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\"end\": 678.548, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 678.548, \"end\": 678.808, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 678.808, \"end\": 678.948, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"吧\", \"start\": 678.948, \"end\": 678.968, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 679.989, \"end\": 680.009, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 680.009, \"end\": 680.029, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,129 --> 00:00:08,440\n主席,謝謝,有請嘉曉傑董事長跟兆豐金的董董好,請嘉曉傑董事長跟董董事長\n\n2\n00:00:23,127 --> 00:00:40,426\n委員好董事長好董事長您稍微休息一下我先問賈董一下賈董主持人好委員好你知道你現在的這個股東當中伊藤忠有打算要出脫他的持股嗎我知道那你知道未來的動向是如何嗎\n\n3\n00:00:41,472 --> 00:00:57,586\n目前不太確切知道這個東西一直傳聞要撤資因為伊藤忠來所佔的這個股份高達32%他影響到的是未來到底是101呢是屬於關股主導還是屬於這個民股主導那過民轉工\n\n4\n00:01:03,230 --> 00:01:19,082\n總是有一個過程我這裡應該知道這件事情如果今天是民股主導的話或許你將來就不用跑立法院了不是嗎?今天如果假設是關股主導的話您就要常常在這邊出現不是嗎?我沒關係欸不管我要不要跑立法院都可以大空大浪就見慣了\n\n5\n00:01:20,003 --> 00:01:34,015\n但是我覺得比較重要的一點應該是我們臺灣是要讓外資覺得我們是一個自由經濟我們是可以一個自由交易的國家一個健康的金融環境我覺得這個會非常的重要\n\n6\n00:01:37,237 --> 00:01:56,071\n有關於資本市場的事情你不用太過擔心就我知道伊藤忠已經有讓5%給稀鬆臺灣了然後現階段來說的話范工股的話大概掌握大概有幾%你知道嗎51%52%然後另外一部分有一個關鍵的地方是在哪裡呢\n\n7\n00:01:56,371 --> 00:02:16,038\n是在於中間的部分有一個所謂的中聯信託的部分是對中央存保貸款中央存保貸款就看他的股份有沒有持續的出脫他如果一樣持續的出脫來處分他以前的不良資產的一個負擔的話那可能關股的變化就有所影響\n\n8\n00:02:16,578 --> 00:02:17,999\n其實我了解得非常的深入\n\n9\n00:02:34,554 --> 00:02:52,678\n不然我不會在上個禮拜的時候呢我就快閃日本兩天一夜十四個小時快閃所以在整個的細節的掌控上面呢我是為董事長其實快閃日本是去找一團周嗎當然是啊那狀況怎麼樣呢你要說你剛剛都不知道你也跑了一趟日本怎麼會都不知道呢\n\n10\n00:02:53,458 --> 00:02:53,899\n兆豐金服務委員\n\n11\n00:03:09,552 --> 00:03:11,393\n我希望在你任內不是做到臺北101而應該做到臺灣101為什麼\n\n12\n00:03:26,263 --> 00:03:46,299\n因為剛剛來說的話你所對口的對象是在停留在蔣萬安市長的情況你根本忘記的是財政部長的邀請或行政院長的邀請所以說我為什麼一開始跟你講說那關股的比例是什麼這代表它是屬於國家層級不是一個市府層級也就是說它不是一個臺北101它應該是臺灣1101你有沒有認同\n\n13\n00:03:48,280 --> 00:04:05,094\n我認同,我非常認同啊。好,如果說你都認同的話,就符合你在網頁上的slogan,要把整個臺灣帶向全世界,對不對?所以說這種情況底下,如何把臺北101證明變臺灣101,或定位成臺灣101,我認為是賈董你的任務吧?\n\n14\n00:04:09,858 --> 00:04:29,819\n我的任務真的是這樣子,所以我們的跨年煙火呢,我們就是TeamTaiwanChampion,我們就是要把台灣是世界冠軍的這件事情呢,昭告全天下,昭告全世界,是的,謝謝。所以以後呢,就不是台北101,以後就是台灣101,有沒有認同?要改名嗎?不是改名啊,這是通稱啊!\n\n15\n00:04:31,020 --> 00:04:31,860\n兆豐金控及臺北金融大樓股\n\n16\n00:04:52,099 --> 00:05:16,108\n不管是臺北或臺灣當然能夠臺灣是更好不過101是最重要的101當然是最重要沒有101前面都沒有但是臺灣跟臺北定位不一樣董董如果是臺灣的話會更好所以我是最後是說那個董董你就上來了因為你是公股的部分到底接下來101是董事長制跟這個總經理制就你的理解是怎麼樣以你最大的股東來說\n\n17\n00:05:17,369 --> 00:05:40,885\n我覺得我們都是官派的董事長所以基本上就是說我們不是真正掌握股權的董事長所以其實應該還是一個董事長制還是以董事長制為主我自己的定位是說我們是財政部所派過來專業經理人所以至少他是一個執行長所以說1011應該是董事長制對不對你的認知上我覺得所有官派的應該都是這樣子\n\n18\n00:05:42,166 --> 00:05:42,326\n佳董責任\n\n19\n00:05:57,319 --> 00:05:57,720\n我瞭解啊\n\n20\n00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:47,658\n謝謝我們一定會朝這個目標前進那賈董請回我接下來問一下那個請那個阮次跟那個上台一下那請董董留下來一下董董我看這個題目改天再問你我時間才有限你請回好了董董好那個阮次剛剛我覺得必須要回應一下幾個問題必須說為什麼沒有討論的原因是怎麼樣6612版本我們或許知道可是3753的版本你知道嗎不知道\n\n21\n00:06:47,938 --> 00:06:48,138\n不是嗎?是。\n\n22\n00:07:15,831 --> 00:07:33,545\n再加上說所謂的中央啊你的寫法中央會變錢不夠地方錢太多那我就問你啊中央錢不夠的話地方錢太多那他說中央每一年都很有錢我問你我看一個圖表這幾年包括證交稅、中小稅、營業稅跟營所稅是景氣財吧\n\n23\n00:07:37,677 --> 00:07:57,583\n是這幾年景氣比較好對不對對那如果萬一明年景氣比較不好的時候你還有所謂距離剩餘三千億、四千億、五千億嗎還有可能嗎所以這個它是有很大的變動性所以它很大的變動性你也要講嘛我外面就要誤導說每年我們有稅基益率多少我再請一下陳副主委上來一下\n\n24\n00:07:58,584 --> 00:08:23,305\n我外面看到的所謂的景氣的循環從2000年以來陳副主任你知道整個景氣的循環平均大概多少個月大概11...13個月大概41.2個月41.2個月就超過3年你覺得我們股市已經那個多頭已經幾年了3年多了啦\n\n25\n00:08:24,457 --> 00:08:49,522\n所以說依照這個緊述循環齁老實講一定百阿百阿你知道嗎已經北風尾了捏所以我要讓財政部知道在整個政策辯護的過程當中聯同金管會的整個緊述循環你清楚接下來你的預測如果說接下來如果還不是多頭市場的話我們證交稅不能扣到那麼多錢的話還有這麼多稅金因為我請阮次昌來回答一下\n\n26\n00:08:52,372 --> 00:09:02,935\n跟委員報告的確這幾年因為我們的經濟狀況不錯那國內外的景氣也算是平穩那沒有的時候怎麼辦所以這幾年的確證交稅舉債嗎但是我是覺得經濟總是會有循環就像剛才委員提的將來就很難保證說會不會繼續再有這麼好的成績\n\n27\n00:09:16,398 --> 00:09:36,439\n對,所以我是覺得我剛才講的是說稅收只是我們總預算的一部分但是我們在看整個稅收、整個裁員的時候是看總預算跟證明總的問題是說你中央不夠你要不要舉債我問你第一個問題第一個是這個而且另外他還有一個一般補助款他還把你框在那邊對不對又不能動嘛\n\n28\n00:09:39,042 --> 00:09:42,125\n據我了解現在有一些就是單純就是我們中央給他的錢給地方的錢就有一些超過他的稅出對嘛\n\n29\n00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:19,287\n所以我是說我們很擔心說這樣會影響到財政紀律的問題法律上是說不能變動但是執行成效不佳的時候你也不能讓它浪費不是嗎是所以說也沒有說一定要匡列不能比前年一年度少你預算可以編但是執行不一定要執行到嘛\n\n30\n00:10:20,768 --> 00:10:43,230\n這也是我們現在在調度的產生很大的問題你要面對這個問題不能從一般的補助款統籌分配款已經變弄成這樣子了剩下就是計畫型補助所以說還有計畫型補助跟一般補助款的彈性的運用空間有這個可能性那面對這個可能性的話國家財政才有救你剛剛講很好\n\n31\n00:10:44,191 --> 00:10:57,627\n財政收支方法是國家的根本大法不是哪一黨執政都不能這樣亂搞啊你搞到後來就是禍國殃民啊你知道嗎而且一修了以後就很難再動它\n\n32\n00:10:58,848 --> 00:11:18,968\n一修很難帶動他那我就問你嘛如果說他的修法之後至愛難情的時候那財政部有沒有提出修法的可能性這一部分我跟委員報告我們現在是會同這個主席總書在盤點他的影響跟他未來可能的因應措施那這一部分我們會提供給相關的決策單位來做參考做決策所以說不排除再修法是吧\n\n33\n00:11:19,989 --> 00:11:20,029\n主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n129\t8440\t主席,謝謝,有請嘉曉傑董事長跟兆豐金的董董好,請嘉曉傑董事長跟董董事長\n23127\t40426\t委員好 董事長好 董事長您稍微休息一下我先問賈董一下賈董主持人好 委員好你知道你現在的這個股東當中伊藤忠有打算要出脫他的持股嗎我知道那你知道未來的動向是如何嗎\n41472\t57586\t目前不太確切知道這個東西一直傳聞要撤資因為伊藤忠來所佔的這個股份高達32%他影響到的是未來到底是101呢是屬於關股主導還是屬於這個民股主導那過民轉工\n63230\t79082\t總是有一個過程我這裡應該知道這件事情如果今天是民股主導的話或許你將來就不用跑立法院了不是嗎?今天如果假設是關股主導的話您就要常常在這邊出現不是嗎?我沒關係欸不管我要不要跑立法院都可以大空大浪就見慣了\n80003\t94015\t但是我覺得比較重要的一點應該是我們臺灣是要讓外資覺得我們是一個自由經濟我們是可以一個自由交易的國家一個健康的金融環境我覺得這個會非常的重要\n97237\t116071\t有關於資本市場的事情你不用太過擔心就我知道伊藤忠已經有讓5%給稀鬆臺灣了然後現階段來說的話范工股的話大概掌握大概有幾%你知道嗎51%52%然後另外一部分有一個關鍵的地方是在哪裡呢\n116371\t136038\t是在於中間的部分有一個所謂的中聯信託的部分是對中央存保貸款中央存保貸款就看他的股份有沒有持續的出脫他如果一樣持續的出脫來處分他以前的不良資產的一個負擔的話那可能關股的變化就有所影響\n136578\t137999\t其實我了解得非常的深入\n154554\t172678\t不然我不會在上個禮拜的時候呢我就快閃日本兩天一夜十四個小時快閃所以在整個的細節的掌控上面呢我是為董事長其實快閃日本是去找一團周嗎當然是啊那狀況怎麼樣呢你要說你剛剛都不知道你也跑了一趟日本怎麼會都不知道呢\n173458\t173899\t兆豐金服務委員\n189552\t191393\t我希望在你任內不是做到臺北101而應該做到臺灣101為什麼\n206263\t226299\t因為剛剛來說的話你所對口的對象是在停留在蔣萬安市長的情況你根本忘記的是財政部長的邀請或行政院長的邀請所以說我為什麼一開始跟你講說那關股的比例是什麼這代表它是屬於國家層級不是一個市府層級也就是說它不是一個臺北101它應該是臺灣1101你有沒有認同\n228280\t245094\t我認同,我非常認同啊。好,如果說你都認同的話,就符合你在網頁上的slogan,要把整個臺灣帶向全世界,對不對?所以說這種情況底下,如何把臺北101證明變臺灣101,或定位成臺灣101,我認為是賈董你的任務吧?\n249858\t269819\t我的任務真的是這樣子,所以我們的跨年煙火呢,我們就是Team Taiwan Champion,我們就是要把台灣是世界冠軍的這件事情呢,昭告全天下,昭告全世界,是的,謝謝。所以以後呢,就不是台北101,以後就是台灣101,有沒有認同?要改名嗎?不是改名啊,這是通稱啊!\n271020\t271860\t兆豐金控及臺北金融大樓股\n292099\t316108\t不管是臺北或臺灣當然能夠臺灣是更好不過101是最重要的101當然是最重要沒有101前面都沒有但是臺灣跟臺北定位不一樣 董董如果是臺灣的話會更好所以我是最後是說那個董董你就上來了因為你是公股的部分到底接下來101是董事長制跟這個總經理制就你的理解是怎麼樣以你最大的股東來說\n317369\t340885\t我覺得我們都是官派的董事長所以基本上就是說我們不是真正掌握股權的董事長所以其實應該還是一個董事長制還是以董事長制為主我自己的定位是說我們是財政部所派過來專業經理人所以至少他是一個執行長所以說1011應該是董事長制對不對你的認知上我覺得所有官派的應該都是這樣子\n342166\t342326\t佳董責任\n357319\t357720\t我瞭解啊\n378800\t407658\t謝謝我們一定會朝這個目標前進那賈董請回我接下來問一下那個請那個阮次跟那個上台一下那請董董留下來一下董董我看這個題目改天再問你我時間才有限你請回好了董董好那個阮次剛剛我覺得必須要回應一下幾個問題必須說為什麼沒有討論的原因是怎麼樣6612版本我們或許知道可是3753的版本你知道嗎不知道\n407938\t408138\t不是嗎?是。\n435831\t453545\t再加上說所謂的中央啊你的寫法中央會變錢不夠地方錢太多那我就問你啊中央錢不夠的話地方錢太多那他說中央每一年都很有錢我問你我看一個圖表這幾年包括證交稅、中小稅、營業稅跟營所稅是景氣財吧\n457677\t477583\t是這幾年景氣比較好對不對對那如果萬一明年景氣比較不好的時候你還有所謂距離剩餘三千億、四千億、五千億嗎還有可能嗎所以這個它是有很大的變動性所以它很大的變動性你也要講嘛我外面就要誤導說每年我們有稅基益率多少我再請一下陳副主委上來一下\n478584\t503305\t我外面看到的所謂的景氣的循環從2000年以來陳副主任你知道整個景氣的循環平均大概多少個月大概11...13個月大概41.2個月41.2個月就超過3年你覺得我們股市已經那個多頭已經幾年了3年多了啦\n504457\t529522\t所以說依照這個緊述循環齁老實講一定百阿百阿你知道嗎已經北風尾了捏所以我要讓財政部知道在整個政策辯護的過程當中聯同金管會的整個緊述循環你清楚接下來你的預測如果說接下來如果還不是多頭市場的話我們證交稅不能扣到那麼多錢的話還有這麼多稅金因為我請阮次昌來回答一下\n532372\t542935\t跟委員報告的確這幾年因為我們的經濟狀況不錯那國內外的景氣也算是平穩那沒有的時候怎麼辦所以這幾年的確證交稅舉債嗎但是我是覺得經濟總是會有循環就像剛才委員提的將來就很難保證說會不會繼續再有這麼好的成績\n556398\t576439\t對,所以我是覺得我剛才講的是說稅收只是我們總預算的一部分但是我們在看整個稅收、整個裁員的時候是看總預算跟證明總的問題是說你中央不夠你要不要舉債我問你第一個問題第一個是這個而且另外他還有一個一般補助款他還把你框在那邊對不對又不能動嘛\n579042\t582125\t據我了解現在有一些就是單純就是我們中央給他的錢給地方的錢就有一些超過他的稅出對嘛\n601360\t619287\t所以我是說我們很擔心說這樣會影響到財政紀律的問題法律上是說不能變動但是執行成效不佳的時候你也不能讓它浪費不是嗎是所以說也沒有說一定要匡列不能比前年一年度少你預算可以編但是執行不一定要執行到嘛\n620768\t643230\t這也是我們現在在調度的產生很大的問題你要面對這個問題不能從一般的補助款統籌分配款已經變弄成這樣子了剩下就是計畫型補助所以說還有計畫型補助跟一般補助款的彈性的運用空間有這個可能性那面對這個可能性的話國家財政才有救你剛剛講很好\n644191\t657627\t財政收支方法是國家的根本大法不是哪一黨執政都不能這樣亂搞啊你搞到後來就是禍國殃民啊你知道嗎而且一修了以後就很難再動它\n658848\t678968\t一修很難帶動他那我就問你嘛如果說他的修法之後至愛難情的時候那財政部有沒有提出修法的可能性這一部分我跟委員報告我們現在是會同這個主席總書在盤點他的影響跟他未來可能的因應措施那這一部分我們會提供給相關的決策單位來做參考做決策所以說不排除再修法是吧\n679989\t680029\t主席\n","txt":"主席,謝謝,有請嘉曉傑董事長跟兆豐金的董董好,請嘉曉傑董事長跟董董事長\n委員好 董事長好 董事長您稍微休息一下我先問賈董一下賈董主持人好 委員好你知道你現在的這個股東當中伊藤忠有打算要出脫他的持股嗎我知道那你知道未來的動向是如何嗎\n目前不太確切知道這個東西一直傳聞要撤資因為伊藤忠來所佔的這個股份高達32%他影響到的是未來到底是101呢是屬於關股主導還是屬於這個民股主導那過民轉工\n總是有一個過程我這裡應該知道這件事情如果今天是民股主導的話或許你將來就不用跑立法院了不是嗎?今天如果假設是關股主導的話您就要常常在這邊出現不是嗎?我沒關係欸不管我要不要跑立法院都可以大空大浪就見慣了\n但是我覺得比較重要的一點應該是我們臺灣是要讓外資覺得我們是一個自由經濟我們是可以一個自由交易的國家一個健康的金融環境我覺得這個會非常的重要\n有關於資本市場的事情你不用太過擔心就我知道伊藤忠已經有讓5%給稀鬆臺灣了然後現階段來說的話范工股的話大概掌握大概有幾%你知道嗎51%52%然後另外一部分有一個關鍵的地方是在哪裡呢\n是在於中間的部分有一個所謂的中聯信託的部分是對中央存保貸款中央存保貸款就看他的股份有沒有持續的出脫他如果一樣持續的出脫來處分他以前的不良資產的一個負擔的話那可能關股的變化就有所影響\n其實我了解得非常的深入\n不然我不會在上個禮拜的時候呢我就快閃日本兩天一夜十四個小時快閃所以在整個的細節的掌控上面呢我是為董事長其實快閃日本是去找一團周嗎當然是啊那狀況怎麼樣呢你要說你剛剛都不知道你也跑了一趟日本怎麼會都不知道呢\n兆豐金服務委員\n我希望在你任內不是做到臺北101而應該做到臺灣101為什麼\n因為剛剛來說的話你所對口的對象是在停留在蔣萬安市長的情況你根本忘記的是財政部長的邀請或行政院長的邀請所以說我為什麼一開始跟你講說那關股的比例是什麼這代表它是屬於國家層級不是一個市府層級也就是說它不是一個臺北101它應該是臺灣1101你有沒有認同\n我認同,我非常認同啊。好,如果說你都認同的話,就符合你在網頁上的slogan,要把整個臺灣帶向全世界,對不對?所以說這種情況底下,如何把臺北101證明變臺灣101,或定位成臺灣101,我認為是賈董你的任務吧?\n我的任務真的是這樣子,所以我們的跨年煙火呢,我們就是Team Taiwan Champion,我們就是要把台灣是世界冠軍的這件事情呢,昭告全天下,昭告全世界,是的,謝謝。所以以後呢,就不是台北101,以後就是台灣101,有沒有認同?要改名嗎?不是改名啊,這是通稱啊!\n兆豐金控及臺北金融大樓股\n不管是臺北或臺灣當然能夠臺灣是更好不過101是最重要的101當然是最重要沒有101前面都沒有但是臺灣跟臺北定位不一樣 董董如果是臺灣的話會更好所以我是最後是說那個董董你就上來了因為你是公股的部分到底接下來101是董事長制跟這個總經理制就你的理解是怎麼樣以你最大的股東來說\n我覺得我們都是官派的董事長所以基本上就是說我們不是真正掌握股權的董事長所以其實應該還是一個董事長制還是以董事長制為主我自己的定位是說我們是財政部所派過來專業經理人所以至少他是一個執行長所以說1011應該是董事長制對不對你的認知上我覺得所有官派的應該都是這樣子\n佳董責任\n我瞭解啊\n謝謝我們一定會朝這個目標前進那賈董請回我接下來問一下那個請那個阮次跟那個上台一下那請董董留下來一下董董我看這個題目改天再問你我時間才有限你請回好了董董好那個阮次剛剛我覺得必須要回應一下幾個問題必須說為什麼沒有討論的原因是怎麼樣6612版本我們或許知道可是3753的版本你知道嗎不知道\n不是嗎?是。\n再加上說所謂的中央啊你的寫法中央會變錢不夠地方錢太多那我就問你啊中央錢不夠的話地方錢太多那他說中央每一年都很有錢我問你我看一個圖表這幾年包括證交稅、中小稅、營業稅跟營所稅是景氣財吧\n是這幾年景氣比較好對不對對那如果萬一明年景氣比較不好的時候你還有所謂距離剩餘三千億、四千億、五千億嗎還有可能嗎所以這個它是有很大的變動性所以它很大的變動性你也要講嘛我外面就要誤導說每年我們有稅基益率多少我再請一下陳副主委上來一下\n我外面看到的所謂的景氣的循環從2000年以來陳副主任你知道整個景氣的循環平均大概多少個月大概11...13個月大概41.2個月41.2個月就超過3年你覺得我們股市已經那個多頭已經幾年了3年多了啦\n所以說依照這個緊述循環齁老實講一定百阿百阿你知道嗎已經北風尾了捏所以我要讓財政部知道在整個政策辯護的過程當中聯同金管會的整個緊述循環你清楚接下來你的預測如果說接下來如果還不是多頭市場的話我們證交稅不能扣到那麼多錢的話還有這麼多稅金因為我請阮次昌來回答一下\n跟委員報告的確這幾年因為我們的經濟狀況不錯那國內外的景氣也算是平穩那沒有的時候怎麼辦所以這幾年的確證交稅舉債嗎但是我是覺得經濟總是會有循環就像剛才委員提的將來就很難保證說會不會繼續再有這麼好的成績\n對,所以我是覺得我剛才講的是說稅收只是我們總預算的一部分但是我們在看整個稅收、整個裁員的時候是看總預算跟證明總的問題是說你中央不夠你要不要舉債我問你第一個問題第一個是這個而且另外他還有一個一般補助款他還把你框在那邊對不對又不能動嘛\n據我了解現在有一些就是單純就是我們中央給他的錢給地方的錢就有一些超過他的稅出對嘛\n所以我是說我們很擔心說這樣會影響到財政紀律的問題法律上是說不能變動但是執行成效不佳的時候你也不能讓它浪費不是嗎是所以說也沒有說一定要匡列不能比前年一年度少你預算可以編但是執行不一定要執行到嘛\n這也是我們現在在調度的產生很大的問題你要面對這個問題不能從一般的補助款統籌分配款已經變弄成這樣子了剩下就是計畫型補助所以說還有計畫型補助跟一般補助款的彈性的運用空間有這個可能性那面對這個可能性的話國家財政才有救你剛剛講很好\n財政收支方法是國家的根本大法不是哪一黨執政都不能這樣亂搞啊你搞到後來就是禍國殃民啊你知道嗎而且一修了以後就很難再動它\n一修很難帶動他那我就問你嘛如果說他的修法之後至愛難情的時候那財政部有沒有提出修法的可能性這一部分我跟委員報告我們現在是會同這個主席總書在盤點他的影響跟他未來可能的因應措施那這一部分我們會提供給相關的決策單位來做參考做決策所以說不排除再修法是吧\n主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.129 --> 00:08.440\n主席,謝謝,有請嘉曉傑董事長跟兆豐金的董董好,請嘉曉傑董事長跟董董事長\n\n00:23.127 --> 00:40.426\n委員好董事長好董事長您稍微休息一下我先問賈董一下賈董主持人好委員好你知道你現在的這個股東當中伊藤忠有打算要出脫他的持股嗎我知道那你知道未來的動向是如何嗎\n\n00:41.472 --> 00:57.586\n目前不太確切知道這個東西一直傳聞要撤資因為伊藤忠來所佔的這個股份高達32%他影響到的是未來到底是101呢是屬於關股主導還是屬於這個民股主導那過民轉工\n\n01:03.230 --> 01:19.082\n總是有一個過程我這裡應該知道這件事情如果今天是民股主導的話或許你將來就不用跑立法院了不是嗎?今天如果假設是關股主導的話您就要常常在這邊出現不是嗎?我沒關係欸不管我要不要跑立法院都可以大空大浪就見慣了\n\n01:20.003 --> 01:34.015\n但是我覺得比較重要的一點應該是我們臺灣是要讓外資覺得我們是一個自由經濟我們是可以一個自由交易的國家一個健康的金融環境我覺得這個會非常的重要\n\n01:37.237 --> 01:56.071\n有關於資本市場的事情你不用太過擔心就我知道伊藤忠已經有讓5%給稀鬆臺灣了然後現階段來說的話范工股的話大概掌握大概有幾%你知道嗎51%52%然後另外一部分有一個關鍵的地方是在哪裡呢\n\n01:56.371 --> 02:16.038\n是在於中間的部分有一個所謂的中聯信託的部分是對中央存保貸款中央存保貸款就看他的股份有沒有持續的出脫他如果一樣持續的出脫來處分他以前的不良資產的一個負擔的話那可能關股的變化就有所影響\n\n02:16.578 --> 02:17.999\n其實我了解得非常的深入\n\n02:34.554 --> 02:52.678\n不然我不會在上個禮拜的時候呢我就快閃日本兩天一夜十四個小時快閃所以在整個的細節的掌控上面呢我是為董事長其實快閃日本是去找一團周嗎當然是啊那狀況怎麼樣呢你要說你剛剛都不知道你也跑了一趟日本怎麼會都不知道呢\n\n02:53.458 --> 02:53.899\n兆豐金服務委員\n\n03:09.552 --> 03:11.393\n我希望在你任內不是做到臺北101而應該做到臺灣101為什麼\n\n03:26.263 --> 03:46.299\n因為剛剛來說的話你所對口的對象是在停留在蔣萬安市長的情況你根本忘記的是財政部長的邀請或行政院長的邀請所以說我為什麼一開始跟你講說那關股的比例是什麼這代表它是屬於國家層級不是一個市府層級也就是說它不是一個臺北101它應該是臺灣1101你有沒有認同\n\n03:48.280 --> 04:05.094\n我認同,我非常認同啊。好,如果說你都認同的話,就符合你在網頁上的slogan,要把整個臺灣帶向全世界,對不對?所以說這種情況底下,如何把臺北101證明變臺灣101,或定位成臺灣101,我認為是賈董你的任務吧?\n\n04:09.858 --> 04:29.819\n我的任務真的是這樣子,所以我們的跨年煙火呢,我們就是TeamTaiwanChampion,我們就是要把台灣是世界冠軍的這件事情呢,昭告全天下,昭告全世界,是的,謝謝。所以以後呢,就不是台北101,以後就是台灣101,有沒有認同?要改名嗎?不是改名啊,這是通稱啊!\n\n04:31.020 --> 04:31.860\n兆豐金控及臺北金融大樓股\n\n04:52.099 --> 05:16.108\n不管是臺北或臺灣當然能夠臺灣是更好不過101是最重要的101當然是最重要沒有101前面都沒有但是臺灣跟臺北定位不一樣董董如果是臺灣的話會更好所以我是最後是說那個董董你就上來了因為你是公股的部分到底接下來101是董事長制跟這個總經理制就你的理解是怎麼樣以你最大的股東來說\n\n05:17.369 --> 05:40.885\n我覺得我們都是官派的董事長所以基本上就是說我們不是真正掌握股權的董事長所以其實應該還是一個董事長制還是以董事長制為主我自己的定位是說我們是財政部所派過來專業經理人所以至少他是一個執行長所以說1011應該是董事長制對不對你的認知上我覺得所有官派的應該都是這樣子\n\n05:42.166 --> 05:42.326\n佳董責任\n\n05:57.319 --> 05:57.720\n我瞭解啊\n\n06:18.800 --> 06:47.658\n謝謝我們一定會朝這個目標前進那賈董請回我接下來問一下那個請那個阮次跟那個上台一下那請董董留下來一下董董我看這個題目改天再問你我時間才有限你請回好了董董好那個阮次剛剛我覺得必須要回應一下幾個問題必須說為什麼沒有討論的原因是怎麼樣6612版本我們或許知道可是3753的版本你知道嗎不知道\n\n06:47.938 --> 06:48.138\n不是嗎?是。\n\n07:15.831 --> 07:33.545\n再加上說所謂的中央啊你的寫法中央會變錢不夠地方錢太多那我就問你啊中央錢不夠的話地方錢太多那他說中央每一年都很有錢我問你我看一個圖表這幾年包括證交稅、中小稅、營業稅跟營所稅是景氣財吧\n\n07:37.677 --> 07:57.583\n是這幾年景氣比較好對不對對那如果萬一明年景氣比較不好的時候你還有所謂距離剩餘三千億、四千億、五千億嗎還有可能嗎所以這個它是有很大的變動性所以它很大的變動性你也要講嘛我外面就要誤導說每年我們有稅基益率多少我再請一下陳副主委上來一下\n\n07:58.584 --> 08:23.305\n我外面看到的所謂的景氣的循環從2000年以來陳副主任你知道整個景氣的循環平均大概多少個月大概11...13個月大概41.2個月41.2個月就超過3年你覺得我們股市已經那個多頭已經幾年了3年多了啦\n\n08:24.457 --> 08:49.522\n所以說依照這個緊述循環齁老實講一定百阿百阿你知道嗎已經北風尾了捏所以我要讓財政部知道在整個政策辯護的過程當中聯同金管會的整個緊述循環你清楚接下來你的預測如果說接下來如果還不是多頭市場的話我們證交稅不能扣到那麼多錢的話還有這麼多稅金因為我請阮次昌來回答一下\n\n08:52.372 --> 09:02.935\n跟委員報告的確這幾年因為我們的經濟狀況不錯那國內外的景氣也算是平穩那沒有的時候怎麼辦所以這幾年的確證交稅舉債嗎但是我是覺得經濟總是會有循環就像剛才委員提的將來就很難保證說會不會繼續再有這麼好的成績\n\n09:16.398 --> 09:36.439\n對,所以我是覺得我剛才講的是說稅收只是我們總預算的一部分但是我們在看整個稅收、整個裁員的時候是看總預算跟證明總的問題是說你中央不夠你要不要舉債我問你第一個問題第一個是這個而且另外他還有一個一般補助款他還把你框在那邊對不對又不能動嘛\n\n09:39.042 --> 09:42.125\n據我了解現在有一些就是單純就是我們中央給他的錢給地方的錢就有一些超過他的稅出對嘛\n\n10:01.360 --> 10:19.287\n所以我是說我們很擔心說這樣會影響到財政紀律的問題法律上是說不能變動但是執行成效不佳的時候你也不能讓它浪費不是嗎是所以說也沒有說一定要匡列不能比前年一年度少你預算可以編但是執行不一定要執行到嘛\n\n10:20.768 --> 10:43.230\n這也是我們現在在調度的產生很大的問題你要面對這個問題不能從一般的補助款統籌分配款已經變弄成這樣子了剩下就是計畫型補助所以說還有計畫型補助跟一般補助款的彈性的運用空間有這個可能性那面對這個可能性的話國家財政才有救你剛剛講很好\n\n10:44.191 --> 10:57.627\n財政收支方法是國家的根本大法不是哪一黨執政都不能這樣亂搞啊你搞到後來就是禍國殃民啊你知道嗎而且一修了以後就很難再動它\n\n10:58.848 --> 11:18.968\n一修很難帶動他那我就問你嘛如果說他的修法之後至愛難情的時候那財政部有沒有提出修法的可能性這一部分我跟委員報告我們現在是會同這個主席總書在盤點他的影響跟他未來可能的因應措施那這一部分我們會提供給相關的決策單位來做參考做決策所以說不排除再修法是吧\n\n11:19.989 --> 11:20.029\n主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.129,"end":8.44,"text":"主席,謝謝,有請嘉曉傑董事長跟兆豐金的董董好,請嘉曉傑董事長跟董董事長"},{"start":23.127,"end":40.426,"text":"委員好 董事長好 董事長您稍微休息一下我先問賈董一下賈董主持人好 委員好你知道你現在的這個股東當中伊藤忠有打算要出脫他的持股嗎我知道那你知道未來的動向是如何嗎"},{"start":41.472,"end":57.586,"text":"目前不太確切知道這個東西一直傳聞要撤資因為伊藤忠來所佔的這個股份高達32%他影響到的是未來到底是101呢是屬於關股主導還是屬於這個民股主導那過民轉工"},{"start":63.23,"end":79.082,"text":"總是有一個過程我這裡應該知道這件事情如果今天是民股主導的話或許你將來就不用跑立法院了不是嗎?今天如果假設是關股主導的話您就要常常在這邊出現不是嗎?我沒關係欸不管我要不要跑立法院都可以大空大浪就見慣了"},{"start":80.003,"end":94.015,"text":"但是我覺得比較重要的一點應該是我們臺灣是要讓外資覺得我們是一個自由經濟我們是可以一個自由交易的國家一個健康的金融環境我覺得這個會非常的重要"},{"start":97.237,"end":116.071,"text":"有關於資本市場的事情你不用太過擔心就我知道伊藤忠已經有讓5%給稀鬆臺灣了然後現階段來說的話范工股的話大概掌握大概有幾%你知道嗎51%52%然後另外一部分有一個關鍵的地方是在哪裡呢"},{"start":116.371,"end":136.038,"text":"是在於中間的部分有一個所謂的中聯信託的部分是對中央存保貸款中央存保貸款就看他的股份有沒有持續的出脫他如果一樣持續的出脫來處分他以前的不良資產的一個負擔的話那可能關股的變化就有所影響"},{"start":136.578,"end":137.999,"text":"其實我了解得非常的深入"},{"start":154.554,"end":172.678,"text":"不然我不會在上個禮拜的時候呢我就快閃日本兩天一夜十四個小時快閃所以在整個的細節的掌控上面呢我是為董事長其實快閃日本是去找一團周嗎當然是啊那狀況怎麼樣呢你要說你剛剛都不知道你也跑了一趟日本怎麼會都不知道呢"},{"start":173.458,"end":173.899,"text":"兆豐金服務委員"},{"start":189.552,"end":191.393,"text":"我希望在你任內不是做到臺北101而應該做到臺灣101為什麼"},{"start":206.263,"end":226.299,"text":"因為剛剛來說的話你所對口的對象是在停留在蔣萬安市長的情況你根本忘記的是財政部長的邀請或行政院長的邀請所以說我為什麼一開始跟你講說那關股的比例是什麼這代表它是屬於國家層級不是一個市府層級也就是說它不是一個臺北101它應該是臺灣1101你有沒有認同"},{"start":228.28,"end":245.094,"text":"我認同,我非常認同啊。好,如果說你都認同的話,就符合你在網頁上的slogan,要把整個臺灣帶向全世界,對不對?所以說這種情況底下,如何把臺北101證明變臺灣101,或定位成臺灣101,我認為是賈董你的任務吧?"},{"start":249.858,"end":269.819,"text":"我的任務真的是這樣子,所以我們的跨年煙火呢,我們就是Team Taiwan Champion,我們就是要把台灣是世界冠軍的這件事情呢,昭告全天下,昭告全世界,是的,謝謝。所以以後呢,就不是台北101,以後就是台灣101,有沒有認同?要改名嗎?不是改名啊,這是通稱啊!"},{"start":271.02,"end":271.86,"text":"兆豐金控及臺北金融大樓股"},{"start":292.099,"end":316.108,"text":"不管是臺北或臺灣當然能夠臺灣是更好不過101是最重要的101當然是最重要沒有101前面都沒有但是臺灣跟臺北定位不一樣 董董如果是臺灣的話會更好所以我是最後是說那個董董你就上來了因為你是公股的部分到底接下來101是董事長制跟這個總經理制就你的理解是怎麼樣以你最大的股東來說"},{"start":317.369,"end":340.885,"text":"我覺得我們都是官派的董事長所以基本上就是說我們不是真正掌握股權的董事長所以其實應該還是一個董事長制還是以董事長制為主我自己的定位是說我們是財政部所派過來專業經理人所以至少他是一個執行長所以說1011應該是董事長制對不對你的認知上我覺得所有官派的應該都是這樣子"},{"start":342.166,"end":342.326,"text":"佳董責任"},{"start":357.319,"end":357.72,"text":"我瞭解啊"},{"start":378.8,"end":407.658,"text":"謝謝我們一定會朝這個目標前進那賈董請回我接下來問一下那個請那個阮次跟那個上台一下那請董董留下來一下董董我看這個題目改天再問你我時間才有限你請回好了董董好那個阮次剛剛我覺得必須要回應一下幾個問題必須說為什麼沒有討論的原因是怎麼樣6612版本我們或許知道可是3753的版本你知道嗎不知道"},{"start":407.938,"end":408.138,"text":"不是嗎?是。"},{"start":435.831,"end":453.545,"text":"再加上說所謂的中央啊你的寫法中央會變錢不夠地方錢太多那我就問你啊中央錢不夠的話地方錢太多那他說中央每一年都很有錢我問你我看一個圖表這幾年包括證交稅、中小稅、營業稅跟營所稅是景氣財吧"},{"start":457.677,"end":477.583,"text":"是這幾年景氣比較好對不對對那如果萬一明年景氣比較不好的時候你還有所謂距離剩餘三千億、四千億、五千億嗎還有可能嗎所以這個它是有很大的變動性所以它很大的變動性你也要講嘛我外面就要誤導說每年我們有稅基益率多少我再請一下陳副主委上來一下"},{"start":478.584,"end":503.305,"text":"我外面看到的所謂的景氣的循環從2000年以來陳副主任你知道整個景氣的循環平均大概多少個月大概11...13個月大概41.2個月41.2個月就超過3年你覺得我們股市已經那個多頭已經幾年了3年多了啦"},{"start":504.457,"end":529.522,"text":"所以說依照這個緊述循環齁老實講一定百阿百阿你知道嗎已經北風尾了捏所以我要讓財政部知道在整個政策辯護的過程當中聯同金管會的整個緊述循環你清楚接下來你的預測如果說接下來如果還不是多頭市場的話我們證交稅不能扣到那麼多錢的話還有這麼多稅金因為我請阮次昌來回答一下"},{"start":532.372,"end":542.935,"text":"跟委員報告的確這幾年因為我們的經濟狀況不錯那國內外的景氣也算是平穩那沒有的時候怎麼辦所以這幾年的確證交稅舉債嗎但是我是覺得經濟總是會有循環就像剛才委員提的將來就很難保證說會不會繼續再有這麼好的成績"},{"start":556.398,"end":576.439,"text":"對,所以我是覺得我剛才講的是說稅收只是我們總預算的一部分但是我們在看整個稅收、整個裁員的時候是看總預算跟證明總的問題是說你中央不夠你要不要舉債我問你第一個問題第一個是這個而且另外他還有一個一般補助款他還把你框在那邊對不對又不能動嘛"},{"start":579.042,"end":582.125,"text":"據我了解現在有一些就是單純就是我們中央給他的錢給地方的錢就有一些超過他的稅出對嘛"},{"start":601.36,"end":619.287,"text":"所以我是說我們很擔心說這樣會影響到財政紀律的問題法律上是說不能變動但是執行成效不佳的時候你也不能讓它浪費不是嗎是所以說也沒有說一定要匡列不能比前年一年度少你預算可以編但是執行不一定要執行到嘛"},{"start":620.768,"end":643.23,"text":"這也是我們現在在調度的產生很大的問題你要面對這個問題不能從一般的補助款統籌分配款已經變弄成這樣子了剩下就是計畫型補助所以說還有計畫型補助跟一般補助款的彈性的運用空間有這個可能性那面對這個可能性的話國家財政才有救你剛剛講很好"},{"start":644.191,"end":657.627,"text":"財政收支方法是國家的根本大法不是哪一黨執政都不能這樣亂搞啊你搞到後來就是禍國殃民啊你知道嗎而且一修了以後就很難再動它"},{"start":658.848,"end":678.968,"text":"一修很難帶動他那我就問你嘛如果說他的修法之後至愛難情的時候那財政部有沒有提出修法的可能性這一部分我跟委員報告我們現在是會同這個主席總書在盤點他的影響跟他未來可能的因應措施那這一部分我們會提供給相關的決策單位來做參考做決策所以說不排除再修法是吧"},{"start":679.989,"end":680.029,"text":"主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":638,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時57分）主席，有請賈永媫董事長和兆豐金的董董。"],["主席：請賈永媫董事長和董董事長。"],["董董事長瑞斌：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：董事長好。董事長，您稍作休息一下，我先問賈董。"],["賈董事長永媫：主席好、委員好。"],["郭委員國文：賈董，你知道你們現在的股東當中伊藤忠有打算要出脫它的持股嗎？"],["賈董事長永媫：我知道。"],["郭委員國文：你知道未來的動向是如何嗎？"],["賈董事長永媫：目前不太確切知道這個動向。"],["郭委員國文：不太確切知道？"],["賈董事長永媫：對。"],["郭委員國文：一直傳聞要撤資，因為伊藤忠所占的股分高達32%，影響到的是未來101到底是屬於官股主導，還是屬於民股主導。民轉公總是有一個過程，我覺得你應該知道這件事情，如果今天是民股主導的話，或許你將來就不用跑立法院了，不是嗎？假設是官股主導的話，你就要常常在這邊出現，不是嗎？"],["賈董事長永媫：我沒關係耶，不管我要不要跑立法院都可以。"],["郭委員國文：大風大浪都見慣了。"],["賈董事長永媫：但是我覺得比較重要的一點應該是臺灣要讓外資覺得我們是一個自由經濟，我們是一個可以自由交易的國家，一個健康的金融環境，我覺得這個非常重要。"],["郭委員國文：這個金管會會去關心，你不用關心這個事情。關於資本市場的事情，你不用太過擔心，就我知道，伊藤忠已經有讓5%給西松台灣了。"],["賈董事長永媫：是，那也是它的子公司。"],["郭委員國文：以現階段來說的話，泛公股大概掌握有幾percent，你知道嗎？"],["賈董事長永媫：51%。"],["郭委員國文：52%。另外，有一個關鍵的地方是在哪裡呢？是在於中間的部分有一個所謂的中聯信託，是屬於貸款的狀況。"],["賈董事長永媫：對，中央存保代管。"],["郭委員國文：中央存保代管就看它的股分有沒有持續出脫，它如果一樣持續出脫處分以前不良資產負擔的話，那可能官股的變化就會有所影響，對不對？所以我覺得作為一個董事長，對於整個股權結構你要有一定程度的把握跟瞭解，目前官股跟民股的占比是7比6，這個其實影響到未來的變動。"],["賈董事長永媫：我可以跟委員報告一下，其實我瞭解得非常深入，不然我不會在上個禮拜就快閃日本兩天一夜、14個小時，所以在整個細節的掌控上面，我身為董事長……"],["郭委員國文：快閃日本是去找伊藤忠嗎？"],["賈董事長永媫：當然是啊！"],["郭委員國文：狀況怎麼樣呢？你剛剛說你都不知道，你跑了一趟日本怎麼會都不知道呢？"],["賈董事長永媫：我知道啊！我剛才一上臺就說我知道這個釋股的訊息，而且所有的細節我都知道。"],["郭委員國文：狀況是怎麼樣？"],["賈董事長永媫：但是這個是不能夠現在講的，我不能夠在……"],["郭委員國文：所以已經有在洽定特定對象的買家就是了，你可以透露到這個程度，對不對？"],["賈董事長永媫：我不能透露到這個程度，是真的啊！"],["郭委員國文：就我知道，那我透露給你聽，它已經有洽定特定的買家，哪一家我都知道。"],["賈董事長永媫：好。"],["郭委員國文：我會關心這個問題，其實是因為這牽扯到整個台北101的定位，但是我希望在你任內不是做到台北101，而應該做到臺灣101。"],["賈董事長永媫：是，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：為什麼？因為就剛剛來說，你所對口的對象還停留在蔣萬安市長的情況，你根本忘記是財政部長的邀請或行政院長的邀請，所以我為什麼一開始就跟你講官股的比例是什麼，這代表它是屬於國家層級，不是一個市府層級，也就是它不是台北101，應該是臺灣101，你有沒有認同？"],["賈董事長永媫：我認同，我非常認同啊！"],["郭委員國文：非常好！如果你都認同的話，就有符合你在網頁上的slogan，要把整個臺灣帶向全世界，對不對？所以這種情況底下如何把台北101正名變臺灣101或定位成臺灣101，我認為是賈董的任務。"],["賈董事長永媫：我的任務真的是這樣子，所以我們的跨年煙火主題就是「Team Taiwan及Champion」，我們就是要把臺灣是世界冠軍這件事情昭告全天下、昭告全世界。"],["郭委員國文：很好！所以以後就不是台北101，以後就是臺灣101，你認不認同？"],["賈董事長永媫：要改名嗎？"],["郭委員國文：不是改名，這是通稱啦！"],["賈董事長永媫：好喔！"],["郭委員國文：過往都是講台北101，它是代表臺灣。"],["賈董事長永媫：可以啊，我們可以看看要不要把Taipei 101改成Taiwan 101，也很棒啊！"],["郭委員國文：這也是為什麼它的股權就代表官股，我問一下董董，我的主張你有沒有認同？你是最大的官股。"],["董董事長瑞斌：不管是台北或臺灣，當然能夠臺灣是更好，不過101是最重要的，就是它的整個營運和形象。"],["郭委員國文：101當然是最重要，沒有101，前面都沒有，但是臺灣和台北的定位不一樣，董董，對不對？"],["董董事長瑞斌：如果是臺灣的話會更好。"],["郭委員國文：最後，董董，你都上來了，因為你是公股的部分，到底接下來101是董事長制或總經理制，就你的理解是怎麼樣，以你最大的股東來說？"],["董董事長瑞斌：我覺得我們都是官派的董事長，所以基本上我們不是真正掌有股權的董事長，其實應該還是董事長制。"],["郭委員國文：還是以董事長制為主？"],["董董事長瑞斌：基本上，我自己的定位是我們是財政部所派過來的專業經理人，所以至少他是一個執行長的概念。"],["郭委員國文：所以在你的認知上101應該是董事長制，對不對？"],["董董事長瑞斌：我覺得所有官派的應該都是這樣子。"],["郭委員國文：都是應該董事長制，所以賈董的責任就很大，賈董，這是董事長制，不是總經理制，你要定位清楚，所以你的位階其實不是一個單純對外行銷的角色而已。"],["賈董事長永媫：我知道，我其實……"],["郭委員國文：你要扛起很大的責任喔！"],["賈董事長永媫：我瞭解啊！"],["郭委員國文：不然我們一直在爭論到底是總經理制，還是董事長制……"],["賈董事長永媫：不然我怎麼會飛到日本去談股權啦！"],["郭委員國文：總經理也在這邊，所以我要讓你知道一下，你的定位是董事長制，而且你是以公益的形象來參與101的董事長，所以你如何讓整個101朝向一個更公益的角度，我對你的期待很高。"],["賈董事長永媫：謝謝，我們一定會朝這個目標前進。"],["郭委員國文：賈董請回。"],["賈董事長永媫：謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：接下來請阮次上臺，請董董留下來。董董，我看這個題目改天再問你好了，我時間有限，你請回好了。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：阮次，我覺得必須要回應一下幾個問題，必須說為什麼沒有討論的原因是怎麼樣，6612的版本我們或許知道，可是3753的版本，你知道嗎？"],["阮次長清華：不知道。"],["郭委員國文：不知道就無從討論，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：是啊！"],["郭委員國文：你的意思是這樣子嘛？"],["阮次長清華：對，我的意思是最後階段，我們在試算第一個版本的時候，第二個版本又出來了。"],["郭委員國文：毫無所悉，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對，我相信……"],["郭委員國文：秘密版本，對不對？傳聞中說有，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：我相信很多委員大概也不知道。"],["郭委員國文：突然突襲的，對不對？這就是現在國民黨很不負責任的地方，完全沒有讓財政單位有心理準備，要做一個整個財政的宏觀調控，不是嗎？"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["郭委員國文：再加上所謂的中央，你的寫法會變成中央錢不夠、地方錢太多，我就要問你，中央錢不夠、地方錢太多，它說中央每一年都很有錢，我問你，我給你看一個圖表，這幾年包括證交稅、綜所稅、營業稅跟營所稅是景氣財，是這幾年景氣比較好，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["郭委員國文：如果萬一明年景氣比較不好的時候，還有歲計賸餘3,000億、4,000億、5,000億嗎？還有可能嗎？"],["阮次長清華：所以這個有很大的變動性。"],["郭委員國文：它有很大的變動性，你也要講嘛！"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["郭委員國文：外面就在那邊誤導說每年我們有歲計盈餘多少……","我再請陳副主委上來一下，外面看到所謂的景氣循環，從2000年以來，陳副主委，你知道整個景氣循環平均大概多少個月？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：大概13個月……"],["郭委員國文：大概41.2個月。"],["陳副主任委員彥良：是。"],["郭委員國文：41.2個月就超過3年啊，你覺得我們股市多頭已經幾年了？也三年多了啦！所以依照景氣循環，老實講已經北風尾了，你知道嗎？已經北風尾了耶，所以我要讓財政部知道，在整個政策辯護的過程當中，連同金管會的整個景氣循環你清楚，如果你預測接下來不是多頭市場，我們證交稅不能課到那麼多錢的話，還有這麼多歲計盈餘……我請阮次上來回答一下。"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，的確這幾年因為我們的經濟狀況不錯，國內外的景氣也算是平穩……"],["郭委員國文：那沒有的時候怎麼辦？"],["阮次長清華：所以這幾年的確證交稅……"],["郭委員國文：要舉債嗎？"],["阮次長清華：但是我覺得經濟總是會有循環，就像剛才委員提的，將來就很難保證會繼續再有這麼好的成績。"],["郭委員國文：對啊！"],["阮次長清華：所以我覺得就像我剛才講的，稅收只是我們總預算的一部分，我們在看整個稅收財源時是看總預算跟特別預算。"],["郭委員國文：對嘛，我的問題是：中央不夠的話，你要不要舉債？我問你的第一個問題是這個；另外，它還有一個一般補助款，它還把你匡列在那邊……"],["阮次長清華：它匡起來……"],["郭委員國文：對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["郭委員國文：又不能動嘛，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["郭委員國文：那你現在只剩下什麼？剩下計畫補助款可以做彈性處理而已嘛，是不是？"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["郭委員國文：依照財政部的評估，一般補助款一定要給它不可嘛，如果它執行不佳呢？它錢太多呢？如果執行不佳，你一定非要給它不可嗎？"],["阮次長清華：據我了解，現在有一些單純是我們中央給地方的錢就超過他們的歲出……"],["郭委員國文：對嘛。"],["阮次長清華：所以我們很擔心這樣會影響到財政紀律的問題。"],["郭委員國文：法律上是說不能變動，但是執行成效不佳的時候，你也不能讓它浪費，不是嗎？"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["郭委員國文：所以也沒有說一定要匡列不能比前年一年度少，預算可以編，但是執行不一定要執行到，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對，這也是我們現在在調度時產生蠻大的問題。"],["郭委員國文：你要去面對這個問題。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["郭委員國文：不論是從一般補助款也好，統籌分配款已經被弄成這樣子了，就剩下計畫型補助，所以還有計畫型補助跟一般補助款的彈性運用空間嘛，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["郭委員國文：有這個可能性嘛，面對這個可能性的話，國家的財政才有救。你剛剛講得很好，財政收支劃分法是國家的根本大法，哪一黨執政都不能這樣亂搞啊！"],["阮次長清華：對，那個目前的……"],["郭委員國文：搞到後來就是禍國殃民啊，你知道嗎？"],["阮次長清華：而且一修了以後就很難再動它。"],["郭委員國文：好，一修之後就很難再動它，那我就問你，如果說修法之後窒礙難行，那財政部有沒有提出修法的可能性？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，我們現在會同主計總處在盤點它的影響跟未來可能的因應措施，這部分我們會提供給相關的決策單位來做參考。"],["郭委員國文：所以不排除再修法，是吧？"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["郭委員國文：你要趕快有一個因應的方式。"],["阮次長清華：對，已經在積極處理。"],["郭委員國文：否則一般民間非常地焦慮，做一個財主部門，一定要面對這個問題。次長，請回，謝謝。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝。"],["主席（顏委員寬恒代）：請賴惠員召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-12","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","王世堅","王鴻薇","陳玉珍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-23"],"gazette_id":"1141101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1141101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投\n資之台北金融大樓股份有限公司2024年營運成效、2025年度經營計畫與展望、暨跨年晚會煙火表\n演規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1141101_00001"}}}