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970.211, \"end\": 970.271, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 970.271, \"end\": 970.291, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 996.547, \"end\": 997.149, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 997.149, \"end\": 997.35, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 997.35, \"end\": 997.37, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:18,357 --> 00:00:24,878\n好我們開始下一位委員的詢答好主席\n\n2\n00:00:27,871 --> 00:00:42,308\n時間還沒有開始以前我希望權益問題在場同仁聆聽個別委員的意見我不希望我們跟院長在對話過程當中有所干擾因為\n\n3\n00:00:43,632 --> 00:00:56,923\n我認為這樣一不禮貌二對院長也不好意思所以我要拜託主席這一點給我們一個尊嚴好不好好謝謝林委員好請卓院長好我們請卓院長備詢林委員好謝謝院長我也知道因為你就任快一年\n\n4\n00:01:13,226 --> 00:01:30,673\n過去我認識的卓院長到現在我坦白跟你講我內心話必須要跟你請述一下我真的過去的卓榮泰院長跟現在卓榮泰院長\n\n5\n00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:51,673\n我有一點驚訝不太一樣但是感情一樣可是就事論事所以我的主題就很簡單今天你提出互議案當然是你的權利我們一定要去尊重但是我在這裡有一個最簡單的理由兩個\n\n6\n00:01:53,376 --> 00:02:13,732\n編列預算是行政院的權利吧是是吧但是審查預算也是立法院的權利吧對議決法案預算現在又恢復原來所認識的軸容態一向如此這個議題是沒有錯吧沒有錯那就謝謝院長了\n\n7\n00:02:21,311 --> 00:02:47,418\n我說實在的我就感覺到很奇怪史上最高的預算你們還是自愛然行可是你又講審查預算又是立法委員之前例那我就不曉得你今天提出這些自愛然行的復議案我真的想不透我想來想去我也不要跟你談細節我們就談觀念的問題\n\n8\n00:02:51,533 --> 00:03:00,858\n所以院長我說實在來接下來你可以看得出來這個請你公請你看一下從2027這次到2024都是民進黨蔡政府在執政可是節節上升的總預算\n\n9\n00:03:13,715 --> 00:03:24,161\n但是我們看到2005年我們的總預算刪掉以後還有兩兆九千四百億也就是歷屆最高\n\n10\n00:03:27,563 --> 00:03:51,178\n那當然你的理想你的報復或許要更多這個當然我們要尊重可是在我們立法院認為說該浪費的該不給的我們刪掉預算你剛才已經講立法委員刪掉預算是理所當然也是職責所在啊所以\n\n11\n00:03:51,926 --> 00:04:16,133\n一定我們說實在既然要談問題我也不想跟你吵架我也不想你回復的問題都是拐彎抹角賣!卓榮泰不是那種人但是我們針對問題來探討未來如何在這個整個總預算的部分如何去把它化解\n\n12\n00:04:16,789 --> 00:04:41,111\n因為這些總預算是你最高行政首長也是中華民國的行政院長這個你們要來執行有自愛難行當然程序可以走可是走完以後又怎麼樣呢還要再靠大法官的視線嗎這樣搞下去適合提同兩點簡單說明\n\n13\n00:04:43,257 --> 00:04:56,436\n因為稅入的增加我們才有稅出這麼多而且今年我們還有209億的稅劑剩餘所以我們沒有把稅入全部用完再來我們今年原編3兆1325億\n\n14\n00:04:59,107 --> 00:05:15,481\n因為其中有2,806億是去年沒有的新增計畫好如果扣掉這個2,806億我們就是跟去年預算差不多在三減我們就沒去年參賞但是你們都沒有在聽這一段啦你剛才的報告我都聽了\n\n15\n00:05:17,021 --> 00:05:44,272\n我都聽了你不需要再重複所以這句話最後就是為什麼是史上最高你到立法院來任何一句話我都會洗耳恭聽就是因為有這個才是史上最高那你有這個問題那我就感覺到很奇怪了我們現在來談大問題好接下來下一張我就感覺到很奇怪了民進黨在執政的時候他們可以刪預算那你們現在就講民眾黨跟國民黨不能刪預算我沒有這樣講過\n\n16\n00:05:46,874 --> 00:06:03,611\n合理的三強化那沒有關係你在這個部分你有你的看法但是立法院有立法院的立場啊不是嗎三過頭的自然難行我必須表達出來什麼叫三過頭嘛三過頭是你認知立法院的認知是完全不一樣喔一定\n\n17\n00:06:04,392 --> 00:06:28,651\n一定你的報告我看得出來啦不是刪減數超過預算數這怎麼辦啦好那沒有關係怎麼會沒有關係沒有院長我們接下來你刪了一百塊你刪了一百二十塊怎麼會沒有關係怎麼會怎麼會是這樣這是你們的認知有時候底下給你的資料根本好來接下來我們再來看這是事實啊來剛剛交通部林部長也說了嘛\n\n18\n00:06:30,332 --> 00:06:57,942\n我說實在話啦我說實在話院長說實在的啦我最不滿意的就是行政院帶頭造謠這個部分我沒有造謠好你沒有造謠好那現在所有的造謠就是無中生有囉來我簡單說幾句來錦霄的部分劉部長在這裡這完全沒有刪嘛你們也說我們刪一刪部長不要起來不要起來\n\n19\n00:06:59,366 --> 00:07:14,031\n另外潛艦的部分我想顧部長在委員會審查預算的時候講得很清楚這是凍結案根本沒有刪那你剛才業務費三足就是影響你聽我說完讓鄉村長者你在說我不是在打斷啊對不對你讓我講完\n\n20\n00:07:19,893 --> 00:07:36,847\n有就有沒有就沒有那事實上來講還做一些側翼做一些節能減電補助100億這完全造謠根本沒有這回事嘛另外統一花票你們現在領不到啦欸拜託好不好\n\n21\n00:07:38,028 --> 00:08:05,971\n這叫做法定預算從營業額提撥3%這根本也不可能嘛另外增加的部分另外講快一點新安新清安現在不補助啦這是根本也沒有這回事嘛一定你要聽我說這裡你們沒有你們就想沒有那是誰無中生有我們要把無中生有化為真正的原因今天的問題才可以解決的一定你聽我\n\n22\n00:08:07,152 --> 00:08:32,920\n對特定機關特定項目的統刪包括業務費那就影響這些業務的執行好那個等一下我還會談好不好等一下我會談所以啊像出國會這個出國會刪的是官員部分跟選手有什麼關係鬧得灰灰洋洋刪得十一億啦這些棒球選手等等這類的東西對立法院根本就是造謠抹黑嘛另外\n\n23\n00:08:33,760 --> 00:09:01,213\n我說實在的什麼數位部啦iPhone不能上市啦等等這些兒童的醫療根本都是惡意嘛所以我說實在還有很多啦還有很多因為時間的關係我特別要跟院長報告我就感覺到很奇怪我們不是很尊敬美國嗎我們美國關係不是很好嗎所以在這個部分你看看喔\n\n24\n00:09:02,413 --> 00:09:12,468\n川普當然還是有人講他不好但是你看看一上台他就馬上3減20%到30%的這些預算是他們\n\n25\n00:09:19,877 --> 00:09:34,911\n總統自己刪但是我就感覺到很奇怪我們預算給來歷年最高但是你們又說自愛難行美國可以為什麼我們不可以來一定你說一下\n\n26\n00:09:36,232 --> 00:09:59,559\n還是回到剛剛那句話所謂預算最高是因為有...我們對話才會有價值預算最高是因為有2,806億的新增預算這去年是沒有的如果扣掉這些的話預算沒有超過太多跟去年是一樣的再經過一兩千億的刪減我們今年的預算就會比去年實質上低可是剛才我跟你講一定有剛才我們說過\n\n27\n00:10:01,707 --> 00:10:19,910\n胡坤祺總召他把所有各部會增內的預算是有的喔但是你現在自愛然行就是新增預算的部分嘛因為各部會都有新增預算在裡面那我就感覺到很奇怪啦我就感覺到很奇怪啊為什麼在政黨協商的時候\n\n28\n00:10:20,330 --> 00:10:40,505\n以我個人所了解民意代表我也當了很久三億算是每一個民意代表的值錢我們是不可以給億算但是可以三億算至於幅度多高那這個就是要什麼透過政黨協商的當中把理由把困難講出來\n\n29\n00:10:42,406 --> 00:11:04,481\n這問題就會解決啊但這次通山並沒有協商而是表決啊是嘛那為什麼不協商嘛韓院長講快一點我雖然不是黨裡面幹部那你們有沒有協商嘛朝野協商好了之後行政院才參與之後怎麼會協商好我跟你講一定我不要跟你爭論你把那個協商紀錄我拜託我們副院長\n\n30\n00:11:05,402 --> 00:11:34,640\n拿出這些協商結論或者協商的經過讓你去看一看所以你不要只有道聽途說要去親眼目睹一定你是中華民國的行政一定最高潛力機構所有預算所有部會的預算是由你來由你來做溝通跟說明一定這就我給你謝謝委員的建議那委員是不是同意復議之後我們重新協商\n\n31\n00:11:35,959 --> 00:11:43,722\n我個人當然是贊成啊所以我後面就很簡單但是這些東西是我個人的看法我認為我還要給你一個良心的建議阿扁總統講的話你也認識嘛\n\n32\n00:11:55,202 --> 00:12:17,597\n不一定全部聽他的可是他講的話有時候是有價值感的所以我要建議包容不同意見不要對抗不要對立這個我想你同意吧同意還有天下之大不能獨佔應由分享焉焉香罷也就是罷免何時了\n\n33\n00:12:19,281 --> 00:12:37,850\n我跟你講他講的很有理由有些言論我還是不太贊同他可是這一次他講這些話我認為是當今行政院跟立法院應該如何去化解非常好的建言所以我良心建議卓院長你應該要參考跟賴總統報告\n\n34\n00:12:40,931 --> 00:12:55,981\n因為我擔心的就是賴總統以前在台南市長的時候我最擔心的就是因為他也跟議會處不好所以這個部分左院長你要用一點心你是要為台灣人民來做事\n\n35\n00:12:56,761 --> 00:13:23,964\n不是只有服務一個賴總統那賴總統有時候給他下錢不能上打或許老百姓的心聲有些是真的沒有辦法下錢上打產生這種誤解都還來得及啊你們執政只有一年啊雖然你們民進黨已經執政八年快要九年的但是亡羊補牢還是有機會啊所以要改變策略啦\n\n36\n00:13:24,665 --> 00:13:53,001\n但我是非常理性的人我就覺得我們為什麼一定要去某個在野黨為什麼不好好坐下來談這些是非常重要不是每一樣東西雖然法定有授權你自愛然行或者那個釋憲的這種種之權利但是說實在啦富裕富到最後還是一個結論嘛要解決問題不是嗎所以一定\n\n37\n00:13:54,022 --> 00:14:17,195\n今天當然我給你講話時間比較少但是我是以重心長在這裡我還是要建議院長協商才能前進對抗注定要致死俄國所以我要特別給院長一個建議溝通協商追加預算\n\n38\n00:14:18,271 --> 00:14:44,193\n了解凍結這等等都是啊你們現在就很簡單欸凍結就是三億算不對啦不對啦凍結當然你如果說在大會那凍結很多啊有委員會就可以解凍的啊大會解凍這兩者之中雖然大會解凍有所困難但是有很多事情是要靠溝通的欸\n\n39\n00:14:45,254 --> 00:15:04,453\n是要靠溝通所以我要坦白跟院長講其實我每次在看政黨協商過去解凍最後一筆從98年到113年超過九成都是在11月跟12月那你就沒有政黨協商我跟你講\n\n40\n00:15:06,495 --> 00:15:20,261\n委員會你去看看所有部長在這裡委員會在審查預算根本是理性有時候部長談出他的苦衷在哪邊最後放的機會都很大以我個人來講\n\n41\n00:15:21,582 --> 00:15:36,256\n我們交通委員會部長在這裡我們有刪到什麼預算沒有啊他自愛然行有困難他講出來15個委員大家都贊成不分黨派啊我管你什麼民進黨管你什麼國民黨大家都\n\n42\n00:15:37,637 --> 00:15:57,706\n認為部長講的自愛燃省真正需要的是在這裡那我就感覺到很奇怪所有的問題為什麼沒有辦法解決會製造混亂因為我們也不知道最後會有一個通案刪減全部指向特定機關這個也要怪怪主計長啦過去歷屆來講本來就是如何調整如何調整貴黨提出的那個通案刪減裡面的項目特定機關特定項目那個是可以調的\n\n43\n00:16:06,089 --> 00:16:10,291\n人家大會都講得很清楚你們主計處又不跟立法院所以有...\n\n44\n00:16:36,547 --> 00:16:37,370\n好謝謝林委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n18357\t24878\t好 我們開始下一位委員的詢答好 主席\n27871\t42308\t時間還沒有開始以前我希望權益問題在場同仁聆聽個別委員的意見我不希望我們跟院長在對話過程當中有所干擾因為\n43632\t56923\t我認為這樣一不禮貌二對院長也不好意思所以我要拜託主席這一點給我們一個尊嚴好不好好謝謝林委員好請卓院長好我們請卓院長備詢林委員好謝謝院長我也知道因為你就任快一年\n73226\t90673\t過去我認識的卓院長到現在我坦白跟你講我內心話必須要跟你請述一下我真的過去的卓榮泰院長跟現在卓榮泰院長\n91840\t111673\t我有一點驚訝不太一樣但是感情一樣可是就事論事所以我的主題就很簡單今天你提出互議案當然是你的權利我們一定要去尊重但是我在這裡有一個最簡單的理由兩個\n113376\t133732\t編列預算是行政院的權利吧是是吧但是審查預算也是立法院的權利吧對 議決法案預算現在又恢復原來所認識的軸容態一向如此這個議題是沒有錯吧沒有錯那就謝謝院長了\n141311\t167418\t我說實在的我就感覺到很奇怪史上最高的預算你們還是自愛然行可是你又講審查預算又是立法委員之前例那我就不曉得你今天提出這些自愛然行的復議案我真的想不透我想來想去我也不要跟你談細節我們就談觀念的問題\n171533\t180858\t所以院長我說實在來接下來你可以看得出來這個請你公請你看一下從2027這次到2024都是民進黨蔡政府在執政可是節節上升的總預算\n193715\t204161\t但是我們看到2005年我們的總預算刪掉以後還有兩兆九千四百億也就是歷屆最高\n207563\t231178\t那當然你的理想你的報復或許要更多這個當然我們要尊重可是在我們立法院認為說該浪費的該不給的我們刪掉預算你剛才已經講立法委員刪掉預算是理所當然也是職責所在啊所以\n231926\t256133\t一定 我們說實在 既然要談問題 我也不想跟你吵架我也不想你回復的問題 都是拐彎抹角 賣!卓榮泰不是那種人 但是我們針對問題來探討未來如何在這個 整個總預算的部分 如何去把它化解\n256789\t281111\t因為這些總預算是你最高行政首長也是中華民國的行政院長這個你們要來執行有自愛難行當然程序可以走可是走完以後又怎麼樣呢還要再靠大法官的視線嗎這樣搞下去適合提同兩點簡單說明\n283257\t296436\t因為稅入的增加我們才有稅出這麼多而且今年我們還有209億的稅劑剩餘所以我們沒有把稅入全部用完再來我們今年原編3兆1325億\n299107\t315481\t因為其中有2,806億是去年沒有的新增計畫好 如果扣掉這個2,806億我們就是跟去年預算差不多在三減我們就沒去年參賞但是你們都沒有在聽這一段啦你剛才的報告我都聽了\n317021\t344272\t我都聽了你不需要再重複所以這句話最後就是為什麼是史上最高你到立法院來任何一句話我都會洗耳恭聽就是因為有這個才是史上最高那你有這個問題那我就感覺到很奇怪了我們現在來談大問題好 接下來下一張我就感覺到很奇怪了民進黨在執政的時候他們可以刪預算那你們現在就講民眾黨跟國民黨不能刪預算我沒有這樣講過\n346874\t363611\t合理的三強化 那沒有關係 你在這個部分你有你的看法但是立法院有立法院的立場啊 不是嗎三過頭的自然難行我必須表達出來什麼叫三過頭嘛 三過頭是你認知立法院的認知是完全不一樣喔 一定\n364392\t388651\t一定你的報告我看得出來啦不是 刪減數超過預算數這怎麼辦啦好 那沒有關係怎麼會沒有關係沒有 院長我們接下來你刪了一百塊 你刪了一百二十塊怎麼會沒有關係怎麼會 怎麼會是這樣這是你們的認知有時候底下給你的資料根本好 來接下來我們再來看這是事實啊 來剛剛交通部林部長也說了嘛\n390332\t417942\t我說實在話啦我說實在話 院長說實在的啦我最不滿意的就是行政院帶頭造謠這個部分我沒有造謠好 你沒有造謠好 那現在所有的造謠就是無中生有囉來 我簡單說幾句來 錦霄的部分劉部長在這裡這完全沒有刪嘛你們也說 我們刪一刪部長不要起來 不要起來\n419366\t434031\t另外 潛艦的部分 我想顧部長在委員會審查預算的時候講得很清楚這是凍結案 根本沒有刪那你剛才 業務費三足就是影響你聽我說完 讓鄉村長者 你在說我 不是在打斷啊 對不對 你讓我講完\n439893\t456847\t有就有 沒有就沒有那事實上來講還做一些 側翼做一些節能減電補助100億這完全造謠 根本沒有這回事嘛另外統一花票 你們現在領不到啦欸 拜託好不好\n458028\t485971\t這叫做法定預算從營業額提撥3%這根本也不可能嘛另外增加的部分另外 講快一點新安 新清安現在不補助啦這是根本也沒有這回事嘛一定 你要聽我說這裡你們沒有 你們就想沒有那是誰無中生有我們要把無中生有化為真正的原因今天的問題才可以解決的一定 你聽我\n487152\t512920\t對特定機關特定項目的統刪包括業務費那就影響這些業務的執行好 那個等一下我還會談好不好 等一下我會談所以啊 像出國會這個出國會刪的是官員部分跟選手有什麼關係鬧得灰灰洋洋 刪得十一億啦這些棒球選手等等這類的東西對立法院根本就是造謠抹黑嘛另外\n513760\t541213\t我說實在的 什麼數位部啦 iPhone不能上市啦等等這些 兒童的醫療 根本都是惡意嘛所以我說實在 還有很多啦 還有很多因為時間的關係 我特別要跟院長報告我就感覺到很奇怪 我們不是很尊敬美國嗎我們美國關係不是很好嗎所以在這個部分 你看看喔\n542413\t552468\t川普當然還是有人講他不好但是你看看一上台他就馬上3減20%到30%的這些預算是他們\n559877\t574911\t總統自己刪但是我就感覺到很奇怪我們預算給來歷年最高但是你們又說自愛難行美國可以 為什麼我們不可以來 一定 你說一下\n576232\t599559\t還是回到剛剛那句話所謂預算最高是因為有...我們對話才會有價值預算最高是因為有2,806億的新增預算這去年是沒有的如果扣掉這些的話預算沒有超過太多 跟去年是一樣的再經過一兩千億的刪減我們今年的預算就會比去年實質上低可是剛才 我跟你講 一定有 剛才我們說過\n601707\t619910\t胡坤祺總召他把所有各部會 增內的預算是有的喔但是你現在自愛然行就是新增預算的部分嘛因為各部會都有新增預算在裡面那我就感覺到很奇怪啦我就感覺到很奇怪啊為什麼在政黨協商的時候\n620330\t640505\t以我個人所了解 民意代表我也當了很久三億算是每一個民意代表的值錢我們是不可以給億算 但是可以三億算至於幅度多高 那這個就是要什麼透過政黨協商的當中 把理由 把困難講出來\n642406\t664481\t這問題就會解決啊但這次通山並沒有協商而是表決啊是嘛 那為什麼不協商嘛韓院長 講快一點我雖然不是黨裡面幹部那你們有沒有協商嘛朝野協商好了之後 行政院才參與之後怎麼會協商好我跟你講 一定 我不要跟你爭論你把那個協商紀錄 我拜託我們副院長\n665402\t694640\t拿出這些協商結論或者協商的經過讓你去看一看所以你不要只有道聽途說要去親眼目睹一定你是中華民國的行政一定最高潛力機構所有預算所有部會的預算是由你來由你來做溝通跟說明一定這就我給你謝謝委員的建議那委員是不是同意復議之後我們重新協商\n695959\t703722\t我個人當然是贊成啊所以我後面就很簡單但是這些東西是我個人的看法我認為我還要給你一個良心的建議阿扁總統講的話你也認識嘛\n715202\t737597\t不一定全部聽他的 可是他講的話有時候是有價值感的所以我要建議包容不同意見 不要對抗 不要對立這個我想你同意吧 同意還有天下之大不能獨佔 應由分享焉焉香罷 也就是罷免 何時了\n739281\t757850\t我跟你講他講的很有理由有些言論我還是不太贊同他可是這一次他講這些話我認為是當今行政院跟立法院應該如何去化解非常好的建言所以我良心建議卓院長你應該要參考跟賴總統報告\n760931\t775981\t因為我擔心的就是賴總統以前在台南市長的時候我最擔心的就是因為他也跟議會處不好所以這個部分 左院長你要用一點心你是要為台灣人民來做事\n776761\t803964\t不是只有服務一個賴總統那賴總統有時候給他下錢不能上打或許老百姓的心聲有些是真的沒有辦法下錢上打產生這種誤解都還來得及啊你們執政只有一年啊雖然你們民進黨已經執政八年快要九年的但是亡羊補牢還是有機會啊所以要改變策略啦\n804665\t833001\t但我是非常理性的人我就覺得我們為什麼一定要去某個在野黨為什麼不好好坐下來談這些是非常重要不是每一樣東西雖然法定有授權你自愛然行或者那個釋憲的這種種之權利但是說實在啦富裕富到最後還是一個結論嘛要解決問題不是嗎所以一定\n834022\t857195\t今天當然我給你講話時間比較少但是我是以重心長在這裡我還是要建議院長協商才能前進對抗注定要致死俄國所以我要特別給院長一個建議溝通協商追加預算\n858271\t884193\t了解 凍結 這等等都是啊你們現在就很簡單 欸凍結就是三億算不對啦 不對啦凍結當然你如果說在大會 那凍結很多啊有委員會就可以解凍的啊大會解凍 這兩者之中雖然大會解凍有所困難但是有很多事情是要靠溝通的欸\n885254\t904453\t是要靠溝通 所以我要坦白跟院長講其實我每次在看政黨協商過去解凍最後一筆 從98年到113年超過九成都是在11月跟12月那你就沒有政黨協商 我跟你講\n906495\t920261\t委員會你去看看所有部長在這裡委員會在審查預算根本是理性有時候部長談出他的苦衷在哪邊最後放的機會都很大以我個人來講\n921582\t936256\t我們交通委員會部長在這裡我們有刪到什麼預算 沒有啊他自愛然行有困難他講出來15個委員大家都贊成不分黨派啊我管你什麼民進黨管你什麼國民黨大家都\n937637\t957706\t認為部長講的自愛燃省真正需要的是在這裡那我就感覺到很奇怪所有的問題為什麼沒有辦法解決會製造混亂因為我們也不知道最後會有一個通案刪減全部指向特定機關這個也要怪怪主計長啦過去歷屆來講本來就是如何調整如何調整貴黨提出的那個通案刪減裡面的項目特定機關特定項目那個是可以調的\n966089\t970291\t人家大會都講得很清楚你們主計處又不跟立法院所以有...\n996547\t997370\t好 謝謝林委員\n","txt":"好 我們開始下一位委員的詢答好 主席\n時間還沒有開始以前我希望權益問題在場同仁聆聽個別委員的意見我不希望我們跟院長在對話過程當中有所干擾因為\n我認為這樣一不禮貌二對院長也不好意思所以我要拜託主席這一點給我們一個尊嚴好不好好謝謝林委員好請卓院長好我們請卓院長備詢林委員好謝謝院長我也知道因為你就任快一年\n過去我認識的卓院長到現在我坦白跟你講我內心話必須要跟你請述一下我真的過去的卓榮泰院長跟現在卓榮泰院長\n我有一點驚訝不太一樣但是感情一樣可是就事論事所以我的主題就很簡單今天你提出互議案當然是你的權利我們一定要去尊重但是我在這裡有一個最簡單的理由兩個\n編列預算是行政院的權利吧是是吧但是審查預算也是立法院的權利吧對 議決法案預算現在又恢復原來所認識的軸容態一向如此這個議題是沒有錯吧沒有錯那就謝謝院長了\n我說實在的我就感覺到很奇怪史上最高的預算你們還是自愛然行可是你又講審查預算又是立法委員之前例那我就不曉得你今天提出這些自愛然行的復議案我真的想不透我想來想去我也不要跟你談細節我們就談觀念的問題\n所以院長我說實在來接下來你可以看得出來這個請你公請你看一下從2027這次到2024都是民進黨蔡政府在執政可是節節上升的總預算\n但是我們看到2005年我們的總預算刪掉以後還有兩兆九千四百億也就是歷屆最高\n那當然你的理想你的報復或許要更多這個當然我們要尊重可是在我們立法院認為說該浪費的該不給的我們刪掉預算你剛才已經講立法委員刪掉預算是理所當然也是職責所在啊所以\n一定 我們說實在 既然要談問題 我也不想跟你吵架我也不想你回復的問題 都是拐彎抹角 賣!卓榮泰不是那種人 但是我們針對問題來探討未來如何在這個 整個總預算的部分 如何去把它化解\n因為這些總預算是你最高行政首長也是中華民國的行政院長這個你們要來執行有自愛難行當然程序可以走可是走完以後又怎麼樣呢還要再靠大法官的視線嗎這樣搞下去適合提同兩點簡單說明\n因為稅入的增加我們才有稅出這麼多而且今年我們還有209億的稅劑剩餘所以我們沒有把稅入全部用完再來我們今年原編3兆1325億\n因為其中有2,806億是去年沒有的新增計畫好 如果扣掉這個2,806億我們就是跟去年預算差不多在三減我們就沒去年參賞但是你們都沒有在聽這一段啦你剛才的報告我都聽了\n我都聽了你不需要再重複所以這句話最後就是為什麼是史上最高你到立法院來任何一句話我都會洗耳恭聽就是因為有這個才是史上最高那你有這個問題那我就感覺到很奇怪了我們現在來談大問題好 接下來下一張我就感覺到很奇怪了民進黨在執政的時候他們可以刪預算那你們現在就講民眾黨跟國民黨不能刪預算我沒有這樣講過\n合理的三強化 那沒有關係 你在這個部分你有你的看法但是立法院有立法院的立場啊 不是嗎三過頭的自然難行我必須表達出來什麼叫三過頭嘛 三過頭是你認知立法院的認知是完全不一樣喔 一定\n一定你的報告我看得出來啦不是 刪減數超過預算數這怎麼辦啦好 那沒有關係怎麼會沒有關係沒有 院長我們接下來你刪了一百塊 你刪了一百二十塊怎麼會沒有關係怎麼會 怎麼會是這樣這是你們的認知有時候底下給你的資料根本好 來接下來我們再來看這是事實啊 來剛剛交通部林部長也說了嘛\n我說實在話啦我說實在話 院長說實在的啦我最不滿意的就是行政院帶頭造謠這個部分我沒有造謠好 你沒有造謠好 那現在所有的造謠就是無中生有囉來 我簡單說幾句來 錦霄的部分劉部長在這裡這完全沒有刪嘛你們也說 我們刪一刪部長不要起來 不要起來\n另外 潛艦的部分 我想顧部長在委員會審查預算的時候講得很清楚這是凍結案 根本沒有刪那你剛才 業務費三足就是影響你聽我說完 讓鄉村長者 你在說我 不是在打斷啊 對不對 你讓我講完\n有就有 沒有就沒有那事實上來講還做一些 側翼做一些節能減電補助100億這完全造謠 根本沒有這回事嘛另外統一花票 你們現在領不到啦欸 拜託好不好\n這叫做法定預算從營業額提撥3%這根本也不可能嘛另外增加的部分另外 講快一點新安 新清安現在不補助啦這是根本也沒有這回事嘛一定 你要聽我說這裡你們沒有 你們就想沒有那是誰無中生有我們要把無中生有化為真正的原因今天的問題才可以解決的一定 你聽我\n對特定機關特定項目的統刪包括業務費那就影響這些業務的執行好 那個等一下我還會談好不好 等一下我會談所以啊 像出國會這個出國會刪的是官員部分跟選手有什麼關係鬧得灰灰洋洋 刪得十一億啦這些棒球選手等等這類的東西對立法院根本就是造謠抹黑嘛另外\n我說實在的 什麼數位部啦 iPhone不能上市啦等等這些 兒童的醫療 根本都是惡意嘛所以我說實在 還有很多啦 還有很多因為時間的關係 我特別要跟院長報告我就感覺到很奇怪 我們不是很尊敬美國嗎我們美國關係不是很好嗎所以在這個部分 你看看喔\n川普當然還是有人講他不好但是你看看一上台他就馬上3減20%到30%的這些預算是他們\n總統自己刪但是我就感覺到很奇怪我們預算給來歷年最高但是你們又說自愛難行美國可以 為什麼我們不可以來 一定 你說一下\n還是回到剛剛那句話所謂預算最高是因為有...我們對話才會有價值預算最高是因為有2,806億的新增預算這去年是沒有的如果扣掉這些的話預算沒有超過太多 跟去年是一樣的再經過一兩千億的刪減我們今年的預算就會比去年實質上低可是剛才 我跟你講 一定有 剛才我們說過\n胡坤祺總召他把所有各部會 增內的預算是有的喔但是你現在自愛然行就是新增預算的部分嘛因為各部會都有新增預算在裡面那我就感覺到很奇怪啦我就感覺到很奇怪啊為什麼在政黨協商的時候\n以我個人所了解 民意代表我也當了很久三億算是每一個民意代表的值錢我們是不可以給億算 但是可以三億算至於幅度多高 那這個就是要什麼透過政黨協商的當中 把理由 把困難講出來\n這問題就會解決啊但這次通山並沒有協商而是表決啊是嘛 那為什麼不協商嘛韓院長 講快一點我雖然不是黨裡面幹部那你們有沒有協商嘛朝野協商好了之後 行政院才參與之後怎麼會協商好我跟你講 一定 我不要跟你爭論你把那個協商紀錄 我拜託我們副院長\n拿出這些協商結論或者協商的經過讓你去看一看所以你不要只有道聽途說要去親眼目睹一定你是中華民國的行政一定最高潛力機構所有預算所有部會的預算是由你來由你來做溝通跟說明一定這就我給你謝謝委員的建議那委員是不是同意復議之後我們重新協商\n我個人當然是贊成啊所以我後面就很簡單但是這些東西是我個人的看法我認為我還要給你一個良心的建議阿扁總統講的話你也認識嘛\n不一定全部聽他的 可是他講的話有時候是有價值感的所以我要建議包容不同意見 不要對抗 不要對立這個我想你同意吧 同意還有天下之大不能獨佔 應由分享焉焉香罷 也就是罷免 何時了\n我跟你講他講的很有理由有些言論我還是不太贊同他可是這一次他講這些話我認為是當今行政院跟立法院應該如何去化解非常好的建言所以我良心建議卓院長你應該要參考跟賴總統報告\n因為我擔心的就是賴總統以前在台南市長的時候我最擔心的就是因為他也跟議會處不好所以這個部分 左院長你要用一點心你是要為台灣人民來做事\n不是只有服務一個賴總統那賴總統有時候給他下錢不能上打或許老百姓的心聲有些是真的沒有辦法下錢上打產生這種誤解都還來得及啊你們執政只有一年啊雖然你們民進黨已經執政八年快要九年的但是亡羊補牢還是有機會啊所以要改變策略啦\n但我是非常理性的人我就覺得我們為什麼一定要去某個在野黨為什麼不好好坐下來談這些是非常重要不是每一樣東西雖然法定有授權你自愛然行或者那個釋憲的這種種之權利但是說實在啦富裕富到最後還是一個結論嘛要解決問題不是嗎所以一定\n今天當然我給你講話時間比較少但是我是以重心長在這裡我還是要建議院長協商才能前進對抗注定要致死俄國所以我要特別給院長一個建議溝通協商追加預算\n了解 凍結 這等等都是啊你們現在就很簡單 欸凍結就是三億算不對啦 不對啦凍結當然你如果說在大會 那凍結很多啊有委員會就可以解凍的啊大會解凍 這兩者之中雖然大會解凍有所困難但是有很多事情是要靠溝通的欸\n是要靠溝通 所以我要坦白跟院長講其實我每次在看政黨協商過去解凍最後一筆 從98年到113年超過九成都是在11月跟12月那你就沒有政黨協商 我跟你講\n委員會你去看看所有部長在這裡委員會在審查預算根本是理性有時候部長談出他的苦衷在哪邊最後放的機會都很大以我個人來講\n我們交通委員會部長在這裡我們有刪到什麼預算 沒有啊他自愛然行有困難他講出來15個委員大家都贊成不分黨派啊我管你什麼民進黨管你什麼國民黨大家都\n認為部長講的自愛燃省真正需要的是在這裡那我就感覺到很奇怪所有的問題為什麼沒有辦法解決會製造混亂因為我們也不知道最後會有一個通案刪減全部指向特定機關這個也要怪怪主計長啦過去歷屆來講本來就是如何調整如何調整貴黨提出的那個通案刪減裡面的項目特定機關特定項目那個是可以調的\n人家大會都講得很清楚你們主計處又不跟立法院所以有...\n好 謝謝林委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:18.357 --> 00:24.878\n好我們開始下一位委員的詢答好主席\n\n00:27.871 --> 00:42.308\n時間還沒有開始以前我希望權益問題在場同仁聆聽個別委員的意見我不希望我們跟院長在對話過程當中有所干擾因為\n\n00:43.632 --> 00:56.923\n我認為這樣一不禮貌二對院長也不好意思所以我要拜託主席這一點給我們一個尊嚴好不好好謝謝林委員好請卓院長好我們請卓院長備詢林委員好謝謝院長我也知道因為你就任快一年\n\n01:13.226 --> 01:30.673\n過去我認識的卓院長到現在我坦白跟你講我內心話必須要跟你請述一下我真的過去的卓榮泰院長跟現在卓榮泰院長\n\n01:31.840 --> 01:51.673\n我有一點驚訝不太一樣但是感情一樣可是就事論事所以我的主題就很簡單今天你提出互議案當然是你的權利我們一定要去尊重但是我在這裡有一個最簡單的理由兩個\n\n01:53.376 --> 02:13.732\n編列預算是行政院的權利吧是是吧但是審查預算也是立法院的權利吧對議決法案預算現在又恢復原來所認識的軸容態一向如此這個議題是沒有錯吧沒有錯那就謝謝院長了\n\n02:21.311 --> 02:47.418\n我說實在的我就感覺到很奇怪史上最高的預算你們還是自愛然行可是你又講審查預算又是立法委員之前例那我就不曉得你今天提出這些自愛然行的復議案我真的想不透我想來想去我也不要跟你談細節我們就談觀念的問題\n\n02:51.533 --> 03:00.858\n所以院長我說實在來接下來你可以看得出來這個請你公請你看一下從2027這次到2024都是民進黨蔡政府在執政可是節節上升的總預算\n\n03:13.715 --> 03:24.161\n但是我們看到2005年我們的總預算刪掉以後還有兩兆九千四百億也就是歷屆最高\n\n03:27.563 --> 03:51.178\n那當然你的理想你的報復或許要更多這個當然我們要尊重可是在我們立法院認為說該浪費的該不給的我們刪掉預算你剛才已經講立法委員刪掉預算是理所當然也是職責所在啊所以\n\n03:51.926 --> 04:16.133\n一定我們說實在既然要談問題我也不想跟你吵架我也不想你回復的問題都是拐彎抹角賣!卓榮泰不是那種人但是我們針對問題來探討未來如何在這個整個總預算的部分如何去把它化解\n\n04:16.789 --> 04:41.111\n因為這些總預算是你最高行政首長也是中華民國的行政院長這個你們要來執行有自愛難行當然程序可以走可是走完以後又怎麼樣呢還要再靠大法官的視線嗎這樣搞下去適合提同兩點簡單說明\n\n04:43.257 --> 04:56.436\n因為稅入的增加我們才有稅出這麼多而且今年我們還有209億的稅劑剩餘所以我們沒有把稅入全部用完再來我們今年原編3兆1325億\n\n04:59.107 --> 05:15.481\n因為其中有2,806億是去年沒有的新增計畫好如果扣掉這個2,806億我們就是跟去年預算差不多在三減我們就沒去年參賞但是你們都沒有在聽這一段啦你剛才的報告我都聽了\n\n05:17.021 --> 05:44.272\n我都聽了你不需要再重複所以這句話最後就是為什麼是史上最高你到立法院來任何一句話我都會洗耳恭聽就是因為有這個才是史上最高那你有這個問題那我就感覺到很奇怪了我們現在來談大問題好接下來下一張我就感覺到很奇怪了民進黨在執政的時候他們可以刪預算那你們現在就講民眾黨跟國民黨不能刪預算我沒有這樣講過\n\n05:46.874 --> 06:03.611\n合理的三強化那沒有關係你在這個部分你有你的看法但是立法院有立法院的立場啊不是嗎三過頭的自然難行我必須表達出來什麼叫三過頭嘛三過頭是你認知立法院的認知是完全不一樣喔一定\n\n06:04.392 --> 06:28.651\n一定你的報告我看得出來啦不是刪減數超過預算數這怎麼辦啦好那沒有關係怎麼會沒有關係沒有院長我們接下來你刪了一百塊你刪了一百二十塊怎麼會沒有關係怎麼會怎麼會是這樣這是你們的認知有時候底下給你的資料根本好來接下來我們再來看這是事實啊來剛剛交通部林部長也說了嘛\n\n06:30.332 --> 06:57.942\n我說實在話啦我說實在話院長說實在的啦我最不滿意的就是行政院帶頭造謠這個部分我沒有造謠好你沒有造謠好那現在所有的造謠就是無中生有囉來我簡單說幾句來錦霄的部分劉部長在這裡這完全沒有刪嘛你們也說我們刪一刪部長不要起來不要起來\n\n06:59.366 --> 07:14.031\n另外潛艦的部分我想顧部長在委員會審查預算的時候講得很清楚這是凍結案根本沒有刪那你剛才業務費三足就是影響你聽我說完讓鄉村長者你在說我不是在打斷啊對不對你讓我講完\n\n07:19.893 --> 07:36.847\n有就有沒有就沒有那事實上來講還做一些側翼做一些節能減電補助100億這完全造謠根本沒有這回事嘛另外統一花票你們現在領不到啦欸拜託好不好\n\n07:38.028 --> 08:05.971\n這叫做法定預算從營業額提撥3%這根本也不可能嘛另外增加的部分另外講快一點新安新清安現在不補助啦這是根本也沒有這回事嘛一定你要聽我說這裡你們沒有你們就想沒有那是誰無中生有我們要把無中生有化為真正的原因今天的問題才可以解決的一定你聽我\n\n08:07.152 --> 08:32.920\n對特定機關特定項目的統刪包括業務費那就影響這些業務的執行好那個等一下我還會談好不好等一下我會談所以啊像出國會這個出國會刪的是官員部分跟選手有什麼關係鬧得灰灰洋洋刪得十一億啦這些棒球選手等等這類的東西對立法院根本就是造謠抹黑嘛另外\n\n08:33.760 --> 09:01.213\n我說實在的什麼數位部啦iPhone不能上市啦等等這些兒童的醫療根本都是惡意嘛所以我說實在還有很多啦還有很多因為時間的關係我特別要跟院長報告我就感覺到很奇怪我們不是很尊敬美國嗎我們美國關係不是很好嗎所以在這個部分你看看喔\n\n09:02.413 --> 09:12.468\n川普當然還是有人講他不好但是你看看一上台他就馬上3減20%到30%的這些預算是他們\n\n09:19.877 --> 09:34.911\n總統自己刪但是我就感覺到很奇怪我們預算給來歷年最高但是你們又說自愛難行美國可以為什麼我們不可以來一定你說一下\n\n09:36.232 --> 09:59.559\n還是回到剛剛那句話所謂預算最高是因為有...我們對話才會有價值預算最高是因為有2,806億的新增預算這去年是沒有的如果扣掉這些的話預算沒有超過太多跟去年是一樣的再經過一兩千億的刪減我們今年的預算就會比去年實質上低可是剛才我跟你講一定有剛才我們說過\n\n10:01.707 --> 10:19.910\n胡坤祺總召他把所有各部會增內的預算是有的喔但是你現在自愛然行就是新增預算的部分嘛因為各部會都有新增預算在裡面那我就感覺到很奇怪啦我就感覺到很奇怪啊為什麼在政黨協商的時候\n\n10:20.330 --> 10:40.505\n以我個人所了解民意代表我也當了很久三億算是每一個民意代表的值錢我們是不可以給億算但是可以三億算至於幅度多高那這個就是要什麼透過政黨協商的當中把理由把困難講出來\n\n10:42.406 --> 11:04.481\n這問題就會解決啊但這次通山並沒有協商而是表決啊是嘛那為什麼不協商嘛韓院長講快一點我雖然不是黨裡面幹部那你們有沒有協商嘛朝野協商好了之後行政院才參與之後怎麼會協商好我跟你講一定我不要跟你爭論你把那個協商紀錄我拜託我們副院長\n\n11:05.402 --> 11:34.640\n拿出這些協商結論或者協商的經過讓你去看一看所以你不要只有道聽途說要去親眼目睹一定你是中華民國的行政一定最高潛力機構所有預算所有部會的預算是由你來由你來做溝通跟說明一定這就我給你謝謝委員的建議那委員是不是同意復議之後我們重新協商\n\n11:35.959 --> 11:43.722\n我個人當然是贊成啊所以我後面就很簡單但是這些東西是我個人的看法我認為我還要給你一個良心的建議阿扁總統講的話你也認識嘛\n\n11:55.202 --> 12:17.597\n不一定全部聽他的可是他講的話有時候是有價值感的所以我要建議包容不同意見不要對抗不要對立這個我想你同意吧同意還有天下之大不能獨佔應由分享焉焉香罷也就是罷免何時了\n\n12:19.281 --> 12:37.850\n我跟你講他講的很有理由有些言論我還是不太贊同他可是這一次他講這些話我認為是當今行政院跟立法院應該如何去化解非常好的建言所以我良心建議卓院長你應該要參考跟賴總統報告\n\n12:40.931 --> 12:55.981\n因為我擔心的就是賴總統以前在台南市長的時候我最擔心的就是因為他也跟議會處不好所以這個部分左院長你要用一點心你是要為台灣人民來做事\n\n12:56.761 --> 13:23.964\n不是只有服務一個賴總統那賴總統有時候給他下錢不能上打或許老百姓的心聲有些是真的沒有辦法下錢上打產生這種誤解都還來得及啊你們執政只有一年啊雖然你們民進黨已經執政八年快要九年的但是亡羊補牢還是有機會啊所以要改變策略啦\n\n13:24.665 --> 13:53.001\n但我是非常理性的人我就覺得我們為什麼一定要去某個在野黨為什麼不好好坐下來談這些是非常重要不是每一樣東西雖然法定有授權你自愛然行或者那個釋憲的這種種之權利但是說實在啦富裕富到最後還是一個結論嘛要解決問題不是嗎所以一定\n\n13:54.022 --> 14:17.195\n今天當然我給你講話時間比較少但是我是以重心長在這裡我還是要建議院長協商才能前進對抗注定要致死俄國所以我要特別給院長一個建議溝通協商追加預算\n\n14:18.271 --> 14:44.193\n了解凍結這等等都是啊你們現在就很簡單欸凍結就是三億算不對啦不對啦凍結當然你如果說在大會那凍結很多啊有委員會就可以解凍的啊大會解凍這兩者之中雖然大會解凍有所困難但是有很多事情是要靠溝通的欸\n\n14:45.254 --> 15:04.453\n是要靠溝通所以我要坦白跟院長講其實我每次在看政黨協商過去解凍最後一筆從98年到113年超過九成都是在11月跟12月那你就沒有政黨協商我跟你講\n\n15:06.495 --> 15:20.261\n委員會你去看看所有部長在這裡委員會在審查預算根本是理性有時候部長談出他的苦衷在哪邊最後放的機會都很大以我個人來講\n\n15:21.582 --> 15:36.256\n我們交通委員會部長在這裡我們有刪到什麼預算沒有啊他自愛然行有困難他講出來15個委員大家都贊成不分黨派啊我管你什麼民進黨管你什麼國民黨大家都\n\n15:37.637 --> 15:57.706\n認為部長講的自愛燃省真正需要的是在這裡那我就感覺到很奇怪所有的問題為什麼沒有辦法解決會製造混亂因為我們也不知道最後會有一個通案刪減全部指向特定機關這個也要怪怪主計長啦過去歷屆來講本來就是如何調整如何調整貴黨提出的那個通案刪減裡面的項目特定機關特定項目那個是可以調的\n\n16:06.089 --> 16:10.291\n人家大會都講得很清楚你們主計處又不跟立法院所以有...\n\n16:36.547 --> 16:37.370\n好謝謝林委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":18.357,"end":24.878,"text":"好 我們開始下一位委員的詢答好 主席"},{"start":27.871,"end":42.308,"text":"時間還沒有開始以前我希望權益問題在場同仁聆聽個別委員的意見我不希望我們跟院長在對話過程當中有所干擾因為"},{"start":43.632,"end":56.923,"text":"我認為這樣一不禮貌二對院長也不好意思所以我要拜託主席這一點給我們一個尊嚴好不好好謝謝林委員好請卓院長好我們請卓院長備詢林委員好謝謝院長我也知道因為你就任快一年"},{"start":73.226,"end":90.673,"text":"過去我認識的卓院長到現在我坦白跟你講我內心話必須要跟你請述一下我真的過去的卓榮泰院長跟現在卓榮泰院長"},{"start":91.84,"end":111.673,"text":"我有一點驚訝不太一樣但是感情一樣可是就事論事所以我的主題就很簡單今天你提出互議案當然是你的權利我們一定要去尊重但是我在這裡有一個最簡單的理由兩個"},{"start":113.376,"end":133.732,"text":"編列預算是行政院的權利吧是是吧但是審查預算也是立法院的權利吧對 議決法案預算現在又恢復原來所認識的軸容態一向如此這個議題是沒有錯吧沒有錯那就謝謝院長了"},{"start":141.311,"end":167.418,"text":"我說實在的我就感覺到很奇怪史上最高的預算你們還是自愛然行可是你又講審查預算又是立法委員之前例那我就不曉得你今天提出這些自愛然行的復議案我真的想不透我想來想去我也不要跟你談細節我們就談觀念的問題"},{"start":171.533,"end":180.858,"text":"所以院長我說實在來接下來你可以看得出來這個請你公請你看一下從2027這次到2024都是民進黨蔡政府在執政可是節節上升的總預算"},{"start":193.715,"end":204.161,"text":"但是我們看到2005年我們的總預算刪掉以後還有兩兆九千四百億也就是歷屆最高"},{"start":207.563,"end":231.178,"text":"那當然你的理想你的報復或許要更多這個當然我們要尊重可是在我們立法院認為說該浪費的該不給的我們刪掉預算你剛才已經講立法委員刪掉預算是理所當然也是職責所在啊所以"},{"start":231.926,"end":256.133,"text":"一定 我們說實在 既然要談問題 我也不想跟你吵架我也不想你回復的問題 都是拐彎抹角 賣!卓榮泰不是那種人 但是我們針對問題來探討未來如何在這個 整個總預算的部分 如何去把它化解"},{"start":256.789,"end":281.111,"text":"因為這些總預算是你最高行政首長也是中華民國的行政院長這個你們要來執行有自愛難行當然程序可以走可是走完以後又怎麼樣呢還要再靠大法官的視線嗎這樣搞下去適合提同兩點簡單說明"},{"start":283.257,"end":296.436,"text":"因為稅入的增加我們才有稅出這麼多而且今年我們還有209億的稅劑剩餘所以我們沒有把稅入全部用完再來我們今年原編3兆1325億"},{"start":299.107,"end":315.481,"text":"因為其中有2,806億是去年沒有的新增計畫好 如果扣掉這個2,806億我們就是跟去年預算差不多在三減我們就沒去年參賞但是你們都沒有在聽這一段啦你剛才的報告我都聽了"},{"start":317.021,"end":344.272,"text":"我都聽了你不需要再重複所以這句話最後就是為什麼是史上最高你到立法院來任何一句話我都會洗耳恭聽就是因為有這個才是史上最高那你有這個問題那我就感覺到很奇怪了我們現在來談大問題好 接下來下一張我就感覺到很奇怪了民進黨在執政的時候他們可以刪預算那你們現在就講民眾黨跟國民黨不能刪預算我沒有這樣講過"},{"start":346.874,"end":363.611,"text":"合理的三強化 那沒有關係 你在這個部分你有你的看法但是立法院有立法院的立場啊 不是嗎三過頭的自然難行我必須表達出來什麼叫三過頭嘛 三過頭是你認知立法院的認知是完全不一樣喔 一定"},{"start":364.392,"end":388.651,"text":"一定你的報告我看得出來啦不是 刪減數超過預算數這怎麼辦啦好 那沒有關係怎麼會沒有關係沒有 院長我們接下來你刪了一百塊 你刪了一百二十塊怎麼會沒有關係怎麼會 怎麼會是這樣這是你們的認知有時候底下給你的資料根本好 來接下來我們再來看這是事實啊 來剛剛交通部林部長也說了嘛"},{"start":390.332,"end":417.942,"text":"我說實在話啦我說實在話 院長說實在的啦我最不滿意的就是行政院帶頭造謠這個部分我沒有造謠好 你沒有造謠好 那現在所有的造謠就是無中生有囉來 我簡單說幾句來 錦霄的部分劉部長在這裡這完全沒有刪嘛你們也說 我們刪一刪部長不要起來 不要起來"},{"start":419.366,"end":434.031,"text":"另外 潛艦的部分 我想顧部長在委員會審查預算的時候講得很清楚這是凍結案 根本沒有刪那你剛才 業務費三足就是影響你聽我說完 讓鄉村長者 你在說我 不是在打斷啊 對不對 你讓我講完"},{"start":439.893,"end":456.847,"text":"有就有 沒有就沒有那事實上來講還做一些 側翼做一些節能減電補助100億這完全造謠 根本沒有這回事嘛另外統一花票 你們現在領不到啦欸 拜託好不好"},{"start":458.028,"end":485.971,"text":"這叫做法定預算從營業額提撥3%這根本也不可能嘛另外增加的部分另外 講快一點新安 新清安現在不補助啦這是根本也沒有這回事嘛一定 你要聽我說這裡你們沒有 你們就想沒有那是誰無中生有我們要把無中生有化為真正的原因今天的問題才可以解決的一定 你聽我"},{"start":487.152,"end":512.92,"text":"對特定機關特定項目的統刪包括業務費那就影響這些業務的執行好 那個等一下我還會談好不好 等一下我會談所以啊 像出國會這個出國會刪的是官員部分跟選手有什麼關係鬧得灰灰洋洋 刪得十一億啦這些棒球選手等等這類的東西對立法院根本就是造謠抹黑嘛另外"},{"start":513.76,"end":541.213,"text":"我說實在的 什麼數位部啦 iPhone不能上市啦等等這些 兒童的醫療 根本都是惡意嘛所以我說實在 還有很多啦 還有很多因為時間的關係 我特別要跟院長報告我就感覺到很奇怪 我們不是很尊敬美國嗎我們美國關係不是很好嗎所以在這個部分 你看看喔"},{"start":542.413,"end":552.468,"text":"川普當然還是有人講他不好但是你看看一上台他就馬上3減20%到30%的這些預算是他們"},{"start":559.877,"end":574.911,"text":"總統自己刪但是我就感覺到很奇怪我們預算給來歷年最高但是你們又說自愛難行美國可以 為什麼我們不可以來 一定 你說一下"},{"start":576.232,"end":599.559,"text":"還是回到剛剛那句話所謂預算最高是因為有...我們對話才會有價值預算最高是因為有2,806億的新增預算這去年是沒有的如果扣掉這些的話預算沒有超過太多 跟去年是一樣的再經過一兩千億的刪減我們今年的預算就會比去年實質上低可是剛才 我跟你講 一定有 剛才我們說過"},{"start":601.707,"end":619.91,"text":"胡坤祺總召他把所有各部會 增內的預算是有的喔但是你現在自愛然行就是新增預算的部分嘛因為各部會都有新增預算在裡面那我就感覺到很奇怪啦我就感覺到很奇怪啊為什麼在政黨協商的時候"},{"start":620.33,"end":640.505,"text":"以我個人所了解 民意代表我也當了很久三億算是每一個民意代表的值錢我們是不可以給億算 但是可以三億算至於幅度多高 那這個就是要什麼透過政黨協商的當中 把理由 把困難講出來"},{"start":642.406,"end":664.481,"text":"這問題就會解決啊但這次通山並沒有協商而是表決啊是嘛 那為什麼不協商嘛韓院長 講快一點我雖然不是黨裡面幹部那你們有沒有協商嘛朝野協商好了之後 行政院才參與之後怎麼會協商好我跟你講 一定 我不要跟你爭論你把那個協商紀錄 我拜託我們副院長"},{"start":665.402,"end":694.64,"text":"拿出這些協商結論或者協商的經過讓你去看一看所以你不要只有道聽途說要去親眼目睹一定你是中華民國的行政一定最高潛力機構所有預算所有部會的預算是由你來由你來做溝通跟說明一定這就我給你謝謝委員的建議那委員是不是同意復議之後我們重新協商"},{"start":695.959,"end":703.722,"text":"我個人當然是贊成啊所以我後面就很簡單但是這些東西是我個人的看法我認為我還要給你一個良心的建議阿扁總統講的話你也認識嘛"},{"start":715.202,"end":737.597,"text":"不一定全部聽他的 可是他講的話有時候是有價值感的所以我要建議包容不同意見 不要對抗 不要對立這個我想你同意吧 同意還有天下之大不能獨佔 應由分享焉焉香罷 也就是罷免 何時了"},{"start":739.281,"end":757.85,"text":"我跟你講他講的很有理由有些言論我還是不太贊同他可是這一次他講這些話我認為是當今行政院跟立法院應該如何去化解非常好的建言所以我良心建議卓院長你應該要參考跟賴總統報告"},{"start":760.931,"end":775.981,"text":"因為我擔心的就是賴總統以前在台南市長的時候我最擔心的就是因為他也跟議會處不好所以這個部分 左院長你要用一點心你是要為台灣人民來做事"},{"start":776.761,"end":803.964,"text":"不是只有服務一個賴總統那賴總統有時候給他下錢不能上打或許老百姓的心聲有些是真的沒有辦法下錢上打產生這種誤解都還來得及啊你們執政只有一年啊雖然你們民進黨已經執政八年快要九年的但是亡羊補牢還是有機會啊所以要改變策略啦"},{"start":804.665,"end":833.001,"text":"但我是非常理性的人我就覺得我們為什麼一定要去某個在野黨為什麼不好好坐下來談這些是非常重要不是每一樣東西雖然法定有授權你自愛然行或者那個釋憲的這種種之權利但是說實在啦富裕富到最後還是一個結論嘛要解決問題不是嗎所以一定"},{"start":834.022,"end":857.195,"text":"今天當然我給你講話時間比較少但是我是以重心長在這裡我還是要建議院長協商才能前進對抗注定要致死俄國所以我要特別給院長一個建議溝通協商追加預算"},{"start":858.271,"end":884.193,"text":"了解 凍結 這等等都是啊你們現在就很簡單 欸凍結就是三億算不對啦 不對啦凍結當然你如果說在大會 那凍結很多啊有委員會就可以解凍的啊大會解凍 這兩者之中雖然大會解凍有所困難但是有很多事情是要靠溝通的欸"},{"start":885.254,"end":904.453,"text":"是要靠溝通 所以我要坦白跟院長講其實我每次在看政黨協商過去解凍最後一筆 從98年到113年超過九成都是在11月跟12月那你就沒有政黨協商 我跟你講"},{"start":906.495,"end":920.261,"text":"委員會你去看看所有部長在這裡委員會在審查預算根本是理性有時候部長談出他的苦衷在哪邊最後放的機會都很大以我個人來講"},{"start":921.582,"end":936.256,"text":"我們交通委員會部長在這裡我們有刪到什麼預算 沒有啊他自愛然行有困難他講出來15個委員大家都贊成不分黨派啊我管你什麼民進黨管你什麼國民黨大家都"},{"start":937.637,"end":957.706,"text":"認為部長講的自愛燃省真正需要的是在這裡那我就感覺到很奇怪所有的問題為什麼沒有辦法解決會製造混亂因為我們也不知道最後會有一個通案刪減全部指向特定機關這個也要怪怪主計長啦過去歷屆來講本來就是如何調整如何調整貴黨提出的那個通案刪減裡面的項目特定機關特定項目那個是可以調的"},{"start":966.089,"end":970.291,"text":"人家大會都講得很清楚你們主計處又不跟立法院所以有..."},{"start":996.547,"end":997.37,"text":"好 謝謝林委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":622,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（10時24分）主席，時間還沒有開始以前，我希望提出權宜問題。在場同仁聆聽個別委員的意見，我不希望我們跟院長在對話的過程當中有所干擾，因為我認為這樣：一，不禮貌；二，對院長也不好意思。所以我要拜託主席，這一點給我們一個尊嚴，好不好？"],["主席：好，謝謝林委員。"],["林委員國成：好，請卓院長。"],["主席：我們請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好，謝謝。"],["林委員國成：院長，我也知道，因為你就任快一年，過去我認識的卓院長到現在，我坦白跟你講，我內心話必須要跟你傾訴一下，過去的卓榮泰院長跟現在的卓榮泰院長，我有一點驚訝真的是不太一樣，但感情一樣，可是就事論事，所以我的主題很簡單，今天你提出覆議案，當然這是你的權力，我們一定要尊重，但是我在這裡有兩個最簡單的理由，編列預算是行政院的權力吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員國成：是嘛！但是審查預算也是立法院的權力吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，議決法案和預算案，都是大院的權力。"],["林委員國成：對嘛！現在又恢復原來我所認識的卓榮泰……"],["卓院長榮泰：一向如此啊！"],["林委員國成：一向如此？這個議題沒有錯吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯。"],["林委員國成：好，沒有錯，那就謝謝院長啦！說實在的，我就感覺到很奇怪，史上最高的預算，你們還窒礙難行，可是你又講審查預算是立法委員的權力，那我就不曉得你今天提出這些窒礙難行的覆議案，我想來想去，真的想不透，我也不要跟你談細節，我們就談觀念問題。","院長，接下來恭請你看一下這張圖，2017年到2024年都是民進黨蔡政府執政，可是總預算是節節上升；2025年總預算刪減之後，還有2兆9,400億，也是歷屆最高。當然，你的理想、你的抱負或許需要更多預算，這個我們要尊重，可是就立法院而言，我們認為浪費的、不該給的，我們就把預算刪掉。你剛才已經講了，立法委員刪減預算是理所當然，也是職責所在，所以說實在的，既然要談問題，我也不想跟院長吵架，也不想你回復的問題都是拐彎抹角，不要！卓榮泰不是那種人，我們針對問題來探討……"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["林委員國成：未來在整個總預算的問題上，要如何化解？因為這些總預算是最高行政首長，也是中華民國行政院長要來執行的，有窒礙難行，當然程序可以走，可是走完以後又怎麼樣呢？還要再靠大法官釋憲嗎？這樣搞下去是何體統！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們兩點簡單說明，因為歲入增加，才有這麼多歲出，而且今年我們還有209億的歲計賸餘，所以我們並沒有把歲入全部用完。再來，今年總預算原編列3兆1,325億，其中有2,806億是去年沒有的新增計畫，如果扣掉這2,806億，我們的預算是跟去年差不多……"],["林委員國成：院長，你剛才報告……"],["卓院長榮泰：再刪減，就會比去年還少。"],["林委員國成：我已經……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是你們都沒有在聽這一段啊！"],["林委員國成：你剛才的報告我都聽了……"],["卓院長榮泰：這一段委員應該知道……"],["林委員國成：我都聽了，你不需要再重複……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以這句話最後就是為什麼是史上最高……"],["林委員國成：你到立法院來，任何一句話我都會洗耳恭聽…………"],["卓院長榮泰：就是因為有這個才是史上最高。"],["林委員國成：現在有這個問題，我就覺得很奇怪，我們現在來談大問題。接下來請看下一張圖，我就覺得很奇怪，民進黨執政的時候可以刪預算，但你們現在卻講民眾黨跟國民黨不能刪預算……"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有這樣講過，合理的刪減，我們都……"],["林委員國成：你沒有這樣講？好，沒有關係，在這個部分你有你的看法，但是立法院有立法院的立場，不是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：刪過頭了就窒礙難行，我必須表達出來。"],["林委員國成：什麼是刪過頭嘛？刪過頭是你的認知，立法院的認知是完全不一樣的，院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：新的部會、機關……"],["林委員國成：院長，你的報告我有看啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，刪減數超過預算數，這怎麼辦啦！"],["林委員國成：好，那沒有關係……"],["卓院長榮泰：怎麼會沒有關係？"],["林委員國成：院長，我們接下來……"],["卓院長榮泰：編列100塊，你刪了120塊，怎麼會沒有關係？"],["林委員國成：怎麼會是這樣？這是你們的認知，有時候底下給你的資料根本……好，接下來，我們再來看。"],["卓院長榮泰：這是事實啊！剛剛交通部陳部長也說了嘛！"],["林委員國成：我說實在話，院長，我最不滿意的就是行政院帶頭造謠的這個部分。"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有造謠。"],["林委員國成：好，你沒有造謠，那現在所有的造謠就是無中生有囉？我簡單說幾句，警消的部分，劉部長在這裡，這完全沒有刪嘛，但你們也說我們刪預算。部長，不用過來！","另外潛艦的部分，我想顧部長在委員會審查預算的時候講得很清楚，這是凍結案，根本沒有刪。"],["卓院長榮泰：業務費刪除就是有影響。"],["林委員國成：你聽我說完，互相尊重一下，你在講的時候我也沒有打斷你啊！對不對？你讓我講完，有就有，沒有就沒有。事實上側翼還說刪減節能家電補助100億，這完全是造謠，根本沒有這回事嘛！","另外，對於統一發票，就說你們現在領不到了！拜託，這叫做法定預算，要從營業額提撥3%，這根本也不可能刪嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：那是另外增加的部分。"],["林委員國成：另外，我講快一點，說新青安現在不補助了，但根本也沒有這回事嘛！院長，你要聽我講的這些，沒有你們就講沒有，但是誰無中生有？我們要把無中生有化為真正的原因，今天的問題才可以解決，院長可有聽懂？"],["卓院長榮泰：一句就好了，對特定機關、特定項目的統刪，包括業務費，就是會影響這些業務的施行。"],["林委員國成：那個等一下我還會談，好不好？等一下我會談。像出國費，這個出國費刪的是官員的部分，跟選手有什麼關係？鬧得沸沸揚揚，說是刪了11億，這些棒球選手等等這類的東西，對立法院根本就是造謠抹黑嘛！","另外，我說實在的，什麼數位部、iPhone不能上市、兒童的醫療等等這些，根本都是惡意嘛！說實在的，還有很多啦！因為時間的關係，我特別要跟院長報告，我就感到很奇怪，我們不是很尊敬美國嗎？我們和美國的關係不是很好嗎？所以在這個部分，川普當然還是有人講他不好，但是你看看他一上台，他就馬上刪減20%到30%的預算，這還是他們總統自己刪的，但我卻感到很奇怪，我們預算給到歷年最高，你們卻又說窒礙難行。美國可以，為什麼我們不可以？院長，你說一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：還是回到剛剛那句話，所謂「預算最高」……"],["林委員國成：剛剛你報告的時候已經說過了……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是這個要把它放在……我們對話才會有價值。"],["林委員國成：我們瞭解嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：所謂「預算最高」是因為有2,806億的新增預算，這在去年是沒有的。如果扣掉這些的話，預算沒有超過太多，跟去年是一樣的。在經過一、二千億的刪減，我們今年的預算就會比去年實質上低。"],["林委員國成：院長，剛才我們講過了，傅崐萁總召把所有各部會增列的預算……是有的喔！但是你現在窒礙難行的就是新增預算的部分嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：因為各部會都有新增預算在裡面，當然會增加啊！"],["林委員國成：好，那我就感到很奇怪了，為什麼在政黨協商的時候，以我個人所瞭解的，民意代表我也當了很久，刪預算是每一個民意代表的職權，我們是不可以給預算，但是可以刪預算，至於幅度多高，這個就要透過政黨協商把理由跟困難講出來，問題就會解決了。"],["卓院長榮泰：但這次的通刪並沒有協商，而是表決。"],["林委員國成：是嘛！為什麼不協商？韓院長……我講快一點，我雖然不是黨裡面的幹部，但你們有沒有協商？"],["卓院長榮泰：朝野協商好之後，行政院才……"],["林委員國成：怎麼會協商好？院長，我跟你講，我不要跟你爭論，你把那個協商紀錄，我拜託我們副院長拿出這些協商結論或協商的經過讓你看一看，你不要只有道聽途說，要去親眼目睹。院長，你是中華民國的行政院長，最高權力機構，所有部會的預算是由你來做溝通及說明……"],["卓院長榮泰：好……"],["林委員國成：院長，這是我給你的良心建議……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的建議，好，那委員是不是同意覆議之後，我們重新協商？"],["林委員國成：我個人當然是贊成啊！所以我後面就很簡單，但是……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以委員同意覆議、同意重新協商，謝謝委員。"],["林委員國成：但是這些東西是我個人的看法，我還要給你一個良心的建議。","阿扁總統你也認識嘛！他講的話，不一定全部聽他的，可是他講的話有時候是有價值感的，所以我要建議，包容不同意見，不要對抗、不要對立，這個我想你同意吧！還有天下之大，不能獨占，應該要分享，冤冤相「罷」（也就是罷免）何時了？我跟你講，他講得很有理由，有些言論我還是不太贊同他，可是這次他講這些話，我認為是當今行政院和立法院應該如何去化解非常好的建言，所以我良心建議，卓院長，你應該要參考，跟賴總統報告。因為我最擔心的就是賴總統以前在臺南市長的時候也跟議會處不好，所以這個部分，卓院長，你要用一點心，你是要為臺灣人民來做事，不是只有服務一個賴總統。賴總統有時候下情不能上達，或許老百姓的心聲有些是真的沒有辦法下情上達，產生這種誤解。都還來得及啊！你們執政只有1年，雖然你們民進黨已經執政8年，快要9年了，但是亡羊補牢還是有機會，所以要改變策略啦！","我是非常理性的人，我就覺得我們為什麼一定要去抹黑在野黨？為什麼不好好坐下來談？這些是非常重要，雖然法定有授權你窒礙難行的時候或者釋憲的種種權力，但是說實在，覆議覆到最後還是一個結論，要解決問題，不是嗎？院長，今天當然我給你講話的時間比較少，但是我是語重心長……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["林委員國成：在這裡我還是要建議，院長，協商才能前進，對抗注定要自食惡果，所以我要特別給院長一個建議，溝通、協商、追加預算、了解凍結，這等等都是，你們現在就很簡單，認為凍結就是刪預算，不對啦！不對啦！當然解凍如果在大會有所困難，但是凍結很多，有委員會就可以解凍的啊！這兩者之中，雖然大會解凍有所困難，但是有很多事情是要靠溝通的耶！是要靠溝通，所以我要坦白跟院長講，其實我每次在看政黨協商……"],["卓院長榮泰：過去解凍最後1筆，從98年到113年，超過九成都是在11月及12月。"],["林委員國成：那你就沒有政黨協商。院長，我跟你講，委員會你去看看，所有部長在這裡，委員會在審查預算根本是理性，有時候部長談出他的苦衷在哪邊，最後放的機會都很大，以我個人來講，我們交通委員會，部長在這裡，我們有刪到什麼預算？沒有啊！他窒礙難行、有困難，他講出來，15個委員大家都贊成，不分黨派啊！我管你什麼民進黨，管你什麼國民黨，大家都認同部長講的窒礙難行，真正需要的是在這裡。那我就感覺到很奇怪！所有的問題為什麼沒有辦法解決，會製造混亂……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為我們也不知道最後會一個通案刪減，全部指向特定機關、特定項目……"],["林委員國成：好啦！這個也要怪主計長，過去歷屆來講，本來就是如何調整……"],["卓院長榮泰：不能怪，表決的時候，主計長又不在……"],["林委員國成：院長，如何調整……"],["卓院長榮泰：貴黨提出的那個通案刪減，裡面的項目指向特定機關、特定項目……"],["林委員國成：那個是可以調的，人家大會都講得很清楚，你們主計總處又不跟立法院……"],["卓院長榮泰：裡面有不得流用耶！"],["林委員國成：院長，我坦白跟你說，我跟你建議這些，希望你參考一下，溝通協商追加預算、解凍方法，這樣是可以解決的，因為沒有錢是沒有辦法做事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：希望委員支持覆議案成立，重新審議，大家一起協商。"],["林委員國成：要不要成立就是要看你們表現，如果你現在還這樣，我跟你說，我也不會贊成。"],["主席：好，謝謝林委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告全院委員會，休息10分鐘，休息之後繼續進行詢答，現在休息。","休息（10時40分）","繼續開會（10時51分）"],["主席：報告全院委員會，現在繼續開會。","請賴委員瑞隆詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","林倩綺","范雲","林國成","賴瑞隆","王定宇","徐欣瑩","林岱樺","許宇甄","郭國文","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","葛如鈞"],"page_start":191,"meetingDate":["2025-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1142501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第2次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案」覆議案","agenda_id":"1142501_00019"}}}