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965.626, \"end\": 965.826, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 965.826, \"end\": 966.026, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 966.026, \"end\": 966.386, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 966.386, \"end\": 966.526, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 966.526, \"end\": 966.686, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 966.686, \"end\": 966.846, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 966.846, \"end\": 967.426, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"值\", \"start\": 967.426, \"end\": 967.586, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 967.586, \"end\": 968.287, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 968.287, \"end\": 968.447, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 968.447, \"end\": 968.567, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 968.567, \"end\": 968.647, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 968.647, \"end\": 968.867, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"必\", \"start\": 968.867, \"end\": 968.987, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 968.987, \"end\": 969.407, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 969.407, \"end\": 969.507, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 969.507, \"end\": 969.527, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:11,878 --> 00:00:19,282\n謝謝主席有請我們法務部部長曾部長有請曾部長矯正署署長部長有幾個問題來請教第一個法務部你們跟別的單位比較不太一樣你們要面臨的\n\n2\n00:00:35,285 --> 00:00:43,599\n很多在立法院裡面接受國會議員質詢的時候面相會有所不同所以我剛才看你這樣跟黃國昌這樣一句來一句去,那是對的啦\n\n3\n00:00:48,274 --> 00:01:17,777\n那不是他告訴你之後你就點注注那有些國會議員在這個地方講每一個人在質詢他有他訴求的一個對象可是站在法務部的一個立場的話你確實是應該把事情給去講清楚但我本席今天要特別來提出這個問題來救教就是說關於受刑人所有權力的一個累進的一個處遇要來請教我們矯正署這個地方到底有沒有研議改善的一個措施\n\n4\n00:01:19,175 --> 00:01:36,541\n本席在從進來到立法院這世界裡面我在各個委員會我都盡量去但是來到司法法制這麼無聊的一個委員會裡面我反而會對於很多學者專家提出的一個看法比較有那個機會去做一個研讀那譬如說\n\n5\n00:01:39,797 --> 00:01:57,191\n這個整個法制觀念的一個改變整個社會氛圍的一個改變這個廠長一走就是幾十年的路我想從2001年大法官會議528號解釋當初去講強制工作的部分他認為是合憲的\n\n6\n00:01:58,012 --> 00:02:20,185\n但是走了20年以後到2021年,施治812號裡面他又認為刑法第90條針對犯罪有犯罪習性的人遊蕩懶惰誠信而犯罪先進去勞動處所強制工作這個部分他提出批判甚至認為說違憲就是說台灣人二十年後他觀念也會去做一個改變\n\n7\n00:02:26,608 --> 00:02:36,914\n這個就是整個社會裡面對整個法制大家會來做一個反省那本席想就教兩位的就是說我們司法改革國是會議裡面一直有這樣的一個討論在我們\n\n8\n00:02:40,941 --> 00:03:04,426\n從2018年開始去做相關的一個研究那到今年的2月16號矯正署還有研商跟一堆的一個會議裡面我都一一今天要提出諮詢我都給你們給拜讀了那這些年來實務界跟學術界也在討論這樣的一個命題就受刑人你剛入監的時候接見跟發信的次數你受到嚴格的限制那就是處長這個你比較厲害你起來來,來來來\n\n9\n00:03:08,592 --> 00:03:09,733\n收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分\n\n10\n00:03:34,291 --> 00:03:48,315\n這個其實都是有討論的一個餘地那我們如果從一系列相關受薪人的大法官解釋跟憲法法庭的判決裡面這個我們可以知道觀念就改變了你從4至第755號訴訟權4至756號通信權到4至812號強制工作這個再再都顯示受薪人的基本權的保障逐漸去受到重視\n\n11\n00:04:01,579 --> 00:04:18,629\n可是呢當一個社會案件一發生以後啊你們全部專業的觀念全部又扭曲又扭轉了我們受到這個社會的當下的一個氛圍影響太大可是喔司法這個部分\n\n12\n00:04:20,282 --> 00:04:29,108\n你們不能像我們禮拜年那樣,禮拜年我們寮就瘋了你知道嗎?寮有聲量啊,寮有雙名聽到會爽啊,所以大家每一個人著墨的焦點不同啊。你們的保持冷靜啊,你們的保持冷靜啊,你們那個整個偵查不公開,不定我也把你撬過去了,但是啊,有一些你們都錯了,你們也是冤枉啊。你像譬如說一個案件啊,我也給你講,譬如說有人來跟我們檢記啊,\n\n13\n00:04:49,565 --> 00:04:50,306\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管\n\n14\n00:05:09,158 --> 00:05:31,388\n這奇怪怎麼偵查全部都揭露啊有時候哪是你們揭露是人家媒體懂得比你們還多啊有時候你們在辦案的方向還媒體跟你們提醒他掌握的資料比你都還要多啊所以到底是有時候很多案件到底是誰去洩漏偵查中的一個秘密啊有時候都很難論斷但確實啊如果一個偵辦中的一個案件啊\n\n15\n00:05:32,722 --> 00:05:33,583\n五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n\n16\n00:05:52,654 --> 00:06:16,745\n到了2006年它實質上更改為限制的一個緩和,也就是說分了很多級,那另外還有憂鬱的一個處遇來評斷可不可超過基本生活之外的一個享受,那這個跟台灣差別太大,台灣沒有辦法,我們沒有這樣的一個進步的一個概念。我們也認為這樣子的話,好像獸心人到監獄裡面去是好像過得非常爽。\n\n17\n00:06:17,805 --> 00:06:24,287\n那所以我想就教的就是說法務部目前到底有沒有研議替代處意這樣的一個方案就教署長\n\n18\n00:06:27,009 --> 00:06:29,111\n審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n\n19\n00:06:53,243 --> 00:06:53,684\n稅務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分\n\n20\n00:07:11,287 --> 00:07:12,748\n審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n\n21\n00:07:36,156 --> 00:08:01,282\n改為考察制也叫審慎要讓公正客觀社會經得起社會的檢視那這個部分...你看我對他就好我連答案就給他秀在電腦上給你偷看你知道嗎那我的意思就是說其實本席一直認為每一個人成長背景不同像我來自於屏東的鄉下我家我以前出門我家有個小店以前做刑犯都去打酒頭\n\n22\n00:08:06,139 --> 00:08:21,656\n時代改變了,你說這樣的一個方式還對嗎?過去的強制工作,哪是要讓它復歸社會?以前的強制工作,因為時代的不同,它是在改造你的思想。現在誰敢改造誰的思想?\n\n23\n00:08:24,096 --> 00:08:26,638\n收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金\n\n24\n00:08:47,310 --> 00:09:03,241\n我們確實還有精進的地方你說你自營作業的部分我看連施茂林在當法務部長期間你矯正署也去推展了你所謂的一監所一特色比如說你台中女子監獄你就經典巧克力我們屏東監獄也做有名的或頂新醬油金門的頂新養生面確實帶來更高的一個收入那佔總體收容人比例6%也只有6%而已\n\n25\n00:09:12,907 --> 00:09:33,942\n那間外作業的比例因為你壽星人需要外溢監的一個資格需要配合累進廚藝等級更高的狀況之下你那個人數更少了人數更少了所以本席要請教部長跟署長就是說不管你是委託或者自營或者間外的一個作業你關於作業基金的部分你們到底有改善方案嗎?\n\n26\n00:09:36,942 --> 00:09:58,047\n報告委員委託的部分我們會配合直訊勞委會勞發署進來開相關的會議因為他們對廠商比較了解盡量朝著對受請人有利的部分來做一些意向還有委託的部分我們會\n\n27\n00:10:00,328 --> 00:10:01,708\n收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金\n\n28\n00:10:22,901 --> 00:10:24,122\n收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金\n\n29\n00:10:40,111 --> 00:10:40,671\n收支部分關於法務部主管\n\n30\n00:10:56,277 --> 00:11:14,304\n我今天直接問你,就是說矯正署署長很少有機會在國會裡面這麼完整的一個做一個陳述,因為國會裡面也不太管這一些。我接下來進入深水區,就是說在去年在修法的外間條例的時候,本席是一路反對,因為我認為那是一種民粹,那是一種民粹,就是說我們去看看外間的一個改變,\n\n31\n00:11:24,209 --> 00:11:32,093\n收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金\n\n32\n00:11:51,414 --> 00:12:18,402\n立法院會有壓力這合理很正常尤其是政府常常必須要去回應社會的一個需求但是呢我想來請教部長跟署長就是說萬一人家一個定位你去把它做一個回想從到去年2023年之前不管是哪一黨哪一個政黨在執政其實它都是進步的\n\n33\n00:12:19,102 --> 00:12:22,425\n收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金\n\n34\n00:12:45,660 --> 00:12:55,773\n收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管\n\n35\n00:13:00,610 --> 00:13:27,275\n跟委員做簡單說明,去年8月份我們新條例實施,大概我們有臨險4次。臨險4次裡面,新條例到外遇監這些受刑人從來沒有發生過在工作中脫逃或是說他緩加探視沒有回來監獄報到。所以我們有兼顧到社會的安全。\n\n36\n00:13:28,095 --> 00:13:31,577\n收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分\n\n37\n00:13:50,810 --> 00:13:55,994\n收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管\n\n38\n00:14:14,608 --> 00:14:19,533\n收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管\n\n39\n00:14:31,886 --> 00:14:32,686\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n\n40\n00:14:57,521 --> 00:15:25,887\n我告訴部長跟署長我去看到了台中女子監獄的一個外議監的分間我看那個林美玲她在2006年的訪談十位受信人裡面她也去認為說跟外界的溝通管道變多那我去另外2010年的研究裡面對外議監的修建農業發展創新並提供受信人的處遇北中南東外議監我的孟維德我也去拜讀了這是今年最新的\n\n41\n00:15:27,047 --> 00:15:46,001\n對這一些訪談的人你就都認為啊對於整個復歸社會是具備有成效的啦也就是說怎麼樣讓壽星人重新再回歸到這個社會啊今天我所提出這樣的一個修法我為什麼要做這樣的一個論述我非常一貫我非常一貫我就認為他\n\n42\n00:15:48,939 --> 00:16:09,527\n我們把立法院在整個消極條件我們去犯罪的類型我們去設定以後這個部分我們沒有去變動你最後的一個臨選裡面還是在你行政部門在你法務部積極條件這個部分確實啊我今天看到各黨提出這樣的一個修法是好好的來值得討論修正的一個必要以上謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11878\t19282\t謝謝主席有請我們法務部部長曾部長有請曾部長矯正署署長部長有幾個問題來請教第一個法務部你們跟別的單位比較不太一樣你們要面臨的\n35285\t43599\t很多在立法院裡面接受國會議員質詢的時候面相會有所不同所以我剛才看你這樣跟黃國昌這樣一句來一句去,那是對的啦\n48274\t77777\t那不是他告訴你之後你就點注注那有些國會議員在這個地方講每一個人在質詢他有他訴求的一個對象可是站在法務部的一個立場的話你確實是應該把事情給去講清楚但我本席今天要特別來提出這個問題來救教就是說關於受刑人所有權力的一個累進的一個處遇要來請教我們矯正署這個地方到底有沒有研議改善的一個措施\n79175\t96541\t本席在從進來到立法院這世界裡面我在各個委員會我都盡量去但是來到司法法制這麼無聊的一個委員會裡面我反而會對於很多學者專家提出的一個看法比較有那個機會去做一個研讀那譬如說\n99797\t117191\t這個整個法制觀念的一個改變整個社會氛圍的一個改變這個廠長一走就是幾十年的路我想從2001年大法官會議528號解釋當初去講強制工作的部分他認為是合憲的\n118012\t140185\t但是走了20年以後到2021年,施治812號裡面他又認為刑法第90條針對犯罪有犯罪習性的人遊蕩懶惰誠信而犯罪先進去勞動處所強制工作這個部分他提出批判甚至認為說違憲就是說台灣人二十年後他觀念也會去做一個改變\n146608\t156914\t這個就是整個社會裡面對整個法制大家會來做一個反省那本席想就教兩位的就是說我們司法改革國是會議裡面一直有這樣的一個討論在我們\n160941\t184426\t從2018年開始去做相關的一個研究那到今年的2月16號矯正署還有研商跟一堆的一個會議裡面我都一一今天要提出諮詢我都給你們給拜讀了那這些年來實務界跟學術界也在討論這樣的一個命題就受刑人你剛入監的時候接見跟發信的次數你受到嚴格的限制那就是處長這個你比較厲害你起來來,來來來\n188592\t189733\t收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分\n214291\t228315\t這個其實都是有討論的一個餘地那我們如果從一系列相關受薪人的大法官解釋跟憲法法庭的判決裡面這個我們可以知道觀念就改變了你從4至第755號訴訟權4至756號通信權到4至812號強制工作這個再再都顯示受薪人的基本權的保障逐漸去受到重視\n241579\t258629\t可是呢當一個社會案件一發生以後啊你們全部專業的觀念全部又扭曲又扭轉了我們受到這個社會的當下的一個氛圍影響太大可是喔司法這個部分\n260282\t269108\t你們不能像我們禮拜年那樣,禮拜年我們寮就瘋了你知道嗎?寮有聲量啊,寮有雙名聽到會爽啊,所以大家每一個人著墨的焦點不同啊。你們的保持冷靜啊,你們的保持冷靜啊,你們那個整個偵查不公開,不定我也把你撬過去了,但是啊,有一些你們都錯了,你們也是冤枉啊。你像譬如說一個案件啊,我也給你講,譬如說有人來跟我們檢記啊,\n289565\t290306\t二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管\n309158\t331388\t這奇怪怎麼偵查全部都揭露啊有時候哪是你們揭露是人家媒體懂得比你們還多啊有時候你們在辦案的方向還媒體跟你們提醒他掌握的資料比你都還要多啊所以到底是有時候很多案件到底是誰去洩漏偵查中的一個秘密啊有時候都很難論斷但確實啊如果一個偵辦中的一個案件啊\n332722\t333583\t五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n352654\t376745\t到了2006年它實質上更改為限制的一個緩和,也就是說分了很多級,那另外還有憂鬱的一個處遇來評斷可不可超過基本生活之外的一個享受,那這個跟台灣差別太大,台灣沒有辦法,我們沒有這樣的一個進步的一個概念。我們也認為這樣子的話,好像獸心人到監獄裡面去是好像過得非常爽。\n377805\t384287\t那所以我想就教的就是說法務部目前到底有沒有研議替代處意這樣的一個方案就教署長\n387009\t389111\t審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n413243\t413684\t稅務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分\n431287\t432748\t審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n456156\t481282\t改為考察制也叫審慎要讓公正客觀社會經得起社會的檢視那這個部分... 你看我對他就好我連答案就給他秀在電腦上給你偷看你知道嗎那我的意思就是說其實本席一直認為每一個人成長背景不同像我來自於屏東的鄉下我家我以前出門我家有個小店以前做刑犯都去打酒頭\n486139\t501656\t時代改變了,你說這樣的一個方式還對嗎?過去的強制工作,哪是要讓它復歸社會?以前的強制工作,因為時代的不同,它是在改造你的思想。現在誰敢改造誰的思想?\n504096\t506638\t收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金\n527310\t543241\t我們確實還有精進的地方你說你自營作業的部分我看連施茂林在當法務部長期間你矯正署也去推展了你所謂的一監所一特色比如說你台中女子監獄你就經典巧克力我們屏東監獄也做有名的或頂新醬油金門的頂新養生面確實帶來更高的一個收入那佔總體收容人比例6%也只有6%而已\n552907\t573942\t那間外作業的比例因為你壽星人需要外溢監的一個資格需要配合累進廚藝等級更高的狀況之下你那個人數更少了人數更少了所以本席要請教部長跟署長就是說不管你是委託或者自營或者間外的一個作業你關於作業基金的部分你們到底有改善方案嗎?\n576942\t598047\t報告委員委託的部分我們會配合直訊勞委會勞發署進來開相關的會議因為他們對廠商比較了解盡量朝著對受請人有利的部分來做一些意向還有委託的部分我們會\n600328\t601708\t收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金\n622901\t624122\t收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金\n640111\t640671\t收支部分關於法務部主管\n656277\t674304\t我今天直接問你,就是說矯正署署長很少有機會在國會裡面這麼完整的一個做一個陳述,因為國會裡面也不太管這一些。我接下來進入深水區,就是說在去年在修法的外間條例的時候,本席是一路反對,因為我認為那是一種民粹,那是一種民粹,就是說我們去看看外間的一個改變,\n684209\t692093\t收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金\n711414\t738402\t立法院會有壓力這合理很正常尤其是政府常常必須要去回應社會的一個需求但是呢我想來請教部長跟署長就是說萬一人家一個定位你去把它做一個回想從到去年2023年之前不管是哪一黨哪一個政黨在執政其實它都是進步的\n739102\t742425\t收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金\n765660\t775773\t收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管\n780610\t807275\t跟委員做簡單說明,去年8月份我們新條例實施,大概我們有臨險4次。臨險4次裡面,新條例到外遇監這些受刑人從來沒有發生過在工作中脫逃或是說他緩加探視沒有回來監獄報到。所以我們有兼顧到社會的安全。\n808095\t811577\t收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分\n830810\t835994\t收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管\n854608\t859533\t收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管\n871886\t872686\t三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n897521\t925887\t我告訴部長跟署長我去看到了台中女子監獄的一個外議監的分間我看那個林美玲她在2006年的訪談十位受信人裡面她也去認為說跟外界的溝通管道變多那我去另外2010年的研究裡面對外議監的修建農業發展創新並提供受信人的處遇北中南東外議監我的孟維德我也去拜讀了這是今年最新的\n927047\t946001\t對這一些訪談的人你就都認為啊對於整個復歸社會是具備有成效的啦也就是說怎麼樣讓壽星人重新再回歸到這個社會啊今天我所提出這樣的一個修法我為什麼要做這樣的一個論述我非常一貫我非常一貫我就認為他\n948939\t969527\t我們把立法院在整個消極條件我們去犯罪的類型我們去設定以後這個部分我們沒有去變動你最後的一個臨選裡面還是在你行政部門在你法務部積極條件這個部分確實啊我今天看到各黨提出這樣的一個修法是好好的來值得討論修正的一個必要以上謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席有請我們法務部部長曾部長有請曾部長矯正署署長部長有幾個問題來請教第一個法務部你們跟別的單位比較不太一樣你們要面臨的\n很多在立法院裡面接受國會議員質詢的時候面相會有所不同所以我剛才看你這樣跟黃國昌這樣一句來一句去,那是對的啦\n那不是他告訴你之後你就點注注那有些國會議員在這個地方講每一個人在質詢他有他訴求的一個對象可是站在法務部的一個立場的話你確實是應該把事情給去講清楚但我本席今天要特別來提出這個問題來救教就是說關於受刑人所有權力的一個累進的一個處遇要來請教我們矯正署這個地方到底有沒有研議改善的一個措施\n本席在從進來到立法院這世界裡面我在各個委員會我都盡量去但是來到司法法制這麼無聊的一個委員會裡面我反而會對於很多學者專家提出的一個看法比較有那個機會去做一個研讀那譬如說\n這個整個法制觀念的一個改變整個社會氛圍的一個改變這個廠長一走就是幾十年的路我想從2001年大法官會議528號解釋當初去講強制工作的部分他認為是合憲的\n但是走了20年以後到2021年,施治812號裡面他又認為刑法第90條針對犯罪有犯罪習性的人遊蕩懶惰誠信而犯罪先進去勞動處所強制工作這個部分他提出批判甚至認為說違憲就是說台灣人二十年後他觀念也會去做一個改變\n這個就是整個社會裡面對整個法制大家會來做一個反省那本席想就教兩位的就是說我們司法改革國是會議裡面一直有這樣的一個討論在我們\n從2018年開始去做相關的一個研究那到今年的2月16號矯正署還有研商跟一堆的一個會議裡面我都一一今天要提出諮詢我都給你們給拜讀了那這些年來實務界跟學術界也在討論這樣的一個命題就受刑人你剛入監的時候接見跟發信的次數你受到嚴格的限制那就是處長這個你比較厲害你起來來,來來來\n收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分\n這個其實都是有討論的一個餘地那我們如果從一系列相關受薪人的大法官解釋跟憲法法庭的判決裡面這個我們可以知道觀念就改變了你從4至第755號訴訟權4至756號通信權到4至812號強制工作這個再再都顯示受薪人的基本權的保障逐漸去受到重視\n可是呢當一個社會案件一發生以後啊你們全部專業的觀念全部又扭曲又扭轉了我們受到這個社會的當下的一個氛圍影響太大可是喔司法這個部分\n你們不能像我們禮拜年那樣,禮拜年我們寮就瘋了你知道嗎?寮有聲量啊,寮有雙名聽到會爽啊,所以大家每一個人著墨的焦點不同啊。你們的保持冷靜啊,你們的保持冷靜啊,你們那個整個偵查不公開,不定我也把你撬過去了,但是啊,有一些你們都錯了,你們也是冤枉啊。你像譬如說一個案件啊,我也給你講,譬如說有人來跟我們檢記啊,\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管\n這奇怪怎麼偵查全部都揭露啊有時候哪是你們揭露是人家媒體懂得比你們還多啊有時候你們在辦案的方向還媒體跟你們提醒他掌握的資料比你都還要多啊所以到底是有時候很多案件到底是誰去洩漏偵查中的一個秘密啊有時候都很難論斷但確實啊如果一個偵辦中的一個案件啊\n五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n到了2006年它實質上更改為限制的一個緩和,也就是說分了很多級,那另外還有憂鬱的一個處遇來評斷可不可超過基本生活之外的一個享受,那這個跟台灣差別太大,台灣沒有辦法,我們沒有這樣的一個進步的一個概念。我們也認為這樣子的話,好像獸心人到監獄裡面去是好像過得非常爽。\n那所以我想就教的就是說法務部目前到底有沒有研議替代處意這樣的一個方案就教署長\n審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n稅務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分\n審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n改為考察制也叫審慎要讓公正客觀社會經得起社會的檢視那這個部分... 你看我對他就好我連答案就給他秀在電腦上給你偷看你知道嗎那我的意思就是說其實本席一直認為每一個人成長背景不同像我來自於屏東的鄉下我家我以前出門我家有個小店以前做刑犯都去打酒頭\n時代改變了,你說這樣的一個方式還對嗎?過去的強制工作,哪是要讓它復歸社會?以前的強制工作,因為時代的不同,它是在改造你的思想。現在誰敢改造誰的思想?\n收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金\n我們確實還有精進的地方你說你自營作業的部分我看連施茂林在當法務部長期間你矯正署也去推展了你所謂的一監所一特色比如說你台中女子監獄你就經典巧克力我們屏東監獄也做有名的或頂新醬油金門的頂新養生面確實帶來更高的一個收入那佔總體收容人比例6%也只有6%而已\n那間外作業的比例因為你壽星人需要外溢監的一個資格需要配合累進廚藝等級更高的狀況之下你那個人數更少了人數更少了所以本席要請教部長跟署長就是說不管你是委託或者自營或者間外的一個作業你關於作業基金的部分你們到底有改善方案嗎?\n報告委員委託的部分我們會配合直訊勞委會勞發署進來開相關的會議因為他們對廠商比較了解盡量朝著對受請人有利的部分來做一些意向還有委託的部分我們會\n收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金\n收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金\n收支部分關於法務部主管\n我今天直接問你,就是說矯正署署長很少有機會在國會裡面這麼完整的一個做一個陳述,因為國會裡面也不太管這一些。我接下來進入深水區,就是說在去年在修法的外間條例的時候,本席是一路反對,因為我認為那是一種民粹,那是一種民粹,就是說我們去看看外間的一個改變,\n收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金\n立法院會有壓力這合理很正常尤其是政府常常必須要去回應社會的一個需求但是呢我想來請教部長跟署長就是說萬一人家一個定位你去把它做一個回想從到去年2023年之前不管是哪一黨哪一個政黨在執政其實它都是進步的\n收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金\n收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管\n跟委員做簡單說明,去年8月份我們新條例實施,大概我們有臨險4次。臨險4次裡面,新條例到外遇監這些受刑人從來沒有發生過在工作中脫逃或是說他緩加探視沒有回來監獄報到。所以我們有兼顧到社會的安全。\n收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分\n收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管\n收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n我告訴部長跟署長我去看到了台中女子監獄的一個外議監的分間我看那個林美玲她在2006年的訪談十位受信人裡面她也去認為說跟外界的溝通管道變多那我去另外2010年的研究裡面對外議監的修建農業發展創新並提供受信人的處遇北中南東外議監我的孟維德我也去拜讀了這是今年最新的\n對這一些訪談的人你就都認為啊對於整個復歸社會是具備有成效的啦也就是說怎麼樣讓壽星人重新再回歸到這個社會啊今天我所提出這樣的一個修法我為什麼要做這樣的一個論述我非常一貫我非常一貫我就認為他\n我們把立法院在整個消極條件我們去犯罪的類型我們去設定以後這個部分我們沒有去變動你最後的一個臨選裡面還是在你行政部門在你法務部積極條件這個部分確實啊我今天看到各黨提出這樣的一個修法是好好的來值得討論修正的一個必要以上謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.878 --> 00:19.282\n謝謝主席有請我們法務部部長曾部長有請曾部長矯正署署長部長有幾個問題來請教第一個法務部你們跟別的單位比較不太一樣你們要面臨的\n\n00:35.285 --> 00:43.599\n很多在立法院裡面接受國會議員質詢的時候面相會有所不同所以我剛才看你這樣跟黃國昌這樣一句來一句去,那是對的啦\n\n00:48.274 --> 01:17.777\n那不是他告訴你之後你就點注注那有些國會議員在這個地方講每一個人在質詢他有他訴求的一個對象可是站在法務部的一個立場的話你確實是應該把事情給去講清楚但我本席今天要特別來提出這個問題來救教就是說關於受刑人所有權力的一個累進的一個處遇要來請教我們矯正署這個地方到底有沒有研議改善的一個措施\n\n01:19.175 --> 01:36.541\n本席在從進來到立法院這世界裡面我在各個委員會我都盡量去但是來到司法法制這麼無聊的一個委員會裡面我反而會對於很多學者專家提出的一個看法比較有那個機會去做一個研讀那譬如說\n\n01:39.797 --> 01:57.191\n這個整個法制觀念的一個改變整個社會氛圍的一個改變這個廠長一走就是幾十年的路我想從2001年大法官會議528號解釋當初去講強制工作的部分他認為是合憲的\n\n01:58.012 --> 02:20.185\n但是走了20年以後到2021年,施治812號裡面他又認為刑法第90條針對犯罪有犯罪習性的人遊蕩懶惰誠信而犯罪先進去勞動處所強制工作這個部分他提出批判甚至認為說違憲就是說台灣人二十年後他觀念也會去做一個改變\n\n02:26.608 --> 02:36.914\n這個就是整個社會裡面對整個法制大家會來做一個反省那本席想就教兩位的就是說我們司法改革國是會議裡面一直有這樣的一個討論在我們\n\n02:40.941 --> 03:04.426\n從2018年開始去做相關的一個研究那到今年的2月16號矯正署還有研商跟一堆的一個會議裡面我都一一今天要提出諮詢我都給你們給拜讀了那這些年來實務界跟學術界也在討論這樣的一個命題就受刑人你剛入監的時候接見跟發信的次數你受到嚴格的限制那就是處長這個你比較厲害你起來來,來來來\n\n03:08.592 --> 03:09.733\n收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分\n\n03:34.291 --> 03:48.315\n這個其實都是有討論的一個餘地那我們如果從一系列相關受薪人的大法官解釋跟憲法法庭的判決裡面這個我們可以知道觀念就改變了你從4至第755號訴訟權4至756號通信權到4至812號強制工作這個再再都顯示受薪人的基本權的保障逐漸去受到重視\n\n04:01.579 --> 04:18.629\n可是呢當一個社會案件一發生以後啊你們全部專業的觀念全部又扭曲又扭轉了我們受到這個社會的當下的一個氛圍影響太大可是喔司法這個部分\n\n04:20.282 --> 04:29.108\n你們不能像我們禮拜年那樣,禮拜年我們寮就瘋了你知道嗎?寮有聲量啊,寮有雙名聽到會爽啊,所以大家每一個人著墨的焦點不同啊。你們的保持冷靜啊,你們的保持冷靜啊,你們那個整個偵查不公開,不定我也把你撬過去了,但是啊,有一些你們都錯了,你們也是冤枉啊。你像譬如說一個案件啊,我也給你講,譬如說有人來跟我們檢記啊,\n\n04:49.565 --> 04:50.306\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管\n\n05:09.158 --> 05:31.388\n這奇怪怎麼偵查全部都揭露啊有時候哪是你們揭露是人家媒體懂得比你們還多啊有時候你們在辦案的方向還媒體跟你們提醒他掌握的資料比你都還要多啊所以到底是有時候很多案件到底是誰去洩漏偵查中的一個秘密啊有時候都很難論斷但確實啊如果一個偵辦中的一個案件啊\n\n05:32.722 --> 05:33.583\n五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n\n05:52.654 --> 06:16.745\n到了2006年它實質上更改為限制的一個緩和,也就是說分了很多級,那另外還有憂鬱的一個處遇來評斷可不可超過基本生活之外的一個享受,那這個跟台灣差別太大,台灣沒有辦法,我們沒有這樣的一個進步的一個概念。我們也認為這樣子的話,好像獸心人到監獄裡面去是好像過得非常爽。\n\n06:17.805 --> 06:24.287\n那所以我想就教的就是說法務部目前到底有沒有研議替代處意這樣的一個方案就教署長\n\n06:27.009 --> 06:29.111\n審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n\n06:53.243 --> 06:53.684\n稅務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分\n\n07:11.287 --> 07:12.748\n審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n\n07:36.156 --> 08:01.282\n改為考察制也叫審慎要讓公正客觀社會經得起社會的檢視那這個部分...你看我對他就好我連答案就給他秀在電腦上給你偷看你知道嗎那我的意思就是說其實本席一直認為每一個人成長背景不同像我來自於屏東的鄉下我家我以前出門我家有個小店以前做刑犯都去打酒頭\n\n08:06.139 --> 08:21.656\n時代改變了,你說這樣的一個方式還對嗎?過去的強制工作,哪是要讓它復歸社會?以前的強制工作,因為時代的不同,它是在改造你的思想。現在誰敢改造誰的思想?\n\n08:24.096 --> 08:26.638\n收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金\n\n08:47.310 --> 09:03.241\n我們確實還有精進的地方你說你自營作業的部分我看連施茂林在當法務部長期間你矯正署也去推展了你所謂的一監所一特色比如說你台中女子監獄你就經典巧克力我們屏東監獄也做有名的或頂新醬油金門的頂新養生面確實帶來更高的一個收入那佔總體收容人比例6%也只有6%而已\n\n09:12.907 --> 09:33.942\n那間外作業的比例因為你壽星人需要外溢監的一個資格需要配合累進廚藝等級更高的狀況之下你那個人數更少了人數更少了所以本席要請教部長跟署長就是說不管你是委託或者自營或者間外的一個作業你關於作業基金的部分你們到底有改善方案嗎?\n\n09:36.942 --> 09:58.047\n報告委員委託的部分我們會配合直訊勞委會勞發署進來開相關的會議因為他們對廠商比較了解盡量朝著對受請人有利的部分來做一些意向還有委託的部分我們會\n\n10:00.328 --> 10:01.708\n收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金\n\n10:22.901 --> 10:24.122\n收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金\n\n10:40.111 --> 10:40.671\n收支部分關於法務部主管\n\n10:56.277 --> 11:14.304\n我今天直接問你,就是說矯正署署長很少有機會在國會裡面這麼完整的一個做一個陳述,因為國會裡面也不太管這一些。我接下來進入深水區,就是說在去年在修法的外間條例的時候,本席是一路反對,因為我認為那是一種民粹,那是一種民粹,就是說我們去看看外間的一個改變,\n\n11:24.209 --> 11:32.093\n收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金\n\n11:51.414 --> 12:18.402\n立法院會有壓力這合理很正常尤其是政府常常必須要去回應社會的一個需求但是呢我想來請教部長跟署長就是說萬一人家一個定位你去把它做一個回想從到去年2023年之前不管是哪一黨哪一個政黨在執政其實它都是進步的\n\n12:19.102 --> 12:22.425\n收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金\n\n12:45.660 --> 12:55.773\n收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管\n\n13:00.610 --> 13:27.275\n跟委員做簡單說明,去年8月份我們新條例實施,大概我們有臨險4次。臨險4次裡面,新條例到外遇監這些受刑人從來沒有發生過在工作中脫逃或是說他緩加探視沒有回來監獄報到。所以我們有兼顧到社會的安全。\n\n13:28.095 --> 13:31.577\n收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分\n\n13:50.810 --> 13:55.994\n收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管\n\n14:14.608 --> 14:19.533\n收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管\n\n14:31.886 --> 14:32.686\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算\n\n14:57.521 --> 15:25.887\n我告訴部長跟署長我去看到了台中女子監獄的一個外議監的分間我看那個林美玲她在2006年的訪談十位受信人裡面她也去認為說跟外界的溝通管道變多那我去另外2010年的研究裡面對外議監的修建農業發展創新並提供受信人的處遇北中南東外議監我的孟維德我也去拜讀了這是今年最新的\n\n15:27.047 --> 15:46.001\n對這一些訪談的人你就都認為啊對於整個復歸社會是具備有成效的啦也就是說怎麼樣讓壽星人重新再回歸到這個社會啊今天我所提出這樣的一個修法我為什麼要做這樣的一個論述我非常一貫我非常一貫我就認為他\n\n15:48.939 --> 16:09.527\n我們把立法院在整個消極條件我們去犯罪的類型我們去設定以後這個部分我們沒有去變動你最後的一個臨選裡面還是在你行政部門在你法務部積極條件這個部分確實啊我今天看到各黨提出這樣的一個修法是好好的來值得討論修正的一個必要以上謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.878,"end":19.282,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們法務部部長曾部長有請曾部長矯正署署長部長有幾個問題來請教第一個法務部你們跟別的單位比較不太一樣你們要面臨的"},{"start":35.285,"end":43.599,"text":"很多在立法院裡面接受國會議員質詢的時候面相會有所不同所以我剛才看你這樣跟黃國昌這樣一句來一句去,那是對的啦"},{"start":48.274,"end":77.777,"text":"那不是他告訴你之後你就點注注那有些國會議員在這個地方講每一個人在質詢他有他訴求的一個對象可是站在法務部的一個立場的話你確實是應該把事情給去講清楚但我本席今天要特別來提出這個問題來救教就是說關於受刑人所有權力的一個累進的一個處遇要來請教我們矯正署這個地方到底有沒有研議改善的一個措施"},{"start":79.175,"end":96.541,"text":"本席在從進來到立法院這世界裡面我在各個委員會我都盡量去但是來到司法法制這麼無聊的一個委員會裡面我反而會對於很多學者專家提出的一個看法比較有那個機會去做一個研讀那譬如說"},{"start":99.797,"end":117.191,"text":"這個整個法制觀念的一個改變整個社會氛圍的一個改變這個廠長一走就是幾十年的路我想從2001年大法官會議528號解釋當初去講強制工作的部分他認為是合憲的"},{"start":118.012,"end":140.185,"text":"但是走了20年以後到2021年,施治812號裡面他又認為刑法第90條針對犯罪有犯罪習性的人遊蕩懶惰誠信而犯罪先進去勞動處所強制工作這個部分他提出批判甚至認為說違憲就是說台灣人二十年後他觀念也會去做一個改變"},{"start":146.608,"end":156.914,"text":"這個就是整個社會裡面對整個法制大家會來做一個反省那本席想就教兩位的就是說我們司法改革國是會議裡面一直有這樣的一個討論在我們"},{"start":160.941,"end":184.426,"text":"從2018年開始去做相關的一個研究那到今年的2月16號矯正署還有研商跟一堆的一個會議裡面我都一一今天要提出諮詢我都給你們給拜讀了那這些年來實務界跟學術界也在討論這樣的一個命題就受刑人你剛入監的時候接見跟發信的次數你受到嚴格的限制那就是處長這個你比較厲害你起來來,來來來"},{"start":188.592,"end":189.733,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":214.291,"end":228.315,"text":"這個其實都是有討論的一個餘地那我們如果從一系列相關受薪人的大法官解釋跟憲法法庭的判決裡面這個我們可以知道觀念就改變了你從4至第755號訴訟權4至756號通信權到4至812號強制工作這個再再都顯示受薪人的基本權的保障逐漸去受到重視"},{"start":241.579,"end":258.629,"text":"可是呢當一個社會案件一發生以後啊你們全部專業的觀念全部又扭曲又扭轉了我們受到這個社會的當下的一個氛圍影響太大可是喔司法這個部分"},{"start":260.282,"end":269.108,"text":"你們不能像我們禮拜年那樣,禮拜年我們寮就瘋了你知道嗎?寮有聲量啊,寮有雙名聽到會爽啊,所以大家每一個人著墨的焦點不同啊。你們的保持冷靜啊,你們的保持冷靜啊,你們那個整個偵查不公開,不定我也把你撬過去了,但是啊,有一些你們都錯了,你們也是冤枉啊。你像譬如說一個案件啊,我也給你講,譬如說有人來跟我們檢記啊,"},{"start":289.565,"end":290.306,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":309.158,"end":331.388,"text":"這奇怪怎麼偵查全部都揭露啊有時候哪是你們揭露是人家媒體懂得比你們還多啊有時候你們在辦案的方向還媒體跟你們提醒他掌握的資料比你都還要多啊所以到底是有時候很多案件到底是誰去洩漏偵查中的一個秘密啊有時候都很難論斷但確實啊如果一個偵辦中的一個案件啊"},{"start":332.722,"end":333.583,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":352.654,"end":376.745,"text":"到了2006年它實質上更改為限制的一個緩和,也就是說分了很多級,那另外還有憂鬱的一個處遇來評斷可不可超過基本生活之外的一個享受,那這個跟台灣差別太大,台灣沒有辦法,我們沒有這樣的一個進步的一個概念。我們也認為這樣子的話,好像獸心人到監獄裡面去是好像過得非常爽。"},{"start":377.805,"end":384.287,"text":"那所以我想就教的就是說法務部目前到底有沒有研議替代處意這樣的一個方案就教署長"},{"start":387.009,"end":389.111,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":413.243,"end":413.684,"text":"稅務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分"},{"start":431.287,"end":432.748,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":456.156,"end":481.282,"text":"改為考察制也叫審慎要讓公正客觀社會經得起社會的檢視那這個部分... 你看我對他就好我連答案就給他秀在電腦上給你偷看你知道嗎那我的意思就是說其實本席一直認為每一個人成長背景不同像我來自於屏東的鄉下我家我以前出門我家有個小店以前做刑犯都去打酒頭"},{"start":486.139,"end":501.656,"text":"時代改變了,你說這樣的一個方式還對嗎?過去的強制工作,哪是要讓它復歸社會?以前的強制工作,因為時代的不同,它是在改造你的思想。現在誰敢改造誰的思想?"},{"start":504.096,"end":506.638,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":527.31,"end":543.241,"text":"我們確實還有精進的地方你說你自營作業的部分我看連施茂林在當法務部長期間你矯正署也去推展了你所謂的一監所一特色比如說你台中女子監獄你就經典巧克力我們屏東監獄也做有名的或頂新醬油金門的頂新養生面確實帶來更高的一個收入那佔總體收容人比例6%也只有6%而已"},{"start":552.907,"end":573.942,"text":"那間外作業的比例因為你壽星人需要外溢監的一個資格需要配合累進廚藝等級更高的狀況之下你那個人數更少了人數更少了所以本席要請教部長跟署長就是說不管你是委託或者自營或者間外的一個作業你關於作業基金的部分你們到底有改善方案嗎?"},{"start":576.942,"end":598.047,"text":"報告委員委託的部分我們會配合直訊勞委會勞發署進來開相關的會議因為他們對廠商比較了解盡量朝著對受請人有利的部分來做一些意向還有委託的部分我們會"},{"start":600.328,"end":601.708,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":622.901,"end":624.122,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":640.111,"end":640.671,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":656.277,"end":674.304,"text":"我今天直接問你,就是說矯正署署長很少有機會在國會裡面這麼完整的一個做一個陳述,因為國會裡面也不太管這一些。我接下來進入深水區,就是說在去年在修法的外間條例的時候,本席是一路反對,因為我認為那是一種民粹,那是一種民粹,就是說我們去看看外間的一個改變,"},{"start":684.209,"end":692.093,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":711.414,"end":738.402,"text":"立法院會有壓力這合理很正常尤其是政府常常必須要去回應社會的一個需求但是呢我想來請教部長跟署長就是說萬一人家一個定位你去把它做一個回想從到去年2023年之前不管是哪一黨哪一個政黨在執政其實它都是進步的"},{"start":739.102,"end":742.425,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":765.66,"end":775.773,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":780.61,"end":807.275,"text":"跟委員做簡單說明,去年8月份我們新條例實施,大概我們有臨險4次。臨險4次裡面,新條例到外遇監這些受刑人從來沒有發生過在工作中脫逃或是說他緩加探視沒有回來監獄報到。所以我們有兼顧到社會的安全。"},{"start":808.095,"end":811.577,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分"},{"start":830.81,"end":835.994,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":854.608,"end":859.533,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":871.886,"end":872.686,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":897.521,"end":925.887,"text":"我告訴部長跟署長我去看到了台中女子監獄的一個外議監的分間我看那個林美玲她在2006年的訪談十位受信人裡面她也去認為說跟外界的溝通管道變多那我去另外2010年的研究裡面對外議監的修建農業發展創新並提供受信人的處遇北中南東外議監我的孟維德我也去拜讀了這是今年最新的"},{"start":927.047,"end":946.001,"text":"對這一些訪談的人你就都認為啊對於整個復歸社會是具備有成效的啦也就是說怎麼樣讓壽星人重新再回歸到這個社會啊今天我所提出這樣的一個修法我為什麼要做這樣的一個論述我非常一貫我非常一貫我就認為他"},{"start":948.939,"end":969.527,"text":"我們把立法院在整個消極條件我們去犯罪的類型我們去設定以後這個部分我們沒有去變動你最後的一個臨選裡面還是在你行政部門在你法務部積極條件這個部分確實啊我今天看到各黨提出這樣的一個修法是好好的來值得討論修正的一個必要以上謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1079,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（9時57分）謝謝主席，有請法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：及矯正署署長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長，有幾個問題來請教，第一個，法務部跟別的單位比較不太一樣，你們在立法院裡面接受國會議員質詢的時候，面向會有所不同，所以我剛才看你跟黃國昌這樣一句來、一句去，那是對的！不是他跟你說什麼之後你就靜悄悄，國會議員在這個地方講、每一個人在質詢，他有他訴求的對象，可是站在法務部立場的話，你確實是應該把事情講清楚。但本席今天要特別提出問題來就教，關於受刑人所有權利的累進處遇，請教矯正署，這個地方到底有沒有研議改善的措施？本席從進到立法院這4屆裡面，各個委員會我都儘量去，但是來到司法及法制這麼無聊的委員會裡面，我反而會對於很多學者專家提出的看法比較有機會去做研讀。譬如整個法治觀念的改變、整個社會氛圍的改變，常常一走就是幾十年的路，從2001年大法官會議第528號解釋，當初去講強制工作的部分，它認為是合憲的，但是走了20年以後，到2021年釋字第812號又認為刑法第九十條，針對有犯罪習性的人或因遊蕩、懶惰成性而犯罪，先進去勞動處所強制工作的這個部分，它提出批判，甚至認為違憲。也就是大法官在20年以後，觀念也會去做一個改變，這個就是整個社會裡面對於整個法治，大家會來做一個反省。","本席想就教兩位的是，我們司法改革國是會議裡面一直有這樣的一個討論，從2018年開始去做相關的研究，到今年的2月16號矯正署還有研商的一堆會議裡面，在今天要提出質詢以前，我都一一拜讀了。這些年來實務界跟學術界也在討論這樣的一個命題，受刑人剛入監的時候，接見跟發信次數受到嚴格的限制，那很有趣喔！署長，這個你比較厲害，請署長上來。被抓去關的受到嚴格的限制，可是他寫的信、發信的次數是最多的，反而等他關了好幾年，逐漸取得累進的分數以後，開始可以跟社會有更多接觸的時候，但他跟外界的聯繫變生疏了，這樣的一個作法到底可不可以達到教化跟悔改的目的？這個其實都有討論的餘地。","我們如果從一系列相關受刑人的大法官解釋跟憲法法庭的判決裡面，我們可以知道觀念就改變了，從釋字第755號（訴訟權）、釋字第756號（通信權），到釋字第812號（強制工作），在在都顯示受刑人的基本權保障逐漸被受到重視。可是當一個社會案件發生以後，你們專業的觀念全部又扭曲、又扭轉啊！我們受到社會當下的氛圍影響太大，可是司法這個部分，你們不能像我們在立法院這樣，立法院我們有時候會發瘋，你知道嗎？你要有聲量啊！你要讓選民聽了會爽啊！所以大家每一個人著墨的焦點不同。你們要保持冷靜啊！你們那個偵查不公開，部長，我也罵過你好幾次，但是有一些你們都錯了，你們也是冤枉啊！譬如一個案件有人來檢舉，檢舉之後，我又不是檢察官，我當然把資料轉給你們就好了，偵辦權在你們的手上啊！可是常常一個案件當事人會來向司法機關檢舉，他也會向媒體投訴，所以常常偵查不公開的，就奇怪了，怎麼偵查全部都揭露啦！有時候哪是你們揭露的，是媒體懂得比你們還多啊！有時候你們辦案的方向還是媒體跟你們提醒，掌握的資料比你都還要多啊！所以很多案件到底是誰去洩漏偵查中的秘密啊？有時候都很難論斷，但確實如果一個偵辦中的案件，在偵辦當中好像在大放送，這個也都不宜啦！","我回到本題，我去看看隔壁的日本，他們早在1964年就認為拘禁者處遇具有最低基準的權利，而且他們逐步在廢除累進處遇，到2006年實質上更改為限制緩和，也就是分了很多級，另外還有優遇處遇來評斷可不可以超過基本生活之外的享受，這個跟臺灣差別太大，臺灣沒有辦法，我們沒有這樣一個的進步概念，我們也認為這樣子的話，好像受刑人到監獄裡面是過得非常爽。所以我想就教的是，法務部目前到底有沒有研議替代處遇的方案？就教署長。"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，累進處遇是由嚴而寬，委員提到一個人被收容進監所，剛開始有一些接見或是通訊，這對囚情安定是有幫助的，確實是這樣。我們的累進處遇是在民國31年訂定的，有一些比較不符合現代的潮流，我們現在也在研擬要把累進處遇廢除掉，然後相關可以用的條文部分，在監獄行刑法做一個專章的規定，這個部分我們也委託各大學去做研究，長期是朝廢除累進處遇來做一個計畫。委員提到日本這個部分，我研究過，日本是採取考察制，我們是責任分數制，不一樣，但是日本也有聲音出來，就是考察制是由場舍主管負責，他們的專業程度是不是可以很公正無私的考察？這也是一個聲音，所以我們改為考察制也要審慎，要公正客觀，經得起社會的檢視，這個部分……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你看我對你多好，我連答案都幫你秀在電腦上讓你偷看，你知不知道？我的意思是，其實本席一直認為每一個人的成長背景不同，像我來自於屏東的鄉下，我以前出門，我們那邊有個砂石場，以前重刑犯都去那邊擔石頭，但時代改變了，你說這樣的一個方式還對嗎？過去的強制工作哪是要讓他復歸社會，以前的強制工作，因為時代的不同，他是在改造你的思想，現在誰敢改造誰的思想？尤其從過去威權的統治，社會是不斷地把對思想的禁錮慢慢去做解放，當然這個受刑人不可能享有跟一般社會大眾同樣的待遇，他犯了罪，當然要為他的犯罪行為做一個付出。","可是我們研究了這麼多，我們確實還有精進的地方，你說自營作業的部分，我看連施茂林在當法務部長期間，矯正署也去推展所謂的一監所一特色，比如臺中女子監獄是經典巧克力；而屏東監獄也很有名，是鼎新醬油；金門是鼎金養生麵，確實帶來更高的收入，占總體收容人比例的6%，也只有6%而已。監外作業的比例，因為受刑人需要外役監的資格，需要配合累進處遇等級更高的狀況之下，人數更少了。所以本席要請教部長跟署長，不管是委託或自營，或者監外的作業，關於作業基金的部分，你們到底有沒有改善方案？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，委託的部分，我們會配合勞發署進來開相關的會議，因為他們對廠商比較了解，儘量朝著對受刑人有利的部分來做。還有委託的部分，我們會找優良的廠商，比較有技訓性質的，可以培養一技之長。至於自營作業，我們有矯正商城的改進，可以多元管道的付款還有行銷，這個部分我們都在加強中。最後，自主監外作業，結合企業互利共生這個部分，我們會結合優良的廠商，然後讓受刑人能夠三贏，就是他可以在執刑中有大概八、九千塊的收入，可以把這些錢寄回去給家裡做貼補之用，然後給社會覺得他在這邊不是白關的，對於他的處遇、對於矯正機關有正面的印象。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我今天故意問你的，就是矯正署署長很少有機會在國會裡面做這麼完整的陳述，因為國會裡面也不太管這一些。接下來進入深水區，就是說，去年在修外役監條例的時候，本席是一路反對，因為我認為那是一種民粹，那是一種民粹！我們去看看外役監的改變，剛開始是補充監獄不足的功能，後來慢慢發現它不能只是一種監獄，應該給收容人更多接觸外界的機會，因此慢慢演變成監外作業的模式，讓他們可以早日跟企業一般，雖然不能達到跟上班族相同的程度，但是是把外役監視為一個中間處遇的機構。沒辦法，社會如果發生一個比較重大的案件的話，立法院會有壓力，這合理，很正常，尤其是政府常常必須要去回應社會的需求。但是我請教部長跟署長，外役監這樣的定位，你去回想，2023年之前，不管是哪一個政黨在執政，其實都是進步的，每一個修外役監相關法規的想法裡面，都是越來越寬鬆，因為外役監本質上是監獄，可是服役方式跟一般監獄不同，一般監獄重點是在矯治，外役監更多的是在跟社會的接軌。可是發生一件事之後，大家都說外役監很爽，好像是天堂，好像是特權階級才可以去的，是真的嗎？對消極資格，我們做一個限定，最後的核准權還是在於你們法務部，所以署長，就你們現在去遴選的人，就外役監的狀況，簡單地說明。"],["周署長輝煌：跟委員簡單說明，去年8月份新條例實施，我們遴選四次裡面，依新條例到外役監的這些受刑人，從來沒有發生過在工作中脫逃或是返家探視而沒有回來監獄報到的情況，所以我們有兼顧到社會的安全。但是就像委員所講的，外役監是一個中間處遇制度，是一個受刑人復歸到社會前的一個過渡時期，讓他慢慢接觸社會，不會在出了社會以後，像有的人講的，看到紅綠燈不曉得怎麼走。我相信我們會做相關的事前篩選，以及程序中有一些變化的因子，比如說太太跟他離婚了，或是他至親的親人過世了，我們會暫時讓他不要返家探視，減少社會的不安，維護社會的安全。但是我們還是要強調，這個制度是好的制度，應該要保留，所以希望在他們復歸社會上對受刑人有利跟兼顧社會安全，我們要做一個衡平的拿捏。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，這不是保留的問題，是你怎麼樣去做一個精進的問題。講的好像是沒有保留的話，就回到過去，那嚇死人啦，我幫你講比較快，從2011年到2020年，10年之間，外役監受刑人全部1萬1,245個人，近10年來，返家探視未歸的或者是擅離作業處所的，有39個，一萬多人中只有39個。我這一篇質詢裡面，我告訴部長跟署長，我在看什麼，你知道嗎？我就看到臺中女子監獄一個外役監的分監，林美玲在2006年訪談10位受刑人，他也認為這些人跟外界的溝通管道變多。另外，2010年的研究裡面，對外役監的休閒農業發展與創新，並提供受刑人處遇的改善，北、中、南、東的外役監，我也拜讀了孟維德的研究，這是今年最新的，對這一些人訪談以後，都認為外役監對於他們復歸社會是具備成效的，也就是說，怎麼樣讓受刑人重新再回歸到這個社會。今天我提出這樣的一個修法，我為什麼要做這樣的一個論述？我非常一貫，我非常一貫，我就認為立法院在整個消極條件上針對犯罪的類型去設定以後，這個部分我們沒有去變動，最後的遴選還是在行政部門，還是在法務部。至於積極條件這個部分，我在今天看到各黨提出的修法，確實值得好好討論修正的必要。以上，謝謝。"],["周署長輝煌：謝謝委員"],["主席（翁委員曉玲代）：好，謝謝莊委員。","下一位是沈發惠委員，請沈委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-20","speakers":["吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","陳俊宇","沈發惠","吳思瑤","羅智強","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","林思銘"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140905","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140905_00003","1140905_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於法務部及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「法務部矯正機關作業基金」收支部分；三、\n審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「毒品防制基金」收支\n部分；四、審查法務部函送財團法人臺灣更生保護會、財團法人福建更生保護會及財團法人犯罪\n被害人保護協會114年度預算書案；五、併案審查(一)委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「外役監條例第四\n條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員王世堅等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條及第二十一條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條條文修正草案」案；六、繼續審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於立法院主管收支部分【第一案至第四案僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1140905_00002"}}}