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\"start\": 433.318, \"end\": 433.778, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 433.778, \"end\": 433.978, \"score\": 0.763}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 433.978, \"end\": 434.098, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 434.098, \"end\": 434.118, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"臺\"}, {\"word\": \"北\", \"start\": 435.56, \"end\": 436.002, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"園\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"潘\", \"start\": 436.002, \"end\": 436.163, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"秘\", \"start\": 436.163, \"end\": 436.304, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 436.304, \"end\": 436.384, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 436.384, \"end\": 436.404, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,786 --> 00:00:03,048\n好,謝主席,請潘秘書長好,請潘秘書長\n\n2\n00:00:07,932 --> 00:00:31,618\n委員長辛苦了我首先還是關心這個彩化法啦齁我看這個彩化法其實首先我要講程序上就有很重大的問題啦其實剛剛黃國昌委員講了那麼多齁這個2014年跟現在他大概是完全不一樣的彩化法裡面在委員會3分鐘出去朝野沒有協商然後在這個院會的時候一個小時內提出8個版本\n\n3\n00:00:32,595 --> 00:01:00,376\n幾乎是然後這個重大影響3000多月預算完全無法去計算很多立委連表決都不知道自己在表決出哪一種版本甚至於表決出多少預算作為曾經擔任過立法委員的幹事長的排名上這樣的程序沒有問題嗎第一個謝謝委員的推詢第一個程序上有很大的瑕疵第二個立法的背景修法我還是一柄初衷過去在當國會議員也好當縣長也好都是希望主張來修但\n\n4\n00:01:00,896 --> 00:01:20,179\n不是在這種情境之下來修沒有充分討論只有垂直的憑空挖走3000億那沒有任何的細項科目甚至也沒有去跟各縣市討論他整個福地比如以屏東縣而言他有33個鄉鎮市的自治機關也要去分配\n\n5\n00:01:20,780 --> 00:01:36,596\n所以基本上它跟直轄市不一樣而直轄市六都佔了61%左右的中央政府總預算24%才用在非六都的縣市本來就極其不公平但不是這樣的修法方式\n\n6\n00:01:59,696 --> 00:02:12,513\n整個程序完全是沒有討論而且無法連行政部門都不知道版本會搞出什麼版本然後無法去計算這當然是重大的瑕疵我認為才化法出了很大的一個問題包括這個才化法我們談到實質內容來看好了\n\n7\n00:02:14,936 --> 00:02:30,873\n過去秘書長也擔任過屏東縣長這對南台灣公平嗎?相當不公平比如說他用營業稅所有的國營事業的公司總公司都登記在台北污染卻是在高雄跟屏東台南那整個比如說以中鋼中油總公司登記在台北\n\n8\n00:02:31,594 --> 00:02:48,464\n結果營業稅稅是繳在台北市結果污染的生產機率是在平台這就是一個很典型我有提了一個版本我提的版本就是要依照污染的貢獻度來分配合理分配像我的選區裡面的像剛剛你提到光台電就好了高雄台電有三個大電廠興達南部跟這個這個大林電廠\n\n9\n00:02:52,426 --> 00:03:17,664\n公務有時候都還漂到屏東去但是總公司在臺北他的營業稅額放在臺北就照這樣分配所以我們看到臺北拿到了多少?拿到了最多416億新北因為人口拿到了374億而高雄只拿到了245億包括屏東也是全部縣市裡面拿最少高雄是6個慈祥市拿最比例拿最增加最少而屏東是所有的縣市比例拿最少的\n\n10\n00:03:18,304 --> 00:03:33,264\n這對南我們以前常講不應該重北輕南這只讓南北的差距更加擴大作為南台灣出任你能接受這樣的法案嗎修正這個動議版捏更是在懲罰南部啦對於這些過去在城鄉落差比較大的反而懲罰的更嚴重\n\n11\n00:03:34,345 --> 00:03:47,829\n這是極其不公平那尤其他們只是講在過去整個國家重大公共建設或是交通建設都在北部那北部反而的享有更多的資源又分配最多那這一點極其不公平律師長你看這個營業稅就已經凸顯出來了\n\n12\n00:03:51,690 --> 00:04:19,304\n全部的工廠都在中南部多數都在臺北市臺北市佔盡了優勢所以分配到最多啊他已經牆上加牆了然後南北差距很好包括人口啦欸多少中南部的人只好這個到臺北來找尋更好的機會臺北擠了更多的人口結果你用人口去強行分配難怪臺北拿最多新北拿最多這只會讓南北的差距更好對中南部嚴重極其不公平所以我認為這樣的修法其實是在對中南部\n\n13\n00:04:19,864 --> 00:04:44,780\n真的是很不公平而且甚至於是在強化了縱北青南好不容易這幾年的執政努力的讓南北區域均衡發展縣市區域均衡我認為這個是在嚴重的包括甚至於我看到很多200增加2倍增加3倍全部都要攬贏的縣市這不會充滿了政治性的一個修法嗎先決定要給然後再決定來修法內容這對整個縣市的發展是公平的嗎而且試算修過之後比他原來的總預算還要多\n\n14\n00:04:46,687 --> 00:05:02,086\n多很多!多很多!多兩倍!多三倍!有的多到三倍!而且那三倍的錢還不知道做什麼使用?所以剛剛有很多人在講說這修法這是最大問題全國的國家的餅就這麼大你瞬間拿走了3000多億3753億\n\n15\n00:05:05,710 --> 00:05:29,182\n錢就這麼多嘛你拿走了中央當然就沒錢了嘛中央沒錢所以各部會現在開始在講會盤點會影響到很多的重大的建設包括軌道運輸會影響到包括這個這個所有的一些治水也會影響到包括這個福利也會影響到因為很多是跨縣事件的問題嘛中央本來可以做的現在完全沒有所以很多人老是在講說啊你高雄增加了245億啊你屏東增加了134億你還不滿足問題是\n\n16\n00:05:33,744 --> 00:05:46,534\n就高雄來看增加了245億但是明年的700億的本來可以分配到的因為你中央被拿走了3000多億後可能恐怕只剩下300億也就是說實質上會減少了將近300億到400億實質上光高雄跟屏東未來明年絕對是負成長\n\n17\n00:05:53,759 --> 00:06:17,070\n總統府長是副城長。對屏東公平嗎?對屏東不公平。對屏東更不公平。如果看到這樣的精算數字,包括未來總統準備退稅款之後,變成了屏東款額減少了96億。是啊。所以更不公平。就整個總的來看,國家財政這麼多嘛,你現在不要講的一副好像你挖那麼多錢來給的你這些錢。你在國家錢挖出來之後,變成國家未來補助的會更少。所以\n\n18\n00:06:17,910 --> 00:06:43,078\n高雄、屏東、台南我可以預計明年度全部都是負成長全部都減少不要再講什麼245億不要再什麼130億難道你不要嗎都是在騙屏東人騙高雄人騙台南人對他們都極其不公平所以我認為其實這件事情是嚴重的違憲同時是違反相關的紀律的財政紀律的我們認為政府機關應該要有所作為所以包括復議包括釋憲我們認為都應該進行你也想同意這樣的做法嗎是我們會窮極一切的憲政的說法\n\n19\n00:06:47,779 --> 00:07:14,118\n這是為了台灣的長遠發展如果可以這樣子惡搞的話那財政絕對是崩壞了啦更何況這個過程完全沒有經過討論行政部門的意見也沒有進來然後各縣市政府意見沒有進來完全照那個分配比例然後只有三個人知道最終機密版本連現場在座的立委連我們都不知道這算什麼樣的立法這立法絕對是有問題的一個立法所以我們強烈反對我們要求這件事情應該要退回委員會重新討論重新審查\n\n20\n00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:16,404\n臺北園謝謝潘秘書長接下來請\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1786\t3048\t好,謝主席,請潘秘書長好,請潘秘書長\n7932\t31618\t委員長辛苦了我首先還是關心這個彩化法啦齁我看這個彩化法其實首先我要講程序上就有很重大的問題啦其實剛剛黃國昌委員講了那麼多齁這個2014年跟現在他大概是完全不一樣的彩化法裡面在委員會3分鐘出去朝野沒有協商然後在這個院會的時候一個小時內提出8個版本\n32595\t60376\t幾乎是然後這個重大影響3000多月預算完全無法去計算很多立委連表決都不知道自己在表決出哪一種版本甚至於表決出多少預算作為曾經擔任過立法委員的幹事長的排名上這樣的程序沒有問題嗎第一個謝謝委員的推詢第一個程序上有很大的瑕疵第二個立法的背景修法我還是一柄初衷過去在當國會議員也好當縣長也好都是希望主張來修但\n60896\t80179\t不是在這種情境之下來修沒有充分討論只有垂直的憑空挖走3000億那沒有任何的細項科目甚至也沒有去跟各縣市討論他整個福地比如以屏東縣而言他有33個鄉鎮市的自治機關也要去分配\n80780\t96596\t所以基本上它跟直轄市不一樣而直轄市六都佔了61%左右的中央政府總預算24%才用在非六都的縣市本來就極其不公平但不是這樣的修法方式\n99019\t119616\t議員會議員會議員會議員會\n119696\t132513\t整個程序完全是沒有討論而且無法連行政部門都不知道版本會搞出什麼版本然後無法去計算這當然是重大的瑕疵我認為才化法出了很大的一個問題包括這個才化法我們談到實質內容來看好了\n134936\t150873\t過去秘書長也擔任過屏東縣長這對南台灣公平嗎?相當不公平比如說他用營業稅所有的國營事業的公司總公司都登記在台北污染卻是在高雄跟屏東台南那整個比如說以中鋼中油總公司登記在台北\n151594\t168464\t結果營業稅稅是繳在台北市結果污染的生產機率是在平台這就是一個很典型我有提了一個版本我提的版本就是要依照污染的貢獻度來分配合理分配像我的選區裡面的像剛剛你提到光台電就好了高雄台電有三個大電廠興達南部跟這個這個大林電廠\n172426\t197664\t公務有時候都還漂到屏東去但是總公司在臺北他的營業稅額放在臺北就照這樣分配所以我們看到臺北拿到了多少?拿到了最多416億新北因為人口拿到了374億而高雄只拿到了245億包括屏東也是全部縣市裡面拿最少高雄是6個慈祥市拿最 比例拿最 增加最少而屏東是所有的縣市比例拿最少的\n198304\t213264\t這對南我們以前常講不應該重北輕南這只讓南北的差距更加擴大作為南台灣出任你能接受這樣的法案嗎修正這個動議版捏更是在懲罰南部啦對於這些過去在城鄉落差比較大的反而懲罰的更嚴重\n214345\t227829\t這是極其不公平那尤其他們只是講在過去整個國家重大公共建設或是交通建設都在北部那北部反而的享有更多的資源又分配最多那這一點極其不公平律師長你看這個營業稅就已經凸顯出來了\n231690\t259304\t全部的工廠都在中南部多數都在臺北市臺北市佔盡了優勢所以分配到最多啊他已經牆上加牆了然後南北差距很好包括人口啦欸多少中南部的人只好這個到臺北來找尋更好的機會臺北擠了更多的人口結果你用人口去強行分配難怪臺北拿最多新北拿最多這只會讓南北的差距更好對中南部嚴重極其不公平所以我認為這樣的修法其實是在對中南部\n259864\t284780\t真的是很不公平而且甚至於是在強化了縱北青南好不容易這幾年的執政努力的讓南北區域均衡發展縣市區域均衡我認為這個是在嚴重的包括甚至於我看到很多200增加2倍增加3倍全部都要攬贏的縣市這不會充滿了政治性的一個修法嗎先決定要給然後再決定來修法內容這對整個縣市的發展是公平的嗎而且試算修過之後比他原來的總預算還要多\n286687\t302086\t多很多!多很多!多兩倍!多三倍!有的多到三倍!而且那三倍的錢還不知道做什麼使用?所以剛剛有很多人在講說這修法這是最大問題全國的國家的餅就這麼大你瞬間拿走了3000多億3753億\n305710\t329182\t錢就這麼多嘛你拿走了中央當然就沒錢了嘛中央沒錢所以各部會現在開始在講會盤點會影響到很多的重大的建設包括軌道運輸會影響到包括這個這個所有的一些治水也會影響到包括這個福利也會影響到因為很多是跨縣事件的問題嘛中央本來可以做的現在完全沒有所以很多人老是在講說啊你高雄增加了245億啊你屏東增加了134億你還不滿足問題是\n333744\t346534\t就高雄來看增加了245億但是明年的700億的本來可以分配到的因為你中央被拿走了3000多億後可能恐怕只剩下300億也就是說實質上會減少了將近300億到400億實質上光高雄跟屏東未來明年絕對是負成長\n353759\t377070\t總統府長是副城長。對屏東公平嗎?對屏東不公平。對屏東更不公平。如果看到這樣的精算數字,包括未來總統準備退稅款之後,變成了屏東款額減少了96億。是啊。所以更不公平。就整個總的來看,國家財政這麼多嘛,你現在不要講的一副好像你挖那麼多錢來給的你這些錢。你在國家錢挖出來之後,變成國家未來補助的會更少。所以\n377910\t403078\t高雄、屏東、台南我可以預計明年度全部都是負成長全部都減少不要再講什麼245億不要再什麼130億難道你不要嗎都是在騙屏東人騙高雄人騙台南人對他們都極其不公平所以我認為其實這件事情是嚴重的違憲同時是違反相關的紀律的財政紀律的我們認為政府機關應該要有所作為所以包括復議包括釋憲我們認為都應該進行你也想同意這樣的做法嗎是我們會窮極一切的憲政的說法\n407779\t434118\t這是為了台灣的長遠發展如果可以這樣子惡搞的話那財政絕對是崩壞了啦更何況這個過程完全沒有經過討論行政部門的意見也沒有進來然後各縣市政府意見沒有進來完全照那個分配比例然後只有三個人知道最終機密版本連現場在座的立委連我們都不知道這算什麼樣的立法這立法絕對是有問題的一個立法所以我們強烈反對我們要求這件事情應該要退回委員會重新討論重新審查\n435560\t436404\t臺北園謝謝潘秘書長接下來請\n","txt":"好,謝主席,請潘秘書長好,請潘秘書長\n委員長辛苦了我首先還是關心這個彩化法啦齁我看這個彩化法其實首先我要講程序上就有很重大的問題啦其實剛剛黃國昌委員講了那麼多齁這個2014年跟現在他大概是完全不一樣的彩化法裡面在委員會3分鐘出去朝野沒有協商然後在這個院會的時候一個小時內提出8個版本\n幾乎是然後這個重大影響3000多月預算完全無法去計算很多立委連表決都不知道自己在表決出哪一種版本甚至於表決出多少預算作為曾經擔任過立法委員的幹事長的排名上這樣的程序沒有問題嗎第一個謝謝委員的推詢第一個程序上有很大的瑕疵第二個立法的背景修法我還是一柄初衷過去在當國會議員也好當縣長也好都是希望主張來修但\n不是在這種情境之下來修沒有充分討論只有垂直的憑空挖走3000億那沒有任何的細項科目甚至也沒有去跟各縣市討論他整個福地比如以屏東縣而言他有33個鄉鎮市的自治機關也要去分配\n所以基本上它跟直轄市不一樣而直轄市六都佔了61%左右的中央政府總預算24%才用在非六都的縣市本來就極其不公平但不是這樣的修法方式\n議員會議員會議員會議員會\n整個程序完全是沒有討論而且無法連行政部門都不知道版本會搞出什麼版本然後無法去計算這當然是重大的瑕疵我認為才化法出了很大的一個問題包括這個才化法我們談到實質內容來看好了\n過去秘書長也擔任過屏東縣長這對南台灣公平嗎?相當不公平比如說他用營業稅所有的國營事業的公司總公司都登記在台北污染卻是在高雄跟屏東台南那整個比如說以中鋼中油總公司登記在台北\n結果營業稅稅是繳在台北市結果污染的生產機率是在平台這就是一個很典型我有提了一個版本我提的版本就是要依照污染的貢獻度來分配合理分配像我的選區裡面的像剛剛你提到光台電就好了高雄台電有三個大電廠興達南部跟這個這個大林電廠\n公務有時候都還漂到屏東去但是總公司在臺北他的營業稅額放在臺北就照這樣分配所以我們看到臺北拿到了多少?拿到了最多416億新北因為人口拿到了374億而高雄只拿到了245億包括屏東也是全部縣市裡面拿最少高雄是6個慈祥市拿最 比例拿最 增加最少而屏東是所有的縣市比例拿最少的\n這對南我們以前常講不應該重北輕南這只讓南北的差距更加擴大作為南台灣出任你能接受這樣的法案嗎修正這個動議版捏更是在懲罰南部啦對於這些過去在城鄉落差比較大的反而懲罰的更嚴重\n這是極其不公平那尤其他們只是講在過去整個國家重大公共建設或是交通建設都在北部那北部反而的享有更多的資源又分配最多那這一點極其不公平律師長你看這個營業稅就已經凸顯出來了\n全部的工廠都在中南部多數都在臺北市臺北市佔盡了優勢所以分配到最多啊他已經牆上加牆了然後南北差距很好包括人口啦欸多少中南部的人只好這個到臺北來找尋更好的機會臺北擠了更多的人口結果你用人口去強行分配難怪臺北拿最多新北拿最多這只會讓南北的差距更好對中南部嚴重極其不公平所以我認為這樣的修法其實是在對中南部\n真的是很不公平而且甚至於是在強化了縱北青南好不容易這幾年的執政努力的讓南北區域均衡發展縣市區域均衡我認為這個是在嚴重的包括甚至於我看到很多200增加2倍增加3倍全部都要攬贏的縣市這不會充滿了政治性的一個修法嗎先決定要給然後再決定來修法內容這對整個縣市的發展是公平的嗎而且試算修過之後比他原來的總預算還要多\n多很多!多很多!多兩倍!多三倍!有的多到三倍!而且那三倍的錢還不知道做什麼使用?所以剛剛有很多人在講說這修法這是最大問題全國的國家的餅就這麼大你瞬間拿走了3000多億3753億\n錢就這麼多嘛你拿走了中央當然就沒錢了嘛中央沒錢所以各部會現在開始在講會盤點會影響到很多的重大的建設包括軌道運輸會影響到包括這個這個所有的一些治水也會影響到包括這個福利也會影響到因為很多是跨縣事件的問題嘛中央本來可以做的現在完全沒有所以很多人老是在講說啊你高雄增加了245億啊你屏東增加了134億你還不滿足問題是\n就高雄來看增加了245億但是明年的700億的本來可以分配到的因為你中央被拿走了3000多億後可能恐怕只剩下300億也就是說實質上會減少了將近300億到400億實質上光高雄跟屏東未來明年絕對是負成長\n總統府長是副城長。對屏東公平嗎?對屏東不公平。對屏東更不公平。如果看到這樣的精算數字,包括未來總統準備退稅款之後,變成了屏東款額減少了96億。是啊。所以更不公平。就整個總的來看,國家財政這麼多嘛,你現在不要講的一副好像你挖那麼多錢來給的你這些錢。你在國家錢挖出來之後,變成國家未來補助的會更少。所以\n高雄、屏東、台南我可以預計明年度全部都是負成長全部都減少不要再講什麼245億不要再什麼130億難道你不要嗎都是在騙屏東人騙高雄人騙台南人對他們都極其不公平所以我認為其實這件事情是嚴重的違憲同時是違反相關的紀律的財政紀律的我們認為政府機關應該要有所作為所以包括復議包括釋憲我們認為都應該進行你也想同意這樣的做法嗎是我們會窮極一切的憲政的說法\n這是為了台灣的長遠發展如果可以這樣子惡搞的話那財政絕對是崩壞了啦更何況這個過程完全沒有經過討論行政部門的意見也沒有進來然後各縣市政府意見沒有進來完全照那個分配比例然後只有三個人知道最終機密版本連現場在座的立委連我們都不知道這算什麼樣的立法這立法絕對是有問題的一個立法所以我們強烈反對我們要求這件事情應該要退回委員會重新討論重新審查\n臺北園謝謝潘秘書長接下來請\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.786 --> 00:03.048\n好,謝主席,請潘秘書長好,請潘秘書長\n\n00:07.932 --> 00:31.618\n委員長辛苦了我首先還是關心這個彩化法啦齁我看這個彩化法其實首先我要講程序上就有很重大的問題啦其實剛剛黃國昌委員講了那麼多齁這個2014年跟現在他大概是完全不一樣的彩化法裡面在委員會3分鐘出去朝野沒有協商然後在這個院會的時候一個小時內提出8個版本\n\n00:32.595 --> 01:00.376\n幾乎是然後這個重大影響3000多月預算完全無法去計算很多立委連表決都不知道自己在表決出哪一種版本甚至於表決出多少預算作為曾經擔任過立法委員的幹事長的排名上這樣的程序沒有問題嗎第一個謝謝委員的推詢第一個程序上有很大的瑕疵第二個立法的背景修法我還是一柄初衷過去在當國會議員也好當縣長也好都是希望主張來修但\n\n01:00.896 --> 01:20.179\n不是在這種情境之下來修沒有充分討論只有垂直的憑空挖走3000億那沒有任何的細項科目甚至也沒有去跟各縣市討論他整個福地比如以屏東縣而言他有33個鄉鎮市的自治機關也要去分配\n\n01:20.780 --> 01:36.596\n所以基本上它跟直轄市不一樣而直轄市六都佔了61%左右的中央政府總預算24%才用在非六都的縣市本來就極其不公平但不是這樣的修法方式\n\n01:59.696 --> 02:12.513\n整個程序完全是沒有討論而且無法連行政部門都不知道版本會搞出什麼版本然後無法去計算這當然是重大的瑕疵我認為才化法出了很大的一個問題包括這個才化法我們談到實質內容來看好了\n\n02:14.936 --> 02:30.873\n過去秘書長也擔任過屏東縣長這對南台灣公平嗎?相當不公平比如說他用營業稅所有的國營事業的公司總公司都登記在台北污染卻是在高雄跟屏東台南那整個比如說以中鋼中油總公司登記在台北\n\n02:31.594 --> 02:48.464\n結果營業稅稅是繳在台北市結果污染的生產機率是在平台這就是一個很典型我有提了一個版本我提的版本就是要依照污染的貢獻度來分配合理分配像我的選區裡面的像剛剛你提到光台電就好了高雄台電有三個大電廠興達南部跟這個這個大林電廠\n\n02:52.426 --> 03:17.664\n公務有時候都還漂到屏東去但是總公司在臺北他的營業稅額放在臺北就照這樣分配所以我們看到臺北拿到了多少?拿到了最多416億新北因為人口拿到了374億而高雄只拿到了245億包括屏東也是全部縣市裡面拿最少高雄是6個慈祥市拿最比例拿最增加最少而屏東是所有的縣市比例拿最少的\n\n03:18.304 --> 03:33.264\n這對南我們以前常講不應該重北輕南這只讓南北的差距更加擴大作為南台灣出任你能接受這樣的法案嗎修正這個動議版捏更是在懲罰南部啦對於這些過去在城鄉落差比較大的反而懲罰的更嚴重\n\n03:34.345 --> 03:47.829\n這是極其不公平那尤其他們只是講在過去整個國家重大公共建設或是交通建設都在北部那北部反而的享有更多的資源又分配最多那這一點極其不公平律師長你看這個營業稅就已經凸顯出來了\n\n03:51.690 --> 04:19.304\n全部的工廠都在中南部多數都在臺北市臺北市佔盡了優勢所以分配到最多啊他已經牆上加牆了然後南北差距很好包括人口啦欸多少中南部的人只好這個到臺北來找尋更好的機會臺北擠了更多的人口結果你用人口去強行分配難怪臺北拿最多新北拿最多這只會讓南北的差距更好對中南部嚴重極其不公平所以我認為這樣的修法其實是在對中南部\n\n04:19.864 --> 04:44.780\n真的是很不公平而且甚至於是在強化了縱北青南好不容易這幾年的執政努力的讓南北區域均衡發展縣市區域均衡我認為這個是在嚴重的包括甚至於我看到很多200增加2倍增加3倍全部都要攬贏的縣市這不會充滿了政治性的一個修法嗎先決定要給然後再決定來修法內容這對整個縣市的發展是公平的嗎而且試算修過之後比他原來的總預算還要多\n\n04:46.687 --> 05:02.086\n多很多!多很多!多兩倍!多三倍!有的多到三倍!而且那三倍的錢還不知道做什麼使用?所以剛剛有很多人在講說這修法這是最大問題全國的國家的餅就這麼大你瞬間拿走了3000多億3753億\n\n05:05.710 --> 05:29.182\n錢就這麼多嘛你拿走了中央當然就沒錢了嘛中央沒錢所以各部會現在開始在講會盤點會影響到很多的重大的建設包括軌道運輸會影響到包括這個這個所有的一些治水也會影響到包括這個福利也會影響到因為很多是跨縣事件的問題嘛中央本來可以做的現在完全沒有所以很多人老是在講說啊你高雄增加了245億啊你屏東增加了134億你還不滿足問題是\n\n05:33.744 --> 05:46.534\n就高雄來看增加了245億但是明年的700億的本來可以分配到的因為你中央被拿走了3000多億後可能恐怕只剩下300億也就是說實質上會減少了將近300億到400億實質上光高雄跟屏東未來明年絕對是負成長\n\n05:53.759 --> 06:17.070\n總統府長是副城長。對屏東公平嗎?對屏東不公平。對屏東更不公平。如果看到這樣的精算數字,包括未來總統準備退稅款之後,變成了屏東款額減少了96億。是啊。所以更不公平。就整個總的來看,國家財政這麼多嘛,你現在不要講的一副好像你挖那麼多錢來給的你這些錢。你在國家錢挖出來之後,變成國家未來補助的會更少。所以\n\n06:17.910 --> 06:43.078\n高雄、屏東、台南我可以預計明年度全部都是負成長全部都減少不要再講什麼245億不要再什麼130億難道你不要嗎都是在騙屏東人騙高雄人騙台南人對他們都極其不公平所以我認為其實這件事情是嚴重的違憲同時是違反相關的紀律的財政紀律的我們認為政府機關應該要有所作為所以包括復議包括釋憲我們認為都應該進行你也想同意這樣的做法嗎是我們會窮極一切的憲政的說法\n\n06:47.779 --> 07:14.118\n這是為了台灣的長遠發展如果可以這樣子惡搞的話那財政絕對是崩壞了啦更何況這個過程完全沒有經過討論行政部門的意見也沒有進來然後各縣市政府意見沒有進來完全照那個分配比例然後只有三個人知道最終機密版本連現場在座的立委連我們都不知道這算什麼樣的立法這立法絕對是有問題的一個立法所以我們強烈反對我們要求這件事情應該要退回委員會重新討論重新審查\n\n07:15.560 --> 07:16.404\n臺北園謝謝潘秘書長接下來請\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.786,"end":3.048,"text":"好,謝主席,請潘秘書長好,請潘秘書長"},{"start":7.932,"end":31.618,"text":"委員長辛苦了我首先還是關心這個彩化法啦齁我看這個彩化法其實首先我要講程序上就有很重大的問題啦其實剛剛黃國昌委員講了那麼多齁這個2014年跟現在他大概是完全不一樣的彩化法裡面在委員會3分鐘出去朝野沒有協商然後在這個院會的時候一個小時內提出8個版本"},{"start":32.595,"end":60.376,"text":"幾乎是然後這個重大影響3000多月預算完全無法去計算很多立委連表決都不知道自己在表決出哪一種版本甚至於表決出多少預算作為曾經擔任過立法委員的幹事長的排名上這樣的程序沒有問題嗎第一個謝謝委員的推詢第一個程序上有很大的瑕疵第二個立法的背景修法我還是一柄初衷過去在當國會議員也好當縣長也好都是希望主張來修但"},{"start":60.896,"end":80.179,"text":"不是在這種情境之下來修沒有充分討論只有垂直的憑空挖走3000億那沒有任何的細項科目甚至也沒有去跟各縣市討論他整個福地比如以屏東縣而言他有33個鄉鎮市的自治機關也要去分配"},{"start":80.78,"end":96.596,"text":"所以基本上它跟直轄市不一樣而直轄市六都佔了61%左右的中央政府總預算24%才用在非六都的縣市本來就極其不公平但不是這樣的修法方式"},{"start":99.019,"end":119.616,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會"},{"start":119.696,"end":132.513,"text":"整個程序完全是沒有討論而且無法連行政部門都不知道版本會搞出什麼版本然後無法去計算這當然是重大的瑕疵我認為才化法出了很大的一個問題包括這個才化法我們談到實質內容來看好了"},{"start":134.936,"end":150.873,"text":"過去秘書長也擔任過屏東縣長這對南台灣公平嗎?相當不公平比如說他用營業稅所有的國營事業的公司總公司都登記在台北污染卻是在高雄跟屏東台南那整個比如說以中鋼中油總公司登記在台北"},{"start":151.594,"end":168.464,"text":"結果營業稅稅是繳在台北市結果污染的生產機率是在平台這就是一個很典型我有提了一個版本我提的版本就是要依照污染的貢獻度來分配合理分配像我的選區裡面的像剛剛你提到光台電就好了高雄台電有三個大電廠興達南部跟這個這個大林電廠"},{"start":172.426,"end":197.664,"text":"公務有時候都還漂到屏東去但是總公司在臺北他的營業稅額放在臺北就照這樣分配所以我們看到臺北拿到了多少?拿到了最多416億新北因為人口拿到了374億而高雄只拿到了245億包括屏東也是全部縣市裡面拿最少高雄是6個慈祥市拿最 比例拿最 增加最少而屏東是所有的縣市比例拿最少的"},{"start":198.304,"end":213.264,"text":"這對南我們以前常講不應該重北輕南這只讓南北的差距更加擴大作為南台灣出任你能接受這樣的法案嗎修正這個動議版捏更是在懲罰南部啦對於這些過去在城鄉落差比較大的反而懲罰的更嚴重"},{"start":214.345,"end":227.829,"text":"這是極其不公平那尤其他們只是講在過去整個國家重大公共建設或是交通建設都在北部那北部反而的享有更多的資源又分配最多那這一點極其不公平律師長你看這個營業稅就已經凸顯出來了"},{"start":231.69,"end":259.304,"text":"全部的工廠都在中南部多數都在臺北市臺北市佔盡了優勢所以分配到最多啊他已經牆上加牆了然後南北差距很好包括人口啦欸多少中南部的人只好這個到臺北來找尋更好的機會臺北擠了更多的人口結果你用人口去強行分配難怪臺北拿最多新北拿最多這只會讓南北的差距更好對中南部嚴重極其不公平所以我認為這樣的修法其實是在對中南部"},{"start":259.864,"end":284.78,"text":"真的是很不公平而且甚至於是在強化了縱北青南好不容易這幾年的執政努力的讓南北區域均衡發展縣市區域均衡我認為這個是在嚴重的包括甚至於我看到很多200增加2倍增加3倍全部都要攬贏的縣市這不會充滿了政治性的一個修法嗎先決定要給然後再決定來修法內容這對整個縣市的發展是公平的嗎而且試算修過之後比他原來的總預算還要多"},{"start":286.687,"end":302.086,"text":"多很多!多很多!多兩倍!多三倍!有的多到三倍!而且那三倍的錢還不知道做什麼使用?所以剛剛有很多人在講說這修法這是最大問題全國的國家的餅就這麼大你瞬間拿走了3000多億3753億"},{"start":305.71,"end":329.182,"text":"錢就這麼多嘛你拿走了中央當然就沒錢了嘛中央沒錢所以各部會現在開始在講會盤點會影響到很多的重大的建設包括軌道運輸會影響到包括這個這個所有的一些治水也會影響到包括這個福利也會影響到因為很多是跨縣事件的問題嘛中央本來可以做的現在完全沒有所以很多人老是在講說啊你高雄增加了245億啊你屏東增加了134億你還不滿足問題是"},{"start":333.744,"end":346.534,"text":"就高雄來看增加了245億但是明年的700億的本來可以分配到的因為你中央被拿走了3000多億後可能恐怕只剩下300億也就是說實質上會減少了將近300億到400億實質上光高雄跟屏東未來明年絕對是負成長"},{"start":353.759,"end":377.07,"text":"總統府長是副城長。對屏東公平嗎?對屏東不公平。對屏東更不公平。如果看到這樣的精算數字,包括未來總統準備退稅款之後,變成了屏東款額減少了96億。是啊。所以更不公平。就整個總的來看,國家財政這麼多嘛,你現在不要講的一副好像你挖那麼多錢來給的你這些錢。你在國家錢挖出來之後,變成國家未來補助的會更少。所以"},{"start":377.91,"end":403.078,"text":"高雄、屏東、台南我可以預計明年度全部都是負成長全部都減少不要再講什麼245億不要再什麼130億難道你不要嗎都是在騙屏東人騙高雄人騙台南人對他們都極其不公平所以我認為其實這件事情是嚴重的違憲同時是違反相關的紀律的財政紀律的我們認為政府機關應該要有所作為所以包括復議包括釋憲我們認為都應該進行你也想同意這樣的做法嗎是我們會窮極一切的憲政的說法"},{"start":407.779,"end":434.118,"text":"這是為了台灣的長遠發展如果可以這樣子惡搞的話那財政絕對是崩壞了啦更何況這個過程完全沒有經過討論行政部門的意見也沒有進來然後各縣市政府意見沒有進來完全照那個分配比例然後只有三個人知道最終機密版本連現場在座的立委連我們都不知道這算什麼樣的立法這立法絕對是有問題的一個立法所以我們強烈反對我們要求這件事情應該要退回委員會重新討論重新審查"},{"start":435.56,"end":436.404,"text":"臺北園謝謝潘秘書長接下來請"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1578,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（12時15分）謝謝主席，請潘秘書長。"],["主席：好，請潘秘書長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：秘書長辛苦了。"],["潘秘書長孟安：委員辛苦了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我首先還是關心財劃法，這個財劃法首先我要講程序上就有很重大的問題，剛剛黃國昌委員講了那麼多，這個2014年跟現在是完全不一樣的，財劃法在委員會3分鐘送出去，朝野沒有協商，然後在院會1個小時內提出8個版本，這個這麼重大，影響三千多億預算，卻完全無法去計算，很多立委連表決都不知道自己在表決哪一種版本，甚至於表決出多少預算，作為曾經擔任過立法委員、幹事長的潘秘書長，這樣的程序沒有問題嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：謝謝委員的垂詢，第一個程序上有很大的瑕疵，第二個立法的背景修法我還是一本初衷，過去在當國會議員也好、當縣長也好，都是希望主張來修，但不是在這種情境之下來修，沒有充分討論，只有垂直的憑空挖走3,000億，沒有任何的細項科目，甚至也沒有去跟各縣市討論，整個幅地，比如說以屏東縣而言，有33個鄉鎮市的自治機關也要去分配，所以基本上它跟直轄市不一樣，而直轄市六都占了61%左右的中央政府總預算，24%才用在非六都的縣市，本來就極其不公平，但不是這樣的修法方式。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個充滿了巨大的問題，照理說我們是委員會中心主義，應該委員會內要充分討論，讓各部會交換意見，讓各縣市首長……結果那次陳其邁市長來了也不給他講話，同時間各部會的意見完全沒有進來，最後終極版本大概只有3個人知道，然後送出來之後馬上要表決過關，這樣形同整個程序完全是沒有討論，而且連行政部門都不知道會搞出什麼版本，無法去計算，這當然是重大的瑕疵。"],["潘秘書長孟安：是，沒錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我認為財劃法出了很大的一個問題，包括財劃法我們談到實質內容，過去秘書長也擔任過屏東縣長，這對南臺灣公平嗎？你認為呢？"],["潘秘書長孟安：相當不公平，比如說它是用營業稅，所有國營事業的總公司都登記在臺北，污染卻是在高雄跟屏東、臺南，比如中鋼、中油總公司登記在臺北，營業稅是繳在臺北市，結果污染的生產基地是在屏東、在高雄。"],["賴委員瑞隆：秘書長，這就是一個很典型的，我有提了一個版本，我提的版本就是要依照污染的貢獻度來合理分配，像我的選區剛剛你提到的台電，高雄台電有三個大電廠：興達、南部跟大林電廠，空污有時候都還飄到屏東去，但是總公司在臺北，它的營業稅額放在臺北，結果照這樣分配。所以我們看到臺北拿到了多少？拿到了最多416億，新北因為人口拿到了374億，而高雄只拿到245億，包括屏東也是全部縣市裡面拿最少，高雄是六個直轄市比例增加最少，而屏東是所有的縣市比例拿最少的。"],["潘秘書長孟安：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們以前常講不應該重北輕南，這只是讓南北的差距更加擴大，作為南臺灣出生的你能接受這樣的法案嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：修正動議版更是在懲罰南部，對於這些過去城鄉落差比較大的反而懲罰的更嚴重，這是極其不公平，尤其他們只是講過去整個國家重大公共建設或是交通建設都是在北部，北部反而享有更多的資源又分配最多，這一點極其不公平。"],["賴委員瑞隆：秘書長你看，這個營業稅就已經凸顯出來了，全部的工廠都在中南部，而多數都在臺北市，臺北市占盡了優勢。"],["潘秘書長孟安：沒錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以才分配到最多啊！它已經強上加強，然後南北差距擴大，包括人口，多少中南部的人只好到臺北來找尋更好的機會，臺北擠了更多的人口，結果你用人口去強行分配，難怪臺北拿最多、新北拿最多，這只會讓南北的差距更加擴大，對中南部嚴重極其不公平。所以我認為這樣的修法對中南部真的很不公平，甚至於是強化了重北輕南，好不容易這幾年的執政努力的讓南北區域均衡發展、縣市區域均衡發展，我認為這個是嚴重的，包括我看到很多增加2倍、增加3倍的全部都在藍營的縣市，這不會是充滿了政治性的修法嗎？先決定要給，然後再決定修法內容，這對整個縣市的發展是公平的嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：而且試算修過之後，比它原來的總預算還要多，領的比原來那個縣市的總預算要多！"],["賴委員瑞隆：多很多，多2倍、多3倍。"],["潘秘書長孟安：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：有的多到3倍，而且那3倍的錢還不知道做什麼使用。"],["潘秘書長孟安：不知道要做什麼使用。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以剛剛有很多人在說這修法這是最大問題，國家的餅就這麼大，你瞬間拿走了3,753億，錢就這麼多，你拿走了，中央當然就沒錢了嘛，中央沒錢所以各部會現在開始在講，盤點會影響到很多的重大的建設，包括軌道運輸會影響到、包括所有的治水也會影響到、包括福利也會影響到，因為很多是跨縣市的問題嘛，中央本來可以做的現在完全不能做。所以很多人老是在講：你高雄增加了245億、你屏東增加了134億，你還不滿足？問題是就高雄來看增加了245億，但是明年的700億本來可以分配到的，因為中央被拿走了三千多億以後，恐怕只剩下300億，也就是實質上會減少將近300億到400億，實質上高雄跟屏東未來明年絕對是負成長，統籌分配款是負成長，這對高雄、屏東公平嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：對高雄不公平，對屏東更不公平，如果看到這樣的精算數字，包括未來中央統籌分配稅款之後變成屏東反而減少了96億，所以更不公平。"],["賴委員瑞隆：是啊，所以就整個總的來看，國家財政就這麼多嘛，你現在不要講得一副好像你挖那麼多錢來給你這些錢，你從國家錢挖出來之後，變成國家未來補助的會更少，所以高雄、屏東、臺南我可以預計明年度全部都是負成長，全部都減少，不要再講什麼245億、不要再講什麼134億，難道你不要嗎？這都是在騙屏東人、騙高雄人、騙臺南人，對他們都極其不公平。所以我認為其實這件事情嚴重違憲，同時是違反相關的財政紀律的，我們認為政府機關應該要有所作為，所以包括覆議、包括釋憲，我們認為都應該進行，秘書長同意這樣的做法嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：是，我們會窮極一切的憲政手段。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這是為了臺灣的長遠發展，如果可以這樣子惡搞的話，那財政絕對是崩壞的。"],["潘秘書長孟安：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：更何況這個過程完全沒有經過討論，行政部門的意見也沒有進來、各縣市政府意見沒有進來，完全照那個分配比例，然後只有3個人知道最終機密版本，連現場在座的立委、連我們都不知道，這算什麼樣的立法？這樣立法絕對是有問題的一個立法，所以我們強烈反對，我們要求這件事情應該要退回委員會重新討論、重新審查，好不好？"],["潘秘書長孟安：OK。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝秘書長。"],["主席：謝謝賴委員，謝謝潘秘書長。","接下來請徐富癸委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":228,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-22","speakers":["鍾佳濱","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","黃國昌","洪孟楷","賴瑞隆","徐富癸"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-25"],"gazette_id":"1141303","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1141303_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於總統府主管（不含中央研究院）收支部分；二、處理113\n年度中央政府總預算關於總統府預算凍結項目1案","agenda_id":"1141303_00001"}}}