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那為什麼多因為我們有2800億的新增項目都散佈在各個部會如果這個部會因為他的新增項目多了一些預算所以他比去年多難道不應該嗎難道所有的部會都要下降嗎所以這個是一個非常取巧的質詢的方式讓\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 153.427, \"end\": 153.727, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 153.727, \"end\": 153.847, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 153.847, \"end\": 153.987, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 153.987, \"end\": 154.127, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 154.127, \"end\": 154.408, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 154.408, \"end\": 154.508, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 154.508, \"end\": 154.568, \"score\": 0.663}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 154.568, \"end\": 154.708, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 154.708, \"end\": 154.928, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 154.928, \"end\": 155.148, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 155.148, \"end\": 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\"那部分它的發展比較緩慢的地方它正需要中央來給予更多的一個財政資源的時候反而變成沒有資源來協助發展比較慢的地方政府可以獲得中央的一個財政資源相對的發展比較快的它的稅收豐富的在這一次的財化法的一個水平分配的公式上它卻能夠分配更多的財政資源這個就是剛剛院長所說的造成財政資源\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 832.759, \"end\": 832.939, \"score\": 0.761}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 832.939, \"end\": 833.199, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 833.199, \"end\": 834.08, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 834.08, \"end\": 834.2, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 834.2, \"end\": 834.54, \"score\": 0.771}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"展\", \"start\": 834.54, \"end\": 834.74, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 834.74, \"end\": 835.16, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"緩\"}, {\"word\": \"慢\", \"start\": 835.16, \"end\": 835.34, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 835.34, \"end\": 835.361, \"score\": 0.047}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 835.361, \"end\": 835.461, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 835.461, \"end\": 835.581, 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\"財\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 854.812, \"end\": 855.112, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"源\", \"start\": 855.112, \"end\": 855.672, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 855.672, \"end\": 855.832, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 855.832, \"end\": 856.172, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 856.172, \"end\": 856.553, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 856.553, \"end\": 856.873, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 856.873, \"end\": 857.193, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"造\", \"start\": 857.193, \"end\": 857.433, \"score\": 0.754}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 857.433, \"end\": 857.533, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 857.533, \"end\": 857.553, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"源\", \"start\": 857.553, \"end\": 857.573, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 858.854, \"end\": 882.806, \"text\": \"整個一個調製財政營需的財化法的立法目的以及均衡地方的發展完全失去了這樣的一個立法的意志這一次的修法確實有這樣很大的問題部長我用白話講給一般的鄉親聽我可以說原本就已經有城鄉差距文化資源不足的地方可能會因為這一次財化法修法之後顯得更加的困難擴大城鄉差距我可以下這樣的結論嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 858.854, \"end\": 859.274, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 859.274, \"end\": 860.775, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"製\"}, {\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 860.775, \"end\": 861.295, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"營\"}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 861.295, \"end\": 861.535, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 861.535, \"end\": 862.156, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 862.156, \"end\": 862.356, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 862.356, \"end\": 862.496, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 862.496, \"end\": 862.596, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 862.596, \"end\": 862.776, 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0.964}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 920.02, \"end\": 920.16, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 920.16, \"end\": 920.32, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"名\", \"start\": 920.32, \"end\": 920.521, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 920.521, \"end\": 920.601, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"良\", \"start\": 920.601, \"end\": 921.061, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"聲\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 921.061, \"end\": 921.161, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 921.161, \"end\": 921.361, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 921.361, \"end\": 921.501, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"拜\", \"start\": 921.501, \"end\": 921.782, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"託\"}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 921.782, \"end\": 922.502, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"拜\", \"start\": 922.502, \"end\": 922.943, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"託\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 922.943, \"end\": 923.103, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 923.103, \"end\": 923.243, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 923.243, \"end\": 923.383, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 923.383, \"end\": 923.904, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 923.904, \"end\": 924.224, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"首\", \"start\": 924.224, \"end\": 924.804, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 924.804, \"end\": 925.005, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 925.005, \"end\": 925.125, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 925.125, \"end\": 925.265, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 925.265, \"end\": 925.425, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 925.425, \"end\": 925.565, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 925.565, \"end\": 925.966, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 925.966, \"end\": 926.206, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 926.206, \"end\": 926.226, \"score\": 0.26}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 926.226, \"end\": 926.346, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"培\", \"start\": 926.346, \"end\": 926.526, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"宇\", \"start\": 926.526, \"end\": 926.906, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 926.906, \"end\": 927.047, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 927.047, \"end\": 927.067, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:12,310 --> 00:00:16,172\n好謝謝韓院長那有請行政院卓院長謝謝麻煩再請卓院長陳委員好好院長早安喔我們先來看第一張投影片喔院長我對於昨天這個畫面感到非常非常非常的遺憾喔遺憾的原因是我們的所有的部會首長被叫到您現在所在的位置的後方但是呢\n\n2\n00:00:40,325 --> 00:00:57,363\n質詢他們的婦婚期總召他並沒有給這些部長、首長好好的說明到底預算增加的原因到底是什麼他只談數字他不談實質內容就像我們小的時候如果面對考試分數考得不夠好如果爸媽媽只問我們為什麼考不好\n\n3\n00:00:59,165 --> 00:01:19,118\n不過我們原因就處罰我們一頓我認為我昨天看到的是像這樣子的畫面我可不可以拜託院長花一些時間讓我們知道尤其是我自己喔不管是之前在教育文化委員會兩年或是接下來要到司法法治委員會都會有非常多的議題跟兒少有關所以我真的想要拜託院長可不可以花一點時間讓我們知道\n\n4\n00:01:21,420 --> 00:01:37,260\n請問在相關的這些預算的亂象之後到底我們會發生什麼樣的事情或者是部會增加這些預算到底是實質上是為了哪些事情謝謝院長好謝謝委員雖然在立法院裡面這種詢答的過程沒有禁止\n\n5\n00:01:39,326 --> 00:02:07,747\n這裡很多的官員排排站讓一位委員在那邊質詢沒有禁止但是好幾次我都很感謝韓院長能夠讓官員不要後面排很多的官員但昨天確實發生了數次這樣的狀況而且在質詢的內容是非常取巧的只問官員說你有沒有增加部會有沒有增加預算比去年多還是少當我們首長說多那這個詢答就結束了\n\n6\n00:02:08,632 --> 00:02:31,666\n應該要問為什麼會多多在哪裡我用同樣的方式如果詢問委員立法院今年的預算有沒有比去年多也是多啊預算書上都多了1.11億啊多了1.11億啊但是多在哪裡就要去看他多在哪裡多的有沒有道理他就多在國會交流事務廣告這一項都多了2500萬\n\n7\n00:02:33,427 --> 00:02:58,403\n那這個有沒有意義如果有意義那個多是有意義的如果昨天的質詢應該是說你這個部會的預算有沒有比去年多有那為什麼多因為我們有2800億的新增項目都散佈在各個部會如果這個部會因為他的新增項目多了一些預算所以他比去年多難道不應該嗎難道所有的部會都要下降嗎所以這個是一個非常取巧的質詢的方式讓\n\n8\n00:02:59,844 --> 00:03:22,493\n首長沒有辦法充分的說明而且更嚴重的是這些被刪減凍結的預算我們一再強調它都是集中在特定機關特定的項目當中把一個機關裡面的宴會全部刪掉把它凍結百分之五十百分之六十百分之八十的這個出國旅費就好比一部車子你換了一部比較大的車子\n\n9\n00:03:23,001 --> 00:03:45,694\n但是立法院不給你油錢或是把你扣掉一個輪子這個車子再大再好還是不能開所以我們就是在這個情況底下讓整個政府動彈不得同時不能留用的這件事情我們都曾經記得蔣經國前院長在這裡買醋的錢不能買醬油買醬油的錢不能買醋他今天要我們買醋買醬油的錢都拿去買水嗎\n\n10\n00:03:47,023 --> 00:04:09,429\n所以不能留用未來在追加預算的情況底下他會造成很大的這個時間上以及執行提出的不可能所以昨天我是很遺憾用這種取巧的問答方式讓問題提出來答案沒有辦法讓首長充分說明而且針對問題的重點讓行政院真的無法動彈的理由是什麼\n\n11\n00:04:10,319 --> 00:04:19,826\n然後又礙於所謂追加預算法規沒有辦法做的事情要我們未來就尋找這個來做就你來拜託我就可以做的意思這絕對不是常態\n\n12\n00:04:20,913 --> 00:04:50,212\n好謝謝院長的說明不過因為我們今天時間有限院長剛剛大概花了三分鐘的時間說明我個人覺得因為我們在立法院工作我們知道預算出了問題我們也在跟藍白共識的過程當中看到藍白非常多荒謬的行為所以身為立法委員約莫可以理解院長的意思但是我要說的是對於一般的國人來說事實上在之前已經引起了非常多的討論跟爭議其實很多人也很擔心就連我辦公室的助理都提醒我\n\n13\n00:04:50,652 --> 00:05:04,564\n委員我的房屋租金補貼可能會沒有還有要生孩子的也會擔心相關的育兒津貼還有孩子們上學的很多費用這些光是在兒少議題或是年輕人的議題我們其實就已經因為這個預算的亂象讓國人非常擔心\n\n14\n00:05:08,727 --> 00:05:35,137\n所以我看到院長之前您有公開說有機會你願意下降向國人說明到底行政院至愛難行的地方是什麼跟每一個國人日常生活影響的事項又會有哪些我覺得這件事情真的真的非常重要我們在推動民主教育的過程我們在意的是實質的討論針對內容的討論然後彼此意見做交流然後因為彼此利益最大化我們做出一些妥協\n\n15\n00:05:35,917 --> 00:06:04,531\n這是民主教育這是政治政治這是民主自由我想要請院長說一下後續在下鄉規劃的部分我們行政院這邊會有什麼樣的態度跟作為我們如何讓國人放心或者是我們如何透過這個下鄉的議題讓更多在野黨的委員真的願意相信他們自己做錯了事情他們亂刪減預算然後甚至提出非常多荒謬的理由作為刪減預算的理由這個真的是非常的荒謬\n\n16\n00:06:05,111 --> 00:06:31,469\n可不可以請院長說明一下後續的規劃謝謝委員如果中央政府總預算以及財發法的復議案都能夠成立我們重新來審視的話我們會去跟人民講說我們如何推動地方建設包括我們的六大區域的產業生活計畫圈以及我們140項的地方建設以及我們現在推出的在經濟發展委員會當中所有重大決議的決議事項那如果才\n\n17\n00:06:32,537 --> 00:06:58,897\n沒有辦法達到這樣子我們也要去告訴人民說今天我們就是有了一部沒有油沒有輪胎的車子不要說我們不會開車我們希望把油把輪胎補上去就像我們問了一個媽媽說你去買菜為什麼今天花的比昨天多的錢媽媽會說我今天多買了一隻雞兩條魚那就是有道理我們多花了那麼多的兩千八百零六億的新增預算但是很多的委員是視而不見故意不談\n\n18\n00:07:00,083 --> 00:07:25,326\n故意把它疏漏就說我們編了一個最大的預算最高額的預算我覺得這個對我們所有的行政部會首長官員所有的公務人員是極端極端的不公平我們也必須向人民說這樣的訴求希望未來我們有機會提出一個合理的財化法的版本能夠重新讓大院來審議之後中央地方財政能夠更健全更均衡的發展同時對於總預算如果沒有辦法透過今天的復讐的話\n\n19\n00:07:26,147 --> 00:07:53,652\n未來我們要尋求各種的方式來讓我們的業務還是要推動該服務人民的該國家發展的該提倡國防的我們一概都不會省下來好謝謝院長提到了各個面向的困境我想要跟院長分享一下我們在做相關財化法爭議的研究的時候我們來看一下頭影片再下一張再下一張我想要到好這個我認為立法院當時的很多討論其實是流於形式我想這個爭議院長都非常清楚來看下一張\n\n20\n00:07:55,441 --> 00:08:16,461\n其實我最擔心的是因為沒有日出條款其實很多地方政府已經站出來了才化法的這個錢看起來好像到縣市政府變多但他們認為為蒙其利先受其害如同我最近剛剛任陽的金門跟馬祖的選區其實馬祖縣的縣長已經在第一時間站出來說他其實擔心的部分更多\n\n21\n00:08:17,162 --> 00:08:41,238\n他們自己的試算其實少了好幾億從中央來的錢也就是財化法實施之後其實馬祖連江縣還有金門還有澎湖可能其實並不會真的只是因為錢變多但他們認為其實會有很多的問題院長你怎麼看這個財化法如果到現在的這個新修正的版本他一個最大的問題也就是會讓城鄉差距拉大比方說\n\n22\n00:08:42,455 --> 00:08:58,062\n人口多的工商發達的他因為權重的比計算他會比較多那一般的縣市也會增加但比例上就沒有那麼多但是一般本來財政狀況沒有那麼好的可能會因為這樣超過他整個的預算數\n\n23\n00:08:59,088 --> 00:09:21,774\n稅出數這個將來在執行上可能會發生很多法律上的問題所以我是覺得這個才法如此這樣的貿然的實施下去這決然就是一個非常不明智的行為所以像現在他到底什麼時候開始能夠生效當然總統公告後生效但是又到明年才要開始生效那這段時間我們就是\n\n24\n00:09:22,588 --> 00:09:41,188\n要遵照這個財發法嗎還是到明年那今年的預算基本上我們不會受到影響今年2025年的中央政策總統不會受到影響但是現在我們開始編的財發法就會受到他的箝制那我們的空間就非常小對地方造成的困難也會很多城鄉差距會明顯的擴大\n\n25\n00:09:41,909 --> 00:09:57,792\n我們來看一下投影片謝謝部長部長先不用離開謝謝投影片下一張好這個是剛剛前面傅坤祺總召他所用的投影片他說財化法把錢送到地方去這些事情通通由地方來承擔他認為地方可以承擔起\n\n26\n00:09:58,152 --> 00:10:17,882\n更多照顧老人健保老人假牙小孩0到6歲國家養重養禮金的分配還有全民防災保險他說這些由通通由地方政府來做但是如果我的認知沒有錯的話其實現在在這個投影片上是他早上自己才用的這個投影片上目前有很多的經費其實是由中央來補助尤其是0到6歲國家養\n\n27\n00:10:19,904 --> 00:10:39,865\n從來都不是地方政府主要的財政支出再更不要說的是很多老人假牙的補助其實是中央政府透過縣市政府的方案去協助地方上的長者去做假牙的補助還有崇洋禮金甚至公立高中收回由地方政府負責當他們喊出這樣的話的時候我其實非常非常的擔心\n\n28\n00:10:40,365 --> 00:10:48,945\n要嘛就是傅坤祺總召他在擔任縣長期間他從來真的都不知道這些錢是中央給的要嘛就是他刻意製造假訊息\n\n29\n00:10:49,966 --> 00:11:09,812\n或者是他根本是在混淆地方的鄉親讓鄉親誤以為當才化法新法實施之後地方鄉親真的可以因為這一大筆錢然後生活會變得更好假牙也好0到6歲國家養也好全部通通丟給縣政府看起來他是要做這樣的承諾但是站在地方上的立場會不會未來\n\n30\n00:11:11,252 --> 00:11:40,078\n他們又認為錢不夠花或是他們沒有好的監督機制他們又回過頭來跟中央要錢然後又拍桌大罵說民進黨中央政府不支持花蓮的發展不支持花蓮的交通不支持花蓮的老人我不知道這樣的巨馬會不會一再一再的上演我非常非常的擔心我想要請院長或是主計總長或是財政部長跟我們說明我們對於地方政府的財政自主管理監督能力有非常的擔心在花蓮我們甚至看到更多荒謬的事情\n\n31\n00:11:41,035 --> 00:12:00,044\n我們很擔心這種跨縣市跨年度的連續性的工程預算將來很可能就會造成在執行上四倍公辦好院長容我打個唱我手上這個袋子是來自於花蓮上面印著傅坤祺總召還有徐政衛縣長這個我不知道院長有沒有看過\n\n32\n00:12:05,012 --> 00:12:20,180\n應該沒看過啦我看過很多類似的背面不要忘了還要宣傳珍愛花蓮徐州味的珍我再說一次我現在沒有辦法確定這個由縣政府的活動上所發出來的這個袋子\n\n33\n00:12:20,580 --> 00:12:37,861\n他的經費來源到底是來自所謂中央補助還是地方自籌款也就是地方自己的財政收入我剛說的擔心就是來自於這件事情如果地方縣市首長為了自己的政治紅利不斷做出這種不受財政紀律沒有自己紀律的規劃像這種\n\n34\n00:12:39,683 --> 00:13:06,619\n贈品我不知道未來地方財政的困難會有多麼的劇烈然後他們會不會繼續來這裡跟院長您拍桌告訴中央說民進黨都沒有照顧地方民進黨都沒有照顧花蓮我非常擔心院長這個袋子會後如果你想要我可以送給你當然不知道這個製作的背後是怎麼樣但是無論中央跟地方政府的預算都應該放在國家的發展而不應該強調家庭的美滿\n\n35\n00:13:08,052 --> 00:13:30,430\n我想國家的發展或是家庭的美滿是每一個人都很在意的事情但是一旦相關的財政紀律沒有建立相關的自我監督的功能不夠完善其實很多地方議員也都開始提出提醒如同我剛剛說的甚至連江縣的縣長他自己也都提出提醒所以是不是可以請部長您說明一下我們到底該怎麼辦去面對後續的財化法的這個亂象\n\n36\n00:13:31,371 --> 00:13:51,177\n這一次三讀通過確實把中央的大筆的一個稅款以及一般性補助款又不可以減少的情況下劃到地方去這個部分要特別強調財政紀律一定要遵守第二個部分因為這樣的大幅裁員的一個結構的改變會讓中央在未來在調記地方財政營區上的空間大為縮減\n\n37\n00:13:52,759 --> 00:14:17,573\n那部分它的發展比較緩慢的地方它正需要中央來給予更多的一個財政資源的時候反而變成沒有資源來協助發展比較慢的地方政府可以獲得中央的一個財政資源相對的發展比較快的它的稅收豐富的在這一次的財化法的一個水平分配的公式上它卻能夠分配更多的財政資源這個就是剛剛院長所說的造成財政資源\n\n38\n00:14:18,854 --> 00:14:42,806\n整個一個調製財政營需的財化法的立法目的以及均衡地方的發展完全失去了這樣的一個立法的意志這一次的修法確實有這樣很大的問題部長我用白話講給一般的鄉親聽我可以說原本就已經有城鄉差距文化資源不足的地方可能會因為這一次財化法修法之後顯得更加的困難擴大城鄉差距我可以下這樣的結論嗎\n\n39\n00:14:43,866 --> 00:15:10,812\n是的確實讓更稅收更多的分到更多的錢而相對的稅收少的卻沒有能夠得到比較好的一個財政資源好所以我想我們就停在這邊還有一些些時間所以剛剛院長您說的您會下箱宣講我覺得這件事情真的非常的重要不管您會到哪一些縣市去我都希望不管是資源豐富的縣市或者是為過去因為有城鄉差距的縣市我認為他們都需要行政院告訴他們新版財化法還有中央政府總預算案\n\n40\n00:15:11,272 --> 00:15:27,067\n在復議都沒有通過之後我們到底會發生什麼事情我認為人民有知的權利而不能放任藍白立委在立法院亂搞造成人民名不良聲以上要拜託院長拜託所有的相關部會首長我們一起跟人民說明好嗎好謝謝陳培宇委員的詢問\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n12310\t16172\t好 謝謝韓院長那有請行政院卓院長 謝謝麻煩再請卓院長陳委員好好 院長早安喔我們先來看第一張投影片喔院長我對於昨天這個畫面感到非常非常非常的遺憾喔遺憾的原因是我們的所有的部會首長被叫到您現在所在的位置的後方但是呢\n40325\t57363\t質詢他們的婦婚期總召他並沒有給這些部長、首長好好的說明到底預算增加的原因到底是什麼他只談數字他不談實質內容就像我們小的時候如果面對考試分數考得不夠好如果爸媽媽只問我們為什麼考不好\n59165\t79118\t不過我們原因就處罰我們一頓我認為我昨天看到的是像這樣子的畫面我可不可以拜託院長花一些時間讓我們知道尤其是我自己喔不管是之前在教育文化委員會兩年或是接下來要到司法法治委員會都會有非常多的議題跟兒少有關所以我真的想要拜託院長可不可以花一點時間讓我們知道\n81420\t97260\t請問在相關的這些預算的亂象之後到底我們會發生什麼樣的事情或者是部會增加這些預算到底是實質上是為了哪些事情謝謝院長好 謝謝委員雖然在立法院裡面這種詢答的過程沒有禁止\n99326\t127747\t這裡很多的官員排排站讓一位委員在那邊質詢沒有禁止但是好幾次我都很感謝韓院長能夠讓官員不要後面排很多的官員但昨天確實發生了數次這樣的狀況而且在質詢的內容是非常取巧的只問官員說你有沒有增加 部會有沒有增加預算比去年多還是少當我們首長說多 那這個詢答就結束了\n128632\t151666\t應該要問 為什麼會多 多在哪裡我用同樣的方式 如果詢問委員立法院今年的預算有沒有比去年多也是多啊 預算書上都多了1.11億啊多了1.11億啊 但是多在哪裡就要去看他多在哪裡 多的有沒有道理他就多在國會交流事務 廣告這一項都多了2500萬\n153427\t178403\t那這個有沒有意義如果有意義 那個多是有意義的如果昨天的質詢應該是說你這個部會的預算有沒有比去年多有 那為什麼多因為我們有2800億的新增項目都散佈在各個部會如果這個部會因為他的新增項目多了一些預算所以他比去年多難道不應該嗎難道所有的部會都要下降嗎所以這個是一個非常取巧的質詢的方式讓\n179844\t202493\t首長沒有辦法充分的說明而且更嚴重的是這些被刪減凍結的預算我們一再強調它都是集中在特定機關特定的項目當中把一個機關裡面的宴會全部刪掉把它凍結百分之五十百分之六十百分之八十的這個出國旅費就好比一部車子你換了一部比較大的車子\n203001\t225694\t但是立法院不給你油錢或是把你扣掉一個輪子這個車子再大再好還是不能開所以我們就是在這個情況底下讓整個政府動彈不得同時不能留用的這件事情我們都曾經記得蔣經國前院長在這裡買醋的錢不能買醬油買醬油的錢不能買醋他今天要我們買醋買醬油的錢都拿去買水嗎\n227023\t249429\t所以不能留用未來在追加預算的情況底下他會造成很大的這個時間上以及執行提出的不可能所以昨天我是很遺憾用這種取巧的問答方式讓問題提出來答案沒有辦法讓首長充分說明而且針對問題的重點讓行政院真的無法動彈的理由是什麼\n250319\t259826\t然後又礙於所謂追加預算法規沒有辦法做的事情要我們未來就尋找這個來做就你來拜託我就可以做的意思這絕對不是常態\n260913\t290212\t好 謝謝院長的說明不過因為我們今天時間有限院長剛剛大概花了三分鐘的時間說明我個人覺得因為我們在立法院工作我們知道預算出了問題我們也在跟藍白共識的過程當中看到藍白非常多荒謬的行為所以身為立法委員約莫可以理解院長的意思但是我要說的是對於一般的國人來說事實上在之前已經引起了非常多的討論跟爭議其實很多人也很擔心就連我辦公室的助理都提醒我\n290652\t304564\t委員我的房屋租金補貼可能會沒有還有要生孩子的也會擔心相關的育兒津貼還有孩子們上學的很多費用這些光是在兒少議題或是年輕人的議題我們其實就已經因為這個預算的亂象讓國人非常擔心\n308727\t335137\t所以我看到院長之前您有公開說有機會你願意下降向國人說明到底行政院至愛難行的地方是什麼跟每一個國人日常生活影響的事項又會有哪些我覺得這件事情真的真的非常重要我們在推動民主教育的過程我們在意的是實質的討論針對內容的討論然後彼此意見做交流然後因為彼此利益最大化我們做出一些妥協\n335917\t364531\t這是民主教育這是政治政治這是民主自由我想要請院長說一下後續在下鄉規劃的部分我們行政院這邊會有什麼樣的態度跟作為我們如何讓國人放心或者是我們如何透過這個下鄉的議題讓更多在野黨的委員真的願意相信他們自己做錯了事情他們亂刪減預算然後甚至提出非常多荒謬的理由作為刪減預算的理由這個真的是非常的荒謬\n365111\t391469\t可不可以請院長說明一下後續的規劃謝謝委員如果中央政府總預算以及財發法的復議案都能夠成立我們重新來審視的話我們會去跟人民講說我們如何推動地方建設包括我們的六大區域的產業生活計畫圈以及我們140項的地方建設以及我們現在推出的在經濟發展委員會當中所有重大決議的決議事項那如果才\n392537\t418897\t沒有辦法達到這樣子我們也要去告訴人民說今天我們就是有了一部沒有油沒有輪胎的車子不要說我們不會開車我們希望把油把輪胎補上去就像我們問了一個媽媽說你去買菜為什麼今天花的比昨天多的錢媽媽會說我今天多買了一隻雞兩條魚那就是有道理我們多花了那麼多的兩千八百零六億的新增預算但是很多的委員是視而不見故意不談\n420083\t445326\t故意把它疏漏就說我們編了一個最大的預算最高額的預算我覺得這個對我們所有的行政部會首長官員所有的公務人員是極端極端的不公平我們也必須向人民說這樣的訴求希望未來我們有機會提出一個合理的財化法的版本能夠重新讓大院來審議之後中央地方財政能夠更健全更均衡的發展同時對於總預算如果沒有辦法透過今天的復讐的話\n446147\t473652\t未來我們要尋求各種的方式來讓我們的業務還是要推動該服務人民的該國家發展的該提倡國防的我們一概都不會省下來好 謝謝院長提到了各個面向的困境我想要跟院長分享一下我們在做相關財化法爭議的研究的時候我們來看一下頭影片再下一張 再下一張我想要到好 這個我認為立法院當時的很多討論其實是流於形式我想這個爭議院長都非常清楚來看下一張\n475441\t496461\t其實我最擔心的是因為沒有日出條款其實很多地方政府已經站出來了才化法的這個錢看起來好像到縣市政府變多但他們認為為蒙其利先受其害如同我最近剛剛任陽的金門跟馬祖的選區其實馬祖縣的縣長已經在第一時間站出來說他其實擔心的部分更多\n497162\t521238\t他們自己的試算其實少了好幾億從中央來的錢也就是財化法實施之後其實馬祖連江縣還有金門還有澎湖可能其實並不會真的只是因為錢變多但他們認為其實會有很多的問題院長你怎麼看這個財化法如果到現在的這個新修正的版本他一個最大的問題也就是會讓城鄉差距拉大比方說\n522455\t538062\t人口多的工商發達的他因為權重的比計算他會比較多那一般的縣市也會增加但比例上就沒有那麼多但是一般本來財政狀況沒有那麼好的可能會因為這樣超過他整個的預算數\n539088\t561774\t稅出數這個將來在執行上可能會發生很多法律上的問題所以我是覺得這個才法如此這樣的貿然的實施下去這決然就是一個非常不明智的行為所以像現在他到底什麼時候開始能夠生效當然總統公告後生效但是又到明年才要開始生效那這段時間我們就是\n562588\t581188\t要遵照這個財發法嗎還是到明年那今年的預算基本上我們不會受到影響今年2025年的中央政策總統不會受到影響但是現在我們開始編的財發法就會受到他的箝制那我們的空間就非常小對地方造成的困難也會很多城鄉差距會明顯的擴大\n581909\t597792\t我們來看一下投影片 謝謝部長部長先不用離開 謝謝投影片下一張好 這個是剛剛前面傅坤祺總召他所用的投影片他說 財化法把錢送到地方去這些事情通通由地方來承擔他認為地方可以承擔起\n598152\t617882\t更多照顧老人健保老人假牙小孩0到6歲國家養重養禮金的分配還有全民防災保險他說這些由通通由地方政府來做但是如果我的認知沒有錯的話其實現在在這個投影片上是他早上自己才用的這個投影片上目前有很多的經費其實是由中央來補助尤其是0到6歲國家養\n619904\t639865\t從來都不是地方政府主要的財政支出再更不要說的是很多老人假牙的補助其實是中央政府透過縣市政府的方案去協助地方上的長者去做假牙的補助還有崇洋禮金甚至公立高中收回由地方政府負責當他們喊出這樣的話的時候我其實非常非常的擔心\n640365\t648945\t要嘛就是傅坤祺總召他在擔任縣長期間他從來真的都不知道這些錢是中央給的要嘛就是他刻意製造假訊息\n649966\t669812\t或者是他根本是在混淆地方的鄉親讓鄉親誤以為當才化法新法實施之後地方鄉親真的可以因為這一大筆錢然後生活會變得更好假牙也好0到6歲國家養也好全部通通丟給縣政府看起來他是要做這樣的承諾但是站在地方上的立場會不會未來\n671252\t700078\t他們又認為錢不夠花或是他們沒有好的監督機制他們又回過頭來跟中央要錢然後又拍桌大罵說民進黨中央政府不支持花蓮的發展不支持花蓮的交通不支持花蓮的老人我不知道這樣的巨馬會不會一再一再的上演我非常非常的擔心我想要請院長或是主計總長或是財政部長跟我們說明我們對於地方政府的財政自主管理監督能力有非常的擔心在花蓮我們甚至看到更多荒謬的事情\n701035\t720044\t我們很擔心這種跨縣市跨年度的連續性的工程預算將來很可能就會造成在執行上四倍公辦好 院長 容我打個唱我手上這個袋子是來自於花蓮上面印著傅坤祺總召還有徐政衛縣長這個我不知道院長有沒有看過\n725012\t740180\t應該沒看過啦我看過很多類似的背面不要忘了還要宣傳珍愛花蓮徐州味的珍我再說一次我現在沒有辦法確定這個由縣政府的活動上所發出來的這個袋子\n740580\t757861\t他的經費來源到底是來自所謂中央補助還是地方自籌款也就是地方自己的財政收入我剛說的擔心就是來自於這件事情如果地方縣市首長為了自己的政治紅利不斷做出這種不受財政紀律沒有自己紀律的規劃像這種\n759683\t786619\t贈品我不知道未來地方財政的困難會有多麼的劇烈然後他們會不會繼續來這裡跟院長您拍桌告訴中央說民進黨都沒有照顧地方民進黨都沒有照顧花蓮我非常擔心院長這個袋子會後如果你想要我可以送給你當然不知道這個製作的背後是怎麼樣但是無論中央跟地方政府的預算都應該放在國家的發展而不應該強調家庭的美滿\n788052\t810430\t我想國家的發展或是家庭的美滿是每一個人都很在意的事情但是一旦相關的財政紀律沒有建立相關的自我監督的功能不夠完善其實很多地方議員也都開始提出提醒如同我剛剛說的甚至連江縣的縣長他自己也都提出提醒所以是不是可以請部長您說明一下我們到底該怎麼辦去面對後續的財化法的這個亂象\n811371\t831177\t這一次三讀通過確實把中央的大筆的一個稅款以及一般性補助款又不可以減少的情況下劃到地方去這個部分要特別強調財政紀律一定要遵守第二個部分因為這樣的大幅裁員的一個結構的改變會讓中央在未來在調記地方財政營區上的空間大為縮減\n832759\t857573\t那部分它的發展比較緩慢的地方它正需要中央來給予更多的一個財政資源的時候反而變成沒有資源來協助發展比較慢的地方政府可以獲得中央的一個財政資源相對的發展比較快的它的稅收豐富的在這一次的財化法的一個水平分配的公式上它卻能夠分配更多的財政資源這個就是剛剛院長所說的造成財政資源\n858854\t882806\t整個一個調製財政營需的財化法的立法目的以及均衡地方的發展完全失去了這樣的一個立法的意志這一次的修法確實有這樣很大的問題部長我用白話講給一般的鄉親聽我可以說原本就已經有城鄉差距文化資源不足的地方可能會因為這一次財化法修法之後顯得更加的困難擴大城鄉差距我可以下這樣的結論嗎\n883866\t910812\t是的確實讓更稅收更多的分到更多的錢而相對的稅收少的卻沒有能夠得到比較好的一個財政資源好所以我想我們就停在這邊還有一些些時間所以剛剛院長您說的您會下箱宣講我覺得這件事情真的非常的重要不管您會到哪一些縣市去我都希望不管是資源豐富的縣市或者是為過去因為有城鄉差距的縣市我認為他們都需要行政院告訴他們新版財化法還有中央政府總預算案\n911272\t927067\t在復議都沒有通過之後我們到底會發生什麼事情我認為人民有知的權利而不能放任藍白立委在立法院亂搞造成人民名不良聲以上要拜託院長 拜託所有的相關部會首長我們一起跟人民說明 好嗎好 謝謝陳培宇委員的詢問\n","txt":"好 謝謝韓院長那有請行政院卓院長 謝謝麻煩再請卓院長陳委員好好 院長早安喔我們先來看第一張投影片喔院長我對於昨天這個畫面感到非常非常非常的遺憾喔遺憾的原因是我們的所有的部會首長被叫到您現在所在的位置的後方但是呢\n質詢他們的婦婚期總召他並沒有給這些部長、首長好好的說明到底預算增加的原因到底是什麼他只談數字他不談實質內容就像我們小的時候如果面對考試分數考得不夠好如果爸媽媽只問我們為什麼考不好\n不過我們原因就處罰我們一頓我認為我昨天看到的是像這樣子的畫面我可不可以拜託院長花一些時間讓我們知道尤其是我自己喔不管是之前在教育文化委員會兩年或是接下來要到司法法治委員會都會有非常多的議題跟兒少有關所以我真的想要拜託院長可不可以花一點時間讓我們知道\n請問在相關的這些預算的亂象之後到底我們會發生什麼樣的事情或者是部會增加這些預算到底是實質上是為了哪些事情謝謝院長好 謝謝委員雖然在立法院裡面這種詢答的過程沒有禁止\n這裡很多的官員排排站讓一位委員在那邊質詢沒有禁止但是好幾次我都很感謝韓院長能夠讓官員不要後面排很多的官員但昨天確實發生了數次這樣的狀況而且在質詢的內容是非常取巧的只問官員說你有沒有增加 部會有沒有增加預算比去年多還是少當我們首長說多 那這個詢答就結束了\n應該要問 為什麼會多 多在哪裡我用同樣的方式 如果詢問委員立法院今年的預算有沒有比去年多也是多啊 預算書上都多了1.11億啊多了1.11億啊 但是多在哪裡就要去看他多在哪裡 多的有沒有道理他就多在國會交流事務 廣告這一項都多了2500萬\n那這個有沒有意義如果有意義 那個多是有意義的如果昨天的質詢應該是說你這個部會的預算有沒有比去年多有 那為什麼多因為我們有2800億的新增項目都散佈在各個部會如果這個部會因為他的新增項目多了一些預算所以他比去年多難道不應該嗎難道所有的部會都要下降嗎所以這個是一個非常取巧的質詢的方式讓\n首長沒有辦法充分的說明而且更嚴重的是這些被刪減凍結的預算我們一再強調它都是集中在特定機關特定的項目當中把一個機關裡面的宴會全部刪掉把它凍結百分之五十百分之六十百分之八十的這個出國旅費就好比一部車子你換了一部比較大的車子\n但是立法院不給你油錢或是把你扣掉一個輪子這個車子再大再好還是不能開所以我們就是在這個情況底下讓整個政府動彈不得同時不能留用的這件事情我們都曾經記得蔣經國前院長在這裡買醋的錢不能買醬油買醬油的錢不能買醋他今天要我們買醋買醬油的錢都拿去買水嗎\n所以不能留用未來在追加預算的情況底下他會造成很大的這個時間上以及執行提出的不可能所以昨天我是很遺憾用這種取巧的問答方式讓問題提出來答案沒有辦法讓首長充分說明而且針對問題的重點讓行政院真的無法動彈的理由是什麼\n然後又礙於所謂追加預算法規沒有辦法做的事情要我們未來就尋找這個來做就你來拜託我就可以做的意思這絕對不是常態\n好 謝謝院長的說明不過因為我們今天時間有限院長剛剛大概花了三分鐘的時間說明我個人覺得因為我們在立法院工作我們知道預算出了問題我們也在跟藍白共識的過程當中看到藍白非常多荒謬的行為所以身為立法委員約莫可以理解院長的意思但是我要說的是對於一般的國人來說事實上在之前已經引起了非常多的討論跟爭議其實很多人也很擔心就連我辦公室的助理都提醒我\n委員我的房屋租金補貼可能會沒有還有要生孩子的也會擔心相關的育兒津貼還有孩子們上學的很多費用這些光是在兒少議題或是年輕人的議題我們其實就已經因為這個預算的亂象讓國人非常擔心\n所以我看到院長之前您有公開說有機會你願意下降向國人說明到底行政院至愛難行的地方是什麼跟每一個國人日常生活影響的事項又會有哪些我覺得這件事情真的真的非常重要我們在推動民主教育的過程我們在意的是實質的討論針對內容的討論然後彼此意見做交流然後因為彼此利益最大化我們做出一些妥協\n這是民主教育這是政治政治這是民主自由我想要請院長說一下後續在下鄉規劃的部分我們行政院這邊會有什麼樣的態度跟作為我們如何讓國人放心或者是我們如何透過這個下鄉的議題讓更多在野黨的委員真的願意相信他們自己做錯了事情他們亂刪減預算然後甚至提出非常多荒謬的理由作為刪減預算的理由這個真的是非常的荒謬\n可不可以請院長說明一下後續的規劃謝謝委員如果中央政府總預算以及財發法的復議案都能夠成立我們重新來審視的話我們會去跟人民講說我們如何推動地方建設包括我們的六大區域的產業生活計畫圈以及我們140項的地方建設以及我們現在推出的在經濟發展委員會當中所有重大決議的決議事項那如果才\n沒有辦法達到這樣子我們也要去告訴人民說今天我們就是有了一部沒有油沒有輪胎的車子不要說我們不會開車我們希望把油把輪胎補上去就像我們問了一個媽媽說你去買菜為什麼今天花的比昨天多的錢媽媽會說我今天多買了一隻雞兩條魚那就是有道理我們多花了那麼多的兩千八百零六億的新增預算但是很多的委員是視而不見故意不談\n故意把它疏漏就說我們編了一個最大的預算最高額的預算我覺得這個對我們所有的行政部會首長官員所有的公務人員是極端極端的不公平我們也必須向人民說這樣的訴求希望未來我們有機會提出一個合理的財化法的版本能夠重新讓大院來審議之後中央地方財政能夠更健全更均衡的發展同時對於總預算如果沒有辦法透過今天的復讐的話\n未來我們要尋求各種的方式來讓我們的業務還是要推動該服務人民的該國家發展的該提倡國防的我們一概都不會省下來好 謝謝院長提到了各個面向的困境我想要跟院長分享一下我們在做相關財化法爭議的研究的時候我們來看一下頭影片再下一張 再下一張我想要到好 這個我認為立法院當時的很多討論其實是流於形式我想這個爭議院長都非常清楚來看下一張\n其實我最擔心的是因為沒有日出條款其實很多地方政府已經站出來了才化法的這個錢看起來好像到縣市政府變多但他們認為為蒙其利先受其害如同我最近剛剛任陽的金門跟馬祖的選區其實馬祖縣的縣長已經在第一時間站出來說他其實擔心的部分更多\n他們自己的試算其實少了好幾億從中央來的錢也就是財化法實施之後其實馬祖連江縣還有金門還有澎湖可能其實並不會真的只是因為錢變多但他們認為其實會有很多的問題院長你怎麼看這個財化法如果到現在的這個新修正的版本他一個最大的問題也就是會讓城鄉差距拉大比方說\n人口多的工商發達的他因為權重的比計算他會比較多那一般的縣市也會增加但比例上就沒有那麼多但是一般本來財政狀況沒有那麼好的可能會因為這樣超過他整個的預算數\n稅出數這個將來在執行上可能會發生很多法律上的問題所以我是覺得這個才法如此這樣的貿然的實施下去這決然就是一個非常不明智的行為所以像現在他到底什麼時候開始能夠生效當然總統公告後生效但是又到明年才要開始生效那這段時間我們就是\n要遵照這個財發法嗎還是到明年那今年的預算基本上我們不會受到影響今年2025年的中央政策總統不會受到影響但是現在我們開始編的財發法就會受到他的箝制那我們的空間就非常小對地方造成的困難也會很多城鄉差距會明顯的擴大\n我們來看一下投影片 謝謝部長部長先不用離開 謝謝投影片下一張好 這個是剛剛前面傅坤祺總召他所用的投影片他說 財化法把錢送到地方去這些事情通通由地方來承擔他認為地方可以承擔起\n更多照顧老人健保老人假牙小孩0到6歲國家養重養禮金的分配還有全民防災保險他說這些由通通由地方政府來做但是如果我的認知沒有錯的話其實現在在這個投影片上是他早上自己才用的這個投影片上目前有很多的經費其實是由中央來補助尤其是0到6歲國家養\n從來都不是地方政府主要的財政支出再更不要說的是很多老人假牙的補助其實是中央政府透過縣市政府的方案去協助地方上的長者去做假牙的補助還有崇洋禮金甚至公立高中收回由地方政府負責當他們喊出這樣的話的時候我其實非常非常的擔心\n要嘛就是傅坤祺總召他在擔任縣長期間他從來真的都不知道這些錢是中央給的要嘛就是他刻意製造假訊息\n或者是他根本是在混淆地方的鄉親讓鄉親誤以為當才化法新法實施之後地方鄉親真的可以因為這一大筆錢然後生活會變得更好假牙也好0到6歲國家養也好全部通通丟給縣政府看起來他是要做這樣的承諾但是站在地方上的立場會不會未來\n他們又認為錢不夠花或是他們沒有好的監督機制他們又回過頭來跟中央要錢然後又拍桌大罵說民進黨中央政府不支持花蓮的發展不支持花蓮的交通不支持花蓮的老人我不知道這樣的巨馬會不會一再一再的上演我非常非常的擔心我想要請院長或是主計總長或是財政部長跟我們說明我們對於地方政府的財政自主管理監督能力有非常的擔心在花蓮我們甚至看到更多荒謬的事情\n我們很擔心這種跨縣市跨年度的連續性的工程預算將來很可能就會造成在執行上四倍公辦好 院長 容我打個唱我手上這個袋子是來自於花蓮上面印著傅坤祺總召還有徐政衛縣長這個我不知道院長有沒有看過\n應該沒看過啦我看過很多類似的背面不要忘了還要宣傳珍愛花蓮徐州味的珍我再說一次我現在沒有辦法確定這個由縣政府的活動上所發出來的這個袋子\n他的經費來源到底是來自所謂中央補助還是地方自籌款也就是地方自己的財政收入我剛說的擔心就是來自於這件事情如果地方縣市首長為了自己的政治紅利不斷做出這種不受財政紀律沒有自己紀律的規劃像這種\n贈品我不知道未來地方財政的困難會有多麼的劇烈然後他們會不會繼續來這裡跟院長您拍桌告訴中央說民進黨都沒有照顧地方民進黨都沒有照顧花蓮我非常擔心院長這個袋子會後如果你想要我可以送給你當然不知道這個製作的背後是怎麼樣但是無論中央跟地方政府的預算都應該放在國家的發展而不應該強調家庭的美滿\n我想國家的發展或是家庭的美滿是每一個人都很在意的事情但是一旦相關的財政紀律沒有建立相關的自我監督的功能不夠完善其實很多地方議員也都開始提出提醒如同我剛剛說的甚至連江縣的縣長他自己也都提出提醒所以是不是可以請部長您說明一下我們到底該怎麼辦去面對後續的財化法的這個亂象\n這一次三讀通過確實把中央的大筆的一個稅款以及一般性補助款又不可以減少的情況下劃到地方去這個部分要特別強調財政紀律一定要遵守第二個部分因為這樣的大幅裁員的一個結構的改變會讓中央在未來在調記地方財政營區上的空間大為縮減\n那部分它的發展比較緩慢的地方它正需要中央來給予更多的一個財政資源的時候反而變成沒有資源來協助發展比較慢的地方政府可以獲得中央的一個財政資源相對的發展比較快的它的稅收豐富的在這一次的財化法的一個水平分配的公式上它卻能夠分配更多的財政資源這個就是剛剛院長所說的造成財政資源\n整個一個調製財政營需的財化法的立法目的以及均衡地方的發展完全失去了這樣的一個立法的意志這一次的修法確實有這樣很大的問題部長我用白話講給一般的鄉親聽我可以說原本就已經有城鄉差距文化資源不足的地方可能會因為這一次財化法修法之後顯得更加的困難擴大城鄉差距我可以下這樣的結論嗎\n是的確實讓更稅收更多的分到更多的錢而相對的稅收少的卻沒有能夠得到比較好的一個財政資源好所以我想我們就停在這邊還有一些些時間所以剛剛院長您說的您會下箱宣講我覺得這件事情真的非常的重要不管您會到哪一些縣市去我都希望不管是資源豐富的縣市或者是為過去因為有城鄉差距的縣市我認為他們都需要行政院告訴他們新版財化法還有中央政府總預算案\n在復議都沒有通過之後我們到底會發生什麼事情我認為人民有知的權利而不能放任藍白立委在立法院亂搞造成人民名不良聲以上要拜託院長 拜託所有的相關部會首長我們一起跟人民說明 好嗎好 謝謝陳培宇委員的詢問\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:12.310 --> 00:16.172\n好謝謝韓院長那有請行政院卓院長謝謝麻煩再請卓院長陳委員好好院長早安喔我們先來看第一張投影片喔院長我對於昨天這個畫面感到非常非常非常的遺憾喔遺憾的原因是我們的所有的部會首長被叫到您現在所在的位置的後方但是呢\n\n00:40.325 --> 00:57.363\n質詢他們的婦婚期總召他並沒有給這些部長、首長好好的說明到底預算增加的原因到底是什麼他只談數字他不談實質內容就像我們小的時候如果面對考試分數考得不夠好如果爸媽媽只問我們為什麼考不好\n\n00:59.165 --> 01:19.118\n不過我們原因就處罰我們一頓我認為我昨天看到的是像這樣子的畫面我可不可以拜託院長花一些時間讓我們知道尤其是我自己喔不管是之前在教育文化委員會兩年或是接下來要到司法法治委員會都會有非常多的議題跟兒少有關所以我真的想要拜託院長可不可以花一點時間讓我們知道\n\n01:21.420 --> 01:37.260\n請問在相關的這些預算的亂象之後到底我們會發生什麼樣的事情或者是部會增加這些預算到底是實質上是為了哪些事情謝謝院長好謝謝委員雖然在立法院裡面這種詢答的過程沒有禁止\n\n01:39.326 --> 02:07.747\n這裡很多的官員排排站讓一位委員在那邊質詢沒有禁止但是好幾次我都很感謝韓院長能夠讓官員不要後面排很多的官員但昨天確實發生了數次這樣的狀況而且在質詢的內容是非常取巧的只問官員說你有沒有增加部會有沒有增加預算比去年多還是少當我們首長說多那這個詢答就結束了\n\n02:08.632 --> 02:31.666\n應該要問為什麼會多多在哪裡我用同樣的方式如果詢問委員立法院今年的預算有沒有比去年多也是多啊預算書上都多了1.11億啊多了1.11億啊但是多在哪裡就要去看他多在哪裡多的有沒有道理他就多在國會交流事務廣告這一項都多了2500萬\n\n02:33.427 --> 02:58.403\n那這個有沒有意義如果有意義那個多是有意義的如果昨天的質詢應該是說你這個部會的預算有沒有比去年多有那為什麼多因為我們有2800億的新增項目都散佈在各個部會如果這個部會因為他的新增項目多了一些預算所以他比去年多難道不應該嗎難道所有的部會都要下降嗎所以這個是一個非常取巧的質詢的方式讓\n\n02:59.844 --> 03:22.493\n首長沒有辦法充分的說明而且更嚴重的是這些被刪減凍結的預算我們一再強調它都是集中在特定機關特定的項目當中把一個機關裡面的宴會全部刪掉把它凍結百分之五十百分之六十百分之八十的這個出國旅費就好比一部車子你換了一部比較大的車子\n\n03:23.001 --> 03:45.694\n但是立法院不給你油錢或是把你扣掉一個輪子這個車子再大再好還是不能開所以我們就是在這個情況底下讓整個政府動彈不得同時不能留用的這件事情我們都曾經記得蔣經國前院長在這裡買醋的錢不能買醬油買醬油的錢不能買醋他今天要我們買醋買醬油的錢都拿去買水嗎\n\n03:47.023 --> 04:09.429\n所以不能留用未來在追加預算的情況底下他會造成很大的這個時間上以及執行提出的不可能所以昨天我是很遺憾用這種取巧的問答方式讓問題提出來答案沒有辦法讓首長充分說明而且針對問題的重點讓行政院真的無法動彈的理由是什麼\n\n04:10.319 --> 04:19.826\n然後又礙於所謂追加預算法規沒有辦法做的事情要我們未來就尋找這個來做就你來拜託我就可以做的意思這絕對不是常態\n\n04:20.913 --> 04:50.212\n好謝謝院長的說明不過因為我們今天時間有限院長剛剛大概花了三分鐘的時間說明我個人覺得因為我們在立法院工作我們知道預算出了問題我們也在跟藍白共識的過程當中看到藍白非常多荒謬的行為所以身為立法委員約莫可以理解院長的意思但是我要說的是對於一般的國人來說事實上在之前已經引起了非常多的討論跟爭議其實很多人也很擔心就連我辦公室的助理都提醒我\n\n04:50.652 --> 05:04.564\n委員我的房屋租金補貼可能會沒有還有要生孩子的也會擔心相關的育兒津貼還有孩子們上學的很多費用這些光是在兒少議題或是年輕人的議題我們其實就已經因為這個預算的亂象讓國人非常擔心\n\n05:08.727 --> 05:35.137\n所以我看到院長之前您有公開說有機會你願意下降向國人說明到底行政院至愛難行的地方是什麼跟每一個國人日常生活影響的事項又會有哪些我覺得這件事情真的真的非常重要我們在推動民主教育的過程我們在意的是實質的討論針對內容的討論然後彼此意見做交流然後因為彼此利益最大化我們做出一些妥協\n\n05:35.917 --> 06:04.531\n這是民主教育這是政治政治這是民主自由我想要請院長說一下後續在下鄉規劃的部分我們行政院這邊會有什麼樣的態度跟作為我們如何讓國人放心或者是我們如何透過這個下鄉的議題讓更多在野黨的委員真的願意相信他們自己做錯了事情他們亂刪減預算然後甚至提出非常多荒謬的理由作為刪減預算的理由這個真的是非常的荒謬\n\n06:05.111 --> 06:31.469\n可不可以請院長說明一下後續的規劃謝謝委員如果中央政府總預算以及財發法的復議案都能夠成立我們重新來審視的話我們會去跟人民講說我們如何推動地方建設包括我們的六大區域的產業生活計畫圈以及我們140項的地方建設以及我們現在推出的在經濟發展委員會當中所有重大決議的決議事項那如果才\n\n06:32.537 --> 06:58.897\n沒有辦法達到這樣子我們也要去告訴人民說今天我們就是有了一部沒有油沒有輪胎的車子不要說我們不會開車我們希望把油把輪胎補上去就像我們問了一個媽媽說你去買菜為什麼今天花的比昨天多的錢媽媽會說我今天多買了一隻雞兩條魚那就是有道理我們多花了那麼多的兩千八百零六億的新增預算但是很多的委員是視而不見故意不談\n\n07:00.083 --> 07:25.326\n故意把它疏漏就說我們編了一個最大的預算最高額的預算我覺得這個對我們所有的行政部會首長官員所有的公務人員是極端極端的不公平我們也必須向人民說這樣的訴求希望未來我們有機會提出一個合理的財化法的版本能夠重新讓大院來審議之後中央地方財政能夠更健全更均衡的發展同時對於總預算如果沒有辦法透過今天的復讐的話\n\n07:26.147 --> 07:53.652\n未來我們要尋求各種的方式來讓我們的業務還是要推動該服務人民的該國家發展的該提倡國防的我們一概都不會省下來好謝謝院長提到了各個面向的困境我想要跟院長分享一下我們在做相關財化法爭議的研究的時候我們來看一下頭影片再下一張再下一張我想要到好這個我認為立法院當時的很多討論其實是流於形式我想這個爭議院長都非常清楚來看下一張\n\n07:55.441 --> 08:16.461\n其實我最擔心的是因為沒有日出條款其實很多地方政府已經站出來了才化法的這個錢看起來好像到縣市政府變多但他們認為為蒙其利先受其害如同我最近剛剛任陽的金門跟馬祖的選區其實馬祖縣的縣長已經在第一時間站出來說他其實擔心的部分更多\n\n08:17.162 --> 08:41.238\n他們自己的試算其實少了好幾億從中央來的錢也就是財化法實施之後其實馬祖連江縣還有金門還有澎湖可能其實並不會真的只是因為錢變多但他們認為其實會有很多的問題院長你怎麼看這個財化法如果到現在的這個新修正的版本他一個最大的問題也就是會讓城鄉差距拉大比方說\n\n08:42.455 --> 08:58.062\n人口多的工商發達的他因為權重的比計算他會比較多那一般的縣市也會增加但比例上就沒有那麼多但是一般本來財政狀況沒有那麼好的可能會因為這樣超過他整個的預算數\n\n08:59.088 --> 09:21.774\n稅出數這個將來在執行上可能會發生很多法律上的問題所以我是覺得這個才法如此這樣的貿然的實施下去這決然就是一個非常不明智的行為所以像現在他到底什麼時候開始能夠生效當然總統公告後生效但是又到明年才要開始生效那這段時間我們就是\n\n09:22.588 --> 09:41.188\n要遵照這個財發法嗎還是到明年那今年的預算基本上我們不會受到影響今年2025年的中央政策總統不會受到影響但是現在我們開始編的財發法就會受到他的箝制那我們的空間就非常小對地方造成的困難也會很多城鄉差距會明顯的擴大\n\n09:41.909 --> 09:57.792\n我們來看一下投影片謝謝部長部長先不用離開謝謝投影片下一張好這個是剛剛前面傅坤祺總召他所用的投影片他說財化法把錢送到地方去這些事情通通由地方來承擔他認為地方可以承擔起\n\n09:58.152 --> 10:17.882\n更多照顧老人健保老人假牙小孩0到6歲國家養重養禮金的分配還有全民防災保險他說這些由通通由地方政府來做但是如果我的認知沒有錯的話其實現在在這個投影片上是他早上自己才用的這個投影片上目前有很多的經費其實是由中央來補助尤其是0到6歲國家養\n\n10:19.904 --> 10:39.865\n從來都不是地方政府主要的財政支出再更不要說的是很多老人假牙的補助其實是中央政府透過縣市政府的方案去協助地方上的長者去做假牙的補助還有崇洋禮金甚至公立高中收回由地方政府負責當他們喊出這樣的話的時候我其實非常非常的擔心\n\n10:40.365 --> 10:48.945\n要嘛就是傅坤祺總召他在擔任縣長期間他從來真的都不知道這些錢是中央給的要嘛就是他刻意製造假訊息\n\n10:49.966 --> 11:09.812\n或者是他根本是在混淆地方的鄉親讓鄉親誤以為當才化法新法實施之後地方鄉親真的可以因為這一大筆錢然後生活會變得更好假牙也好0到6歲國家養也好全部通通丟給縣政府看起來他是要做這樣的承諾但是站在地方上的立場會不會未來\n\n11:11.252 --> 11:40.078\n他們又認為錢不夠花或是他們沒有好的監督機制他們又回過頭來跟中央要錢然後又拍桌大罵說民進黨中央政府不支持花蓮的發展不支持花蓮的交通不支持花蓮的老人我不知道這樣的巨馬會不會一再一再的上演我非常非常的擔心我想要請院長或是主計總長或是財政部長跟我們說明我們對於地方政府的財政自主管理監督能力有非常的擔心在花蓮我們甚至看到更多荒謬的事情\n\n11:41.035 --> 12:00.044\n我們很擔心這種跨縣市跨年度的連續性的工程預算將來很可能就會造成在執行上四倍公辦好院長容我打個唱我手上這個袋子是來自於花蓮上面印著傅坤祺總召還有徐政衛縣長這個我不知道院長有沒有看過\n\n12:05.012 --> 12:20.180\n應該沒看過啦我看過很多類似的背面不要忘了還要宣傳珍愛花蓮徐州味的珍我再說一次我現在沒有辦法確定這個由縣政府的活動上所發出來的這個袋子\n\n12:20.580 --> 12:37.861\n他的經費來源到底是來自所謂中央補助還是地方自籌款也就是地方自己的財政收入我剛說的擔心就是來自於這件事情如果地方縣市首長為了自己的政治紅利不斷做出這種不受財政紀律沒有自己紀律的規劃像這種\n\n12:39.683 --> 13:06.619\n贈品我不知道未來地方財政的困難會有多麼的劇烈然後他們會不會繼續來這裡跟院長您拍桌告訴中央說民進黨都沒有照顧地方民進黨都沒有照顧花蓮我非常擔心院長這個袋子會後如果你想要我可以送給你當然不知道這個製作的背後是怎麼樣但是無論中央跟地方政府的預算都應該放在國家的發展而不應該強調家庭的美滿\n\n13:08.052 --> 13:30.430\n我想國家的發展或是家庭的美滿是每一個人都很在意的事情但是一旦相關的財政紀律沒有建立相關的自我監督的功能不夠完善其實很多地方議員也都開始提出提醒如同我剛剛說的甚至連江縣的縣長他自己也都提出提醒所以是不是可以請部長您說明一下我們到底該怎麼辦去面對後續的財化法的這個亂象\n\n13:31.371 --> 13:51.177\n這一次三讀通過確實把中央的大筆的一個稅款以及一般性補助款又不可以減少的情況下劃到地方去這個部分要特別強調財政紀律一定要遵守第二個部分因為這樣的大幅裁員的一個結構的改變會讓中央在未來在調記地方財政營區上的空間大為縮減\n\n13:52.759 --> 14:17.573\n那部分它的發展比較緩慢的地方它正需要中央來給予更多的一個財政資源的時候反而變成沒有資源來協助發展比較慢的地方政府可以獲得中央的一個財政資源相對的發展比較快的它的稅收豐富的在這一次的財化法的一個水平分配的公式上它卻能夠分配更多的財政資源這個就是剛剛院長所說的造成財政資源\n\n14:18.854 --> 14:42.806\n整個一個調製財政營需的財化法的立法目的以及均衡地方的發展完全失去了這樣的一個立法的意志這一次的修法確實有這樣很大的問題部長我用白話講給一般的鄉親聽我可以說原本就已經有城鄉差距文化資源不足的地方可能會因為這一次財化法修法之後顯得更加的困難擴大城鄉差距我可以下這樣的結論嗎\n\n14:43.866 --> 15:10.812\n是的確實讓更稅收更多的分到更多的錢而相對的稅收少的卻沒有能夠得到比較好的一個財政資源好所以我想我們就停在這邊還有一些些時間所以剛剛院長您說的您會下箱宣講我覺得這件事情真的非常的重要不管您會到哪一些縣市去我都希望不管是資源豐富的縣市或者是為過去因為有城鄉差距的縣市我認為他們都需要行政院告訴他們新版財化法還有中央政府總預算案\n\n15:11.272 --> 15:27.067\n在復議都沒有通過之後我們到底會發生什麼事情我認為人民有知的權利而不能放任藍白立委在立法院亂搞造成人民名不良聲以上要拜託院長拜託所有的相關部會首長我們一起跟人民說明好嗎好謝謝陳培宇委員的詢問\n\n","segments":[{"start":12.31,"end":16.172,"text":"好 謝謝韓院長那有請行政院卓院長 謝謝麻煩再請卓院長陳委員好好 院長早安喔我們先來看第一張投影片喔院長我對於昨天這個畫面感到非常非常非常的遺憾喔遺憾的原因是我們的所有的部會首長被叫到您現在所在的位置的後方但是呢"},{"start":40.325,"end":57.363,"text":"質詢他們的婦婚期總召他並沒有給這些部長、首長好好的說明到底預算增加的原因到底是什麼他只談數字他不談實質內容就像我們小的時候如果面對考試分數考得不夠好如果爸媽媽只問我們為什麼考不好"},{"start":59.165,"end":79.118,"text":"不過我們原因就處罰我們一頓我認為我昨天看到的是像這樣子的畫面我可不可以拜託院長花一些時間讓我們知道尤其是我自己喔不管是之前在教育文化委員會兩年或是接下來要到司法法治委員會都會有非常多的議題跟兒少有關所以我真的想要拜託院長可不可以花一點時間讓我們知道"},{"start":81.42,"end":97.26,"text":"請問在相關的這些預算的亂象之後到底我們會發生什麼樣的事情或者是部會增加這些預算到底是實質上是為了哪些事情謝謝院長好 謝謝委員雖然在立法院裡面這種詢答的過程沒有禁止"},{"start":99.326,"end":127.747,"text":"這裡很多的官員排排站讓一位委員在那邊質詢沒有禁止但是好幾次我都很感謝韓院長能夠讓官員不要後面排很多的官員但昨天確實發生了數次這樣的狀況而且在質詢的內容是非常取巧的只問官員說你有沒有增加 部會有沒有增加預算比去年多還是少當我們首長說多 那這個詢答就結束了"},{"start":128.632,"end":151.666,"text":"應該要問 為什麼會多 多在哪裡我用同樣的方式 如果詢問委員立法院今年的預算有沒有比去年多也是多啊 預算書上都多了1.11億啊多了1.11億啊 但是多在哪裡就要去看他多在哪裡 多的有沒有道理他就多在國會交流事務 廣告這一項都多了2500萬"},{"start":153.427,"end":178.403,"text":"那這個有沒有意義如果有意義 那個多是有意義的如果昨天的質詢應該是說你這個部會的預算有沒有比去年多有 那為什麼多因為我們有2800億的新增項目都散佈在各個部會如果這個部會因為他的新增項目多了一些預算所以他比去年多難道不應該嗎難道所有的部會都要下降嗎所以這個是一個非常取巧的質詢的方式讓"},{"start":179.844,"end":202.493,"text":"首長沒有辦法充分的說明而且更嚴重的是這些被刪減凍結的預算我們一再強調它都是集中在特定機關特定的項目當中把一個機關裡面的宴會全部刪掉把它凍結百分之五十百分之六十百分之八十的這個出國旅費就好比一部車子你換了一部比較大的車子"},{"start":203.001,"end":225.694,"text":"但是立法院不給你油錢或是把你扣掉一個輪子這個車子再大再好還是不能開所以我們就是在這個情況底下讓整個政府動彈不得同時不能留用的這件事情我們都曾經記得蔣經國前院長在這裡買醋的錢不能買醬油買醬油的錢不能買醋他今天要我們買醋買醬油的錢都拿去買水嗎"},{"start":227.023,"end":249.429,"text":"所以不能留用未來在追加預算的情況底下他會造成很大的這個時間上以及執行提出的不可能所以昨天我是很遺憾用這種取巧的問答方式讓問題提出來答案沒有辦法讓首長充分說明而且針對問題的重點讓行政院真的無法動彈的理由是什麼"},{"start":250.319,"end":259.826,"text":"然後又礙於所謂追加預算法規沒有辦法做的事情要我們未來就尋找這個來做就你來拜託我就可以做的意思這絕對不是常態"},{"start":260.913,"end":290.212,"text":"好 謝謝院長的說明不過因為我們今天時間有限院長剛剛大概花了三分鐘的時間說明我個人覺得因為我們在立法院工作我們知道預算出了問題我們也在跟藍白共識的過程當中看到藍白非常多荒謬的行為所以身為立法委員約莫可以理解院長的意思但是我要說的是對於一般的國人來說事實上在之前已經引起了非常多的討論跟爭議其實很多人也很擔心就連我辦公室的助理都提醒我"},{"start":290.652,"end":304.564,"text":"委員我的房屋租金補貼可能會沒有還有要生孩子的也會擔心相關的育兒津貼還有孩子們上學的很多費用這些光是在兒少議題或是年輕人的議題我們其實就已經因為這個預算的亂象讓國人非常擔心"},{"start":308.727,"end":335.137,"text":"所以我看到院長之前您有公開說有機會你願意下降向國人說明到底行政院至愛難行的地方是什麼跟每一個國人日常生活影響的事項又會有哪些我覺得這件事情真的真的非常重要我們在推動民主教育的過程我們在意的是實質的討論針對內容的討論然後彼此意見做交流然後因為彼此利益最大化我們做出一些妥協"},{"start":335.917,"end":364.531,"text":"這是民主教育這是政治政治這是民主自由我想要請院長說一下後續在下鄉規劃的部分我們行政院這邊會有什麼樣的態度跟作為我們如何讓國人放心或者是我們如何透過這個下鄉的議題讓更多在野黨的委員真的願意相信他們自己做錯了事情他們亂刪減預算然後甚至提出非常多荒謬的理由作為刪減預算的理由這個真的是非常的荒謬"},{"start":365.111,"end":391.469,"text":"可不可以請院長說明一下後續的規劃謝謝委員如果中央政府總預算以及財發法的復議案都能夠成立我們重新來審視的話我們會去跟人民講說我們如何推動地方建設包括我們的六大區域的產業生活計畫圈以及我們140項的地方建設以及我們現在推出的在經濟發展委員會當中所有重大決議的決議事項那如果才"},{"start":392.537,"end":418.897,"text":"沒有辦法達到這樣子我們也要去告訴人民說今天我們就是有了一部沒有油沒有輪胎的車子不要說我們不會開車我們希望把油把輪胎補上去就像我們問了一個媽媽說你去買菜為什麼今天花的比昨天多的錢媽媽會說我今天多買了一隻雞兩條魚那就是有道理我們多花了那麼多的兩千八百零六億的新增預算但是很多的委員是視而不見故意不談"},{"start":420.083,"end":445.326,"text":"故意把它疏漏就說我們編了一個最大的預算最高額的預算我覺得這個對我們所有的行政部會首長官員所有的公務人員是極端極端的不公平我們也必須向人民說這樣的訴求希望未來我們有機會提出一個合理的財化法的版本能夠重新讓大院來審議之後中央地方財政能夠更健全更均衡的發展同時對於總預算如果沒有辦法透過今天的復讐的話"},{"start":446.147,"end":473.652,"text":"未來我們要尋求各種的方式來讓我們的業務還是要推動該服務人民的該國家發展的該提倡國防的我們一概都不會省下來好 謝謝院長提到了各個面向的困境我想要跟院長分享一下我們在做相關財化法爭議的研究的時候我們來看一下頭影片再下一張 再下一張我想要到好 這個我認為立法院當時的很多討論其實是流於形式我想這個爭議院長都非常清楚來看下一張"},{"start":475.441,"end":496.461,"text":"其實我最擔心的是因為沒有日出條款其實很多地方政府已經站出來了才化法的這個錢看起來好像到縣市政府變多但他們認為為蒙其利先受其害如同我最近剛剛任陽的金門跟馬祖的選區其實馬祖縣的縣長已經在第一時間站出來說他其實擔心的部分更多"},{"start":497.162,"end":521.238,"text":"他們自己的試算其實少了好幾億從中央來的錢也就是財化法實施之後其實馬祖連江縣還有金門還有澎湖可能其實並不會真的只是因為錢變多但他們認為其實會有很多的問題院長你怎麼看這個財化法如果到現在的這個新修正的版本他一個最大的問題也就是會讓城鄉差距拉大比方說"},{"start":522.455,"end":538.062,"text":"人口多的工商發達的他因為權重的比計算他會比較多那一般的縣市也會增加但比例上就沒有那麼多但是一般本來財政狀況沒有那麼好的可能會因為這樣超過他整個的預算數"},{"start":539.088,"end":561.774,"text":"稅出數這個將來在執行上可能會發生很多法律上的問題所以我是覺得這個才法如此這樣的貿然的實施下去這決然就是一個非常不明智的行為所以像現在他到底什麼時候開始能夠生效當然總統公告後生效但是又到明年才要開始生效那這段時間我們就是"},{"start":562.588,"end":581.188,"text":"要遵照這個財發法嗎還是到明年那今年的預算基本上我們不會受到影響今年2025年的中央政策總統不會受到影響但是現在我們開始編的財發法就會受到他的箝制那我們的空間就非常小對地方造成的困難也會很多城鄉差距會明顯的擴大"},{"start":581.909,"end":597.792,"text":"我們來看一下投影片 謝謝部長部長先不用離開 謝謝投影片下一張好 這個是剛剛前面傅坤祺總召他所用的投影片他說 財化法把錢送到地方去這些事情通通由地方來承擔他認為地方可以承擔起"},{"start":598.152,"end":617.882,"text":"更多照顧老人健保老人假牙小孩0到6歲國家養重養禮金的分配還有全民防災保險他說這些由通通由地方政府來做但是如果我的認知沒有錯的話其實現在在這個投影片上是他早上自己才用的這個投影片上目前有很多的經費其實是由中央來補助尤其是0到6歲國家養"},{"start":619.904,"end":639.865,"text":"從來都不是地方政府主要的財政支出再更不要說的是很多老人假牙的補助其實是中央政府透過縣市政府的方案去協助地方上的長者去做假牙的補助還有崇洋禮金甚至公立高中收回由地方政府負責當他們喊出這樣的話的時候我其實非常非常的擔心"},{"start":640.365,"end":648.945,"text":"要嘛就是傅坤祺總召他在擔任縣長期間他從來真的都不知道這些錢是中央給的要嘛就是他刻意製造假訊息"},{"start":649.966,"end":669.812,"text":"或者是他根本是在混淆地方的鄉親讓鄉親誤以為當才化法新法實施之後地方鄉親真的可以因為這一大筆錢然後生活會變得更好假牙也好0到6歲國家養也好全部通通丟給縣政府看起來他是要做這樣的承諾但是站在地方上的立場會不會未來"},{"start":671.252,"end":700.078,"text":"他們又認為錢不夠花或是他們沒有好的監督機制他們又回過頭來跟中央要錢然後又拍桌大罵說民進黨中央政府不支持花蓮的發展不支持花蓮的交通不支持花蓮的老人我不知道這樣的巨馬會不會一再一再的上演我非常非常的擔心我想要請院長或是主計總長或是財政部長跟我們說明我們對於地方政府的財政自主管理監督能力有非常的擔心在花蓮我們甚至看到更多荒謬的事情"},{"start":701.035,"end":720.044,"text":"我們很擔心這種跨縣市跨年度的連續性的工程預算將來很可能就會造成在執行上四倍公辦好 院長 容我打個唱我手上這個袋子是來自於花蓮上面印著傅坤祺總召還有徐政衛縣長這個我不知道院長有沒有看過"},{"start":725.012,"end":740.18,"text":"應該沒看過啦我看過很多類似的背面不要忘了還要宣傳珍愛花蓮徐州味的珍我再說一次我現在沒有辦法確定這個由縣政府的活動上所發出來的這個袋子"},{"start":740.58,"end":757.861,"text":"他的經費來源到底是來自所謂中央補助還是地方自籌款也就是地方自己的財政收入我剛說的擔心就是來自於這件事情如果地方縣市首長為了自己的政治紅利不斷做出這種不受財政紀律沒有自己紀律的規劃像這種"},{"start":759.683,"end":786.619,"text":"贈品我不知道未來地方財政的困難會有多麼的劇烈然後他們會不會繼續來這裡跟院長您拍桌告訴中央說民進黨都沒有照顧地方民進黨都沒有照顧花蓮我非常擔心院長這個袋子會後如果你想要我可以送給你當然不知道這個製作的背後是怎麼樣但是無論中央跟地方政府的預算都應該放在國家的發展而不應該強調家庭的美滿"},{"start":788.052,"end":810.43,"text":"我想國家的發展或是家庭的美滿是每一個人都很在意的事情但是一旦相關的財政紀律沒有建立相關的自我監督的功能不夠完善其實很多地方議員也都開始提出提醒如同我剛剛說的甚至連江縣的縣長他自己也都提出提醒所以是不是可以請部長您說明一下我們到底該怎麼辦去面對後續的財化法的這個亂象"},{"start":811.371,"end":831.177,"text":"這一次三讀通過確實把中央的大筆的一個稅款以及一般性補助款又不可以減少的情況下劃到地方去這個部分要特別強調財政紀律一定要遵守第二個部分因為這樣的大幅裁員的一個結構的改變會讓中央在未來在調記地方財政營區上的空間大為縮減"},{"start":832.759,"end":857.573,"text":"那部分它的發展比較緩慢的地方它正需要中央來給予更多的一個財政資源的時候反而變成沒有資源來協助發展比較慢的地方政府可以獲得中央的一個財政資源相對的發展比較快的它的稅收豐富的在這一次的財化法的一個水平分配的公式上它卻能夠分配更多的財政資源這個就是剛剛院長所說的造成財政資源"},{"start":858.854,"end":882.806,"text":"整個一個調製財政營需的財化法的立法目的以及均衡地方的發展完全失去了這樣的一個立法的意志這一次的修法確實有這樣很大的問題部長我用白話講給一般的鄉親聽我可以說原本就已經有城鄉差距文化資源不足的地方可能會因為這一次財化法修法之後顯得更加的困難擴大城鄉差距我可以下這樣的結論嗎"},{"start":883.866,"end":910.812,"text":"是的確實讓更稅收更多的分到更多的錢而相對的稅收少的卻沒有能夠得到比較好的一個財政資源好所以我想我們就停在這邊還有一些些時間所以剛剛院長您說的您會下箱宣講我覺得這件事情真的非常的重要不管您會到哪一些縣市去我都希望不管是資源豐富的縣市或者是為過去因為有城鄉差距的縣市我認為他們都需要行政院告訴他們新版財化法還有中央政府總預算案"},{"start":911.272,"end":927.067,"text":"在復議都沒有通過之後我們到底會發生什麼事情我認為人民有知的權利而不能放任藍白立委在立法院亂搞造成人民名不良聲以上要拜託院長 拜託所有的相關部會首長我們一起跟人民說明 好嗎好 謝謝陳培宇委員的詢問"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":482,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（10時34分）謝謝韓院長，有請行政院卓院長，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：院長早安。我們先來看第一張投影片，院長，我對於昨天這個畫面感到非常、非常、非常的遺憾，遺憾的原因是我們所有的部會首長被叫到您現在所在位置的後方，但是質詢他們的傅崐萁總召並沒有給這些部長、首長好好的說明。預算增加的原因到底是什麼，他只談數字，他不談實質內容。就像我們小的時候，面對考試分數考得不夠好，如果爸爸媽媽只問我們為什麼考不好，不問我們原因就處罰我們一頓，我認為我昨天看到的就是像這樣子的畫面。","我可不可以拜託院長花一些時間讓我們知道，尤其是我自己，不管是之前在教育及文化委員會兩年或是接下來要到司法及法制委員會，都會有非常多的議題跟兒少有關，所以我真的想要拜託院長，可不可以花一點時間讓我們知道，請問在相關預算的亂象之後，到底會發生什麼樣的事情？或者部會增加的這些預算在實質上到底是為了哪些事情？謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。雖然在立法院裡的詢答過程，沒有禁止很多官員在這裡排排站，讓一位委員在那邊質詢，但有好幾次我都很感謝韓院長，能夠讓後面不要排很多的官員，然而昨天確實發生了數次這樣的狀況，而且質詢的內容是非常取巧的，只問官員，部會有沒有增加預算，比去年多還是少？當我們的首長說「多」，這個詢答就結束了。但應該要問為什麼會多？是多在哪裡？","如果我用同樣的方式詢問委員，立法院今年的預算有沒有比去年多？也是多啊！預算書上就多了1.1億，但是多在哪裡？就要去看它多在哪裡、多的有沒有道理。它就是多在「國會交流事務」，光是這一項就多了2,500萬。這個有沒有意義？如果有意義，那個多就是有意義的。所以昨天的質詢應該是，你這個部會的預算有沒有比去年多？如果有，又為什麼多？因為我們有2,800億的新增項目，都散布在各個部會。如果這個部會因為它的新增項目多了一些預算，所以比去年多，難道不應該嗎？難道所有的部會都要下降嗎？所以這是一個非常取巧的質詢方式，讓首長沒有辦法充分地說明。而且更嚴重的是，這些被刪減、凍結的預算，我們一再強調，它都是集中在特定機關、特定項目當中，把一個機關的業務費全部刪掉，把出國旅費凍結50%、60%、80%，就好比一部車子，你換了一部比較大的車子，但是立法院不給你油錢，或是把你扣掉一個輪子，這個車子再大、再好還是不能開，所以我們就是在這個情況底下，讓整個政府動彈不得。","同時，對於不能流用的這件事情，我們都曾經記得，蔣經國前院長在這裡說，買醋的錢不能買醬油，買醬油的錢不能買醋，他今天是要我們把買醋、買醬油的錢都拿去買水嗎？不可能啊！所以不能流用。未來在追加預算的情況底下，它會在時間上，以及執行上造成很大的不可能。","昨天我是很遺憾，用這種取巧的問答方式讓問題提出來，答案卻沒有辦法讓首長充分說明，而且針對問題的重點，讓行政院真的無法動彈的理由是什麼，然後又礙於所謂追加預算的法規，沒有辦法做的事情要我們未來就循著這個來做，就是你來拜託我就可以做的意思，這絕對不是常態啦！"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝院長的說明，不過因為我們今天的時間有限，院長剛剛大概花了3分鐘的時間說明。我個人覺得，因為我們在立法院工作，我們知道預算出了問題，我們也在跟藍白共事的過程中，看到藍白有非常多荒謬的行為，所以身為立法委員約莫可以理解院長的意思，但我要說的是，對於一般的國人來說，事實上在之前已經引起了非常多的討論跟爭議。其實很多人也很擔心，就連我辦公室的助理都提醒我，委員，我的房屋租金補貼可能會沒有，還有要生孩子的也會擔心相關的育兒津貼，還有孩子們上學的很多費用，這些光是在兒少議題，或是年輕人的議題，我們其實就已經因為這個預算的亂象，讓國人非常擔心。","我看到院長之前有公開說，有機會你願意下鄉向國人說明，到底行政院窒礙難行的地方是什麼、會影響每一個國人日常生活的事項又會有哪些？我覺得這件事情真的非常重要。我們在推動民主教育的過程，我們在意的是實質的討論、針對內容的討論，然後交流彼此的意見，然後因為彼此利益最大化，我們作出一些妥協，這是民主教育、這是政治、這是民主自由。我想請院長說一下，後續在下鄉規劃的部分，行政院會有什麼樣的態度和作為，如何讓國人放心，或者是如何透過這個下鄉的議題讓更多在野黨的委員真的願意相信他們自己做錯了事情，他們亂刪減預算，甚至提出非常多荒謬的理由作為刪減預算的理由？這個真的是非常的荒謬！可不可以請院長說明一下後續的規劃？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。如果中央政府總預算以及財劃法的覆議案都能夠成立，我們重新來審視的話，我們會去跟人民講我們如何推動地方建設，包括六大區域的產業及生活計畫圈，以及140項的地方建設，以及現在推出的在經濟發展委員會當中所有的重大決議事項；如果沒有辦法達到這樣子，我們也要去告訴人民說，今天我們就是有了一部沒有油、沒有輪胎的車子，不要說我們不會開車，我們希望把油、把輪胎補上去，就像我們問一個媽媽，你去買菜，為什麼今天花的比昨天多的錢？媽媽會說，我今天多買了一隻雞、兩條魚，那就是有道理。","我們多花了2,806億的新增預算，但是很多的委員是視而不見，故意不談，故意把它疏漏，就說我們編了一個最大的預算、最高額的預算，我覺得這個對我們所有的行政部會首長、官員、所有的公務人員是極端極端的不公平！我們也必須向人民做這樣的訴求，希望未來我們有機會提出一個合理的財劃法版本，能夠重新讓大院來審議，之後中央地方財政能夠更健全、更均衡的發展。同時總預算如果沒有辦法通過今天的覆議的話，未來我們要尋求各種的方式讓我們的業務還是要推動，該服務人民的、該國家發展的、該提升國防的，我們一概都不會省下來。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝院長提到了各個面向的困境。","我想要跟院長分享一下，我們在做相關財劃法爭議的研究的時候，我認為立法院當時的很多討論其實是流於形式，我想這個爭議院長都非常清楚，其實我最擔心的是因為沒有日出條款，很多地方政府已經站出來了，財劃法的這個錢看起來好像到縣市政府變多，但他們認為未蒙其利，先受其害，如同我最近剛剛認養的金門和馬祖的選區，其實馬祖的縣長已經在第一時間站出來說，他擔心的部分更多，照他們自己的試算，其實少了好幾億從中央來的錢，也就是財劃法實施之後，馬祖（連江縣），還有金門、澎湖，可能並不會真的只是錢變多，他們認為其實會有很多的問題。院長，你怎麼看？"],["卓院長榮泰：財劃法如果照現在這個新修正的版本，它一個最大的問題也就是會讓城鄉差距拉大，比方人口多的、工商發達的因為權重比計算會比較多，一般的縣市也會增加，但比例上就沒有那麼多，至於一般本來財政狀況沒有那麼好的，可能會因為這樣超過他整個的預算數、歲出數，這個將來在執行上可能會發生很多法律上的問題，所以我是覺得這個財劃法如果這樣貿然的實施下去，決然就是一個非常不明智的行為！現在它到底什麼時候開始能夠生效，當然總統公告後生效，但是又要到明年才要開始生效，那這段時間我們要遵照這個財劃法嗎？還是到明年？今年的預算基本上不會受到影響，今年（2025年）的中央政府總預算不會受到影響，但是現在我們開始編的就會受到這個財劃法的箝制，那我們的空間就非常小，對地方造成的困難也會很多，城鄉差距會明顯的擴大。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長，部長先不用離開，謝謝。","我們來看一下投影片，這個是剛剛前面傅崐萁總召所用的投影片，他說財劃法把錢送到地方去，這些事情通通由地方來承擔，他認為地方可以承擔起更多照顧，老人健保、老人假牙、小孩0到6歲國家養、重陽禮金的分配，還有全民防災保險等，他說這些通通由地方政府來做，但是如果我的認知沒有錯的話，現在這個投影片是他早上自己才用的，這個投影片上目前有很多的經費其實是由中央來補助，尤其是0到6歲國家養，它從來都不是地方政府主要的財政支出，更不要說很多老人假牙的補助其實是中央政府透過縣市政府的方案去協助地方上的長者做假牙的補助，還有重陽禮金，甚至公立高中收回由地方政府負責，當他們喊出這樣的話的時候，我其實非常非常的擔心，要嘛就是傅崐萁總召他在擔任縣長期間，他真的從來都不知道這些錢是中央給的，要嘛就是他刻意製造假訊息，或者是他根本是在混淆地方的鄉親，讓鄉親誤以為當財劃法新法實施之後，地方鄉親真的可以因為這一大筆錢，生活會變得更好，假牙也好，0到6歲國家養也好，全部通通丟給縣政府，看起來他是要做這樣的承諾。但是站在地方上的立場，會不會未來他們又認為錢不夠花，或是他們沒有好的監督機制，他們又回過頭來跟中央要錢，然後又拍桌大罵說，民進黨中央政府不支持花蓮的發展、不支持花蓮的交通、不支持花蓮的老人。我不知道這樣的劇碼會不會一再一再的上演，我非常非常的擔心，我想要請院長或是主計總長或是財政部長跟我們說明，我們對於地方政府的財政自主、管理監督能力非常的擔心，在花蓮我們甚至看到更多荒謬的事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們很擔心這種跨縣市、跨年度的連續性工程預算，將來很可能就會造成在執行上事倍功半。"],["陳委員培瑜：院長，容我打個岔，我手上這個袋子是來自於花蓮，上面印著傅崐萁總召還有徐榛蔚縣長，我不知道院長有沒有看過，應該沒看過啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我看過很多類似的。"],["陳委員培瑜：背面不要忘了還要宣傳「臻愛花蓮」，徐榛蔚的「臻」。我再說一次，我現在沒有辦法確定這個由縣政府的活動上所發出來的袋子，它的經費來源到底是來自所謂中央補助，還是地方自籌款（也就是地方自己的財政收入），我剛剛說的擔心就是來自於這件事情，如果地方縣市首長為了自己的政治紅利，不斷做出這種不受財政紀律，沒有自己紀律的規劃，像這種贈品，我不知道未來地方財政的困難會有多麼的劇烈，然後他們會不會繼續來這裡跟院長您拍桌，告訴中央說，民進黨都沒有照顧地方、民進黨都沒有照顧花蓮，我非常擔心。院長，這個袋子會後如果你想要，我可以送給你。"],["卓院長榮泰：我當然不知道這個製作的背後是怎麼樣，但是無論中央跟地方，政府的預算都應該放在國家的發展，而不應該強調家庭的美滿。"],["陳委員培瑜：我想，國家的發展或是家庭的美滿是每一個人都很在意的事情，但是一旦相關的財政紀律沒有建立、相關的自我監督的功能不夠完善，其實很多地方議員也都開始提出提醒，如同我剛剛說，甚至連江縣的縣長自己都提出提醒，所以是不是可以請部長您說明一下，我們到底該怎麼辦，去面對後續財劃法的這個亂象？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員說明，這一次三讀通過，確實把中央大筆的稅款，以及一般性補助款又不可以減少的情況下，劃到地方去，這個部分要特別強調，財政紀律一定要遵守。第二個部分，因為這樣大幅財源結構的改變，會讓中央未來在調劑地方財政盈虛的空間大為縮減，部分發展比較緩慢的地方，它正需要中央來給予更多財政資源的時候，反而變成沒有資源來協助發展比較慢的地方政府可以獲得中央的財政資源；相對的，發展比較快的、它的稅收豐富的，在這一次財劃法水平分配的公式上，它卻能夠分配更多的財政資源，這個就是剛剛院長所說的，造成財政資源整個調劑財政盈虛的財劃法的立法目的以及均衡地方的發展，完全失去了這樣的立法意旨，這一次的修法確實有這樣很大的問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，我用白話文講給一般的鄉親聽，我可以說，原本就已經有城鄉差距、文化資源不足的地方，可能會因為這次財劃法修法之後，顯得更加的困難，擴大城鄉差距，我可以下這樣的結論嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，確實，讓稅收更多的分到更多的錢，而相對稅收少的，卻沒有能夠得到比較好的財政資源。"],["陳委員培瑜：我想我們就停在這邊，還有一些些時間，所以剛剛院長您說您會下鄉宣講，我覺得這件事情真的非常的重要，不管您會到哪一些縣市去，我都希望不管是資源豐富的縣市，或者是過去有城鄉差距的縣市，我認為他們都需要行政院告訴他們新版財劃法還有中央政府總預算案在覆議都沒有通過之後，我們到底會發生什麼事情。我認為人民有知的權利，而不能放任藍白立委在立法院亂搞，造成人民民不聊生，以上要拜託院長，還有拜託所有的相關部會首長，我們一起跟人民說明，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會忠實的向人民報告。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員的詢問，也謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長的答詢。","接下來我們請登記第6位林俊憲委員，請詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":344,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","傅崐萁","許宇甄","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","鍾佳濱","翁曉玲","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","林俊憲","王鴻薇","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","馬文君","陳亭妃","林思銘","賴瑞隆"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2025-03-12"],"gazette_id":"1142501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142501_00011","1142501_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第2次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"「財政收支劃分法」第八條、第十六條之一及第三十條條文覆議案","agenda_id":"1142501_00020"}}}