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\"end\": 329.606, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 329.606, \"end\": 329.906, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"繼\"}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 329.906, \"end\": 329.926, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 332.109, \"end\": 360.42, \"text\": \"難道一旦版圖發生變化要重新再來一次嗎這就是不能用藍綠的版圖來劃分這種只要講一個簡單的嘛過去我們都認為縱北侵藍是不對的應該要區域均衡發展嘛你這樣就走回來勞碌嘛跟馬英九當年那個思考又有什麼不一樣更何況這是縱藍侵綠嘛你若用政治的思維來處理事情那下次換另外一黨拿到國會多數再改一次嗎用這樣的方式思維嗎這國家哪會長什麼長期久安國家經不起這樣的折騰\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"難\"}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 332.109, \"end\": 332.609, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 332.609, \"end\": 332.729, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"旦\", \"start\": 332.729, \"end\": 332.989, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"版\", \"start\": 332.989, \"end\": 333.59, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"圖\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 333.59, \"end\": 333.91, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"變\"}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 333.91, \"end\": 334.29, \"score\": 0.966}, 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\"score\": 0.589}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 508.383, \"end\": 530.463, \"text\": \"我也希望將來如果有機會能夠重新審議委員這樣的主張能夠在廣泛討論的時候能夠被充分的重視大家互相的充分的討論那再經過整個程序正義的民主投票來形成一個兩院跟中央地方都能夠接受院長我先提一個未來請你重視這個問題好不好對於空屋的貢獻度這絕對應該要作為財化分配的依據院長可以同意這樣的看法嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 508.383, \"end\": 508.523, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 508.523, \"end\": 508.643, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 508.643, \"end\": 508.744, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 508.744, \"end\": 509.444, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"將\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 509.444, \"end\": 509.544, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 509.544, \"end\": 509.624, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 509.624, \"end\": 510.125, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 510.125, \"end\": 510.345, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 510.345, \"end\": 510.505, 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\"end\": 548.499, \"score\": 0.091}]}, {\"start\": 549.46, \"end\": 566.974, \"text\": \"非常的不公平我認為這個部分應該在藉由中央的調節功能上給予合理的一些支持這個才能夠縮減整個差距我們希望這一屆院長跟部長能夠支持再來我先請教一下如果今天的副議案沒有通過的話院長 行政院的下一步是什麼會提釋憲或提暫時處分嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 549.46, \"end\": 549.62, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 549.62, \"end\": 549.74, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 549.74, \"end\": 549.82, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 549.82, \"end\": 549.9, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 549.9, \"end\": 550.121, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"平\", \"start\": 550.121, \"end\": 550.941, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 550.941, \"end\": 551.241, \"score\": 0.733}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 551.241, \"end\": 551.402, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 551.402, \"end\": 551.642, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, 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\"利益比較多的縣市委員要發揮全國的正義感才能做到均衡的台灣不要只是自己的地方好那別人的地方沒有關係如果這樣子台灣永遠在一個不公平的狀態底下賴總統一直指示我們要用均衡台灣 健康台灣 團結台灣來作為政策推動的一個方向所以均衡台灣的重要希望委員能夠發揮全國的正義感\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"利\", \"start\": 820.665, \"end\": 820.785, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"益\", \"start\": 820.785, \"end\": 820.885, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 820.885, \"end\": 821.185, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 821.185, \"end\": 821.365, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 821.365, \"end\": 821.906, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"縣\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 821.906, \"end\": 822.406, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 822.406, \"end\": 822.867, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 822.867, \"end\": 823.687, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"揮\"}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 823.687, \"end\": 824.088, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 824.088, \"end\": 824.248, \"score\": 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0.861}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 841.183, \"end\": 841.363, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"向\", \"start\": 841.363, \"end\": 841.623, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 841.623, \"end\": 841.743, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 841.743, \"end\": 842.003, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"均\", \"start\": 842.003, \"end\": 842.144, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"衡\", \"start\": 842.144, \"end\": 842.264, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 842.264, \"end\": 842.444, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 842.444, \"end\": 842.544, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 842.544, \"end\": 842.744, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 842.744, \"end\": 843.084, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 843.084, \"end\": 843.184, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 843.184, \"end\": 843.625, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 843.625, \"end\": 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0.889}, {\"word\": \"派\", \"start\": 912.453, \"end\": 912.794, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 912.794, \"end\": 912.954, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 912.954, \"end\": 913.074, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"均\", \"start\": 913.074, \"end\": 913.695, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 913.695, \"end\": 914.316, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 914.316, \"end\": 914.496, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 914.496, \"end\": 914.516, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"畢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,371 --> 00:00:01,556\n謝謝副院長,請卓院長請卓院長答詢\n\n2\n00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:34,235\n院長辛苦了院長我想今天跟你討論一下財務法財務法其實在這20幾年來都曾經有人想要修過但是都沒有辦法成功因為他要整合各縣市整合到所有的其實難度相當的高2002年在馬英九擔任台北市長的時候也曾經想要送當時的時候的國會的多數一樣是國民黨\n\n3\n00:00:35,396 --> 00:00:58,142\n他修的一樣是跟現在這個版本一樣是一個對台北有利重北侵難的一個版本但是後來在最後的整個復議案這也是第一次提出復議案財化法復議2002年提出復議案最後失敗了即使在國民黨佔多數的狀況下一樣有12位缺席1位投下反對票而導致了這個財化法復議成功\n\n4\n00:00:59,644 --> 00:01:16,282\n當時有很多具有正義感而有良知的立委站了出來院長你有沒有信心待會的投票有更多的有正義感有良知的立委站出來第二次的呼籲再次的成功我期待今天在大院裡面的所有委員都要以國家為重\n\n5\n00:01:17,196 --> 00:01:43,987\n每個委員都有選區為選區講話爭取應該的但是如果都為選區不為國家這個國家的走向是越來越艱辛的現在我們面對的威脅也日益嚴重我們需要更多的發展我們要跟支撐我們的產業向外佈局我們也要強化我們自己產業的升級我們都要很多由中央統一來做的事情那如果只是把它分散到地方去也許滿足了地方但是空虛了國防\n\n6\n00:01:45,004 --> 00:02:14,216\n院長我要再次跟所有的人提醒這九年來經濟成長率跟我們的競爭力國家競爭力持續要提升表示國家在一個正確的方向上而這件事情如果這樣處理是對國家有利的不會這二十幾年來國民黨的國會佔多數的時間是多的而從來沒有休過因為它的難度非常的高而且重北輕南絕對不是國家有利的一個方向所以即使在馬英九擔任台北市長的時候他想要休也沒有成功\n\n7\n00:02:14,736 --> 00:02:30,408\n到了2008年到2016年馬英九當到了總統的國會一樣多數雙多數的狀況下一樣沒有修法成功因為他們知道這是缺乏良知這對台灣的長遠是不利的所以國民黨其實在多數的狀況下一樣沒有修法\n\n8\n00:02:30,848 --> 00:02:49,463\n這就是現在真實的狀況但是今年的立法院確實出現了亂象就是說完全不顧台灣的競爭力完全不顧南北的公平正義堅持要修復這一個不公平不正義而對台灣傷害的一個才華法我們認為今天應該有更多有良知的立委站出來投下關鍵的票\n\n9\n00:02:50,023 --> 00:03:07,326\n全台灣的人民都在看歷史也都在看誰投下了沒票如果這些沒有良知的立委投出了這樣的票我想歷史會記上一筆台灣人民也會記上這一筆院長同意我這樣的看法嗎是的謝謝委員請委員支持也希望委員等一下能夠發揮更多的影響力\n\n10\n00:03:08,838 --> 00:03:28,596\n讓更多跟委員可以接近委員想法的委員跟我們...院長我一定支持我也在發揮最後的影響力我是最會執行我在發揮最後的影響力希望藍白立委選來熱馬最後關鍵時刻再用你的良知想一下什麼樣的制度會選台灣是最好的復一案同意之後是回去重新討論\n\n11\n00:03:29,617 --> 00:03:55,812\n重新討論可以把各個版本談出來如果這是一件容易的事情的話不會25年馬英九執政也無法做到包括國民黨國民黨國會的時候國書會多數也無法做到這只是回到重新討論而已這件事情其實對台灣長遠覺得是有利的我們希望藍白多數的立委們能夠站出來用你們良知來用你對人民的這個支持來站出來投下這一架關鍵的一票\n\n12\n00:03:56,552 --> 00:04:24,420\n這對台灣的未來都有相當長遠的影響我要來講一下為什麼我認為這是一個這一次的修法是一個縱北傾南甚至縱南傾綠的一個修法我們看一下這個是初步我們統計出來的過去以來縱北傾南早就已經講到不想講了結果這一次的修法台北市可以拿到了410個初估的而南部的台南拿到163高雄拿到245最低的比例都在南部最高的比例都在北部\n\n13\n00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:48,937\n這絕對是一個重北輕藍的修法包括稍微我把藍綠稍微標出來了藍的縣市全部多數獲得比較多的分配的利益綠的縣市全部獲得比較少的這簡直是先設建再劃靶嘛就根本就是因具有政治的意圖而去做這樣的一個修法這樣的修法人民能接受嗎這麼具有高度政治性的修法人民接受\n\n14\n00:04:49,637 --> 00:05:13,450\n在2002年馬英九當台北市長的時候修法跟這個完全一樣當時把所得稅從10%修到30%把這個營業稅從40%修到50%跟這次的標準一樣完全著重在這些指標這些指標就是台北有利的指標就對北部有利的指標如果都用這樣的修法方式的話那又走回了重北親南的老路人民能接受嗎?院長同意這樣的看法嗎?如果這種委員所指出的這種藍綠的版圖\n\n15\n00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:29,926\n有一天發生變化的時候那今天在這裡主張的人怎麼回去地方跟他們的地方的人士說過去的主張是對還是不錯對還是不對還是要繼續調整\n\n16\n00:05:32,109 --> 00:06:00,420\n難道一旦版圖發生變化要重新再來一次嗎這就是不能用藍綠的版圖來劃分這種只要講一個簡單的嘛過去我們都認為縱北侵藍是不對的應該要區域均衡發展嘛你這樣就走回來勞碌嘛跟馬英九當年那個思考又有什麼不一樣更何況這是縱藍侵綠嘛你若用政治的思維來處理事情那下次換另外一黨拿到國會多數再改一次嗎用這樣的方式思維嗎這國家哪會長什麼長期久安國家經不起這樣的折騰\n\n17\n00:06:01,500 --> 00:06:29,313\n所以我認為這樣的修法絕對是一個政治性的修法絕對是一個摧毀台灣財政機率絕對是一個影響到台灣競爭力的錯誤的修法我們希望藍白立委有良知的立委站出來待會再賦予一票投出關鍵的重要的決定全世界都在看全台灣都在看歷史會留下這樣的紀錄讓我們部長能夠跟地方的溝通這最後一里路能夠把它完成我們就可以跟大家討論一個立法院行政院都能夠接受的版本\n\n18\n00:06:31,014 --> 00:06:50,367\n我也有提出修法這一屆的我第一個提出修法我就是認為空污的指標要拉進來我認為這個採訪法要修該修但是不容易修但是我們要努力朝這個方向但絕不是像這樣子具有政治性具有重北輕南的思維下來亂修一通這種的修法對台灣絕對長遠是傷害的我們來看一下這個指標裡面的指標\n\n19\n00:06:53,829 --> 00:07:20,189\n我為什麼說是先設建再畫吧裡面指標這個資源集中在雙北包括它以土地面積把它給大幅的調降土地面積雙北的人口密度最高南部高雄台南這都非常大的面積你調降那對南部是不利的嘛包括你把人口的指標大幅提升人口由南部往北移還是一個趨勢嘛你把這些調移升的時候\n\n20\n00:07:21,130 --> 00:07:48,326\n新北台北就最大的獲利嘛這實在讓南北加劇就這個節貧計富嘛本來就已經很辛苦的南部你還這樣子搞下去那不是更多資源集中在台北那是逼更多中南部的往台北集中嗎這就是個錯誤的思維嘛包括產業結構外部城北沒有思考中南部過去都是工業城市空污嚴重全部空污最嚴重的都在中南部結果你這些指標沒有放進來然後還把這些放掉之後\n\n21\n00:07:49,066 --> 00:08:07,729\n結果只導致了整個區域的差異更加擴大我們認為這些都是錯誤的指標甚至於你把三千多億拿走之後你把本來中央有機會調配的一個方式也全部拿走了很多區域間可以做調配的完全拿掉了讓台北強者越強南部弱者越弱\n\n22\n00:08:08,650 --> 00:08:27,703\n成鄉差距越來越大這對國家怎麼會是一個好的發展所以我們認為財化法未來該修但是是應該先複製回去之後重新再來討論我有我的主張我認為對於產業對於人口對於土地都應該做一些調整但絕對不是現在國民黨強行通過這種版本院長同意這樣的看法嗎\n\n23\n00:08:28,383 --> 00:08:50,463\n我也希望將來如果有機會能夠重新審議委員這樣的主張能夠在廣泛討論的時候能夠被充分的重視大家互相的充分的討論那再經過整個程序正義的民主投票來形成一個兩院跟中央地方都能夠接受院長我先提一個未來請你重視這個問題好不好對於空屋的貢獻度這絕對應該要作為財化分配的依據院長可以同意這樣的看法嗎\n\n24\n00:08:51,887 --> 00:09:08,499\n我知道委員提出來的草案裡面確實有這樣的一個指標那這個部分我們也會徵詢相關譬如說環境部怎麼樣來指標來定的可以具體不要讓南部為了空屋電力也在增加空屋也在增加然後反倒分配稅款反而是少的\n\n25\n00:09:09,460 --> 00:09:26,974\n非常的不公平我認為這個部分應該在藉由中央的調節功能上給予合理的一些支持這個才能夠縮減整個差距我們希望這一屆院長跟部長能夠支持再來我先請教一下如果今天的副議案沒有通過的話院長行政院的下一步是什麼會提釋憲或提暫時處分嗎\n\n26\n00:09:29,836 --> 00:09:55,344\n因為財化法是依照憲法147條裡面重要的精神跟規定所以公法學者形容它是一個財政憲法所以如果它違背了憲法的精神那我們可以研究甚至我們進一步去推動將來在有沒有違反憲政秩序上面它如果應該走向這條路的話這都是未來救濟方式的一種所以院長如果那個話你不排除走這條路嗎是嗎\n\n27\n00:09:56,844 --> 00:10:23,355\n這個在我們各種方式裡面都有所以會考慮採用這樣的方式我們現在沒有放棄任何的努力沒有放棄的就是待會看表決的結果嘛對不對如果表決結果出來了呼籲案並沒有通過的話那院裡面不排除走這樣這條路嗎憲政的程序的路嗎憲法已經給我們這樣的義務那憲法的程序就是釋憲跟暫時處分那院長會提暫時處分嗎至少不要讓這些受害的程序擴大那問題就在大法官現在的\n\n28\n00:10:25,062 --> 00:10:31,027\n開會的人數又被對那這樣就是另外一個問題就是立法院已經癱瘓掉了大法官所以變無解了嘛變成整個把國家整個癱瘓掉了嘛喔院長遺憾這樣的一個發展的方向嗎這個是從來沒有我們\n\n29\n00:10:41,142 --> 00:11:05,107\n這麼多年以來在發展民主政治過程當中也一直在維持這個五院的體制是從來沒有發生過的現狀從來沒有發生過立法院搞到把自己搞成獨大不是立法院獨大是藍白立院獨大這完全已經把可以把總統府把其他四院的權益全部影響掉了我從來沒有看過這樣狀況這已經完全超越了整個憲法超越了所有大家能夠理解的範圍\n\n30\n00:11:06,527 --> 00:11:25,505\n藍白多數的國會亂搞一通搞成這樣真的是大家無法接受我再來問最後一個婦醫案如果沒有通過的話這個大概有可能提出事件那院長會現在講到大家開始會有很多下鄉宣講如果民間團體或各個邀請你去下鄉宣講你會去參與嗎我會把握各種\n\n31\n00:11:27,376 --> 00:11:37,285\n時間跟方式很樂意也積極的跟國人說明我們未來的國家政策的推動甚至於我們如果有任何自在難行的地方我也要取得國人的理解\n\n32\n00:11:37,894 --> 00:12:07,094\n窮盡一切可能要告訴社會各界當立法院已經無法溝通當社會各界的時候作為行政院院長作為整個部會首長都應該讓社會知道到底發生什麼樣的事情要扭轉住這樣的一個局面讓國家那個持續往前走中時的向人民報告我們期待院長持續來跟社會做更多溝通再來我還是要提一下這個我剛講到的這個空屋的這個狀況請院長跟部長看一下南部的部分整個空屋最嚴重地區從雲林到高雄嘉義\n\n33\n00:12:08,295 --> 00:12:10,259\n縣市到南投到台南基本上\n\n34\n00:12:10,922 --> 00:12:36,875\n都是在南部最嚴重這也就是為什麼我認為說當空污問題的時候必須要放入到採化法要放入到這樣的一個指標裡面去做思考如果你沒有把這些做思考的時候其實對南部的長遠的發展是不利的南部還不斷的增加電廠然後空污更加嚴重然後甚至於很多石化產業鋼鐵產業持續在發展就反倒是在採化法方面反倒是對他們更加的苛刻我認為這個長遠是不利於發展的\n\n35\n00:12:39,062 --> 00:12:54,860\n院長同意這樣的看法嗎請部長將來在跟地方談的時候以及目前手上的資料我們邀請環境部將所有的分析環境部要到各地方去了解真正的狀況能不能把它做一個完整來取得大家的同意如果共識高就往這個方向去執行\n\n36\n00:12:54,940 --> 00:13:14,402\n因為多數像這些東西很多的發展他可能就是工廠是在南部所以他的污染空污嚴重的在南部但是他的總公司可能是在北部是在首都嘛是在台北所以你用營業稅這些對他們來說的稅是不公平的這極端的更加不公平本來就已經占到了國家很大的利益再繼續加上去\n\n37\n00:13:16,504 --> 00:13:39,344\n這是雙重的一種剝奪對於整個雙重的不公平所以我們認為在將來院的一些在討論這件事情的時候一定要把這個指標去納入參考不要讓南部的人持續的雙重的傷害你為國家發展付出這麼多你應該得到更多的一些支持現在要努力的就是依照現在修正過的版本當中這個計算的權重比較得到\n\n38\n00:13:40,665 --> 00:14:05,466\n利益比較多的縣市委員要發揮全國的正義感才能做到均衡的台灣不要只是自己的地方好那別人的地方沒有關係如果這樣子台灣永遠在一個不公平的狀態底下賴總統一直指示我們要用均衡台灣健康台灣團結台灣來作為政策推動的一個方向所以均衡台灣的重要希望委員能夠發揮全國的正義感\n\n39\n00:14:06,590 --> 00:14:32,944\n所以我希望每一個立委其實都是全國的立委也都應該站在國家的高度來思考那不應該受到但是如果像這樣的一個修法的方式會導致到了這麼多的不公平不正義的狀況的發生的時候我認為其實立委們其實應該要站出來就像我最前面所提到的為什麼在2002年的時候會有12位立委缺席會有一位的\n\n40\n00:14:34,045 --> 00:15:00,818\n投出廢票就是因為他們發現不妥這樣的修法的方向對中南部極度不公平對整個財化化分上面會產生更嚴重的強者越強弱者越弱強凌弱的這樣狀況重北侵南狀況所以這麼多有勇氣的立委們站出來我們期待待會晚一點的投票更多有勇氣的立委站出來如果沒有勇氣沒有道德良知的話那人民也都看在眼裡院長同意這樣的看法嗎\n\n41\n00:15:01,138 --> 00:15:14,516\n我們共同來期待還有多十二位國家立委我們期待今天第二次的採訪有不一樣是成功的好嗎院長我們繼續的努力院長加油喔謝謝謝謝委員支持謝謝好謝謝賴委員謝謝卓院長報告全院委員會各黨團推派的委員均已詢答完畢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n371\t1556\t謝謝副院長,請卓院長請卓院長答詢\n10680\t34235\t院長辛苦了院長我想今天跟你討論一下財務法財務法其實在這20幾年來都曾經有人想要修過但是都沒有辦法成功因為他要整合各縣市整合到所有的其實難度相當的高2002年在馬英九擔任台北市長的時候也曾經想要送當時的時候的國會的多數一樣是國民黨\n35396\t58142\t他修的一樣是跟現在這個版本一樣是一個對台北有利 重北侵難的一個版本但是後來在最後的整個復議案這也是第一次提出復議案財化法復議2002年提出復議案最後失敗了即使在國民黨佔多數的狀況下一樣有12位缺席 1位投下反對票而導致了這個財化法復議成功\n59644\t76282\t當時有很多具有正義感而有良知的立委站了出來院長你有沒有信心待會的投票有更多的有正義感有良知的立委站出來第二次的呼籲再次的成功我期待今天在大院裡面的所有委員都要以國家為重\n77196\t103987\t每個委員都有選區為選區講話爭取應該的但是如果都為選區不為國家這個國家的走向是越來越艱辛的現在我們面對的威脅也日益嚴重我們需要更多的發展我們要跟支撐我們的產業向外佈局我們也要強化我們自己產業的升級我們都要很多由中央統一來做的事情那如果只是把它分散到地方去也許滿足了地方但是空虛了國防\n105004\t134216\t院長我要再次跟所有的人提醒這九年來經濟成長率跟我們的競爭力國家競爭力持續要提升表示國家在一個正確的方向上而這件事情如果這樣處理是對國家有利的不會這二十幾年來國民黨的國會佔多數的時間是多的而從來沒有休過因為它的難度非常的高而且重北輕南絕對不是國家有利的一個方向所以即使在馬英九擔任台北市長的時候他想要休也沒有成功\n134736\t150408\t到了2008年到2016年馬英九當到了總統的國會一樣多數雙多數的狀況下一樣沒有修法成功因為他們知道這是缺乏良知這對台灣的長遠是不利的所以國民黨其實在多數的狀況下一樣沒有修法\n150848\t169463\t這就是現在真實的狀況但是今年的立法院確實出現了亂象就是說完全不顧台灣的競爭力完全不顧南北的公平正義堅持要修復這一個不公平不正義而對台灣傷害的一個才華法我們認為今天應該有更多有良知的立委站出來投下關鍵的票\n170023\t187326\t全台灣的人民都在看歷史也都在看誰投下了沒票如果這些沒有良知的立委投出了這樣的票我想歷史會記上一筆台灣人民也會記上這一筆院長同意我這樣的看法嗎是的 謝謝委員請委員支持也希望委員等一下能夠發揮更多的影響力\n188838\t208596\t讓更多跟委員可以接近委員想法的委員跟我們...院長 我一定支持我也在發揮最後的影響力我是最會執行 我在發揮最後的影響力希望藍白立委選來熱馬最後關鍵時刻再用你的良知想一下什麼樣的制度會選台灣是最好的復一案同意之後是回去重新討論\n209617\t235812\t重新討論可以把各個版本談出來如果這是一件容易的事情的話不會25年馬英九執政也無法做到包括國民黨國民黨國會的時候國書會多數也無法做到這只是回到重新討論而已這件事情其實對台灣長遠覺得是有利的我們希望藍白多數的立委們能夠站出來用你們良知來用你對人民的這個支持來站出來投下這一架關鍵的一票\n236552\t264420\t這對台灣的未來都有相當長遠的影響我要來講一下為什麼我認為這是一個這一次的修法是一個縱北傾南甚至縱南傾綠的一個修法我們看一下這個是初步我們統計出來的過去以來縱北傾南早就已經講到不想講了結果這一次的修法台北市可以拿到了410個初估的而南部的台南拿到163高雄拿到245最低的比例都在南部最高的比例都在北部\n265560\t288937\t這絕對是一個重北輕藍的修法包括 稍微我把藍綠稍微標出來了藍的縣市全部多數獲得比較多的分配的利益綠的縣市全部獲得比較少的這簡直是先設建再劃靶嘛就根本就是因具有政治的意圖而去做這樣的一個修法這樣的修法人民能接受嗎這麼具有高度政治性的修法人民接受\n289637\t313450\t在2002年馬英九當台北市長的時候修法跟這個完全一樣當時把所得稅從10%修到30%把這個營業稅從40%修到50%跟這次的標準一樣完全著重在這些指標這些指標就是台北有利的指標就對北部有利的指標如果都用這樣的修法方式的話那又走回了重北親南的老路人民能接受嗎?院長同意這樣的看法嗎?如果這種委員所指出的這種藍綠的版圖\n319520\t329926\t有一天發生變化的時候那今天在這裡主張的人怎麼回去地方跟他們的地方的人士說過去的主張是對還是不錯對還是不對還是要繼續調整\n332109\t360420\t難道一旦版圖發生變化要重新再來一次嗎這就是不能用藍綠的版圖來劃分這種只要講一個簡單的嘛過去我們都認為縱北侵藍是不對的應該要區域均衡發展嘛你這樣就走回來勞碌嘛跟馬英九當年那個思考又有什麼不一樣更何況這是縱藍侵綠嘛你若用政治的思維來處理事情那下次換另外一黨拿到國會多數再改一次嗎用這樣的方式思維嗎這國家哪會長什麼長期久安國家經不起這樣的折騰\n361500\t389313\t所以我認為這樣的修法絕對是一個政治性的修法絕對是一個摧毀台灣財政機率絕對是一個影響到台灣競爭力的錯誤的修法我們希望藍白立委有良知的立委站出來待會再賦予一票投出關鍵的重要的決定全世界都在看 全台灣都在看歷史會留下這樣的紀錄讓我們部長能夠跟地方的溝通這最後一里路能夠把它完成我們就可以跟大家討論一個立法院 行政院都能夠接受的版本\n391014\t410367\t我也有提出修法這一屆的我第一個提出修法我就是認為空污的指標要拉進來我認為這個採訪法要修 該修但是不容易修但是我們要努力朝這個方向但絕不是像這樣子具有政治性具有重北輕南的思維下來亂修一通這種的修法對台灣絕對長遠是傷害的我們來看一下這個指標裡面的指標\n413829\t440189\t我為什麼說是先設建再畫吧裡面指標這個資源集中在雙北包括它以土地面積把它給大幅的調降土地面積雙北的人口密度最高南部高雄台南這都非常大的面積你調降那對南部是不利的嘛包括你把人口的指標大幅提升人口由南部往北移還是一個趨勢嘛你把這些調移升的時候\n441130\t468326\t新北台北就最大的獲利嘛這實在讓南北加劇就這個節貧計富嘛本來就已經很辛苦的南部你還這樣子搞下去那不是更多資源集中在台北那是逼更多中南部的往台北集中嗎這就是個錯誤的思維嘛包括產業結構外部城北沒有思考中南部過去都是工業城市空污嚴重全部空污最嚴重的都在中南部結果你這些指標沒有放進來然後還把這些放掉之後\n469066\t487729\t結果只導致了整個區域的差異更加擴大我們認為這些都是錯誤的指標甚至於你把三千多億拿走之後你把本來中央有機會調配的一個方式也全部拿走了很多區域間可以做調配的完全拿掉了讓台北強者越強南部弱者越弱\n488650\t507703\t成鄉差距越來越大 這對國家怎麼會是一個好的發展所以我們認為 財化法未來該修 但是是應該先複製回去之後重新再來討論我有我的主張 我認為對於產業 對於人口 對於土地都應該做一些調整但絕對不是現在國民黨強行通過這種版本院長同意這樣的看法嗎\n508383\t530463\t我也希望將來如果有機會能夠重新審議委員這樣的主張能夠在廣泛討論的時候能夠被充分的重視大家互相的充分的討論那再經過整個程序正義的民主投票來形成一個兩院跟中央地方都能夠接受院長我先提一個未來請你重視這個問題好不好對於空屋的貢獻度這絕對應該要作為財化分配的依據院長可以同意這樣的看法嗎\n531887\t548499\t我知道委員提出來的草案裡面確實有這樣的一個指標那這個部分我們也會徵詢相關譬如說環境部怎麼樣來指標來定的可以具體不要讓南部為了空屋電力也在增加空屋也在增加然後反倒分配稅款反而是少的\n549460\t566974\t非常的不公平我認為這個部分應該在藉由中央的調節功能上給予合理的一些支持這個才能夠縮減整個差距我們希望這一屆院長跟部長能夠支持再來我先請教一下如果今天的副議案沒有通過的話院長 行政院的下一步是什麼會提釋憲或提暫時處分嗎\n569836\t595344\t因為財化法是依照憲法147條裡面重要的精神跟規定所以公法學者形容它是一個財政憲法所以如果它違背了憲法的精神那我們可以研究甚至我們進一步去推動將來在有沒有違反憲政秩序上面它如果應該走向這條路的話這都是未來救濟方式的一種所以院長如果那個話你不排除走這條路嗎 是嗎\n596844\t623355\t這個在我們各種方式裡面都有所以會考慮採用這樣的方式我們現在沒有放棄任何的努力沒有放棄的就是待會看表決的結果嘛對不對如果表決結果出來了呼籲案並沒有通過的話那院裡面不排除走這樣這條路嗎憲政的程序的路嗎憲法已經給我們這樣的義務那憲法的程序就是釋憲跟暫時處分那院長會提暫時處分嗎至少不要讓這些受害的程序擴大那問題就在大法官現在的\n625062\t631027\t開會的人數又被對那這樣就是另外一個問題就是立法院已經癱瘓掉了大法官所以變無解了嘛變成整個把國家整個癱瘓掉了嘛喔院長遺憾這樣的一個發展的方向嗎這個是從來沒有我們\n641142\t665107\t這麼多年以來在發展民主政治過程當中也一直在維持這個五院的體制是從來沒有發生過的現狀從來沒有發生過立法院搞到把自己搞成獨大不是立法院獨大是藍白立院獨大這完全已經把可以把總統府把其他四院的權益全部影響掉了我從來沒有看過這樣狀況這已經完全超越了整個憲法超越了所有大家能夠理解的範圍\n666527\t685505\t藍白多數的國會亂搞一通搞成這樣真的是大家無法接受我再來問最後一個婦醫案如果沒有通過的話這個大概有可能提出事件那院長會現在講到大家開始會有很多下鄉宣講如果民間團體或各個邀請你去下鄉宣講你會去參與嗎我會把握各種\n687376\t697285\t時間跟方式很樂意也積極的跟國人說明我們未來的國家政策的推動甚至於我們如果有任何自在難行的地方我也要取得國人的理解\n697894\t727094\t窮盡一切可能要告訴社會各界當立法院已經無法溝通當社會各界的時候作為行政院院長作為整個部會首長都應該讓社會知道到底發生什麼樣的事情要扭轉住這樣的一個局面讓國家那個持續往前走中時的向人民報告我們期待院長持續來跟社會做更多溝通再來我還是要提一下這個我剛講到的這個空屋的這個狀況請院長跟部長看一下南部的部分整個空屋最嚴重地區從雲林到高雄嘉義\n728295\t730259\t縣市到南投到台南基本上\n730922\t756875\t都是在南部最嚴重這也就是為什麼我認為說當空污問題的時候必須要放入到採化法要放入到這樣的一個指標裡面去做思考如果你沒有把這些做思考的時候其實對南部的長遠的發展是不利的南部還不斷的增加電廠然後空污更加嚴重然後甚至於很多石化產業鋼鐵產業持續在發展就反倒是在採化法方面反倒是對他們更加的苛刻我認為這個長遠是不利於發展的\n759062\t774860\t院長同意這樣的看法嗎請部長將來在跟地方談的時候以及目前手上的資料我們邀請環境部將所有的分析環境部要到各地方去了解真正的狀況能不能把它做一個完整來取得大家的同意如果共識高就往這個方向去執行\n774940\t794402\t因為多數像這些東西很多的發展他可能就是工廠是在南部所以他的污染空污嚴重的在南部但是他的總公司可能是在北部是在首都嘛是在台北所以你用營業稅這些對他們來說的稅是不公平的這極端的更加不公平本來就已經占到了國家很大的利益再繼續加上去\n796504\t819344\t這是雙重的一種剝奪對於整個雙重的不公平所以我們認為在將來院的一些在討論這件事情的時候一定要把這個指標去納入參考不要讓南部的人持續的雙重的傷害你為國家發展付出這麼多你應該得到更多的一些支持現在要努力的就是依照現在修正過的版本當中這個計算的權重比較得到\n820665\t845466\t利益比較多的縣市委員要發揮全國的正義感才能做到均衡的台灣不要只是自己的地方好那別人的地方沒有關係如果這樣子台灣永遠在一個不公平的狀態底下賴總統一直指示我們要用均衡台灣 健康台灣 團結台灣來作為政策推動的一個方向所以均衡台灣的重要希望委員能夠發揮全國的正義感\n846590\t872944\t所以我希望每一個立委其實都是全國的立委也都應該站在國家的高度來思考那不應該受到但是如果像這樣的一個修法的方式會導致到了這麼多的不公平不正義的狀況的發生的時候我認為其實立委們其實應該要站出來就像我最前面所提到的為什麼在2002年的時候會有12位立委缺席會有一位的\n874045\t900818\t投出廢票就是因為他們發現不妥這樣的修法的方向對中南部極度不公平對整個財化化分上面會產生更嚴重的強者越強弱者越弱強凌弱的這樣狀況重北侵南狀況所以這麼多有勇氣的立委們站出來我們期待待會晚一點的投票更多有勇氣的立委站出來如果沒有勇氣沒有道德良知的話那人民也都看在眼裡院長同意這樣的看法嗎\n901138\t914516\t我們共同來期待還有多十二位國家立委我們期待今天第二次的採訪有不一樣是成功的好嗎 院長我們繼續的努力院長加油喔 謝謝謝謝委員支持 謝謝好 謝謝賴委員 謝謝卓院長報告全院委員會各黨團推派的委員均已詢答完畢\n","txt":"謝謝副院長,請卓院長請卓院長答詢\n院長辛苦了院長我想今天跟你討論一下財務法財務法其實在這20幾年來都曾經有人想要修過但是都沒有辦法成功因為他要整合各縣市整合到所有的其實難度相當的高2002年在馬英九擔任台北市長的時候也曾經想要送當時的時候的國會的多數一樣是國民黨\n他修的一樣是跟現在這個版本一樣是一個對台北有利 重北侵難的一個版本但是後來在最後的整個復議案這也是第一次提出復議案財化法復議2002年提出復議案最後失敗了即使在國民黨佔多數的狀況下一樣有12位缺席 1位投下反對票而導致了這個財化法復議成功\n當時有很多具有正義感而有良知的立委站了出來院長你有沒有信心待會的投票有更多的有正義感有良知的立委站出來第二次的呼籲再次的成功我期待今天在大院裡面的所有委員都要以國家為重\n每個委員都有選區為選區講話爭取應該的但是如果都為選區不為國家這個國家的走向是越來越艱辛的現在我們面對的威脅也日益嚴重我們需要更多的發展我們要跟支撐我們的產業向外佈局我們也要強化我們自己產業的升級我們都要很多由中央統一來做的事情那如果只是把它分散到地方去也許滿足了地方但是空虛了國防\n院長我要再次跟所有的人提醒這九年來經濟成長率跟我們的競爭力國家競爭力持續要提升表示國家在一個正確的方向上而這件事情如果這樣處理是對國家有利的不會這二十幾年來國民黨的國會佔多數的時間是多的而從來沒有休過因為它的難度非常的高而且重北輕南絕對不是國家有利的一個方向所以即使在馬英九擔任台北市長的時候他想要休也沒有成功\n到了2008年到2016年馬英九當到了總統的國會一樣多數雙多數的狀況下一樣沒有修法成功因為他們知道這是缺乏良知這對台灣的長遠是不利的所以國民黨其實在多數的狀況下一樣沒有修法\n這就是現在真實的狀況但是今年的立法院確實出現了亂象就是說完全不顧台灣的競爭力完全不顧南北的公平正義堅持要修復這一個不公平不正義而對台灣傷害的一個才華法我們認為今天應該有更多有良知的立委站出來投下關鍵的票\n全台灣的人民都在看歷史也都在看誰投下了沒票如果這些沒有良知的立委投出了這樣的票我想歷史會記上一筆台灣人民也會記上這一筆院長同意我這樣的看法嗎是的 謝謝委員請委員支持也希望委員等一下能夠發揮更多的影響力\n讓更多跟委員可以接近委員想法的委員跟我們...院長 我一定支持我也在發揮最後的影響力我是最會執行 我在發揮最後的影響力希望藍白立委選來熱馬最後關鍵時刻再用你的良知想一下什麼樣的制度會選台灣是最好的復一案同意之後是回去重新討論\n重新討論可以把各個版本談出來如果這是一件容易的事情的話不會25年馬英九執政也無法做到包括國民黨國民黨國會的時候國書會多數也無法做到這只是回到重新討論而已這件事情其實對台灣長遠覺得是有利的我們希望藍白多數的立委們能夠站出來用你們良知來用你對人民的這個支持來站出來投下這一架關鍵的一票\n這對台灣的未來都有相當長遠的影響我要來講一下為什麼我認為這是一個這一次的修法是一個縱北傾南甚至縱南傾綠的一個修法我們看一下這個是初步我們統計出來的過去以來縱北傾南早就已經講到不想講了結果這一次的修法台北市可以拿到了410個初估的而南部的台南拿到163高雄拿到245最低的比例都在南部最高的比例都在北部\n這絕對是一個重北輕藍的修法包括 稍微我把藍綠稍微標出來了藍的縣市全部多數獲得比較多的分配的利益綠的縣市全部獲得比較少的這簡直是先設建再劃靶嘛就根本就是因具有政治的意圖而去做這樣的一個修法這樣的修法人民能接受嗎這麼具有高度政治性的修法人民接受\n在2002年馬英九當台北市長的時候修法跟這個完全一樣當時把所得稅從10%修到30%把這個營業稅從40%修到50%跟這次的標準一樣完全著重在這些指標這些指標就是台北有利的指標就對北部有利的指標如果都用這樣的修法方式的話那又走回了重北親南的老路人民能接受嗎?院長同意這樣的看法嗎?如果這種委員所指出的這種藍綠的版圖\n有一天發生變化的時候那今天在這裡主張的人怎麼回去地方跟他們的地方的人士說過去的主張是對還是不錯對還是不對還是要繼續調整\n難道一旦版圖發生變化要重新再來一次嗎這就是不能用藍綠的版圖來劃分這種只要講一個簡單的嘛過去我們都認為縱北侵藍是不對的應該要區域均衡發展嘛你這樣就走回來勞碌嘛跟馬英九當年那個思考又有什麼不一樣更何況這是縱藍侵綠嘛你若用政治的思維來處理事情那下次換另外一黨拿到國會多數再改一次嗎用這樣的方式思維嗎這國家哪會長什麼長期久安國家經不起這樣的折騰\n所以我認為這樣的修法絕對是一個政治性的修法絕對是一個摧毀台灣財政機率絕對是一個影響到台灣競爭力的錯誤的修法我們希望藍白立委有良知的立委站出來待會再賦予一票投出關鍵的重要的決定全世界都在看 全台灣都在看歷史會留下這樣的紀錄讓我們部長能夠跟地方的溝通這最後一里路能夠把它完成我們就可以跟大家討論一個立法院 行政院都能夠接受的版本\n我也有提出修法這一屆的我第一個提出修法我就是認為空污的指標要拉進來我認為這個採訪法要修 該修但是不容易修但是我們要努力朝這個方向但絕不是像這樣子具有政治性具有重北輕南的思維下來亂修一通這種的修法對台灣絕對長遠是傷害的我們來看一下這個指標裡面的指標\n我為什麼說是先設建再畫吧裡面指標這個資源集中在雙北包括它以土地面積把它給大幅的調降土地面積雙北的人口密度最高南部高雄台南這都非常大的面積你調降那對南部是不利的嘛包括你把人口的指標大幅提升人口由南部往北移還是一個趨勢嘛你把這些調移升的時候\n新北台北就最大的獲利嘛這實在讓南北加劇就這個節貧計富嘛本來就已經很辛苦的南部你還這樣子搞下去那不是更多資源集中在台北那是逼更多中南部的往台北集中嗎這就是個錯誤的思維嘛包括產業結構外部城北沒有思考中南部過去都是工業城市空污嚴重全部空污最嚴重的都在中南部結果你這些指標沒有放進來然後還把這些放掉之後\n結果只導致了整個區域的差異更加擴大我們認為這些都是錯誤的指標甚至於你把三千多億拿走之後你把本來中央有機會調配的一個方式也全部拿走了很多區域間可以做調配的完全拿掉了讓台北強者越強南部弱者越弱\n成鄉差距越來越大 這對國家怎麼會是一個好的發展所以我們認為 財化法未來該修 但是是應該先複製回去之後重新再來討論我有我的主張 我認為對於產業 對於人口 對於土地都應該做一些調整但絕對不是現在國民黨強行通過這種版本院長同意這樣的看法嗎\n我也希望將來如果有機會能夠重新審議委員這樣的主張能夠在廣泛討論的時候能夠被充分的重視大家互相的充分的討論那再經過整個程序正義的民主投票來形成一個兩院跟中央地方都能夠接受院長我先提一個未來請你重視這個問題好不好對於空屋的貢獻度這絕對應該要作為財化分配的依據院長可以同意這樣的看法嗎\n我知道委員提出來的草案裡面確實有這樣的一個指標那這個部分我們也會徵詢相關譬如說環境部怎麼樣來指標來定的可以具體不要讓南部為了空屋電力也在增加空屋也在增加然後反倒分配稅款反而是少的\n非常的不公平我認為這個部分應該在藉由中央的調節功能上給予合理的一些支持這個才能夠縮減整個差距我們希望這一屆院長跟部長能夠支持再來我先請教一下如果今天的副議案沒有通過的話院長 行政院的下一步是什麼會提釋憲或提暫時處分嗎\n因為財化法是依照憲法147條裡面重要的精神跟規定所以公法學者形容它是一個財政憲法所以如果它違背了憲法的精神那我們可以研究甚至我們進一步去推動將來在有沒有違反憲政秩序上面它如果應該走向這條路的話這都是未來救濟方式的一種所以院長如果那個話你不排除走這條路嗎 是嗎\n這個在我們各種方式裡面都有所以會考慮採用這樣的方式我們現在沒有放棄任何的努力沒有放棄的就是待會看表決的結果嘛對不對如果表決結果出來了呼籲案並沒有通過的話那院裡面不排除走這樣這條路嗎憲政的程序的路嗎憲法已經給我們這樣的義務那憲法的程序就是釋憲跟暫時處分那院長會提暫時處分嗎至少不要讓這些受害的程序擴大那問題就在大法官現在的\n開會的人數又被對那這樣就是另外一個問題就是立法院已經癱瘓掉了大法官所以變無解了嘛變成整個把國家整個癱瘓掉了嘛喔院長遺憾這樣的一個發展的方向嗎這個是從來沒有我們\n這麼多年以來在發展民主政治過程當中也一直在維持這個五院的體制是從來沒有發生過的現狀從來沒有發生過立法院搞到把自己搞成獨大不是立法院獨大是藍白立院獨大這完全已經把可以把總統府把其他四院的權益全部影響掉了我從來沒有看過這樣狀況這已經完全超越了整個憲法超越了所有大家能夠理解的範圍\n藍白多數的國會亂搞一通搞成這樣真的是大家無法接受我再來問最後一個婦醫案如果沒有通過的話這個大概有可能提出事件那院長會現在講到大家開始會有很多下鄉宣講如果民間團體或各個邀請你去下鄉宣講你會去參與嗎我會把握各種\n時間跟方式很樂意也積極的跟國人說明我們未來的國家政策的推動甚至於我們如果有任何自在難行的地方我也要取得國人的理解\n窮盡一切可能要告訴社會各界當立法院已經無法溝通當社會各界的時候作為行政院院長作為整個部會首長都應該讓社會知道到底發生什麼樣的事情要扭轉住這樣的一個局面讓國家那個持續往前走中時的向人民報告我們期待院長持續來跟社會做更多溝通再來我還是要提一下這個我剛講到的這個空屋的這個狀況請院長跟部長看一下南部的部分整個空屋最嚴重地區從雲林到高雄嘉義\n縣市到南投到台南基本上\n都是在南部最嚴重這也就是為什麼我認為說當空污問題的時候必須要放入到採化法要放入到這樣的一個指標裡面去做思考如果你沒有把這些做思考的時候其實對南部的長遠的發展是不利的南部還不斷的增加電廠然後空污更加嚴重然後甚至於很多石化產業鋼鐵產業持續在發展就反倒是在採化法方面反倒是對他們更加的苛刻我認為這個長遠是不利於發展的\n院長同意這樣的看法嗎請部長將來在跟地方談的時候以及目前手上的資料我們邀請環境部將所有的分析環境部要到各地方去了解真正的狀況能不能把它做一個完整來取得大家的同意如果共識高就往這個方向去執行\n因為多數像這些東西很多的發展他可能就是工廠是在南部所以他的污染空污嚴重的在南部但是他的總公司可能是在北部是在首都嘛是在台北所以你用營業稅這些對他們來說的稅是不公平的這極端的更加不公平本來就已經占到了國家很大的利益再繼續加上去\n這是雙重的一種剝奪對於整個雙重的不公平所以我們認為在將來院的一些在討論這件事情的時候一定要把這個指標去納入參考不要讓南部的人持續的雙重的傷害你為國家發展付出這麼多你應該得到更多的一些支持現在要努力的就是依照現在修正過的版本當中這個計算的權重比較得到\n利益比較多的縣市委員要發揮全國的正義感才能做到均衡的台灣不要只是自己的地方好那別人的地方沒有關係如果這樣子台灣永遠在一個不公平的狀態底下賴總統一直指示我們要用均衡台灣 健康台灣 團結台灣來作為政策推動的一個方向所以均衡台灣的重要希望委員能夠發揮全國的正義感\n所以我希望每一個立委其實都是全國的立委也都應該站在國家的高度來思考那不應該受到但是如果像這樣的一個修法的方式會導致到了這麼多的不公平不正義的狀況的發生的時候我認為其實立委們其實應該要站出來就像我最前面所提到的為什麼在2002年的時候會有12位立委缺席會有一位的\n投出廢票就是因為他們發現不妥這樣的修法的方向對中南部極度不公平對整個財化化分上面會產生更嚴重的強者越強弱者越弱強凌弱的這樣狀況重北侵南狀況所以這麼多有勇氣的立委們站出來我們期待待會晚一點的投票更多有勇氣的立委站出來如果沒有勇氣沒有道德良知的話那人民也都看在眼裡院長同意這樣的看法嗎\n我們共同來期待還有多十二位國家立委我們期待今天第二次的採訪有不一樣是成功的好嗎 院長我們繼續的努力院長加油喔 謝謝謝謝委員支持 謝謝好 謝謝賴委員 謝謝卓院長報告全院委員會各黨團推派的委員均已詢答完畢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.371 --> 00:01.556\n謝謝副院長,請卓院長請卓院長答詢\n\n00:10.680 --> 00:34.235\n院長辛苦了院長我想今天跟你討論一下財務法財務法其實在這20幾年來都曾經有人想要修過但是都沒有辦法成功因為他要整合各縣市整合到所有的其實難度相當的高2002年在馬英九擔任台北市長的時候也曾經想要送當時的時候的國會的多數一樣是國民黨\n\n00:35.396 --> 00:58.142\n他修的一樣是跟現在這個版本一樣是一個對台北有利重北侵難的一個版本但是後來在最後的整個復議案這也是第一次提出復議案財化法復議2002年提出復議案最後失敗了即使在國民黨佔多數的狀況下一樣有12位缺席1位投下反對票而導致了這個財化法復議成功\n\n00:59.644 --> 01:16.282\n當時有很多具有正義感而有良知的立委站了出來院長你有沒有信心待會的投票有更多的有正義感有良知的立委站出來第二次的呼籲再次的成功我期待今天在大院裡面的所有委員都要以國家為重\n\n01:17.196 --> 01:43.987\n每個委員都有選區為選區講話爭取應該的但是如果都為選區不為國家這個國家的走向是越來越艱辛的現在我們面對的威脅也日益嚴重我們需要更多的發展我們要跟支撐我們的產業向外佈局我們也要強化我們自己產業的升級我們都要很多由中央統一來做的事情那如果只是把它分散到地方去也許滿足了地方但是空虛了國防\n\n01:45.004 --> 02:14.216\n院長我要再次跟所有的人提醒這九年來經濟成長率跟我們的競爭力國家競爭力持續要提升表示國家在一個正確的方向上而這件事情如果這樣處理是對國家有利的不會這二十幾年來國民黨的國會佔多數的時間是多的而從來沒有休過因為它的難度非常的高而且重北輕南絕對不是國家有利的一個方向所以即使在馬英九擔任台北市長的時候他想要休也沒有成功\n\n02:14.736 --> 02:30.408\n到了2008年到2016年馬英九當到了總統的國會一樣多數雙多數的狀況下一樣沒有修法成功因為他們知道這是缺乏良知這對台灣的長遠是不利的所以國民黨其實在多數的狀況下一樣沒有修法\n\n02:30.848 --> 02:49.463\n這就是現在真實的狀況但是今年的立法院確實出現了亂象就是說完全不顧台灣的競爭力完全不顧南北的公平正義堅持要修復這一個不公平不正義而對台灣傷害的一個才華法我們認為今天應該有更多有良知的立委站出來投下關鍵的票\n\n02:50.023 --> 03:07.326\n全台灣的人民都在看歷史也都在看誰投下了沒票如果這些沒有良知的立委投出了這樣的票我想歷史會記上一筆台灣人民也會記上這一筆院長同意我這樣的看法嗎是的謝謝委員請委員支持也希望委員等一下能夠發揮更多的影響力\n\n03:08.838 --> 03:28.596\n讓更多跟委員可以接近委員想法的委員跟我們...院長我一定支持我也在發揮最後的影響力我是最會執行我在發揮最後的影響力希望藍白立委選來熱馬最後關鍵時刻再用你的良知想一下什麼樣的制度會選台灣是最好的復一案同意之後是回去重新討論\n\n03:29.617 --> 03:55.812\n重新討論可以把各個版本談出來如果這是一件容易的事情的話不會25年馬英九執政也無法做到包括國民黨國民黨國會的時候國書會多數也無法做到這只是回到重新討論而已這件事情其實對台灣長遠覺得是有利的我們希望藍白多數的立委們能夠站出來用你們良知來用你對人民的這個支持來站出來投下這一架關鍵的一票\n\n03:56.552 --> 04:24.420\n這對台灣的未來都有相當長遠的影響我要來講一下為什麼我認為這是一個這一次的修法是一個縱北傾南甚至縱南傾綠的一個修法我們看一下這個是初步我們統計出來的過去以來縱北傾南早就已經講到不想講了結果這一次的修法台北市可以拿到了410個初估的而南部的台南拿到163高雄拿到245最低的比例都在南部最高的比例都在北部\n\n04:25.560 --> 04:48.937\n這絕對是一個重北輕藍的修法包括稍微我把藍綠稍微標出來了藍的縣市全部多數獲得比較多的分配的利益綠的縣市全部獲得比較少的這簡直是先設建再劃靶嘛就根本就是因具有政治的意圖而去做這樣的一個修法這樣的修法人民能接受嗎這麼具有高度政治性的修法人民接受\n\n04:49.637 --> 05:13.450\n在2002年馬英九當台北市長的時候修法跟這個完全一樣當時把所得稅從10%修到30%把這個營業稅從40%修到50%跟這次的標準一樣完全著重在這些指標這些指標就是台北有利的指標就對北部有利的指標如果都用這樣的修法方式的話那又走回了重北親南的老路人民能接受嗎?院長同意這樣的看法嗎?如果這種委員所指出的這種藍綠的版圖\n\n05:19.520 --> 05:29.926\n有一天發生變化的時候那今天在這裡主張的人怎麼回去地方跟他們的地方的人士說過去的主張是對還是不錯對還是不對還是要繼續調整\n\n05:32.109 --> 06:00.420\n難道一旦版圖發生變化要重新再來一次嗎這就是不能用藍綠的版圖來劃分這種只要講一個簡單的嘛過去我們都認為縱北侵藍是不對的應該要區域均衡發展嘛你這樣就走回來勞碌嘛跟馬英九當年那個思考又有什麼不一樣更何況這是縱藍侵綠嘛你若用政治的思維來處理事情那下次換另外一黨拿到國會多數再改一次嗎用這樣的方式思維嗎這國家哪會長什麼長期久安國家經不起這樣的折騰\n\n06:01.500 --> 06:29.313\n所以我認為這樣的修法絕對是一個政治性的修法絕對是一個摧毀台灣財政機率絕對是一個影響到台灣競爭力的錯誤的修法我們希望藍白立委有良知的立委站出來待會再賦予一票投出關鍵的重要的決定全世界都在看全台灣都在看歷史會留下這樣的紀錄讓我們部長能夠跟地方的溝通這最後一里路能夠把它完成我們就可以跟大家討論一個立法院行政院都能夠接受的版本\n\n06:31.014 --> 06:50.367\n我也有提出修法這一屆的我第一個提出修法我就是認為空污的指標要拉進來我認為這個採訪法要修該修但是不容易修但是我們要努力朝這個方向但絕不是像這樣子具有政治性具有重北輕南的思維下來亂修一通這種的修法對台灣絕對長遠是傷害的我們來看一下這個指標裡面的指標\n\n06:53.829 --> 07:20.189\n我為什麼說是先設建再畫吧裡面指標這個資源集中在雙北包括它以土地面積把它給大幅的調降土地面積雙北的人口密度最高南部高雄台南這都非常大的面積你調降那對南部是不利的嘛包括你把人口的指標大幅提升人口由南部往北移還是一個趨勢嘛你把這些調移升的時候\n\n07:21.130 --> 07:48.326\n新北台北就最大的獲利嘛這實在讓南北加劇就這個節貧計富嘛本來就已經很辛苦的南部你還這樣子搞下去那不是更多資源集中在台北那是逼更多中南部的往台北集中嗎這就是個錯誤的思維嘛包括產業結構外部城北沒有思考中南部過去都是工業城市空污嚴重全部空污最嚴重的都在中南部結果你這些指標沒有放進來然後還把這些放掉之後\n\n07:49.066 --> 08:07.729\n結果只導致了整個區域的差異更加擴大我們認為這些都是錯誤的指標甚至於你把三千多億拿走之後你把本來中央有機會調配的一個方式也全部拿走了很多區域間可以做調配的完全拿掉了讓台北強者越強南部弱者越弱\n\n08:08.650 --> 08:27.703\n成鄉差距越來越大這對國家怎麼會是一個好的發展所以我們認為財化法未來該修但是是應該先複製回去之後重新再來討論我有我的主張我認為對於產業對於人口對於土地都應該做一些調整但絕對不是現在國民黨強行通過這種版本院長同意這樣的看法嗎\n\n08:28.383 --> 08:50.463\n我也希望將來如果有機會能夠重新審議委員這樣的主張能夠在廣泛討論的時候能夠被充分的重視大家互相的充分的討論那再經過整個程序正義的民主投票來形成一個兩院跟中央地方都能夠接受院長我先提一個未來請你重視這個問題好不好對於空屋的貢獻度這絕對應該要作為財化分配的依據院長可以同意這樣的看法嗎\n\n08:51.887 --> 09:08.499\n我知道委員提出來的草案裡面確實有這樣的一個指標那這個部分我們也會徵詢相關譬如說環境部怎麼樣來指標來定的可以具體不要讓南部為了空屋電力也在增加空屋也在增加然後反倒分配稅款反而是少的\n\n09:09.460 --> 09:26.974\n非常的不公平我認為這個部分應該在藉由中央的調節功能上給予合理的一些支持這個才能夠縮減整個差距我們希望這一屆院長跟部長能夠支持再來我先請教一下如果今天的副議案沒有通過的話院長行政院的下一步是什麼會提釋憲或提暫時處分嗎\n\n09:29.836 --> 09:55.344\n因為財化法是依照憲法147條裡面重要的精神跟規定所以公法學者形容它是一個財政憲法所以如果它違背了憲法的精神那我們可以研究甚至我們進一步去推動將來在有沒有違反憲政秩序上面它如果應該走向這條路的話這都是未來救濟方式的一種所以院長如果那個話你不排除走這條路嗎是嗎\n\n09:56.844 --> 10:23.355\n這個在我們各種方式裡面都有所以會考慮採用這樣的方式我們現在沒有放棄任何的努力沒有放棄的就是待會看表決的結果嘛對不對如果表決結果出來了呼籲案並沒有通過的話那院裡面不排除走這樣這條路嗎憲政的程序的路嗎憲法已經給我們這樣的義務那憲法的程序就是釋憲跟暫時處分那院長會提暫時處分嗎至少不要讓這些受害的程序擴大那問題就在大法官現在的\n\n10:25.062 --> 10:31.027\n開會的人數又被對那這樣就是另外一個問題就是立法院已經癱瘓掉了大法官所以變無解了嘛變成整個把國家整個癱瘓掉了嘛喔院長遺憾這樣的一個發展的方向嗎這個是從來沒有我們\n\n10:41.142 --> 11:05.107\n這麼多年以來在發展民主政治過程當中也一直在維持這個五院的體制是從來沒有發生過的現狀從來沒有發生過立法院搞到把自己搞成獨大不是立法院獨大是藍白立院獨大這完全已經把可以把總統府把其他四院的權益全部影響掉了我從來沒有看過這樣狀況這已經完全超越了整個憲法超越了所有大家能夠理解的範圍\n\n11:06.527 --> 11:25.505\n藍白多數的國會亂搞一通搞成這樣真的是大家無法接受我再來問最後一個婦醫案如果沒有通過的話這個大概有可能提出事件那院長會現在講到大家開始會有很多下鄉宣講如果民間團體或各個邀請你去下鄉宣講你會去參與嗎我會把握各種\n\n11:27.376 --> 11:37.285\n時間跟方式很樂意也積極的跟國人說明我們未來的國家政策的推動甚至於我們如果有任何自在難行的地方我也要取得國人的理解\n\n11:37.894 --> 12:07.094\n窮盡一切可能要告訴社會各界當立法院已經無法溝通當社會各界的時候作為行政院院長作為整個部會首長都應該讓社會知道到底發生什麼樣的事情要扭轉住這樣的一個局面讓國家那個持續往前走中時的向人民報告我們期待院長持續來跟社會做更多溝通再來我還是要提一下這個我剛講到的這個空屋的這個狀況請院長跟部長看一下南部的部分整個空屋最嚴重地區從雲林到高雄嘉義\n\n12:08.295 --> 12:10.259\n縣市到南投到台南基本上\n\n12:10.922 --> 12:36.875\n都是在南部最嚴重這也就是為什麼我認為說當空污問題的時候必須要放入到採化法要放入到這樣的一個指標裡面去做思考如果你沒有把這些做思考的時候其實對南部的長遠的發展是不利的南部還不斷的增加電廠然後空污更加嚴重然後甚至於很多石化產業鋼鐵產業持續在發展就反倒是在採化法方面反倒是對他們更加的苛刻我認為這個長遠是不利於發展的\n\n12:39.062 --> 12:54.860\n院長同意這樣的看法嗎請部長將來在跟地方談的時候以及目前手上的資料我們邀請環境部將所有的分析環境部要到各地方去了解真正的狀況能不能把它做一個完整來取得大家的同意如果共識高就往這個方向去執行\n\n12:54.940 --> 13:14.402\n因為多數像這些東西很多的發展他可能就是工廠是在南部所以他的污染空污嚴重的在南部但是他的總公司可能是在北部是在首都嘛是在台北所以你用營業稅這些對他們來說的稅是不公平的這極端的更加不公平本來就已經占到了國家很大的利益再繼續加上去\n\n13:16.504 --> 13:39.344\n這是雙重的一種剝奪對於整個雙重的不公平所以我們認為在將來院的一些在討論這件事情的時候一定要把這個指標去納入參考不要讓南部的人持續的雙重的傷害你為國家發展付出這麼多你應該得到更多的一些支持現在要努力的就是依照現在修正過的版本當中這個計算的權重比較得到\n\n13:40.665 --> 14:05.466\n利益比較多的縣市委員要發揮全國的正義感才能做到均衡的台灣不要只是自己的地方好那別人的地方沒有關係如果這樣子台灣永遠在一個不公平的狀態底下賴總統一直指示我們要用均衡台灣健康台灣團結台灣來作為政策推動的一個方向所以均衡台灣的重要希望委員能夠發揮全國的正義感\n\n14:06.590 --> 14:32.944\n所以我希望每一個立委其實都是全國的立委也都應該站在國家的高度來思考那不應該受到但是如果像這樣的一個修法的方式會導致到了這麼多的不公平不正義的狀況的發生的時候我認為其實立委們其實應該要站出來就像我最前面所提到的為什麼在2002年的時候會有12位立委缺席會有一位的\n\n14:34.045 --> 15:00.818\n投出廢票就是因為他們發現不妥這樣的修法的方向對中南部極度不公平對整個財化化分上面會產生更嚴重的強者越強弱者越弱強凌弱的這樣狀況重北侵南狀況所以這麼多有勇氣的立委們站出來我們期待待會晚一點的投票更多有勇氣的立委站出來如果沒有勇氣沒有道德良知的話那人民也都看在眼裡院長同意這樣的看法嗎\n\n15:01.138 --> 15:14.516\n我們共同來期待還有多十二位國家立委我們期待今天第二次的採訪有不一樣是成功的好嗎院長我們繼續的努力院長加油喔謝謝謝謝委員支持謝謝好謝謝賴委員謝謝卓院長報告全院委員會各黨團推派的委員均已詢答完畢\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.371,"end":1.556,"text":"謝謝副院長,請卓院長請卓院長答詢"},{"start":10.68,"end":34.235,"text":"院長辛苦了院長我想今天跟你討論一下財務法財務法其實在這20幾年來都曾經有人想要修過但是都沒有辦法成功因為他要整合各縣市整合到所有的其實難度相當的高2002年在馬英九擔任台北市長的時候也曾經想要送當時的時候的國會的多數一樣是國民黨"},{"start":35.396,"end":58.142,"text":"他修的一樣是跟現在這個版本一樣是一個對台北有利 重北侵難的一個版本但是後來在最後的整個復議案這也是第一次提出復議案財化法復議2002年提出復議案最後失敗了即使在國民黨佔多數的狀況下一樣有12位缺席 1位投下反對票而導致了這個財化法復議成功"},{"start":59.644,"end":76.282,"text":"當時有很多具有正義感而有良知的立委站了出來院長你有沒有信心待會的投票有更多的有正義感有良知的立委站出來第二次的呼籲再次的成功我期待今天在大院裡面的所有委員都要以國家為重"},{"start":77.196,"end":103.987,"text":"每個委員都有選區為選區講話爭取應該的但是如果都為選區不為國家這個國家的走向是越來越艱辛的現在我們面對的威脅也日益嚴重我們需要更多的發展我們要跟支撐我們的產業向外佈局我們也要強化我們自己產業的升級我們都要很多由中央統一來做的事情那如果只是把它分散到地方去也許滿足了地方但是空虛了國防"},{"start":105.004,"end":134.216,"text":"院長我要再次跟所有的人提醒這九年來經濟成長率跟我們的競爭力國家競爭力持續要提升表示國家在一個正確的方向上而這件事情如果這樣處理是對國家有利的不會這二十幾年來國民黨的國會佔多數的時間是多的而從來沒有休過因為它的難度非常的高而且重北輕南絕對不是國家有利的一個方向所以即使在馬英九擔任台北市長的時候他想要休也沒有成功"},{"start":134.736,"end":150.408,"text":"到了2008年到2016年馬英九當到了總統的國會一樣多數雙多數的狀況下一樣沒有修法成功因為他們知道這是缺乏良知這對台灣的長遠是不利的所以國民黨其實在多數的狀況下一樣沒有修法"},{"start":150.848,"end":169.463,"text":"這就是現在真實的狀況但是今年的立法院確實出現了亂象就是說完全不顧台灣的競爭力完全不顧南北的公平正義堅持要修復這一個不公平不正義而對台灣傷害的一個才華法我們認為今天應該有更多有良知的立委站出來投下關鍵的票"},{"start":170.023,"end":187.326,"text":"全台灣的人民都在看歷史也都在看誰投下了沒票如果這些沒有良知的立委投出了這樣的票我想歷史會記上一筆台灣人民也會記上這一筆院長同意我這樣的看法嗎是的 謝謝委員請委員支持也希望委員等一下能夠發揮更多的影響力"},{"start":188.838,"end":208.596,"text":"讓更多跟委員可以接近委員想法的委員跟我們...院長 我一定支持我也在發揮最後的影響力我是最會執行 我在發揮最後的影響力希望藍白立委選來熱馬最後關鍵時刻再用你的良知想一下什麼樣的制度會選台灣是最好的復一案同意之後是回去重新討論"},{"start":209.617,"end":235.812,"text":"重新討論可以把各個版本談出來如果這是一件容易的事情的話不會25年馬英九執政也無法做到包括國民黨國民黨國會的時候國書會多數也無法做到這只是回到重新討論而已這件事情其實對台灣長遠覺得是有利的我們希望藍白多數的立委們能夠站出來用你們良知來用你對人民的這個支持來站出來投下這一架關鍵的一票"},{"start":236.552,"end":264.42,"text":"這對台灣的未來都有相當長遠的影響我要來講一下為什麼我認為這是一個這一次的修法是一個縱北傾南甚至縱南傾綠的一個修法我們看一下這個是初步我們統計出來的過去以來縱北傾南早就已經講到不想講了結果這一次的修法台北市可以拿到了410個初估的而南部的台南拿到163高雄拿到245最低的比例都在南部最高的比例都在北部"},{"start":265.56,"end":288.937,"text":"這絕對是一個重北輕藍的修法包括 稍微我把藍綠稍微標出來了藍的縣市全部多數獲得比較多的分配的利益綠的縣市全部獲得比較少的這簡直是先設建再劃靶嘛就根本就是因具有政治的意圖而去做這樣的一個修法這樣的修法人民能接受嗎這麼具有高度政治性的修法人民接受"},{"start":289.637,"end":313.45,"text":"在2002年馬英九當台北市長的時候修法跟這個完全一樣當時把所得稅從10%修到30%把這個營業稅從40%修到50%跟這次的標準一樣完全著重在這些指標這些指標就是台北有利的指標就對北部有利的指標如果都用這樣的修法方式的話那又走回了重北親南的老路人民能接受嗎?院長同意這樣的看法嗎?如果這種委員所指出的這種藍綠的版圖"},{"start":319.52,"end":329.926,"text":"有一天發生變化的時候那今天在這裡主張的人怎麼回去地方跟他們的地方的人士說過去的主張是對還是不錯對還是不對還是要繼續調整"},{"start":332.109,"end":360.42,"text":"難道一旦版圖發生變化要重新再來一次嗎這就是不能用藍綠的版圖來劃分這種只要講一個簡單的嘛過去我們都認為縱北侵藍是不對的應該要區域均衡發展嘛你這樣就走回來勞碌嘛跟馬英九當年那個思考又有什麼不一樣更何況這是縱藍侵綠嘛你若用政治的思維來處理事情那下次換另外一黨拿到國會多數再改一次嗎用這樣的方式思維嗎這國家哪會長什麼長期久安國家經不起這樣的折騰"},{"start":361.5,"end":389.313,"text":"所以我認為這樣的修法絕對是一個政治性的修法絕對是一個摧毀台灣財政機率絕對是一個影響到台灣競爭力的錯誤的修法我們希望藍白立委有良知的立委站出來待會再賦予一票投出關鍵的重要的決定全世界都在看 全台灣都在看歷史會留下這樣的紀錄讓我們部長能夠跟地方的溝通這最後一里路能夠把它完成我們就可以跟大家討論一個立法院 行政院都能夠接受的版本"},{"start":391.014,"end":410.367,"text":"我也有提出修法這一屆的我第一個提出修法我就是認為空污的指標要拉進來我認為這個採訪法要修 該修但是不容易修但是我們要努力朝這個方向但絕不是像這樣子具有政治性具有重北輕南的思維下來亂修一通這種的修法對台灣絕對長遠是傷害的我們來看一下這個指標裡面的指標"},{"start":413.829,"end":440.189,"text":"我為什麼說是先設建再畫吧裡面指標這個資源集中在雙北包括它以土地面積把它給大幅的調降土地面積雙北的人口密度最高南部高雄台南這都非常大的面積你調降那對南部是不利的嘛包括你把人口的指標大幅提升人口由南部往北移還是一個趨勢嘛你把這些調移升的時候"},{"start":441.13,"end":468.326,"text":"新北台北就最大的獲利嘛這實在讓南北加劇就這個節貧計富嘛本來就已經很辛苦的南部你還這樣子搞下去那不是更多資源集中在台北那是逼更多中南部的往台北集中嗎這就是個錯誤的思維嘛包括產業結構外部城北沒有思考中南部過去都是工業城市空污嚴重全部空污最嚴重的都在中南部結果你這些指標沒有放進來然後還把這些放掉之後"},{"start":469.066,"end":487.729,"text":"結果只導致了整個區域的差異更加擴大我們認為這些都是錯誤的指標甚至於你把三千多億拿走之後你把本來中央有機會調配的一個方式也全部拿走了很多區域間可以做調配的完全拿掉了讓台北強者越強南部弱者越弱"},{"start":488.65,"end":507.703,"text":"成鄉差距越來越大 這對國家怎麼會是一個好的發展所以我們認為 財化法未來該修 但是是應該先複製回去之後重新再來討論我有我的主張 我認為對於產業 對於人口 對於土地都應該做一些調整但絕對不是現在國民黨強行通過這種版本院長同意這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":508.383,"end":530.463,"text":"我也希望將來如果有機會能夠重新審議委員這樣的主張能夠在廣泛討論的時候能夠被充分的重視大家互相的充分的討論那再經過整個程序正義的民主投票來形成一個兩院跟中央地方都能夠接受院長我先提一個未來請你重視這個問題好不好對於空屋的貢獻度這絕對應該要作為財化分配的依據院長可以同意這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":531.887,"end":548.499,"text":"我知道委員提出來的草案裡面確實有這樣的一個指標那這個部分我們也會徵詢相關譬如說環境部怎麼樣來指標來定的可以具體不要讓南部為了空屋電力也在增加空屋也在增加然後反倒分配稅款反而是少的"},{"start":549.46,"end":566.974,"text":"非常的不公平我認為這個部分應該在藉由中央的調節功能上給予合理的一些支持這個才能夠縮減整個差距我們希望這一屆院長跟部長能夠支持再來我先請教一下如果今天的副議案沒有通過的話院長 行政院的下一步是什麼會提釋憲或提暫時處分嗎"},{"start":569.836,"end":595.344,"text":"因為財化法是依照憲法147條裡面重要的精神跟規定所以公法學者形容它是一個財政憲法所以如果它違背了憲法的精神那我們可以研究甚至我們進一步去推動將來在有沒有違反憲政秩序上面它如果應該走向這條路的話這都是未來救濟方式的一種所以院長如果那個話你不排除走這條路嗎 是嗎"},{"start":596.844,"end":623.355,"text":"這個在我們各種方式裡面都有所以會考慮採用這樣的方式我們現在沒有放棄任何的努力沒有放棄的就是待會看表決的結果嘛對不對如果表決結果出來了呼籲案並沒有通過的話那院裡面不排除走這樣這條路嗎憲政的程序的路嗎憲法已經給我們這樣的義務那憲法的程序就是釋憲跟暫時處分那院長會提暫時處分嗎至少不要讓這些受害的程序擴大那問題就在大法官現在的"},{"start":625.062,"end":631.027,"text":"開會的人數又被對那這樣就是另外一個問題就是立法院已經癱瘓掉了大法官所以變無解了嘛變成整個把國家整個癱瘓掉了嘛喔院長遺憾這樣的一個發展的方向嗎這個是從來沒有我們"},{"start":641.142,"end":665.107,"text":"這麼多年以來在發展民主政治過程當中也一直在維持這個五院的體制是從來沒有發生過的現狀從來沒有發生過立法院搞到把自己搞成獨大不是立法院獨大是藍白立院獨大這完全已經把可以把總統府把其他四院的權益全部影響掉了我從來沒有看過這樣狀況這已經完全超越了整個憲法超越了所有大家能夠理解的範圍"},{"start":666.527,"end":685.505,"text":"藍白多數的國會亂搞一通搞成這樣真的是大家無法接受我再來問最後一個婦醫案如果沒有通過的話這個大概有可能提出事件那院長會現在講到大家開始會有很多下鄉宣講如果民間團體或各個邀請你去下鄉宣講你會去參與嗎我會把握各種"},{"start":687.376,"end":697.285,"text":"時間跟方式很樂意也積極的跟國人說明我們未來的國家政策的推動甚至於我們如果有任何自在難行的地方我也要取得國人的理解"},{"start":697.894,"end":727.094,"text":"窮盡一切可能要告訴社會各界當立法院已經無法溝通當社會各界的時候作為行政院院長作為整個部會首長都應該讓社會知道到底發生什麼樣的事情要扭轉住這樣的一個局面讓國家那個持續往前走中時的向人民報告我們期待院長持續來跟社會做更多溝通再來我還是要提一下這個我剛講到的這個空屋的這個狀況請院長跟部長看一下南部的部分整個空屋最嚴重地區從雲林到高雄嘉義"},{"start":728.295,"end":730.259,"text":"縣市到南投到台南基本上"},{"start":730.922,"end":756.875,"text":"都是在南部最嚴重這也就是為什麼我認為說當空污問題的時候必須要放入到採化法要放入到這樣的一個指標裡面去做思考如果你沒有把這些做思考的時候其實對南部的長遠的發展是不利的南部還不斷的增加電廠然後空污更加嚴重然後甚至於很多石化產業鋼鐵產業持續在發展就反倒是在採化法方面反倒是對他們更加的苛刻我認為這個長遠是不利於發展的"},{"start":759.062,"end":774.86,"text":"院長同意這樣的看法嗎請部長將來在跟地方談的時候以及目前手上的資料我們邀請環境部將所有的分析環境部要到各地方去了解真正的狀況能不能把它做一個完整來取得大家的同意如果共識高就往這個方向去執行"},{"start":774.94,"end":794.402,"text":"因為多數像這些東西很多的發展他可能就是工廠是在南部所以他的污染空污嚴重的在南部但是他的總公司可能是在北部是在首都嘛是在台北所以你用營業稅這些對他們來說的稅是不公平的這極端的更加不公平本來就已經占到了國家很大的利益再繼續加上去"},{"start":796.504,"end":819.344,"text":"這是雙重的一種剝奪對於整個雙重的不公平所以我們認為在將來院的一些在討論這件事情的時候一定要把這個指標去納入參考不要讓南部的人持續的雙重的傷害你為國家發展付出這麼多你應該得到更多的一些支持現在要努力的就是依照現在修正過的版本當中這個計算的權重比較得到"},{"start":820.665,"end":845.466,"text":"利益比較多的縣市委員要發揮全國的正義感才能做到均衡的台灣不要只是自己的地方好那別人的地方沒有關係如果這樣子台灣永遠在一個不公平的狀態底下賴總統一直指示我們要用均衡台灣 健康台灣 團結台灣來作為政策推動的一個方向所以均衡台灣的重要希望委員能夠發揮全國的正義感"},{"start":846.59,"end":872.944,"text":"所以我希望每一個立委其實都是全國的立委也都應該站在國家的高度來思考那不應該受到但是如果像這樣的一個修法的方式會導致到了這麼多的不公平不正義的狀況的發生的時候我認為其實立委們其實應該要站出來就像我最前面所提到的為什麼在2002年的時候會有12位立委缺席會有一位的"},{"start":874.045,"end":900.818,"text":"投出廢票就是因為他們發現不妥這樣的修法的方向對中南部極度不公平對整個財化化分上面會產生更嚴重的強者越強弱者越弱強凌弱的這樣狀況重北侵南狀況所以這麼多有勇氣的立委們站出來我們期待待會晚一點的投票更多有勇氣的立委站出來如果沒有勇氣沒有道德良知的話那人民也都看在眼裡院長同意這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":901.138,"end":914.516,"text":"我們共同來期待還有多十二位國家立委我們期待今天第二次的採訪有不一樣是成功的好嗎 院長我們繼續的努力院長加油喔 謝謝謝謝委員支持 謝謝好 謝謝賴委員 謝謝卓院長報告全院委員會各黨團推派的委員均已詢答完畢"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":298,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（15時34分）謝謝副院長，請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長答詢。"],["賴委員瑞隆：院長辛苦了。"],["卓院長榮泰：賴委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：院長，我想今天跟你討論一下財劃法。其實財劃法在這二十幾年來，都曾經有人想要修過，但是都沒有辦法成功，因為它要整合各縣市，把所有的都整合到其實難度相當地高。2002年馬英九擔任臺北市長的時候也曾經想要送，當時國會的多數一樣是國民黨，它要修的跟現在這個版本一樣是對臺北有利、重北輕南的一個版本，但是後來在最後的覆議案（這也是第一次提出的覆議案）財劃法在2002年提出的覆議案最後失敗了。其實在國民黨占多數的狀況下，一樣有12位缺席，1位投下反對票，導致這個財劃法覆議成功，當時有很多具有正義感而有良知的立委站了出來。院長，你有沒有信心，待會的投票會有更多有正義感、有良知的立委站出來，讓第二次的覆議再次成功？"],["卓院長榮泰：我期待今天大院裡面所有的委員都要以國家為重，每個委員都有選區，為選區講話、爭取是應該的，但是如果都為選區，不為國家，這個國家的走向就會越來越艱辛。現在我們面對的威脅也日益嚴重，我們需要更多的發展，我們要支撐我們的產業向外布局，也要強化我們自己產業的升級，有很多要由中央統一來做的事情。如果只是把它分散到地方去，也許滿足了地方，但卻空虛了國防。"],["賴委員瑞隆：院長，我要再次地跟所有的人提醒，這9年來的經濟成長率跟我們國家的競爭力持續在提升，表示國家在一個正確的方向上，而這件事情如果這樣處理是對國家有利的，不會這二十幾年來，國民黨的國會占多數的時間是多的，卻從來沒有修過。因為它的難度非常高，而且重北輕南絕對不是對國家有利的一個方向，所以即使在馬英九擔任臺北市長的時候，他想要修也沒有成功。","當2008年到2016年馬英九當總統，國民黨在國會一樣是多數，在雙多數的狀況下，一樣沒有修法成功，因為他們知道這是缺乏良知，這對臺灣長遠是不利的，所以國民黨其實在多數的狀況下一樣沒有修法，這就是現在真實的狀況。但是今年立法院確實出現了亂象，完全不顧臺灣的競爭力，完全不顧南北的公平正義，堅持要修出這個不公平、不正義而對臺灣有傷害的財劃法。","我們認為，今天應該要有更多有良知的立委站出來投下關鍵票，全臺灣的人民都在看，歷史也都在看誰投下的每一票。如果這些沒有良知的立委投出了這樣的票，我想歷史會記上一筆，臺灣人民也會記上這一筆，院長同意我這樣的看法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，謝謝委員，請委員支持，也希望委員等一下能夠發揮更多的影響力，讓更多與委員想法接近的委員跟我們一起……"],["賴委員瑞隆：院長，我一定支持，我也在發揮最後的影響力，我是最後一位質詢的，希望藍、白立委懸崖勒馬，在最後的關鍵時刻再用你的良知想一下，什麼樣的制度對全臺灣是最好的。覆議案同意之後是回去重新討論，重新討論可以把各個版本談出來，如果這是一件容易的事情，不會25年來連馬英九執政也無法做到，包括國民黨在當國會多數的時候也無法做到。這只是回到重新討論而已，這件事情其實對臺灣長遠是有利的，我們希望藍、白多數的立委們能夠站出來，用你們的良知、用你對人民的支持站出來投下關鍵的一票，這對臺灣的未來都有相當長遠的影響。","我要講一下，為什麼我認為這一次的修法是一個重北輕南，甚至重藍輕綠的一個修法。我們看一下，這個是我們初步統計出來的，過去以來重北輕南早就已經講到不想講了，結果這一次的修法，臺北市可以拿到了416億，這是初估的，而南部的臺南拿到163億，高雄拿到245億。最低的比例都在南部，最高的比例都在北部，這絕對是一個重北輕南的修法，包括……我把藍、綠稍微標出來，藍的縣市全部都獲得比較多分配的利益，綠的縣市全部獲得比較少的，這簡直是先射箭再畫靶嘛！根本就是已經具有政治的意圖而去做這樣的一個修法，這樣的修法，人民能接受嗎？這麼具有高度政治性的修法，人民接受？","2002年馬英九當臺北市長的時候，修的法跟這個完全一樣，當時把所得稅從10%修到30%，把營業稅從40%修到50%，跟這次的標準一樣，完全著重在這些指標，這些指標就是臺北有利的指標，就是對北部有利的指標，如果都用這樣的修法方式的話，那又走回了重北輕南的老路，人民能接受嗎？院長，同意這樣的看法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果委員所指出的這種藍綠的版圖有一天發生變化的時候，那今天在這裡主張的人怎麼回去地方跟他們地方的人士說，過去的主張是對，還是不對，還是要繼續調整？難道一旦版圖發生變化，要重新再來一次嗎？"],["賴委員瑞隆：只要講一個……"],["卓院長榮泰：這就是不能用藍綠的版圖來劃分這種權重……"],["賴委員瑞隆：只要講一個簡單的，過去我們都認為重北輕南是不對的，應該要區域均衡發展嘛！你這樣又走回了老路，跟馬英九當年那個思考又有什麼不一樣？更何況這是重藍輕綠，你如果用政治的思維要處理這個事情，那下次換另外一黨拿到國會多數，再改一次嗎？再用這樣的思維方式嗎？這樣國家哪會什麼長治久安！"],["卓院長榮泰：國家禁不起這樣的折騰。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我認為這樣的修法絕對是一個政治性的修法，絕對是一個摧毀臺灣財政紀律、絕對是一個影響到臺灣競爭力的錯誤修法！我們希望藍白有良知的立委站出來，待會在覆議票投出關鍵的重要的決定，全世界都在看、全臺灣都在看，歷史會留下這樣的紀錄。"],["卓院長榮泰：讓我們部長能夠跟地方溝通，這最後一哩路能夠完成，我們就可以跟大家討論一個立法院、行政院都能夠接受的版本，地方、中央都能夠同意的版本。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我也有提出修法，這一屆我第一個提出修法，我就是認為空污的指標要納進來，我認為財劃法要修、該修，但是不容易修，我們要努力朝這個方向，但絕不是像這樣子具有政治性、在具有重北輕南思維下的亂修一通，這種修法對臺灣的長遠絕對是傷害的。","我們來看一下這個指標，裡面的指標我為什麼說是先射箭再畫靶？裡面的指標是資源集中在雙北。包括把土地面積大幅的調降，就土地面積，雙北的人口密度最高，南部（像高雄、臺南）的土地面積則都非常大，你調降當然對南部是不利的。包括把人口的指標大幅提升，人口由南部往北移還是一個趨勢，你把這些調升的時候，新北、臺北就是最大的獲利，這只是讓南北差距加劇，就劫貧濟富嘛！本來就已經很辛苦的南部，你還這樣子搞下去，那不是更多資源集中在臺北？那不是逼更多中南部的往臺北集中嗎？這就是個錯誤的思維。包括產業結構、外部成本也沒有思考，中南部過去都是工業城市，空污嚴重，全部空污最嚴重的都在中南部，結果你這些指標沒有放進來，還把這些放掉，只導致了整個區域的差距更加擴大。我們認為這些都是錯誤的指標，甚至於你把三千多億拿走之後，把本來中央有機會調配的方式也全部拿走了，很多區域間可以做調配的完全拿掉了，那只讓臺北強者越強，南部弱者越弱，城鄉差距越來越大！這對國家怎麼會是一個好的發展？所以我們認為財劃法未來該修，但是應該是先覆議回去之後，重新再來討論，我也有我的主張，我認為對於產業、對於人口、對於土地都應該做一些調整，但絕對不是現在國民黨強行通過的這種版本，院長同意這樣的看法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我也希望將來如果有機會能夠重新審議，委員這樣的主張能夠在廣泛討論的時候被充分的重視，大家互相的充分討論，再經過整個程序正義的民主投票，來形成一個兩院和中央地方都能夠接受……"],["賴委員瑞隆：院長，我先提一個，未來請你重視這個問題，好不好？對於空污的貢獻度，這絕對應該要作為財劃分配的依據，院長可以同意這樣的看法嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我知道委員提出來的草案裡面確實有這樣的一個指標，這個部分我們也會徵詢相關機關，譬如環境部，看怎麼樣來讓指標可以訂的具體。"],["賴委員瑞隆：不要讓南部為了空污，電力也在增加，空污也在增加，分配稅款反而是少的，這對他們非常的不公平！我認為這個部分應該藉由中央的調節功能上給予合理的支持，這個才能夠縮減整個差距，我們希望這件院長及部長能夠支持。","再來，我想請教一下，如果今天的覆議案沒有通過的話，院長，行政院的下一步是什麼？會提釋憲或提暫時處分嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為財劃法是依照憲法第一百四十七條裡面的重要精神及規定，公法學者形容它是一個財政憲法，所以如果它違背了憲法的精神，我們可以研究，甚至我們進一步去推動，將來在有沒有違反憲政秩序上面，它如果應該走向這條路的話，這都是未來救濟方式的一種。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以院長，如果那樣的話，你不排除走這條路，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個在我們各種方式裡面都有。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以會考慮採用這樣的方式？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在沒有放棄任何的努力。"],["賴委員瑞隆：沒有放棄任何的努力，就是待會看表決的結果，對不對？如果表決結果出來了，覆議案並沒有通過的話，那院裡面不排除走這樣一條路──憲政程序的路嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：憲法已經給我們這樣的義務……"],["賴委員瑞隆：憲法的程序就是釋憲跟暫時處分，那院長會提暫時處分嗎？至少不要讓這些受害的程序擴大。"],["卓院長榮泰：那問題就在大法官現在開會的人數又被……"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，那這樣又是另外一個問題，就是立法院已經癱瘓掉大法官……"],["卓院長榮泰：已經變成這樣子了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以變無解了嘛！變成把國家整個癱瘓掉了嘛！院長遺憾這樣的一個發展方向嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是從來沒有……我們這麼多年以來在發展民主政治過程當中，也一直在維繫這個五院的體制，是從來沒有發生過的現象。"],["賴委員瑞隆：從來沒有發生過立法院把自己搞成獨大，不是立法院獨大，是藍白立院獨大，這已經完全可以把總統府、把其他四院的權益全部影響掉了，我從來沒有看過這樣狀況，這已經完全的超越了整個憲法，超越了所有大家能夠理解的範圍，藍白多數的國會亂搞一通，搞成這樣真的是大家無法接受。","我再問最後一個，覆議案如果沒有通過的話，大概很有可能提出釋憲，院長，現在講到大家開始會有很多下鄉宣講，如果民間團體邀請你去下鄉宣講，你會去參與嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會把握各種時間跟方式，很樂意也積極的跟國人說明我們未來國家政策的推動，甚至於我們如果有任何窒礙難行的地方，我也要取得國人的理解。"],["賴委員瑞隆：窮盡一切可能要告訴社會各界，當立法院已經無法溝通，作為行政院院長、作為整個部會首長，都應該讓社會知道到底發生什麼樣的事情，要扭轉這樣的一個局面，讓國家能夠持續往前走。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，忠實的向人民報告。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，我們期待院長持續來跟社會做更多溝通。","再來，我還是要提一下我剛剛講到的空污的這個狀況，請院長跟部長看一下，南部整個空污最嚴重的地區從雲林到高雄、到嘉義縣市、到南投、到臺南，基本上都是在南部最嚴重，這也就是為什麼我認為有關於空污的問題，財劃法要放入這樣的一個指標去思考。如果你沒有把這些放入做思考的時候，對南部長遠的發展是不利的。南部還不斷在增加電廠，空污更加嚴重，甚至於很多石化產業、鋼鐵產業持續在發展，結果在財劃法方面反倒是對他們更加的苛刻，我認為這個長遠是不利於發展的，院長同意這樣的看法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長將來在跟地方談的時候，以及目前手上的資料，我們也要請環境部分析，環境部也要到各地方去了解真正的狀況，看能不能把它做完整，取得大家的同意，如果共識高，就往這個方向去執行。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為像這些東西很多的發展，它可能就是工廠是在南部，所以它的污染、空污嚴重都在南部，但是它的總公司可能設在北部、設在首都、設在臺北……"],["卓院長榮泰：現象很普遍。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以你用營業稅、所得稅這些對他們來說是不公平，這極端的更加不公平，本來就已經占了國家很大的利益，再繼續加上去，這是一種雙重的剝奪、雙重的不公平，所以我們認為將來院在討論這件事情的時候，一定要把這個指標納入參考，不要讓南部的人持續受到雙重的傷害，你為國家發展付出這麼多，你應該得到更多的一些支持去改善。"],["卓院長榮泰：現在要努力的就是依照現在修正過的版本當中這個計算的權重，得到利益比較多的這些縣市的委員要發揮全國的正義感，才能做到均衡的臺灣，不要只是自己的地方好，別人的地方沒有關係，如果這樣子，臺灣永遠在一個不公平的狀態底下。賴總統一直指示，我們要用均衡臺灣、健康臺灣跟團結臺灣來作為政策推動的一個方向，所以均衡臺灣很重要，希望委員能夠發揮全國的正義感。"],["賴委員瑞隆：每一個立委其實都是全國的立委，也都應該站在國家的高度來思考，不應該受到……但是如果像這樣的一個修法的方式，會導致這麼多不公平、不正義的狀況發生的時候，我認為立委們其實應該要站出來，就像我最前面所提到的，為什麼在2002年的時候會有12位立委缺席，會有1位投出廢票，就是因為他們發現不妥，這樣修法的方向對中南部極度不公平，對於整個財政劃分上面會產生更嚴重的強者越強、弱者越弱，強凌弱這樣的狀況、重北輕南的狀況，所以這麼多有勇氣的立委們站出來，我們期待待會晚一點的投票有更多有勇氣的立委站出來，如果沒有勇氣、沒有道德良知的話，人民也都看在眼裡。院長同意這樣的看法吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們共同來期待還有多12位國家立委……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們期待今天第二次的財劃法覆議案是成功的，好嗎？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會繼續的努力。"],["賴委員瑞隆：院長加油！謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員支持，謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝賴委員、謝謝卓院長。","報告全院委員會，各黨團推派的委員均已詢答完畢。行政院所提之財政收支劃分法修正第八條、第十六條之一及第三十條條文覆議案已審查完竣，謝謝行政院卓院長及相關部會首長列席說明。","報告全院委員會，行政院所提兩案覆議案均已審查完竣，現作以下決議：提報院會，以記名投票表決。","向全院委員會報告，依上星期五院會決定，全院委員會審查完畢後，同日改開院會進行兩案覆議案記名投票表決。我們就定於本日下午4點10分改開院會，進行覆議案之記名投票表決。","報告全院委員會，全院委員會進行到此為止，現在散會。","散會（15時51分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":344,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","傅崐萁","許宇甄","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","鍾佳濱","翁曉玲","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","林俊憲","王鴻薇","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","馬文君","陳亭妃","林思銘","賴瑞隆"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2025-03-12"],"gazette_id":"1142501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142501_00011","1142501_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第2次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"「財政收支劃分法」第八條、第十六條之一及第三十條條文覆議案","agenda_id":"1142501_00020"}}}