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0.993}, {\"word\": \"來\"}]}, {\"start\": 205.253, \"end\": 207.664, \"text\": \"尤其才化法大概只有部長來找找我\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"尤\", \"start\": 205.253, \"end\": 205.394, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 205.394, \"end\": 205.555, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 205.555, \"end\": 205.735, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 205.735, \"end\": 205.976, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 205.976, \"end\": 206.398, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 206.398, \"end\": 206.499, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 206.499, \"end\": 206.619, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 206.619, \"end\": 206.72, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 206.72, \"end\": 206.84, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 206.84, \"end\": 207.262, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"找\", \"start\": 207.262, \"end\": 207.443, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"找\", \"start\": 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930.745, \"end\": 930.927, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"珊\", \"start\": 930.927, \"end\": 930.947, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"瑋\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,951 --> 00:00:08,573\n謝謝主席我請院長那請卓院長黃議員好院長好我想今天是財化法的復議案也是非常重要下午就要投票我想院長到立法院來當然希望能夠說服委員復議案的內容但是我想我進到立法院一年的時間這一年來\n\n2\n00:00:35,461 --> 00:00:57,830\n行政院包括民進黨的立法院黨團對於才化法應該都不陌生我們在上個會期通過但是我們在第一個會期就已經提案而且院長上任520的時候我相信各黨團也都有跟你報告我們要把才化法列為優先法案是嗎你應該都知道吧我知道所以院長今天\n\n3\n00:01:04,420 --> 00:01:28,877\n你們到這邊來財化法是從賴清德市長到賴清德院長還有蕭美琴立委以及柯建民總召在立法院的時候都提過要修正的最重要的法案之一但是我們看到執政黨在這場財化法的討論協商的過程裡面不溝通不解決\n\n4\n00:01:30,930 --> 00:01:58,748\n我甚至發現我們是只會造謠撕裂台灣這是我非常非常難過的地方因為財化法的版本台灣民眾黨在四月份就已經提出來而且也請財政部去提出他們所謂的事權分配或者是他們的計算方式甚至是你們現在使用的公式我們都來幫你入法沒有人理我們台灣民眾黨的版本跟國民黨的版本不一樣民進黨\n\n5\n00:02:01,918 --> 00:02:15,315\n寧可完全不支持不討論也不願意接受支持民眾黨的版本這點是我們在立法院最遺憾的事院長我想問你一下接下來你要怎麼辦\n\n6\n00:02:19,093 --> 00:02:39,221\n兩點先跟委員報告過去財化法跟現在過去的中央跟地方的財政跟現在是不一樣101年地方財政你這些講的我們都聽過了我現在只問你今天以後你的下一步是什麼你的下一步是市縣還是公投很多我們的溝通方式\n\n7\n00:02:40,546 --> 00:02:46,193\n有些委員是知道的我們曾經嘗試過溝通有的溝通是沒有溝通的你拒絕溝通的次數有些委員是清楚的\n\n8\n00:02:58,027 --> 00:03:24,378\n院長那我就分享一下怎麼溝通協委員不敢跟我們溝通也是鐵的事實台北市政府每一個議員都有一位專門的聯絡人去了解他所有的意見第二個我身為副市長當總聯絡人我要知道每一個議員的意見第三個如果沒有辦法處理我是副市長我要親自帶隊去跟每一位委員溝通我在立法院這一年來\n\n9\n00:03:25,253 --> 00:03:27,664\n尤其才化法大概只有部長來找找我\n\n10\n00:03:28,663 --> 00:03:55,834\n主計長來找找我我沒有見過行政院的高層包括秘書長副秘書長甚至院長來跟我們討論有關財化法的機構部長主計長當然就代表行政院代表整個政府啊我覺得溝通的問題是我在選走預算的時候我直接告訴你有民進黨的立法委員跑過來跟我們說拜託我們拿個預算要怎麼辦我說為什麼是委員來說明他說因為部會首長被下令不能來溝通有這回事嗎\n\n11\n00:03:56,823 --> 00:04:22,005\n我們沒有下這個令所以是民進黨的委員騙我們了不是沒有下這個令說不能溝通我的意思是說溝通是重要的但是現在的行政院包括相關的黨團只會放話只會要挾這一點不是國家之福所以我想問你下一步你要做什麼事實就有一點出入了所以下一步呢您的下一步是什麼\n\n12\n00:04:22,981 --> 00:04:35,556\n您的下一步是釋憲還是要公投一項案跟財化法好像是不能公投的只要合法合憲的程序在復議案沒有辦法成立之後我們都會考量所以下一步還不知道\n\n13\n00:04:37,086 --> 00:05:01,586\n希望等一下的這個表決對財化法方面王委員能夠跟過去一樣有所堅持我再跟您說明一下我們的版本非常的清楚我們把施行的日期都延到一年之後我們把所謂的水平分配由所謂的委員會來做相關的分配不會訂出相關這麼嚴格的公式但是你們不理我們\n\n14\n00:05:02,347 --> 00:05:23,735\n也沒有人要理我們這才是問題明明可以好好討論的事情因為行政院的漠視所以不願意處理我們的版本我們8票投自己啊你們51票沒有投我們啊這個不要怪我只能怪你們如果你們51票投我們的話我們的版本是會通過的所以今天的問題是咎由自取\n\n15\n00:05:25,107 --> 00:05:46,944\n這個最嚴重的是財化法通過之後我們的行政院發言人第一時間出來說這樣子喔114年的預算要從編馬上立刻下所有的人民所有的立委所以部長你們114年的預算有從編嗎沒有從編而且我們沒有從編所以他是恐嚇人民還是隨便亂說話已經送予大院審議院長你也應該知道你的發言人說過這樣的話嘛對不對\n\n16\n00:05:53,865 --> 00:06:00,952\n從放話到要挾非常要不得另外一個我想問一下接下來115年的預算要怎麼編我們期待財化法能夠有更合理的討論在中央所以今天復議案不通過之後115年的預算你們編還是不編\n\n17\n00:06:13,846 --> 00:06:40,244\n預算當然是要編要如何編要怎麼編我們要努力讓它發生到還有新法編還是又要去釋憲然後用假處分來卡住所有的預算地方政府要怎麼編你要不要告訴我一下我們可以用你剛剛說的那兩個方式之外還有其他方式什麼方式也可以重新請大家提出一個新的版本你現在不告訴我們你的方式我們的國家要停擺嗎\n\n18\n00:06:42,042 --> 00:07:07,198\n我們不是沒有溝通就是新法法通過了就是要執行我們這裡很多的方案都是在12月20號以前要來談的12月20號以前要來那個禮拜立法院大院裡面的程序有可以談的時間空間嗎我們今天已經是附議案的投票前的詢問你還是沒有任何的方案只有一個方案就是我要去大罷免是嗎我沒有這麼說我以為你怎麼可以這樣\n\n19\n00:07:12,119 --> 00:07:31,968\n我這樣看起來你們只有一個方案啊如果一個沒有辦法治國的榮譽大罷免是不是你的偏方我們的方案就在這裡因為20號以前就要談了這是沒有機會談你的方案是什麼我現在在尋答請你回答我你的方案是什麼你有忠責中信的版本嗎你有你們行政院的版本了嗎\n\n20\n00:07:32,848 --> 00:07:54,318\n當然有拿出來啊我們大家也許可以考慮啊那個階段我們是希望在立法院裡面今天有沒有拿不拿出來讓我們看到你的版本我們去討論一下也許會考慮啊所以院長到今天這個時刻沒有版本是嗎有版本跟地方在談啊跟地方在談不用跟立法院談\n\n21\n00:07:55,530 --> 00:08:20,229\n跟要投你復议票的立法委员党团要跟地方谈到有一个共识之后我们形成一个所以现在的问题就是我们的行政院到復议这一天都还没有端出你们的所谓的院板来跟立法院的党团来说明地方沟通的状况跟委员说明我们在3月6号邀请专家学者还有地方政府来开会第一个就是说\n\n22\n00:08:20,609 --> 00:08:45,840\n妳的3月6號是2025年的3月6號12月就通過了妳3月6號在開什麼會啊妳在演戲嗎在總預算裡面在審查的時候委員還有提案要求我們去年6月就叫妳提版本了整整8個月院長妳上任的時候520到現在整整8個月到通過的時候整整8個月件事情都沒做\n\n23\n00:08:46,380 --> 00:08:53,402\n從我們要求你們6月19號要求你們通過歷史提案要求行政院提版本到12月整整6個月院長也應該很清楚部長更清楚最重要的是到今天復議案你還是沒有願板如果你今天有願板也許拿出來我們可以考慮\n\n24\n00:09:16,380 --> 00:09:43,662\n但是沒有院版的情況下我們如何通過今天的服役案第二個如果只是拿過來要證明行政院又是一個悲情內閣我覺得沒有必要接下去要為你們的大罷免加柴火嗎所以院長你支持大罷免嗎大罷免是民間人民團體所提出的跟行政院的業務無關所以跟你沒關係所以你支持還是不支持呢\n\n25\n00:09:45,031 --> 00:10:14,132\n我們是維護人民的各種參政權利我們不會去表態支持或不支持政治的立場那接下來的問題是現在接下去大罷免會是行政院到下鄉開講的內容之一嗎無關財化法的討論過程院長知道吧這個過程非常的清楚喔非常多次四月份我們就提案了內容財政部非常清楚一直到協商完成\n\n26\n00:10:14,878 --> 00:10:34,755\n重點是行政院為什麼一直不願意談因為錢跟權太像了集錢集權是行政院最大的權利最嚴重的是我覺得就是剛剛你講的提了服役案你們是現在才召開遵循會議是不是演太大了\n\n27\n00:10:35,523 --> 00:11:03,030\n我們不是現在才召開會議委員你這樣是誤會了2025年3月開會12月通過然後2025年3月開會請問在這中間有找過三個黨團來做協商嗎有跟台灣民眾黨有跟國民黨團來做協商說你們要提中間版本嗎當然有跟黨團提過跟誰提過啊好像只有找了政委要找各黨團總召私下密會不是嗎\n\n28\n00:11:04,775 --> 00:11:34,519\n什麼叫私下密會昨天黃國昌總召已經說了你們派政委馬永成要來私下密會不是嗎他可以這樣說他得罪的是他的朋友好所以結論就是現場我再說的是開大門走大路不需要做這件事立法院我覺得就很簡單就如同行政單位只要你願意我相信每個委員都想聽你們的東西我也很想知道院版我也很想知道你們接下來想要\n\n29\n00:11:35,011 --> 00:11:54,616\n提出的折衷方案但是沒有折衷方案只希望大家起義來歸是不會成功的有機會讓我們談嗎接下來的事喔你們拒絕談判談的次數有多少我們從頭到尾沒有拒絕我黃珊珊財政部來過幾次了我的版本就長在那邊從頭到尾我就說這個版本請你們考慮\n\n30\n00:11:56,432 --> 00:12:01,776\n從頭到尾我的立場都一樣所以也就是說我剛剛講的我們說了很清楚我們的時間壓在一年後我們的分配公式交給國園會沒有影響到你們的內容這個部分沒有談嗎\n\n31\n00:12:16,158 --> 00:12:38,423\n但是垂直分配跟水平分配的事情財政部還有更精密的算法所以重點是你們連這兩條都不支持我們的版本才會產生今天的結果最後為什麼要這樣院長雖然潛在運算不是你任內的但是8400億是前任政府的但他的內容都是在搶地方的工作不是嗎\n\n32\n00:12:39,895 --> 00:12:55,303\n前瞻建設政府用舉債的方式去搶了地方本來就應該做的事這不就是財化法應該要把該給地方的錢還給地方讓地方做他該做的事嗎前瞻建設做什麼鋪馬路修房子\n\n33\n00:12:56,388 --> 00:13:24,565\n治水蓋停車場做觀光建設哪一件事情不是地方該做的事當然該做但是要把錢給地方做它本來就該做的事而不是把錢全部留在你中央由你中央來統籌讓你做什麼做聖誕老公公你們最厲害的是什麼行政院最厲害的是把發給所有民眾的錢的最後存摺那一塊上面加一個行政院發這就是跟地方政府搶功勞嘛\n\n34\n00:13:25,939 --> 00:13:53,724\n這不是搶功勞搶政績只想要讓中央讓地方變成看中央的臉色做事啊我常常說沒有一件事行政院可以單獨完成一定要立法院合作也沒有一件事中央可以單獨完成一定要立法院合作但是你們沒有要跟立法院合作最後我想問一下現在行政院要不要繼續擺爛115年的概算你們到底要怎麼編你的解決方案是什麼\n\n35\n00:13:55,011 --> 00:14:23,658\n我們會尋求一個最合理的財政收支發動法的方式來做負議案的當天沒有辦法回答我們一百一十五年的預算怎麼編列這一點是非常可怕我們今天談的是負議案不是談一個行政院的版本所以一百一十五年的預算就要編了我們今天如果提出一個行政版本委員就會支持負議案嗎不可能嗎所以我認為如果你今天提出一個版本我們可能會支持啊如果今天提出一個版本我們為什麼可能會不支持呢\n\n36\n00:14:25,555 --> 00:14:42,428\n副議案就是讓我們有重新談的機會我們的版本就在我的手上這個案子一發生之後組計長第一時間告訴全世界我們所有的預算每一個部會的預算都要捅殺28%這是從3753寫下來的這個還是我們最大的問題是這個行政院不想說明只想造謠\n\n37\n00:14:49,400 --> 00:15:01,596\n最後一個問題委員你又用造謠兩個字這不應該從委員的嘴巴裡面講出來我看到的造謠不應該這麼說公獎金不能發了國防預算受影響了育兒今天不能發這不是造謠嗎\n\n38\n00:15:02,810 --> 00:15:07,695\n20年前的謝院長他說了一句話共生和解協商對話這些原則要一言一行去證明這個狀態的落實您當時是行政院秘書長請問你有什麼感想\n\n39\n00:15:30,523 --> 00:15:30,947\n好謝謝黃珊珊瑋\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5951\t8573\t謝謝主席我請院長那請卓院長黃議員好院長好我想今天是財化法的復議案也是非常重要下午就要投票我想院長到立法院來當然希望能夠說服委員復議案的內容但是我想我進到立法院一年的時間這一年來\n35461\t57830\t行政院包括民進黨的立法院黨團對於才化法應該都不陌生我們在上個會期通過但是我們在第一個會期就已經提案而且院長上任520的時候我相信各黨團也都有跟你報告我們要把才化法列為優先法案是嗎你應該都知道吧我知道所以院長今天\n64420\t88877\t你們到這邊來財化法是從賴清德市長到賴清德院長還有蕭美琴立委以及柯建民總召在立法院的時候都提過要修正的最重要的法案之一但是我們看到執政黨在這場財化法的討論協商的過程裡面不溝通不解決\n90930\t118748\t我甚至發現我們是只會造謠撕裂台灣這是我非常非常難過的地方因為財化法的版本台灣民眾黨在四月份就已經提出來而且也請財政部去提出他們所謂的事權分配或者是他們的計算方式甚至是你們現在使用的公式我們都來幫你入法沒有人理我們台灣民眾黨的版本跟國民黨的版本不一樣民進黨\n121918\t135315\t寧可完全不支持不討論也不願意接受支持民眾黨的版本這點是我們在立法院最遺憾的事院長我想問你一下接下來你要怎麼辦\n139093\t159221\t兩點先跟委員報告過去財化法跟現在過去的中央跟地方的財政跟現在是不一樣101年地方財政你這些講的我們都聽過了我現在只問你今天以後你的下一步是什麼你的下一步是市縣還是公投很多我們的溝通方式\n160546\t166193\t有些委員是知道的我們曾經嘗試過溝通有的溝通是沒有溝通的你拒絕溝通的次數有些委員是清楚的\n178027\t204378\t院長那我就分享一下怎麼溝通協委員不敢跟我們溝通也是鐵的事實台北市政府每一個議員都有一位專門的聯絡人去了解他所有的意見第二個我身為副市長當總聯絡人我要知道每一個議員的意見第三個如果沒有辦法處理我是副市長我要親自帶隊去跟每一位委員溝通我在立法院這一年來\n205253\t207664\t尤其才化法大概只有部長來找找我\n208663\t235834\t主計長來找找我 我沒有見過行政院的高層包括秘書長 副秘書長 甚至院長來跟我們討論有關財化法的機構部長 主計長 當然就代表行政院 代表整個政府啊我覺得溝通的問題是我在選走預算的時候 我直接告訴你有民進黨的立法委員跑過來跟我們說拜託我們拿個預算要怎麼辦我說為什麼是委員來說明他說因為部會首長被下令不能來溝通有這回事嗎\n236823\t262005\t我們沒有下這個令所以是民進黨的委員騙我們了不是沒有下這個令說不能溝通我的意思是說溝通是重要的但是現在的行政院包括相關的黨團只會放話只會要挾這一點不是國家之福所以我想問你下一步你要做什麼事實就有一點出入了所以下一步呢 您的下一步是什麼\n262981\t275556\t您的下一步是釋憲還是要公投一項案跟財化法好像是不能公投的只要合法合憲的程序在復議案沒有辦法成立之後我們都會考量所以下一步還不知道\n277086\t301586\t希望等一下的這個表決對財化法方面王委員能夠跟過去一樣有所堅持我再跟您說明一下我們的版本非常的清楚我們把施行的日期都延到一年之後我們把所謂的水平分配由所謂的委員會來做相關的分配不會訂出相關這麼嚴格的公式但是你們不理我們\n302347\t323735\t也沒有人要理我們這才是問題明明可以好好討論的事情因為行政院的漠視所以不願意處理我們的版本我們8票投自己啊你們51票沒有投我們啊這個不要怪我只能怪你們如果你們51票投我們的話我們的版本是會通過的所以今天的問題是咎由自取\n325107\t346944\t這個最嚴重的是 財化法通過之後我們的行政院發言人第一時間出來說這樣子喔 114年的預算要從編馬上立刻下所有的人民 所有的立委所以部長 你們114年的預算有從編嗎沒有從編 而且我們沒有從編所以他是恐嚇人民 還是隨便亂說話已經送予大院審議院長 你也應該知道你的發言人說過這樣的話嘛 對不對\n353865\t360952\t從放話到要挾非常要不得另外一個我想問一下接下來115年的預算要怎麼編我們期待財化法能夠有更合理的討論在中央所以今天復議案不通過之後115年的預算你們編還是不編\n373846\t400244\t預算當然是要編 要如何編 要怎麼編我們要努力讓它發生到 還有新法編還是又要去釋憲然後用假處分來卡住所有的預算地方政府要怎麼編你要不要告訴我一下我們可以用你剛剛說的那兩個方式之外 還有其他方式什麼方式 也可以重新請大家提出一個新的版本你現在不告訴我們你的方式我們的國家要停擺嗎\n402042\t427198\t我們不是沒有溝通就是新法 法通過了就是要執行我們這裡很多的方案都是在12月20號以前要來談的12月20號以前要來那個禮拜立法院大院裡面的程序有可以談的時間空間嗎我們今天已經是附議案的投票前的詢問你還是沒有任何的方案只有一個方案就是我要去大罷免 是嗎我沒有這麼說 我以為你怎麼可以這樣\n432119\t451968\t我這樣看起來你們只有一個方案啊如果一個沒有辦法治國的榮譽大罷免是不是你的偏方我們的方案就在這裡因為20號以前就要談了這是沒有機會談你的方案是什麼我現在在尋答請你回答我你的方案是什麼你有忠責中信的版本嗎你有你們行政院的版本了嗎\n452848\t474318\t當然有拿出來啊 我們大家也許可以考慮啊那個階段我們是希望在立法院裡面今天有沒有 拿不拿出來讓我們看到你的版本 我們去討論一下也許會考慮啊所以 院長 到今天這個時刻沒有版本 是嗎有版本跟地方在談啊跟地方在談 不用跟立法院談\n475530\t500229\t跟要投你復议票的立法委员党团要跟地方谈到有一个共识之后我们形成一个所以现在的问题就是我们的行政院到復议这一天都还没有端出你们的所谓的院板来跟立法院的党团来说明地方沟通的状况跟委员说明我们在3月6号邀请专家学者还有地方政府来开会第一个就是说\n500609\t525840\t妳的3月6號是2025年的3月6號12月就通過了妳3月6號在開什麼會啊妳在演戲嗎在總預算裡面在審查的時候委員還有提案要求我們去年6月就叫妳提版本了整整8個月 院長妳上任的時候520到現在整整8個月到通過的時候整整8個月 件事情都沒做\n526380\t533402\t從我們要求你們6月19號要求你們通過歷史提案要求行政院提版本到12月整整6個月院長也應該很清楚部長更清楚最重要的是到今天復議案你還是沒有願板如果你今天有願板也許拿出來我們可以考慮\n556380\t583662\t但是沒有院版的情況下我們如何通過今天的服役案第二個如果只是拿過來要證明行政院又是一個悲情內閣我覺得沒有必要接下去要為你們的大罷免加柴火嗎所以院長你支持大罷免嗎大罷免是民間人民團體所提出的跟行政院的業務無關所以跟你沒關係所以你支持還是不支持呢\n585031\t614132\t我們是維護人民的各種參政權利我們不會去表態支持或不支持政治的立場那接下來的問題是現在接下去大罷免會是行政院到下鄉開講的內容之一嗎無關財化法的討論過程院長知道吧這個過程非常的清楚喔非常多次四月份我們就提案了內容財政部非常清楚一直到協商完成\n614878\t634755\t重點是行政院為什麼一直不願意談因為錢跟權太像了集錢集權是行政院最大的權利最嚴重的是我覺得就是剛剛你講的提了服役案你們是現在才召開遵循會議是不是演太大了\n635523\t663030\t我們不是現在才召開會議委員你這樣是誤會了2025年3月開會12月通過然後2025年3月開會請問在這中間有找過三個黨團來做協商嗎有跟台灣民眾黨有跟國民黨團來做協商說你們要提中間版本嗎當然有跟黨團提過跟誰提過啊好像只有找了 政委要找各黨團總召私下密會不是嗎\n664775\t694519\t什麼叫私下密會昨天黃國昌總召已經說了你們派政委馬永成要來私下密會不是嗎他可以這樣說他得罪的是他的朋友好所以結論就是現場我再說的是開大門走大路不需要做這件事立法院我覺得就很簡單就如同行政單位只要你願意我相信每個委員都想聽你們的東西我也很想知道院版我也很想知道你們接下來想要\n695011\t714616\t提出的折衷方案但是沒有折衷方案只希望大家起義來歸是不會成功的有機會讓我們談嗎接下來的事喔你們拒絕談判談的次數有多少我們從頭到尾沒有拒絕我黃珊珊財政部來過幾次了我的版本就長在那邊從頭到尾我就說這個版本請你們考慮\n716432\t721776\t從頭到尾我的立場都一樣所以也就是說我剛剛講的我們說了很清楚我們的時間壓在一年後我們的分配公式交給國園會沒有影響到你們的內容這個部分沒有談嗎\n736158\t758423\t但是垂直分配跟水平分配的事情財政部還有更精密的算法所以重點是你們連這兩條都不支持我們的版本才會產生今天的結果最後為什麼要這樣院長雖然潛在運算不是你任內的但是8400億是前任政府的但他的內容都是在搶地方的工作不是嗎\n759895\t775303\t前瞻建設政府用舉債的方式去搶了地方本來就應該做的事這不就是財化法應該要把該給地方的錢還給地方讓地方做他該做的事嗎前瞻建設做什麼鋪馬路修房子\n776388\t804565\t治水 蓋停車場 做觀光建設哪一件事情不是地方該做的事當然該做但是要把錢給地方做它本來就該做的事而不是把錢全部留在你中央由你中央來統籌讓你做什麼 做聖誕老公公你們最厲害的是什麼行政院最厲害的是把發給所有民眾的錢的最後存摺那一塊上面加一個行政院發這就是跟地方政府搶功勞嘛\n805939\t833724\t這不是搶功勞搶政績只想要讓中央讓地方變成看中央的臉色做事啊我常常說沒有一件事行政院可以單獨完成一定要立法院合作也沒有一件事中央可以單獨完成一定要立法院合作但是你們沒有要跟立法院合作最後我想問一下現在行政院要不要繼續擺爛115年的概算你們到底要怎麼編你的解決方案是什麼\n835011\t863658\t我們會尋求一個最合理的財政收支發動法的方式來做負議案的當天沒有辦法回答我們一百一十五年的預算怎麼編列這一點是非常可怕我們今天談的是負議案不是談一個行政院的版本所以一百一十五年的預算就要編了我們今天如果提出一個行政版本委員就會支持負議案嗎不可能嗎所以我認為如果你今天提出一個版本我們可能會支持啊如果今天提出一個版本我們為什麼可能會不支持呢\n865555\t882428\t副議案就是讓我們有重新談的機會我們的版本就在我的手上這個案子一發生之後 組計長第一時間告訴全世界我們所有的預算 每一個部會的預算都要捅殺28%這是從3753寫下來的這個還是我們最大的問題是 這個行政院不想說明 只想造謠\n889400\t901596\t最後一個問題委員你又用造謠兩個字這不應該從委員的嘴巴裡面講出來我看到的造謠不應該這麼說 公獎金不能發了國防預算受影響了育兒今天不能發這不是造謠嗎\n902810\t907695\t20年前的謝院長他說了一句話共生和解協商對話這些原則要一言一行去證明這個狀態的落實您當時是行政院秘書長請問你有什麼感想\n930523\t930947\t好 謝謝黃珊珊瑋\n","txt":"謝謝主席我請院長那請卓院長黃議員好院長好我想今天是財化法的復議案也是非常重要下午就要投票我想院長到立法院來當然希望能夠說服委員復議案的內容但是我想我進到立法院一年的時間這一年來\n行政院包括民進黨的立法院黨團對於才化法應該都不陌生我們在上個會期通過但是我們在第一個會期就已經提案而且院長上任520的時候我相信各黨團也都有跟你報告我們要把才化法列為優先法案是嗎你應該都知道吧我知道所以院長今天\n你們到這邊來財化法是從賴清德市長到賴清德院長還有蕭美琴立委以及柯建民總召在立法院的時候都提過要修正的最重要的法案之一但是我們看到執政黨在這場財化法的討論協商的過程裡面不溝通不解決\n我甚至發現我們是只會造謠撕裂台灣這是我非常非常難過的地方因為財化法的版本台灣民眾黨在四月份就已經提出來而且也請財政部去提出他們所謂的事權分配或者是他們的計算方式甚至是你們現在使用的公式我們都來幫你入法沒有人理我們台灣民眾黨的版本跟國民黨的版本不一樣民進黨\n寧可完全不支持不討論也不願意接受支持民眾黨的版本這點是我們在立法院最遺憾的事院長我想問你一下接下來你要怎麼辦\n兩點先跟委員報告過去財化法跟現在過去的中央跟地方的財政跟現在是不一樣101年地方財政你這些講的我們都聽過了我現在只問你今天以後你的下一步是什麼你的下一步是市縣還是公投很多我們的溝通方式\n有些委員是知道的我們曾經嘗試過溝通有的溝通是沒有溝通的你拒絕溝通的次數有些委員是清楚的\n院長那我就分享一下怎麼溝通協委員不敢跟我們溝通也是鐵的事實台北市政府每一個議員都有一位專門的聯絡人去了解他所有的意見第二個我身為副市長當總聯絡人我要知道每一個議員的意見第三個如果沒有辦法處理我是副市長我要親自帶隊去跟每一位委員溝通我在立法院這一年來\n尤其才化法大概只有部長來找找我\n主計長來找找我 我沒有見過行政院的高層包括秘書長 副秘書長 甚至院長來跟我們討論有關財化法的機構部長 主計長 當然就代表行政院 代表整個政府啊我覺得溝通的問題是我在選走預算的時候 我直接告訴你有民進黨的立法委員跑過來跟我們說拜託我們拿個預算要怎麼辦我說為什麼是委員來說明他說因為部會首長被下令不能來溝通有這回事嗎\n我們沒有下這個令所以是民進黨的委員騙我們了不是沒有下這個令說不能溝通我的意思是說溝通是重要的但是現在的行政院包括相關的黨團只會放話只會要挾這一點不是國家之福所以我想問你下一步你要做什麼事實就有一點出入了所以下一步呢 您的下一步是什麼\n您的下一步是釋憲還是要公投一項案跟財化法好像是不能公投的只要合法合憲的程序在復議案沒有辦法成立之後我們都會考量所以下一步還不知道\n希望等一下的這個表決對財化法方面王委員能夠跟過去一樣有所堅持我再跟您說明一下我們的版本非常的清楚我們把施行的日期都延到一年之後我們把所謂的水平分配由所謂的委員會來做相關的分配不會訂出相關這麼嚴格的公式但是你們不理我們\n也沒有人要理我們這才是問題明明可以好好討論的事情因為行政院的漠視所以不願意處理我們的版本我們8票投自己啊你們51票沒有投我們啊這個不要怪我只能怪你們如果你們51票投我們的話我們的版本是會通過的所以今天的問題是咎由自取\n這個最嚴重的是 財化法通過之後我們的行政院發言人第一時間出來說這樣子喔 114年的預算要從編馬上立刻下所有的人民 所有的立委所以部長 你們114年的預算有從編嗎沒有從編 而且我們沒有從編所以他是恐嚇人民 還是隨便亂說話已經送予大院審議院長 你也應該知道你的發言人說過這樣的話嘛 對不對\n從放話到要挾非常要不得另外一個我想問一下接下來115年的預算要怎麼編我們期待財化法能夠有更合理的討論在中央所以今天復議案不通過之後115年的預算你們編還是不編\n預算當然是要編 要如何編 要怎麼編我們要努力讓它發生到 還有新法編還是又要去釋憲然後用假處分來卡住所有的預算地方政府要怎麼編你要不要告訴我一下我們可以用你剛剛說的那兩個方式之外 還有其他方式什麼方式 也可以重新請大家提出一個新的版本你現在不告訴我們你的方式我們的國家要停擺嗎\n我們不是沒有溝通就是新法 法通過了就是要執行我們這裡很多的方案都是在12月20號以前要來談的12月20號以前要來那個禮拜立法院大院裡面的程序有可以談的時間空間嗎我們今天已經是附議案的投票前的詢問你還是沒有任何的方案只有一個方案就是我要去大罷免 是嗎我沒有這麼說 我以為你怎麼可以這樣\n我這樣看起來你們只有一個方案啊如果一個沒有辦法治國的榮譽大罷免是不是你的偏方我們的方案就在這裡因為20號以前就要談了這是沒有機會談你的方案是什麼我現在在尋答請你回答我你的方案是什麼你有忠責中信的版本嗎你有你們行政院的版本了嗎\n當然有拿出來啊 我們大家也許可以考慮啊那個階段我們是希望在立法院裡面今天有沒有 拿不拿出來讓我們看到你的版本 我們去討論一下也許會考慮啊所以 院長 到今天這個時刻沒有版本 是嗎有版本跟地方在談啊跟地方在談 不用跟立法院談\n跟要投你復议票的立法委员党团要跟地方谈到有一个共识之后我们形成一个所以现在的问题就是我们的行政院到復议这一天都还没有端出你们的所谓的院板来跟立法院的党团来说明地方沟通的状况跟委员说明我们在3月6号邀请专家学者还有地方政府来开会第一个就是说\n妳的3月6號是2025年的3月6號12月就通過了妳3月6號在開什麼會啊妳在演戲嗎在總預算裡面在審查的時候委員還有提案要求我們去年6月就叫妳提版本了整整8個月 院長妳上任的時候520到現在整整8個月到通過的時候整整8個月 件事情都沒做\n從我們要求你們6月19號要求你們通過歷史提案要求行政院提版本到12月整整6個月院長也應該很清楚部長更清楚最重要的是到今天復議案你還是沒有願板如果你今天有願板也許拿出來我們可以考慮\n但是沒有院版的情況下我們如何通過今天的服役案第二個如果只是拿過來要證明行政院又是一個悲情內閣我覺得沒有必要接下去要為你們的大罷免加柴火嗎所以院長你支持大罷免嗎大罷免是民間人民團體所提出的跟行政院的業務無關所以跟你沒關係所以你支持還是不支持呢\n我們是維護人民的各種參政權利我們不會去表態支持或不支持政治的立場那接下來的問題是現在接下去大罷免會是行政院到下鄉開講的內容之一嗎無關財化法的討論過程院長知道吧這個過程非常的清楚喔非常多次四月份我們就提案了內容財政部非常清楚一直到協商完成\n重點是行政院為什麼一直不願意談因為錢跟權太像了集錢集權是行政院最大的權利最嚴重的是我覺得就是剛剛你講的提了服役案你們是現在才召開遵循會議是不是演太大了\n我們不是現在才召開會議委員你這樣是誤會了2025年3月開會12月通過然後2025年3月開會請問在這中間有找過三個黨團來做協商嗎有跟台灣民眾黨有跟國民黨團來做協商說你們要提中間版本嗎當然有跟黨團提過跟誰提過啊好像只有找了 政委要找各黨團總召私下密會不是嗎\n什麼叫私下密會昨天黃國昌總召已經說了你們派政委馬永成要來私下密會不是嗎他可以這樣說他得罪的是他的朋友好所以結論就是現場我再說的是開大門走大路不需要做這件事立法院我覺得就很簡單就如同行政單位只要你願意我相信每個委員都想聽你們的東西我也很想知道院版我也很想知道你們接下來想要\n提出的折衷方案但是沒有折衷方案只希望大家起義來歸是不會成功的有機會讓我們談嗎接下來的事喔你們拒絕談判談的次數有多少我們從頭到尾沒有拒絕我黃珊珊財政部來過幾次了我的版本就長在那邊從頭到尾我就說這個版本請你們考慮\n從頭到尾我的立場都一樣所以也就是說我剛剛講的我們說了很清楚我們的時間壓在一年後我們的分配公式交給國園會沒有影響到你們的內容這個部分沒有談嗎\n但是垂直分配跟水平分配的事情財政部還有更精密的算法所以重點是你們連這兩條都不支持我們的版本才會產生今天的結果最後為什麼要這樣院長雖然潛在運算不是你任內的但是8400億是前任政府的但他的內容都是在搶地方的工作不是嗎\n前瞻建設政府用舉債的方式去搶了地方本來就應該做的事這不就是財化法應該要把該給地方的錢還給地方讓地方做他該做的事嗎前瞻建設做什麼鋪馬路修房子\n治水 蓋停車場 做觀光建設哪一件事情不是地方該做的事當然該做但是要把錢給地方做它本來就該做的事而不是把錢全部留在你中央由你中央來統籌讓你做什麼 做聖誕老公公你們最厲害的是什麼行政院最厲害的是把發給所有民眾的錢的最後存摺那一塊上面加一個行政院發這就是跟地方政府搶功勞嘛\n這不是搶功勞搶政績只想要讓中央讓地方變成看中央的臉色做事啊我常常說沒有一件事行政院可以單獨完成一定要立法院合作也沒有一件事中央可以單獨完成一定要立法院合作但是你們沒有要跟立法院合作最後我想問一下現在行政院要不要繼續擺爛115年的概算你們到底要怎麼編你的解決方案是什麼\n我們會尋求一個最合理的財政收支發動法的方式來做負議案的當天沒有辦法回答我們一百一十五年的預算怎麼編列這一點是非常可怕我們今天談的是負議案不是談一個行政院的版本所以一百一十五年的預算就要編了我們今天如果提出一個行政版本委員就會支持負議案嗎不可能嗎所以我認為如果你今天提出一個版本我們可能會支持啊如果今天提出一個版本我們為什麼可能會不支持呢\n副議案就是讓我們有重新談的機會我們的版本就在我的手上這個案子一發生之後 組計長第一時間告訴全世界我們所有的預算 每一個部會的預算都要捅殺28%這是從3753寫下來的這個還是我們最大的問題是 這個行政院不想說明 只想造謠\n最後一個問題委員你又用造謠兩個字這不應該從委員的嘴巴裡面講出來我看到的造謠不應該這麼說 公獎金不能發了國防預算受影響了育兒今天不能發這不是造謠嗎\n20年前的謝院長他說了一句話共生和解協商對話這些原則要一言一行去證明這個狀態的落實您當時是行政院秘書長請問你有什麼感想\n好 謝謝黃珊珊瑋\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.951 --> 00:08.573\n謝謝主席我請院長那請卓院長黃議員好院長好我想今天是財化法的復議案也是非常重要下午就要投票我想院長到立法院來當然希望能夠說服委員復議案的內容但是我想我進到立法院一年的時間這一年來\n\n00:35.461 --> 00:57.830\n行政院包括民進黨的立法院黨團對於才化法應該都不陌生我們在上個會期通過但是我們在第一個會期就已經提案而且院長上任520的時候我相信各黨團也都有跟你報告我們要把才化法列為優先法案是嗎你應該都知道吧我知道所以院長今天\n\n01:04.420 --> 01:28.877\n你們到這邊來財化法是從賴清德市長到賴清德院長還有蕭美琴立委以及柯建民總召在立法院的時候都提過要修正的最重要的法案之一但是我們看到執政黨在這場財化法的討論協商的過程裡面不溝通不解決\n\n01:30.930 --> 01:58.748\n我甚至發現我們是只會造謠撕裂台灣這是我非常非常難過的地方因為財化法的版本台灣民眾黨在四月份就已經提出來而且也請財政部去提出他們所謂的事權分配或者是他們的計算方式甚至是你們現在使用的公式我們都來幫你入法沒有人理我們台灣民眾黨的版本跟國民黨的版本不一樣民進黨\n\n02:01.918 --> 02:15.315\n寧可完全不支持不討論也不願意接受支持民眾黨的版本這點是我們在立法院最遺憾的事院長我想問你一下接下來你要怎麼辦\n\n02:19.093 --> 02:39.221\n兩點先跟委員報告過去財化法跟現在過去的中央跟地方的財政跟現在是不一樣101年地方財政你這些講的我們都聽過了我現在只問你今天以後你的下一步是什麼你的下一步是市縣還是公投很多我們的溝通方式\n\n02:40.546 --> 02:46.193\n有些委員是知道的我們曾經嘗試過溝通有的溝通是沒有溝通的你拒絕溝通的次數有些委員是清楚的\n\n02:58.027 --> 03:24.378\n院長那我就分享一下怎麼溝通協委員不敢跟我們溝通也是鐵的事實台北市政府每一個議員都有一位專門的聯絡人去了解他所有的意見第二個我身為副市長當總聯絡人我要知道每一個議員的意見第三個如果沒有辦法處理我是副市長我要親自帶隊去跟每一位委員溝通我在立法院這一年來\n\n03:25.253 --> 03:27.664\n尤其才化法大概只有部長來找找我\n\n03:28.663 --> 03:55.834\n主計長來找找我我沒有見過行政院的高層包括秘書長副秘書長甚至院長來跟我們討論有關財化法的機構部長主計長當然就代表行政院代表整個政府啊我覺得溝通的問題是我在選走預算的時候我直接告訴你有民進黨的立法委員跑過來跟我們說拜託我們拿個預算要怎麼辦我說為什麼是委員來說明他說因為部會首長被下令不能來溝通有這回事嗎\n\n03:56.823 --> 04:22.005\n我們沒有下這個令所以是民進黨的委員騙我們了不是沒有下這個令說不能溝通我的意思是說溝通是重要的但是現在的行政院包括相關的黨團只會放話只會要挾這一點不是國家之福所以我想問你下一步你要做什麼事實就有一點出入了所以下一步呢您的下一步是什麼\n\n04:22.981 --> 04:35.556\n您的下一步是釋憲還是要公投一項案跟財化法好像是不能公投的只要合法合憲的程序在復議案沒有辦法成立之後我們都會考量所以下一步還不知道\n\n04:37.086 --> 05:01.586\n希望等一下的這個表決對財化法方面王委員能夠跟過去一樣有所堅持我再跟您說明一下我們的版本非常的清楚我們把施行的日期都延到一年之後我們把所謂的水平分配由所謂的委員會來做相關的分配不會訂出相關這麼嚴格的公式但是你們不理我們\n\n05:02.347 --> 05:23.735\n也沒有人要理我們這才是問題明明可以好好討論的事情因為行政院的漠視所以不願意處理我們的版本我們8票投自己啊你們51票沒有投我們啊這個不要怪我只能怪你們如果你們51票投我們的話我們的版本是會通過的所以今天的問題是咎由自取\n\n05:25.107 --> 05:46.944\n這個最嚴重的是財化法通過之後我們的行政院發言人第一時間出來說這樣子喔114年的預算要從編馬上立刻下所有的人民所有的立委所以部長你們114年的預算有從編嗎沒有從編而且我們沒有從編所以他是恐嚇人民還是隨便亂說話已經送予大院審議院長你也應該知道你的發言人說過這樣的話嘛對不對\n\n05:53.865 --> 06:00.952\n從放話到要挾非常要不得另外一個我想問一下接下來115年的預算要怎麼編我們期待財化法能夠有更合理的討論在中央所以今天復議案不通過之後115年的預算你們編還是不編\n\n06:13.846 --> 06:40.244\n預算當然是要編要如何編要怎麼編我們要努力讓它發生到還有新法編還是又要去釋憲然後用假處分來卡住所有的預算地方政府要怎麼編你要不要告訴我一下我們可以用你剛剛說的那兩個方式之外還有其他方式什麼方式也可以重新請大家提出一個新的版本你現在不告訴我們你的方式我們的國家要停擺嗎\n\n06:42.042 --> 07:07.198\n我們不是沒有溝通就是新法法通過了就是要執行我們這裡很多的方案都是在12月20號以前要來談的12月20號以前要來那個禮拜立法院大院裡面的程序有可以談的時間空間嗎我們今天已經是附議案的投票前的詢問你還是沒有任何的方案只有一個方案就是我要去大罷免是嗎我沒有這麼說我以為你怎麼可以這樣\n\n07:12.119 --> 07:31.968\n我這樣看起來你們只有一個方案啊如果一個沒有辦法治國的榮譽大罷免是不是你的偏方我們的方案就在這裡因為20號以前就要談了這是沒有機會談你的方案是什麼我現在在尋答請你回答我你的方案是什麼你有忠責中信的版本嗎你有你們行政院的版本了嗎\n\n07:32.848 --> 07:54.318\n當然有拿出來啊我們大家也許可以考慮啊那個階段我們是希望在立法院裡面今天有沒有拿不拿出來讓我們看到你的版本我們去討論一下也許會考慮啊所以院長到今天這個時刻沒有版本是嗎有版本跟地方在談啊跟地方在談不用跟立法院談\n\n07:55.530 --> 08:20.229\n跟要投你復议票的立法委员党团要跟地方谈到有一个共识之后我们形成一个所以现在的问题就是我们的行政院到復议这一天都还没有端出你们的所谓的院板来跟立法院的党团来说明地方沟通的状况跟委员说明我们在3月6号邀请专家学者还有地方政府来开会第一个就是说\n\n08:20.609 --> 08:45.840\n妳的3月6號是2025年的3月6號12月就通過了妳3月6號在開什麼會啊妳在演戲嗎在總預算裡面在審查的時候委員還有提案要求我們去年6月就叫妳提版本了整整8個月院長妳上任的時候520到現在整整8個月到通過的時候整整8個月件事情都沒做\n\n08:46.380 --> 08:53.402\n從我們要求你們6月19號要求你們通過歷史提案要求行政院提版本到12月整整6個月院長也應該很清楚部長更清楚最重要的是到今天復議案你還是沒有願板如果你今天有願板也許拿出來我們可以考慮\n\n09:16.380 --> 09:43.662\n但是沒有院版的情況下我們如何通過今天的服役案第二個如果只是拿過來要證明行政院又是一個悲情內閣我覺得沒有必要接下去要為你們的大罷免加柴火嗎所以院長你支持大罷免嗎大罷免是民間人民團體所提出的跟行政院的業務無關所以跟你沒關係所以你支持還是不支持呢\n\n09:45.031 --> 10:14.132\n我們是維護人民的各種參政權利我們不會去表態支持或不支持政治的立場那接下來的問題是現在接下去大罷免會是行政院到下鄉開講的內容之一嗎無關財化法的討論過程院長知道吧這個過程非常的清楚喔非常多次四月份我們就提案了內容財政部非常清楚一直到協商完成\n\n10:14.878 --> 10:34.755\n重點是行政院為什麼一直不願意談因為錢跟權太像了集錢集權是行政院最大的權利最嚴重的是我覺得就是剛剛你講的提了服役案你們是現在才召開遵循會議是不是演太大了\n\n10:35.523 --> 11:03.030\n我們不是現在才召開會議委員你這樣是誤會了2025年3月開會12月通過然後2025年3月開會請問在這中間有找過三個黨團來做協商嗎有跟台灣民眾黨有跟國民黨團來做協商說你們要提中間版本嗎當然有跟黨團提過跟誰提過啊好像只有找了政委要找各黨團總召私下密會不是嗎\n\n11:04.775 --> 11:34.519\n什麼叫私下密會昨天黃國昌總召已經說了你們派政委馬永成要來私下密會不是嗎他可以這樣說他得罪的是他的朋友好所以結論就是現場我再說的是開大門走大路不需要做這件事立法院我覺得就很簡單就如同行政單位只要你願意我相信每個委員都想聽你們的東西我也很想知道院版我也很想知道你們接下來想要\n\n11:35.011 --> 11:54.616\n提出的折衷方案但是沒有折衷方案只希望大家起義來歸是不會成功的有機會讓我們談嗎接下來的事喔你們拒絕談判談的次數有多少我們從頭到尾沒有拒絕我黃珊珊財政部來過幾次了我的版本就長在那邊從頭到尾我就說這個版本請你們考慮\n\n11:56.432 --> 12:01.776\n從頭到尾我的立場都一樣所以也就是說我剛剛講的我們說了很清楚我們的時間壓在一年後我們的分配公式交給國園會沒有影響到你們的內容這個部分沒有談嗎\n\n12:16.158 --> 12:38.423\n但是垂直分配跟水平分配的事情財政部還有更精密的算法所以重點是你們連這兩條都不支持我們的版本才會產生今天的結果最後為什麼要這樣院長雖然潛在運算不是你任內的但是8400億是前任政府的但他的內容都是在搶地方的工作不是嗎\n\n12:39.895 --> 12:55.303\n前瞻建設政府用舉債的方式去搶了地方本來就應該做的事這不就是財化法應該要把該給地方的錢還給地方讓地方做他該做的事嗎前瞻建設做什麼鋪馬路修房子\n\n12:56.388 --> 13:24.565\n治水蓋停車場做觀光建設哪一件事情不是地方該做的事當然該做但是要把錢給地方做它本來就該做的事而不是把錢全部留在你中央由你中央來統籌讓你做什麼做聖誕老公公你們最厲害的是什麼行政院最厲害的是把發給所有民眾的錢的最後存摺那一塊上面加一個行政院發這就是跟地方政府搶功勞嘛\n\n13:25.939 --> 13:53.724\n這不是搶功勞搶政績只想要讓中央讓地方變成看中央的臉色做事啊我常常說沒有一件事行政院可以單獨完成一定要立法院合作也沒有一件事中央可以單獨完成一定要立法院合作但是你們沒有要跟立法院合作最後我想問一下現在行政院要不要繼續擺爛115年的概算你們到底要怎麼編你的解決方案是什麼\n\n13:55.011 --> 14:23.658\n我們會尋求一個最合理的財政收支發動法的方式來做負議案的當天沒有辦法回答我們一百一十五年的預算怎麼編列這一點是非常可怕我們今天談的是負議案不是談一個行政院的版本所以一百一十五年的預算就要編了我們今天如果提出一個行政版本委員就會支持負議案嗎不可能嗎所以我認為如果你今天提出一個版本我們可能會支持啊如果今天提出一個版本我們為什麼可能會不支持呢\n\n14:25.555 --> 14:42.428\n副議案就是讓我們有重新談的機會我們的版本就在我的手上這個案子一發生之後組計長第一時間告訴全世界我們所有的預算每一個部會的預算都要捅殺28%這是從3753寫下來的這個還是我們最大的問題是這個行政院不想說明只想造謠\n\n14:49.400 --> 15:01.596\n最後一個問題委員你又用造謠兩個字這不應該從委員的嘴巴裡面講出來我看到的造謠不應該這麼說公獎金不能發了國防預算受影響了育兒今天不能發這不是造謠嗎\n\n15:02.810 --> 15:07.695\n20年前的謝院長他說了一句話共生和解協商對話這些原則要一言一行去證明這個狀態的落實您當時是行政院秘書長請問你有什麼感想\n\n15:30.523 --> 15:30.947\n好謝謝黃珊珊瑋\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.951,"end":8.573,"text":"謝謝主席我請院長那請卓院長黃議員好院長好我想今天是財化法的復議案也是非常重要下午就要投票我想院長到立法院來當然希望能夠說服委員復議案的內容但是我想我進到立法院一年的時間這一年來"},{"start":35.461,"end":57.83,"text":"行政院包括民進黨的立法院黨團對於才化法應該都不陌生我們在上個會期通過但是我們在第一個會期就已經提案而且院長上任520的時候我相信各黨團也都有跟你報告我們要把才化法列為優先法案是嗎你應該都知道吧我知道所以院長今天"},{"start":64.42,"end":88.877,"text":"你們到這邊來財化法是從賴清德市長到賴清德院長還有蕭美琴立委以及柯建民總召在立法院的時候都提過要修正的最重要的法案之一但是我們看到執政黨在這場財化法的討論協商的過程裡面不溝通不解決"},{"start":90.93,"end":118.748,"text":"我甚至發現我們是只會造謠撕裂台灣這是我非常非常難過的地方因為財化法的版本台灣民眾黨在四月份就已經提出來而且也請財政部去提出他們所謂的事權分配或者是他們的計算方式甚至是你們現在使用的公式我們都來幫你入法沒有人理我們台灣民眾黨的版本跟國民黨的版本不一樣民進黨"},{"start":121.918,"end":135.315,"text":"寧可完全不支持不討論也不願意接受支持民眾黨的版本這點是我們在立法院最遺憾的事院長我想問你一下接下來你要怎麼辦"},{"start":139.093,"end":159.221,"text":"兩點先跟委員報告過去財化法跟現在過去的中央跟地方的財政跟現在是不一樣101年地方財政你這些講的我們都聽過了我現在只問你今天以後你的下一步是什麼你的下一步是市縣還是公投很多我們的溝通方式"},{"start":160.546,"end":166.193,"text":"有些委員是知道的我們曾經嘗試過溝通有的溝通是沒有溝通的你拒絕溝通的次數有些委員是清楚的"},{"start":178.027,"end":204.378,"text":"院長那我就分享一下怎麼溝通協委員不敢跟我們溝通也是鐵的事實台北市政府每一個議員都有一位專門的聯絡人去了解他所有的意見第二個我身為副市長當總聯絡人我要知道每一個議員的意見第三個如果沒有辦法處理我是副市長我要親自帶隊去跟每一位委員溝通我在立法院這一年來"},{"start":205.253,"end":207.664,"text":"尤其才化法大概只有部長來找找我"},{"start":208.663,"end":235.834,"text":"主計長來找找我 我沒有見過行政院的高層包括秘書長 副秘書長 甚至院長來跟我們討論有關財化法的機構部長 主計長 當然就代表行政院 代表整個政府啊我覺得溝通的問題是我在選走預算的時候 我直接告訴你有民進黨的立法委員跑過來跟我們說拜託我們拿個預算要怎麼辦我說為什麼是委員來說明他說因為部會首長被下令不能來溝通有這回事嗎"},{"start":236.823,"end":262.005,"text":"我們沒有下這個令所以是民進黨的委員騙我們了不是沒有下這個令說不能溝通我的意思是說溝通是重要的但是現在的行政院包括相關的黨團只會放話只會要挾這一點不是國家之福所以我想問你下一步你要做什麼事實就有一點出入了所以下一步呢 您的下一步是什麼"},{"start":262.981,"end":275.556,"text":"您的下一步是釋憲還是要公投一項案跟財化法好像是不能公投的只要合法合憲的程序在復議案沒有辦法成立之後我們都會考量所以下一步還不知道"},{"start":277.086,"end":301.586,"text":"希望等一下的這個表決對財化法方面王委員能夠跟過去一樣有所堅持我再跟您說明一下我們的版本非常的清楚我們把施行的日期都延到一年之後我們把所謂的水平分配由所謂的委員會來做相關的分配不會訂出相關這麼嚴格的公式但是你們不理我們"},{"start":302.347,"end":323.735,"text":"也沒有人要理我們這才是問題明明可以好好討論的事情因為行政院的漠視所以不願意處理我們的版本我們8票投自己啊你們51票沒有投我們啊這個不要怪我只能怪你們如果你們51票投我們的話我們的版本是會通過的所以今天的問題是咎由自取"},{"start":325.107,"end":346.944,"text":"這個最嚴重的是 財化法通過之後我們的行政院發言人第一時間出來說這樣子喔 114年的預算要從編馬上立刻下所有的人民 所有的立委所以部長 你們114年的預算有從編嗎沒有從編 而且我們沒有從編所以他是恐嚇人民 還是隨便亂說話已經送予大院審議院長 你也應該知道你的發言人說過這樣的話嘛 對不對"},{"start":353.865,"end":360.952,"text":"從放話到要挾非常要不得另外一個我想問一下接下來115年的預算要怎麼編我們期待財化法能夠有更合理的討論在中央所以今天復議案不通過之後115年的預算你們編還是不編"},{"start":373.846,"end":400.244,"text":"預算當然是要編 要如何編 要怎麼編我們要努力讓它發生到 還有新法編還是又要去釋憲然後用假處分來卡住所有的預算地方政府要怎麼編你要不要告訴我一下我們可以用你剛剛說的那兩個方式之外 還有其他方式什麼方式 也可以重新請大家提出一個新的版本你現在不告訴我們你的方式我們的國家要停擺嗎"},{"start":402.042,"end":427.198,"text":"我們不是沒有溝通就是新法 法通過了就是要執行我們這裡很多的方案都是在12月20號以前要來談的12月20號以前要來那個禮拜立法院大院裡面的程序有可以談的時間空間嗎我們今天已經是附議案的投票前的詢問你還是沒有任何的方案只有一個方案就是我要去大罷免 是嗎我沒有這麼說 我以為你怎麼可以這樣"},{"start":432.119,"end":451.968,"text":"我這樣看起來你們只有一個方案啊如果一個沒有辦法治國的榮譽大罷免是不是你的偏方我們的方案就在這裡因為20號以前就要談了這是沒有機會談你的方案是什麼我現在在尋答請你回答我你的方案是什麼你有忠責中信的版本嗎你有你們行政院的版本了嗎"},{"start":452.848,"end":474.318,"text":"當然有拿出來啊 我們大家也許可以考慮啊那個階段我們是希望在立法院裡面今天有沒有 拿不拿出來讓我們看到你的版本 我們去討論一下也許會考慮啊所以 院長 到今天這個時刻沒有版本 是嗎有版本跟地方在談啊跟地方在談 不用跟立法院談"},{"start":475.53,"end":500.229,"text":"跟要投你復议票的立法委员党团要跟地方谈到有一个共识之后我们形成一个所以现在的问题就是我们的行政院到復议这一天都还没有端出你们的所谓的院板来跟立法院的党团来说明地方沟通的状况跟委员说明我们在3月6号邀请专家学者还有地方政府来开会第一个就是说"},{"start":500.609,"end":525.84,"text":"妳的3月6號是2025年的3月6號12月就通過了妳3月6號在開什麼會啊妳在演戲嗎在總預算裡面在審查的時候委員還有提案要求我們去年6月就叫妳提版本了整整8個月 院長妳上任的時候520到現在整整8個月到通過的時候整整8個月 件事情都沒做"},{"start":526.38,"end":533.402,"text":"從我們要求你們6月19號要求你們通過歷史提案要求行政院提版本到12月整整6個月院長也應該很清楚部長更清楚最重要的是到今天復議案你還是沒有願板如果你今天有願板也許拿出來我們可以考慮"},{"start":556.38,"end":583.662,"text":"但是沒有院版的情況下我們如何通過今天的服役案第二個如果只是拿過來要證明行政院又是一個悲情內閣我覺得沒有必要接下去要為你們的大罷免加柴火嗎所以院長你支持大罷免嗎大罷免是民間人民團體所提出的跟行政院的業務無關所以跟你沒關係所以你支持還是不支持呢"},{"start":585.031,"end":614.132,"text":"我們是維護人民的各種參政權利我們不會去表態支持或不支持政治的立場那接下來的問題是現在接下去大罷免會是行政院到下鄉開講的內容之一嗎無關財化法的討論過程院長知道吧這個過程非常的清楚喔非常多次四月份我們就提案了內容財政部非常清楚一直到協商完成"},{"start":614.878,"end":634.755,"text":"重點是行政院為什麼一直不願意談因為錢跟權太像了集錢集權是行政院最大的權利最嚴重的是我覺得就是剛剛你講的提了服役案你們是現在才召開遵循會議是不是演太大了"},{"start":635.523,"end":663.03,"text":"我們不是現在才召開會議委員你這樣是誤會了2025年3月開會12月通過然後2025年3月開會請問在這中間有找過三個黨團來做協商嗎有跟台灣民眾黨有跟國民黨團來做協商說你們要提中間版本嗎當然有跟黨團提過跟誰提過啊好像只有找了 政委要找各黨團總召私下密會不是嗎"},{"start":664.775,"end":694.519,"text":"什麼叫私下密會昨天黃國昌總召已經說了你們派政委馬永成要來私下密會不是嗎他可以這樣說他得罪的是他的朋友好所以結論就是現場我再說的是開大門走大路不需要做這件事立法院我覺得就很簡單就如同行政單位只要你願意我相信每個委員都想聽你們的東西我也很想知道院版我也很想知道你們接下來想要"},{"start":695.011,"end":714.616,"text":"提出的折衷方案但是沒有折衷方案只希望大家起義來歸是不會成功的有機會讓我們談嗎接下來的事喔你們拒絕談判談的次數有多少我們從頭到尾沒有拒絕我黃珊珊財政部來過幾次了我的版本就長在那邊從頭到尾我就說這個版本請你們考慮"},{"start":716.432,"end":721.776,"text":"從頭到尾我的立場都一樣所以也就是說我剛剛講的我們說了很清楚我們的時間壓在一年後我們的分配公式交給國園會沒有影響到你們的內容這個部分沒有談嗎"},{"start":736.158,"end":758.423,"text":"但是垂直分配跟水平分配的事情財政部還有更精密的算法所以重點是你們連這兩條都不支持我們的版本才會產生今天的結果最後為什麼要這樣院長雖然潛在運算不是你任內的但是8400億是前任政府的但他的內容都是在搶地方的工作不是嗎"},{"start":759.895,"end":775.303,"text":"前瞻建設政府用舉債的方式去搶了地方本來就應該做的事這不就是財化法應該要把該給地方的錢還給地方讓地方做他該做的事嗎前瞻建設做什麼鋪馬路修房子"},{"start":776.388,"end":804.565,"text":"治水 蓋停車場 做觀光建設哪一件事情不是地方該做的事當然該做但是要把錢給地方做它本來就該做的事而不是把錢全部留在你中央由你中央來統籌讓你做什麼 做聖誕老公公你們最厲害的是什麼行政院最厲害的是把發給所有民眾的錢的最後存摺那一塊上面加一個行政院發這就是跟地方政府搶功勞嘛"},{"start":805.939,"end":833.724,"text":"這不是搶功勞搶政績只想要讓中央讓地方變成看中央的臉色做事啊我常常說沒有一件事行政院可以單獨完成一定要立法院合作也沒有一件事中央可以單獨完成一定要立法院合作但是你們沒有要跟立法院合作最後我想問一下現在行政院要不要繼續擺爛115年的概算你們到底要怎麼編你的解決方案是什麼"},{"start":835.011,"end":863.658,"text":"我們會尋求一個最合理的財政收支發動法的方式來做負議案的當天沒有辦法回答我們一百一十五年的預算怎麼編列這一點是非常可怕我們今天談的是負議案不是談一個行政院的版本所以一百一十五年的預算就要編了我們今天如果提出一個行政版本委員就會支持負議案嗎不可能嗎所以我認為如果你今天提出一個版本我們可能會支持啊如果今天提出一個版本我們為什麼可能會不支持呢"},{"start":865.555,"end":882.428,"text":"副議案就是讓我們有重新談的機會我們的版本就在我的手上這個案子一發生之後 組計長第一時間告訴全世界我們所有的預算 每一個部會的預算都要捅殺28%這是從3753寫下來的這個還是我們最大的問題是 這個行政院不想說明 只想造謠"},{"start":889.4,"end":901.596,"text":"最後一個問題委員你又用造謠兩個字這不應該從委員的嘴巴裡面講出來我看到的造謠不應該這麼說 公獎金不能發了國防預算受影響了育兒今天不能發這不是造謠嗎"},{"start":902.81,"end":907.695,"text":"20年前的謝院長他說了一句話共生和解協商對話這些原則要一言一行去證明這個狀態的落實您當時是行政院秘書長請問你有什麼感想"},{"start":930.523,"end":930.947,"text":"好 謝謝黃珊珊瑋"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":332,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（10時18分）謝謝主席，我請院長。"],["主席：再請卓院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長好。今天進行的是財劃法的覆議案，也是非常重要的，下午就要投票了。院長到立法院來，當然希望能夠就覆議案的內容說服委員，但是我進到立法院一年的時間，這一年來，行政院和民進黨的立法院黨團對財劃法應該都不陌生。財劃法在上個會期通過，但是我們在第一個會期就已經提案，而且院長上任、520的時候，我相信各黨團也都有跟你報告我們要把財劃法列為優先法案，是嗎？你應該都知道吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以院長，今天你們到這邊來，財劃法是從賴清德市長到賴清德院長，還有蕭美琴立委以及柯建銘總召在立法院的時候都提過要修正的最重要法案之一，但是我們看到執政黨在這場財劃法的討論、協商過程裡面，不溝通、不解決，我甚至發現是只會造謠、撕裂臺灣，這是我非常、非常難過的地方，因為財劃法的版本，台灣民眾黨在4月份就已經提出來，而且也請財政部去提出他們所謂的事權分配或者是計算方式，甚至是現在使用的公式，我們都來幫你入法，沒有人理我們。台灣民眾黨的版本跟國民黨的版本不一樣，民進黨寧可完全不支持、不討論，也不願意接受、支持民眾黨的版本，這點是我們在立法院最遺憾的事。院長，我想問你一下，接下來你要怎麼辦？覆議不成功，你的下一步是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：我兩點先跟委員報告，過去財劃法，過去中央跟地方的財政跟現在是不一樣的，101年地方財政短絀……"],["黃委員珊珊：你講的這些，我們都聽過了，我現在只問你，今天以後你的下一步是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：第二點，我說……"],["黃委員珊珊：你的下一步是釋憲，還是公投？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，很多我們的溝通方式，有些委員是知道的……"],["黃委員珊珊：我想問的是今天下午以後……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們曾經嘗試過溝通，有的溝通是沒有溝通的……"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，你的溝通非常、非常的差，我沒有見過這麼差的行政團隊溝通，我來自地方政府，我當臺北市的副市長……"],["卓院長榮泰：我被拒絕溝通的次數，有些委員是清楚的……"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，那我就分享一下怎麼溝通。"],["卓院長榮泰：有些委員不敢跟我們溝通，也是鐵的事實。"],["黃委員珊珊：臺北市政府每一個議員都有一位專門的聯絡人去了解他所有的意見；第二個，我身為副市長，當然當總聯絡人，我要知道每個議員的意見；第三個，如果沒有辦法處理，我是副市長，我要親自帶隊去跟每一位議員溝通。我在立法院這一年來，尤其財劃法，大概只有部長來找找我、主計長來找找我，我沒有見過行政院的高層，包括秘書長、副秘書長，甚至院長來跟我們討論有關財劃法的計畫。"],["卓院長榮泰：部長、主計長當然就代表行政院、代表整個政府啊！"],["黃委員珊珊：所以第二個，我覺得溝通的問題是，我在總預算的時候，我直接告訴你，有民進黨的立法委員跑過來跟我們說，拜託我們哪個預算要怎麼辦，我說為什麼是委員來說明？他說因為部會首長被下令不能來溝通，有這回事嗎？院長？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們沒有下這個令。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以是民進黨的委員騙我們了？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，沒有下這個令說不能溝通，當然是要溝通。"],["黃委員珊珊：我的意思是溝通是重要的。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是現在的行政院包括相關的黨團，只會放話、只會要脅，這一點不是國家之福。所以我想問你，下一步你要做什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員你講的跟事實就有一點出入了，絕對不是這樣，您清楚的。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以下一步呢？你的下一步是什麼？你的下一步是釋憲，還是要公投？預算案跟財劃法好像是不能公投的。"],["卓院長榮泰：只要合法合憲的程序，在覆議案沒有辦法成立之後，我們都會考量。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以下一步還不知道？今天以後不知道？"],["卓院長榮泰：希望等一下的表決，對財劃法方面，黃委員能夠跟過去一樣有所堅持。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，我再跟您說明一下，我們的版本非常的清楚，我們把施行的日期都延到一年之後，我們把水平分配由所謂的委員會來做相關的分配，不會訂出相關這麼嚴格的公式，但是你們不理我們，也沒有人要理我們，這才是問題，明明可以好好討論的事情，因為行政院的漠視所別於處理……"],["卓院長榮泰：那麼為什麼表決的時候沒有照委員的版本去表決？"],["黃委員珊珊：我們的版本，我們8票投自己，你們51票沒有投我們，這個不要怪別人，只能怪你們。"],["卓院長榮泰：怎麼沒有照委員的版本去投票呢？很多的版本……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果你們51票投我們的話，我們的版本是會通過的，所以今天的問題是咎由自取。這個最嚴重的是，財劃法通過之後，我們的行政院發言人第一時間出來說這樣子，114年的預算要重編。馬上、立刻嚇所有的人民、所有的立委。部長，所以你們114年的預算有重編嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員說明，沒有重編，而且我們也是……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以他是恐嚇人民，還是隨便亂說話？"],["莊部長翠雲：那個時候總預算已經送去大院審議，沒有重編……"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，你也應該知道你的發言人說過這樣的話嘛，對不對？從放話到要脅，非常要不得。另外一個，我想問一下，接下來115年的預算要怎麼編？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們期待財劃法能夠有更合理的討論，在中央，這幾年……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以今天覆議案不通過之後，115年的預算，你們編，還是不編？"],["卓院長榮泰：預算當然是要編，要如何編？"],["黃委員珊珊：要怎麼編？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們要努力讓大家用正當……"],["黃委員珊珊：要用新法編，還是又要去釋憲，然後用假處分來卡住所有的預算？地方政府要怎麼編？你要不要告訴我一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們可以用你剛剛說的那兩個方式之外……"],["黃委員珊珊：你不知道要怎麼編？"],["卓院長榮泰：還有其他方式。"],["黃委員珊珊：什麼方式？"],["卓院長榮泰：也可以重新提出一個新的版本……"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，你現在在這邊備詢，但你不告訴我們你的方式，難道我們的國家要停擺嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我們不是沒有溝通。"],["黃委員珊珊：新法就是新法，法通過了就是要執行。"],["卓院長榮泰：我再說一次，我們這裡很多方案都是在12月20號以前要來談的……"],["黃委員珊珊：12月20號以前要來談？"],["卓院長榮泰：但那個禮拜，立法院、大院的程序，有可以談的時間、空間嗎？"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，今天已經是覆議案投票前的詢答，你還是沒有任何的方案……"],["卓院長榮泰：我有。"],["黃委員珊珊：你只有一個方案就是「我要去大罷免」，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有這麼說，委員你怎麼可以這樣誤解我的話呢！"],["黃委員珊珊：我這樣看起來你們就只有一個方案，如果……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，我的方案在這裡，提了好幾次了，你只想聽你的答案，你不想要聽我的說明。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果一個沒有辦法治國的庸醫，大罷免是不是你的偏方？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的方案就在這裡，12月20號以前就要談了，只是沒有機會談。"],["黃委員珊珊：你的方案是什麼？我現在在詢答，請你回答我，你的方案是什麼？你有折衷性的版本嗎？你有行政院的版本了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然有。"],["黃委員珊珊：拿出來啊！我們大家也許可以考慮啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：因為那個階段我們是希望在……"],["黃委員珊珊：現在有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：立法院裡面……"],["黃委員珊珊：今天有沒有？拿不拿出來？讓我們看你的版本，我們討論一下，也許會考慮啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：財政部前幾天不是跟地方在談嗎？"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，到今天這個時刻沒有版本，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：有版本，跟地方在談啊！"],["黃委員珊珊：跟地方在談，不用跟立法院談？不用跟要投你覆議票的立法委員、黨團談？"],["卓院長榮泰：要跟地方談到有一個共識之後，我們形成一個最終……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以現在的問題是，行政院到覆議的這一天，都還沒有端出你們所謂的院版來跟立法院各黨團說明？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明一下，跟地方溝通的狀況。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員說明，我們在3月6號邀集專家、學者，還有地方政府來開會，基本上，第一個就是……"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，你的3月6號是2025年的3月6號，12月就通過了，你3月6號在開什麼會啊！你在演戲嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，總預算審查的時候，委員還有提案要求我們財政部再來檢討……"],["黃委員珊珊：我們去年6月就叫你們提版本了，整整八個月……"],["莊部長翠雲：今年的總預算還有提案……"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，你520上任到現在整整八個月，到法案通過整整八個月，一件事情都沒做，一天到晚推說……"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員說明，我們持續都在研商，持續都在研商，我們認為不應該倉促修法……"],["黃委員珊珊：你要搶我的時間嗎？報告主席，這樣我沒有辦法詢答。"],["主席：麻煩官員不要搶答。"],["黃委員珊珊：從我們6月19號通過臨時提案要求行政院提版本，到12月整整六個月，院長應該也很清楚，部長更清楚，最重要的是到今天要覆議了，你還是沒有院版；如果今天有院版拿出來，也許我們可以考慮，但是沒有院版的情況下，我們如何通過你今天的覆議案？第二個，如果只是拿過來，要證明行政院又是一個悲情內閣，我覺得沒有必要，接下去要為你們的大罷免加柴火嗎？院長，你支持大罷免嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：大罷免是民間人民團體所提出的，跟行政院的業務無關。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以跟你沒關係，那你支持還是不支持呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是維護人民的各種參政權利，我們不會表態支持或不支持，這是政治的立場。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你沒有意見？好。接下來的問題是，接下來大罷免會是行政院下鄉開講的內容之一嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：無關。"],["黃委員珊珊：財劃法的討論過程，院長知道吧？這個過程非常清楚，也非常多次，4月份我們就提案了，內容財政部非常清楚，一直到協商完成，重點是行政院為什麼一直不願意談？因為錢跟權太香了，集錢、集權是行政院最大的權力，我覺得最嚴重的是剛剛你講的，提了覆議案，你們到現在才召開徵詢會議，是不是演太大了？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們不是現在才召開會議，委員你這樣是誤會了大家及首長的努力。"],["黃委員珊珊：12月通過，然後2025年3月才開會，請問在這中間有找過三個黨團來協商嗎？有跟台灣民眾黨團、國民黨團協商說你們要提中間版本嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然有跟黨團提過。"],["黃委員珊珊：跟誰提過？好像只有政委在找各黨團總召私下密會，不是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：什麼叫私下密會？"],["黃委員珊珊：昨天黃國昌總召已經說了，你們派政委馬永成要來私下密會，不是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：他可以這樣說，他得罪的是他的朋友，讓他的朋友認為他不守信用而已。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，我要說的是：開大門、走大路，不需要做這件事，我覺得立法院就很簡單，就如同行政單位，只要你願意，我相信每個委員都想聽你們的東西，我也很想知道院版及接下來想要提出的折衷方案，但是沒有折衷方案，只希望大家起義來歸是不會成功的。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，有機會讓我們談嗎？"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來的事……"],["卓院長榮泰：你們拒絕談的次數有多少？"],["黃委員珊珊：我們從頭到尾沒有拒絕，我黃珊珊……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有嗎？"],["黃委員珊珊：財政部來過幾次了，我的版本就長在那邊，從頭到尾我都說這個版本請你們考慮，從頭到尾我的立場都一樣……"],["卓院長榮泰：財政部有我們的想法……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以也就是說……"],["卓院長榮泰：政黨黨團也有黨團的想法，當中有機會溝通嗎？"],["黃委員珊珊：我剛剛有講，我們說了很清楚，我們的時間押在一年後，我們的分配公式交給委員會……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是合理的。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有影響到你們的內容，這個部分沒有談嗎？談過很多次啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：但是垂直分配跟水平分配的事情，財政部還有更精密的算法。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以重點是你們連這兩條都不支持我們的版本，才會產生今天的結果。","最後，為什麼要這樣？院長，雖然前瞻預算不是你任內的，但是8,400億是前任政府的，但它的內容都是在搶地方的工作，不是嗎？前瞻建設政府用舉債的方式去搶了地方本來就應該做的事，這不就是財劃法應該要把該給地方的錢，還給地方讓地方做它該做的事嗎？前瞻建設做什麼？鋪馬路、修房子、治水、蓋停車場、做觀光建設，哪一件事情不是地方該做的事？"],["卓院長榮泰：不應該做嗎？"],["黃委員珊珊：當然該做。"],["卓院長榮泰：該做啊！"],["黃委員珊珊：但是要把錢給地方做它本來就該做的事，而不是把錢全部留在你中央，由你中央來統籌，讓你做什麼？做聖誕老公公。你們最厲害的是什麼？行政院最厲害的是把發給所有民眾的錢，最後在存摺那一塊上面加一個「行政院發」，這就是跟地方政府搶功勞，這不是……"],["卓院長榮泰：金融單位需要這樣子。"],["黃委員珊珊：搶功勞、搶政績，只想讓地方變成看中央的臉色做事。"],["卓院長榮泰：我常說沒有一件事行政院可以單獨完成，一定要立法院合作，也沒有一件中央可以單獨完成，一定要靠地方執行。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，一定要立法院合作，但是你們沒有要跟立法院合作。","最後，我想問一下，現在行政院要不要繼續擺爛115年的概算，你們到底要怎麼編？你的解決方案是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會尋求一個最……"],["黃委員珊珊：今天聽得到答案嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：合理的財政收支劃分法的方式來做。"],["黃委員珊珊：覆議案的當天沒有辦法回答我們115年的預算怎麼編列，這一點非常的可怕……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們今天談的是覆議案，不是談一個行政院的版本。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以115年的預算就要編了？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們今天如果提出一個行政院的版本，委員就會支持覆議案嗎？不可能嘛！我們今天談的是覆議案。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我認為……"],["卓院長榮泰：覆議案之後，我們就可以好好地來談內容。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果你今天提出了版本，我們可能會支持啊！如果今天提出你的版本，我們為什麼會可能不支持呢？你沒有方案就是一種無賴的行為啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：覆議案就是讓我們有重新談的機會，我們的版本就在我的手上。"],["黃委員珊珊：再者，這個案子一發生之後，主計長第一時間告訴全世界，我們所有的預算，每一個部會的預算都要統刪28%，威脅、要脅……"],["卓院長榮泰：這是從3753算下來的。"],["黃委員珊珊：這才是我們最大的問題，這個行政院不想說明，只想造謠。最後一個問題……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你又用「造謠」兩個字，這不應該從委員的嘴巴裡面講出來，其他委員或許可以這麼說，你不應該這麼說。"],["黃委員珊珊：我看到的造謠，國光獎金不能發了、國防預算受影響了、育兒津貼不能發，這不是造謠嗎？最後，院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：難道不是拿走15%的稅款，讓中央政府沒有辦法做事嗎？"],["黃委員珊珊：20年前的謝院長他說了一句話，共生、和解、協商、對話這些原則，要一言一行去證明這個狀態的落實，您當時是行政院秘書長，請問你有什麼感想？"],["卓院長榮泰：我現在也說和解共生啊！"],["黃委員珊珊：你如果是這樣的方式，沒有辦法和解共生。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為你們拒絕談啊！"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員詢問，謝謝卓院長的備詢跟各部會首長，謝謝。","接下來我們請陳培瑜委員，請詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":344,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","傅崐萁","許宇甄","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","鍾佳濱","翁曉玲","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","林俊憲","王鴻薇","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","馬文君","陳亭妃","林思銘","賴瑞隆"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2025-03-12"],"gazette_id":"1142501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142501_00011","1142501_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第2次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"「財政收支劃分法」第八條、第十六條之一及第三十條條文覆議案","agenda_id":"1142501_00020"}}}