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69.915, \"end\": 69.935, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 74.945, \"end\": 101.34, \"text\": \"大家的想法是說更大的民主常常會想到第一個就是說會不會是動用到憲法的覆決然後公投的方式不曉得秘書長可以再做一個說明是感謝委員給我做一個說明那我想總統發表這樣的言論就是因為這整個過程不是一個在合憲合法程序上大概有部分不同的意見\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 74.945, \"end\": 75.065, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 75.065, \"end\": 75.185, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 75.185, \"end\": 75.265, \"score\": 0.754}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 75.265, \"end\": 75.425, \"score\": 0.648}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 75.425, \"end\": 75.545, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 75.545, \"end\": 76.125, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 76.125, \"end\": 76.285, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 76.285, \"end\": 76.445, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 76.445, \"end\": 76.545, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 76.545, \"end\": 76.746, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 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\"分\", \"start\": 790.258, \"end\": 790.798, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"疫\", \"start\": 790.798, \"end\": 790.918, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 790.918, \"end\": 791.618, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 791.618, \"end\": 791.818, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 791.818, \"end\": 792.118, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 792.118, \"end\": 792.299, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 792.299, \"end\": 792.619, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 792.619, \"end\": 792.739, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 792.739, \"end\": 792.859, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 792.859, \"end\": 792.979, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 792.979, \"end\": 793.199, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"具\", \"start\": 793.199, \"end\": 793.359, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 793.359, \"end\": 793.579, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"手\", \"start\": 793.579, \"end\": 793.779, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"段\", \"start\": 793.779, \"end\": 793.959, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 793.959, \"end\": 794.099, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 794.099, \"end\": 794.119, \"score\": 0.082}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:13,725 --> 00:00:15,786\n謝謝主席。有請我們總統府秘書長。請潘秘書長。\n\n2\n00:00:23,380 --> 00:00:34,671\n委員長好我想在上個禮拜五在立法院這個院會處理的一個選罷法還有裁划法最重要的還有限訴法\n\n3\n00:00:35,615 --> 00:00:51,426\n我看總統賴總統他也有對外來做一個回應有一句話我想我特別有感他提到的就是說我看我就講那個重點好了他說守護憲政制度然後手段是用更大的一個民主是不是請潘秘書長該能夠跟我比較清楚的說\n\n4\n00:00:55,569 --> 00:01:09,935\n老總統在說的說更大的一個民主他的爭議到底是什麼以現在來看的話一般民眾第一個的想法就是說啊你就看到通過你就不同意啊你覺得這不好啊就提出復議嘛這第一項嘛第二項就是視線嘛\n\n5\n00:01:14,945 --> 00:01:41,340\n大家的想法是說更大的民主常常會想到第一個就是說會不會是動用到憲法的覆決然後公投的方式不曉得秘書長可以再做一個說明是感謝委員給我做一個說明那我想總統發表這樣的言論就是因為這整個過程不是一個在合憲合法程序上大概有部分不同的意見\n\n6\n00:01:42,321 --> 00:02:02,223\n那所以我們在合憲合法的情況之下的大前提來進行更民主的方式所謂民主程序的方式比如說這個行政院的附屬權與否事憲與否或是這個公佈與否那這些都必須在合法的前提之下\n\n7\n00:02:02,924 --> 00:02:16,013\n那甚至呢現在沒剛剛早上又有委員提到什麼要用公投與否這些都是外界的揣測那我想更大的民主更是未來累積更大的能量來下一次能讓國會的改選能夠讓大家有更\n\n8\n00:02:19,435 --> 00:02:47,920\n更大的席次來讓整個國會的生態來改變這些也都是選項之一包括公告、附屬與否、制限與否這些都是民主程序更大的民主程序之一那未來我們都會再用這樣的方式在合憲合法的前提之下跟委員來做報告這樣說就更清楚了但是既然是用守護憲政的制度的話他的手段\n\n9\n00:02:48,880 --> 00:03:13,180\n我相信就可能就比較不是採取去讓外界認為是違背憲政制度的一個方式了你像比如說我們在憲法37條裡面規定行政院長他你說他沒有去附屬的話這個法律沒有辦法去做一個公佈那或者說總統按照憲法第72條立法院法律通過以後就移送總統跟行政院那總統應該在10天內來公佈那總統也可以選擇不公佈的方式\n\n10\n00:03:17,981 --> 00:03:23,866\n我再次追問就是說不附屬或者說不公布這兩個方式應該不會是選項吧\n\n11\n00:03:25,194 --> 00:03:47,491\n我想不公布不會是選項因為這個總統是憲法的職權賦予的憲法所負責所以會按如現來公布那至於公布之前是否行政院有賦予與否或是有附屬與否那這些我們必須尊重行政院那所以總統會如期來公布但是公布前必須我們說到這個文字後\n\n12\n00:03:49,232 --> 00:04:05,026\n那整個是否在行政院或立法院黨團是否有提事宪或是有所謂的各種行政救濟手段與否這個我不知道但總統會如期公佈總統如期公佈這當然都是合憲但是啊剛剛秘書長提到說行政院長到底會不會附屬就沒有講得很清楚啦我本席倒是總統有要求會\n\n13\n00:04:15,996 --> 00:04:32,826\n本席倒是認為,你像譬如說在修憲之前行政院長的附屬權即使他的目的是在制衡續約元首總統的存在而不是阻礙國會立法的一個機制所以我倒認為說行政院長到最後他也不得不附屬\n\n14\n00:04:37,742 --> 00:04:53,019\n剛剛國民黨的委員其實這陣子也一直在強調說啊整個憲法法庭這大法官不尊重民意我每一次聽到這句話的時候我都聽到我們比較藍白的孩子在說的我聽到的被悔的是憲法法庭的大法官\n\n15\n00:04:53,559 --> 00:05:12,526\n他其實在內心他在意的倒不是什麽民意不民意國民黨或者藍跟白他一直認為說大法官沒有民意基礎啊為什麽這15個人可以操縱生死啊可以把整個立法院這麽大的民意通過的法律就把它解釋成到最後是違憲大法官三個職權\n\n16\n00:05:19,718 --> 00:05:40,842\n1解釋憲法2統一解釋法律跟命令3哪怕位高權重具備中華民國最高民意基礎的總統跟副總統他都可以彈劾啊所以大法官哪有什麼民意基礎不民意基礎的一個問題啊大法官其實他是基於整個司法獨立他依法審判就這麼簡單就這麼簡單\n\n17\n00:05:46,243 --> 00:05:59,057\n你像比如說我們這個行政部門送過來的那總統府算也是最高的一個憲政機關之一除了五院包括總統府那立法院哪怕是把這些總預算全部都退回了\n\n18\n00:06:00,449 --> 00:06:16,225\n按照我們整個預算法54條的規定除了你的新興資本支出還有這個新增的一個計劃你如果是你說全部我都把你退回掉那像上個年度以貨售權的或者上年度的執行\n\n19\n00:06:17,767 --> 00:06:30,143\n實行數都可以按照那個數目去做一個凍資這個核心價值就在談一個就是說任何憲政機關都是基於對國家負有忠誠的一個義務問題來了\n\n20\n00:06:32,938 --> 00:06:41,183\n立法院去把整個憲法法庭該如何去做整個案件的一個審理你門檻把它拉這麼高這很明顯就是立法權去要把整個司法權把它給架空你要癱瘓整個憲法法庭\n\n21\n00:06:50,389 --> 00:07:09,838\n這被迫讓我們的司法機關啊他沒有辦法來對這個國家復起一個忠誠的義務什麼忠誠義務人民的訴訟權啊所以本席到這樣建議我們潘秘書長可以好好的去思考一下在整個執政團隊裡面可以做一個思考你說我在我們現在啊現在系屬在\n\n22\n00:07:13,735 --> 00:07:36,497\n我們憲法法庭的案件裡面138件138件中有120件是屬於人民的申請案件本席認為申請者是非常適合用本次修正的條文來作為暫時的一個處分這第一個我們的現在的老百姓就有辦法做到那另外就是說你人民的\n\n23\n00:07:37,796 --> 00:08:04,514\n人民的訴訟權因為立法院你像比如說系署在這整個憲法法庭裡面的這120件是屬於我老百姓的讓我老百姓因為你立法院把我把憲法法庭的整個審議的門檻把它提高了以後當中我的案件沒有辦法獲得憲法法庭來10個大法官的一個評議我這做老百姓我們就回家抱著棉被哭所以憲法法庭其實\n\n24\n00:08:05,535 --> 00:08:24,264\n本席的見解是說不帶申請根本就不用總統府申請根本就不用立法院申請也不用行政院申請大法官本來他就是整個憲法的守護神在這120件裡面本來就可以程序先行我為什麼這樣講就是說從過去從過去如果說我們看待過去\n\n25\n00:08:32,172 --> 00:08:47,934\n在大法官在大審法時代他透過自己的解釋程序法來替各級的法院去開啟申請釋憲的門本來在我們大審法第5條申請憲法解釋只有4款中央政府人民\n\n26\n00:08:48,775 --> 00:09:05,615\n立法院、最高法院及刑事法院並沒有各級法院可是呢大法官就告訴我一、你們各級法院的法官碰到你這個審理案件的時候法律到底是不是有違背憲法你可以裁定停止來向我申請\n\n27\n00:09:06,596 --> 00:09:27,555\n大審法也沒有這樣的規定啊大法官就主動出擊啊所以呢這個案件在本席看來根本都不需要釋憲釋憲當然是一個方式啊所以反而是啊透過這樣的一個諮詢台啊我向我們的憲法法庭的大法官來做一個呼籲啊在細數憲法法庭的這120件裡面啊本來就是程序先行啊\n\n28\n00:09:28,496 --> 00:09:31,917\n你大法官總不能講說,哎,阿沒辦法,你幫人家邀請我,大法官都審法門檻把我審議案件的門檻把我提高以後讓我動彈不得,現在只剩下8位,阿我評議就要10位,所以你們這120件回去回去都不要來那這樣大法官就失去他憲法保護神對國家忠誠的一個義務啊所以呢\n\n29\n00:09:53,069 --> 00:10:19,960\n我來看看在200在2004年4至572號裡面他也講得很清楚啊甚至於4至590號講得很清楚啊法官在審理各該案件包含非送數件非送事件的時候都可以裁定先停止過去在大審法裡面哪有這個規定沒有啊所以憲法法庭的法官他本來啊他對於法庭審理訴訟法的合憲性啊這樣的一個\n\n30\n00:10:21,801 --> 00:10:28,693\n一個先程序問題啊他應該要先行啊在大法官4-601號裡面啊他認為啊他認為如果說\n\n31\n00:10:35,337 --> 00:10:45,161\n這樣的一個提高門檻或者任何去阻礙到整個憲法明文規定的釋憲制度會變成形同大法官對行使憲法上職權的一個拒絕那這個就違背了法治國家分權的一個基本的憲政秩序所以藉這個機會也請潘秘書長在整個執政團隊裡面也可以去做一個思考\n\n32\n00:11:00,788 --> 00:11:28,293\n因為現在在憲法法庭裡面就有120件這120件裡面人民對憲法法庭本來就是在憲法老百姓擁有的一個訴訟權裡面我對憲法法庭有所期待那怎麼會因為立法院因為藍白連鎖多數把整個憲法法庭的一個審判案件的一個程序門檻把它拉高以後讓系屬在憲法法庭這件案件都無從審理這是不對的所以\n\n33\n00:11:29,133 --> 00:11:38,421\n我們也期許憲法法庭的大法官在整個程序先行部分在這120件裡面可以先去像以往一樣做出突破這個才是大法官身為一個憲法的一個守護神然後去守護人民訴訟權他該做的他應該有那個勇氣去做一個突破也讓秘書長做一個參考\n\n34\n00:11:53,454 --> 00:12:19,014\n現在也有一部分的目前的有憲法學者是有這樣的論述跟委員的論述是一樣的這個假油啦我是覺得這個不去就說立法院是什麼的這個要求大法官要尊重民意什麼的大法官的概念裡面沒有什麼叫做尊重民意的只要是人啊只要是有受過民主法治的洗禮心目中當然會有民意嘛但重點就是說\n\n35\n00:12:23,057 --> 00:12:42,075\n憲法法庭的大法官他本來就是會去回應國民的法律感情可是當他在獨立依法獨立在做出審判的時候他心目中想的是他整個司法的一個獨立然後到底有沒有辦法維護整個憲政秩序的一個運行所以\n\n36\n00:12:43,276 --> 00:13:05,915\n這要是有改啦?要是有改啦?有,有,會啦,會朝這個方向來努力第一個總統如期公佈那因為我剛剛講行政是因為我不能代表行政會發言在整個憲政設計上他是應該附屬要不然會打臉總統那這個都是會造成憲政危機那只是說我講的比較保守那這個目前是這樣的方式那至於未來要釋憲與否\n\n37\n00:13:09,897 --> 00:13:14,119\n這個暫停處分、疫後事件等等這些都是工具跟手段。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n13725\t15786\t謝謝主席。有請我們總統府秘書長。請潘秘書長。\n23380\t34671\t委員長好我想在上個禮拜五在立法院這個院會處理的一個選罷法還有裁划法最重要的還有限訴法\n35615\t51426\t我看總統賴總統他也有對外來做一個回應有一句話我想我特別有感他提到的就是說我看我就講那個重點好了他說守護憲政制度然後手段是用更大的一個民主是不是請潘秘書長該能夠跟我比較清楚的說\n55569\t69935\t老總統在說的說更大的一個民主他的爭議到底是什麼以現在來看的話一般民眾第一個的想法就是說啊你就看到通過你就不同意啊你覺得這不好啊就提出復議嘛這第一項嘛第二項就是視線嘛\n74945\t101340\t大家的想法是說更大的民主常常會想到第一個就是說會不會是動用到憲法的覆決然後公投的方式不曉得秘書長可以再做一個說明是感謝委員給我做一個說明那我想總統發表這樣的言論就是因為這整個過程不是一個在合憲合法程序上大概有部分不同的意見\n102321\t122223\t那所以我們在合憲合法的情況之下的大前提來進行更民主的方式所謂民主程序的方式比如說這個行政院的附屬權與否事憲與否或是這個公佈與否那這些都必須在合法的前提之下\n122924\t136013\t那甚至呢現在沒剛剛早上又有委員提到什麼要用公投與否這些都是外界的揣測那我想更大的民主更是未來累積更大的能量來下一次能讓國會的改選能夠讓大家有更\n139435\t167920\t更大的席次來讓整個國會的生態來改變這些也都是選項之一包括公告、附屬與否、制限與否這些都是民主程序更大的民主程序之一那未來我們都會再用這樣的方式在合憲合法的前提之下跟委員來做報告這樣說就更清楚了但是既然是用守護憲政的制度的話他的手段\n168880\t193180\t我相信就可能就比較不是採取去讓外界認為是違背憲政制度的一個方式了你像比如說我們在憲法37條裡面規定行政院長他你說他沒有去附屬的話這個法律沒有辦法去做一個公佈那或者說總統按照憲法第72條立法院法律通過以後就移送總統跟行政院那總統應該在10天內來公佈那總統也可以選擇不公佈的方式\n197981\t203866\t我再次追問就是說不附屬或者說不公布這兩個方式應該不會是選項吧\n205194\t227491\t我想不公布不會是選項因為這個總統是憲法的職權賦予的憲法所負責所以會按如現來公布那至於公布之前是否行政院有賦予與否或是有附屬與否那這些我們必須尊重行政院那所以總統會如期來公布但是公布前必須我們說到這個文字後\n229232\t245026\t那整個是否在行政院或立法院黨團是否有提事宪或是有所謂的各種行政救濟手段與否這個我不知道但總統會如期公佈總統如期公佈這當然都是合憲但是啊剛剛秘書長提到說行政院長到底會不會附屬就沒有講得很清楚啦我本席倒是總統有要求會\n255996\t272826\t本席倒是認為,你像譬如說在修憲之前行政院長的附屬權即使他的目的是在制衡續約元首總統的存在而不是阻礙國會立法的一個機制所以我倒認為說行政院長到最後他也不得不附屬\n277742\t293019\t剛剛國民黨的委員其實這陣子也一直在強調說啊整個憲法法庭這大法官不尊重民意我每一次聽到這句話的時候我都聽到我們比較藍白的孩子在說的我聽到的被悔的是憲法法庭的大法官\n293559\t312526\t他其實在內心他在意的倒不是什麽民意不民意國民黨或者藍跟白他一直認為說大法官沒有民意基礎啊為什麽這15個人可以操縱生死啊可以把整個立法院這麽大的民意通過的法律就把它解釋成到最後是違憲大法官三個職權\n319718\t340842\t1解釋憲法2統一解釋法律跟命令3哪怕位高權重具備中華民國最高民意基礎的總統跟副總統他都可以彈劾啊所以大法官哪有什麼民意基礎不民意基礎的一個問題啊大法官其實他是基於整個司法獨立他依法審判就這麼簡單就這麼簡單\n346243\t359057\t你像比如說我們這個行政部門送過來的那總統府算也是最高的一個憲政機關之一除了五院包括總統府那立法院哪怕是把這些總預算全部都退回了\n360449\t376225\t按照我們整個預算法54條的規定除了你的新興資本支出還有這個新增的一個計劃你如果是你說全部我都把你退回掉那像上個年度以貨售權的或者上年度的執行\n377767\t390143\t實行數都可以按照那個數目去做一個凍資這個核心價值就在談一個就是說任何憲政機關都是基於對國家負有忠誠的一個義務問題來了\n392938\t401183\t立法院去把整個憲法法庭該如何去做整個案件的一個審理你門檻把它拉這麼高這很明顯就是立法權去要把整個司法權把它給架空你要癱瘓整個憲法法庭\n410389\t429838\t這被迫讓我們的司法機關啊他沒有辦法來對這個國家復起一個忠誠的義務什麼忠誠義務人民的訴訟權啊所以本席到這樣建議我們潘秘書長可以好好的去思考一下在整個執政團隊裡面可以做一個思考你說我在我們現在啊現在系屬在\n433735\t456497\t我們憲法法庭的案件裡面138件138件中有120件是屬於人民的申請案件本席認為申請者是非常適合用本次修正的條文來作為暫時的一個處分這第一個我們的現在的老百姓就有辦法做到那另外就是說你人民的\n457796\t484514\t人民的訴訟權因為立法院你像比如說系署在這整個憲法法庭裡面的這120件是屬於我老百姓的讓我老百姓因為你立法院把我把憲法法庭的整個審議的門檻把它提高了以後當中我的案件沒有辦法獲得憲法法庭來10個大法官的一個評議我這做老百姓我們就回家抱著棉被哭所以憲法法庭其實\n485535\t504264\t本席的見解是說不帶申請根本就不用總統府申請根本就不用立法院申請也不用行政院申請大法官本來他就是整個憲法的守護神在這120件裡面本來就可以程序先行我為什麼這樣講就是說從過去從過去如果說我們看待過去\n512172\t527934\t在大法官在大審法時代他透過自己的解釋程序法來替各級的法院去開啟申請釋憲的門本來在我們大審法第5條申請憲法解釋只有4款中央政府人民\n528775\t545615\t立法院、最高法院及刑事法院並沒有各級法院可是呢大法官就告訴我一、你們各級法院的法官碰到你這個審理案件的時候法律到底是不是有違背憲法你可以裁定停止來向我申請\n546596\t567555\t大審法也沒有這樣的規定啊大法官就主動出擊啊所以呢這個案件在本席看來根本都不需要釋憲釋憲當然是一個方式啊所以反而是啊透過這樣的一個諮詢台啊我向我們的憲法法庭的大法官來做一個呼籲啊在細數憲法法庭的這120件裡面啊本來就是程序先行啊\n568496\t571917\t你大法官總不能講說,哎,阿沒辦法,你幫人家邀請我,大法官都審法門檻把我審議案件的門檻把我提高以後讓我動彈不得,現在只剩下8位,阿我評議就要10位,所以你們這120件回去回去都不要來那這樣大法官就失去他憲法保護神對國家忠誠的一個義務啊所以呢\n593069\t619960\t我來看看在200在2004年4至572號裡面他也講得很清楚啊甚至於4至590號講得很清楚啊法官在審理各該案件包含非送數件非送事件的時候都可以裁定先停止過去在大審法裡面哪有這個規定沒有啊所以憲法法庭的法官他本來啊他對於法庭審理訴訟法的合憲性啊這樣的一個\n621801\t628693\t一個先程序問題啊他應該要先行啊在大法官4-601號裡面啊他認為啊他認為如果說\n635337\t645161\t這樣的一個提高門檻或者任何去阻礙到整個憲法明文規定的釋憲制度會變成形同大法官對行使憲法上職權的一個拒絕那這個就違背了法治國家分權的一個基本的憲政秩序所以藉這個機會也請潘秘書長在整個執政團隊裡面也可以去做一個思考\n660788\t688293\t因為現在在憲法法庭裡面就有120件這120件裡面人民對憲法法庭本來就是在憲法老百姓擁有的一個訴訟權裡面我對憲法法庭有所期待那怎麼會因為立法院因為藍白連鎖多數把整個憲法法庭的一個審判案件的一個程序門檻把它拉高以後讓系屬在憲法法庭這件案件都無從審理這是不對的所以\n689133\t698421\t我們也期許憲法法庭的大法官在整個程序先行部分在這120件裡面可以先去像以往一樣做出突破這個才是大法官身為一個憲法的一個守護神然後去守護人民訴訟權他該做的他應該有那個勇氣去做一個突破也讓秘書長做一個參考\n713454\t739014\t現在也有一部分的目前的有憲法學者是有這樣的論述跟委員的論述是一樣的這個假油啦我是覺得這個不去就說立法院是什麼的這個要求大法官要尊重民意什麼的大法官的概念裡面沒有什麼叫做尊重民意的只要是人啊只要是有受過民主法治的洗禮心目中當然會有民意嘛但重點就是說\n743057\t762075\t憲法法庭的大法官他本來就是會去回應國民的法律感情可是當他在獨立依法獨立在做出審判的時候他心目中想的是他整個司法的一個獨立然後到底有沒有辦法維護整個憲政秩序的一個運行所以\n763276\t785915\t這要是有改啦?要是有改啦?有,有,會啦,會朝這個方向來努力第一個總統如期公佈那因為我剛剛講行政是因為我不能代表行政會發言在整個憲政設計上他是應該附屬要不然會打臉總統那這個都是會造成憲政危機那只是說我講的比較保守那這個目前是這樣的方式那至於未來要釋憲與否\n789897\t794119\t這個暫停處分、疫後事件等等這些都是工具跟手段。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。\n","txt":"謝謝主席。有請我們總統府秘書長。請潘秘書長。\n委員長好我想在上個禮拜五在立法院這個院會處理的一個選罷法還有裁划法最重要的還有限訴法\n我看總統賴總統他也有對外來做一個回應有一句話我想我特別有感他提到的就是說我看我就講那個重點好了他說守護憲政制度然後手段是用更大的一個民主是不是請潘秘書長該能夠跟我比較清楚的說\n老總統在說的說更大的一個民主他的爭議到底是什麼以現在來看的話一般民眾第一個的想法就是說啊你就看到通過你就不同意啊你覺得這不好啊就提出復議嘛這第一項嘛第二項就是視線嘛\n大家的想法是說更大的民主常常會想到第一個就是說會不會是動用到憲法的覆決然後公投的方式不曉得秘書長可以再做一個說明是感謝委員給我做一個說明那我想總統發表這樣的言論就是因為這整個過程不是一個在合憲合法程序上大概有部分不同的意見\n那所以我們在合憲合法的情況之下的大前提來進行更民主的方式所謂民主程序的方式比如說這個行政院的附屬權與否事憲與否或是這個公佈與否那這些都必須在合法的前提之下\n那甚至呢現在沒剛剛早上又有委員提到什麼要用公投與否這些都是外界的揣測那我想更大的民主更是未來累積更大的能量來下一次能讓國會的改選能夠讓大家有更\n更大的席次來讓整個國會的生態來改變這些也都是選項之一包括公告、附屬與否、制限與否這些都是民主程序更大的民主程序之一那未來我們都會再用這樣的方式在合憲合法的前提之下跟委員來做報告這樣說就更清楚了但是既然是用守護憲政的制度的話他的手段\n我相信就可能就比較不是採取去讓外界認為是違背憲政制度的一個方式了你像比如說我們在憲法37條裡面規定行政院長他你說他沒有去附屬的話這個法律沒有辦法去做一個公佈那或者說總統按照憲法第72條立法院法律通過以後就移送總統跟行政院那總統應該在10天內來公佈那總統也可以選擇不公佈的方式\n我再次追問就是說不附屬或者說不公布這兩個方式應該不會是選項吧\n我想不公布不會是選項因為這個總統是憲法的職權賦予的憲法所負責所以會按如現來公布那至於公布之前是否行政院有賦予與否或是有附屬與否那這些我們必須尊重行政院那所以總統會如期來公布但是公布前必須我們說到這個文字後\n那整個是否在行政院或立法院黨團是否有提事宪或是有所謂的各種行政救濟手段與否這個我不知道但總統會如期公佈總統如期公佈這當然都是合憲但是啊剛剛秘書長提到說行政院長到底會不會附屬就沒有講得很清楚啦我本席倒是總統有要求會\n本席倒是認為,你像譬如說在修憲之前行政院長的附屬權即使他的目的是在制衡續約元首總統的存在而不是阻礙國會立法的一個機制所以我倒認為說行政院長到最後他也不得不附屬\n剛剛國民黨的委員其實這陣子也一直在強調說啊整個憲法法庭這大法官不尊重民意我每一次聽到這句話的時候我都聽到我們比較藍白的孩子在說的我聽到的被悔的是憲法法庭的大法官\n他其實在內心他在意的倒不是什麽民意不民意國民黨或者藍跟白他一直認為說大法官沒有民意基礎啊為什麽這15個人可以操縱生死啊可以把整個立法院這麽大的民意通過的法律就把它解釋成到最後是違憲大法官三個職權\n1解釋憲法2統一解釋法律跟命令3哪怕位高權重具備中華民國最高民意基礎的總統跟副總統他都可以彈劾啊所以大法官哪有什麼民意基礎不民意基礎的一個問題啊大法官其實他是基於整個司法獨立他依法審判就這麼簡單就這麼簡單\n你像比如說我們這個行政部門送過來的那總統府算也是最高的一個憲政機關之一除了五院包括總統府那立法院哪怕是把這些總預算全部都退回了\n按照我們整個預算法54條的規定除了你的新興資本支出還有這個新增的一個計劃你如果是你說全部我都把你退回掉那像上個年度以貨售權的或者上年度的執行\n實行數都可以按照那個數目去做一個凍資這個核心價值就在談一個就是說任何憲政機關都是基於對國家負有忠誠的一個義務問題來了\n立法院去把整個憲法法庭該如何去做整個案件的一個審理你門檻把它拉這麼高這很明顯就是立法權去要把整個司法權把它給架空你要癱瘓整個憲法法庭\n這被迫讓我們的司法機關啊他沒有辦法來對這個國家復起一個忠誠的義務什麼忠誠義務人民的訴訟權啊所以本席到這樣建議我們潘秘書長可以好好的去思考一下在整個執政團隊裡面可以做一個思考你說我在我們現在啊現在系屬在\n我們憲法法庭的案件裡面138件138件中有120件是屬於人民的申請案件本席認為申請者是非常適合用本次修正的條文來作為暫時的一個處分這第一個我們的現在的老百姓就有辦法做到那另外就是說你人民的\n人民的訴訟權因為立法院你像比如說系署在這整個憲法法庭裡面的這120件是屬於我老百姓的讓我老百姓因為你立法院把我把憲法法庭的整個審議的門檻把它提高了以後當中我的案件沒有辦法獲得憲法法庭來10個大法官的一個評議我這做老百姓我們就回家抱著棉被哭所以憲法法庭其實\n本席的見解是說不帶申請根本就不用總統府申請根本就不用立法院申請也不用行政院申請大法官本來他就是整個憲法的守護神在這120件裡面本來就可以程序先行我為什麼這樣講就是說從過去從過去如果說我們看待過去\n在大法官在大審法時代他透過自己的解釋程序法來替各級的法院去開啟申請釋憲的門本來在我們大審法第5條申請憲法解釋只有4款中央政府人民\n立法院、最高法院及刑事法院並沒有各級法院可是呢大法官就告訴我一、你們各級法院的法官碰到你這個審理案件的時候法律到底是不是有違背憲法你可以裁定停止來向我申請\n大審法也沒有這樣的規定啊大法官就主動出擊啊所以呢這個案件在本席看來根本都不需要釋憲釋憲當然是一個方式啊所以反而是啊透過這樣的一個諮詢台啊我向我們的憲法法庭的大法官來做一個呼籲啊在細數憲法法庭的這120件裡面啊本來就是程序先行啊\n你大法官總不能講說,哎,阿沒辦法,你幫人家邀請我,大法官都審法門檻把我審議案件的門檻把我提高以後讓我動彈不得,現在只剩下8位,阿我評議就要10位,所以你們這120件回去回去都不要來那這樣大法官就失去他憲法保護神對國家忠誠的一個義務啊所以呢\n我來看看在200在2004年4至572號裡面他也講得很清楚啊甚至於4至590號講得很清楚啊法官在審理各該案件包含非送數件非送事件的時候都可以裁定先停止過去在大審法裡面哪有這個規定沒有啊所以憲法法庭的法官他本來啊他對於法庭審理訴訟法的合憲性啊這樣的一個\n一個先程序問題啊他應該要先行啊在大法官4-601號裡面啊他認為啊他認為如果說\n這樣的一個提高門檻或者任何去阻礙到整個憲法明文規定的釋憲制度會變成形同大法官對行使憲法上職權的一個拒絕那這個就違背了法治國家分權的一個基本的憲政秩序所以藉這個機會也請潘秘書長在整個執政團隊裡面也可以去做一個思考\n因為現在在憲法法庭裡面就有120件這120件裡面人民對憲法法庭本來就是在憲法老百姓擁有的一個訴訟權裡面我對憲法法庭有所期待那怎麼會因為立法院因為藍白連鎖多數把整個憲法法庭的一個審判案件的一個程序門檻把它拉高以後讓系屬在憲法法庭這件案件都無從審理這是不對的所以\n我們也期許憲法法庭的大法官在整個程序先行部分在這120件裡面可以先去像以往一樣做出突破這個才是大法官身為一個憲法的一個守護神然後去守護人民訴訟權他該做的他應該有那個勇氣去做一個突破也讓秘書長做一個參考\n現在也有一部分的目前的有憲法學者是有這樣的論述跟委員的論述是一樣的這個假油啦我是覺得這個不去就說立法院是什麼的這個要求大法官要尊重民意什麼的大法官的概念裡面沒有什麼叫做尊重民意的只要是人啊只要是有受過民主法治的洗禮心目中當然會有民意嘛但重點就是說\n憲法法庭的大法官他本來就是會去回應國民的法律感情可是當他在獨立依法獨立在做出審判的時候他心目中想的是他整個司法的一個獨立然後到底有沒有辦法維護整個憲政秩序的一個運行所以\n這要是有改啦?要是有改啦?有,有,會啦,會朝這個方向來努力第一個總統如期公佈那因為我剛剛講行政是因為我不能代表行政會發言在整個憲政設計上他是應該附屬要不然會打臉總統那這個都是會造成憲政危機那只是說我講的比較保守那這個目前是這樣的方式那至於未來要釋憲與否\n這個暫停處分、疫後事件等等這些都是工具跟手段。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:13.725 --> 00:15.786\n謝謝主席。有請我們總統府秘書長。請潘秘書長。\n\n00:23.380 --> 00:34.671\n委員長好我想在上個禮拜五在立法院這個院會處理的一個選罷法還有裁划法最重要的還有限訴法\n\n00:35.615 --> 00:51.426\n我看總統賴總統他也有對外來做一個回應有一句話我想我特別有感他提到的就是說我看我就講那個重點好了他說守護憲政制度然後手段是用更大的一個民主是不是請潘秘書長該能夠跟我比較清楚的說\n\n00:55.569 --> 01:09.935\n老總統在說的說更大的一個民主他的爭議到底是什麼以現在來看的話一般民眾第一個的想法就是說啊你就看到通過你就不同意啊你覺得這不好啊就提出復議嘛這第一項嘛第二項就是視線嘛\n\n01:14.945 --> 01:41.340\n大家的想法是說更大的民主常常會想到第一個就是說會不會是動用到憲法的覆決然後公投的方式不曉得秘書長可以再做一個說明是感謝委員給我做一個說明那我想總統發表這樣的言論就是因為這整個過程不是一個在合憲合法程序上大概有部分不同的意見\n\n01:42.321 --> 02:02.223\n那所以我們在合憲合法的情況之下的大前提來進行更民主的方式所謂民主程序的方式比如說這個行政院的附屬權與否事憲與否或是這個公佈與否那這些都必須在合法的前提之下\n\n02:02.924 --> 02:16.013\n那甚至呢現在沒剛剛早上又有委員提到什麼要用公投與否這些都是外界的揣測那我想更大的民主更是未來累積更大的能量來下一次能讓國會的改選能夠讓大家有更\n\n02:19.435 --> 02:47.920\n更大的席次來讓整個國會的生態來改變這些也都是選項之一包括公告、附屬與否、制限與否這些都是民主程序更大的民主程序之一那未來我們都會再用這樣的方式在合憲合法的前提之下跟委員來做報告這樣說就更清楚了但是既然是用守護憲政的制度的話他的手段\n\n02:48.880 --> 03:13.180\n我相信就可能就比較不是採取去讓外界認為是違背憲政制度的一個方式了你像比如說我們在憲法37條裡面規定行政院長他你說他沒有去附屬的話這個法律沒有辦法去做一個公佈那或者說總統按照憲法第72條立法院法律通過以後就移送總統跟行政院那總統應該在10天內來公佈那總統也可以選擇不公佈的方式\n\n03:17.981 --> 03:23.866\n我再次追問就是說不附屬或者說不公布這兩個方式應該不會是選項吧\n\n03:25.194 --> 03:47.491\n我想不公布不會是選項因為這個總統是憲法的職權賦予的憲法所負責所以會按如現來公布那至於公布之前是否行政院有賦予與否或是有附屬與否那這些我們必須尊重行政院那所以總統會如期來公布但是公布前必須我們說到這個文字後\n\n03:49.232 --> 04:05.026\n那整個是否在行政院或立法院黨團是否有提事宪或是有所謂的各種行政救濟手段與否這個我不知道但總統會如期公佈總統如期公佈這當然都是合憲但是啊剛剛秘書長提到說行政院長到底會不會附屬就沒有講得很清楚啦我本席倒是總統有要求會\n\n04:15.996 --> 04:32.826\n本席倒是認為,你像譬如說在修憲之前行政院長的附屬權即使他的目的是在制衡續約元首總統的存在而不是阻礙國會立法的一個機制所以我倒認為說行政院長到最後他也不得不附屬\n\n04:37.742 --> 04:53.019\n剛剛國民黨的委員其實這陣子也一直在強調說啊整個憲法法庭這大法官不尊重民意我每一次聽到這句話的時候我都聽到我們比較藍白的孩子在說的我聽到的被悔的是憲法法庭的大法官\n\n04:53.559 --> 05:12.526\n他其實在內心他在意的倒不是什麽民意不民意國民黨或者藍跟白他一直認為說大法官沒有民意基礎啊為什麽這15個人可以操縱生死啊可以把整個立法院這麽大的民意通過的法律就把它解釋成到最後是違憲大法官三個職權\n\n05:19.718 --> 05:40.842\n1解釋憲法2統一解釋法律跟命令3哪怕位高權重具備中華民國最高民意基礎的總統跟副總統他都可以彈劾啊所以大法官哪有什麼民意基礎不民意基礎的一個問題啊大法官其實他是基於整個司法獨立他依法審判就這麼簡單就這麼簡單\n\n05:46.243 --> 05:59.057\n你像比如說我們這個行政部門送過來的那總統府算也是最高的一個憲政機關之一除了五院包括總統府那立法院哪怕是把這些總預算全部都退回了\n\n06:00.449 --> 06:16.225\n按照我們整個預算法54條的規定除了你的新興資本支出還有這個新增的一個計劃你如果是你說全部我都把你退回掉那像上個年度以貨售權的或者上年度的執行\n\n06:17.767 --> 06:30.143\n實行數都可以按照那個數目去做一個凍資這個核心價值就在談一個就是說任何憲政機關都是基於對國家負有忠誠的一個義務問題來了\n\n06:32.938 --> 06:41.183\n立法院去把整個憲法法庭該如何去做整個案件的一個審理你門檻把它拉這麼高這很明顯就是立法權去要把整個司法權把它給架空你要癱瘓整個憲法法庭\n\n06:50.389 --> 07:09.838\n這被迫讓我們的司法機關啊他沒有辦法來對這個國家復起一個忠誠的義務什麼忠誠義務人民的訴訟權啊所以本席到這樣建議我們潘秘書長可以好好的去思考一下在整個執政團隊裡面可以做一個思考你說我在我們現在啊現在系屬在\n\n07:13.735 --> 07:36.497\n我們憲法法庭的案件裡面138件138件中有120件是屬於人民的申請案件本席認為申請者是非常適合用本次修正的條文來作為暫時的一個處分這第一個我們的現在的老百姓就有辦法做到那另外就是說你人民的\n\n07:37.796 --> 08:04.514\n人民的訴訟權因為立法院你像比如說系署在這整個憲法法庭裡面的這120件是屬於我老百姓的讓我老百姓因為你立法院把我把憲法法庭的整個審議的門檻把它提高了以後當中我的案件沒有辦法獲得憲法法庭來10個大法官的一個評議我這做老百姓我們就回家抱著棉被哭所以憲法法庭其實\n\n08:05.535 --> 08:24.264\n本席的見解是說不帶申請根本就不用總統府申請根本就不用立法院申請也不用行政院申請大法官本來他就是整個憲法的守護神在這120件裡面本來就可以程序先行我為什麼這樣講就是說從過去從過去如果說我們看待過去\n\n08:32.172 --> 08:47.934\n在大法官在大審法時代他透過自己的解釋程序法來替各級的法院去開啟申請釋憲的門本來在我們大審法第5條申請憲法解釋只有4款中央政府人民\n\n08:48.775 --> 09:05.615\n立法院、最高法院及刑事法院並沒有各級法院可是呢大法官就告訴我一、你們各級法院的法官碰到你這個審理案件的時候法律到底是不是有違背憲法你可以裁定停止來向我申請\n\n09:06.596 --> 09:27.555\n大審法也沒有這樣的規定啊大法官就主動出擊啊所以呢這個案件在本席看來根本都不需要釋憲釋憲當然是一個方式啊所以反而是啊透過這樣的一個諮詢台啊我向我們的憲法法庭的大法官來做一個呼籲啊在細數憲法法庭的這120件裡面啊本來就是程序先行啊\n\n09:28.496 --> 09:31.917\n你大法官總不能講說,哎,阿沒辦法,你幫人家邀請我,大法官都審法門檻把我審議案件的門檻把我提高以後讓我動彈不得,現在只剩下8位,阿我評議就要10位,所以你們這120件回去回去都不要來那這樣大法官就失去他憲法保護神對國家忠誠的一個義務啊所以呢\n\n09:53.069 --> 10:19.960\n我來看看在200在2004年4至572號裡面他也講得很清楚啊甚至於4至590號講得很清楚啊法官在審理各該案件包含非送數件非送事件的時候都可以裁定先停止過去在大審法裡面哪有這個規定沒有啊所以憲法法庭的法官他本來啊他對於法庭審理訴訟法的合憲性啊這樣的一個\n\n10:21.801 --> 10:28.693\n一個先程序問題啊他應該要先行啊在大法官4-601號裡面啊他認為啊他認為如果說\n\n10:35.337 --> 10:45.161\n這樣的一個提高門檻或者任何去阻礙到整個憲法明文規定的釋憲制度會變成形同大法官對行使憲法上職權的一個拒絕那這個就違背了法治國家分權的一個基本的憲政秩序所以藉這個機會也請潘秘書長在整個執政團隊裡面也可以去做一個思考\n\n11:00.788 --> 11:28.293\n因為現在在憲法法庭裡面就有120件這120件裡面人民對憲法法庭本來就是在憲法老百姓擁有的一個訴訟權裡面我對憲法法庭有所期待那怎麼會因為立法院因為藍白連鎖多數把整個憲法法庭的一個審判案件的一個程序門檻把它拉高以後讓系屬在憲法法庭這件案件都無從審理這是不對的所以\n\n11:29.133 --> 11:38.421\n我們也期許憲法法庭的大法官在整個程序先行部分在這120件裡面可以先去像以往一樣做出突破這個才是大法官身為一個憲法的一個守護神然後去守護人民訴訟權他該做的他應該有那個勇氣去做一個突破也讓秘書長做一個參考\n\n11:53.454 --> 12:19.014\n現在也有一部分的目前的有憲法學者是有這樣的論述跟委員的論述是一樣的這個假油啦我是覺得這個不去就說立法院是什麼的這個要求大法官要尊重民意什麼的大法官的概念裡面沒有什麼叫做尊重民意的只要是人啊只要是有受過民主法治的洗禮心目中當然會有民意嘛但重點就是說\n\n12:23.057 --> 12:42.075\n憲法法庭的大法官他本來就是會去回應國民的法律感情可是當他在獨立依法獨立在做出審判的時候他心目中想的是他整個司法的一個獨立然後到底有沒有辦法維護整個憲政秩序的一個運行所以\n\n12:43.276 --> 13:05.915\n這要是有改啦?要是有改啦?有,有,會啦,會朝這個方向來努力第一個總統如期公佈那因為我剛剛講行政是因為我不能代表行政會發言在整個憲政設計上他是應該附屬要不然會打臉總統那這個都是會造成憲政危機那只是說我講的比較保守那這個目前是這樣的方式那至於未來要釋憲與否\n\n13:09.897 --> 13:14.119\n這個暫停處分、疫後事件等等這些都是工具跟手段。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。\n\n","segments":[{"start":13.725,"end":15.786,"text":"謝謝主席。有請我們總統府秘書長。請潘秘書長。"},{"start":23.38,"end":34.671,"text":"委員長好我想在上個禮拜五在立法院這個院會處理的一個選罷法還有裁划法最重要的還有限訴法"},{"start":35.615,"end":51.426,"text":"我看總統賴總統他也有對外來做一個回應有一句話我想我特別有感他提到的就是說我看我就講那個重點好了他說守護憲政制度然後手段是用更大的一個民主是不是請潘秘書長該能夠跟我比較清楚的說"},{"start":55.569,"end":69.935,"text":"老總統在說的說更大的一個民主他的爭議到底是什麼以現在來看的話一般民眾第一個的想法就是說啊你就看到通過你就不同意啊你覺得這不好啊就提出復議嘛這第一項嘛第二項就是視線嘛"},{"start":74.945,"end":101.34,"text":"大家的想法是說更大的民主常常會想到第一個就是說會不會是動用到憲法的覆決然後公投的方式不曉得秘書長可以再做一個說明是感謝委員給我做一個說明那我想總統發表這樣的言論就是因為這整個過程不是一個在合憲合法程序上大概有部分不同的意見"},{"start":102.321,"end":122.223,"text":"那所以我們在合憲合法的情況之下的大前提來進行更民主的方式所謂民主程序的方式比如說這個行政院的附屬權與否事憲與否或是這個公佈與否那這些都必須在合法的前提之下"},{"start":122.924,"end":136.013,"text":"那甚至呢現在沒剛剛早上又有委員提到什麼要用公投與否這些都是外界的揣測那我想更大的民主更是未來累積更大的能量來下一次能讓國會的改選能夠讓大家有更"},{"start":139.435,"end":167.92,"text":"更大的席次來讓整個國會的生態來改變這些也都是選項之一包括公告、附屬與否、制限與否這些都是民主程序更大的民主程序之一那未來我們都會再用這樣的方式在合憲合法的前提之下跟委員來做報告這樣說就更清楚了但是既然是用守護憲政的制度的話他的手段"},{"start":168.88,"end":193.18,"text":"我相信就可能就比較不是採取去讓外界認為是違背憲政制度的一個方式了你像比如說我們在憲法37條裡面規定行政院長他你說他沒有去附屬的話這個法律沒有辦法去做一個公佈那或者說總統按照憲法第72條立法院法律通過以後就移送總統跟行政院那總統應該在10天內來公佈那總統也可以選擇不公佈的方式"},{"start":197.981,"end":203.866,"text":"我再次追問就是說不附屬或者說不公布這兩個方式應該不會是選項吧"},{"start":205.194,"end":227.491,"text":"我想不公布不會是選項因為這個總統是憲法的職權賦予的憲法所負責所以會按如現來公布那至於公布之前是否行政院有賦予與否或是有附屬與否那這些我們必須尊重行政院那所以總統會如期來公布但是公布前必須我們說到這個文字後"},{"start":229.232,"end":245.026,"text":"那整個是否在行政院或立法院黨團是否有提事宪或是有所謂的各種行政救濟手段與否這個我不知道但總統會如期公佈總統如期公佈這當然都是合憲但是啊剛剛秘書長提到說行政院長到底會不會附屬就沒有講得很清楚啦我本席倒是總統有要求會"},{"start":255.996,"end":272.826,"text":"本席倒是認為,你像譬如說在修憲之前行政院長的附屬權即使他的目的是在制衡續約元首總統的存在而不是阻礙國會立法的一個機制所以我倒認為說行政院長到最後他也不得不附屬"},{"start":277.742,"end":293.019,"text":"剛剛國民黨的委員其實這陣子也一直在強調說啊整個憲法法庭這大法官不尊重民意我每一次聽到這句話的時候我都聽到我們比較藍白的孩子在說的我聽到的被悔的是憲法法庭的大法官"},{"start":293.559,"end":312.526,"text":"他其實在內心他在意的倒不是什麽民意不民意國民黨或者藍跟白他一直認為說大法官沒有民意基礎啊為什麽這15個人可以操縱生死啊可以把整個立法院這麽大的民意通過的法律就把它解釋成到最後是違憲大法官三個職權"},{"start":319.718,"end":340.842,"text":"1解釋憲法2統一解釋法律跟命令3哪怕位高權重具備中華民國最高民意基礎的總統跟副總統他都可以彈劾啊所以大法官哪有什麼民意基礎不民意基礎的一個問題啊大法官其實他是基於整個司法獨立他依法審判就這麼簡單就這麼簡單"},{"start":346.243,"end":359.057,"text":"你像比如說我們這個行政部門送過來的那總統府算也是最高的一個憲政機關之一除了五院包括總統府那立法院哪怕是把這些總預算全部都退回了"},{"start":360.449,"end":376.225,"text":"按照我們整個預算法54條的規定除了你的新興資本支出還有這個新增的一個計劃你如果是你說全部我都把你退回掉那像上個年度以貨售權的或者上年度的執行"},{"start":377.767,"end":390.143,"text":"實行數都可以按照那個數目去做一個凍資這個核心價值就在談一個就是說任何憲政機關都是基於對國家負有忠誠的一個義務問題來了"},{"start":392.938,"end":401.183,"text":"立法院去把整個憲法法庭該如何去做整個案件的一個審理你門檻把它拉這麼高這很明顯就是立法權去要把整個司法權把它給架空你要癱瘓整個憲法法庭"},{"start":410.389,"end":429.838,"text":"這被迫讓我們的司法機關啊他沒有辦法來對這個國家復起一個忠誠的義務什麼忠誠義務人民的訴訟權啊所以本席到這樣建議我們潘秘書長可以好好的去思考一下在整個執政團隊裡面可以做一個思考你說我在我們現在啊現在系屬在"},{"start":433.735,"end":456.497,"text":"我們憲法法庭的案件裡面138件138件中有120件是屬於人民的申請案件本席認為申請者是非常適合用本次修正的條文來作為暫時的一個處分這第一個我們的現在的老百姓就有辦法做到那另外就是說你人民的"},{"start":457.796,"end":484.514,"text":"人民的訴訟權因為立法院你像比如說系署在這整個憲法法庭裡面的這120件是屬於我老百姓的讓我老百姓因為你立法院把我把憲法法庭的整個審議的門檻把它提高了以後當中我的案件沒有辦法獲得憲法法庭來10個大法官的一個評議我這做老百姓我們就回家抱著棉被哭所以憲法法庭其實"},{"start":485.535,"end":504.264,"text":"本席的見解是說不帶申請根本就不用總統府申請根本就不用立法院申請也不用行政院申請大法官本來他就是整個憲法的守護神在這120件裡面本來就可以程序先行我為什麼這樣講就是說從過去從過去如果說我們看待過去"},{"start":512.172,"end":527.934,"text":"在大法官在大審法時代他透過自己的解釋程序法來替各級的法院去開啟申請釋憲的門本來在我們大審法第5條申請憲法解釋只有4款中央政府人民"},{"start":528.775,"end":545.615,"text":"立法院、最高法院及刑事法院並沒有各級法院可是呢大法官就告訴我一、你們各級法院的法官碰到你這個審理案件的時候法律到底是不是有違背憲法你可以裁定停止來向我申請"},{"start":546.596,"end":567.555,"text":"大審法也沒有這樣的規定啊大法官就主動出擊啊所以呢這個案件在本席看來根本都不需要釋憲釋憲當然是一個方式啊所以反而是啊透過這樣的一個諮詢台啊我向我們的憲法法庭的大法官來做一個呼籲啊在細數憲法法庭的這120件裡面啊本來就是程序先行啊"},{"start":568.496,"end":571.917,"text":"你大法官總不能講說,哎,阿沒辦法,你幫人家邀請我,大法官都審法門檻把我審議案件的門檻把我提高以後讓我動彈不得,現在只剩下8位,阿我評議就要10位,所以你們這120件回去回去都不要來那這樣大法官就失去他憲法保護神對國家忠誠的一個義務啊所以呢"},{"start":593.069,"end":619.96,"text":"我來看看在200在2004年4至572號裡面他也講得很清楚啊甚至於4至590號講得很清楚啊法官在審理各該案件包含非送數件非送事件的時候都可以裁定先停止過去在大審法裡面哪有這個規定沒有啊所以憲法法庭的法官他本來啊他對於法庭審理訴訟法的合憲性啊這樣的一個"},{"start":621.801,"end":628.693,"text":"一個先程序問題啊他應該要先行啊在大法官4-601號裡面啊他認為啊他認為如果說"},{"start":635.337,"end":645.161,"text":"這樣的一個提高門檻或者任何去阻礙到整個憲法明文規定的釋憲制度會變成形同大法官對行使憲法上職權的一個拒絕那這個就違背了法治國家分權的一個基本的憲政秩序所以藉這個機會也請潘秘書長在整個執政團隊裡面也可以去做一個思考"},{"start":660.788,"end":688.293,"text":"因為現在在憲法法庭裡面就有120件這120件裡面人民對憲法法庭本來就是在憲法老百姓擁有的一個訴訟權裡面我對憲法法庭有所期待那怎麼會因為立法院因為藍白連鎖多數把整個憲法法庭的一個審判案件的一個程序門檻把它拉高以後讓系屬在憲法法庭這件案件都無從審理這是不對的所以"},{"start":689.133,"end":698.421,"text":"我們也期許憲法法庭的大法官在整個程序先行部分在這120件裡面可以先去像以往一樣做出突破這個才是大法官身為一個憲法的一個守護神然後去守護人民訴訟權他該做的他應該有那個勇氣去做一個突破也讓秘書長做一個參考"},{"start":713.454,"end":739.014,"text":"現在也有一部分的目前的有憲法學者是有這樣的論述跟委員的論述是一樣的這個假油啦我是覺得這個不去就說立法院是什麼的這個要求大法官要尊重民意什麼的大法官的概念裡面沒有什麼叫做尊重民意的只要是人啊只要是有受過民主法治的洗禮心目中當然會有民意嘛但重點就是說"},{"start":743.057,"end":762.075,"text":"憲法法庭的大法官他本來就是會去回應國民的法律感情可是當他在獨立依法獨立在做出審判的時候他心目中想的是他整個司法的一個獨立然後到底有沒有辦法維護整個憲政秩序的一個運行所以"},{"start":763.276,"end":785.915,"text":"這要是有改啦?要是有改啦?有,有,會啦,會朝這個方向來努力第一個總統如期公佈那因為我剛剛講行政是因為我不能代表行政會發言在整個憲政設計上他是應該附屬要不然會打臉總統那這個都是會造成憲政危機那只是說我講的比較保守那這個目前是這樣的方式那至於未來要釋憲與否"},{"start":789.897,"end":794.119,"text":"這個暫停處分、疫後事件等等這些都是工具跟手段。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1061,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時36分）謝謝主席。有請總統府秘書長。"],["主席：請潘秘書長。"],["潘秘書長孟安：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：秘書長好。上個禮拜五在立法院院會處理選罷法，還有財劃法，最重要的還有憲訴法，我看賴總統也有對外來回應，有一句話我特別有感，我就講他提到的重點好了，他說守護憲政制度，手段是用更大的民主。請潘秘書長可不可以再講清楚一點，賴總統說更大的民主，真意到底是什麼？以現在來看的話，一般民眾第一個想法就是法律通過，但你不同意，你覺得不好，所以就提出覆議，這是第一項。第二項就是釋憲，大家的想法是，更大的民主常常會想到第一個，會不會是動用到憲法的複決，以公投的方式？秘書長也可以再說明。"],["潘秘書長孟安：感謝委員，讓我說明。我想總統發表這樣的言論，就是因為整個過程不是一個合憲合法程序，而且有部分不同的意見，所以我們在合憲合法的大前提之下，進行更民主的方式。所謂民主程序的方式，比如行政院的副署與否、釋憲與否，或是公布與否，這些都必須在合法的前提之下，甚至早上又有委員提到要用公投與否，這些都是外界的揣測。我想更大的民主是未來累積更大的能量，能讓下一次國會改選有更多席次，讓整個國會的生態來改變，這些也都是選項之一。包括公告、副署或釋憲與否，這些都是更大的民主程序之一，未來我們都會用這樣的方式，在合憲合法的前提之下，跟委員來報告。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這樣說就更清楚了。既然是守護憲政制度的話，我相信他的手段就可能不是採取讓外界認為違背憲政制度的方式。比如憲法第三十七條規定，行政院長沒有副署的話，這個法律沒有辦法公布，或者總統按照憲法第七十二條，立法院法律案通過以後，移送總統跟行政院，總統應該在10天內來公布，總統也可以選擇不公布的方式。我再次追問，不副署或者不公布這兩個方式應該不會是選項吧？"],["潘秘書長孟安：我想不公布不會是選項，因為總統是憲法賦予職權的憲法守護者，所以會如憲公布，至於公布之前行政院覆議與否或副署與否，這些我們必須尊重行政院，所以總統會如期公布，但是公布前，我們必須收到這個文，行政院或立法院黨團是否有提釋憲，或是有所謂的各種行政救濟手段，這個我不知道，但總統會如期公布。"],["莊委員瑞雄：總統如期公布，這當然都是合憲。"],["潘秘書長孟安：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：但是，剛剛秘書長提到說行政院長到底會不會副署就沒有講得很清楚啦，本席……"],["潘秘書長孟安：總統有要求，會。"],["莊委員瑞雄：本席倒是認為，譬如在修憲之前，行政院長的副署權，其實它的目的是在制衡虛位元首總統的存在，而不是阻礙國會立法的一個機制，所以我倒認為說行政院長到最後也不得不副署。"],["潘秘書長孟安：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：國民黨的委員其實這陣子也一直在強調說，整個憲法法庭，大法官不尊重民意，我每一次聽到這句話的時候都覺得，就像南部小孩常說的「我聽得都快要吐血」，因為憲法法庭的大法官其實他內心在意的倒不是什麼民意不民意，國民黨或者藍白一直認為大法官沒有民意基礎，為什麼這15個人可以操縱生死，可以把立法院這麼大的民意通過的法律最後解釋成是違憲？大法官有三個職權：第一個，解釋憲法；第二個，統一解釋法律跟命令；第三個，哪怕是位高權重，具備中華民國最高民意基礎的總統跟副總統，他都可以彈劾，所以大法官哪有什麼民意基礎、不民意基礎的問題？大法官其實是基於整個司法獨立，依法審判，就這麼簡單、就這麼簡單！","比如說我們行政部門送過來的，總統府也算是最高的憲政機關之一，除了五院，包括總統府，立法院哪怕是把這些總預算全部都退回了，其實按照整個預算法第五十四條的規定，除了新興資本支出還有新增的計畫，像上個年度已獲授權的或者上年度的執行數，都可以按照那個數目去做動支，這就是在談一個核心價值，就是任何憲政機關都是基於對國家負有忠誠的義務。問題來了，立法院把憲法法庭審理案件的門檻拉得這麼高，很明顯就是立法權要把整個司法權給架空，要癱瘓整個憲法法庭，被迫讓我們的司法機關沒有辦法來對這個國家負起一個忠誠的義務，什麼忠誠義務？人民的訴訟權！","所以本席這樣建議潘秘書長可以好好的去思考一下，在整個執政團隊裡面可以去做一個思考。現在繫屬在憲法法庭的案件裡面有138件，其中有120件是屬於人民的聲請案件，本席認為，聲請者是非常適合用本次修正的條文來作為一個暫時的處分，這是第一個，我們現在的老百姓就有辦法做到。另外，人民的訴訟權，比如繫屬在憲法法庭的這120件是屬於我老百姓的，老百姓因為立法院把憲法法庭的審議門檻提高了以後，變成他們的案件沒有辦法獲得憲法法庭10個大法官的評議，那老百姓不就回家抱著棉被哭？所以其實本席的見解是說，憲法法庭不待聲請，根本就不用總統府聲請，根本就不用立法院聲請，也不用行政院聲請，大法官本來就是整個憲法的守護神，在這120件裡面，本來就可以程序先行。","我為什麼這樣講？就是說從過去，如果我們看待過去大法官在大審法時代，他透過自己的解釋程序法，來替各級的法院去開啟聲請釋憲的門，本來在大審法第五條聲請憲法解釋只有四種：中央政府、人民、立法院、最高法院跟行政法院，並沒有各級法院，可是大法官就說，以後各級法院的法官審理案件的時候，碰到法律是不是有違背憲法的問題，可以裁定停止來向我聲請，大審法也沒有這樣的規定，可是大法官就主動出擊。所以這個案件在本席看來根本都不需要釋憲，釋憲當然是一個方式，透過這樣的質詢，我也向我們憲法法庭的大法官來做一個呼籲，在繫屬憲法法庭的這120件裡面，本來就是程序先行，你大法官總不能講說，沒辦法，立法院那些「夭壽仔」把審議案件的門檻提高以後，讓我動彈不得，現在只剩下8位，但評議就要10位，所以你們這120件回去，都不要來，這樣大法官就失去他身為憲法保護神對國家忠誠的義務。","再看看2004年釋字第572號也講得很清楚，甚至於釋字第590號也講得很清楚，法官在審理各該案件，包含非訟事件的時候都可以裁定先停止，過去在大審法裡面哪有這個規定？沒有。所以憲法法庭的法官本來對於法庭審理訴訟法的合憲性應該程序先行。大法官釋字第601號也認為，如果提高門檻或任何阻礙到憲法明文規定的釋憲制度，會形同對大法官行使憲法上職權的拒絕，這個就違背了法治國家分權的基本憲政秩序。","所以我藉這個機會，也請潘秘書長在整個執政團隊裡面去做一個思考，因為現在在憲法法庭裡面就有120件，這120件本來就是憲法明定的老百姓擁有的訴訟權，老百姓對憲法法庭有所期待，怎麼會因為立法院因為藍白聯手把憲法法庭審判案件的程序門檻拉高以後，讓繫屬在憲法法庭的這些案件都無從審理？這是不對的。"],["潘秘書長孟安：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以我們也期許憲法法庭的大法官在程序先行部分，在這120件裡面可以先像以往一樣做出突破，這才是大法官身為憲法守護神去守護人民訴訟權該做的，他應該有那個勇氣去做一個突破，也讓秘書長來參考。"],["潘秘書長孟安：謝謝，現在也有一部分的憲法學者是有這樣的論述，跟委員的論述是一樣的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這部分要加油啦！我是覺得沒有說立法院要求大法官要尊重民意，在大法官的概念裡面沒有什麼叫做尊重民意的，只要是人，只要是有受過民主法治的洗禮，心目中當然會有民意嘛，重點就是憲法法庭的大法官本來就會去回應國民的法律感情，可是當他在依法獨立審判的時候，他心中想的是整個司法獨立，以及到底有沒有辦法維護整個憲政秩序的運行，所以這還是有解啦！還是有解啦！秘書長？"],["潘秘書長孟安：有，會啦！會朝這個方向來努力，第一個，總統如期公布，因為我剛剛講行政院是因為我不能代表行政院發言，在整個憲政設計上，他是應該副署，要不然會打臉總統，這個都是會造成憲政危機，只是說我講的比較保守，目前是這樣的方式，至於未來要釋憲與否，暫停處分抑或釋憲等等這些都是工具跟手段。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，謝謝。"],["潘秘書長孟安：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員、謝謝潘秘書長。稍後在陳委員俊宇詢答完畢後，休息5分鐘。","接下來我們請吳委員思瑤發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":228,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-22","speakers":["鍾佳濱","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","黃國昌","洪孟楷","賴瑞隆","徐富癸"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-25"],"gazette_id":"1141303","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1141303_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於總統府主管（不含中央研究院）收支部分；二、處理113\n年度中央政府總預算關於總統府預算凍結項目1案","agenda_id":"1141303_00001"}}}