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{\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 1834.849, \"end\": 1834.969, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 1834.969, \"end\": 1835.129, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1835.129, \"end\": 1835.149, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1835.149, \"end\": 1835.169, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1835.169, \"end\": 1835.229, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"備\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 1835.229, \"end\": 1835.349, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 1835.349, \"end\": 1835.369, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1835.369, \"end\": 1835.389, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"張\"}, {\"word\": \"綺\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,004 --> 00:00:07,206\n謝謝主席我們是不是請我們的卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選卓委員好院長好這個台積電宣布要投資一千億美元大概是3.3兆的台幣在美國建造的三座半導體廠還有包括研發中心請問院長你是什麼時候知道這個消息的\n\n2\n00:00:33,647 --> 00:00:57,277\n當然我們要正是說就是他甚至宣布的時候我們是同步的了解但是之前政府跟產業的接觸是平凡的而且是有效的所以你之前就知道這個訊息了嗎什麼時候知道的你之前就知道了嗎那你對你來說的話對美國來說當然是件好消息那對院長來說對台灣是好消息嗎我覺得產業界\n\n3\n00:00:58,069 --> 00:01:21,355\n去做全球的佈局對台灣都是力量的延伸只要在合乎國家的戰略佈局當中我覺得這個都是晶片絕對是我們國家的戰略物資那你今天有特別提到的這可是創造互惠共贏我們大家就要問到底台灣贏到什麼我們台灣有贏到美國的安全保證嗎還是恆頓就質疑嘛因為台積電像是護國神山才已經變成川普遺山\n\n4\n00:01:27,037 --> 00:01:44,458\n甚至政府有没有办法变成他们最大的靠山这是我们所讨论的因为这一次来说的话虽然你可以告诉大家这是全球的布局他日本有场美国也有场但是呢据说他这次去的是16艾米相当于一点\n\n5\n00:01:45,138 --> 00:02:00,280\n6奈米在我们高雄男子是2奈米我们认为已经非常先进的可是他如果过去到美国的时候可以用到1.6奈米更先进而且他的研发中心都出去了难免会让他觉得我们是整个根都被刨掉了\n\n6\n00:02:01,201 --> 00:02:26,053\n这是很多国人的疑虑哦而且你可以听到川普他今天所特别提到的如果台湾有事的话美国会被有很大的一个影响而且美国已经是因为台积电要过去了他们在这个半导体的产业上面具有很大的影响力院长你怎么看待对台湾还是好吗当我们的细顿似乎已经被销入的时候我们台湾的筹码到底是多还是少\n\n7\n00:02:27,231 --> 00:02:56,003\n臺灣有事全世界都會受到影響臺灣有事中國也不會沒事那我們現在努力的跟世界有門國家所努力的就是維持印太地區的我現在只夠問說台積電把所有的先進把所有的研發中心全部過去的最就是似乎是我們的戲盾已經被削弱了你對這件事情的看法我之前在這裡跟我原答覆的時候我說過我們希望達到四個原則第一個就是臺灣在這個製造領先的地位不會改變\n\n8\n00:02:56,923 --> 00:03:22,417\n所以無論做任何的海外的投資海外的設廠一定要維持台灣在市場領先地位好那院長不好意思我知道你的四個部分你之前講過那我要問一下經濟部長這件事情我們的投審會態度是如何因為你之前也告訴我們如果台積電要赴美的話你必須要有投審會的這個審查你敢跟川普說不嗎還是你覺得投審會根本沒有任何的部分就絕對是應該讓台積電過去了\n\n9\n00:03:26,856 --> 00:03:43,925\n報告委員我想就投審會的部分我們當然依照現行的法律規範我們會來審查那你魏哲佳跟我們的川普都已經站在那個地方了你還要審查什麼我們這個對外投資就是要審查\n\n10\n00:03:45,322 --> 00:03:50,650\n然後呢結果呢還要審查當然要審查好啦我如果你審查了結果我們99.9%啦應該是審查會通過嘛因為剛剛院長已經講過了台積電是佈局全世界嘛而且台積電已經高於台灣非常多的這個部分嘛\n\n11\n00:04:01,906 --> 00:04:28,464\n那我请问这是跟你过去提到的当川普提出了所谓的关税因为台积电要过去起码可以降低他在被克税的这样的一个危机稍微能够解决这个危机那部长也特别提到你21号当川普宣布要这个加重关税的时候你已经派次长江次长过去了嘛那个时候你告诉我们说你要跟川普的团队来对于关税问题做沟通然后到25号你被问到的时候呢你说\n\n12\n00:04:29,225 --> 00:04:32,140\n不是沟通是去情搜所以到底是去幹嘛\n\n13\n00:04:33,305 --> 00:05:00,226\n我們當然是去情搜啊那你之前有沒有跟川普的團隊溝通到你有沒有跟川普的團隊溝通到台積電嗎我們不是去談判的團隊啊那誰去談判團隊我們這個行政院有談判辦公室應該就是嘛經濟部就是你就是談判的團隊我只說你情搜到台積電要過去嗎因為你當初是去溝通你後來變成情搜所以我只問你情搜到什麼你這就像中華隊情搜可以贏球那你情搜到什麼美國的環境是怎麼樣\n\n14\n00:05:01,667 --> 00:05:16,716\n所以你獲得了台積電這一項的一個情搜的資料了嗎有沒有這一塊有沒有在你的情搜範圍當中我們只是去華府我們並沒有到那個亞利桑那去你們沒有所以你們曾經到什麼地方我們到華府啊\n\n15\n00:05:17,216 --> 00:05:31,959\n那有最很高的成績嗎可以了解整個產業的需求然後有對台灣未來跟美國這些所謂不管經濟安全的這項的物資有做出什麼樣的一個很好的一個情緒的自爆給帶回來可以給我們作為很大的參考嗎\n\n16\n00:05:33,171 --> 00:05:46,661\n我們去不是為台積電當然不是部長我只是要告訴你當你2月11號你告訴我們要去溝通然後你後來告訴我們要去勤搜我只是院長我真的認為如果只是勤搜的話請低調的去請低調的回來\n\n17\n00:05:48,482 --> 00:06:06,228\n要讓大家覺得好大的一個證照然後之後結果告訴我不是溝通然後只是輕鬆我覺得這是在用詞上面我們必須要去做個很精準的好接下來我還是要請兩位我還是要請院長我要問一下打詐的問題等一下我還有能源問題要請教部長但部長你可以先回去休息一下我們先來問一下打詐\n\n18\n00:06:07,475 --> 00:06:25,752\n院长我还是要让你看一下一个一个数据啊打仗目前来说全民都在受苦但是呢你看到没有这是我们根据我们公开的资料里面提到的110年的时候呢我们才损的金额是56亿院长113年是502亿\n\n19\n00:06:28,234 --> 00:06:46,953\n你可以看出这个巨幅的差距吗而且你看看我们那时候在110年只有24000件到了113年竟然有高达12万多件你看这个诈骗的金额可以说是110年的9倍那你如果要看起来的话我可以跟院长讲\n\n20\n00:06:47,875 --> 00:06:53,123\n這個時候平均一天是336件詐騙我們一天是損失1億3769萬那院長當你看到數字差距這麼大的時候你不會產生懷疑嗎好謝謝委員\n\n21\n00:07:01,567 --> 00:07:19,963\n我也承認打炸這件事情國人的關心政府的努力還遠不及國人對政府的要求這個我們清楚所以我們每天每天都在精進那為什麼數字上會有這麼大的一個變化我們從去年九月開始我們是改變了整個統計的數字這一點要讓國人知道很好院長我給你這點肯定我們再來看一下的確是這個樣子\n\n22\n00:07:26,229 --> 00:07:53,879\n因為你看你們改變了一個數據所以我明顯調列出來了嘛你看九月跟八月就差距很多嘛你看你到了八月的時候你還是只有14億而已喔可能你到了八九月的時候竟然就到86億這代表什麼因為那時候警政署還有所有相關單位都告訴我們之前因為人力不足嘛秦松有問題嘛所以我們只能讓比較容易破能把它登錄上去九月之後就幾乎人家只要一報你就登上去嘛對不對這代表什麼\n\n23\n00:07:55,179 --> 00:08:14,495\n代表九月之后处理是对的代表八月之前拍摄院长部长们表示我们有很多的黑数吗对不对就表示我们国人过去在过去110年到去年到今年八月去年八月之前我们有很多的黑数那个金额就不止止是我们所看到的那样而已吗没错吧\n\n24\n00:08:14,775 --> 00:08:43,034\n用黑數可能過於簡單的形容它是統計方式的不一樣因為你看五百多億一個行為人針對十件案件以前可能是一件現在變成十件五百零二億跟八十八億這個差距真的是有點大我只能提醒你過去所公布的數字真的比我們大家所感知的數字差距太多但是我還是給你肯定九月之後這樣做是對的好不好我們給予更多的人力以後就繼續這樣子\n\n25\n00:08:44,615 --> 00:09:09,395\n這個變化讓大家知道是有在努力我們還會更努力但是很可怕五百多億一天就要一億多院長這很恐怖但是你看我們這邊的猖狂我們這邊的猖狂可是你看我還是調列出來你看我們過去從2016年打詐這個犯罪中心然後你又把它變成打詐國家對又變成打詐辦公室然後你現在變成行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心\n\n26\n00:09:10,376 --> 00:09:13,139\n院長啊白天換來換過去就像那個騙數騙來騙過去喔還是讓我們達到506億啦院長這是很恐怖的數字啦我再次的說明我們的努力跟人民的期待還是有落差但是我還是強調那句話\n\n27\n00:09:25,253 --> 00:09:52,791\n是越打越多而是不打會更多但我們持續在今年從春節之後各項的數字是在明顯緩緩的下降這個是每週的數字好所以我們現在記住了現在是五百零多億我希望明年在在那不要明年啊像會期如果你還在的話我希望我得到的一個數字會比現在的數字來的在如實呈報之後這個數字就會往下降我們共同來期許好不好請部長說明一下簡單說明\n\n28\n00:09:53,892 --> 00:10:08,833\n謝謝委員的關心我想也因為是立法院有通過打詐司法以後內政部跟其他四五個部會都可以成立這樣子打詐的一條龍這樣子對於防止打詐或者是說對打詐的真實性會呈現給國人面前當然我們還是需要努力\n\n29\n00:10:09,193 --> 00:10:22,384\n也請委員多多指教數字上面呈現的連我自己都遭受過被詐騙的一個經驗對不對所以這個經驗已經完全是我們人民的一個日常給予你最大的一個期許但是我覺得這個數字就像如實的呈現但是確實在緩緩下降當中我們就來看看我們還是從一年當中來去看待這才是最真實的好不好\n\n30\n00:10:29,130 --> 00:10:55,424\n千萬不要為了美化數字而做的很多其他的一些事情好感謝那接下來我們來關切一些能源的問題啊我還是要特別強調當我們全世界都走向核能的新紀元的時候呢恭喜2025終於可能要變成非核家園了但是我還是要請教院長啊當全世界越來越多國家想要增加我們對核能這個所謂新技術的研發的時候呢我們今年可以說是個非核\n\n31\n00:10:56,485 --> 00:11:17,172\n那我們國民黨身為最大黨我說實在的我們主張把非碳家園來取代非核家園所以我們提出一些的修法我不曉得院長跟部長對於非碳家園這樣子的一個走向你們的看法是如何非碳家園難道是連火力連天然氣都不能嗎因為它都是有碳的\n\n32\n00:11:17,611 --> 00:11:39,786\n我就我只能告訴他說非泰來說的話是未來的全世界的一個趨勢所以我們會對於今年的這個核子反應器的設施管制辦法我們會提出的修法行政院會有相對的版本出來嗎對這件事情你說核管法核管法目前的規定我們是照核管法的規定我們會提出修法行政院的態度會是什麼大院的任何的法律院預算我說過只要符合憲法\n\n33\n00:11:46,756 --> 00:12:10,996\n為什麼我要特別提出這個問題只要是經過充分的討論民主的程序你經過非常多社會的對話你也告訴我們政府可以全面討論有關於核能技術而且你承諾在我們這個核電廠除役之後所有相關人員也不會離開這是院長講過的不要求台電要做什麼因為他們還有很多核後端的工作要做是沒有錯也有很多核的技術\n\n34\n00:12:11,937 --> 00:12:33,103\n可以在面臨核能的技術這是世界趨勢但是院長你知道嗎台電正在規劃要撤裁核能發電處院長你知道這件事嗎他們要撤裁喔台電內部有這麼規劃不知道但是整個政策是一致的核能新技術的接觸討論是開放的我們對核二端的處理還要持續進行\n\n35\n00:12:33,903 --> 00:12:52,774\n这些人员都是最有经验的所以你知道你知道他要撤财核能发电处你知道目前来说他们里面的人都是核工的人才他们就在质疑对自己的前途是非常的忧虑他们认为要发展新的核能这部分谁来当你把它撤财之后这些人难道未来只能管理核废料吗还有一件事情\n\n36\n00:12:53,174 --> 00:13:11,412\n你也可以反映在我們未來在很多國公費的流考當中我們沒有合共這一項我們合共過去所培養的人才現在全部被美國所有因為世界各國都需要核能的技術我們過去所培養的人才全部送過去我們反而在未來培養人才當中沒有這一項技術所以院長你真的不要告訴我我們對於核能\n\n37\n00:13:12,293 --> 00:13:24,547\n以民進黨當家還在對這一方面還是有所謂的一個會跟對話的空間像目前看不到我們是有這樣的空間也有這樣的準備請部長來答覆這個問題報告委員這個核能發電處您說要規劃財政\n\n38\n00:13:27,572 --> 00:13:43,659\n我是台電的主管但是我沒有收到這樣的訊息那你回去問一下好了可能內部的訊息我們比你更清楚院長的要求是這一些同仁雖然現在已經降載了但是人員都要保留\n\n39\n00:13:43,979 --> 00:13:57,831\n沒問題部長這是台電內部裡面你如果有的話請你明天你馬上打電話去問就知道好不好馬上給本席最後的一個結果我覺得這個就是一翻兩瞪眼有沒有再說馬上就可以看得出來但是我還是要討論啊因為\n\n40\n00:13:59,472 --> 00:14:28,473\n台电的目前来说的一个亏损的状况以至于我觉得上次的部长台说你愿意用很多的方法来求得我们能够给予台电两千亿的这样一个播组这是我们彼此之间的对话但是部长你知道院长你知道吗台电如果是在不断的用这个拨补的方法还是没有办法解决台电的亏损因为核心的问题是在什么因为我们当然知道再生能源非常的重要但是呢以目前我们台湾的发展来说购电成本大幅的增加\n\n41\n00:14:28,973 --> 00:14:51,272\n所以你卖的电越多用的电越多我们台电的亏损就越多嘛这是一个数据嘛过去我们可以告诉大家2022到2024的时候我们这个所谓的燃料支出因为恶务战争的已经过去的整个的成本已经下降了所以你完全很出来了我们的支出已经减少了1130亿啊但是我们购电的成本却来到了3095亿\n\n42\n00:14:53,154 --> 00:15:11,167\n你可以看得出来我们如果跟2022比起来的话我们是多增加645亿如果你再回到116年的106年的话2016年的话那是增加的1935亿如果我们的再生能源是这种方法的话其实你再多补多少是没有办法的我们再来看\n\n43\n00:15:11,787 --> 00:15:28,879\n你這個東西每年都要再去這樣去漲所以說你如果是這個方式繼續下去的話院長我們4月是不是要調漲電費而且可能到9%以上的這個電費是不是每當我們持續這個問題的時候你們就告訴我喔這個就是國民黨黨預算所以非得如何真的不是這樣事實擺在這個地方嘛你看\n\n44\n00:15:31,181 --> 00:15:51,258\n台電自己自發的電力火力發電2.87啊你外購就要3.46啊你風電6.59啊就是比別還要多啊這是個事實擺在這個地方就誠如我剛所說吧你右電越多你買電越多你的虧損就越多嘛那這裡面到底有沒有有些問題當然有你看以風電來說是最貴的風電出了什麼問題過去來說\n\n45\n00:15:54,821 --> 00:16:12,986\n同意你们发展再生能源但是我们整个策略是有问题的你刚刚看风电开发我们刚开始是台电向我们的这个开发商来购电对不对那银行因为看到台电嘛就台电不会倒啊就会给融资这没有问题后来你发现大家看到没有这个阶段\n\n46\n00:16:13,726 --> 00:16:31,802\n但是現在來說的話能源政策裡面現在風電要開發目前來說因為受不了了你就開始要找到別的機構我不曉得經濟部是誰想出綠電信保機制CPPA你要風電商自己去找買家而且一買就要買20年\n\n47\n00:16:33,644 --> 00:16:58,303\n没有一个厂商可以有一个公司可以说它可以到20年的所以呢很多人这个所谓的这个风电厂商想要撤掉这时候我们就告诉你公股银行全部来聚宝可以但是呢又加上国产化加上这通膨又很多人很多的我们这个人就想要撤资这时候又找了我们这些什么人找了中钢中华电讯\n\n48\n00:16:58,883 --> 00:17:21,541\n高鐵中油又進來做這樣的一個平台我真的不知道就像當初的中鋼總部在我們高雄我真的不知道這個海基這個所謂星達海基的事情64億的事情會不會因為這是你沒有設置所謂受電平台台製電的平台又會造成很大的虧損如果虧損的話不是一句話就可以解決了64億這是過去錯誤的經驗台製電會不會也造成這樣的一個問題台製電的設置就是要符合現在的整個\n\n49\n00:17:30,063 --> 00:17:49,872\n發電業跟受電業的這個生態也就是要解決這個企業不能每一次的購買20年的這樣一個限制把它扁平化之後能夠讓中小型的企業也能夠來買這是一個理想當然是你現在都把公股拿去做擔保了你現在把這一群國營事業全部跳下去了我根本覺得這不是交通\n\n50\n00:17:49,912 --> 00:18:05,191\n所以一方面是解決這20年的問題一方面也是我們解決中小企業能夠未來你剛出興達海淀的六十之一你也告訴我要解決這個問題最後的結果就是他們虧損的六十之一這是一個擺在的一個事實所以為什麼為什麼現在你的售電平台的時候大家就覺得台電已經虧損沒有辦法所以找這些\n\n51\n00:18:07,433 --> 00:18:32,241\n這些的供應單位一起來承擔這個受電平台服務的性質是最大的他不是要來盈利的他不是來從中得取利益的他是服務院長跟部長這些都是我們的理想我們也很希望往這方面來前進但是我已經點出了一個問題就是因為不斷的是這樣所以真正解決很多我們用電的問題其實你已經覺得要開放一個空間來做一個對話的空間你要不要看\n\n52\n00:18:32,881 --> 00:18:53,832\n我们光是在这个能源的问题上面国民党内部就有很多不同的一个争议我们大家说为什么要帮民进党的这个错误的能源政策来买单就让他这样子可是身为最大在野党我们听到的非常多企业的声音包括你的童子贤董事长也特别提到的新晋的核能也是一个选项部长刚上任的时候也同意从企业界来\n\n53\n00:18:54,252 --> 00:19:10,765\n所以我这么个人就好好的开放很多的这个专家是已经帮你看出来了如果你能够用心经的方法再让我们合能的部分其实台电的亏损可以达到最低最低甚至可以翻身这个东西已经有那么多人来提到我只是希望\n\n54\n00:19:11,365 --> 00:19:35,474\n能夠終結台電虧損的方法不用部長再用自身的保障只要我們每年撥補你你辦部長你也很辛苦很辛苦你也是我們民眾人但是大家說每次說我今年要撥補兩千你要如何如何明年說我要撥補兩千幫台電做這麼背書你直接講能源政策應該做修正符合世界的趨勢這才是我們應該走的道路對不對報告委員我可以回答\n\n55\n00:19:36,983 --> 00:19:44,272\n我們的撥補不是說來補我的虧損而是在補我們過去政府體驗民間一般的用電戶\n\n56\n00:19:48,086 --> 00:20:16,810\n我們是補貼那個不是來補貼我經營上面的虧損部長這我們的認識有點落差我的撥補也不是只有補台電的部分我現在的撥補是告訴你如果你用這個方法剛剛的數據你告訴你用這個方法一直下去不管是對於我們電價的平穩或是對台電的一個虧損能源的政策如果照這樣走下去還是一句話用電越多賣電越多我們的虧損就越多這個是目前我們所看到的數字好不好\n\n57\n00:20:17,250 --> 00:20:40,371\n三句話跟委員答覆第一個虧損因為戰爭的因素大家都知道了那已經過去了因為我們的成本已經下降了這幾年當中現在看這幾年當中台電快速的而且很多的電廠都在更新要投入更多的資產這個也是一個成本的負擔再來我們希望用企業的管理精神讓台電財務能夠自主所以\n\n58\n00:20:41,152 --> 00:21:10,162\n部長也講過未來的兩年如果大院跟我們合作我們一起讓台電過去的虧損因為補貼政策的虧損能夠彌補我們來讓它能夠進入正常營運的狀態我們今天在這個地方我可以聽得到下次我在質詢兩位的時候我應該可以期待我們的詐騙數字會下降我們對於台電的撥補會下降然後我們的用電也會平穩可能四月可能在這個漲價的這樣子的一個危機上面我們可以解除我們也期望做到這個地方好不好我們就來看看\n\n59\n00:21:10,922 --> 00:21:35,011\n我們所提出的本席只是提出可能發生的問題用數據來告訴你我也期望部長跟院長可以把這些狀況把它回去做一些的釐清好接下來還是需要大院的合作配合大院很想合作大院其實我們對於總預算各方面我們都很想合作如果不想合作的話為什麼我們要總統要喊起我們韓院長召集這麼多人來做這樣子的一個協商這個協商被你們的總召給拆台了\n\n60\n00:21:38,652 --> 00:21:48,629\n就被他拆台啦然後你還提出復議我覺得這個部分這個要從盤古開天開始說起來院長我的時間有限啦好不好我的開始是成功的一半我需要另外一半\n\n61\n00:21:49,714 --> 00:22:09,487\n問題是你一剛開始就不成功了一開始就被拆台了還有什麼好面牆下去的問題為了好的開始你旁邊就給你拆台了我們需要另外成功的另外一半我們還是繼續那你成功另外一半就不是柯總召了你拜託這位姓柯的可能好一點啊好的開始大家共同來談現在已經開始了院長已經開始了我覺得這個開始已經不是一個需要另外一半我們尋找可以跟你match的另外一半我們來看看急診室的問題\n\n62\n00:22:19,281 --> 00:22:35,227\n谢谢那个郭部长你可以先下去休息了我们来看看急诊这已经是非常非常多了我现在最后其实要帮这个急诊室的这些所谓的护理人员来说话因为我们本席的办公室里面不管在高雄到台北都受到非常多非常多的一个陈情啊我现在只请问\n\n63\n00:22:36,067 --> 00:22:54,473\n目前來說真的跟所有的不管是第一線的護理人員來看的話每年增加至少三十億這是你們所承諾的而且這是抓到點了終於從二月十八月十三到二十四開的三場會議之後都是被大家罵爆了終於提出三十億這個部分來說的話部長\n\n64\n00:22:56,494 --> 00:23:19,568\n有沒有辦法直接撥到護理人員的帳戶當中不用被醫院東扣西扣就像以前我們在COVID的時候即使撥補了有很多真的進到這個護理人員的這個帳戶裡面其實已經所剩無幾有沒有辦法利用這個部分裡面直接撥補到他們的帳戶裡面有沒有辦法做到報告委員我想如果是健保這個部分如果他已經被內到\n\n65\n00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:36,336\n我剛講的問題是非常簡單的因為像目前來說你每年增加30億嘛那其實我說實在的對於護理人員最重要的就是我們的友善醫療環境嘛我們的友善的醫療環境嘛\n\n66\n00:23:39,620 --> 00:24:01,405\n薪水提升我說實在的不是唯一的方法但起碼你可以讓大家覺得他的付出的辛勞是有的你看看馬建業院長每天在蓋章護理師每天欠缺這也是國安問題非常嚴重而且部長你是醫生出身的你也知道急診如果燒到開刀房會影響到我們的品質你知道現在最大的狀況是什麼嗎現在最大的狀況是資深的\n\n67\n00:24:06,326 --> 00:24:21,915\n我们现在出我们完全资深的被操到离职新来的被吓到离职那这完全是个恶性循环呢不是吗这目前所反映的一个状况已经反映非常久了所以你看我们现在目前所整理出来跟所有各团体所整理出来的\n\n68\n00:24:22,535 --> 00:24:41,738\n你即使你們所開出的藥方基本上對於醫護沒有辦法你把降低然後要多增加所謂的護理人員就沒人要來扣沒人要去買啊大家怕也怕死所以這個部分你們看而且新人沒有即戰力而且我剛所提到的嘛出售比例變得很大而且你想比較一下幾年前我們的護理師的平均年資\n\n69\n00:24:43,420 --> 00:25:06,119\n6.5已經跟歐美來說十幾年來說已經變低了現在更是而且你所提出的夜班的獎勵其實我說實在也是反效果我們大家只是在問醫師總統為什麼其實你讓我們的醫療單位其實瀕臨一個非常危急崩潰的一個狀況我們來看一下嘛到底我們到底我們有沒有對護理人員真的有沒有做到承諾\n\n70\n00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:28,545\n院长你应该知道嘛过去你看在2013年的11月的时候医师节的时候赖总统我们的赖医师特别承诺推三班护病笔入法每年至少200亿来提升医疗人员的待遇到底是信赖护理还是临时护理这是你们当初的承诺现在到哪里去了\n\n71\n00:25:29,551 --> 00:25:51,572\n跟委員報告至少我們在今年已經編列了66.85億在公務預算裡面做事件工作第一個就是推動三班輪值護理人員的直接獎勵第二點是三班貨幣比達到達標醫院的獎勵達標醫院給醫院的獎勵第三個是你說的護理新手導師的制度來來來院長院長這個是友善職場\n\n72\n00:25:55,075 --> 00:26:14,148\n來來來我跟你講你看你們就念茲在茲就要講這個護理導師的這個部分來我們看最後一頁裡面你講啊這是你們念茲在茲認為12項護理人員的政策的準備計畫你們把它拿出來當神一樣當聖經一樣其中我可以講出來護理新手臨床導師制度是3.6億沒錯吧部長你覺得自己得證你看3.6億到底用在什麼地方我告訴你\n\n73\n00:26:19,691 --> 00:26:35,764\n護理師特別是資深的護理師告訴你他本來的工作完全就用不完的還要帶一個新進的而且新進的很難帶最重要是你要申請這些經費你還要寫報告你要寫計劃書你們寫羊羊騷騷去問第一線的護理人員誰給你寫計劃書誰幫你帶新進人員你還告訴我你有3.6億你到底有沒有用對地方你們還拿出來當聖經說你們做了12項對護理人員做得這麼好\n\n74\n00:26:47,918 --> 00:27:08,172\n这就像你去视察一样,你只看到表层东下出来,下到11条但是我只问两件事嘛,有没有办法薪资直接,30亿承诺的直接汇到我们护理人员的薪资里面,直接汇入第二,你告诉我的导师制,导师制就告诉你不是这样啦,3.6亿没人要申请啦\n\n75\n00:27:09,933 --> 00:27:10,434\n我會背個報告一下\n\n76\n00:27:26,138 --> 00:27:42,982\n變成夜班的獎勵,那當然是直接就到婦理人員的身上你夜班獎勵又是被拿出來批評的因為大家覺得夜班獎勵就是相對的剝奪感你還把他拿出來當聖經保釘啊,你知不知道民間奇苦你真的是醫生出來的喔?還是醫生做醫生,你都看不到好處在身口啊嗯\n\n77\n00:27:48,883 --> 00:28:00,892\n護理員的辛苦我們當然了解而且剛你說這個平均的年資6.5真的是沒有錯7年來看對護理人員是一個離職率最高的一個時期因為他有種種家庭個人的因素\n\n78\n00:28:01,383 --> 00:28:19,232\n所以我們如何讓新進的人員能夠快速補充現在行政院跟考試院我們也建立一個考校用的平台希望未來能夠更實質的增加考用的人選能夠增加所以未來在考試的過程當中一定要比現在更優化不是降低而是普遍性\n\n79\n00:28:20,977 --> 00:28:45,074\n這個常識的水準能夠讓考試的人來進行到考試裡面來進到這個這就是你們所提出的策略但是我還是必須要說你前三次的最大的會議當中你們真的沒有問到基層人員我們為了這個急診室報診我們問了多少的團體訪談了多少的醫護人員他們真的還是很辛苦的告訴你你們真的是劃錯重點你不斷的希望有很多新人進來\n\n80\n00:28:45,814 --> 00:29:00,535\n第一个新人吓都被吓走而且呢目前来说就像当初我们推行的长照设备一样教育部开放了非常多有关于长照类似的系统那是没人要出来谈了因为我们整个的医疗环境一点都不友善\n\n81\n00:29:00,996 --> 00:29:18,964\n所以你去优化也没用你是护病笔也没用因为像没有人你去哪里比啊你跟谁比啊你到底找谁来来念啊你即使不管有没有优化还是门槛就是没有人因为大家已经被这个医疗环境给吓死了好不好要么不是被抄死就是被吓死这是目前我们第一线的问题\n\n82\n00:29:20,131 --> 00:29:43,789\n但是我還是跟委員報告兩年前我們的在職人員是8萬6千多人那現在是19萬3千多人還是有實質的進步只是他的流動率應該是蠻大你現在19萬是到什麼時候的數據今年1月的時候今年1月好那我們下次在質詢的時候我們再看看19萬19萬四五月畢業之後應該有一撥還會再增加起來院長\n\n83\n00:29:44,770 --> 00:30:08,862\n你真的完全如果是這樣子的話我們的醫護人員不會馬街的副院長天天在簽離職書啦這個東西的話真的也不要美化是數字如果這麼厲害的話真的說實在的醫護人員不能只靠他們對於病患對於醫學的一個熱忱我們這個不是做功德的這個實質的一個薪資待遇我還是強調我恭喜在大家一日之講一句話部長聽進去\n\n84\n00:30:10,563 --> 00:30:14,364\n基層的醫護人員就告訴你,現在不能改變太多,錢直接匯到帳戶\n\n85\n00:30:33,707 --> 00:30:35,389\n好謝謝柯志恩委員的資訊謝謝總院長相關部會所長的備詢接下來我們請張綺\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4004\t7206\t謝謝主席 我們是不是請我們的卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選卓委員好院長好這個台積電宣布要投資一千億美元大概是3.3兆的台幣在美國建造的三座半導體廠還有包括研發中心請問院長你是什麼時候知道這個消息的\n33647\t57277\t當然我們要正是說就是他甚至宣布的時候我們是同步的了解但是之前政府跟產業的接觸是平凡的而且是有效的所以你之前就知道這個訊息了嗎什麼時候知道的你之前就知道了嗎那你對你來說的話對美國來說當然是件好消息那對院長來說對台灣是好消息嗎我覺得產業界\n58069\t81355\t去做全球的佈局對台灣都是力量的延伸只要在合乎國家的戰略佈局當中我覺得這個都是晶片絕對是我們國家的戰略物資那你今天有特別提到的這可是創造互惠共贏我們大家就要問到底台灣贏到什麼我們台灣有贏到美國的安全保證嗎還是恆頓就質疑嘛因為台積電像是護國神山才已經變成川普遺山\n87037\t104458\t甚至政府有没有办法变成他们最大的靠山这是我们所讨论的因为这一次来说的话虽然你可以告诉大家这是全球的布局他日本有场美国也有场但是呢据说他这次去的是16艾米相当于一点\n105138\t120280\t6奈米在我们高雄男子是2奈米我们认为已经非常先进的可是他如果过去到美国的时候可以用到1.6奈米更先进而且他的研发中心都出去了难免会让他觉得我们是整个根都被刨掉了\n121201\t146053\t这是很多国人的疑虑哦而且你可以听到川普他今天所特别提到的如果台湾有事的话美国会被有很大的一个影响而且美国已经是因为台积电要过去了他们在这个半导体的产业上面具有很大的影响力院长你怎么看待对台湾还是好吗当我们的细顿似乎已经被销入的时候我们台湾的筹码到底是多还是少\n147231\t176003\t臺灣有事全世界都會受到影響臺灣有事中國也不會沒事那我們現在努力的跟世界有門國家所努力的就是維持印太地區的我現在只夠問說台積電把所有的先進把所有的研發中心全部過去的最就是似乎是我們的戲盾已經被削弱了你對這件事情的看法我之前在這裡跟我原答覆的時候我說過我們希望達到四個原則第一個就是臺灣在這個製造領先的地位不會改變\n176923\t202417\t所以無論做任何的海外的投資 海外的設廠一定要維持台灣在市場領先地位好 那院長不好意思我知道你的四個部分你之前講過 那我要問一下經濟部長這件事情我們的投審會態度是如何因為你之前也告訴我們如果台積電要赴美的話你必須要有投審會的這個審查你敢跟川普說不嗎還是你覺得投審會根本沒有任何的部分就絕對是應該讓台積電過去了\n206856\t223925\t報告委員我想就投審會的部分我們當然依照現行的法律規範我們會來審查那你魏哲佳跟我們的川普都已經站在那個地方了你還要審查什麼我們這個對外投資就是要審查\n225322\t230650\t然後呢 結果呢 還要審查當然要審查好啦 我如果你審查了結果我們99.9%啦 應該是審查會通過嘛因為剛剛 院長已經講過了台積電是佈局全世界嘛而且台積電已經高於台灣非常多的這個部分嘛\n241906\t268464\t那我请问这是跟你过去提到的当川普提出了所谓的关税因为台积电要过去起码可以降低他在被克税的这样的一个危机稍微能够解决这个危机那部长也特别提到你21号当川普宣布要这个加重关税的时候你已经派次长江次长过去了嘛那个时候你告诉我们说你要跟川普的团队来对于关税问题做沟通然后到25号你被问到的时候呢你说\n269225\t272140\t不是沟通 是去情搜所以到底是去幹嘛\n273305\t300226\t我們當然是去情搜啊那你之前有沒有跟川普的團隊溝通到你有沒有跟川普的團隊溝通到台積電嗎我們不是去談判的團隊啊那誰去談判團隊我們這個行政院有談判辦公室應該就是嘛 經濟部就是你就是談判的團隊我只說你情搜到台積電要過去嗎因為你當初是去溝通你後來變成情搜所以我只問你情搜到什麼你這就像中華隊情搜可以贏球那你情搜到什麼美國的環境是怎麼樣\n301667\t316716\t所以你獲得了台積電這一項的一個情搜的資料了嗎有沒有這一塊有沒有在你的情搜範圍當中我們只是去華府我們並沒有到那個亞利桑那去你們沒有所以你們曾經到什麼地方我們到華府啊\n317216\t331959\t那有最很高的成績嗎可以了解整個產業的需求然後有對台灣未來跟美國這些所謂不管經濟安全的這項的物資有做出什麼樣的一個很好的一個情緒的自爆給帶回來可以給我們作為很大的參考嗎\n333171\t346661\t我們去不是為台積電當然不是部長我只是要告訴你當你2月11號你告訴我們要去溝通然後你後來告訴我們要去勤搜我只是院長我真的認為如果只是勤搜的話請低調的去請低調的回來\n348482\t366228\t要讓大家覺得好大的一個證照然後之後結果告訴我不是溝通然後只是輕鬆我覺得這是在用詞上面我們必須要去做個很精準的好接下來我還是要請兩位我還是要請院長我要問一下打詐的問題等一下我還有能源問題要請教部長但部長你可以先回去休息一下我們先來問一下打詐\n367475\t385752\t院长我还是要让你看一下一个一个数据啊打仗目前来说全民都在受苦但是呢你看到没有这是我们根据我们公开的资料里面提到的110年的时候呢我们才损的金额是56亿院长113年是502亿\n388234\t406953\t你可以看出这个巨幅的差距吗而且你看看我们那时候在110年只有24000件到了113年竟然有高达12万多件你看这个诈骗的金额可以说是110年的9倍那你如果要看起来的话我可以跟院长讲\n407875\t413123\t這個時候平均一天是336件詐騙我們一天是損失1億3769萬那院長當你看到數字差距這麼大的時候你不會產生懷疑嗎好 謝謝委員\n421567\t439963\t我也承認打炸這件事情國人的關心政府的努力還遠不及國人對政府的要求這個我們清楚所以我們每天每天都在精進那為什麼數字上會有這麼大的一個變化我們從去年九月開始我們是改變了整個統計的數字這一點要讓國人知道很好 院長我給你這點肯定我們再來看一下的確是這個樣子\n446229\t473879\t因為你看你們改變了一個數據所以我明顯調列出來了嘛你看九月跟八月就差距很多嘛你看你到了八月的時候你還是只有14億而已喔可能你到了八九月的時候竟然就到86億這代表什麼因為那時候警政署還有所有相關單位都告訴我們之前因為人力不足嘛秦松有問題嘛所以我們只能讓比較容易破能把它登錄上去九月之後就幾乎人家只要一報你就登上去嘛對不對這代表什麼\n475179\t494495\t代表九月之后处理是对的代表八月之前拍摄院长部长们表示我们有很多的黑数吗对不对就表示我们国人过去在过去110年到去年到今年八月去年八月之前我们有很多的黑数那个金额就不止止是我们所看到的那样而已吗没错吧\n494775\t523034\t用黑數可能過於簡單的形容它是統計方式的不一樣因為你看五百多億一個行為人針對十件案件以前可能是一件現在變成十件五百零二億跟八十八億這個差距真的是有點大我只能提醒你過去所公布的數字真的比我們大家所感知的數字差距太多但是我還是給你肯定九月之後這樣做是對的好不好我們給予更多的人力以後就繼續這樣子\n524615\t549395\t這個變化讓大家知道是有在努力我們還會更努力但是很可怕五百多億一天就要一億多院長這很恐怖但是你看我們這邊的猖狂我們這邊的猖狂可是你看我還是調列出來你看我們過去從2016年打詐這個犯罪中心然後你又把它變成打詐國家對又變成打詐辦公室然後你現在變成行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心\n550376\t553139\t院長啊白天換來換過去就像那個騙數騙來騙過去喔還是讓我們達到506億啦院長這是很恐怖的數字啦我再次的說明我們的努力跟人民的期待還是有落差但是我還是強調那句話\n565253\t592791\t是越打越多 而是不打會更多但我們持續在 今年從春節之後各項的數字是在明顯緩緩的下降這個是每週的數字好 所以我們現在記住了 現在是五百零多億我希望明年 在在那不要明年啊 像會期如果你還在的話我希望我得到的一個數字會比現在的數字來的在如實呈報之後這個數字就會往下降我們共同來期許好不好請部長說明一下 簡單說明\n593892\t608833\t謝謝委員的關心我想也因為是立法院有通過打詐司法以後內政部跟其他四五個部會都可以成立這樣子打詐的一條龍這樣子對於防止打詐或者是說對打詐的真實性會呈現給國人面前當然我們還是需要努力\n609193\t622384\t也請委員多多指教數字上面呈現的連我自己都遭受過被詐騙的一個經驗對不對所以這個經驗已經完全是我們人民的一個日常給予你最大的一個期許但是我覺得這個數字就像如實的呈現但是確實在緩緩下降當中我們就來看看我們還是從一年當中來去看待這才是最真實的好不好\n629130\t655424\t千萬不要為了美化數字而做的很多其他的一些事情好感謝那接下來我們來關切一些能源的問題啊我還是要特別強調當我們全世界都走向核能的新紀元的時候呢恭喜2025終於可能要變成非核家園了但是我還是要請教院長啊當全世界越來越多國家想要增加我們對核能這個所謂新技術的研發的時候呢我們今年可以說是個非核\n656485\t677172\t那我們國民黨身為最大黨我說實在的我們主張把非碳家園來取代非核家園所以我們提出一些的修法我不曉得院長跟部長對於非碳家園這樣子的一個走向你們的看法是如何非碳家園難道是連火力連天然氣都不能嗎因為它都是有碳的\n677611\t699786\t我就我只能告訴他說非泰來說的話是未來的全世界的一個趨勢所以我們會對於今年的這個核子反應器的設施管制辦法我們會提出的修法行政院會有相對的版本出來嗎對這件事情你說核管法核管法目前的規定我們是照核管法的規定我們會提出修法行政院的態度會是什麼大院的任何的法律院預算我說過只要符合憲法\n706756\t730996\t為什麼我要特別提出這個問題只要是經過充分的討論民主的程序你經過非常多社會的對話你也告訴我們政府可以全面討論有關於核能技術而且你承諾在我們這個核電廠除役之後所有相關人員也不會離開這是院長講過的不要求台電要做什麼因為他們還有很多核後端的工作要做是沒有錯也有很多核的技術\n731937\t753103\t可以在面臨核能的技術這是世界趨勢但是院長你知道嗎台電正在規劃要撤裁核能發電處院長你知道這件事嗎他們要撤裁喔台電內部有這麼規劃不知道但是整個政策是一致的核能新技術的接觸討論是開放的我們對核二端的處理還要持續進行\n753903\t772774\t这些人员都是最有经验的所以你知道你知道他要撤财核能发电处你知道目前来说他们里面的人都是核工的人才他们就在质疑对自己的前途是非常的忧虑他们认为要发展新的核能这部分谁来当你把它撤财之后这些人难道未来只能管理核废料吗还有一件事情\n773174\t791412\t你也可以反映在我們未來在很多國公費的流考當中我們沒有合共這一項我們合共過去所培養的人才現在全部被美國所有因為世界各國都需要核能的技術我們過去所培養的人才全部送過去我們反而在未來培養人才當中沒有這一項技術所以院長你真的不要告訴我我們對於核能\n792293\t804547\t以民進黨當家還在對這一方面還是有所謂的一個會跟對話的空間像目前看不到我們是有這樣的空間也有這樣的準備請部長來答覆這個問題報告委員這個核能發電處您說要規劃財政\n807572\t823659\t我是台電的主管但是我沒有收到這樣的訊息那你回去問一下好了可能內部的訊息我們比你更清楚院長的要求是這一些同仁雖然現在已經降載了但是人員都要保留\n823979\t837831\t沒問題部長這是台電內部裡面你如果有的話請你明天你馬上打電話去問就知道好不好馬上給本席最後的一個結果我覺得這個就是一翻兩瞪眼有沒有再說馬上就可以看得出來但是我還是要討論啊因為\n839472\t868473\t台电的目前来说的一个亏损的状况以至于我觉得上次的部长台说你愿意用很多的方法来求得我们能够给予台电两千亿的这样一个播组这是我们彼此之间的对话但是部长你知道院长你知道吗台电如果是在不断的用这个拨补的方法还是没有办法解决台电的亏损因为核心的问题是在什么因为我们当然知道再生能源非常的重要但是呢以目前我们台湾的发展来说购电成本大幅的增加\n868973\t891272\t所以你卖的电越多用的电越多我们台电的亏损就越多嘛这是一个数据嘛过去我们可以告诉大家2022到2024的时候我们这个所谓的燃料支出因为恶务战争的已经过去的整个的成本已经下降了所以你完全很出来了我们的支出已经减少了1130亿啊但是我们购电的成本却来到了3095亿\n893154\t911167\t你可以看得出来我们如果跟2022比起来的话我们是多增加645亿如果你再回到116年的106年的话2016年的话那是增加的1935亿如果我们的再生能源是这种方法的话其实你再多补多少是没有办法的我们再来看\n911787\t928879\t你這個東西每年都要再去這樣去漲所以說你如果是這個方式繼續下去的話院長我們4月是不是要調漲電費而且可能到9%以上的這個電費是不是每當我們持續這個問題的時候你們就告訴我喔這個就是國民黨黨預算所以非得如何真的不是這樣事實擺在這個地方嘛你看\n931181\t951258\t台電自己自發的電力火力發電2.87啊你外購就要3.46啊你風電6.59啊就是比別還要多啊這是個事實擺在這個地方就誠如我剛所說吧你右電越多你買電越多你的虧損就越多嘛那這裡面到底有沒有有些問題當然有你看以風電來說是最貴的風電出了什麼問題過去來說\n954821\t972986\t同意你们发展再生能源但是我们整个策略是有问题的你刚刚看风电开发我们刚开始是台电向我们的这个开发商来购电对不对那银行因为看到台电嘛就台电不会倒啊就会给融资这没有问题后来你发现大家看到没有这个阶段\n973726\t991802\t但是現在來說的話能源政策裡面現在風電要開發目前來說因為受不了了你就開始要找到別的機構我不曉得經濟部是誰想出綠電信保機制CPPA你要風電商自己去找買家而且一買就要買20年\n993644\t1018303\t没有一个厂商可以有一个公司可以说它可以到20年的所以呢很多人这个所谓的这个风电厂商想要撤掉这时候我们就告诉你公股银行全部来聚宝可以但是呢又加上国产化加上这通膨又很多人很多的我们这个人就想要撤资这时候又找了我们这些什么人找了中钢中华电讯\n1018883\t1041541\t高鐵中油又進來做這樣的一個平台我真的不知道就像當初的中鋼總部在我們高雄我真的不知道這個海基這個所謂星達海基的事情64億的事情會不會因為這是你沒有設置所謂受電平台台製電的平台又會造成很大的虧損如果虧損的話不是一句話就可以解決了64億這是過去錯誤的經驗台製電會不會也造成這樣的一個問題台製電的設置就是要符合現在的整個\n1050063\t1069872\t發電業跟受電業的這個生態也就是要解決這個企業不能每一次的購買20年的這樣一個限制把它扁平化之後能夠讓中小型的企業也能夠來買這是一個理想當然是你現在都把公股拿去做擔保了你現在把這一群國營事業全部跳下去了我根本覺得這不是交通\n1069912\t1085191\t所以一方面是解決這20年的問題一方面也是我們解決中小企業能夠未來你剛出興達海淀的六十之一你也告訴我要解決這個問題最後的結果就是他們虧損的六十之一這是一個擺在的一個事實所以為什麼為什麼現在你的售電平台的時候大家就覺得台電已經虧損沒有辦法所以找這些\n1087433\t1112241\t這些的供應單位一起來承擔這個受電平台服務的性質是最大的他不是要來盈利的他不是來從中得取利益的他是服務院長跟部長這些都是我們的理想我們也很希望往這方面來前進但是我已經點出了一個問題就是因為不斷的是這樣所以真正解決很多我們用電的問題其實你已經覺得要開放一個空間來做一個對話的空間你要不要看\n1112881\t1133832\t我们光是在这个能源的问题上面国民党内部就有很多不同的一个争议我们大家说为什么要帮民进党的这个错误的能源政策来买单就让他这样子可是身为最大在野党我们听到的非常多企业的声音包括你的童子贤董事长也特别提到的新晋的核能也是一个选项部长刚上任的时候也同意从企业界来\n1134252\t1150765\t所以我这么个人就好好的开放很多的这个专家是已经帮你看出来了如果你能够用心经的方法再让我们合能的部分其实台电的亏损可以达到最低最低甚至可以翻身这个东西已经有那么多人来提到我只是希望\n1151365\t1175474\t能夠終結台電虧損的方法不用部長再用自身的保障只要我們每年撥補你你辦部長你也很辛苦很辛苦你也是我們民眾人但是大家說每次說我今年要撥補兩千你要如何如何明年說我要撥補兩千幫台電做這麼背書你直接講能源政策應該做修正符合世界的趨勢這才是我們應該走的道路對不對報告委員我可以回答\n1176983\t1184272\t我們的撥補不是說來補我的虧損而是在補我們過去政府體驗民間一般的用電戶\n1188086\t1216810\t我們是補貼那個不是來補貼我經營上面的虧損部長這我們的認識有點落差我的撥補也不是只有補台電的部分我現在的撥補是告訴你如果你用這個方法剛剛的數據你告訴你用這個方法一直下去不管是對於我們電價的平穩或是對台電的一個虧損能源的政策如果照這樣走下去還是一句話用電越多賣電越多我們的虧損就越多這個是目前我們所看到的數字好不好\n1217250\t1240371\t三句話跟委員答覆第一個虧損因為戰爭的因素大家都知道了那已經過去了因為我們的成本已經下降了這幾年當中現在看這幾年當中台電快速的而且很多的電廠都在更新要投入更多的資產這個也是一個成本的負擔再來我們希望用企業的管理精神讓台電財務能夠自主所以\n1241152\t1270162\t部長也講過未來的兩年如果大院跟我們合作我們一起讓台電過去的虧損因為補貼政策的虧損能夠彌補我們來讓它能夠進入正常營運的狀態我們今天在這個地方我可以聽得到下次我在質詢兩位的時候我應該可以期待我們的詐騙數字會下降我們對於台電的撥補會下降然後我們的用電也會平穩可能四月可能在這個漲價的這樣子的一個危機上面我們可以解除我們也期望做到這個地方好不好我們就來看看\n1270922\t1295011\t我們所提出的本席只是提出可能發生的問題用數據來告訴你我也期望部長跟院長可以把這些狀況把它回去做一些的釐清好接下來還是需要大院的合作配合大院很想合作大院其實我們對於總預算各方面我們都很想合作如果不想合作的話為什麼我們要總統要喊起我們韓院長召集這麼多人來做這樣子的一個協商這個協商被你們的總召給拆台了\n1298652\t1308629\t就被他拆台啦然後你還提出復議我覺得這個部分這個要從盤古開天開始說起來院長我的時間有限啦好不好我的開始是成功的一半我需要另外一半\n1309714\t1329487\t問題是你一剛開始就不成功了一開始就被拆台了還有什麼好面牆下去的問題為了好的開始你旁邊就給你拆台了我們需要另外成功的另外一半我們還是繼續那你成功另外一半就不是柯總召了你拜託這位姓柯的可能好一點啊好的開始大家共同來談現在已經開始了院長已經開始了我覺得這個開始已經不是一個需要另外一半我們尋找可以跟你match的另外一半我們來看看急診室的問題\n1339281\t1355227\t谢谢那个郭部长你可以先下去休息了我们来看看急诊这已经是非常非常多了我现在最后其实要帮这个急诊室的这些所谓的护理人员来说话因为我们本席的办公室里面不管在高雄到台北都受到非常多非常多的一个陈情啊我现在只请问\n1356067\t1374473\t目前來說真的跟所有的不管是第一線的護理人員來看的話每年增加至少三十億這是你們所承諾的而且這是抓到點了終於從二月十八月十三到二十四開的三場會議之後都是被大家罵爆了終於提出三十億這個部分來說的話部長\n1376494\t1399568\t有沒有辦法直接撥到護理人員的帳戶當中不用被醫院東扣西扣就像以前我們在COVID的時候即使撥補了有很多真的進到這個護理人員的這個帳戶裡面其實已經所剩無幾有沒有辦法利用這個部分裡面直接撥補到他們的帳戶裡面有沒有辦法做到報告委員我想如果是健保這個部分如果他已經被內到\n1401280\t1416336\t我剛講的問題是非常簡單的因為像目前來說你每年增加30億嘛那其實我說實在的對於護理人員最重要的就是我們的友善醫療環境嘛我們的友善的醫療環境嘛\n1419620\t1441405\t薪水提升我說實在的不是唯一的方法但起碼你可以讓大家覺得他的付出的辛勞是有的你看看馬建業院長每天在蓋章護理師每天欠缺這也是國安問題非常嚴重而且部長你是醫生出身的你也知道急診如果燒到開刀房會影響到我們的品質你知道現在最大的狀況是什麼嗎現在最大的狀況是資深的\n1446326\t1461915\t我们现在出我们完全资深的被操到离职新来的被吓到离职那这完全是个恶性循环呢不是吗这目前所反映的一个状况已经反映非常久了所以你看我们现在目前所整理出来跟所有各团体所整理出来的\n1462535\t1481738\t你即使你們所開出的藥方基本上對於醫護沒有辦法你把降低然後要多增加所謂的護理人員就沒人要來扣沒人要去買啊大家怕也怕死所以這個部分你們看而且新人沒有即戰力而且我剛所提到的嘛出售比例變得很大而且你想比較一下幾年前我們的護理師的平均年資\n1483420\t1506119\t6.5已經跟歐美來說十幾年來說已經變低了現在更是 而且你所提出的夜班的獎勵其實我說實在也是反效果我們大家只是在問醫師總統為什麼其實你讓我們的醫療單位其實瀕臨一個非常危急崩潰的一個狀況我們來看一下嘛到底我們到底我們有沒有對護理人員真的有沒有做到承諾\n1506920\t1528545\t院长你应该知道嘛过去你看在2013年的11月的时候医师节的时候赖总统我们的赖医师特别承诺推三班护病笔入法每年至少200亿来提升医疗人员的待遇到底是信赖护理还是临时护理这是你们当初的承诺现在到哪里去了\n1529551\t1551572\t跟委員報告至少我們在今年已經編列了66.85億在公務預算裡面做事件工作第一個就是推動三班輪值護理人員的直接獎勵第二點是三班貨幣比達到達標醫院的獎勵達標醫院給醫院的獎勵第三個是你說的護理新手導師的制度來來來 院長院長這個是友善職場\n1555075\t1574148\t來來來 我跟你講 你看你們就念茲在茲就要講這個護理導師的這個部分來 我們看最後一頁裡面你講啊 這是你們念茲在茲認為12項護理人員的政策的準備計畫你們把它拿出來當神一樣 當聖經一樣其中我可以講出來護理新手臨床導師制度是3.6億沒錯吧 部長你覺得自己得證你看3.6億到底用在什麼地方我告訴你\n1579691\t1595764\t護理師特別是資深的護理師告訴你他本來的工作完全就用不完的還要帶一個新進的而且新進的很難帶最重要是你要申請這些經費你還要寫報告你要寫計劃書你們寫羊羊騷騷去問第一線的護理人員誰給你寫計劃書誰幫你帶新進人員你還告訴我你有3.6億你到底有沒有用對地方你們還拿出來當聖經說你們做了12項對護理人員做得這麼好\n1607918\t1628172\t这就像你去视察一样,你只看到表层东下出来,下到11条但是我只问两件事嘛,有没有办法薪资直接,30亿承诺的直接汇到我们护理人员的薪资里面,直接汇入第二,你告诉我的导师制,导师制就告诉你不是这样啦,3.6亿没人要申请啦\n1629933\t1630434\t我會背個報告一下\n1646138\t1662982\t變成夜班的獎勵,那當然是直接就到婦理人員的身上你夜班獎勵又是被拿出來批評的因為大家覺得夜班獎勵就是相對的剝奪感你還把他拿出來當聖經保釘啊,你知不知道民間奇苦你真的是醫生出來的喔?還是醫生做醫生,你都看不到好處在身口啊嗯\n1668883\t1680892\t護理員的辛苦我們當然了解而且剛你說這個平均的年資6.5真的是沒有錯7年來看對護理人員是一個離職率最高的一個時期因為他有種種家庭個人的因素\n1681383\t1699232\t所以我們如何讓新進的人員能夠快速補充現在行政院跟考試院我們也建立一個考校用的平台希望未來能夠更實質的增加考用的人選能夠增加所以未來在考試的過程當中一定要比現在更優化不是降低 而是普遍性\n1700977\t1725074\t這個常識的水準能夠讓考試的人來進行到考試裡面來進到這個這就是你們所提出的策略但是我還是必須要說你前三次的最大的會議當中你們真的沒有問到基層人員我們為了這個急診室報診我們問了多少的團體訪談了多少的醫護人員他們真的還是很辛苦的告訴你你們真的是劃錯重點你不斷的希望有很多新人進來\n1725814\t1740535\t第一个新人吓都被吓走而且呢目前来说就像当初我们推行的长照设备一样教育部开放了非常多有关于长照类似的系统那是没人要出来谈了因为我们整个的医疗环境一点都不友善\n1740996\t1758964\t所以你去优化也没用你是护病笔也没用因为像没有人你去哪里比啊你跟谁比啊你到底找谁来来念啊你即使不管有没有优化还是门槛就是没有人因为大家已经被这个医疗环境给吓死了好不好要么不是被抄死就是被吓死这是目前我们第一线的问题\n1760131\t1783789\t但是我還是跟委員報告兩年前我們的在職人員是8萬6千多人那現在是19萬3千多人還是有實質的進步只是他的流動率應該是蠻大你現在19萬是到什麼時候的數據今年1月的時候今年1月好那我們下次在質詢的時候我們再看看19萬19萬四五月畢業之後應該有一撥還會再增加起來院長\n1784770\t1808862\t你真的完全如果是這樣子的話我們的醫護人員不會馬街的副院長天天在簽離職書啦這個東西的話真的也不要美化是數字如果這麼厲害的話真的說實在的醫護人員不能只靠他們對於病患對於醫學的一個熱忱我們這個不是做功德的這個實質的一個薪資待遇我還是強調我恭喜在大家一日之講一句話部長聽進去\n1810563\t1814364\t基層的醫護人員就告訴你,現在不能改變太多,錢直接匯到帳戶\n1833707\t1835389\t好 謝謝柯志恩委員的資訊謝謝總院長 相關部會所長的備詢接下來我們請張綺\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我們是不是請我們的卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選卓委員好院長好這個台積電宣布要投資一千億美元大概是3.3兆的台幣在美國建造的三座半導體廠還有包括研發中心請問院長你是什麼時候知道這個消息的\n當然我們要正是說就是他甚至宣布的時候我們是同步的了解但是之前政府跟產業的接觸是平凡的而且是有效的所以你之前就知道這個訊息了嗎什麼時候知道的你之前就知道了嗎那你對你來說的話對美國來說當然是件好消息那對院長來說對台灣是好消息嗎我覺得產業界\n去做全球的佈局對台灣都是力量的延伸只要在合乎國家的戰略佈局當中我覺得這個都是晶片絕對是我們國家的戰略物資那你今天有特別提到的這可是創造互惠共贏我們大家就要問到底台灣贏到什麼我們台灣有贏到美國的安全保證嗎還是恆頓就質疑嘛因為台積電像是護國神山才已經變成川普遺山\n甚至政府有没有办法变成他们最大的靠山这是我们所讨论的因为这一次来说的话虽然你可以告诉大家这是全球的布局他日本有场美国也有场但是呢据说他这次去的是16艾米相当于一点\n6奈米在我们高雄男子是2奈米我们认为已经非常先进的可是他如果过去到美国的时候可以用到1.6奈米更先进而且他的研发中心都出去了难免会让他觉得我们是整个根都被刨掉了\n这是很多国人的疑虑哦而且你可以听到川普他今天所特别提到的如果台湾有事的话美国会被有很大的一个影响而且美国已经是因为台积电要过去了他们在这个半导体的产业上面具有很大的影响力院长你怎么看待对台湾还是好吗当我们的细顿似乎已经被销入的时候我们台湾的筹码到底是多还是少\n臺灣有事全世界都會受到影響臺灣有事中國也不會沒事那我們現在努力的跟世界有門國家所努力的就是維持印太地區的我現在只夠問說台積電把所有的先進把所有的研發中心全部過去的最就是似乎是我們的戲盾已經被削弱了你對這件事情的看法我之前在這裡跟我原答覆的時候我說過我們希望達到四個原則第一個就是臺灣在這個製造領先的地位不會改變\n所以無論做任何的海外的投資 海外的設廠一定要維持台灣在市場領先地位好 那院長不好意思我知道你的四個部分你之前講過 那我要問一下經濟部長這件事情我們的投審會態度是如何因為你之前也告訴我們如果台積電要赴美的話你必須要有投審會的這個審查你敢跟川普說不嗎還是你覺得投審會根本沒有任何的部分就絕對是應該讓台積電過去了\n報告委員我想就投審會的部分我們當然依照現行的法律規範我們會來審查那你魏哲佳跟我們的川普都已經站在那個地方了你還要審查什麼我們這個對外投資就是要審查\n然後呢 結果呢 還要審查當然要審查好啦 我如果你審查了結果我們99.9%啦 應該是審查會通過嘛因為剛剛 院長已經講過了台積電是佈局全世界嘛而且台積電已經高於台灣非常多的這個部分嘛\n那我请问这是跟你过去提到的当川普提出了所谓的关税因为台积电要过去起码可以降低他在被克税的这样的一个危机稍微能够解决这个危机那部长也特别提到你21号当川普宣布要这个加重关税的时候你已经派次长江次长过去了嘛那个时候你告诉我们说你要跟川普的团队来对于关税问题做沟通然后到25号你被问到的时候呢你说\n不是沟通 是去情搜所以到底是去幹嘛\n我們當然是去情搜啊那你之前有沒有跟川普的團隊溝通到你有沒有跟川普的團隊溝通到台積電嗎我們不是去談判的團隊啊那誰去談判團隊我們這個行政院有談判辦公室應該就是嘛 經濟部就是你就是談判的團隊我只說你情搜到台積電要過去嗎因為你當初是去溝通你後來變成情搜所以我只問你情搜到什麼你這就像中華隊情搜可以贏球那你情搜到什麼美國的環境是怎麼樣\n所以你獲得了台積電這一項的一個情搜的資料了嗎有沒有這一塊有沒有在你的情搜範圍當中我們只是去華府我們並沒有到那個亞利桑那去你們沒有所以你們曾經到什麼地方我們到華府啊\n那有最很高的成績嗎可以了解整個產業的需求然後有對台灣未來跟美國這些所謂不管經濟安全的這項的物資有做出什麼樣的一個很好的一個情緒的自爆給帶回來可以給我們作為很大的參考嗎\n我們去不是為台積電當然不是部長我只是要告訴你當你2月11號你告訴我們要去溝通然後你後來告訴我們要去勤搜我只是院長我真的認為如果只是勤搜的話請低調的去請低調的回來\n要讓大家覺得好大的一個證照然後之後結果告訴我不是溝通然後只是輕鬆我覺得這是在用詞上面我們必須要去做個很精準的好接下來我還是要請兩位我還是要請院長我要問一下打詐的問題等一下我還有能源問題要請教部長但部長你可以先回去休息一下我們先來問一下打詐\n院长我还是要让你看一下一个一个数据啊打仗目前来说全民都在受苦但是呢你看到没有这是我们根据我们公开的资料里面提到的110年的时候呢我们才损的金额是56亿院长113年是502亿\n你可以看出这个巨幅的差距吗而且你看看我们那时候在110年只有24000件到了113年竟然有高达12万多件你看这个诈骗的金额可以说是110年的9倍那你如果要看起来的话我可以跟院长讲\n這個時候平均一天是336件詐騙我們一天是損失1億3769萬那院長當你看到數字差距這麼大的時候你不會產生懷疑嗎好 謝謝委員\n我也承認打炸這件事情國人的關心政府的努力還遠不及國人對政府的要求這個我們清楚所以我們每天每天都在精進那為什麼數字上會有這麼大的一個變化我們從去年九月開始我們是改變了整個統計的數字這一點要讓國人知道很好 院長我給你這點肯定我們再來看一下的確是這個樣子\n因為你看你們改變了一個數據所以我明顯調列出來了嘛你看九月跟八月就差距很多嘛你看你到了八月的時候你還是只有14億而已喔可能你到了八九月的時候竟然就到86億這代表什麼因為那時候警政署還有所有相關單位都告訴我們之前因為人力不足嘛秦松有問題嘛所以我們只能讓比較容易破能把它登錄上去九月之後就幾乎人家只要一報你就登上去嘛對不對這代表什麼\n代表九月之后处理是对的代表八月之前拍摄院长部长们表示我们有很多的黑数吗对不对就表示我们国人过去在过去110年到去年到今年八月去年八月之前我们有很多的黑数那个金额就不止止是我们所看到的那样而已吗没错吧\n用黑數可能過於簡單的形容它是統計方式的不一樣因為你看五百多億一個行為人針對十件案件以前可能是一件現在變成十件五百零二億跟八十八億這個差距真的是有點大我只能提醒你過去所公布的數字真的比我們大家所感知的數字差距太多但是我還是給你肯定九月之後這樣做是對的好不好我們給予更多的人力以後就繼續這樣子\n這個變化讓大家知道是有在努力我們還會更努力但是很可怕五百多億一天就要一億多院長這很恐怖但是你看我們這邊的猖狂我們這邊的猖狂可是你看我還是調列出來你看我們過去從2016年打詐這個犯罪中心然後你又把它變成打詐國家對又變成打詐辦公室然後你現在變成行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心\n院長啊白天換來換過去就像那個騙數騙來騙過去喔還是讓我們達到506億啦院長這是很恐怖的數字啦我再次的說明我們的努力跟人民的期待還是有落差但是我還是強調那句話\n是越打越多 而是不打會更多但我們持續在 今年從春節之後各項的數字是在明顯緩緩的下降這個是每週的數字好 所以我們現在記住了 現在是五百零多億我希望明年 在在那不要明年啊 像會期如果你還在的話我希望我得到的一個數字會比現在的數字來的在如實呈報之後這個數字就會往下降我們共同來期許好不好請部長說明一下 簡單說明\n謝謝委員的關心我想也因為是立法院有通過打詐司法以後內政部跟其他四五個部會都可以成立這樣子打詐的一條龍這樣子對於防止打詐或者是說對打詐的真實性會呈現給國人面前當然我們還是需要努力\n也請委員多多指教數字上面呈現的連我自己都遭受過被詐騙的一個經驗對不對所以這個經驗已經完全是我們人民的一個日常給予你最大的一個期許但是我覺得這個數字就像如實的呈現但是確實在緩緩下降當中我們就來看看我們還是從一年當中來去看待這才是最真實的好不好\n千萬不要為了美化數字而做的很多其他的一些事情好感謝那接下來我們來關切一些能源的問題啊我還是要特別強調當我們全世界都走向核能的新紀元的時候呢恭喜2025終於可能要變成非核家園了但是我還是要請教院長啊當全世界越來越多國家想要增加我們對核能這個所謂新技術的研發的時候呢我們今年可以說是個非核\n那我們國民黨身為最大黨我說實在的我們主張把非碳家園來取代非核家園所以我們提出一些的修法我不曉得院長跟部長對於非碳家園這樣子的一個走向你們的看法是如何非碳家園難道是連火力連天然氣都不能嗎因為它都是有碳的\n我就我只能告訴他說非泰來說的話是未來的全世界的一個趨勢所以我們會對於今年的這個核子反應器的設施管制辦法我們會提出的修法行政院會有相對的版本出來嗎對這件事情你說核管法核管法目前的規定我們是照核管法的規定我們會提出修法行政院的態度會是什麼大院的任何的法律院預算我說過只要符合憲法\n為什麼我要特別提出這個問題只要是經過充分的討論民主的程序你經過非常多社會的對話你也告訴我們政府可以全面討論有關於核能技術而且你承諾在我們這個核電廠除役之後所有相關人員也不會離開這是院長講過的不要求台電要做什麼因為他們還有很多核後端的工作要做是沒有錯也有很多核的技術\n可以在面臨核能的技術這是世界趨勢但是院長你知道嗎台電正在規劃要撤裁核能發電處院長你知道這件事嗎他們要撤裁喔台電內部有這麼規劃不知道但是整個政策是一致的核能新技術的接觸討論是開放的我們對核二端的處理還要持續進行\n这些人员都是最有经验的所以你知道你知道他要撤财核能发电处你知道目前来说他们里面的人都是核工的人才他们就在质疑对自己的前途是非常的忧虑他们认为要发展新的核能这部分谁来当你把它撤财之后这些人难道未来只能管理核废料吗还有一件事情\n你也可以反映在我們未來在很多國公費的流考當中我們沒有合共這一項我們合共過去所培養的人才現在全部被美國所有因為世界各國都需要核能的技術我們過去所培養的人才全部送過去我們反而在未來培養人才當中沒有這一項技術所以院長你真的不要告訴我我們對於核能\n以民進黨當家還在對這一方面還是有所謂的一個會跟對話的空間像目前看不到我們是有這樣的空間也有這樣的準備請部長來答覆這個問題報告委員這個核能發電處您說要規劃財政\n我是台電的主管但是我沒有收到這樣的訊息那你回去問一下好了可能內部的訊息我們比你更清楚院長的要求是這一些同仁雖然現在已經降載了但是人員都要保留\n沒問題部長這是台電內部裡面你如果有的話請你明天你馬上打電話去問就知道好不好馬上給本席最後的一個結果我覺得這個就是一翻兩瞪眼有沒有再說馬上就可以看得出來但是我還是要討論啊因為\n台电的目前来说的一个亏损的状况以至于我觉得上次的部长台说你愿意用很多的方法来求得我们能够给予台电两千亿的这样一个播组这是我们彼此之间的对话但是部长你知道院长你知道吗台电如果是在不断的用这个拨补的方法还是没有办法解决台电的亏损因为核心的问题是在什么因为我们当然知道再生能源非常的重要但是呢以目前我们台湾的发展来说购电成本大幅的增加\n所以你卖的电越多用的电越多我们台电的亏损就越多嘛这是一个数据嘛过去我们可以告诉大家2022到2024的时候我们这个所谓的燃料支出因为恶务战争的已经过去的整个的成本已经下降了所以你完全很出来了我们的支出已经减少了1130亿啊但是我们购电的成本却来到了3095亿\n你可以看得出来我们如果跟2022比起来的话我们是多增加645亿如果你再回到116年的106年的话2016年的话那是增加的1935亿如果我们的再生能源是这种方法的话其实你再多补多少是没有办法的我们再来看\n你這個東西每年都要再去這樣去漲所以說你如果是這個方式繼續下去的話院長我們4月是不是要調漲電費而且可能到9%以上的這個電費是不是每當我們持續這個問題的時候你們就告訴我喔這個就是國民黨黨預算所以非得如何真的不是這樣事實擺在這個地方嘛你看\n台電自己自發的電力火力發電2.87啊你外購就要3.46啊你風電6.59啊就是比別還要多啊這是個事實擺在這個地方就誠如我剛所說吧你右電越多你買電越多你的虧損就越多嘛那這裡面到底有沒有有些問題當然有你看以風電來說是最貴的風電出了什麼問題過去來說\n同意你们发展再生能源但是我们整个策略是有问题的你刚刚看风电开发我们刚开始是台电向我们的这个开发商来购电对不对那银行因为看到台电嘛就台电不会倒啊就会给融资这没有问题后来你发现大家看到没有这个阶段\n但是現在來說的話能源政策裡面現在風電要開發目前來說因為受不了了你就開始要找到別的機構我不曉得經濟部是誰想出綠電信保機制CPPA你要風電商自己去找買家而且一買就要買20年\n没有一个厂商可以有一个公司可以说它可以到20年的所以呢很多人这个所谓的这个风电厂商想要撤掉这时候我们就告诉你公股银行全部来聚宝可以但是呢又加上国产化加上这通膨又很多人很多的我们这个人就想要撤资这时候又找了我们这些什么人找了中钢中华电讯\n高鐵中油又進來做這樣的一個平台我真的不知道就像當初的中鋼總部在我們高雄我真的不知道這個海基這個所謂星達海基的事情64億的事情會不會因為這是你沒有設置所謂受電平台台製電的平台又會造成很大的虧損如果虧損的話不是一句話就可以解決了64億這是過去錯誤的經驗台製電會不會也造成這樣的一個問題台製電的設置就是要符合現在的整個\n發電業跟受電業的這個生態也就是要解決這個企業不能每一次的購買20年的這樣一個限制把它扁平化之後能夠讓中小型的企業也能夠來買這是一個理想當然是你現在都把公股拿去做擔保了你現在把這一群國營事業全部跳下去了我根本覺得這不是交通\n所以一方面是解決這20年的問題一方面也是我們解決中小企業能夠未來你剛出興達海淀的六十之一你也告訴我要解決這個問題最後的結果就是他們虧損的六十之一這是一個擺在的一個事實所以為什麼為什麼現在你的售電平台的時候大家就覺得台電已經虧損沒有辦法所以找這些\n這些的供應單位一起來承擔這個受電平台服務的性質是最大的他不是要來盈利的他不是來從中得取利益的他是服務院長跟部長這些都是我們的理想我們也很希望往這方面來前進但是我已經點出了一個問題就是因為不斷的是這樣所以真正解決很多我們用電的問題其實你已經覺得要開放一個空間來做一個對話的空間你要不要看\n我们光是在这个能源的问题上面国民党内部就有很多不同的一个争议我们大家说为什么要帮民进党的这个错误的能源政策来买单就让他这样子可是身为最大在野党我们听到的非常多企业的声音包括你的童子贤董事长也特别提到的新晋的核能也是一个选项部长刚上任的时候也同意从企业界来\n所以我这么个人就好好的开放很多的这个专家是已经帮你看出来了如果你能够用心经的方法再让我们合能的部分其实台电的亏损可以达到最低最低甚至可以翻身这个东西已经有那么多人来提到我只是希望\n能夠終結台電虧損的方法不用部長再用自身的保障只要我們每年撥補你你辦部長你也很辛苦很辛苦你也是我們民眾人但是大家說每次說我今年要撥補兩千你要如何如何明年說我要撥補兩千幫台電做這麼背書你直接講能源政策應該做修正符合世界的趨勢這才是我們應該走的道路對不對報告委員我可以回答\n我們的撥補不是說來補我的虧損而是在補我們過去政府體驗民間一般的用電戶\n我們是補貼那個不是來補貼我經營上面的虧損部長這我們的認識有點落差我的撥補也不是只有補台電的部分我現在的撥補是告訴你如果你用這個方法剛剛的數據你告訴你用這個方法一直下去不管是對於我們電價的平穩或是對台電的一個虧損能源的政策如果照這樣走下去還是一句話用電越多賣電越多我們的虧損就越多這個是目前我們所看到的數字好不好\n三句話跟委員答覆第一個虧損因為戰爭的因素大家都知道了那已經過去了因為我們的成本已經下降了這幾年當中現在看這幾年當中台電快速的而且很多的電廠都在更新要投入更多的資產這個也是一個成本的負擔再來我們希望用企業的管理精神讓台電財務能夠自主所以\n部長也講過未來的兩年如果大院跟我們合作我們一起讓台電過去的虧損因為補貼政策的虧損能夠彌補我們來讓它能夠進入正常營運的狀態我們今天在這個地方我可以聽得到下次我在質詢兩位的時候我應該可以期待我們的詐騙數字會下降我們對於台電的撥補會下降然後我們的用電也會平穩可能四月可能在這個漲價的這樣子的一個危機上面我們可以解除我們也期望做到這個地方好不好我們就來看看\n我們所提出的本席只是提出可能發生的問題用數據來告訴你我也期望部長跟院長可以把這些狀況把它回去做一些的釐清好接下來還是需要大院的合作配合大院很想合作大院其實我們對於總預算各方面我們都很想合作如果不想合作的話為什麼我們要總統要喊起我們韓院長召集這麼多人來做這樣子的一個協商這個協商被你們的總召給拆台了\n就被他拆台啦然後你還提出復議我覺得這個部分這個要從盤古開天開始說起來院長我的時間有限啦好不好我的開始是成功的一半我需要另外一半\n問題是你一剛開始就不成功了一開始就被拆台了還有什麼好面牆下去的問題為了好的開始你旁邊就給你拆台了我們需要另外成功的另外一半我們還是繼續那你成功另外一半就不是柯總召了你拜託這位姓柯的可能好一點啊好的開始大家共同來談現在已經開始了院長已經開始了我覺得這個開始已經不是一個需要另外一半我們尋找可以跟你match的另外一半我們來看看急診室的問題\n谢谢那个郭部长你可以先下去休息了我们来看看急诊这已经是非常非常多了我现在最后其实要帮这个急诊室的这些所谓的护理人员来说话因为我们本席的办公室里面不管在高雄到台北都受到非常多非常多的一个陈情啊我现在只请问\n目前來說真的跟所有的不管是第一線的護理人員來看的話每年增加至少三十億這是你們所承諾的而且這是抓到點了終於從二月十八月十三到二十四開的三場會議之後都是被大家罵爆了終於提出三十億這個部分來說的話部長\n有沒有辦法直接撥到護理人員的帳戶當中不用被醫院東扣西扣就像以前我們在COVID的時候即使撥補了有很多真的進到這個護理人員的這個帳戶裡面其實已經所剩無幾有沒有辦法利用這個部分裡面直接撥補到他們的帳戶裡面有沒有辦法做到報告委員我想如果是健保這個部分如果他已經被內到\n我剛講的問題是非常簡單的因為像目前來說你每年增加30億嘛那其實我說實在的對於護理人員最重要的就是我們的友善醫療環境嘛我們的友善的醫療環境嘛\n薪水提升我說實在的不是唯一的方法但起碼你可以讓大家覺得他的付出的辛勞是有的你看看馬建業院長每天在蓋章護理師每天欠缺這也是國安問題非常嚴重而且部長你是醫生出身的你也知道急診如果燒到開刀房會影響到我們的品質你知道現在最大的狀況是什麼嗎現在最大的狀況是資深的\n我们现在出我们完全资深的被操到离职新来的被吓到离职那这完全是个恶性循环呢不是吗这目前所反映的一个状况已经反映非常久了所以你看我们现在目前所整理出来跟所有各团体所整理出来的\n你即使你們所開出的藥方基本上對於醫護沒有辦法你把降低然後要多增加所謂的護理人員就沒人要來扣沒人要去買啊大家怕也怕死所以這個部分你們看而且新人沒有即戰力而且我剛所提到的嘛出售比例變得很大而且你想比較一下幾年前我們的護理師的平均年資\n6.5已經跟歐美來說十幾年來說已經變低了現在更是 而且你所提出的夜班的獎勵其實我說實在也是反效果我們大家只是在問醫師總統為什麼其實你讓我們的醫療單位其實瀕臨一個非常危急崩潰的一個狀況我們來看一下嘛到底我們到底我們有沒有對護理人員真的有沒有做到承諾\n院长你应该知道嘛过去你看在2013年的11月的时候医师节的时候赖总统我们的赖医师特别承诺推三班护病笔入法每年至少200亿来提升医疗人员的待遇到底是信赖护理还是临时护理这是你们当初的承诺现在到哪里去了\n跟委員報告至少我們在今年已經編列了66.85億在公務預算裡面做事件工作第一個就是推動三班輪值護理人員的直接獎勵第二點是三班貨幣比達到達標醫院的獎勵達標醫院給醫院的獎勵第三個是你說的護理新手導師的制度來來來 院長院長這個是友善職場\n來來來 我跟你講 你看你們就念茲在茲就要講這個護理導師的這個部分來 我們看最後一頁裡面你講啊 這是你們念茲在茲認為12項護理人員的政策的準備計畫你們把它拿出來當神一樣 當聖經一樣其中我可以講出來護理新手臨床導師制度是3.6億沒錯吧 部長你覺得自己得證你看3.6億到底用在什麼地方我告訴你\n護理師特別是資深的護理師告訴你他本來的工作完全就用不完的還要帶一個新進的而且新進的很難帶最重要是你要申請這些經費你還要寫報告你要寫計劃書你們寫羊羊騷騷去問第一線的護理人員誰給你寫計劃書誰幫你帶新進人員你還告訴我你有3.6億你到底有沒有用對地方你們還拿出來當聖經說你們做了12項對護理人員做得這麼好\n这就像你去视察一样,你只看到表层东下出来,下到11条但是我只问两件事嘛,有没有办法薪资直接,30亿承诺的直接汇到我们护理人员的薪资里面,直接汇入第二,你告诉我的导师制,导师制就告诉你不是这样啦,3.6亿没人要申请啦\n我會背個報告一下\n變成夜班的獎勵,那當然是直接就到婦理人員的身上你夜班獎勵又是被拿出來批評的因為大家覺得夜班獎勵就是相對的剝奪感你還把他拿出來當聖經保釘啊,你知不知道民間奇苦你真的是醫生出來的喔?還是醫生做醫生,你都看不到好處在身口啊嗯\n護理員的辛苦我們當然了解而且剛你說這個平均的年資6.5真的是沒有錯7年來看對護理人員是一個離職率最高的一個時期因為他有種種家庭個人的因素\n所以我們如何讓新進的人員能夠快速補充現在行政院跟考試院我們也建立一個考校用的平台希望未來能夠更實質的增加考用的人選能夠增加所以未來在考試的過程當中一定要比現在更優化不是降低 而是普遍性\n這個常識的水準能夠讓考試的人來進行到考試裡面來進到這個這就是你們所提出的策略但是我還是必須要說你前三次的最大的會議當中你們真的沒有問到基層人員我們為了這個急診室報診我們問了多少的團體訪談了多少的醫護人員他們真的還是很辛苦的告訴你你們真的是劃錯重點你不斷的希望有很多新人進來\n第一个新人吓都被吓走而且呢目前来说就像当初我们推行的长照设备一样教育部开放了非常多有关于长照类似的系统那是没人要出来谈了因为我们整个的医疗环境一点都不友善\n所以你去优化也没用你是护病笔也没用因为像没有人你去哪里比啊你跟谁比啊你到底找谁来来念啊你即使不管有没有优化还是门槛就是没有人因为大家已经被这个医疗环境给吓死了好不好要么不是被抄死就是被吓死这是目前我们第一线的问题\n但是我還是跟委員報告兩年前我們的在職人員是8萬6千多人那現在是19萬3千多人還是有實質的進步只是他的流動率應該是蠻大你現在19萬是到什麼時候的數據今年1月的時候今年1月好那我們下次在質詢的時候我們再看看19萬19萬四五月畢業之後應該有一撥還會再增加起來院長\n你真的完全如果是這樣子的話我們的醫護人員不會馬街的副院長天天在簽離職書啦這個東西的話真的也不要美化是數字如果這麼厲害的話真的說實在的醫護人員不能只靠他們對於病患對於醫學的一個熱忱我們這個不是做功德的這個實質的一個薪資待遇我還是強調我恭喜在大家一日之講一句話部長聽進去\n基層的醫護人員就告訴你,現在不能改變太多,錢直接匯到帳戶\n好 謝謝柯志恩委員的資訊謝謝總院長 相關部會所長的備詢接下來我們請張綺\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.004 --> 00:07.206\n謝謝主席我們是不是請我們的卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選卓委員好院長好這個台積電宣布要投資一千億美元大概是3.3兆的台幣在美國建造的三座半導體廠還有包括研發中心請問院長你是什麼時候知道這個消息的\n\n00:33.647 --> 00:57.277\n當然我們要正是說就是他甚至宣布的時候我們是同步的了解但是之前政府跟產業的接觸是平凡的而且是有效的所以你之前就知道這個訊息了嗎什麼時候知道的你之前就知道了嗎那你對你來說的話對美國來說當然是件好消息那對院長來說對台灣是好消息嗎我覺得產業界\n\n00:58.069 --> 01:21.355\n去做全球的佈局對台灣都是力量的延伸只要在合乎國家的戰略佈局當中我覺得這個都是晶片絕對是我們國家的戰略物資那你今天有特別提到的這可是創造互惠共贏我們大家就要問到底台灣贏到什麼我們台灣有贏到美國的安全保證嗎還是恆頓就質疑嘛因為台積電像是護國神山才已經變成川普遺山\n\n01:27.037 --> 01:44.458\n甚至政府有没有办法变成他们最大的靠山这是我们所讨论的因为这一次来说的话虽然你可以告诉大家这是全球的布局他日本有场美国也有场但是呢据说他这次去的是16艾米相当于一点\n\n01:45.138 --> 02:00.280\n6奈米在我们高雄男子是2奈米我们认为已经非常先进的可是他如果过去到美国的时候可以用到1.6奈米更先进而且他的研发中心都出去了难免会让他觉得我们是整个根都被刨掉了\n\n02:01.201 --> 02:26.053\n这是很多国人的疑虑哦而且你可以听到川普他今天所特别提到的如果台湾有事的话美国会被有很大的一个影响而且美国已经是因为台积电要过去了他们在这个半导体的产业上面具有很大的影响力院长你怎么看待对台湾还是好吗当我们的细顿似乎已经被销入的时候我们台湾的筹码到底是多还是少\n\n02:27.231 --> 02:56.003\n臺灣有事全世界都會受到影響臺灣有事中國也不會沒事那我們現在努力的跟世界有門國家所努力的就是維持印太地區的我現在只夠問說台積電把所有的先進把所有的研發中心全部過去的最就是似乎是我們的戲盾已經被削弱了你對這件事情的看法我之前在這裡跟我原答覆的時候我說過我們希望達到四個原則第一個就是臺灣在這個製造領先的地位不會改變\n\n02:56.923 --> 03:22.417\n所以無論做任何的海外的投資海外的設廠一定要維持台灣在市場領先地位好那院長不好意思我知道你的四個部分你之前講過那我要問一下經濟部長這件事情我們的投審會態度是如何因為你之前也告訴我們如果台積電要赴美的話你必須要有投審會的這個審查你敢跟川普說不嗎還是你覺得投審會根本沒有任何的部分就絕對是應該讓台積電過去了\n\n03:26.856 --> 03:43.925\n報告委員我想就投審會的部分我們當然依照現行的法律規範我們會來審查那你魏哲佳跟我們的川普都已經站在那個地方了你還要審查什麼我們這個對外投資就是要審查\n\n03:45.322 --> 03:50.650\n然後呢結果呢還要審查當然要審查好啦我如果你審查了結果我們99.9%啦應該是審查會通過嘛因為剛剛院長已經講過了台積電是佈局全世界嘛而且台積電已經高於台灣非常多的這個部分嘛\n\n04:01.906 --> 04:28.464\n那我请问这是跟你过去提到的当川普提出了所谓的关税因为台积电要过去起码可以降低他在被克税的这样的一个危机稍微能够解决这个危机那部长也特别提到你21号当川普宣布要这个加重关税的时候你已经派次长江次长过去了嘛那个时候你告诉我们说你要跟川普的团队来对于关税问题做沟通然后到25号你被问到的时候呢你说\n\n04:29.225 --> 04:32.140\n不是沟通是去情搜所以到底是去幹嘛\n\n04:33.305 --> 05:00.226\n我們當然是去情搜啊那你之前有沒有跟川普的團隊溝通到你有沒有跟川普的團隊溝通到台積電嗎我們不是去談判的團隊啊那誰去談判團隊我們這個行政院有談判辦公室應該就是嘛經濟部就是你就是談判的團隊我只說你情搜到台積電要過去嗎因為你當初是去溝通你後來變成情搜所以我只問你情搜到什麼你這就像中華隊情搜可以贏球那你情搜到什麼美國的環境是怎麼樣\n\n05:01.667 --> 05:16.716\n所以你獲得了台積電這一項的一個情搜的資料了嗎有沒有這一塊有沒有在你的情搜範圍當中我們只是去華府我們並沒有到那個亞利桑那去你們沒有所以你們曾經到什麼地方我們到華府啊\n\n05:17.216 --> 05:31.959\n那有最很高的成績嗎可以了解整個產業的需求然後有對台灣未來跟美國這些所謂不管經濟安全的這項的物資有做出什麼樣的一個很好的一個情緒的自爆給帶回來可以給我們作為很大的參考嗎\n\n05:33.171 --> 05:46.661\n我們去不是為台積電當然不是部長我只是要告訴你當你2月11號你告訴我們要去溝通然後你後來告訴我們要去勤搜我只是院長我真的認為如果只是勤搜的話請低調的去請低調的回來\n\n05:48.482 --> 06:06.228\n要讓大家覺得好大的一個證照然後之後結果告訴我不是溝通然後只是輕鬆我覺得這是在用詞上面我們必須要去做個很精準的好接下來我還是要請兩位我還是要請院長我要問一下打詐的問題等一下我還有能源問題要請教部長但部長你可以先回去休息一下我們先來問一下打詐\n\n06:07.475 --> 06:25.752\n院长我还是要让你看一下一个一个数据啊打仗目前来说全民都在受苦但是呢你看到没有这是我们根据我们公开的资料里面提到的110年的时候呢我们才损的金额是56亿院长113年是502亿\n\n06:28.234 --> 06:46.953\n你可以看出这个巨幅的差距吗而且你看看我们那时候在110年只有24000件到了113年竟然有高达12万多件你看这个诈骗的金额可以说是110年的9倍那你如果要看起来的话我可以跟院长讲\n\n06:47.875 --> 06:53.123\n這個時候平均一天是336件詐騙我們一天是損失1億3769萬那院長當你看到數字差距這麼大的時候你不會產生懷疑嗎好謝謝委員\n\n07:01.567 --> 07:19.963\n我也承認打炸這件事情國人的關心政府的努力還遠不及國人對政府的要求這個我們清楚所以我們每天每天都在精進那為什麼數字上會有這麼大的一個變化我們從去年九月開始我們是改變了整個統計的數字這一點要讓國人知道很好院長我給你這點肯定我們再來看一下的確是這個樣子\n\n07:26.229 --> 07:53.879\n因為你看你們改變了一個數據所以我明顯調列出來了嘛你看九月跟八月就差距很多嘛你看你到了八月的時候你還是只有14億而已喔可能你到了八九月的時候竟然就到86億這代表什麼因為那時候警政署還有所有相關單位都告訴我們之前因為人力不足嘛秦松有問題嘛所以我們只能讓比較容易破能把它登錄上去九月之後就幾乎人家只要一報你就登上去嘛對不對這代表什麼\n\n07:55.179 --> 08:14.495\n代表九月之后处理是对的代表八月之前拍摄院长部长们表示我们有很多的黑数吗对不对就表示我们国人过去在过去110年到去年到今年八月去年八月之前我们有很多的黑数那个金额就不止止是我们所看到的那样而已吗没错吧\n\n08:14.775 --> 08:43.034\n用黑數可能過於簡單的形容它是統計方式的不一樣因為你看五百多億一個行為人針對十件案件以前可能是一件現在變成十件五百零二億跟八十八億這個差距真的是有點大我只能提醒你過去所公布的數字真的比我們大家所感知的數字差距太多但是我還是給你肯定九月之後這樣做是對的好不好我們給予更多的人力以後就繼續這樣子\n\n08:44.615 --> 09:09.395\n這個變化讓大家知道是有在努力我們還會更努力但是很可怕五百多億一天就要一億多院長這很恐怖但是你看我們這邊的猖狂我們這邊的猖狂可是你看我還是調列出來你看我們過去從2016年打詐這個犯罪中心然後你又把它變成打詐國家對又變成打詐辦公室然後你現在變成行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心\n\n09:10.376 --> 09:13.139\n院長啊白天換來換過去就像那個騙數騙來騙過去喔還是讓我們達到506億啦院長這是很恐怖的數字啦我再次的說明我們的努力跟人民的期待還是有落差但是我還是強調那句話\n\n09:25.253 --> 09:52.791\n是越打越多而是不打會更多但我們持續在今年從春節之後各項的數字是在明顯緩緩的下降這個是每週的數字好所以我們現在記住了現在是五百零多億我希望明年在在那不要明年啊像會期如果你還在的話我希望我得到的一個數字會比現在的數字來的在如實呈報之後這個數字就會往下降我們共同來期許好不好請部長說明一下簡單說明\n\n09:53.892 --> 10:08.833\n謝謝委員的關心我想也因為是立法院有通過打詐司法以後內政部跟其他四五個部會都可以成立這樣子打詐的一條龍這樣子對於防止打詐或者是說對打詐的真實性會呈現給國人面前當然我們還是需要努力\n\n10:09.193 --> 10:22.384\n也請委員多多指教數字上面呈現的連我自己都遭受過被詐騙的一個經驗對不對所以這個經驗已經完全是我們人民的一個日常給予你最大的一個期許但是我覺得這個數字就像如實的呈現但是確實在緩緩下降當中我們就來看看我們還是從一年當中來去看待這才是最真實的好不好\n\n10:29.130 --> 10:55.424\n千萬不要為了美化數字而做的很多其他的一些事情好感謝那接下來我們來關切一些能源的問題啊我還是要特別強調當我們全世界都走向核能的新紀元的時候呢恭喜2025終於可能要變成非核家園了但是我還是要請教院長啊當全世界越來越多國家想要增加我們對核能這個所謂新技術的研發的時候呢我們今年可以說是個非核\n\n10:56.485 --> 11:17.172\n那我們國民黨身為最大黨我說實在的我們主張把非碳家園來取代非核家園所以我們提出一些的修法我不曉得院長跟部長對於非碳家園這樣子的一個走向你們的看法是如何非碳家園難道是連火力連天然氣都不能嗎因為它都是有碳的\n\n11:17.611 --> 11:39.786\n我就我只能告訴他說非泰來說的話是未來的全世界的一個趨勢所以我們會對於今年的這個核子反應器的設施管制辦法我們會提出的修法行政院會有相對的版本出來嗎對這件事情你說核管法核管法目前的規定我們是照核管法的規定我們會提出修法行政院的態度會是什麼大院的任何的法律院預算我說過只要符合憲法\n\n11:46.756 --> 12:10.996\n為什麼我要特別提出這個問題只要是經過充分的討論民主的程序你經過非常多社會的對話你也告訴我們政府可以全面討論有關於核能技術而且你承諾在我們這個核電廠除役之後所有相關人員也不會離開這是院長講過的不要求台電要做什麼因為他們還有很多核後端的工作要做是沒有錯也有很多核的技術\n\n12:11.937 --> 12:33.103\n可以在面臨核能的技術這是世界趨勢但是院長你知道嗎台電正在規劃要撤裁核能發電處院長你知道這件事嗎他們要撤裁喔台電內部有這麼規劃不知道但是整個政策是一致的核能新技術的接觸討論是開放的我們對核二端的處理還要持續進行\n\n12:33.903 --> 12:52.774\n这些人员都是最有经验的所以你知道你知道他要撤财核能发电处你知道目前来说他们里面的人都是核工的人才他们就在质疑对自己的前途是非常的忧虑他们认为要发展新的核能这部分谁来当你把它撤财之后这些人难道未来只能管理核废料吗还有一件事情\n\n12:53.174 --> 13:11.412\n你也可以反映在我們未來在很多國公費的流考當中我們沒有合共這一項我們合共過去所培養的人才現在全部被美國所有因為世界各國都需要核能的技術我們過去所培養的人才全部送過去我們反而在未來培養人才當中沒有這一項技術所以院長你真的不要告訴我我們對於核能\n\n13:12.293 --> 13:24.547\n以民進黨當家還在對這一方面還是有所謂的一個會跟對話的空間像目前看不到我們是有這樣的空間也有這樣的準備請部長來答覆這個問題報告委員這個核能發電處您說要規劃財政\n\n13:27.572 --> 13:43.659\n我是台電的主管但是我沒有收到這樣的訊息那你回去問一下好了可能內部的訊息我們比你更清楚院長的要求是這一些同仁雖然現在已經降載了但是人員都要保留\n\n13:43.979 --> 13:57.831\n沒問題部長這是台電內部裡面你如果有的話請你明天你馬上打電話去問就知道好不好馬上給本席最後的一個結果我覺得這個就是一翻兩瞪眼有沒有再說馬上就可以看得出來但是我還是要討論啊因為\n\n13:59.472 --> 14:28.473\n台电的目前来说的一个亏损的状况以至于我觉得上次的部长台说你愿意用很多的方法来求得我们能够给予台电两千亿的这样一个播组这是我们彼此之间的对话但是部长你知道院长你知道吗台电如果是在不断的用这个拨补的方法还是没有办法解决台电的亏损因为核心的问题是在什么因为我们当然知道再生能源非常的重要但是呢以目前我们台湾的发展来说购电成本大幅的增加\n\n14:28.973 --> 14:51.272\n所以你卖的电越多用的电越多我们台电的亏损就越多嘛这是一个数据嘛过去我们可以告诉大家2022到2024的时候我们这个所谓的燃料支出因为恶务战争的已经过去的整个的成本已经下降了所以你完全很出来了我们的支出已经减少了1130亿啊但是我们购电的成本却来到了3095亿\n\n14:53.154 --> 15:11.167\n你可以看得出来我们如果跟2022比起来的话我们是多增加645亿如果你再回到116年的106年的话2016年的话那是增加的1935亿如果我们的再生能源是这种方法的话其实你再多补多少是没有办法的我们再来看\n\n15:11.787 --> 15:28.879\n你這個東西每年都要再去這樣去漲所以說你如果是這個方式繼續下去的話院長我們4月是不是要調漲電費而且可能到9%以上的這個電費是不是每當我們持續這個問題的時候你們就告訴我喔這個就是國民黨黨預算所以非得如何真的不是這樣事實擺在這個地方嘛你看\n\n15:31.181 --> 15:51.258\n台電自己自發的電力火力發電2.87啊你外購就要3.46啊你風電6.59啊就是比別還要多啊這是個事實擺在這個地方就誠如我剛所說吧你右電越多你買電越多你的虧損就越多嘛那這裡面到底有沒有有些問題當然有你看以風電來說是最貴的風電出了什麼問題過去來說\n\n15:54.821 --> 16:12.986\n同意你们发展再生能源但是我们整个策略是有问题的你刚刚看风电开发我们刚开始是台电向我们的这个开发商来购电对不对那银行因为看到台电嘛就台电不会倒啊就会给融资这没有问题后来你发现大家看到没有这个阶段\n\n16:13.726 --> 16:31.802\n但是現在來說的話能源政策裡面現在風電要開發目前來說因為受不了了你就開始要找到別的機構我不曉得經濟部是誰想出綠電信保機制CPPA你要風電商自己去找買家而且一買就要買20年\n\n16:33.644 --> 16:58.303\n没有一个厂商可以有一个公司可以说它可以到20年的所以呢很多人这个所谓的这个风电厂商想要撤掉这时候我们就告诉你公股银行全部来聚宝可以但是呢又加上国产化加上这通膨又很多人很多的我们这个人就想要撤资这时候又找了我们这些什么人找了中钢中华电讯\n\n16:58.883 --> 17:21.541\n高鐵中油又進來做這樣的一個平台我真的不知道就像當初的中鋼總部在我們高雄我真的不知道這個海基這個所謂星達海基的事情64億的事情會不會因為這是你沒有設置所謂受電平台台製電的平台又會造成很大的虧損如果虧損的話不是一句話就可以解決了64億這是過去錯誤的經驗台製電會不會也造成這樣的一個問題台製電的設置就是要符合現在的整個\n\n17:30.063 --> 17:49.872\n發電業跟受電業的這個生態也就是要解決這個企業不能每一次的購買20年的這樣一個限制把它扁平化之後能夠讓中小型的企業也能夠來買這是一個理想當然是你現在都把公股拿去做擔保了你現在把這一群國營事業全部跳下去了我根本覺得這不是交通\n\n17:49.912 --> 18:05.191\n所以一方面是解決這20年的問題一方面也是我們解決中小企業能夠未來你剛出興達海淀的六十之一你也告訴我要解決這個問題最後的結果就是他們虧損的六十之一這是一個擺在的一個事實所以為什麼為什麼現在你的售電平台的時候大家就覺得台電已經虧損沒有辦法所以找這些\n\n18:07.433 --> 18:32.241\n這些的供應單位一起來承擔這個受電平台服務的性質是最大的他不是要來盈利的他不是來從中得取利益的他是服務院長跟部長這些都是我們的理想我們也很希望往這方面來前進但是我已經點出了一個問題就是因為不斷的是這樣所以真正解決很多我們用電的問題其實你已經覺得要開放一個空間來做一個對話的空間你要不要看\n\n18:32.881 --> 18:53.832\n我们光是在这个能源的问题上面国民党内部就有很多不同的一个争议我们大家说为什么要帮民进党的这个错误的能源政策来买单就让他这样子可是身为最大在野党我们听到的非常多企业的声音包括你的童子贤董事长也特别提到的新晋的核能也是一个选项部长刚上任的时候也同意从企业界来\n\n18:54.252 --> 19:10.765\n所以我这么个人就好好的开放很多的这个专家是已经帮你看出来了如果你能够用心经的方法再让我们合能的部分其实台电的亏损可以达到最低最低甚至可以翻身这个东西已经有那么多人来提到我只是希望\n\n19:11.365 --> 19:35.474\n能夠終結台電虧損的方法不用部長再用自身的保障只要我們每年撥補你你辦部長你也很辛苦很辛苦你也是我們民眾人但是大家說每次說我今年要撥補兩千你要如何如何明年說我要撥補兩千幫台電做這麼背書你直接講能源政策應該做修正符合世界的趨勢這才是我們應該走的道路對不對報告委員我可以回答\n\n19:36.983 --> 19:44.272\n我們的撥補不是說來補我的虧損而是在補我們過去政府體驗民間一般的用電戶\n\n19:48.086 --> 20:16.810\n我們是補貼那個不是來補貼我經營上面的虧損部長這我們的認識有點落差我的撥補也不是只有補台電的部分我現在的撥補是告訴你如果你用這個方法剛剛的數據你告訴你用這個方法一直下去不管是對於我們電價的平穩或是對台電的一個虧損能源的政策如果照這樣走下去還是一句話用電越多賣電越多我們的虧損就越多這個是目前我們所看到的數字好不好\n\n20:17.250 --> 20:40.371\n三句話跟委員答覆第一個虧損因為戰爭的因素大家都知道了那已經過去了因為我們的成本已經下降了這幾年當中現在看這幾年當中台電快速的而且很多的電廠都在更新要投入更多的資產這個也是一個成本的負擔再來我們希望用企業的管理精神讓台電財務能夠自主所以\n\n20:41.152 --> 21:10.162\n部長也講過未來的兩年如果大院跟我們合作我們一起讓台電過去的虧損因為補貼政策的虧損能夠彌補我們來讓它能夠進入正常營運的狀態我們今天在這個地方我可以聽得到下次我在質詢兩位的時候我應該可以期待我們的詐騙數字會下降我們對於台電的撥補會下降然後我們的用電也會平穩可能四月可能在這個漲價的這樣子的一個危機上面我們可以解除我們也期望做到這個地方好不好我們就來看看\n\n21:10.922 --> 21:35.011\n我們所提出的本席只是提出可能發生的問題用數據來告訴你我也期望部長跟院長可以把這些狀況把它回去做一些的釐清好接下來還是需要大院的合作配合大院很想合作大院其實我們對於總預算各方面我們都很想合作如果不想合作的話為什麼我們要總統要喊起我們韓院長召集這麼多人來做這樣子的一個協商這個協商被你們的總召給拆台了\n\n21:38.652 --> 21:48.629\n就被他拆台啦然後你還提出復議我覺得這個部分這個要從盤古開天開始說起來院長我的時間有限啦好不好我的開始是成功的一半我需要另外一半\n\n21:49.714 --> 22:09.487\n問題是你一剛開始就不成功了一開始就被拆台了還有什麼好面牆下去的問題為了好的開始你旁邊就給你拆台了我們需要另外成功的另外一半我們還是繼續那你成功另外一半就不是柯總召了你拜託這位姓柯的可能好一點啊好的開始大家共同來談現在已經開始了院長已經開始了我覺得這個開始已經不是一個需要另外一半我們尋找可以跟你match的另外一半我們來看看急診室的問題\n\n22:19.281 --> 22:35.227\n谢谢那个郭部长你可以先下去休息了我们来看看急诊这已经是非常非常多了我现在最后其实要帮这个急诊室的这些所谓的护理人员来说话因为我们本席的办公室里面不管在高雄到台北都受到非常多非常多的一个陈情啊我现在只请问\n\n22:36.067 --> 22:54.473\n目前來說真的跟所有的不管是第一線的護理人員來看的話每年增加至少三十億這是你們所承諾的而且這是抓到點了終於從二月十八月十三到二十四開的三場會議之後都是被大家罵爆了終於提出三十億這個部分來說的話部長\n\n22:56.494 --> 23:19.568\n有沒有辦法直接撥到護理人員的帳戶當中不用被醫院東扣西扣就像以前我們在COVID的時候即使撥補了有很多真的進到這個護理人員的這個帳戶裡面其實已經所剩無幾有沒有辦法利用這個部分裡面直接撥補到他們的帳戶裡面有沒有辦法做到報告委員我想如果是健保這個部分如果他已經被內到\n\n23:21.280 --> 23:36.336\n我剛講的問題是非常簡單的因為像目前來說你每年增加30億嘛那其實我說實在的對於護理人員最重要的就是我們的友善醫療環境嘛我們的友善的醫療環境嘛\n\n23:39.620 --> 24:01.405\n薪水提升我說實在的不是唯一的方法但起碼你可以讓大家覺得他的付出的辛勞是有的你看看馬建業院長每天在蓋章護理師每天欠缺這也是國安問題非常嚴重而且部長你是醫生出身的你也知道急診如果燒到開刀房會影響到我們的品質你知道現在最大的狀況是什麼嗎現在最大的狀況是資深的\n\n24:06.326 --> 24:21.915\n我们现在出我们完全资深的被操到离职新来的被吓到离职那这完全是个恶性循环呢不是吗这目前所反映的一个状况已经反映非常久了所以你看我们现在目前所整理出来跟所有各团体所整理出来的\n\n24:22.535 --> 24:41.738\n你即使你們所開出的藥方基本上對於醫護沒有辦法你把降低然後要多增加所謂的護理人員就沒人要來扣沒人要去買啊大家怕也怕死所以這個部分你們看而且新人沒有即戰力而且我剛所提到的嘛出售比例變得很大而且你想比較一下幾年前我們的護理師的平均年資\n\n24:43.420 --> 25:06.119\n6.5已經跟歐美來說十幾年來說已經變低了現在更是而且你所提出的夜班的獎勵其實我說實在也是反效果我們大家只是在問醫師總統為什麼其實你讓我們的醫療單位其實瀕臨一個非常危急崩潰的一個狀況我們來看一下嘛到底我們到底我們有沒有對護理人員真的有沒有做到承諾\n\n25:06.920 --> 25:28.545\n院长你应该知道嘛过去你看在2013年的11月的时候医师节的时候赖总统我们的赖医师特别承诺推三班护病笔入法每年至少200亿来提升医疗人员的待遇到底是信赖护理还是临时护理这是你们当初的承诺现在到哪里去了\n\n25:29.551 --> 25:51.572\n跟委員報告至少我們在今年已經編列了66.85億在公務預算裡面做事件工作第一個就是推動三班輪值護理人員的直接獎勵第二點是三班貨幣比達到達標醫院的獎勵達標醫院給醫院的獎勵第三個是你說的護理新手導師的制度來來來院長院長這個是友善職場\n\n25:55.075 --> 26:14.148\n來來來我跟你講你看你們就念茲在茲就要講這個護理導師的這個部分來我們看最後一頁裡面你講啊這是你們念茲在茲認為12項護理人員的政策的準備計畫你們把它拿出來當神一樣當聖經一樣其中我可以講出來護理新手臨床導師制度是3.6億沒錯吧部長你覺得自己得證你看3.6億到底用在什麼地方我告訴你\n\n26:19.691 --> 26:35.764\n護理師特別是資深的護理師告訴你他本來的工作完全就用不完的還要帶一個新進的而且新進的很難帶最重要是你要申請這些經費你還要寫報告你要寫計劃書你們寫羊羊騷騷去問第一線的護理人員誰給你寫計劃書誰幫你帶新進人員你還告訴我你有3.6億你到底有沒有用對地方你們還拿出來當聖經說你們做了12項對護理人員做得這麼好\n\n26:47.918 --> 27:08.172\n这就像你去视察一样,你只看到表层东下出来,下到11条但是我只问两件事嘛,有没有办法薪资直接,30亿承诺的直接汇到我们护理人员的薪资里面,直接汇入第二,你告诉我的导师制,导师制就告诉你不是这样啦,3.6亿没人要申请啦\n\n27:09.933 --> 27:10.434\n我會背個報告一下\n\n27:26.138 --> 27:42.982\n變成夜班的獎勵,那當然是直接就到婦理人員的身上你夜班獎勵又是被拿出來批評的因為大家覺得夜班獎勵就是相對的剝奪感你還把他拿出來當聖經保釘啊,你知不知道民間奇苦你真的是醫生出來的喔?還是醫生做醫生,你都看不到好處在身口啊嗯\n\n27:48.883 --> 28:00.892\n護理員的辛苦我們當然了解而且剛你說這個平均的年資6.5真的是沒有錯7年來看對護理人員是一個離職率最高的一個時期因為他有種種家庭個人的因素\n\n28:01.383 --> 28:19.232\n所以我們如何讓新進的人員能夠快速補充現在行政院跟考試院我們也建立一個考校用的平台希望未來能夠更實質的增加考用的人選能夠增加所以未來在考試的過程當中一定要比現在更優化不是降低而是普遍性\n\n28:20.977 --> 28:45.074\n這個常識的水準能夠讓考試的人來進行到考試裡面來進到這個這就是你們所提出的策略但是我還是必須要說你前三次的最大的會議當中你們真的沒有問到基層人員我們為了這個急診室報診我們問了多少的團體訪談了多少的醫護人員他們真的還是很辛苦的告訴你你們真的是劃錯重點你不斷的希望有很多新人進來\n\n28:45.814 --> 29:00.535\n第一个新人吓都被吓走而且呢目前来说就像当初我们推行的长照设备一样教育部开放了非常多有关于长照类似的系统那是没人要出来谈了因为我们整个的医疗环境一点都不友善\n\n29:00.996 --> 29:18.964\n所以你去优化也没用你是护病笔也没用因为像没有人你去哪里比啊你跟谁比啊你到底找谁来来念啊你即使不管有没有优化还是门槛就是没有人因为大家已经被这个医疗环境给吓死了好不好要么不是被抄死就是被吓死这是目前我们第一线的问题\n\n29:20.131 --> 29:43.789\n但是我還是跟委員報告兩年前我們的在職人員是8萬6千多人那現在是19萬3千多人還是有實質的進步只是他的流動率應該是蠻大你現在19萬是到什麼時候的數據今年1月的時候今年1月好那我們下次在質詢的時候我們再看看19萬19萬四五月畢業之後應該有一撥還會再增加起來院長\n\n29:44.770 --> 30:08.862\n你真的完全如果是這樣子的話我們的醫護人員不會馬街的副院長天天在簽離職書啦這個東西的話真的也不要美化是數字如果這麼厲害的話真的說實在的醫護人員不能只靠他們對於病患對於醫學的一個熱忱我們這個不是做功德的這個實質的一個薪資待遇我還是強調我恭喜在大家一日之講一句話部長聽進去\n\n30:10.563 --> 30:14.364\n基層的醫護人員就告訴你,現在不能改變太多,錢直接匯到帳戶\n\n30:33.707 --> 30:35.389\n好謝謝柯志恩委員的資訊謝謝總院長相關部會所長的備詢接下來我們請張綺\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.004,"end":7.206,"text":"謝謝主席 我們是不是請我們的卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選卓委員好院長好這個台積電宣布要投資一千億美元大概是3.3兆的台幣在美國建造的三座半導體廠還有包括研發中心請問院長你是什麼時候知道這個消息的"},{"start":33.647,"end":57.277,"text":"當然我們要正是說就是他甚至宣布的時候我們是同步的了解但是之前政府跟產業的接觸是平凡的而且是有效的所以你之前就知道這個訊息了嗎什麼時候知道的你之前就知道了嗎那你對你來說的話對美國來說當然是件好消息那對院長來說對台灣是好消息嗎我覺得產業界"},{"start":58.069,"end":81.355,"text":"去做全球的佈局對台灣都是力量的延伸只要在合乎國家的戰略佈局當中我覺得這個都是晶片絕對是我們國家的戰略物資那你今天有特別提到的這可是創造互惠共贏我們大家就要問到底台灣贏到什麼我們台灣有贏到美國的安全保證嗎還是恆頓就質疑嘛因為台積電像是護國神山才已經變成川普遺山"},{"start":87.037,"end":104.458,"text":"甚至政府有没有办法变成他们最大的靠山这是我们所讨论的因为这一次来说的话虽然你可以告诉大家这是全球的布局他日本有场美国也有场但是呢据说他这次去的是16艾米相当于一点"},{"start":105.138,"end":120.28,"text":"6奈米在我们高雄男子是2奈米我们认为已经非常先进的可是他如果过去到美国的时候可以用到1.6奈米更先进而且他的研发中心都出去了难免会让他觉得我们是整个根都被刨掉了"},{"start":121.201,"end":146.053,"text":"这是很多国人的疑虑哦而且你可以听到川普他今天所特别提到的如果台湾有事的话美国会被有很大的一个影响而且美国已经是因为台积电要过去了他们在这个半导体的产业上面具有很大的影响力院长你怎么看待对台湾还是好吗当我们的细顿似乎已经被销入的时候我们台湾的筹码到底是多还是少"},{"start":147.231,"end":176.003,"text":"臺灣有事全世界都會受到影響臺灣有事中國也不會沒事那我們現在努力的跟世界有門國家所努力的就是維持印太地區的我現在只夠問說台積電把所有的先進把所有的研發中心全部過去的最就是似乎是我們的戲盾已經被削弱了你對這件事情的看法我之前在這裡跟我原答覆的時候我說過我們希望達到四個原則第一個就是臺灣在這個製造領先的地位不會改變"},{"start":176.923,"end":202.417,"text":"所以無論做任何的海外的投資 海外的設廠一定要維持台灣在市場領先地位好 那院長不好意思我知道你的四個部分你之前講過 那我要問一下經濟部長這件事情我們的投審會態度是如何因為你之前也告訴我們如果台積電要赴美的話你必須要有投審會的這個審查你敢跟川普說不嗎還是你覺得投審會根本沒有任何的部分就絕對是應該讓台積電過去了"},{"start":206.856,"end":223.925,"text":"報告委員我想就投審會的部分我們當然依照現行的法律規範我們會來審查那你魏哲佳跟我們的川普都已經站在那個地方了你還要審查什麼我們這個對外投資就是要審查"},{"start":225.322,"end":230.65,"text":"然後呢 結果呢 還要審查當然要審查好啦 我如果你審查了結果我們99.9%啦 應該是審查會通過嘛因為剛剛 院長已經講過了台積電是佈局全世界嘛而且台積電已經高於台灣非常多的這個部分嘛"},{"start":241.906,"end":268.464,"text":"那我请问这是跟你过去提到的当川普提出了所谓的关税因为台积电要过去起码可以降低他在被克税的这样的一个危机稍微能够解决这个危机那部长也特别提到你21号当川普宣布要这个加重关税的时候你已经派次长江次长过去了嘛那个时候你告诉我们说你要跟川普的团队来对于关税问题做沟通然后到25号你被问到的时候呢你说"},{"start":269.225,"end":272.14,"text":"不是沟通 是去情搜所以到底是去幹嘛"},{"start":273.305,"end":300.226,"text":"我們當然是去情搜啊那你之前有沒有跟川普的團隊溝通到你有沒有跟川普的團隊溝通到台積電嗎我們不是去談判的團隊啊那誰去談判團隊我們這個行政院有談判辦公室應該就是嘛 經濟部就是你就是談判的團隊我只說你情搜到台積電要過去嗎因為你當初是去溝通你後來變成情搜所以我只問你情搜到什麼你這就像中華隊情搜可以贏球那你情搜到什麼美國的環境是怎麼樣"},{"start":301.667,"end":316.716,"text":"所以你獲得了台積電這一項的一個情搜的資料了嗎有沒有這一塊有沒有在你的情搜範圍當中我們只是去華府我們並沒有到那個亞利桑那去你們沒有所以你們曾經到什麼地方我們到華府啊"},{"start":317.216,"end":331.959,"text":"那有最很高的成績嗎可以了解整個產業的需求然後有對台灣未來跟美國這些所謂不管經濟安全的這項的物資有做出什麼樣的一個很好的一個情緒的自爆給帶回來可以給我們作為很大的參考嗎"},{"start":333.171,"end":346.661,"text":"我們去不是為台積電當然不是部長我只是要告訴你當你2月11號你告訴我們要去溝通然後你後來告訴我們要去勤搜我只是院長我真的認為如果只是勤搜的話請低調的去請低調的回來"},{"start":348.482,"end":366.228,"text":"要讓大家覺得好大的一個證照然後之後結果告訴我不是溝通然後只是輕鬆我覺得這是在用詞上面我們必須要去做個很精準的好接下來我還是要請兩位我還是要請院長我要問一下打詐的問題等一下我還有能源問題要請教部長但部長你可以先回去休息一下我們先來問一下打詐"},{"start":367.475,"end":385.752,"text":"院长我还是要让你看一下一个一个数据啊打仗目前来说全民都在受苦但是呢你看到没有这是我们根据我们公开的资料里面提到的110年的时候呢我们才损的金额是56亿院长113年是502亿"},{"start":388.234,"end":406.953,"text":"你可以看出这个巨幅的差距吗而且你看看我们那时候在110年只有24000件到了113年竟然有高达12万多件你看这个诈骗的金额可以说是110年的9倍那你如果要看起来的话我可以跟院长讲"},{"start":407.875,"end":413.123,"text":"這個時候平均一天是336件詐騙我們一天是損失1億3769萬那院長當你看到數字差距這麼大的時候你不會產生懷疑嗎好 謝謝委員"},{"start":421.567,"end":439.963,"text":"我也承認打炸這件事情國人的關心政府的努力還遠不及國人對政府的要求這個我們清楚所以我們每天每天都在精進那為什麼數字上會有這麼大的一個變化我們從去年九月開始我們是改變了整個統計的數字這一點要讓國人知道很好 院長我給你這點肯定我們再來看一下的確是這個樣子"},{"start":446.229,"end":473.879,"text":"因為你看你們改變了一個數據所以我明顯調列出來了嘛你看九月跟八月就差距很多嘛你看你到了八月的時候你還是只有14億而已喔可能你到了八九月的時候竟然就到86億這代表什麼因為那時候警政署還有所有相關單位都告訴我們之前因為人力不足嘛秦松有問題嘛所以我們只能讓比較容易破能把它登錄上去九月之後就幾乎人家只要一報你就登上去嘛對不對這代表什麼"},{"start":475.179,"end":494.495,"text":"代表九月之后处理是对的代表八月之前拍摄院长部长们表示我们有很多的黑数吗对不对就表示我们国人过去在过去110年到去年到今年八月去年八月之前我们有很多的黑数那个金额就不止止是我们所看到的那样而已吗没错吧"},{"start":494.775,"end":523.034,"text":"用黑數可能過於簡單的形容它是統計方式的不一樣因為你看五百多億一個行為人針對十件案件以前可能是一件現在變成十件五百零二億跟八十八億這個差距真的是有點大我只能提醒你過去所公布的數字真的比我們大家所感知的數字差距太多但是我還是給你肯定九月之後這樣做是對的好不好我們給予更多的人力以後就繼續這樣子"},{"start":524.615,"end":549.395,"text":"這個變化讓大家知道是有在努力我們還會更努力但是很可怕五百多億一天就要一億多院長這很恐怖但是你看我們這邊的猖狂我們這邊的猖狂可是你看我還是調列出來你看我們過去從2016年打詐這個犯罪中心然後你又把它變成打詐國家對又變成打詐辦公室然後你現在變成行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心"},{"start":550.376,"end":553.139,"text":"院長啊白天換來換過去就像那個騙數騙來騙過去喔還是讓我們達到506億啦院長這是很恐怖的數字啦我再次的說明我們的努力跟人民的期待還是有落差但是我還是強調那句話"},{"start":565.253,"end":592.791,"text":"是越打越多 而是不打會更多但我們持續在 今年從春節之後各項的數字是在明顯緩緩的下降這個是每週的數字好 所以我們現在記住了 現在是五百零多億我希望明年 在在那不要明年啊 像會期如果你還在的話我希望我得到的一個數字會比現在的數字來的在如實呈報之後這個數字就會往下降我們共同來期許好不好請部長說明一下 簡單說明"},{"start":593.892,"end":608.833,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我想也因為是立法院有通過打詐司法以後內政部跟其他四五個部會都可以成立這樣子打詐的一條龍這樣子對於防止打詐或者是說對打詐的真實性會呈現給國人面前當然我們還是需要努力"},{"start":609.193,"end":622.384,"text":"也請委員多多指教數字上面呈現的連我自己都遭受過被詐騙的一個經驗對不對所以這個經驗已經完全是我們人民的一個日常給予你最大的一個期許但是我覺得這個數字就像如實的呈現但是確實在緩緩下降當中我們就來看看我們還是從一年當中來去看待這才是最真實的好不好"},{"start":629.13,"end":655.424,"text":"千萬不要為了美化數字而做的很多其他的一些事情好感謝那接下來我們來關切一些能源的問題啊我還是要特別強調當我們全世界都走向核能的新紀元的時候呢恭喜2025終於可能要變成非核家園了但是我還是要請教院長啊當全世界越來越多國家想要增加我們對核能這個所謂新技術的研發的時候呢我們今年可以說是個非核"},{"start":656.485,"end":677.172,"text":"那我們國民黨身為最大黨我說實在的我們主張把非碳家園來取代非核家園所以我們提出一些的修法我不曉得院長跟部長對於非碳家園這樣子的一個走向你們的看法是如何非碳家園難道是連火力連天然氣都不能嗎因為它都是有碳的"},{"start":677.611,"end":699.786,"text":"我就我只能告訴他說非泰來說的話是未來的全世界的一個趨勢所以我們會對於今年的這個核子反應器的設施管制辦法我們會提出的修法行政院會有相對的版本出來嗎對這件事情你說核管法核管法目前的規定我們是照核管法的規定我們會提出修法行政院的態度會是什麼大院的任何的法律院預算我說過只要符合憲法"},{"start":706.756,"end":730.996,"text":"為什麼我要特別提出這個問題只要是經過充分的討論民主的程序你經過非常多社會的對話你也告訴我們政府可以全面討論有關於核能技術而且你承諾在我們這個核電廠除役之後所有相關人員也不會離開這是院長講過的不要求台電要做什麼因為他們還有很多核後端的工作要做是沒有錯也有很多核的技術"},{"start":731.937,"end":753.103,"text":"可以在面臨核能的技術這是世界趨勢但是院長你知道嗎台電正在規劃要撤裁核能發電處院長你知道這件事嗎他們要撤裁喔台電內部有這麼規劃不知道但是整個政策是一致的核能新技術的接觸討論是開放的我們對核二端的處理還要持續進行"},{"start":753.903,"end":772.774,"text":"这些人员都是最有经验的所以你知道你知道他要撤财核能发电处你知道目前来说他们里面的人都是核工的人才他们就在质疑对自己的前途是非常的忧虑他们认为要发展新的核能这部分谁来当你把它撤财之后这些人难道未来只能管理核废料吗还有一件事情"},{"start":773.174,"end":791.412,"text":"你也可以反映在我們未來在很多國公費的流考當中我們沒有合共這一項我們合共過去所培養的人才現在全部被美國所有因為世界各國都需要核能的技術我們過去所培養的人才全部送過去我們反而在未來培養人才當中沒有這一項技術所以院長你真的不要告訴我我們對於核能"},{"start":792.293,"end":804.547,"text":"以民進黨當家還在對這一方面還是有所謂的一個會跟對話的空間像目前看不到我們是有這樣的空間也有這樣的準備請部長來答覆這個問題報告委員這個核能發電處您說要規劃財政"},{"start":807.572,"end":823.659,"text":"我是台電的主管但是我沒有收到這樣的訊息那你回去問一下好了可能內部的訊息我們比你更清楚院長的要求是這一些同仁雖然現在已經降載了但是人員都要保留"},{"start":823.979,"end":837.831,"text":"沒問題部長這是台電內部裡面你如果有的話請你明天你馬上打電話去問就知道好不好馬上給本席最後的一個結果我覺得這個就是一翻兩瞪眼有沒有再說馬上就可以看得出來但是我還是要討論啊因為"},{"start":839.472,"end":868.473,"text":"台电的目前来说的一个亏损的状况以至于我觉得上次的部长台说你愿意用很多的方法来求得我们能够给予台电两千亿的这样一个播组这是我们彼此之间的对话但是部长你知道院长你知道吗台电如果是在不断的用这个拨补的方法还是没有办法解决台电的亏损因为核心的问题是在什么因为我们当然知道再生能源非常的重要但是呢以目前我们台湾的发展来说购电成本大幅的增加"},{"start":868.973,"end":891.272,"text":"所以你卖的电越多用的电越多我们台电的亏损就越多嘛这是一个数据嘛过去我们可以告诉大家2022到2024的时候我们这个所谓的燃料支出因为恶务战争的已经过去的整个的成本已经下降了所以你完全很出来了我们的支出已经减少了1130亿啊但是我们购电的成本却来到了3095亿"},{"start":893.154,"end":911.167,"text":"你可以看得出来我们如果跟2022比起来的话我们是多增加645亿如果你再回到116年的106年的话2016年的话那是增加的1935亿如果我们的再生能源是这种方法的话其实你再多补多少是没有办法的我们再来看"},{"start":911.787,"end":928.879,"text":"你這個東西每年都要再去這樣去漲所以說你如果是這個方式繼續下去的話院長我們4月是不是要調漲電費而且可能到9%以上的這個電費是不是每當我們持續這個問題的時候你們就告訴我喔這個就是國民黨黨預算所以非得如何真的不是這樣事實擺在這個地方嘛你看"},{"start":931.181,"end":951.258,"text":"台電自己自發的電力火力發電2.87啊你外購就要3.46啊你風電6.59啊就是比別還要多啊這是個事實擺在這個地方就誠如我剛所說吧你右電越多你買電越多你的虧損就越多嘛那這裡面到底有沒有有些問題當然有你看以風電來說是最貴的風電出了什麼問題過去來說"},{"start":954.821,"end":972.986,"text":"同意你们发展再生能源但是我们整个策略是有问题的你刚刚看风电开发我们刚开始是台电向我们的这个开发商来购电对不对那银行因为看到台电嘛就台电不会倒啊就会给融资这没有问题后来你发现大家看到没有这个阶段"},{"start":973.726,"end":991.802,"text":"但是現在來說的話能源政策裡面現在風電要開發目前來說因為受不了了你就開始要找到別的機構我不曉得經濟部是誰想出綠電信保機制CPPA你要風電商自己去找買家而且一買就要買20年"},{"start":993.644,"end":1018.303,"text":"没有一个厂商可以有一个公司可以说它可以到20年的所以呢很多人这个所谓的这个风电厂商想要撤掉这时候我们就告诉你公股银行全部来聚宝可以但是呢又加上国产化加上这通膨又很多人很多的我们这个人就想要撤资这时候又找了我们这些什么人找了中钢中华电讯"},{"start":1018.883,"end":1041.541,"text":"高鐵中油又進來做這樣的一個平台我真的不知道就像當初的中鋼總部在我們高雄我真的不知道這個海基這個所謂星達海基的事情64億的事情會不會因為這是你沒有設置所謂受電平台台製電的平台又會造成很大的虧損如果虧損的話不是一句話就可以解決了64億這是過去錯誤的經驗台製電會不會也造成這樣的一個問題台製電的設置就是要符合現在的整個"},{"start":1050.063,"end":1069.872,"text":"發電業跟受電業的這個生態也就是要解決這個企業不能每一次的購買20年的這樣一個限制把它扁平化之後能夠讓中小型的企業也能夠來買這是一個理想當然是你現在都把公股拿去做擔保了你現在把這一群國營事業全部跳下去了我根本覺得這不是交通"},{"start":1069.912,"end":1085.191,"text":"所以一方面是解決這20年的問題一方面也是我們解決中小企業能夠未來你剛出興達海淀的六十之一你也告訴我要解決這個問題最後的結果就是他們虧損的六十之一這是一個擺在的一個事實所以為什麼為什麼現在你的售電平台的時候大家就覺得台電已經虧損沒有辦法所以找這些"},{"start":1087.433,"end":1112.241,"text":"這些的供應單位一起來承擔這個受電平台服務的性質是最大的他不是要來盈利的他不是來從中得取利益的他是服務院長跟部長這些都是我們的理想我們也很希望往這方面來前進但是我已經點出了一個問題就是因為不斷的是這樣所以真正解決很多我們用電的問題其實你已經覺得要開放一個空間來做一個對話的空間你要不要看"},{"start":1112.881,"end":1133.832,"text":"我们光是在这个能源的问题上面国民党内部就有很多不同的一个争议我们大家说为什么要帮民进党的这个错误的能源政策来买单就让他这样子可是身为最大在野党我们听到的非常多企业的声音包括你的童子贤董事长也特别提到的新晋的核能也是一个选项部长刚上任的时候也同意从企业界来"},{"start":1134.252,"end":1150.765,"text":"所以我这么个人就好好的开放很多的这个专家是已经帮你看出来了如果你能够用心经的方法再让我们合能的部分其实台电的亏损可以达到最低最低甚至可以翻身这个东西已经有那么多人来提到我只是希望"},{"start":1151.365,"end":1175.474,"text":"能夠終結台電虧損的方法不用部長再用自身的保障只要我們每年撥補你你辦部長你也很辛苦很辛苦你也是我們民眾人但是大家說每次說我今年要撥補兩千你要如何如何明年說我要撥補兩千幫台電做這麼背書你直接講能源政策應該做修正符合世界的趨勢這才是我們應該走的道路對不對報告委員我可以回答"},{"start":1176.983,"end":1184.272,"text":"我們的撥補不是說來補我的虧損而是在補我們過去政府體驗民間一般的用電戶"},{"start":1188.086,"end":1216.81,"text":"我們是補貼那個不是來補貼我經營上面的虧損部長這我們的認識有點落差我的撥補也不是只有補台電的部分我現在的撥補是告訴你如果你用這個方法剛剛的數據你告訴你用這個方法一直下去不管是對於我們電價的平穩或是對台電的一個虧損能源的政策如果照這樣走下去還是一句話用電越多賣電越多我們的虧損就越多這個是目前我們所看到的數字好不好"},{"start":1217.25,"end":1240.371,"text":"三句話跟委員答覆第一個虧損因為戰爭的因素大家都知道了那已經過去了因為我們的成本已經下降了這幾年當中現在看這幾年當中台電快速的而且很多的電廠都在更新要投入更多的資產這個也是一個成本的負擔再來我們希望用企業的管理精神讓台電財務能夠自主所以"},{"start":1241.152,"end":1270.162,"text":"部長也講過未來的兩年如果大院跟我們合作我們一起讓台電過去的虧損因為補貼政策的虧損能夠彌補我們來讓它能夠進入正常營運的狀態我們今天在這個地方我可以聽得到下次我在質詢兩位的時候我應該可以期待我們的詐騙數字會下降我們對於台電的撥補會下降然後我們的用電也會平穩可能四月可能在這個漲價的這樣子的一個危機上面我們可以解除我們也期望做到這個地方好不好我們就來看看"},{"start":1270.922,"end":1295.011,"text":"我們所提出的本席只是提出可能發生的問題用數據來告訴你我也期望部長跟院長可以把這些狀況把它回去做一些的釐清好接下來還是需要大院的合作配合大院很想合作大院其實我們對於總預算各方面我們都很想合作如果不想合作的話為什麼我們要總統要喊起我們韓院長召集這麼多人來做這樣子的一個協商這個協商被你們的總召給拆台了"},{"start":1298.652,"end":1308.629,"text":"就被他拆台啦然後你還提出復議我覺得這個部分這個要從盤古開天開始說起來院長我的時間有限啦好不好我的開始是成功的一半我需要另外一半"},{"start":1309.714,"end":1329.487,"text":"問題是你一剛開始就不成功了一開始就被拆台了還有什麼好面牆下去的問題為了好的開始你旁邊就給你拆台了我們需要另外成功的另外一半我們還是繼續那你成功另外一半就不是柯總召了你拜託這位姓柯的可能好一點啊好的開始大家共同來談現在已經開始了院長已經開始了我覺得這個開始已經不是一個需要另外一半我們尋找可以跟你match的另外一半我們來看看急診室的問題"},{"start":1339.281,"end":1355.227,"text":"谢谢那个郭部长你可以先下去休息了我们来看看急诊这已经是非常非常多了我现在最后其实要帮这个急诊室的这些所谓的护理人员来说话因为我们本席的办公室里面不管在高雄到台北都受到非常多非常多的一个陈情啊我现在只请问"},{"start":1356.067,"end":1374.473,"text":"目前來說真的跟所有的不管是第一線的護理人員來看的話每年增加至少三十億這是你們所承諾的而且這是抓到點了終於從二月十八月十三到二十四開的三場會議之後都是被大家罵爆了終於提出三十億這個部分來說的話部長"},{"start":1376.494,"end":1399.568,"text":"有沒有辦法直接撥到護理人員的帳戶當中不用被醫院東扣西扣就像以前我們在COVID的時候即使撥補了有很多真的進到這個護理人員的這個帳戶裡面其實已經所剩無幾有沒有辦法利用這個部分裡面直接撥補到他們的帳戶裡面有沒有辦法做到報告委員我想如果是健保這個部分如果他已經被內到"},{"start":1401.28,"end":1416.336,"text":"我剛講的問題是非常簡單的因為像目前來說你每年增加30億嘛那其實我說實在的對於護理人員最重要的就是我們的友善醫療環境嘛我們的友善的醫療環境嘛"},{"start":1419.62,"end":1441.405,"text":"薪水提升我說實在的不是唯一的方法但起碼你可以讓大家覺得他的付出的辛勞是有的你看看馬建業院長每天在蓋章護理師每天欠缺這也是國安問題非常嚴重而且部長你是醫生出身的你也知道急診如果燒到開刀房會影響到我們的品質你知道現在最大的狀況是什麼嗎現在最大的狀況是資深的"},{"start":1446.326,"end":1461.915,"text":"我们现在出我们完全资深的被操到离职新来的被吓到离职那这完全是个恶性循环呢不是吗这目前所反映的一个状况已经反映非常久了所以你看我们现在目前所整理出来跟所有各团体所整理出来的"},{"start":1462.535,"end":1481.738,"text":"你即使你們所開出的藥方基本上對於醫護沒有辦法你把降低然後要多增加所謂的護理人員就沒人要來扣沒人要去買啊大家怕也怕死所以這個部分你們看而且新人沒有即戰力而且我剛所提到的嘛出售比例變得很大而且你想比較一下幾年前我們的護理師的平均年資"},{"start":1483.42,"end":1506.119,"text":"6.5已經跟歐美來說十幾年來說已經變低了現在更是 而且你所提出的夜班的獎勵其實我說實在也是反效果我們大家只是在問醫師總統為什麼其實你讓我們的醫療單位其實瀕臨一個非常危急崩潰的一個狀況我們來看一下嘛到底我們到底我們有沒有對護理人員真的有沒有做到承諾"},{"start":1506.92,"end":1528.545,"text":"院长你应该知道嘛过去你看在2013年的11月的时候医师节的时候赖总统我们的赖医师特别承诺推三班护病笔入法每年至少200亿来提升医疗人员的待遇到底是信赖护理还是临时护理这是你们当初的承诺现在到哪里去了"},{"start":1529.551,"end":1551.572,"text":"跟委員報告至少我們在今年已經編列了66.85億在公務預算裡面做事件工作第一個就是推動三班輪值護理人員的直接獎勵第二點是三班貨幣比達到達標醫院的獎勵達標醫院給醫院的獎勵第三個是你說的護理新手導師的制度來來來 院長院長這個是友善職場"},{"start":1555.075,"end":1574.148,"text":"來來來 我跟你講 你看你們就念茲在茲就要講這個護理導師的這個部分來 我們看最後一頁裡面你講啊 這是你們念茲在茲認為12項護理人員的政策的準備計畫你們把它拿出來當神一樣 當聖經一樣其中我可以講出來護理新手臨床導師制度是3.6億沒錯吧 部長你覺得自己得證你看3.6億到底用在什麼地方我告訴你"},{"start":1579.691,"end":1595.764,"text":"護理師特別是資深的護理師告訴你他本來的工作完全就用不完的還要帶一個新進的而且新進的很難帶最重要是你要申請這些經費你還要寫報告你要寫計劃書你們寫羊羊騷騷去問第一線的護理人員誰給你寫計劃書誰幫你帶新進人員你還告訴我你有3.6億你到底有沒有用對地方你們還拿出來當聖經說你們做了12項對護理人員做得這麼好"},{"start":1607.918,"end":1628.172,"text":"这就像你去视察一样,你只看到表层东下出来,下到11条但是我只问两件事嘛,有没有办法薪资直接,30亿承诺的直接汇到我们护理人员的薪资里面,直接汇入第二,你告诉我的导师制,导师制就告诉你不是这样啦,3.6亿没人要申请啦"},{"start":1629.933,"end":1630.434,"text":"我會背個報告一下"},{"start":1646.138,"end":1662.982,"text":"變成夜班的獎勵,那當然是直接就到婦理人員的身上你夜班獎勵又是被拿出來批評的因為大家覺得夜班獎勵就是相對的剝奪感你還把他拿出來當聖經保釘啊,你知不知道民間奇苦你真的是醫生出來的喔?還是醫生做醫生,你都看不到好處在身口啊嗯"},{"start":1668.883,"end":1680.892,"text":"護理員的辛苦我們當然了解而且剛你說這個平均的年資6.5真的是沒有錯7年來看對護理人員是一個離職率最高的一個時期因為他有種種家庭個人的因素"},{"start":1681.383,"end":1699.232,"text":"所以我們如何讓新進的人員能夠快速補充現在行政院跟考試院我們也建立一個考校用的平台希望未來能夠更實質的增加考用的人選能夠增加所以未來在考試的過程當中一定要比現在更優化不是降低 而是普遍性"},{"start":1700.977,"end":1725.074,"text":"這個常識的水準能夠讓考試的人來進行到考試裡面來進到這個這就是你們所提出的策略但是我還是必須要說你前三次的最大的會議當中你們真的沒有問到基層人員我們為了這個急診室報診我們問了多少的團體訪談了多少的醫護人員他們真的還是很辛苦的告訴你你們真的是劃錯重點你不斷的希望有很多新人進來"},{"start":1725.814,"end":1740.535,"text":"第一个新人吓都被吓走而且呢目前来说就像当初我们推行的长照设备一样教育部开放了非常多有关于长照类似的系统那是没人要出来谈了因为我们整个的医疗环境一点都不友善"},{"start":1740.996,"end":1758.964,"text":"所以你去优化也没用你是护病笔也没用因为像没有人你去哪里比啊你跟谁比啊你到底找谁来来念啊你即使不管有没有优化还是门槛就是没有人因为大家已经被这个医疗环境给吓死了好不好要么不是被抄死就是被吓死这是目前我们第一线的问题"},{"start":1760.131,"end":1783.789,"text":"但是我還是跟委員報告兩年前我們的在職人員是8萬6千多人那現在是19萬3千多人還是有實質的進步只是他的流動率應該是蠻大你現在19萬是到什麼時候的數據今年1月的時候今年1月好那我們下次在質詢的時候我們再看看19萬19萬四五月畢業之後應該有一撥還會再增加起來院長"},{"start":1784.77,"end":1808.862,"text":"你真的完全如果是這樣子的話我們的醫護人員不會馬街的副院長天天在簽離職書啦這個東西的話真的也不要美化是數字如果這麼厲害的話真的說實在的醫護人員不能只靠他們對於病患對於醫學的一個熱忱我們這個不是做功德的這個實質的一個薪資待遇我還是強調我恭喜在大家一日之講一句話部長聽進去"},{"start":1810.563,"end":1814.364,"text":"基層的醫護人員就告訴你,現在不能改變太多,錢直接匯到帳戶"},{"start":1833.707,"end":1835.389,"text":"好 謝謝柯志恩委員的資訊謝謝總院長 相關部會所長的備詢接下來我們請張綺"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":780,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（10時50分）謝謝主席，是不是請我們的卓院長？"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：柯委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：院長好。台積電宣布要投資1,000億美元，大概是3.3兆臺幣，在美國建造3座半導體廠還包括研發中心，請問院長您是什麼時候知道這個消息的？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然我們要正式說，也就是他正式宣布的時候，我們是同步的了解，但是之前政府跟產業的接觸是頻繁的，而且是有效的……"],["柯委員志恩：所以你之前就知道這些訊息了嗎？什麼時候知道的？你之前就知道了嗎？對美國來說當然是一件好消息，那對院長來說，對臺灣是好消息嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得產業界去做全球的布局，對臺灣都是力量的延伸，只要在合乎國家的戰略布局，我覺得這個都是……"],["柯委員志恩：晶片絕對是我們國家的戰略物資，你今天有特別提到這是創造互惠共贏，我們大家就要問，到底臺灣贏到什麼？我們臺灣有贏到美國的安全保證嗎？很多人質疑，因為台積電是護國神山，現在它已經變成川普移山，甚至政府有沒有辦法變成他們最大的靠山，這是我們所討論的。因為這一次雖然你可以告訴大家這是全球的布局，它在日本有廠、美國也有廠，但是據說它這次去的是16埃米，相當於1.6奈米，在我們高雄楠梓是2奈米，我們認為已經非常先進了，可是它如果去到美國時可以用到1.6奈米、更先進，而且它的研發中心都出去了，難免會讓大家覺得我們是整個根都被刨掉了，這是很多國人的疑慮。","而且你可以聽到Trump今天特別提到，如果臺灣有事的話美國會有很大的影響，而且美國已經因為台積電要過去了，他們在半導體的產業上具有很大的影響力。院長，你怎麼看待？對臺灣還是好嗎？當我們的「矽盾」似乎已經被削弱時，我們臺灣的籌碼到底是多還是少？"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣有事，全世界都會受到影響，臺灣有事，中國也不會沒事，我們現在跟世界友盟國家所努力的就是維持印太地區的和平穩定。"],["柯委員志恩：我現在只是問說，台積電把所有的先進製程、所有的研發中心全部過去了……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有……"],["柯委員志恩：似乎就是我們的矽盾已經被削弱了，你對這件事情的看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：我之前在這裡跟委員答復時說過，我們希望達到四個原則，第一個，臺灣在製造領先的地位不會改變，所以無論做任何的海外投資、海外設廠，一定要維持臺灣在製造的領先地位。"],["柯委員志恩：好，院長不好意思，我知道你說的四個部分，你之前講過。我要問一下經濟部長，這件事情我們的投審會態度是如何？因為你之前也告訴我們，如果台積電要赴美的話必須要有投審會的審查，你敢跟川普說不嗎？還是你覺得投審會根本沒有任何的作用，就絕對是會讓台積電過去了？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，就投審會的部分，我們當然依照現行的法令規範會來審查。"],["柯委員志恩：魏哲家跟川普都已經站在那個地方了，你還要審查什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：我們對外投資就是要審查。"],["柯委員志恩：好，然後結果呢？還要審查？所以……"],["郭部長智輝：當然要審查啊！"],["柯委員志恩：好啦，審查的結果應該是99.9%會通過嘛！因為剛院長已經講過了，台積電是布局全世界嘛，而且台積電已經高於臺灣非常多。我請問，當川普提出了所謂的關稅，因為台積電要過去起碼可以降低它被課稅這樣的一個危機，稍微能夠減輕危機，而部長也特別提到2月11號當川普宣布要加重關稅的時候，你已經派江次長過去了嘛，那個時候你告訴我們你要跟川普的團隊對於關稅問題做溝通，然後25號你被問到的時候，你說：「不是溝通，是去情蒐。」，所以到底是去幹嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然是去情蒐啊！"],["柯委員志恩：你之前有沒有跟川普的團隊溝通到？你有沒有跟川普團隊溝通？有溝通到台積電嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們不是去談判的團隊啊！"],["柯委員志恩：那誰是談判團隊？"],["郭部長智輝：我們行政院有談判辦公室啊！"],["柯委員志恩：應該經濟部你就是談判的團隊，我只說你情蒐到台積電要過去嗎？因為你當初說是去溝通，但你後來變成情蒐……"],["郭部長智輝：不是，報告委員……"],["柯委員志恩：所以我只問你情蒐到什麼？像中華隊情蒐可以贏球，那你情蒐到什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：我們所情蒐的是美國的環境是怎麼樣，我們了解之後……"],["柯委員志恩：所以你獲得了台積電的情蒐資料了嗎？有沒有？這一塊有沒有在你的情蒐範圍當中？"],["郭部長智輝：我們只是去華府，我們並沒有到亞利桑那去。"],["柯委員志恩：喔，你們沒有，所以你們層級到什麼地方？"],["郭部長智輝：我們到華府啊！"],["柯委員志恩：有到很高的層級嗎？可以了解整個產業的需求，對臺灣未來跟美國所謂經濟安全這項物資做出什麼樣很好的情資嗎？可以把它給帶回來，給我們作為很大的參考嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們去不是為台積電投資這件事情……"],["柯委員志恩：當然……部長我只是要告訴你，當你2月11號告訴我們要去溝通，後來你告訴我們要去情蒐。院長，我真的認為，如果只是情蒐的話，請低調的去、低調的回來，不要讓大家覺得好大的一個陣仗，結果最後告訴我不是溝通，只是情蒐，我覺得在用詞上面必須要很精準。","接下來，我還是要請院長，我要問一下打詐的問題，等一下我還有能源問題要請教部長，但部長你可以先回去休息一下。我先來問一下打詐，院長，我還是要讓你看一下數據，打詐就目前來說，全民都在受苦，但是你看到沒有，這是公開資料裡面提到的，110年我們財損的金額是56億，院長，113年是502億，你可以看出這個巨幅的差距嗎？而且你看看那時候在110年只有2萬4,000件，到了113年，竟然高達十二萬多件，這個詐騙金額可以說是110年的9倍。仔細看起來的話，我可以跟院長講，平均一天是336件詐騙，一天損失1億3,769萬耶！院長，當你看到數字差距這麼大的時候，你不會產生懷疑嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我也承認國人關心打詐這件事情，政府的努力還遠不及國人對政府的要求，這個我們清楚，所以我們每天、每天都在精進。那為什麼數字上會有這麼大的變化？我們從去年9月開始改變了整個統計數字……"],["柯委員志恩：很好，院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：這一點要讓國人知道……"],["柯委員志恩：很好、很好，院長，這點我給予你肯定。我們再來看一下，的確是這個樣子，因為你們改變了一些數據……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝委員。"],["柯委員志恩：我明顯條列出來了，你看9月跟8月就差距很多了，8月的時候還只有14億而已，可是9月竟然就到了86億，這代表什麼？因為那時候警政署還有所有相關單位都告訴我們，之前因為人力不足，情蒐有問題，所以我們只能把比較容易破案的登錄上去，9月之後幾乎是人家只要一報就登上去，對不對？這代表什麼？代表9月之後處理是對的，也代表8月之前……抱歉，院長、部長們，表示有很多的黑數，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是……"],["柯委員志恩：這表示我們國人過去從110年到去年8月之前有很多的黑數，那個金額就不只是我們所看到的那樣而已，沒錯吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：用黑數可能過於簡單的形容……"],["柯委員志恩：沒有啦……"],["卓院長榮泰：這是統計方式的不一樣。"],["柯委員志恩：那就是……因為你看五百多億……"],["卓院長榮泰：一個行為人針對十件案件，以前可能是一件，現在變成十件……"],["柯委員志恩：502億跟88億的差距真的是有點大，我只能提醒，你們過去所公布的數字真的比我們大家所感知的數字差距太多，但是我還是給你肯定，9月之後這樣做是對的，給予更多的人力，以後就繼續這樣子。"],["卓院長榮泰：讓國人知道這個變化，讓大家知道我們是有在努力的。"],["柯委員志恩：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還會更努力。"],["柯委員志恩：但是很可怕，五百多億，一天就要一億多，院長，這很恐怖，但是你看我們這樣的……"],["卓院長榮泰：這應該不是實際發生的數字。"],["柯委員志恩：對啊，這麼樣的猖狂。我還是把它條列出來，過去我們從2016年的打詐犯罪中心，然後你把它變成打詐國家隊，又變成打詐辦公室，現在變成行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心。院長，牌子換來換去，就像那個騙術騙來騙去，還是讓我們達到506億，院長，這是很恐怖的數字啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我再次說明，我們的努力跟人民的期待還是有落差，但我還是強調那句話，不是越打越多，而是不打會更多。我們持續的講，今年春節之後，各項數字是明顯緩緩的下降，這個是每週回報過來的數字。"],["柯委員志恩：好，所以我們現在記住了，現在是五百零多億，我希望明年……不要明年，下會期如果你還在的話，我希望我得到的數字會比現在的數字來得……在如實呈報之後，這個數字就會往下降，我們共同來期許，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長簡單說明一下。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的關心。立法院通過打詐四法後，內政部跟其他四、五個部會可以成立打詐一條龍，如此對於打詐或打詐的真實性會呈現在國人面前。當然，我們還是需要努力，也請委員多多指教。"],["柯委員志恩：是，這是數字上的呈現，連我自己都有過被詐騙的經驗，這已經完全是人民的日常了，所以我要給你最大的期許，但我覺得數字就是要如實呈現。"],["劉部長世芳：但它確實在緩緩下降當中。"],["柯委員志恩：我們就來看看，我們還是以一年來看，這才是最真實的，好不好？千萬不要為了美化數字而做很多其他事情來……"],["劉部長世芳：不會，我們不會美化。"],["柯委員志恩：感謝。接下來我們來關切能源的問題。","我要特別強調，當全世界都走向核能新紀元時，恭喜我們在2025可能要變成非核家園了！我要請教院長，當全世界越來越多國家想增加對核能新技術的研發時，我們卻可能在今年達成非核，國民黨身為最大黨，說實在的，我們主張以非碳家園來取代非核家園，所以我們會提出一些修法。不曉得院長、部長對於非碳家園的走向，你們的看法是如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：非碳家園？難道連火力、連天然氣都不能用嗎？因為它都有排碳。"],["柯委員志恩：我只能說，非碳是未來全世界的趨勢，所以我們會在今年就核子反應器設施管制辦法提出修法，行政院會有相對的版本出來嗎？對這件事情？"],["卓院長榮泰：核管法？"],["柯委員志恩：嗯。"],["卓院長榮泰：核管法目前的規定、我們是照核管法的規定在走……"],["柯委員志恩：我們會提出修法，行政院的態度會是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：我說過，大院的任何法律案、預算案只要符合憲法，只要不侵害人民……"],["柯委員志恩：為什麼我要特別提出這個問題……"],["卓院長榮泰：只要經過充分的討論、民主的程序……"],["柯委員志恩：好。你聽過非常多社會的對話，你也告訴我們，政府可以全面討論有關於核能技術的問題，而且你承諾在核電廠除役之後，所有相關人員也不會離開，這是院長講的……"],["卓院長榮泰：我要求台電要做這麼做，因為他們還有很多核後端的工作要做。"],["柯委員志恩：是沒有錯……"],["卓院長榮泰：也有很多核能技術可以在面臨……"],["柯委員志恩：核能的技術？對，這是世界趨勢。但是院長你知道嗎？台電正在規劃要撤裁核能發電處，院長，你知道這件事嗎？他們要撤裁喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：台電內部有沒有這麼規劃不知道，但整個政策是一致的……"],["柯委員志恩：不會！"],["卓院長榮泰：核能新技術的接觸、討論是開放的，我們對核後端的處理還要持續進行，這些人員都是最有經驗的。"],["柯委員志恩：所以你知道他要撤裁核能發電處！目前裡面的人都是核工人才，他們就在質疑，也對自己的前途非常憂慮，他們認為要發展新核能，這部分誰來？但當你把它撤裁之後，未來這些人難道只能管理核廢料嗎？還有一件事情，這會反映在未來的公費留考中，也就是沒有核工這一項！過去我們在核工所培養的人才現在全部被美國所用，因為世界各國都需要核能技術，所以我們過去所培養的人才全部送過去，未來我們所培養的人才當中反而沒有這一項技術。院長，你真的不要告訴我對於核能……現在民進黨當家，在這一方面還是有對話空間？至少現在、目前看不到！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有這樣的空間，也有這樣準備，請部長來答復這個問題。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，您說核能發電處要規劃裁撤，我是台電的主管，但是我沒有收到這樣的訊息……"],["柯委員志恩：你回去問一下好了，可能內部的訊息我們比你更早知道或更清楚。"],["郭部長智輝：院長的要求是：這些同仁，雖然現在已經降載了，但是人員都要保留……"],["柯委員志恩：沒問題……"],["郭部長智輝：人員都要……"],["柯委員志恩：部長，這是台電內部消息。如果有的話，請你明天馬上打電話去問就知道，好不好？馬上給本席最後的結果，我覺得這是一翻兩瞪眼，有沒有再說，馬上就可以看得出來的。不過我還是要討論，由於目前台電的虧損狀況，部長上次才說願意用很多方法來求得我們給予台電2,000億的撥補，這是我們彼此之間的對話。但是部長、院長，你們知道嗎？如果就這樣不斷地撥補台電，還是沒有辦法解決台電的虧損！因為核心的問題在什麼？我們當然知道再生能源非常重要，但以目前臺灣的發展來說，購電成本大幅增加，所以賣的電越多，用的電越多，台電的虧損就越多，這就是數據。我們可以告訴大家，2022年到2024年的燃料支出上，因為俄烏戰爭已經過去了，整個成本已經下降，所以可以看出支出已經減少1,130億，倒是購電成本卻來到了3,095億，你可以看得出來，如果跟2022年比起來，我們是多增加了645億；如果與2016年相比的話則是增加了1,935億。如果我們的再生能源是這種方法的話，你再撥補多少都是沒有辦法的。","我們再來看，這個每年都要漲，如果用這個方式繼續下去的話，院長，我們4月是不是要調漲電費？而且可能是調幅9%以上的電費？是不是？每當我們提出這個問題的時候，你們就告訴我這是因為國民黨擋預算所以非得如何，真的不是這樣！事實擺在這個地方嘛！你看，以台電自發電力與外購電力的單價來說，火力發電的自發單價是2.87元，外購單價就要3.46元，而風電的外購單價是6.59元，就是比別人還要多啊，這個事實就擺在這個地方，就誠如我剛才所說的，用電越多、買電越多，虧損就越多！","這裡面到底有沒有問題？當然有！你看，風電的外購單價是最貴的，而風電出了什麼問題？過去同意你們發展再生能源，但是我們的整個策略是有問題的。你看，我們的風電開發一開始是台電向開發商購電，對不對？銀行因為看到台電，覺得台電不會倒，就會給融資，這沒有問題，大家可以看到那個階段的情形是如此。但是以現在來說的話，能源政策裡面的風電開發，因為受不了了，就開始要找別的機構，我不曉得經濟部是誰想出綠電信保機制CPPA，你要風電商自己去找買家，而且一買就要20年，沒有一個廠商、公司可以說要買電20年的，所以很多的風電商想要撤掉，這時候我們就告訴你，公股銀行全部來具保，可以，但是又加上國產化、加上通膨，又有很多人想要撤資，這時候又找了什麼人？找了中鋼、中華電信、高鐵、中油進來做這樣的平台。當初的中鋼，總部是在我們高雄，當初中鋼轉投資的興達海基後來虧損了64億，我真的不知道會不會因為這次你們要設置所謂售電平台「台智電」而又造成很大虧損，如果虧損的話，不是一句話就可以解決的！64億是過去錯誤的經驗，「台智電」會不會也造成這樣的問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：「台智電」的設置就是要符合現在整個發電業跟售電業的生態，也就是要解決企業不能每次購買20年的這樣一個限制，把它扁平化之後，讓中小型企業也能夠來買……"],["柯委員志恩：這是一個理想。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是……"],["柯委員志恩：當然是！你現在都把公股拿去做擔保了，這一群國營事業全部跳下去了，我根本覺得是交替……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個一方面是解決20年的問題，一方面也是解決中小企業未來……"],["柯委員志恩：當初興達海基的64億也告訴我是要解決這個問題，但最後的結果就是他們虧損了64億，這是一個事實，所以為什麼你現在推出的售電平台會讓大家覺得台電已經虧損到沒有辦法了，所以就找這些公營單位一起來承擔。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個售電平台是以服務性質為最大，不是要來營利的，它不是來從中得取利益，而是要服務更多需要綠電的中小企業。"],["柯委員志恩：好啦，院長跟部長，這都是我們的理想，我們也很希望往這方面來前進，但是我已經點出了問題，就是因為不斷這樣，所以要真正解決我們用電的問題，其實你已經覺得要開放空間，嚴肅對話的空間，你知不知道光是在能源問題上國民黨內部就有很多不同的爭議，大家質疑為什麼要幫民進黨的錯誤能源政策買單？就讓它這樣子啊！可是身為最大的在野黨，我們聽到了非常多企業的聲音，包括你的童子賢董事長也特別提到的，新核能也是一個選項，部長從企業界來，剛上任的時候也同意，所以我覺得就好好的開放，很多的專家學者已經幫你看出來了，如果能夠將新興方法用在核能的部分，其實台電的虧損可以降到最低最低，甚至可以翻身。這個東西已經有那麼多人提到了，我只是希望能終結台電的虧損，不用部長再以自身來保證，只要我們每年撥補，不然部長也很辛苦，你也是我們屏東人耶，但是每次說今年撥補2,000億要如何如何、明年又要撥補2,000億，這樣在幫台電背書，你就直接講能源政策應該做修正，符合世界的趨勢，這才是我們應該走的道路嘛！對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我可以回答嗎？我們撥補不是來補我的虧損，而是補我們過去政府體念民間的一般用電戶，我們是補貼那個，不是補貼經營上的虧損。"],["柯委員志恩：欸，部長！我們的認知有點落差。我說的撥補也不是只有補台電的部分，我現在說的撥補是告訴你，如果你用這個方法，剛剛的數據也告訴你，用這個方法一直下去，不管是對於電價的平穩，或是對於台電的虧損，能源政策如果照這樣走下去，還是一句話，用電越多，賣電越多，我們的虧損就越多，這個是目前我們所看到的數字，好不好？我期待……"],["卓院長榮泰：三句話跟委員答復，第一個，虧損是因為戰爭的因素，大家都知道了，第……"],["柯委員志恩：那個已經過去了，因為我們的成本已經下降了嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，已經過去了。現在在這幾年當中，台電快速的，而且很多的電廠都在更新，要投入更多的資產，這個也是一個成本的負擔。再來，我們希望用企業的管理精神，讓台電的財務能夠自主。所以，部長也講過，未來的兩年，如果大院跟我們合作，我們一起讓台電過去因為補貼政策的虧損能夠彌補，讓它能夠進入正常營運的狀態。"],["柯委員志恩：好啦，院長，我們今天在這個地方，我可以聽得到，下次我再質詢兩位的時候，我應該可以期待我們的詐騙數字會下降，我們對於台電的撥補會下降，然後我們的用電也會平穩，可能4月的漲價危機可以解除，我們也期望做到這個部分，好不好？我們就來看看我們所提出來的，本席只是提出可能發生的問題，用數據來告訴你，我也期望部長跟院長，可以回去把這些狀況做一些釐清。","好，接下來……"],["卓院長榮泰：還是需要大院的合作、配合。"],["柯委員志恩：大院很想合作，其實我們對於總預算各方面，我們都很想合作。如果不想合作的話，為什麼總統要函請我們韓院長召集這麼多人來做協商。但這個協商被你們的總召給拆台了，對啊，就拆台了，然後你們還提出覆議。我覺得這個部分要從盤古開天開始說起，院長，我的時間有限，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是好的開始，是成功的一半，我們需要另外一半。"],["柯委員志恩：問題是你一剛開始就不成功了，一開始就被拆台了，還有什麼好講下去的？"],["卓院長榮泰：韓院長有好的開始，我很謝謝韓院長……"],["柯委員志恩：韓院長有了好的開始，你旁邊就給你拆台啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，我們需要成功的另外一半，我們還是繼續來努力。"],["柯委員志恩：那你成功的另外一半就不是柯總召了，你拜託我這位姓柯的可能好一點……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是這樣，這不是任何單一個人的責任，好的開始大家共同來談……"],["柯委員志恩：現在已經開始了，院長，已經開始了，我覺得這個開始已經不是一個……"],["卓院長榮泰：對，所以已經成功了一半，需要另外一半。"],["柯委員志恩：需要另外一半？好，我們尋找可以跟你match的另外一半。","好，來，我們來看看急診室的問題。","謝謝郭部長，你可以先下去休息了。","我們來看看急診，這已經是非常非常多的，我現在最後只是要幫急診室的護理人員來說話，因為本席的辦公室裡面，不管在高雄在臺北，都收到非常多、非常多的陳情。我現在只是請問，目前來說，真的跟所有的，不管是第一線的護理人員來看的話，每年增加至少30億，這是你們所承諾的。OK，這是抓到點了，從2月8號、2月13號到2月24號開了三場會議之後，都被大家罵爆了，終於提出30億，這個部分來說的話，部長，有沒有辦法直接撥到護理人員的帳戶當中，不用被醫院東扣西扣，就像以前我們在COVID的時候，即使也撥補了很多，但真的進到護理人員的帳戶裡面其實已經所剩無幾，有沒有辦法將這個部分直接撥補到他們的帳戶裡面，有沒有辦法做到？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想如果是健保這個部分，如果它已經編列到護理費，我們一定督導完全花在護理人力的給付上面。"],["柯委員志恩：我剛剛講的問題其實非常簡單，因為像目前來說，你每年增加30億嘛，然後其實我說實在的，對於護理人員來說，最重要的就是友善的醫療環境。所謂友善的醫療環境，薪水提增，我說實在的，不是唯一的方法，但起碼你可以讓大家覺得，他們的辛勞付出是有回報的。你看看，馬偕醫院院長每天都在蓋章，護理師每天欠缺，這已經是國安問題，非常的嚴重。而且，部長，你是醫生出身的，你也知道，急診的狀況如果擴散到開刀房，會影響到我們的醫療品質。","你知道現在最大的狀況是什麼嗎？現在最大的狀況是，資深的護理師被操到離職，新來的被嚇到離職，這完全是個惡性循環，不是嗎？目前這個狀況已經反映非常久了。所以，你看，我們現在跟所有各個團體所整理出來的，你們所開出的藥方基本上對於醫護沒有辦法，你把護病比降低，然後要多增加所謂的護理人員，問題就沒人要來考，沒人要進來啊，大家怕都怕死了。所以這個部分你可以看看，新人沒有即戰力，而且誠如我剛剛所提到的，出錯比例變得很高。你再比較一下，幾年前我們的護理師的平均年資6.5年，跟歐美的平均年資十幾年來說已經變低了，現在更是，而且你所提出的夜班獎勵，其實我說實在也是反效果。我們大家只是在問醫師總統，為什麼你讓我們醫療單位瀕臨一個非常危急、崩潰的狀況？我們來看一下，到底我們對護理人員有沒有真的做到承諾？院長你應該知道，過去在2023年11月醫師節的時候，賴總統、我們的賴醫師特別承諾要推三班護病比入法，每年至少200億來提升醫療人員的待遇，現在在哪裡？到底是信賴護理還是凌遲護理？這是你們當初的承諾，現在到哪裡去了？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，至少我們在今年已經編列了66.85億在公務預算裡面做四件工作，第一個就是推動三班輪值護理人員的直接獎勵；第二個是給三班護病比達標醫院的獎勵；第三個是你說的護理新手導師的制度。"],["柯委員志恩：來，來，來，院長，我一定要提醒一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：第四個是友善職場。"],["柯委員志恩：來，來，來，我跟你說，你們念茲在茲就是要講護理導師這個部分，我們來看最後一頁，這是你們念茲在茲的十二項護理人員政策整備計畫，你們把它拿出來當神一樣、當聖經一樣，其中我可以講出來，護理新手臨床導師制度是3.6億，沒錯吧！部長，你覺得這是德政，你看3.6億到底用在什麼地方？我告訴你，護理師特別是資深的護理師告訴你，他本來的工作完全就做不完了，還要帶一個新進的，而且新進的很難帶，最重要的是，你要申請這些經費還要寫報告、寫計畫書，現在什麼人有時間來寫計畫書啊！你們寫得洋洋灑灑，你去問第一線的護理人員，誰跟你寫計畫書？誰要幫你帶新進人員？你還要告訴我你有3.6億，你到底有沒有用對地方？你們還把它拿出來當聖經說你們做了十二項，對護理人員做得這麼好，就像你去視察一樣，你只看到表層都寫出來了，寫了十二條，但是我只問兩件事，有沒有辦法承諾30億直接匯到我們護理人員的薪資裡面，直接匯入！第二，你告訴我所謂的導師制，但導師制就不是這樣啦！3.6億沒人要申請啦！累得要死還要再去寫這些，誰做這件事啊！就像卓越計畫一樣，寫得要死，到底對我們大學的卓越有什麼幫助？我們越說越火大，一天到晚寫這個卓越計畫，寫得都很火！"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我報告一下，我們編列夜班的獎勵當然是直接就到護理人員的身上。"],["柯委員志恩：你提到夜班獎勵，又是被拿出來批評的，因為大家覺得夜班獎勵就是相對的剝奪感，你還把它拿出來當聖經，部長，你知不知道民間疾苦？你真的是醫生出身的嗎？還是當醫生時都看不到護士在辛苦呢？好啦……"],["邱部長泰源：委員的意思是……"],["柯委員志恩：我的意思是說……"],["卓院長榮泰：護理人員的辛苦我們當然了解，而且剛剛你說平均年資6.5年，真的是沒有錯，以7年來看，對護理人員來說是一個離職率最高的時期，因為他有家庭、個人種種的因素，所以我們如何讓新進的人員能夠快速補充，現在行政院跟考試院也建立一個考教用的平臺，希望未來能夠更實質的讓考用人選能夠增加，所以未來在考試的過程當中一定要比現在更優化，不是降低，而是普遍性，讓具一定知識水準的人能夠進到考試裡面，進而能夠進到護理師行列。"],["柯委員志恩：這就是你們所提出的策略，但是我還是必須要說，在前三次最大的會議當中，你們真的沒有問到基層人員，為了急診室爆診我們問了多少的團體、訪談了多少的醫護人員，他們真的還是很辛苦地告訴你，你們真的是劃錯重點，你不斷地希望有很多新人進來，但是，第一個，新人嚇都被嚇走了，而且目前來說，就像當初我們推行的長照設備一樣，教育部開放了非常多有關於長照類似的系所，但就是沒人要讀，因為我們整個醫療環境一點都不友善，所以你去優化也沒用，你提護病比也沒用，因為現在就是沒有人，所以你去哪裡比？你跟誰比？到底要找誰來唸？不管有沒有優化還是門檻，就是沒有人要來，因為大家已經被這個醫療環境給嚇死了，好不好？要嘛不是被操死就是被嚇死，這是目前我們第一線的問題！"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我還是跟委員報告，兩年前我們的在職人員有十八萬六千多人，現在是十九萬三千多人，還是有實質的進步，只是它的流動率應該是滿大的。"],["柯委員志恩：你現在的19萬是到什麼時候的數據？"],["卓院長榮泰：今年1月的時候。"],["柯委員志恩：今年1月，好，下次質詢的時候我們來看看19萬……"],["卓院長榮泰：四、五月畢業之後，應該還會有一波再增加起來。"],["柯委員志恩：院長，如果是這樣子的話，關於我們的醫護人員，不會馬偕副院長天天在簽離職書。這個東西真的也不用美化數字，如果這麼厲害的話，說實在醫護人員不能只靠他們對於病患、對於醫學的熱忱，這個不是做功德的，實質的薪資待遇，我還是強調、我說實在的，大家一致只講一句話，部長聽進去，基層的醫護人員就告訴你，雖然不能改變太多……"],["邱部長泰源：我們非常重視，尤其重視急重症醫護人員，會給他最好的待遇、會去加強……"],["柯委員志恩：錢直接匯到帳戶比較實在啦！部長，這最實在啦！真的考慮一下，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：會、會、會，我們會努力、會貫徹這樣的作法。"],["邱部長泰源：我們會努力。"],["柯委員志恩：真的啦！這麼多超徵，還是用一點給醫護人員，這才是實質的作法。"],["邱部長泰源：一直在努力。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["柯委員志恩：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝柯志恩委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長的備詢。","接下來我們請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":30,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-3","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1142402","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142402_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1142402_00001"}}}