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{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 749.588, \"end\": 749.768, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 749.768, \"end\": 749.908, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 749.908, \"end\": 750.048, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 750.048, \"end\": 750.369, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 750.369, \"end\": 750.529, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"燕\", \"start\": 750.529, \"end\": 752.19, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"秀\", \"start\": 752.19, \"end\": 752.31, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 752.31, \"end\": 752.35, \"score\": 0.496}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 752.35, \"end\": 752.51, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"著\", \"start\": 752.51, \"end\": 752.71, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"伍\", \"start\": 752.71, \"end\": 752.891, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"麗\"}, {\"word\": \"華\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 752.891, \"end\": 753.051, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 753.051, \"end\": 753.071, \"score\": 0.602}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,868 --> 00:00:04,550\n謝謝主席,我是不是可以請部長,莊部長好,請莊部長委員長部長早安,我們今年已經到了年底剛聽了李昆城委員的發言其實每一個法案對於每一個修法的方向其實對於人民都是事關重大都有它重要的面向不是哪一個法案不重要每一個都非常的重要這是我必須要再次強調\n\n2\n00:00:30,503 --> 00:00:45,609\n現在到了年底大部分稅收其實都已經收上來了我們今年度113年度目前的稅收我從媒體上看到已經大概超徵的部分已經到達5000億左右這個數字對不對?\n\n3\n00:00:47,310 --> 00:00:53,053\n委員您講的5000億出估是全國,這裡面包含地方稅我時間有限,部長你直接回應我就好了,是不是差不多意思?差不多吧\n\n4\n00:01:07,960 --> 00:01:26,490\n我們從之前我們都一直說不管是中央或地方特別是中央的部分我們以前都是超徵稅收所以我們也成立了一個稅收出估的專案小組你對於目前這個專案小組的進行作業還有每一年我們認就是稅收超徵的狀況你滿意嗎?\n\n5\n00:01:28,525 --> 00:01:46,510\n我們是從推估113年的時候有才成立這個小組之前是沒有那這個部分我們已經強化這個我們看到每一年超增稅收的這個結果數字一年比一年高可見還是沒有達到它的成效就目前這樣看起來那到底我們要\n\n6\n00:01:47,390 --> 00:02:08,432\n還要幾年我們才能夠達到應該有的準確度你不用跟我講增加多少,我要的是當時我們成立這個小組的目的是希望精準的,我不應該說精準,你有一定的誤差範圍\n\n7\n00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:22,927\n能達到他的目的你不用跟我講你調整了多少你調整了20、30你那個預估數字差異太大還是沒有意義這不是你成立的目的嘛所以到底多久你才能夠達到他的精準度準確度\n\n8\n00:02:24,228 --> 00:02:48,117\n這個部分因為除了我們在當時在估測的時候相關因素都考慮之外其實還有其他的因素是不能你無法預料的比如說113年的政交稅AI的一個風潮起來所以它的日均量達到4800億跟我們當時在編113年的時候我們的日均量是編3500多億來估算部長你說沒有辦法預料我要再一次提醒你喔\n\n9\n00:02:48,957 --> 00:03:10,033\n你如果永遠都跟我講這個是沒辦法預料那個沒辦法預料這個就沒有辦法達到你當時成立這個單位的目的那我要再次提問部長這個不是我今天質詢的重點我們差增稅收的用途大部分都是用來減少舉債增加債務還本每一年都有對不對還有什麼用途過去還有什麼用途\n\n10\n00:03:10,353 --> 00:03:11,014\n審議剩餘作為以後年度的融資財源\n\n11\n00:03:27,571 --> 00:03:32,596\n作品後年度的融資財源比如說我們的有累計聲譽在編下一年度的時候比如說在編114年度的預算的時候我們之間的因為有一個gap就大概有一個數字到1206億所以有500億是用來移用稅計聲譽然後減少舉債的數額這都是融資財源\n\n12\n00:03:48,550 --> 00:04:06,705\n好部長那我不跟你你不要浪費我的時間啦重點就是說包括以今年度為今年初你就說要幫台電這個還款一千億嘛撥補一千億給台電嘛那這兩天我從新聞上看到包括你們跟著行政院開記者會我要請問\n\n13\n00:04:08,567 --> 00:04:25,465\n財務法已經通過了從中央拿3257億你們現在對外的說法就是說變成要從邊預算如果按照整個財務的分配是不是有從邊預算這個方式可以處理\n\n14\n00:04:27,453 --> 00:04:49,532\n委員我沒有說要從編預算我只跟各位委員報告就是說114年度預算行政院編列完成以後已經送到行政院送到立法院大院也都在審查當中都在審查當中所以現在財化法的通過不管大家各政黨對於這件事情看法不一但是絕對不是只有從編預算這個途徑對不對\n\n15\n00:04:53,445 --> 00:05:10,363\n還有其他的處理方法嗎我們現在財政部和主計總處我們目前在檢視這個財化法的修法的內容以後對中央施政的一個摯愛以及後續以什麼樣的方式來做救濟措施都和行政院在評估當中那我就提供你一個方法嘛\n\n16\n00:05:11,164 --> 00:05:19,009\n你們現在對外的就是混淆視聽你們講的就是說只有從邊預算現在從邊預算這個對於明年度的預算造成的衝擊或者摯愛難行時間不夠你們現在的說法都是這樣所以我才講我剛為什麼一開始問稅計剩餘因為以台電撥補1000億你也是今年年初說要撥補台電1000億你用追加的預算方式來去撥補然後等到年終的時候稅計剩餘的時候再緩緩回來這是你對於台電1000億的撥補的處理方法跟模式嘛\n\n17\n00:05:41,224 --> 00:05:43,946\n台電這件事情你是用這樣的處理模式先撥補等到隔年稅劑剩餘出來的時候先借錢就用追加預算來借這1000億等到稅劑剩餘出來的時候再來去做還款這是對台電的部分你是用這樣的處理模式\n\n18\n00:05:57,655 --> 00:06:10,996\n當然對於這次財劃法的通過要多撥補3257億你一樣可以用追加減預算的方式先去電資撥給地方然後等明年稅計剩餘出來因為目前稅計剩餘有5000億\n\n19\n00:06:12,799 --> 00:06:25,330\n出估有5000億即便沒有那麼多有4000億我們再來還款回來這是我建議的方式所以不要對外混淆視聽這是第一點我要說的模式沒有關係但我要提醒的就是說稅率剩餘我知道到年終才會出來\n\n20\n00:06:32,276 --> 00:06:50,464\n但是目前3257億我們可以用追加減預算的形式處理等到年終我們稅計剩餘出來的時候再撥補回去這也是一種過去你也用過的模式用在台電身上我們過去就用這樣的模式\n\n21\n00:06:51,204 --> 00:06:59,269\n不是第一次也不是首例這我要提醒你的地方所以我覺得這整件事情不要對外混淆視聽這對於我們現在3.2兆的總預算完全沒有關係你要做長照你要做運動獎金你要撥補什麼東西其實一點影響也沒有也跟什麼舉賽上線還款完全一點關係都沒有\n\n22\n00:07:17,299 --> 00:07:34,468\n這是我要提醒部長的地方不要對外混淆視聽這是我今天對於財化法後續的處理會不會對於114年度造成的衝擊我要提出另外一個解決的方法要提醒你你比我還要懂因為你是專業不要在這邊混淆視聽那第二個因為時間剩下不多我部長我要問頂尊大長\n\n23\n00:07:41,852 --> 00:08:10,004\n我也是針對事實說明我也是針對事實提供你一個過去你處理過的方法所以不會造成對於其他什麼長照今年3.2兆的預算已經在審而且不會影響到3.2兆預算也就是說明年5月我們要做長照我們要給軍公教的薪水我們要給學校的哪些東西完全一點關係都沒有這是我要強調的地方好第二點我要問的還是我們那個雲端發票的事情後續的處理\n\n24\n00:08:11,064 --> 00:08:33,331\n這整件事情已經過了一個多月我覺得到目前為止我們還一直都沒有給一個完整的交代這整件事情分三大塊雖然當時我們在質詢的時候我們說這個案子已經送檢調再調查檢調的調查是屬於刑事責任的部分當然這整件事情我們還有行政責任跟民事的履約\n\n25\n00:08:34,651 --> 00:08:40,559\n你們整件事情內控的部分應該有做過檢討對不對部長如果沒有做過檢討這不合理嗎對不對這件事情會發生其實我們都覺得很離譜媒體、國人都覺得很離譜怎麼會獎金設計出一個\n\n26\n00:08:51,595 --> 00:08:53,357\n公視奇怪的模式\n\n27\n00:09:07,948 --> 00:09:35,404\n還有包括立法院要監督我們想了解都還調不到資料你們對我們上次問過你們有沒有對我們立法院提供要求提供的資料你們也都沒有提供說明整件事情除了檢調的調查行事責任我們尊重我們不介入但是對於行政責任跟民事履約的部分你們也都沒有交代因為這個牽涉到我們跟產商之間到底價金要不要減少我們要不要終止契約我們要不要解除契約\n\n28\n00:09:36,585 --> 00:09:40,373\n到目前為止完全沒有交代這不合理嘛\n\n29\n00:09:41,724 --> 00:10:06,137\n部長已經一個多月過去了我尊重檢調的調查為前提我們內控的部分民事的履約民事的履約跟我們所謂的我們的刑事責任都沒有給立法院一個交代跟委員報告我們當時有因為當時要我們兩週內提出書面報告我們書面報告已經送了第一個就是我們對內部的人員的相關的調查\n\n30\n00:10:07,518 --> 00:10:35,549\n已經都很清楚這些草案重點沒有我們要看的是當時事業內容是什麼要求的我們跟他們會議之間城市設計是我們要求他這樣設計還是廠商自己設計我們當時有講過第一個我們是為什麼要辦這個活動的目的很清楚有告訴廠商但是廠商在城市設計的邏輯上到底有沒有超過這樣的一個目的已經在檢調在調查至於民事的部分我們已經也向臺北地院提起民事的訴訟要求廠商就侵權行為做損害賠償這個部分都有做\n\n31\n00:10:36,289 --> 00:10:56,491\n跟委員報告我們一直都有做沒有說重視這個事情我們絕不希望這個事情再重複發生所以這個都我們很嚴謹的在看待好部長那我昨天從媒體上看到說你們要求他道歉登報道歉有這件事情嗎對我們有提起民事訴訟對要求他道歉是不是我不知道這是哪一個偉大的律師\n\n32\n00:10:58,072 --> 00:11:23,578\n教你們說請他登報道歉登報道歉這個是立法院我們立法院要追的還是他的刑事責任他的民事責任道歉這件事情在大法官的判決在112年大法官的判決裡面道歉這件事情是違憲的你知道嗎我們這個部分提起民事訴訟由法院裁判然後另外後續我們還會繼續的做追訴的部長我再問你\n\n33\n00:11:25,658 --> 00:11:46,029\n你們要求他登報道歉這件事情對我來說我看起來是很可笑我不知道是哪一個這麼聰明的律師教你們說要道歉我照明事實上一定要追登報道歉這件事情如果是你們要求我覺得那個都不是立法院要的更何況這件事情是違憲的大法官判決是違憲為什麼我這麼說之前大法官有解釋說\n\n34\n00:11:47,009 --> 00:12:12,008\n黑人要求那個陳建宗要求道歉的時候當時那個案件的時候要求道歉的時候憲法的判決就講說這個強制道歉是公開的違憲我們常常在你們常常在行政院常常在罵立法院或執政黨在罵立法院說在野黨是違憲你要求道歉這件事情現在已經沒有道歉這件事情而且直接被憲法解釋道歉是違憲的\n\n35\n00:12:14,636 --> 00:12:33,071\n各位應該著重是契約問題而不是強制公開道歉道歉我要提醒你你的律師哪一個聰明的律師叫你做違憲道歉這件事情思考清楚好謝謝委員的指教謝謝好謝謝燕秀委員接著請伍麗華委員發言\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n868\t4550\t謝謝主席,我是不是可以請部長,莊部長好,請莊部長委員長部長早安,我們今年已經到了年底剛聽了李昆城委員的發言其實每一個法案對於每一個修法的方向其實對於人民都是事關重大都有它重要的面向不是哪一個法案不重要每一個都非常的重要這是我必須要再次強調\n30503\t45609\t現在到了年底大部分稅收其實都已經收上來了我們今年度113年度目前的稅收我從媒體上看到已經大概超徵的部分已經到達5000億左右這個數字對不對?\n47310\t53053\t委員您講的5000億出估是全國,這裡面包含地方稅我時間有限,部長你直接回應我就好了,是不是差不多意思?差不多吧\n67960\t86490\t我們從之前我們都一直說不管是中央或地方特別是中央的部分我們以前都是超徵稅收所以我們也成立了一個稅收出估的專案小組你對於目前這個專案小組的進行作業還有每一年我們認就是稅收超徵的狀況你滿意嗎?\n88525\t106510\t我們是從推估113年的時候有才成立這個小組之前是沒有那這個部分我們已經強化這個我們看到每一年超增稅收的這個結果數字一年比一年高可見還是沒有達到它的成效就目前這樣看起來那到底我們要\n107390\t128432\t還要幾年我們才能夠達到應該有的準確度你不用跟我講增加多少,我要的是當時我們成立這個小組的目的是希望精準的,我不應該說精準,你有一定的誤差範圍\n130120\t142927\t能達到他的目的你不用跟我講你調整了多少你調整了20、30你那個預估數字差異太大還是沒有意義這不是你成立的目的嘛所以到底多久你才能夠達到他的精準度準確度\n144228\t168117\t這個部分因為除了我們在當時在估測的時候相關因素都考慮之外其實還有其他的因素是不能你無法預料的比如說113年的政交稅AI的一個風潮起來所以它的日均量達到4800億跟我們當時在編113年的時候我們的日均量是編3500多億來估算部長你說沒有辦法預料我要再一次提醒你喔\n168957\t190033\t你如果永遠都跟我講這個是沒辦法預料那個沒辦法預料這個就沒有辦法達到你當時成立這個單位的目的那我要再次提問部長這個不是我今天質詢的重點我們差增稅收的用途大部分都是用來減少舉債增加債務還本每一年都有對不對還有什麼用途過去還有什麼用途\n190353\t191014\t審議剩餘作為以後年度的融資財源\n207571\t212596\t作品後年度的融資財源比如說我們的有累計聲譽在編下一年度的時候比如說在編114年度的預算的時候我們之間的因為有一個gap就大概有一個數字到1206億所以有500億是用來移用稅計聲譽然後減少舉債的數額這都是融資財源\n228550\t246705\t好部長那我不跟你你不要浪費我的時間啦重點就是說包括以今年度為今年初你就說要幫台電這個還款一千億嘛撥補一千億給台電嘛那這兩天我從新聞上看到包括你們跟著行政院開記者會我要請問\n248567\t265465\t財務法已經通過了從中央拿3257億你們現在對外的說法就是說變成要從邊預算如果按照整個財務的分配是不是有從邊預算這個方式可以處理\n267453\t289532\t委員我沒有說要從編預算我只跟各位委員報告就是說114年度預算行政院編列完成以後已經送到行政院送到立法院大院也都在審查當中都在審查當中所以現在財化法的通過不管大家各政黨對於這件事情看法不一但是絕對不是只有從編預算這個途徑對不對\n293445\t310363\t還有其他的處理方法嗎我們現在財政部和主計總處我們目前在檢視這個財化法的修法的內容以後對中央施政的一個摯愛以及後續以什麼樣的方式來做救濟措施都和行政院在評估當中那我就提供你一個方法嘛\n311164\t319009\t你們現在對外的就是混淆視聽你們講的就是說只有從邊預算現在從邊預算這個對於明年度的預算造成的衝擊或者摯愛難行時間不夠你們現在的說法都是這樣所以我才講我剛為什麼一開始問稅計剩餘因為以台電撥補1000億你也是今年年初說要撥補台電1000億你用追加的預算方式來去撥補然後等到年終的時候稅計剩餘的時候再緩緩回來這是你對於台電1000億的撥補的處理方法跟模式嘛\n341224\t343946\t台電這件事情你是用這樣的處理模式先撥補等到隔年稅劑剩餘出來的時候先借錢就用追加預算來借這1000億等到稅劑剩餘出來的時候再來去做還款這是對台電的部分你是用這樣的處理模式\n357655\t370996\t當然對於這次財劃法的通過要多撥補3257億你一樣可以用追加減預算的方式先去電資撥給地方然後等明年稅計剩餘出來因為目前稅計剩餘有5000億\n372799\t385330\t出估有5000億即便沒有那麼多有4000億我們再來還款回來這是我建議的方式所以不要對外混淆視聽這是第一點我要說的模式沒有關係但我要提醒的就是說稅率剩餘我知道到年終才會出來\n392276\t410464\t但是目前3257億我們可以用追加減預算的形式處理等到年終我們稅計剩餘出來的時候再撥補回去這也是一種過去你也用過的模式用在台電身上我們過去就用這樣的模式\n411204\t419269\t不是第一次也不是首例這我要提醒你的地方所以我覺得這整件事情不要對外混淆視聽這對於我們現在3.2兆的總預算完全沒有關係你要做長照你要做運動獎金你要撥補什麼東西其實一點影響也沒有也跟什麼舉賽上線還款完全一點關係都沒有\n437299\t454468\t這是我要提醒部長的地方不要對外混淆視聽這是我今天對於財化法後續的處理會不會對於114年度造成的衝擊我要提出另外一個解決的方法要提醒你你比我還要懂因為你是專業不要在這邊混淆視聽那第二個因為時間剩下不多我部長我要問頂尊大長\n461852\t490004\t我也是針對事實說明我也是針對事實提供你一個過去你處理過的方法所以不會造成對於其他什麼長照今年3.2兆的預算已經在審而且不會影響到3.2兆預算也就是說明年5月我們要做長照我們要給軍公教的薪水我們要給學校的哪些東西完全一點關係都沒有這是我要強調的地方好第二點我要問的還是我們那個雲端發票的事情後續的處理\n491064\t513331\t這整件事情已經過了一個多月我覺得到目前為止我們還一直都沒有給一個完整的交代這整件事情分三大塊雖然當時我們在質詢的時候我們說這個案子已經送檢調再調查檢調的調查是屬於刑事責任的部分當然這整件事情我們還有行政責任跟民事的履約\n514651\t520559\t你們整件事情內控的部分應該有做過檢討對不對部長如果沒有做過檢討這不合理嗎對不對這件事情會發生其實我們都覺得很離譜媒體、國人都覺得很離譜怎麼會獎金設計出一個\n531595\t533357\t公視奇怪的模式\n547948\t575404\t還有包括立法院要監督我們想了解都還調不到資料你們對我們上次問過你們有沒有對我們立法院提供要求提供的資料你們也都沒有提供說明整件事情除了檢調的調查行事責任我們尊重我們不介入但是對於行政責任跟民事履約的部分你們也都沒有交代因為這個牽涉到我們跟產商之間到底價金要不要減少我們要不要終止契約我們要不要解除契約\n576585\t580373\t到目前為止完全沒有交代這不合理嘛\n581724\t606137\t部長已經一個多月過去了我尊重檢調的調查為前提我們內控的部分民事的履約民事的履約跟我們所謂的我們的刑事責任都沒有給立法院一個交代跟委員報告我們當時有因為當時要我們兩週內提出書面報告我們書面報告已經送了第一個就是我們對內部的人員的相關的調查\n607518\t635549\t已經都很清楚這些草案重點沒有我們要看的是當時事業內容是什麼要求的我們跟他們會議之間城市設計是我們要求他這樣設計還是廠商自己設計我們當時有講過第一個我們是為什麼要辦這個活動的目的很清楚有告訴廠商但是廠商在城市設計的邏輯上到底有沒有超過這樣的一個目的已經在檢調在調查至於民事的部分我們已經也向臺北地院提起民事的訴訟要求廠商就侵權行為做損害賠償這個部分都有做\n636289\t656491\t跟委員報告我們一直都有做沒有說重視這個事情我們絕不希望這個事情再重複發生所以這個都我們很嚴謹的在看待好部長那我昨天從媒體上看到說你們要求他道歉登報道歉有這件事情嗎對我們有提起民事訴訟對要求他道歉是不是我不知道這是哪一個偉大的律師\n658072\t683578\t教你們說請他登報道歉登報道歉這個是立法院我們立法院要追的還是他的刑事責任他的民事責任道歉這件事情在大法官的判決在112年大法官的判決裡面道歉這件事情是違憲的你知道嗎我們這個部分提起民事訴訟由法院裁判然後另外後續我們還會繼續的做追訴的部長我再問你\n685658\t706029\t你們要求他登報道歉這件事情對我來說我看起來是很可笑我不知道是哪一個這麼聰明的律師教你們說要道歉我照明事實上一定要追登報道歉這件事情如果是你們要求我覺得那個都不是立法院要的更何況這件事情是違憲的大法官判決是違憲為什麼我這麼說之前大法官有解釋說\n707009\t732008\t黑人要求那個陳建宗要求道歉的時候當時那個案件的時候要求道歉的時候憲法的判決就講說這個強制道歉是公開的違憲我們常常在你們常常在行政院常常在罵立法院或執政黨在罵立法院說在野黨是違憲你要求道歉這件事情現在已經沒有道歉這件事情而且直接被憲法解釋道歉是違憲的\n734636\t753071\t各位應該著重是契約問題而不是強制公開道歉道歉 我要提醒你你的律師哪一個聰明的律師叫你做違憲道歉這件事情思考清楚好 謝謝委員的指教 謝謝好 謝謝燕秀委員接著請伍麗華委員發言\n","txt":"謝謝主席,我是不是可以請部長,莊部長好,請莊部長委員長部長早安,我們今年已經到了年底剛聽了李昆城委員的發言其實每一個法案對於每一個修法的方向其實對於人民都是事關重大都有它重要的面向不是哪一個法案不重要每一個都非常的重要這是我必須要再次強調\n現在到了年底大部分稅收其實都已經收上來了我們今年度113年度目前的稅收我從媒體上看到已經大概超徵的部分已經到達5000億左右這個數字對不對?\n委員您講的5000億出估是全國,這裡面包含地方稅我時間有限,部長你直接回應我就好了,是不是差不多意思?差不多吧\n我們從之前我們都一直說不管是中央或地方特別是中央的部分我們以前都是超徵稅收所以我們也成立了一個稅收出估的專案小組你對於目前這個專案小組的進行作業還有每一年我們認就是稅收超徵的狀況你滿意嗎?\n我們是從推估113年的時候有才成立這個小組之前是沒有那這個部分我們已經強化這個我們看到每一年超增稅收的這個結果數字一年比一年高可見還是沒有達到它的成效就目前這樣看起來那到底我們要\n還要幾年我們才能夠達到應該有的準確度你不用跟我講增加多少,我要的是當時我們成立這個小組的目的是希望精準的,我不應該說精準,你有一定的誤差範圍\n能達到他的目的你不用跟我講你調整了多少你調整了20、30你那個預估數字差異太大還是沒有意義這不是你成立的目的嘛所以到底多久你才能夠達到他的精準度準確度\n這個部分因為除了我們在當時在估測的時候相關因素都考慮之外其實還有其他的因素是不能你無法預料的比如說113年的政交稅AI的一個風潮起來所以它的日均量達到4800億跟我們當時在編113年的時候我們的日均量是編3500多億來估算部長你說沒有辦法預料我要再一次提醒你喔\n你如果永遠都跟我講這個是沒辦法預料那個沒辦法預料這個就沒有辦法達到你當時成立這個單位的目的那我要再次提問部長這個不是我今天質詢的重點我們差增稅收的用途大部分都是用來減少舉債增加債務還本每一年都有對不對還有什麼用途過去還有什麼用途\n審議剩餘作為以後年度的融資財源\n作品後年度的融資財源比如說我們的有累計聲譽在編下一年度的時候比如說在編114年度的預算的時候我們之間的因為有一個gap就大概有一個數字到1206億所以有500億是用來移用稅計聲譽然後減少舉債的數額這都是融資財源\n好部長那我不跟你你不要浪費我的時間啦重點就是說包括以今年度為今年初你就說要幫台電這個還款一千億嘛撥補一千億給台電嘛那這兩天我從新聞上看到包括你們跟著行政院開記者會我要請問\n財務法已經通過了從中央拿3257億你們現在對外的說法就是說變成要從邊預算如果按照整個財務的分配是不是有從邊預算這個方式可以處理\n委員我沒有說要從編預算我只跟各位委員報告就是說114年度預算行政院編列完成以後已經送到行政院送到立法院大院也都在審查當中都在審查當中所以現在財化法的通過不管大家各政黨對於這件事情看法不一但是絕對不是只有從編預算這個途徑對不對\n還有其他的處理方法嗎我們現在財政部和主計總處我們目前在檢視這個財化法的修法的內容以後對中央施政的一個摯愛以及後續以什麼樣的方式來做救濟措施都和行政院在評估當中那我就提供你一個方法嘛\n你們現在對外的就是混淆視聽你們講的就是說只有從邊預算現在從邊預算這個對於明年度的預算造成的衝擊或者摯愛難行時間不夠你們現在的說法都是這樣所以我才講我剛為什麼一開始問稅計剩餘因為以台電撥補1000億你也是今年年初說要撥補台電1000億你用追加的預算方式來去撥補然後等到年終的時候稅計剩餘的時候再緩緩回來這是你對於台電1000億的撥補的處理方法跟模式嘛\n台電這件事情你是用這樣的處理模式先撥補等到隔年稅劑剩餘出來的時候先借錢就用追加預算來借這1000億等到稅劑剩餘出來的時候再來去做還款這是對台電的部分你是用這樣的處理模式\n當然對於這次財劃法的通過要多撥補3257億你一樣可以用追加減預算的方式先去電資撥給地方然後等明年稅計剩餘出來因為目前稅計剩餘有5000億\n出估有5000億即便沒有那麼多有4000億我們再來還款回來這是我建議的方式所以不要對外混淆視聽這是第一點我要說的模式沒有關係但我要提醒的就是說稅率剩餘我知道到年終才會出來\n但是目前3257億我們可以用追加減預算的形式處理等到年終我們稅計剩餘出來的時候再撥補回去這也是一種過去你也用過的模式用在台電身上我們過去就用這樣的模式\n不是第一次也不是首例這我要提醒你的地方所以我覺得這整件事情不要對外混淆視聽這對於我們現在3.2兆的總預算完全沒有關係你要做長照你要做運動獎金你要撥補什麼東西其實一點影響也沒有也跟什麼舉賽上線還款完全一點關係都沒有\n這是我要提醒部長的地方不要對外混淆視聽這是我今天對於財化法後續的處理會不會對於114年度造成的衝擊我要提出另外一個解決的方法要提醒你你比我還要懂因為你是專業不要在這邊混淆視聽那第二個因為時間剩下不多我部長我要問頂尊大長\n我也是針對事實說明我也是針對事實提供你一個過去你處理過的方法所以不會造成對於其他什麼長照今年3.2兆的預算已經在審而且不會影響到3.2兆預算也就是說明年5月我們要做長照我們要給軍公教的薪水我們要給學校的哪些東西完全一點關係都沒有這是我要強調的地方好第二點我要問的還是我們那個雲端發票的事情後續的處理\n這整件事情已經過了一個多月我覺得到目前為止我們還一直都沒有給一個完整的交代這整件事情分三大塊雖然當時我們在質詢的時候我們說這個案子已經送檢調再調查檢調的調查是屬於刑事責任的部分當然這整件事情我們還有行政責任跟民事的履約\n你們整件事情內控的部分應該有做過檢討對不對部長如果沒有做過檢討這不合理嗎對不對這件事情會發生其實我們都覺得很離譜媒體、國人都覺得很離譜怎麼會獎金設計出一個\n公視奇怪的模式\n還有包括立法院要監督我們想了解都還調不到資料你們對我們上次問過你們有沒有對我們立法院提供要求提供的資料你們也都沒有提供說明整件事情除了檢調的調查行事責任我們尊重我們不介入但是對於行政責任跟民事履約的部分你們也都沒有交代因為這個牽涉到我們跟產商之間到底價金要不要減少我們要不要終止契約我們要不要解除契約\n到目前為止完全沒有交代這不合理嘛\n部長已經一個多月過去了我尊重檢調的調查為前提我們內控的部分民事的履約民事的履約跟我們所謂的我們的刑事責任都沒有給立法院一個交代跟委員報告我們當時有因為當時要我們兩週內提出書面報告我們書面報告已經送了第一個就是我們對內部的人員的相關的調查\n已經都很清楚這些草案重點沒有我們要看的是當時事業內容是什麼要求的我們跟他們會議之間城市設計是我們要求他這樣設計還是廠商自己設計我們當時有講過第一個我們是為什麼要辦這個活動的目的很清楚有告訴廠商但是廠商在城市設計的邏輯上到底有沒有超過這樣的一個目的已經在檢調在調查至於民事的部分我們已經也向臺北地院提起民事的訴訟要求廠商就侵權行為做損害賠償這個部分都有做\n跟委員報告我們一直都有做沒有說重視這個事情我們絕不希望這個事情再重複發生所以這個都我們很嚴謹的在看待好部長那我昨天從媒體上看到說你們要求他道歉登報道歉有這件事情嗎對我們有提起民事訴訟對要求他道歉是不是我不知道這是哪一個偉大的律師\n教你們說請他登報道歉登報道歉這個是立法院我們立法院要追的還是他的刑事責任他的民事責任道歉這件事情在大法官的判決在112年大法官的判決裡面道歉這件事情是違憲的你知道嗎我們這個部分提起民事訴訟由法院裁判然後另外後續我們還會繼續的做追訴的部長我再問你\n你們要求他登報道歉這件事情對我來說我看起來是很可笑我不知道是哪一個這麼聰明的律師教你們說要道歉我照明事實上一定要追登報道歉這件事情如果是你們要求我覺得那個都不是立法院要的更何況這件事情是違憲的大法官判決是違憲為什麼我這麼說之前大法官有解釋說\n黑人要求那個陳建宗要求道歉的時候當時那個案件的時候要求道歉的時候憲法的判決就講說這個強制道歉是公開的違憲我們常常在你們常常在行政院常常在罵立法院或執政黨在罵立法院說在野黨是違憲你要求道歉這件事情現在已經沒有道歉這件事情而且直接被憲法解釋道歉是違憲的\n各位應該著重是契約問題而不是強制公開道歉道歉 我要提醒你你的律師哪一個聰明的律師叫你做違憲道歉這件事情思考清楚好 謝謝委員的指教 謝謝好 謝謝燕秀委員接著請伍麗華委員發言\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.868 --> 00:04.550\n謝謝主席,我是不是可以請部長,莊部長好,請莊部長委員長部長早安,我們今年已經到了年底剛聽了李昆城委員的發言其實每一個法案對於每一個修法的方向其實對於人民都是事關重大都有它重要的面向不是哪一個法案不重要每一個都非常的重要這是我必須要再次強調\n\n00:30.503 --> 00:45.609\n現在到了年底大部分稅收其實都已經收上來了我們今年度113年度目前的稅收我從媒體上看到已經大概超徵的部分已經到達5000億左右這個數字對不對?\n\n00:47.310 --> 00:53.053\n委員您講的5000億出估是全國,這裡面包含地方稅我時間有限,部長你直接回應我就好了,是不是差不多意思?差不多吧\n\n01:07.960 --> 01:26.490\n我們從之前我們都一直說不管是中央或地方特別是中央的部分我們以前都是超徵稅收所以我們也成立了一個稅收出估的專案小組你對於目前這個專案小組的進行作業還有每一年我們認就是稅收超徵的狀況你滿意嗎?\n\n01:28.525 --> 01:46.510\n我們是從推估113年的時候有才成立這個小組之前是沒有那這個部分我們已經強化這個我們看到每一年超增稅收的這個結果數字一年比一年高可見還是沒有達到它的成效就目前這樣看起來那到底我們要\n\n01:47.390 --> 02:08.432\n還要幾年我們才能夠達到應該有的準確度你不用跟我講增加多少,我要的是當時我們成立這個小組的目的是希望精準的,我不應該說精準,你有一定的誤差範圍\n\n02:10.120 --> 02:22.927\n能達到他的目的你不用跟我講你調整了多少你調整了20、30你那個預估數字差異太大還是沒有意義這不是你成立的目的嘛所以到底多久你才能夠達到他的精準度準確度\n\n02:24.228 --> 02:48.117\n這個部分因為除了我們在當時在估測的時候相關因素都考慮之外其實還有其他的因素是不能你無法預料的比如說113年的政交稅AI的一個風潮起來所以它的日均量達到4800億跟我們當時在編113年的時候我們的日均量是編3500多億來估算部長你說沒有辦法預料我要再一次提醒你喔\n\n02:48.957 --> 03:10.033\n你如果永遠都跟我講這個是沒辦法預料那個沒辦法預料這個就沒有辦法達到你當時成立這個單位的目的那我要再次提問部長這個不是我今天質詢的重點我們差增稅收的用途大部分都是用來減少舉債增加債務還本每一年都有對不對還有什麼用途過去還有什麼用途\n\n03:10.353 --> 03:11.014\n審議剩餘作為以後年度的融資財源\n\n03:27.571 --> 03:32.596\n作品後年度的融資財源比如說我們的有累計聲譽在編下一年度的時候比如說在編114年度的預算的時候我們之間的因為有一個gap就大概有一個數字到1206億所以有500億是用來移用稅計聲譽然後減少舉債的數額這都是融資財源\n\n03:48.550 --> 04:06.705\n好部長那我不跟你你不要浪費我的時間啦重點就是說包括以今年度為今年初你就說要幫台電這個還款一千億嘛撥補一千億給台電嘛那這兩天我從新聞上看到包括你們跟著行政院開記者會我要請問\n\n04:08.567 --> 04:25.465\n財務法已經通過了從中央拿3257億你們現在對外的說法就是說變成要從邊預算如果按照整個財務的分配是不是有從邊預算這個方式可以處理\n\n04:27.453 --> 04:49.532\n委員我沒有說要從編預算我只跟各位委員報告就是說114年度預算行政院編列完成以後已經送到行政院送到立法院大院也都在審查當中都在審查當中所以現在財化法的通過不管大家各政黨對於這件事情看法不一但是絕對不是只有從編預算這個途徑對不對\n\n04:53.445 --> 05:10.363\n還有其他的處理方法嗎我們現在財政部和主計總處我們目前在檢視這個財化法的修法的內容以後對中央施政的一個摯愛以及後續以什麼樣的方式來做救濟措施都和行政院在評估當中那我就提供你一個方法嘛\n\n05:11.164 --> 05:19.009\n你們現在對外的就是混淆視聽你們講的就是說只有從邊預算現在從邊預算這個對於明年度的預算造成的衝擊或者摯愛難行時間不夠你們現在的說法都是這樣所以我才講我剛為什麼一開始問稅計剩餘因為以台電撥補1000億你也是今年年初說要撥補台電1000億你用追加的預算方式來去撥補然後等到年終的時候稅計剩餘的時候再緩緩回來這是你對於台電1000億的撥補的處理方法跟模式嘛\n\n05:41.224 --> 05:43.946\n台電這件事情你是用這樣的處理模式先撥補等到隔年稅劑剩餘出來的時候先借錢就用追加預算來借這1000億等到稅劑剩餘出來的時候再來去做還款這是對台電的部分你是用這樣的處理模式\n\n05:57.655 --> 06:10.996\n當然對於這次財劃法的通過要多撥補3257億你一樣可以用追加減預算的方式先去電資撥給地方然後等明年稅計剩餘出來因為目前稅計剩餘有5000億\n\n06:12.799 --> 06:25.330\n出估有5000億即便沒有那麼多有4000億我們再來還款回來這是我建議的方式所以不要對外混淆視聽這是第一點我要說的模式沒有關係但我要提醒的就是說稅率剩餘我知道到年終才會出來\n\n06:32.276 --> 06:50.464\n但是目前3257億我們可以用追加減預算的形式處理等到年終我們稅計剩餘出來的時候再撥補回去這也是一種過去你也用過的模式用在台電身上我們過去就用這樣的模式\n\n06:51.204 --> 06:59.269\n不是第一次也不是首例這我要提醒你的地方所以我覺得這整件事情不要對外混淆視聽這對於我們現在3.2兆的總預算完全沒有關係你要做長照你要做運動獎金你要撥補什麼東西其實一點影響也沒有也跟什麼舉賽上線還款完全一點關係都沒有\n\n07:17.299 --> 07:34.468\n這是我要提醒部長的地方不要對外混淆視聽這是我今天對於財化法後續的處理會不會對於114年度造成的衝擊我要提出另外一個解決的方法要提醒你你比我還要懂因為你是專業不要在這邊混淆視聽那第二個因為時間剩下不多我部長我要問頂尊大長\n\n07:41.852 --> 08:10.004\n我也是針對事實說明我也是針對事實提供你一個過去你處理過的方法所以不會造成對於其他什麼長照今年3.2兆的預算已經在審而且不會影響到3.2兆預算也就是說明年5月我們要做長照我們要給軍公教的薪水我們要給學校的哪些東西完全一點關係都沒有這是我要強調的地方好第二點我要問的還是我們那個雲端發票的事情後續的處理\n\n08:11.064 --> 08:33.331\n這整件事情已經過了一個多月我覺得到目前為止我們還一直都沒有給一個完整的交代這整件事情分三大塊雖然當時我們在質詢的時候我們說這個案子已經送檢調再調查檢調的調查是屬於刑事責任的部分當然這整件事情我們還有行政責任跟民事的履約\n\n08:34.651 --> 08:40.559\n你們整件事情內控的部分應該有做過檢討對不對部長如果沒有做過檢討這不合理嗎對不對這件事情會發生其實我們都覺得很離譜媒體、國人都覺得很離譜怎麼會獎金設計出一個\n\n08:51.595 --> 08:53.357\n公視奇怪的模式\n\n09:07.948 --> 09:35.404\n還有包括立法院要監督我們想了解都還調不到資料你們對我們上次問過你們有沒有對我們立法院提供要求提供的資料你們也都沒有提供說明整件事情除了檢調的調查行事責任我們尊重我們不介入但是對於行政責任跟民事履約的部分你們也都沒有交代因為這個牽涉到我們跟產商之間到底價金要不要減少我們要不要終止契約我們要不要解除契約\n\n09:36.585 --> 09:40.373\n到目前為止完全沒有交代這不合理嘛\n\n09:41.724 --> 10:06.137\n部長已經一個多月過去了我尊重檢調的調查為前提我們內控的部分民事的履約民事的履約跟我們所謂的我們的刑事責任都沒有給立法院一個交代跟委員報告我們當時有因為當時要我們兩週內提出書面報告我們書面報告已經送了第一個就是我們對內部的人員的相關的調查\n\n10:07.518 --> 10:35.549\n已經都很清楚這些草案重點沒有我們要看的是當時事業內容是什麼要求的我們跟他們會議之間城市設計是我們要求他這樣設計還是廠商自己設計我們當時有講過第一個我們是為什麼要辦這個活動的目的很清楚有告訴廠商但是廠商在城市設計的邏輯上到底有沒有超過這樣的一個目的已經在檢調在調查至於民事的部分我們已經也向臺北地院提起民事的訴訟要求廠商就侵權行為做損害賠償這個部分都有做\n\n10:36.289 --> 10:56.491\n跟委員報告我們一直都有做沒有說重視這個事情我們絕不希望這個事情再重複發生所以這個都我們很嚴謹的在看待好部長那我昨天從媒體上看到說你們要求他道歉登報道歉有這件事情嗎對我們有提起民事訴訟對要求他道歉是不是我不知道這是哪一個偉大的律師\n\n10:58.072 --> 11:23.578\n教你們說請他登報道歉登報道歉這個是立法院我們立法院要追的還是他的刑事責任他的民事責任道歉這件事情在大法官的判決在112年大法官的判決裡面道歉這件事情是違憲的你知道嗎我們這個部分提起民事訴訟由法院裁判然後另外後續我們還會繼續的做追訴的部長我再問你\n\n11:25.658 --> 11:46.029\n你們要求他登報道歉這件事情對我來說我看起來是很可笑我不知道是哪一個這麼聰明的律師教你們說要道歉我照明事實上一定要追登報道歉這件事情如果是你們要求我覺得那個都不是立法院要的更何況這件事情是違憲的大法官判決是違憲為什麼我這麼說之前大法官有解釋說\n\n11:47.009 --> 12:12.008\n黑人要求那個陳建宗要求道歉的時候當時那個案件的時候要求道歉的時候憲法的判決就講說這個強制道歉是公開的違憲我們常常在你們常常在行政院常常在罵立法院或執政黨在罵立法院說在野黨是違憲你要求道歉這件事情現在已經沒有道歉這件事情而且直接被憲法解釋道歉是違憲的\n\n12:14.636 --> 12:33.071\n各位應該著重是契約問題而不是強制公開道歉道歉我要提醒你你的律師哪一個聰明的律師叫你做違憲道歉這件事情思考清楚好謝謝委員的指教謝謝好謝謝燕秀委員接著請伍麗華委員發言\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.868,"end":4.55,"text":"謝謝主席,我是不是可以請部長,莊部長好,請莊部長委員長部長早安,我們今年已經到了年底剛聽了李昆城委員的發言其實每一個法案對於每一個修法的方向其實對於人民都是事關重大都有它重要的面向不是哪一個法案不重要每一個都非常的重要這是我必須要再次強調"},{"start":30.503,"end":45.609,"text":"現在到了年底大部分稅收其實都已經收上來了我們今年度113年度目前的稅收我從媒體上看到已經大概超徵的部分已經到達5000億左右這個數字對不對?"},{"start":47.31,"end":53.053,"text":"委員您講的5000億出估是全國,這裡面包含地方稅我時間有限,部長你直接回應我就好了,是不是差不多意思?差不多吧"},{"start":67.96,"end":86.49,"text":"我們從之前我們都一直說不管是中央或地方特別是中央的部分我們以前都是超徵稅收所以我們也成立了一個稅收出估的專案小組你對於目前這個專案小組的進行作業還有每一年我們認就是稅收超徵的狀況你滿意嗎?"},{"start":88.525,"end":106.51,"text":"我們是從推估113年的時候有才成立這個小組之前是沒有那這個部分我們已經強化這個我們看到每一年超增稅收的這個結果數字一年比一年高可見還是沒有達到它的成效就目前這樣看起來那到底我們要"},{"start":107.39,"end":128.432,"text":"還要幾年我們才能夠達到應該有的準確度你不用跟我講增加多少,我要的是當時我們成立這個小組的目的是希望精準的,我不應該說精準,你有一定的誤差範圍"},{"start":130.12,"end":142.927,"text":"能達到他的目的你不用跟我講你調整了多少你調整了20、30你那個預估數字差異太大還是沒有意義這不是你成立的目的嘛所以到底多久你才能夠達到他的精準度準確度"},{"start":144.228,"end":168.117,"text":"這個部分因為除了我們在當時在估測的時候相關因素都考慮之外其實還有其他的因素是不能你無法預料的比如說113年的政交稅AI的一個風潮起來所以它的日均量達到4800億跟我們當時在編113年的時候我們的日均量是編3500多億來估算部長你說沒有辦法預料我要再一次提醒你喔"},{"start":168.957,"end":190.033,"text":"你如果永遠都跟我講這個是沒辦法預料那個沒辦法預料這個就沒有辦法達到你當時成立這個單位的目的那我要再次提問部長這個不是我今天質詢的重點我們差增稅收的用途大部分都是用來減少舉債增加債務還本每一年都有對不對還有什麼用途過去還有什麼用途"},{"start":190.353,"end":191.014,"text":"審議剩餘作為以後年度的融資財源"},{"start":207.571,"end":212.596,"text":"作品後年度的融資財源比如說我們的有累計聲譽在編下一年度的時候比如說在編114年度的預算的時候我們之間的因為有一個gap就大概有一個數字到1206億所以有500億是用來移用稅計聲譽然後減少舉債的數額這都是融資財源"},{"start":228.55,"end":246.705,"text":"好部長那我不跟你你不要浪費我的時間啦重點就是說包括以今年度為今年初你就說要幫台電這個還款一千億嘛撥補一千億給台電嘛那這兩天我從新聞上看到包括你們跟著行政院開記者會我要請問"},{"start":248.567,"end":265.465,"text":"財務法已經通過了從中央拿3257億你們現在對外的說法就是說變成要從邊預算如果按照整個財務的分配是不是有從邊預算這個方式可以處理"},{"start":267.453,"end":289.532,"text":"委員我沒有說要從編預算我只跟各位委員報告就是說114年度預算行政院編列完成以後已經送到行政院送到立法院大院也都在審查當中都在審查當中所以現在財化法的通過不管大家各政黨對於這件事情看法不一但是絕對不是只有從編預算這個途徑對不對"},{"start":293.445,"end":310.363,"text":"還有其他的處理方法嗎我們現在財政部和主計總處我們目前在檢視這個財化法的修法的內容以後對中央施政的一個摯愛以及後續以什麼樣的方式來做救濟措施都和行政院在評估當中那我就提供你一個方法嘛"},{"start":311.164,"end":319.009,"text":"你們現在對外的就是混淆視聽你們講的就是說只有從邊預算現在從邊預算這個對於明年度的預算造成的衝擊或者摯愛難行時間不夠你們現在的說法都是這樣所以我才講我剛為什麼一開始問稅計剩餘因為以台電撥補1000億你也是今年年初說要撥補台電1000億你用追加的預算方式來去撥補然後等到年終的時候稅計剩餘的時候再緩緩回來這是你對於台電1000億的撥補的處理方法跟模式嘛"},{"start":341.224,"end":343.946,"text":"台電這件事情你是用這樣的處理模式先撥補等到隔年稅劑剩餘出來的時候先借錢就用追加預算來借這1000億等到稅劑剩餘出來的時候再來去做還款這是對台電的部分你是用這樣的處理模式"},{"start":357.655,"end":370.996,"text":"當然對於這次財劃法的通過要多撥補3257億你一樣可以用追加減預算的方式先去電資撥給地方然後等明年稅計剩餘出來因為目前稅計剩餘有5000億"},{"start":372.799,"end":385.33,"text":"出估有5000億即便沒有那麼多有4000億我們再來還款回來這是我建議的方式所以不要對外混淆視聽這是第一點我要說的模式沒有關係但我要提醒的就是說稅率剩餘我知道到年終才會出來"},{"start":392.276,"end":410.464,"text":"但是目前3257億我們可以用追加減預算的形式處理等到年終我們稅計剩餘出來的時候再撥補回去這也是一種過去你也用過的模式用在台電身上我們過去就用這樣的模式"},{"start":411.204,"end":419.269,"text":"不是第一次也不是首例這我要提醒你的地方所以我覺得這整件事情不要對外混淆視聽這對於我們現在3.2兆的總預算完全沒有關係你要做長照你要做運動獎金你要撥補什麼東西其實一點影響也沒有也跟什麼舉賽上線還款完全一點關係都沒有"},{"start":437.299,"end":454.468,"text":"這是我要提醒部長的地方不要對外混淆視聽這是我今天對於財化法後續的處理會不會對於114年度造成的衝擊我要提出另外一個解決的方法要提醒你你比我還要懂因為你是專業不要在這邊混淆視聽那第二個因為時間剩下不多我部長我要問頂尊大長"},{"start":461.852,"end":490.004,"text":"我也是針對事實說明我也是針對事實提供你一個過去你處理過的方法所以不會造成對於其他什麼長照今年3.2兆的預算已經在審而且不會影響到3.2兆預算也就是說明年5月我們要做長照我們要給軍公教的薪水我們要給學校的哪些東西完全一點關係都沒有這是我要強調的地方好第二點我要問的還是我們那個雲端發票的事情後續的處理"},{"start":491.064,"end":513.331,"text":"這整件事情已經過了一個多月我覺得到目前為止我們還一直都沒有給一個完整的交代這整件事情分三大塊雖然當時我們在質詢的時候我們說這個案子已經送檢調再調查檢調的調查是屬於刑事責任的部分當然這整件事情我們還有行政責任跟民事的履約"},{"start":514.651,"end":520.559,"text":"你們整件事情內控的部分應該有做過檢討對不對部長如果沒有做過檢討這不合理嗎對不對這件事情會發生其實我們都覺得很離譜媒體、國人都覺得很離譜怎麼會獎金設計出一個"},{"start":531.595,"end":533.357,"text":"公視奇怪的模式"},{"start":547.948,"end":575.404,"text":"還有包括立法院要監督我們想了解都還調不到資料你們對我們上次問過你們有沒有對我們立法院提供要求提供的資料你們也都沒有提供說明整件事情除了檢調的調查行事責任我們尊重我們不介入但是對於行政責任跟民事履約的部分你們也都沒有交代因為這個牽涉到我們跟產商之間到底價金要不要減少我們要不要終止契約我們要不要解除契約"},{"start":576.585,"end":580.373,"text":"到目前為止完全沒有交代這不合理嘛"},{"start":581.724,"end":606.137,"text":"部長已經一個多月過去了我尊重檢調的調查為前提我們內控的部分民事的履約民事的履約跟我們所謂的我們的刑事責任都沒有給立法院一個交代跟委員報告我們當時有因為當時要我們兩週內提出書面報告我們書面報告已經送了第一個就是我們對內部的人員的相關的調查"},{"start":607.518,"end":635.549,"text":"已經都很清楚這些草案重點沒有我們要看的是當時事業內容是什麼要求的我們跟他們會議之間城市設計是我們要求他這樣設計還是廠商自己設計我們當時有講過第一個我們是為什麼要辦這個活動的目的很清楚有告訴廠商但是廠商在城市設計的邏輯上到底有沒有超過這樣的一個目的已經在檢調在調查至於民事的部分我們已經也向臺北地院提起民事的訴訟要求廠商就侵權行為做損害賠償這個部分都有做"},{"start":636.289,"end":656.491,"text":"跟委員報告我們一直都有做沒有說重視這個事情我們絕不希望這個事情再重複發生所以這個都我們很嚴謹的在看待好部長那我昨天從媒體上看到說你們要求他道歉登報道歉有這件事情嗎對我們有提起民事訴訟對要求他道歉是不是我不知道這是哪一個偉大的律師"},{"start":658.072,"end":683.578,"text":"教你們說請他登報道歉登報道歉這個是立法院我們立法院要追的還是他的刑事責任他的民事責任道歉這件事情在大法官的判決在112年大法官的判決裡面道歉這件事情是違憲的你知道嗎我們這個部分提起民事訴訟由法院裁判然後另外後續我們還會繼續的做追訴的部長我再問你"},{"start":685.658,"end":706.029,"text":"你們要求他登報道歉這件事情對我來說我看起來是很可笑我不知道是哪一個這麼聰明的律師教你們說要道歉我照明事實上一定要追登報道歉這件事情如果是你們要求我覺得那個都不是立法院要的更何況這件事情是違憲的大法官判決是違憲為什麼我這麼說之前大法官有解釋說"},{"start":707.009,"end":732.008,"text":"黑人要求那個陳建宗要求道歉的時候當時那個案件的時候要求道歉的時候憲法的判決就講說這個強制道歉是公開的違憲我們常常在你們常常在行政院常常在罵立法院或執政黨在罵立法院說在野黨是違憲你要求道歉這件事情現在已經沒有道歉這件事情而且直接被憲法解釋道歉是違憲的"},{"start":734.636,"end":753.071,"text":"各位應該著重是契約問題而不是強制公開道歉道歉 我要提醒你你的律師哪一個聰明的律師叫你做違憲道歉這件事情思考清楚好 謝謝委員的指教 謝謝好 謝謝燕秀委員接著請伍麗華委員發言"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":538,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時46分）謝謝主席，請莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員早。"],["李委員彥秀：部長早安。今年已經到年底了，剛剛聽了李坤城委員的發言，其實每個法案的修法方向對人民都是事關重大，都有它重要的面向，不是哪一個法案不重要，每一個都非常重要，這是我必須要再次強調的。","另外，現在到了年底，大部分稅收其實都已經徵收了，今（113）年度到目前的稅收，我從媒體上看到，粗估超徵已經到達5,000億左右，這個數字對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員您講的5,000億粗估是全國的，這裡面還包含地方稅……"],["李委員彥秀：對，全國，有地方跟中央，差不多5,000億，這個數字有沒有錯？"],["莊部長翠雲：中央……"],["李委員彥秀：我時間有限，部長，你直接回應我就好了，是不是差不多……"],["莊部長翠雲：全國的部分，目前來說，推估大概最高5,000億，但不見得一定到達5,000億，中央的部分……"],["李委員彥秀：差不多嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：會超過預算數大概從3,500億到……"],["李委員彥秀：好，之前我們就一直在說，不管中央或地方，特別是中央的部分，以前都是超徵稅收，所以我們才成立了稅收粗估專案小組，部長對於目前這個專案小組的進行作業，還有每一年我們仍舊是稅收超徵的狀況，你滿意嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們是從推估113年的時候才成立這個小組，之前沒有，這個部分我們已經強化……"],["李委員彥秀：我們看每一年超徵稅收的結果，數字是一年比一年高，可見還是沒有達到成效，就目前這樣看起來，到底我們還要幾年才能夠達到應該有的準確度？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們114年已經調整增加稅課收入將近百分之十九點多……"],["李委員彥秀：你不用跟我講增加多少，當時我們成立這個小組的目的是希望精準的……我不應該說精準，而是有一定的誤差範圍，希望能夠達到這個目的，你不用跟我講你們調整多少，你調整20%、30%，如果那個預估數值差異太大，還是沒有意義，這不是成立這個小組的目的嘛！所以到底多久才能夠達到它的精準度、準確度？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分，除了我們在估測當時考慮相關因素之外，其實還有其他的因素是無法預料的，比如說113年的證交稅，AI的風潮一起來，它的日均量就達到4,800億，我們當時編113年的時候，日均量是編三千五百多億估算，這是有一個差距的……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，你說沒有辦法預料，我要再次提醒你，你如果永遠都跟我講這個沒辦法預料、那個沒辦法預料，那就沒有辦法達到你們當時成立這個單位的目的，我要再次……"],["莊部長翠雲：這個單位成立是有它的意義的。"],["李委員彥秀：我要請問部長，因為這不是我今天質詢的重點，超徵稅收的用途，大部分都是用來減少舉債、增加債務還本，每一年都有，對不對？還有什麼用途？過去還有什麼用途？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個就是增加債務還本，我們就是不舉債嘛，就是原來需要舉債……"],["李委員彥秀：減少舉債、增加債務的還本對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：增加債務還本，對，就是這樣。"],["李委員彥秀：還有什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：然後賸餘的就會到歲計賸餘去……"],["李委員彥秀：歲計賸餘拿來做什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：累計賸餘做為以後年度的融資財源。"],["李委員彥秀：譬如什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：譬如我們有累計賸餘，在編下一年度的時候……譬如在編114年度預算的時候，之間因為有一個gap，數字大概是1,206億，所以有500億是移用歲計賸餘，然後減少舉債的數額，這都是融資財源。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，你不要浪費我的時間了，重點在於今年初你就說要幫台電還款1,000億要撥補1,000億給台電，這兩天我從新聞上看到，包括你們跟行政院開記者會，我要請問，財劃法已經通過了，從中央拿3,257億，你們現在對外的說法是變成要重編預算，如果按照整個財務的分配，是不是只有重編預算這個方式可以處理？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，我沒有說要重編預算，我只跟各位委員報告，114年度的預算行政院編列完成以後，已經送到立法院，大院也都在審查當中。"],["李委員彥秀：所以現在財劃法的通過，即使各政黨對於這件事情看法不一，但是絕對不是只有重編預算這個途徑對不對？還有其他的處理方法嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：現在財政部和主計總處正在檢視財劃法的修法內容對於中央施政的窒礙，以及後續以什麼樣的方式來做救濟措施，都和行政院在評估當中。"],["李委員彥秀：那我就提供你一個方法，你們現在對外都在混淆視聽，你們講的就是說只能重編預算、現在重編預算對於明年度預算造成的衝擊，會有窒礙難行、時間不夠，你們現在的說法都是這樣，我為什麼剛剛一開始就問歲計賸餘？因為以台電撥補1,000億來講，你也是今年年初說要撥補台電1,000億，你用追加預算的方式去撥補，然後等到年終有歲計賸餘的時候再還款回來，這是你對於撥補台電1,000億的處理方法跟模式，對不對？我想台電這件事情你是用這樣的處理模式，先撥補，等到隔年歲計賸餘出來的時候再還款，也就是先借錢，就用追加預算來借這1,000億，等到歲計賸餘出來的時候再去還款，針對台電的部分你是用這樣的處理模式。當然這一次財劃法通過要多撥補3,257億，你一樣可以用追加減預算的方式，先墊支撥給地方，然後等明年歲計賸餘出來，因為目前歲計賸餘粗估有5,000，即便沒有那麼多，但是也有4,000億，屆時再還款回來，這是我建議的方式，所以不要對外混淆視聽，這是第一點我要說的模式。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，歲計賸餘的數額主計總處那邊有更清楚的掌握……"],["李委員彥秀：沒有關係，我要提醒的是，我知道歲計賸餘到年終才會出來，但是目前3,257億我們可以用追加減預算的形式處理，等到年終歲計賸餘出來的時候再撥補回去，這是過去你也用過的模式，用在台電身上，過去你們就是用這樣的模式，不是第一次，也不是首例，這是我要提醒你的地方。我覺得這整件事情不要對外混淆視聽，這跟現在3.2兆的總預算完全沒有關係，你要做長照、你要做運動獎金、你要撥補什麼東西，其實一點影響也沒有，也跟舉債上限、還款完全一點關係都沒有，這是我要提醒部長的地方，不要對外混淆視聽，關於財劃法後續的處理會不會對於114年度造成衝擊，今天我要提出另外一個解決的方法，我要提醒你，其實你比我還要懂，因為你是專業的，不要在這邊混淆視聽。","第二個，因為時間剩下不多，我要問雲端……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們沒有混淆視聽，我們是就事實說明。"],["李委員彥秀：我也是針對事實說明，我也是針對事實提供一個過去你處理過的方法，所以不會對長照等等造成影響，而且不會影響到3.2兆的預算，今年3.2兆的預算已經在審。也就是說，明年無論我們要做長照、要給軍公教的薪水、要給學校的哪些東西，完全一點關係都沒有，這是我要強調的地方。","第二點，我要問的還是雲端發票後續的處理，這整件事情已經過了一個多月，我覺得到目前為止，你們還是一直都沒有給一個完整的交代。這整件事情分三大塊，雖然當時我們在質詢的時候，你們說這個案子已經送檢調在調查，檢調調查是屬於刑事責任的部分，當然這整件事情還有行政責任跟民事的履約，你們針對內控的部分應該有做過檢討，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，如果沒有做過檢討就不合理嘛，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["李委員彥秀：這件事情會發生，其實我們都覺得很離譜，包括媒體和國人都覺得很離譜，怎麼會針對獎金設計出一個公式是非常奇怪的模式？到底是行政單位要求他做這樣子的程式設計？還是他自己時間很多、想很多──廠商自己想出來這個模式？到現在外界還有包括立法院要監督，我們想了解都還調不到資料，我們上次問過，針對立法委員要求提供的資料，你們也都沒有提供說明。針對整件事情，檢調的調查、刑事責任的部分我們尊重、我們不介入，但是對於行政責任跟民事履約的部分，你們也都沒有交代，因為這個牽涉到你們跟廠商之間到底價金要不要減少、要不要終止契約、要不要解除契約，到目前為止完全沒有交代，這不合理嘛！部長，已經一個多月過去了，我尊重以檢調的調查為前提，但是針對內控的部分，包括民事的履約及所謂的行政責任，都沒有給立法院一個交代耶！"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，因為當時要我們兩週內提出書面報告，我們的書面報告已經送了，第一個就是我們對內部人員相關的調查已經都很清楚，這些重複中獎的都沒有。第二個……"],["李委員彥秀：我們要看的是當時契約內容是怎麼要求的，在跟他們的會議之間，程式設計是你們要求他這樣設計，還是廠商自己設計？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們當時有講過，第一個，我們為什麼要辦這個活動的目的很清楚，而且有告訴廠商，但是廠商在程式設計的邏輯上到底有沒有超過這樣的一個目的，檢調已經在調查。至於民事的部分，我們也已經向臺北地院提起民事訴訟，要求廠商就侵權行為做損害賠償，這個部分都有做。跟委員報告，我們一直都有做，沒有說不重視這件事情，我們絕不希望這個事情再重複發生，所以這些東西我們很嚴謹地在看待，因為……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，我前兩天從媒體上看到你們要求他登報道歉，有這件事情嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，我們有提起民事訴訟……"],["李委員彥秀：要求他道歉是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：有要求提起民事訴訟……"],["李委員彥秀：我不知道是哪一個偉大的律師教你們說請他登報道歉？登報道歉這個是立法院……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們後續還是會……"],["李委員彥秀：立法院要追的還是他的民事責任，在大法官112年的判決裡面，道歉這件事情是違憲的，你知道嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們提起民事訴訟，由法院裁判，另外後續我們還會繼續追訴。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，我再問你，你們要求他登報道歉這件事情，對我來說，我看起來是覺得很可笑，我不知道是哪一個這麼聰明的律師教你們說要他道歉。我知道民事責任一定要追，登報道歉這件事情如果是你們要求的，我覺得那都不是立法院要的，更何況這件事情在大法官判決是違憲，為什麼我這麼說？之前大法官有解釋「黑人」陳建州當時針對那個案件要求道歉的時候，憲法的判決是說強制道歉是公開的違憲，行政院常常在罵立法院或是執政黨在罵立法院的在野黨是違憲，你要求道歉的這件事情，已經直接被司法院解釋道歉是違憲的，我們應該著重的是契約問題，而不是強制公開道歉。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們後續會……"],["李委員彥秀：我要提醒你，究竟是哪一個聰明的律師叫你做違憲來要求道歉這件事情，請你思考清楚。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員的指教。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員。接著請伍麗華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":106,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-13","speakers":["賴惠員","賴士葆","陳菁徽","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","顏寬恒","李坤城","李彥秀","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","黃健豪","黃珊珊","羅明才","張啓楷","陳玉珍","王鴻薇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-25"],"gazette_id":"1141203","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1141203_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「菸酒稅法」 10 案：( 一) 行政院函請審議、本院委員李柏毅等 16 人、委員賴惠員等16\n人、委員郭國文等 18 人、委員吳琪銘等 16 人分別擬具「菸酒稅法部分條文修正草案」等 5 案、\n(二)本院委員徐巧芯等29人擬具「菸酒稅法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴士葆等\n27人、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人、委員張智倫等18人分別擬具「菸酒稅法第十九\n條及第二十一條條文修正草案」等3案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「菸酒稅法第十九條及\n第二十三條條文修正草案」案；二、審查「使用牌照稅法」8案：(一) 行政院函請審議、本院委\n員賴士葆等24人、委員陳菁徽等17人、委員張智倫等18人、委員陳素月等19人、委員賴惠員等17\n人、委員郭國文等16人分別擬具「使用牌照稅法第二十九條、第三十條及第三十一條條文修正草\n案」等7案、(二) 本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「使用牌照稅法第三十條及第三十一條條文修正草\n案」案；三、審查行政院函請審議、本院委員賴士葆等21人、委員林楚茵等18人、委員徐巧芯等\n27人、委員賴惠員等17人、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「土地稅法第五十四條條文修正草案」等\n6案；四、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分，關於財政部主管中國\n輸出入銀行、臺灣金融控股股份有限公司（含臺灣銀行股份有限公司、臺銀人壽保險股份有限公\n司、臺銀綜合證券股份有限公司）（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1141203_00001"}}}