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00:01:30,823\n這個UberEats他決定終止併購富大便的台灣他要支付多少錢82億台幣所以你看你們的決策多麼重要那我們看這個公平會的職長是什麼掌理擬定公平交易政策及法規以及調查處理失業各種妨礙競爭的行為\n\n5\n00:01:32,705 --> 00:01:49,937\n包括獨佔結合聯合等限制競爭行為及不公平的競爭行為還要嚴厲多層次傳銷的政策完備相關的法規並辦理有關違法的事件當然你們有沒有真的在辦違法的事件這個本事也\n\n6\n00:01:52,104 --> 00:02:05,027\n這個多次的質詢了那這不是今天的重點重點是公平會組織架構上來我們看右邊這是你們組織架構有法律事務處公平競爭處製造業競爭處服務業競爭處綜合規劃處您的多層次傳銷的產業發展規劃輔導的主責部門在哪裡\n\n7\n00:02:16,610 --> 00:02:20,437\n在公平競爭處公平競爭處那公平競爭處的業務在講什麼\n\n8\n00:02:24,121 --> 00:02:50,682\n主要是在不公平競爭嘛對不公平競爭那你又是這個多層次傳銷的主管機關啊那既然是產業的主管機關你就要去做什麼事呢來我們看目的主管機關的責任是什麼來如同企業的掌舵者你要經負引領目的事業朝向目標航行的重責大任好在這個我就爬梳了一下法律字典我把它摘錄下來\n\n9\n00:02:51,903 --> 00:02:55,105\n很明顯他這個主責機關不是一個純粹的行政單位他必須具備策略思維專業知識還有有效的整合資源的關鍵角色然後他的核心的定義是什麼推動國家政策\n\n10\n00:03:09,032 --> 00:03:36,852\n產業升級社會進步的關鍵作用您這個官署主管機關對於這個產業是有社會進步中的關鍵作用好再看他的核心定義也就是說他不是負責監督跟管理而已他還要包括什麼策略規劃資源調配政策執行等面向他必須能夠精準掌握產業趨勢並根據國家政策\n\n11\n00:03:37,452 --> 00:03:46,259\n制定符合時代需求的發展策略好那您覺得您的這個公平競爭處作為多層次傳銷的主管機關的這個這個\n\n12\n00:03:54,846 --> 00:04:14,158\n輔導單位嗎我可以說是輔導單位嗎好輔導單位的話您覺得在這個公平競爭處當中有做到下面這一頁嗎我所有標了紅框的這都是經濟部在做的我想委員講的這個主責機關的責任我想基本上我贊同啦就是說他的他是有積極的有規劃的作用但是\n\n13\n00:04:14,918 --> 00:04:38,457\n因為多城市船廈事業本來一直都是公平會在管所以沒錯我們是一個公平競爭處在管但是我們也搭配船保會了有很多比較規劃的事情是船保會太好了您就講到船保會公平會你竟然講從你的口中講出我這個主管機關我要輔導他的業務我主管機關不做而我給一個民間的他是民間法人喔\n\n14\n00:04:39,137 --> 00:04:55,420\n這個基金會根本就是個怪物因為他基本上都是民間出權百分百的民間法人但是你們卻竟然要有自己的官署代表這也不是我今天的重點而是你們就其輔導業務來講從你口中是對的喔你把你的主管機關說我不做我給一個民間的法人去做他的產業輔導跟發展\n\n15\n00:05:05,543 --> 00:05:19,633\n這個財團法人多層次傳銷保護基金會好這個民間法人本來就不應該辦理關署好您說交給他那我也很認真的今天早上我還給他google一下了這個基金會的組織章程你認為他的組織章程當中\n\n16\n00:05:23,476 --> 00:05:34,167\n有所謂的策略思維專業知識整合資源還要有這個配合國家的政策制定符合時代需求的發展策略嗎來您說看看\n\n17\n00:05:36,733 --> 00:06:02,571\n我想每個機關在他輔導的事業的未來規劃的現象會隨著部會的性質不同不同那傳銷事業本身是一個零售事業啦他比較不像說有些也許高科技業他有必須要很宏觀前瞻的所以我覺得在目前的制度下當然我們是主管機關主委您講到這個我就又可以點出了所以說您說經濟部的商業是就可以廢掉了他不需要我沒有這樣講沒有沒有你聽我講完\n\n18\n00:06:03,271 --> 00:06:11,561\n因為這個業務就是服務業所以您看您的商業思維是什麼認為服務業不需要國家前瞻的規劃您認為服務業當中也有包含什麼\n\n19\n00:06:18,711 --> 00:06:25,521\n需要需要但是就是程度可能會有不一樣所以你們沒有辦法辦到嗎所以你認為你們還認為這個多層次傳銷放在你們這邊比較有發展性還是放在經濟部內比較有發展性\n\n20\n00:06:34,053 --> 00:06:39,858\n我覺得就整個歸管的經驗還有跟歸管的這個處理的實務來講我們基本上是可以達到所以你這你認不認同你這個是裁員跟裁呃球員兼裁判你竟然在公平交易公平呃你說你們多呃你是一個公平競爭喔你對你要糾舉各行各業你知道你的權利多棒你的權利是各行各業喔\n\n21\n00:07:00,294 --> 00:07:28,456\n財政部下銀行整個的銀行要併購主管機關叫這個金管會他要問你那如果只要任何我任何的只要要整併我都要問你我光是一個醫院跟醫院之間大醫院跟大醫院之間要整併我也要問你這是衛福部的事情各行各業都要問你你這才是叫公平競爭的督導\n\n22\n00:07:29,497 --> 00:07:33,618\n那你說你又督導這個行業的公平競爭你又輔導他能夠產業發展這當然是抵觸這是我從來沒聽過在全世界的一個監理全世界都有一個公平競爭的獨立單位但是我從來沒有聽過這是台灣首創有針對業務的輔導這個行業的督導\n\n23\n00:07:57,285 --> 00:08:05,193\n好那包括你的這個產業國家發展產業升級社會進步產業趨勢的掌握資源調配政策執行你知道一個經濟部的一個商業師啊請你要不要爬梳一下那個商業師的組織章程一個服務業你看他一個商業是向各組所對應的好\n\n24\n00:08:19,547 --> 00:08:31,834\n來我們來我舉個例子吧好我就以經濟部能源署來為例好了我這個台電夠大了吧國營事業但是他絕對不是一個能源政策\n\n25\n00:08:33,069 --> 00:08:57,162\n的一個主管機關他的主管機關叫什麼叫做經濟部他叫經濟部能源署你看看能源署所配置下面的下面的是什麼來有這個再生能源設施有再生能源有節能有電力有油氣有能源政策及氣候變遷\n\n26\n00:08:58,803 --> 00:09:21,496\n所以不管是台電或者是相關的這些再生人員經過台電然後要做相關的服務我們民眾的業務這就是你有什麼業務你就配置什麼樣的關屬所以主管機關要有對應的業務分組所以如果我在這邊要求我的具體要求是什麼\n\n27\n00:09:22,296 --> 00:09:29,699\n那請公平會針對職場內容的主管目的主業主管機關的這個針對你們多層次傳銷的目的主管事業負責規劃並成立輔導及產業發展的組織組織及人員配置您可不可以做到呢去研議吧\n\n28\n00:09:42,152 --> 00:10:05,138\n這個因為影響層面很大對啊這個我們可能要再因為你們一直放手不做啊你就得今天我已經跟你們講過多少次從你們的李梅主委到你先生剛才你的話讓所有全台灣人民知道服務業不需要國家前瞻策略的主導這句話從你廣東我沒有這樣講啦要不要再倒帶一下我是講說服務業的輔導也有不同的層次啦\n\n29\n00:10:09,639 --> 00:10:32,472\n沒有你說在不同的部會當中有不同的業務你要不要再到主委你剛才是說我們的業務在這個業務主管就在不同的部會有不同的做法嘛那但是您就知道說因為這個就是你們要做一個經濟發展的一個功能是不可以在公平會的你認不認同\n\n30\n00:10:33,871 --> 00:10:38,054\n我覺得這要看過去的一個執法局你還要再開講好那沒關係來那請你在一個月內\n\n31\n00:10:42,964 --> 00:11:03,198\n很明確的把所有各部會每個各部會在輔導他的產業教育部也有教育產業喔他們有相關的輔導喔那你說衛福部也好包括國防部也有相關的他們針對在國防自主的部分我們的這個\n\n32\n00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:25,263\n那個相關的這個如何能夠再跟我們的工科的業務他要怎麼的輔導下去能夠讓技術留在我們台灣這都有那你的部分就要很明確了既然你一定要去管這個業務那你就要管得好\n\n33\n00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:49,371\n包括多層次傳銷裡面的商業模式我曾經都做過簡報你們都搞不清楚我還把全世界在不管日本韓國東南亞的商業模式還要我提供給你們那這就是產業發展所以你們在這邊我具體要求除了在法律事務處公平競爭處製造業競爭處\n\n34\n00:11:51,992 --> 00:12:19,812\n服務業競爭處綜合規劃處之外針對多層次傳銷的這個的主管機關您要有一個單獨的組織出來那這個組織呢你如果不會請參照中華民國行政院各部會在輔導他的產業的時候的這個相關的業務功能分組好一個月內可以嗎\n\n35\n00:12:21,013 --> 00:12:31,642\n委員如果你講的是說我們要研究有沒有可能去設這樣的處還是說我們一定要設這個處因為這個如果要增加一個管制多層層那個是一個組織的改變OK你一定要設一個你要一個處或組因為在你的職長當中欸主委啊看清楚你看你的組織當中是什麼會你看在第四頁當中叫做公平競爭處製造業競爭處\n\n36\n00:12:48,715 --> 00:13:04,483\n服務業競爭處綜合規劃處所以跟法律事務處你不要告訴我你要把它放在競爭處是不可能的最後是不是要找個時間去跟跟另外人說明一下\n\n37\n00:13:05,183 --> 00:13:13,265\n主委啊您是博士啊您是從事呢當然啊所以我就是要點出你根本主管機關根本沒有這個組織工人業務的分類那你要怎麼管你根本沒有辦法管你沒有手腳你沒有預算可管你告訴我下面的所有的一個月內好謝謝\n\n38\n00:13:35,205 --> 00:13:35,231\n啊\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n590\t3016\t好那我們下一位請林黛華委員諮詢有請主委來請主委\n18743\t41621\t這個你們公平會也有在作為主管機關那重點是當者主管機關的作為是民間企業存續的關鍵我就幾個事項外送平台合併案來破局第二個公平會的執掌跟目的事業主管機關的關係以及你身為目的主管機關的責任是什麼\n42321\t69503\t好在這個外送平台的這個決策當中在去年11月28號本席也提出質詢關切那我也絕對尊重你們的決議但是你要注意到你的決策是會對企業的衝擊跟影響是巨大的也因為你們以外送平台Uber Eats併購FoodahPay的招供品會以競爭餘率大駁回所以呢Uber\n70544\t90823\t這個Uber Eats他決定終止併購富大便的台灣他要支付多少錢82億台幣所以你看你們的決策多麼重要那我們看這個公平會的職長是什麼掌理擬定公平交易政策及法規以及調查處理失業各種妨礙競爭的行為\n92705\t109937\t包括獨佔結合聯合等限制競爭行為及不公平的競爭行為還要嚴厲多層次傳銷的政策完備相關的法規並辦理有關違法的事件當然你們有沒有真的在辦違法的事件這個本事也\n112104\t125027\t這個多次的質詢了那這不是今天的重點重點是公平會組織架構上來我們看右邊這是你們組織架構有法律事務處公平競爭處製造業競爭處服務業競爭處綜合規劃處您的多層次傳銷的產業發展規劃輔導的主責部門在哪裡\n136610\t140437\t在公平競爭處公平競爭處那公平競爭處的業務在講什麼\n144121\t170682\t主要是在不公平競爭嘛對不公平競爭那你又是這個多層次傳銷的主管機關啊那既然是產業的主管機關你就要去做什麼事呢來我們看目的主管機關的責任是什麼來如同企業的掌舵者你要經負引領目的事業朝向目標航行的重責大任好在這個我就爬梳了一下法律字典我把它摘錄下來\n171903\t175105\t很明顯他這個主責機關不是一個純粹的行政單位他必須具備策略思維專業知識還有有效的整合資源的關鍵角色然後他的核心的定義是什麼推動國家政策\n189032\t216852\t產業升級社會進步的關鍵作用您這個官署主管機關對於這個產業是有社會進步中的關鍵作用好再看他的核心定義也就是說他不是負責監督跟管理而已他還要包括什麼策略規劃資源調配政策執行等面向他必須能夠精準掌握產業趨勢並根據國家政策\n217452\t226259\t制定符合時代需求的發展策略好那您覺得您的這個公平競爭處作為多層次傳銷的主管機關的這個這個\n234846\t254158\t輔導單位嗎我可以說是輔導單位嗎好輔導單位的話您覺得在這個公平競爭處當中有做到下面這一頁嗎我所有標了紅框的這都是經濟部在做的我想委員講的這個主責機關的責任我想基本上我贊同啦就是說他的他是有積極的有規劃的作用但是\n254918\t278457\t因為多城市船廈事業本來一直都是公平會在管所以沒錯我們是一個公平競爭處在管但是我們也搭配船保會了有很多比較規劃的事情是船保會太好了您就講到船保會公平會你竟然講從你的口中講出我這個主管機關我要輔導他的業務我主管機關不做而我給一個民間的他是民間法人喔\n279137\t295420\t這個基金會根本就是個怪物因為他基本上都是民間出權百分百的民間法人但是你們卻竟然要有自己的官署代表這也不是我今天的重點而是你們就其輔導業務來講從你口中是對的喔你把你的主管機關說我不做我給一個民間的法人去做他的產業輔導跟發展\n305543\t319633\t這個財團法人多層次傳銷保護基金會好這個民間法人本來就不應該辦理關署好您說交給他那我也很認真的今天早上我還給他google一下了這個基金會的組織章程你認為他的組織章程當中\n323476\t334167\t有所謂的策略思維專業知識整合資源還要有這個配合國家的政策制定符合時代需求的發展策略嗎來 您說看看\n336733\t362571\t我想每個機關在他輔導的事業的未來規劃的現象會隨著部會的性質不同不同那傳銷事業本身是一個零售事業啦他比較不像說有些也許高科技業他有必須要很宏觀前瞻的所以我覺得在目前的制度下當然我們是主管機關主委您講到這個我就又可以點出了所以說您說經濟部的商業是就可以廢掉了他不需要我沒有這樣講沒有沒有你聽我講完\n363271\t371561\t因為這個業務就是服務業所以您看您的商業思維是什麼認為服務業不需要國家前瞻的規劃您認為服務業當中也有包含什麼\n378711\t385521\t需要需要但是就是程度可能會有不一樣所以你們沒有辦法辦到嗎所以你認為你們還認為這個多層次傳銷放在你們這邊比較有發展性還是放在經濟部內比較有發展性\n394053\t399858\t我覺得就整個歸管的經驗還有跟歸管的這個處理的實務來講我們基本上是可以達到所以你這你認不認同你這個是裁員跟裁呃球員兼裁判你竟然在公平交易公平呃你說你們多呃你是一個公平競爭喔你對你要糾舉各行各業你知道你的權利多棒你的權利是各行各業喔\n420294\t448456\t財政部下銀行 整個的銀行要併購主管機關叫這個金管會 他要問你那如果只要任何 我任何的只要要整併我都要問你 我光是一個醫院跟醫院之間大醫院跟大醫院之間要整併 我也要問你 這是衛福部的事情各行各業都要問你 你這才是叫公平競爭的督導\n449497\t453618\t那你說你又督導這個行業的公平競爭你又輔導他能夠產業發展這當然是抵觸這是我從來沒聽過在全世界的一個監理全世界都有一個公平競爭的獨立單位但是我從來沒有聽過這是台灣首創有針對業務的輔導這個行業的督導\n477285\t485193\t好那包括你的這個產業國家發展產業升級社會進步產業趨勢的掌握資源調配政策執行你知道一個經濟部的一個商業師啊請你要不要爬梳一下那個商業師的組織章程一個服務業你看他一個商業是向各組所對應的好\n499547\t511834\t來我們來我舉個例子吧好我就以經濟部能源署來為例好了我這個台電夠大了吧國營事業但是他絕對不是一個能源政策\n513069\t537162\t的一個主管機關 他的主管機關叫什麼叫做經濟部他叫經濟部能源署 你看看能源署所配置下面的下面的是什麼 來有這個再生能源設施有再生能源有節能有電力有油氣有能源政策及氣候變遷\n538803\t561496\t所以不管是台電或者是相關的這些再生人員經過台電然後要做相關的服務我們民眾的業務這就是你有什麼業務你就配置什麼樣的關屬所以主管機關要有對應的業務分組所以如果我在這邊要求我的具體要求是什麼\n562296\t569699\t那請公平會針對職場內容的主管目的主業主管機關的這個針對你們多層次傳銷的目的主管事業負責規劃並成立輔導及產業發展的組織組織及人員配置您可不可以做到呢 去研議吧\n582152\t605138\t這個因為影響層面很大對啊這個我們可能要再因為你們一直放手不做啊你就得今天我已經跟你們講過多少次從你們的李梅主委到你先生剛才你的話讓所有全台灣人民知道服務業不需要國家前瞻策略的主導這句話從你廣東我沒有這樣講啦要不要再倒帶一下我是講說服務業的輔導也有不同的層次啦\n609639\t632472\t沒有 你說在不同的部會當中有不同的業務你要不要再到 主委你剛才是說我們的業務在這個業務主管就在不同的部會有不同的做法嘛那但是您就知道說因為這個就是你們要做一個經濟發展的一個功能是不可以在公平會的 你認不認同\n633871\t638054\t我覺得這要看過去的一個執法局你還要再開講好那沒關係來那請你在一個月內\n642964\t663198\t很明確的把所有各部會每個各部會在輔導他的產業教育部也有教育產業喔他們有相關的輔導喔那你說衛福部也好包括國防部也有相關的他們針對在國防自主的部分我們的這個\n667040\t685263\t那個相關的這個如何能夠再跟我們的工科的業務他要怎麼的輔導下去能夠讓技術留在我們台灣這都有那你的部分就要很明確了既然你一定要去管這個業務那你就要管得好\n687679\t709371\t包括多層次傳銷裡面的商業模式我曾經都做過簡報你們都搞不清楚我還把全世界在不管日本韓國東南亞的商業模式還要我提供給你們那這就是產業發展所以你們在這邊我具體要求除了在法律事務處公平競爭處製造業競爭處\n711992\t739812\t服務業競爭處綜合規劃處之外針對多層次傳銷的這個的主管機關您要有一個單獨的組織出來那這個組織呢你如果不會請參照中華民國行政院各部會在輔導他的產業的時候的這個相關的業務功能分組好一個月內可以嗎\n741013\t751642\t委員 如果你講的是說我們要研究有沒有可能去設這樣的處還是說我們一定要設這個處因為這個如果要增加一個管制多層層那個是一個組織的改變OK 你一定要設一個 你要一個處或組因為在你的職長當中 欸 主委啊看清楚 你看你的組織當中是什麼會你看在第四頁當中 叫做公平競爭處製造業競爭處\n768715\t784483\t服務業競爭處綜合規劃處所以跟法律事務處你不要告訴我你要把它放在競爭處是不可能的最後是不是要找個時間去跟跟另外人說明一下\n785183\t793265\t主委啊 您是博士啊 您是從事呢當然啊 所以我就是要點出你根本主管機關根本沒有這個組織工人業務的分類 那你要怎麼管你根本沒有辦法管 你沒有手腳 你沒有預算可管你告訴我下面的所有的一個月內 好 謝謝\n815205\t815231\t啊\n","txt":"好那我們下一位請林黛華委員諮詢有請主委來請主委\n這個你們公平會也有在作為主管機關那重點是當者主管機關的作為是民間企業存續的關鍵我就幾個事項外送平台合併案來破局第二個公平會的執掌跟目的事業主管機關的關係以及你身為目的主管機關的責任是什麼\n好在這個外送平台的這個決策當中在去年11月28號本席也提出質詢關切那我也絕對尊重你們的決議但是你要注意到你的決策是會對企業的衝擊跟影響是巨大的也因為你們以外送平台Uber Eats併購FoodahPay的招供品會以競爭餘率大駁回所以呢Uber\n這個Uber Eats他決定終止併購富大便的台灣他要支付多少錢82億台幣所以你看你們的決策多麼重要那我們看這個公平會的職長是什麼掌理擬定公平交易政策及法規以及調查處理失業各種妨礙競爭的行為\n包括獨佔結合聯合等限制競爭行為及不公平的競爭行為還要嚴厲多層次傳銷的政策完備相關的法規並辦理有關違法的事件當然你們有沒有真的在辦違法的事件這個本事也\n這個多次的質詢了那這不是今天的重點重點是公平會組織架構上來我們看右邊這是你們組織架構有法律事務處公平競爭處製造業競爭處服務業競爭處綜合規劃處您的多層次傳銷的產業發展規劃輔導的主責部門在哪裡\n在公平競爭處公平競爭處那公平競爭處的業務在講什麼\n主要是在不公平競爭嘛對不公平競爭那你又是這個多層次傳銷的主管機關啊那既然是產業的主管機關你就要去做什麼事呢來我們看目的主管機關的責任是什麼來如同企業的掌舵者你要經負引領目的事業朝向目標航行的重責大任好在這個我就爬梳了一下法律字典我把它摘錄下來\n很明顯他這個主責機關不是一個純粹的行政單位他必須具備策略思維專業知識還有有效的整合資源的關鍵角色然後他的核心的定義是什麼推動國家政策\n產業升級社會進步的關鍵作用您這個官署主管機關對於這個產業是有社會進步中的關鍵作用好再看他的核心定義也就是說他不是負責監督跟管理而已他還要包括什麼策略規劃資源調配政策執行等面向他必須能夠精準掌握產業趨勢並根據國家政策\n制定符合時代需求的發展策略好那您覺得您的這個公平競爭處作為多層次傳銷的主管機關的這個這個\n輔導單位嗎我可以說是輔導單位嗎好輔導單位的話您覺得在這個公平競爭處當中有做到下面這一頁嗎我所有標了紅框的這都是經濟部在做的我想委員講的這個主責機關的責任我想基本上我贊同啦就是說他的他是有積極的有規劃的作用但是\n因為多城市船廈事業本來一直都是公平會在管所以沒錯我們是一個公平競爭處在管但是我們也搭配船保會了有很多比較規劃的事情是船保會太好了您就講到船保會公平會你竟然講從你的口中講出我這個主管機關我要輔導他的業務我主管機關不做而我給一個民間的他是民間法人喔\n這個基金會根本就是個怪物因為他基本上都是民間出權百分百的民間法人但是你們卻竟然要有自己的官署代表這也不是我今天的重點而是你們就其輔導業務來講從你口中是對的喔你把你的主管機關說我不做我給一個民間的法人去做他的產業輔導跟發展\n這個財團法人多層次傳銷保護基金會好這個民間法人本來就不應該辦理關署好您說交給他那我也很認真的今天早上我還給他google一下了這個基金會的組織章程你認為他的組織章程當中\n有所謂的策略思維專業知識整合資源還要有這個配合國家的政策制定符合時代需求的發展策略嗎來 您說看看\n我想每個機關在他輔導的事業的未來規劃的現象會隨著部會的性質不同不同那傳銷事業本身是一個零售事業啦他比較不像說有些也許高科技業他有必須要很宏觀前瞻的所以我覺得在目前的制度下當然我們是主管機關主委您講到這個我就又可以點出了所以說您說經濟部的商業是就可以廢掉了他不需要我沒有這樣講沒有沒有你聽我講完\n因為這個業務就是服務業所以您看您的商業思維是什麼認為服務業不需要國家前瞻的規劃您認為服務業當中也有包含什麼\n需要需要但是就是程度可能會有不一樣所以你們沒有辦法辦到嗎所以你認為你們還認為這個多層次傳銷放在你們這邊比較有發展性還是放在經濟部內比較有發展性\n我覺得就整個歸管的經驗還有跟歸管的這個處理的實務來講我們基本上是可以達到所以你這你認不認同你這個是裁員跟裁呃球員兼裁判你竟然在公平交易公平呃你說你們多呃你是一個公平競爭喔你對你要糾舉各行各業你知道你的權利多棒你的權利是各行各業喔\n財政部下銀行 整個的銀行要併購主管機關叫這個金管會 他要問你那如果只要任何 我任何的只要要整併我都要問你 我光是一個醫院跟醫院之間大醫院跟大醫院之間要整併 我也要問你 這是衛福部的事情各行各業都要問你 你這才是叫公平競爭的督導\n那你說你又督導這個行業的公平競爭你又輔導他能夠產業發展這當然是抵觸這是我從來沒聽過在全世界的一個監理全世界都有一個公平競爭的獨立單位但是我從來沒有聽過這是台灣首創有針對業務的輔導這個行業的督導\n好那包括你的這個產業國家發展產業升級社會進步產業趨勢的掌握資源調配政策執行你知道一個經濟部的一個商業師啊請你要不要爬梳一下那個商業師的組織章程一個服務業你看他一個商業是向各組所對應的好\n來我們來我舉個例子吧好我就以經濟部能源署來為例好了我這個台電夠大了吧國營事業但是他絕對不是一個能源政策\n的一個主管機關 他的主管機關叫什麼叫做經濟部他叫經濟部能源署 你看看能源署所配置下面的下面的是什麼 來有這個再生能源設施有再生能源有節能有電力有油氣有能源政策及氣候變遷\n所以不管是台電或者是相關的這些再生人員經過台電然後要做相關的服務我們民眾的業務這就是你有什麼業務你就配置什麼樣的關屬所以主管機關要有對應的業務分組所以如果我在這邊要求我的具體要求是什麼\n那請公平會針對職場內容的主管目的主業主管機關的這個針對你們多層次傳銷的目的主管事業負責規劃並成立輔導及產業發展的組織組織及人員配置您可不可以做到呢 去研議吧\n這個因為影響層面很大對啊這個我們可能要再因為你們一直放手不做啊你就得今天我已經跟你們講過多少次從你們的李梅主委到你先生剛才你的話讓所有全台灣人民知道服務業不需要國家前瞻策略的主導這句話從你廣東我沒有這樣講啦要不要再倒帶一下我是講說服務業的輔導也有不同的層次啦\n沒有 你說在不同的部會當中有不同的業務你要不要再到 主委你剛才是說我們的業務在這個業務主管就在不同的部會有不同的做法嘛那但是您就知道說因為這個就是你們要做一個經濟發展的一個功能是不可以在公平會的 你認不認同\n我覺得這要看過去的一個執法局你還要再開講好那沒關係來那請你在一個月內\n很明確的把所有各部會每個各部會在輔導他的產業教育部也有教育產業喔他們有相關的輔導喔那你說衛福部也好包括國防部也有相關的他們針對在國防自主的部分我們的這個\n那個相關的這個如何能夠再跟我們的工科的業務他要怎麼的輔導下去能夠讓技術留在我們台灣這都有那你的部分就要很明確了既然你一定要去管這個業務那你就要管得好\n包括多層次傳銷裡面的商業模式我曾經都做過簡報你們都搞不清楚我還把全世界在不管日本韓國東南亞的商業模式還要我提供給你們那這就是產業發展所以你們在這邊我具體要求除了在法律事務處公平競爭處製造業競爭處\n服務業競爭處綜合規劃處之外針對多層次傳銷的這個的主管機關您要有一個單獨的組織出來那這個組織呢你如果不會請參照中華民國行政院各部會在輔導他的產業的時候的這個相關的業務功能分組好一個月內可以嗎\n委員 如果你講的是說我們要研究有沒有可能去設這樣的處還是說我們一定要設這個處因為這個如果要增加一個管制多層層那個是一個組織的改變OK 你一定要設一個 你要一個處或組因為在你的職長當中 欸 主委啊看清楚 你看你的組織當中是什麼會你看在第四頁當中 叫做公平競爭處製造業競爭處\n服務業競爭處綜合規劃處所以跟法律事務處你不要告訴我你要把它放在競爭處是不可能的最後是不是要找個時間去跟跟另外人說明一下\n主委啊 您是博士啊 您是從事呢當然啊 所以我就是要點出你根本主管機關根本沒有這個組織工人業務的分類 那你要怎麼管你根本沒有辦法管 你沒有手腳 你沒有預算可管你告訴我下面的所有的一個月內 好 謝謝\n啊\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.590 --> 00:03.016\n好那我們下一位請林黛華委員諮詢有請主委來請主委\n\n00:18.743 --> 00:41.621\n這個你們公平會也有在作為主管機關那重點是當者主管機關的作為是民間企業存續的關鍵我就幾個事項外送平台合併案來破局第二個公平會的執掌跟目的事業主管機關的關係以及你身為目的主管機關的責任是什麼\n\n00:42.321 --> 01:09.503\n好在這個外送平台的這個決策當中在去年11月28號本席也提出質詢關切那我也絕對尊重你們的決議但是你要注意到你的決策是會對企業的衝擊跟影響是巨大的也因為你們以外送平台UberEats併購FoodahPay的招供品會以競爭餘率大駁回所以呢Uber\n\n01:10.544 --> 01:30.823\n這個UberEats他決定終止併購富大便的台灣他要支付多少錢82億台幣所以你看你們的決策多麼重要那我們看這個公平會的職長是什麼掌理擬定公平交易政策及法規以及調查處理失業各種妨礙競爭的行為\n\n01:32.705 --> 01:49.937\n包括獨佔結合聯合等限制競爭行為及不公平的競爭行為還要嚴厲多層次傳銷的政策完備相關的法規並辦理有關違法的事件當然你們有沒有真的在辦違法的事件這個本事也\n\n01:52.104 --> 02:05.027\n這個多次的質詢了那這不是今天的重點重點是公平會組織架構上來我們看右邊這是你們組織架構有法律事務處公平競爭處製造業競爭處服務業競爭處綜合規劃處您的多層次傳銷的產業發展規劃輔導的主責部門在哪裡\n\n02:16.610 --> 02:20.437\n在公平競爭處公平競爭處那公平競爭處的業務在講什麼\n\n02:24.121 --> 02:50.682\n主要是在不公平競爭嘛對不公平競爭那你又是這個多層次傳銷的主管機關啊那既然是產業的主管機關你就要去做什麼事呢來我們看目的主管機關的責任是什麼來如同企業的掌舵者你要經負引領目的事業朝向目標航行的重責大任好在這個我就爬梳了一下法律字典我把它摘錄下來\n\n02:51.903 --> 02:55.105\n很明顯他這個主責機關不是一個純粹的行政單位他必須具備策略思維專業知識還有有效的整合資源的關鍵角色然後他的核心的定義是什麼推動國家政策\n\n03:09.032 --> 03:36.852\n產業升級社會進步的關鍵作用您這個官署主管機關對於這個產業是有社會進步中的關鍵作用好再看他的核心定義也就是說他不是負責監督跟管理而已他還要包括什麼策略規劃資源調配政策執行等面向他必須能夠精準掌握產業趨勢並根據國家政策\n\n03:37.452 --> 03:46.259\n制定符合時代需求的發展策略好那您覺得您的這個公平競爭處作為多層次傳銷的主管機關的這個這個\n\n03:54.846 --> 04:14.158\n輔導單位嗎我可以說是輔導單位嗎好輔導單位的話您覺得在這個公平競爭處當中有做到下面這一頁嗎我所有標了紅框的這都是經濟部在做的我想委員講的這個主責機關的責任我想基本上我贊同啦就是說他的他是有積極的有規劃的作用但是\n\n04:14.918 --> 04:38.457\n因為多城市船廈事業本來一直都是公平會在管所以沒錯我們是一個公平競爭處在管但是我們也搭配船保會了有很多比較規劃的事情是船保會太好了您就講到船保會公平會你竟然講從你的口中講出我這個主管機關我要輔導他的業務我主管機關不做而我給一個民間的他是民間法人喔\n\n04:39.137 --> 04:55.420\n這個基金會根本就是個怪物因為他基本上都是民間出權百分百的民間法人但是你們卻竟然要有自己的官署代表這也不是我今天的重點而是你們就其輔導業務來講從你口中是對的喔你把你的主管機關說我不做我給一個民間的法人去做他的產業輔導跟發展\n\n05:05.543 --> 05:19.633\n這個財團法人多層次傳銷保護基金會好這個民間法人本來就不應該辦理關署好您說交給他那我也很認真的今天早上我還給他google一下了這個基金會的組織章程你認為他的組織章程當中\n\n05:23.476 --> 05:34.167\n有所謂的策略思維專業知識整合資源還要有這個配合國家的政策制定符合時代需求的發展策略嗎來您說看看\n\n05:36.733 --> 06:02.571\n我想每個機關在他輔導的事業的未來規劃的現象會隨著部會的性質不同不同那傳銷事業本身是一個零售事業啦他比較不像說有些也許高科技業他有必須要很宏觀前瞻的所以我覺得在目前的制度下當然我們是主管機關主委您講到這個我就又可以點出了所以說您說經濟部的商業是就可以廢掉了他不需要我沒有這樣講沒有沒有你聽我講完\n\n06:03.271 --> 06:11.561\n因為這個業務就是服務業所以您看您的商業思維是什麼認為服務業不需要國家前瞻的規劃您認為服務業當中也有包含什麼\n\n06:18.711 --> 06:25.521\n需要需要但是就是程度可能會有不一樣所以你們沒有辦法辦到嗎所以你認為你們還認為這個多層次傳銷放在你們這邊比較有發展性還是放在經濟部內比較有發展性\n\n06:34.053 --> 06:39.858\n我覺得就整個歸管的經驗還有跟歸管的這個處理的實務來講我們基本上是可以達到所以你這你認不認同你這個是裁員跟裁呃球員兼裁判你竟然在公平交易公平呃你說你們多呃你是一個公平競爭喔你對你要糾舉各行各業你知道你的權利多棒你的權利是各行各業喔\n\n07:00.294 --> 07:28.456\n財政部下銀行整個的銀行要併購主管機關叫這個金管會他要問你那如果只要任何我任何的只要要整併我都要問你我光是一個醫院跟醫院之間大醫院跟大醫院之間要整併我也要問你這是衛福部的事情各行各業都要問你你這才是叫公平競爭的督導\n\n07:29.497 --> 07:33.618\n那你說你又督導這個行業的公平競爭你又輔導他能夠產業發展這當然是抵觸這是我從來沒聽過在全世界的一個監理全世界都有一個公平競爭的獨立單位但是我從來沒有聽過這是台灣首創有針對業務的輔導這個行業的督導\n\n07:57.285 --> 08:05.193\n好那包括你的這個產業國家發展產業升級社會進步產業趨勢的掌握資源調配政策執行你知道一個經濟部的一個商業師啊請你要不要爬梳一下那個商業師的組織章程一個服務業你看他一個商業是向各組所對應的好\n\n08:19.547 --> 08:31.834\n來我們來我舉個例子吧好我就以經濟部能源署來為例好了我這個台電夠大了吧國營事業但是他絕對不是一個能源政策\n\n08:33.069 --> 08:57.162\n的一個主管機關他的主管機關叫什麼叫做經濟部他叫經濟部能源署你看看能源署所配置下面的下面的是什麼來有這個再生能源設施有再生能源有節能有電力有油氣有能源政策及氣候變遷\n\n08:58.803 --> 09:21.496\n所以不管是台電或者是相關的這些再生人員經過台電然後要做相關的服務我們民眾的業務這就是你有什麼業務你就配置什麼樣的關屬所以主管機關要有對應的業務分組所以如果我在這邊要求我的具體要求是什麼\n\n09:22.296 --> 09:29.699\n那請公平會針對職場內容的主管目的主業主管機關的這個針對你們多層次傳銷的目的主管事業負責規劃並成立輔導及產業發展的組織組織及人員配置您可不可以做到呢去研議吧\n\n09:42.152 --> 10:05.138\n這個因為影響層面很大對啊這個我們可能要再因為你們一直放手不做啊你就得今天我已經跟你們講過多少次從你們的李梅主委到你先生剛才你的話讓所有全台灣人民知道服務業不需要國家前瞻策略的主導這句話從你廣東我沒有這樣講啦要不要再倒帶一下我是講說服務業的輔導也有不同的層次啦\n\n10:09.639 --> 10:32.472\n沒有你說在不同的部會當中有不同的業務你要不要再到主委你剛才是說我們的業務在這個業務主管就在不同的部會有不同的做法嘛那但是您就知道說因為這個就是你們要做一個經濟發展的一個功能是不可以在公平會的你認不認同\n\n10:33.871 --> 10:38.054\n我覺得這要看過去的一個執法局你還要再開講好那沒關係來那請你在一個月內\n\n10:42.964 --> 11:03.198\n很明確的把所有各部會每個各部會在輔導他的產業教育部也有教育產業喔他們有相關的輔導喔那你說衛福部也好包括國防部也有相關的他們針對在國防自主的部分我們的這個\n\n11:07.040 --> 11:25.263\n那個相關的這個如何能夠再跟我們的工科的業務他要怎麼的輔導下去能夠讓技術留在我們台灣這都有那你的部分就要很明確了既然你一定要去管這個業務那你就要管得好\n\n11:27.679 --> 11:49.371\n包括多層次傳銷裡面的商業模式我曾經都做過簡報你們都搞不清楚我還把全世界在不管日本韓國東南亞的商業模式還要我提供給你們那這就是產業發展所以你們在這邊我具體要求除了在法律事務處公平競爭處製造業競爭處\n\n11:51.992 --> 12:19.812\n服務業競爭處綜合規劃處之外針對多層次傳銷的這個的主管機關您要有一個單獨的組織出來那這個組織呢你如果不會請參照中華民國行政院各部會在輔導他的產業的時候的這個相關的業務功能分組好一個月內可以嗎\n\n12:21.013 --> 12:31.642\n委員如果你講的是說我們要研究有沒有可能去設這樣的處還是說我們一定要設這個處因為這個如果要增加一個管制多層層那個是一個組織的改變OK你一定要設一個你要一個處或組因為在你的職長當中欸主委啊看清楚你看你的組織當中是什麼會你看在第四頁當中叫做公平競爭處製造業競爭處\n\n12:48.715 --> 13:04.483\n服務業競爭處綜合規劃處所以跟法律事務處你不要告訴我你要把它放在競爭處是不可能的最後是不是要找個時間去跟跟另外人說明一下\n\n13:05.183 --> 13:13.265\n主委啊您是博士啊您是從事呢當然啊所以我就是要點出你根本主管機關根本沒有這個組織工人業務的分類那你要怎麼管你根本沒有辦法管你沒有手腳你沒有預算可管你告訴我下面的所有的一個月內好謝謝\n\n13:35.205 --> 13:35.231\n啊\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.59,"end":3.016,"text":"好那我們下一位請林黛華委員諮詢有請主委來請主委"},{"start":18.743,"end":41.621,"text":"這個你們公平會也有在作為主管機關那重點是當者主管機關的作為是民間企業存續的關鍵我就幾個事項外送平台合併案來破局第二個公平會的執掌跟目的事業主管機關的關係以及你身為目的主管機關的責任是什麼"},{"start":42.321,"end":69.503,"text":"好在這個外送平台的這個決策當中在去年11月28號本席也提出質詢關切那我也絕對尊重你們的決議但是你要注意到你的決策是會對企業的衝擊跟影響是巨大的也因為你們以外送平台Uber 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你這才是叫公平競爭的督導"},{"start":449.497,"end":453.618,"text":"那你說你又督導這個行業的公平競爭你又輔導他能夠產業發展這當然是抵觸這是我從來沒聽過在全世界的一個監理全世界都有一個公平競爭的獨立單位但是我從來沒有聽過這是台灣首創有針對業務的輔導這個行業的督導"},{"start":477.285,"end":485.193,"text":"好那包括你的這個產業國家發展產業升級社會進步產業趨勢的掌握資源調配政策執行你知道一個經濟部的一個商業師啊請你要不要爬梳一下那個商業師的組織章程一個服務業你看他一個商業是向各組所對應的好"},{"start":499.547,"end":511.834,"text":"來我們來我舉個例子吧好我就以經濟部能源署來為例好了我這個台電夠大了吧國營事業但是他絕對不是一個能源政策"},{"start":513.069,"end":537.162,"text":"的一個主管機關 他的主管機關叫什麼叫做經濟部他叫經濟部能源署 你看看能源署所配置下面的下面的是什麼 來有這個再生能源設施有再生能源有節能有電力有油氣有能源政策及氣候變遷"},{"start":538.803,"end":561.496,"text":"所以不管是台電或者是相關的這些再生人員經過台電然後要做相關的服務我們民眾的業務這就是你有什麼業務你就配置什麼樣的關屬所以主管機關要有對應的業務分組所以如果我在這邊要求我的具體要求是什麼"},{"start":562.296,"end":569.699,"text":"那請公平會針對職場內容的主管目的主業主管機關的這個針對你們多層次傳銷的目的主管事業負責規劃並成立輔導及產業發展的組織組織及人員配置您可不可以做到呢 去研議吧"},{"start":582.152,"end":605.138,"text":"這個因為影響層面很大對啊這個我們可能要再因為你們一直放手不做啊你就得今天我已經跟你們講過多少次從你們的李梅主委到你先生剛才你的話讓所有全台灣人民知道服務業不需要國家前瞻策略的主導這句話從你廣東我沒有這樣講啦要不要再倒帶一下我是講說服務業的輔導也有不同的層次啦"},{"start":609.639,"end":632.472,"text":"沒有 你說在不同的部會當中有不同的業務你要不要再到 主委你剛才是說我們的業務在這個業務主管就在不同的部會有不同的做法嘛那但是您就知道說因為這個就是你們要做一個經濟發展的一個功能是不可以在公平會的 你認不認同"},{"start":633.871,"end":638.054,"text":"我覺得這要看過去的一個執法局你還要再開講好那沒關係來那請你在一個月內"},{"start":642.964,"end":663.198,"text":"很明確的把所有各部會每個各部會在輔導他的產業教育部也有教育產業喔他們有相關的輔導喔那你說衛福部也好包括國防部也有相關的他們針對在國防自主的部分我們的這個"},{"start":667.04,"end":685.263,"text":"那個相關的這個如何能夠再跟我們的工科的業務他要怎麼的輔導下去能夠讓技術留在我們台灣這都有那你的部分就要很明確了既然你一定要去管這個業務那你就要管得好"},{"start":687.679,"end":709.371,"text":"包括多層次傳銷裡面的商業模式我曾經都做過簡報你們都搞不清楚我還把全世界在不管日本韓國東南亞的商業模式還要我提供給你們那這就是產業發展所以你們在這邊我具體要求除了在法律事務處公平競爭處製造業競爭處"},{"start":711.992,"end":739.812,"text":"服務業競爭處綜合規劃處之外針對多層次傳銷的這個的主管機關您要有一個單獨的組織出來那這個組織呢你如果不會請參照中華民國行政院各部會在輔導他的產業的時候的這個相關的業務功能分組好一個月內可以嗎"},{"start":741.013,"end":751.642,"text":"委員 如果你講的是說我們要研究有沒有可能去設這樣的處還是說我們一定要設這個處因為這個如果要增加一個管制多層層那個是一個組織的改變OK 你一定要設一個 你要一個處或組因為在你的職長當中 欸 主委啊看清楚 你看你的組織當中是什麼會你看在第四頁當中 叫做公平競爭處製造業競爭處"},{"start":768.715,"end":784.483,"text":"服務業競爭處綜合規劃處所以跟法律事務處你不要告訴我你要把它放在競爭處是不可能的最後是不是要找個時間去跟跟另外人說明一下"},{"start":785.183,"end":793.265,"text":"主委啊 您是博士啊 您是從事呢當然啊 所以我就是要點出你根本主管機關根本沒有這個組織工人業務的分類 那你要怎麼管你根本沒有辦法管 你沒有手腳 你沒有預算可管你告訴我下面的所有的一個月內 好 謝謝"},{"start":815.205,"end":815.231,"text":"啊"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":105,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時27分）有請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：委員早。"],["林委員岱樺：好，主委。公平會作為主管機關，重點是「當責」，主管機關的作為是民間企業存續的關鍵，我就舉幾個事項，第一，外送平台合併案破局，第二，公平會的職掌與目的事業主管機關的關係，以及身為目的事業主管機關的責任是什麼？","在外送平台的決策當中，本席在去年11月28日提出質詢關切，我也絕對尊重你們的決議，但是要注意到你們的決策對企業的衝擊及影響是巨大的，也因為外送平台Uber Eats併購foodpanda遭公平會以「競爭疑慮大」駁回，所以Uber Eats決定終止併購foodpanda臺灣，它要支付多少錢？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：82億。"],["林委員岱樺：82億臺幣，所以你們的決策多麼重要！我們看公平會的職掌是什麼？掌理擬訂公平交易政策及法規，以及調查處理事業各種妨礙競爭的行為，包括獨占、結合及聯合等限制競爭行為及不公平競爭行為，還要研擬多層次傳銷的政策，完備相關法規並辦理有關違法的事件，當然你們有沒有在辦違法的事件，這個本席也多次的質詢了，這不是今天的重點。重點是你們公平會的組織架構，有法律事務處、公平競爭處、製造業競爭處、服務業競爭處、綜合規劃處，您的多層次傳銷的產業發展、規劃、輔導的主責部門在哪裡？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：在公平競爭處。"],["林委員岱樺：公平競爭處啊！那公平競爭處的業務在講什麼？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：主要是不公平競爭，像是不實廣告……"],["林委員岱樺：不公平競爭，那你又是多層次傳銷的主管機關，既然是產業的主管機關，你就要去做什麼事呢？來，我們看目的事業主管機關的責任是什麼？如同企業的掌舵者，要肩負引領目的事業朝向目標航行的重責大任，在這部分我爬梳了一下法律字典，我把它摘錄下來，很明顯地，這個主責機關不是一個純粹的行政單位，它必須具備策略思維、專業知識，還要有效整合資源的關鍵角色；其核心定義是什麼？是推動國家政策、產業升級、社會進步的關鍵作用，這個官署、主管機關對於這個產業是有社會進步中的關鍵作用。再看其核心定義，也就是它不只是負責監督跟管理而已，還要包括什麼？策略規劃、資源調配、政策執行等面向，它必須能夠精準掌握產業趨勢，並根據國家政策制定符合時代需求的發展策略。您覺得公平競爭處作為多層次傳銷的主管機關的輔導單位，我可以說是輔導單位嘛！若做為輔導單位的話，您覺得公平競爭處有做到下面這一頁所有我標了紅框的部分，這都是經濟部在做的。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：委員講的主責機關的責任，基本上我贊同，就是它是積極的又有規劃的作用，因為多層次傳銷事業本來一直都是公平會在管，所以沒錯，是由公平競爭處在管，但是也搭配傳保會，有很多比較規劃的事情是傳保會。"],["林委員岱樺：那太好了，您講到傳保會，竟然從你的口中講出，主管機關要輔導它的業務，主管機關不做，而給一個民間法人，這個基金會根本就是一個怪物，因為它基本上都是民間出錢、百分百的民間法人，但是你們卻竟然要有自己的官署代表。這也不是我今天的重點，而是你們就其輔導業務來講，從你口中說的是對的，主管機關說它不做，給一個民間法人去做其產業輔導跟發展，也就是財團法人多層次傳銷保護基金會，這個民間法人本來就不應該辦理官署，您說交給它，那我也很認真的，今天早上我還google一下這個基金會的組織章程，你認為其組織章程當中有所謂的策略思維、專業知識、整合資源，還要有配合國家政策制定符合時代需求的發展策略嗎？請您說看看。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：每個機關在其輔導的事業的未來規劃上，會隨著部會的性質不同而不同，傳銷事業本身是一個零售事業，比較不像有些高科技業也許必須要很宏觀前瞻，所以我覺得在目前的制度底下，當然我們是主管機關……"],["林委員岱樺：主委，你講到這個，我就又可以點出了，所以您是說經濟部商業司就可以廢掉了？它不需要……"],["陳代理主任委員志民：沒有，我沒有這樣講。"],["林委員岱樺：沒有，你聽我講完，因為這個業務就是服務業，所以你看你的商業思維是什麼，認為服務業不需要國家前瞻的規劃，你認為服務業當中也有包含什麼？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：需要，但是就是程度可能會有不一樣啦！"],["林委員岱樺：對啊！所以你們沒有辦法辦到嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：沒有，所以必須要跟……"],["林委員岱樺：你認為多層次傳銷放在你們這邊比較有發展性，還是放在經濟部比較有發展性？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我覺得就整個規管的經驗還有規管處理的實務來講，我們基本上是可以達到管理的目的。"],["林委員岱樺：你認不認同你們是球員兼裁判？你們是督導公平競爭，要糾舉各行各業，你知道你們的權力有多大嗎？你們的權力是涉及各行各業喔！財政部下整個銀行要併購，主管機關是金管會，它要問你，任何要整併的都要問你們，光是醫院跟醫院之間，大醫院跟大醫院之間要整併也要問你，這是衛福部的事情。各行各業都要問你，這才是叫公平競爭的督導。你說你們要督導這個行業的公平競爭，又要輔導它能夠產業發展，這當然是牴觸，這是我從來沒聽過的，全世界都有一個公平競爭的獨立單位，但是我從來沒有聽過，這是臺灣首創，有針對業務的輔導、行業的督導，包括國家發展、產業升級、社會進步、產業趨勢的掌握、資源調配、政策執行，你知道經濟部的商業司，請你爬梳一下商業司的組織章程，一個服務業，你看商業司下各組所對應的。","我舉個例子，就以經濟部能源署為例，台電夠大了吧！是國營事業，但它絕對不是能源政策的主管機關，它的主管機關叫什麼？它叫做經濟部能源署。你看看能源署下所配置的是什麼，有再生能源、有節能、有電力、有油氣、有能源政策及氣候變遷，所以不管是台電或者是相關的這些再生能源，經過台電然後要做相關服務民眾的業務，這就是有什麼業務就配置什麼樣的官署，所以主管機關要有對應的業務分組。","所以我在這邊具體要求，請公平會針對職掌範圍內多層次傳銷的目的主管事業，負責規劃並成立輔導及產業發展的主責組織及人員配置，您可不可以做到呢？去研議吧！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：因為影響層面很大……"],["林委員岱樺：對啊！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：這個我們可能要再思考一下。"],["林委員岱樺：因為你們一直放手不做啊！今天我已經跟你們講過多少次，從李鎂主委到你，剛才你的話讓所有臺灣人民知道服務業不需要國家前瞻策略的主導，這句話從你口中剛才……"],["陳代理主任委員志民：委員，我沒有這樣講。"],["林委員岱樺：要不要倒帶一下？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我是講說服務業的輔導也有不同的層次。"],["林委員岱樺：沒有，你說在不同的部會當中有不同的業務……"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對，因為服務業也有不同，所以……"],["林委員岱樺：你要不要再……主委……"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我的意思是說不同的層次……"],["林委員岱樺：你剛才是說業務主管機關在不同的部會有不同的作法，但是您就知道，你們要做一個經濟發展的功能是不可以在公平會的，你認不認同？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我覺得這要看過去的執法……"],["林委員岱樺：你還要再看？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對，我覺得……"],["林委員岱樺：好，沒關係，請你在一個月內很明確地把所有各部會在輔導其產業，教育部也有教育產業，他們有相關的輔導喔！衛福部也好，包括國防部也有相關的，他們針對國防自主的部分，相關的如何能夠跟我們的工合業務，它要怎麼輔導下去，能夠讓技術留在臺灣，這都有，那你的部分就要很明確了，既然你一定要去管這個業務，你就要管得好、管得棒，包括多層次傳銷裡面的商業模式，我曾經都做過簡報，你們都搞不清楚啊！我還把全世界不管日本、韓國、東南亞的商業模式，還要我提供給你們耶！這就是產業發展。所以你們在這邊，我具體要求，除了法律事務處、公平競爭處、製造業競爭處、服務業競爭處、綜合規劃處之外，針對多層次傳銷的主管機關，您要有一個單獨的組織出來，這個組織你如果不會，請參照中華民國行政院各部會在輔導其產業時的相關業務功能分組，一個月內可以嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：委員，你講的是我們要研究有沒有可能去設這樣的處，還是我們一定要設這個處？"],["林委員岱樺：你一定要……"],["陳代理主任委員志民：因為如果要增加一個來管多層次傳銷，那個是一個組織的……"],["林委員岱樺：OK，你一定要設一個處或組，因為在你們的職掌當中，主委啊！看清楚，你看你的組織架構是什麼？在第四頁，叫做公平競爭處……"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我知道……"],["林委員岱樺：製造業競爭處、服務業競爭處、綜合規劃處跟法律事務處，你不要告訴我，你要把它放在競爭處，這是不可能的。"],["主席：請主委會後是不是要找個時間去跟林委員說明一下？"],["林委員岱樺：主委啊！你是博士耶！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：因為委員的建議涉及到整個組織重組的政策，這必須要從長考慮……"],["林委員岱樺：當然啊，所以我就是要點出你們主管機關根本沒有組織功能業務的分類，那你要怎麼管？你根本沒有辦法管，你沒有手腳、你沒有預算可以管，你告訴我下面的所有的……"],["陳代理主任委員志民：那我們……"],["主席：代理主委，我想會後應該要跟林委員就這件事情……"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是，我們回去研議。"],["主席：你們再研議溝通一下。"],["林委員岱樺：好，一個月內。好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林岱樺委員。","下一位請陳亭妃委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-2","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳超明","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","陳培瑜"],"page_start":121,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請公平交易委員會代理主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00003"}}}