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00:01:12,510\n訴求中央政府不能再集權又集錢這場記者會你有參與吧?有有嘛當時您的身份是什麼?民進黨黨團的成員2012年當初你是民進黨黨團幹部的時候你們有沒有提出財政收支劃分法的修法?\n\n4\n00:01:13,527 --> 00:01:22,114\n我印象中好像有提但是沒辦法通過因為每一個縣市的故意沒有關係我們一樣一樣來你印象中有提嘛你自己提過的法案你應該記得嘛我來幫你複習一下\n\n5\n00:01:27,163 --> 00:01:44,829\n這是在2012年4月25號立法院的公報民主進步黨立院黨團柯建民潘孟安陳亭飛當初您的職位應該是幹事長嗎沒錯好來我們來看一下當初民進黨在野的時候所提出的財政收支劃分法我們先關注\n\n6\n00:01:45,709 --> 00:02:04,991\n目前引發很多討論的中央跟地方的垂直分配中央跟地方垂直分配我相信秘書長很熟啦您之前也提案要修財政收支劃分法嘛來那個時候民主進步黨黨團的版本中央跟地方的垂直分配要怎麼修還記不記得\n\n7\n00:02:06,964 --> 00:02:21,379\n呃這個要看過去的資料要修一定要修我到目前為止我都幫你整理出來了那個時候民進黨的主張是說所得稅本來是10%拿來做中央統籌分配款主張要到20%\n\n8\n00:02:22,620 --> 00:02:38,473\n而且增加一個直轄市要多10%那個時候只有5都現在有6都了所以按照民進黨那個時候您所提出來的版本中央統籌分配款大概要從10%到30%這是第1%第二個貨物稅的部分沒有動第三個營業稅的部分從40%到100%跟我們這一次國會所通過的法律40%到100%是不是一樣\n\n9\n00:02:52,421 --> 00:03:21,921\n我想委員這個時空背景不一樣我知道時空背景當然不一樣現在目前我們中央政府總預算裡面61%都是用在六都其他非六都的限制才用了24%的分配現在我在跟你講的是垂直分配的問題你只要focus在你那個時候提出來的版本就好了來最後一個那個時候你們是不是還要求燕九歲81%也要列入中央統籌分配款\n\n10\n00:03:22,721 --> 00:03:46,249\n是吧這是你提出來的立法版本嗎?是沒錯所以我們把2024年國會三讀通過的法案跟2012年民主進步黨由您跟柯建民所領銜提案的法案做兩相對比阿藍秘書長你覺得這兩個版本中央統籌分配款要分給地方政府\n\n11\n00:03:47,423 --> 00:04:15,939\n挖得比較多的是哪一個版本?呃我我不這麼認為齁委員我跟你報告齁不好意思喔我的請教是說這兩個版本挖得比較多的是哪一個版本因為經過12年12年前2011年對中央給地方政府不對中央給地方政府才5000億然後2024年2025年未來中央給地方政府是一兆1000多億完全不一樣我要跟秘書長講的事情齁是你的論點\n\n12\n00:04:17,060 --> 00:04:43,587\n我在財政委員會啊直接問過財政部部長啊你們在談數字的時候啊因為我雖然是學法律的但是啊我是用統計的方法在研究法律啊你不要看絕對值啊母數是多少講清楚啊你佔的percentage現在中央政府給地方政府中央統籌分配款過去這8年過去這8年所佔的比例是上升還是下降\n\n13\n00:04:46,339 --> 00:05:04,284\n給中央統統備案給地方的對戰國稅的比例是上升還下降戰國稅這個部分我不大知道下降我直接跟你講下降因為我全部都算完了我現在啦我只是要提醒你的注意啊當初民進黨在野的時候啊很有理想性啊\n\n14\n00:05:05,917 --> 00:05:30,484\n財政收支劃分法一定要修啊要不然地方政府沒有充足的財源發展建設啊所以我把民進黨在野的時候啊由您跟柯建民所領銜的修法版本我就拿出來複習大家的建議複習大家的記憶還比起來跟今年國會修的啊到底哪一個從國稅的部分拿到綜合統籌分配款多啊您作為\n\n15\n00:05:31,384 --> 00:05:42,368\n一、二年提的版本也被否決了一、二年民進黨才40級的委員所以民進黨2016年是多數的時候為什麼不肯堅持自己在野的理想繼續拿出來呢2016年的時候民進黨過半沒有?過半了嘛\n\n16\n00:05:52,811 --> 00:06:07,807\n你如果還堅持2012年的理想2016年你拿你的版本出來表決當初的國會的人數比例以及還會有六都的時候整個包括一種預算的收入過去大概一兆左右\n\n17\n00:06:14,571 --> 00:06:36,482\n現在所有的網友都知道了啦您不用講你的標準答案人家都幫你先預想好了啦來你作為屏東縣的老縣長你知不知道限制屏東縣每一年中央統籌分配款分多少錢目前我所知道好像是數字上我不太精準好像是200多億吧限制是多少錢\n\n18\n00:06:37,509 --> 00:06:59,382\n中央統統分配給屏東的對對對給屏東縣您作為屏東縣的老縣長應該很熟啊我我我應該看一下數字啊好像是123億啊123喔對你知道修法過了以後屏東分多少錢嗎130幾全國分配最少的我就跟你講你要把123億再加上什麼再加上134億這123億是基本支出是增加134億嘛增加是最少的增加134億嘛增加134億你滿不滿意當然不滿意你也不滿意嘛對\n\n19\n00:07:07,367 --> 00:07:34,624\n所以你認為屏東應該分更多嗎那當然好那這樣子就獲制共識了吧就代表的是說從屏東的立場限制如果修法以後屏東還分太少那限制就是分更少啦那個委員屏東比其他的非六都的限制份額還要少這第一個第二個呢我們還是希望均衡台灣不是給獨厚來個限制尤其六都我相信我相信六都占了中央政府總預算的62%的預算\n\n20\n00:07:36,465 --> 00:08:03,454\n所有的鄉親報不平我相信全國的民眾都聽到了非常好作為屏東的老縣長就是要有這種態度就是要有這種氣魄來我們繼續再往下看我們總統府有執政也有國策顧問我們大家不知道我們的執政跟國策顧問到底是拿來做什麼的我們的賴清德總統請他自己的舅舅當執政你覺得這是用人為財還是用人為親\n\n21\n00:08:05,723 --> 00:08:32,454\n呃我想這一點我們尊重總統的用人尊重總統的用人嘛他一定是用人為財那從你自己心裡面這個是用人為財還用人為欽同知政過去你總不能因人廢言因人因黨廢言沒有沒有因為他是在基隆我對於同友基隆市慶安宮的主任委員啊我是很尊敬啊年紀這麼高了還願意當主任委員我非常尊敬啊但是\n\n22\n00:08:33,887 --> 00:08:51,737\n總統府的執政總統府的國策顧問那是國家的名器啊但是這是國家的名器有幾值無幾值是另外一回事啦執政跟國策顧問是國家的名器啦這個是用人為財還是用人為親你說你尊重總統我們大家都尊重總統嘛但問題是什麼\n\n23\n00:08:53,078 --> 00:09:22,020\n台灣是一個民主法治的社會啊台灣不是北京的極權政體啊總統所聘的資政他的標準全國人民有沒有發表意見的權利以公益社會貢獻的導向為主以童勇這樣的一個老先生他過去在基隆在親安宮也好或是在公益的表現上我相信基隆人都心知肚明也是作為基隆相關的代表的一個之一所以聘為資政\n\n24\n00:09:23,081 --> 00:09:40,508\n非常好用這樣的一個態度是是是好你說得非常好那下一位這位國策顧問呢有做假藥製造偽造罪偽藥罪判刑6個月非法賣藥2016喔這是從2011就偽藥罪喔2016非法賣藥結果這樣的人聘做國策顧問來秘書長你覺得這是用人為財嗎\n\n25\n00:09:49,805 --> 00:09:53,089\n這個是社會的表率嗎?這是我們國家國策顧問的標準嗎?\n\n26\n00:09:54,833 --> 00:10:23,883\n我想這個康雲碩先生勒是有他在地方公益的表現但至於他個人的所謂的這種11年16年20年這種相關的這個部分勒基本上勒我不大知道但我們也沒有這就是公開資訊啦奇怪你們在聘國策顧問的時候這個人的背景不用先查核喔如果連這個都不知道就聘他當國策顧問完蛋了我們總統府的幕僚作業也太草率了吧\n\n27\n00:10:24,926 --> 00:10:48,993\n不會啦不會欸你怎麼會說你不知道這公開資訊欸我不知道這個不是我派私家偵探去查出來的欸我怎麼知道這個你只要上判決稍微查一下就知道了欸賣過假藥非法賣藥賣了這麼多年這麼有名的人來你覺得聘這樣的人當國策顧問啊是不是符合總統府用人的標準\n\n28\n00:10:50,365 --> 00:11:01,420\n我我想總統是有一套啦他個人總統是哪一套現在全國人民很困惑啊你說總統有一套總統是哪一套他已經是用人為財但是這個是用人為財喔這是令全台灣社會大開眼界過去他個人怎麼樣的行為過去不重要嘛\n\n29\n00:11:08,609 --> 00:11:09,289\n這個人因為性騷辭掉了資政\n\n30\n00:11:38,706 --> 00:12:04,048\n上一屆總統的時候現在又聘他為執政這個是我們總統府要給全臺灣社會的性平觀念嗎說明一下我想這個原執政後來在去年發生這樣的狀況他就辭掉了嘛對然後後來在整個調查裡面已經還了他的公道誰做了調查他們自己內部包括他們自己內部是誰\n\n31\n00:12:06,424 --> 00:12:20,483\n來北市的勞工局也找不到具體的澄清的一個找不到具體澄清的不是啊當初說要去處理的事情是小英基金會啊小英基金會有處理嗎這個委員跟委員報告這個有舉報到台北市勞動局\n\n32\n00:12:21,124 --> 00:12:36,234\n沒有我先問你啦小英基金會自己有沒有處理這個小英基金會內部有沒有處理我不知道奇怪了你們在聘一個人當執政的時候怎麼現在大家聽起來覺得很困惑你聘國策顧問之前發生什麼事不知道聘要當執政的時候\n\n33\n00:12:40,757 --> 00:12:56,150\n然後連小英基金會有沒有處理你也不知道基金會有他基金會運作這個我們不變智慧但公部門臺北市勞動局有去介入調查的部分我們必須尊重臺北市勞動局的介入調查我這樣講好了啦這些相關的爭議喔\n\n34\n00:12:57,671 --> 00:13:21,511\n在媒體上面披露了整個社會大眾在請總統出來做說明啊大家等不到說明嘛大家等不到說明嘛因為要我們總統出來接受媒體訪問是一件超級難度很高的事啦我們立法委員在國會殿堂針對人民關心的事情來對你請教嘛好下一個之前啊您在當立委的時候你也說過嘛\n\n35\n00:13:22,452 --> 00:13:28,164\n國發基金不可以淪為啊!紓困基金應該用法律管理啊!潘秉樹長還記得嗎?當然\n\n36\n00:13:30,663 --> 00:13:54,332\n你的想法有沒有改變還是時空背景又不一樣現在不用用法律管理想法沒有改變所以你還是贊成國發基金不可以作為紓困基金然後要用法律管理是嗎當初的紓困是因為要去做DRAM的一個紓困那完全是一個註冊50萬公司的公司要拿100億所以當初我們在立法院是反對的\n\n37\n00:13:56,332 --> 00:14:21,343\n國發基金不是不能作為這個紓困是不能用這樣的使用要去做規範你剛說國發基金是不能用作紓困所以你是贊成國發基金可以拿來紓困嗎?要用投資啊對嘛所以不能拿來紓困這個是第一個人說嘛然後第二個要用法律管理你的立場沒改變嘛當然是吧現在國發基金不是用法律管理喔\n\n38\n00:14:22,830 --> 00:14:49,411\n他應該有監管單位啊是啊但是是授權下面的就給國發基金管理委員會當初你是要提國發基金管理條例捏但是問題是那時候大家討論沒有辦法啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那\n\n39\n00:14:56,099 --> 00:15:05,123\n對啊,他自己超過10分鐘啊對啊,那你要去跟他抗議嘛好,來,再來我先處理一下12點先處理會議時間依前的宣告上午時間繼續進行至尋答結束及報告事項預算解凍案之處理好\n\n40\n00:15:15,101 --> 00:15:37,947\n我們繼續再往下看國發基金不可以淪為紓困基金但我們政府投資了30億號稱綠能國家隊的聯合債生這家公司我相信秘書長你非常的熟我為什麼說淪為紓困基金投資以前就已經虧損了多少上百億投資以後又虧損了上百億潘秘書長你認為國發基金這樣投資對嗎\n\n41\n00:15:40,987 --> 00:16:02,955\n我認為國發基金是應該站在一些新興產業的投資太陽能這個是新興產業嗎還是夕陽產業過去2016年開始新推的一個產業我相信那是當時的一個執政的一個在未來再開發多元能源他是新興產業還是夕陽產業嗎太陽能電板是新興產業還是夕陽產業這個問題沒這麼困難吧我跟委員報告我是講綠能的發展不是講太陽能面板\n\n42\n00:16:11,492 --> 00:16:38,177\n國發聯合再生就是在做太陽能面板的您不知道嗎我不知道他在做太陽能面板你真的不知道啊我不知道他在做太陽能面板奇怪了你跟這個董事長非常熟啊我就知道你會講這個是啊董事長委員我跟我站在屏東地方政府去招商是這一點是公開的紀錄是所以這不用我任何所以2020年3月18號你跟他在喜來登喜請客樓吃飯談什麼事情\n\n43\n00:16:40,437 --> 00:16:57,787\n我跟委員報告當初呢屏東縣政府做一個地層下限區四個鄉鎮的綠能專區公開招商那因為他是國家隊所以我繼續拜訪希望他來屏東做綠能開發的國際所以你去喜來登的請客樓拜訪他沒錯\n\n44\n00:17:00,375 --> 00:17:21,721\n誰買單的我買單那天是你買單的我請他一次我不知道是哪一次齁那天喜來登請克隆是你買單的我知道是誰提供給你然後在拍照但共同吃飯來來來做招商的並不代表有什麼好沒有關係共同吃飯來做招商並不代表什麼因為啦齁這裡面有非常多的細節\n\n45\n00:17:23,121 --> 00:17:42,856\n包括了當初他去屏東的時候當他去屏東的時候做了什麼事情以及你們幾次參與的時候討論了什麼事情所以我今天就公開請教你我們現在立法院成立了國發基金調查委員會如果調查委員會發函邀請您到委員會來說明您願不願意\n\n46\n00:17:44,457 --> 00:18:07,069\n我不願意因為這不關我的事啊你不願意喔關我什麼事啊欸依照立法院之前不是立法委員跟大法官的憲法判決您認為調查委員會請你你有沒有來的義務我要評估因為你要評估欸等一下不是你法律上有沒有義務這個是一個法律問題如果是法律義務我當然會參加但國發基金怎麼投資你怎麼會找我來問呢\n\n47\n00:18:08,149 --> 00:18:08,369\n我這樣講好了啦\n\n48\n00:18:24,733 --> 00:18:31,457\n我這樣講好了啦針對有關於國發基金有關於國發基金不是吧是不是寒血噴人所以我就請教你們國發基金調查委員會如果邀請你來你願不願意來\n\n49\n00:18:40,623 --> 00:18:44,904\n你已經講了兩年了你永遠沒有結果但只會含沙含沙射影然後我跟你講啦我從來不含沙射影的啦你說話都是有評有據嘛你有沒有去吃這個飯嘛談了什麼嘛我問了很久啊這個攤在陽光下從來不願意公開回覆今天在這邊就是公開之前呢你是在含沙射影問什麼對號入座我\n\n50\n00:19:04,628 --> 00:19:12,070\n沒有任何的我就講今天在立法院講話要負責任的黃委員他們如果涉及不法他們能馬上下台如果沒有涉及不法黃委員請你也有勇氣的辭職下台我之前開的記者會沒有言論免責權我們時間的關係是不是黃委員的質詢我們請尊重後面的委員我之前開記者會沒有言論免責權喔\n\n51\n00:19:30,854 --> 00:19:34,997\n我如果有誹謗歡迎你去告我你只是在講事態並沒有去指責怎麼樣那如果有怎麼樣請歡迎接下來我們有請黃委員孟凱智先生\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n17338\t18642\t謝謝主席,有請潘秘書長請潘秘書長\n25510\t53338\t委員長委員長早喔財政收支劃分法的修正引發了非常多民進黨的立委或者是縣市首長所謂的反彈那我們的中央政府我相信從最高層的總統到行政院院長都有表示過一些看法我們來回顧一下2012年的時候民進黨中央黨部召開了記者會真抱歉我們就是這麼窮\n55098\t72510\t訴求中央政府不能再集權又集錢這場記者會你有參與吧?有有嘛當時您的身份是什麼?民進黨黨團的成員2012年當初你是民進黨黨團幹部的時候你們有沒有提出財政收支劃分法的修法?\n73527\t82114\t我印象中好像有提但是沒辦法通過因為每一個縣市的故意沒有關係我們一樣一樣來你印象中有提嘛你自己提過的法案你應該記得嘛我來幫你複習一下\n87163\t104829\t這是在2012年4月25號立法院的公報民主進步黨立院黨團柯建民潘孟安陳亭飛當初您的職位應該是幹事長嗎沒錯好來我們來看一下當初民進黨在野的時候所提出的財政收支劃分法我們先關注\n105709\t124991\t目前引發很多討論的中央跟地方的垂直分配中央跟地方垂直分配我相信秘書長很熟啦您之前也提案要修財政收支劃分法嘛來那個時候民主進步黨黨團的版本中央跟地方的垂直分配要怎麼修還記不記得\n126964\t141379\t呃這個要看過去的資料要修一定要修我到目前為止我都幫你整理出來了那個時候民進黨的主張是說所得稅本來是10%拿來做中央統籌分配款主張要到20%\n142620\t158473\t而且增加一個直轄市要多10%那個時候只有5都現在有6都了所以按照民進黨那個時候您所提出來的版本中央統籌分配款大概要從10%到30%這是第1%第二個貨物稅的部分沒有動第三個營業稅的部分從40%到100%跟我們這一次國會所通過的法律40%到100%是不是一樣\n172421\t201921\t我想委員這個時空背景不一樣我知道時空背景當然不一樣現在目前我們中央政府總預算裡面61%都是用在六都其他非六都的限制才用了24%的分配現在我在跟你講的是垂直分配的問題你只要focus在你那個時候提出來的版本就好了來最後一個那個時候你們是不是還要求燕九歲81%也要列入中央統籌分配款\n202721\t226249\t是吧這是你提出來的立法版本嗎?是沒錯所以我們把2024年國會三讀通過的法案跟2012年民主進步黨由您跟柯建民所領銜提案的法案做兩相對比阿藍秘書長你覺得這兩個版本中央統籌分配款要分給地方政府\n227423\t255939\t挖得比較多的是哪一個版本?呃我我不這麼認為齁委員我跟你報告齁不好意思喔我的請教是說這兩個版本挖得比較多的是哪一個版本因為經過12年12年前2011年對中央給地方政府不對中央給地方政府才5000億然後2024年2025年未來中央給地方政府是一兆1000多億完全不一樣我要跟秘書長講的事情齁是你的論點\n257060\t283587\t我在財政委員會啊直接問過財政部部長啊你們在談數字的時候啊因為我雖然是學法律的但是啊我是用統計的方法在研究法律啊你不要看絕對值啊母數是多少講清楚啊你佔的percentage現在中央政府給地方政府中央統籌分配款過去這8年過去這8年所佔的比例是上升還是下降\n286339\t304284\t給中央統統備案給地方的對戰國稅的比例是上升還下降戰國稅這個部分我不大知道下降我直接跟你講下降因為我全部都算完了我現在啦我只是要提醒你的注意啊當初民進黨在野的時候啊很有理想性啊\n305917\t330484\t財政收支劃分法一定要修啊要不然地方政府沒有充足的財源發展建設啊所以我把民進黨在野的時候啊由您跟柯建民所領銜的修法版本我就拿出來複習大家的建議複習大家的記憶還比起來跟今年國會修的啊到底哪一個從國稅的部分拿到綜合統籌分配款多啊您作為\n331384\t342368\t一、二年提的版本也被否決了一、二年民進黨才40級的委員所以民進黨2016年是多數的時候為什麼不肯堅持自己在野的理想繼續拿出來呢2016年的時候民進黨過半沒有?過半了嘛\n352811\t367807\t你如果還堅持2012年的理想2016年你拿你的版本出來表決當初的國會的人數比例以及還會有六都的時候整個包括一種預算的收入過去大概一兆左右\n374571\t396482\t現在所有的網友都知道了啦您不用講你的標準答案人家都幫你先預想好了啦來你作為屏東縣的老縣長你知不知道限制屏東縣每一年中央統籌分配款分多少錢目前我所知道好像是數字上我不太精準好像是200多億吧限制是多少錢\n397509\t419382\t中央統統分配給屏東的對對對給屏東縣您作為屏東縣的老縣長應該很熟啊我我我應該看一下數字啊好像是123億啊123喔對你知道修法過了以後屏東分多少錢嗎130幾全國分配最少的我就跟你講你要把123億再加上什麼再加上134億這123億是基本支出是增加134億嘛增加是最少的增加134億嘛增加134億你滿不滿意當然不滿意你也不滿意嘛對\n427367\t454624\t所以你認為屏東應該分更多嗎那當然好那這樣子就獲制共識了吧就代表的是說從屏東的立場限制如果修法以後屏東還分太少那限制就是分更少啦那個委員屏東比其他的非六都的限制份額還要少這第一個第二個呢我們還是希望均衡台灣不是給獨厚來個限制尤其六都我相信我相信六都占了中央政府總預算的62%的預算\n456465\t483454\t所有的鄉親報不平我相信全國的民眾都聽到了非常好作為屏東的老縣長就是要有這種態度就是要有這種氣魄來我們繼續再往下看我們總統府有執政也有國策顧問我們大家不知道我們的執政跟國策顧問到底是拿來做什麼的我們的賴清德總統請他自己的舅舅當執政你覺得這是用人為財還是用人為親\n485723\t512454\t呃我想這一點我們尊重總統的用人尊重總統的用人嘛他一定是用人為財那從你自己心裡面這個是用人為財還用人為欽同知政過去你總不能因人廢言因人因黨廢言沒有沒有因為他是在基隆我對於同友基隆市慶安宮的主任委員啊我是很尊敬啊年紀這麼高了還願意當主任委員我非常尊敬啊但是\n513887\t531737\t總統府的執政總統府的國策顧問那是國家的名器啊但是這是國家的名器有幾值無幾值是另外一回事啦執政跟國策顧問是國家的名器啦這個是用人為財還是用人為親你說你尊重總統我們大家都尊重總統嘛但問題是什麼\n533078\t562020\t台灣是一個民主法治的社會啊台灣不是北京的極權政體啊總統所聘的資政他的標準全國人民有沒有發表意見的權利以公益社會貢獻的導向為主以童勇這樣的一個老先生他過去在基隆在親安宮也好或是在公益的表現上我相信基隆人都心知肚明也是作為基隆相關的代表的一個之一所以聘為資政\n563081\t580508\t非常好用這樣的一個態度是是是好你說得非常好那下一位這位國策顧問呢有做假藥製造偽造罪偽藥罪判刑6個月非法賣藥2016喔這是從2011就偽藥罪喔2016非法賣藥結果這樣的人聘做國策顧問來秘書長你覺得這是用人為財嗎\n589805\t593089\t這個是社會的表率嗎?這是我們國家國策顧問的標準嗎?\n594833\t623883\t我想這個康雲碩先生勒是有他在地方公益的表現但至於他個人的所謂的這種11年16年20年這種相關的這個部分勒基本上勒我不大知道但我們也沒有這就是公開資訊啦奇怪你們在聘國策顧問的時候這個人的背景不用先查核喔如果連這個都不知道就聘他當國策顧問完蛋了我們總統府的幕僚作業也太草率了吧\n624926\t648993\t不會啦不會欸你怎麼會說你不知道這公開資訊欸我不知道這個不是我派私家偵探去查出來的欸我怎麼知道這個你只要上判決稍微查一下就知道了欸賣過假藥非法賣藥賣了這麼多年這麼有名的人來你覺得聘這樣的人當國策顧問啊是不是符合總統府用人的標準\n650365\t661420\t我 我想總統是有一套啦他個人總統是哪一套現在全國人民很困惑啊你說總統有一套總統是哪一套他已經是用人為財但是這個是用人為財喔這是令全台灣社會大開眼界過去他個人怎麼樣的行為過去不重要嘛\n668609\t669289\t這個人因為性騷 辭掉了資政\n698706\t724048\t上一屆總統的時候現在又聘他為執政這個是我們總統府要給全臺灣社會的性平觀念嗎說明一下我想這個原執政後來在去年發生這樣的狀況他就辭掉了嘛對然後後來在整個調查裡面已經還了他的公道誰做了調查他們自己內部包括他們自己內部是誰\n726424\t740483\t來北市的勞工局也找不到具體的澄清的一個找不到具體澄清的不是啊當初說要去處理的事情是小英基金會啊小英基金會有處理嗎這個委員跟委員報告這個有舉報到台北市勞動局\n741124\t756234\t沒有我先問你啦小英基金會自己有沒有處理這個小英基金會內部有沒有處理我不知道奇怪了你們在聘一個人當執政的時候怎麼現在大家聽起來覺得很困惑你聘國策顧問之前發生什麼事不知道聘要當執政的時候\n760757\t776150\t然後連小英基金會有沒有處理你也不知道基金會有他基金會運作這個我們不變智慧但公部門臺北市勞動局有去介入調查的部分我們必須尊重臺北市勞動局的介入調查我這樣講好了啦這些相關的爭議喔\n777671\t801511\t在媒體上面披露了整個社會大眾在請總統出來做說明啊大家等不到說明嘛大家等不到說明嘛因為要我們總統出來接受媒體訪問是一件超級難度很高的事啦我們立法委員在國會殿堂針對人民關心的事情來對你請教嘛好下一個之前啊您在當立委的時候你也說過嘛\n802452\t808164\t國發基金不可以淪為啊!紓困基金應該用法律管理啊!潘秉樹長還記得嗎?當然\n810663\t834332\t你的想法有沒有改變還是時空背景又不一樣現在不用用法律管理想法沒有改變所以你還是贊成國發基金不可以作為紓困基金然後要用法律管理是嗎當初的紓困是因為要去做DRAM的一個紓困那完全是一個註冊50萬公司的公司要拿100億所以當初我們在立法院是反對的\n836332\t861343\t國發基金不是不能作為這個紓困是不能用這樣的使用要去做規範你剛說國發基金是不能用作紓困所以你是贊成國發基金可以拿來紓困嗎?要用投資啊對嘛所以不能拿來紓困這個是第一個人說嘛然後第二個要用法律管理你的立場沒改變嘛當然是吧現在國發基金不是用法律管理喔\n862830\t889411\t他應該有監管單位啊是啊但是是授權下面的就給國發基金管理委員會當初你是要提國發基金管理條例捏但是問題是那時候大家討論沒有辦法啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那\n896099\t905123\t對啊,他自己超過10分鐘啊對啊,那你要去跟他抗議嘛好,來,再來我先處理一下12點先處理會議時間依前的宣告上午時間繼續進行至尋答結束及報告事項預算解凍案之處理好\n915101\t937947\t我們繼續再往下看國發基金不可以淪為紓困基金但我們政府投資了30億號稱綠能國家隊的聯合債生這家公司我相信秘書長你非常的熟我為什麼說淪為紓困基金投資以前就已經虧損了多少上百億投資以後又虧損了上百億潘秘書長你認為國發基金這樣投資對嗎\n940987\t962955\t我認為國發基金是應該站在一些新興產業的投資太陽能這個是新興產業嗎還是夕陽產業過去2016年開始新推的一個產業我相信那是當時的一個執政的一個在未來再開發多元能源他是新興產業還是夕陽產業嗎太陽能電板是新興產業還是夕陽產業這個問題沒這麼困難吧我跟委員報告我是講綠能的發展不是講太陽能面板\n971492\t998177\t國發聯合再生就是在做太陽能面板的您不知道嗎我不知道他在做太陽能面板你真的不知道啊我不知道他在做太陽能面板奇怪了你跟這個董事長非常熟啊我就知道你會講這個是啊董事長委員我跟我站在屏東地方政府去招商是這一點是公開的紀錄是所以這不用我任何所以2020年3月18號你跟他在喜來登喜請客樓吃飯談什麼事情\n1000437\t1017787\t我跟委員報告當初呢屏東縣政府做一個地層下限區四個鄉鎮的綠能專區公開招商那因為他是國家隊所以我繼續拜訪希望他來屏東做綠能開發的國際所以你去喜來登的請客樓拜訪他沒錯\n1020375\t1041721\t誰買單的我買單那天是你買單的我請他一次我不知道是哪一次齁那天喜來登請克隆是你買單的我知道是誰提供給你然後在拍照但共同吃飯來來來做招商的並不代表有什麼好沒有關係共同吃飯來做招商並不代表什麼因為啦齁這裡面有非常多的細節\n1043121\t1062856\t包括了當初他去屏東的時候當他去屏東的時候做了什麼事情以及你們幾次參與的時候討論了什麼事情所以我今天就公開請教你我們現在立法院成立了國發基金調查委員會如果調查委員會發函邀請您到委員會來說明您願不願意\n1064457\t1087069\t我不願意因為這不關我的事啊你不願意喔關我什麼事啊欸依照立法院之前不是立法委員跟大法官的憲法判決您認為調查委員會請你你有沒有來的義務我要評估因為你要評估欸等一下不是你法律上有沒有義務這個是一個法律問題如果是法律義務我當然會參加但國發基金怎麼投資你怎麼會找我來問呢\n1088149\t1088369\t我這樣講好了啦\n1104733\t1111457\t我這樣講好了啦針對有關於國發基金有關於國發基金不是吧是不是寒血噴人所以我就請教你們國發基金調查委員會如果邀請你來你願不願意來\n1120623\t1124904\t你已經講了兩年了你永遠沒有結果但只會含沙含沙射影然後我跟你講啦我從來不含沙射影的啦你說話都是有評有據嘛你有沒有去吃這個飯嘛談了什麼嘛我問了很久啊這個攤在陽光下從來不願意公開回覆今天在這邊就是公開之前呢你是在含沙射影問什麼對號入座我\n1144628\t1152070\t沒有任何的我就講今天在立法院講話要負責任的黃委員他們如果涉及不法他們能馬上下台如果沒有涉及不法黃委員請你也有勇氣的辭職下台我之前開的記者會沒有言論免責權我們時間的關係是不是黃委員的質詢我們請尊重後面的委員我之前開記者會沒有言論免責權喔\n1170854\t1174997\t我如果有誹謗歡迎你去告我你只是在講事態並沒有去指責怎麼樣那如果有怎麼樣請歡迎接下來我們有請黃委員孟凱智先生\n","txt":"謝謝主席,有請潘秘書長請潘秘書長\n委員長委員長早喔財政收支劃分法的修正引發了非常多民進黨的立委或者是縣市首長所謂的反彈那我們的中央政府我相信從最高層的總統到行政院院長都有表示過一些看法我們來回顧一下2012年的時候民進黨中央黨部召開了記者會真抱歉我們就是這麼窮\n訴求中央政府不能再集權又集錢這場記者會你有參與吧?有有嘛當時您的身份是什麼?民進黨黨團的成員2012年當初你是民進黨黨團幹部的時候你們有沒有提出財政收支劃分法的修法?\n我印象中好像有提但是沒辦法通過因為每一個縣市的故意沒有關係我們一樣一樣來你印象中有提嘛你自己提過的法案你應該記得嘛我來幫你複習一下\n這是在2012年4月25號立法院的公報民主進步黨立院黨團柯建民潘孟安陳亭飛當初您的職位應該是幹事長嗎沒錯好來我們來看一下當初民進黨在野的時候所提出的財政收支劃分法我們先關注\n目前引發很多討論的中央跟地方的垂直分配中央跟地方垂直分配我相信秘書長很熟啦您之前也提案要修財政收支劃分法嘛來那個時候民主進步黨黨團的版本中央跟地方的垂直分配要怎麼修還記不記得\n呃這個要看過去的資料要修一定要修我到目前為止我都幫你整理出來了那個時候民進黨的主張是說所得稅本來是10%拿來做中央統籌分配款主張要到20%\n而且增加一個直轄市要多10%那個時候只有5都現在有6都了所以按照民進黨那個時候您所提出來的版本中央統籌分配款大概要從10%到30%這是第1%第二個貨物稅的部分沒有動第三個營業稅的部分從40%到100%跟我們這一次國會所通過的法律40%到100%是不是一樣\n我想委員這個時空背景不一樣我知道時空背景當然不一樣現在目前我們中央政府總預算裡面61%都是用在六都其他非六都的限制才用了24%的分配現在我在跟你講的是垂直分配的問題你只要focus在你那個時候提出來的版本就好了來最後一個那個時候你們是不是還要求燕九歲81%也要列入中央統籌分配款\n是吧這是你提出來的立法版本嗎?是沒錯所以我們把2024年國會三讀通過的法案跟2012年民主進步黨由您跟柯建民所領銜提案的法案做兩相對比阿藍秘書長你覺得這兩個版本中央統籌分配款要分給地方政府\n挖得比較多的是哪一個版本?呃我我不這麼認為齁委員我跟你報告齁不好意思喔我的請教是說這兩個版本挖得比較多的是哪一個版本因為經過12年12年前2011年對中央給地方政府不對中央給地方政府才5000億然後2024年2025年未來中央給地方政府是一兆1000多億完全不一樣我要跟秘書長講的事情齁是你的論點\n我在財政委員會啊直接問過財政部部長啊你們在談數字的時候啊因為我雖然是學法律的但是啊我是用統計的方法在研究法律啊你不要看絕對值啊母數是多少講清楚啊你佔的percentage現在中央政府給地方政府中央統籌分配款過去這8年過去這8年所佔的比例是上升還是下降\n給中央統統備案給地方的對戰國稅的比例是上升還下降戰國稅這個部分我不大知道下降我直接跟你講下降因為我全部都算完了我現在啦我只是要提醒你的注意啊當初民進黨在野的時候啊很有理想性啊\n財政收支劃分法一定要修啊要不然地方政府沒有充足的財源發展建設啊所以我把民進黨在野的時候啊由您跟柯建民所領銜的修法版本我就拿出來複習大家的建議複習大家的記憶還比起來跟今年國會修的啊到底哪一個從國稅的部分拿到綜合統籌分配款多啊您作為\n一、二年提的版本也被否決了一、二年民進黨才40級的委員所以民進黨2016年是多數的時候為什麼不肯堅持自己在野的理想繼續拿出來呢2016年的時候民進黨過半沒有?過半了嘛\n你如果還堅持2012年的理想2016年你拿你的版本出來表決當初的國會的人數比例以及還會有六都的時候整個包括一種預算的收入過去大概一兆左右\n現在所有的網友都知道了啦您不用講你的標準答案人家都幫你先預想好了啦來你作為屏東縣的老縣長你知不知道限制屏東縣每一年中央統籌分配款分多少錢目前我所知道好像是數字上我不太精準好像是200多億吧限制是多少錢\n中央統統分配給屏東的對對對給屏東縣您作為屏東縣的老縣長應該很熟啊我我我應該看一下數字啊好像是123億啊123喔對你知道修法過了以後屏東分多少錢嗎130幾全國分配最少的我就跟你講你要把123億再加上什麼再加上134億這123億是基本支出是增加134億嘛增加是最少的增加134億嘛增加134億你滿不滿意當然不滿意你也不滿意嘛對\n所以你認為屏東應該分更多嗎那當然好那這樣子就獲制共識了吧就代表的是說從屏東的立場限制如果修法以後屏東還分太少那限制就是分更少啦那個委員屏東比其他的非六都的限制份額還要少這第一個第二個呢我們還是希望均衡台灣不是給獨厚來個限制尤其六都我相信我相信六都占了中央政府總預算的62%的預算\n所有的鄉親報不平我相信全國的民眾都聽到了非常好作為屏東的老縣長就是要有這種態度就是要有這種氣魄來我們繼續再往下看我們總統府有執政也有國策顧問我們大家不知道我們的執政跟國策顧問到底是拿來做什麼的我們的賴清德總統請他自己的舅舅當執政你覺得這是用人為財還是用人為親\n呃我想這一點我們尊重總統的用人尊重總統的用人嘛他一定是用人為財那從你自己心裡面這個是用人為財還用人為欽同知政過去你總不能因人廢言因人因黨廢言沒有沒有因為他是在基隆我對於同友基隆市慶安宮的主任委員啊我是很尊敬啊年紀這麼高了還願意當主任委員我非常尊敬啊但是\n總統府的執政總統府的國策顧問那是國家的名器啊但是這是國家的名器有幾值無幾值是另外一回事啦執政跟國策顧問是國家的名器啦這個是用人為財還是用人為親你說你尊重總統我們大家都尊重總統嘛但問題是什麼\n台灣是一個民主法治的社會啊台灣不是北京的極權政體啊總統所聘的資政他的標準全國人民有沒有發表意見的權利以公益社會貢獻的導向為主以童勇這樣的一個老先生他過去在基隆在親安宮也好或是在公益的表現上我相信基隆人都心知肚明也是作為基隆相關的代表的一個之一所以聘為資政\n非常好用這樣的一個態度是是是好你說得非常好那下一位這位國策顧問呢有做假藥製造偽造罪偽藥罪判刑6個月非法賣藥2016喔這是從2011就偽藥罪喔2016非法賣藥結果這樣的人聘做國策顧問來秘書長你覺得這是用人為財嗎\n這個是社會的表率嗎?這是我們國家國策顧問的標準嗎?\n我想這個康雲碩先生勒是有他在地方公益的表現但至於他個人的所謂的這種11年16年20年這種相關的這個部分勒基本上勒我不大知道但我們也沒有這就是公開資訊啦奇怪你們在聘國策顧問的時候這個人的背景不用先查核喔如果連這個都不知道就聘他當國策顧問完蛋了我們總統府的幕僚作業也太草率了吧\n不會啦不會欸你怎麼會說你不知道這公開資訊欸我不知道這個不是我派私家偵探去查出來的欸我怎麼知道這個你只要上判決稍微查一下就知道了欸賣過假藥非法賣藥賣了這麼多年這麼有名的人來你覺得聘這樣的人當國策顧問啊是不是符合總統府用人的標準\n我 我想總統是有一套啦他個人總統是哪一套現在全國人民很困惑啊你說總統有一套總統是哪一套他已經是用人為財但是這個是用人為財喔這是令全台灣社會大開眼界過去他個人怎麼樣的行為過去不重要嘛\n這個人因為性騷 辭掉了資政\n上一屆總統的時候現在又聘他為執政這個是我們總統府要給全臺灣社會的性平觀念嗎說明一下我想這個原執政後來在去年發生這樣的狀況他就辭掉了嘛對然後後來在整個調查裡面已經還了他的公道誰做了調查他們自己內部包括他們自己內部是誰\n來北市的勞工局也找不到具體的澄清的一個找不到具體澄清的不是啊當初說要去處理的事情是小英基金會啊小英基金會有處理嗎這個委員跟委員報告這個有舉報到台北市勞動局\n沒有我先問你啦小英基金會自己有沒有處理這個小英基金會內部有沒有處理我不知道奇怪了你們在聘一個人當執政的時候怎麼現在大家聽起來覺得很困惑你聘國策顧問之前發生什麼事不知道聘要當執政的時候\n然後連小英基金會有沒有處理你也不知道基金會有他基金會運作這個我們不變智慧但公部門臺北市勞動局有去介入調查的部分我們必須尊重臺北市勞動局的介入調查我這樣講好了啦這些相關的爭議喔\n在媒體上面披露了整個社會大眾在請總統出來做說明啊大家等不到說明嘛大家等不到說明嘛因為要我們總統出來接受媒體訪問是一件超級難度很高的事啦我們立法委員在國會殿堂針對人民關心的事情來對你請教嘛好下一個之前啊您在當立委的時候你也說過嘛\n國發基金不可以淪為啊!紓困基金應該用法律管理啊!潘秉樹長還記得嗎?當然\n你的想法有沒有改變還是時空背景又不一樣現在不用用法律管理想法沒有改變所以你還是贊成國發基金不可以作為紓困基金然後要用法律管理是嗎當初的紓困是因為要去做DRAM的一個紓困那完全是一個註冊50萬公司的公司要拿100億所以當初我們在立法院是反對的\n國發基金不是不能作為這個紓困是不能用這樣的使用要去做規範你剛說國發基金是不能用作紓困所以你是贊成國發基金可以拿來紓困嗎?要用投資啊對嘛所以不能拿來紓困這個是第一個人說嘛然後第二個要用法律管理你的立場沒改變嘛當然是吧現在國發基金不是用法律管理喔\n他應該有監管單位啊是啊但是是授權下面的就給國發基金管理委員會當初你是要提國發基金管理條例捏但是問題是那時候大家討論沒有辦法啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那\n對啊,他自己超過10分鐘啊對啊,那你要去跟他抗議嘛好,來,再來我先處理一下12點先處理會議時間依前的宣告上午時間繼續進行至尋答結束及報告事項預算解凍案之處理好\n我們繼續再往下看國發基金不可以淪為紓困基金但我們政府投資了30億號稱綠能國家隊的聯合債生這家公司我相信秘書長你非常的熟我為什麼說淪為紓困基金投資以前就已經虧損了多少上百億投資以後又虧損了上百億潘秘書長你認為國發基金這樣投資對嗎\n我認為國發基金是應該站在一些新興產業的投資太陽能這個是新興產業嗎還是夕陽產業過去2016年開始新推的一個產業我相信那是當時的一個執政的一個在未來再開發多元能源他是新興產業還是夕陽產業嗎太陽能電板是新興產業還是夕陽產業這個問題沒這麼困難吧我跟委員報告我是講綠能的發展不是講太陽能面板\n國發聯合再生就是在做太陽能面板的您不知道嗎我不知道他在做太陽能面板你真的不知道啊我不知道他在做太陽能面板奇怪了你跟這個董事長非常熟啊我就知道你會講這個是啊董事長委員我跟我站在屏東地方政府去招商是這一點是公開的紀錄是所以這不用我任何所以2020年3月18號你跟他在喜來登喜請客樓吃飯談什麼事情\n我跟委員報告當初呢屏東縣政府做一個地層下限區四個鄉鎮的綠能專區公開招商那因為他是國家隊所以我繼續拜訪希望他來屏東做綠能開發的國際所以你去喜來登的請客樓拜訪他沒錯\n誰買單的我買單那天是你買單的我請他一次我不知道是哪一次齁那天喜來登請克隆是你買單的我知道是誰提供給你然後在拍照但共同吃飯來來來做招商的並不代表有什麼好沒有關係共同吃飯來做招商並不代表什麼因為啦齁這裡面有非常多的細節\n包括了當初他去屏東的時候當他去屏東的時候做了什麼事情以及你們幾次參與的時候討論了什麼事情所以我今天就公開請教你我們現在立法院成立了國發基金調查委員會如果調查委員會發函邀請您到委員會來說明您願不願意\n我不願意因為這不關我的事啊你不願意喔關我什麼事啊欸依照立法院之前不是立法委員跟大法官的憲法判決您認為調查委員會請你你有沒有來的義務我要評估因為你要評估欸等一下不是你法律上有沒有義務這個是一個法律問題如果是法律義務我當然會參加但國發基金怎麼投資你怎麼會找我來問呢\n我這樣講好了啦\n我這樣講好了啦針對有關於國發基金有關於國發基金不是吧是不是寒血噴人所以我就請教你們國發基金調查委員會如果邀請你來你願不願意來\n你已經講了兩年了你永遠沒有結果但只會含沙含沙射影然後我跟你講啦我從來不含沙射影的啦你說話都是有評有據嘛你有沒有去吃這個飯嘛談了什麼嘛我問了很久啊這個攤在陽光下從來不願意公開回覆今天在這邊就是公開之前呢你是在含沙射影問什麼對號入座我\n沒有任何的我就講今天在立法院講話要負責任的黃委員他們如果涉及不法他們能馬上下台如果沒有涉及不法黃委員請你也有勇氣的辭職下台我之前開的記者會沒有言論免責權我們時間的關係是不是黃委員的質詢我們請尊重後面的委員我之前開記者會沒有言論免責權喔\n我如果有誹謗歡迎你去告我你只是在講事態並沒有去指責怎麼樣那如果有怎麼樣請歡迎接下來我們有請黃委員孟凱智先生\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:17.338 --> 00:18.642\n謝謝主席,有請潘秘書長請潘秘書長\n\n00:25.510 --> 00:53.338\n委員長委員長早喔財政收支劃分法的修正引發了非常多民進黨的立委或者是縣市首長所謂的反彈那我們的中央政府我相信從最高層的總統到行政院院長都有表示過一些看法我們來回顧一下2012年的時候民進黨中央黨部召開了記者會真抱歉我們就是這麼窮\n\n00:55.098 --> 01:12.510\n訴求中央政府不能再集權又集錢這場記者會你有參與吧?有有嘛當時您的身份是什麼?民進黨黨團的成員2012年當初你是民進黨黨團幹部的時候你們有沒有提出財政收支劃分法的修法?\n\n01:13.527 --> 01:22.114\n我印象中好像有提但是沒辦法通過因為每一個縣市的故意沒有關係我們一樣一樣來你印象中有提嘛你自己提過的法案你應該記得嘛我來幫你複習一下\n\n01:27.163 --> 01:44.829\n這是在2012年4月25號立法院的公報民主進步黨立院黨團柯建民潘孟安陳亭飛當初您的職位應該是幹事長嗎沒錯好來我們來看一下當初民進黨在野的時候所提出的財政收支劃分法我們先關注\n\n01:45.709 --> 02:04.991\n目前引發很多討論的中央跟地方的垂直分配中央跟地方垂直分配我相信秘書長很熟啦您之前也提案要修財政收支劃分法嘛來那個時候民主進步黨黨團的版本中央跟地方的垂直分配要怎麼修還記不記得\n\n02:06.964 --> 02:21.379\n呃這個要看過去的資料要修一定要修我到目前為止我都幫你整理出來了那個時候民進黨的主張是說所得稅本來是10%拿來做中央統籌分配款主張要到20%\n\n02:22.620 --> 02:38.473\n而且增加一個直轄市要多10%那個時候只有5都現在有6都了所以按照民進黨那個時候您所提出來的版本中央統籌分配款大概要從10%到30%這是第1%第二個貨物稅的部分沒有動第三個營業稅的部分從40%到100%跟我們這一次國會所通過的法律40%到100%是不是一樣\n\n02:52.421 --> 03:21.921\n我想委員這個時空背景不一樣我知道時空背景當然不一樣現在目前我們中央政府總預算裡面61%都是用在六都其他非六都的限制才用了24%的分配現在我在跟你講的是垂直分配的問題你只要focus在你那個時候提出來的版本就好了來最後一個那個時候你們是不是還要求燕九歲81%也要列入中央統籌分配款\n\n03:22.721 --> 03:46.249\n是吧這是你提出來的立法版本嗎?是沒錯所以我們把2024年國會三讀通過的法案跟2012年民主進步黨由您跟柯建民所領銜提案的法案做兩相對比阿藍秘書長你覺得這兩個版本中央統籌分配款要分給地方政府\n\n03:47.423 --> 04:15.939\n挖得比較多的是哪一個版本?呃我我不這麼認為齁委員我跟你報告齁不好意思喔我的請教是說這兩個版本挖得比較多的是哪一個版本因為經過12年12年前2011年對中央給地方政府不對中央給地方政府才5000億然後2024年2025年未來中央給地方政府是一兆1000多億完全不一樣我要跟秘書長講的事情齁是你的論點\n\n04:17.060 --> 04:43.587\n我在財政委員會啊直接問過財政部部長啊你們在談數字的時候啊因為我雖然是學法律的但是啊我是用統計的方法在研究法律啊你不要看絕對值啊母數是多少講清楚啊你佔的percentage現在中央政府給地方政府中央統籌分配款過去這8年過去這8年所佔的比例是上升還是下降\n\n04:46.339 --> 05:04.284\n給中央統統備案給地方的對戰國稅的比例是上升還下降戰國稅這個部分我不大知道下降我直接跟你講下降因為我全部都算完了我現在啦我只是要提醒你的注意啊當初民進黨在野的時候啊很有理想性啊\n\n05:05.917 --> 05:30.484\n財政收支劃分法一定要修啊要不然地方政府沒有充足的財源發展建設啊所以我把民進黨在野的時候啊由您跟柯建民所領銜的修法版本我就拿出來複習大家的建議複習大家的記憶還比起來跟今年國會修的啊到底哪一個從國稅的部分拿到綜合統籌分配款多啊您作為\n\n05:31.384 --> 05:42.368\n一、二年提的版本也被否決了一、二年民進黨才40級的委員所以民進黨2016年是多數的時候為什麼不肯堅持自己在野的理想繼續拿出來呢2016年的時候民進黨過半沒有?過半了嘛\n\n05:52.811 --> 06:07.807\n你如果還堅持2012年的理想2016年你拿你的版本出來表決當初的國會的人數比例以及還會有六都的時候整個包括一種預算的收入過去大概一兆左右\n\n06:14.571 --> 06:36.482\n現在所有的網友都知道了啦您不用講你的標準答案人家都幫你先預想好了啦來你作為屏東縣的老縣長你知不知道限制屏東縣每一年中央統籌分配款分多少錢目前我所知道好像是數字上我不太精準好像是200多億吧限制是多少錢\n\n06:37.509 --> 06:59.382\n中央統統分配給屏東的對對對給屏東縣您作為屏東縣的老縣長應該很熟啊我我我應該看一下數字啊好像是123億啊123喔對你知道修法過了以後屏東分多少錢嗎130幾全國分配最少的我就跟你講你要把123億再加上什麼再加上134億這123億是基本支出是增加134億嘛增加是最少的增加134億嘛增加134億你滿不滿意當然不滿意你也不滿意嘛對\n\n07:07.367 --> 07:34.624\n所以你認為屏東應該分更多嗎那當然好那這樣子就獲制共識了吧就代表的是說從屏東的立場限制如果修法以後屏東還分太少那限制就是分更少啦那個委員屏東比其他的非六都的限制份額還要少這第一個第二個呢我們還是希望均衡台灣不是給獨厚來個限制尤其六都我相信我相信六都占了中央政府總預算的62%的預算\n\n07:36.465 --> 08:03.454\n所有的鄉親報不平我相信全國的民眾都聽到了非常好作為屏東的老縣長就是要有這種態度就是要有這種氣魄來我們繼續再往下看我們總統府有執政也有國策顧問我們大家不知道我們的執政跟國策顧問到底是拿來做什麼的我們的賴清德總統請他自己的舅舅當執政你覺得這是用人為財還是用人為親\n\n08:05.723 --> 08:32.454\n呃我想這一點我們尊重總統的用人尊重總統的用人嘛他一定是用人為財那從你自己心裡面這個是用人為財還用人為欽同知政過去你總不能因人廢言因人因黨廢言沒有沒有因為他是在基隆我對於同友基隆市慶安宮的主任委員啊我是很尊敬啊年紀這麼高了還願意當主任委員我非常尊敬啊但是\n\n08:33.887 --> 08:51.737\n總統府的執政總統府的國策顧問那是國家的名器啊但是這是國家的名器有幾值無幾值是另外一回事啦執政跟國策顧問是國家的名器啦這個是用人為財還是用人為親你說你尊重總統我們大家都尊重總統嘛但問題是什麼\n\n08:53.078 --> 09:22.020\n台灣是一個民主法治的社會啊台灣不是北京的極權政體啊總統所聘的資政他的標準全國人民有沒有發表意見的權利以公益社會貢獻的導向為主以童勇這樣的一個老先生他過去在基隆在親安宮也好或是在公益的表現上我相信基隆人都心知肚明也是作為基隆相關的代表的一個之一所以聘為資政\n\n09:23.081 --> 09:40.508\n非常好用這樣的一個態度是是是好你說得非常好那下一位這位國策顧問呢有做假藥製造偽造罪偽藥罪判刑6個月非法賣藥2016喔這是從2011就偽藥罪喔2016非法賣藥結果這樣的人聘做國策顧問來秘書長你覺得這是用人為財嗎\n\n09:49.805 --> 09:53.089\n這個是社會的表率嗎?這是我們國家國策顧問的標準嗎?\n\n09:54.833 --> 10:23.883\n我想這個康雲碩先生勒是有他在地方公益的表現但至於他個人的所謂的這種11年16年20年這種相關的這個部分勒基本上勒我不大知道但我們也沒有這就是公開資訊啦奇怪你們在聘國策顧問的時候這個人的背景不用先查核喔如果連這個都不知道就聘他當國策顧問完蛋了我們總統府的幕僚作業也太草率了吧\n\n10:24.926 --> 10:48.993\n不會啦不會欸你怎麼會說你不知道這公開資訊欸我不知道這個不是我派私家偵探去查出來的欸我怎麼知道這個你只要上判決稍微查一下就知道了欸賣過假藥非法賣藥賣了這麼多年這麼有名的人來你覺得聘這樣的人當國策顧問啊是不是符合總統府用人的標準\n\n10:50.365 --> 11:01.420\n我我想總統是有一套啦他個人總統是哪一套現在全國人民很困惑啊你說總統有一套總統是哪一套他已經是用人為財但是這個是用人為財喔這是令全台灣社會大開眼界過去他個人怎麼樣的行為過去不重要嘛\n\n11:08.609 --> 11:09.289\n這個人因為性騷辭掉了資政\n\n11:38.706 --> 12:04.048\n上一屆總統的時候現在又聘他為執政這個是我們總統府要給全臺灣社會的性平觀念嗎說明一下我想這個原執政後來在去年發生這樣的狀況他就辭掉了嘛對然後後來在整個調查裡面已經還了他的公道誰做了調查他們自己內部包括他們自己內部是誰\n\n12:06.424 --> 12:20.483\n來北市的勞工局也找不到具體的澄清的一個找不到具體澄清的不是啊當初說要去處理的事情是小英基金會啊小英基金會有處理嗎這個委員跟委員報告這個有舉報到台北市勞動局\n\n12:21.124 --> 12:36.234\n沒有我先問你啦小英基金會自己有沒有處理這個小英基金會內部有沒有處理我不知道奇怪了你們在聘一個人當執政的時候怎麼現在大家聽起來覺得很困惑你聘國策顧問之前發生什麼事不知道聘要當執政的時候\n\n12:40.757 --> 12:56.150\n然後連小英基金會有沒有處理你也不知道基金會有他基金會運作這個我們不變智慧但公部門臺北市勞動局有去介入調查的部分我們必須尊重臺北市勞動局的介入調查我這樣講好了啦這些相關的爭議喔\n\n12:57.671 --> 13:21.511\n在媒體上面披露了整個社會大眾在請總統出來做說明啊大家等不到說明嘛大家等不到說明嘛因為要我們總統出來接受媒體訪問是一件超級難度很高的事啦我們立法委員在國會殿堂針對人民關心的事情來對你請教嘛好下一個之前啊您在當立委的時候你也說過嘛\n\n13:22.452 --> 13:28.164\n國發基金不可以淪為啊!紓困基金應該用法律管理啊!潘秉樹長還記得嗎?當然\n\n13:30.663 --> 13:54.332\n你的想法有沒有改變還是時空背景又不一樣現在不用用法律管理想法沒有改變所以你還是贊成國發基金不可以作為紓困基金然後要用法律管理是嗎當初的紓困是因為要去做DRAM的一個紓困那完全是一個註冊50萬公司的公司要拿100億所以當初我們在立法院是反對的\n\n13:56.332 --> 14:21.343\n國發基金不是不能作為這個紓困是不能用這樣的使用要去做規範你剛說國發基金是不能用作紓困所以你是贊成國發基金可以拿來紓困嗎?要用投資啊對嘛所以不能拿來紓困這個是第一個人說嘛然後第二個要用法律管理你的立場沒改變嘛當然是吧現在國發基金不是用法律管理喔\n\n14:22.830 --> 14:49.411\n他應該有監管單位啊是啊但是是授權下面的就給國發基金管理委員會當初你是要提國發基金管理條例捏但是問題是那時候大家討論沒有辦法啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊那\n\n14:56.099 --> 15:05.123\n對啊,他自己超過10分鐘啊對啊,那你要去跟他抗議嘛好,來,再來我先處理一下12點先處理會議時間依前的宣告上午時間繼續進行至尋答結束及報告事項預算解凍案之處理好\n\n15:15.101 --> 15:37.947\n我們繼續再往下看國發基金不可以淪為紓困基金但我們政府投資了30億號稱綠能國家隊的聯合債生這家公司我相信秘書長你非常的熟我為什麼說淪為紓困基金投資以前就已經虧損了多少上百億投資以後又虧損了上百億潘秘書長你認為國發基金這樣投資對嗎\n\n15:40.987 --> 16:02.955\n我認為國發基金是應該站在一些新興產業的投資太陽能這個是新興產業嗎還是夕陽產業過去2016年開始新推的一個產業我相信那是當時的一個執政的一個在未來再開發多元能源他是新興產業還是夕陽產業嗎太陽能電板是新興產業還是夕陽產業這個問題沒這麼困難吧我跟委員報告我是講綠能的發展不是講太陽能面板\n\n16:11.492 --> 16:38.177\n國發聯合再生就是在做太陽能面板的您不知道嗎我不知道他在做太陽能面板你真的不知道啊我不知道他在做太陽能面板奇怪了你跟這個董事長非常熟啊我就知道你會講這個是啊董事長委員我跟我站在屏東地方政府去招商是這一點是公開的紀錄是所以這不用我任何所以2020年3月18號你跟他在喜來登喜請客樓吃飯談什麼事情\n\n16:40.437 --> 16:57.787\n我跟委員報告當初呢屏東縣政府做一個地層下限區四個鄉鎮的綠能專區公開招商那因為他是國家隊所以我繼續拜訪希望他來屏東做綠能開發的國際所以你去喜來登的請客樓拜訪他沒錯\n\n17:00.375 --> 17:21.721\n誰買單的我買單那天是你買單的我請他一次我不知道是哪一次齁那天喜來登請克隆是你買單的我知道是誰提供給你然後在拍照但共同吃飯來來來做招商的並不代表有什麼好沒有關係共同吃飯來做招商並不代表什麼因為啦齁這裡面有非常多的細節\n\n17:23.121 --> 17:42.856\n包括了當初他去屏東的時候當他去屏東的時候做了什麼事情以及你們幾次參與的時候討論了什麼事情所以我今天就公開請教你我們現在立法院成立了國發基金調查委員會如果調查委員會發函邀請您到委員會來說明您願不願意\n\n17:44.457 --> 18:07.069\n我不願意因為這不關我的事啊你不願意喔關我什麼事啊欸依照立法院之前不是立法委員跟大法官的憲法判決您認為調查委員會請你你有沒有來的義務我要評估因為你要評估欸等一下不是你法律上有沒有義務這個是一個法律問題如果是法律義務我當然會參加但國發基金怎麼投資你怎麼會找我來問呢\n\n18:08.149 --> 18:08.369\n我這樣講好了啦\n\n18:24.733 --> 18:31.457\n我這樣講好了啦針對有關於國發基金有關於國發基金不是吧是不是寒血噴人所以我就請教你們國發基金調查委員會如果邀請你來你願不願意來\n\n18:40.623 --> 18:44.904\n你已經講了兩年了你永遠沒有結果但只會含沙含沙射影然後我跟你講啦我從來不含沙射影的啦你說話都是有評有據嘛你有沒有去吃這個飯嘛談了什麼嘛我問了很久啊這個攤在陽光下從來不願意公開回覆今天在這邊就是公開之前呢你是在含沙射影問什麼對號入座我\n\n19:04.628 --> 19:12.070\n沒有任何的我就講今天在立法院講話要負責任的黃委員他們如果涉及不法他們能馬上下台如果沒有涉及不法黃委員請你也有勇氣的辭職下台我之前開的記者會沒有言論免責權我們時間的關係是不是黃委員的質詢我們請尊重後面的委員我之前開記者會沒有言論免責權喔\n\n19:30.854 --> 19:34.997\n我如果有誹謗歡迎你去告我你只是在講事態並沒有去指責怎麼樣那如果有怎麼樣請歡迎接下來我們有請黃委員孟凱智先生\n\n","segments":[{"start":17.338,"end":18.642,"text":"謝謝主席,有請潘秘書長請潘秘書長"},{"start":25.51,"end":53.338,"text":"委員長委員長早喔財政收支劃分法的修正引發了非常多民進黨的立委或者是縣市首長所謂的反彈那我們的中央政府我相信從最高層的總統到行政院院長都有表示過一些看法我們來回顧一下2012年的時候民進黨中央黨部召開了記者會真抱歉我們就是這麼窮"},{"start":55.098,"end":72.51,"text":"訴求中央政府不能再集權又集錢這場記者會你有參與吧?有有嘛當時您的身份是什麼?民進黨黨團的成員2012年當初你是民進黨黨團幹部的時候你們有沒有提出財政收支劃分法的修法?"},{"start":73.527,"end":82.114,"text":"我印象中好像有提但是沒辦法通過因為每一個縣市的故意沒有關係我們一樣一樣來你印象中有提嘛你自己提過的法案你應該記得嘛我來幫你複習一下"},{"start":87.163,"end":104.829,"text":"這是在2012年4月25號立法院的公報民主進步黨立院黨團柯建民潘孟安陳亭飛當初您的職位應該是幹事長嗎沒錯好來我們來看一下當初民進黨在野的時候所提出的財政收支劃分法我們先關注"},{"start":105.709,"end":124.991,"text":"目前引發很多討論的中央跟地方的垂直分配中央跟地方垂直分配我相信秘書長很熟啦您之前也提案要修財政收支劃分法嘛來那個時候民主進步黨黨團的版本中央跟地方的垂直分配要怎麼修還記不記得"},{"start":126.964,"end":141.379,"text":"呃這個要看過去的資料要修一定要修我到目前為止我都幫你整理出來了那個時候民進黨的主張是說所得稅本來是10%拿來做中央統籌分配款主張要到20%"},{"start":142.62,"end":158.473,"text":"而且增加一個直轄市要多10%那個時候只有5都現在有6都了所以按照民進黨那個時候您所提出來的版本中央統籌分配款大概要從10%到30%這是第1%第二個貨物稅的部分沒有動第三個營業稅的部分從40%到100%跟我們這一次國會所通過的法律40%到100%是不是一樣"},{"start":172.421,"end":201.921,"text":"我想委員這個時空背景不一樣我知道時空背景當然不一樣現在目前我們中央政府總預算裡面61%都是用在六都其他非六都的限制才用了24%的分配現在我在跟你講的是垂直分配的問題你只要focus在你那個時候提出來的版本就好了來最後一個那個時候你們是不是還要求燕九歲81%也要列入中央統籌分配款"},{"start":202.721,"end":226.249,"text":"是吧這是你提出來的立法版本嗎?是沒錯所以我們把2024年國會三讀通過的法案跟2012年民主進步黨由您跟柯建民所領銜提案的法案做兩相對比阿藍秘書長你覺得這兩個版本中央統籌分配款要分給地方政府"},{"start":227.423,"end":255.939,"text":"挖得比較多的是哪一個版本?呃我我不這麼認為齁委員我跟你報告齁不好意思喔我的請教是說這兩個版本挖得比較多的是哪一個版本因為經過12年12年前2011年對中央給地方政府不對中央給地方政府才5000億然後2024年2025年未來中央給地方政府是一兆1000多億完全不一樣我要跟秘書長講的事情齁是你的論點"},{"start":257.06,"end":283.587,"text":"我在財政委員會啊直接問過財政部部長啊你們在談數字的時候啊因為我雖然是學法律的但是啊我是用統計的方法在研究法律啊你不要看絕對值啊母數是多少講清楚啊你佔的percentage現在中央政府給地方政府中央統籌分配款過去這8年過去這8年所佔的比例是上升還是下降"},{"start":286.339,"end":304.284,"text":"給中央統統備案給地方的對戰國稅的比例是上升還下降戰國稅這個部分我不大知道下降我直接跟你講下降因為我全部都算完了我現在啦我只是要提醒你的注意啊當初民進黨在野的時候啊很有理想性啊"},{"start":305.917,"end":330.484,"text":"財政收支劃分法一定要修啊要不然地方政府沒有充足的財源發展建設啊所以我把民進黨在野的時候啊由您跟柯建民所領銜的修法版本我就拿出來複習大家的建議複習大家的記憶還比起來跟今年國會修的啊到底哪一個從國稅的部分拿到綜合統籌分配款多啊您作為"},{"start":331.384,"end":342.368,"text":"一、二年提的版本也被否決了一、二年民進黨才40級的委員所以民進黨2016年是多數的時候為什麼不肯堅持自己在野的理想繼續拿出來呢2016年的時候民進黨過半沒有?過半了嘛"},{"start":352.811,"end":367.807,"text":"你如果還堅持2012年的理想2016年你拿你的版本出來表決當初的國會的人數比例以及還會有六都的時候整個包括一種預算的收入過去大概一兆左右"},{"start":374.571,"end":396.482,"text":"現在所有的網友都知道了啦您不用講你的標準答案人家都幫你先預想好了啦來你作為屏東縣的老縣長你知不知道限制屏東縣每一年中央統籌分配款分多少錢目前我所知道好像是數字上我不太精準好像是200多億吧限制是多少錢"},{"start":397.509,"end":419.382,"text":"中央統統分配給屏東的對對對給屏東縣您作為屏東縣的老縣長應該很熟啊我我我應該看一下數字啊好像是123億啊123喔對你知道修法過了以後屏東分多少錢嗎130幾全國分配最少的我就跟你講你要把123億再加上什麼再加上134億這123億是基本支出是增加134億嘛增加是最少的增加134億嘛增加134億你滿不滿意當然不滿意你也不滿意嘛對"},{"start":427.367,"end":454.624,"text":"所以你認為屏東應該分更多嗎那當然好那這樣子就獲制共識了吧就代表的是說從屏東的立場限制如果修法以後屏東還分太少那限制就是分更少啦那個委員屏東比其他的非六都的限制份額還要少這第一個第二個呢我們還是希望均衡台灣不是給獨厚來個限制尤其六都我相信我相信六都占了中央政府總預算的62%的預算"},{"start":456.465,"end":483.454,"text":"所有的鄉親報不平我相信全國的民眾都聽到了非常好作為屏東的老縣長就是要有這種態度就是要有這種氣魄來我們繼續再往下看我們總統府有執政也有國策顧問我們大家不知道我們的執政跟國策顧問到底是拿來做什麼的我們的賴清德總統請他自己的舅舅當執政你覺得這是用人為財還是用人為親"},{"start":485.723,"end":512.454,"text":"呃我想這一點我們尊重總統的用人尊重總統的用人嘛他一定是用人為財那從你自己心裡面這個是用人為財還用人為欽同知政過去你總不能因人廢言因人因黨廢言沒有沒有因為他是在基隆我對於同友基隆市慶安宮的主任委員啊我是很尊敬啊年紀這麼高了還願意當主任委員我非常尊敬啊但是"},{"start":513.887,"end":531.737,"text":"總統府的執政總統府的國策顧問那是國家的名器啊但是這是國家的名器有幾值無幾值是另外一回事啦執政跟國策顧問是國家的名器啦這個是用人為財還是用人為親你說你尊重總統我們大家都尊重總統嘛但問題是什麼"},{"start":533.078,"end":562.02,"text":"台灣是一個民主法治的社會啊台灣不是北京的極權政體啊總統所聘的資政他的標準全國人民有沒有發表意見的權利以公益社會貢獻的導向為主以童勇這樣的一個老先生他過去在基隆在親安宮也好或是在公益的表現上我相信基隆人都心知肚明也是作為基隆相關的代表的一個之一所以聘為資政"},{"start":563.081,"end":580.508,"text":"非常好用這樣的一個態度是是是好你說得非常好那下一位這位國策顧問呢有做假藥製造偽造罪偽藥罪判刑6個月非法賣藥2016喔這是從2011就偽藥罪喔2016非法賣藥結果這樣的人聘做國策顧問來秘書長你覺得這是用人為財嗎"},{"start":589.805,"end":593.089,"text":"這個是社會的表率嗎?這是我們國家國策顧問的標準嗎?"},{"start":594.833,"end":623.883,"text":"我想這個康雲碩先生勒是有他在地方公益的表現但至於他個人的所謂的這種11年16年20年這種相關的這個部分勒基本上勒我不大知道但我們也沒有這就是公開資訊啦奇怪你們在聘國策顧問的時候這個人的背景不用先查核喔如果連這個都不知道就聘他當國策顧問完蛋了我們總統府的幕僚作業也太草率了吧"},{"start":624.926,"end":648.993,"text":"不會啦不會欸你怎麼會說你不知道這公開資訊欸我不知道這個不是我派私家偵探去查出來的欸我怎麼知道這個你只要上判決稍微查一下就知道了欸賣過假藥非法賣藥賣了這麼多年這麼有名的人來你覺得聘這樣的人當國策顧問啊是不是符合總統府用人的標準"},{"start":650.365,"end":661.42,"text":"我 我想總統是有一套啦他個人總統是哪一套現在全國人民很困惑啊你說總統有一套總統是哪一套他已經是用人為財但是這個是用人為財喔這是令全台灣社會大開眼界過去他個人怎麼樣的行為過去不重要嘛"},{"start":668.609,"end":669.289,"text":"這個人因為性騷 辭掉了資政"},{"start":698.706,"end":724.048,"text":"上一屆總統的時候現在又聘他為執政這個是我們總統府要給全臺灣社會的性平觀念嗎說明一下我想這個原執政後來在去年發生這樣的狀況他就辭掉了嘛對然後後來在整個調查裡面已經還了他的公道誰做了調查他們自己內部包括他們自己內部是誰"},{"start":726.424,"end":740.483,"text":"來北市的勞工局也找不到具體的澄清的一個找不到具體澄清的不是啊當初說要去處理的事情是小英基金會啊小英基金會有處理嗎這個委員跟委員報告這個有舉報到台北市勞動局"},{"start":741.124,"end":756.234,"text":"沒有我先問你啦小英基金會自己有沒有處理這個小英基金會內部有沒有處理我不知道奇怪了你們在聘一個人當執政的時候怎麼現在大家聽起來覺得很困惑你聘國策顧問之前發生什麼事不知道聘要當執政的時候"},{"start":760.757,"end":776.15,"text":"然後連小英基金會有沒有處理你也不知道基金會有他基金會運作這個我們不變智慧但公部門臺北市勞動局有去介入調查的部分我們必須尊重臺北市勞動局的介入調查我這樣講好了啦這些相關的爭議喔"},{"start":777.671,"end":801.511,"text":"在媒體上面披露了整個社會大眾在請總統出來做說明啊大家等不到說明嘛大家等不到說明嘛因為要我們總統出來接受媒體訪問是一件超級難度很高的事啦我們立法委員在國會殿堂針對人民關心的事情來對你請教嘛好下一個之前啊您在當立委的時候你也說過嘛"},{"start":802.452,"end":808.164,"text":"國發基金不可以淪為啊!紓困基金應該用法律管理啊!潘秉樹長還記得嗎?當然"},{"start":810.663,"end":834.332,"text":"你的想法有沒有改變還是時空背景又不一樣現在不用用法律管理想法沒有改變所以你還是贊成國發基金不可以作為紓困基金然後要用法律管理是嗎當初的紓困是因為要去做DRAM的一個紓困那完全是一個註冊50萬公司的公司要拿100億所以當初我們在立法院是反對的"},{"start":836.332,"end":861.343,"text":"國發基金不是不能作為這個紓困是不能用這樣的使用要去做規範你剛說國發基金是不能用作紓困所以你是贊成國發基金可以拿來紓困嗎?要用投資啊對嘛所以不能拿來紓困這個是第一個人說嘛然後第二個要用法律管理你的立場沒改變嘛當然是吧現在國發基金不是用法律管理喔"},{"start":862.83,"end":889.411,"text":"他應該有監管單位啊是啊但是是授權下面的就給國發基金管理委員會當初你是要提國發基金管理條例捏但是問題是那時候大家討論沒有辦法啊那是一種難易啊那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那是一種難易啊 那"},{"start":896.099,"end":905.123,"text":"對啊,他自己超過10分鐘啊對啊,那你要去跟他抗議嘛好,來,再來我先處理一下12點先處理會議時間依前的宣告上午時間繼續進行至尋答結束及報告事項預算解凍案之處理好"},{"start":915.101,"end":937.947,"text":"我們繼續再往下看國發基金不可以淪為紓困基金但我們政府投資了30億號稱綠能國家隊的聯合債生這家公司我相信秘書長你非常的熟我為什麼說淪為紓困基金投資以前就已經虧損了多少上百億投資以後又虧損了上百億潘秘書長你認為國發基金這樣投資對嗎"},{"start":940.987,"end":962.955,"text":"我認為國發基金是應該站在一些新興產業的投資太陽能這個是新興產業嗎還是夕陽產業過去2016年開始新推的一個產業我相信那是當時的一個執政的一個在未來再開發多元能源他是新興產業還是夕陽產業嗎太陽能電板是新興產業還是夕陽產業這個問題沒這麼困難吧我跟委員報告我是講綠能的發展不是講太陽能面板"},{"start":971.492,"end":998.177,"text":"國發聯合再生就是在做太陽能面板的您不知道嗎我不知道他在做太陽能面板你真的不知道啊我不知道他在做太陽能面板奇怪了你跟這個董事長非常熟啊我就知道你會講這個是啊董事長委員我跟我站在屏東地方政府去招商是這一點是公開的紀錄是所以這不用我任何所以2020年3月18號你跟他在喜來登喜請客樓吃飯談什麼事情"},{"start":1000.437,"end":1017.787,"text":"我跟委員報告當初呢屏東縣政府做一個地層下限區四個鄉鎮的綠能專區公開招商那因為他是國家隊所以我繼續拜訪希望他來屏東做綠能開發的國際所以你去喜來登的請客樓拜訪他沒錯"},{"start":1020.375,"end":1041.721,"text":"誰買單的我買單那天是你買單的我請他一次我不知道是哪一次齁那天喜來登請克隆是你買單的我知道是誰提供給你然後在拍照但共同吃飯來來來做招商的並不代表有什麼好沒有關係共同吃飯來做招商並不代表什麼因為啦齁這裡面有非常多的細節"},{"start":1043.121,"end":1062.856,"text":"包括了當初他去屏東的時候當他去屏東的時候做了什麼事情以及你們幾次參與的時候討論了什麼事情所以我今天就公開請教你我們現在立法院成立了國發基金調查委員會如果調查委員會發函邀請您到委員會來說明您願不願意"},{"start":1064.457,"end":1087.069,"text":"我不願意因為這不關我的事啊你不願意喔關我什麼事啊欸依照立法院之前不是立法委員跟大法官的憲法判決您認為調查委員會請你你有沒有來的義務我要評估因為你要評估欸等一下不是你法律上有沒有義務這個是一個法律問題如果是法律義務我當然會參加但國發基金怎麼投資你怎麼會找我來問呢"},{"start":1088.149,"end":1088.369,"text":"我這樣講好了啦"},{"start":1104.733,"end":1111.457,"text":"我這樣講好了啦針對有關於國發基金有關於國發基金不是吧是不是寒血噴人所以我就請教你們國發基金調查委員會如果邀請你來你願不願意來"},{"start":1120.623,"end":1124.904,"text":"你已經講了兩年了你永遠沒有結果但只會含沙含沙射影然後我跟你講啦我從來不含沙射影的啦你說話都是有評有據嘛你有沒有去吃這個飯嘛談了什麼嘛我問了很久啊這個攤在陽光下從來不願意公開回覆今天在這邊就是公開之前呢你是在含沙射影問什麼對號入座我"},{"start":1144.628,"end":1152.07,"text":"沒有任何的我就講今天在立法院講話要負責任的黃委員他們如果涉及不法他們能馬上下台如果沒有涉及不法黃委員請你也有勇氣的辭職下台我之前開的記者會沒有言論免責權我們時間的關係是不是黃委員的質詢我們請尊重後面的委員我之前開記者會沒有言論免責權喔"},{"start":1170.854,"end":1174.997,"text":"我如果有誹謗歡迎你去告我你只是在講事態並沒有去指責怎麼樣那如果有怎麼樣請歡迎接下來我們有請黃委員孟凱智先生"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1298,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時46分）謝謝主席，有請潘秘書長。"],["主席：請潘秘書長。"],["潘秘書長孟安：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：秘書長早。財政收支劃分法的修正，引發了非常多民進黨立委或縣市首長所謂的反彈。我們的中央政府，我相信從最高層的總統到行政院院長，都有表示過一些看法。我們來回顧一下，2012年的時候民進黨中央黨部召開的記者會，真抱歉我們就是這麼窮，訴求中央政府不能再集權又集錢，這場記者會你有參與吧？"],["潘秘書長孟安：有。"],["黃委員國昌：當時您的身分是什麼？"],["潘秘書長孟安：民進黨黨團的成員。"],["黃委員國昌：2012年你是民進黨黨團幹部的時候，你們有沒有提出財政收支劃分法的修法？"],["潘秘書長孟安：我印象中好像有提，但是沒辦法通過，因為每一個縣市的……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，我們一樣一樣來。你印象中有提，你自己提過的法案你應該記得，我來幫你複習一下。"],["潘秘書長孟安：我要查一下。"],["黃委員國昌：這個是在2012年4月25號立法院的公報，民主進步黨立院黨團柯建銘、潘孟安、陳亭妃，當初您的職位應該是幹事長。"],["潘秘書長孟安：沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們來看一下，當初民進黨在野的時候所提出的財政收支劃分法，我們先關注目前引發很多討論的中央跟地方的垂直分配。中央跟地方的垂直分配，我相信秘書長很熟。"],["潘秘書長孟安：是。"],["黃委員國昌：您之前也提案要修財政收支劃分法，那個時候民主進步黨黨團的版本，中央跟地方的垂直分配要怎麼修還記不記得？"],["潘秘書長孟安：這個要看過去的資料，要修一定要修，我到目前為止保持這樣的態度。"],["黃委員國昌：我都幫你整理出來了，那個時候民進黨的主張是所得稅本來是10%，拿來做中央統籌分配款，主張要到20%，而且增加一個直轄市要多10%。那個時候只有五都，現在有六都了，所以按照民進黨那個時候您所提出來的版本，中央統籌分配款大概要從10%到30%，這是第一個部分。第二個貨物稅的部分沒有動，第三個營業稅的部分從40%到100%，跟我們這次國會通過的法律，40%到100%是不是一樣？"],["潘秘書長孟安：我想委員這個時空背景不一樣，第二個……"],["黃委員國昌：我知道時空背景當然不一樣。"],["潘秘書長孟安：目前我們中央政府總預算裡面，61%都是用在六都，其他非六都的縣市才用了24%左右。"],["黃委員國昌：對不起喔，秘書長，現在我在跟你講的是垂直分配的問題，你只要focus在你那個時候提出來的版本就好了。"],["潘秘書長孟安：OK，也要橫向分配。"],["黃委員國昌：最後一個，那個時候你們是不是還要求菸酒稅81%也要列入中央統籌分配款？是吧，這是你提出來的立法版本嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：對，當初的版本是這樣。"],["黃委員國昌：是，沒錯。所以我們把2024年國會三讀通過的法案，跟2012年民主進步黨，由您跟柯建銘所領銜提案的法案兩相對比。秘書長，你覺得這兩個版本中央統籌分配款要分給地方政府，挖得比較多的是哪一個版本？"],["潘秘書長孟安：我不這麼認為，委員，我跟你報告……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，我的請教是說這兩個版本挖得比較多的是哪一個版本？"],["潘秘書長孟安：因為經過12年，12年前……"],["黃委員國昌：時空背景不太一樣了。"],["潘秘書長孟安：對，2011年中央給地方政府才5,000億，然後2024年、2025年，未來中央給地方政府是一兆一千多億，完全不一樣，基準不一樣。"],["黃委員國昌：我要跟秘書長講的事情，你的論點，我在財政委員會直接問過財政部部長，你們在談數字的時候，因為我雖然是學法律的，但我是用統計的方法在研究法律，你不要看絕對值啊！母數是多少？講清楚啊！你占的percentage，現在中央政府給地方政府中央統籌分配款，過去這八年所占的比例是上升還是下降，你知道嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：中央統籌分配款給地方的？"],["黃委員國昌：對，占國稅的比例是上升還是下降？"],["潘秘書長孟安：占國稅這個部分，我不大知道，我要精算。"],["黃委員國昌：下降，我直接跟你講下降，因為我全部都算完了。我現在只是要提醒你注意，當初民進黨在野的時候很有理想性，說財政收支劃分法一定要修，要不然地方政府沒有充足的財源發展建設！所以我把民進黨在野的時候由您跟柯建銘所領銜的修法版本拿出來，複習大家的記憶，還要跟今年國會修的比起來，到底哪一個從國稅的部分拿到中央統籌分配款多。"],["潘秘書長孟安：委員，2012年提的版本也被否決了。"],["黃委員國昌：是啊……"],["潘秘書長孟安：2012年時，民進黨才40席的委員，所以被國民黨否決了。"],["黃委員國昌：所以民進黨2016年是多數的時候為什麼不肯堅持自己在野的理想、繼續提出來呢？"],["潘秘書長孟安：現在民眾黨所提的跟國民黨提的，我們也否決，只是我們人數比較少，沒辦法否決。"],["黃委員國昌：2016年的時候民進黨過半沒有？過半了嘛，你如果還堅持2012年的理想，2016年你拿你的版本出來表決，一定過的嘛！"],["潘秘書長孟安：當初國會的人數比例以及還未有六都的時候，整個包括總預算的收入，過去大概一兆左右，目前有將近三兆。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦，秘書長，我跟你講，民進黨所使用的時空環境背景不同之術，現在所有的網友都知道了，你不用講你的標準答案，人家都幫你先預想好了。來，你作為屏東縣的老縣長，你知不知道現制屏東縣每一年中央統籌分配款分多少錢？"],["潘秘書長孟安：目前我所知道好像是……數字上我不大精準，好像是兩百多億吧。"],["黃委員國昌：現制是多少錢？"],["潘秘書長孟安：中央統籌分配給屏東縣……"],["黃委員國昌：您作為屏東縣的老縣長，應該很熟啊！"],["潘秘書長孟安：我應該看一下數字，好像是……"],["黃委員國昌：123億。"],["潘秘書長孟安：對。"],["黃委員國昌：你知道修法過了以後，屏東分多少錢嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：一百三十幾，全國分配最少的。"],["黃委員國昌：我就跟你講，你要把123億再加上134億。"],["潘秘書長孟安：123億是基本支出。"],["黃委員國昌：是增加134億嘛？"],["潘秘書長孟安：增加是最少的。"],["黃委員國昌：增加134億嘛！"],["潘秘書長孟安：對。"],["黃委員國昌：增加134億，你滿不滿意？"],["潘秘書長孟安：當然不滿意。"],["黃委員國昌：你也不滿意，所以你認為屏東應該分更多？"],["潘秘書長孟安：那當然。"],["黃委員國昌：那這樣子就獲致共識了，就代表了是說從屏東的立場，現制如果修法以後，屏東還分太少，那現制就是分更少啦！"],["潘秘書長孟安：委員，屏東比其他非六都的縣市分的還要少，這是第一個。第二個，我們還是希望均衡臺灣，不是獨厚哪一個縣市。"],["黃委員國昌：我相信。"],["潘秘書長孟安：尤其六都占了中央政府總預算62%的預算。"],["黃委員國昌：您今天幫屏東所有的鄉親抱不平，我相信全國的民眾都聽到了，非常好，作為屏東的老縣長就是要有這種態度、就是要有這種氣魄嘛！","來，我們繼續往下看，我們總統府有資政，也有國策顧問，大家不知道我們的資政跟國策顧問到底是拿來做什麼的，我們的賴清德總統請他自己的舅舅當資政，你覺得這是用人唯才還是用人唯親？"],["潘秘書長孟安：我想這一點我們尊重總統的用人。"],["黃委員國昌：尊重總統的用人嘛！"],["潘秘書長孟安：但他一定是用人唯才。"],["黃委員國昌：那從你自己心裡面，這個是用人唯才還是用人唯親？"],["潘秘書長孟安：童資政過去……你總不能因人廢言、因黨廢言。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有、沒有。我們先釐清……"],["潘秘書長孟安：因為他是在基隆長期的公益……"],["黃委員國昌：我對於基隆市慶安宮的主任委員──童永是很尊敬，年紀這麼高了還願意當主任委員，我非常尊敬。但是，總統府的資政、總統府的國策顧問，那是國家的名器，這是國家的名器啊！"],["潘秘書長孟安：但它是無給職。"],["黃委員國昌：有給職、無給職是另外一回事，資政跟國策顧問是國家的名器，這個是用人唯才還是用人唯親？你說你尊重總統，我們大家都尊重總統嘛，但問題是什麼？臺灣是一個民主法治的社會啊！"],["潘秘書長孟安：當然。"],["黃委員國昌：臺灣不是北京的極權政體啊！對於總統所聘的資政的標準，全國人民有沒有發表意見的權利？"],["潘秘書長孟安：以公益社會貢獻的導向為主，以童永這樣的一個老先生，他過去在基隆，在慶安宮也好或者在公益的表現上，我相信基隆人都心知肚明，也是作為基隆相關的代表之一，所以聘為資政……"],["黃委員國昌：好、非常好、非常好！"],["潘秘書長孟安：用這樣的一個態度跟方式。"],["黃委員國昌：是、是、是，您說得非常好。那下一位這位國策顧問呢？有做假藥、製造偽藥罪判刑六個月，非法賣藥，2016喔，是從2011就偽藥罪喔！2016非法賣藥，結果這樣的人被聘為國策顧問！來，秘書長，你覺得這是用人唯才嗎？這個是社會的表率嗎？這是我們國家國策顧問的標準嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：我想這個康銀壽先生是有他在地方公益的表現，但至於他個人所謂2011年、2016年、2020年這種相關的部分，基本上我不大知道，但我們也沒有……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，這都是公開資訊啦！奇怪，你們在聘國策顧問的時候，不用先查核這個人的背景喔？如果連這個都不知道就聘他當國策顧問，完蛋了，我們總統府的幕僚作業也太草率了吧？"],["潘秘書長孟安：不會啦！"],["黃委員國昌：不會？你怎麼會說你不知道？這是公開資訊耶！"],["潘秘書長孟安：我不知道……"],["黃委員國昌：這個不是我派私家偵探去查出來的。"],["潘秘書長孟安：我怎麼知道2011……"],["黃委員國昌：這個只要上判決，你稍微查一下就知道了耶！賣過假藥、非法賣藥，賣了這麼多年，這麼有名的人，你覺得聘這樣的人當國策顧問是不是符合總統府用人的標準？"],["潘秘書長孟安：我想總統自有一套……"],["黃委員國昌：總統是哪一套？現在全國人民很困惑啊！"],["潘秘書長孟安：我剛剛已經講……"],["黃委員國昌：你說總統有一套，總統是哪一套？"],["潘秘書長孟安：他已經是用人唯才，但是……"],["黃委員國昌：這個是用人唯才喔？這是令全臺灣社會大開眼界喔！"],["潘秘書長孟安：過去他個人怎麼樣的行為，那我相信……"],["黃委員國昌：過去不重要？"],["潘秘書長孟安：過去當然重要，但是過去的行為……他未來怎麼樣，這個我不知道，但過去行為的這個部分，我就不知道，但未來我們希望善用他在地方的影響。"],["黃委員國昌：秘書長，你冷靜一點啦！過去很重要，但是過去怎麼樣，你又不知道，大家就會很困惑。過去你說很重要，你又說你不知道，那我們到底是怎麼在聘國策顧問的？","再下一個，這個人因為性騷辭掉了資政，這是上一屆總統的時候，現在又聘他為資政，這個是我們總統府要給全臺灣社會的性平觀念嗎？說明一下。"],["潘秘書長孟安：我想顏資政在去年發生這樣的狀況……"],["黃委員國昌：他後來就辭掉了嘛！"],["潘秘書長孟安：對，後來在整個調查裡面已經還了他公道。"],["黃委員國昌：誰做了調查？"],["潘秘書長孟安：他們自己內部。"],["黃委員國昌：他們自己內部是誰？"],["潘秘書長孟安：臺北市的勞工局也找不到具體的陳情人……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啊！當初說要去處理事情的是小英基金會啊！小英基金會有處理嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：跟委員報告，這個有舉發到臺北市勞動局……"],["黃委員國昌：我先問你啦……"],["潘秘書長孟安：臺北市勞動局已經做過……"],["黃委員國昌：小英基金會自己有沒有處理？"],["潘秘書長孟安：小英基金會內部有沒有處理這個，我不知道。"],["黃委員國昌：奇怪了！你們在聘一個人當資政的時候，怎麼現在大家聽起來覺得很困惑？"],["潘秘書長孟安：沒有、沒有，委員……"],["黃委員國昌：你聘的國策顧問之前發生什麼事，你不知道；聘這個人當資政的時候，然後連小英基金會有沒有處理，你也不知道，通通都不知道？"],["潘秘書長孟安：基金會有基金會的運作，這個我們不便置喙，但公部門臺北市勞動局有去介入調查的部分，我們必須尊重臺北市勞動局的介入。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了啦，這些相關的爭議在媒體上面披露了，整個社會大眾在請總統出來做說明，大家等不到說明、大家等不到說明嘛！因為要我們總統出來接受媒體訪問是一件難度超級高的事，我們立法委員在國會殿堂針對人民關心的事情來對你請教嘛！","好，下一個，之前您在當立委的時候也說過：國發基金不可以淪為紓困基金，應該用法律管理。潘秘書長還記得嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：當然。"],["黃委員國昌：你的想法有沒有改變？還是時空背景又不一樣，現在不用用法律管理？"],["潘秘書長孟安：想法沒有改變。"],["黃委員國昌：想法沒改變？所以你還是贊成國發基金不可以作為紓困基金，然後要用法律管理嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：不、不，當初的紓困是因為要去做DRAM的紓困，那完全是一個註冊50萬的公司要拿100億，所以當初我們在立法院是反對的。那國發基金不是不能作為紓困，而是不能做這樣的使用，要去做規範。"],["黃委員國昌：等一下、等一下，你剛剛說國發基金不是不能用作紓困，所以你是贊成國發基金可以拿來紓困？"],["潘秘書長孟安：不是、不是，是口誤，要用投資。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，所以不能拿來紓困，這是第一個原則嘛？"],["潘秘書長孟安：是投資新創或是做什麼樣的……"],["黃委員國昌：然後第二個，要用法律管理，你的立場沒改變，是吧？"],["潘秘書長孟安：當然。"],["黃委員國昌：是吧？現在國發基金不是用法律管理哦！"],["潘秘書長孟安：它應該有監管單位啊！"],["黃委員國昌：是啊，但是是授權下面的，就給國發基金管理委員會，當初你是要提國發基金管理條例！"],["潘秘書長孟安：但是問題是那時候大家討論，沒有辦法，那是一種……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係嘛，你的立場只要沒有改變，可以不可以，這個……"],["潘秘書長孟安：國發會當時的解釋……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，主席已經站起來了，但是我剛剛有計時，主席質詢的時候超時10分鐘，我比照同一個規格就好了。","好，再下一個……"],["賴委員瑞隆：後面發言的人有意見啊！抗議啊！"],["黃委員國昌：對啊，他自己超過10分鐘啊！"],["賴委員瑞隆：抗議……"],["黃委員國昌：對啊，那你要去跟他抗議啊！","好，再來……"],["主席：黃委員，我先處理一下會議時間，作以下宣告：上午時間繼續進行至詢答結束及報告事項預算解凍案之處理。"],["黃委員國昌：我們繼續再往下看，國發基金不可以淪為紓困基金，但我們政府投資了30億號稱綠能國家隊的聯合再生，這家公司我相信秘書長你非常的熟，我為什麼說淪為紓困基金？政府投資以前，它就已經虧損了上百億；投資以後，又虧損了上百億。潘秘書長，你認為國發基金這樣投資對嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：我認為國發基金是應該站在一些新興產業的投資……"],["黃委員國昌：太陽能這個是新興產業嗎？還是夕陽產業？"],["潘秘書長孟安：過去2016年開始新推的一個產業，我相信那是當初執政的一個……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我問你，它是新興產業還是夕陽產業？太陽能電板是新興產業還是夕陽產業？這個問題沒這麼困難吧？"],["潘秘書長孟安：跟委員報告，我是講綠能的發展，不是講太陽能面板。"],["黃委員國昌：聯合再生就是在做太陽能電板的，您不知道嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：我不知道它在做太陽能面板。"],["黃委員國昌：你真的不知道？"],["潘秘書長孟安：我不知道它做太陽能面板。"],["黃委員國昌：奇怪了，你跟這個董事長非常熟啊！"],["潘秘書長孟安：我就知道你會講這個。"],["黃委員國昌：是啊！"],["潘秘書長孟安：委員，我站在屏東地方政府去招商，這一點是公開的紀錄。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["潘秘書長孟安：所以這不用有任何的影射……"],["黃委員國昌：所以2020年3月18號，你跟他在喜來登請客樓吃飯談什麼事情？"],["潘秘書長孟安：我跟委員報告，當初屏東縣政府做一個地層下陷區四個鄉鎮的綠能專區……"],["黃委員國昌：是，我瞭解，然後招商嘛？"],["潘秘書長孟安：公開招商，那因為它是國家隊，所以我去拜訪，希望他來屏東做綠能開發的投資。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你去喜來登的請客樓拜訪他？"],["潘秘書長孟安：沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：誰買單的？"],["潘秘書長孟安：我買單。"],["黃委員國昌：那天是你買單的？"],["潘秘書長孟安：我請他一次，我不知道是哪一次。"],["黃委員國昌：那天喜來登請客樓是你買單的？"],["潘秘書長孟安：我知道是誰提供給你，然後再拍照。但共同吃飯來做招商並不代表有什麼……"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係。"],["潘秘書長孟安：我相信委員也很清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：共同吃飯來做招商並不代表什麼。因為這裡面有非常多的細節，包括了當初他去屏東的時候做了什麼事情以及你們幾次參敘的時候討論了什麼事情。所以我今天就公開請教你，我們立法院現在成立了國發基金調查委員會，如果調查委員會發函邀請您到委員會來說明，你願不願意？"],["潘秘書長孟安：我不願意，因為這不關我的事。"],["黃委員國昌：你不願意喔？"],["潘秘書長孟安：關我什麼事？"],["黃委員國昌：依照立法院職權行使法……"],["潘秘書長孟安：我不是立法委員……"],["黃委員國昌：跟大法官的憲法判決，若調查委員會請你來，你有沒有來的義務？"],["潘秘書長孟安：我要評估，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：你要評估？等一下，你法律上有沒有義務，這個是一個法律問題，怎麼會跟你個人評估有關係？"],["潘秘書長孟安：如果是法律義務，我當然會參加。但國發基金怎麼投資，你怎麼會找我來問呢？"],["黃委員國昌：國發基金……"],["潘秘書長孟安：委員，我乾脆這樣講啦，如果認為聯合再生跟潘孟安有任何關係，請你移送法辦。"],["黃委員國昌：對、對、對、對，我馬上就預測到你要說的就是這個……"],["潘秘書長孟安：如果我有，我馬上辭職；如果沒有，你含血噴人，你也辭職。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了、我這樣講好了啦，針對……"],["潘秘書長孟安：沒有，你辭職；有，我辭職。"],["黃委員國昌：有關於國發基金……"],["潘秘書長孟安：你不能這樣含血噴人嘛！看圖說故事嘛！你根本是在影射。"],["黃委員國昌：是不是含血噴人，所以我就請教你，國發基金調查委員會如果邀請你來……"],["潘秘書長孟安：你已經講了2年了！"],["黃委員國昌：你願不願意來？"],["潘秘書長孟安：你已經講了2年了，你永遠沒有結果，但只會含沙射影，然後……"],["黃委員國昌：我跟你講啦，我從來不含沙射影，我說話都是有憑有據，你有沒有去吃這個飯嘛？談了什麼嘛？我問了很久。"],["潘秘書長孟安：這個攤在陽光下。"],["黃委員國昌：從來不願意公開回復嘛！"],["潘秘書長孟安：今天在這邊就是公開，之前你是在含沙射影，我為什麼要對號入座？我沒有任何的……"],["主席：黃委員，超過10分鐘了。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係……"],["潘秘書長孟安：我就講，今天在立法院講話要負責任的，黃委員，潘孟安如果涉及不法……"],["黃委員國昌：我講話都有負責任的，你如果覺得我之前公開記者會……"],["潘秘書長孟安：潘孟安馬上下臺；如果沒有涉及不法，黃委員，也請你有勇氣地辭職下臺！"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了，我之前開的記者會都沒有言論免責權……"],["主席：我們時間的關係，是不是黃委員的質詢……"],["黃委員國昌：你認為有誹謗，歡迎你去法院告我。"],["主席：我們請尊重後面的委員。"],["黃委員國昌：我之前開記者會沒有言論免責權哦，我如果有誹謗，歡迎你去告我。"],["潘秘書長孟安：你只是在講……"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。"],["潘秘書長孟安：並沒有去指責怎麼樣，如果有怎麼樣，歡迎……"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，也謝謝潘秘書長。謝謝。","接下來有請洪委員孟楷質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":228,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-22","speakers":["鍾佳濱","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","黃國昌","洪孟楷","賴瑞隆","徐富癸"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-25"],"gazette_id":"1141303","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1141303_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於總統府主管（不含中央研究院）收支部分；二、處理113\n年度中央政府總預算關於總統府預算凍結項目1案","agenda_id":"1141303_00001"}}}