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危害了我們的社會安定影響到國家安全就撤銷了他的居留權這件事情不知道院長的看法是什麼因為這是首例啦這是大概有史以來第一例啦有這樣子的居留權被撤銷是 目前他的處理是撤銷他的居留權同時改以單次入出境的許可\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 40.683, \"end\": 40.883, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 40.883, \"end\": 41.724, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 41.724, \"end\": 42.404, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 42.404, \"end\": 42.604, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 42.604, \"end\": 42.784, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"勸\"}, {\"word\": \"阻\", \"start\": 42.784, \"end\": 43.085, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"無\", \"start\": 43.085, \"end\": 43.445, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"效\", \"start\": 43.445, \"end\": 43.685, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 43.685, \"end\": 43.825, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 43.825, \"end\": 44.005, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 44.005, \"end\": 44.265, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"移\", \"start\": 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{\"start\": 469.653, \"end\": 477.643, \"text\": \"所以我現在很懷疑你新的財化法你以為你從中央搶到多少錢可是中央原本給你的計畫行不住他一定會扣掉嘛這必然的啊\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 469.653, \"end\": 469.773, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 469.773, \"end\": 469.853, \"score\": 0.711}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 469.853, \"end\": 469.973, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 469.973, \"end\": 470.074, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 470.074, \"end\": 470.414, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"懷\"}, {\"word\": \"疑\", \"start\": 470.414, \"end\": 471.015, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 471.015, \"end\": 471.115, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 471.115, \"end\": 471.255, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 471.255, \"end\": 471.515, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 471.515, \"end\": 471.635, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 471.635, \"end\": 471.996, \"score\": 0.884}, 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{\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 926.716, \"end\": 926.997, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 926.997, \"end\": 927.157, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 927.157, \"end\": 927.358, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 927.358, \"end\": 927.378, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,005 --> 00:00:08,968\n好謝謝主席本席邀請我們行政院卓院長麻煩再請卓院長議員好院長好院長在進入我們今天主題財化法之前呢我想先請教院長\n\n2\n00:00:27,594 --> 00:00:38,973\n就是昨天啊移民署撤銷了一位中配網紅的居留權因為這位中配網紅啊經常性的在鼓勵武統\n\n3\n00:00:40,683 --> 00:01:10,082\n所以在經過多次勸阻無效之後啊移民署以他妨害危害了我們的社會安定影響到國家安全就撤銷了他的居留權這件事情不知道院長的看法是什麼因為這是首例啦這是大概有史以來第一例啦有這樣子的居留權被撤銷是目前他的處理是撤銷他的居留權同時改以單次入出境的許可\n\n4\n00:01:10,842 --> 00:01:26,474\n那我希望無論是在台灣任何的外國的配偶來到台灣組成一個家庭或是任何一親到台灣來的都要愛台灣這個土地跟人一親要愛他的親配偶要互相能夠遵守其實我們法律是有規範的是啊\n\n5\n00:01:27,236 --> 00:01:53,504\n你如果違反了例如妨礙社會安定影響到國家安全還有我們國家的立場相關的其他法律規定是可以撤銷他的居留權那這一件事怎麼做對以前是從來不執行的其實我覺得除了有善意的勸阻但也要有依法執行的魄力公權力一定要張揚出來這個在歐美很多國家也這樣子\n\n6\n00:01:54,554 --> 00:02:22,526\n有些發表極端言論的例如像伊斯蘭啊什麼極端言論的也都被歐美政府直接撤銷拘留或直接驅逐出境那台灣過去啦一直都是不敢處理這一塊啦都是忍耐啦勸阻啦那這一次大概是成為首例第一例我們依照我們相關法令規定它已經影響到我們社會的安定它已經整天的鼓勵於武統啦\n\n7\n00:02:23,916 --> 00:02:41,129\n散播一些幾乎是要破壞我們台灣主權立場的一些言論直接把它撤銷它的居留權我認為有第一例就有第二例這個相關的法令我們應該要依法執行但是這樣的一個決定\n\n8\n00:02:42,435 --> 00:02:57,956\n我覺得應該是院長你親自決定的吧我們很肯定內政部依照事實認定那請部長來說明一下現在跟未來我們的態度是謝謝委員的關心我們是根據事實來做認定因為這一位他在抖音上面\n\n9\n00:02:59,042 --> 00:03:25,791\n已經從去年五月到今年的一月都傳了很多影片譬如說他寫台灣永遠是中國的台灣兩岸終將統一也必然統一等等這些我想已經觸犯了台灣是一個主權國家以及觸犯了社會治安跟國家安全的底線那他又在辯論說這是他言論自由我想大家都知道言論自由絕對不是他所說的言論自由可以用武力統一台灣這樣子的字眼\n\n10\n00:03:27,264 --> 00:03:55,338\n好謝謝部長好那部長請回院長我們進入今天的主題就是財務法那昨天跟今天我們連續在這個地方院長也來報告那行政委提出複議關於總預算案和財務法我覺得藍白推這兩個法案同時推出來其實是個大笑話這根本是矛盾的總預算我們通過了那財務法\n\n11\n00:03:56,434 --> 00:04:22,049\n如果按照藍白的裁判法的內容那已經通過了總預算案怎麼辦你給地方的錢在總預算裡面都有了嘛對不對是那你現在又通過一個新的裁判法地方有多出了很多錢那你總預算案已經通過了那現在這個裁判法是什麼時候要開始實施因為他又沒有訂一個實施日期\n\n12\n00:04:23,063 --> 00:04:51,386\n他說公佈日就實施但是其中有一個規定就是有一個條款他是說你沒有第十四日期總統公告十天內公告公告後三天內就生效了嘛但當中他還是有一個條條文他是說已經照原來的財務法已經劃定的這個總預算的分配不會受到影響大概是這樣子條文怎麼可能不受影響不過這個就是從去年12月20號通過之後延到現在才送書\n\n13\n00:04:52,154 --> 00:05:11,601\n這是一種經過很精密的算法啦所以當然行政院要提復議啊是他才會給你拿那麼多錢丟到地方去那你怎麼去執行你總預算裡面規定中央該辦的事項我稍微算了一下啦我稍微算了一下我們總預算案有3.1兆啦\n\n14\n00:05:14,005 --> 00:05:42,067\n那原來啊舊版的裁判法我們給地方就大概4700多億這本來就有的啦那你新的裁判法又多拿走了3750億也就是說地方啊總共啊可以拿到8500億左右就是新的裁判法那麼中央剩下多少錢因為你有1.8兆是不能動的法定支出你不能動你大概剩下5000億\n\n15\n00:05:43,646 --> 00:06:09,726\n那這五千億啊請問啦國防要多少錢教育預算要多少錢國防教育大概就超過五千億啦那你其他的怎麼執行對不對現在地方的建設像捷運捷運台北也有啊桃園台中台南租屋補貼怎麼來育兒津貼怎麼來其他的一些中央開辦或補助的事項你怎麼執行\n\n16\n00:06:12,222 --> 00:06:38,819\n這個才化法還執行下去啊那你行政院絕對癱瘓所以我們一定提出複議提複議啦但是南白多數啦大概也複議通過的可能性很低啦所以我也希望行政院對於接下來該採取的步驟我相信院長應該也有所呼喚應該有所計畫了吧我們有最好的準備也有最壞的打算\n\n17\n00:06:41,627 --> 00:07:04,539\n現在可以宣布一下一切就是在合法合憲的範圍當中我們所能用的方式就是只有幾項而已我再來講因為國民黨常常說新的財務法給地方增加了很多的錢讓地方可以做很多的事情這根本是矛盾的因為第一個我用台南做例子\n\n18\n00:07:05,725 --> 00:07:08,828\n台南現在現況啦特別統籌款那13億一般補助款193億統籌分配款322億這個就是現況\n\n19\n00:07:19,977 --> 00:07:47,249\n但是現況之前還有一個計劃型補助也三百多億啦這兩個數字剛好一樣計劃型補助大概三百二十億然後新版的財劃法國民黨說台南多了一百六十三億但你怎麼可能呢你中央的錢哪裡來如果台南多了一百六十三億那中央一定會減少的就是計劃型補助嘛你會變得比較大的啊你錢就這樣而已\n\n20\n00:07:49,653 --> 00:07:57,643\n所以我現在很懷疑你新的財化法你以為你從中央搶到多少錢可是中央原本給你的計畫行不住他一定會扣掉嘛這必然的啊\n\n21\n00:08:00,814 --> 00:08:29,324\n那這一點的話就是為什麼以前在修財化法國民黨時候要修兩次2010年跟2012年馬政府時代國民黨在立法院絕對多數國民黨也要修財化法當時修財化法國民黨那時候還是必須把各縣市都找來請各縣市提出他的計畫需求等等開了很多次會兩次嘗試要修財化法馬政府都失敗了因為這個很複雜\n\n22\n00:08:30,894 --> 00:08:56,629\n這個一定要經過很多次的大家的協商討論馬政五時代都沒有辦法產生共識了連當時國民黨多數的立法院都不支持馬政五的版本更何況現在隨便立法院搞一搞就丟一個版本出來那你叫行政院怎麼執行我用台南來看台南原本的計畫性補助台南市拿來做什麼地方政府拿來做什麼地方政府都會拿去做長照\n\n23\n00:08:57,942 --> 00:09:25,212\n還有子女的教育補助啦托育補助啦還有一些像污水下水道啦育兒津貼以及未來的捷運這台南市既有的計劃型補助大概都拿來做這些事情那你現在新的財化法通過以後就慘了因為表面上好像台南多了一百六十幾億但你這些計劃型補助中央一定會砍掉啦必然啦\n\n24\n00:09:26,775 --> 00:09:32,558\n甚至你可能全部砍掉啊因為你中央光是國防教育兩筆錢弄完了你都沒錢啊那國家怎麼運轉所以這樣的裁判法啊各地方政府的意見都沒有進來跟委員報告兩件事情你剛說的馬總統時代在2012年地方整體的財政的短處是589億那經過這幾年\n\n25\n00:09:53,656 --> 00:10:12,333\n執政之後這幾年加強對地方的補助地方的財政在112年已經勝於高達648億整個是從負的變正的而且我們今年的總預算包括統籌分配稅款包括補助一般性補助計畫性補助給地方的超過一兆以上\n\n26\n00:10:13,532 --> 00:10:40,755\n這個是不用修裁判法就已經在做的只是想把它做得更精密但是現在的裁判法如果照現行的施行的話那結果絕對不是這樣子中央會完全削弱就是我剛算的那個表嘛就既有的中央給地方的補助款大概一年大概就4800億了就將近5000億了好那你現在國民黨弄的這個新版的裁判法公平嗎\n\n27\n00:10:41,766 --> 00:11:07,996\n台北市很有錢啊以後會更有錢啊台南台南大概是六都增加比例最低的啦那公平性我們來比較一下啦院長花蓮啊富坤崎的花蓮花蓮超24萬人口啦比本席的立委選區的人口數還要少啦但花蓮增加的補助館比台南市還多啦台南市還是直轄市喔台南市有180幾萬花蓮只有24萬啦彰化\n\n28\n00:11:10,899 --> 00:11:39,088\n台南的人口比彰化多60萬台南的面積是彰化的兩倍那彰化為什麼拿補助館比台南多台南還是直轄市彰化不是那給我一個理由啊你給我一個理由這根本講不出來嘛那公平性你看連江縣連江縣只有一萬三千個人一萬三千人啊他原本一年七億現在變三萬三億啊那為什麼拖出來要做什麼\n\n29\n00:11:40,962 --> 00:12:03,470\n這公平嗎而且每一個人的補助款比例高達23萬連江縣全國最高台南26000差了快10倍這就是水平分配上計算的權重比而且權重比院長講到重點權重比也不對台南市的南科已經產值高過竹科了\n\n30\n00:12:08,476 --> 00:12:36,786\n但是他計算啦這種經濟產值啊他是用繳稅的注射地啦所以蘭科那麼多大公司啊他全部繳稅都是在台北市嘛所以台北市拿了用這樣用這一點做計算的權值拿的錢就很多啦那但是地方政府咧第一個我們要提供土地勞力還有招商的努力還有各項基礎建設啊這完全不比計算這公平嗎\n\n31\n00:12:38,263 --> 00:12:56,684\n這樣怎麼公平就好像以前常說的你把煙囪都留在南部啊然後呢角色都在台北啊那你現在的財務法又按照這種公式下去計算那城鄉差距一定會越來越嚴重的嘛這是必然的嘛院長要補充嗎\n\n32\n00:12:58,052 --> 00:13:16,453\n是委員說的很適合對於這個水平分配的指標還有權重這是非常重要的應該要非常精細的一個來做設計跟來做處理所以財政部一直在這個部分做努力以及邀請各地方政府還有專家學者來討論所以我們會認為這個部分第一個你要考慮\n\n33\n00:13:17,394 --> 00:13:39,727\n每個地方的自然條件不同工商發展的條件不同而且人口的結構裡面65歲以上跟14歲以下的孩子的這一個需要政府的服務是更多這個都應該做不同的一個分配跟配置所以我們那天3月6號在開會的時候就有非常詳細的一個配置以及調整係數比如說65歲以上的人口跟14歲以下我們一點\n\n34\n00:13:40,307 --> 00:14:00,020\n一個人用1.2人來計算那另外土地面積也會對於農牧用地或是國土保安用地做不同的一個權重的一個調整這個是剛剛就如同委員所說這是非常重要而且還非常精細的來計算而不能只是把人口跟林立事業把它放得那麼大你權值基本上這個要跟各地方政府來談\n\n35\n00:14:01,545 --> 00:14:24,846\n像人口以外比如說你面積還有人口結構還有財政的努力地方政府也要自己做財政努力財政紀律才能對支出的結構還會不同像本期我不反對財化法修改但不能這樣亂改不能這樣亂修我想地方政府也很清楚你這樣\n\n36\n00:14:27,889 --> 00:14:55,029\n這樣後備台後備國啦通過這個採訪法那地方政府的計劃性補助中央一定拿不出來嘛對不對因為他排擠掉了一定會排擠掉吧怎麼可能原來的補助都不變然後又增加那麼多錢給地方那有可能啊你中央有錢要去哪裡我剛剛已經算給院長你同意了我算成那個數字吧你中央政府大概剩五千億啦你國防要多少錢\n\n37\n00:14:56,141 --> 00:15:22,386\n大概2400億教育大概2600億國防教育就超過5000億了那其他事情怎麼做所以我覺得院長還是要再往下一步計畫做好了呼籲不會過那我們行政院面對這樣的總預算裁判法行政院接下來要採取什麼步驟這個要準備好了我們會全力來\n\n38\n00:15:25,170 --> 00:15:27,378\n好謝謝林俊憲委員的詢問謝謝卓院長相關部會所長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4005\t8968\t好 謝謝主席 本席邀請我們行政院卓院長麻煩再請卓院長議員好院長好 院長在進入我們今天主題財化法之前呢 我想先請教院長\n27594\t38973\t就是昨天啊移民署撤銷了一位中配網紅的居留權因為這位中配網紅啊經常性的在鼓勵武統\n40683\t70082\t所以在經過多次勸阻無效之後啊移民署以他妨害 危害了我們的社會安定影響到國家安全就撤銷了他的居留權這件事情不知道院長的看法是什麼因為這是首例啦這是大概有史以來第一例啦有這樣子的居留權被撤銷是 目前他的處理是撤銷他的居留權同時改以單次入出境的許可\n70842\t86474\t那我希望無論是在台灣任何的外國的配偶來到台灣組成一個家庭或是任何一親到台灣來的都要愛台灣這個土地跟人一親要愛他的親配偶要互相能夠遵守其實我們法律是有規範的是啊\n87236\t113504\t你如果違反了例如妨礙社會安定影響到國家安全還有我們國家的立場相關的其他法律規定是可以撤銷他的居留權那這一件事怎麼做對 以前是從來不執行的其實我覺得除了有善意的勸阻但也要有依法執行的魄力公權力一定要張揚出來這個在歐美很多國家也這樣子\n114554\t142526\t有些發表極端言論的例如像伊斯蘭啊 什麼極端言論的也都被歐美政府直接撤銷拘留或直接驅逐出境那台灣過去啦一直都是不敢處理這一塊啦都是忍耐啦 勸阻啦那這一次大概是成為首例 第一例我們依照我們相關法令規定它已經影響到我們社會的安定它已經整天的鼓勵於武統啦\n143916\t161129\t散播一些幾乎是要破壞我們台灣主權立場的一些言論直接把它撤銷它的居留權我認為有第一例就有第二例這個相關的法令我們應該要依法執行但是這樣的一個決定\n162435\t177956\t我覺得應該是院長你親自決定的吧我們很肯定內政部依照事實認定那請部長來說明一下現在跟未來我們的態度是 謝謝委員的關心我們是根據事實來做認定因為這一位他在抖音上面\n179042\t205791\t已經從去年五月到今年的一月都傳了很多影片譬如說他寫台灣永遠是中國的台灣兩岸終將統一也必然統一等等這些我想已經觸犯了台灣是一個主權國家以及觸犯了社會治安跟國家安全的底線那他又在辯論說這是他言論自由我想大家都知道言論自由絕對不是他所說的言論自由可以用武力統一台灣這樣子的字眼\n207264\t235338\t好謝謝部長好那部長請回院長我們進入今天的主題就是財務法那昨天跟今天我們連續在這個地方院長也來報告那行政委提出複議關於總預算案和財務法我覺得藍白推這兩個法案同時推出來其實是個大笑話這根本是矛盾的總預算我們通過了那財務法\n236434\t262049\t如果按照藍白的裁判法的內容那已經通過了總預算案怎麼辦你給地方的錢在總預算裡面都有了嘛對不對是那你現在又通過一個新的裁判法地方有多出了很多錢那你總預算案已經通過了那現在這個裁判法是什麼時候要開始實施因為他又沒有訂一個實施日期\n263063\t291386\t他說公佈日就實施但是其中有一個規定就是有一個條款他是說你沒有第十四日期總統公告十天內公告公告後三天內就生效了嘛但當中他還是有一個條條文他是說已經照原來的財務法已經劃定的這個總預算的分配不會受到影響大概是這樣子條文怎麼可能不受影響不過這個就是從去年12月20號通過之後延到現在才送書\n292154\t311601\t這是一種經過很精密的算法啦所以當然行政院要提復議啊是他才會給你拿那麼多錢丟到地方去那你怎麼去執行你總預算裡面規定中央該辦的事項我稍微算了一下啦我稍微算了一下我們總預算案有3.1兆啦\n314005\t342067\t那原來啊舊版的裁判法我們給地方就大概4700多億這本來就有的啦那你新的裁判法又多拿走了3750億也就是說地方啊總共啊可以拿到8500億左右就是新的裁判法那麼中央剩下多少錢因為你有1.8兆是不能動的法定支出你不能動你大概剩下5000億\n343646\t369726\t那這五千億啊 請問啦 國防要多少錢教育預算要多少錢國防教育大概就超過五千億啦那你其他的怎麼執行 對不對現在地方的建設像捷運捷運台北也有啊 桃園 台中 台南租屋補貼怎麼來 育兒津貼怎麼來其他的一些中央開辦或補助的事項你怎麼執行\n372222\t398819\t這個才化法還執行下去啊那你行政院絕對癱瘓所以我們一定提出複議提複議啦但是南白多數啦大概也複議通過的可能性很低啦所以我也希望行政院對於接下來該採取的步驟我相信院長應該也有所呼喚應該有所計畫了吧我們有最好的準備也有最壞的打算\n401627\t424539\t現在可以宣布一下一切就是在合法合憲的範圍當中我們所能用的方式就是只有幾項而已我再來講因為國民黨常常說新的財務法給地方增加了很多的錢讓地方可以做很多的事情這根本是矛盾的因為第一個我用台南做例子\n425725\t428828\t台南現在現況啦特別統籌款那13億一般補助款193億統籌分配款322億這個就是現況\n439977\t467249\t但是現況之前還有一個計劃型補助也三百多億啦這兩個數字剛好一樣計劃型補助大概三百二十億然後新版的財劃法國民黨說台南多了一百六十三億但你怎麼可能呢你中央的錢哪裡來如果台南多了一百六十三億那中央一定會減少的就是計劃型補助嘛你會變得比較大的啊你錢就這樣而已\n469653\t477643\t所以我現在很懷疑你新的財化法你以為你從中央搶到多少錢可是中央原本給你的計畫行不住他一定會扣掉嘛這必然的啊\n480814\t509324\t那這一點的話就是為什麼以前在修財化法國民黨時候要修兩次2010年跟2012年馬政府時代國民黨在立法院絕對多數國民黨也要修財化法當時修財化法國民黨那時候還是必須把各縣市都找來請各縣市提出他的計畫需求等等開了很多次會兩次嘗試要修財化法馬政府都失敗了因為這個很複雜\n510894\t536629\t這個一定要經過很多次的大家的協商討論馬政五時代都沒有辦法產生共識了連當時國民黨多數的立法院都不支持馬政五的版本更何況現在隨便立法院搞一搞就丟一個版本出來那你叫行政院怎麼執行我用台南來看台南原本的計畫性補助台南市拿來做什麼地方政府拿來做什麼地方政府都會拿去做長照\n537942\t565212\t還有子女的教育補助啦 托育補助啦還有一些像污水下水道啦 育兒津貼以及未來的捷運這台南市既有的計劃型補助大概都拿來做這些事情那你現在新的財化法通過以後就慘了因為表面上好像台南多了一百六十幾億但你這些計劃型補助中央一定會砍掉啦 必然啦\n566775\t572558\t甚至你可能全部砍掉啊因為你中央光是國防教育兩筆錢弄完了你都沒錢啊那國家怎麼運轉所以這樣的裁判法啊各地方政府的意見都沒有進來跟委員報告兩件事情你剛說的馬總統時代在2012年地方整體的財政的短處是589億那經過這幾年\n593656\t612333\t執政之後這幾年加強對地方的補助地方的財政在112年已經勝於高達648億整個是從負的變正的而且我們今年的總預算包括統籌分配稅款包括補助 一般性補助 計畫性補助給地方的超過一兆以上\n613532\t640755\t這個是不用修裁判法就已經在做的只是想把它做得更精密但是現在的裁判法如果照現行的施行的話那結果絕對不是這樣子 中央會完全削弱就是我剛算的那個表嘛就既有的中央給地方的補助款大概一年大概就4800億了就將近5000億了好 那你現在國民黨弄的這個新版的裁判法公平嗎\n641766\t667996\t台北市很有錢啊以後會更有錢啊台南 台南大概是六都增加比例最低的啦那公平性我們來比較一下啦 院長花蓮啊 富坤崎的花蓮花蓮超24萬人口啦比本席的立委選區的人口數還要少啦但花蓮增加的補助館比台南市還多啦台南市還是直轄市喔台南市有180幾萬 花蓮只有24萬啦彰化\n670899\t699088\t台南的人口比彰化多60萬台南的面積是彰化的兩倍那彰化為什麼拿補助館比台南多台南還是直轄市彰化不是那給我一個理由啊你給我一個理由這根本講不出來嘛那公平性你看連江縣連江縣只有一萬三千個人一萬三千人啊他原本一年七億現在變三萬三億啊那為什麼拖出來要做什麼\n700962\t723470\t這公平嗎 而且每一個人的補助款比例高達23萬連江縣全國最高 台南26000差了快10倍這就是水平分配上計算的權重比而且權重比 院長講到重點 權重比也不對台南市的南科已經產值高過竹科了\n728476\t756786\t但是他計算啦這種經濟產值啊他是用繳稅的注射地啦所以蘭科那麼多大公司啊他全部繳稅都是在台北市嘛所以台北市拿了用這樣用這一點做計算的權值拿的錢就很多啦那但是地方政府咧第一個我們要提供土地勞力還有招商的努力還有各項基礎建設啊這完全不比計算這公平嗎\n758263\t776684\t這樣怎麼公平就好像以前常說的你把煙囪都留在南部啊然後呢角色都在台北啊那你現在的財務法又按照這種公式下去計算那城鄉差距一定會越來越嚴重的嘛這是必然的嘛院長要補充嗎\n778052\t796453\t是委員說的很適合對於這個水平分配的指標還有權重這是非常重要的應該要非常精細的一個來做設計跟來做處理所以財政部一直在這個部分做努力以及邀請各地方政府還有專家學者來討論所以我們會認為這個部分第一個你要考慮\n797394\t819727\t每個地方的自然條件不同工商發展的條件不同而且人口的結構裡面65歲以上跟14歲以下的孩子的這一個需要政府的服務是更多這個都應該做不同的一個分配跟配置所以我們那天3月6號在開會的時候就有非常詳細的一個配置以及調整係數比如說65歲以上的人口跟14歲以下我們一點\n820307\t840020\t一個人用1.2人來計算那另外土地面積也會對於農牧用地或是國土保安用地做不同的一個權重的一個調整這個是剛剛就如同委員所說這是非常重要而且還非常精細的來計算而不能只是把人口跟林立事業把它放得那麼大你權值基本上這個要跟各地方政府來談\n841545\t864846\t像人口以外比如說你面積還有人口結構還有財政的努力地方政府也要自己做財政努力財政紀律才能對 支出的結構還會不同像本期我不反對財化法修改但不能這樣亂改不能這樣亂修我想地方政府也很清楚你這樣\n867889\t895029\t這樣後備台後備國啦通過這個採訪法那地方政府的計劃性補助中央一定拿不出來嘛對不對因為他排擠掉了一定會排擠掉吧怎麼可能原來的補助都不變然後又增加那麼多錢給地方那有可能啊你中央有錢要去哪裡我剛剛已經算給院長你同意了我算成那個數字吧你中央政府大概剩五千億啦你國防要多少錢\n896141\t922386\t大概2400億教育大概2600億國防教育就超過5000億了那其他事情怎麼做所以我覺得院長還是要再往下一步計畫做好了呼籲不會過那我們行政院面對這樣的總預算裁判法行政院接下來要採取什麼步驟這個要準備好了我們會全力來\n925170\t927378\t好 謝謝林俊憲委員的詢問謝謝卓院長 相關部會所長\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 本席邀請我們行政院卓院長麻煩再請卓院長議員好院長好 院長在進入我們今天主題財化法之前呢 我想先請教院長\n就是昨天啊移民署撤銷了一位中配網紅的居留權因為這位中配網紅啊經常性的在鼓勵武統\n所以在經過多次勸阻無效之後啊移民署以他妨害 危害了我們的社會安定影響到國家安全就撤銷了他的居留權這件事情不知道院長的看法是什麼因為這是首例啦這是大概有史以來第一例啦有這樣子的居留權被撤銷是 目前他的處理是撤銷他的居留權同時改以單次入出境的許可\n那我希望無論是在台灣任何的外國的配偶來到台灣組成一個家庭或是任何一親到台灣來的都要愛台灣這個土地跟人一親要愛他的親配偶要互相能夠遵守其實我們法律是有規範的是啊\n你如果違反了例如妨礙社會安定影響到國家安全還有我們國家的立場相關的其他法律規定是可以撤銷他的居留權那這一件事怎麼做對 以前是從來不執行的其實我覺得除了有善意的勸阻但也要有依法執行的魄力公權力一定要張揚出來這個在歐美很多國家也這樣子\n有些發表極端言論的例如像伊斯蘭啊 什麼極端言論的也都被歐美政府直接撤銷拘留或直接驅逐出境那台灣過去啦一直都是不敢處理這一塊啦都是忍耐啦 勸阻啦那這一次大概是成為首例 第一例我們依照我們相關法令規定它已經影響到我們社會的安定它已經整天的鼓勵於武統啦\n散播一些幾乎是要破壞我們台灣主權立場的一些言論直接把它撤銷它的居留權我認為有第一例就有第二例這個相關的法令我們應該要依法執行但是這樣的一個決定\n我覺得應該是院長你親自決定的吧我們很肯定內政部依照事實認定那請部長來說明一下現在跟未來我們的態度是 謝謝委員的關心我們是根據事實來做認定因為這一位他在抖音上面\n已經從去年五月到今年的一月都傳了很多影片譬如說他寫台灣永遠是中國的台灣兩岸終將統一也必然統一等等這些我想已經觸犯了台灣是一個主權國家以及觸犯了社會治安跟國家安全的底線那他又在辯論說這是他言論自由我想大家都知道言論自由絕對不是他所說的言論自由可以用武力統一台灣這樣子的字眼\n好謝謝部長好那部長請回院長我們進入今天的主題就是財務法那昨天跟今天我們連續在這個地方院長也來報告那行政委提出複議關於總預算案和財務法我覺得藍白推這兩個法案同時推出來其實是個大笑話這根本是矛盾的總預算我們通過了那財務法\n如果按照藍白的裁判法的內容那已經通過了總預算案怎麼辦你給地方的錢在總預算裡面都有了嘛對不對是那你現在又通過一個新的裁判法地方有多出了很多錢那你總預算案已經通過了那現在這個裁判法是什麼時候要開始實施因為他又沒有訂一個實施日期\n他說公佈日就實施但是其中有一個規定就是有一個條款他是說你沒有第十四日期總統公告十天內公告公告後三天內就生效了嘛但當中他還是有一個條條文他是說已經照原來的財務法已經劃定的這個總預算的分配不會受到影響大概是這樣子條文怎麼可能不受影響不過這個就是從去年12月20號通過之後延到現在才送書\n這是一種經過很精密的算法啦所以當然行政院要提復議啊是他才會給你拿那麼多錢丟到地方去那你怎麼去執行你總預算裡面規定中央該辦的事項我稍微算了一下啦我稍微算了一下我們總預算案有3.1兆啦\n那原來啊舊版的裁判法我們給地方就大概4700多億這本來就有的啦那你新的裁判法又多拿走了3750億也就是說地方啊總共啊可以拿到8500億左右就是新的裁判法那麼中央剩下多少錢因為你有1.8兆是不能動的法定支出你不能動你大概剩下5000億\n那這五千億啊 請問啦 國防要多少錢教育預算要多少錢國防教育大概就超過五千億啦那你其他的怎麼執行 對不對現在地方的建設像捷運捷運台北也有啊 桃園 台中 台南租屋補貼怎麼來 育兒津貼怎麼來其他的一些中央開辦或補助的事項你怎麼執行\n這個才化法還執行下去啊那你行政院絕對癱瘓所以我們一定提出複議提複議啦但是南白多數啦大概也複議通過的可能性很低啦所以我也希望行政院對於接下來該採取的步驟我相信院長應該也有所呼喚應該有所計畫了吧我們有最好的準備也有最壞的打算\n現在可以宣布一下一切就是在合法合憲的範圍當中我們所能用的方式就是只有幾項而已我再來講因為國民黨常常說新的財務法給地方增加了很多的錢讓地方可以做很多的事情這根本是矛盾的因為第一個我用台南做例子\n台南現在現況啦特別統籌款那13億一般補助款193億統籌分配款322億這個就是現況\n但是現況之前還有一個計劃型補助也三百多億啦這兩個數字剛好一樣計劃型補助大概三百二十億然後新版的財劃法國民黨說台南多了一百六十三億但你怎麼可能呢你中央的錢哪裡來如果台南多了一百六十三億那中央一定會減少的就是計劃型補助嘛你會變得比較大的啊你錢就這樣而已\n所以我現在很懷疑你新的財化法你以為你從中央搶到多少錢可是中央原本給你的計畫行不住他一定會扣掉嘛這必然的啊\n那這一點的話就是為什麼以前在修財化法國民黨時候要修兩次2010年跟2012年馬政府時代國民黨在立法院絕對多數國民黨也要修財化法當時修財化法國民黨那時候還是必須把各縣市都找來請各縣市提出他的計畫需求等等開了很多次會兩次嘗試要修財化法馬政府都失敗了因為這個很複雜\n這個一定要經過很多次的大家的協商討論馬政五時代都沒有辦法產生共識了連當時國民黨多數的立法院都不支持馬政五的版本更何況現在隨便立法院搞一搞就丟一個版本出來那你叫行政院怎麼執行我用台南來看台南原本的計畫性補助台南市拿來做什麼地方政府拿來做什麼地方政府都會拿去做長照\n還有子女的教育補助啦 托育補助啦還有一些像污水下水道啦 育兒津貼以及未來的捷運這台南市既有的計劃型補助大概都拿來做這些事情那你現在新的財化法通過以後就慘了因為表面上好像台南多了一百六十幾億但你這些計劃型補助中央一定會砍掉啦 必然啦\n甚至你可能全部砍掉啊因為你中央光是國防教育兩筆錢弄完了你都沒錢啊那國家怎麼運轉所以這樣的裁判法啊各地方政府的意見都沒有進來跟委員報告兩件事情你剛說的馬總統時代在2012年地方整體的財政的短處是589億那經過這幾年\n執政之後這幾年加強對地方的補助地方的財政在112年已經勝於高達648億整個是從負的變正的而且我們今年的總預算包括統籌分配稅款包括補助 一般性補助 計畫性補助給地方的超過一兆以上\n這個是不用修裁判法就已經在做的只是想把它做得更精密但是現在的裁判法如果照現行的施行的話那結果絕對不是這樣子 中央會完全削弱就是我剛算的那個表嘛就既有的中央給地方的補助款大概一年大概就4800億了就將近5000億了好 那你現在國民黨弄的這個新版的裁判法公平嗎\n台北市很有錢啊以後會更有錢啊台南 台南大概是六都增加比例最低的啦那公平性我們來比較一下啦 院長花蓮啊 富坤崎的花蓮花蓮超24萬人口啦比本席的立委選區的人口數還要少啦但花蓮增加的補助館比台南市還多啦台南市還是直轄市喔台南市有180幾萬 花蓮只有24萬啦彰化\n台南的人口比彰化多60萬台南的面積是彰化的兩倍那彰化為什麼拿補助館比台南多台南還是直轄市彰化不是那給我一個理由啊你給我一個理由這根本講不出來嘛那公平性你看連江縣連江縣只有一萬三千個人一萬三千人啊他原本一年七億現在變三萬三億啊那為什麼拖出來要做什麼\n這公平嗎 而且每一個人的補助款比例高達23萬連江縣全國最高 台南26000差了快10倍這就是水平分配上計算的權重比而且權重比 院長講到重點 權重比也不對台南市的南科已經產值高過竹科了\n但是他計算啦這種經濟產值啊他是用繳稅的注射地啦所以蘭科那麼多大公司啊他全部繳稅都是在台北市嘛所以台北市拿了用這樣用這一點做計算的權值拿的錢就很多啦那但是地方政府咧第一個我們要提供土地勞力還有招商的努力還有各項基礎建設啊這完全不比計算這公平嗎\n這樣怎麼公平就好像以前常說的你把煙囪都留在南部啊然後呢角色都在台北啊那你現在的財務法又按照這種公式下去計算那城鄉差距一定會越來越嚴重的嘛這是必然的嘛院長要補充嗎\n是委員說的很適合對於這個水平分配的指標還有權重這是非常重要的應該要非常精細的一個來做設計跟來做處理所以財政部一直在這個部分做努力以及邀請各地方政府還有專家學者來討論所以我們會認為這個部分第一個你要考慮\n每個地方的自然條件不同工商發展的條件不同而且人口的結構裡面65歲以上跟14歲以下的孩子的這一個需要政府的服務是更多這個都應該做不同的一個分配跟配置所以我們那天3月6號在開會的時候就有非常詳細的一個配置以及調整係數比如說65歲以上的人口跟14歲以下我們一點\n一個人用1.2人來計算那另外土地面積也會對於農牧用地或是國土保安用地做不同的一個權重的一個調整這個是剛剛就如同委員所說這是非常重要而且還非常精細的來計算而不能只是把人口跟林立事業把它放得那麼大你權值基本上這個要跟各地方政府來談\n像人口以外比如說你面積還有人口結構還有財政的努力地方政府也要自己做財政努力財政紀律才能對 支出的結構還會不同像本期我不反對財化法修改但不能這樣亂改不能這樣亂修我想地方政府也很清楚你這樣\n這樣後備台後備國啦通過這個採訪法那地方政府的計劃性補助中央一定拿不出來嘛對不對因為他排擠掉了一定會排擠掉吧怎麼可能原來的補助都不變然後又增加那麼多錢給地方那有可能啊你中央有錢要去哪裡我剛剛已經算給院長你同意了我算成那個數字吧你中央政府大概剩五千億啦你國防要多少錢\n大概2400億教育大概2600億國防教育就超過5000億了那其他事情怎麼做所以我覺得院長還是要再往下一步計畫做好了呼籲不會過那我們行政院面對這樣的總預算裁判法行政院接下來要採取什麼步驟這個要準備好了我們會全力來\n好 謝謝林俊憲委員的詢問謝謝卓院長 相關部會所長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.005 --> 00:08.968\n好謝謝主席本席邀請我們行政院卓院長麻煩再請卓院長議員好院長好院長在進入我們今天主題財化法之前呢我想先請教院長\n\n00:27.594 --> 00:38.973\n就是昨天啊移民署撤銷了一位中配網紅的居留權因為這位中配網紅啊經常性的在鼓勵武統\n\n00:40.683 --> 01:10.082\n所以在經過多次勸阻無效之後啊移民署以他妨害危害了我們的社會安定影響到國家安全就撤銷了他的居留權這件事情不知道院長的看法是什麼因為這是首例啦這是大概有史以來第一例啦有這樣子的居留權被撤銷是目前他的處理是撤銷他的居留權同時改以單次入出境的許可\n\n01:10.842 --> 01:26.474\n那我希望無論是在台灣任何的外國的配偶來到台灣組成一個家庭或是任何一親到台灣來的都要愛台灣這個土地跟人一親要愛他的親配偶要互相能夠遵守其實我們法律是有規範的是啊\n\n01:27.236 --> 01:53.504\n你如果違反了例如妨礙社會安定影響到國家安全還有我們國家的立場相關的其他法律規定是可以撤銷他的居留權那這一件事怎麼做對以前是從來不執行的其實我覺得除了有善意的勸阻但也要有依法執行的魄力公權力一定要張揚出來這個在歐美很多國家也這樣子\n\n01:54.554 --> 02:22.526\n有些發表極端言論的例如像伊斯蘭啊什麼極端言論的也都被歐美政府直接撤銷拘留或直接驅逐出境那台灣過去啦一直都是不敢處理這一塊啦都是忍耐啦勸阻啦那這一次大概是成為首例第一例我們依照我們相關法令規定它已經影響到我們社會的安定它已經整天的鼓勵於武統啦\n\n02:23.916 --> 02:41.129\n散播一些幾乎是要破壞我們台灣主權立場的一些言論直接把它撤銷它的居留權我認為有第一例就有第二例這個相關的法令我們應該要依法執行但是這樣的一個決定\n\n02:42.435 --> 02:57.956\n我覺得應該是院長你親自決定的吧我們很肯定內政部依照事實認定那請部長來說明一下現在跟未來我們的態度是謝謝委員的關心我們是根據事實來做認定因為這一位他在抖音上面\n\n02:59.042 --> 03:25.791\n已經從去年五月到今年的一月都傳了很多影片譬如說他寫台灣永遠是中國的台灣兩岸終將統一也必然統一等等這些我想已經觸犯了台灣是一個主權國家以及觸犯了社會治安跟國家安全的底線那他又在辯論說這是他言論自由我想大家都知道言論自由絕對不是他所說的言論自由可以用武力統一台灣這樣子的字眼\n\n03:27.264 --> 03:55.338\n好謝謝部長好那部長請回院長我們進入今天的主題就是財務法那昨天跟今天我們連續在這個地方院長也來報告那行政委提出複議關於總預算案和財務法我覺得藍白推這兩個法案同時推出來其實是個大笑話這根本是矛盾的總預算我們通過了那財務法\n\n03:56.434 --> 04:22.049\n如果按照藍白的裁判法的內容那已經通過了總預算案怎麼辦你給地方的錢在總預算裡面都有了嘛對不對是那你現在又通過一個新的裁判法地方有多出了很多錢那你總預算案已經通過了那現在這個裁判法是什麼時候要開始實施因為他又沒有訂一個實施日期\n\n04:23.063 --> 04:51.386\n他說公佈日就實施但是其中有一個規定就是有一個條款他是說你沒有第十四日期總統公告十天內公告公告後三天內就生效了嘛但當中他還是有一個條條文他是說已經照原來的財務法已經劃定的這個總預算的分配不會受到影響大概是這樣子條文怎麼可能不受影響不過這個就是從去年12月20號通過之後延到現在才送書\n\n04:52.154 --> 05:11.601\n這是一種經過很精密的算法啦所以當然行政院要提復議啊是他才會給你拿那麼多錢丟到地方去那你怎麼去執行你總預算裡面規定中央該辦的事項我稍微算了一下啦我稍微算了一下我們總預算案有3.1兆啦\n\n05:14.005 --> 05:42.067\n那原來啊舊版的裁判法我們給地方就大概4700多億這本來就有的啦那你新的裁判法又多拿走了3750億也就是說地方啊總共啊可以拿到8500億左右就是新的裁判法那麼中央剩下多少錢因為你有1.8兆是不能動的法定支出你不能動你大概剩下5000億\n\n05:43.646 --> 06:09.726\n那這五千億啊請問啦國防要多少錢教育預算要多少錢國防教育大概就超過五千億啦那你其他的怎麼執行對不對現在地方的建設像捷運捷運台北也有啊桃園台中台南租屋補貼怎麼來育兒津貼怎麼來其他的一些中央開辦或補助的事項你怎麼執行\n\n06:12.222 --> 06:38.819\n這個才化法還執行下去啊那你行政院絕對癱瘓所以我們一定提出複議提複議啦但是南白多數啦大概也複議通過的可能性很低啦所以我也希望行政院對於接下來該採取的步驟我相信院長應該也有所呼喚應該有所計畫了吧我們有最好的準備也有最壞的打算\n\n06:41.627 --> 07:04.539\n現在可以宣布一下一切就是在合法合憲的範圍當中我們所能用的方式就是只有幾項而已我再來講因為國民黨常常說新的財務法給地方增加了很多的錢讓地方可以做很多的事情這根本是矛盾的因為第一個我用台南做例子\n\n07:05.725 --> 07:08.828\n台南現在現況啦特別統籌款那13億一般補助款193億統籌分配款322億這個就是現況\n\n07:19.977 --> 07:47.249\n但是現況之前還有一個計劃型補助也三百多億啦這兩個數字剛好一樣計劃型補助大概三百二十億然後新版的財劃法國民黨說台南多了一百六十三億但你怎麼可能呢你中央的錢哪裡來如果台南多了一百六十三億那中央一定會減少的就是計劃型補助嘛你會變得比較大的啊你錢就這樣而已\n\n07:49.653 --> 07:57.643\n所以我現在很懷疑你新的財化法你以為你從中央搶到多少錢可是中央原本給你的計畫行不住他一定會扣掉嘛這必然的啊\n\n08:00.814 --> 08:29.324\n那這一點的話就是為什麼以前在修財化法國民黨時候要修兩次2010年跟2012年馬政府時代國民黨在立法院絕對多數國民黨也要修財化法當時修財化法國民黨那時候還是必須把各縣市都找來請各縣市提出他的計畫需求等等開了很多次會兩次嘗試要修財化法馬政府都失敗了因為這個很複雜\n\n08:30.894 --> 08:56.629\n這個一定要經過很多次的大家的協商討論馬政五時代都沒有辦法產生共識了連當時國民黨多數的立法院都不支持馬政五的版本更何況現在隨便立法院搞一搞就丟一個版本出來那你叫行政院怎麼執行我用台南來看台南原本的計畫性補助台南市拿來做什麼地方政府拿來做什麼地方政府都會拿去做長照\n\n08:57.942 --> 09:25.212\n還有子女的教育補助啦托育補助啦還有一些像污水下水道啦育兒津貼以及未來的捷運這台南市既有的計劃型補助大概都拿來做這些事情那你現在新的財化法通過以後就慘了因為表面上好像台南多了一百六十幾億但你這些計劃型補助中央一定會砍掉啦必然啦\n\n09:26.775 --> 09:32.558\n甚至你可能全部砍掉啊因為你中央光是國防教育兩筆錢弄完了你都沒錢啊那國家怎麼運轉所以這樣的裁判法啊各地方政府的意見都沒有進來跟委員報告兩件事情你剛說的馬總統時代在2012年地方整體的財政的短處是589億那經過這幾年\n\n09:53.656 --> 10:12.333\n執政之後這幾年加強對地方的補助地方的財政在112年已經勝於高達648億整個是從負的變正的而且我們今年的總預算包括統籌分配稅款包括補助一般性補助計畫性補助給地方的超過一兆以上\n\n10:13.532 --> 10:40.755\n這個是不用修裁判法就已經在做的只是想把它做得更精密但是現在的裁判法如果照現行的施行的話那結果絕對不是這樣子中央會完全削弱就是我剛算的那個表嘛就既有的中央給地方的補助款大概一年大概就4800億了就將近5000億了好那你現在國民黨弄的這個新版的裁判法公平嗎\n\n10:41.766 --> 11:07.996\n台北市很有錢啊以後會更有錢啊台南台南大概是六都增加比例最低的啦那公平性我們來比較一下啦院長花蓮啊富坤崎的花蓮花蓮超24萬人口啦比本席的立委選區的人口數還要少啦但花蓮增加的補助館比台南市還多啦台南市還是直轄市喔台南市有180幾萬花蓮只有24萬啦彰化\n\n11:10.899 --> 11:39.088\n台南的人口比彰化多60萬台南的面積是彰化的兩倍那彰化為什麼拿補助館比台南多台南還是直轄市彰化不是那給我一個理由啊你給我一個理由這根本講不出來嘛那公平性你看連江縣連江縣只有一萬三千個人一萬三千人啊他原本一年七億現在變三萬三億啊那為什麼拖出來要做什麼\n\n11:40.962 --> 12:03.470\n這公平嗎而且每一個人的補助款比例高達23萬連江縣全國最高台南26000差了快10倍這就是水平分配上計算的權重比而且權重比院長講到重點權重比也不對台南市的南科已經產值高過竹科了\n\n12:08.476 --> 12:36.786\n但是他計算啦這種經濟產值啊他是用繳稅的注射地啦所以蘭科那麼多大公司啊他全部繳稅都是在台北市嘛所以台北市拿了用這樣用這一點做計算的權值拿的錢就很多啦那但是地方政府咧第一個我們要提供土地勞力還有招商的努力還有各項基礎建設啊這完全不比計算這公平嗎\n\n12:38.263 --> 12:56.684\n這樣怎麼公平就好像以前常說的你把煙囪都留在南部啊然後呢角色都在台北啊那你現在的財務法又按照這種公式下去計算那城鄉差距一定會越來越嚴重的嘛這是必然的嘛院長要補充嗎\n\n12:58.052 --> 13:16.453\n是委員說的很適合對於這個水平分配的指標還有權重這是非常重要的應該要非常精細的一個來做設計跟來做處理所以財政部一直在這個部分做努力以及邀請各地方政府還有專家學者來討論所以我們會認為這個部分第一個你要考慮\n\n13:17.394 --> 13:39.727\n每個地方的自然條件不同工商發展的條件不同而且人口的結構裡面65歲以上跟14歲以下的孩子的這一個需要政府的服務是更多這個都應該做不同的一個分配跟配置所以我們那天3月6號在開會的時候就有非常詳細的一個配置以及調整係數比如說65歲以上的人口跟14歲以下我們一點\n\n13:40.307 --> 14:00.020\n一個人用1.2人來計算那另外土地面積也會對於農牧用地或是國土保安用地做不同的一個權重的一個調整這個是剛剛就如同委員所說這是非常重要而且還非常精細的來計算而不能只是把人口跟林立事業把它放得那麼大你權值基本上這個要跟各地方政府來談\n\n14:01.545 --> 14:24.846\n像人口以外比如說你面積還有人口結構還有財政的努力地方政府也要自己做財政努力財政紀律才能對支出的結構還會不同像本期我不反對財化法修改但不能這樣亂改不能這樣亂修我想地方政府也很清楚你這樣\n\n14:27.889 --> 14:55.029\n這樣後備台後備國啦通過這個採訪法那地方政府的計劃性補助中央一定拿不出來嘛對不對因為他排擠掉了一定會排擠掉吧怎麼可能原來的補助都不變然後又增加那麼多錢給地方那有可能啊你中央有錢要去哪裡我剛剛已經算給院長你同意了我算成那個數字吧你中央政府大概剩五千億啦你國防要多少錢\n\n14:56.141 --> 15:22.386\n大概2400億教育大概2600億國防教育就超過5000億了那其他事情怎麼做所以我覺得院長還是要再往下一步計畫做好了呼籲不會過那我們行政院面對這樣的總預算裁判法行政院接下來要採取什麼步驟這個要準備好了我們會全力來\n\n15:25.170 --> 15:27.378\n好謝謝林俊憲委員的詢問謝謝卓院長相關部會所長\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.005,"end":8.968,"text":"好 謝謝主席 本席邀請我們行政院卓院長麻煩再請卓院長議員好院長好 院長在進入我們今天主題財化法之前呢 我想先請教院長"},{"start":27.594,"end":38.973,"text":"就是昨天啊移民署撤銷了一位中配網紅的居留權因為這位中配網紅啊經常性的在鼓勵武統"},{"start":40.683,"end":70.082,"text":"所以在經過多次勸阻無效之後啊移民署以他妨害 危害了我們的社會安定影響到國家安全就撤銷了他的居留權這件事情不知道院長的看法是什麼因為這是首例啦這是大概有史以來第一例啦有這樣子的居留權被撤銷是 目前他的處理是撤銷他的居留權同時改以單次入出境的許可"},{"start":70.842,"end":86.474,"text":"那我希望無論是在台灣任何的外國的配偶來到台灣組成一個家庭或是任何一親到台灣來的都要愛台灣這個土地跟人一親要愛他的親配偶要互相能夠遵守其實我們法律是有規範的是啊"},{"start":87.236,"end":113.504,"text":"你如果違反了例如妨礙社會安定影響到國家安全還有我們國家的立場相關的其他法律規定是可以撤銷他的居留權那這一件事怎麼做對 以前是從來不執行的其實我覺得除了有善意的勸阻但也要有依法執行的魄力公權力一定要張揚出來這個在歐美很多國家也這樣子"},{"start":114.554,"end":142.526,"text":"有些發表極端言論的例如像伊斯蘭啊 什麼極端言論的也都被歐美政府直接撤銷拘留或直接驅逐出境那台灣過去啦一直都是不敢處理這一塊啦都是忍耐啦 勸阻啦那這一次大概是成為首例 第一例我們依照我們相關法令規定它已經影響到我們社會的安定它已經整天的鼓勵於武統啦"},{"start":143.916,"end":161.129,"text":"散播一些幾乎是要破壞我們台灣主權立場的一些言論直接把它撤銷它的居留權我認為有第一例就有第二例這個相關的法令我們應該要依法執行但是這樣的一個決定"},{"start":162.435,"end":177.956,"text":"我覺得應該是院長你親自決定的吧我們很肯定內政部依照事實認定那請部長來說明一下現在跟未來我們的態度是 謝謝委員的關心我們是根據事實來做認定因為這一位他在抖音上面"},{"start":179.042,"end":205.791,"text":"已經從去年五月到今年的一月都傳了很多影片譬如說他寫台灣永遠是中國的台灣兩岸終將統一也必然統一等等這些我想已經觸犯了台灣是一個主權國家以及觸犯了社會治安跟國家安全的底線那他又在辯論說這是他言論自由我想大家都知道言論自由絕對不是他所說的言論自由可以用武力統一台灣這樣子的字眼"},{"start":207.264,"end":235.338,"text":"好謝謝部長好那部長請回院長我們進入今天的主題就是財務法那昨天跟今天我們連續在這個地方院長也來報告那行政委提出複議關於總預算案和財務法我覺得藍白推這兩個法案同時推出來其實是個大笑話這根本是矛盾的總預算我們通過了那財務法"},{"start":236.434,"end":262.049,"text":"如果按照藍白的裁判法的內容那已經通過了總預算案怎麼辦你給地方的錢在總預算裡面都有了嘛對不對是那你現在又通過一個新的裁判法地方有多出了很多錢那你總預算案已經通過了那現在這個裁判法是什麼時候要開始實施因為他又沒有訂一個實施日期"},{"start":263.063,"end":291.386,"text":"他說公佈日就實施但是其中有一個規定就是有一個條款他是說你沒有第十四日期總統公告十天內公告公告後三天內就生效了嘛但當中他還是有一個條條文他是說已經照原來的財務法已經劃定的這個總預算的分配不會受到影響大概是這樣子條文怎麼可能不受影響不過這個就是從去年12月20號通過之後延到現在才送書"},{"start":292.154,"end":311.601,"text":"這是一種經過很精密的算法啦所以當然行政院要提復議啊是他才會給你拿那麼多錢丟到地方去那你怎麼去執行你總預算裡面規定中央該辦的事項我稍微算了一下啦我稍微算了一下我們總預算案有3.1兆啦"},{"start":314.005,"end":342.067,"text":"那原來啊舊版的裁判法我們給地方就大概4700多億這本來就有的啦那你新的裁判法又多拿走了3750億也就是說地方啊總共啊可以拿到8500億左右就是新的裁判法那麼中央剩下多少錢因為你有1.8兆是不能動的法定支出你不能動你大概剩下5000億"},{"start":343.646,"end":369.726,"text":"那這五千億啊 請問啦 國防要多少錢教育預算要多少錢國防教育大概就超過五千億啦那你其他的怎麼執行 對不對現在地方的建設像捷運捷運台北也有啊 桃園 台中 台南租屋補貼怎麼來 育兒津貼怎麼來其他的一些中央開辦或補助的事項你怎麼執行"},{"start":372.222,"end":398.819,"text":"這個才化法還執行下去啊那你行政院絕對癱瘓所以我們一定提出複議提複議啦但是南白多數啦大概也複議通過的可能性很低啦所以我也希望行政院對於接下來該採取的步驟我相信院長應該也有所呼喚應該有所計畫了吧我們有最好的準備也有最壞的打算"},{"start":401.627,"end":424.539,"text":"現在可以宣布一下一切就是在合法合憲的範圍當中我們所能用的方式就是只有幾項而已我再來講因為國民黨常常說新的財務法給地方增加了很多的錢讓地方可以做很多的事情這根本是矛盾的因為第一個我用台南做例子"},{"start":425.725,"end":428.828,"text":"台南現在現況啦特別統籌款那13億一般補助款193億統籌分配款322億這個就是現況"},{"start":439.977,"end":467.249,"text":"但是現況之前還有一個計劃型補助也三百多億啦這兩個數字剛好一樣計劃型補助大概三百二十億然後新版的財劃法國民黨說台南多了一百六十三億但你怎麼可能呢你中央的錢哪裡來如果台南多了一百六十三億那中央一定會減少的就是計劃型補助嘛你會變得比較大的啊你錢就這樣而已"},{"start":469.653,"end":477.643,"text":"所以我現在很懷疑你新的財化法你以為你從中央搶到多少錢可是中央原本給你的計畫行不住他一定會扣掉嘛這必然的啊"},{"start":480.814,"end":509.324,"text":"那這一點的話就是為什麼以前在修財化法國民黨時候要修兩次2010年跟2012年馬政府時代國民黨在立法院絕對多數國民黨也要修財化法當時修財化法國民黨那時候還是必須把各縣市都找來請各縣市提出他的計畫需求等等開了很多次會兩次嘗試要修財化法馬政府都失敗了因為這個很複雜"},{"start":510.894,"end":536.629,"text":"這個一定要經過很多次的大家的協商討論馬政五時代都沒有辦法產生共識了連當時國民黨多數的立法院都不支持馬政五的版本更何況現在隨便立法院搞一搞就丟一個版本出來那你叫行政院怎麼執行我用台南來看台南原本的計畫性補助台南市拿來做什麼地方政府拿來做什麼地方政府都會拿去做長照"},{"start":537.942,"end":565.212,"text":"還有子女的教育補助啦 托育補助啦還有一些像污水下水道啦 育兒津貼以及未來的捷運這台南市既有的計劃型補助大概都拿來做這些事情那你現在新的財化法通過以後就慘了因為表面上好像台南多了一百六十幾億但你這些計劃型補助中央一定會砍掉啦 必然啦"},{"start":566.775,"end":572.558,"text":"甚至你可能全部砍掉啊因為你中央光是國防教育兩筆錢弄完了你都沒錢啊那國家怎麼運轉所以這樣的裁判法啊各地方政府的意見都沒有進來跟委員報告兩件事情你剛說的馬總統時代在2012年地方整體的財政的短處是589億那經過這幾年"},{"start":593.656,"end":612.333,"text":"執政之後這幾年加強對地方的補助地方的財政在112年已經勝於高達648億整個是從負的變正的而且我們今年的總預算包括統籌分配稅款包括補助 一般性補助 計畫性補助給地方的超過一兆以上"},{"start":613.532,"end":640.755,"text":"這個是不用修裁判法就已經在做的只是想把它做得更精密但是現在的裁判法如果照現行的施行的話那結果絕對不是這樣子 中央會完全削弱就是我剛算的那個表嘛就既有的中央給地方的補助款大概一年大概就4800億了就將近5000億了好 那你現在國民黨弄的這個新版的裁判法公平嗎"},{"start":641.766,"end":667.996,"text":"台北市很有錢啊以後會更有錢啊台南 台南大概是六都增加比例最低的啦那公平性我們來比較一下啦 院長花蓮啊 富坤崎的花蓮花蓮超24萬人口啦比本席的立委選區的人口數還要少啦但花蓮增加的補助館比台南市還多啦台南市還是直轄市喔台南市有180幾萬 花蓮只有24萬啦彰化"},{"start":670.899,"end":699.088,"text":"台南的人口比彰化多60萬台南的面積是彰化的兩倍那彰化為什麼拿補助館比台南多台南還是直轄市彰化不是那給我一個理由啊你給我一個理由這根本講不出來嘛那公平性你看連江縣連江縣只有一萬三千個人一萬三千人啊他原本一年七億現在變三萬三億啊那為什麼拖出來要做什麼"},{"start":700.962,"end":723.47,"text":"這公平嗎 而且每一個人的補助款比例高達23萬連江縣全國最高 台南26000差了快10倍這就是水平分配上計算的權重比而且權重比 院長講到重點 權重比也不對台南市的南科已經產值高過竹科了"},{"start":728.476,"end":756.786,"text":"但是他計算啦這種經濟產值啊他是用繳稅的注射地啦所以蘭科那麼多大公司啊他全部繳稅都是在台北市嘛所以台北市拿了用這樣用這一點做計算的權值拿的錢就很多啦那但是地方政府咧第一個我們要提供土地勞力還有招商的努力還有各項基礎建設啊這完全不比計算這公平嗎"},{"start":758.263,"end":776.684,"text":"這樣怎麼公平就好像以前常說的你把煙囪都留在南部啊然後呢角色都在台北啊那你現在的財務法又按照這種公式下去計算那城鄉差距一定會越來越嚴重的嘛這是必然的嘛院長要補充嗎"},{"start":778.052,"end":796.453,"text":"是委員說的很適合對於這個水平分配的指標還有權重這是非常重要的應該要非常精細的一個來做設計跟來做處理所以財政部一直在這個部分做努力以及邀請各地方政府還有專家學者來討論所以我們會認為這個部分第一個你要考慮"},{"start":797.394,"end":819.727,"text":"每個地方的自然條件不同工商發展的條件不同而且人口的結構裡面65歲以上跟14歲以下的孩子的這一個需要政府的服務是更多這個都應該做不同的一個分配跟配置所以我們那天3月6號在開會的時候就有非常詳細的一個配置以及調整係數比如說65歲以上的人口跟14歲以下我們一點"},{"start":820.307,"end":840.02,"text":"一個人用1.2人來計算那另外土地面積也會對於農牧用地或是國土保安用地做不同的一個權重的一個調整這個是剛剛就如同委員所說這是非常重要而且還非常精細的來計算而不能只是把人口跟林立事業把它放得那麼大你權值基本上這個要跟各地方政府來談"},{"start":841.545,"end":864.846,"text":"像人口以外比如說你面積還有人口結構還有財政的努力地方政府也要自己做財政努力財政紀律才能對 支出的結構還會不同像本期我不反對財化法修改但不能這樣亂改不能這樣亂修我想地方政府也很清楚你這樣"},{"start":867.889,"end":895.029,"text":"這樣後備台後備國啦通過這個採訪法那地方政府的計劃性補助中央一定拿不出來嘛對不對因為他排擠掉了一定會排擠掉吧怎麼可能原來的補助都不變然後又增加那麼多錢給地方那有可能啊你中央有錢要去哪裡我剛剛已經算給院長你同意了我算成那個數字吧你中央政府大概剩五千億啦你國防要多少錢"},{"start":896.141,"end":922.386,"text":"大概2400億教育大概2600億國防教育就超過5000億了那其他事情怎麼做所以我覺得院長還是要再往下一步計畫做好了呼籲不會過那我們行政院面對這樣的總預算裁判法行政院接下來要採取什麼步驟這個要準備好了我們會全力來"},{"start":925.17,"end":927.378,"text":"好 謝謝林俊憲委員的詢問謝謝卓院長 相關部會所長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":514,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時49分）謝謝主席。本席邀請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：院長好。院長，在進入我們今天的主題──財劃法之前，我想先請教院長，就是昨天移民署撤銷了一位中配網紅的居留權，因為這位中配網紅經常性的在鼓勵武統，在經過多次勸阻無效之後，移民署以他危害我們的社會安定、影響到國家安全為由，撤銷了他的居留權。不知道院長對這件事情的看法是什麼？因為這是首例，大概是有史以來第一例這樣子的居留權被撤銷。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，目前他的處理是撤銷他的居留權，同時改以單次入出境的許可，我希望任何外國配偶來到臺灣組成一個家庭，或是任何依親到臺灣來的，都要愛臺灣這個土地跟人，依親要愛他的親，配偶要互相能夠尊重。"],["林委員俊憲：其實我們法律是有規範的，你如果違反了例如妨害社會安定，影響到國家安全，還有國家立場相關的其他法律規定，是可以撤銷他的居留權。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，這件事情就是這麼做。"],["林委員俊憲：對，只是以前從來不執行，其實我覺得除了有善意的勸阻外，也要有依法執行的魄力。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，公權力一定要張揚出來。"],["林委員俊憲：在歐美很多國家也是這樣子，有些發表極端言論的，例如像伊斯蘭等一些極端言論的，也都被歐美政府直接撤銷居留或直接驅逐出境，而臺灣過去一直都是不敢處理這一塊，都是忍耐、勸阻，這一次大概是成為首例、第一例，依照我們相關法令規定，他已經影響到我們社會安定，他整天在鼓勵武統，散播一些幾乎是要破壞臺灣主權立場的一些言論，所以直接撤銷他的居留權。我認為有第一例就會有第二例，這個相關的法令我們應該要依法執行。這樣的決定，我覺得應該是院長你親自決定的吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們很肯定內政部依照事實認定，是不是請部長來說明一下現在跟未來我們的態度。"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝委員的關心，我們是根據事實來做認定，因為這一位從去年5月到今年1月已經在抖音上面傳了很多影片，譬如說，他寫臺灣永遠是中國的臺灣、兩岸終將統一也必然統一等等……"],["林委員俊憲：部長，這我知道。"],["劉部長世芳：我想已經觸犯了臺灣是一個主權國家，以及觸犯了社會治安跟國家安全的底線，他又再辯論說這是他的言論自由，我想大家都知道，言論自由絕對不是他所說的言論自由「可以用武力統一臺灣」這樣子的字眼。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝部長，部長請回。院長，我們來進入今天的主題──財劃法。昨天跟今天，我們連續在這個地方，院長也來報告，行政院也提出覆議，關於總預算案和財劃法，我覺得藍白把這兩個法案同時推出來，其實是個大笑話，因為這根本是矛盾的！總預算我們通過了，至於財劃法，如果按照藍白提出的財劃法內容，已經通過的總預算案要怎麼辦？你給地方的錢在總預算裡面都有了嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員俊憲：你現在又通過一個新的財劃法，地方有多出了很多錢，總預算案已經通過了，那現在這個財劃法是什麼時候要開始實施？因為他又沒有訂一個實施日期。"],["卓院長榮泰：他是公布日就是實施日，但是他其中有一個條款是說，已經照去年……"],["林委員俊憲：你沒有訂實施日期，總統10天內公告，公告後3天內就生效了嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：但當中他還是有一個條文，他是說照原來的財劃法已經劃定的總預算的分配不會受到影響，大概是這樣子的條文，不過……"],["林委員俊憲：怎麼可能不受影響？"],["卓院長榮泰：不過這個是從去年12月20日通過之後延到現在才送出，這是一種經過很精密的算法啦！"],["林委員俊憲：所以當然行政院要提覆議。"],["卓院長榮泰：是！"],["林委員俊憲：財劃法跟你拿那麼多錢丟到地方去，你怎麼執行總預算裡面規定中央該辦的事項？我稍微算了一下，總預算案有3.1兆，原來舊版的財劃法給地方大概就四千七百多億，這是本來就有的。"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["林委員俊憲：新的財劃法又多拿走了3,750億，也就是地方總共可以拿到8,500億左右，這是新的財劃法，那麼中央剩下多少錢？因為你有1.8兆是不能動的。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，法定支出。"],["林委員俊憲：法定支出不能動，你大概剩下5,000億，這5,000億請問國防要多少錢？教育預算要多少錢？國防、教育大概就超過5,000億。"],["卓院長榮泰：超過了！"],["林委員俊憲：那你其他的怎麼執行？對不對？現在地方建設像捷運，捷運臺北也有，包括桃園、臺中、臺南，租屋補貼怎麼來？育兒津貼怎麼來？其他的一些中央開辦或補助的事項，你怎麼執行？所以這個財劃法一執行下去，行政院絕對癱瘓！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們一定提出覆議。"],["林委員俊憲：你提覆議，但是藍白多數，覆議通過的可能性很低，所以行政院對於接下來該採取的步驟，我相信院長應該也有所腹案，應該有所計畫了吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有最好的準備，也有最壞的打算。"],["林委員俊憲：院長現在可以宣布一下嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：一切就是在合法合憲的範圍當中，我們所能用的方式就只有幾項而已。"],["林委員俊憲：再來，國民黨常常說，新的財劃法給地方增加了很多的錢，讓地方可以做很多的事情，這根本是矛盾的！第一個、我用臺南做例子，臺南的現況是特別統籌款13億，一般補助款193億，統籌分配款322億，這個就是現況。但是現況之前還有一個計畫型補助，也三百多億，這兩個數字剛好一樣，計畫型補助也大概320億。然後國民黨說新版的財劃法，臺南多了163億，但怎麼可能呢？中央的錢哪裡來？如果臺南多了163億，中央一定會減少的就是計畫型補助，因為餅就只有那麼大，錢就只有這樣而已，所以有什麼好高興的？你以為用新的財劃法能從中央搶到多少錢，可是中央原本給你的計畫型補助一定會扣掉，這是必然的！這就是為什麼以前在修財劃法，國民黨說要修兩次，2010年跟2012年馬政府時代，國民黨在立法院絕對多數，國民黨也要修財劃法。當時修財劃法，國民黨還是必須把各縣市都找來，請各縣市提出計畫需求等等，開了很多次會，兩次嘗試要修財劃法，馬政府都失敗。因為這個很複雜，一定要經過很多次大家協商討論。馬政府時代都沒有辦法產生共識了，連當時國民黨多數的立法院都不支持馬政府的版本，更何況現在呢？立法院隨便搞一搞，就丟一個版本出來，你叫行政院怎麼執行？","我用臺南來看，臺南原本的計畫型補助，臺南市拿來做什麼？地方政府拿來做什麼？地方政府都會拿去做長照，還有子女的教育補助、托育補助，還有一些像污水下水道、育兒津貼以及未來的捷運，臺南市既有的計畫型補助大概都拿來做這些事情。現在新的財劃法通過以後就慘了！因為表面上臺南好像多了一百六十幾億，但這些計畫型補助中央一定會砍掉，必然！甚至可能全部砍掉，因為中央光是國防、教育兩筆錢弄完了，就沒錢啦！那國家怎麼運轉？所以這樣的財劃法，第一個、各地方政府的意見都沒有進來……"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告兩件事情，你剛剛說的馬總統時代，在2012年地方整體的財政短絀是589億，經過我們執政之後這幾年加強對地方的補助，地方的財政在112年已經賸餘高達648億，整個從負的變正的，而且我們今年的總預算包括統籌分配稅款、包括補助，有一般性補助、計畫性補助，給地方的超過1兆以上，這個是不用修財劃法就已經在做的，只是想把它做得更精密，但是如果照現行的財劃法實施的話，結果絕對不是這樣子，中央會完全削弱。"],["林委員俊憲：就是我剛剛算的那個表，既有的中央給地方的補助款大概一年就4,800億，將近5,000億。現在國民黨弄的新版財劃法公平嗎？臺北市很有錢，以後會更有錢，臺南大概是六都增加比例最低的。院長，關於公平性，我們來比較一下，花蓮──傅崐萁的花蓮，差不多24萬人口，比本席的立委選區人口數還要少，但花蓮增加的補助款比臺南市還多，臺南市還是直轄市，臺南市有一百八十幾萬人，花蓮只有24萬人；至於彰化，臺南的人口比彰化多60萬，臺南的面積是彰化的兩倍，為什麼彰化拿的補助款比臺南多？臺南還是直轄市，彰化不是，你給我一個理由、你給我一個理由！這根本講不出來。而公平性，你看連江縣，連江縣只有1萬3,000人，原本一年7億，現在變33億，為什麼？多出來要做什麼？這公平嗎？每一個人的補助款比例高達23萬元，連江縣全國最高，臺南2萬6,000元，差了快10倍。"],["卓院長榮泰：這就是水平分配上計算的權重比比例不對……"],["林委員俊憲：而且權重比，院長講到重點，權重比也不對。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，用人口跟土地來算……"],["林委員俊憲：臺南市南科的產值已經高過竹科，但是它計算經濟產值是用繳稅的註冊地，所以南科那麼多大公司全部都是繳稅在臺北市，所以臺北市用這一點做計算的權值，拿的錢就很多，但是我們地方政府第一個要提供土地、勞力，還有招商的努力，還有各項的基礎建設，卻完全不予計算，這公平嗎？這樣哪有公平？就好像以前常說的，你把煙囪都留在南部，然後繳稅都在臺北，現在的財劃法又按照這種公式下去計算，城鄉差距一定會越來越嚴重，這是必然的。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，沒有錯。"],["林委員俊憲：院長要不要補充？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，委員說得很是，對於這個水平分配的指標還有權重，這是非常重要的，應該要非常精細地來做設計跟處理，所以財政部一直在這個部分做努力，已經邀集各地方政府還有專家學者來討論，所以我們會認為這個部分，第一個，你要考慮每個地方的自然條件不同，工商發展的條件不同，而且人口的結構裡面，65歲以上跟14歲以下的孩子需要政府的服務更多，這個都應該做不同的分配跟配置。所以我們3月6號那天在開會的時候，就有非常詳細的配置以及調整係數，譬如說，65歲以上的人口跟14歲以下，我們1個人用1.2人來計算；另外，土地面積也會對於農牧用地或者國土保安用地做不同的權重調整，如同剛剛委員所說，這是非常重要而且要非常精細的來計算，不能只是把人口跟營利事業放那麼大的比重。"],["林委員俊憲：有關權值，基本上這個要跟各地方政府來談。"],["莊部長翠雲：要去討論，對。"],["林委員俊憲：除了人口以外，比如面積還有……"],["莊部長翠雲：人口、面積……"],["林委員俊憲：還有人口結構。"],["莊部長翠雲：營利事業的營業額，還有財政的努力，地方政府也要自己去做財政努力，我們應該要給予它鼓勵。"],["林委員俊憲：對，沒有錯，財政紀律……"],["莊部長翠雲：對、對，支出等等都要……"],["卓院長榮泰：人口的結構還會不同。"],["莊部長翠雲：也不同。"],["林委員俊憲：本席不反對財劃法的修改，但不能這樣亂改。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，應該要做非常多的討論。"],["林委員俊憲：不能這樣亂修啦，我想地方政府也很清楚，這樣亂殺價、喊價通過這個財劃法，地方政府的計畫型補助，中央一定拿不出來。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，因為它排擠掉了這個部分的財源。"],["林委員俊憲：一定會排擠掉。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，排擠掉了。"],["林委員俊憲：怎麼可能原來的補助都不變，然後又增加那麼多錢給地方，怎麼可能？中央的錢要從哪裡來？我剛剛已經算給院長，你同意我算的那個數字吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯、沒錯。"],["林委員俊憲：中央政府大概剩5,000億，國防要多少錢？大概2,400億，教育大概2,600億，光是國防和教育就超過5,000億了，那其他事情怎麼做？我覺得院長還是要再把下一步計畫做好，覆議不會過啊！我們面對這樣的總預算和財劃法，行政院接下來要採取什麼樣的步驟，這個要準備好。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會全力來努力跟挽救。"],["主席：謝謝林俊憲委員的詢問，也謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的答詢。","接下來請登記第7位王鴻薇委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":344,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","傅崐萁","許宇甄","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","鍾佳濱","翁曉玲","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","林俊憲","王鴻薇","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","馬文君","陳亭妃","林思銘","賴瑞隆"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2025-03-12"],"gazette_id":"1142501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142501_00011","1142501_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第2次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"「財政收支劃分法」第八條、第十六條之一及第三十條條文覆議案","agenda_id":"1142501_00020"}}}