基金很多剛剛林德福委員也請教過了本次也聽到你講是說當然要求應該勞動部要做相關的一個規範嘛我就提一點啦我們的基金管理可以有一國兩制一國多制嗎"},{"start":321.121,"end":343.515,"text":"不應該吧?不應該,因為同意的附屬單位一算足情在這一次的就案令基金裡面有一個很嚴重的狀況就是當他使用了基金去做電子採購即便他12點裡面認定沈議長之前講是說這個所謂的演唱會叫做政令宣導或是政策宣傳但是實際上就案令基金裡面是沒有這樣規範不過"},{"start":345.496,"end":359.618,"text":"至少省紀部這邊已經要處理可是我們要關心的是什麼關心的是說當初在救生安定基金使用的時候它其實電子採購並沒有在勞動部的官方網站上面來把這列表給列出來"},{"start":360.367,"end":380.774,"text":"他畢竟是說要回歸到工程會裡面的電子採購的大水庫裡面你要特定的標案特定的關鍵字你才有辦法找到但是文化部其他部會有些部會的就相關的基金使用他的電子採購的基金使用項目他就直接羅列在他的官方網站上面"},{"start":381.474,"end":395.326,"text":"所以如果說您剛剛講跟林德福委員講是說要求他們應該要公開透明的話是不是能夠先要求所有的部會基金使用只要是電子採購的部分都應該羅列在他們的官方網站您怎麼說"},{"start":396.907,"end":417.795,"text":"委員是這樣剛剛我先澄清我在委員會談的那個是我們看到他是科目是出在正義宣導不是我說他那個他用正義宣導來解釋來第二個啊我們剛剛委員那講我們查到他沒採購"},{"start":419.192,"end":433.502,"text":"他直接用那個開口契約他開口契約契約就是文憲、鄭麗仙還有一個大包裡面然後其中就要求廠商去處理了對不對那這樣子就更難防範了這我們是採購異常我們送檢調、送監察案"},{"start":437.065,"end":458.822,"text":"好那再拉回來現在所有的就業安定基金也好或說相關基金的使用因為不只是農業勞動部啊農業部其實也有類似的狀況啊我們之前有講過是說上農產品雞蛋當時雞蛋補助的時候111年農業部就用農產品受進口損害救助基金來撥補上億元"},{"start":460.603,"end":476.341,"text":"但是我們去看農產品受進口損害救濟基金的相關規定裡面其實它針對的是關稅條項與否以及開放進口而遭受損害但國內的雞蛋其實大家知道原因是飼料成本上漲跟禽流感"},{"start":477.162,"end":501.313,"text":"所以他其實跟進口的關稅沒有直接的關聯好可是我們現在要求的是說所有的基金的使用各部會不能變成是部長的小金庫所以如果說有動動到所謂的電子採購的部分的話是不是應該要求所有部會他們要羅列在他們官網上面依照採購法的規定這些如果超過一定的金額都要上採購網"},{"start":502.193,"end":502.293,"text":"那個委員這個"},{"start":525.134,"end":529.399,"text":"我同意委員的意思好謝謝那沈議長我們要要求各部會做吧對啊當然"},{"start":544.736,"end":570.148,"text":"什麼時候能夠做到?這個我們回去啊我們查核完以後啊剛剛講了像那個農委會的那些啊我們也都像有一些不合規定的我們也都把它檢列啦這所以給委員知道我們農委會也檢了3億多喔好 沈記長剛剛有特別講到說會要求各部會把相關的各部會用到的電子採購放入在他們官網"},{"start":571.274,"end":597.228,"text":"以招供性也讓全民能夠檢視我想預算現在是預算審查會期預算當用則用當審則審我不會要人家說這個要馬跑又要馬不吃草但是如果說不該花的費用我們一毛也不能浪費我想這是我們共同的立場來沈記長既然接下來第三點剛剛本席也特別聽您的報告請您在這次有特別提到說政府的打詐的部分"},{"start":597.948,"end":620.567,"text":"但是越打越詐其實也是不爭的事實為什麼因為從詐騙的案件數跟詐騙的金額來講節節升高但其中我記得我之前在委員會的時候也請教過您我這一次再請教您因為這代表是說我們審計單位到底有沒有如實的去查核我們行政部門的一個行政效率因為112年的時候我們的財損是88億"},{"start":627.096,"end":648.697,"text":"有37000多件但到113年也就是今年到10月底就已經高達7萬多件並且財損274億三倍之多詐騙的案件是兩倍財損是三倍那去年到今年為什麼突然間有大幅度的成長"},{"start":649.81,"end":655.715,"text":"如果說是經濟成長我當然很拍拍手啊但不是啊是詐騙案件的成長啊是財損案件的成長啊"},{"start":657.686,"end":683.671,"text":"委員非常謝謝我們第一個委員這樣玩以後我們114年我們會專案查核就是查核他這些事物都有一個真實性透明剛剛那個我看出來政府已經面對他所以他比較公開透明所以之前政府沒面對之前政府不夠公開透明"},{"start":685.672,"end":697.982,"text":"那我是大概沒有說那麼第一個詐騙的情況還是非常嚴重非常嚴重非常嚴重是一個國家社會的一個很大的問題非常嚴重我們審計部一定會強化包括委員講的那些統計輸入好 審計長現在疫苗版跑出500多億了"},{"start":708.411,"end":729.918,"text":"是啊那500多億我們看前幾年因為詐騙案件不是你我大家共同關心我們生活在2300萬人生活在這塊土地上我們都希望政府拿出具體辦法但是具體辦法先決條件第一就是面對問題面對問題才能解決問題但過去看起來全部都是美化數字造假數字"},{"start":731.979,"end":760.462,"text":"說謊的數字啊所以沈記長您剛有提到什麼時候可以提出來檢視過去為什麼過去的數字跟現在的數字天壤之別因為這樣啊 鮑委員我們是每年查完以後會會有一個總結算會有審核報告出來我們是納入這個總結算的審核報告什麼時候 今年年底嗎明年的我們明年的7月底會把總結算審核報告編好"},{"start":761.383,"end":789.881,"text":"沈記長是要再給時間讓國人遺忘這件事情還是怎麼樣現在已經看到了你剛也講了儀表板500多億沈記長去年你今天的決算報告去年是88億今年儀表板是500億差了5倍欸那5倍這樣子的數字不用去了解跟調查嗎要啊對"},{"start":791.664,"end":820.961,"text":"那你跟我講說明年7月才能夠做出來那這個是我的審核報告的一個這個能不能先讓國人了解一下就像您剛講的我們要調查全國的公部門的霸凌事件能不能先讓國人清楚明白了解到底為什麼會有那麼大的一個落差是真的今年詐騙太猖狂太氾濫還是過去的數字是造假的過去88億是沒有符合現實的委員這樣給我三個億"},{"start":824.434,"end":851.167,"text":"三個月對沈議長您說的我希望真的能夠拿出獨立客觀的調查報告最後斑斑有鮮乳農業部農業部這個政策我特別翻了一下我們的決算報告其實我們審計單位已經有提醒農業部因為我們有看到的是說審計部的報告裡面國產鮮乳跟進口鮮乳是最高有差到21塊的價格"},{"start":852.788,"end":881.685,"text":"那如果說2025年紐西蘭的進口液態乳﹐零關稅上路的話﹐其實會衝擊影響﹐所以省紀部報告裡面﹐已經要求農業部規劃本土乳業轉型﹐以因應衝擊﹐我給予肯定﹐可是當農業部提出來的一個做法﹐他用113年到116年的﹐養牛產業全面升級轉型計劃﹐裡面的其中一環﹐一年要花15億的公務預算﹐做什麼﹐"},{"start":882.383,"end":898.155,"text":"做一個班班有先辱結果我不知道沈機長有沒有看到最近從9月開學了還沒有辦法拿到10月大家先辱之亂11月農業部部長出來講是說如果學校真的沒有辦法配合的話可以不要配合"},{"start":899.167,"end":921.399,"text":"甚至我們有一些縣市政府的學校大家直接講啊要班班有鮮乳之前先拜託班班有冰箱吧不然鮮乳來那個天氣熱一下就壞掉天氣冷你要怎麼樣讓學童能夠拿回去這都是一個問題好15億的預算到現在執行了狀況真的是讓大家天怒人怨啊"},{"start":922.399,"end":948.262,"text":"這樣子的一個政策錯誤的部分有沒有檢討的必要我們審計單位能夠怎麼樣來把它導正我們近期會這樣進行查核瞭解近期會查核瞭解希望做一個事情效益非常重要配套也非常重要是就是當初連審計長你都會提出來結果沒想到農業專業教育專業完全不知道沒有配套教育部雙手一攤然後就是把問題丟給地縣的學校老師"},{"start":949.683,"end":956.346,"text":"來,什麼時候能夠跟國人有一個具體的瞭解?我們近期會去,大概會給我三個月。獨立、嚴正、專業、創新,就是站在人民的角度。"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":414,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（15時47分）主席謝謝，麻煩請陳審計長。"],["主席：麻煩再請陳審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，獨立、廉政、專業、創新是我們審計部的宗旨使命，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以本席用15分鐘跟您就教、討論一下，首先，之前你在委員會承諾一個月內會針對公部門的霸凌案，還有就業安定基金提出調查，並且提出報告，請教什麼時候？什麼時候會提出來？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：當時答應是一個月。"],["洪委員孟楷：一個月，年底到了就是一個月喔！因為當時是11月。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，調查我們已經有初步了，至於霸凌，既然要做就要把它做好，我是全國包括中央跟地方，開始整個在盤，因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：整個盤點我們各公部門的霸凌狀況？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，都有。"],["洪委員孟楷：你的調查，是問這個部門的單位主管該部門有沒有霸凌？還是針對我們公務員？這是不一樣喔！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為過去勞動部第一次的調查報告出來，讓我們發現根本就是官官相護，說「立意良善」、「沒有直接霸凌」，後來全民譁然，而且要求之後才做第二次的調查報告。部長離開之後，調查報告就變成是真相了，第二次調查報告出來之後就變成是有直接霸凌，有從屬關係，沒有立意良善。一樣，審計長……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們最重要是制度，發生這麼大的事情，我們要把制度、把權責整個盤出來，哪一個地方缺了規範？哪一個地方缺了制度？有沒有訂定相關的保障措施？我們會就這方面做全盤的了解。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以年底以前會把這報告交出來？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：會。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，年底以前，國人都聽到了。另外，不僅是外交部、交通部、數發部、衛福部、勞動部有這樣類似的狀況，尤其我們看到衛福部最近也有一個霸凌案件，居然還認定要求深蹲和伏地挺身是鼓勵，沒有強迫！我想請教審計長，你看到這樣的狀況、這樣子的樣態，算不算霸凌？算不算職場霸凌？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為規範不明確，所以我們要把整個制度清楚的理一理，所以我們大概會要求相關部門，包括考試院，包括人事總處，對這方面……"],["洪委員孟楷：要規範明確。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：還有權責，看是誰負責這個機關，像考試院有保障培訓會這些，我們同仁都已經到這些機關開始查核並了解。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，審計長，本席要求的是，希望規範要明確，霸凌的樣態非常多，就如同性騷一樣，受到這樣的待遇，如果真的心生不舒服，其實某種程度可能就構成霸凌。如同校園裡面的霸凌事件有什麼？以前我們還看到一些學生要求你站在那邊唱國歌，有沒有？這某種程度上也是霸凌啊！或是現在我們看到要求你深蹲、要求你伏地挺身，好端端的在職場裡面為什麼要受到這樣子不公平的待遇？而且因為上對下的關係而這樣要求，某種程度上就是構成霸凌，但衛福部竟然講這不是！不能造成有些單位認為是霸凌，有些單位不是霸凌，那全國就沒有一致的標準了。所以審計長，您的報告會把這些霸凌的樣態及標準羅列清楚，是不是？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：第一個，我要求我們同仁去看國外的狀況；第二個，針對校園的霸凌也要了解，因為校園霸凌也常常會發生，我們也要了解校園的霸凌；再來，我們也會去了解國軍的霸凌，因為國軍是高度嚴格管理，從這裡來看公務界的霸凌，我們寧願從嚴，把這個……"],["洪委員孟楷：標準認定清楚。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們希望各單位把這些標準訂得合理、合情。"],["洪委員孟楷：合理、合情，好，我們國人期待年底，剩不到兩個禮拜的時間，能夠有一個獨立、廉政、專業、創新的審計報告。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：再來，審計長，本席想請教就業安定基金，剛剛林德福委員也請教過了，本席也聽到你講：當然應該要要求勞動部做相關的規範。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：我就提一點，我們的基金管理可以有一國兩制、一國多制嗎？不應該吧？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：不應該，有一個附屬單位預算執行要點。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，在這一次的就業安定基金裡面有一個很嚴重的狀況，就是當他使用基金去做電子採購，即便12點裡面認定……審計長之前講的，所謂的演唱會叫做政令宣導或是政策宣傳，但是實際上就業安定基金裡面沒有這樣規範；不過，至少審計部這邊已經要處理，可是我們關心的是什麼？關心的是當初在就業安定基金使用的時候，其實電子採購並沒有在勞動部的官方網站上把這個列表出來，變成要回歸到工程會裡面的電子採購大水庫裡面，要是特定的標案、特定的關鍵字才有辦法找到；但是文化部、其他部會的一些相關基金使用，他們電子採購的基金使用項目就直接羅列在官方網站上面。如果您剛剛跟林德福委員講的是應該要要求他們公開透明，是不是能夠先要求所有部會在基金使用部分，只要是電子採購都應該羅列在他們的官方網站，您怎麼說？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員，是這樣的，我先澄清我在委員會談的，是因為我們看到他的科目是在政令宣導項下，而不是我說他是那個；第二個……"],["洪委員孟楷：是他用政令宣導來解釋。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：第二個，剛剛委員講的，我們查到他沒採購，他直接用開口契約去做文宣、政令宣導……"],["洪委員孟楷：他用一個大包，然後其中就要求廠商去處理了，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：那這樣子就更難防範了啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：那就是採購異常，我們送檢調、送監察院。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那再拉回來，現在所有的就業安定基金也好，或是相關基金的使用，因為不只是勞動部，農業部其實也有類似的狀況，我們之前有講過，像農產品雞蛋，當時雞蛋補助的時候，111年農業部就用農產品受進口損害救助基金來撥補上億元，但是我們去看農產品受進口損害救濟基金的相關規定裡面，其實它針對的是關稅調降與否，以及開放進口而遭受損害。針對國內的雞蛋，其實大家知道原因是飼料成本上漲跟禽流感，所以它其實跟進口的關稅沒有直接的關聯。可是我們現在要求的是，各部會所有基金的使用，不能變成是部長的小金庫，所以如果是有動到所謂電子採購的部分，是不是應該要求所有部會要羅列在他們的官網上面？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：依照採購法的規定，如果超過一定的金額，都是要上採購網。"],["洪委員孟楷：都要上採購網？不是！審計長，你沒有聽懂我的意思，的確，都要上採購網，但是採購網是所有部會集合在那邊，會變成我就可以隱藏在採購網的大森林裡面，我們現在要問的是，能不能像文化部，把他們自己文化部相關基金的電子採購羅列在他們的官方網站上面？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員，如果做成決議，各部會就可以來做。"],["洪委員孟楷：這本來就應該要求的啊！不然你剛剛跟林德福委員說的要公開透明是什麼意思呢？公開透明的具體作為就是這樣啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，我同意委員的意見。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝。審計長，我們會要求各部會做吧？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對！當然！"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候能夠做到？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們回去查核完了以後，且剛剛講了，像農委會的那些，甚至有一些不合規定的，我們也都把它減列了，所以也讓委員知道，針對農委會我們也減了三億多。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，審計長剛剛有特別講到，會要求各部會把相關會用到的電子採購，放入他們的官網，以昭公信，也讓全民能夠檢視。現在是預算審查會期，預算當用則用、當省則省，我不會要馬兒跑，又要馬兒不吃草，但是如果是不該花的費用，我們一毛也不能浪費，我想這是我們共同的立場。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對！對！對！"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，接下來是第三點，剛剛本席也特別聽了您的報告，其實您在這一次有特別提到政府打詐的部分，但是越打越詐其實也是不爭的事實，為什麼？因為從詐騙的案件數跟詐騙的金額來看，節節升高，記得我之前在委員會的時候也請教過您，這一次我再請教您，因為這代表的是審計單位到底有沒有如實的去查核行政部門的行政效率。112年的時候，我們的財損是88億，有三萬七千多件；但到113年，也就是今年，到10月底就已經高達七萬多件，並且財損274億，有三倍之多。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：詐騙案件數增加兩倍，財損是三倍，從去年到今年，為什麼突然間有大幅度的成長？如果是經濟成長，我當然是拍拍手，但不是如此而是詐騙案件的成長、是財損案件的成長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：非常謝謝委員，第一個，委員提問完以後，114年我們會專案查核，就是查核這些統計數字的真實性以及是否透明，剛剛提的那個，我可以看出來，政府已經面對它，所以它比較公開透明，因為打詐儀表板……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以之前政府沒面對？之前政府不夠公開透明？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我大概沒有說那麼……第一個，詐騙的情況還是非常嚴重……"],["洪委員孟楷：非常嚴重。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這是國家社會一個很大的問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：非常嚴重。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：所以我們審計部一定會強化，包括委員講的那些統計數字，像現在儀表板都跑出五百多億了。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！有五百多億，我們來看前幾年，因為詐騙案件是你我大家共同關心的，我們2,300萬人生活在這塊土地上，都希望政府拿出具體辦法，但是具體辦法的先決條件，第一就是面對問題，面對問題才能解決問題，但過去看起來全部都是美化的數字、造假的數字、說謊的數字，所以就審計長剛剛提到的，請問什麼時候可以提出來？就是檢視為什麼過去的數字跟現在數字有天壤之別？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：報告委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候能夠……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們每年查完以後會有一個總決算審核報告出來，我們會納入這個總決算的審核報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候？今年年底嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們明年的7月底會把總決算審核報告編好。"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，是要再給時間讓國人遺忘這件事情還是怎麼樣呢？現在已經看到了，你剛剛也講了儀表板五百多億……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這是我們審計的流程。"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，你今天的決算報告提到，去年是88億，今年儀表板是500億，差了五倍！五倍的數字差不用了解跟調查嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：要啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：但你跟我說明年7月才能做出來？會不會太慢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我的審核報告的一個……"],["洪委員孟楷：能不能先讓國人了解一下？就像您剛剛講的，要調查全國公部門的霸凌事件，所以能不能先讓國人清楚明白了解，到底為什麼會有那麼大的落差？是今年詐騙真的太猖狂、太氾濫，還是過去的數字造假，過去的88億沒有符合現實？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員，給我三個月。"],["洪委員孟楷：三個月？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，您說的，我希望真的能夠拿出獨立、客觀的調查報告。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["洪委員孟楷：最後是農業部的班班有鮮乳。農業部的這項政策，我特別翻了一下決算報告，發現審計單位已經提醒農業部，因為我們看到審計部在報告裡面提到，國產鮮乳跟進口鮮乳的價格最高差到21塊，如果2025年紐西蘭進口液態乳零關稅上路，其實會造成衝擊影響。所以審計部在報告裡已要求農業部規劃本土乳業轉型，以因應衝擊，這點我給予肯定。可是農業部提出來的作法，卻是用113年到116年養牛產業全面升級轉型計畫裡面的其中一環，一年花15億公務預算來做什麼？做班班有鮮乳。不知道審計長有沒有看到，9月開學還沒有辦法拿到，10月爆發鮮乳之亂，11月農業部部長出來講說，如果學校真的沒有辦法配合，可以不要配合！甚至有一些縣市政府、學校直接講，在班班有鮮乳之前先拜託班班有冰箱吧，不然鮮乳來，天氣熱一下就壞掉；天氣冷要怎麼樣讓學童拿回去？這些都是問題。好，15億的預算執行了，現在狀況真的是天怒人怨，這樣一個錯誤政策有沒有檢討的必要？審計單位能怎麼樣來導正？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們近期將進行查核了解，我們希望……"],["洪委員孟楷：近期會查核了解？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：做事情的效益非常重要，配套也非常重要！"],["洪委員孟楷：是！當初連審計長都提出來了，結果沒想到農業專業、教育專業完全不知道，沒有配套，教育部還雙手一攤，把問題丟給第一線的學校老師！來，什麼時候能讓國人有具體了解？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們近期會去，大概也給我三個月時間。"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，拜託！我再講一下，審計必須獨立、廉政、專業、創新，所以你就是要站在人民的角度來監督行政部門，拜託！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的詢問，謝謝審計長的詢答。","向院會報告，現在在我們議場二樓的來賓是來自美國東部跨州的州議員訪問團，Welcome, ladies and gentlemen.我們掌聲歡迎。","接下來登記第8位伍麗華委員之諮詢以書面提出，請審計部書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe書面諮詢：","案由：本席長期關原住民就業狀況，在第10屆立法委員任內，經多次質詢勞動部落實就業服務法規定，現在可以看到多個縣市內原住民族人口達2萬人以上地區，已陸續成立原住民公立就業服務機構，讓族人「有地方找工作」。不過，從各項數據觀察，近年原住民族失業率雖有所下降，但家庭平均收入及可支配所得仍明顯低於全國平均水平，顯示出原住民仍處在結構性之經濟不平等。因此本席要求針對如何增強原住民在勞動市場中之競爭力，以及相關主管機關如何積極協助以改善原住民就業狀況，於兩個月內提供書面報告。","說明：","一、原住民族委員會「112年原住民族就業狀況調查」結果觀察，原住民族失業率自98年起逐年有所下降，不過家庭年平均收入仍遠低於全體家庭，數據中也顯示，有酬就業者中有11.47%平均月薪「未滿2萬元」。","二、再從原民會發布的110年台灣原住民族經濟狀況調查，分析原住民族家庭之收入來源結構發現，原住民族倚賴薪資收入之程度雖有下降，仍遠高於全體家庭。","三、行政院主計總處「家庭收支調查報告」，推算原住民族家庭於我國全體家庭所處之經濟地位，能看出有33.84%的原住民族家庭相對應全體家庭最低所得組，顯見原住民族對照全體家庭之經濟地位，呈現相對弱勢。","綜上所述，從近年原住民就業情形，原住民與全體國民相較，在家庭平均收入、薪資仰賴程度等統計數據上，仍存有明顯差距。本席建議政府各相關主管部會應積極協助，以改善原住民族就業狀況，彌補結構性之差異。"],["主席：接下來請登記第9號賴士葆委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":432,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-13","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","鍾佳濱","廖先翔","林憶君","吳琪銘","林德福","賴惠員","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","賴士葆"],"page_start":396,"meetingDate":["2024-12-17"],"gazette_id":"1140104","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140104_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第13次會議紀錄","content":"審計長列席報告「中華民國112年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」審核經\n過並備諮詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1140104_00002"}}}