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\"路\", \"start\": 821.632, \"end\": 822.653, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"徑\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 822.653, \"end\": 822.973, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 822.973, \"end\": 823.073, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 823.073, \"end\": 823.554, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 823.554, \"end\": 823.854, \"score\": 0.671}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 823.854, \"end\": 824.114, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 824.114, \"end\": 824.234, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 824.234, \"end\": 824.354, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 824.354, \"end\": 824.434, \"score\": 0.649}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 824.434, \"end\": 824.534, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 824.534, \"end\": 824.715, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"止\", \"start\": 824.715, \"end\": 825.355, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, 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\"end\": 891.276, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 907.55, \"end\": 926.484, \"text\": \"個人是非常的認同,尤其是兩岸的交流必須要互惠、對等,也必須要健康有序。潘秘書長呢?一樣。一樣,很好。那我們來看一下。馬英九基金會可以邀請終生來台交流,他的基金的捐贈來源為何?我們看到112年度他的捐贈收入3000,超過3000萬。113年度,這個可能日期反過來了,日期呢?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 907.55, \"end\": 907.71, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 907.71, \"end\": 907.83, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 907.83, \"end\": 907.95, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 907.95, \"end\": 908.11, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 908.11, \"end\": 908.41, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 908.41, \"end\": 908.63, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"尤\", \"start\": 908.63, \"end\": 908.811, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 908.811, \"end\": 908.951, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 908.951, \"end\": 909.251, \"score\": 0.878}, 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00:00:55,840\n對。是不是所有縣市內的議員會跟政府同座?對,是所有全國最多鄉鎮市的縣市。我印象中,那時候我們也是老館長你之前有這個我們的州卿館長,我們的蘇嘉磚館長,還有蘇貞雄館長。我記得我們老館長在說,全台灣的縣市內,鄉鎮同座是邊東關33鄉鎮。對。他說一句話叫做嘴硬的歷史背。這是什麼意思?\n\n4\n00:01:17,064 --> 00:01:27,227\n意思是說一個老大人,還很小的孩子,還很辛苦,你作為冰凍管理員有沒有這種感覺?當然啦,一個小孩五、四、八,這個才一、二、三五、四、八,真的多早啦是,冰凍管理的財政不好,我們的鄉庭經驗一樣,冰凍管理要照顧33鄉庭,你作為管理員覺得財政實在很辛苦,沒錯齁?沒錯但是現在最近的這個財政違法,財政修律技術的違法,有人在講一句話給我加,他說呢\n\n5\n00:01:46,685 --> 00:01:50,853\n攤是攤塞騎、騎是騎阿爹。你覺得這是什麼意思?\n\n6\n00:01:51,874 --> 00:02:03,343\n不是啦,只有一個空的一個切出來這一大塊的餅但沒有負任何的這個責任譬如說阿嬸是善阿爹吃就是這樣就意思說我們前陣子阿伯阿嬤孩子出去吃頭肉啦炭的都做收費啦但是人家帶出來啦像這個汽車台款留不留在家有這種情形嗎是啊所以說炭的是炭塞車,吃的是吃阿爹啦\n\n7\n00:02:21,789 --> 00:02:48,577\n目前我們的財政事務委員會有分兩條嘛,一條通常分配款,這條給地方政府委員會給你判用途?欸絕對有用途啊。沒有啦,這條通常分配款是財政事務委員會的嘛。是是是,通常分配款。我們想是給你做收費嘛。對對對。但是另外一條介紹叫一般補助款嘛。是。一般補助款有一定用途嗎?一定有用途。有嘛齁,要老師的薪水、要副警察的薪水、要做什麼事都有機名嘛。是是是。\n\n8\n00:02:50,097 --> 00:02:54,118\n啊為什麼中央要給地方政府一半補助款?是不是像平等官?我們的財政修理還欠?所以呢,我們很多項目的開銷要中央替我們打?是,基本支出及財稅的收入不足的部分嘛。是,好。所以呢,我們知道,這次財政修織委員會他很嚴重的一個問題,不是\n\n9\n00:03:12,543 --> 00:03:21,474\n中央及地方的分配,不然是各縣市分配不公平,中央及地方30條他說什麼?他說未來對地方的一般部署案都不能寫,意思就是說收費很容易,但是原來中央替你出的開銷都繼續打,你覺得中央及會不會陷阱?\n\n10\n00:03:30,706 --> 00:03:34,269\n這絕對不可能,因為稅率來往不太多,而且現在一直開,毫無止境,沒有準確開支,而且用途如果是用在原來要負擔的義務責任上,那倒還可以,但如果不是用在原來的義務跟責任上所以這個法律水平這樣規定,但是很多我們的民眾,我們南部有地域的市長就說,喔,這是賺是賺誰騎啦\n\n11\n00:03:55,989 --> 00:03:58,531\n總統府主管：立法院第11屆第22期司法及法制委員會第22次總統府主管．收件及法制委員會凍結項目1案。\n\n12\n00:04:19,383 --> 00:04:33,052\n從過去一、二年給地方政府大概五千多億現在到今年已經到一百多億所以秘書長這是你過去老官你的身份你現在是中方秘書長但是第二項我來請教你做過我們的立法院的委員你是在2005年至2006年\n\n13\n00:04:40,938 --> 00:05:06,039\n這兩任你是不是經歷過陳水扁總統跟馬英九總統對我在陳前總統跟馬英九總統那你還記得當時陳總統的時候民進黨是嘲笑野大我們那時候只有幾席只有27席加上無黨籍無黨籍的3席不算我們的是不是那時候馬英九總統那時候提名大法官有你記得那時候馬英九提名大法官的時候有沒有民進黨有沒有支持\n\n14\n00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:31,988\n呃民進黨好像那次是沒有進去投票的樣子因為27期根本起不了作用是所以那時候沒有投票好那然而呢在陳水扁的時候提名的大法官民進黨只有27期對不對那陳總統提名的大法官有沒有通過呃好像提名了兩次嘛都有通過嘛那你覺得27期可以通過嗎是不是有在野黨支持才能通過\n\n15\n00:05:34,193 --> 00:05:49,064\n對所以說嘛本來大法官的提名總統提名的時候就衡量國會的席次態勢那像嘲笑野大總統的提名當中就包含各種多元的不同的立場的希望能夠得到在議場支持你覺得合理嗎\n\n16\n00:05:50,428 --> 00:06:06,585\n當然但是呢當馬英九上台之後呢他那時候國民黨掌握81席單獨過半所以那時候這一黨非常老人數非常少就沒有進去投票一樣過對不對對但是你知道嗎在馬英九提名的大法官當中有沒有不足81票的\n\n17\n00:06:07,403 --> 00:06:30,592\n有有嘛表示連馬英九他當總統的時候他提名的大法官他掌握的國的絕對多數一樣有他自己的本黨的立法委員不買單不投票嘛是不是這樣接下來我們來看到2010年的時候我們也看到了賴浩敏跟蘇永青的得票少於國民黨的票而且呢民進黨是有投反對票是不是這樣子\n\n18\n00:06:31,972 --> 00:06:56,763\n好像印象中但是到了2014年2011年的時候呢馬英九再度提名的時候民進黨沒有進去投反對票但是國民黨一樣跑票那你要知道喔那到了蔡英文當總統的時候第9屆的時候民進黨絕對多數國民黨抵制不投票但是民進黨過半嘛過了嘛到了第10屆您覺得\n\n19\n00:06:58,584 --> 00:07:18,477\n蔡英文總統再度提名有兩次的時候你知道那時候大法官國民黨有進來投票嗎那個時候我不在立法院所以我不知道完全沒有完全沒有所以用政黨立場來決定要不要參與大法官這個憲法機關的憲法忠誠義務的過去這兩屆就是國民黨他認為你民進黨單獨過半了他根本連進去投都不投\n\n20\n00:07:26,175 --> 00:07:51,742\n而且在馬英九當總統的時候他自己掌握的國會過半他的自己本黨的委員也沒有完全都支持國民黨的總統提名的大法官這樣講夠清楚了吧是很清楚好謝謝現在我還有時間跟你請教幾個問題請問現在有媒體說我國的前選手成為中共對台統戰的樣板你覺得會不會有這個社會觀感馬英九去見宋濤說啊已經成為總統統戰樣板有沒有這樣的情況\n\n21\n00:07:53,710 --> 00:08:13,496\n當然現在目前的社會氛圍是有這樣的一個輿論的討論那麼陸委會喊話說請馬前總統不要去傷害台灣的地位跟國格你認同嗎當然認同那你認為這樣的作為是不是已經傷害到台灣的國家地位跟國格防害國家的尊嚴如果有這樣的行為的話你覺得怎麼辦\n\n22\n00:08:14,554 --> 00:08:34,668\n我想我們還是希望說在兩岸對等互惠平等的一個對等的一個兩岸條例有這個規定喔他說如果呢是妨礙國家住民的行為會怎樣吳斯懷條款會有處置嘛對不對你認為馬前總統這樣行為是不是跟兩岸條例這裡面已經發生了可以適用的地方\n\n23\n00:08:36,691 --> 00:09:01,013\n呃這個可能要那個這個路可未來判斷對主管單位來認定謝謝秘書長不介入這個部分好我們看一下那請問馬英九前總統的卸任禮遇終止了嗎目前我所知道是終止但是有一部分還是有就是說那對了我們現在審預算卸任元首的禮遇預算是編在總統府嗎是那請問馬英九總統現在前總統享受的這種準\n\n24\n00:09:02,008 --> 00:09:26,950\n李毓的待遇誰付錢是國家付錢政府付錢不是嗎不是總統府總統府付錢總統府繼續付警政署維安人員的錢嗎對好啦那這筆錢我們呼籲大家審查運動要注意一下一個卸任的維大總統李毓已經終止了居然還要由我們的總統府繼續支付他的維安人員的安排這個我覺得總統府要三思接下來我們等一下\n\n25\n00:09:27,762 --> 00:09:56,684\n那請問卸任總統如果協助統戰我們還有義務維持他的禮遇嗎?如果他在禮遇的期限內當然他如果涉及這個所謂的犯了內亂外患罪的話而且要經過審判那你覺得如果要不要比照兩岸條例不只有內亂外患比照損害國家國格跟尊嚴也加進去你支持嗎?我提醒一下你現在是民進黨總統所任命的秘書長是\n\n26\n00:09:57,645 --> 00:10:19,175\n目前符合卸任總統領域的剛好都是民進黨的卸任元首未來也卸任總統卸任後也是民進黨總統卸任所以簡單說現在到未來的幾年內如果有卸任總統領域我們要加嚴格的話不會是去針對其他在野黨你同意吧\n\n27\n00:10:20,377 --> 00:10:42,505\n應該就是只有民進黨的卸任總統有可能遇到嘛我想國家是有典章制度的任何的法律的制定不會去看顏色啦是的很好但是我要提醒你正因為我們目前加嚴格卸任總統的禮遇條例禮遇的辦法人家不會說你是針對在野黨因為現在跟未來有可能卸任的都是民進黨趁這個時候要趕快來提出加嚴因為我們很不習慣\n\n28\n00:10:47,506 --> 00:10:50,110\n有政黨啊當自己面臨到罷免的時候才來修改選辦法把罷免門檻提高加嚴怕自己被罷免\n\n29\n00:10:57,014 --> 00:11:17,876\n視日499號說類似這樣的一個制違起碼要下屆適用但是我們在上週由藍白聯手害怕被罷免的立委本屆當選之後急急忙忙的修改這個選罷法您覺得這樣子為了自己確保職務而去修改法律您覺得適當嗎\n\n30\n00:11:19,543 --> 00:11:45,091\n我想這個社會最有公平了很好那你認為如果我們目前加嚴防止未來的卸任元首出賣國家五路國格有損國家尊嚴現在去修改這個條例是不是比較好因為現在跟未來的可能的卸任元首都是民進黨民進黨來修是不是比較有正當性我想我個人基本上是支持但是我必須尊重大院的一個協議\n\n31\n00:11:46,792 --> 00:12:15,035\n我們做人做事就這樣子自己會適用的法律加嚴加緊自己開始不要等到自己要遇到的時候呢把它放寬放鬆好我們感謝來接下來這個新聞報導理想大地案外案富坤崎引中資買地幾則新聞報導在2011年10月25日30日2012年4月5日你有沒有看過這個容量公司的董建設名單請問一下這個名單你有沒有看到富坤崎的名字\n\n32\n00:12:15,876 --> 00:12:29,423\n還是有看到徐某位的名字你認為不管是卸任或在職的台灣的公職人員去中國投資要不要能夠注意一點顧慮到社會觀瞻\n\n33\n00:12:31,272 --> 00:12:44,543\n我想兩岸的自由貿易我想大家是一個我們基本上是樂觀但是作為公職的人更應該去注意但是這個是否有用到公務還是個人的投資行為這個必須釐清\n\n34\n00:12:46,688 --> 00:13:09,609\n這些呢還不是監察院公職人員財產申報所揭露的是媒體揭露的你認為如果有過去曾經在職的公務人員因財產申報現在就算不在原職務上被揭露出來在職期間有用自己的財產資金附中投資沒有做揭露你覺得監察院的財產申報是不是要予以追究\n\n35\n00:13:10,343 --> 00:13:18,136\n公職期間必須要介入必須要申報我講這個是卸任後被發現在職期間沒有被介入你覺得這個該當如何處理\n\n36\n00:13:19,654 --> 00:13:45,916\n那這個可能監察院很好監察院處處理我們會告訴監察院好我們來看一下中國統戰資金來台途徑透過第三國境外捐獻進來或者說透過在台的在中的台商以台商在台的企業捐款這兩種目前的法令沒辦法禁止那請問如果中國的資金透過人頭比如說介入了花園理想大地案的路徑這種情況之下你覺得要如何去防止這個部分我請我們吳秘書長來答覆一下\n\n37\n00:13:49,824 --> 00:13:51,365\n那個請潘兵曉稍候啊稍候是中委員好是文長你覺得如果有這種情況該怎麼辦\n\n38\n00:14:00,011 --> 00:14:18,635\n那有關於那個中資的那個部分的話齁我們有一些那個既有的這些法律規定那我們應該是依照這些既有的法律規定來好那如果涉及到公知人員財產申報是不是國安單位應該也要讓監察院知道一下如果你沒有掌握這樣的資訊如果是有的話我們會很好謝謝吳秘書長謝謝好那繼續我往下問齁來請問兩位秘書長\n\n39\n00:14:23,803 --> 00:14:44,130\n中國學生來臺交流不斷引發爭議啊什麼呼才我們臺灣的奪冠隊叫中國臺北隊都違反了當時兩岸交流的切結書面那麼現在呢陸委會說要可能嚴重的話不得再邀請來臺交流而且呢甚至中國的媒體稱呼去臺灣的中山女高說進了磐石洞\n\n40\n00:14:45,751 --> 00:14:51,276\n經過這樣的情況之下呢馬英九基金會邀請鍾聖誕來交流引發爭議民意調查有35.6%的人認為馬英九基金會應該負責有56.3%的認為這個法定的管制要更加的嚴格來管制統戰的網紅請問兩位秘書長你們認同這樣的民意反應嗎\n\n41\n00:15:07,550 --> 00:15:26,484\n個人是非常的認同,尤其是兩岸的交流必須要互惠、對等,也必須要健康有序。潘秘書長呢?一樣。一樣,很好。那我們來看一下。馬英九基金會可以邀請終生來台交流,他的基金的捐贈來源為何?我們看到112年度他的捐贈收入3000,超過3000萬。113年度,這個可能日期反過來了,日期呢?\n\n42\n00:15:33,015 --> 00:15:46,483\n110就是剛好反過來其實是增加三倍了那我們看看這是12年到11年這樣的情況請問你們吳秘書長如果有民眾檢舉認為馬英九文教基金會的捐贈來源來自具有中國的資金請問由誰來查\n\n43\n00:15:49,964 --> 00:16:06,012\n這個部分如果是有中國資金的話應該還是應該交到那個陸委會陸委會好謝謝往下看因為你好不好實質掌握基金掌控基金來統戰我們看到馬英九捐基金會捐款基金會新台灣人文教基金會馬英九勝選後政府補貼的競選經費兩千多萬\n\n44\n00:16:09,873 --> 00:16:36,201\n裡面的人物包括金浦聰後來也成立了個敦安社會福利基金會他把他競選市長的政府補助款1300多萬也放進去裡面的人有州美金但是你認為如果這兩個基金會目前還存在創辦人如果仍然是馬英九前總統都有實質掌控這樣的人到中國去做交流要不要嚴格密切注意他是否有引進中國的資金兩位秘書長請分別答覆\n\n45\n00:16:38,174 --> 00:17:02,106\n當然是要注意了不過還是要由那個有證據來審查好那潘秘書長呢一樣好我們來看一下最後潘秘書長吳淼請回現任現在卸任的總統副總統李毓財文前總統是不是像這邊所說的他的卸任總統每月的25萬元的李毓金他只領8萬6千元剩餘的16萬通通捐做公益8年捐出了超過1500萬潘秘書長這是否屬實\n\n46\n00:17:05,307 --> 00:17:23,783\n目前大概是每月的編制是26萬多目前只領8萬6他有據文來要求餘額就是說原來在年改之後的上限之後的其餘的目前有140幾萬有指定捐給公益的用途\n\n47\n00:17:24,423 --> 00:17:51,868\n好,那8年來捐了很多那麼請問前副總統陳建仁今年520卸任後在這個卸任後呢他回任中央研究院特殯研究員是不是第一位主動放棄禮遇的卸任副總統是有沒有卸任的總統放棄禮遇馬英九前總統有沒有放棄禮遇目前沒有吳敦義前副總統有沒有放棄禮遇這個我要查資料連戰前副總統有沒有放棄禮遇\n\n48\n00:17:52,995 --> 00:18:12,854\n我印象中好像沒有,這個我要詳細查好那你查一下最後你查一下馬英九前總統已經過了禮遇的期限了現在還有8人的維安編制這是創下卸任總統禮遇結束後的維安這有沒有潛力基本上我可能要查一下這個有沒有潛力這涉及到你們今天的預算審議啊好\n\n49\n00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:35,431\n好OK那個剛剛呢那個我們人事處這裡特別提示一下喔剛剛呂副總統後來他不是用特勤他是用一般的內政部的警政署的一個違安賬他是用內政部的預算不是用違安賬沒有用我們總統府的錢對對對好那你們分清楚因為這涉及到我們待會的預算審的最後的結論\n\n50\n00:18:37,292 --> 00:18:47,605\n請總統府也可以思考一下推動修法當卸任總統副總統如果協助中國統戰應該比照退降兩岸條例取消禮遇因為這個條例是你們總統府負責的\n\n51\n00:18:50,604 --> 00:19:12,930\n民主黨會考慮嗎?這個跟委員報告,這個部分是內政部的處理,我們這個可能要透過內政部的提案或是委員的提案。好,那另外那個題目呢,因為民主黨已經剛答覆過,我再重述。那麼請總統府要嚴格的、密切的來注意我們國家人民的公帑如果用在了卸任總統或副總統、元首、副元首的領域上應該要確保他能夠維持我國的國格跟\n\n52\n00:19:16,892 --> 00:19:20,531\n不能夠去審理到國家的安全。你同意吧?是。好,謝謝。謝謝班農先生。好,謝謝。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3619\t10304\t主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府局長、市長、官員、會長、公共夥伴、記者、媒體、女士先生有請我們總統府潘秘書長好,請潘秘書長\n19776\t35624\t市長好,歡迎你回娘家我們今天的主題本來我要問總統府相關預算的部分但是前面幾位委員都問了一些跟總統府最近的一些事情有關但我就就近來請教你請問比如說,你也做過民眾館館長嘛你做民眾館館長的時候是不是已經有六年了對那時候民眾館是不是有33兄弟\n45356\t55840\t對。是不是所有縣市內的議員會跟政府同座?對,是所有全國最多鄉鎮市的縣市。我印象中,那時候我們也是老館長你之前有這個我們的州卿館長,我們的蘇嘉磚館長,還有蘇貞雄館長。我記得我們老館長在說,全台灣的縣市內,鄉鎮同座是邊東關33鄉鎮。對。他說一句話叫做嘴硬的歷史背。這是什麼意思?\n77064\t87227\t意思是說一個老大人,還很小的孩子,還很辛苦,你作為冰凍管理員有沒有這種感覺?當然啦,一個小孩五、四、八,這個才一、二、三五、四、八,真的多早啦是,冰凍管理的財政不好,我們的鄉庭經驗一樣,冰凍管理要照顧33鄉庭,你作為管理員覺得財政實在很辛苦,沒錯齁?沒錯但是現在最近的這個財政違法,財政修律技術的違法,有人在講一句話給我加,他說呢\n106685\t110853\t攤是攤塞騎、騎是騎阿爹。你覺得這是什麼意思?\n111874\t123343\t不是啦,只有一個空的一個切出來這一大塊的餅但沒有負任何的這個責任譬如說阿嬸是善阿爹吃就是這樣就意思說我們前陣子阿伯阿嬤孩子出去吃頭肉啦炭的都做收費啦但是人家帶出來啦像這個汽車台款留不留在家有這種情形嗎是啊所以說炭的是炭塞車,吃的是吃阿爹啦\n141789\t168577\t目前我們的財政事務委員會有分兩條嘛,一條通常分配款,這條給地方政府委員會給你判用途?欸絕對有用途啊。沒有啦,這條通常分配款是財政事務委員會的嘛。是是是,通常分配款。我們想是給你做收費嘛。對對對。但是另外一條介紹叫一般補助款嘛。是。一般補助款有一定用途嗎?一定有用途。有嘛齁,要老師的薪水、要副警察的薪水、要做什麼事都有機名嘛。是是是。\n170097\t174118\t啊為什麼中央要給地方政府一半補助款?是不是像平等官?我們的財政修理還欠?所以呢,我們很多項目的開銷要中央替我們打?是,基本支出及財稅的收入不足的部分嘛。是,好。所以呢,我們知道,這次財政修織委員會他很嚴重的一個問題,不是\n192543\t201474\t中央及地方的分配,不然是各縣市分配不公平,中央及地方30條他說什麼?他說未來對地方的一般部署案都不能寫,意思就是說收費很容易,但是原來中央替你出的開銷都繼續打,你覺得中央及會不會陷阱?\n210706\t214269\t這絕對不可能,因為稅率來往不太多,而且現在一直開,毫無止境,沒有準確開支,而且用途如果是用在原來要負擔的義務責任上,那倒還可以,但如果不是用在原來的義務跟責任上所以這個法律水平這樣規定,但是很多我們的民眾,我們南部有地域的市長就說,喔,這是賺是賺誰騎啦\n235989\t238531\t總統府主管：立法院第11屆第22期司法及法制委員會第22次總統府主管．收件及法制委員會凍結項目1案。\n259383\t273052\t從過去一、二年給地方政府大概五千多億現在到今年已經到一百多億所以秘書長這是你過去老官你的身份你現在是中方秘書長但是第二項我來請教你做過我們的立法院的委員你是在2005年至2006年\n280938\t306039\t這兩任你是不是經歷過陳水扁總統跟馬英九總統對我在陳前總統跟馬英九總統那你還記得當時陳總統的時候民進黨是嘲笑野大我們那時候只有幾席只有27席加上無黨籍無黨籍的3席不算我們的是不是那時候馬英九總統那時候提名大法官有你記得那時候馬英九提名大法官的時候有沒有民進黨有沒有支持\n307560\t331988\t呃民進黨好像那次是沒有進去投票的樣子因為27期根本起不了作用是所以那時候沒有投票好那然而呢在陳水扁的時候提名的大法官民進黨只有27期對不對那陳總統提名的大法官有沒有通過呃好像提名了兩次嘛都有通過嘛那你覺得27期可以通過嗎是不是有在野黨支持才能通過\n334193\t349064\t對所以說嘛本來大法官的提名總統提名的時候就衡量國會的席次態勢那像嘲笑野大總統的提名當中就包含各種多元的不同的立場的希望能夠得到在議場支持你覺得合理嗎\n350428\t366585\t當然但是呢當馬英九上台之後呢他那時候國民黨掌握81席單獨過半所以那時候這一黨非常老人數非常少就沒有進去投票一樣過對不對對但是你知道嗎在馬英九提名的大法官當中有沒有不足81票的\n367403\t390592\t有有嘛表示連馬英九他當總統的時候他提名的大法官他掌握的國的絕對多數一樣有他自己的本黨的立法委員不買單不投票嘛是不是這樣接下來我們來看到2010年的時候我們也看到了賴浩敏跟蘇永青的得票少於國民黨的票而且呢民進黨是有投反對票是不是這樣子\n391972\t416763\t好像印象中但是到了2014年2011年的時候呢馬英九再度提名的時候民進黨沒有進去投反對票但是國民黨一樣跑票那你要知道喔那到了蔡英文當總統的時候第9屆的時候民進黨絕對多數國民黨抵制不投票但是民進黨過半嘛過了嘛到了第10屆您覺得\n418584\t438477\t蔡英文總統再度提名有兩次的時候你知道那時候大法官國民黨有進來投票嗎那個時候我不在立法院所以我不知道完全沒有完全沒有所以用政黨立場來決定要不要參與大法官這個憲法機關的憲法忠誠義務的過去這兩屆就是國民黨他認為你民進黨單獨過半了他根本連進去投都不投\n446175\t471742\t而且在馬英九當總統的時候他自己掌握的國會過半他的自己本黨的委員也沒有完全都支持國民黨的總統提名的大法官這樣講夠清楚了吧是很清楚好謝謝現在我還有時間跟你請教幾個問題請問現在有媒體說我國的前選手成為中共對台統戰的樣板你覺得會不會有這個社會觀感馬英九去見宋濤說啊已經成為總統統戰樣板有沒有這樣的情況\n473710\t493496\t當然現在目前的社會氛圍是有這樣的一個輿論的討論那麼陸委會喊話說請馬前總統不要去傷害台灣的地位跟國格你認同嗎當然認同那你認為這樣的作為是不是已經傷害到台灣的國家地位跟國格防害國家的尊嚴如果有這樣的行為的話你覺得怎麼辦\n494554\t514668\t我想我們還是希望說在兩岸對等互惠平等的一個對等的一個兩岸條例有這個規定喔他說如果呢是妨礙國家住民的行為會怎樣吳斯懷條款會有處置嘛對不對你認為馬前總統這樣行為是不是跟兩岸條例這裡面已經發生了可以適用的地方\n516691\t541013\t呃這個可能要那個這個路可未來判斷對主管單位來認定謝謝秘書長不介入這個部分好我們看一下那請問馬英九前總統的卸任禮遇終止了嗎目前我所知道是終止但是有一部分還是有就是說那對了我們現在審預算卸任元首的禮遇預算是編在總統府嗎是那請問馬英九總統現在前總統享受的這種準\n542008\t566950\t李毓的待遇誰付錢是國家付錢政府付錢不是嗎不是總統府總統府付錢總統府繼續付警政署維安人員的錢嗎對好啦那這筆錢我們呼籲大家審查運動要注意一下一個卸任的維大總統李毓已經終止了居然還要由我們的總統府繼續支付他的維安人員的安排這個我覺得總統府要三思接下來我們等一下\n567762\t596684\t那請問卸任總統如果協助統戰我們還有義務維持他的禮遇嗎?如果他在禮遇的期限內當然他如果涉及這個所謂的犯了內亂外患罪的話而且要經過審判那你覺得如果要不要比照兩岸條例不只有內亂外患比照損害國家國格跟尊嚴也加進去你支持嗎?我提醒一下你現在是民進黨總統所任命的秘書長是\n597645\t619175\t目前符合卸任總統領域的剛好都是民進黨的卸任元首未來也卸任總統卸任後也是民進黨總統卸任所以簡單說現在到未來的幾年內如果有卸任總統領域我們要加嚴格的話不會是去針對其他在野黨你同意吧\n620377\t642505\t應該就是只有民進黨的卸任總統有可能遇到嘛我想國家是有典章制度的任何的法律的制定不會去看顏色啦是的很好但是我要提醒你正因為我們目前加嚴格卸任總統的禮遇條例禮遇的辦法人家不會說你是針對在野黨因為現在跟未來有可能卸任的都是民進黨趁這個時候要趕快來提出加嚴因為我們很不習慣\n647506\t650110\t有政黨啊當自己面臨到罷免的時候才來修改選辦法把罷免門檻提高加嚴怕自己被罷免\n657014\t677876\t視日499號說類似這樣的一個制違起碼要下屆適用但是我們在上週由藍白聯手害怕被罷免的立委本屆當選之後急急忙忙的修改這個選罷法您覺得這樣子為了自己確保職務而去修改法律您覺得適當嗎\n679543\t705091\t我想這個社會最有公平了很好那你認為如果我們目前加嚴防止未來的卸任元首出賣國家五路國格有損國家尊嚴現在去修改這個條例是不是比較好因為現在跟未來的可能的卸任元首都是民進黨民進黨來修是不是比較有正當性我想我個人基本上是支持但是我必須尊重大院的一個協議\n706792\t735035\t我們做人做事就這樣子自己會適用的法律加嚴加緊自己開始不要等到自己要遇到的時候呢把它放寬放鬆好我們感謝來接下來這個新聞報導理想大地案外案富坤崎引中資買地幾則新聞報導在2011年10月25日30日2012年4月5日你有沒有看過這個容量公司的董建設名單請問一下這個名單你有沒有看到富坤崎的名字\n735876\t749423\t還是有看到徐某位的名字你認為不管是卸任或在職的台灣的公職人員去中國投資要不要能夠注意一點顧慮到社會觀瞻\n751272\t764543\t我想兩岸的自由貿易我想大家是一個我們基本上是樂觀但是作為公職的人更應該去注意但是這個是否有用到公務還是個人的投資行為這個必須釐清\n766688\t789609\t這些呢還不是監察院公職人員財產申報所揭露的是媒體揭露的你認為如果有過去曾經在職的公務人員因財產申報現在就算不在原職務上被揭露出來在職期間有用自己的財產資金附中投資沒有做揭露你覺得監察院的財產申報是不是要予以追究\n790343\t798136\t公職期間必須要介入必須要申報我講這個是卸任後被發現在職期間沒有被介入你覺得這個該當如何處理\n799654\t825916\t那這個可能監察院很好監察院處處理我們會告訴監察院好我們來看一下中國統戰資金來台途徑透過第三國境外捐獻進來或者說透過在台的在中的台商以台商在台的企業捐款這兩種目前的法令沒辦法禁止那請問如果中國的資金透過人頭比如說介入了花園理想大地案的路徑這種情況之下你覺得要如何去防止這個部分我請我們吳秘書長來答覆一下\n829824\t831365\t那個請潘兵曉稍候啊稍候是中委員好是文長你覺得如果有這種情況該怎麼辦\n840011\t858635\t那有關於那個中資的那個部分的話齁我們有一些那個既有的這些法律規定那我們應該是依照這些既有的法律規定來好那如果涉及到公知人員財產申報是不是國安單位應該也要讓監察院知道一下如果你沒有掌握這樣的資訊如果是有的話我們會很好謝謝吳秘書長謝謝好那繼續我往下問齁來請問兩位秘書長\n863803\t884130\t中國學生來臺交流不斷引發爭議啊什麼呼才我們臺灣的奪冠隊叫中國臺北隊都違反了當時兩岸交流的切結書面那麼現在呢陸委會說要可能嚴重的話不得再邀請來臺交流而且呢甚至中國的媒體稱呼去臺灣的中山女高說進了磐石洞\n885751\t891276\t經過這樣的情況之下呢馬英九基金會邀請鍾聖誕來交流引發爭議民意調查有35.6%的人認為馬英九基金會應該負責有56.3%的認為這個法定的管制要更加的嚴格來管制統戰的網紅請問兩位秘書長你們認同這樣的民意反應嗎\n907550\t926484\t個人是非常的認同,尤其是兩岸的交流必須要互惠、對等,也必須要健康有序。潘秘書長呢?一樣。一樣,很好。那我們來看一下。馬英九基金會可以邀請終生來台交流,他的基金的捐贈來源為何?我們看到112年度他的捐贈收入3000,超過3000萬。113年度,這個可能日期反過來了,日期呢?\n933015\t946483\t110就是剛好反過來其實是增加三倍了那我們看看這是12年到11年這樣的情況請問你們吳秘書長如果有民眾檢舉認為馬英九文教基金會的捐贈來源來自具有中國的資金請問由誰來查\n949964\t966012\t這個部分如果是有中國資金的話應該還是應該交到那個陸委會陸委會好謝謝往下看因為你好不好實質掌握基金掌控基金來統戰我們看到馬英九捐基金會捐款基金會新台灣人文教基金會馬英九勝選後政府補貼的競選經費兩千多萬\n969873\t996201\t裡面的人物包括金浦聰後來也成立了個敦安社會福利基金會他把他競選市長的政府補助款1300多萬也放進去裡面的人有州美金但是你認為如果這兩個基金會目前還存在創辦人如果仍然是馬英九前總統都有實質掌控這樣的人到中國去做交流要不要嚴格密切注意他是否有引進中國的資金兩位秘書長請分別答覆\n998174\t1022106\t當然是要注意了不過還是要由那個有證據來審查好那潘秘書長呢一樣好我們來看一下最後潘秘書長吳淼請回現任現在卸任的總統副總統李毓財文前總統是不是像這邊所說的他的卸任總統每月的25萬元的李毓金他只領8萬6千元剩餘的16萬通通捐做公益8年捐出了超過1500萬潘秘書長這是否屬實\n1025307\t1043783\t目前大概是每月的編制是26萬多目前只領8萬6他有據文來要求餘額就是說原來在年改之後的上限之後的其餘的目前有140幾萬有指定捐給公益的用途\n1044423\t1071868\t好,那8年來捐了很多那麼請問前副總統陳建仁今年520卸任後在這個卸任後呢他回任中央研究院特殯研究員是不是第一位主動放棄禮遇的卸任副總統是有沒有卸任的總統放棄禮遇馬英九前總統有沒有放棄禮遇目前沒有吳敦義前副總統有沒有放棄禮遇這個我要查資料連戰前副總統有沒有放棄禮遇\n1072995\t1092854\t我印象中好像沒有,這個我要詳細查好那你查一下最後你查一下馬英九前總統已經過了禮遇的期限了現在還有8人的維安編制這是創下卸任總統禮遇結束後的維安這有沒有潛力基本上我可能要查一下這個有沒有潛力這涉及到你們今天的預算審議啊好\n1097520\t1115431\t好OK 那個剛剛呢那個我們人事處這裡特別提示一下喔剛剛呂副總統後來他不是用特勤他是用一般的內政部的警政署的一個違安賬他是用內政部的預算不是用違安賬沒有用我們總統府的錢對對對好那你們分清楚因為這涉及到我們待會的預算審的最後的結論\n1117292\t1127605\t請總統府也可以思考一下推動修法當卸任總統副總統如果協助中國統戰應該比照退降兩岸條例取消禮遇因為這個條例是你們總統府負責的\n1130604\t1152930\t民主黨會考慮嗎?這個跟委員報告,這個部分是內政部的處理,我們這個可能要透過內政部的提案或是委員的提案。好,那另外那個題目呢,因為民主黨已經剛答覆過,我再重述。那麼請總統府要嚴格的、密切的來注意我們國家人民的公帑如果用在了卸任總統或副總統、元首、副元首的領域上應該要確保他能夠維持我國的國格跟\n1156892\t1160531\t不能夠去審理到國家的安全。你同意吧?是。好,謝謝。謝謝班農先生。好,謝謝。\n","txt":"主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府局長、市長、官員、會長、公共夥伴、記者、媒體、女士先生有請我們總統府潘秘書長好,請潘秘書長\n市長好,歡迎你回娘家我們今天的主題本來我要問總統府相關預算的部分但是前面幾位委員都問了一些跟總統府最近的一些事情有關但我就就近來請教你請問比如說,你也做過民眾館館長嘛你做民眾館館長的時候是不是已經有六年了對那時候民眾館是不是有33兄弟\n對。是不是所有縣市內的議員會跟政府同座?對,是所有全國最多鄉鎮市的縣市。我印象中,那時候我們也是老館長你之前有這個我們的州卿館長,我們的蘇嘉磚館長,還有蘇貞雄館長。我記得我們老館長在說,全台灣的縣市內,鄉鎮同座是邊東關33鄉鎮。對。他說一句話叫做嘴硬的歷史背。這是什麼意思?\n意思是說一個老大人,還很小的孩子,還很辛苦,你作為冰凍管理員有沒有這種感覺?當然啦,一個小孩五、四、八,這個才一、二、三五、四、八,真的多早啦是,冰凍管理的財政不好,我們的鄉庭經驗一樣,冰凍管理要照顧33鄉庭,你作為管理員覺得財政實在很辛苦,沒錯齁?沒錯但是現在最近的這個財政違法,財政修律技術的違法,有人在講一句話給我加,他說呢\n攤是攤塞騎、騎是騎阿爹。你覺得這是什麼意思?\n不是啦,只有一個空的一個切出來這一大塊的餅但沒有負任何的這個責任譬如說阿嬸是善阿爹吃就是這樣就意思說我們前陣子阿伯阿嬤孩子出去吃頭肉啦炭的都做收費啦但是人家帶出來啦像這個汽車台款留不留在家有這種情形嗎是啊所以說炭的是炭塞車,吃的是吃阿爹啦\n目前我們的財政事務委員會有分兩條嘛,一條通常分配款,這條給地方政府委員會給你判用途?欸絕對有用途啊。沒有啦,這條通常分配款是財政事務委員會的嘛。是是是,通常分配款。我們想是給你做收費嘛。對對對。但是另外一條介紹叫一般補助款嘛。是。一般補助款有一定用途嗎?一定有用途。有嘛齁,要老師的薪水、要副警察的薪水、要做什麼事都有機名嘛。是是是。\n啊為什麼中央要給地方政府一半補助款?是不是像平等官?我們的財政修理還欠?所以呢,我們很多項目的開銷要中央替我們打?是,基本支出及財稅的收入不足的部分嘛。是,好。所以呢,我們知道,這次財政修織委員會他很嚴重的一個問題,不是\n中央及地方的分配,不然是各縣市分配不公平,中央及地方30條他說什麼?他說未來對地方的一般部署案都不能寫,意思就是說收費很容易,但是原來中央替你出的開銷都繼續打,你覺得中央及會不會陷阱?\n這絕對不可能,因為稅率來往不太多,而且現在一直開,毫無止境,沒有準確開支,而且用途如果是用在原來要負擔的義務責任上,那倒還可以,但如果不是用在原來的義務跟責任上所以這個法律水平這樣規定,但是很多我們的民眾,我們南部有地域的市長就說,喔,這是賺是賺誰騎啦\n總統府主管：立法院第11屆第22期司法及法制委員會第22次總統府主管．收件及法制委員會凍結項目1案。\n從過去一、二年給地方政府大概五千多億現在到今年已經到一百多億所以秘書長這是你過去老官你的身份你現在是中方秘書長但是第二項我來請教你做過我們的立法院的委員你是在2005年至2006年\n這兩任你是不是經歷過陳水扁總統跟馬英九總統對我在陳前總統跟馬英九總統那你還記得當時陳總統的時候民進黨是嘲笑野大我們那時候只有幾席只有27席加上無黨籍無黨籍的3席不算我們的是不是那時候馬英九總統那時候提名大法官有你記得那時候馬英九提名大法官的時候有沒有民進黨有沒有支持\n呃民進黨好像那次是沒有進去投票的樣子因為27期根本起不了作用是所以那時候沒有投票好那然而呢在陳水扁的時候提名的大法官民進黨只有27期對不對那陳總統提名的大法官有沒有通過呃好像提名了兩次嘛都有通過嘛那你覺得27期可以通過嗎是不是有在野黨支持才能通過\n對所以說嘛本來大法官的提名總統提名的時候就衡量國會的席次態勢那像嘲笑野大總統的提名當中就包含各種多元的不同的立場的希望能夠得到在議場支持你覺得合理嗎\n當然但是呢當馬英九上台之後呢他那時候國民黨掌握81席單獨過半所以那時候這一黨非常老人數非常少就沒有進去投票一樣過對不對對但是你知道嗎在馬英九提名的大法官當中有沒有不足81票的\n有有嘛表示連馬英九他當總統的時候他提名的大法官他掌握的國的絕對多數一樣有他自己的本黨的立法委員不買單不投票嘛是不是這樣接下來我們來看到2010年的時候我們也看到了賴浩敏跟蘇永青的得票少於國民黨的票而且呢民進黨是有投反對票是不是這樣子\n好像印象中但是到了2014年2011年的時候呢馬英九再度提名的時候民進黨沒有進去投反對票但是國民黨一樣跑票那你要知道喔那到了蔡英文當總統的時候第9屆的時候民進黨絕對多數國民黨抵制不投票但是民進黨過半嘛過了嘛到了第10屆您覺得\n蔡英文總統再度提名有兩次的時候你知道那時候大法官國民黨有進來投票嗎那個時候我不在立法院所以我不知道完全沒有完全沒有所以用政黨立場來決定要不要參與大法官這個憲法機關的憲法忠誠義務的過去這兩屆就是國民黨他認為你民進黨單獨過半了他根本連進去投都不投\n而且在馬英九當總統的時候他自己掌握的國會過半他的自己本黨的委員也沒有完全都支持國民黨的總統提名的大法官這樣講夠清楚了吧是很清楚好謝謝現在我還有時間跟你請教幾個問題請問現在有媒體說我國的前選手成為中共對台統戰的樣板你覺得會不會有這個社會觀感馬英九去見宋濤說啊已經成為總統統戰樣板有沒有這樣的情況\n當然現在目前的社會氛圍是有這樣的一個輿論的討論那麼陸委會喊話說請馬前總統不要去傷害台灣的地位跟國格你認同嗎當然認同那你認為這樣的作為是不是已經傷害到台灣的國家地位跟國格防害國家的尊嚴如果有這樣的行為的話你覺得怎麼辦\n我想我們還是希望說在兩岸對等互惠平等的一個對等的一個兩岸條例有這個規定喔他說如果呢是妨礙國家住民的行為會怎樣吳斯懷條款會有處置嘛對不對你認為馬前總統這樣行為是不是跟兩岸條例這裡面已經發生了可以適用的地方\n呃這個可能要那個這個路可未來判斷對主管單位來認定謝謝秘書長不介入這個部分好我們看一下那請問馬英九前總統的卸任禮遇終止了嗎目前我所知道是終止但是有一部分還是有就是說那對了我們現在審預算卸任元首的禮遇預算是編在總統府嗎是那請問馬英九總統現在前總統享受的這種準\n李毓的待遇誰付錢是國家付錢政府付錢不是嗎不是總統府總統府付錢總統府繼續付警政署維安人員的錢嗎對好啦那這筆錢我們呼籲大家審查運動要注意一下一個卸任的維大總統李毓已經終止了居然還要由我們的總統府繼續支付他的維安人員的安排這個我覺得總統府要三思接下來我們等一下\n那請問卸任總統如果協助統戰我們還有義務維持他的禮遇嗎?如果他在禮遇的期限內當然他如果涉及這個所謂的犯了內亂外患罪的話而且要經過審判那你覺得如果要不要比照兩岸條例不只有內亂外患比照損害國家國格跟尊嚴也加進去你支持嗎?我提醒一下你現在是民進黨總統所任命的秘書長是\n目前符合卸任總統領域的剛好都是民進黨的卸任元首未來也卸任總統卸任後也是民進黨總統卸任所以簡單說現在到未來的幾年內如果有卸任總統領域我們要加嚴格的話不會是去針對其他在野黨你同意吧\n應該就是只有民進黨的卸任總統有可能遇到嘛我想國家是有典章制度的任何的法律的制定不會去看顏色啦是的很好但是我要提醒你正因為我們目前加嚴格卸任總統的禮遇條例禮遇的辦法人家不會說你是針對在野黨因為現在跟未來有可能卸任的都是民進黨趁這個時候要趕快來提出加嚴因為我們很不習慣\n有政黨啊當自己面臨到罷免的時候才來修改選辦法把罷免門檻提高加嚴怕自己被罷免\n視日499號說類似這樣的一個制違起碼要下屆適用但是我們在上週由藍白聯手害怕被罷免的立委本屆當選之後急急忙忙的修改這個選罷法您覺得這樣子為了自己確保職務而去修改法律您覺得適當嗎\n我想這個社會最有公平了很好那你認為如果我們目前加嚴防止未來的卸任元首出賣國家五路國格有損國家尊嚴現在去修改這個條例是不是比較好因為現在跟未來的可能的卸任元首都是民進黨民進黨來修是不是比較有正當性我想我個人基本上是支持但是我必須尊重大院的一個協議\n我們做人做事就這樣子自己會適用的法律加嚴加緊自己開始不要等到自己要遇到的時候呢把它放寬放鬆好我們感謝來接下來這個新聞報導理想大地案外案富坤崎引中資買地幾則新聞報導在2011年10月25日30日2012年4月5日你有沒有看過這個容量公司的董建設名單請問一下這個名單你有沒有看到富坤崎的名字\n還是有看到徐某位的名字你認為不管是卸任或在職的台灣的公職人員去中國投資要不要能夠注意一點顧慮到社會觀瞻\n我想兩岸的自由貿易我想大家是一個我們基本上是樂觀但是作為公職的人更應該去注意但是這個是否有用到公務還是個人的投資行為這個必須釐清\n這些呢還不是監察院公職人員財產申報所揭露的是媒體揭露的你認為如果有過去曾經在職的公務人員因財產申報現在就算不在原職務上被揭露出來在職期間有用自己的財產資金附中投資沒有做揭露你覺得監察院的財產申報是不是要予以追究\n公職期間必須要介入必須要申報我講這個是卸任後被發現在職期間沒有被介入你覺得這個該當如何處理\n那這個可能監察院很好監察院處處理我們會告訴監察院好我們來看一下中國統戰資金來台途徑透過第三國境外捐獻進來或者說透過在台的在中的台商以台商在台的企業捐款這兩種目前的法令沒辦法禁止那請問如果中國的資金透過人頭比如說介入了花園理想大地案的路徑這種情況之下你覺得要如何去防止這個部分我請我們吳秘書長來答覆一下\n那個請潘兵曉稍候啊稍候是中委員好是文長你覺得如果有這種情況該怎麼辦\n那有關於那個中資的那個部分的話齁我們有一些那個既有的這些法律規定那我們應該是依照這些既有的法律規定來好那如果涉及到公知人員財產申報是不是國安單位應該也要讓監察院知道一下如果你沒有掌握這樣的資訊如果是有的話我們會很好謝謝吳秘書長謝謝好那繼續我往下問齁來請問兩位秘書長\n中國學生來臺交流不斷引發爭議啊什麼呼才我們臺灣的奪冠隊叫中國臺北隊都違反了當時兩岸交流的切結書面那麼現在呢陸委會說要可能嚴重的話不得再邀請來臺交流而且呢甚至中國的媒體稱呼去臺灣的中山女高說進了磐石洞\n經過這樣的情況之下呢馬英九基金會邀請鍾聖誕來交流引發爭議民意調查有35.6%的人認為馬英九基金會應該負責有56.3%的認為這個法定的管制要更加的嚴格來管制統戰的網紅請問兩位秘書長你們認同這樣的民意反應嗎\n個人是非常的認同,尤其是兩岸的交流必須要互惠、對等,也必須要健康有序。潘秘書長呢?一樣。一樣,很好。那我們來看一下。馬英九基金會可以邀請終生來台交流,他的基金的捐贈來源為何?我們看到112年度他的捐贈收入3000,超過3000萬。113年度,這個可能日期反過來了,日期呢?\n110就是剛好反過來其實是增加三倍了那我們看看這是12年到11年這樣的情況請問你們吳秘書長如果有民眾檢舉認為馬英九文教基金會的捐贈來源來自具有中國的資金請問由誰來查\n這個部分如果是有中國資金的話應該還是應該交到那個陸委會陸委會好謝謝往下看因為你好不好實質掌握基金掌控基金來統戰我們看到馬英九捐基金會捐款基金會新台灣人文教基金會馬英九勝選後政府補貼的競選經費兩千多萬\n裡面的人物包括金浦聰後來也成立了個敦安社會福利基金會他把他競選市長的政府補助款1300多萬也放進去裡面的人有州美金但是你認為如果這兩個基金會目前還存在創辦人如果仍然是馬英九前總統都有實質掌控這樣的人到中國去做交流要不要嚴格密切注意他是否有引進中國的資金兩位秘書長請分別答覆\n當然是要注意了不過還是要由那個有證據來審查好那潘秘書長呢一樣好我們來看一下最後潘秘書長吳淼請回現任現在卸任的總統副總統李毓財文前總統是不是像這邊所說的他的卸任總統每月的25萬元的李毓金他只領8萬6千元剩餘的16萬通通捐做公益8年捐出了超過1500萬潘秘書長這是否屬實\n目前大概是每月的編制是26萬多目前只領8萬6他有據文來要求餘額就是說原來在年改之後的上限之後的其餘的目前有140幾萬有指定捐給公益的用途\n好,那8年來捐了很多那麼請問前副總統陳建仁今年520卸任後在這個卸任後呢他回任中央研究院特殯研究員是不是第一位主動放棄禮遇的卸任副總統是有沒有卸任的總統放棄禮遇馬英九前總統有沒有放棄禮遇目前沒有吳敦義前副總統有沒有放棄禮遇這個我要查資料連戰前副總統有沒有放棄禮遇\n我印象中好像沒有,這個我要詳細查好那你查一下最後你查一下馬英九前總統已經過了禮遇的期限了現在還有8人的維安編制這是創下卸任總統禮遇結束後的維安這有沒有潛力基本上我可能要查一下這個有沒有潛力這涉及到你們今天的預算審議啊好\n好OK 那個剛剛呢那個我們人事處這裡特別提示一下喔剛剛呂副總統後來他不是用特勤他是用一般的內政部的警政署的一個違安賬他是用內政部的預算不是用違安賬沒有用我們總統府的錢對對對好那你們分清楚因為這涉及到我們待會的預算審的最後的結論\n請總統府也可以思考一下推動修法當卸任總統副總統如果協助中國統戰應該比照退降兩岸條例取消禮遇因為這個條例是你們總統府負責的\n民主黨會考慮嗎?這個跟委員報告,這個部分是內政部的處理,我們這個可能要透過內政部的提案或是委員的提案。好,那另外那個題目呢,因為民主黨已經剛答覆過,我再重述。那麼請總統府要嚴格的、密切的來注意我們國家人民的公帑如果用在了卸任總統或副總統、元首、副元首的領域上應該要確保他能夠維持我國的國格跟\n不能夠去審理到國家的安全。你同意吧?是。好,謝謝。謝謝班農先生。好,謝謝。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.619 --> 00:10.304\n主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府局長、市長、官員、會長、公共夥伴、記者、媒體、女士先生有請我們總統府潘秘書長好,請潘秘書長\n\n00:19.776 --> 00:35.624\n市長好,歡迎你回娘家我們今天的主題本來我要問總統府相關預算的部分但是前面幾位委員都問了一些跟總統府最近的一些事情有關但我就就近來請教你請問比如說,你也做過民眾館館長嘛你做民眾館館長的時候是不是已經有六年了對那時候民眾館是不是有33兄弟\n\n00:45.356 --> 00:55.840\n對。是不是所有縣市內的議員會跟政府同座?對,是所有全國最多鄉鎮市的縣市。我印象中,那時候我們也是老館長你之前有這個我們的州卿館長,我們的蘇嘉磚館長,還有蘇貞雄館長。我記得我們老館長在說,全台灣的縣市內,鄉鎮同座是邊東關33鄉鎮。對。他說一句話叫做嘴硬的歷史背。這是什麼意思?\n\n01:17.064 --> 01:27.227\n意思是說一個老大人,還很小的孩子,還很辛苦,你作為冰凍管理員有沒有這種感覺?當然啦,一個小孩五、四、八,這個才一、二、三五、四、八,真的多早啦是,冰凍管理的財政不好,我們的鄉庭經驗一樣,冰凍管理要照顧33鄉庭,你作為管理員覺得財政實在很辛苦,沒錯齁?沒錯但是現在最近的這個財政違法,財政修律技術的違法,有人在講一句話給我加,他說呢\n\n01:46.685 --> 01:50.853\n攤是攤塞騎、騎是騎阿爹。你覺得這是什麼意思?\n\n01:51.874 --> 02:03.343\n不是啦,只有一個空的一個切出來這一大塊的餅但沒有負任何的這個責任譬如說阿嬸是善阿爹吃就是這樣就意思說我們前陣子阿伯阿嬤孩子出去吃頭肉啦炭的都做收費啦但是人家帶出來啦像這個汽車台款留不留在家有這種情形嗎是啊所以說炭的是炭塞車,吃的是吃阿爹啦\n\n02:21.789 --> 02:48.577\n目前我們的財政事務委員會有分兩條嘛,一條通常分配款,這條給地方政府委員會給你判用途?欸絕對有用途啊。沒有啦,這條通常分配款是財政事務委員會的嘛。是是是,通常分配款。我們想是給你做收費嘛。對對對。但是另外一條介紹叫一般補助款嘛。是。一般補助款有一定用途嗎?一定有用途。有嘛齁,要老師的薪水、要副警察的薪水、要做什麼事都有機名嘛。是是是。\n\n02:50.097 --> 02:54.118\n啊為什麼中央要給地方政府一半補助款?是不是像平等官?我們的財政修理還欠?所以呢,我們很多項目的開銷要中央替我們打?是,基本支出及財稅的收入不足的部分嘛。是,好。所以呢,我們知道,這次財政修織委員會他很嚴重的一個問題,不是\n\n03:12.543 --> 03:21.474\n中央及地方的分配,不然是各縣市分配不公平,中央及地方30條他說什麼?他說未來對地方的一般部署案都不能寫,意思就是說收費很容易,但是原來中央替你出的開銷都繼續打,你覺得中央及會不會陷阱?\n\n03:30.706 --> 03:34.269\n這絕對不可能,因為稅率來往不太多,而且現在一直開,毫無止境,沒有準確開支,而且用途如果是用在原來要負擔的義務責任上,那倒還可以,但如果不是用在原來的義務跟責任上所以這個法律水平這樣規定,但是很多我們的民眾,我們南部有地域的市長就說,喔,這是賺是賺誰騎啦\n\n03:55.989 --> 03:58.531\n總統府主管：立法院第11屆第22期司法及法制委員會第22次總統府主管．收件及法制委員會凍結項目1案。\n\n04:19.383 --> 04:33.052\n從過去一、二年給地方政府大概五千多億現在到今年已經到一百多億所以秘書長這是你過去老官你的身份你現在是中方秘書長但是第二項我來請教你做過我們的立法院的委員你是在2005年至2006年\n\n04:40.938 --> 05:06.039\n這兩任你是不是經歷過陳水扁總統跟馬英九總統對我在陳前總統跟馬英九總統那你還記得當時陳總統的時候民進黨是嘲笑野大我們那時候只有幾席只有27席加上無黨籍無黨籍的3席不算我們的是不是那時候馬英九總統那時候提名大法官有你記得那時候馬英九提名大法官的時候有沒有民進黨有沒有支持\n\n05:07.560 --> 05:31.988\n呃民進黨好像那次是沒有進去投票的樣子因為27期根本起不了作用是所以那時候沒有投票好那然而呢在陳水扁的時候提名的大法官民進黨只有27期對不對那陳總統提名的大法官有沒有通過呃好像提名了兩次嘛都有通過嘛那你覺得27期可以通過嗎是不是有在野黨支持才能通過\n\n05:34.193 --> 05:49.064\n對所以說嘛本來大法官的提名總統提名的時候就衡量國會的席次態勢那像嘲笑野大總統的提名當中就包含各種多元的不同的立場的希望能夠得到在議場支持你覺得合理嗎\n\n05:50.428 --> 06:06.585\n當然但是呢當馬英九上台之後呢他那時候國民黨掌握81席單獨過半所以那時候這一黨非常老人數非常少就沒有進去投票一樣過對不對對但是你知道嗎在馬英九提名的大法官當中有沒有不足81票的\n\n06:07.403 --> 06:30.592\n有有嘛表示連馬英九他當總統的時候他提名的大法官他掌握的國的絕對多數一樣有他自己的本黨的立法委員不買單不投票嘛是不是這樣接下來我們來看到2010年的時候我們也看到了賴浩敏跟蘇永青的得票少於國民黨的票而且呢民進黨是有投反對票是不是這樣子\n\n06:31.972 --> 06:56.763\n好像印象中但是到了2014年2011年的時候呢馬英九再度提名的時候民進黨沒有進去投反對票但是國民黨一樣跑票那你要知道喔那到了蔡英文當總統的時候第9屆的時候民進黨絕對多數國民黨抵制不投票但是民進黨過半嘛過了嘛到了第10屆您覺得\n\n06:58.584 --> 07:18.477\n蔡英文總統再度提名有兩次的時候你知道那時候大法官國民黨有進來投票嗎那個時候我不在立法院所以我不知道完全沒有完全沒有所以用政黨立場來決定要不要參與大法官這個憲法機關的憲法忠誠義務的過去這兩屆就是國民黨他認為你民進黨單獨過半了他根本連進去投都不投\n\n07:26.175 --> 07:51.742\n而且在馬英九當總統的時候他自己掌握的國會過半他的自己本黨的委員也沒有完全都支持國民黨的總統提名的大法官這樣講夠清楚了吧是很清楚好謝謝現在我還有時間跟你請教幾個問題請問現在有媒體說我國的前選手成為中共對台統戰的樣板你覺得會不會有這個社會觀感馬英九去見宋濤說啊已經成為總統統戰樣板有沒有這樣的情況\n\n07:53.710 --> 08:13.496\n當然現在目前的社會氛圍是有這樣的一個輿論的討論那麼陸委會喊話說請馬前總統不要去傷害台灣的地位跟國格你認同嗎當然認同那你認為這樣的作為是不是已經傷害到台灣的國家地位跟國格防害國家的尊嚴如果有這樣的行為的話你覺得怎麼辦\n\n08:14.554 --> 08:34.668\n我想我們還是希望說在兩岸對等互惠平等的一個對等的一個兩岸條例有這個規定喔他說如果呢是妨礙國家住民的行為會怎樣吳斯懷條款會有處置嘛對不對你認為馬前總統這樣行為是不是跟兩岸條例這裡面已經發生了可以適用的地方\n\n08:36.691 --> 09:01.013\n呃這個可能要那個這個路可未來判斷對主管單位來認定謝謝秘書長不介入這個部分好我們看一下那請問馬英九前總統的卸任禮遇終止了嗎目前我所知道是終止但是有一部分還是有就是說那對了我們現在審預算卸任元首的禮遇預算是編在總統府嗎是那請問馬英九總統現在前總統享受的這種準\n\n09:02.008 --> 09:26.950\n李毓的待遇誰付錢是國家付錢政府付錢不是嗎不是總統府總統府付錢總統府繼續付警政署維安人員的錢嗎對好啦那這筆錢我們呼籲大家審查運動要注意一下一個卸任的維大總統李毓已經終止了居然還要由我們的總統府繼續支付他的維安人員的安排這個我覺得總統府要三思接下來我們等一下\n\n09:27.762 --> 09:56.684\n那請問卸任總統如果協助統戰我們還有義務維持他的禮遇嗎?如果他在禮遇的期限內當然他如果涉及這個所謂的犯了內亂外患罪的話而且要經過審判那你覺得如果要不要比照兩岸條例不只有內亂外患比照損害國家國格跟尊嚴也加進去你支持嗎?我提醒一下你現在是民進黨總統所任命的秘書長是\n\n09:57.645 --> 10:19.175\n目前符合卸任總統領域的剛好都是民進黨的卸任元首未來也卸任總統卸任後也是民進黨總統卸任所以簡單說現在到未來的幾年內如果有卸任總統領域我們要加嚴格的話不會是去針對其他在野黨你同意吧\n\n10:20.377 --> 10:42.505\n應該就是只有民進黨的卸任總統有可能遇到嘛我想國家是有典章制度的任何的法律的制定不會去看顏色啦是的很好但是我要提醒你正因為我們目前加嚴格卸任總統的禮遇條例禮遇的辦法人家不會說你是針對在野黨因為現在跟未來有可能卸任的都是民進黨趁這個時候要趕快來提出加嚴因為我們很不習慣\n\n10:47.506 --> 10:50.110\n有政黨啊當自己面臨到罷免的時候才來修改選辦法把罷免門檻提高加嚴怕自己被罷免\n\n10:57.014 --> 11:17.876\n視日499號說類似這樣的一個制違起碼要下屆適用但是我們在上週由藍白聯手害怕被罷免的立委本屆當選之後急急忙忙的修改這個選罷法您覺得這樣子為了自己確保職務而去修改法律您覺得適當嗎\n\n11:19.543 --> 11:45.091\n我想這個社會最有公平了很好那你認為如果我們目前加嚴防止未來的卸任元首出賣國家五路國格有損國家尊嚴現在去修改這個條例是不是比較好因為現在跟未來的可能的卸任元首都是民進黨民進黨來修是不是比較有正當性我想我個人基本上是支持但是我必須尊重大院的一個協議\n\n11:46.792 --> 12:15.035\n我們做人做事就這樣子自己會適用的法律加嚴加緊自己開始不要等到自己要遇到的時候呢把它放寬放鬆好我們感謝來接下來這個新聞報導理想大地案外案富坤崎引中資買地幾則新聞報導在2011年10月25日30日2012年4月5日你有沒有看過這個容量公司的董建設名單請問一下這個名單你有沒有看到富坤崎的名字\n\n12:15.876 --> 12:29.423\n還是有看到徐某位的名字你認為不管是卸任或在職的台灣的公職人員去中國投資要不要能夠注意一點顧慮到社會觀瞻\n\n12:31.272 --> 12:44.543\n我想兩岸的自由貿易我想大家是一個我們基本上是樂觀但是作為公職的人更應該去注意但是這個是否有用到公務還是個人的投資行為這個必須釐清\n\n12:46.688 --> 13:09.609\n這些呢還不是監察院公職人員財產申報所揭露的是媒體揭露的你認為如果有過去曾經在職的公務人員因財產申報現在就算不在原職務上被揭露出來在職期間有用自己的財產資金附中投資沒有做揭露你覺得監察院的財產申報是不是要予以追究\n\n13:10.343 --> 13:18.136\n公職期間必須要介入必須要申報我講這個是卸任後被發現在職期間沒有被介入你覺得這個該當如何處理\n\n13:19.654 --> 13:45.916\n那這個可能監察院很好監察院處處理我們會告訴監察院好我們來看一下中國統戰資金來台途徑透過第三國境外捐獻進來或者說透過在台的在中的台商以台商在台的企業捐款這兩種目前的法令沒辦法禁止那請問如果中國的資金透過人頭比如說介入了花園理想大地案的路徑這種情況之下你覺得要如何去防止這個部分我請我們吳秘書長來答覆一下\n\n13:49.824 --> 13:51.365\n那個請潘兵曉稍候啊稍候是中委員好是文長你覺得如果有這種情況該怎麼辦\n\n14:00.011 --> 14:18.635\n那有關於那個中資的那個部分的話齁我們有一些那個既有的這些法律規定那我們應該是依照這些既有的法律規定來好那如果涉及到公知人員財產申報是不是國安單位應該也要讓監察院知道一下如果你沒有掌握這樣的資訊如果是有的話我們會很好謝謝吳秘書長謝謝好那繼續我往下問齁來請問兩位秘書長\n\n14:23.803 --> 14:44.130\n中國學生來臺交流不斷引發爭議啊什麼呼才我們臺灣的奪冠隊叫中國臺北隊都違反了當時兩岸交流的切結書面那麼現在呢陸委會說要可能嚴重的話不得再邀請來臺交流而且呢甚至中國的媒體稱呼去臺灣的中山女高說進了磐石洞\n\n14:45.751 --> 14:51.276\n經過這樣的情況之下呢馬英九基金會邀請鍾聖誕來交流引發爭議民意調查有35.6%的人認為馬英九基金會應該負責有56.3%的認為這個法定的管制要更加的嚴格來管制統戰的網紅請問兩位秘書長你們認同這樣的民意反應嗎\n\n15:07.550 --> 15:26.484\n個人是非常的認同,尤其是兩岸的交流必須要互惠、對等,也必須要健康有序。潘秘書長呢?一樣。一樣,很好。那我們來看一下。馬英九基金會可以邀請終生來台交流,他的基金的捐贈來源為何?我們看到112年度他的捐贈收入3000,超過3000萬。113年度,這個可能日期反過來了,日期呢?\n\n15:33.015 --> 15:46.483\n110就是剛好反過來其實是增加三倍了那我們看看這是12年到11年這樣的情況請問你們吳秘書長如果有民眾檢舉認為馬英九文教基金會的捐贈來源來自具有中國的資金請問由誰來查\n\n15:49.964 --> 16:06.012\n這個部分如果是有中國資金的話應該還是應該交到那個陸委會陸委會好謝謝往下看因為你好不好實質掌握基金掌控基金來統戰我們看到馬英九捐基金會捐款基金會新台灣人文教基金會馬英九勝選後政府補貼的競選經費兩千多萬\n\n16:09.873 --> 16:36.201\n裡面的人物包括金浦聰後來也成立了個敦安社會福利基金會他把他競選市長的政府補助款1300多萬也放進去裡面的人有州美金但是你認為如果這兩個基金會目前還存在創辦人如果仍然是馬英九前總統都有實質掌控這樣的人到中國去做交流要不要嚴格密切注意他是否有引進中國的資金兩位秘書長請分別答覆\n\n16:38.174 --> 17:02.106\n當然是要注意了不過還是要由那個有證據來審查好那潘秘書長呢一樣好我們來看一下最後潘秘書長吳淼請回現任現在卸任的總統副總統李毓財文前總統是不是像這邊所說的他的卸任總統每月的25萬元的李毓金他只領8萬6千元剩餘的16萬通通捐做公益8年捐出了超過1500萬潘秘書長這是否屬實\n\n17:05.307 --> 17:23.783\n目前大概是每月的編制是26萬多目前只領8萬6他有據文來要求餘額就是說原來在年改之後的上限之後的其餘的目前有140幾萬有指定捐給公益的用途\n\n17:24.423 --> 17:51.868\n好,那8年來捐了很多那麼請問前副總統陳建仁今年520卸任後在這個卸任後呢他回任中央研究院特殯研究員是不是第一位主動放棄禮遇的卸任副總統是有沒有卸任的總統放棄禮遇馬英九前總統有沒有放棄禮遇目前沒有吳敦義前副總統有沒有放棄禮遇這個我要查資料連戰前副總統有沒有放棄禮遇\n\n17:52.995 --> 18:12.854\n我印象中好像沒有,這個我要詳細查好那你查一下最後你查一下馬英九前總統已經過了禮遇的期限了現在還有8人的維安編制這是創下卸任總統禮遇結束後的維安這有沒有潛力基本上我可能要查一下這個有沒有潛力這涉及到你們今天的預算審議啊好\n\n18:17.520 --> 18:35.431\n好OK那個剛剛呢那個我們人事處這裡特別提示一下喔剛剛呂副總統後來他不是用特勤他是用一般的內政部的警政署的一個違安賬他是用內政部的預算不是用違安賬沒有用我們總統府的錢對對對好那你們分清楚因為這涉及到我們待會的預算審的最後的結論\n\n18:37.292 --> 18:47.605\n請總統府也可以思考一下推動修法當卸任總統副總統如果協助中國統戰應該比照退降兩岸條例取消禮遇因為這個條例是你們總統府負責的\n\n18:50.604 --> 19:12.930\n民主黨會考慮嗎?這個跟委員報告,這個部分是內政部的處理,我們這個可能要透過內政部的提案或是委員的提案。好,那另外那個題目呢,因為民主黨已經剛答覆過,我再重述。那麼請總統府要嚴格的、密切的來注意我們國家人民的公帑如果用在了卸任總統或副總統、元首、副元首的領域上應該要確保他能夠維持我國的國格跟\n\n19:16.892 --> 19:20.531\n不能夠去審理到國家的安全。你同意吧?是。好,謝謝。謝謝班農先生。好,謝謝。\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.619,"end":10.304,"text":"主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府局長、市長、官員、會長、公共夥伴、記者、媒體、女士先生有請我們總統府潘秘書長好,請潘秘書長"},{"start":19.776,"end":35.624,"text":"市長好,歡迎你回娘家我們今天的主題本來我要問總統府相關預算的部分但是前面幾位委員都問了一些跟總統府最近的一些事情有關但我就就近來請教你請問比如說,你也做過民眾館館長嘛你做民眾館館長的時候是不是已經有六年了對那時候民眾館是不是有33兄弟"},{"start":45.356,"end":55.84,"text":"對。是不是所有縣市內的議員會跟政府同座?對,是所有全國最多鄉鎮市的縣市。我印象中,那時候我們也是老館長你之前有這個我們的州卿館長,我們的蘇嘉磚館長,還有蘇貞雄館長。我記得我們老館長在說,全台灣的縣市內,鄉鎮同座是邊東關33鄉鎮。對。他說一句話叫做嘴硬的歷史背。這是什麼意思?"},{"start":77.064,"end":87.227,"text":"意思是說一個老大人,還很小的孩子,還很辛苦,你作為冰凍管理員有沒有這種感覺?當然啦,一個小孩五、四、八,這個才一、二、三五、四、八,真的多早啦是,冰凍管理的財政不好,我們的鄉庭經驗一樣,冰凍管理要照顧33鄉庭,你作為管理員覺得財政實在很辛苦,沒錯齁?沒錯但是現在最近的這個財政違法,財政修律技術的違法,有人在講一句話給我加,他說呢"},{"start":106.685,"end":110.853,"text":"攤是攤塞騎、騎是騎阿爹。你覺得這是什麼意思?"},{"start":111.874,"end":123.343,"text":"不是啦,只有一個空的一個切出來這一大塊的餅但沒有負任何的這個責任譬如說阿嬸是善阿爹吃就是這樣就意思說我們前陣子阿伯阿嬤孩子出去吃頭肉啦炭的都做收費啦但是人家帶出來啦像這個汽車台款留不留在家有這種情形嗎是啊所以說炭的是炭塞車,吃的是吃阿爹啦"},{"start":141.789,"end":168.577,"text":"目前我們的財政事務委員會有分兩條嘛,一條通常分配款,這條給地方政府委員會給你判用途?欸絕對有用途啊。沒有啦,這條通常分配款是財政事務委員會的嘛。是是是,通常分配款。我們想是給你做收費嘛。對對對。但是另外一條介紹叫一般補助款嘛。是。一般補助款有一定用途嗎?一定有用途。有嘛齁,要老師的薪水、要副警察的薪水、要做什麼事都有機名嘛。是是是。"},{"start":170.097,"end":174.118,"text":"啊為什麼中央要給地方政府一半補助款?是不是像平等官?我們的財政修理還欠?所以呢,我們很多項目的開銷要中央替我們打?是,基本支出及財稅的收入不足的部分嘛。是,好。所以呢,我們知道,這次財政修織委員會他很嚴重的一個問題,不是"},{"start":192.543,"end":201.474,"text":"中央及地方的分配,不然是各縣市分配不公平,中央及地方30條他說什麼?他說未來對地方的一般部署案都不能寫,意思就是說收費很容易,但是原來中央替你出的開銷都繼續打,你覺得中央及會不會陷阱?"},{"start":210.706,"end":214.269,"text":"這絕對不可能,因為稅率來往不太多,而且現在一直開,毫無止境,沒有準確開支,而且用途如果是用在原來要負擔的義務責任上,那倒還可以,但如果不是用在原來的義務跟責任上所以這個法律水平這樣規定,但是很多我們的民眾,我們南部有地域的市長就說,喔,這是賺是賺誰騎啦"},{"start":235.989,"end":238.531,"text":"總統府主管：立法院第11屆第22期司法及法制委員會第22次總統府主管．收件及法制委員會凍結項目1案。"},{"start":259.383,"end":273.052,"text":"從過去一、二年給地方政府大概五千多億現在到今年已經到一百多億所以秘書長這是你過去老官你的身份你現在是中方秘書長但是第二項我來請教你做過我們的立法院的委員你是在2005年至2006年"},{"start":280.938,"end":306.039,"text":"這兩任你是不是經歷過陳水扁總統跟馬英九總統對我在陳前總統跟馬英九總統那你還記得當時陳總統的時候民進黨是嘲笑野大我們那時候只有幾席只有27席加上無黨籍無黨籍的3席不算我們的是不是那時候馬英九總統那時候提名大法官有你記得那時候馬英九提名大法官的時候有沒有民進黨有沒有支持"},{"start":307.56,"end":331.988,"text":"呃民進黨好像那次是沒有進去投票的樣子因為27期根本起不了作用是所以那時候沒有投票好那然而呢在陳水扁的時候提名的大法官民進黨只有27期對不對那陳總統提名的大法官有沒有通過呃好像提名了兩次嘛都有通過嘛那你覺得27期可以通過嗎是不是有在野黨支持才能通過"},{"start":334.193,"end":349.064,"text":"對所以說嘛本來大法官的提名總統提名的時候就衡量國會的席次態勢那像嘲笑野大總統的提名當中就包含各種多元的不同的立場的希望能夠得到在議場支持你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":350.428,"end":366.585,"text":"當然但是呢當馬英九上台之後呢他那時候國民黨掌握81席單獨過半所以那時候這一黨非常老人數非常少就沒有進去投票一樣過對不對對但是你知道嗎在馬英九提名的大法官當中有沒有不足81票的"},{"start":367.403,"end":390.592,"text":"有有嘛表示連馬英九他當總統的時候他提名的大法官他掌握的國的絕對多數一樣有他自己的本黨的立法委員不買單不投票嘛是不是這樣接下來我們來看到2010年的時候我們也看到了賴浩敏跟蘇永青的得票少於國民黨的票而且呢民進黨是有投反對票是不是這樣子"},{"start":391.972,"end":416.763,"text":"好像印象中但是到了2014年2011年的時候呢馬英九再度提名的時候民進黨沒有進去投反對票但是國民黨一樣跑票那你要知道喔那到了蔡英文當總統的時候第9屆的時候民進黨絕對多數國民黨抵制不投票但是民進黨過半嘛過了嘛到了第10屆您覺得"},{"start":418.584,"end":438.477,"text":"蔡英文總統再度提名有兩次的時候你知道那時候大法官國民黨有進來投票嗎那個時候我不在立法院所以我不知道完全沒有完全沒有所以用政黨立場來決定要不要參與大法官這個憲法機關的憲法忠誠義務的過去這兩屆就是國民黨他認為你民進黨單獨過半了他根本連進去投都不投"},{"start":446.175,"end":471.742,"text":"而且在馬英九當總統的時候他自己掌握的國會過半他的自己本黨的委員也沒有完全都支持國民黨的總統提名的大法官這樣講夠清楚了吧是很清楚好謝謝現在我還有時間跟你請教幾個問題請問現在有媒體說我國的前選手成為中共對台統戰的樣板你覺得會不會有這個社會觀感馬英九去見宋濤說啊已經成為總統統戰樣板有沒有這樣的情況"},{"start":473.71,"end":493.496,"text":"當然現在目前的社會氛圍是有這樣的一個輿論的討論那麼陸委會喊話說請馬前總統不要去傷害台灣的地位跟國格你認同嗎當然認同那你認為這樣的作為是不是已經傷害到台灣的國家地位跟國格防害國家的尊嚴如果有這樣的行為的話你覺得怎麼辦"},{"start":494.554,"end":514.668,"text":"我想我們還是希望說在兩岸對等互惠平等的一個對等的一個兩岸條例有這個規定喔他說如果呢是妨礙國家住民的行為會怎樣吳斯懷條款會有處置嘛對不對你認為馬前總統這樣行為是不是跟兩岸條例這裡面已經發生了可以適用的地方"},{"start":516.691,"end":541.013,"text":"呃這個可能要那個這個路可未來判斷對主管單位來認定謝謝秘書長不介入這個部分好我們看一下那請問馬英九前總統的卸任禮遇終止了嗎目前我所知道是終止但是有一部分還是有就是說那對了我們現在審預算卸任元首的禮遇預算是編在總統府嗎是那請問馬英九總統現在前總統享受的這種準"},{"start":542.008,"end":566.95,"text":"李毓的待遇誰付錢是國家付錢政府付錢不是嗎不是總統府總統府付錢總統府繼續付警政署維安人員的錢嗎對好啦那這筆錢我們呼籲大家審查運動要注意一下一個卸任的維大總統李毓已經終止了居然還要由我們的總統府繼續支付他的維安人員的安排這個我覺得總統府要三思接下來我們等一下"},{"start":567.762,"end":596.684,"text":"那請問卸任總統如果協助統戰我們還有義務維持他的禮遇嗎?如果他在禮遇的期限內當然他如果涉及這個所謂的犯了內亂外患罪的話而且要經過審判那你覺得如果要不要比照兩岸條例不只有內亂外患比照損害國家國格跟尊嚴也加進去你支持嗎?我提醒一下你現在是民進黨總統所任命的秘書長是"},{"start":597.645,"end":619.175,"text":"目前符合卸任總統領域的剛好都是民進黨的卸任元首未來也卸任總統卸任後也是民進黨總統卸任所以簡單說現在到未來的幾年內如果有卸任總統領域我們要加嚴格的話不會是去針對其他在野黨你同意吧"},{"start":620.377,"end":642.505,"text":"應該就是只有民進黨的卸任總統有可能遇到嘛我想國家是有典章制度的任何的法律的制定不會去看顏色啦是的很好但是我要提醒你正因為我們目前加嚴格卸任總統的禮遇條例禮遇的辦法人家不會說你是針對在野黨因為現在跟未來有可能卸任的都是民進黨趁這個時候要趕快來提出加嚴因為我們很不習慣"},{"start":647.506,"end":650.11,"text":"有政黨啊當自己面臨到罷免的時候才來修改選辦法把罷免門檻提高加嚴怕自己被罷免"},{"start":657.014,"end":677.876,"text":"視日499號說類似這樣的一個制違起碼要下屆適用但是我們在上週由藍白聯手害怕被罷免的立委本屆當選之後急急忙忙的修改這個選罷法您覺得這樣子為了自己確保職務而去修改法律您覺得適當嗎"},{"start":679.543,"end":705.091,"text":"我想這個社會最有公平了很好那你認為如果我們目前加嚴防止未來的卸任元首出賣國家五路國格有損國家尊嚴現在去修改這個條例是不是比較好因為現在跟未來的可能的卸任元首都是民進黨民進黨來修是不是比較有正當性我想我個人基本上是支持但是我必須尊重大院的一個協議"},{"start":706.792,"end":735.035,"text":"我們做人做事就這樣子自己會適用的法律加嚴加緊自己開始不要等到自己要遇到的時候呢把它放寬放鬆好我們感謝來接下來這個新聞報導理想大地案外案富坤崎引中資買地幾則新聞報導在2011年10月25日30日2012年4月5日你有沒有看過這個容量公司的董建設名單請問一下這個名單你有沒有看到富坤崎的名字"},{"start":735.876,"end":749.423,"text":"還是有看到徐某位的名字你認為不管是卸任或在職的台灣的公職人員去中國投資要不要能夠注意一點顧慮到社會觀瞻"},{"start":751.272,"end":764.543,"text":"我想兩岸的自由貿易我想大家是一個我們基本上是樂觀但是作為公職的人更應該去注意但是這個是否有用到公務還是個人的投資行為這個必須釐清"},{"start":766.688,"end":789.609,"text":"這些呢還不是監察院公職人員財產申報所揭露的是媒體揭露的你認為如果有過去曾經在職的公務人員因財產申報現在就算不在原職務上被揭露出來在職期間有用自己的財產資金附中投資沒有做揭露你覺得監察院的財產申報是不是要予以追究"},{"start":790.343,"end":798.136,"text":"公職期間必須要介入必須要申報我講這個是卸任後被發現在職期間沒有被介入你覺得這個該當如何處理"},{"start":799.654,"end":825.916,"text":"那這個可能監察院很好監察院處處理我們會告訴監察院好我們來看一下中國統戰資金來台途徑透過第三國境外捐獻進來或者說透過在台的在中的台商以台商在台的企業捐款這兩種目前的法令沒辦法禁止那請問如果中國的資金透過人頭比如說介入了花園理想大地案的路徑這種情況之下你覺得要如何去防止這個部分我請我們吳秘書長來答覆一下"},{"start":829.824,"end":831.365,"text":"那個請潘兵曉稍候啊稍候是中委員好是文長你覺得如果有這種情況該怎麼辦"},{"start":840.011,"end":858.635,"text":"那有關於那個中資的那個部分的話齁我們有一些那個既有的這些法律規定那我們應該是依照這些既有的法律規定來好那如果涉及到公知人員財產申報是不是國安單位應該也要讓監察院知道一下如果你沒有掌握這樣的資訊如果是有的話我們會很好謝謝吳秘書長謝謝好那繼續我往下問齁來請問兩位秘書長"},{"start":863.803,"end":884.13,"text":"中國學生來臺交流不斷引發爭議啊什麼呼才我們臺灣的奪冠隊叫中國臺北隊都違反了當時兩岸交流的切結書面那麼現在呢陸委會說要可能嚴重的話不得再邀請來臺交流而且呢甚至中國的媒體稱呼去臺灣的中山女高說進了磐石洞"},{"start":885.751,"end":891.276,"text":"經過這樣的情況之下呢馬英九基金會邀請鍾聖誕來交流引發爭議民意調查有35.6%的人認為馬英九基金會應該負責有56.3%的認為這個法定的管制要更加的嚴格來管制統戰的網紅請問兩位秘書長你們認同這樣的民意反應嗎"},{"start":907.55,"end":926.484,"text":"個人是非常的認同,尤其是兩岸的交流必須要互惠、對等,也必須要健康有序。潘秘書長呢?一樣。一樣,很好。那我們來看一下。馬英九基金會可以邀請終生來台交流,他的基金的捐贈來源為何?我們看到112年度他的捐贈收入3000,超過3000萬。113年度,這個可能日期反過來了,日期呢?"},{"start":933.015,"end":946.483,"text":"110就是剛好反過來其實是增加三倍了那我們看看這是12年到11年這樣的情況請問你們吳秘書長如果有民眾檢舉認為馬英九文教基金會的捐贈來源來自具有中國的資金請問由誰來查"},{"start":949.964,"end":966.012,"text":"這個部分如果是有中國資金的話應該還是應該交到那個陸委會陸委會好謝謝往下看因為你好不好實質掌握基金掌控基金來統戰我們看到馬英九捐基金會捐款基金會新台灣人文教基金會馬英九勝選後政府補貼的競選經費兩千多萬"},{"start":969.873,"end":996.201,"text":"裡面的人物包括金浦聰後來也成立了個敦安社會福利基金會他把他競選市長的政府補助款1300多萬也放進去裡面的人有州美金但是你認為如果這兩個基金會目前還存在創辦人如果仍然是馬英九前總統都有實質掌控這樣的人到中國去做交流要不要嚴格密切注意他是否有引進中國的資金兩位秘書長請分別答覆"},{"start":998.174,"end":1022.106,"text":"當然是要注意了不過還是要由那個有證據來審查好那潘秘書長呢一樣好我們來看一下最後潘秘書長吳淼請回現任現在卸任的總統副總統李毓財文前總統是不是像這邊所說的他的卸任總統每月的25萬元的李毓金他只領8萬6千元剩餘的16萬通通捐做公益8年捐出了超過1500萬潘秘書長這是否屬實"},{"start":1025.307,"end":1043.783,"text":"目前大概是每月的編制是26萬多目前只領8萬6他有據文來要求餘額就是說原來在年改之後的上限之後的其餘的目前有140幾萬有指定捐給公益的用途"},{"start":1044.423,"end":1071.868,"text":"好,那8年來捐了很多那麼請問前副總統陳建仁今年520卸任後在這個卸任後呢他回任中央研究院特殯研究員是不是第一位主動放棄禮遇的卸任副總統是有沒有卸任的總統放棄禮遇馬英九前總統有沒有放棄禮遇目前沒有吳敦義前副總統有沒有放棄禮遇這個我要查資料連戰前副總統有沒有放棄禮遇"},{"start":1072.995,"end":1092.854,"text":"我印象中好像沒有,這個我要詳細查好那你查一下最後你查一下馬英九前總統已經過了禮遇的期限了現在還有8人的維安編制這是創下卸任總統禮遇結束後的維安這有沒有潛力基本上我可能要查一下這個有沒有潛力這涉及到你們今天的預算審議啊好"},{"start":1097.52,"end":1115.431,"text":"好OK 那個剛剛呢那個我們人事處這裡特別提示一下喔剛剛呂副總統後來他不是用特勤他是用一般的內政部的警政署的一個違安賬他是用內政部的預算不是用違安賬沒有用我們總統府的錢對對對好那你們分清楚因為這涉及到我們待會的預算審的最後的結論"},{"start":1117.292,"end":1127.605,"text":"請總統府也可以思考一下推動修法當卸任總統副總統如果協助中國統戰應該比照退降兩岸條例取消禮遇因為這個條例是你們總統府負責的"},{"start":1130.604,"end":1152.93,"text":"民主黨會考慮嗎?這個跟委員報告,這個部分是內政部的處理,我們這個可能要透過內政部的提案或是委員的提案。好,那另外那個題目呢,因為民主黨已經剛答覆過,我再重述。那麼請總統府要嚴格的、密切的來注意我們國家人民的公帑如果用在了卸任總統或副總統、元首、副元首的領域上應該要確保他能夠維持我國的國格跟"},{"start":1156.892,"end":1160.531,"text":"不能夠去審理到國家的安全。你同意吧?是。好,謝謝。謝謝班農先生。好,謝謝。"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1144,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時26分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場的工作夥伴、記者媒體女士先生。有請我們總統府潘秘書長。"],["主席：請潘秘書長。"],["潘秘書長孟安：召委，辛苦了，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：秘書長好，歡迎你回娘家！就我們今天的主題，本來我要問總統府相關預算的部分，但是前面幾位委員都問了有關總統府最近的一些事情，那我就近來請教你，請問秘書長，你也做過屏東縣縣長嘛！"],["潘秘書長孟安：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你當屏東縣縣長的時候，是不是已經有六都了？"],["潘秘書長孟安：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那個時候屏東縣是不是有33個鄉鎮？"],["潘秘書長孟安：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是所有縣市裡面，你們下面的二級單位、下級單位是最多的？"],["潘秘書長孟安：對，是全國有最多鄉鎮市的縣市。"],["鍾委員佳濱：印象中，那時候我們的老縣長，在你之前的有曹啟鴻縣長、蘇嘉全縣長還有蘇貞昌縣長，我記得我們老縣長曾說，全臺灣各縣市裡面，鄉鎮數目最多的是屏東縣，有33鄉鎮，他說了一句話，叫做「多子餓死爸」，這什麼意思？意思是說一個老人家照顧很多小孩，照顧得很辛苦，你做屏東縣縣長時有這個感覺嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：當然，真的是「多子餓死爸」！僧多粥少！"],["鍾委員佳濱：屏東縣的財政不太好，我們的鄉鎮更是一樣，屏東縣長要照顧33個鄉鎮，你當縣長時，應該也覺得財政狀況實在不太好，沒錯吧？"],["潘秘書長孟安：沒錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是最近的財政收支劃分法，有人教我一句話，就是「賺，賺私攲；吃，吃俺爹」，你覺得這是什麼意思？"],["潘秘書長孟安：沒錯啦！只有一個空的、切出來一大塊的餅，但沒有負任何的責任，就是「瘦，瘦俺爹；吃，吃俺娘」。"],["鍾委員佳濱：意思是說，我們鄉下地方的阿伯、阿嬤，他的小孩出去工作，賺的都自己花用，但是他們住家裡，甚至汽車貸款都是老爸老媽替他們繳，有這種情形吧？"],["潘秘書長孟安：是啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以說「賺，賺私攲；吃，吃俺爹」，目前我們的財政收支劃分法有分兩項，一項是統籌分配款，這是給地方政府去用，有限制用途嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：絕對是有用途的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有啦，這個統籌分配款是由它自行決定如何使用。"],["潘秘書長孟安：是！是！是！統籌分配款是這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就像是給你花用的。"],["潘秘書長孟安：對！對！對！"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是另外一項很重要，叫做一般補助款，一般補助款有指定用途嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：一定有指定用途。"],["鍾委員佳濱：像老師的薪水、警察的薪水等等，要做什麼事情都是有指明的。"],["潘秘書長孟安：是！是！是！"],["鍾委員佳濱：為什麼中央要給地方政府一般補助款？是不是像屏東縣，我們的財政收入比較少，所以我們很多項目的開銷，要中央替我們負擔？"],["潘秘書長孟安：是，基本支出跟財稅收入有不足的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這次財政收支劃分法有一個很嚴重的問題，不只是中央跟地方的分配，不只是各縣市分配不公平，重要的是第三十條說什麼呢？它說，未來對地方的一般補助款都不能減，意思就是說，錢就儘量拿，但是原來中央替你出的開銷再繼續負擔，你覺得中央承受得了嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：這絕對承受不了，因為歲入來源沒有那麼不多，而且還一直拿出去，毫無止境，不撙節開支，而且在用途上，如果是用在原來要負擔的義務、責任上，那倒還可以，但如果不是用在原來的義務跟責任上……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這個法律雖然這樣規定，但是很多我們屏東、南部有智慧的長輩就說了，這是「賺，賺私攲；吃，吃俺爹」、「有錢烏白舞，沒錢罵老母」，你覺得會這樣嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：這是有可能的，變成地方大概都會哭窮，但是其實這八年多來，地方的財政都有大量的改善，而且從中央統籌分配款，包括補助款，從過去的2012年給地方政府的大概五千多億，明年則是已經到一兆一百多億。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以秘書長，你過去是老縣長的身分，現在你是總統秘書長了，但是針對第二項，我來請教你，你也做過我們的立法院的委員，分別在2005年跟2015年，這兩任你是不是經歷過陳水扁總統跟馬英九總統？"],["潘秘書長孟安：對，我在陳前總統跟馬英九總統……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那你還記得當時陳總統的時候，民進黨是朝小野大嘛！"],["潘秘書長孟安：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們那時候只有幾席？只有27席嘛！加上無黨籍，無黨籍的3席不算我們的啦。那時候馬英九總統不是有提名大法官？"],["潘秘書長孟安：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你記得那時候馬英九提名大法官的時候，民進黨有沒有支持？"],["潘秘書長孟安：民進黨好像那次沒有進去投票，因為27席根本起不了作用。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，所以那時候沒有投票？"],["潘秘書長孟安：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，然而在陳水扁提名大法官的時候，民進黨只有27席對不對？"],["潘秘書長孟安：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：陳總統提名的大法官有沒有通過？"],["潘秘書長孟安：好像有通過。"],["鍾委員佳濱：提名了兩次，都有通過嘛！"],["潘秘書長孟安：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你覺得27席可以通過嗎？是不是有在野黨支持才能通過？"],["潘秘書長孟安：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以說嘛，本來大法官的提名，總統提名的時候就會衡量國會的席次態勢，像朝小野大，總統的提名當中就會包含各種多元的、不同立場的，希望能夠得到在野黨的支持，你覺得這合理嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：當然啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是當馬英九上台之後，那時候國民黨掌握81席，單獨過半，所以那時候在野黨的人數非常少，就沒有進去投票，一樣過對不對？"],["潘秘書長孟安：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是你知道嗎？在馬英九提名的大法官當中，有沒有不足81票的？"],["潘秘書長孟安：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有嘛！表示連馬英九當總統的時候，他提名的大法官，他掌握了國會的絕對多數，一樣有他自己本黨的立法委員不買單、不投票，是不是這樣？"],["潘秘書長孟安：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：接下來我們來看2010年的時候，我們也看到賴浩敏跟蘇永欽的得票，少於國民黨的票耶！而且民進黨是有投反對票，是不是這樣子？"],["潘秘書長孟安：好像印象中是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：印象是沒有錯啦！因為這個有點久遠，但是到了2011年的時候，馬英九再度提名時，民進黨沒有進去投反對票，但是國民黨一樣跑票。你要知道，到了蔡英文當總統的時候，第九屆的時候民進黨絕對多數，國民黨抵制不投票，但是民進黨過半，過了嘛！到了第十屆，您覺得蔡英文總統再度提名有兩次的時候，你知道那時候大法官，國民黨有進來投票嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：那個時候我不在立法院，所以我不知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：完全沒有，所以用政黨立場來決定要不要參與大法官，這個憲法機關的，憲法忠誠義務的，過去這兩屆就是國民黨，他認為民進黨單獨過半了，他根本連進去投都不投。而且在馬英九當總統的時候，他自己掌握的國會過半，他自己本黨的委員，也沒有完全都支持國民黨總統提名的大法官。這樣講夠清楚了吧？"],["潘秘書長孟安：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很清楚，好，謝謝。現在我用剩下的時間跟你請教幾個問題，請問現在有媒體說，我國的前元首成為中共對臺統戰的樣板，你覺得會不會有這個社會觀感？馬英九去見宋濤，說已經成為中共統戰樣板，有沒有這樣的情況？"],["潘秘書長孟安：當然目前的社會氛圍是有這樣的一個輿論的討論。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那麼陸委會喊話，請馬前總統不要去傷害臺灣的地位跟國格，你認同嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：當然認同。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那你認為這樣的作為，是不是已經傷害到臺灣的國家地位跟國格，妨礙國家的尊嚴？如果有這樣的行為的話，你覺得怎麼辦？"],["潘秘書長孟安：我想我們還是希望在兩岸對等互惠，平等對等的一個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，兩岸條例有這個規定喔，它說如果是妨礙國家尊嚴的行為會怎樣？吳斯懷條款，會有處置嘛！對不對？"],["潘秘書長孟安：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你認為馬前總統這樣的行為，是不是已經發生了跟兩岸條例裡面可以適用的地方？"],["潘秘書長孟安：這個可能要那個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：陸委會來判斷？"],["潘秘書長孟安：對，主管單位來認定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，秘書長不介入這個部分。"],["潘秘書長孟安：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們看一下，請問馬英九前總統的卸任禮遇終止了嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：目前我所知道是終止，但是有一部分還是有，就是說他的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對啦！我們要審預算，卸任元首的禮遇，預算是編在總統府。"],["潘秘書長孟安：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問馬英九前總統享受禮遇的待遇是誰付錢？"],["潘秘書長孟安：是國家付錢，政府付錢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是總統府？"],["潘秘書長孟安：總統府付錢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：總統府繼續付警政署維安人員的錢嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那這筆錢我們呼籲大家審查預算要注意一下，一個卸任的國家總統，禮遇已經終止了，居然還要由總統府繼續支付他的維安人員的安排，這個我覺得總統府要三思。接下來我們看一下，請問卸任總統如果協助統戰，我們還有義務維持他的禮遇嗎？如果他在禮遇的期限內。"],["潘秘書長孟安：當然他如果涉及所謂的犯了內亂外患罪的話，而且要經過審判……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你覺得要不要比照兩岸條例，不只有內亂外患，比照損害國家的國格跟尊嚴也加進去，你支持嗎？我提醒一下，你現在是民進黨總統任命的秘書長，目前符合卸任總統禮遇的，剛好都是民進黨的卸任元首。未來現任總統卸任後，也是民進黨總統卸任，所以簡單說現在到未來的幾年內，如果有卸任總統禮遇，我們要加嚴格的話，不會是去針對其他在野黨，你同意吧？應該就是只有民進黨的卸任總統有可能遇到。"],["潘秘書長孟安：我想國家是有典章制度的，任何法律的制定，不會去看顏色啦！我想這個是很重要的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，很好，但是我要提醒你，正因為我們目前加嚴格卸任總統的禮遇條例、禮遇的辦法，人家不會說你是針對在野黨，因為現在跟未來有可能卸任的都是民進黨。趁這個時候要趕快提出加嚴，因為我們很不習慣，有政黨當自己面臨罷免的時候才來修改選罷法，把罷免門檻提高、加嚴，怕自己被罷免。釋字第499號說類似這樣的自肥，起碼要下屆適用，但是我們在上週由藍白聯手，害怕被罷免的立委，本屆當選之後急急忙忙的修改選罷法。您覺得這樣子，為了自己確保職務而去修改法律，您覺得適當嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：我想這個社會自有公評。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，那你認為如果我們目前加嚴，防止未來的卸任元首出賣國家、侮辱國格、有損國家尊嚴，現在去修改這個條例是不是比較好？因為現在跟未來可能卸任元首都是民進黨，民進黨來修是不是比較有正當性？"],["潘秘書長孟安：我個人基本上是支持，但是我們必須尊重大院的決議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，謝謝。我們做人做事就要這樣子，自己會適用的法律加嚴、加緊，自己開始，不要等到自己要遇到的時候把它放寬、放鬆。","接下來這個新聞報導，理想大地案外案，傅崐萁引中資買地。幾則新聞報導在2011年10月25號、30號，2012年4月5號，你有沒有看過榮亮公司的董監事名單？請問一下這個名單你有沒有看到傅崐萁的名字？還是有看到徐○蔚的名字？你認為不管是卸任或在職的臺灣公職人員，去中國投資要不要注意一點，顧慮到社會觀瞻？"],["潘秘書長孟安：兩岸的自由貿易，我們基本上是樂觀看待，但是作為公職人員更應該注意，至於這個是否有用到公務，還是個人的投資行為，這個必須釐清。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這些還不是監察院公職人員財產申報所揭露的，是媒體揭露的。你認為如果有過去曾經在職的公務人員因財產申報，現在就算不在原職務上被揭露出來，在職期間有用自己的財產資金赴中投資沒有做揭露，你覺得監察院的財產申報是不是要予以追究？"],["潘秘書長孟安：公職期間必須要揭露，必須要申報，我想這個是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：卸任後被發現在職期間沒有被揭露，你覺得該如何處理？"],["潘秘書長孟安：這個可能監察院要……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，監察院處理，我們會告訴監察院。我們來看一下，中國統戰資金的來臺途徑，透過第三國境外捐獻進來或者透過在中的臺商，以臺商在臺的企業捐款，這兩種目前的法令沒辦法禁止。請問如果中國的資金透過人頭，比如說介入了花蓮理想大地案外案的路徑，這種情況之下，你覺得要如何去防止？這個部分請吳秘書長來答復一下。"],["潘秘書長孟安：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請潘秘書長稍後。"],["吳秘書長釗燮：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：吳秘書長，你覺得如果有這種情況該怎麼辦？"],["吳秘書長釗燮：有關於中資的部分，我們有一些既有的法律規定，我們應該是依照這些既有的法律規定來處理，必須經過審查。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，如果涉及公職人員財產申報，是不是國安單位應該也要讓監察院知道一下，如果你們有掌握這樣的資訊？"],["吳秘書長釗燮：如果有的話，我們會請相關機關來審查。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，謝謝吳秘書長。我繼續往下問，請問兩位秘書長，中國學生來臺交流不斷引發爭議，什麼稱呼我們臺灣的奪冠隊叫中國臺北隊，都違反了當時兩岸交流切結的書面資料。現在陸委會說可能嚴重的話不得再邀請來臺交流，甚至中國的媒體稱呼去臺灣的中山女高說進了盤絲洞。經過這樣的情況之下，馬英九基金會邀請中生來臺交流引發爭議，民意調查有35.6%的人認為馬英九基金會應該負責，有56.3%的認為這個法定的管制要更加嚴格來管制統戰的網紅。請問兩位秘書長，你們認同這樣的民意反應嗎？"],["吳秘書長釗燮：個人是非常的認同，尤其是兩岸的交流必須互惠對等，也必須健康有序。"],["鍾委員佳濱：潘秘書長呢？"],["潘秘書長孟安：一樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，那我們來看一下，馬英九基金會可以邀請中生來臺交流，他的基金捐贈來源為何？我們看到112年度他的捐贈收入超過3,000萬，113年度……這個可能日期反過來了，就是剛好反過來，其實是增加3倍。我們看到這是112年到111年，這樣的情況，請問吳秘書長，如果有民眾檢舉，認為馬英九文教基金會的捐贈來源具有中國的資金，請問由誰來查？"],["吳秘書長釗燮：這個部分，如果是有中國資金的話，應該還是交到陸委會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：陸委會，好，謝謝。往下看，實質掌控基金來統戰，我們看到馬英九捐款基金會，新台灣人文教基金會，馬英九勝選後政府補貼的競選經費兩千多萬，裡面的人物包括金溥聰，後來也成立了敦安社會福利基金會，他把他競選市長的政府補助款一千三百多萬也放進去，裡面的人有周美青。你認為如果這兩個基金會目前還存在，創辦人如果仍然是馬英九前總統，都有實質掌控，這樣的人到中國去做交流，要不要嚴格密切注意他是否有引進中國的資金？兩位秘書長請分別答復。"],["吳秘書長釗燮：當然是要注意，不過還是要由主管機關來審查。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那潘秘書長呢？"],["潘秘書長孟安：一樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。吳秘書長請回，潘秘書長，我們來看一下，現在卸任的總統、副總統禮遇，蔡英文前總統是不是像這邊所說的，他的卸任總統每月25萬元的禮遇金，他只領8萬6,000元，剩餘的16萬統統捐作公益，8年捐出超過1,500萬，潘秘書長這是否屬實？"],["潘秘書長孟安：目前大概每月的編制是二十六萬多，目前只領8萬6,000元，他有具文要求餘額在年改之後的上限，其餘的目前有一百十幾萬指定捐給公益的用途。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那8年來捐了很多，那麼請問前副總統陳建仁在520卸任後，回任中央研究院特聘研究員，是不是第一位主動放棄禮遇的卸任副總統？"],["潘秘書長孟安：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有卸任的總統放棄禮遇？馬英九前總統有沒有放棄禮遇？"],["潘秘書長孟安：目前沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：吳敦義前副總統有沒有放棄禮遇？"],["潘秘書長孟安：這個我要查資料。"],["鍾委員佳濱：連戰前副總統有沒有放棄禮遇？"],["潘秘書長孟安：印象中好像沒有，這個我要詳細查。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，你查一下。最後你查一下，馬英九前總統已經過了禮遇的期限了，現在還有8人的維安編制，這是創下卸任總統禮遇結束後的維安，這有沒有前例？"],["潘秘書長孟安：基本上我可能要查一下這個有沒有前例。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這涉及你們今天的預算審議。"],["潘秘書長孟安：OK，剛剛我們人事處特別提示，呂副總統後來不是用特勤，他是用一般的內政部警政署的維安……"],["鍾委員佳濱：他是用內政部的預算。"],["潘秘書長孟安：對，不是用維安……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有用總統府的錢？"],["潘秘書長孟安：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，你們分清楚，因為這涉及我們待會的預算審查。"],["潘秘書長孟安：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後的結論，請總統府也可以思考一下，推動修法，當卸任總統、副總統如果協助中國統戰，應該比照退將的兩岸條例，取消禮遇。因為這個條例是你們總統府負責的，秘書長會考慮嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：跟委員報告，這個部分是內政部處理的，可能要透過內政部的提案或委員的提案。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，另外那個題目，因為剛剛已經答復過了，我就不重述。請總統府要嚴格、密切的注意，我們國家人民的公帑，如果用在卸任總統或副總統，元首、副元首的禮遇上，應該要確保他能夠維持我國的國格，跟不能損及國家的安全，你同意嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，謝謝潘秘書長。"],["潘秘書長孟安：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱召委及兩位秘書長的詢答，謝謝。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱）：接下來有請鄭正鈐委員。鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","有請黃委員國昌。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":228,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-22","speakers":["鍾佳濱","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","黃國昌","洪孟楷","賴瑞隆","徐富癸"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-25"],"gazette_id":"1141303","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1141303_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於總統府主管（不含中央研究院）收支部分；二、處理113\n年度中央政府總預算關於總統府預算凍結項目1案","agenda_id":"1141303_00001"}}}