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\"您\", \"start\": 78.063, \"end\": 78.723, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 78.723, \"end\": 78.943, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"吧\", \"start\": 78.943, \"end\": 78.963, \"score\": 0.972}]}, {\"start\": 81.951, \"end\": 92.085, \"text\": \"所以有時候民眾很期待的公共政策跟立法委員反映但是行政機關可能這個政策失當或是行政效率不彰\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 81.951, \"end\": 82.131, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 82.131, \"end\": 82.492, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 82.492, \"end\": 82.732, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 82.732, \"end\": 82.812, \"score\": 0.706}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 82.812, \"end\": 83.152, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"眾\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 83.152, \"end\": 83.393, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 83.393, \"end\": 83.553, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"待\", \"start\": 83.553, \"end\": 83.693, \"score\": 0.953}, 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{\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 92.065, \"end\": 92.085, \"score\": 0.395}, {\"word\": \"彰\"}]}, {\"start\": 93.646, \"end\": 119.508, \"text\": \"那立法委員呢看到行政機關沒有很快速啟動希望他快馬加鞭的進行所以立法委員用比較霹靂雷霆的預算提議方式來催促行政機關加快動作但是呢提議不等於決議因為在這個過程中有雙方的溝通打磨的過程可是現在呢很多這個為了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 93.646, \"end\": 94.447, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 94.447, \"end\": 94.587, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 94.587, \"end\": 94.747, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 94.747, \"end\": 95.028, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 95.028, \"end\": 95.808, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 95.808, \"end\": 95.988, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 95.988, \"end\": 96.168, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 96.168, \"end\": 96.329, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 96.329, \"end\": 96.829, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 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\"特殊的政黨惡鬥或者是各種甚至為了罷免故意扭曲預算的提議這個是很不道德的像本席看到我們台灣性暴力犯罪始終居高不下這個犯罪案件跟被害人人數一直攀升我們很多的狼師跟很多的狼教練一直沒辦法杜絕所以本席\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 122.352, \"end\": 122.592, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"殊\", \"start\": 122.592, \"end\": 122.792, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 122.792, \"end\": 123.032, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 123.032, \"end\": 124.553, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"惡\"}, {\"word\": \"鬥\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 124.553, \"end\": 124.733, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 124.733, \"end\": 124.873, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 124.873, \"end\": 125.093, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 125.093, \"end\": 125.953, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"甚\", \"start\": 125.953, \"end\": 126.153, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 126.153, \"end\": 126.413, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 126.413, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 609.29, \"end\": 609.31, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 609.31, \"end\": 609.33, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 620.433, \"end\": 648.706, \"text\": \"中華民國憲政史上從來沒有過的過去立法院二讀會之前的協調協商都會如期進行結果我們也召開了結果全國都在看召開會議的時候這個執政黨的黨團幹部冗長發言癱瘓整個協商最後讓協商走不下去那現在那個行政單位又用這個當藉口\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 620.433, \"end\": 620.813, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"華\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 620.813, \"end\": 621.514, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 621.514, \"end\": 621.734, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"史\", \"start\": 621.734, \"end\": 621.894, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 621.894, \"end\": 622.434, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 622.434, \"end\": 622.574, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 622.574, \"end\": 622.934, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 622.934, \"end\": 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--> 00:00:53,084\n還不到十個月對,不到十個月但是您已經是史上提出復議案最多復議案最密集的行政院長而且也是第一位就預算案提出復議案的行政院長院長,您擔任過兩屆的立法委員\n\n3\n00:00:55,535 --> 00:01:18,963\n過去也審核過預算現在擔任行政院長您也編列預算提出預算案所以我相信您應該很了解在民主國家的國會跟行政單位就預算案的審查過程這個過程中的謀和溝通這個是民主的常態您應該認同吧\n\n4\n00:01:21,951 --> 00:01:32,085\n所以有時候民眾很期待的公共政策跟立法委員反映但是行政機關可能這個政策失當或是行政效率不彰\n\n5\n00:01:33,646 --> 00:01:59,508\n那立法委員呢看到行政機關沒有很快速啟動希望他快馬加鞭的進行所以立法委員用比較霹靂雷霆的預算提議方式來催促行政機關加快動作但是呢提議不等於決議因為在這個過程中有雙方的溝通打磨的過程可是現在呢很多這個為了\n\n6\n00:02:02,352 --> 00:02:26,839\n特殊的政黨惡鬥或者是各種甚至為了罷免故意扭曲預算的提議這個是很不道德的像本席看到我們台灣性暴力犯罪始終居高不下這個犯罪案件跟被害人人數一直攀升我們很多的狼師跟很多的狼教練一直沒辦法杜絕所以本席\n\n7\n00:02:28,039 --> 00:02:56,399\n對於行政院性評處的預算呢本來提議刪除但是性評處來溝通之後那他也了解本席的代表民眾的期待所以他們也承諾要做所以我們最後我們只刪減了這個比去年新增的預算同時也希望行政院能夠盡快來做那有做我們就可以解凍那本席很\n\n8\n00:02:57,079 --> 00:03:23,526\n很開心的看到在前幾天3月6號我們行政院性評處終於提出了性別暴力防制國家行動計畫所以這個就是很好的一個例子所以我們刪減凍結其實為的是什麼就是大家為了這個台灣為了民眾民眾的安全最重要這點你應該認同吧是的非常謝謝委員那是因為委員專業理性好溝通能理解\n\n9\n00:03:23,986 --> 00:03:48,982\n謝謝不是每個委員都像委員這個樣子因為每個委員都像委員這樣子今天這場場景不會發生沒有那接下來呢本席也這個要再舉一個例就是像我們的詐騙本席在總諮詢也詢問過詐騙案民眾就是希望他不小心被詐騙他的錢可以趕快拿回來所以我們的行政單位目前對於台灣被詐騙的民眾錢可以拿回來的\n\n10\n00:03:50,455 --> 00:04:12,122\n案例不多可是被騙的這個數字一直攀升所以我們為了讓相關單位能夠加速各種立法還有各種措施所以我們也做了一些凍結那只要行政單位好好的做我們這個絕對解凍絕對解凍可以盡快排案這個都沒問題所以這一塊我們也希望行政單位可以了解\n\n11\n00:04:13,595 --> 00:04:28,167\n那接下來本席要就整個預算案您今天的附議案附議案的很多的理由本席要特別的提出來第一個行政院的附議案說刪減總數未宣讀審查後稅出總數有爭議\n\n12\n00:04:34,872 --> 00:04:46,938\n我們很好奇的是我們看到我們三讀的時候主席有明確的宣告而且在114年1月21日立法院本院114卷第19期公報第129頁明確記載了記載了整個稅出部分總預算3兆1324億6899千元\n\n13\n00:05:01,545 --> 00:05:06,186\n然後委員會三檢數是67億3763萬元加上院會的三檢數1068億6162萬9千元最後再加上通案統三的數不低於939億7500萬元所以合計這整個三檢數是2075億7425萬9千元\n\n14\n00:05:31,328 --> 00:05:45,337\n那這個部分已經經過三讀宣告而且公報上也有明白的寫所以怎麼會說沒有確定的數字或總數送到行政院的文子裡面沒有總數的這個東西我們三讀通過而且這個公報都明確記載再來\n\n15\n00:05:53,382 --> 00:06:08,641\n第一個剛剛本席已經講這個審查結論也許執政黨不滿意但是不能說沒有明確的總數那剛剛院長你說送來行政院的沒有數字可是在你們今天復議案的文字裡面第二大項\n\n16\n00:06:09,542 --> 00:06:37,324\n你內容就寫啦114年度總預算案三減數2076億餘元所以你們還是知道總數的嘛第一個減法剛剛有講你減法你自然會減嘛這每個數字很清楚所以你們一定會知道總數再來你自己的副議案也特別有提到你都提到了三減總數了所以其實是有數字的這個是立法院的宣讀數\n\n17\n00:06:38,485 --> 00:06:43,607\n這我認為它不是三讀數因為三讀沒有這個數字是宣讀數宣讀數裡面有爭議939億怎麼產生有爭議因為我們的會議主席宣告然後整個的公報也都有明確的記載那再來再來\n\n18\n00:06:57,871 --> 00:07:15,435\n主計總署計算僅三減了1439億餘元附議案內容沒有具體說明這個如何計算來的這個部分我不需要您現在回答我們希望會後主計總署看看是不是可以回覆給我們你們怎麼計算出三減是1439億餘元那因為時間關係這個部分本席在這邊特別提出來\n\n19\n00:07:22,950 --> 00:07:52,424\n那再來就是在這個立法院審查預算過程中的通案是哪些我相信您很清楚通案的科目有大陸地區的旅費國外旅費國內旅費水電費特別費房屋建築養護費等等委辦費一般事務費所以這些科目的性質院長你應該也很了解它的性質是什麼它的性質就是一些行政管理的成本概念嗎是的對好院長您認同所以\n\n20\n00:07:53,424 --> 00:08:12,760\n這些三減數怎麼會有違權利分利原則因為權利分利原則是說我要你這個單位的錢去補那個單位沒有我們這個三減數沒有要你挖東牆補西牆我們要的是四個字準結支出我們要的是成本概念\n\n21\n00:08:13,420 --> 00:08:30,512\n所以跟我們副議案所講的整體資源配置還有施政計畫內容影響行政權的行使其實並不抵觸但是報告委員這個通案我們算出來依照每個通案的項目後面的比例算出來只有能刪減303億接著接著我們\n\n22\n00:08:35,575 --> 00:08:50,865\n副議案裡面還特別講到說這個會妨礙行政權的行使這個真的太危言聳聽因為您剛剛講到這個通案刪除的部分要自行調整636億餘元\n\n23\n00:08:53,306 --> 00:09:18,642\n那院長您過去擔任過立委您應該知道我們的預算從委員會後來到黨團院會對不對在二讀會之前有所謂的協商但您看看剛剛不管您答覆民進黨的委員或是民進黨委員都一直在抨擊這史上這個預算怎麼樣怎麼樣但是你們忽略了過程\n\n24\n00:09:19,849 --> 00:09:40,580\n這個過程在二讀會協商之前韓院長非常辛苦然後召集朝野協商院長您可能有所不知立法院請行政院主計機關還有各部會會同作業就是要確定統三金額如何分配到各部會結果呢\n\n25\n00:09:41,857 --> 00:09:56,970\n我不知道你們是刻意還是真的是怎麼樣忽略行政院各單位跟民進黨團聯手已讀不回立法院幕僚以各種方式邀請行政機關確定分配額的作業置之不理\n\n26\n00:09:58,107 --> 00:10:09,330\n這一塊說不通吧因為計算案出來包括剛剛講要追加的話不如就這個通過復議案各位院長院長這個過程就不合理當初其實要協調可是相關單位不來這個我應該要講這個也是\n\n27\n00:10:20,433 --> 00:10:48,706\n中華民國憲政史上從來沒有過的過去立法院二讀會之前的協調協商都會如期進行結果我們也召開了結果全國都在看召開會議的時候這個執政黨的黨團幹部冗長發言癱瘓整個協商最後讓協商走不下去那現在那個行政單位又用這個當藉口\n\n28\n00:10:49,765 --> 00:11:14,517\n這個不合理委員剛剛也說我們的姓名數有跟您說明溝通所以問題就解決了但是其他的委員不是這樣子好溝通啊那個是在這個之前沒錯所以他把那些對特定機關的特定的印象帶到整個協商裡面去做特定機關特定項目的刪減巨幅的刪減最大的問題就是在院長協商的時候我們看到太多次協商不下去\n\n29\n00:11:15,557 --> 00:11:31,005\n很大問題是行政立法機關最重要的協商這個已經浪費很多時間沒有辦法往下走這個是很大的問題所以這個部分我想院長您這個部分不能夠歸咎在野黨那再來\n\n30\n00:11:36,848 --> 00:12:03,283\n這個有講到覺得如果預算有不當支出的可以合理的刪減那所謂合理當然我們剛剛講很多的溝通嘛那所以不能夠關閉溝通那所以這個合理當然我相信你也認同不是行政院決定嘛那是這個立法院他絕對由立法院來最後裁決這個才是民主憲政那再來就是\n\n31\n00:12:06,411 --> 00:12:35,694\n我們特別在附議案也講到說這個各機關的法定義務在審查過程中其實我們都有充分考量因為這個附議案裡面文字寫到說會影響法定機關正常運作以及履行其法定職務那我們現在秀一下同影片我們在統刪的部分也特別的有講我們有考量法律明文規定之初不刪外\n\n32\n00:12:36,488 --> 00:12:56,747\n其餘桶山10%所以這個部分也因此院長您知道嗎行政院的這一些動作我們在最近創造出一個新名詞叫做賣慘就是說其實很多情況大家要了解真實情況是如何\n\n33\n00:12:58,478 --> 00:13:17,088\n再來附議案內容講到總三減數較前三年平均增加六倍三減程度衝擊到運作這點我想您了解總三減數可能是史上最高但是呢\n\n34\n00:13:18,459 --> 00:13:33,120\n我們的預算數也是史上最高我想您應該知道我們的預算還有我們的預算增加的幅度急劇增加因為我們有2806億的新增事項項目是去年沒有的2806億\n\n35\n00:13:35,243 --> 00:13:50,897\n這扣掉三兆一千三百二十五億就剩下兩兆八千五百一十九億就跟去年一樣啊這些內容我們在很多預算我都寫在裡面了但這一點大家都很厭我覺得委員都有意忽略這一段但是我們既然現在看結論就是\n\n36\n00:13:51,698 --> 00:14:06,623\n你急劇增加你幅度增加史上最高你的總預算我們刪減了以後你還是史上最高所以這一塊我們希望這個外界也都可以了解史上最高是因為增加了2806億的新增項目您剛剛還有特別講到說院會\n\n37\n00:14:11,425 --> 00:14:26,547\n就是我們整個的刪減以於原編列預算案數不合理來特別的舉例說包括監察院那以監察院來說過去民進黨也長期也認同就是說\n\n38\n00:14:28,863 --> 00:14:50,532\n廢除監察院這也是長期你們的主張嘛不能用刪減預算來行使修改憲法的權利啊那會刪減成這樣其實是什麼不行啊是所有委員帶著民眾的期許是修憲民眾認為監察院長期功能不彰它淪為政治醜庸那所以預算被刪這是表達民眾的整體的憤怒\n\n39\n00:14:52,173 --> 00:15:20,284\n那外交部呢外交部的免宣費被超過預算數三減超過的部分2953萬你覺得他怎麼處理這邊其實我們院長您不能裝傻我沒有裝我本來就傻嘛你再客氣我們院會有特別說明院會處理後的三減數不超過預算編列數這一塊我們都有特別在院會都有特別說明講了那麼多次你們都不聽\n\n40\n00:15:21,334 --> 00:15:24,039\n史上最高是因為2,606億你就把我這段話\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7341\t11204\t謝謝會議主席江副院長,本席有請卓院長請卓院長備詢許委員好院長,很遺憾在副議案碰面您擔任行政院長還不滿一年\n33717\t53084\t還不到十個月對,不到十個月但是您已經是史上提出復議案最多復議案最密集的行政院長而且也是第一位就預算案提出復議案的行政院長院長,您擔任過兩屆的立法委員\n55535\t78963\t過去也審核過預算現在擔任行政院長 您也編列預算提出預算案所以我相信您應該很了解在民主國家的國會跟行政單位就預算案的審查過程這個過程中的謀和溝通這個是民主的常態 您應該認同吧\n81951\t92085\t所以有時候民眾很期待的公共政策跟立法委員反映但是行政機關可能這個政策失當或是行政效率不彰\n93646\t119508\t那立法委員呢看到行政機關沒有很快速啟動希望他快馬加鞭的進行所以立法委員用比較霹靂雷霆的預算提議方式來催促行政機關加快動作但是呢提議不等於決議因為在這個過程中有雙方的溝通打磨的過程可是現在呢很多這個為了\n122352\t146839\t特殊的政黨惡鬥或者是各種甚至為了罷免故意扭曲預算的提議這個是很不道德的像本席看到我們台灣性暴力犯罪始終居高不下這個犯罪案件跟被害人人數一直攀升我們很多的狼師跟很多的狼教練一直沒辦法杜絕所以本席\n148039\t176399\t對於行政院性評處的預算呢本來提議刪除但是性評處來溝通之後那他也了解本席的代表民眾的期待所以他們也承諾要做所以我們最後我們只刪減了這個比去年新增的預算同時也希望行政院能夠盡快來做那有做我們就可以解凍那本席很\n177079\t203526\t很開心的看到在前幾天3月6號我們行政院性評處終於提出了性別暴力防制國家行動計畫所以這個就是很好的一個例子所以我們刪減凍結其實為的是什麼就是大家為了這個台灣為了民眾民眾的安全最重要這點你應該認同吧是的非常謝謝委員那是因為委員專業理性好溝通能理解\n203986\t228982\t謝謝不是每個委員都像委員這個樣子因為每個委員都像委員這樣子今天這場場景不會發生沒有那接下來呢本席也這個要再舉一個例就是像我們的詐騙本席在總諮詢也詢問過詐騙案民眾就是希望他不小心被詐騙他的錢可以趕快拿回來所以我們的行政單位目前對於台灣被詐騙的民眾錢可以拿回來的\n230455\t252122\t案例不多可是被騙的這個數字一直攀升所以我們為了讓相關單位能夠加速各種立法還有各種措施所以我們也做了一些凍結那只要行政單位好好的做我們這個絕對解凍絕對解凍可以盡快排案這個都沒問題所以這一塊我們也希望行政單位可以了解\n253595\t268167\t那接下來本席要就整個預算案您今天的附議案附議案的很多的理由本席要特別的提出來第一個行政院的附議案說刪減總數未宣讀審查後稅出總數有爭議\n274872\t286938\t我們很好奇的是我們看到我們三讀的時候主席有明確的宣告而且在114年1月21日立法院本院114卷第19期公報第129頁明確記載了記載了整個稅出部分總預算3兆1324億6899千元\n301545\t306186\t然後委員會三檢數是67億3763萬元加上院會的三檢數1068億6162萬9千元最後再加上通案統三的數不低於939億7500萬元所以合計這整個三檢數是2075億7425萬9千元\n331328\t345337\t那這個部分已經經過三讀宣告而且公報上也有明白的寫所以怎麼會說沒有確定的數字或總數送到行政院的文子裡面沒有總數的這個東西我們三讀通過而且這個公報都明確記載再來\n353382\t368641\t第一個剛剛本席已經講這個審查結論也許執政黨不滿意但是不能說沒有明確的總數那剛剛院長你說送來行政院的沒有數字可是在你們今天復議案的文字裡面第二大項\n369542\t397324\t你內容就寫啦114年度總預算案三減數2076億餘元所以你們還是知道總數的嘛第一個減法剛剛有講你減法你自然會減嘛這每個數字很清楚所以你們一定會知道總數再來你自己的副議案也特別有提到你都提到了三減總數了所以其實是有數字的這個是立法院的宣讀數\n398485\t403607\t這我認為它不是三讀數因為三讀沒有這個數字是宣讀數宣讀數裡面有爭議939億怎麼產生有爭議因為我們的會議主席宣告然後整個的公報也都有明確的記載那再來再來\n417871\t435435\t主計總署計算僅三減了1439億餘元附議案內容沒有具體說明這個如何計算來的這個部分我不需要您現在回答我們希望會後主計總署看看是不是可以回覆給我們你們怎麼計算出三減是1439億餘元那因為時間關係這個部分本席在這邊特別提出來\n442950\t472424\t那再來就是在這個立法院審查預算過程中的通案是哪些我相信您很清楚通案的科目有大陸地區的旅費國外旅費國內旅費水電費特別費房屋建築養護費等等委辦費一般事務費所以這些科目的性質院長你應該也很了解它的性質是什麼它的性質就是一些行政管理的成本概念嗎是的對好院長您認同所以\n473424\t492760\t這些三減數怎麼會有違權利分利原則因為權利分利原則是說我要你這個單位的錢去補那個單位沒有我們這個三減數沒有要你挖東牆補西牆我們要的是四個字準結支出我們要的是成本概念\n493420\t510512\t所以跟我們副議案所講的整體資源配置還有施政計畫內容影響行政權的行使其實並不抵觸但是報告委員這個通案我們算出來依照每個通案的項目後面的比例算出來只有能刪減303億接著接著我們\n515575\t530865\t副議案裡面還特別講到說這個會妨礙行政權的行使這個真的太危言聳聽因為您剛剛講到這個通案刪除的部分要自行調整636億餘元\n533306\t558642\t那院長您過去擔任過立委您應該知道我們的預算從委員會後來到黨團院會對不對在二讀會之前有所謂的協商但您看看剛剛不管您答覆民進黨的委員或是民進黨委員都一直在抨擊這史上這個預算怎麼樣怎麼樣但是你們忽略了過程\n559849\t580580\t這個過程在二讀會協商之前韓院長非常辛苦然後召集朝野協商院長您可能有所不知立法院請行政院主計機關還有各部會會同作業就是要確定統三金額如何分配到各部會結果呢\n581857\t596970\t我不知道你們是刻意還是真的是怎麼樣忽略行政院各單位跟民進黨團聯手已讀不回立法院幕僚以各種方式邀請行政機關確定分配額的作業置之不理\n598107\t609330\t這一塊說不通吧因為計算案出來包括剛剛講要追加的話不如就這個通過復議案各位院長院長這個過程就不合理當初其實要協調可是相關單位不來這個我應該要講這個也是\n620433\t648706\t中華民國憲政史上從來沒有過的過去立法院二讀會之前的協調協商都會如期進行結果我們也召開了結果全國都在看召開會議的時候這個執政黨的黨團幹部冗長發言癱瘓整個協商最後讓協商走不下去那現在那個行政單位又用這個當藉口\n649765\t674517\t這個不合理委員剛剛也說我們的姓名數有跟您說明溝通所以問題就解決了但是其他的委員不是這樣子好溝通啊那個是在這個之前沒錯所以他把那些對特定機關的特定的印象帶到整個協商裡面去做特定機關特定項目的刪減巨幅的刪減最大的問題就是在院長協商的時候我們看到太多次協商不下去\n675557\t691005\t很大問題是行政立法機關最重要的協商這個已經浪費很多時間沒有辦法往下走這個是很大的問題所以這個部分我想院長您這個部分不能夠歸咎在野黨那再來\n696848\t723283\t這個有講到覺得如果預算有不當支出的可以合理的刪減那所謂合理當然我們剛剛講很多的溝通嘛那所以不能夠關閉溝通那所以這個合理當然我相信你也認同不是行政院決定嘛那是這個立法院他絕對由立法院來最後裁決這個才是民主憲政那再來就是\n726411\t755694\t我們特別在附議案也講到說這個各機關的法定義務在審查過程中其實我們都有充分考量因為這個附議案裡面文字寫到說會影響法定機關正常運作以及履行其法定職務那我們現在秀一下同影片我們在統刪的部分也特別的有講我們有考量法律明文規定之初不刪外\n756488\t776747\t其餘桶山10%所以這個部分也因此 院長您知道嗎行政院的這一些動作我們在最近創造出一個新名詞叫做賣慘就是說其實很多情況大家要了解真實情況是如何\n778478\t797088\t再來附議案內容講到總三減數較前三年平均增加六倍三減程度衝擊到運作這點我想您了解總三減數可能是史上最高但是呢\n798459\t813120\t我們的預算數也是史上最高我想您應該知道我們的預算還有我們的預算增加的幅度急劇增加因為我們有2806億的新增事項項目是去年沒有的2806億\n815243\t830897\t這扣掉三兆一千三百二十五億就剩下兩兆八千五百一十九億就跟去年一樣啊這些內容我們在很多預算我都寫在裡面了但這一點大家都很厭我覺得委員都有意忽略這一段但是我們既然現在看結論就是\n831698\t846623\t你急劇增加你幅度增加史上最高你的總預算我們刪減了以後你還是史上最高所以這一塊我們希望這個外界也都可以了解史上最高是因為增加了2806億的新增項目您剛剛還有特別講到說院會\n851425\t866547\t就是我們整個的刪減以於原編列預算案數不合理來特別的舉例說包括監察院那以監察院來說過去民進黨也長期也認同就是說\n868863\t890532\t廢除監察院 這也是長期你們的主張嘛 不能用刪減預算來行使修改憲法的權利啊那會刪減成這樣其實是什麼 不行啊是所有委員帶著民眾的期許 是修憲民眾認為監察院長期功能不彰它淪為政治醜庸那所以預算被刪這是表達民眾的整體的憤怒\n892173\t920284\t那外交部呢外交部的免宣費被超過預算數三減超過的部分2953萬你覺得他怎麼處理這邊其實我們院長您不能裝傻我沒有裝我本來就傻嘛你再客氣我們院會有特別說明院會處理後的三減數不超過預算編列數這一塊我們都有特別在院會都有特別說明講了那麼多次你們都不聽\n921334\t924039\t史上最高是因為2,606億你就把我這段話\n","txt":"謝謝會議主席江副院長,本席有請卓院長請卓院長備詢許委員好院長,很遺憾在副議案碰面您擔任行政院長還不滿一年\n還不到十個月對,不到十個月但是您已經是史上提出復議案最多復議案最密集的行政院長而且也是第一位就預算案提出復議案的行政院長院長,您擔任過兩屆的立法委員\n過去也審核過預算現在擔任行政院長 您也編列預算提出預算案所以我相信您應該很了解在民主國家的國會跟行政單位就預算案的審查過程這個過程中的謀和溝通這個是民主的常態 您應該認同吧\n所以有時候民眾很期待的公共政策跟立法委員反映但是行政機關可能這個政策失當或是行政效率不彰\n那立法委員呢看到行政機關沒有很快速啟動希望他快馬加鞭的進行所以立法委員用比較霹靂雷霆的預算提議方式來催促行政機關加快動作但是呢提議不等於決議因為在這個過程中有雙方的溝通打磨的過程可是現在呢很多這個為了\n特殊的政黨惡鬥或者是各種甚至為了罷免故意扭曲預算的提議這個是很不道德的像本席看到我們台灣性暴力犯罪始終居高不下這個犯罪案件跟被害人人數一直攀升我們很多的狼師跟很多的狼教練一直沒辦法杜絕所以本席\n對於行政院性評處的預算呢本來提議刪除但是性評處來溝通之後那他也了解本席的代表民眾的期待所以他們也承諾要做所以我們最後我們只刪減了這個比去年新增的預算同時也希望行政院能夠盡快來做那有做我們就可以解凍那本席很\n很開心的看到在前幾天3月6號我們行政院性評處終於提出了性別暴力防制國家行動計畫所以這個就是很好的一個例子所以我們刪減凍結其實為的是什麼就是大家為了這個台灣為了民眾民眾的安全最重要這點你應該認同吧是的非常謝謝委員那是因為委員專業理性好溝通能理解\n謝謝不是每個委員都像委員這個樣子因為每個委員都像委員這樣子今天這場場景不會發生沒有那接下來呢本席也這個要再舉一個例就是像我們的詐騙本席在總諮詢也詢問過詐騙案民眾就是希望他不小心被詐騙他的錢可以趕快拿回來所以我們的行政單位目前對於台灣被詐騙的民眾錢可以拿回來的\n案例不多可是被騙的這個數字一直攀升所以我們為了讓相關單位能夠加速各種立法還有各種措施所以我們也做了一些凍結那只要行政單位好好的做我們這個絕對解凍絕對解凍可以盡快排案這個都沒問題所以這一塊我們也希望行政單位可以了解\n那接下來本席要就整個預算案您今天的附議案附議案的很多的理由本席要特別的提出來第一個行政院的附議案說刪減總數未宣讀審查後稅出總數有爭議\n我們很好奇的是我們看到我們三讀的時候主席有明確的宣告而且在114年1月21日立法院本院114卷第19期公報第129頁明確記載了記載了整個稅出部分總預算3兆1324億6899千元\n然後委員會三檢數是67億3763萬元加上院會的三檢數1068億6162萬9千元最後再加上通案統三的數不低於939億7500萬元所以合計這整個三檢數是2075億7425萬9千元\n那這個部分已經經過三讀宣告而且公報上也有明白的寫所以怎麼會說沒有確定的數字或總數送到行政院的文子裡面沒有總數的這個東西我們三讀通過而且這個公報都明確記載再來\n第一個剛剛本席已經講這個審查結論也許執政黨不滿意但是不能說沒有明確的總數那剛剛院長你說送來行政院的沒有數字可是在你們今天復議案的文字裡面第二大項\n你內容就寫啦114年度總預算案三減數2076億餘元所以你們還是知道總數的嘛第一個減法剛剛有講你減法你自然會減嘛這每個數字很清楚所以你們一定會知道總數再來你自己的副議案也特別有提到你都提到了三減總數了所以其實是有數字的這個是立法院的宣讀數\n這我認為它不是三讀數因為三讀沒有這個數字是宣讀數宣讀數裡面有爭議939億怎麼產生有爭議因為我們的會議主席宣告然後整個的公報也都有明確的記載那再來再來\n主計總署計算僅三減了1439億餘元附議案內容沒有具體說明這個如何計算來的這個部分我不需要您現在回答我們希望會後主計總署看看是不是可以回覆給我們你們怎麼計算出三減是1439億餘元那因為時間關係這個部分本席在這邊特別提出來\n那再來就是在這個立法院審查預算過程中的通案是哪些我相信您很清楚通案的科目有大陸地區的旅費國外旅費國內旅費水電費特別費房屋建築養護費等等委辦費一般事務費所以這些科目的性質院長你應該也很了解它的性質是什麼它的性質就是一些行政管理的成本概念嗎是的對好院長您認同所以\n這些三減數怎麼會有違權利分利原則因為權利分利原則是說我要你這個單位的錢去補那個單位沒有我們這個三減數沒有要你挖東牆補西牆我們要的是四個字準結支出我們要的是成本概念\n所以跟我們副議案所講的整體資源配置還有施政計畫內容影響行政權的行使其實並不抵觸但是報告委員這個通案我們算出來依照每個通案的項目後面的比例算出來只有能刪減303億接著接著我們\n副議案裡面還特別講到說這個會妨礙行政權的行使這個真的太危言聳聽因為您剛剛講到這個通案刪除的部分要自行調整636億餘元\n那院長您過去擔任過立委您應該知道我們的預算從委員會後來到黨團院會對不對在二讀會之前有所謂的協商但您看看剛剛不管您答覆民進黨的委員或是民進黨委員都一直在抨擊這史上這個預算怎麼樣怎麼樣但是你們忽略了過程\n這個過程在二讀會協商之前韓院長非常辛苦然後召集朝野協商院長您可能有所不知立法院請行政院主計機關還有各部會會同作業就是要確定統三金額如何分配到各部會結果呢\n我不知道你們是刻意還是真的是怎麼樣忽略行政院各單位跟民進黨團聯手已讀不回立法院幕僚以各種方式邀請行政機關確定分配額的作業置之不理\n這一塊說不通吧因為計算案出來包括剛剛講要追加的話不如就這個通過復議案各位院長院長這個過程就不合理當初其實要協調可是相關單位不來這個我應該要講這個也是\n中華民國憲政史上從來沒有過的過去立法院二讀會之前的協調協商都會如期進行結果我們也召開了結果全國都在看召開會議的時候這個執政黨的黨團幹部冗長發言癱瘓整個協商最後讓協商走不下去那現在那個行政單位又用這個當藉口\n這個不合理委員剛剛也說我們的姓名數有跟您說明溝通所以問題就解決了但是其他的委員不是這樣子好溝通啊那個是在這個之前沒錯所以他把那些對特定機關的特定的印象帶到整個協商裡面去做特定機關特定項目的刪減巨幅的刪減最大的問題就是在院長協商的時候我們看到太多次協商不下去\n很大問題是行政立法機關最重要的協商這個已經浪費很多時間沒有辦法往下走這個是很大的問題所以這個部分我想院長您這個部分不能夠歸咎在野黨那再來\n這個有講到覺得如果預算有不當支出的可以合理的刪減那所謂合理當然我們剛剛講很多的溝通嘛那所以不能夠關閉溝通那所以這個合理當然我相信你也認同不是行政院決定嘛那是這個立法院他絕對由立法院來最後裁決這個才是民主憲政那再來就是\n我們特別在附議案也講到說這個各機關的法定義務在審查過程中其實我們都有充分考量因為這個附議案裡面文字寫到說會影響法定機關正常運作以及履行其法定職務那我們現在秀一下同影片我們在統刪的部分也特別的有講我們有考量法律明文規定之初不刪外\n其餘桶山10%所以這個部分也因此 院長您知道嗎行政院的這一些動作我們在最近創造出一個新名詞叫做賣慘就是說其實很多情況大家要了解真實情況是如何\n再來附議案內容講到總三減數較前三年平均增加六倍三減程度衝擊到運作這點我想您了解總三減數可能是史上最高但是呢\n我們的預算數也是史上最高我想您應該知道我們的預算還有我們的預算增加的幅度急劇增加因為我們有2806億的新增事項項目是去年沒有的2806億\n這扣掉三兆一千三百二十五億就剩下兩兆八千五百一十九億就跟去年一樣啊這些內容我們在很多預算我都寫在裡面了但這一點大家都很厭我覺得委員都有意忽略這一段但是我們既然現在看結論就是\n你急劇增加你幅度增加史上最高你的總預算我們刪減了以後你還是史上最高所以這一塊我們希望這個外界也都可以了解史上最高是因為增加了2806億的新增項目您剛剛還有特別講到說院會\n就是我們整個的刪減以於原編列預算案數不合理來特別的舉例說包括監察院那以監察院來說過去民進黨也長期也認同就是說\n廢除監察院 這也是長期你們的主張嘛 不能用刪減預算來行使修改憲法的權利啊那會刪減成這樣其實是什麼 不行啊是所有委員帶著民眾的期許 是修憲民眾認為監察院長期功能不彰它淪為政治醜庸那所以預算被刪這是表達民眾的整體的憤怒\n那外交部呢外交部的免宣費被超過預算數三減超過的部分2953萬你覺得他怎麼處理這邊其實我們院長您不能裝傻我沒有裝我本來就傻嘛你再客氣我們院會有特別說明院會處理後的三減數不超過預算編列數這一塊我們都有特別在院會都有特別說明講了那麼多次你們都不聽\n史上最高是因為2,606億你就把我這段話\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.341 --> 00:11.204\n謝謝會議主席江副院長,本席有請卓院長請卓院長備詢許委員好院長,很遺憾在副議案碰面您擔任行政院長還不滿一年\n\n00:33.717 --> 00:53.084\n還不到十個月對,不到十個月但是您已經是史上提出復議案最多復議案最密集的行政院長而且也是第一位就預算案提出復議案的行政院長院長,您擔任過兩屆的立法委員\n\n00:55.535 --> 01:18.963\n過去也審核過預算現在擔任行政院長您也編列預算提出預算案所以我相信您應該很了解在民主國家的國會跟行政單位就預算案的審查過程這個過程中的謀和溝通這個是民主的常態您應該認同吧\n\n01:21.951 --> 01:32.085\n所以有時候民眾很期待的公共政策跟立法委員反映但是行政機關可能這個政策失當或是行政效率不彰\n\n01:33.646 --> 01:59.508\n那立法委員呢看到行政機關沒有很快速啟動希望他快馬加鞭的進行所以立法委員用比較霹靂雷霆的預算提議方式來催促行政機關加快動作但是呢提議不等於決議因為在這個過程中有雙方的溝通打磨的過程可是現在呢很多這個為了\n\n02:02.352 --> 02:26.839\n特殊的政黨惡鬥或者是各種甚至為了罷免故意扭曲預算的提議這個是很不道德的像本席看到我們台灣性暴力犯罪始終居高不下這個犯罪案件跟被害人人數一直攀升我們很多的狼師跟很多的狼教練一直沒辦法杜絕所以本席\n\n02:28.039 --> 02:56.399\n對於行政院性評處的預算呢本來提議刪除但是性評處來溝通之後那他也了解本席的代表民眾的期待所以他們也承諾要做所以我們最後我們只刪減了這個比去年新增的預算同時也希望行政院能夠盡快來做那有做我們就可以解凍那本席很\n\n02:57.079 --> 03:23.526\n很開心的看到在前幾天3月6號我們行政院性評處終於提出了性別暴力防制國家行動計畫所以這個就是很好的一個例子所以我們刪減凍結其實為的是什麼就是大家為了這個台灣為了民眾民眾的安全最重要這點你應該認同吧是的非常謝謝委員那是因為委員專業理性好溝通能理解\n\n03:23.986 --> 03:48.982\n謝謝不是每個委員都像委員這個樣子因為每個委員都像委員這樣子今天這場場景不會發生沒有那接下來呢本席也這個要再舉一個例就是像我們的詐騙本席在總諮詢也詢問過詐騙案民眾就是希望他不小心被詐騙他的錢可以趕快拿回來所以我們的行政單位目前對於台灣被詐騙的民眾錢可以拿回來的\n\n03:50.455 --> 04:12.122\n案例不多可是被騙的這個數字一直攀升所以我們為了讓相關單位能夠加速各種立法還有各種措施所以我們也做了一些凍結那只要行政單位好好的做我們這個絕對解凍絕對解凍可以盡快排案這個都沒問題所以這一塊我們也希望行政單位可以了解\n\n04:13.595 --> 04:28.167\n那接下來本席要就整個預算案您今天的附議案附議案的很多的理由本席要特別的提出來第一個行政院的附議案說刪減總數未宣讀審查後稅出總數有爭議\n\n04:34.872 --> 04:46.938\n我們很好奇的是我們看到我們三讀的時候主席有明確的宣告而且在114年1月21日立法院本院114卷第19期公報第129頁明確記載了記載了整個稅出部分總預算3兆1324億6899千元\n\n05:01.545 --> 05:06.186\n然後委員會三檢數是67億3763萬元加上院會的三檢數1068億6162萬9千元最後再加上通案統三的數不低於939億7500萬元所以合計這整個三檢數是2075億7425萬9千元\n\n05:31.328 --> 05:45.337\n那這個部分已經經過三讀宣告而且公報上也有明白的寫所以怎麼會說沒有確定的數字或總數送到行政院的文子裡面沒有總數的這個東西我們三讀通過而且這個公報都明確記載再來\n\n05:53.382 --> 06:08.641\n第一個剛剛本席已經講這個審查結論也許執政黨不滿意但是不能說沒有明確的總數那剛剛院長你說送來行政院的沒有數字可是在你們今天復議案的文字裡面第二大項\n\n06:09.542 --> 06:37.324\n你內容就寫啦114年度總預算案三減數2076億餘元所以你們還是知道總數的嘛第一個減法剛剛有講你減法你自然會減嘛這每個數字很清楚所以你們一定會知道總數再來你自己的副議案也特別有提到你都提到了三減總數了所以其實是有數字的這個是立法院的宣讀數\n\n06:38.485 --> 06:43.607\n這我認為它不是三讀數因為三讀沒有這個數字是宣讀數宣讀數裡面有爭議939億怎麼產生有爭議因為我們的會議主席宣告然後整個的公報也都有明確的記載那再來再來\n\n06:57.871 --> 07:15.435\n主計總署計算僅三減了1439億餘元附議案內容沒有具體說明這個如何計算來的這個部分我不需要您現在回答我們希望會後主計總署看看是不是可以回覆給我們你們怎麼計算出三減是1439億餘元那因為時間關係這個部分本席在這邊特別提出來\n\n07:22.950 --> 07:52.424\n那再來就是在這個立法院審查預算過程中的通案是哪些我相信您很清楚通案的科目有大陸地區的旅費國外旅費國內旅費水電費特別費房屋建築養護費等等委辦費一般事務費所以這些科目的性質院長你應該也很了解它的性質是什麼它的性質就是一些行政管理的成本概念嗎是的對好院長您認同所以\n\n07:53.424 --> 08:12.760\n這些三減數怎麼會有違權利分利原則因為權利分利原則是說我要你這個單位的錢去補那個單位沒有我們這個三減數沒有要你挖東牆補西牆我們要的是四個字準結支出我們要的是成本概念\n\n08:13.420 --> 08:30.512\n所以跟我們副議案所講的整體資源配置還有施政計畫內容影響行政權的行使其實並不抵觸但是報告委員這個通案我們算出來依照每個通案的項目後面的比例算出來只有能刪減303億接著接著我們\n\n08:35.575 --> 08:50.865\n副議案裡面還特別講到說這個會妨礙行政權的行使這個真的太危言聳聽因為您剛剛講到這個通案刪除的部分要自行調整636億餘元\n\n08:53.306 --> 09:18.642\n那院長您過去擔任過立委您應該知道我們的預算從委員會後來到黨團院會對不對在二讀會之前有所謂的協商但您看看剛剛不管您答覆民進黨的委員或是民進黨委員都一直在抨擊這史上這個預算怎麼樣怎麼樣但是你們忽略了過程\n\n09:19.849 --> 09:40.580\n這個過程在二讀會協商之前韓院長非常辛苦然後召集朝野協商院長您可能有所不知立法院請行政院主計機關還有各部會會同作業就是要確定統三金額如何分配到各部會結果呢\n\n09:41.857 --> 09:56.970\n我不知道你們是刻意還是真的是怎麼樣忽略行政院各單位跟民進黨團聯手已讀不回立法院幕僚以各種方式邀請行政機關確定分配額的作業置之不理\n\n09:58.107 --> 10:09.330\n這一塊說不通吧因為計算案出來包括剛剛講要追加的話不如就這個通過復議案各位院長院長這個過程就不合理當初其實要協調可是相關單位不來這個我應該要講這個也是\n\n10:20.433 --> 10:48.706\n中華民國憲政史上從來沒有過的過去立法院二讀會之前的協調協商都會如期進行結果我們也召開了結果全國都在看召開會議的時候這個執政黨的黨團幹部冗長發言癱瘓整個協商最後讓協商走不下去那現在那個行政單位又用這個當藉口\n\n10:49.765 --> 11:14.517\n這個不合理委員剛剛也說我們的姓名數有跟您說明溝通所以問題就解決了但是其他的委員不是這樣子好溝通啊那個是在這個之前沒錯所以他把那些對特定機關的特定的印象帶到整個協商裡面去做特定機關特定項目的刪減巨幅的刪減最大的問題就是在院長協商的時候我們看到太多次協商不下去\n\n11:15.557 --> 11:31.005\n很大問題是行政立法機關最重要的協商這個已經浪費很多時間沒有辦法往下走這個是很大的問題所以這個部分我想院長您這個部分不能夠歸咎在野黨那再來\n\n11:36.848 --> 12:03.283\n這個有講到覺得如果預算有不當支出的可以合理的刪減那所謂合理當然我們剛剛講很多的溝通嘛那所以不能夠關閉溝通那所以這個合理當然我相信你也認同不是行政院決定嘛那是這個立法院他絕對由立法院來最後裁決這個才是民主憲政那再來就是\n\n12:06.411 --> 12:35.694\n我們特別在附議案也講到說這個各機關的法定義務在審查過程中其實我們都有充分考量因為這個附議案裡面文字寫到說會影響法定機關正常運作以及履行其法定職務那我們現在秀一下同影片我們在統刪的部分也特別的有講我們有考量法律明文規定之初不刪外\n\n12:36.488 --> 12:56.747\n其餘桶山10%所以這個部分也因此院長您知道嗎行政院的這一些動作我們在最近創造出一個新名詞叫做賣慘就是說其實很多情況大家要了解真實情況是如何\n\n12:58.478 --> 13:17.088\n再來附議案內容講到總三減數較前三年平均增加六倍三減程度衝擊到運作這點我想您了解總三減數可能是史上最高但是呢\n\n13:18.459 --> 13:33.120\n我們的預算數也是史上最高我想您應該知道我們的預算還有我們的預算增加的幅度急劇增加因為我們有2806億的新增事項項目是去年沒有的2806億\n\n13:35.243 --> 13:50.897\n這扣掉三兆一千三百二十五億就剩下兩兆八千五百一十九億就跟去年一樣啊這些內容我們在很多預算我都寫在裡面了但這一點大家都很厭我覺得委員都有意忽略這一段但是我們既然現在看結論就是\n\n13:51.698 --> 14:06.623\n你急劇增加你幅度增加史上最高你的總預算我們刪減了以後你還是史上最高所以這一塊我們希望這個外界也都可以了解史上最高是因為增加了2806億的新增項目您剛剛還有特別講到說院會\n\n14:11.425 --> 14:26.547\n就是我們整個的刪減以於原編列預算案數不合理來特別的舉例說包括監察院那以監察院來說過去民進黨也長期也認同就是說\n\n14:28.863 --> 14:50.532\n廢除監察院這也是長期你們的主張嘛不能用刪減預算來行使修改憲法的權利啊那會刪減成這樣其實是什麼不行啊是所有委員帶著民眾的期許是修憲民眾認為監察院長期功能不彰它淪為政治醜庸那所以預算被刪這是表達民眾的整體的憤怒\n\n14:52.173 --> 15:20.284\n那外交部呢外交部的免宣費被超過預算數三減超過的部分2953萬你覺得他怎麼處理這邊其實我們院長您不能裝傻我沒有裝我本來就傻嘛你再客氣我們院會有特別說明院會處理後的三減數不超過預算編列數這一塊我們都有特別在院會都有特別說明講了那麼多次你們都不聽\n\n15:21.334 --> 15:24.039\n史上最高是因為2,606億你就把我這段話\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.341,"end":11.204,"text":"謝謝會議主席江副院長,本席有請卓院長請卓院長備詢許委員好院長,很遺憾在副議案碰面您擔任行政院長還不滿一年"},{"start":33.717,"end":53.084,"text":"還不到十個月對,不到十個月但是您已經是史上提出復議案最多復議案最密集的行政院長而且也是第一位就預算案提出復議案的行政院長院長,您擔任過兩屆的立法委員"},{"start":55.535,"end":78.963,"text":"過去也審核過預算現在擔任行政院長 您也編列預算提出預算案所以我相信您應該很了解在民主國家的國會跟行政單位就預算案的審查過程這個過程中的謀和溝通這個是民主的常態 您應該認同吧"},{"start":81.951,"end":92.085,"text":"所以有時候民眾很期待的公共政策跟立法委員反映但是行政機關可能這個政策失當或是行政效率不彰"},{"start":93.646,"end":119.508,"text":"那立法委員呢看到行政機關沒有很快速啟動希望他快馬加鞭的進行所以立法委員用比較霹靂雷霆的預算提議方式來催促行政機關加快動作但是呢提議不等於決議因為在這個過程中有雙方的溝通打磨的過程可是現在呢很多這個為了"},{"start":122.352,"end":146.839,"text":"特殊的政黨惡鬥或者是各種甚至為了罷免故意扭曲預算的提議這個是很不道德的像本席看到我們台灣性暴力犯罪始終居高不下這個犯罪案件跟被害人人數一直攀升我們很多的狼師跟很多的狼教練一直沒辦法杜絕所以本席"},{"start":148.039,"end":176.399,"text":"對於行政院性評處的預算呢本來提議刪除但是性評處來溝通之後那他也了解本席的代表民眾的期待所以他們也承諾要做所以我們最後我們只刪減了這個比去年新增的預算同時也希望行政院能夠盡快來做那有做我們就可以解凍那本席很"},{"start":177.079,"end":203.526,"text":"很開心的看到在前幾天3月6號我們行政院性評處終於提出了性別暴力防制國家行動計畫所以這個就是很好的一個例子所以我們刪減凍結其實為的是什麼就是大家為了這個台灣為了民眾民眾的安全最重要這點你應該認同吧是的非常謝謝委員那是因為委員專業理性好溝通能理解"},{"start":203.986,"end":228.982,"text":"謝謝不是每個委員都像委員這個樣子因為每個委員都像委員這樣子今天這場場景不會發生沒有那接下來呢本席也這個要再舉一個例就是像我們的詐騙本席在總諮詢也詢問過詐騙案民眾就是希望他不小心被詐騙他的錢可以趕快拿回來所以我們的行政單位目前對於台灣被詐騙的民眾錢可以拿回來的"},{"start":230.455,"end":252.122,"text":"案例不多可是被騙的這個數字一直攀升所以我們為了讓相關單位能夠加速各種立法還有各種措施所以我們也做了一些凍結那只要行政單位好好的做我們這個絕對解凍絕對解凍可以盡快排案這個都沒問題所以這一塊我們也希望行政單位可以了解"},{"start":253.595,"end":268.167,"text":"那接下來本席要就整個預算案您今天的附議案附議案的很多的理由本席要特別的提出來第一個行政院的附議案說刪減總數未宣讀審查後稅出總數有爭議"},{"start":274.872,"end":286.938,"text":"我們很好奇的是我們看到我們三讀的時候主席有明確的宣告而且在114年1月21日立法院本院114卷第19期公報第129頁明確記載了記載了整個稅出部分總預算3兆1324億6899千元"},{"start":301.545,"end":306.186,"text":"然後委員會三檢數是67億3763萬元加上院會的三檢數1068億6162萬9千元最後再加上通案統三的數不低於939億7500萬元所以合計這整個三檢數是2075億7425萬9千元"},{"start":331.328,"end":345.337,"text":"那這個部分已經經過三讀宣告而且公報上也有明白的寫所以怎麼會說沒有確定的數字或總數送到行政院的文子裡面沒有總數的這個東西我們三讀通過而且這個公報都明確記載再來"},{"start":353.382,"end":368.641,"text":"第一個剛剛本席已經講這個審查結論也許執政黨不滿意但是不能說沒有明確的總數那剛剛院長你說送來行政院的沒有數字可是在你們今天復議案的文字裡面第二大項"},{"start":369.542,"end":397.324,"text":"你內容就寫啦114年度總預算案三減數2076億餘元所以你們還是知道總數的嘛第一個減法剛剛有講你減法你自然會減嘛這每個數字很清楚所以你們一定會知道總數再來你自己的副議案也特別有提到你都提到了三減總數了所以其實是有數字的這個是立法院的宣讀數"},{"start":398.485,"end":403.607,"text":"這我認為它不是三讀數因為三讀沒有這個數字是宣讀數宣讀數裡面有爭議939億怎麼產生有爭議因為我們的會議主席宣告然後整個的公報也都有明確的記載那再來再來"},{"start":417.871,"end":435.435,"text":"主計總署計算僅三減了1439億餘元附議案內容沒有具體說明這個如何計算來的這個部分我不需要您現在回答我們希望會後主計總署看看是不是可以回覆給我們你們怎麼計算出三減是1439億餘元那因為時間關係這個部分本席在這邊特別提出來"},{"start":442.95,"end":472.424,"text":"那再來就是在這個立法院審查預算過程中的通案是哪些我相信您很清楚通案的科目有大陸地區的旅費國外旅費國內旅費水電費特別費房屋建築養護費等等委辦費一般事務費所以這些科目的性質院長你應該也很了解它的性質是什麼它的性質就是一些行政管理的成本概念嗎是的對好院長您認同所以"},{"start":473.424,"end":492.76,"text":"這些三減數怎麼會有違權利分利原則因為權利分利原則是說我要你這個單位的錢去補那個單位沒有我們這個三減數沒有要你挖東牆補西牆我們要的是四個字準結支出我們要的是成本概念"},{"start":493.42,"end":510.512,"text":"所以跟我們副議案所講的整體資源配置還有施政計畫內容影響行政權的行使其實並不抵觸但是報告委員這個通案我們算出來依照每個通案的項目後面的比例算出來只有能刪減303億接著接著我們"},{"start":515.575,"end":530.865,"text":"副議案裡面還特別講到說這個會妨礙行政權的行使這個真的太危言聳聽因為您剛剛講到這個通案刪除的部分要自行調整636億餘元"},{"start":533.306,"end":558.642,"text":"那院長您過去擔任過立委您應該知道我們的預算從委員會後來到黨團院會對不對在二讀會之前有所謂的協商但您看看剛剛不管您答覆民進黨的委員或是民進黨委員都一直在抨擊這史上這個預算怎麼樣怎麼樣但是你們忽略了過程"},{"start":559.849,"end":580.58,"text":"這個過程在二讀會協商之前韓院長非常辛苦然後召集朝野協商院長您可能有所不知立法院請行政院主計機關還有各部會會同作業就是要確定統三金額如何分配到各部會結果呢"},{"start":581.857,"end":596.97,"text":"我不知道你們是刻意還是真的是怎麼樣忽略行政院各單位跟民進黨團聯手已讀不回立法院幕僚以各種方式邀請行政機關確定分配額的作業置之不理"},{"start":598.107,"end":609.33,"text":"這一塊說不通吧因為計算案出來包括剛剛講要追加的話不如就這個通過復議案各位院長院長這個過程就不合理當初其實要協調可是相關單位不來這個我應該要講這個也是"},{"start":620.433,"end":648.706,"text":"中華民國憲政史上從來沒有過的過去立法院二讀會之前的協調協商都會如期進行結果我們也召開了結果全國都在看召開會議的時候這個執政黨的黨團幹部冗長發言癱瘓整個協商最後讓協商走不下去那現在那個行政單位又用這個當藉口"},{"start":649.765,"end":674.517,"text":"這個不合理委員剛剛也說我們的姓名數有跟您說明溝通所以問題就解決了但是其他的委員不是這樣子好溝通啊那個是在這個之前沒錯所以他把那些對特定機關的特定的印象帶到整個協商裡面去做特定機關特定項目的刪減巨幅的刪減最大的問題就是在院長協商的時候我們看到太多次協商不下去"},{"start":675.557,"end":691.005,"text":"很大問題是行政立法機關最重要的協商這個已經浪費很多時間沒有辦法往下走這個是很大的問題所以這個部分我想院長您這個部分不能夠歸咎在野黨那再來"},{"start":696.848,"end":723.283,"text":"這個有講到覺得如果預算有不當支出的可以合理的刪減那所謂合理當然我們剛剛講很多的溝通嘛那所以不能夠關閉溝通那所以這個合理當然我相信你也認同不是行政院決定嘛那是這個立法院他絕對由立法院來最後裁決這個才是民主憲政那再來就是"},{"start":726.411,"end":755.694,"text":"我們特別在附議案也講到說這個各機關的法定義務在審查過程中其實我們都有充分考量因為這個附議案裡面文字寫到說會影響法定機關正常運作以及履行其法定職務那我們現在秀一下同影片我們在統刪的部分也特別的有講我們有考量法律明文規定之初不刪外"},{"start":756.488,"end":776.747,"text":"其餘桶山10%所以這個部分也因此 院長您知道嗎行政院的這一些動作我們在最近創造出一個新名詞叫做賣慘就是說其實很多情況大家要了解真實情況是如何"},{"start":778.478,"end":797.088,"text":"再來附議案內容講到總三減數較前三年平均增加六倍三減程度衝擊到運作這點我想您了解總三減數可能是史上最高但是呢"},{"start":798.459,"end":813.12,"text":"我們的預算數也是史上最高我想您應該知道我們的預算還有我們的預算增加的幅度急劇增加因為我們有2806億的新增事項項目是去年沒有的2806億"},{"start":815.243,"end":830.897,"text":"這扣掉三兆一千三百二十五億就剩下兩兆八千五百一十九億就跟去年一樣啊這些內容我們在很多預算我都寫在裡面了但這一點大家都很厭我覺得委員都有意忽略這一段但是我們既然現在看結論就是"},{"start":831.698,"end":846.623,"text":"你急劇增加你幅度增加史上最高你的總預算我們刪減了以後你還是史上最高所以這一塊我們希望這個外界也都可以了解史上最高是因為增加了2806億的新增項目您剛剛還有特別講到說院會"},{"start":851.425,"end":866.547,"text":"就是我們整個的刪減以於原編列預算案數不合理來特別的舉例說包括監察院那以監察院來說過去民進黨也長期也認同就是說"},{"start":868.863,"end":890.532,"text":"廢除監察院 這也是長期你們的主張嘛 不能用刪減預算來行使修改憲法的權利啊那會刪減成這樣其實是什麼 不行啊是所有委員帶著民眾的期許 是修憲民眾認為監察院長期功能不彰它淪為政治醜庸那所以預算被刪這是表達民眾的整體的憤怒"},{"start":892.173,"end":920.284,"text":"那外交部呢外交部的免宣費被超過預算數三減超過的部分2953萬你覺得他怎麼處理這邊其實我們院長您不能裝傻我沒有裝我本來就傻嘛你再客氣我們院會有特別說明院會處理後的三減數不超過預算編列數這一塊我們都有特別在院會都有特別說明講了那麼多次你們都不聽"},{"start":921.334,"end":924.039,"text":"史上最高是因為2,606億你就把我這段話"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":825,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時24分）謝謝會議主席江副院長，本席有請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：院長，很遺憾在覆議案碰面，您擔任行政院長還不滿一年嘛？但是……"],["卓院長榮泰：還不到10個月。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，不到10個月，但是您已經是史上提出覆議案最多……"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：覆議案最密集的行政院長，而且也是第一位就預算案提出覆議案的行政院長。院長擔任過兩屆立法委員，過去也審核過預算，現在擔任行政院長，您也編列預算、提出預算案，所以我相信您應該很了解，在民主國家的國會跟行政單位就預算案的審查過程，這個過程中的磨合、溝通是民主的常態，您應該認同吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，所以有時候民眾很期待的公共政策，他跟立法委員反映，但是行政機關可能政策失當或是行政效率不彰，立法委員看到行政機關沒有很快速啟動，希望它快馬加鞭地進行，所以立法委員用比較霹靂雷霆的預算提議方式來催促行政機關加快動作，但是提議不等於決議，因為在這個過程中有雙方的溝通、打磨的過程。可是現在有很多為了特殊的政黨惡鬥，或者是各種……甚至為了罷免，故意扭曲預算的提議，這個是很不道德的。","像本席看到臺灣性暴力犯罪始終居高不下，犯罪案件跟被害人人數一直攀升，很多的狼師跟很多的狼教練一直沒辦法杜絕，所以本席對於行政院性平處的預算本來提議刪除，但是性平處來溝通之後，也了解本席代表民眾的期待，他們也承諾要做，所以我們最後只刪減了比去年新增的預算，同時也希望行政院能夠儘快來做，凍結的部分有做，我們就可以解凍。本席很開心看到在前幾天3月6號，行政院性平處終於提出了性別暴力防治國家行動計畫，這個就是很好的一個例子。所以我們刪減、凍結為的是什麼？大家是為了臺灣、為了民眾，民眾的安全最重要，這點您應該認同吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，非常謝謝委員，那是因為委員專業、理性、好溝通、能理解……"],["徐委員欣瑩：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是每個委員都像委員這個樣子，如果每個委員都像委員這樣子，今天這場場景不會發生。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，接下來本席也要再舉一個例，像詐騙，本席在總質詢也詢問過詐騙案。民眾不小心被詐騙，他希望他的錢可以趕快拿回來，所以我們的行政單位目前對於臺灣被詐騙的民眾，錢可以拿回來的案例不多，可是被騙的數字一直攀升，我們為了讓相關單位能夠加速各種立法還有各種措施，所以我們也做了一些凍結，只要行政單位好好地做，我們絕對解凍，可以儘快排案，這個都沒問題，所以這一塊我們也希望行政單位可以了解。","接下來本席要就整個預算案，您今天的覆議案有很多的理由，本席要特別提出來，第一個，行政院的覆議案說刪減總數未宣讀，審查後歲出總數有爭議。我們很好奇的是，我們看到三讀的時候主席有明確的宣告，而且在114年1月21日立法院公報第114卷第19期第129頁，明確記載了整個歲出部分總預算為3兆1,324億6,890萬9,000元，各委員會的刪減數是67億3,763萬元，加上院會的刪減數1,068億6,162萬9,000元，最後再加上通案統刪數不低於939億7,500萬元，所以合計整個刪減數是2,075億7,425萬9,000元，這個部分已經經過三讀宣告，而且公報上也有明白的寫，所以怎麼會說沒有確定的數字或總數？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，送到行政院的文字裡面是沒有總數的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，這個東西……"],["卓院長榮泰：是沒有總數的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們三讀通過……"],["卓院長榮泰：並沒有這樣的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：而且公報都明確記載。再來，第一個，剛剛本席已經講，這個審查結論也許執政黨不滿意，但是不能說沒有明確的總數。剛剛院長你說送來行政院的沒有數字，可是在你們今天覆議案的文字裡面，第二大項的內容就有寫，114年度總預算案刪減數2,076億餘元……"],["卓院長榮泰：我要解釋、我要解釋……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你們還是知道總數的嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：這是宣讀數。"],["徐委員欣瑩：第一個是減法，剛剛有講，減法你自然會減嘛！這每個數字很清楚，所以你們一定會知道總數。再來，你自己的覆議案也特別提到刪減總數了，所以其實是有數字的。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席在這裡反駁……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是立法院的宣讀數，在我認為它不是三讀數，因為三讀沒有這個數字，是宣讀數。"],["徐委員欣瑩：公報上都明確，而且……"],["卓院長榮泰：宣讀數裡面有爭議。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以……"],["卓院長榮泰：939億怎麼產生有爭議……"],["徐委員欣瑩：院長，那是您的認知，因為我們的會議有主席宣告，然後整個公報也都有明確的記載。再來，主計總處計算僅刪減了1,439億餘元，覆議案內容沒有具體說明這個如何計算來的，這個部分我不需要您現在回答，我們希望會後主計總處看看是不是可以回復給我們……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為大院來的沒有凍結數。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們怎麼計算出刪減數是1,439億餘元？因為時間關係，這個部分本席在這邊特別提出來。再來，立法院審查預算過程中的通案是哪些？我相信您很清楚，通案的科目有大陸地區的旅費、國外旅費、國內旅費、水電費、特別費、房屋建築養護費、委辦費、一般事務費等等，所以這些科目的性質，院長，你應該也很了解它的性質是什麼，就是一些行政管理的成本概念嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，院長您認同，所以這些刪減數怎麼會有違權力分立原則？因為權力分立原則是要這個單位的錢去補那個單位，但沒有，這個刪減數沒有要你挖東牆補西牆，我們要的是「撙節支出」四個字、我們要的是成本概念，所以跟覆議案所講的整體資源配置及施政計畫內容、影響行政權的行使，其實並不牴觸。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是報告委員，這個通案我們算出來，依照每個通案項目後面的比例算出來只有刪減303億元。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個本席在後面會再提。"],["卓院長榮泰：刪了303億。"],["徐委員欣瑩：接著，覆議案裡面還特別講到會妨礙行政權的行使，這個真的太危言聳聽，因為您剛剛講到通案刪除的部分要自行調整636億餘元。院長過去擔任過立委，您應該知道預算從委員會後來到黨團、院會，對不對？在二讀會之前有所謂的協商，但您看看，剛剛不管您答復民進黨的委員，或是民進黨委員都一直在抨擊這預算史上怎麼樣、怎麼樣；但是你們忽略了過程，這個過程在二讀會協商之前，韓院長非常辛苦，然後召集朝野協商。院長，您可能有所不知，立法院請行政院主計機關還有各部會會同作業，就是要確定統刪金額如何分配到各部會，結果我不知道你們是刻意還是真的是怎麼樣忽略，行政院各單位跟民進黨團聯手，已讀不回，立法院幕僚以各種方式邀請行政機關確定分配額的作業，卻被置之不理，這一塊說不通吧！"],["卓院長榮泰：並非如此。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為預算案出來，包括剛剛講要追加的話……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不如就通過覆議案，各位……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你剛剛也說……"],["徐委員欣瑩：院長、院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的性平處有跟委員溝通啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個過程就不合理，當初……"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛委員也自己說啦！我們性平處……"],["徐委員欣瑩：當初其實要協調，可是相關單位不來，這部分我應該要講，這個也是……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是、不是、不是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：中華民國憲政史上從來沒有過的，過去立法院二讀會之前的協調、協商……"],["卓院長榮泰：有啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：都會如期進行，結果我們也召開了，全國都在看，召開會議的時候，執政黨的黨團幹部冗長發言，癱瘓整個協商，最後讓協商走不下去，現在行政單位又用這個當藉口，這個不合理吧。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員剛剛也說我們的性平處有跟您說明、溝通，所以問題就解決了，但是其他的委員不是這樣子好溝通啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：那個是在這個之前沒錯……"],["卓院長榮泰：對不對？所以他把那些對特定機關的特定印象帶到整個協商裡面，去做特定機關、特定項目的刪減，巨幅的刪減，這才是造成這些問題啊。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，其實最大問題就是在院長協商的時候，我們看到太多次協商不下去，很大問題是行政、立法機關最重要的協商已經浪費很多時間，沒有辦法往下走，這個是很大的問題，所以我想院長這個部分不能夠歸咎在野黨……"],["卓院長榮泰：我不會像委員這樣質疑院長的協商，我不會這樣質疑他啦！院長很努力。"],["徐委員欣瑩：再來，有講到覺得如果預算有不當支出的可以合理地刪減。所謂「合理」，我們剛剛講需要很多的溝通，所以不能夠關閉溝通，所以這個合理，當然我相信你也認同不是行政院決定，絕對由立法院來最後裁決，這個才是民主憲政。","再來就是我們特別在覆議案也講到說各機關的法定義務，在審查過程中，其實我們都有充分考量，因為覆議案裡面文字寫到說會影響法定機關正常運作，以及履行其法定職務。我們現在秀一下投影片，我們在統刪的部分也特別有講，我們有考量法律明文規定支出不刪外，其餘統刪10%，所以這個部分，院長您知道嗎？行政院的這一些動作，我們在最近創造出一個新名詞叫做「賣慘」，就是說其實很多情況，大家要了解真實情況是如何。","覆議案內容講到說總刪減數較前3年平均增加6倍，刪減程度衝擊到運作。這點我想您瞭解，總刪減數可能是史上最高，但是，我們的預算數也是史上最高，我想您應該知道，我們的預算還有預算增加的幅度急劇增加，這也是史上最高。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為我們有2,806億的新增事項，這些項目是去年沒有的，2,806億耶！這扣掉3兆1,325億，就剩下2兆8,519億，這就跟去年一樣啊。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這些內容我們在很多預算……"],["卓院長榮泰：我都寫在裡面了，但這點大家都忽略，我覺得委員都有意忽略這一段。"],["徐委員欣瑩：3、4個月過程的溝通，但是我們現在看結論就是急劇增加、幅度增加史上最高，總預算我們刪減了以後還是史上最高，所以這一塊我們希望外界也都可以瞭解……"],["卓院長榮泰：史上最高是因為增加了2,806億的新增項目。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後，您剛剛還有特別講到說院會整個的刪減已逾原編列預算案數，不合理，特別舉例說，包括監察院，以監察院來說，過去民進黨也長期認同廢除監察院，這也是長期你們的主張，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：不能用刪減預算來行使修改憲法的權利啊，這不行啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：會刪減成這樣，其實是所有委員帶著民眾的期許……"],["卓院長榮泰：修憲是修憲，審預算是審預算。"],["徐委員欣瑩：民眾認為監察院長期功能不彰，它淪為政治酬庸，所以預算被刪，這是表達民眾整體的憤怒。"],["卓院長榮泰：那外交部呢？外交部的媒宣費被超過預算數刪減，超過的部分2,953萬，你覺得他怎麼處理？"],["徐委員欣瑩：這邊其實我們……院長，您不能裝傻啊。"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有裝，我本來就傻嘛。"],["徐委員欣瑩：您太客氣了。院會有特別說明，院會處理後的刪減數不超過預算編列數，這一塊院會都有特別說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：講了那麼多次，你們都不聽，史上最高是因為2,806億，你就把我這段話當作空氣啊，所以不是裝傻，對不起，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員。","下一位我們請林岱樺委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","林倩綺","范雲","林國成","賴瑞隆","王定宇","徐欣瑩","林岱樺","許宇甄","郭國文","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","葛如鈞"],"page_start":191,"meetingDate":["2025-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1142501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第2次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案」覆議案","agenda_id":"1142501_00019"}}}