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\"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"注\", \"start\": 613.929, \"end\": 614.129, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 614.129, \"end\": 614.63, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 614.63, \"end\": 615.23, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"齁\"}, {\"word\": \"繼\"}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 615.23, \"end\": 615.41, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"油\", \"start\": 615.41, \"end\": 615.51, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"齁\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 615.51, \"end\": 615.55, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 615.55, \"end\": 615.891, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"吳\"}, {\"word\": \"秉\"}, {\"word\": \"樂\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 615.891, \"end\": 616.051, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"齁\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 616.051, \"end\": 616.191, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 616.191, \"end\": 616.271, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 616.271, \"end\": 616.391, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"賴\"}, {\"word\": \"世\", \"start\": 616.391, \"end\": 616.511, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"鮑\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 616.511, \"end\": 616.531, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,089 --> 00:00:25,351\n新管會彭金榮主委委員早主委早早這個我剛剛聽到你跟林委員的詢答你剛剛有提到說可能是因為這個美國降息一碼不符合市場的預期可是我最近這幾個月看到的都是大家都是預期要降息一碼而且那個他們的那個\n\n2\n00:00:27,152 --> 00:00:52,299\n他們那個巴奧爾這兩個月也是說就降息一碼甚至一個月前還有人在討論說也有可能不降息那所以降息一碼我個人是覺得應該是蠻符合預期的而且這個地方是跟年底作戰我覺得跟應該有些關係的因為美國人會計年度是到國曆年聖誕節那你\n\n3\n00:00:55,839 --> 00:01:15,876\n現在看本來降息應該是對股市有利的事情那當然你也可以把它講說就是因為降息不符合預期應該多降一點那降不夠所以大家失望性的拋出我的看法是比較接近這個有可能是年末的作帳那在台灣以及在整個東亞股市外資的撤出\n\n4\n00:01:17,857 --> 00:01:28,844\n聽起來金額很大但是其實對他投資總金額來講的比例也是不大但是那個也是應該是作帳的需求這是我的看法的想法給你參考看看那可能這個所以過去狀況都是類似的到了年底接近聖誕節的時候都會出現一些這樣子的狀況\n\n5\n00:01:41,035 --> 00:02:07,870\n那再來就是說要請教的就是說我們最近我看到了媒體的報導這當然不是跟金融會直接相關的關係但是老是提到老年人被詐騙那很嚴重所以其實在黃主委的時代他對於這個老年人的這個金融安全他是有特別要求的對各金融機構那這一部分你的做法怎麼樣你的想法怎麼樣\n\n6\n00:02:09,556 --> 00:02:29,431\n這個確實其實我覺得老年實際上是一個不是一個特定它是一個漸進的過程有些比如說初老還有一些是末老這些大概是因為這樣來看當然比如說尤其現在台灣高齡化社會有些我們現在的所謂初老像比如說現在很多拿那個老人證65歲的人其實他非常非常正常\n\n7\n00:02:30,131 --> 00:02:53,849\n所以我覺得說要有更細緻的做法那對於逐漸老化尤其很多的金融商品是很長期的這部分我們就要考慮到不是購買當時還有後面像比如很多信託的商品就是來做這些事情還有像保險也要考慮到這個問題所以我覺得未來要營造一個所謂金融友善除了保護它以外那我們會對有些它的權益我們可以做更細緻的規劃\n\n8\n00:02:55,370 --> 00:03:18,905\n是因為我看到這個統計數字這個113年以來當然你剛剛說是一個逐漸老化的過程也很難用客觀的數字去評量說你的心智到底是不是有逐漸退化的過程但是總是要抓一個客觀的年齡層過去我們大概是抓70或是6560也有65也有對\n\n9\n00:03:20,686 --> 00:03:32,956\n那現在問題是我看到113年以來無論是受到詐騙或是遭遇到金融消費糾紛的那個比例都有在增高的局勢那金融消費糾紛比例增高是什麼狀況呢\n\n10\n00:03:34,248 --> 00:03:51,872\n我們有請那個評議中心也有做一些了解確實前面幾年有升高最近是比較平緩就是那個金融詐騙還有就是高齡的來申訴的部分主要申訴大概都是申訴哪一方面的內容這個應該說沒關係評議這邊也可以幫忙回答\n\n11\n00:03:55,293 --> 00:04:21,695\n文文我們去了解目前申訴案件有些是信用卡消費貸償的部分信用卡部分也是一個重點還有保險的部分的一些信用卡消費的貸償是什麼意思他應該是說整個消費款項的話就是說他有可能會先付就是有些東西信用卡他會先給他一筆錢然後接下來的話就是他先去還一筆錢給信用卡先繳信用卡的一個款項那後來就形成一些糾紛發生怎麼樣為什麼這樣會發生糾紛呢\n\n12\n00:04:24,323 --> 00:04:47,660\n他本身的話應該因為信用卡的部分的話他們有就是我可以跟你報告一下因為信用卡的時候我們是消費之後才會去繳款嘛對不對對但有些可能會是先預繳一些款項給信用卡公司所以目前的話我們在處理這一塊就會比較嚴謹一點因為他可能會先去付一筆錢然後再因為我自己也去那這樣子如果我先預繳錢給消費信用卡公司他會不會信用卡公司變成在接受存款啊\n\n13\n00:04:50,174 --> 00:05:16,634\n那是不是在經營銀行業?它不是吸收存款它是說比如說我今天可能要出國的話我可能會先繳一些錢就是可能交易的一個一角啦那一角的話後面就有一些糾紛在那這部分也有企平益中益在做一些處理啦那也跟委員報告事實上整個整個平穩在觀察說整個申訴案件那個比例確實有委員講的沒錯有提高啦但是跟分母也有點關係因為112年的時候因為那時候還有一點點防疫保障所以分母比較大那這塊我們會持續來做一個\n\n14\n00:05:18,175 --> 00:05:35,141\n我要跟評議中心講幾個我個人認為的觀念也是給主委參考第一個你們不要常常講說我這個評議反正如果沒有達成結論或是怎麼樣的話只是給法院參考你可以再去法院搞我是來自法院的你那個評議會讓這個\n\n15\n00:05:39,614 --> 00:06:02,910\n法院可能會有一部分的影響另外一點就是你會讓相對的金融機構他就有恃無恐他覺得他平行中心就挺我那我要跟你說就一個消費者而言尤其是老年消費者而言他無論是在金融、法律、契約能力各方面的社會資歷上面明顯是不對等的\n\n16\n00:06:03,649 --> 00:06:24,074\n你的金融機構無論是錢、人、法律能力、契約能力什麼都高於消費者一大截所以人照理來講是要義強扶弱這樣才有公道那當然不是說我們就是可以閉著眼睛說法律怎麼規定我不管不是這樣\n\n17\n00:06:25,339 --> 00:06:34,415\n但是你一定要常常記得這個因為兩邊的身份是不相當的無論是哪一個位階都不相當所以你們在做這個評議的時候\n\n18\n00:06:36,294 --> 00:06:57,352\n我覺得這一點要是值得參考一定要把這個東西記在心裡再來就是我們希望說我以前一直提一個觀念但是到現在都一直沒有改不要拿這些金融機關的錢金融這些公司的錢他們該付的錢另外的去嘛不要直接拿他們錢來編你們的預算或是放到你們的基金裡面來\n\n19\n00:06:59,233 --> 00:07:25,108\n國家的總預算那麼大那個大水庫理論你進到國家其他的公庫裡面去你再從國家這邊拿錢來編預算來弄這個評議老是被人家講說你看你們就是拿人家這個金融機構的錢啊說你們的評議只是公正性會受到質疑吧我講的這樣子的概念當然是講了很多年但是都一直沒有完成可能是會計科目或怎麼樣的問題\n\n20\n00:07:27,083 --> 00:07:37,679\n如果你們願意這樣做我們願意挺你們啊我們何必為了那一兩億元然後去背一個這樣子的罵名呢背一個這樣子的懷疑呢這是不值得啦這個給你參考謝謝委員我剛剛簡單回應一下就是說\n\n21\n00:07:42,386 --> 00:08:10,646\n我在評議中心擔任過兩屆的董事一屆的評議委員我們的評議有個很重要的概念叫做公平合理原則的適用它會推翻很多法律上面的規定所以過去這個東西是它很重要的一個武器就是說法規雖然這樣規定我覺得不符合公平那公平合理它就可以做這件事情我想這個我們來落實就是每個人的經驗不太相同當然會來到我們立法委員的辦公室陳情的都是比較極端的案子可是我來我看到了有一些評議\n\n22\n00:08:11,647 --> 00:08:15,191\n就我以法律的經驗跟我過去的工作經驗我看起來是不公道\n\n23\n00:08:16,685 --> 00:08:42,195\n所以我可能看到的都是因為採樣會偏頗今天如果公正處理了或是他覺得滿意他就不會來了他就覺得他受到委屈才會到立法院辦公室來申訴但是我看到的幾個案件裡面我都就是沒有採取這樣的原則所以我今天才會來提醒主委來提醒這個評議這一邊要注意這個問題我以前在當法官的時候剛開始當法官的時候\n\n24\n00:08:44,214 --> 00:09:06,575\n陳靜遠說那種非常輕微的案件啊我講說這這麼輕微的案件這個有什麼好爭的啊這個就趕快給他處理結果當時我的神敗我的庭長就跟我講說對你一個法官來講這是一個非常輕微的案件沒有錯但是這個當事人可能他這一輩子只有這個案件所以如果我很述述而且沒有去思慮很周圍的去處理\n\n25\n00:09:07,703 --> 00:09:23,199\n當事人他的不滿意可能是一輩子的而不會覺得說就醫生啊看感冒大家都是一樣這個感冒這個流行性感冒你也感冒他也感冒就趕快3秒鐘5秒鐘就開個藥給你病人的感覺是生病的是我啊難過的是我啊\n\n26\n00:09:24,059 --> 00:09:41,706\n阿你怎麼為什麼我來看醫生你這3秒鐘5秒鐘就給我打發走了所以我覺得應該要抱持這樣子的觀念另外因為韓國的政局不穩韓幣短期內貶值我是覺得有點嚴重那當然這韓國人內政我們也沒辦法干預但是我們金管會這邊也要\n\n27\n00:09:42,586 --> 00:10:04,924\n對於這種如果鄰國本來跟我們是有在貿易上面有一些競爭或是互補關係的國家的這個貨幣如果有巨額的波動的時候是不是也應該要有以待之呢那當然尤其像比如說韓國跟我們這麼近很多這麼密切像韓國發生這件事情的時候我們都高度的警戒當時比如聽到他戒嚴他整個都非常的\n\n28\n00:10:05,484 --> 00:10:16,531\n那還好是他6個小時就結束是那慢慢就變成是一個他們政爭的問題是那否則的話其實上這個對我們的影響我們都應該隨時非常密切的關注好謝謝你齁繼續加油齁謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝吳秉樂委員齁接下來我們請賴世鮑委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t25351\t新管會彭金榮主委委員早主委早早這個我剛剛聽到你跟林委員的詢答你剛剛有提到說可能是因為這個美國降息一碼不符合市場的預期可是我最近這幾個月看到的都是大家都是預期要降息一碼而且那個他們的那個\n27152\t52299\t他們那個巴奧爾這兩個月也是說就降息一碼甚至一個月前還有人在討論說也有可能不降息那所以降息一碼我個人是覺得應該是蠻符合預期的而且這個地方是跟年底作戰我覺得跟應該有些關係的因為美國人會計年度是到國曆年聖誕節那你\n55839\t75876\t現在看本來降息應該是對股市有利的事情那當然你也可以把它講說就是因為降息不符合預期應該多降一點那降不夠所以大家失望性的拋出我的看法是比較接近這個有可能是年末的作帳那在台灣以及在整個東亞股市外資的撤出\n77857\t88844\t聽起來金額很大但是其實對他投資總金額來講的比例也是不大但是那個也是應該是作帳的需求這是我的看法的想法給你參考看看那可能這個所以過去狀況都是類似的到了年底接近聖誕節的時候都會出現一些這樣子的狀況\n101035\t127870\t那再來就是說要請教的就是說我們最近我看到了媒體的報導這當然不是跟金融會直接相關的關係但是老是提到老年人被詐騙那很嚴重所以其實在黃主委的時代他對於這個老年人的這個金融安全他是有特別要求的對各金融機構那這一部分你的做法怎麼樣你的想法怎麼樣\n129556\t149431\t這個確實其實我覺得老年實際上是一個不是一個特定它是一個漸進的過程有些比如說初老還有一些是末老這些大概是因為這樣來看當然比如說尤其現在台灣高齡化社會有些我們現在的所謂初老像比如說現在很多拿那個老人證65歲的人其實他非常非常正常\n150131\t173849\t所以我覺得說要有更細緻的做法那對於逐漸老化尤其很多的金融商品是很長期的這部分我們就要考慮到不是購買當時還有後面像比如很多信託的商品就是來做這些事情還有像保險也要考慮到這個問題所以我覺得未來要營造一個所謂金融友善除了保護它以外那我們會對有些它的權益我們可以做更細緻的規劃\n175370\t198905\t是 因為我看到這個統計數字這個113年以來當然你剛剛說是一個逐漸老化的過程也很難用客觀的數字去評量說你的心智到底是不是有逐漸退化的過程但是總是要抓一個客觀的年齡層過去我們大概是抓70或是6560也有 65也有 對\n200686\t212956\t那現在問題是我看到113年以來無論是受到詐騙或是遭遇到金融消費糾紛的那個比例都有在增高的局勢那金融消費糾紛比例增高是什麼狀況呢\n214248\t231872\t我們有請那個評議中心也有做一些了解確實前面幾年有升高最近是比較平緩就是那個金融詐騙還有就是高齡的來申訴的部分主要申訴大概都是申訴哪一方面的內容這個應該說沒關係評議這邊也可以幫忙回答\n235293\t261695\t文文我們去了解目前申訴案件有些是信用卡消費貸償的部分信用卡部分也是一個重點還有保險的部分的一些信用卡消費的貸償是什麼意思他應該是說整個消費款項的話就是說他有可能會先付就是有些東西信用卡他會先給他一筆錢然後接下來的話就是他先去還一筆錢給信用卡先繳信用卡的一個款項那後來就形成一些糾紛發生怎麼樣為什麼這樣會發生糾紛呢\n264323\t287660\t他本身的話應該因為信用卡的部分的話他們有就是我可以跟你報告一下因為信用卡的時候我們是消費之後才會去繳款嘛對不對對但有些可能會是先預繳一些款項給信用卡公司所以目前的話我們在處理這一塊就會比較嚴謹一點因為他可能會先去付一筆錢然後再因為我自己也去那這樣子如果我先預繳錢給消費信用卡公司他會不會信用卡公司變成在接受存款啊\n290174\t316634\t那是不是在經營銀行業?它不是吸收存款它是說比如說我今天可能要出國的話我可能會先繳一些錢就是可能交易的一個一角啦那一角的話後面就有一些糾紛在那這部分也有企平益中益在做一些處理啦那也跟委員報告事實上整個整個平穩在觀察說整個申訴案件那個比例確實有委員講的沒錯有提高啦但是跟分母也有點關係因為112年的時候因為那時候還有一點點防疫保障所以分母比較大那這塊我們會持續來做一個\n318175\t335141\t我要跟評議中心講幾個我個人認為的觀念也是給主委參考第一個你們不要常常講說我這個評議反正如果沒有達成結論或是怎麼樣的話只是給法院參考你可以再去法院搞我是來自法院的你那個評議會讓這個\n339614\t362910\t法院可能會有一部分的影響另外一點就是你會讓相對的金融機構他就有恃無恐他覺得他平行中心就挺我那我要跟你說就一個消費者而言尤其是老年消費者而言他無論是在金融、法律、契約能力各方面的社會資歷上面明顯是不對等的\n363649\t384074\t你的金融機構無論是錢、人、法律能力、契約能力什麼都高於消費者一大截所以人照理來講是要義強扶弱這樣才有公道那當然不是說我們就是可以閉著眼睛說法律怎麼規定我不管不是這樣\n385339\t394415\t但是你一定要常常記得這個因為兩邊的身份是不相當的無論是哪一個位階都不相當所以你們在做這個評議的時候\n396294\t417352\t我覺得這一點要是值得參考一定要把這個東西記在心裡再來就是我們希望說我以前一直提一個觀念但是到現在都一直沒有改不要拿這些金融機關的錢金融這些公司的錢他們該付的錢另外的去嘛不要直接拿他們錢來編你們的預算或是放到你們的基金裡面來\n419233\t445108\t國家的總預算那麼大那個大水庫理論你進到國家其他的公庫裡面去你再從國家這邊拿錢來編預算來弄這個評議老是被人家講說你看你們就是拿人家這個金融機構的錢啊說你們的評議只是公正性會受到質疑吧我講的這樣子的概念當然是講了很多年但是都一直沒有完成可能是會計科目或怎麼樣的問題\n447083\t457679\t如果你們願意這樣做我們願意挺你們啊我們何必為了那一兩億元然後去背一個這樣子的罵名呢背一個這樣子的懷疑呢這是不值得啦這個給你參考謝謝委員我剛剛簡單回應一下就是說\n462386\t490646\t我在評議中心擔任過兩屆的董事一屆的評議委員我們的評議有個很重要的概念叫做公平合理原則的適用它會推翻很多法律上面的規定所以過去這個東西是它很重要的一個武器就是說法規雖然這樣規定我覺得不符合公平那公平合理它就可以做這件事情我想這個我們來落實就是每個人的經驗不太相同當然會來到我們立法委員的辦公室陳情的都是比較極端的案子可是我來我看到了有一些評議\n491647\t495191\t就我以法律的經驗跟我過去的工作經驗我看起來是不公道\n496685\t522195\t所以我可能看到的都是因為採樣會偏頗今天如果公正處理了或是他覺得滿意他就不會來了他就覺得他受到委屈才會到立法院辦公室來申訴但是我看到的幾個案件裡面我都就是沒有採取這樣的原則所以我今天才會來提醒主委來提醒這個評議這一邊要注意這個問題我以前在當法官的時候剛開始當法官的時候\n524214\t546575\t陳靜遠說那種非常輕微的案件啊我講說這這麼輕微的案件這個有什麼好爭的啊這個就趕快給他處理結果當時我的神敗我的庭長就跟我講說對你一個法官來講這是一個非常輕微的案件沒有錯但是這個當事人可能他這一輩子只有這個案件所以如果我很述述而且沒有去思慮很周圍的去處理\n547703\t563199\t當事人他的不滿意可能是一輩子的而不會覺得說就醫生啊看感冒大家都是一樣這個感冒這個流行性感冒你也感冒他也感冒就趕快3秒鐘5秒鐘就開個藥給你病人的感覺是生病的是我啊難過的是我啊\n564059\t581706\t阿你怎麼為什麼我來看醫生你這3秒鐘5秒鐘就給我打發走了所以我覺得應該要抱持這樣子的觀念另外因為韓國的政局不穩韓幣短期內貶值我是覺得有點嚴重那當然這韓國人內政我們也沒辦法干預但是我們金管會這邊也要\n582586\t604924\t對於這種如果鄰國本來跟我們是有在貿易上面有一些競爭或是互補關係的國家的這個貨幣如果有巨額的波動的時候是不是也應該要有以待之呢那當然尤其像比如說韓國跟我們這麼近很多這麼密切像韓國發生這件事情的時候我們都高度的警戒當時比如聽到他戒嚴他整個都非常的\n605484\t616531\t那還好是他6個小時就結束是那慢慢就變成是一個他們政爭的問題是那否則的話其實上這個對我們的影響我們都應該隨時非常密切的關注好謝謝你齁繼續加油齁謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝吳秉樂委員齁接下來我們請賴世鮑委員\n","txt":"新管會彭金榮主委委員早主委早早這個我剛剛聽到你跟林委員的詢答你剛剛有提到說可能是因為這個美國降息一碼不符合市場的預期可是我最近這幾個月看到的都是大家都是預期要降息一碼而且那個他們的那個\n他們那個巴奧爾這兩個月也是說就降息一碼甚至一個月前還有人在討論說也有可能不降息那所以降息一碼我個人是覺得應該是蠻符合預期的而且這個地方是跟年底作戰我覺得跟應該有些關係的因為美國人會計年度是到國曆年聖誕節那你\n現在看本來降息應該是對股市有利的事情那當然你也可以把它講說就是因為降息不符合預期應該多降一點那降不夠所以大家失望性的拋出我的看法是比較接近這個有可能是年末的作帳那在台灣以及在整個東亞股市外資的撤出\n聽起來金額很大但是其實對他投資總金額來講的比例也是不大但是那個也是應該是作帳的需求這是我的看法的想法給你參考看看那可能這個所以過去狀況都是類似的到了年底接近聖誕節的時候都會出現一些這樣子的狀況\n那再來就是說要請教的就是說我們最近我看到了媒體的報導這當然不是跟金融會直接相關的關係但是老是提到老年人被詐騙那很嚴重所以其實在黃主委的時代他對於這個老年人的這個金融安全他是有特別要求的對各金融機構那這一部分你的做法怎麼樣你的想法怎麼樣\n這個確實其實我覺得老年實際上是一個不是一個特定它是一個漸進的過程有些比如說初老還有一些是末老這些大概是因為這樣來看當然比如說尤其現在台灣高齡化社會有些我們現在的所謂初老像比如說現在很多拿那個老人證65歲的人其實他非常非常正常\n所以我覺得說要有更細緻的做法那對於逐漸老化尤其很多的金融商品是很長期的這部分我們就要考慮到不是購買當時還有後面像比如很多信託的商品就是來做這些事情還有像保險也要考慮到這個問題所以我覺得未來要營造一個所謂金融友善除了保護它以外那我們會對有些它的權益我們可以做更細緻的規劃\n是 因為我看到這個統計數字這個113年以來當然你剛剛說是一個逐漸老化的過程也很難用客觀的數字去評量說你的心智到底是不是有逐漸退化的過程但是總是要抓一個客觀的年齡層過去我們大概是抓70或是6560也有 65也有 對\n那現在問題是我看到113年以來無論是受到詐騙或是遭遇到金融消費糾紛的那個比例都有在增高的局勢那金融消費糾紛比例增高是什麼狀況呢\n我們有請那個評議中心也有做一些了解確實前面幾年有升高最近是比較平緩就是那個金融詐騙還有就是高齡的來申訴的部分主要申訴大概都是申訴哪一方面的內容這個應該說沒關係評議這邊也可以幫忙回答\n文文我們去了解目前申訴案件有些是信用卡消費貸償的部分信用卡部分也是一個重點還有保險的部分的一些信用卡消費的貸償是什麼意思他應該是說整個消費款項的話就是說他有可能會先付就是有些東西信用卡他會先給他一筆錢然後接下來的話就是他先去還一筆錢給信用卡先繳信用卡的一個款項那後來就形成一些糾紛發生怎麼樣為什麼這樣會發生糾紛呢\n他本身的話應該因為信用卡的部分的話他們有就是我可以跟你報告一下因為信用卡的時候我們是消費之後才會去繳款嘛對不對對但有些可能會是先預繳一些款項給信用卡公司所以目前的話我們在處理這一塊就會比較嚴謹一點因為他可能會先去付一筆錢然後再因為我自己也去那這樣子如果我先預繳錢給消費信用卡公司他會不會信用卡公司變成在接受存款啊\n那是不是在經營銀行業?它不是吸收存款它是說比如說我今天可能要出國的話我可能會先繳一些錢就是可能交易的一個一角啦那一角的話後面就有一些糾紛在那這部分也有企平益中益在做一些處理啦那也跟委員報告事實上整個整個平穩在觀察說整個申訴案件那個比例確實有委員講的沒錯有提高啦但是跟分母也有點關係因為112年的時候因為那時候還有一點點防疫保障所以分母比較大那這塊我們會持續來做一個\n我要跟評議中心講幾個我個人認為的觀念也是給主委參考第一個你們不要常常講說我這個評議反正如果沒有達成結論或是怎麼樣的話只是給法院參考你可以再去法院搞我是來自法院的你那個評議會讓這個\n法院可能會有一部分的影響另外一點就是你會讓相對的金融機構他就有恃無恐他覺得他平行中心就挺我那我要跟你說就一個消費者而言尤其是老年消費者而言他無論是在金融、法律、契約能力各方面的社會資歷上面明顯是不對等的\n你的金融機構無論是錢、人、法律能力、契約能力什麼都高於消費者一大截所以人照理來講是要義強扶弱這樣才有公道那當然不是說我們就是可以閉著眼睛說法律怎麼規定我不管不是這樣\n但是你一定要常常記得這個因為兩邊的身份是不相當的無論是哪一個位階都不相當所以你們在做這個評議的時候\n我覺得這一點要是值得參考一定要把這個東西記在心裡再來就是我們希望說我以前一直提一個觀念但是到現在都一直沒有改不要拿這些金融機關的錢金融這些公司的錢他們該付的錢另外的去嘛不要直接拿他們錢來編你們的預算或是放到你們的基金裡面來\n國家的總預算那麼大那個大水庫理論你進到國家其他的公庫裡面去你再從國家這邊拿錢來編預算來弄這個評議老是被人家講說你看你們就是拿人家這個金融機構的錢啊說你們的評議只是公正性會受到質疑吧我講的這樣子的概念當然是講了很多年但是都一直沒有完成可能是會計科目或怎麼樣的問題\n如果你們願意這樣做我們願意挺你們啊我們何必為了那一兩億元然後去背一個這樣子的罵名呢背一個這樣子的懷疑呢這是不值得啦這個給你參考謝謝委員我剛剛簡單回應一下就是說\n我在評議中心擔任過兩屆的董事一屆的評議委員我們的評議有個很重要的概念叫做公平合理原則的適用它會推翻很多法律上面的規定所以過去這個東西是它很重要的一個武器就是說法規雖然這樣規定我覺得不符合公平那公平合理它就可以做這件事情我想這個我們來落實就是每個人的經驗不太相同當然會來到我們立法委員的辦公室陳情的都是比較極端的案子可是我來我看到了有一些評議\n就我以法律的經驗跟我過去的工作經驗我看起來是不公道\n所以我可能看到的都是因為採樣會偏頗今天如果公正處理了或是他覺得滿意他就不會來了他就覺得他受到委屈才會到立法院辦公室來申訴但是我看到的幾個案件裡面我都就是沒有採取這樣的原則所以我今天才會來提醒主委來提醒這個評議這一邊要注意這個問題我以前在當法官的時候剛開始當法官的時候\n陳靜遠說那種非常輕微的案件啊我講說這這麼輕微的案件這個有什麼好爭的啊這個就趕快給他處理結果當時我的神敗我的庭長就跟我講說對你一個法官來講這是一個非常輕微的案件沒有錯但是這個當事人可能他這一輩子只有這個案件所以如果我很述述而且沒有去思慮很周圍的去處理\n當事人他的不滿意可能是一輩子的而不會覺得說就醫生啊看感冒大家都是一樣這個感冒這個流行性感冒你也感冒他也感冒就趕快3秒鐘5秒鐘就開個藥給你病人的感覺是生病的是我啊難過的是我啊\n阿你怎麼為什麼我來看醫生你這3秒鐘5秒鐘就給我打發走了所以我覺得應該要抱持這樣子的觀念另外因為韓國的政局不穩韓幣短期內貶值我是覺得有點嚴重那當然這韓國人內政我們也沒辦法干預但是我們金管會這邊也要\n對於這種如果鄰國本來跟我們是有在貿易上面有一些競爭或是互補關係的國家的這個貨幣如果有巨額的波動的時候是不是也應該要有以待之呢那當然尤其像比如說韓國跟我們這麼近很多這麼密切像韓國發生這件事情的時候我們都高度的警戒當時比如聽到他戒嚴他整個都非常的\n那還好是他6個小時就結束是那慢慢就變成是一個他們政爭的問題是那否則的話其實上這個對我們的影響我們都應該隨時非常密切的關注好謝謝你齁繼續加油齁謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝吳秉樂委員齁接下來我們請賴世鮑委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:25.351\n新管會彭金榮主委委員早主委早早這個我剛剛聽到你跟林委員的詢答你剛剛有提到說可能是因為這個美國降息一碼不符合市場的預期可是我最近這幾個月看到的都是大家都是預期要降息一碼而且那個他們的那個\n\n00:27.152 --> 00:52.299\n他們那個巴奧爾這兩個月也是說就降息一碼甚至一個月前還有人在討論說也有可能不降息那所以降息一碼我個人是覺得應該是蠻符合預期的而且這個地方是跟年底作戰我覺得跟應該有些關係的因為美國人會計年度是到國曆年聖誕節那你\n\n00:55.839 --> 01:15.876\n現在看本來降息應該是對股市有利的事情那當然你也可以把它講說就是因為降息不符合預期應該多降一點那降不夠所以大家失望性的拋出我的看法是比較接近這個有可能是年末的作帳那在台灣以及在整個東亞股市外資的撤出\n\n01:17.857 --> 01:28.844\n聽起來金額很大但是其實對他投資總金額來講的比例也是不大但是那個也是應該是作帳的需求這是我的看法的想法給你參考看看那可能這個所以過去狀況都是類似的到了年底接近聖誕節的時候都會出現一些這樣子的狀況\n\n01:41.035 --> 02:07.870\n那再來就是說要請教的就是說我們最近我看到了媒體的報導這當然不是跟金融會直接相關的關係但是老是提到老年人被詐騙那很嚴重所以其實在黃主委的時代他對於這個老年人的這個金融安全他是有特別要求的對各金融機構那這一部分你的做法怎麼樣你的想法怎麼樣\n\n02:09.556 --> 02:29.431\n這個確實其實我覺得老年實際上是一個不是一個特定它是一個漸進的過程有些比如說初老還有一些是末老這些大概是因為這樣來看當然比如說尤其現在台灣高齡化社會有些我們現在的所謂初老像比如說現在很多拿那個老人證65歲的人其實他非常非常正常\n\n02:30.131 --> 02:53.849\n所以我覺得說要有更細緻的做法那對於逐漸老化尤其很多的金融商品是很長期的這部分我們就要考慮到不是購買當時還有後面像比如很多信託的商品就是來做這些事情還有像保險也要考慮到這個問題所以我覺得未來要營造一個所謂金融友善除了保護它以外那我們會對有些它的權益我們可以做更細緻的規劃\n\n02:55.370 --> 03:18.905\n是因為我看到這個統計數字這個113年以來當然你剛剛說是一個逐漸老化的過程也很難用客觀的數字去評量說你的心智到底是不是有逐漸退化的過程但是總是要抓一個客觀的年齡層過去我們大概是抓70或是6560也有65也有對\n\n03:20.686 --> 03:32.956\n那現在問題是我看到113年以來無論是受到詐騙或是遭遇到金融消費糾紛的那個比例都有在增高的局勢那金融消費糾紛比例增高是什麼狀況呢\n\n03:34.248 --> 03:51.872\n我們有請那個評議中心也有做一些了解確實前面幾年有升高最近是比較平緩就是那個金融詐騙還有就是高齡的來申訴的部分主要申訴大概都是申訴哪一方面的內容這個應該說沒關係評議這邊也可以幫忙回答\n\n03:55.293 --> 04:21.695\n文文我們去了解目前申訴案件有些是信用卡消費貸償的部分信用卡部分也是一個重點還有保險的部分的一些信用卡消費的貸償是什麼意思他應該是說整個消費款項的話就是說他有可能會先付就是有些東西信用卡他會先給他一筆錢然後接下來的話就是他先去還一筆錢給信用卡先繳信用卡的一個款項那後來就形成一些糾紛發生怎麼樣為什麼這樣會發生糾紛呢\n\n04:24.323 --> 04:47.660\n他本身的話應該因為信用卡的部分的話他們有就是我可以跟你報告一下因為信用卡的時候我們是消費之後才會去繳款嘛對不對對但有些可能會是先預繳一些款項給信用卡公司所以目前的話我們在處理這一塊就會比較嚴謹一點因為他可能會先去付一筆錢然後再因為我自己也去那這樣子如果我先預繳錢給消費信用卡公司他會不會信用卡公司變成在接受存款啊\n\n04:50.174 --> 05:16.634\n那是不是在經營銀行業?它不是吸收存款它是說比如說我今天可能要出國的話我可能會先繳一些錢就是可能交易的一個一角啦那一角的話後面就有一些糾紛在那這部分也有企平益中益在做一些處理啦那也跟委員報告事實上整個整個平穩在觀察說整個申訴案件那個比例確實有委員講的沒錯有提高啦但是跟分母也有點關係因為112年的時候因為那時候還有一點點防疫保障所以分母比較大那這塊我們會持續來做一個\n\n05:18.175 --> 05:35.141\n我要跟評議中心講幾個我個人認為的觀念也是給主委參考第一個你們不要常常講說我這個評議反正如果沒有達成結論或是怎麼樣的話只是給法院參考你可以再去法院搞我是來自法院的你那個評議會讓這個\n\n05:39.614 --> 06:02.910\n法院可能會有一部分的影響另外一點就是你會讓相對的金融機構他就有恃無恐他覺得他平行中心就挺我那我要跟你說就一個消費者而言尤其是老年消費者而言他無論是在金融、法律、契約能力各方面的社會資歷上面明顯是不對等的\n\n06:03.649 --> 06:24.074\n你的金融機構無論是錢、人、法律能力、契約能力什麼都高於消費者一大截所以人照理來講是要義強扶弱這樣才有公道那當然不是說我們就是可以閉著眼睛說法律怎麼規定我不管不是這樣\n\n06:25.339 --> 06:34.415\n但是你一定要常常記得這個因為兩邊的身份是不相當的無論是哪一個位階都不相當所以你們在做這個評議的時候\n\n06:36.294 --> 06:57.352\n我覺得這一點要是值得參考一定要把這個東西記在心裡再來就是我們希望說我以前一直提一個觀念但是到現在都一直沒有改不要拿這些金融機關的錢金融這些公司的錢他們該付的錢另外的去嘛不要直接拿他們錢來編你們的預算或是放到你們的基金裡面來\n\n06:59.233 --> 07:25.108\n國家的總預算那麼大那個大水庫理論你進到國家其他的公庫裡面去你再從國家這邊拿錢來編預算來弄這個評議老是被人家講說你看你們就是拿人家這個金融機構的錢啊說你們的評議只是公正性會受到質疑吧我講的這樣子的概念當然是講了很多年但是都一直沒有完成可能是會計科目或怎麼樣的問題\n\n07:27.083 --> 07:37.679\n如果你們願意這樣做我們願意挺你們啊我們何必為了那一兩億元然後去背一個這樣子的罵名呢背一個這樣子的懷疑呢這是不值得啦這個給你參考謝謝委員我剛剛簡單回應一下就是說\n\n07:42.386 --> 08:10.646\n我在評議中心擔任過兩屆的董事一屆的評議委員我們的評議有個很重要的概念叫做公平合理原則的適用它會推翻很多法律上面的規定所以過去這個東西是它很重要的一個武器就是說法規雖然這樣規定我覺得不符合公平那公平合理它就可以做這件事情我想這個我們來落實就是每個人的經驗不太相同當然會來到我們立法委員的辦公室陳情的都是比較極端的案子可是我來我看到了有一些評議\n\n08:11.647 --> 08:15.191\n就我以法律的經驗跟我過去的工作經驗我看起來是不公道\n\n08:16.685 --> 08:42.195\n所以我可能看到的都是因為採樣會偏頗今天如果公正處理了或是他覺得滿意他就不會來了他就覺得他受到委屈才會到立法院辦公室來申訴但是我看到的幾個案件裡面我都就是沒有採取這樣的原則所以我今天才會來提醒主委來提醒這個評議這一邊要注意這個問題我以前在當法官的時候剛開始當法官的時候\n\n08:44.214 --> 09:06.575\n陳靜遠說那種非常輕微的案件啊我講說這這麼輕微的案件這個有什麼好爭的啊這個就趕快給他處理結果當時我的神敗我的庭長就跟我講說對你一個法官來講這是一個非常輕微的案件沒有錯但是這個當事人可能他這一輩子只有這個案件所以如果我很述述而且沒有去思慮很周圍的去處理\n\n09:07.703 --> 09:23.199\n當事人他的不滿意可能是一輩子的而不會覺得說就醫生啊看感冒大家都是一樣這個感冒這個流行性感冒你也感冒他也感冒就趕快3秒鐘5秒鐘就開個藥給你病人的感覺是生病的是我啊難過的是我啊\n\n09:24.059 --> 09:41.706\n阿你怎麼為什麼我來看醫生你這3秒鐘5秒鐘就給我打發走了所以我覺得應該要抱持這樣子的觀念另外因為韓國的政局不穩韓幣短期內貶值我是覺得有點嚴重那當然這韓國人內政我們也沒辦法干預但是我們金管會這邊也要\n\n09:42.586 --> 10:04.924\n對於這種如果鄰國本來跟我們是有在貿易上面有一些競爭或是互補關係的國家的這個貨幣如果有巨額的波動的時候是不是也應該要有以待之呢那當然尤其像比如說韓國跟我們這麼近很多這麼密切像韓國發生這件事情的時候我們都高度的警戒當時比如聽到他戒嚴他整個都非常的\n\n10:05.484 --> 10:16.531\n那還好是他6個小時就結束是那慢慢就變成是一個他們政爭的問題是那否則的話其實上這個對我們的影響我們都應該隨時非常密切的關注好謝謝你齁繼續加油齁謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝吳秉樂委員齁接下來我們請賴世鮑委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":25.351,"text":"新管會彭金榮主委委員早主委早早這個我剛剛聽到你跟林委員的詢答你剛剛有提到說可能是因為這個美國降息一碼不符合市場的預期可是我最近這幾個月看到的都是大家都是預期要降息一碼而且那個他們的那個"},{"start":27.152,"end":52.299,"text":"他們那個巴奧爾這兩個月也是說就降息一碼甚至一個月前還有人在討論說也有可能不降息那所以降息一碼我個人是覺得應該是蠻符合預期的而且這個地方是跟年底作戰我覺得跟應該有些關係的因為美國人會計年度是到國曆年聖誕節那你"},{"start":55.839,"end":75.876,"text":"現在看本來降息應該是對股市有利的事情那當然你也可以把它講說就是因為降息不符合預期應該多降一點那降不夠所以大家失望性的拋出我的看法是比較接近這個有可能是年末的作帳那在台灣以及在整個東亞股市外資的撤出"},{"start":77.857,"end":88.844,"text":"聽起來金額很大但是其實對他投資總金額來講的比例也是不大但是那個也是應該是作帳的需求這是我的看法的想法給你參考看看那可能這個所以過去狀況都是類似的到了年底接近聖誕節的時候都會出現一些這樣子的狀況"},{"start":101.035,"end":127.87,"text":"那再來就是說要請教的就是說我們最近我看到了媒體的報導這當然不是跟金融會直接相關的關係但是老是提到老年人被詐騙那很嚴重所以其實在黃主委的時代他對於這個老年人的這個金融安全他是有特別要求的對各金融機構那這一部分你的做法怎麼樣你的想法怎麼樣"},{"start":129.556,"end":149.431,"text":"這個確實其實我覺得老年實際上是一個不是一個特定它是一個漸進的過程有些比如說初老還有一些是末老這些大概是因為這樣來看當然比如說尤其現在台灣高齡化社會有些我們現在的所謂初老像比如說現在很多拿那個老人證65歲的人其實他非常非常正常"},{"start":150.131,"end":173.849,"text":"所以我覺得說要有更細緻的做法那對於逐漸老化尤其很多的金融商品是很長期的這部分我們就要考慮到不是購買當時還有後面像比如很多信託的商品就是來做這些事情還有像保險也要考慮到這個問題所以我覺得未來要營造一個所謂金融友善除了保護它以外那我們會對有些它的權益我們可以做更細緻的規劃"},{"start":175.37,"end":198.905,"text":"是 因為我看到這個統計數字這個113年以來當然你剛剛說是一個逐漸老化的過程也很難用客觀的數字去評量說你的心智到底是不是有逐漸退化的過程但是總是要抓一個客觀的年齡層過去我們大概是抓70或是6560也有 65也有 對"},{"start":200.686,"end":212.956,"text":"那現在問題是我看到113年以來無論是受到詐騙或是遭遇到金融消費糾紛的那個比例都有在增高的局勢那金融消費糾紛比例增高是什麼狀況呢"},{"start":214.248,"end":231.872,"text":"我們有請那個評議中心也有做一些了解確實前面幾年有升高最近是比較平緩就是那個金融詐騙還有就是高齡的來申訴的部分主要申訴大概都是申訴哪一方面的內容這個應該說沒關係評議這邊也可以幫忙回答"},{"start":235.293,"end":261.695,"text":"文文我們去了解目前申訴案件有些是信用卡消費貸償的部分信用卡部分也是一個重點還有保險的部分的一些信用卡消費的貸償是什麼意思他應該是說整個消費款項的話就是說他有可能會先付就是有些東西信用卡他會先給他一筆錢然後接下來的話就是他先去還一筆錢給信用卡先繳信用卡的一個款項那後來就形成一些糾紛發生怎麼樣為什麼這樣會發生糾紛呢"},{"start":264.323,"end":287.66,"text":"他本身的話應該因為信用卡的部分的話他們有就是我可以跟你報告一下因為信用卡的時候我們是消費之後才會去繳款嘛對不對對但有些可能會是先預繳一些款項給信用卡公司所以目前的話我們在處理這一塊就會比較嚴謹一點因為他可能會先去付一筆錢然後再因為我自己也去那這樣子如果我先預繳錢給消費信用卡公司他會不會信用卡公司變成在接受存款啊"},{"start":290.174,"end":316.634,"text":"那是不是在經營銀行業?它不是吸收存款它是說比如說我今天可能要出國的話我可能會先繳一些錢就是可能交易的一個一角啦那一角的話後面就有一些糾紛在那這部分也有企平益中益在做一些處理啦那也跟委員報告事實上整個整個平穩在觀察說整個申訴案件那個比例確實有委員講的沒錯有提高啦但是跟分母也有點關係因為112年的時候因為那時候還有一點點防疫保障所以分母比較大那這塊我們會持續來做一個"},{"start":318.175,"end":335.141,"text":"我要跟評議中心講幾個我個人認為的觀念也是給主委參考第一個你們不要常常講說我這個評議反正如果沒有達成結論或是怎麼樣的話只是給法院參考你可以再去法院搞我是來自法院的你那個評議會讓這個"},{"start":339.614,"end":362.91,"text":"法院可能會有一部分的影響另外一點就是你會讓相對的金融機構他就有恃無恐他覺得他平行中心就挺我那我要跟你說就一個消費者而言尤其是老年消費者而言他無論是在金融、法律、契約能力各方面的社會資歷上面明顯是不對等的"},{"start":363.649,"end":384.074,"text":"你的金融機構無論是錢、人、法律能力、契約能力什麼都高於消費者一大截所以人照理來講是要義強扶弱這樣才有公道那當然不是說我們就是可以閉著眼睛說法律怎麼規定我不管不是這樣"},{"start":385.339,"end":394.415,"text":"但是你一定要常常記得這個因為兩邊的身份是不相當的無論是哪一個位階都不相當所以你們在做這個評議的時候"},{"start":396.294,"end":417.352,"text":"我覺得這一點要是值得參考一定要把這個東西記在心裡再來就是我們希望說我以前一直提一個觀念但是到現在都一直沒有改不要拿這些金融機關的錢金融這些公司的錢他們該付的錢另外的去嘛不要直接拿他們錢來編你們的預算或是放到你們的基金裡面來"},{"start":419.233,"end":445.108,"text":"國家的總預算那麼大那個大水庫理論你進到國家其他的公庫裡面去你再從國家這邊拿錢來編預算來弄這個評議老是被人家講說你看你們就是拿人家這個金融機構的錢啊說你們的評議只是公正性會受到質疑吧我講的這樣子的概念當然是講了很多年但是都一直沒有完成可能是會計科目或怎麼樣的問題"},{"start":447.083,"end":457.679,"text":"如果你們願意這樣做我們願意挺你們啊我們何必為了那一兩億元然後去背一個這樣子的罵名呢背一個這樣子的懷疑呢這是不值得啦這個給你參考謝謝委員我剛剛簡單回應一下就是說"},{"start":462.386,"end":490.646,"text":"我在評議中心擔任過兩屆的董事一屆的評議委員我們的評議有個很重要的概念叫做公平合理原則的適用它會推翻很多法律上面的規定所以過去這個東西是它很重要的一個武器就是說法規雖然這樣規定我覺得不符合公平那公平合理它就可以做這件事情我想這個我們來落實就是每個人的經驗不太相同當然會來到我們立法委員的辦公室陳情的都是比較極端的案子可是我來我看到了有一些評議"},{"start":491.647,"end":495.191,"text":"就我以法律的經驗跟我過去的工作經驗我看起來是不公道"},{"start":496.685,"end":522.195,"text":"所以我可能看到的都是因為採樣會偏頗今天如果公正處理了或是他覺得滿意他就不會來了他就覺得他受到委屈才會到立法院辦公室來申訴但是我看到的幾個案件裡面我都就是沒有採取這樣的原則所以我今天才會來提醒主委來提醒這個評議這一邊要注意這個問題我以前在當法官的時候剛開始當法官的時候"},{"start":524.214,"end":546.575,"text":"陳靜遠說那種非常輕微的案件啊我講說這這麼輕微的案件這個有什麼好爭的啊這個就趕快給他處理結果當時我的神敗我的庭長就跟我講說對你一個法官來講這是一個非常輕微的案件沒有錯但是這個當事人可能他這一輩子只有這個案件所以如果我很述述而且沒有去思慮很周圍的去處理"},{"start":547.703,"end":563.199,"text":"當事人他的不滿意可能是一輩子的而不會覺得說就醫生啊看感冒大家都是一樣這個感冒這個流行性感冒你也感冒他也感冒就趕快3秒鐘5秒鐘就開個藥給你病人的感覺是生病的是我啊難過的是我啊"},{"start":564.059,"end":581.706,"text":"阿你怎麼為什麼我來看醫生你這3秒鐘5秒鐘就給我打發走了所以我覺得應該要抱持這樣子的觀念另外因為韓國的政局不穩韓幣短期內貶值我是覺得有點嚴重那當然這韓國人內政我們也沒辦法干預但是我們金管會這邊也要"},{"start":582.586,"end":604.924,"text":"對於這種如果鄰國本來跟我們是有在貿易上面有一些競爭或是互補關係的國家的這個貨幣如果有巨額的波動的時候是不是也應該要有以待之呢那當然尤其像比如說韓國跟我們這麼近很多這麼密切像韓國發生這件事情的時候我們都高度的警戒當時比如聽到他戒嚴他整個都非常的"},{"start":605.484,"end":616.531,"text":"那還好是他6個小時就結束是那慢慢就變成是一個他們政爭的問題是那否則的話其實上這個對我們的影響我們都應該隨時非常密切的關注好謝謝你齁繼續加油齁謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝吳秉樂委員齁接下來我們請賴世鮑委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":211,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時21分）主席，麻煩請金管會彭金隆主委。"],["主席：彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：主委早。我剛剛聽到你跟林委員的詢答，你剛剛有提到說可能是因為美國降息一碼不符合市場的預期，可是我最近這幾個月看到的大家都是預期要降息一碼，而且他們的那個叫什麼名字？"],["彭主任委員金隆：鮑爾。"],["吳委員秉叡：對，鮑爾，他這兩個月也是說就降息一碼，甚至一個月前還有人在討論說也有可能不降息，所以降息一碼，我個人是覺得應該是滿符合預期的，而且這個地方跟年底作帳我覺得應該有一些關係，因為美國人的會計年度是到國曆年嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：聖誕節。"],["吳委員秉叡：聖誕節嘛！那你想想看，本來降息應該是對股市有利的事情，當然你也可以把它講說就是因為降息不符合預期，應該多降一點，降不夠，所以大家失望性地拋出，我的看法是比較接近有可能是年末的作帳，在臺灣以及在整個東亞股市外資的撤出，聽起來金額很大啦，但是其實對它的投資總金額來講比例也是不大，但是那個應該也是作帳的需求啦，這是我的看法、想法給你參考看看。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以過去的狀況都是類似的，到了年底接近聖誕節的時候，都會出現一些這樣子的狀況。","再來要請教的是，最近我看到媒體報導，這當然不是跟金管會有直接相關，但老是提到老年人被詐騙的情況很嚴重，其實在黃主委時代，對於老年人的金融安全，他對各金融機構是有特別要求的，這部分你的作法是怎麼樣？你的想法是怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得老年實際上不是一個特定的，它是一個漸進的過程，比如說初老，還有一些是末老，大概是這樣來看，當然比如說，尤其現在臺灣是高齡化社會，有些我們現在所謂的初老，比如說現在很多拿老人證、65歲的人，其實他非常非常正常，所以我覺得要有更細緻的作法。對於逐漸老化，尤其很多金融商品是很長期的，這部分我們就要考慮到不是購買當時，還有後面，比如說很多信託的商品就是來做這些事情，還有像保險也要考慮到這個問題，所以我覺得未來要營造一個所謂的金融友善，除了保護他以外，對於他的有些權益，我們可以做更細緻的規劃。"],["吳委員秉叡：是，因為我看到這個統計數字，113年以來，當然你剛才說是一個逐漸老化的過程，也很難用客觀的數字去評量你的心智到底是不是有逐漸退化的過程，但總是要抓一個客觀的年齡層。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：過去我們大概是抓70或是65。"],["彭主任委員金隆：60也有，65也有、70……"],["吳委員秉叡：現在問題是我看到113年以來，無論是受到詐騙或是遭遇到金融消費糾紛的比例都有增高的趨勢，金融消費糾紛比例增高是什麼狀況呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們有請評議中心去做一些了解，確實前面幾年有升高，最近是比較平緩，就是金融詐騙還有高齡者來申訴的部分……"],["吳委員秉叡：主要申訴的大概都是哪一方面的內容？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個應該說……"],["吳委員秉叡：沒關係，評議這邊也可以幫忙回答。"],["林處長志憲：委員，我們去了解，目前申訴案件有些是信用卡消費代償的部分，信用卡的部分也是一個重點，還有保險的部分一些……"],["吳委員秉叡：信用卡消費代償是什麼意思？"],["林處長志憲：應該是說整個消費款項，他有可能會先付，就是有些東西，信用卡的部分，他會先給他一筆錢，然後接下來就是他先去還一筆錢給信用卡，先繳信用卡的一個款項，後來就形成一些糾紛。"],["吳委員秉叡：為什麼這樣會發生糾紛呢？"],["林處長志憲：他本身的話，因為信用卡的部分……委員，跟你報告一下，因為信用卡有時候我們是消費之後才會去繳款嘛，對不對？"],["吳委員秉叡：對。"],["林處長志憲：但有些可能會是先預繳一些款項給信用卡公司，所以目前我們在處理這一塊就會比較嚴謹一點，因為他可能會先去付一筆錢，因為我自己……"],["吳委員秉叡：那這樣子的話，如果我先預繳錢給信用卡公司，信用卡公司會不會變成在接受存款？那是不是在經營銀行業？"],["林處長志憲：委員，他不是吸收存款，而是譬如說我今天要出國的話，我可能會先繳一些錢，就是可能交易的一個溢繳，那溢繳的話，後面就有一些糾紛在，這部分有請評議中心在做一些處理。也跟委員報告，事實上，整個評議委員在觀察整個申訴案件，確實委員講的沒錯，這個比例是有提高，但是跟分母也有點關係，因為112年那時候還有一點點防疫保單，所以分母比較大，這一塊我們會持續來做一個處理。"],["吳委員秉叡：我要跟評議中心講幾個我個人認為的觀念，也是給主委參考。第一個，你們不要常常講說我這個評議反正如果沒有達成結論或是怎麼樣的話，只是給法院參考，你可以再去法院告，我是來自法院，你那個評議可能會讓法院有一部分的影響，另外一點，你會讓相對的金融機構就有恃無恐，它會覺得評議中心就挺我。我要跟你說，就一個消費者而言，尤其是老年消費者而言，他無論是在金融、法律、契約能力、各方面的社會資歷上面，明顯是不對等的，金融機構無論是錢、人、法律能力、契約能力，什麼東西都高於消費者一大截，所以照理來講是要抑強扶弱，這樣才有公道，當然不是我們就閉著眼睛說法律怎麼規定我不管，不是這樣，但是你一定要常常記得這個，因為兩邊的身分是不相當的，無論是哪一個位階都不相當，所以你們在做這個評議的時候，我覺得這一點是值得參考的，一定要把這個東西記在心裡。","再來就是我們希望，我以前一直提一個觀念，但是到現在都一直沒有改，不要拿這些金融機關的錢、這些金融公司的錢，他們該付的錢另外去處理嘛，不要直接拿他們的錢來編你們的預算，或是放到你們的基金裡面來，國家的總預算那麼大，那個大水庫理論，你進到國家其他的公庫裡面去，你再從國家這邊拿錢編預算來弄這個評議，不要老是被人家講，你看你們就是拿人家金融機構的錢，所以你們評議的公正性會受到質疑嘛，我講這樣的概念當然講了很多年，但是都一直沒有完成，可能是會計科目或是怎麼樣的問題，如果你們願意這樣做，我們願意挺你們啊，我們何必為了那1、2億元，然後去背一個這樣子的罵名、背一個這樣子的懷疑呢？這不值得啦！這個給你參考。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。我簡單回應一下，我在評議中心擔任過兩屆董事、一屆評議委員，我們的評議有一個很重要的概念，叫做公平合理原則的適用，他會推翻很多法律上面的規定，所以過去這個東西是他很重要的一個武器，就是說法規雖然這樣規定，若覺得不符合公平合理，他就可以做這件事情，我想這個我們來落實……"],["吳委員秉叡：每個人的經驗不太相同啦，當然會來到我們立法委員辦公室陳情的都是比較極端的案子。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：可是我看到有一些評議，就我以法律的經驗跟我過去的工作經驗來看，我看起來是不公道。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是、是。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以我可能看到的都是……因為採樣會偏頗嘛，今天如果公正處理了或是他覺得滿意了，他就不會來，他就是覺得他受到委屈，他才會到立法委員的辦公室來申訴，但是我看到的幾個案件裡面，就是沒有採取這樣的原則，所以我今天才會來提醒主委，提醒評議這一邊要注意這個問題。我以前在當法官的時候，剛開始當法官的時候，曾經有那種非常輕微的案件，我想說這麼輕微的案件，這個有什麼好爭的？這個就趕快給他處理，結果當時我的前輩、我的庭長就跟我說：對你一個法官來講，這是一個非常輕微的案件沒有錯，但是這個當事人可能他這一輩子只有這個案件，所以如果我很迅速而且沒有思慮很周延的去處理，當事人他的不滿意可能是一輩子，而不會覺得像醫生看感冒，大家都是一樣，這個感冒、這個流行性感冒，你也感冒、他也感冒，就趕快3秒鐘、5秒鐘就開個藥給你。病人的感覺是生病的是我啊，難過的是我啊，為什麼我來看醫生，你3秒鐘、5秒鐘就給我打發走了？所以我覺得應該要抱持這樣子的觀念啦。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：另外，因為韓國的政局不穩，韓幣短期內貶值，我是覺得有點嚴重啦，當然這是韓國的內政，我們也沒辦法干預，但是我們金管會這邊也要對於這種，如果鄰國本來跟我們在貿易上是有一些競爭或是互補關係的國家，他們的貨幣如果有巨額波動的時候，是不是也應該要有以待之呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然，尤其比如說韓國跟我們那麼近，很多這麼密切，像韓國發生這件事情的時候，我們都高度的警戒，當時比如說聽到他們戒嚴，整個都非常的……還好是6個小時就結束，慢慢就變成是一個他們政爭的問題，否則的話，其實像這個對我們的影響，我們都應該隨時非常密切的關注。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，謝謝你，繼續加油，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳秉叡委員。","接下來我們請賴士葆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-11","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","李坤城","李彥秀","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","郭國文","洪孟楷","羅明才","葉元之","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會、銀行局、證券期貨局、\n保險局、檢查局收支部分（僅詢答）；二、審查中華民國 114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預\n算營業部分，有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有限公司（僅詢答）；三、審查中\n華民國 114 年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分，有關金融監督管理委員會主管：\n（僅詢答）(一)特別收入基金─金融監督管理基金、(二)信託基金─保險業務發展基金","agenda_id":"1140901_00002"}}}