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\"start\": 970.058, \"end\": 970.259, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 970.259, \"end\": 975.282, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 975.282, \"end\": 975.302, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:13,497 --> 00:00:19,805\n主席謝謝麻煩請卓院長還有衛福部邱部長麻煩再請卓院長衛福部邱部長請\n\n2\n00:00:29,841 --> 00:00:54,506\n紅委員好好院長好部長好來部長我想先請教我這過年結束之後最近我要先幫我們的醫護人員來講講話因為醫護人員真的非常的辛苦尤其疫情期間的時候我們看到很多醫護人員在地線那撐過之後到現在我們也持續希望能夠給醫護人員合理的一個待遇可是\n\n3\n00:00:55,406 --> 00:01:13,932\n醫護人員的短缺跟勞動的條件其實是很大的一個問題它跟預算來講沒有那麼直接的關係因為最大的離職潮其實是在疫情之後跟去年的六月所以醫護人員他希望的是能夠改善醫護的勞動空間勞動條件是不是是的我想改善醫護\n\n4\n00:01:19,212 --> 00:01:37,132\n工作條件其實是政府一直在努力的那行政院在所以他是長期以來的一個問題過去您擔任立法委員的時候也很關心是對不對是那就沒有存在是說因為說什麼刪預算凍結預算而造成醫護人員的這個負擔嘛\n\n5\n00:01:39,975 --> 00:02:02,364\n因為過去預算一樣是照常給你們使用啊過去八年民進黨政府不是每一次國會多數的時候都支持衛福部的預算但是最大的離職潮就在疫情之後跟去年的六月那醫護人員的辛苦到底誰來幫他們發聲報告委員如果預算受到凍結或者是\n\n6\n00:02:04,027 --> 00:02:26,715\n其實還是有影響到醫護人員環境的改善我現在在講的是之前的狀況你剛剛也已經承認了嘛是不是之前就已經有離職潮這是不是長期的問題所以我們是不是應該要一起努力來解決長期的問題當然當然是來部長我再請教一下我一定要利用這個機會讓你說明清楚醫護人員的月薪有7萬塊平均嗎\n\n7\n00:02:30,228 --> 00:02:33,992\n我們的衛福部的粉專講說護理師的月薪有七萬\n\n8\n00:02:35,604 --> 00:03:01,023\n結果雞成整個大炸鍋我們看一下新聞裡面報導講說醫護人員紛紛表達不滿認為衛福部是誘導誤導而且這樣反而是汙名化好像讓醫護人員覺得是說他們坐領高薪讓外界覺得是有對立覺得說他們坐領高薪但實際上他們薪水有那麼多嗎所以甚至有人講這不知道是哪一個大腦袋想出來的來\n\n9\n00:03:04,666 --> 00:03:32,265\n月薪是行情價嗎是灌水灌到離譜的價格還有現在有沒有看到護理師在網上發起什麼運動發起他貼出他的薪資單他把他的薪資單貼出來每一個護理師都講說抱歉我拉低了平均抱歉我沒有達到7萬那我們將請教如果護理師沒有達到7萬的話衛福部是不是要編列預算補足\n\n10\n00:03:33,410 --> 00:03:55,195\n部長給你一個機會澄清一下護理師的待遇有平均月薪7萬元嗎報告委員醫護同仁真的工作非常辛苦他們的待遇如果能夠一直提升是我們很期待的事情第二個這個網站上面所呈現的是一個人收入除以12他是由在112年11月的時候由\n\n11\n00:03:58,995 --> 00:04:23,958\n縣市衛生府邀請各地的醫院他把他的整個說他們護理人員的一個就是薪資包括固定跟非固定當然這裡面可能有包括獎金年終獎金等等的除以12出來的一個數目那我問過幾乎問過所有的重要的尤其是北部不管我問台大北醫什麼都滿些場跟說你們的你們這個報告的\n\n12\n00:04:25,579 --> 00:04:34,743\n薪資是不是真實的他們也說絕對是真實的我昨天有問新光醫院的院長他說他絕對是真實的所以現在就是這些護理人員他們說話他是一種雷霜而且這是\n\n13\n00:04:40,024 --> 00:04:56,729\n等於是平均值那有不同的第一個這是醫院的那可能醫院本身有不同的病房以外所以也有不同病房的狀況也有不同病房的狀況也有不同人班的狀況也有日班夜班的狀況\n\n14\n00:04:58,370 --> 00:05:25,880\n我們現在只要問的是護理人員他現在被貼上一個標籤了這個標籤是從衛福部來的衛福部告訴大家是說護理人員平均月薪有7萬請教有嗎我想這是醫院爆出來的一個整個整個年初的時候這是衛福部的粉絲專頁貼的那你現在要推給醫院公開的大家都可以上去查如果醫院有不遵時的他就有他可能就會有問題而且這個當時的目的不是說去比\n\n15\n00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:43,638\n當時的目的是希望說我們衛福部有沒有去查證護理人員如果說知道每一家醫院他的待遇是多少我們衛福部有沒有去查證我們衛福部有沒有去理解現在我怎麼感覺你好像站在知方的立場在講話我現在希望的是幫我們衛福人員來爭取應有幫助力不應該被污名化\n\n16\n00:05:48,603 --> 00:06:12,083\n我完完全全就是希望把醫護跟著政府一直努力把醫護的工作環境弄好就是因為這樣子所以說才不應該用衛福部的粉絲專業來這樣做部長我時間有限我覺得你剛剛沒有辦法回答問題因為這是衛福部的粉絲專業貼出來的而你現在居然全部都推給醫院醫院的報告是資方的報告\n\n17\n00:06:13,733 --> 00:06:34,801\n講不客氣的資方給你們的資料你有沒有去調查讓牢方代表牢方的醫護人員他們都說他們沒有那中間的落差在哪裡我們不停的在跟護理師公會或者公會做溝通我想不要讓我們的院長在那裡我們一定會很清晰來努力改善本席很認真的跟您說\n\n18\n00:06:36,348 --> 00:06:50,022\n看得到這是你衛福部部長的態度但是很實在的話過去到現在本席也非常多的護理工會也來跟我澄清絕對他們的月薪沒有到這樣子甚至所謂的\n\n19\n00:06:51,892 --> 00:07:20,190\n五萬塊六萬五都沒有辦法達到一個月平均是四萬多塊而這樣的狀況其實他們是用他們的熱情他們的時間來去支撐但我們更希望的是給他們更好的勞動條件我最後請教一下三班互併比我們的草案修正本會期能不能提出來行政院的版本有關三班互併比我們現在是用獎勵的\n\n20\n00:07:21,141 --> 00:07:41,853\n那不管是醫學中心當初在選舉的時候是誰講說一定要入法才有效力因為這個當初在選舉的時間是誰講兩年拚入法四年拚實行那現在我這個會期因為醫療的院所也需要一個這個會期能不能出來我只問能不能\n\n21\n00:07:42,968 --> 00:08:02,659\n跟委員報告三方貨幣比剛剛部長說我們先用獎勵的方式在制度完全形成之前獎勵的方式達到直接給護理人員再來就是獎勵達標的意願所以看起來是沒有辦法出來未來我們是朝向更完整的一個法制面不過我今天肯定委員這樣的質詢的內容\n\n22\n00:08:05,780 --> 00:08:22,067\n統計數字最怕的就是沒有達到這個數字的會覺得被剝奪了但是這個7萬塊他到底是中位數還是什麼方式計算應該要標示清楚他所說的是一年的收入除以12所以有很多固定跟非固定但是一定要說明清楚\n\n23\n00:08:22,907 --> 00:08:38,465\n收入高於7萬塊的護理人員不會有意見不過我覺得那個是比較少的比較多的人他是沒有辦法達到但是平均下來看他會達到接近這樣的數字但是還是要說明清楚讓我透過今天這樣的方式請衛福部要跟護理人員護理師們\n\n24\n00:08:39,566 --> 00:09:03,325\n充分說明清楚這個不是用這樣的數字來跟社會做一個假象的宣示而是大家要有一個共鳴您講的完全就是本席為什麼要求部長你用粉絲專業帶風向讓外界標籤汙名其實這個是不道德的本席更希望的是看到真真實實的我們一起努力好部長請回院長感謝\n\n25\n00:09:04,775 --> 00:09:09,591\n本席現在要講的是過去到現在我擔任五年的立法委員\n\n26\n00:09:11,038 --> 00:09:38,140\n資歷沒有很深但是我每一次部會首長來我辦公室討論預算的時候我一定告訴他們一件事情預算當用則用當審則審但我身為在野黨的立委我不會要馬而好又要馬而不吃草該給的預算合理的預算我們會支持但重點是預算要花在刀口上來院長今天早上我也聆聽了您的報告也看了早上的一個質詢\n\n27\n00:09:39,738 --> 00:09:58,861\n很遺憾你還是提出了復議你一直強調說這是憲政給你的一個權利但是在今年的二月的時候賴清德總統召開的五院的院長的會議時候韓國院長江啟臣副院長也代表立法院出席並且也都有釋出善意\n\n28\n00:09:59,341 --> 00:10:22,288\n包括韓國院長也特別提到說其實可以用追加預算的方式我們讓現在已經通過預算能夠先行如果真的有自愛難行或說真的有不足之處用追加預算的方式大家互相來溝通溝通溝通我們互相的來討論可以心平氣和對話但很顯然的你還是不願意接受所以還是提了復議\n\n29\n00:10:23,368 --> 00:10:45,873\n那也許明天才化法的詢答完畢之後再投票有可能這兩個復議案總預算跟才化法復議案也沒有辦法通過到時候你的任內還不到一年的任期已經五次復議失敗了院長你自己怎麼看五連敗的院長這樣子好看嗎\n\n30\n00:10:46,849 --> 00:11:05,874\n所以我說過這是富裕最多的行政院但是富裕不是好不好看的問題而是我們身為憲政機關唯一可以提出富裕的機關來院長那我再請教如果說每一次你都講自愛難行每一次都富裕沒有通過那你還是好官我自為之\n\n31\n00:11:07,452 --> 00:11:23,244\n你說你沒有辦法做那你又不願意換別人來做你還是持續在這個位置上如果換了任何一位有沒有任何的政治責任五次的復議失敗你認為你自己有沒有任何政治責任如果換任何一位院長面對的是\n\n32\n00:11:24,105 --> 00:11:48,409\n破壞憲政分際的法案侵害人民的法案自然難行的法案議員長立法院是多數決我們經過民主的程序合法合規合憲的情況送出來議員長理性的溝通我現在只請教的是說如果復議再次失敗明天投出來兩個復議案都沒有辦法通過有沒有政治責任\n\n33\n00:11:49,960 --> 00:12:05,039\n我們的政治責任在於說復議案如果沒有通過之後我們如何來挽救這個國家不會因為憲政分立被破壞人民權利被傷害以及沒有經過充分討論違反程序正義的這種法案\n\n34\n00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:26,709\n能夠對國家上都經過充分討論院長你這樣講我就非常的遺憾說實在話本席今天真的是很心平氣和因為討論到預算我還是強調我的觀念喔我是認為當用則用當省則省大家把錢花在刀口上我會支持但是重點在於是現在你們提出來的預算年增率是超過10%\n\n35\n00:12:29,712 --> 00:12:55,072\n兩兆九千三百多億的預算是中華民國總預算史上最高比去年的預算還多增加了七百億比二零一六年馬政府時代要卸任的時候還增加了將近一兆的預算如果說有那麼多的預算中華民國政府史上最高預算你們都還認為說自愛難行的話那不是非常荒謬嗎我們必須再說明一次再來這個預算裡面有兩千八百零六億是新增去年沒有的\n\n36\n00:12:55,572 --> 00:13:21,860\n但是大家把它當作空氣存在2000多億就是你年增10%我剛剛已經說了2000多億是剛剛新增的10%但是整個TOTAL全部結束之後還比去年多增加了700億這是不是事實但是你把它塞三減就但你要扣掉這2806億啊那去年沒有的啊沒關係你不想要這樣子你故意想要模糊焦點\n\n37\n00:13:23,839 --> 00:13:45,649\n來院長我們再來討論去年的數字你再扣掉院長你要故意要模糊焦點我現在再來討論的是另外一個部分民進黨現在執政黨說要來發動所謂的全台大宣講那也看到你會帶著部會首長一起來下鄉宣講這些預算都不會用到我們中央政府總預算嗎\n\n38\n00:13:47,216 --> 00:14:13,129\n宣講是誰要花錢我不應該在這裡談黨務但是民進黨有沒有你會不會出席民進黨有沒有權利在發動出席出席宣講會嘛外界報導是說你每一場都要參加我早上有說過了復議案的結果我們有必要向外界說明必須執行如果有適當的時間機會有任何邀請這個宣講我們政府官員會不會出席\n\n39\n00:14:14,912 --> 00:14:41,966\n如果我需要政策一半跟著我一起做說明也會出席如果需要政策一邊一邊做說明一邊這些政府官有些不是民進黨籍也會出席所以這個不是參加民進黨活動而已看起來就是民進黨活動還是民進黨發起的還中央黨部規劃咧來最後這個錢是誰要出一個任何團體這個宣講的活動是誰要出錢行政院已經沒有這個經費在\n\n40\n00:14:43,444 --> 00:15:11,552\n出這個錢沒有這個經費所以說我們部會首長下鄉前往包括說院長要出發的時候會有隨戶多增加的這個警務的同仁的開銷支出誰要出錢誰要買單在參加非公務的活動的時候我們自有分寸公私分明是所以你要自己掏腰包你如果說有隨戶的話自己掏腰包需要的時候就是自己掏腰包是這樣子嗎確定去參加的活動是什麼性質\n\n41\n00:15:13,190 --> 00:15:35,293\n來最後院長呂秀蓮前總統也是民進黨籍他講過一句話中央編了那麼多預算但是綠營到底做了什麼沒有人有印象所以呼籲有權者應該要下面閉嘴別再講自愛難行癱瘓國家不如端出政績院長你認同嗎就是這樣子我有必要\n\n42\n00:15:37,435 --> 00:15:56,147\n所以說你再認識什麼人我都會有意義的跟他說院長再過兩個月你就是主惡靈你就是一年本席很由衷的希望看到當一年你的就職成績當然就是可以真真正正抬起重大向國人報告而不是到最後只是變成說我提了幾個\n\n43\n00:16:09,458 --> 00:16:15,302\n好謝謝好謝謝洪孟凱為的詢問謝謝卓院長的答詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n13497\t19805\t主席謝謝麻煩請卓院長還有衛福部邱部長麻煩再請卓院長衛福部邱部長請\n29841\t54506\t紅委員好好 院長好 部長好來 部長我想先請教我這過年結束之後最近我要先幫我們的醫護人員來講講話因為醫護人員真的非常的辛苦尤其疫情期間的時候我們看到很多醫護人員在地線那撐過之後到現在我們也持續希望能夠給醫護人員合理的一個待遇可是\n55406\t73932\t醫護人員的短缺跟勞動的條件其實是很大的一個問題它跟預算來講沒有那麼直接的關係因為最大的離職潮其實是在疫情之後跟去年的六月所以醫護人員他希望的是能夠改善醫護的勞動空間勞動條件是不是是的我想改善醫護\n79212\t97132\t工作條件其實是政府一直在努力的那行政院在所以他是長期以來的一個問題過去您擔任立法委員的時候也很關心是對不對是那就沒有存在是說因為說什麼刪預算凍結預算而造成醫護人員的這個負擔嘛\n99975\t122364\t因為過去預算一樣是照常給你們使用啊過去八年民進黨政府不是每一次國會多數的時候都支持衛福部的預算但是最大的離職潮就在疫情之後跟去年的六月那醫護人員的辛苦到底誰來幫他們發聲報告委員如果預算受到凍結或者是\n124027\t146715\t其實還是有影響到醫護人員環境的改善我現在在講的是之前的狀況你剛剛也已經承認了嘛是不是之前就已經有離職潮這是不是長期的問題所以我們是不是應該要一起努力來解決長期的問題當然當然是來部長我再請教一下我一定要利用這個機會讓你說明清楚醫護人員的月薪有7萬塊平均嗎\n150228\t153992\t我們的衛福部的粉專講說護理師的月薪有七萬\n155604\t181023\t結果雞成整個大炸鍋我們看一下新聞裡面報導講說醫護人員紛紛表達不滿認為衛福部是誘導誤導而且這樣反而是汙名化好像讓醫護人員覺得是說他們坐領高薪讓外界覺得是有對立覺得說他們坐領高薪但實際上他們薪水有那麼多嗎所以甚至有人講這不知道是哪一個大腦袋想出來的來\n184666\t212265\t月薪是行情價嗎是灌水灌到離譜的價格還有現在有沒有看到護理師在網上發起什麼運動發起他貼出他的薪資單他把他的薪資單貼出來每一個護理師都講說抱歉我拉低了平均抱歉我沒有達到7萬那我們將請教如果護理師沒有達到7萬的話衛福部是不是要編列預算補足\n213410\t235195\t部長給你一個機會澄清一下護理師的待遇有平均月薪7萬元嗎報告委員醫護同仁真的工作非常辛苦他們的待遇如果能夠一直提升是我們很期待的事情第二個這個網站上面所呈現的是一個人收入除以12他是由在112年11月的時候由\n238995\t263958\t縣市衛生府邀請各地的醫院他把他的整個說他們護理人員的一個就是薪資包括固定跟非固定當然這裡面可能有包括獎金年終獎金等等的除以12出來的一個數目那我問過幾乎問過所有的重要的尤其是北部不管我問台大北醫什麼都滿些場跟說你們的你們這個報告的\n265579\t274743\t薪資是不是真實的他們也說絕對是真實的我昨天有問新光醫院的院長他說他絕對是真實的所以現在就是這些護理人員他們說話他是一種雷霜而且這是\n280024\t296729\t等於是平均值那有不同的第一個這是醫院的那可能醫院本身有不同的病房以外所以也有不同病房的狀況也有不同病房的狀況也有不同人班的狀況也有日班夜班的狀況\n298370\t325880\t我們現在只要問的是護理人員他現在被貼上一個標籤了這個標籤是從衛福部來的衛福部告訴大家是說護理人員平均月薪有7萬請教有嗎我想這是醫院爆出來的一個整個整個年初的時候這是衛福部的粉絲專頁貼的那你現在要推給醫院公開的大家都可以上去查如果醫院有不遵時的他就有他可能就會有問題而且這個當時的目的不是說去比\n326680\t343638\t當時的目的是希望說我們衛福部有沒有去查證護理人員如果說知道每一家醫院他的待遇是多少我們衛福部有沒有去查證我們衛福部有沒有去理解現在我怎麼感覺你好像站在知方的立場在講話我現在希望的是幫我們衛福人員來爭取應有幫助力不應該被污名化\n348603\t372083\t我完完全全就是希望把醫護跟著政府一直努力把醫護的工作環境弄好就是因為這樣子所以說才不應該用衛福部的粉絲專業來這樣做部長我時間有限我覺得你剛剛沒有辦法回答問題因為這是衛福部的粉絲專業貼出來的而你現在居然全部都推給醫院醫院的報告是資方的報告\n373733\t394801\t講不客氣的 資方給你們的資料你有沒有去調查讓牢方 代表牢方的醫護人員他們都說他們沒有 那中間的落差在哪裡我們不停的在跟護理師公會或者公會做溝通我想不要讓我們的院長在那裡我們一定會很清晰來努力改善本席很認真的跟您說\n396348\t410022\t看得到這是你衛福部部長的態度但是很實在的話過去到現在本席也非常多的護理工會也來跟我澄清絕對他們的月薪沒有到這樣子甚至所謂的\n411892\t440190\t五萬塊六萬五都沒有辦法達到一個月平均是四萬多塊而這樣的狀況其實他們是用他們的熱情他們的時間來去支撐但我們更希望的是給他們更好的勞動條件我最後請教一下三班互併比我們的草案修正本會期能不能提出來行政院的版本有關三班互併比我們現在是用獎勵的\n441141\t461853\t那不管是醫學中心當初在選舉的時候是誰講說一定要入法才有效力因為這個當初在選舉的時間是誰講兩年拚入法 四年拚實行那現在我這個會期因為醫療的院所也需要一個這個會期能不能出來 我只問能不能\n462968\t482659\t跟委員報告 三方貨幣比剛剛部長說我們先用獎勵的方式在制度完全形成之前獎勵的方式達到直接給護理人員再來就是獎勵達標的意願所以看起來是沒有辦法出來未來我們是朝向更完整的一個法制面不過我今天肯定委員這樣的質詢的內容\n485780\t502067\t統計數字最怕的就是沒有達到這個數字的會覺得被剝奪了但是這個7萬塊他到底是中位數還是什麼方式計算應該要標示清楚他所說的是一年的收入除以12所以有很多固定跟非固定但是一定要說明清楚\n502907\t518465\t收入高於7萬塊的護理人員不會有意見不過我覺得那個是比較少的比較多的人他是沒有辦法達到但是平均下來看他會達到接近這樣的數字但是還是要說明清楚讓我透過今天這樣的方式請衛福部要跟護理人員 護理師們\n519566\t543325\t充分說明清楚這個不是用這樣的數字來跟社會做一個假象的宣示而是大家要有一個共鳴您講的完全就是本席為什麼要求部長你用粉絲專業帶風向讓外界標籤汙名其實這個是不道德的本席更希望的是看到真真實實的我們一起努力好 部長請回 院長感謝\n544775\t549591\t本席現在要講的是過去到現在我擔任五年的立法委員\n551038\t578140\t資歷沒有很深但是我每一次部會首長來我辦公室討論預算的時候我一定告訴他們一件事情預算當用則用 當審則審但我身為在野黨的立委我不會要馬而好 又要馬而不吃草該給的預算 合理的預算我們會支持但重點是預算要花在刀口上來 院長今天早上我也聆聽了您的報告也看了早上的一個質詢\n579738\t598861\t很遺憾你還是提出了復議你一直強調說這是憲政給你的一個權利但是在今年的二月的時候賴清德總統召開的五院的院長的會議時候韓國院長江啟臣副院長也代表立法院出席並且也都有釋出善意\n599341\t622288\t包括韓國院長也特別提到說其實可以用追加預算的方式我們讓現在已經通過預算能夠先行如果真的有自愛難行或說真的有不足之處用追加預算的方式大家互相來溝通溝通溝通我們互相的來討論可以心平氣和對話但很顯然的你還是不願意接受所以還是提了復議\n623368\t645873\t那也許明天才化法的詢答完畢之後再投票有可能這兩個復議案總預算跟才化法復議案也沒有辦法通過到時候你的任內還不到一年的任期已經五次復議失敗了院長你自己怎麼看五連敗的院長這樣子好看嗎\n646849\t665874\t所以我說過這是富裕最多的行政院但是富裕不是好不好看的問題而是我們身為憲政機關唯一可以提出富裕的機關來 院長 那我再請教如果說每一次你都講自愛難行每一次都富裕沒有通過那你還是好官我自為之\n667452\t683244\t你說你沒有辦法做那你又不願意換別人來做你還是持續在這個位置上如果換了任何一位有沒有任何的政治責任五次的復議失敗你認為你自己有沒有任何政治責任如果換任何一位院長面對的是\n684105\t708409\t破壞憲政分際的法案 侵害人民的法案 自然難行的法案議員長 立法院是多數決我們經過民主的程序 合法 合規 合憲的情況送出來議員長 理性的溝通 我現在只請教的是說如果復議再次失敗 明天投出來 兩個復議案都沒有辦法通過有沒有政治責任\n709960\t725039\t我們的政治責任在於說復議案如果沒有通過之後我們如何來挽救這個國家不會因為憲政分立被破壞人民權利被傷害以及沒有經過充分討論違反程序正義的這種法案\n725760\t746709\t能夠對國家上都經過充分討論院長你這樣講我就非常的遺憾說實在話本席今天真的是很心平氣和因為討論到預算我還是強調我的觀念喔我是認為當用則用當省則省大家把錢花在刀口上我會支持但是重點在於是現在你們提出來的預算年增率是超過10%\n749712\t775072\t兩兆九千三百多億的預算是中華民國總預算史上最高比去年的預算還多增加了七百億比二零一六年馬政府時代要卸任的時候還增加了將近一兆的預算如果說有那麼多的預算中華民國政府史上最高預算你們都還認為說自愛難行的話那不是非常荒謬嗎我們必須再說明一次再來這個預算裡面有兩千八百零六億是新增去年沒有的\n775572\t801860\t但是大家把它當作空氣存在2000多億就是你年增10%我剛剛已經說了2000多億是剛剛新增的10%但是整個TOTAL全部結束之後還比去年多增加了700億這是不是事實但是你把它塞三減就但你要扣掉這2806億啊那去年沒有的啊沒關係你不想要這樣子你故意想要模糊焦點\n803839\t825649\t來 院長我們再來討論去年的數字你再扣掉院長你要故意要模糊焦點我現在再來討論的是另外一個部分民進黨現在執政黨說要來發動所謂的全台大宣講那也看到你會帶著部會首長一起來下鄉宣講這些預算都不會用到我們中央政府總預算嗎\n827216\t853129\t宣講是誰要花錢我不應該在這裡談黨務但是民進黨有沒有你會不會出席民進黨有沒有權利在發動出席出席宣講 會嘛外界報導是說你每一場都要參加我早上有說過了 復議案的結果我們有必要向外界說明 必須執行如果有適當的時間機會 有任何邀請這個宣講 我們政府官員會不會出席\n854912\t881966\t如果我需要政策一半跟著我一起做說明也會出席如果需要政策一邊一邊做說明一邊這些政府官有些不是民進黨籍也會出席所以這個不是參加民進黨活動而已看起來就是民進黨活動還是民進黨發起的還中央黨部規劃咧來最後這個錢是誰要出一個任何團體這個宣講的活動是誰要出錢行政院已經沒有這個經費在\n883444\t911552\t出這個錢沒有這個經費所以說我們部會首長下鄉前往包括說院長要出發的時候會有隨戶多增加的這個警務的同仁的開銷支出誰要出錢誰要買單在參加非公務的活動的時候我們自有分寸公私分明是所以你要自己掏腰包你如果說有隨戶的話自己掏腰包需要的時候就是自己掏腰包是這樣子嗎確定去參加的活動是什麼性質\n913190\t935293\t來最後院長呂秀蓮前總統也是民進黨籍他講過一句話中央編了那麼多預算但是綠營到底做了什麼沒有人有印象所以呼籲有權者應該要下面閉嘴別再講自愛難行癱瘓國家不如端出政績院長你認同嗎就是這樣子我有必要\n937435\t956147\t所以說你再認識什麼人我都會有意義的跟他說院長 再過兩個月你就是主惡靈你就是一年本席很由衷的希望看到當一年你的就職成績當然就是可以真真正正抬起重大向國人報告而不是到最後只是變成說我提了幾個\n969458\t975302\t好 謝謝好 謝謝洪孟凱為的詢問 謝謝卓院長的答詢\n","txt":"主席謝謝麻煩請卓院長還有衛福部邱部長麻煩再請卓院長衛福部邱部長請\n紅委員好好 院長好 部長好來 部長我想先請教我這過年結束之後最近我要先幫我們的醫護人員來講講話因為醫護人員真的非常的辛苦尤其疫情期間的時候我們看到很多醫護人員在地線那撐過之後到現在我們也持續希望能夠給醫護人員合理的一個待遇可是\n醫護人員的短缺跟勞動的條件其實是很大的一個問題它跟預算來講沒有那麼直接的關係因為最大的離職潮其實是在疫情之後跟去年的六月所以醫護人員他希望的是能夠改善醫護的勞動空間勞動條件是不是是的我想改善醫護\n工作條件其實是政府一直在努力的那行政院在所以他是長期以來的一個問題過去您擔任立法委員的時候也很關心是對不對是那就沒有存在是說因為說什麼刪預算凍結預算而造成醫護人員的這個負擔嘛\n因為過去預算一樣是照常給你們使用啊過去八年民進黨政府不是每一次國會多數的時候都支持衛福部的預算但是最大的離職潮就在疫情之後跟去年的六月那醫護人員的辛苦到底誰來幫他們發聲報告委員如果預算受到凍結或者是\n其實還是有影響到醫護人員環境的改善我現在在講的是之前的狀況你剛剛也已經承認了嘛是不是之前就已經有離職潮這是不是長期的問題所以我們是不是應該要一起努力來解決長期的問題當然當然是來部長我再請教一下我一定要利用這個機會讓你說明清楚醫護人員的月薪有7萬塊平均嗎\n我們的衛福部的粉專講說護理師的月薪有七萬\n結果雞成整個大炸鍋我們看一下新聞裡面報導講說醫護人員紛紛表達不滿認為衛福部是誘導誤導而且這樣反而是汙名化好像讓醫護人員覺得是說他們坐領高薪讓外界覺得是有對立覺得說他們坐領高薪但實際上他們薪水有那麼多嗎所以甚至有人講這不知道是哪一個大腦袋想出來的來\n月薪是行情價嗎是灌水灌到離譜的價格還有現在有沒有看到護理師在網上發起什麼運動發起他貼出他的薪資單他把他的薪資單貼出來每一個護理師都講說抱歉我拉低了平均抱歉我沒有達到7萬那我們將請教如果護理師沒有達到7萬的話衛福部是不是要編列預算補足\n部長給你一個機會澄清一下護理師的待遇有平均月薪7萬元嗎報告委員醫護同仁真的工作非常辛苦他們的待遇如果能夠一直提升是我們很期待的事情第二個這個網站上面所呈現的是一個人收入除以12他是由在112年11月的時候由\n縣市衛生府邀請各地的醫院他把他的整個說他們護理人員的一個就是薪資包括固定跟非固定當然這裡面可能有包括獎金年終獎金等等的除以12出來的一個數目那我問過幾乎問過所有的重要的尤其是北部不管我問台大北醫什麼都滿些場跟說你們的你們這個報告的\n薪資是不是真實的他們也說絕對是真實的我昨天有問新光醫院的院長他說他絕對是真實的所以現在就是這些護理人員他們說話他是一種雷霜而且這是\n等於是平均值那有不同的第一個這是醫院的那可能醫院本身有不同的病房以外所以也有不同病房的狀況也有不同病房的狀況也有不同人班的狀況也有日班夜班的狀況\n我們現在只要問的是護理人員他現在被貼上一個標籤了這個標籤是從衛福部來的衛福部告訴大家是說護理人員平均月薪有7萬請教有嗎我想這是醫院爆出來的一個整個整個年初的時候這是衛福部的粉絲專頁貼的那你現在要推給醫院公開的大家都可以上去查如果醫院有不遵時的他就有他可能就會有問題而且這個當時的目的不是說去比\n當時的目的是希望說我們衛福部有沒有去查證護理人員如果說知道每一家醫院他的待遇是多少我們衛福部有沒有去查證我們衛福部有沒有去理解現在我怎麼感覺你好像站在知方的立場在講話我現在希望的是幫我們衛福人員來爭取應有幫助力不應該被污名化\n我完完全全就是希望把醫護跟著政府一直努力把醫護的工作環境弄好就是因為這樣子所以說才不應該用衛福部的粉絲專業來這樣做部長我時間有限我覺得你剛剛沒有辦法回答問題因為這是衛福部的粉絲專業貼出來的而你現在居然全部都推給醫院醫院的報告是資方的報告\n講不客氣的 資方給你們的資料你有沒有去調查讓牢方 代表牢方的醫護人員他們都說他們沒有 那中間的落差在哪裡我們不停的在跟護理師公會或者公會做溝通我想不要讓我們的院長在那裡我們一定會很清晰來努力改善本席很認真的跟您說\n看得到這是你衛福部部長的態度但是很實在的話過去到現在本席也非常多的護理工會也來跟我澄清絕對他們的月薪沒有到這樣子甚至所謂的\n五萬塊六萬五都沒有辦法達到一個月平均是四萬多塊而這樣的狀況其實他們是用他們的熱情他們的時間來去支撐但我們更希望的是給他們更好的勞動條件我最後請教一下三班互併比我們的草案修正本會期能不能提出來行政院的版本有關三班互併比我們現在是用獎勵的\n那不管是醫學中心當初在選舉的時候是誰講說一定要入法才有效力因為這個當初在選舉的時間是誰講兩年拚入法 四年拚實行那現在我這個會期因為醫療的院所也需要一個這個會期能不能出來 我只問能不能\n跟委員報告 三方貨幣比剛剛部長說我們先用獎勵的方式在制度完全形成之前獎勵的方式達到直接給護理人員再來就是獎勵達標的意願所以看起來是沒有辦法出來未來我們是朝向更完整的一個法制面不過我今天肯定委員這樣的質詢的內容\n統計數字最怕的就是沒有達到這個數字的會覺得被剝奪了但是這個7萬塊他到底是中位數還是什麼方式計算應該要標示清楚他所說的是一年的收入除以12所以有很多固定跟非固定但是一定要說明清楚\n收入高於7萬塊的護理人員不會有意見不過我覺得那個是比較少的比較多的人他是沒有辦法達到但是平均下來看他會達到接近這樣的數字但是還是要說明清楚讓我透過今天這樣的方式請衛福部要跟護理人員 護理師們\n充分說明清楚這個不是用這樣的數字來跟社會做一個假象的宣示而是大家要有一個共鳴您講的完全就是本席為什麼要求部長你用粉絲專業帶風向讓外界標籤汙名其實這個是不道德的本席更希望的是看到真真實實的我們一起努力好 部長請回 院長感謝\n本席現在要講的是過去到現在我擔任五年的立法委員\n資歷沒有很深但是我每一次部會首長來我辦公室討論預算的時候我一定告訴他們一件事情預算當用則用 當審則審但我身為在野黨的立委我不會要馬而好 又要馬而不吃草該給的預算 合理的預算我們會支持但重點是預算要花在刀口上來 院長今天早上我也聆聽了您的報告也看了早上的一個質詢\n很遺憾你還是提出了復議你一直強調說這是憲政給你的一個權利但是在今年的二月的時候賴清德總統召開的五院的院長的會議時候韓國院長江啟臣副院長也代表立法院出席並且也都有釋出善意\n包括韓國院長也特別提到說其實可以用追加預算的方式我們讓現在已經通過預算能夠先行如果真的有自愛難行或說真的有不足之處用追加預算的方式大家互相來溝通溝通溝通我們互相的來討論可以心平氣和對話但很顯然的你還是不願意接受所以還是提了復議\n那也許明天才化法的詢答完畢之後再投票有可能這兩個復議案總預算跟才化法復議案也沒有辦法通過到時候你的任內還不到一年的任期已經五次復議失敗了院長你自己怎麼看五連敗的院長這樣子好看嗎\n所以我說過這是富裕最多的行政院但是富裕不是好不好看的問題而是我們身為憲政機關唯一可以提出富裕的機關來 院長 那我再請教如果說每一次你都講自愛難行每一次都富裕沒有通過那你還是好官我自為之\n你說你沒有辦法做那你又不願意換別人來做你還是持續在這個位置上如果換了任何一位有沒有任何的政治責任五次的復議失敗你認為你自己有沒有任何政治責任如果換任何一位院長面對的是\n破壞憲政分際的法案 侵害人民的法案 自然難行的法案議員長 立法院是多數決我們經過民主的程序 合法 合規 合憲的情況送出來議員長 理性的溝通 我現在只請教的是說如果復議再次失敗 明天投出來 兩個復議案都沒有辦法通過有沒有政治責任\n我們的政治責任在於說復議案如果沒有通過之後我們如何來挽救這個國家不會因為憲政分立被破壞人民權利被傷害以及沒有經過充分討論違反程序正義的這種法案\n能夠對國家上都經過充分討論院長你這樣講我就非常的遺憾說實在話本席今天真的是很心平氣和因為討論到預算我還是強調我的觀念喔我是認為當用則用當省則省大家把錢花在刀口上我會支持但是重點在於是現在你們提出來的預算年增率是超過10%\n兩兆九千三百多億的預算是中華民國總預算史上最高比去年的預算還多增加了七百億比二零一六年馬政府時代要卸任的時候還增加了將近一兆的預算如果說有那麼多的預算中華民國政府史上最高預算你們都還認為說自愛難行的話那不是非常荒謬嗎我們必須再說明一次再來這個預算裡面有兩千八百零六億是新增去年沒有的\n但是大家把它當作空氣存在2000多億就是你年增10%我剛剛已經說了2000多億是剛剛新增的10%但是整個TOTAL全部結束之後還比去年多增加了700億這是不是事實但是你把它塞三減就但你要扣掉這2806億啊那去年沒有的啊沒關係你不想要這樣子你故意想要模糊焦點\n來 院長我們再來討論去年的數字你再扣掉院長你要故意要模糊焦點我現在再來討論的是另外一個部分民進黨現在執政黨說要來發動所謂的全台大宣講那也看到你會帶著部會首長一起來下鄉宣講這些預算都不會用到我們中央政府總預算嗎\n宣講是誰要花錢我不應該在這裡談黨務但是民進黨有沒有你會不會出席民進黨有沒有權利在發動出席出席宣講 會嘛外界報導是說你每一場都要參加我早上有說過了 復議案的結果我們有必要向外界說明 必須執行如果有適當的時間機會 有任何邀請這個宣講 我們政府官員會不會出席\n如果我需要政策一半跟著我一起做說明也會出席如果需要政策一邊一邊做說明一邊這些政府官有些不是民進黨籍也會出席所以這個不是參加民進黨活動而已看起來就是民進黨活動還是民進黨發起的還中央黨部規劃咧來最後這個錢是誰要出一個任何團體這個宣講的活動是誰要出錢行政院已經沒有這個經費在\n出這個錢沒有這個經費所以說我們部會首長下鄉前往包括說院長要出發的時候會有隨戶多增加的這個警務的同仁的開銷支出誰要出錢誰要買單在參加非公務的活動的時候我們自有分寸公私分明是所以你要自己掏腰包你如果說有隨戶的話自己掏腰包需要的時候就是自己掏腰包是這樣子嗎確定去參加的活動是什麼性質\n來最後院長呂秀蓮前總統也是民進黨籍他講過一句話中央編了那麼多預算但是綠營到底做了什麼沒有人有印象所以呼籲有權者應該要下面閉嘴別再講自愛難行癱瘓國家不如端出政績院長你認同嗎就是這樣子我有必要\n所以說你再認識什麼人我都會有意義的跟他說院長 再過兩個月你就是主惡靈你就是一年本席很由衷的希望看到當一年你的就職成績當然就是可以真真正正抬起重大向國人報告而不是到最後只是變成說我提了幾個\n好 謝謝好 謝謝洪孟凱為的詢問 謝謝卓院長的答詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:13.497 --> 00:19.805\n主席謝謝麻煩請卓院長還有衛福部邱部長麻煩再請卓院長衛福部邱部長請\n\n00:29.841 --> 00:54.506\n紅委員好好院長好部長好來部長我想先請教我這過年結束之後最近我要先幫我們的醫護人員來講講話因為醫護人員真的非常的辛苦尤其疫情期間的時候我們看到很多醫護人員在地線那撐過之後到現在我們也持續希望能夠給醫護人員合理的一個待遇可是\n\n00:55.406 --> 01:13.932\n醫護人員的短缺跟勞動的條件其實是很大的一個問題它跟預算來講沒有那麼直接的關係因為最大的離職潮其實是在疫情之後跟去年的六月所以醫護人員他希望的是能夠改善醫護的勞動空間勞動條件是不是是的我想改善醫護\n\n01:19.212 --> 01:37.132\n工作條件其實是政府一直在努力的那行政院在所以他是長期以來的一個問題過去您擔任立法委員的時候也很關心是對不對是那就沒有存在是說因為說什麼刪預算凍結預算而造成醫護人員的這個負擔嘛\n\n01:39.975 --> 02:02.364\n因為過去預算一樣是照常給你們使用啊過去八年民進黨政府不是每一次國會多數的時候都支持衛福部的預算但是最大的離職潮就在疫情之後跟去年的六月那醫護人員的辛苦到底誰來幫他們發聲報告委員如果預算受到凍結或者是\n\n02:04.027 --> 02:26.715\n其實還是有影響到醫護人員環境的改善我現在在講的是之前的狀況你剛剛也已經承認了嘛是不是之前就已經有離職潮這是不是長期的問題所以我們是不是應該要一起努力來解決長期的問題當然當然是來部長我再請教一下我一定要利用這個機會讓你說明清楚醫護人員的月薪有7萬塊平均嗎\n\n02:30.228 --> 02:33.992\n我們的衛福部的粉專講說護理師的月薪有七萬\n\n02:35.604 --> 03:01.023\n結果雞成整個大炸鍋我們看一下新聞裡面報導講說醫護人員紛紛表達不滿認為衛福部是誘導誤導而且這樣反而是汙名化好像讓醫護人員覺得是說他們坐領高薪讓外界覺得是有對立覺得說他們坐領高薪但實際上他們薪水有那麼多嗎所以甚至有人講這不知道是哪一個大腦袋想出來的來\n\n03:04.666 --> 03:32.265\n月薪是行情價嗎是灌水灌到離譜的價格還有現在有沒有看到護理師在網上發起什麼運動發起他貼出他的薪資單他把他的薪資單貼出來每一個護理師都講說抱歉我拉低了平均抱歉我沒有達到7萬那我們將請教如果護理師沒有達到7萬的話衛福部是不是要編列預算補足\n\n03:33.410 --> 03:55.195\n部長給你一個機會澄清一下護理師的待遇有平均月薪7萬元嗎報告委員醫護同仁真的工作非常辛苦他們的待遇如果能夠一直提升是我們很期待的事情第二個這個網站上面所呈現的是一個人收入除以12他是由在112年11月的時候由\n\n03:58.995 --> 04:23.958\n縣市衛生府邀請各地的醫院他把他的整個說他們護理人員的一個就是薪資包括固定跟非固定當然這裡面可能有包括獎金年終獎金等等的除以12出來的一個數目那我問過幾乎問過所有的重要的尤其是北部不管我問台大北醫什麼都滿些場跟說你們的你們這個報告的\n\n04:25.579 --> 04:34.743\n薪資是不是真實的他們也說絕對是真實的我昨天有問新光醫院的院長他說他絕對是真實的所以現在就是這些護理人員他們說話他是一種雷霜而且這是\n\n04:40.024 --> 04:56.729\n等於是平均值那有不同的第一個這是醫院的那可能醫院本身有不同的病房以外所以也有不同病房的狀況也有不同病房的狀況也有不同人班的狀況也有日班夜班的狀況\n\n04:58.370 --> 05:25.880\n我們現在只要問的是護理人員他現在被貼上一個標籤了這個標籤是從衛福部來的衛福部告訴大家是說護理人員平均月薪有7萬請教有嗎我想這是醫院爆出來的一個整個整個年初的時候這是衛福部的粉絲專頁貼的那你現在要推給醫院公開的大家都可以上去查如果醫院有不遵時的他就有他可能就會有問題而且這個當時的目的不是說去比\n\n05:26.680 --> 05:43.638\n當時的目的是希望說我們衛福部有沒有去查證護理人員如果說知道每一家醫院他的待遇是多少我們衛福部有沒有去查證我們衛福部有沒有去理解現在我怎麼感覺你好像站在知方的立場在講話我現在希望的是幫我們衛福人員來爭取應有幫助力不應該被污名化\n\n05:48.603 --> 06:12.083\n我完完全全就是希望把醫護跟著政府一直努力把醫護的工作環境弄好就是因為這樣子所以說才不應該用衛福部的粉絲專業來這樣做部長我時間有限我覺得你剛剛沒有辦法回答問題因為這是衛福部的粉絲專業貼出來的而你現在居然全部都推給醫院醫院的報告是資方的報告\n\n06:13.733 --> 06:34.801\n講不客氣的資方給你們的資料你有沒有去調查讓牢方代表牢方的醫護人員他們都說他們沒有那中間的落差在哪裡我們不停的在跟護理師公會或者公會做溝通我想不要讓我們的院長在那裡我們一定會很清晰來努力改善本席很認真的跟您說\n\n06:36.348 --> 06:50.022\n看得到這是你衛福部部長的態度但是很實在的話過去到現在本席也非常多的護理工會也來跟我澄清絕對他們的月薪沒有到這樣子甚至所謂的\n\n06:51.892 --> 07:20.190\n五萬塊六萬五都沒有辦法達到一個月平均是四萬多塊而這樣的狀況其實他們是用他們的熱情他們的時間來去支撐但我們更希望的是給他們更好的勞動條件我最後請教一下三班互併比我們的草案修正本會期能不能提出來行政院的版本有關三班互併比我們現在是用獎勵的\n\n07:21.141 --> 07:41.853\n那不管是醫學中心當初在選舉的時候是誰講說一定要入法才有效力因為這個當初在選舉的時間是誰講兩年拚入法四年拚實行那現在我這個會期因為醫療的院所也需要一個這個會期能不能出來我只問能不能\n\n07:42.968 --> 08:02.659\n跟委員報告三方貨幣比剛剛部長說我們先用獎勵的方式在制度完全形成之前獎勵的方式達到直接給護理人員再來就是獎勵達標的意願所以看起來是沒有辦法出來未來我們是朝向更完整的一個法制面不過我今天肯定委員這樣的質詢的內容\n\n08:05.780 --> 08:22.067\n統計數字最怕的就是沒有達到這個數字的會覺得被剝奪了但是這個7萬塊他到底是中位數還是什麼方式計算應該要標示清楚他所說的是一年的收入除以12所以有很多固定跟非固定但是一定要說明清楚\n\n08:22.907 --> 08:38.465\n收入高於7萬塊的護理人員不會有意見不過我覺得那個是比較少的比較多的人他是沒有辦法達到但是平均下來看他會達到接近這樣的數字但是還是要說明清楚讓我透過今天這樣的方式請衛福部要跟護理人員護理師們\n\n08:39.566 --> 09:03.325\n充分說明清楚這個不是用這樣的數字來跟社會做一個假象的宣示而是大家要有一個共鳴您講的完全就是本席為什麼要求部長你用粉絲專業帶風向讓外界標籤汙名其實這個是不道德的本席更希望的是看到真真實實的我們一起努力好部長請回院長感謝\n\n09:04.775 --> 09:09.591\n本席現在要講的是過去到現在我擔任五年的立法委員\n\n09:11.038 --> 09:38.140\n資歷沒有很深但是我每一次部會首長來我辦公室討論預算的時候我一定告訴他們一件事情預算當用則用當審則審但我身為在野黨的立委我不會要馬而好又要馬而不吃草該給的預算合理的預算我們會支持但重點是預算要花在刀口上來院長今天早上我也聆聽了您的報告也看了早上的一個質詢\n\n09:39.738 --> 09:58.861\n很遺憾你還是提出了復議你一直強調說這是憲政給你的一個權利但是在今年的二月的時候賴清德總統召開的五院的院長的會議時候韓國院長江啟臣副院長也代表立法院出席並且也都有釋出善意\n\n09:59.341 --> 10:22.288\n包括韓國院長也特別提到說其實可以用追加預算的方式我們讓現在已經通過預算能夠先行如果真的有自愛難行或說真的有不足之處用追加預算的方式大家互相來溝通溝通溝通我們互相的來討論可以心平氣和對話但很顯然的你還是不願意接受所以還是提了復議\n\n10:23.368 --> 10:45.873\n那也許明天才化法的詢答完畢之後再投票有可能這兩個復議案總預算跟才化法復議案也沒有辦法通過到時候你的任內還不到一年的任期已經五次復議失敗了院長你自己怎麼看五連敗的院長這樣子好看嗎\n\n10:46.849 --> 11:05.874\n所以我說過這是富裕最多的行政院但是富裕不是好不好看的問題而是我們身為憲政機關唯一可以提出富裕的機關來院長那我再請教如果說每一次你都講自愛難行每一次都富裕沒有通過那你還是好官我自為之\n\n11:07.452 --> 11:23.244\n你說你沒有辦法做那你又不願意換別人來做你還是持續在這個位置上如果換了任何一位有沒有任何的政治責任五次的復議失敗你認為你自己有沒有任何政治責任如果換任何一位院長面對的是\n\n11:24.105 --> 11:48.409\n破壞憲政分際的法案侵害人民的法案自然難行的法案議員長立法院是多數決我們經過民主的程序合法合規合憲的情況送出來議員長理性的溝通我現在只請教的是說如果復議再次失敗明天投出來兩個復議案都沒有辦法通過有沒有政治責任\n\n11:49.960 --> 12:05.039\n我們的政治責任在於說復議案如果沒有通過之後我們如何來挽救這個國家不會因為憲政分立被破壞人民權利被傷害以及沒有經過充分討論違反程序正義的這種法案\n\n12:05.760 --> 12:26.709\n能夠對國家上都經過充分討論院長你這樣講我就非常的遺憾說實在話本席今天真的是很心平氣和因為討論到預算我還是強調我的觀念喔我是認為當用則用當省則省大家把錢花在刀口上我會支持但是重點在於是現在你們提出來的預算年增率是超過10%\n\n12:29.712 --> 12:55.072\n兩兆九千三百多億的預算是中華民國總預算史上最高比去年的預算還多增加了七百億比二零一六年馬政府時代要卸任的時候還增加了將近一兆的預算如果說有那麼多的預算中華民國政府史上最高預算你們都還認為說自愛難行的話那不是非常荒謬嗎我們必須再說明一次再來這個預算裡面有兩千八百零六億是新增去年沒有的\n\n12:55.572 --> 13:21.860\n但是大家把它當作空氣存在2000多億就是你年增10%我剛剛已經說了2000多億是剛剛新增的10%但是整個TOTAL全部結束之後還比去年多增加了700億這是不是事實但是你把它塞三減就但你要扣掉這2806億啊那去年沒有的啊沒關係你不想要這樣子你故意想要模糊焦點\n\n13:23.839 --> 13:45.649\n來院長我們再來討論去年的數字你再扣掉院長你要故意要模糊焦點我現在再來討論的是另外一個部分民進黨現在執政黨說要來發動所謂的全台大宣講那也看到你會帶著部會首長一起來下鄉宣講這些預算都不會用到我們中央政府總預算嗎\n\n13:47.216 --> 14:13.129\n宣講是誰要花錢我不應該在這裡談黨務但是民進黨有沒有你會不會出席民進黨有沒有權利在發動出席出席宣講會嘛外界報導是說你每一場都要參加我早上有說過了復議案的結果我們有必要向外界說明必須執行如果有適當的時間機會有任何邀請這個宣講我們政府官員會不會出席\n\n14:14.912 --> 14:41.966\n如果我需要政策一半跟著我一起做說明也會出席如果需要政策一邊一邊做說明一邊這些政府官有些不是民進黨籍也會出席所以這個不是參加民進黨活動而已看起來就是民進黨活動還是民進黨發起的還中央黨部規劃咧來最後這個錢是誰要出一個任何團體這個宣講的活動是誰要出錢行政院已經沒有這個經費在\n\n14:43.444 --> 15:11.552\n出這個錢沒有這個經費所以說我們部會首長下鄉前往包括說院長要出發的時候會有隨戶多增加的這個警務的同仁的開銷支出誰要出錢誰要買單在參加非公務的活動的時候我們自有分寸公私分明是所以你要自己掏腰包你如果說有隨戶的話自己掏腰包需要的時候就是自己掏腰包是這樣子嗎確定去參加的活動是什麼性質\n\n15:13.190 --> 15:35.293\n來最後院長呂秀蓮前總統也是民進黨籍他講過一句話中央編了那麼多預算但是綠營到底做了什麼沒有人有印象所以呼籲有權者應該要下面閉嘴別再講自愛難行癱瘓國家不如端出政績院長你認同嗎就是這樣子我有必要\n\n15:37.435 --> 15:56.147\n所以說你再認識什麼人我都會有意義的跟他說院長再過兩個月你就是主惡靈你就是一年本席很由衷的希望看到當一年你的就職成績當然就是可以真真正正抬起重大向國人報告而不是到最後只是變成說我提了幾個\n\n16:09.458 --> 16:15.302\n好謝謝好謝謝洪孟凱為的詢問謝謝卓院長的答詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":13.497,"end":19.805,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請卓院長還有衛福部邱部長麻煩再請卓院長衛福部邱部長請"},{"start":29.841,"end":54.506,"text":"紅委員好好 院長好 部長好來 部長我想先請教我這過年結束之後最近我要先幫我們的醫護人員來講講話因為醫護人員真的非常的辛苦尤其疫情期間的時候我們看到很多醫護人員在地線那撐過之後到現在我們也持續希望能夠給醫護人員合理的一個待遇可是"},{"start":55.406,"end":73.932,"text":"醫護人員的短缺跟勞動的條件其實是很大的一個問題它跟預算來講沒有那麼直接的關係因為最大的離職潮其實是在疫情之後跟去年的六月所以醫護人員他希望的是能夠改善醫護的勞動空間勞動條件是不是是的我想改善醫護"},{"start":79.212,"end":97.132,"text":"工作條件其實是政府一直在努力的那行政院在所以他是長期以來的一個問題過去您擔任立法委員的時候也很關心是對不對是那就沒有存在是說因為說什麼刪預算凍結預算而造成醫護人員的這個負擔嘛"},{"start":99.975,"end":122.364,"text":"因為過去預算一樣是照常給你們使用啊過去八年民進黨政府不是每一次國會多數的時候都支持衛福部的預算但是最大的離職潮就在疫情之後跟去年的六月那醫護人員的辛苦到底誰來幫他們發聲報告委員如果預算受到凍結或者是"},{"start":124.027,"end":146.715,"text":"其實還是有影響到醫護人員環境的改善我現在在講的是之前的狀況你剛剛也已經承認了嘛是不是之前就已經有離職潮這是不是長期的問題所以我們是不是應該要一起努力來解決長期的問題當然當然是來部長我再請教一下我一定要利用這個機會讓你說明清楚醫護人員的月薪有7萬塊平均嗎"},{"start":150.228,"end":153.992,"text":"我們的衛福部的粉專講說護理師的月薪有七萬"},{"start":155.604,"end":181.023,"text":"結果雞成整個大炸鍋我們看一下新聞裡面報導講說醫護人員紛紛表達不滿認為衛福部是誘導誤導而且這樣反而是汙名化好像讓醫護人員覺得是說他們坐領高薪讓外界覺得是有對立覺得說他們坐領高薪但實際上他們薪水有那麼多嗎所以甚至有人講這不知道是哪一個大腦袋想出來的來"},{"start":184.666,"end":212.265,"text":"月薪是行情價嗎是灌水灌到離譜的價格還有現在有沒有看到護理師在網上發起什麼運動發起他貼出他的薪資單他把他的薪資單貼出來每一個護理師都講說抱歉我拉低了平均抱歉我沒有達到7萬那我們將請教如果護理師沒有達到7萬的話衛福部是不是要編列預算補足"},{"start":213.41,"end":235.195,"text":"部長給你一個機會澄清一下護理師的待遇有平均月薪7萬元嗎報告委員醫護同仁真的工作非常辛苦他們的待遇如果能夠一直提升是我們很期待的事情第二個這個網站上面所呈現的是一個人收入除以12他是由在112年11月的時候由"},{"start":238.995,"end":263.958,"text":"縣市衛生府邀請各地的醫院他把他的整個說他們護理人員的一個就是薪資包括固定跟非固定當然這裡面可能有包括獎金年終獎金等等的除以12出來的一個數目那我問過幾乎問過所有的重要的尤其是北部不管我問台大北醫什麼都滿些場跟說你們的你們這個報告的"},{"start":265.579,"end":274.743,"text":"薪資是不是真實的他們也說絕對是真實的我昨天有問新光醫院的院長他說他絕對是真實的所以現在就是這些護理人員他們說話他是一種雷霜而且這是"},{"start":280.024,"end":296.729,"text":"等於是平均值那有不同的第一個這是醫院的那可能醫院本身有不同的病房以外所以也有不同病房的狀況也有不同病房的狀況也有不同人班的狀況也有日班夜班的狀況"},{"start":298.37,"end":325.88,"text":"我們現在只要問的是護理人員他現在被貼上一個標籤了這個標籤是從衛福部來的衛福部告訴大家是說護理人員平均月薪有7萬請教有嗎我想這是醫院爆出來的一個整個整個年初的時候這是衛福部的粉絲專頁貼的那你現在要推給醫院公開的大家都可以上去查如果醫院有不遵時的他就有他可能就會有問題而且這個當時的目的不是說去比"},{"start":326.68,"end":343.638,"text":"當時的目的是希望說我們衛福部有沒有去查證護理人員如果說知道每一家醫院他的待遇是多少我們衛福部有沒有去查證我們衛福部有沒有去理解現在我怎麼感覺你好像站在知方的立場在講話我現在希望的是幫我們衛福人員來爭取應有幫助力不應該被污名化"},{"start":348.603,"end":372.083,"text":"我完完全全就是希望把醫護跟著政府一直努力把醫護的工作環境弄好就是因為這樣子所以說才不應該用衛福部的粉絲專業來這樣做部長我時間有限我覺得你剛剛沒有辦法回答問題因為這是衛福部的粉絲專業貼出來的而你現在居然全部都推給醫院醫院的報告是資方的報告"},{"start":373.733,"end":394.801,"text":"講不客氣的 資方給你們的資料你有沒有去調查讓牢方 代表牢方的醫護人員他們都說他們沒有 那中間的落差在哪裡我們不停的在跟護理師公會或者公會做溝通我想不要讓我們的院長在那裡我們一定會很清晰來努力改善本席很認真的跟您說"},{"start":396.348,"end":410.022,"text":"看得到這是你衛福部部長的態度但是很實在的話過去到現在本席也非常多的護理工會也來跟我澄清絕對他們的月薪沒有到這樣子甚至所謂的"},{"start":411.892,"end":440.19,"text":"五萬塊六萬五都沒有辦法達到一個月平均是四萬多塊而這樣的狀況其實他們是用他們的熱情他們的時間來去支撐但我們更希望的是給他們更好的勞動條件我最後請教一下三班互併比我們的草案修正本會期能不能提出來行政院的版本有關三班互併比我們現在是用獎勵的"},{"start":441.141,"end":461.853,"text":"那不管是醫學中心當初在選舉的時候是誰講說一定要入法才有效力因為這個當初在選舉的時間是誰講兩年拚入法 四年拚實行那現在我這個會期因為醫療的院所也需要一個這個會期能不能出來 我只問能不能"},{"start":462.968,"end":482.659,"text":"跟委員報告 三方貨幣比剛剛部長說我們先用獎勵的方式在制度完全形成之前獎勵的方式達到直接給護理人員再來就是獎勵達標的意願所以看起來是沒有辦法出來未來我們是朝向更完整的一個法制面不過我今天肯定委員這樣的質詢的內容"},{"start":485.78,"end":502.067,"text":"統計數字最怕的就是沒有達到這個數字的會覺得被剝奪了但是這個7萬塊他到底是中位數還是什麼方式計算應該要標示清楚他所說的是一年的收入除以12所以有很多固定跟非固定但是一定要說明清楚"},{"start":502.907,"end":518.465,"text":"收入高於7萬塊的護理人員不會有意見不過我覺得那個是比較少的比較多的人他是沒有辦法達到但是平均下來看他會達到接近這樣的數字但是還是要說明清楚讓我透過今天這樣的方式請衛福部要跟護理人員 護理師們"},{"start":519.566,"end":543.325,"text":"充分說明清楚這個不是用這樣的數字來跟社會做一個假象的宣示而是大家要有一個共鳴您講的完全就是本席為什麼要求部長你用粉絲專業帶風向讓外界標籤汙名其實這個是不道德的本席更希望的是看到真真實實的我們一起努力好 部長請回 院長感謝"},{"start":544.775,"end":549.591,"text":"本席現在要講的是過去到現在我擔任五年的立法委員"},{"start":551.038,"end":578.14,"text":"資歷沒有很深但是我每一次部會首長來我辦公室討論預算的時候我一定告訴他們一件事情預算當用則用 當審則審但我身為在野黨的立委我不會要馬而好 又要馬而不吃草該給的預算 合理的預算我們會支持但重點是預算要花在刀口上來 院長今天早上我也聆聽了您的報告也看了早上的一個質詢"},{"start":579.738,"end":598.861,"text":"很遺憾你還是提出了復議你一直強調說這是憲政給你的一個權利但是在今年的二月的時候賴清德總統召開的五院的院長的會議時候韓國院長江啟臣副院長也代表立法院出席並且也都有釋出善意"},{"start":599.341,"end":622.288,"text":"包括韓國院長也特別提到說其實可以用追加預算的方式我們讓現在已經通過預算能夠先行如果真的有自愛難行或說真的有不足之處用追加預算的方式大家互相來溝通溝通溝通我們互相的來討論可以心平氣和對話但很顯然的你還是不願意接受所以還是提了復議"},{"start":623.368,"end":645.873,"text":"那也許明天才化法的詢答完畢之後再投票有可能這兩個復議案總預算跟才化法復議案也沒有辦法通過到時候你的任內還不到一年的任期已經五次復議失敗了院長你自己怎麼看五連敗的院長這樣子好看嗎"},{"start":646.849,"end":665.874,"text":"所以我說過這是富裕最多的行政院但是富裕不是好不好看的問題而是我們身為憲政機關唯一可以提出富裕的機關來 院長 那我再請教如果說每一次你都講自愛難行每一次都富裕沒有通過那你還是好官我自為之"},{"start":667.452,"end":683.244,"text":"你說你沒有辦法做那你又不願意換別人來做你還是持續在這個位置上如果換了任何一位有沒有任何的政治責任五次的復議失敗你認為你自己有沒有任何政治責任如果換任何一位院長面對的是"},{"start":684.105,"end":708.409,"text":"破壞憲政分際的法案 侵害人民的法案 自然難行的法案議員長 立法院是多數決我們經過民主的程序 合法 合規 合憲的情況送出來議員長 理性的溝通 我現在只請教的是說如果復議再次失敗 明天投出來 兩個復議案都沒有辦法通過有沒有政治責任"},{"start":709.96,"end":725.039,"text":"我們的政治責任在於說復議案如果沒有通過之後我們如何來挽救這個國家不會因為憲政分立被破壞人民權利被傷害以及沒有經過充分討論違反程序正義的這種法案"},{"start":725.76,"end":746.709,"text":"能夠對國家上都經過充分討論院長你這樣講我就非常的遺憾說實在話本席今天真的是很心平氣和因為討論到預算我還是強調我的觀念喔我是認為當用則用當省則省大家把錢花在刀口上我會支持但是重點在於是現在你們提出來的預算年增率是超過10%"},{"start":749.712,"end":775.072,"text":"兩兆九千三百多億的預算是中華民國總預算史上最高比去年的預算還多增加了七百億比二零一六年馬政府時代要卸任的時候還增加了將近一兆的預算如果說有那麼多的預算中華民國政府史上最高預算你們都還認為說自愛難行的話那不是非常荒謬嗎我們必須再說明一次再來這個預算裡面有兩千八百零六億是新增去年沒有的"},{"start":775.572,"end":801.86,"text":"但是大家把它當作空氣存在2000多億就是你年增10%我剛剛已經說了2000多億是剛剛新增的10%但是整個TOTAL全部結束之後還比去年多增加了700億這是不是事實但是你把它塞三減就但你要扣掉這2806億啊那去年沒有的啊沒關係你不想要這樣子你故意想要模糊焦點"},{"start":803.839,"end":825.649,"text":"來 院長我們再來討論去年的數字你再扣掉院長你要故意要模糊焦點我現在再來討論的是另外一個部分民進黨現在執政黨說要來發動所謂的全台大宣講那也看到你會帶著部會首長一起來下鄉宣講這些預算都不會用到我們中央政府總預算嗎"},{"start":827.216,"end":853.129,"text":"宣講是誰要花錢我不應該在這裡談黨務但是民進黨有沒有你會不會出席民進黨有沒有權利在發動出席出席宣講 會嘛外界報導是說你每一場都要參加我早上有說過了 復議案的結果我們有必要向外界說明 必須執行如果有適當的時間機會 有任何邀請這個宣講 我們政府官員會不會出席"},{"start":854.912,"end":881.966,"text":"如果我需要政策一半跟著我一起做說明也會出席如果需要政策一邊一邊做說明一邊這些政府官有些不是民進黨籍也會出席所以這個不是參加民進黨活動而已看起來就是民進黨活動還是民進黨發起的還中央黨部規劃咧來最後這個錢是誰要出一個任何團體這個宣講的活動是誰要出錢行政院已經沒有這個經費在"},{"start":883.444,"end":911.552,"text":"出這個錢沒有這個經費所以說我們部會首長下鄉前往包括說院長要出發的時候會有隨戶多增加的這個警務的同仁的開銷支出誰要出錢誰要買單在參加非公務的活動的時候我們自有分寸公私分明是所以你要自己掏腰包你如果說有隨戶的話自己掏腰包需要的時候就是自己掏腰包是這樣子嗎確定去參加的活動是什麼性質"},{"start":913.19,"end":935.293,"text":"來最後院長呂秀蓮前總統也是民進黨籍他講過一句話中央編了那麼多預算但是綠營到底做了什麼沒有人有印象所以呼籲有權者應該要下面閉嘴別再講自愛難行癱瘓國家不如端出政績院長你認同嗎就是這樣子我有必要"},{"start":937.435,"end":956.147,"text":"所以說你再認識什麼人我都會有意義的跟他說院長 再過兩個月你就是主惡靈你就是一年本席很由衷的希望看到當一年你的就職成績當然就是可以真真正正抬起重大向國人報告而不是到最後只是變成說我提了幾個"},{"start":969.458,"end":975.302,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝洪孟凱為的詢問 謝謝卓院長的答詢"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1185,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（14時47分）主席謝謝。麻煩請卓院長，還有衛福部邱部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長、衛福部邱部長，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，院長好、部長好。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我想先請教過年結束之後，最近我要先幫我們的醫護人員講講話，因為醫護人員真的非常辛苦。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：尤其疫情期間的時候，我們看到很多醫護人員在第一線撐過之後到現在，我們也持續希望能夠給醫護人員合理的待遇。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：可是醫護人員的短缺跟勞動條件，其實是很大的問題。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：它跟預算沒有那麼直接的關係，因為最大的離職潮是在疫情之後跟去年6月。所以醫護人員希望的是能夠改善醫護的勞動空間、勞動條件，是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：是的，我想改善醫護工作條件是政府一直在努力的，行政院在……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以它是長期以來的一個問題。"],["邱部長泰源：那也一直在解決。"],["洪委員孟楷：過去你擔任立法委員的時候也很關心，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：那就沒有存在什麼因為刪預算、凍結預算，而造成醫護人員的負擔嘛！因為過去預算一樣照常給你們使用，過去8年民進黨政府不是每一次國會多數的時候都支持衛福部的預算，但是最大的離職潮就在疫情之後跟去年6月，那醫護人員的辛苦到底誰來幫他們發聲？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，如果預算受到凍結或刪減，其實還是有影響到醫護環境的改善。"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在講的是之前的狀況，你剛剛也已經承認了嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：一直在努力、一直在努力，但是……"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是之前就有離職潮，這是不是長期的問題？所以我們是不是應該要一起努力解決長期的問題？"],["邱部長泰源：當然、當然，是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，部長，我再請教一下，我一定要利用這個機會讓你說明清楚，醫護人員的月薪有平均7萬塊嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們的衛福部粉專說護理師的月薪有7萬，結果基層整個大炸鍋，我們看一下新聞報導講說醫護人員紛紛表達不滿，認為衛福部是誘導、誤導，而且這樣反而是污名化，好像讓醫護人員覺得他們是坐領高薪，讓外界覺得是有對立，但實際上他們薪水有那麼多嗎？甚至有人講不知道是哪一個大腦袋想出來的。來！月薪是行情價嗎？是灌水灌到離譜的價格。還有現在有沒有看到護理師在網上發起什麼運動？發起貼出薪資單的運動，他把他的薪資單貼出來，每一個護理師都說「抱歉！我拉低了平均薪資。」「抱歉！我沒有達到七萬。」那我們想請教，如果護理師沒有達到七萬的話，衛福部是不是要編列預算補足？部長，給你一個機會澄清一下，護理師的待遇有平均月薪七萬元嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，醫護同仁真的工作非常辛苦，他們的待遇如果能夠一直提升是我們很期待的事情。第二、這個網站上面所呈現的是一個年收入，要除以12，是112年11月的時候由縣市衛生署邀請各地的醫院，把護理人員的薪資，包括固定跟非固定，當然可能還包括獎金、年終獎金等等，除以12以後得出的一個數目，我幾乎問過所有重要的醫院，尤其是北部，不管是臺大、北醫、馬偕、長庚，這個報告的薪資是不是真實的，他們說絕對是真實的，我昨天也問新光醫院院長，他也說絕對是真實的。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在就是這些護理人員說謊？"],["邱部長泰源：它是年收入，而且是平均值，第一、這是醫院的，可能除了醫院本身有不同的病房以外，還有就是在診所……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以也有不同病房的狀況，也有不同輪班的狀況，也有日班、夜班的狀況……"],["邱部長泰源：對，也有在醫務室的，也有在長照的。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在主要問的是護理人員現在被貼上一個標籤，而這個標籤是從衛福部來的，是衛福部告訴大家說，護理人員平均月薪有七萬，請教有嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想這是醫院報出來的整個年收入，要除以12。"],["洪委員孟楷：你要推給醫院？這是衛福部的粉絲專頁po的，那你是要推給醫院？"],["邱部長泰源：那個網站是公開的，大家都可以上去查，如果醫院有不真實的，就可能會有問題，而且當時的目的是希望……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我們衛福部有沒有去查證？"],["邱部長泰源：護理人員如果知道每一家醫院的待遇是多少，他比較方便去申請。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們衛福部有沒有去查證？衛福部有沒有去理解？現在我怎麼感覺你好像站在資方的立場在講話？"],["邱部長泰源：沒有，沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在希望的是幫我們醫護人員來爭取應有的權利。"],["邱部長泰源：委員，我從當委員、醫師公會……"],["洪委員孟楷：不應該被污名化。"],["邱部長泰源：我完完全全就是希望跟政府一起努力，把醫護的工作環境弄好，待遇提升……"],["洪委員孟楷：就是因為這樣子，所以才不應該用衛福部的粉絲專頁這樣做。部長，我時間有限，我覺得你剛剛沒有辦法回答問題，因為這是衛福部的粉絲專頁貼出來的，而你現在居然全部都推給醫院。醫院的報告是資方的報告，講不客氣的，資方給你們的資料，你有沒有去調查？代表勞方的醫護人員，他們都說他們沒有，那中間的落差在哪裡？"],["邱部長泰源：我們不停的在跟護理師公會或者工會溝通……"],["洪委員孟楷：我想不要讓我們的院長站太久……"],["邱部長泰源：他們的心聲，我們一定會很謙虛的來努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，本席很認真的跟您說，看得到這是你衛福部部長的態度，但是說實在話，從過去到現在也有非常多的護理工會來跟我陳情，他們的月薪絕對沒有到這樣子，甚至所謂的五萬塊、六萬五都沒有辦法達到，一個月平均是四萬多塊，而這樣的狀況其實是他們用他們的熱情、他們的時間去支撐的，但我們更希望的是給他們更好的勞動條件。","我最後請教一下三班護病比修正草案的行政院版本本會期能不能提出來？"],["邱部長泰源：有關三班護病比我們現在是用獎勵的，不管是醫學中心、區域醫院……"],["洪委員孟楷：當初在選舉的時候是誰講說一定要入法才有效力？"],["邱部長泰源：因為這個……"],["洪委員孟楷：當初在選舉的時間是誰講兩年拚入法、四年拚執行？"],["邱部長泰源：我們會努力，目前因為醫療院所也需要……"],["洪委員孟楷：這個會期能不能出來？我只問能不能，看來是不能，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，三班護病比剛剛部長說我們是用獎勵的方式，在制度完全形成之前，用獎勵的方式直接給護理人員，再來就是獎勵達標的醫院。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以看起來是沒有辦法出來。"],["卓院長榮泰：未來我們是朝向更完整的法制面，不過我非常肯定委員這樣的質詢內容。統計數字最怕的就是，沒有達到這個數字的會覺得被剝奪了，但這7萬塊到底是中位數還是怎麼的方式計算，應該要標示清楚，他所說的是一年的收入除以十二，所以有很多固定跟非固定，但一定要說明清楚。收入高於7萬塊的護理人員不會有意見，不過我覺得那是比較少的，比較多的人沒有辦法達到，而平均下來看它會達到接近這樣的數字，但還是要說明清楚。我希望透過今天這樣的方式，請衛福部要跟護理人員、護理師們充分說明清楚，不是用這樣的數字跟社會做一個假象的宣示，而是大家要有一個……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，您講的完全就是本席為什麼要求部長，你用粉絲專頁帶風向，讓外界標籤、污名，其實這個是不道德的。本席更希望的是看到真真實實地我們一起努力，部長請回。院長，感謝。","本席現在要講的是，過去到現在，我擔任5年立法委員，資歷沒有很深，但是每一次部會首長來我辦公室討論預算的時候，我一定告訴他們一件事情，預算當用則用，當省則省，而我身為在野黨的立委，我不會要馬兒好又要馬兒不吃草，該給的預算、合理的預算我們會支持，重點是預算要花在刀口上。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：今天早上我聆聽了您的報告，也看了早上的質詢，很遺憾你還是提出了覆議，你一直強調這是憲政給你的一個權力。但是在今年2月，賴清德總統召開五院院長會議的時候，韓國瑜院長、江啟臣副院長代表立法院出席，並且都有釋出善意，包括韓國瑜院長也特別提到其實可以用追加預算的方式。我們讓現在已經通過預算能夠先行，如果真的有窒礙難行或真的有不足之處，用追加預算的方式大家互相溝通，我們互相討論，可以心平氣和對話。但很顯然地你還是不願意接受，所以還是提了覆議。也許明天財劃法的詢答完畢之後再投票，有可能這兩個覆議案──總預算跟財劃法的覆議案也沒有辦法通過，到時候你的任內還不到一年的任期已經5次覆議失敗了。院長，你自己怎麼看？五連敗的院長，這樣子好看嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我說過這是覆議最多的行政院，但是覆議不是好不好看的問題，而是我們身為憲政機關、唯一可以提出覆議的機關，我必須善盡這個責任。"],["洪委員孟楷：那我再請教，如果每一次你都講窒礙難行，每一次都覆議沒有通過，而你還是好官我自為之，你說你沒有辦法做，那你又不願意換別人來做，你還是持續在這個位置上……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果換了任何一位院長……"],["洪委員孟楷：那你有沒有任何的政治責任？5次的覆議失敗，你認為你自己有沒有任何的政治責任？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果換了任何一位院長，面對的是破壞憲政分際的法案、侵害人民的法案、窒礙難行的法案，以及沒有充分溝通的法案……"],["洪委員孟楷：立法院是多數決，我們經過民主程序，合法、合規、合憲的情況下送出來。院長，理性的溝通，我現在只是請教，如果覆議再次失敗，明天投出來2個覆議案都沒有辦法通過，有沒有政治責任？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的政治責任在於，覆議案如果沒有通過之後，我們如何挽救這個國家不會因為憲政分立被破壞、人民權利被傷害，以及沒有經過充分討論違反程序正義的這種法案，能夠對國家造成多大的……"],["洪委員孟楷：每一項都經過充分討論。院長，你這樣講，我就非常遺憾。說實在話，本席今天真的是很心平氣和，因為討論到預算，我還是強調我的觀念，我是認為當用則用，當省則省，大家把錢花在刀口上我會支持。但重點在於現在你們提出來的預算年增率超過10%，兩兆九千三百多億的預算是中華民國總預算史上最高，比去年的預算還多、增加了700億，比2016年馬政府時代要卸任的時候還增加了將近1兆預算。如果有那麼多的預算、中華民國政府史上最高的預算，你們都還認為窒礙難行的話，那不是非常荒謬嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們必須再說明一次，這個預算裡面有2,806億是新增、去年沒有的，但是大家把它當作空氣不存在。"],["洪委員孟楷：我剛剛已經講了，兩千多億就是你年增10%……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以年增10%，你再往下怎麼辦呢？"],["洪委員孟楷：我剛剛已經說了，兩千多億，新增了10%，但是整個total全部結束之後，還比去年多增加了700億，這是不是事實？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是你把它再刪減以後……"],["洪委員孟楷：這是不是事實？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是你要扣掉這2,806億啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：那就對了啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：這是去年沒有的啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，沒關係，你不想要這樣子、你故意想要模糊焦點！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是、不是、不是……"],["洪委員孟楷：來，院長，我們再來討論……"],["卓院長榮泰：去年的數字你再扣掉……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，你故意要模糊焦點！"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有模糊焦點。"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在要來討論的是另外一個部分。民進黨（現在的執政黨）說要來發動所謂的全臺大宣講，我們也看到你會帶著部會首長一起下鄉宣講，這些預算都不會用到我們的中央政府總預算嗎？宣講是誰要花錢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我不應該在這裡談黨務，但是民進黨有沒有……"],["洪委員孟楷：你會不會出席？"],["卓院長榮泰：民進黨有沒有全力在發動……"],["洪委員孟楷：你會不會出席？"],["卓院長榮泰：出席？"],["洪委員孟楷：出席宣講。會嘛！外界報導是說你每一場都要參加啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我早上有說過了，覆議案的結果我們有必要向外界說明預算執行有沒有困難……"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛！會不會出席？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果有適當的時間、機會，有任何的邀請……"],["洪委員孟楷：這個宣講我們的政府官員會不會出席？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果有政策需要，會跟著我一起做說明。"],["洪委員孟楷：也會出席？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果有政策需要，會一併做說明。"],["洪委員孟楷：即便政府官員有些不是民進黨籍，他們也會出席？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以這個不是參加民進黨活動而已，如果有……"],["洪委員孟楷：看起來就是民進黨的活動啊！它是民進黨發起的，還中央黨部規劃嘞！"],["卓院長榮泰：任何團體……"],["洪委員孟楷：再來，這個錢是誰要出？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個，任何團體……"],["洪委員孟楷：這個宣講的活動是誰要出錢？"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院已經沒有這個經費來出這個錢……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有這個經費？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以部會首長下鄉前往，包括院長要出發的時候會有隨扈，多增加的警務同仁的開銷、支出，誰要出錢？誰要買單？"],["卓院長榮泰：在參加非公務活動的時候，我們自有分寸、公私分明。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你要自己掏腰包？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，如果有需要的話。"],["洪委員孟楷：你如果有隨扈的話，要自己掏腰包？"],["卓院長榮泰：需要的時候就是自己掏腰包。"],["洪委員孟楷：是這樣子嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：嗯。"],["洪委員孟楷：確定？"],["卓院長榮泰：要看去參加的活動是什麼性質。"],["洪委員孟楷：最後，呂秀蓮前副總統也是民進黨籍，他講過一句話：中央編列那麼多預算，但是綠營到底做了什麼？沒有人有印象，所以呼籲有權者應該要叫下面的人閉嘴，別再講窒礙難行、癱瘓國家，不如端出政績。院長，你認同嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是這樣子！我有必要向呂副總統說明，包括呂副總統在內的國人，我都有必要跟他說明。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，再過2個月就是520，你就職一年，本席很由衷地希望看到，當你提出就職屆滿一年的成績單的時候，可以真真正正挺起胸膛向國人報告，而不是到最後只變成自己提了幾個覆議案、搞了什麼罷免、增加了什麼樣的預算！我覺得我們都要為臺灣努力，一起打拚……"],["卓院長榮泰：在本會期的施政報告當中，我已經報告了相當多的內容了。"],["洪委員孟楷：一起為臺灣加油，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：本會期的施政報告有很多的內容，再請委員指教。謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：我每一個都會看，院長您放心。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：你的報告、部會的報告，我每個都會看。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的詢問，謝謝卓院長的答詢。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","林倩綺","范雲","林國成","賴瑞隆","王定宇","徐欣瑩","林岱樺","許宇甄","郭國文","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","葛如鈞"],"page_start":191,"meetingDate":["2025-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1142501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第2次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案」覆議案","agenda_id":"1142501_00019"}}}