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\"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"卓\", \"start\": 935.937, \"end\": 936.057, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 936.057, \"end\": 936.257, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 936.257, \"end\": 936.478, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 936.478, \"end\": 936.538, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 936.538, \"end\": 936.719, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"廷\", \"start\": 936.719, \"end\": 936.739, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"飛\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 936.739, \"end\": 936.759, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,308 --> 00:00:09,430\n謝謝主席,麻煩請院長請卓院長\n\n2\n00:00:21,209 --> 00:00:44,845\n阿維好院長好院長午安因為今天大概主要是針對我們行政院提出財化法附議的報告那現在進行這些詢問在這裡有幾個問題也想要請教院長我們先從大家其實這個大家也都提到不管是院裡面也好或者\n\n3\n00:00:45,825 --> 00:01:01,657\n包括立法院也好過去不管是由誰執政包括國民黨執政的時期其實這個已經提了才化法要修法的這個部分已經提了至少二十幾年以上那就這個部分我們其實每一個縣市都有它\n\n4\n00:01:02,518 --> 00:01:26,363\n每個地方政府都有它不同的條件我們以南投縣為例好了南投縣是一個農業大縣所以其實它的自主裁員並不多它工商不發達所以其實像我們的自籌裁員嚴重的不足以近五年來說它的總裁員年平均大概341億可是自籌裁員只有45億大概只佔了13%\n\n5\n00:01:28,444 --> 00:01:41,779\n統籌分配稅款對像這樣的農業線或者自籌財源其實比較困難的這個部分其實是非常重要的所以我們也希望透過財化法的修訂其實未來\n\n6\n00:01:42,540 --> 00:02:04,093\n可以給像這樣子的一個地方政府他們有足夠的財源可以去推動縣民他所需的基本生活跟建設還有就是我們來看看它的土地面積南投縣的土地面積大概佔了全國的11.34%它是九分之一強\n\n7\n00:02:05,154 --> 00:02:20,401\n可是他大概也是鄰近縣市的三倍大我們比周邊的那個雖然他人口多像彰化可是我們的普及面積其實大得多那為了維護其實人民的基本生活需求\n\n8\n00:02:21,889 --> 00:02:36,595\n他還是必須要提供像治安消防還有治山防洪水土保持教育醫療交通還有社會福利等等好像很多為什麼在偏鄉他的人口越來越少\n\n9\n00:02:37,915 --> 00:02:54,647\n幾乎都往周邊的或者都會去去集中包括他很多我剛提到的這些條件包括教育包括醫療包括交通各方面其實他都在限縮他的人口發展那如果像這些我們都需要\n\n10\n00:02:56,408 --> 00:03:10,838\n持續去維持的這些重要政事他都還要透過更多的資源需要更多的經費跟人力所以如果透過才化法的修正也希望可以改善像以上提到這些問題因為現在面臨的\n\n11\n00:03:13,199 --> 00:03:30,937\n問題也越來越嚴峻所以地方政府也想盡很多方法比如說剛剛也有委員提到的像有一些補助你生育多少他可以多少補助像對老人家像老年人口都是分布在很多都是還留在原來的家鄉\n\n12\n00:03:31,838 --> 00:03:58,303\n那像這樣子的部分其實你光靠自籌財源也是不足的目前當然是中央可是有時候中央對於各個縣市他的條件是不一樣所以他能夠做到的太一致性他沒有辦法針對他實際需求去把它做到最好甚至改善到最好那另外就是像南投縣政府他每年配合中央的這些政策或法令他必須要\n\n13\n00:03:59,043 --> 00:04:22,015\n辦理計劃型的這個補助款的一些配合款那以近五年來說平均每年就高達81億那這些也都不能少因為你只要中央你有一些政策還有一些補助款下來的時候如果你沒有這些配合款那也會嚴重影響到我們像地方政府的一些發展\n\n14\n00:04:23,135 --> 00:04:42,286\n還有像他的一些地方的照顧所以也因為在這樣財政困窘的情況之下他除了自手裁員少而且要配合款以外那對於所有其他必須要推動的重大的建設就很難推動比如像焚化爐\n\n15\n00:04:43,854 --> 00:05:03,459\n南投縣有很多大家都說它好山好水觀光發展是重要的一個產業項目可是我們到現在沒有焚化爐它垃圾問題一直是很大的沒有辦法解決的那地方要靠自己的財源那也有困難中央又沒有辦法在這個部分直接\n\n16\n00:05:03,979 --> 00:05:32,786\n去做有效的補助像過去每一個縣市一線是一個焚化爐這是在過去環保署時代它整個國家的一個政策可是到最後當它足夠的時候我們的就沒有做到了那現在在迫切需要的時候我們常常可能沒有辦法去推動像這樣的一個重大建設另外還有中央一直提到的剛剛我看中委員也有特別提到可是那個有些\n\n17\n00:05:33,966 --> 00:05:53,809\n聽起來似是而非當你們說有一些要下放比如說醫院過去的省立醫院現在變成部立醫院他可能還是賠錢的狀況可是為什麼會賠錢這在整體的制度上面因為他如果是公立的他有很多是配合政府的政策\n\n18\n00:05:54,329 --> 00:06:13,097\n那為什麼他沒有辦法因為包括有一些醫療資源有一些醫師還有護理人員的一些人力資源其實他也沒有辦法完全到位所以很多他們因為他不是以賺錢為取向所以他可能也沒有辦法這樣可是你們又說地方\n\n19\n00:06:13,817 --> 00:06:41,169\n好像不願意接這個都還沒有確切的談到所以市權要怎麼下放這裡一直提到你如果說市權要下授地方政府的這樣的議題應該好好的釐清目前有部分中央機關他執行的市權本來就是精神一波或者合併的機關他包括人力跟經費如果中央延伤要下授這樣的市權所以\n\n20\n00:06:42,372 --> 00:06:56,058\n人力跟經費你要一併再把它下放下去那整體要去怎麼樣去討論所有相關的你們現在初步算起來大概3000多億以今年的預算下去算大概3753億\n\n21\n00:06:57,739 --> 00:07:09,288\n那是整體的一些費用的支出就是下放給地方政府我剛剛說了這麼多所以我們剛剛提到的就是像最重要的如果事權中央機關在相關的這些經費跟\n\n22\n00:07:14,385 --> 00:07:30,960\n還有他的人力一併一波我相信其實也會解決某些問題因為我們現在接下來可能要探討就是比較具體的因為我們看到的都目前為止理由比較隆重也比較抽象我想請教我們裁員減少的具體影響我們沒有看到我看了報告的內容沒有很具體的這些部分\n\n23\n00:07:40,749 --> 00:07:48,344\n那行政院可不可以提供比較具體的案例來證明說哪些政策會因為裁員減少而無法執行\n\n24\n00:07:49,460 --> 00:08:16,962\n院長是不是可以舉例一下雖然十多年來地方政府的財政已經從短促到現在有餘額了但是我們認為給地方多一些的財政自主這都是合理應該談的但是我們不願意看到的就是光是從人口跟營業稅來做權重的分比就剛剛陳律委員所說的人口不多營業稅少他分的就少我們更好希望相反透過財政收支法合理的修法把地方財政比較弱的把它拉上來\n\n25\n00:08:17,742 --> 00:08:22,515\n那大家就會變成一個比較均衡的台灣至於我們所說的影響到哪裡\n\n26\n00:08:23,843 --> 00:08:48,083\n軌道建設一定會影響我們的細項都有軌道建設我們現在在很多六都尤其多的軌道建設我們下放到地方政府三千多億可是我們一年高達將近三兆我們今年通過的是兩到九千兩百億那你減少了三千七百五十億左右你會讓所有的軌道工程沒有辦法進行嗎\n\n27\n00:08:49,743 --> 00:09:15,191\n3兆1325裡面有1.8兆是法定的支出沒有辦法減的另外我們已經編的這個兩項補助2411跟2501億我們的軌道工程一年大概多少錢編多少錢如果現在已經核定的是好幾千億好幾千億所以它一共是多少就是它如果你因為不要用一年算如果你的軌道工程它總共是多少\n\n28\n00:09:15,885 --> 00:09:32,508\n我們現在今年的軌道已經核定的是8659億114年編列的是171億我想請教院長我們過去在建那個高速公路的時候其實它是由誰執行的高速公路\n\n29\n00:09:37,194 --> 00:09:49,449\n現在過去也有省政府他非常的清楚如果你是國家的重大建設他應該由中央你去編列這樣的預算那你不會把它拆開說因為我編了2000億所以我這裡多了\n\n30\n00:09:52,612 --> 00:10:12,677\n可能要有一部分20%出去以後我這裡就少了20%不是這樣算的你今天要把它很清楚的具體的說明就像現在我們編總預算的時候連那個劃分池啦連什麼補助地方的所有電費全部通通把它\n\n31\n00:10:14,161 --> 00:10:29,169\n全部都把它放在一起其實這是誤導我現在要說的是當初我們的高速公路為什麼可以建因為它就是一筆預算它就是直接由單一的單位去把它執行完成我們現在會面臨到的是這3750億\n\n32\n00:10:32,611 --> 00:10:56,869\n左右的預算你分配到地方我用我們中央政府常常講的包括我們的國防部每次在做很多不管你是軍購或者是國防自主他最常講的一句話就是先求有再求好已經二十幾年了大家都希望有更多的預算可以在地方上讓自己可以有\n\n33\n00:10:57,469 --> 00:11:20,627\n依據我們自己的發展還有我們自己的需求希望可以建構不同的這樣子的一個政治或者所有地方建設的一個推動還包括福利措施可是很難尤其是沒有錢的這樣的縣市我們就面臨到這樣的困難所以我現在要說的是你當你要先求有再求好\n\n34\n00:11:21,107 --> 00:11:44,015\n我們不過要了過去中央政府也是60%你現在就是這40%因為過去要經省的時候那時候在中心青春本來南投的整體熱鬧度各方面的發展其實還不錯因為省政府有很多的單位其實是在南投縣的可是當他走了以後其實對我們來說急速的萎縮\n\n35\n00:11:44,855 --> 00:12:08,695\n那像那時候說要精神的時候告訴我們全體國人說每年可以省掉五千億可是我們沒有看到這五千億到底用在哪裡所以到底真的省了這五千億嗎那應該要怎麼樣去做這樣的規劃剛剛我提到就是說院長我們不希望說你把它應該要是一個完整的獨立規劃比如說軌道工程\n\n36\n00:12:09,275 --> 00:12:32,077\n本來就不可能給地方政府所以這個部分就不要把它放在那裡如果各都會的捷運都有中央百分之百來存坐的話那對委員所在的限制可能更吃虧吃虧對啊都會行的軌道都有中央來做那更少錢到軌道工廠有中央做是很好的事情\n\n37\n00:12:33,123 --> 00:12:42,275\n我相信院長也去過新加坡他的主屋是所有的只要世界各國到新加坡都會去看他有一個重點院長麻煩聽我講完他有一個重點他為什麼可以蓋得這麼好\n\n38\n00:12:50,586 --> 00:13:15,502\n因為他的建商就是政府他高達所有的主屋他的主要的業者就是政府那你應該把它做好我不知道我們是不是適合在未來的軌道工程是不是適合由中央去統籌處理這個你們可以在一更好的一個方向去做討論可是我們現在講的是地方政府拿到了這些錢不要把\n\n39\n00:13:16,042 --> 00:13:17,143\n如果是一個跨年度的工程或是一個預算是不是比如什麼\n\n40\n00:13:45,689 --> 00:13:58,835\n軌道就是啊所以軌道就像我們剛剛說的嘛其實它回到就像高速公路你不會因為說你有些錢給地方了那你高速公路就不能做或者就做不了或者就沒有辦法去貫徹執行部長院長我們剛剛提到的是\n\n41\n00:14:02,756 --> 00:14:29,975\n應該不要拿軌道工程這個來談如果他是由台北市由台北市政府要執行的那他在這部分的經費其實跟中央還是可以去談他到底要怎麼樣分配額度的問題可是顯然你們告訴全民的不是這個不是軌道工程比如像其實南投到現在沒有軌道工程可是我們到底會有什麼會受到影響是不是可以有比較具體的一個案例\n\n42\n00:14:33,056 --> 00:14:56,323\n滯水會有什麼問題如果說現在錢少了中央該做的滯水的項目到各縣市去做要嘛就地方出一部分比例的錢要嘛就時間要延長那時間延長是萬萬不得其實不會重大的比如說河川那本來就應該中央因為它是橫跨各個縣市它沒有辦法由地方來做可是地方的排水系統\n\n43\n00:14:57,003 --> 00:15:25,444\n或者像一些水土保持其實是可以由地方政府來做而且他們是有這樣的能力過去還沒有經省的時候水土保持局就是在省政府其實他也一樣做得很好我們希望其實他只要把他事權分就是理清楚應該由中央做的中央做好有些地方可以做的就讓地方政府去好好的做因為有時候你去做你還沒有比如說要為什麼有些花了大錢他到現在水還是積錢\n\n44\n00:15:35,475 --> 00:15:36,759\n好,謝謝馬委員謝謝卓院長下一位請陳廷飛委員詢問\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8308\t9430\t謝謝主席,麻煩請院長請卓院長\n21209\t44845\t阿維好 院長好 院長午安因為今天大概主要是針對我們行政院提出財化法附議的報告那現在進行這些詢問在這裡有幾個問題也想要請教院長我們先從大家其實這個大家也都提到不管是院裡面也好或者\n45825\t61657\t包括立法院也好過去不管是由誰執政包括國民黨執政的時期其實這個已經提了才化法要修法的這個部分已經提了至少二十幾年以上那就這個部分我們其實每一個縣市都有它\n62518\t86363\t每個地方政府都有它不同的條件我們以南投縣為例好了南投縣是一個農業大縣所以其實它的自主裁員並不多它工商不發達所以其實像我們的自籌裁員嚴重的不足以近五年來說它的總裁員年平均大概341億可是自籌裁員只有45億大概只佔了13%\n88444\t101779\t統籌分配稅款對像這樣的農業線或者自籌財源其實比較困難的這個部分其實是非常重要的所以我們也希望透過財化法的修訂其實未來\n102540\t124093\t可以給像這樣子的一個地方政府他們有足夠的財源可以去推動縣民他所需的基本生活跟建設還有就是我們來看看它的土地面積南投縣的土地面積大概佔了全國的11.34%它是九分之一強\n125154\t140401\t可是他大概也是鄰近縣市的三倍大我們比周邊的那個雖然他人口多像彰化可是我們的普及面積其實大得多那為了維護其實人民的基本生活需求\n141889\t156595\t他還是必須要提供像治安消防還有治山防洪水土保持教育醫療交通還有社會福利等等好像很多為什麼在偏鄉他的人口越來越少\n157915\t174647\t幾乎都往周邊的或者都會去去集中包括他很多我剛提到的這些條件包括教育包括醫療包括交通各方面其實他都在限縮他的人口發展那如果像這些我們都需要\n176408\t190838\t持續去維持的這些重要政事他都還要透過更多的資源需要更多的經費跟人力所以如果透過才化法的修正也希望可以改善像以上提到這些問題因為現在面臨的\n193199\t210937\t問題也越來越嚴峻所以地方政府也想盡很多方法比如說剛剛也有委員提到的像有一些補助你生育多少他可以多少補助像對老人家像老年人口都是分布在很多都是還留在原來的家鄉\n211838\t238303\t那像這樣子的部分其實你光靠自籌財源也是不足的目前當然是中央可是有時候中央對於各個縣市他的條件是不一樣所以他能夠做到的太一致性他沒有辦法針對他實際需求去把它做到最好甚至改善到最好那另外就是像南投縣政府他每年配合中央的這些政策或法令他必須要\n239043\t262015\t辦理計劃型的這個補助款的一些配合款那以近五年來說平均每年就高達81億那這些也都不能少因為你只要中央你有一些政策還有一些補助款下來的時候如果你沒有這些配合款那也會嚴重影響到我們像地方政府的一些發展\n263135\t282286\t還有像他的一些地方的照顧所以也因為在這樣財政困窘的情況之下他除了自手裁員少而且要配合款以外那對於所有其他必須要推動的重大的建設就很難推動比如像焚化爐\n283854\t303459\t南投縣有很多大家都說它好山好水觀光發展是重要的一個產業項目可是我們到現在沒有焚化爐它垃圾問題一直是很大的沒有辦法解決的那地方要靠自己的財源那也有困難中央又沒有辦法在這個部分直接\n303979\t332786\t去做有效的補助像過去每一個縣市一線是一個焚化爐這是在過去環保署時代它整個國家的一個政策可是到最後當它足夠的時候我們的就沒有做到了那現在在迫切需要的時候我們常常可能沒有辦法去推動像這樣的一個重大建設另外還有中央一直提到的剛剛我看中委員也有特別提到可是那個有些\n333966\t353809\t聽起來似是而非當你們說有一些要下放比如說醫院過去的省立醫院現在變成部立醫院他可能還是賠錢的狀況可是為什麼會賠錢這在整體的制度上面因為他如果是公立的他有很多是配合政府的政策\n354329\t373097\t那為什麼他沒有辦法因為包括有一些醫療資源有一些醫師還有護理人員的一些人力資源其實他也沒有辦法完全到位所以很多他們因為他不是以賺錢為取向所以他可能也沒有辦法這樣可是你們又說地方\n373817\t401169\t好像不願意接這個都還沒有確切的談到所以市權要怎麼下放這裡一直提到你如果說市權要下授地方政府的這樣的議題應該好好的釐清目前有部分中央機關他執行的市權本來就是精神一波或者合併的機關他包括人力跟經費如果中央延伤要下授這樣的市權所以\n402372\t416058\t人力跟經費你要一併再把它下放下去那整體要去怎麼樣去討論所有相關的你們現在初步算起來大概3000多億以今年的預算下去算大概3753億\n417739\t429288\t那是整體的一些費用的支出就是下放給地方政府我剛剛說了這麼多所以我們剛剛提到的就是像最重要的如果事權中央機關在相關的這些經費跟\n434385\t450960\t還有他的人力一併一波我相信其實也會解決某些問題因為我們現在接下來可能要探討就是比較具體的因為我們看到的都目前為止理由比較隆重也比較抽象我想請教我們裁員減少的具體影響我們沒有看到我看了報告的內容沒有很具體的這些部分\n460749\t468344\t那行政院可不可以提供比較具體的案例來證明說哪些政策會因為裁員減少而無法執行\n469460\t496962\t院長是不是可以舉例一下雖然十多年來地方政府的財政已經從短促到現在有餘額了但是我們認為給地方多一些的財政自主這都是合理應該談的但是我們不願意看到的就是光是從人口跟營業稅來做權重的分比就剛剛陳律委員所說的人口不多營業稅少他分的就少我們更好希望相反透過財政收支法合理的修法把地方財政比較弱的把它拉上來\n497742\t502515\t那大家就會變成一個比較均衡的台灣至於我們所說的影響到哪裡\n503843\t528083\t軌道建設一定會影響 我們的細項都有軌道建設 我們現在在很多六都尤其多的軌道建設我們下放到地方政府三千多億可是我們一年高達將近三兆我們今年通過的是兩到九千兩百億那你減少了三千七百五十億左右你會讓所有的軌道工程沒有辦法進行嗎\n529743\t555191\t3兆1325裡面有1.8兆是法定的支出沒有辦法減的另外我們已經編的這個兩項補助2411跟2501億我們的軌道工程一年大概多少錢編多少錢如果現在已經核定的是好幾千億好幾千億所以它一共是多少就是它如果你因為不要用一年算如果你的軌道工程它總共是多少\n555885\t572508\t我們現在今年的軌道已經核定的是8659億114年編列的是171億我想請教院長我們過去在建那個高速公路的時候其實它是由誰執行的高速公路\n577194\t589449\t現在過去也有省政府他非常的清楚如果你是國家的重大建設他應該由中央你去編列這樣的預算那你不會把它拆開說因為我編了2000億所以我這裡多了\n592612\t612677\t可能要有一部分20%出去以後我這裡就少了20%不是這樣算的你今天要把它很清楚的具體的說明就像現在我們編總預算的時候連那個劃分池啦連什麼補助地方的所有電費全部通通把它\n614161\t629169\t全部都把它放在一起其實這是誤導我現在要說的是當初我們的高速公路為什麼可以建因為它就是一筆預算它就是直接由單一的單位去把它執行完成我們現在會面臨到的是這3750億\n632611\t656869\t左右的預算你分配到地方我用我們中央政府常常講的包括我們的國防部每次在做很多不管你是軍購或者是國防自主他最常講的一句話就是先求有再求好已經二十幾年了大家都希望有更多的預算可以在地方上讓自己可以有\n657469\t680627\t依據我們自己的發展還有我們自己的需求希望可以建構不同的這樣子的一個政治或者所有地方建設的一個推動還包括福利措施可是很難尤其是沒有錢的這樣的縣市我們就面臨到這樣的困難所以我現在要說的是你當你要先求有再求好\n681107\t704015\t我們不過要了過去中央政府也是60%你現在就是這40%因為過去要經省的時候那時候在中心青春本來南投的整體熱鬧度各方面的發展其實還不錯因為省政府有很多的單位其實是在南投縣的可是當他走了以後其實對我們來說急速的萎縮\n704855\t728695\t那像那時候說要精神的時候告訴我們全體國人說每年可以省掉五千億可是我們沒有看到這五千億到底用在哪裡所以到底真的省了這五千億嗎那應該要怎麼樣去做這樣的規劃剛剛我提到就是說院長我們不希望說你把它應該要是一個完整的獨立規劃比如說軌道工程\n729275\t752077\t本來就不可能給地方政府所以這個部分就不要把它放在那裡如果各都會的捷運都有中央百分之百來存坐的話那對委員所在的限制可能更吃虧吃虧對啊都會行的軌道都有中央來做那更少錢到軌道工廠有中央做是很好的事情\n753123\t762275\t我相信院長也去過新加坡他的主屋是所有的只要世界各國到新加坡都會去看他有一個重點院長麻煩聽我講完他有一個重點他為什麼可以蓋得這麼好\n770586\t795502\t因為他的建商就是政府他高達所有的主屋他的主要的業者就是政府那你應該把它做好我不知道我們是不是適合在未來的軌道工程是不是適合由中央去統籌處理這個你們可以在一更好的一個方向去做討論可是我們現在講的是地方政府拿到了這些錢不要把\n796042\t797143\t如果是一個跨年度的工程或是一個預算是不是比如什麼\n825689\t838835\t軌道就是啊所以軌道就像我們剛剛說的嘛其實它回到就像高速公路你不會因為說你有些錢給地方了那你高速公路就不能做或者就做不了或者就沒有辦法去貫徹執行部長 院長我們剛剛提到的是\n842756\t869975\t應該不要拿軌道工程這個來談如果他是由台北市由台北市政府要執行的那他在這部分的經費其實跟中央還是可以去談他到底要怎麼樣分配額度的問題可是顯然你們告訴全民的不是這個不是軌道工程比如像其實南投到現在沒有軌道工程可是我們到底會有什麼會受到影響是不是可以有比較具體的一個案例\n873056\t896323\t滯水會有什麼問題如果說現在錢少了中央該做的滯水的項目到各縣市去做要嘛就地方出一部分比例的錢要嘛就時間要延長那時間延長是萬萬不得其實不會 重大的比如說河川那本來就應該中央因為它是橫跨各個縣市它沒有辦法由地方來做可是地方的排水系統\n897003\t925444\t或者像一些水土保持其實是可以由地方政府來做而且他們是有這樣的能力過去還沒有經省的時候水土保持局就是在省政府其實他也一樣做得很好我們希望其實他只要把他事權分就是理清楚應該由中央做的中央做好有些地方可以做的就讓地方政府去好好的做因為有時候你去做你還沒有比如說要為什麼有些花了大錢他到現在水還是積錢\n935475\t936759\t好,謝謝馬委員謝謝卓院長下一位請陳廷飛委員詢問\n","txt":"謝謝主席,麻煩請院長請卓院長\n阿維好 院長好 院長午安因為今天大概主要是針對我們行政院提出財化法附議的報告那現在進行這些詢問在這裡有幾個問題也想要請教院長我們先從大家其實這個大家也都提到不管是院裡面也好或者\n包括立法院也好過去不管是由誰執政包括國民黨執政的時期其實這個已經提了才化法要修法的這個部分已經提了至少二十幾年以上那就這個部分我們其實每一個縣市都有它\n每個地方政府都有它不同的條件我們以南投縣為例好了南投縣是一個農業大縣所以其實它的自主裁員並不多它工商不發達所以其實像我們的自籌裁員嚴重的不足以近五年來說它的總裁員年平均大概341億可是自籌裁員只有45億大概只佔了13%\n統籌分配稅款對像這樣的農業線或者自籌財源其實比較困難的這個部分其實是非常重要的所以我們也希望透過財化法的修訂其實未來\n可以給像這樣子的一個地方政府他們有足夠的財源可以去推動縣民他所需的基本生活跟建設還有就是我們來看看它的土地面積南投縣的土地面積大概佔了全國的11.34%它是九分之一強\n可是他大概也是鄰近縣市的三倍大我們比周邊的那個雖然他人口多像彰化可是我們的普及面積其實大得多那為了維護其實人民的基本生活需求\n他還是必須要提供像治安消防還有治山防洪水土保持教育醫療交通還有社會福利等等好像很多為什麼在偏鄉他的人口越來越少\n幾乎都往周邊的或者都會去去集中包括他很多我剛提到的這些條件包括教育包括醫療包括交通各方面其實他都在限縮他的人口發展那如果像這些我們都需要\n持續去維持的這些重要政事他都還要透過更多的資源需要更多的經費跟人力所以如果透過才化法的修正也希望可以改善像以上提到這些問題因為現在面臨的\n問題也越來越嚴峻所以地方政府也想盡很多方法比如說剛剛也有委員提到的像有一些補助你生育多少他可以多少補助像對老人家像老年人口都是分布在很多都是還留在原來的家鄉\n那像這樣子的部分其實你光靠自籌財源也是不足的目前當然是中央可是有時候中央對於各個縣市他的條件是不一樣所以他能夠做到的太一致性他沒有辦法針對他實際需求去把它做到最好甚至改善到最好那另外就是像南投縣政府他每年配合中央的這些政策或法令他必須要\n辦理計劃型的這個補助款的一些配合款那以近五年來說平均每年就高達81億那這些也都不能少因為你只要中央你有一些政策還有一些補助款下來的時候如果你沒有這些配合款那也會嚴重影響到我們像地方政府的一些發展\n還有像他的一些地方的照顧所以也因為在這樣財政困窘的情況之下他除了自手裁員少而且要配合款以外那對於所有其他必須要推動的重大的建設就很難推動比如像焚化爐\n南投縣有很多大家都說它好山好水觀光發展是重要的一個產業項目可是我們到現在沒有焚化爐它垃圾問題一直是很大的沒有辦法解決的那地方要靠自己的財源那也有困難中央又沒有辦法在這個部分直接\n去做有效的補助像過去每一個縣市一線是一個焚化爐這是在過去環保署時代它整個國家的一個政策可是到最後當它足夠的時候我們的就沒有做到了那現在在迫切需要的時候我們常常可能沒有辦法去推動像這樣的一個重大建設另外還有中央一直提到的剛剛我看中委員也有特別提到可是那個有些\n聽起來似是而非當你們說有一些要下放比如說醫院過去的省立醫院現在變成部立醫院他可能還是賠錢的狀況可是為什麼會賠錢這在整體的制度上面因為他如果是公立的他有很多是配合政府的政策\n那為什麼他沒有辦法因為包括有一些醫療資源有一些醫師還有護理人員的一些人力資源其實他也沒有辦法完全到位所以很多他們因為他不是以賺錢為取向所以他可能也沒有辦法這樣可是你們又說地方\n好像不願意接這個都還沒有確切的談到所以市權要怎麼下放這裡一直提到你如果說市權要下授地方政府的這樣的議題應該好好的釐清目前有部分中央機關他執行的市權本來就是精神一波或者合併的機關他包括人力跟經費如果中央延伤要下授這樣的市權所以\n人力跟經費你要一併再把它下放下去那整體要去怎麼樣去討論所有相關的你們現在初步算起來大概3000多億以今年的預算下去算大概3753億\n那是整體的一些費用的支出就是下放給地方政府我剛剛說了這麼多所以我們剛剛提到的就是像最重要的如果事權中央機關在相關的這些經費跟\n還有他的人力一併一波我相信其實也會解決某些問題因為我們現在接下來可能要探討就是比較具體的因為我們看到的都目前為止理由比較隆重也比較抽象我想請教我們裁員減少的具體影響我們沒有看到我看了報告的內容沒有很具體的這些部分\n那行政院可不可以提供比較具體的案例來證明說哪些政策會因為裁員減少而無法執行\n院長是不是可以舉例一下雖然十多年來地方政府的財政已經從短促到現在有餘額了但是我們認為給地方多一些的財政自主這都是合理應該談的但是我們不願意看到的就是光是從人口跟營業稅來做權重的分比就剛剛陳律委員所說的人口不多營業稅少他分的就少我們更好希望相反透過財政收支法合理的修法把地方財政比較弱的把它拉上來\n那大家就會變成一個比較均衡的台灣至於我們所說的影響到哪裡\n軌道建設一定會影響 我們的細項都有軌道建設 我們現在在很多六都尤其多的軌道建設我們下放到地方政府三千多億可是我們一年高達將近三兆我們今年通過的是兩到九千兩百億那你減少了三千七百五十億左右你會讓所有的軌道工程沒有辦法進行嗎\n3兆1325裡面有1.8兆是法定的支出沒有辦法減的另外我們已經編的這個兩項補助2411跟2501億我們的軌道工程一年大概多少錢編多少錢如果現在已經核定的是好幾千億好幾千億所以它一共是多少就是它如果你因為不要用一年算如果你的軌道工程它總共是多少\n我們現在今年的軌道已經核定的是8659億114年編列的是171億我想請教院長我們過去在建那個高速公路的時候其實它是由誰執行的高速公路\n現在過去也有省政府他非常的清楚如果你是國家的重大建設他應該由中央你去編列這樣的預算那你不會把它拆開說因為我編了2000億所以我這裡多了\n可能要有一部分20%出去以後我這裡就少了20%不是這樣算的你今天要把它很清楚的具體的說明就像現在我們編總預算的時候連那個劃分池啦連什麼補助地方的所有電費全部通通把它\n全部都把它放在一起其實這是誤導我現在要說的是當初我們的高速公路為什麼可以建因為它就是一筆預算它就是直接由單一的單位去把它執行完成我們現在會面臨到的是這3750億\n左右的預算你分配到地方我用我們中央政府常常講的包括我們的國防部每次在做很多不管你是軍購或者是國防自主他最常講的一句話就是先求有再求好已經二十幾年了大家都希望有更多的預算可以在地方上讓自己可以有\n依據我們自己的發展還有我們自己的需求希望可以建構不同的這樣子的一個政治或者所有地方建設的一個推動還包括福利措施可是很難尤其是沒有錢的這樣的縣市我們就面臨到這樣的困難所以我現在要說的是你當你要先求有再求好\n我們不過要了過去中央政府也是60%你現在就是這40%因為過去要經省的時候那時候在中心青春本來南投的整體熱鬧度各方面的發展其實還不錯因為省政府有很多的單位其實是在南投縣的可是當他走了以後其實對我們來說急速的萎縮\n那像那時候說要精神的時候告訴我們全體國人說每年可以省掉五千億可是我們沒有看到這五千億到底用在哪裡所以到底真的省了這五千億嗎那應該要怎麼樣去做這樣的規劃剛剛我提到就是說院長我們不希望說你把它應該要是一個完整的獨立規劃比如說軌道工程\n本來就不可能給地方政府所以這個部分就不要把它放在那裡如果各都會的捷運都有中央百分之百來存坐的話那對委員所在的限制可能更吃虧吃虧對啊都會行的軌道都有中央來做那更少錢到軌道工廠有中央做是很好的事情\n我相信院長也去過新加坡他的主屋是所有的只要世界各國到新加坡都會去看他有一個重點院長麻煩聽我講完他有一個重點他為什麼可以蓋得這麼好\n因為他的建商就是政府他高達所有的主屋他的主要的業者就是政府那你應該把它做好我不知道我們是不是適合在未來的軌道工程是不是適合由中央去統籌處理這個你們可以在一更好的一個方向去做討論可是我們現在講的是地方政府拿到了這些錢不要把\n如果是一個跨年度的工程或是一個預算是不是比如什麼\n軌道就是啊所以軌道就像我們剛剛說的嘛其實它回到就像高速公路你不會因為說你有些錢給地方了那你高速公路就不能做或者就做不了或者就沒有辦法去貫徹執行部長 院長我們剛剛提到的是\n應該不要拿軌道工程這個來談如果他是由台北市由台北市政府要執行的那他在這部分的經費其實跟中央還是可以去談他到底要怎麼樣分配額度的問題可是顯然你們告訴全民的不是這個不是軌道工程比如像其實南投到現在沒有軌道工程可是我們到底會有什麼會受到影響是不是可以有比較具體的一個案例\n滯水會有什麼問題如果說現在錢少了中央該做的滯水的項目到各縣市去做要嘛就地方出一部分比例的錢要嘛就時間要延長那時間延長是萬萬不得其實不會 重大的比如說河川那本來就應該中央因為它是橫跨各個縣市它沒有辦法由地方來做可是地方的排水系統\n或者像一些水土保持其實是可以由地方政府來做而且他們是有這樣的能力過去還沒有經省的時候水土保持局就是在省政府其實他也一樣做得很好我們希望其實他只要把他事權分就是理清楚應該由中央做的中央做好有些地方可以做的就讓地方政府去好好的做因為有時候你去做你還沒有比如說要為什麼有些花了大錢他到現在水還是積錢\n好,謝謝馬委員謝謝卓院長下一位請陳廷飛委員詢問\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.308 --> 00:09.430\n謝謝主席,麻煩請院長請卓院長\n\n00:21.209 --> 00:44.845\n阿維好院長好院長午安因為今天大概主要是針對我們行政院提出財化法附議的報告那現在進行這些詢問在這裡有幾個問題也想要請教院長我們先從大家其實這個大家也都提到不管是院裡面也好或者\n\n00:45.825 --> 01:01.657\n包括立法院也好過去不管是由誰執政包括國民黨執政的時期其實這個已經提了才化法要修法的這個部分已經提了至少二十幾年以上那就這個部分我們其實每一個縣市都有它\n\n01:02.518 --> 01:26.363\n每個地方政府都有它不同的條件我們以南投縣為例好了南投縣是一個農業大縣所以其實它的自主裁員並不多它工商不發達所以其實像我們的自籌裁員嚴重的不足以近五年來說它的總裁員年平均大概341億可是自籌裁員只有45億大概只佔了13%\n\n01:28.444 --> 01:41.779\n統籌分配稅款對像這樣的農業線或者自籌財源其實比較困難的這個部分其實是非常重要的所以我們也希望透過財化法的修訂其實未來\n\n01:42.540 --> 02:04.093\n可以給像這樣子的一個地方政府他們有足夠的財源可以去推動縣民他所需的基本生活跟建設還有就是我們來看看它的土地面積南投縣的土地面積大概佔了全國的11.34%它是九分之一強\n\n02:05.154 --> 02:20.401\n可是他大概也是鄰近縣市的三倍大我們比周邊的那個雖然他人口多像彰化可是我們的普及面積其實大得多那為了維護其實人民的基本生活需求\n\n02:21.889 --> 02:36.595\n他還是必須要提供像治安消防還有治山防洪水土保持教育醫療交通還有社會福利等等好像很多為什麼在偏鄉他的人口越來越少\n\n02:37.915 --> 02:54.647\n幾乎都往周邊的或者都會去去集中包括他很多我剛提到的這些條件包括教育包括醫療包括交通各方面其實他都在限縮他的人口發展那如果像這些我們都需要\n\n02:56.408 --> 03:10.838\n持續去維持的這些重要政事他都還要透過更多的資源需要更多的經費跟人力所以如果透過才化法的修正也希望可以改善像以上提到這些問題因為現在面臨的\n\n03:13.199 --> 03:30.937\n問題也越來越嚴峻所以地方政府也想盡很多方法比如說剛剛也有委員提到的像有一些補助你生育多少他可以多少補助像對老人家像老年人口都是分布在很多都是還留在原來的家鄉\n\n03:31.838 --> 03:58.303\n那像這樣子的部分其實你光靠自籌財源也是不足的目前當然是中央可是有時候中央對於各個縣市他的條件是不一樣所以他能夠做到的太一致性他沒有辦法針對他實際需求去把它做到最好甚至改善到最好那另外就是像南投縣政府他每年配合中央的這些政策或法令他必須要\n\n03:59.043 --> 04:22.015\n辦理計劃型的這個補助款的一些配合款那以近五年來說平均每年就高達81億那這些也都不能少因為你只要中央你有一些政策還有一些補助款下來的時候如果你沒有這些配合款那也會嚴重影響到我們像地方政府的一些發展\n\n04:23.135 --> 04:42.286\n還有像他的一些地方的照顧所以也因為在這樣財政困窘的情況之下他除了自手裁員少而且要配合款以外那對於所有其他必須要推動的重大的建設就很難推動比如像焚化爐\n\n04:43.854 --> 05:03.459\n南投縣有很多大家都說它好山好水觀光發展是重要的一個產業項目可是我們到現在沒有焚化爐它垃圾問題一直是很大的沒有辦法解決的那地方要靠自己的財源那也有困難中央又沒有辦法在這個部分直接\n\n05:03.979 --> 05:32.786\n去做有效的補助像過去每一個縣市一線是一個焚化爐這是在過去環保署時代它整個國家的一個政策可是到最後當它足夠的時候我們的就沒有做到了那現在在迫切需要的時候我們常常可能沒有辦法去推動像這樣的一個重大建設另外還有中央一直提到的剛剛我看中委員也有特別提到可是那個有些\n\n05:33.966 --> 05:53.809\n聽起來似是而非當你們說有一些要下放比如說醫院過去的省立醫院現在變成部立醫院他可能還是賠錢的狀況可是為什麼會賠錢這在整體的制度上面因為他如果是公立的他有很多是配合政府的政策\n\n05:54.329 --> 06:13.097\n那為什麼他沒有辦法因為包括有一些醫療資源有一些醫師還有護理人員的一些人力資源其實他也沒有辦法完全到位所以很多他們因為他不是以賺錢為取向所以他可能也沒有辦法這樣可是你們又說地方\n\n06:13.817 --> 06:41.169\n好像不願意接這個都還沒有確切的談到所以市權要怎麼下放這裡一直提到你如果說市權要下授地方政府的這樣的議題應該好好的釐清目前有部分中央機關他執行的市權本來就是精神一波或者合併的機關他包括人力跟經費如果中央延伤要下授這樣的市權所以\n\n06:42.372 --> 06:56.058\n人力跟經費你要一併再把它下放下去那整體要去怎麼樣去討論所有相關的你們現在初步算起來大概3000多億以今年的預算下去算大概3753億\n\n06:57.739 --> 07:09.288\n那是整體的一些費用的支出就是下放給地方政府我剛剛說了這麼多所以我們剛剛提到的就是像最重要的如果事權中央機關在相關的這些經費跟\n\n07:14.385 --> 07:30.960\n還有他的人力一併一波我相信其實也會解決某些問題因為我們現在接下來可能要探討就是比較具體的因為我們看到的都目前為止理由比較隆重也比較抽象我想請教我們裁員減少的具體影響我們沒有看到我看了報告的內容沒有很具體的這些部分\n\n07:40.749 --> 07:48.344\n那行政院可不可以提供比較具體的案例來證明說哪些政策會因為裁員減少而無法執行\n\n07:49.460 --> 08:16.962\n院長是不是可以舉例一下雖然十多年來地方政府的財政已經從短促到現在有餘額了但是我們認為給地方多一些的財政自主這都是合理應該談的但是我們不願意看到的就是光是從人口跟營業稅來做權重的分比就剛剛陳律委員所說的人口不多營業稅少他分的就少我們更好希望相反透過財政收支法合理的修法把地方財政比較弱的把它拉上來\n\n08:17.742 --> 08:22.515\n那大家就會變成一個比較均衡的台灣至於我們所說的影響到哪裡\n\n08:23.843 --> 08:48.083\n軌道建設一定會影響我們的細項都有軌道建設我們現在在很多六都尤其多的軌道建設我們下放到地方政府三千多億可是我們一年高達將近三兆我們今年通過的是兩到九千兩百億那你減少了三千七百五十億左右你會讓所有的軌道工程沒有辦法進行嗎\n\n08:49.743 --> 09:15.191\n3兆1325裡面有1.8兆是法定的支出沒有辦法減的另外我們已經編的這個兩項補助2411跟2501億我們的軌道工程一年大概多少錢編多少錢如果現在已經核定的是好幾千億好幾千億所以它一共是多少就是它如果你因為不要用一年算如果你的軌道工程它總共是多少\n\n09:15.885 --> 09:32.508\n我們現在今年的軌道已經核定的是8659億114年編列的是171億我想請教院長我們過去在建那個高速公路的時候其實它是由誰執行的高速公路\n\n09:37.194 --> 09:49.449\n現在過去也有省政府他非常的清楚如果你是國家的重大建設他應該由中央你去編列這樣的預算那你不會把它拆開說因為我編了2000億所以我這裡多了\n\n09:52.612 --> 10:12.677\n可能要有一部分20%出去以後我這裡就少了20%不是這樣算的你今天要把它很清楚的具體的說明就像現在我們編總預算的時候連那個劃分池啦連什麼補助地方的所有電費全部通通把它\n\n10:14.161 --> 10:29.169\n全部都把它放在一起其實這是誤導我現在要說的是當初我們的高速公路為什麼可以建因為它就是一筆預算它就是直接由單一的單位去把它執行完成我們現在會面臨到的是這3750億\n\n10:32.611 --> 10:56.869\n左右的預算你分配到地方我用我們中央政府常常講的包括我們的國防部每次在做很多不管你是軍購或者是國防自主他最常講的一句話就是先求有再求好已經二十幾年了大家都希望有更多的預算可以在地方上讓自己可以有\n\n10:57.469 --> 11:20.627\n依據我們自己的發展還有我們自己的需求希望可以建構不同的這樣子的一個政治或者所有地方建設的一個推動還包括福利措施可是很難尤其是沒有錢的這樣的縣市我們就面臨到這樣的困難所以我現在要說的是你當你要先求有再求好\n\n11:21.107 --> 11:44.015\n我們不過要了過去中央政府也是60%你現在就是這40%因為過去要經省的時候那時候在中心青春本來南投的整體熱鬧度各方面的發展其實還不錯因為省政府有很多的單位其實是在南投縣的可是當他走了以後其實對我們來說急速的萎縮\n\n11:44.855 --> 12:08.695\n那像那時候說要精神的時候告訴我們全體國人說每年可以省掉五千億可是我們沒有看到這五千億到底用在哪裡所以到底真的省了這五千億嗎那應該要怎麼樣去做這樣的規劃剛剛我提到就是說院長我們不希望說你把它應該要是一個完整的獨立規劃比如說軌道工程\n\n12:09.275 --> 12:32.077\n本來就不可能給地方政府所以這個部分就不要把它放在那裡如果各都會的捷運都有中央百分之百來存坐的話那對委員所在的限制可能更吃虧吃虧對啊都會行的軌道都有中央來做那更少錢到軌道工廠有中央做是很好的事情\n\n12:33.123 --> 12:42.275\n我相信院長也去過新加坡他的主屋是所有的只要世界各國到新加坡都會去看他有一個重點院長麻煩聽我講完他有一個重點他為什麼可以蓋得這麼好\n\n12:50.586 --> 13:15.502\n因為他的建商就是政府他高達所有的主屋他的主要的業者就是政府那你應該把它做好我不知道我們是不是適合在未來的軌道工程是不是適合由中央去統籌處理這個你們可以在一更好的一個方向去做討論可是我們現在講的是地方政府拿到了這些錢不要把\n\n13:16.042 --> 13:17.143\n如果是一個跨年度的工程或是一個預算是不是比如什麼\n\n13:45.689 --> 13:58.835\n軌道就是啊所以軌道就像我們剛剛說的嘛其實它回到就像高速公路你不會因為說你有些錢給地方了那你高速公路就不能做或者就做不了或者就沒有辦法去貫徹執行部長院長我們剛剛提到的是\n\n14:02.756 --> 14:29.975\n應該不要拿軌道工程這個來談如果他是由台北市由台北市政府要執行的那他在這部分的經費其實跟中央還是可以去談他到底要怎麼樣分配額度的問題可是顯然你們告訴全民的不是這個不是軌道工程比如像其實南投到現在沒有軌道工程可是我們到底會有什麼會受到影響是不是可以有比較具體的一個案例\n\n14:33.056 --> 14:56.323\n滯水會有什麼問題如果說現在錢少了中央該做的滯水的項目到各縣市去做要嘛就地方出一部分比例的錢要嘛就時間要延長那時間延長是萬萬不得其實不會重大的比如說河川那本來就應該中央因為它是橫跨各個縣市它沒有辦法由地方來做可是地方的排水系統\n\n14:57.003 --> 15:25.444\n或者像一些水土保持其實是可以由地方政府來做而且他們是有這樣的能力過去還沒有經省的時候水土保持局就是在省政府其實他也一樣做得很好我們希望其實他只要把他事權分就是理清楚應該由中央做的中央做好有些地方可以做的就讓地方政府去好好的做因為有時候你去做你還沒有比如說要為什麼有些花了大錢他到現在水還是積錢\n\n15:35.475 --> 15:36.759\n好,謝謝馬委員謝謝卓院長下一位請陳廷飛委員詢問\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.308,"end":9.43,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩請院長請卓院長"},{"start":21.209,"end":44.845,"text":"阿維好 院長好 院長午安因為今天大概主要是針對我們行政院提出財化法附議的報告那現在進行這些詢問在這裡有幾個問題也想要請教院長我們先從大家其實這個大家也都提到不管是院裡面也好或者"},{"start":45.825,"end":61.657,"text":"包括立法院也好過去不管是由誰執政包括國民黨執政的時期其實這個已經提了才化法要修法的這個部分已經提了至少二十幾年以上那就這個部分我們其實每一個縣市都有它"},{"start":62.518,"end":86.363,"text":"每個地方政府都有它不同的條件我們以南投縣為例好了南投縣是一個農業大縣所以其實它的自主裁員並不多它工商不發達所以其實像我們的自籌裁員嚴重的不足以近五年來說它的總裁員年平均大概341億可是自籌裁員只有45億大概只佔了13%"},{"start":88.444,"end":101.779,"text":"統籌分配稅款對像這樣的農業線或者自籌財源其實比較困難的這個部分其實是非常重要的所以我們也希望透過財化法的修訂其實未來"},{"start":102.54,"end":124.093,"text":"可以給像這樣子的一個地方政府他們有足夠的財源可以去推動縣民他所需的基本生活跟建設還有就是我們來看看它的土地面積南投縣的土地面積大概佔了全國的11.34%它是九分之一強"},{"start":125.154,"end":140.401,"text":"可是他大概也是鄰近縣市的三倍大我們比周邊的那個雖然他人口多像彰化可是我們的普及面積其實大得多那為了維護其實人民的基本生活需求"},{"start":141.889,"end":156.595,"text":"他還是必須要提供像治安消防還有治山防洪水土保持教育醫療交通還有社會福利等等好像很多為什麼在偏鄉他的人口越來越少"},{"start":157.915,"end":174.647,"text":"幾乎都往周邊的或者都會去去集中包括他很多我剛提到的這些條件包括教育包括醫療包括交通各方面其實他都在限縮他的人口發展那如果像這些我們都需要"},{"start":176.408,"end":190.838,"text":"持續去維持的這些重要政事他都還要透過更多的資源需要更多的經費跟人力所以如果透過才化法的修正也希望可以改善像以上提到這些問題因為現在面臨的"},{"start":193.199,"end":210.937,"text":"問題也越來越嚴峻所以地方政府也想盡很多方法比如說剛剛也有委員提到的像有一些補助你生育多少他可以多少補助像對老人家像老年人口都是分布在很多都是還留在原來的家鄉"},{"start":211.838,"end":238.303,"text":"那像這樣子的部分其實你光靠自籌財源也是不足的目前當然是中央可是有時候中央對於各個縣市他的條件是不一樣所以他能夠做到的太一致性他沒有辦法針對他實際需求去把它做到最好甚至改善到最好那另外就是像南投縣政府他每年配合中央的這些政策或法令他必須要"},{"start":239.043,"end":262.015,"text":"辦理計劃型的這個補助款的一些配合款那以近五年來說平均每年就高達81億那這些也都不能少因為你只要中央你有一些政策還有一些補助款下來的時候如果你沒有這些配合款那也會嚴重影響到我們像地方政府的一些發展"},{"start":263.135,"end":282.286,"text":"還有像他的一些地方的照顧所以也因為在這樣財政困窘的情況之下他除了自手裁員少而且要配合款以外那對於所有其他必須要推動的重大的建設就很難推動比如像焚化爐"},{"start":283.854,"end":303.459,"text":"南投縣有很多大家都說它好山好水觀光發展是重要的一個產業項目可是我們到現在沒有焚化爐它垃圾問題一直是很大的沒有辦法解決的那地方要靠自己的財源那也有困難中央又沒有辦法在這個部分直接"},{"start":303.979,"end":332.786,"text":"去做有效的補助像過去每一個縣市一線是一個焚化爐這是在過去環保署時代它整個國家的一個政策可是到最後當它足夠的時候我們的就沒有做到了那現在在迫切需要的時候我們常常可能沒有辦法去推動像這樣的一個重大建設另外還有中央一直提到的剛剛我看中委員也有特別提到可是那個有些"},{"start":333.966,"end":353.809,"text":"聽起來似是而非當你們說有一些要下放比如說醫院過去的省立醫院現在變成部立醫院他可能還是賠錢的狀況可是為什麼會賠錢這在整體的制度上面因為他如果是公立的他有很多是配合政府的政策"},{"start":354.329,"end":373.097,"text":"那為什麼他沒有辦法因為包括有一些醫療資源有一些醫師還有護理人員的一些人力資源其實他也沒有辦法完全到位所以很多他們因為他不是以賺錢為取向所以他可能也沒有辦法這樣可是你們又說地方"},{"start":373.817,"end":401.169,"text":"好像不願意接這個都還沒有確切的談到所以市權要怎麼下放這裡一直提到你如果說市權要下授地方政府的這樣的議題應該好好的釐清目前有部分中央機關他執行的市權本來就是精神一波或者合併的機關他包括人力跟經費如果中央延伤要下授這樣的市權所以"},{"start":402.372,"end":416.058,"text":"人力跟經費你要一併再把它下放下去那整體要去怎麼樣去討論所有相關的你們現在初步算起來大概3000多億以今年的預算下去算大概3753億"},{"start":417.739,"end":429.288,"text":"那是整體的一些費用的支出就是下放給地方政府我剛剛說了這麼多所以我們剛剛提到的就是像最重要的如果事權中央機關在相關的這些經費跟"},{"start":434.385,"end":450.96,"text":"還有他的人力一併一波我相信其實也會解決某些問題因為我們現在接下來可能要探討就是比較具體的因為我們看到的都目前為止理由比較隆重也比較抽象我想請教我們裁員減少的具體影響我們沒有看到我看了報告的內容沒有很具體的這些部分"},{"start":460.749,"end":468.344,"text":"那行政院可不可以提供比較具體的案例來證明說哪些政策會因為裁員減少而無法執行"},{"start":469.46,"end":496.962,"text":"院長是不是可以舉例一下雖然十多年來地方政府的財政已經從短促到現在有餘額了但是我們認為給地方多一些的財政自主這都是合理應該談的但是我們不願意看到的就是光是從人口跟營業稅來做權重的分比就剛剛陳律委員所說的人口不多營業稅少他分的就少我們更好希望相反透過財政收支法合理的修法把地方財政比較弱的把它拉上來"},{"start":497.742,"end":502.515,"text":"那大家就會變成一個比較均衡的台灣至於我們所說的影響到哪裡"},{"start":503.843,"end":528.083,"text":"軌道建設一定會影響 我們的細項都有軌道建設 我們現在在很多六都尤其多的軌道建設我們下放到地方政府三千多億可是我們一年高達將近三兆我們今年通過的是兩到九千兩百億那你減少了三千七百五十億左右你會讓所有的軌道工程沒有辦法進行嗎"},{"start":529.743,"end":555.191,"text":"3兆1325裡面有1.8兆是法定的支出沒有辦法減的另外我們已經編的這個兩項補助2411跟2501億我們的軌道工程一年大概多少錢編多少錢如果現在已經核定的是好幾千億好幾千億所以它一共是多少就是它如果你因為不要用一年算如果你的軌道工程它總共是多少"},{"start":555.885,"end":572.508,"text":"我們現在今年的軌道已經核定的是8659億114年編列的是171億我想請教院長我們過去在建那個高速公路的時候其實它是由誰執行的高速公路"},{"start":577.194,"end":589.449,"text":"現在過去也有省政府他非常的清楚如果你是國家的重大建設他應該由中央你去編列這樣的預算那你不會把它拆開說因為我編了2000億所以我這裡多了"},{"start":592.612,"end":612.677,"text":"可能要有一部分20%出去以後我這裡就少了20%不是這樣算的你今天要把它很清楚的具體的說明就像現在我們編總預算的時候連那個劃分池啦連什麼補助地方的所有電費全部通通把它"},{"start":614.161,"end":629.169,"text":"全部都把它放在一起其實這是誤導我現在要說的是當初我們的高速公路為什麼可以建因為它就是一筆預算它就是直接由單一的單位去把它執行完成我們現在會面臨到的是這3750億"},{"start":632.611,"end":656.869,"text":"左右的預算你分配到地方我用我們中央政府常常講的包括我們的國防部每次在做很多不管你是軍購或者是國防自主他最常講的一句話就是先求有再求好已經二十幾年了大家都希望有更多的預算可以在地方上讓自己可以有"},{"start":657.469,"end":680.627,"text":"依據我們自己的發展還有我們自己的需求希望可以建構不同的這樣子的一個政治或者所有地方建設的一個推動還包括福利措施可是很難尤其是沒有錢的這樣的縣市我們就面臨到這樣的困難所以我現在要說的是你當你要先求有再求好"},{"start":681.107,"end":704.015,"text":"我們不過要了過去中央政府也是60%你現在就是這40%因為過去要經省的時候那時候在中心青春本來南投的整體熱鬧度各方面的發展其實還不錯因為省政府有很多的單位其實是在南投縣的可是當他走了以後其實對我們來說急速的萎縮"},{"start":704.855,"end":728.695,"text":"那像那時候說要精神的時候告訴我們全體國人說每年可以省掉五千億可是我們沒有看到這五千億到底用在哪裡所以到底真的省了這五千億嗎那應該要怎麼樣去做這樣的規劃剛剛我提到就是說院長我們不希望說你把它應該要是一個完整的獨立規劃比如說軌道工程"},{"start":729.275,"end":752.077,"text":"本來就不可能給地方政府所以這個部分就不要把它放在那裡如果各都會的捷運都有中央百分之百來存坐的話那對委員所在的限制可能更吃虧吃虧對啊都會行的軌道都有中央來做那更少錢到軌道工廠有中央做是很好的事情"},{"start":753.123,"end":762.275,"text":"我相信院長也去過新加坡他的主屋是所有的只要世界各國到新加坡都會去看他有一個重點院長麻煩聽我講完他有一個重點他為什麼可以蓋得這麼好"},{"start":770.586,"end":795.502,"text":"因為他的建商就是政府他高達所有的主屋他的主要的業者就是政府那你應該把它做好我不知道我們是不是適合在未來的軌道工程是不是適合由中央去統籌處理這個你們可以在一更好的一個方向去做討論可是我們現在講的是地方政府拿到了這些錢不要把"},{"start":796.042,"end":797.143,"text":"如果是一個跨年度的工程或是一個預算是不是比如什麼"},{"start":825.689,"end":838.835,"text":"軌道就是啊所以軌道就像我們剛剛說的嘛其實它回到就像高速公路你不會因為說你有些錢給地方了那你高速公路就不能做或者就做不了或者就沒有辦法去貫徹執行部長 院長我們剛剛提到的是"},{"start":842.756,"end":869.975,"text":"應該不要拿軌道工程這個來談如果他是由台北市由台北市政府要執行的那他在這部分的經費其實跟中央還是可以去談他到底要怎麼樣分配額度的問題可是顯然你們告訴全民的不是這個不是軌道工程比如像其實南投到現在沒有軌道工程可是我們到底會有什麼會受到影響是不是可以有比較具體的一個案例"},{"start":873.056,"end":896.323,"text":"滯水會有什麼問題如果說現在錢少了中央該做的滯水的項目到各縣市去做要嘛就地方出一部分比例的錢要嘛就時間要延長那時間延長是萬萬不得其實不會 重大的比如說河川那本來就應該中央因為它是橫跨各個縣市它沒有辦法由地方來做可是地方的排水系統"},{"start":897.003,"end":925.444,"text":"或者像一些水土保持其實是可以由地方政府來做而且他們是有這樣的能力過去還沒有經省的時候水土保持局就是在省政府其實他也一樣做得很好我們希望其實他只要把他事權分就是理清楚應該由中央做的中央做好有些地方可以做的就讓地方政府去好好的做因為有時候你去做你還沒有比如說要為什麼有些花了大錢他到現在水還是積錢"},{"start":935.475,"end":936.759,"text":"好,謝謝馬委員謝謝卓院長下一位請陳廷飛委員詢問"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":128,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（14時47分）謝謝主席，麻煩請院長。"],["主席：請卓院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：院長好，院長午安。今天主要是因為行政院針對財劃法提出覆議案而進行詢答，在這裡有幾個問題想要請教院長。其實大家也都提到，不管是院裡面也好，包括立法院也好，過去不管是由誰執政，包括國民黨執政時期，要求財劃法的修法已經提了至少二十幾年以上。就這個部分，其實每個縣市、每個地方政府都有它不同的條件，我們以南投縣為例，南投縣是農業大縣，自主財源並不多，因為工商不發達的關係，所以我們的自籌財源嚴重不足。以近5年來說，它的總財源年平均大概341億，但自籌財源只有45億，大概只占了13%。而統籌分配稅款對於像這樣的農業縣或是自籌財源比較困難的縣市來說，其實是非常重要的，所以我們也希望透過財劃法的修訂，未來可以給像這樣的地方政府有足夠的財源可以去推動縣民所需的基本生活跟建設。","南投縣的土地面積大概占全國的11.34%，是占九分之一強，大概是鄰近縣市的3倍大，周邊縣市的人口雖然比較多，像彰化，但我們南投的土地面積其實比它大得多，為了維護人民的基本生活需求，地方政府還是必須要提供像治安、消防，還有治山防洪、水土保持、教育、醫療、交通，還有社會福利等等諸多政事。為什麼偏鄉的人口越來越少？幾乎都往周邊的都會區去集中，包括很多我剛剛提到的這些條件，包括教育，包括醫療，包括交通各方面，其實都在限縮它的人口發展。像這些我們需要持續去維持的重要政事都還要更多的資源，需要更多的經費跟人力，所以，如果透過財劃法的修正，也希望可以改善以上提到的這些問題。","因為現在面臨的問題也越來越嚴峻，所以地方政府也想盡很多方法，比如說剛剛也有委員提到的，像有些補助，你生育多少他可以多少補助，相對於老人家，像老年人口的分布，很多都還是留在原來的家鄉，像這樣的部分，其實光靠自籌財源也是不足的……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["馬委員文君：目前當然是中央，可是有時候中央對於各個縣市，因為各縣市的條件不一樣，所以他能夠做到的太一致性，他沒有辦法針對地方的實際需求去做到最好，甚至改善到最好。另外，像南投縣政府每年配合中央的政策或法令必須要籌措計畫型補助款的配合款，以近五年來說，平均每年就高達81億，這些也都不能少，因為只要中央有一些政策，還有一些補助款下來的時候，如果地方沒有編列配合款，那也會嚴重影響到地方的發展，還有對地方民眾的照顧。所以，也因為在這樣財政困窘的情況之下，地方政府除了自籌財源少而且要配合款以外，對於所有其他必須要推動的重大建設就很難推動，比如像焚化爐。","南投縣有很多……大家都說它好山好水，觀光發展是重要的一個產業項目，可是我們到現在沒有焚化爐，垃圾一直是很大的、沒有辦法解決的問題，地方要靠自己的財源也有困難，中央又沒有辦法在這個部分直接去做有效的補助。像過去在環保署時代，雖然整個國家有一縣市一焚化爐的政策，可是到最後當它的數量足夠的時候，我們的就沒有做到了，現在在迫切需要的時候，我們常常可能沒有辦法去推動像這樣的一個重大建設。","另外還有中央一直提到的，剛剛鍾委員也有特別提到，可是那個聽起來有些似是而非。當你們說有一些事權要下放，比如說醫院，過去的省立醫院現在變成部立醫院，它可能還是賠錢的狀況，可是為什麼會賠錢？在整體的制度上面，因為它是公立的，它有很多是配合政府的政策，那為什麼它沒有辦法？因為包括有一些醫療資源，有一些醫師，還有護理人員的一些人力資源，其實它也沒有辦法完全到位，所以有很多因素，因為它不是以賺錢為取向，所以它可能也沒有辦法這樣，可是你們又說，地方好像不願意接，這個都還沒有確切的談到。所以事權要怎麼下放？這裡一直提到，如果是事權要下授地方政府的議題，應該好好的釐清，目前有部分中央機關執行的事權本來就是精省移撥或者合併的機關，包括人力跟經費，如果中央研商要下授相關的事權，人力跟經費你要一併把它下放下去。關於整體要怎麼樣去討論所有相關的，你們現在初步算起來大概三千多億，以今年的預算下去算，大概3,753億，那是整體的一些費用的支出，就是下放給地方政府。","我剛剛說了這麼多，我們剛剛提到的像是最重要的，如果中央機關將相關事權的經費跟人力一併移撥，我相信其實也會解決某些問題。而我們接下來可能要探討比較具體的部分，因為到目前為止，我們看到的理由都比較籠統也比較抽象，我想請教我們財源減少的具體影響，但我看了報告的內容，這些部分並沒有很具體，行政院可不可以提供比較具體的案例來證明哪些政策會因為財源減少而無法執行？院長可不可以舉例一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，雖然十多年來地方政府的財政已經從短絀到現在有餘額了，但是我們認為給地方多一些的財政自主，這都是合理、應該談的，但是我們不願意看到的是，光是從人口跟營業稅來做權重的分比，誠如剛剛委員所說的，人口不多、營業稅少，它分的就少，我們剛好希望相反，透過財政收支劃分法合理的修法，把地方財政比較弱的拉上來，那就會變成一個比較均衡的臺灣，所以委員所說的影響到哪裡一事，軌道建設一定會有影響，我們的細項都有，像六都有許多的軌道建設，公路……"],["馬委員文君：我們下放到地方政府三千多億，可是我們一年高達將近3兆，今年通過的是2兆9,200億，你減少了三千七百五十億左右，會讓所有的軌道工程沒有辦法進行嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：3兆1,325億裡面，有1.8兆是法定支出，沒有辦法減的。另外，我們已經編的兩項補助2,410億跟2,501億，這兩項加起來……"],["馬委員文君：我們的軌道工程一年大概編多少錢？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果是現在已經核定的，就有好幾千億……"],["馬委員文君：所以它一共是多少？先不要用一年來算，所以你的軌道工程總共是多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：關於軌道工程，我們現在、今年已經核定的是8,659億；114年編列的是171億。"],["馬委員文君：我想請教院長，我們過去在建國1高速公路的時候，它是由誰執行的？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然國家的道路是由國家……"],["馬委員文君：過去也有省政府，但非常的清楚，如果是國家的重大建設，就應該由中央去編列這樣的預算，而不會把它拆開，因為可能編了2,000億，所以我這裡撥了可能一部分、20%出去以後，我這裡就少了20%，不是這樣算的，你今天要把它很清楚的、具體的說明，就像現在我們編總預算的時候，連化糞池、補助地方所有電費等等全部都把它放在一起，其實這是誤導。我現在要說的是，當初我們的高速公路為什麼可以建？因為它就是一筆預算，它就是直接由單一的單位去把它執行完成。","我們現在會面臨到的是這3,750億左右的預算分配到地方，我用我們中央政府常常講的，包括我們的國防部每次在做很多，不管是軍購或者是國防自主，他最常講的一句話就是先求有再求好，已經二十幾年了，大家都希望有更多的預算可以在地方上，讓自己可以依據我們自己的發展還有我們自己的需求，希望可以建構不同的政事或者所有地方建設的推動，還包括福利措施，可是很難，尤其是沒有錢的縣市，我們就面臨到這樣的困難。","所以我現在要說的是，當你要先求有再求好，過去中央政府也是60%，你現在就是40%，因為過去要精省的時候，那時候在中興新村，本來南投的整體熱鬧度、各方面的發展其實還不錯，因為省政府有很多單位是在南投縣，可是當他走了以後，其實對我們來說是急速的萎縮，像那時候說要精省的時候告訴我們全體國人每年可以省掉5,000億，可是我們沒有看到這5,000億到底用在哪裡，所以到底真的省了這5,000億嗎？那應該要怎麼樣去做這樣的規劃？剛剛我提到的就是說，院長，我們不希望你把它……應該要是一個完整的獨立規劃，比如說軌道工程，它本來就不可能給地方政府，所以這個部分就不要把它放在那裡。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，如果各都會的捷運都由中央百分之百來承作的話，對委員所在的縣市可能更吃虧喔！"],["馬委員文君：吃虧？"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊！"],["馬委員文君：你們意思是中央不想做？"],["卓院長榮泰：都會型的軌道都由中央來做，那更少錢到……所以可能更吃虧喔！不應該這樣。"],["馬委員文君：軌道工程由中央做是很好的事情。我相信院長也去過新加坡，他們所有的組屋是世界各國到新加坡都會去看。"],["卓院長榮泰：它是一個城市國家，是可以。"],["馬委員文君：對，它有一個重點……院長，麻煩聽我講完。它有一個重點，它為什麼可以蓋得這麼好？因為它的建商就是政府，所有組屋主要的業者就是政府，那你應該把它做好。我不知道我們在未來的軌道工程是不是適合由中央去統籌處理，這個你們可以再依更好的一個方向去做討論，可是我們現在講的是，地方政府拿到了這些錢，不要把本來中央政府應該要做的，或者地方政府可以做的，全部把它混為一談。","接下來我想請教第二個問題，就是在我們的報告裡面，還有特別提到跨年度的預算問題，它的具體性其實看起來比較不足，所謂跨年度會有什麼樣的困難嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果是一個跨年度的工程，或是一個預算，是不是？"],["馬委員文君：比如什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：軌道就是啊！有的公路也是啊！"],["馬委員文君：所以軌道就像我們剛剛說的嘛，就像高速公路，不會因為有些錢給地方了，高速公路就不能做，或者是做不了，或者是就沒有辦法去貫徹執行。院長，我剛剛提到的是應該不要拿軌道工程這個來談，如果它是由臺北市政府要執行的，那在這一部分的經費其實跟中央還是可以去談到底要怎麼樣分配額度的問題，可是顯然你們告訴全民的不是這個，不是軌道工程，其實南投到現在沒有軌道工程，可是我們到底有什麼會受到影響？是不是可以有比較具體的一個案例？"],["卓院長榮泰：治水也是啊！"],["馬委員文君：治水會有什麼問題？會有什麼問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果中央的錢少了，中央該做的治水項目到各縣市去做，要嘛就是地方出一部分比例的錢，要嘛就是時間要延長，但時間延長是萬萬不得！"],["馬委員文君：其實不會，關於重大的，比如說河川，那本來就應該是中央做，因為它是橫跨各個縣市，它沒有辦法由地方來做，可是地方的排水系統，或者像一些水土保持，其實是可以由地方政府來做，而且他們是有這樣的能力，過去還沒有精省的時候，水土保持局就是在省政府，其實它也一樣做得很好！我們希望，其實它只要把事權釐清楚，應該由中央做的中央做好，有些地方可以做的，就讓地方政府去好好的做，因為有時候你去做，比如說為什麼有些花了大錢，到最後水還是積起來、還是不通？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們如果……"],["馬委員文君：就是因為水溝沒有辦法排出去，所以我們希望……"],["卓院長榮泰：中央被拿去3,753億就是少在……"],["馬委員文君：3,753億，地方政府也可以做。"],["卓院長榮泰：好……"],["主席：好，謝謝馬委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請陳亭妃委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":344,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","傅崐萁","許宇甄","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","鍾佳濱","翁曉玲","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","林俊憲","王鴻薇","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","馬文君","陳亭妃","林思銘","賴瑞隆"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2025-03-12"],"gazette_id":"1142501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142501_00011","1142501_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第2次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"「財政收支劃分法」第八條、第十六條之一及第三十條條文覆議案","agenda_id":"1142501_00020"}}}