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336.492, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 338.634, \"end\": 354.008, \"text\": \"那這樣子才通過那當然這樣子有很多人的討論所以我本身要問的狀態是當你現在變成代理主委的時候你對於那過程當中是不是有一些行政上面的不夠完善的地方那我們這邊公平會這邊能夠做什麼\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 338.634, \"end\": 339.035, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 339.035, \"end\": 339.155, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 339.155, \"end\": 339.355, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 339.355, \"end\": 340.176, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 340.176, \"end\": 340.476, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 340.476, \"end\": 340.676, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 340.676, \"end\": 340.816, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 340.816, \"end\": 340.916, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 340.916, \"end\": 341.077, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 351.526, \"end\": 351.766, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"善\", \"start\": 351.766, \"end\": 351.966, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 351.966, \"end\": 352.126, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 352.126, \"end\": 352.386, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 352.386, \"end\": 353.187, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 353.187, \"end\": 353.327, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 353.327, \"end\": 353.407, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 353.407, \"end\": 353.507, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"平\", \"start\": 353.507, \"end\": 353.608, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 353.608, \"end\": 353.768, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 353.768, \"end\": 353.988, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 353.988, 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\"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 360.43, \"end\": 360.57, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 360.57, \"end\": 360.81, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 360.81, \"end\": 360.93, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 360.93, \"end\": 361.01, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 361.01, \"end\": 361.651, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 361.651, \"end\": 361.771, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 361.771, \"end\": 361.851, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 361.851, \"end\": 362.011, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 362.011, \"end\": 362.251, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 362.251, \"end\": 362.392, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 362.392, \"end\": 362.492, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 362.492, \"end\": 362.592, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 362.592, \"end\": 362.992, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 362.992, \"end\": 363.172, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 363.172, \"end\": 363.753, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 363.753, \"end\": 363.973, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 363.973, \"end\": 364.153, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 364.153, \"end\": 364.253, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 364.253, \"end\": 364.353, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 364.353, \"end\": 364.473, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 364.473, \"end\": 364.553, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 364.553, \"end\": 365.534, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"爭\"}, {\"word\": \"執\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 365.534, \"end\": 365.714, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 365.714, 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\"法\", \"start\": 372.16, \"end\": 372.3, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"律\", \"start\": 372.3, \"end\": 372.4, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 372.4, \"end\": 372.54, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 372.54, \"end\": 372.6, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 372.6, \"end\": 372.76, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 372.76, \"end\": 372.94, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 372.94, \"end\": 373.101, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 373.101, \"end\": 373.401, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 373.401, \"end\": 373.541, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 373.541, \"end\": 374.061, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 374.061, \"end\": 374.382, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 374.382, \"end\": 374.722, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": 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\"才能夠讓他去併購另外一家公司那當時顯然是這樣子的方式條件出去那我看到你們這邊他說用自行承諾的方式顯然這過程當中可能就是公平會也認為當中有一些些的違規的一些疑慮所以在字眼上面也不是這麼用可是我認為當你現在變成代理主委的時候我覺得對於以後碰到這樣的問題可能要特別的一個謹慎是\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 399.545, \"end\": 399.705, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 399.705, \"end\": 400.166, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 400.166, \"end\": 400.366, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 400.366, \"end\": 400.906, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"併\"}, {\"word\": \"購\"}, {\"word\": \"另\", \"start\": 400.906, \"end\": 401.106, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 401.106, \"end\": 401.246, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 401.246, \"end\": 401.487, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 401.487, \"end\": 401.687, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 401.687, \"end\": 401.947, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 401.947, \"end\": 402.447, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"那\", 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\"因為這個事情在這一次的一個人事同意權就反映出來了到底誰真的擔當有誠實那就會反映在後續的狀態所以我們後續會注意OK我接下來想問一下主委你知道Google現在占台灣的一個搜尋市場大概有多大\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 426.286, \"end\": 426.626, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 426.626, \"end\": 426.786, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 426.786, \"end\": 426.986, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 426.986, \"end\": 427.327, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 427.327, \"end\": 427.527, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 427.527, \"end\": 427.727, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 427.727, \"end\": 427.847, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 427.847, \"end\": 428.087, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 428.087, \"end\": 428.227, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 428.227, \"end\": 428.347, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 428.347, \"end\": 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0.481}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,492 --> 00:00:10,378\n謝主席我想請一下陳志明代理主委好請主委\n\n2\n00:00:20,209 --> 00:00:42,616\n鄭委員早戴主委好因為我有看到那個今年月曙我們公民會有發布一個新聞他就說有一家叫海豐公司的那個載客小船然後被罰了五萬塊這件事情我不知道主委戴主委知不知道這件事情我知道你知道OK那我們看到這件事情就是說\n\n3\n00:00:44,016 --> 00:01:10,619\n海豐遊艇這個公司我們後來就隔了兩個月我們在上網繼續去看那發掘這家公司還是一樣用海豐遊艇在做網站名稱然後一樣用遊艇租賃作為選項那針對這樣子的事情其實我們一樣看到就它一樣可以挑選船什麼狂歡之舞五號狂歡之舞一號璀璨之翼請問這些部分這三艘船哪一艘是遊艇\n\n4\n00:01:13,203 --> 00:01:23,931\n我想這個案子應該是只要是遊艇應該就可以出租了我們這個案子處理的是他宣稱他是最大他的不實的地方是在於他對外所以他是遊艇所以你們認為他是遊艇我想這個\n\n5\n00:01:29,993 --> 00:01:41,639\n載客小船客船還有娛樂漁船這個不包括其中不包括這個算是遊艇嗎這個不包括遊艇對所以你們罰他你說只是廣告不實還是因為他也不符合遊艇相關的一個規定\n\n6\n00:01:44,073 --> 00:02:01,421\n我們主要是針對它的廣告的不實那顯然你們在開罰當中的時候可能也還沒有很落實因為我們如果針對是遊艇的時候它必須要有驗船的一個那個許可的核可你知道這個事情嗎那顯然它到底有沒有你知不知道我們請處長來說明一下是\n\n7\n00:02:08,064 --> 00:02:26,084\n跟委員報告齁這個案子呢因為他當時的廣告的宣稱是說全台最大遊艇活動遊艇租賃所以其實這家公司呢雖然他當時營運的有一些是所以你覺得他把最大拿掉就合規合法了你的意思是這樣子嗎\n\n8\n00:02:30,269 --> 00:02:40,280\n那你們再回去稍微查一下就是說它這個部分因為我們看到的情況它就是載客小船嘛客船然後漁船漁樂漁船\n\n9\n00:02:42,362 --> 00:03:02,265\n這些都不是遊艇喔所以你們如果說當時只是因為他寫了最大這兩個字你們開罰他五萬塊錢然後感覺他還是在繼續那我在想說針對這個部分你們回去稍微再去研究一下後續狀態再給本席一個很清楚的狀態到底是開罰最大以外他到底是不是合規的遊艇公司好不好\n\n10\n00:03:03,690 --> 00:03:25,741\n我們這個部分會再了解那跟我們報告他主要因為他是做租賃所以他是說他是可以去租遊艇來做租賃的理解那他到底有沒有所以我才問你說狂歡151號是不是遊艇嗎他上面網站他們都可以直接選擇你現在跟我爭辯這狀態他到底是不是嗎你們都還不確定的時候你在跟我爭辯這事情我們會去了解\n\n11\n00:03:26,621 --> 00:03:49,375\nOK好那接下來我想問一下就是代理主委因為在這一次的那個公平會委員的人事同意權當中的時候我們看到了就是我們前主委他之所以沒有過關很大一個部分是因為在2022年公平會有條件通過全年併購大論發案件的時候那麼有委員在\n\n12\n00:03:50,896 --> 00:04:15,289\n會議當中要求全聯每年要捐3億元贊助活動那當時前主委的時候他身為在現場他沒有表示任何的意見而你會順利通過是因為有黨團他覺得你很有擔當你坦承這件事情屬實那麼也表示自己當時有提醒有違規之餘\n\n13\n00:04:17,590 --> 00:04:44,140\n詳細的狀態是不是這樣子是這樣子是這樣子喔OK那我想請教一下那現在因為你順利通過這個就是人事統一權的審查你現在是代理主委那對於這件事情當時顯然你都認為有違規之餘的情況的時候那現在你身為公平會的代理主委的時候你針對這件案子你覺得有沒有要重新調查的一個必要\n\n14\n00:04:44,580 --> 00:05:02,234\n就如同在上一次那個場合我所講的我是認為那個可能有一些疑慮那其他因為我們是一個獨立機關其他委員都同樣有發言的權利跟做表決的權利那顯然也許別的委員他有一些不同的考慮他的認知也許跟我不一樣所以到最後多數決就通過所以\n\n15\n00:05:02,614 --> 00:05:17,470\n那這個案子既然已經通過那事實上當事人也沒有針對再提起所謂的一個救濟的程序那另外對於公益捐款這件事情其實全能本身他是主動就一開始的申請的時候就主動說他們可以做一個公益捐款\n\n16\n00:05:18,070 --> 00:05:36,492\n我看到你們當時的一個新聞稿當中因為他有提到有七大條件其實這邊裡面有一個部分他特別提到你們特別提到說就全聯他自行承諾可是我們看到如果說回歸到你那過程當中的時候就有委員要求他每年繳3億的時候\n\n17\n00:05:38,634 --> 00:05:54,008\n那這樣子才通過那當然這樣子有很多人的討論所以我本身要問的狀態是當你現在變成代理主委的時候你對於那過程當中是不是有一些行政上面的不夠完善的地方那我們這邊公平會這邊能夠做什麼\n\n18\n00:05:58,749 --> 00:06:18,025\n我想這個案子就如同剛剛跟委員報告因為這個案子已經基本上本質上就是已經確定通過然後當事人也沒有爭執那公益捐款的部分當事人也承諾也繼續持續在捐款所以我們就基於這個案件的法律上的安定性跟確定性來講我們覺得這個案子似乎也沒有再重啟這個調查的程序了\n\n19\n00:06:18,385 --> 00:06:39,005\nOK所以我可以這麼理解說除非全聯他們再提出來否則公評會這邊不會自己再重啟這個部分的調查是這樣的意思嗎目前我們沒有打算重啟調查OK理解因為我在想說他這當中有一些邏輯上的問題因為當時如果有委員提出這樣的一個公益捐款的部分的時候要求廠商去做\n\n20\n00:06:39,545 --> 00:07:04,585\n才能夠讓他去併購另外一家公司那當時顯然是這樣子的方式條件出去那我看到你們這邊他說用自行承諾的方式顯然這過程當中可能就是公平會也認為當中有一些些的違規的一些疑慮所以在字眼上面也不是這麼用可是我認為當你現在變成代理主委的時候我覺得對於以後碰到這樣的問題可能要特別的一個謹慎是\n\n21\n00:07:06,286 --> 00:07:23,735\n因為這個事情在這一次的一個人事同意權就反映出來了到底誰真的擔當有誠實那就會反映在後續的狀態所以我們後續會注意OK我接下來想問一下主委你知道Google現在占台灣的一個搜尋市場大概有多大\n\n22\n00:07:25,755 --> 00:07:47,161\n相關的大概七成左右七成喔我的數字在2023年開始的時候台灣使用Google的搜尋女性人數大概將近九成那這也許有一些統計上面的一些問題那我是不管七成或九成就表示它很大我們之前在討論就是UberEats要併Foodpanda的時候\n\n23\n00:07:48,430 --> 00:08:04,725\n他們併完之後的市場可能有七八成的時候我們認為就覺得不適合那現在Google他不管是八成九成的狀態表示他其實是台灣其實是非常壟斷的那我再往下看一個資料我會去整理了這個部分這幾年\n\n24\n00:08:07,409 --> 00:08:27,267\n全球很多很多的國家包括歐盟都對於Google違反競爭的相關的一個行為有很多很多的一個處分那我整理出了十個樣態包括說在搜尋結果當中偏袒自家的服務要求手機廠商優先\n\n25\n00:08:29,028 --> 00:08:43,298\n事先要預先安裝Google旗下的一個服務等等有十種的樣態包括美國自己都認為要求iPhone手機跟其他瀏覽器廠開發商跟Android的智能手機製造商\n\n26\n00:08:44,119 --> 00:09:03,106\n跟無線運營商都要先預設Google搜尋引擎都是有問題的所以處分Google的包括美國包括歐盟包括印度包括俄羅斯包括日本包括南韓包括法國加拿大澳洲都處理了台灣這邊要怎麼做\n\n27\n00:09:04,647 --> 00:09:26,005\n剛剛委員談了幾個案例我們都有在注意那預載的案子事實上我們也處理過那只是說處理的結論跟別的國家不太一樣因為我們做過市場調查因為我們在公平法裡面獨佔當然是一個事實但是獨佔並不當然會違法我們要看他的行為有沒有濫用這個力量去行為所以這十個樣態的時候包括了說\n\n28\n00:09:28,683 --> 00:09:37,019\n偏滿自家的一個服務包括了一個預設這個事情包括了比方說其他的\n\n29\n00:09:38,556 --> 00:09:58,827\n新聞的註冊權相關的使用包括了捆綁各種的廣告科技工具等等這十種樣態的時候我們公平會這邊都有去檢討過嗎我們有做過市場的調查就是我們特別去問說這類型的行為在台灣的市場業者之間是不是的確也存在類似的問題\n\n30\n00:09:59,767 --> 00:10:16,854\n那基本上我們所做的調查結果基本上回來的表示都是說台灣比較沒有這方面的問題針對這個部分我想你知事後給我一個很清楚狀態我們公評會怎麼去看待Google這個事情那對於Google壟斷的事情我們有沒有\n\n31\n00:10:17,794 --> 00:10:38,999\n之後會不會有一些具體的做法還是你之前的那個調查結果之後就是未來確保Google接下來就可以反風順還是我們會不會有一些相關的數位市場的一個競爭法案的提出我們會持續的觀察數位市場的演變啊對還是會觀察就是我們這本來就是我們在\n\n32\n00:10:41,840 --> 00:11:08,573\n處理獨佔力量用聯合行為各方面我們都會持續去處理所以公民會現在有沒有打算要擬一個數位市場競爭法案目前我們是從強化數位執法能力來著手目前沒有規劃要特別針對一個專法來那麼針對這個部分跟Google你們之前研討的狀態還有針對世界其他的一個國家針對這十種Google的樣態你們去做一個分析之後再給本辦公室一個很清楚的一個說明是好不好是謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝好\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7492\t10378\t謝主席我想請一下陳志明代理主委好請主委\n20209\t42616\t鄭委員早戴主委好因為我有看到那個今年月曙我們公民會有發布一個新聞他就說有一家叫海豐公司的那個載客小船然後被罰了五萬塊這件事情我不知道主委戴主委知不知道這件事情我知道你知道OK那我們看到這件事情就是說\n44016\t70619\t海豐遊艇這個公司我們後來就隔了兩個月我們在上網繼續去看那發掘這家公司還是一樣用海豐遊艇在做網站名稱然後一樣用遊艇租賃作為選項那針對這樣子的事情其實我們一樣看到就它一樣可以挑選船什麼狂歡之舞五號狂歡之舞一號璀璨之翼請問這些部分這三艘船哪一艘是遊艇\n73203\t83931\t我想這個案子應該是只要是遊艇應該就可以出租了我們這個案子處理的是他宣稱他是最大他的不實的地方是在於他對外所以他是遊艇所以你們認為他是遊艇我想這個\n89993\t101639\t載客小船客船還有娛樂漁船這個不包括其中不包括這個算是遊艇嗎這個不包括遊艇對所以你們罰他你說只是廣告不實還是因為他也不符合遊艇相關的一個規定\n104073\t121421\t我們主要是針對它的廣告的不實那顯然你們在開罰當中的時候可能也還沒有很落實因為我們如果針對是遊艇的時候它必須要有驗船的一個那個許可的核可你知道這個事情嗎那顯然它到底有沒有你知不知道我們請處長來說明一下是\n128064\t146084\t跟委員報告齁這個案子呢因為他當時的廣告的宣稱是說全台最大遊艇活動遊艇租賃所以其實這家公司呢雖然他當時營運的有一些是所以你覺得他把最大拿掉就合規合法了你的意思是這樣子嗎\n150269\t160280\t那你們再回去稍微查一下就是說它這個部分 因為我們看到的情況它就是載客小船嘛 客船然後漁船 漁樂漁船\n162362\t182265\t這些都不是遊艇喔所以你們如果說當時只是因為他寫了最大這兩個字你們開罰他五萬塊錢然後感覺他還是在繼續那我在想說針對這個部分你們回去稍微再去研究一下後續狀態再給本席一個很清楚的狀態到底是開罰最大以外他到底是不是合規的遊艇公司好不好\n183690\t205741\t我們這個部分會再了解那跟我們報告他主要因為他是做租賃所以他是說他是可以去租遊艇來做租賃的理解那他到底有沒有所以我才問你說狂歡151號是不是遊艇嗎他上面網站他們都可以直接選擇你現在跟我爭辯這狀態他到底是不是嗎你們都還不確定的時候你在跟我爭辯這事情我們會去了解\n206621\t229375\tOK好那接下來我想問一下就是代理主委因為在這一次的那個公平會委員的人事同意權當中的時候我們看到了就是我們前主委他之所以沒有過關很大一個部分是因為在2022年公平會有條件通過全年併購大論發案件的時候那麼有委員在\n230896\t255289\t會議當中要求全聯每年要捐3億元贊助活動那當時前主委的時候他身為在現場他沒有表示任何的意見而你會順利通過是因為有黨團他覺得你很有擔當你坦承這件事情屬實那麼也表示自己當時有提醒有違規之餘\n257590\t284140\t詳細的狀態是不是這樣子是這樣子是這樣子喔OK那我想請教一下那現在因為你順利通過這個就是人事統一權的審查你現在是代理主委那對於這件事情當時顯然你都認為有違規之餘的情況的時候那現在你身為公平會的代理主委的時候你針對這件案子你覺得有沒有要重新調查的一個必要\n284580\t302234\t就如同在上一次那個場合我所講的我是認為那個可能有一些疑慮那其他因為我們是一個獨立機關其他委員都同樣有發言的權利跟做表決的權利那顯然也許別的委員他有一些不同的考慮他的認知也許跟我不一樣所以到最後多數決就通過所以\n302614\t317470\t那這個案子既然已經通過那事實上當事人也沒有針對再提起所謂的一個救濟的程序那另外對於公益捐款這件事情其實全能本身他是主動就一開始的申請的時候就主動說他們可以做一個公益捐款\n318070\t336492\t我看到你們當時的一個新聞稿當中因為他有提到有七大條件其實這邊裡面有一個部分他特別提到你們特別提到說就全聯他自行承諾可是我們看到如果說回歸到你那過程當中的時候就有委員要求他每年繳3億的時候\n338634\t354008\t那這樣子才通過那當然這樣子有很多人的討論所以我本身要問的狀態是當你現在變成代理主委的時候你對於那過程當中是不是有一些行政上面的不夠完善的地方那我們這邊公平會這邊能夠做什麼\n358749\t378025\t我想這個案子就如同剛剛跟委員報告因為這個案子已經基本上本質上就是已經確定通過然後當事人也沒有爭執那公益捐款的部分當事人也承諾也繼續持續在捐款所以我們就基於這個案件的法律上的安定性跟確定性來講我們覺得這個案子似乎也沒有再重啟這個調查的程序了\n378385\t399005\tOK 所以我可以這麼理解說除非全聯他們再提出來否則公評會這邊不會自己再重啟這個部分的調查是這樣的意思嗎目前我們沒有打算重啟調查OK 理解因為我在想說他這當中有一些邏輯上的問題因為當時如果有委員提出這樣的一個公益捐款的部分的時候要求廠商去做\n399545\t424585\t才能夠讓他去併購另外一家公司那當時顯然是這樣子的方式條件出去那我看到你們這邊他說用自行承諾的方式顯然這過程當中可能就是公平會也認為當中有一些些的違規的一些疑慮所以在字眼上面也不是這麼用可是我認為當你現在變成代理主委的時候我覺得對於以後碰到這樣的問題可能要特別的一個謹慎是\n426286\t443735\t因為這個事情在這一次的一個人事同意權就反映出來了到底誰真的擔當有誠實那就會反映在後續的狀態所以我們後續會注意OK我接下來想問一下主委你知道Google現在占台灣的一個搜尋市場大概有多大\n445755\t467161\t相關的大概七成左右七成喔我的數字在2023年開始的時候台灣使用Google的搜尋女性人數大概將近九成那這也許有一些統計上面的一些問題那我是不管七成或九成就表示它很大我們之前在討論就是Uber Eats要併Foodpanda的時候\n468430\t484725\t他們併完之後的市場可能有七八成的時候我們認為就覺得不適合那現在Google他不管是八成九成的狀態表示他其實是台灣其實是非常壟斷的那我再往下看一個資料我會去整理了這個部分這幾年\n487409\t507267\t全球很多很多的國家包括歐盟都對於Google違反競爭的相關的一個行為有很多很多的一個處分那我整理出了十個樣態包括說在搜尋結果當中偏袒自家的服務要求手機廠商優先\n509028\t523298\t事先要預先安裝Google旗下的一個服務等等有十種的樣態包括美國自己都認為要求iPhone手機跟其他瀏覽器廠開發商跟Android的智能手機製造商\n524119\t543106\t跟無線運營商都要先預設Google搜尋引擎都是有問題的所以處分Google的包括美國包括歐盟包括印度包括俄羅斯包括日本包括南韓包括法國加拿大澳洲都處理了台灣這邊要怎麼做\n544647\t566005\t剛剛委員談了幾個案例我們都有在注意那預載的案子事實上我們也處理過那只是說處理的結論跟別的國家不太一樣因為我們做過市場調查因為我們在公平法裡面獨佔當然是一個事實但是獨佔並不當然會違法我們要看他的行為有沒有濫用這個力量去行為所以這十個樣態的時候包括了說\n568683\t577019\t偏滿自家的一個服務包括了一個預設這個事情包括了比方說其他的\n578556\t598827\t新聞的註冊權相關的使用包括了捆綁各種的廣告科技工具等等這十種樣態的時候我們公平會這邊都有去檢討過嗎我們有做過市場的調查就是我們特別去問說這類型的行為在台灣的市場業者之間是不是的確也存在類似的問題\n599767\t616854\t那基本上我們所做的調查結果基本上回來的表示都是說台灣比較沒有這方面的問題針對這個部分我想你知事後給我一個很清楚狀態我們公評會怎麼去看待Google這個事情那對於Google壟斷的事情我們有沒有\n617794\t638999\t之後會不會有一些具體的做法還是你之前的那個調查結果之後就是未來確保Google接下來就可以反風順還是我們會不會有一些相關的數位市場的一個競爭法案的提出我們會持續的觀察數位市場的演變啊對還是會觀察就是我們這本來就是我們在\n641840\t668573\t處理獨佔力量用聯合行為各方面我們都會持續去處理所以公民會現在有沒有打算要擬一個數位市場競爭法案目前我們是從強化數位執法能力來著手目前沒有規劃要特別針對一個專法來那麼針對這個部分跟Google你們之前研討的狀態還有針對世界其他的一個國家針對這十種Google的樣態你們去做一個分析之後再給本辦公室一個很清楚的一個說明是好不好是 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝好\n","txt":"謝主席我想請一下陳志明代理主委好請主委\n鄭委員早戴主委好因為我有看到那個今年月曙我們公民會有發布一個新聞他就說有一家叫海豐公司的那個載客小船然後被罰了五萬塊這件事情我不知道主委戴主委知不知道這件事情我知道你知道OK那我們看到這件事情就是說\n海豐遊艇這個公司我們後來就隔了兩個月我們在上網繼續去看那發掘這家公司還是一樣用海豐遊艇在做網站名稱然後一樣用遊艇租賃作為選項那針對這樣子的事情其實我們一樣看到就它一樣可以挑選船什麼狂歡之舞五號狂歡之舞一號璀璨之翼請問這些部分這三艘船哪一艘是遊艇\n我想這個案子應該是只要是遊艇應該就可以出租了我們這個案子處理的是他宣稱他是最大他的不實的地方是在於他對外所以他是遊艇所以你們認為他是遊艇我想這個\n載客小船客船還有娛樂漁船這個不包括其中不包括這個算是遊艇嗎這個不包括遊艇對所以你們罰他你說只是廣告不實還是因為他也不符合遊艇相關的一個規定\n我們主要是針對它的廣告的不實那顯然你們在開罰當中的時候可能也還沒有很落實因為我們如果針對是遊艇的時候它必須要有驗船的一個那個許可的核可你知道這個事情嗎那顯然它到底有沒有你知不知道我們請處長來說明一下是\n跟委員報告齁這個案子呢因為他當時的廣告的宣稱是說全台最大遊艇活動遊艇租賃所以其實這家公司呢雖然他當時營運的有一些是所以你覺得他把最大拿掉就合規合法了你的意思是這樣子嗎\n那你們再回去稍微查一下就是說它這個部分 因為我們看到的情況它就是載客小船嘛 客船然後漁船 漁樂漁船\n這些都不是遊艇喔所以你們如果說當時只是因為他寫了最大這兩個字你們開罰他五萬塊錢然後感覺他還是在繼續那我在想說針對這個部分你們回去稍微再去研究一下後續狀態再給本席一個很清楚的狀態到底是開罰最大以外他到底是不是合規的遊艇公司好不好\n我們這個部分會再了解那跟我們報告他主要因為他是做租賃所以他是說他是可以去租遊艇來做租賃的理解那他到底有沒有所以我才問你說狂歡151號是不是遊艇嗎他上面網站他們都可以直接選擇你現在跟我爭辯這狀態他到底是不是嗎你們都還不確定的時候你在跟我爭辯這事情我們會去了解\nOK好那接下來我想問一下就是代理主委因為在這一次的那個公平會委員的人事同意權當中的時候我們看到了就是我們前主委他之所以沒有過關很大一個部分是因為在2022年公平會有條件通過全年併購大論發案件的時候那麼有委員在\n會議當中要求全聯每年要捐3億元贊助活動那當時前主委的時候他身為在現場他沒有表示任何的意見而你會順利通過是因為有黨團他覺得你很有擔當你坦承這件事情屬實那麼也表示自己當時有提醒有違規之餘\n詳細的狀態是不是這樣子是這樣子是這樣子喔OK那我想請教一下那現在因為你順利通過這個就是人事統一權的審查你現在是代理主委那對於這件事情當時顯然你都認為有違規之餘的情況的時候那現在你身為公平會的代理主委的時候你針對這件案子你覺得有沒有要重新調查的一個必要\n就如同在上一次那個場合我所講的我是認為那個可能有一些疑慮那其他因為我們是一個獨立機關其他委員都同樣有發言的權利跟做表決的權利那顯然也許別的委員他有一些不同的考慮他的認知也許跟我不一樣所以到最後多數決就通過所以\n那這個案子既然已經通過那事實上當事人也沒有針對再提起所謂的一個救濟的程序那另外對於公益捐款這件事情其實全能本身他是主動就一開始的申請的時候就主動說他們可以做一個公益捐款\n我看到你們當時的一個新聞稿當中因為他有提到有七大條件其實這邊裡面有一個部分他特別提到你們特別提到說就全聯他自行承諾可是我們看到如果說回歸到你那過程當中的時候就有委員要求他每年繳3億的時候\n那這樣子才通過那當然這樣子有很多人的討論所以我本身要問的狀態是當你現在變成代理主委的時候你對於那過程當中是不是有一些行政上面的不夠完善的地方那我們這邊公平會這邊能夠做什麼\n我想這個案子就如同剛剛跟委員報告因為這個案子已經基本上本質上就是已經確定通過然後當事人也沒有爭執那公益捐款的部分當事人也承諾也繼續持續在捐款所以我們就基於這個案件的法律上的安定性跟確定性來講我們覺得這個案子似乎也沒有再重啟這個調查的程序了\nOK 所以我可以這麼理解說除非全聯他們再提出來否則公評會這邊不會自己再重啟這個部分的調查是這樣的意思嗎目前我們沒有打算重啟調查OK 理解因為我在想說他這當中有一些邏輯上的問題因為當時如果有委員提出這樣的一個公益捐款的部分的時候要求廠商去做\n才能夠讓他去併購另外一家公司那當時顯然是這樣子的方式條件出去那我看到你們這邊他說用自行承諾的方式顯然這過程當中可能就是公平會也認為當中有一些些的違規的一些疑慮所以在字眼上面也不是這麼用可是我認為當你現在變成代理主委的時候我覺得對於以後碰到這樣的問題可能要特別的一個謹慎是\n因為這個事情在這一次的一個人事同意權就反映出來了到底誰真的擔當有誠實那就會反映在後續的狀態所以我們後續會注意OK我接下來想問一下主委你知道Google現在占台灣的一個搜尋市場大概有多大\n相關的大概七成左右七成喔我的數字在2023年開始的時候台灣使用Google的搜尋女性人數大概將近九成那這也許有一些統計上面的一些問題那我是不管七成或九成就表示它很大我們之前在討論就是Uber Eats要併Foodpanda的時候\n他們併完之後的市場可能有七八成的時候我們認為就覺得不適合那現在Google他不管是八成九成的狀態表示他其實是台灣其實是非常壟斷的那我再往下看一個資料我會去整理了這個部分這幾年\n全球很多很多的國家包括歐盟都對於Google違反競爭的相關的一個行為有很多很多的一個處分那我整理出了十個樣態包括說在搜尋結果當中偏袒自家的服務要求手機廠商優先\n事先要預先安裝Google旗下的一個服務等等有十種的樣態包括美國自己都認為要求iPhone手機跟其他瀏覽器廠開發商跟Android的智能手機製造商\n跟無線運營商都要先預設Google搜尋引擎都是有問題的所以處分Google的包括美國包括歐盟包括印度包括俄羅斯包括日本包括南韓包括法國加拿大澳洲都處理了台灣這邊要怎麼做\n剛剛委員談了幾個案例我們都有在注意那預載的案子事實上我們也處理過那只是說處理的結論跟別的國家不太一樣因為我們做過市場調查因為我們在公平法裡面獨佔當然是一個事實但是獨佔並不當然會違法我們要看他的行為有沒有濫用這個力量去行為所以這十個樣態的時候包括了說\n偏滿自家的一個服務包括了一個預設這個事情包括了比方說其他的\n新聞的註冊權相關的使用包括了捆綁各種的廣告科技工具等等這十種樣態的時候我們公平會這邊都有去檢討過嗎我們有做過市場的調查就是我們特別去問說這類型的行為在台灣的市場業者之間是不是的確也存在類似的問題\n那基本上我們所做的調查結果基本上回來的表示都是說台灣比較沒有這方面的問題針對這個部分我想你知事後給我一個很清楚狀態我們公評會怎麼去看待Google這個事情那對於Google壟斷的事情我們有沒有\n之後會不會有一些具體的做法還是你之前的那個調查結果之後就是未來確保Google接下來就可以反風順還是我們會不會有一些相關的數位市場的一個競爭法案的提出我們會持續的觀察數位市場的演變啊對還是會觀察就是我們這本來就是我們在\n處理獨佔力量用聯合行為各方面我們都會持續去處理所以公民會現在有沒有打算要擬一個數位市場競爭法案目前我們是從強化數位執法能力來著手目前沒有規劃要特別針對一個專法來那麼針對這個部分跟Google你們之前研討的狀態還有針對世界其他的一個國家針對這十種Google的樣態你們去做一個分析之後再給本辦公室一個很清楚的一個說明是好不好是 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝好\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.492 --> 00:10.378\n謝主席我想請一下陳志明代理主委好請主委\n\n00:20.209 --> 00:42.616\n鄭委員早戴主委好因為我有看到那個今年月曙我們公民會有發布一個新聞他就說有一家叫海豐公司的那個載客小船然後被罰了五萬塊這件事情我不知道主委戴主委知不知道這件事情我知道你知道OK那我們看到這件事情就是說\n\n00:44.016 --> 01:10.619\n海豐遊艇這個公司我們後來就隔了兩個月我們在上網繼續去看那發掘這家公司還是一樣用海豐遊艇在做網站名稱然後一樣用遊艇租賃作為選項那針對這樣子的事情其實我們一樣看到就它一樣可以挑選船什麼狂歡之舞五號狂歡之舞一號璀璨之翼請問這些部分這三艘船哪一艘是遊艇\n\n01:13.203 --> 01:23.931\n我想這個案子應該是只要是遊艇應該就可以出租了我們這個案子處理的是他宣稱他是最大他的不實的地方是在於他對外所以他是遊艇所以你們認為他是遊艇我想這個\n\n01:29.993 --> 01:41.639\n載客小船客船還有娛樂漁船這個不包括其中不包括這個算是遊艇嗎這個不包括遊艇對所以你們罰他你說只是廣告不實還是因為他也不符合遊艇相關的一個規定\n\n01:44.073 --> 02:01.421\n我們主要是針對它的廣告的不實那顯然你們在開罰當中的時候可能也還沒有很落實因為我們如果針對是遊艇的時候它必須要有驗船的一個那個許可的核可你知道這個事情嗎那顯然它到底有沒有你知不知道我們請處長來說明一下是\n\n02:08.064 --> 02:26.084\n跟委員報告齁這個案子呢因為他當時的廣告的宣稱是說全台最大遊艇活動遊艇租賃所以其實這家公司呢雖然他當時營運的有一些是所以你覺得他把最大拿掉就合規合法了你的意思是這樣子嗎\n\n02:30.269 --> 02:40.280\n那你們再回去稍微查一下就是說它這個部分因為我們看到的情況它就是載客小船嘛客船然後漁船漁樂漁船\n\n02:42.362 --> 03:02.265\n這些都不是遊艇喔所以你們如果說當時只是因為他寫了最大這兩個字你們開罰他五萬塊錢然後感覺他還是在繼續那我在想說針對這個部分你們回去稍微再去研究一下後續狀態再給本席一個很清楚的狀態到底是開罰最大以外他到底是不是合規的遊艇公司好不好\n\n03:03.690 --> 03:25.741\n我們這個部分會再了解那跟我們報告他主要因為他是做租賃所以他是說他是可以去租遊艇來做租賃的理解那他到底有沒有所以我才問你說狂歡151號是不是遊艇嗎他上面網站他們都可以直接選擇你現在跟我爭辯這狀態他到底是不是嗎你們都還不確定的時候你在跟我爭辯這事情我們會去了解\n\n03:26.621 --> 03:49.375\nOK好那接下來我想問一下就是代理主委因為在這一次的那個公平會委員的人事同意權當中的時候我們看到了就是我們前主委他之所以沒有過關很大一個部分是因為在2022年公平會有條件通過全年併購大論發案件的時候那麼有委員在\n\n03:50.896 --> 04:15.289\n會議當中要求全聯每年要捐3億元贊助活動那當時前主委的時候他身為在現場他沒有表示任何的意見而你會順利通過是因為有黨團他覺得你很有擔當你坦承這件事情屬實那麼也表示自己當時有提醒有違規之餘\n\n04:17.590 --> 04:44.140\n詳細的狀態是不是這樣子是這樣子是這樣子喔OK那我想請教一下那現在因為你順利通過這個就是人事統一權的審查你現在是代理主委那對於這件事情當時顯然你都認為有違規之餘的情況的時候那現在你身為公平會的代理主委的時候你針對這件案子你覺得有沒有要重新調查的一個必要\n\n04:44.580 --> 05:02.234\n就如同在上一次那個場合我所講的我是認為那個可能有一些疑慮那其他因為我們是一個獨立機關其他委員都同樣有發言的權利跟做表決的權利那顯然也許別的委員他有一些不同的考慮他的認知也許跟我不一樣所以到最後多數決就通過所以\n\n05:02.614 --> 05:17.470\n那這個案子既然已經通過那事實上當事人也沒有針對再提起所謂的一個救濟的程序那另外對於公益捐款這件事情其實全能本身他是主動就一開始的申請的時候就主動說他們可以做一個公益捐款\n\n05:18.070 --> 05:36.492\n我看到你們當時的一個新聞稿當中因為他有提到有七大條件其實這邊裡面有一個部分他特別提到你們特別提到說就全聯他自行承諾可是我們看到如果說回歸到你那過程當中的時候就有委員要求他每年繳3億的時候\n\n05:38.634 --> 05:54.008\n那這樣子才通過那當然這樣子有很多人的討論所以我本身要問的狀態是當你現在變成代理主委的時候你對於那過程當中是不是有一些行政上面的不夠完善的地方那我們這邊公平會這邊能夠做什麼\n\n05:58.749 --> 06:18.025\n我想這個案子就如同剛剛跟委員報告因為這個案子已經基本上本質上就是已經確定通過然後當事人也沒有爭執那公益捐款的部分當事人也承諾也繼續持續在捐款所以我們就基於這個案件的法律上的安定性跟確定性來講我們覺得這個案子似乎也沒有再重啟這個調查的程序了\n\n06:18.385 --> 06:39.005\nOK所以我可以這麼理解說除非全聯他們再提出來否則公評會這邊不會自己再重啟這個部分的調查是這樣的意思嗎目前我們沒有打算重啟調查OK理解因為我在想說他這當中有一些邏輯上的問題因為當時如果有委員提出這樣的一個公益捐款的部分的時候要求廠商去做\n\n06:39.545 --> 07:04.585\n才能夠讓他去併購另外一家公司那當時顯然是這樣子的方式條件出去那我看到你們這邊他說用自行承諾的方式顯然這過程當中可能就是公平會也認為當中有一些些的違規的一些疑慮所以在字眼上面也不是這麼用可是我認為當你現在變成代理主委的時候我覺得對於以後碰到這樣的問題可能要特別的一個謹慎是\n\n07:06.286 --> 07:23.735\n因為這個事情在這一次的一個人事同意權就反映出來了到底誰真的擔當有誠實那就會反映在後續的狀態所以我們後續會注意OK我接下來想問一下主委你知道Google現在占台灣的一個搜尋市場大概有多大\n\n07:25.755 --> 07:47.161\n相關的大概七成左右七成喔我的數字在2023年開始的時候台灣使用Google的搜尋女性人數大概將近九成那這也許有一些統計上面的一些問題那我是不管七成或九成就表示它很大我們之前在討論就是UberEats要併Foodpanda的時候\n\n07:48.430 --> 08:04.725\n他們併完之後的市場可能有七八成的時候我們認為就覺得不適合那現在Google他不管是八成九成的狀態表示他其實是台灣其實是非常壟斷的那我再往下看一個資料我會去整理了這個部分這幾年\n\n08:07.409 --> 08:27.267\n全球很多很多的國家包括歐盟都對於Google違反競爭的相關的一個行為有很多很多的一個處分那我整理出了十個樣態包括說在搜尋結果當中偏袒自家的服務要求手機廠商優先\n\n08:29.028 --> 08:43.298\n事先要預先安裝Google旗下的一個服務等等有十種的樣態包括美國自己都認為要求iPhone手機跟其他瀏覽器廠開發商跟Android的智能手機製造商\n\n08:44.119 --> 09:03.106\n跟無線運營商都要先預設Google搜尋引擎都是有問題的所以處分Google的包括美國包括歐盟包括印度包括俄羅斯包括日本包括南韓包括法國加拿大澳洲都處理了台灣這邊要怎麼做\n\n09:04.647 --> 09:26.005\n剛剛委員談了幾個案例我們都有在注意那預載的案子事實上我們也處理過那只是說處理的結論跟別的國家不太一樣因為我們做過市場調查因為我們在公平法裡面獨佔當然是一個事實但是獨佔並不當然會違法我們要看他的行為有沒有濫用這個力量去行為所以這十個樣態的時候包括了說\n\n09:28.683 --> 09:37.019\n偏滿自家的一個服務包括了一個預設這個事情包括了比方說其他的\n\n09:38.556 --> 09:58.827\n新聞的註冊權相關的使用包括了捆綁各種的廣告科技工具等等這十種樣態的時候我們公平會這邊都有去檢討過嗎我們有做過市場的調查就是我們特別去問說這類型的行為在台灣的市場業者之間是不是的確也存在類似的問題\n\n09:59.767 --> 10:16.854\n那基本上我們所做的調查結果基本上回來的表示都是說台灣比較沒有這方面的問題針對這個部分我想你知事後給我一個很清楚狀態我們公評會怎麼去看待Google這個事情那對於Google壟斷的事情我們有沒有\n\n10:17.794 --> 10:38.999\n之後會不會有一些具體的做法還是你之前的那個調查結果之後就是未來確保Google接下來就可以反風順還是我們會不會有一些相關的數位市場的一個競爭法案的提出我們會持續的觀察數位市場的演變啊對還是會觀察就是我們這本來就是我們在\n\n10:41.840 --> 11:08.573\n處理獨佔力量用聯合行為各方面我們都會持續去處理所以公民會現在有沒有打算要擬一個數位市場競爭法案目前我們是從強化數位執法能力來著手目前沒有規劃要特別針對一個專法來那麼針對這個部分跟Google你們之前研討的狀態還有針對世界其他的一個國家針對這十種Google的樣態你們去做一個分析之後再給本辦公室一個很清楚的一個說明是好不好是謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝好\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.492,"end":10.378,"text":"謝主席我想請一下陳志明代理主委好請主委"},{"start":20.209,"end":42.616,"text":"鄭委員早戴主委好因為我有看到那個今年月曙我們公民會有發布一個新聞他就說有一家叫海豐公司的那個載客小船然後被罰了五萬塊這件事情我不知道主委戴主委知不知道這件事情我知道你知道OK那我們看到這件事情就是說"},{"start":44.016,"end":70.619,"text":"海豐遊艇這個公司我們後來就隔了兩個月我們在上網繼續去看那發掘這家公司還是一樣用海豐遊艇在做網站名稱然後一樣用遊艇租賃作為選項那針對這樣子的事情其實我們一樣看到就它一樣可以挑選船什麼狂歡之舞五號狂歡之舞一號璀璨之翼請問這些部分這三艘船哪一艘是遊艇"},{"start":73.203,"end":83.931,"text":"我想這個案子應該是只要是遊艇應該就可以出租了我們這個案子處理的是他宣稱他是最大他的不實的地方是在於他對外所以他是遊艇所以你們認為他是遊艇我想這個"},{"start":89.993,"end":101.639,"text":"載客小船客船還有娛樂漁船這個不包括其中不包括這個算是遊艇嗎這個不包括遊艇對所以你們罰他你說只是廣告不實還是因為他也不符合遊艇相關的一個規定"},{"start":104.073,"end":121.421,"text":"我們主要是針對它的廣告的不實那顯然你們在開罰當中的時候可能也還沒有很落實因為我們如果針對是遊艇的時候它必須要有驗船的一個那個許可的核可你知道這個事情嗎那顯然它到底有沒有你知不知道我們請處長來說明一下是"},{"start":128.064,"end":146.084,"text":"跟委員報告齁這個案子呢因為他當時的廣告的宣稱是說全台最大遊艇活動遊艇租賃所以其實這家公司呢雖然他當時營運的有一些是所以你覺得他把最大拿掉就合規合法了你的意思是這樣子嗎"},{"start":150.269,"end":160.28,"text":"那你們再回去稍微查一下就是說它這個部分 因為我們看到的情況它就是載客小船嘛 客船然後漁船 漁樂漁船"},{"start":162.362,"end":182.265,"text":"這些都不是遊艇喔所以你們如果說當時只是因為他寫了最大這兩個字你們開罰他五萬塊錢然後感覺他還是在繼續那我在想說針對這個部分你們回去稍微再去研究一下後續狀態再給本席一個很清楚的狀態到底是開罰最大以外他到底是不是合規的遊艇公司好不好"},{"start":183.69,"end":205.741,"text":"我們這個部分會再了解那跟我們報告他主要因為他是做租賃所以他是說他是可以去租遊艇來做租賃的理解那他到底有沒有所以我才問你說狂歡151號是不是遊艇嗎他上面網站他們都可以直接選擇你現在跟我爭辯這狀態他到底是不是嗎你們都還不確定的時候你在跟我爭辯這事情我們會去了解"},{"start":206.621,"end":229.375,"text":"OK好那接下來我想問一下就是代理主委因為在這一次的那個公平會委員的人事同意權當中的時候我們看到了就是我們前主委他之所以沒有過關很大一個部分是因為在2022年公平會有條件通過全年併購大論發案件的時候那麼有委員在"},{"start":230.896,"end":255.289,"text":"會議當中要求全聯每年要捐3億元贊助活動那當時前主委的時候他身為在現場他沒有表示任何的意見而你會順利通過是因為有黨團他覺得你很有擔當你坦承這件事情屬實那麼也表示自己當時有提醒有違規之餘"},{"start":257.59,"end":284.14,"text":"詳細的狀態是不是這樣子是這樣子是這樣子喔OK那我想請教一下那現在因為你順利通過這個就是人事統一權的審查你現在是代理主委那對於這件事情當時顯然你都認為有違規之餘的情況的時候那現在你身為公平會的代理主委的時候你針對這件案子你覺得有沒有要重新調查的一個必要"},{"start":284.58,"end":302.234,"text":"就如同在上一次那個場合我所講的我是認為那個可能有一些疑慮那其他因為我們是一個獨立機關其他委員都同樣有發言的權利跟做表決的權利那顯然也許別的委員他有一些不同的考慮他的認知也許跟我不一樣所以到最後多數決就通過所以"},{"start":302.614,"end":317.47,"text":"那這個案子既然已經通過那事實上當事人也沒有針對再提起所謂的一個救濟的程序那另外對於公益捐款這件事情其實全能本身他是主動就一開始的申請的時候就主動說他們可以做一個公益捐款"},{"start":318.07,"end":336.492,"text":"我看到你們當時的一個新聞稿當中因為他有提到有七大條件其實這邊裡面有一個部分他特別提到你們特別提到說就全聯他自行承諾可是我們看到如果說回歸到你那過程當中的時候就有委員要求他每年繳3億的時候"},{"start":338.634,"end":354.008,"text":"那這樣子才通過那當然這樣子有很多人的討論所以我本身要問的狀態是當你現在變成代理主委的時候你對於那過程當中是不是有一些行政上面的不夠完善的地方那我們這邊公平會這邊能夠做什麼"},{"start":358.749,"end":378.025,"text":"我想這個案子就如同剛剛跟委員報告因為這個案子已經基本上本質上就是已經確定通過然後當事人也沒有爭執那公益捐款的部分當事人也承諾也繼續持續在捐款所以我們就基於這個案件的法律上的安定性跟確定性來講我們覺得這個案子似乎也沒有再重啟這個調查的程序了"},{"start":378.385,"end":399.005,"text":"OK 所以我可以這麼理解說除非全聯他們再提出來否則公評會這邊不會自己再重啟這個部分的調查是這樣的意思嗎目前我們沒有打算重啟調查OK 理解因為我在想說他這當中有一些邏輯上的問題因為當時如果有委員提出這樣的一個公益捐款的部分的時候要求廠商去做"},{"start":399.545,"end":424.585,"text":"才能夠讓他去併購另外一家公司那當時顯然是這樣子的方式條件出去那我看到你們這邊他說用自行承諾的方式顯然這過程當中可能就是公平會也認為當中有一些些的違規的一些疑慮所以在字眼上面也不是這麼用可是我認為當你現在變成代理主委的時候我覺得對於以後碰到這樣的問題可能要特別的一個謹慎是"},{"start":426.286,"end":443.735,"text":"因為這個事情在這一次的一個人事同意權就反映出來了到底誰真的擔當有誠實那就會反映在後續的狀態所以我們後續會注意OK我接下來想問一下主委你知道Google現在占台灣的一個搜尋市場大概有多大"},{"start":445.755,"end":467.161,"text":"相關的大概七成左右七成喔我的數字在2023年開始的時候台灣使用Google的搜尋女性人數大概將近九成那這也許有一些統計上面的一些問題那我是不管七成或九成就表示它很大我們之前在討論就是Uber Eats要併Foodpanda的時候"},{"start":468.43,"end":484.725,"text":"他們併完之後的市場可能有七八成的時候我們認為就覺得不適合那現在Google他不管是八成九成的狀態表示他其實是台灣其實是非常壟斷的那我再往下看一個資料我會去整理了這個部分這幾年"},{"start":487.409,"end":507.267,"text":"全球很多很多的國家包括歐盟都對於Google違反競爭的相關的一個行為有很多很多的一個處分那我整理出了十個樣態包括說在搜尋結果當中偏袒自家的服務要求手機廠商優先"},{"start":509.028,"end":523.298,"text":"事先要預先安裝Google旗下的一個服務等等有十種的樣態包括美國自己都認為要求iPhone手機跟其他瀏覽器廠開發商跟Android的智能手機製造商"},{"start":524.119,"end":543.106,"text":"跟無線運營商都要先預設Google搜尋引擎都是有問題的所以處分Google的包括美國包括歐盟包括印度包括俄羅斯包括日本包括南韓包括法國加拿大澳洲都處理了台灣這邊要怎麼做"},{"start":544.647,"end":566.005,"text":"剛剛委員談了幾個案例我們都有在注意那預載的案子事實上我們也處理過那只是說處理的結論跟別的國家不太一樣因為我們做過市場調查因為我們在公平法裡面獨佔當然是一個事實但是獨佔並不當然會違法我們要看他的行為有沒有濫用這個力量去行為所以這十個樣態的時候包括了說"},{"start":568.683,"end":577.019,"text":"偏滿自家的一個服務包括了一個預設這個事情包括了比方說其他的"},{"start":578.556,"end":598.827,"text":"新聞的註冊權相關的使用包括了捆綁各種的廣告科技工具等等這十種樣態的時候我們公平會這邊都有去檢討過嗎我們有做過市場的調查就是我們特別去問說這類型的行為在台灣的市場業者之間是不是的確也存在類似的問題"},{"start":599.767,"end":616.854,"text":"那基本上我們所做的調查結果基本上回來的表示都是說台灣比較沒有這方面的問題針對這個部分我想你知事後給我一個很清楚狀態我們公評會怎麼去看待Google這個事情那對於Google壟斷的事情我們有沒有"},{"start":617.794,"end":638.999,"text":"之後會不會有一些具體的做法還是你之前的那個調查結果之後就是未來確保Google接下來就可以反風順還是我們會不會有一些相關的數位市場的一個競爭法案的提出我們會持續的觀察數位市場的演變啊對還是會觀察就是我們這本來就是我們在"},{"start":641.84,"end":668.573,"text":"處理獨佔力量用聯合行為各方面我們都會持續去處理所以公民會現在有沒有打算要擬一個數位市場競爭法案目前我們是從強化數位執法能力來著手目前沒有規劃要特別針對一個專法來那麼針對這個部分跟Google你們之前研討的狀態還有針對世界其他的一個國家針對這十種Google的樣態你們去做一個分析之後再給本辦公室一個很清楚的一個說明是好不好是 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝好"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":276,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時4分）謝謝主席，我想請一下陳志民代理主委。"],["主席：好，請主委。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：鄭委員早。"],["鄭委員正鈐：代理主委好。我看到今年1月15日公平會發布一則新聞，說有一家叫海風公司的載客小船被罰了5萬塊，不知道代理主委知不知道這件事情？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我知道。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，我們隔了2個月再上網查詢，發現這家公司還是一樣用「海風遊艇」做為網站名稱，而且一樣以「遊艇租賃」做為選項，一樣可以挑選船型，包括狂歡之舞1號、狂歡之舞5號和璀璨之翼，請問這3艘船哪一艘是遊艇？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我想這個案子應該……只要是遊艇，應該就可以出租啦！我們這個案子處理的是它宣稱自己是「最大」，它不實的地方是在於對外宣稱……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以它是遊艇？它不是……所以你們認為它是遊艇？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我想這個載客小船、客船還有娛樂漁船，其中不包括遊艇。"],["鄭委員正鈐：這個算是遊艇嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：這個不包括遊艇。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以你們罰它，你說只是廣告不實，還是因為它也不符合遊艇的相關規定？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們主要是針對它的廣告不實。"],["鄭委員正鈐：那麼顯然你們在開罰當中可能也還沒有很落實，因為如果是針對遊艇的話，必須要有驗船的核可，你知道這個事情嘛！那它到底有沒有？你知不知道？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我請處長來說明。"],["沈處長麗玉：跟委員報告，這個案子因為它當時廣告是宣稱「全台最大遊艇活動公司」、「全台最大遊艇租賃公司」……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解、理解。"],["沈處長麗玉：所以其實這家公司雖然當時營運的有一些是……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以你覺得它把「最大」拿掉就合規、合法了，你的意思是這樣子嗎？"],["沈處長麗玉：我們當時在……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，你回去再稍微查一下，因為根據我們看到的情況，它就是載客小船，包括客船和娛樂漁船，這些都不是遊艇喔！所以如果你們當時只是因為它寫了「最大」這兩個字而開罰它5萬塊錢，然後感覺他們還是這樣繼續在營業，我是希望你們回去之後，針對這個部分稍微研究一下它後續的狀態，再跟本席清楚說明除了針對「最大」開罰以外，它到底是不是合規的遊艇公司，好不好？"],["沈處長麗玉：是，這個部分我們會再瞭解，但是跟委員報告，因為它主要是做租賃，所以它是可以去租遊艇來做租賃的這個服務。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，那它到底有沒有？所以我才問你……"],["沈處長麗玉：它是可以這樣做的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以我才問你狂歡之舞1號是不是遊艇嘛！"],["沈處長麗玉：好，這方面我們來……"],["鄭委員正鈐：在網站上面都可以直接選擇，你現在跟我爭辯這個狀態！它到底是不是嘛！你們都還不確定的時候，你在跟我爭辯這件事情！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們會去瞭解。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好。","接下來我想問一下代理主委，在這次處理公平會委員人事同意權案當中，我們看到前主委之所以沒有過關，很大一個部分是因為在2022年公平會有條件通過全聯併購大潤發案件的時候，有委員在會議當中要求全聯每年要捐3億元贊助活動，當時在場的前主委沒有表示任何意見，而你會順利通過，是因為有黨團覺得你很有擔當，你坦承這件事情屬實，也表示自己當時有提醒這樣有違規之虞，詳細的狀態是不是這樣子？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是這樣子。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是這樣子呴？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：嗯。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，那我想請教一下，因為你順利通過人事同意權的審查，現在是代理主委，對於這件事情，你當時都認為顯然有違規之虞，現在你身為公平會的代理主委，針對這個案子，你認為有沒有重新調查的必要？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：就如同在上次那個場合我所講的，我是認為那可能有一些疑慮，但因為我們是一個獨立機關，其他委員同樣有發言跟表決的權利，顯然也許別的委員有一些不同的考慮，他的認知也許跟我不一樣，所以到最後多數決就通過了。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：這個案子既然已經通過了，事實上當事人也沒有針對這個部分再提起所謂的救濟程序，另外，對於公益捐款這件事情，其實全聯本身一開始申請的時候就主動說他們可以做公益捐款，所以……"],["鄭委員正鈐：我看到你們當時的新聞稿當中有提到七大條件，還特別提到全聯「自行承諾」，可是回歸到那個過程當中，是有委員要求他們每年繳3億元才通過，那當然就會有很多討論。所以本席要問的是，當你變成代理主委的時候，對於那個過程當中是不是有一些行政上面不夠完善的地方，公平會這邊能夠做什麼？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我想這個案子就如同剛剛跟委員報告，因為這個案子基本上、本質上就是已經確定通過，當事人也沒有爭執，公益捐款的部分，當事人也承諾，也繼續、持續在捐款，所以我們就基於這個案件法律上的安定性跟確定性來講，我們覺得這個案子似乎也沒有再重啟調查的程序。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以我可以這麼理解，除非全聯他們再提出來，否則公平會這邊不會自己再重啟這個部分的調查，是這樣意思嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：目前我們沒有打算重啟調查。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，因為我在想它這當中有一些邏輯上問題，因為當時如果有委員提出這樣一個公益捐款的部分時，要求廠商去做，才能夠讓它去併購另外一家公司，當時顯然是這樣子的方式、條件出去，我看到你們這邊，它說用自行承諾的方式，顯然這過程當中，可能公平會也認為這當中有一些些違規的疑慮，所以在字眼上面也不是這麼用。可是我認為當你現在變成代理主委的時候，我覺得對於以後碰到這樣的問題，可能要特別的謹慎。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為這個事情在這一次的人事同意權就反映出來了，到底誰真的擔當、有誠實，那就會反映在這後續的狀態。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是，我們後續會注意。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。我接下來想問一下，主委你知道Google現在占臺灣搜尋市場大概有多大？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：大概七成左右。"],["鄭委員正鈐：七成？我的數字在2023年開始的時候，臺灣使用Google的搜尋引擎人數大概將近九成，這也許有一些統計上面的問題，我覺得不管七成或九成，就表示它很大，我們之前在討論Uber Eats要併foodpanda的時候，他們併完之後的市場可能有七、八成，我們就覺得不適合，現在Google它不管是八成、九成的狀態，表示它在臺灣其實是非常壟斷的。","我再往下看一個資料，我整理了這個部分，這幾年全球很多、很多的國家，包括歐盟都對於Google違反競爭的相關行為有很多、很多的處分，我整理出了十個樣態，包括在搜尋結果當中偏袒自家的服務，要求手機廠商要預先安裝Google旗下的服務等等，有十種的樣態，包括美國自己都認為要求iPhone手機、其他瀏覽器開發商、Android的智能手機製造商跟無線營運商都要先預設Google搜尋引擎是有問題的，所以處分Google的包括美國，包括歐盟，包括印度，包括俄羅斯，包括日本，包括南韓，包括法國、加拿大、澳洲都處理了，臺灣這邊要怎麼做？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：剛剛委員談了幾個案例，我們都有在注意，預載的案子，事實上我們也處理過，只是處理的結論跟別的國家不太一樣，我們做過市場調查，因為我們在公平法裡面獨占當然是一個事實，但是獨占並不當然會違法，我們要看它的行為，有沒有濫用這個力量去行為。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以這十個樣態，包括了偏袒自家的服務，包括了預設搜尋引擎，包括了比方其他新聞著作權相關的使用，包括了捆綁各種廣告科技工具等等，這十種樣態，我們公平會這邊都有去檢討過嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們有做過市場的調查，就是我們有特別去問這類型的行為在臺灣的市場，業者之間是不是的確也存在類似的問題，我們所做的調查結果，基本上回來的結果表示都是臺灣比較沒有這方面的問題。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。針對這個部分，我想你事後給我一個很清楚狀態，我們公平會怎麼去看待Google這個事情，對於Google壟斷的事情，我們之後會不會有一些具體的作法？還是你之前的調查結果就是未來確保Google接下來就可以一帆風順？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：沒有、沒有。"],["鄭委員正鈐：還是我們會不會有一些相關數位市場競爭法案的提出？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們會持續觀察數位市場的演變，還是會觀察數位市場，這本來就是我們在處理獨占濫用、聯合行為各方面，我們都會持續注意。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以公平會現在有沒有打算要擬一個數位市場競爭法案？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：目前我們是從強化數位執法能力來著手，目前沒有規劃要特別針對一個專法來制定。"],["鄭委員正鈐：那麼針對Google這個部分，你們之前研討的狀態，還有世界其他的國家針對這十種Google的樣態，你們去做一個分析之後，再給本辦公室一個很清楚的說明，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是，謝謝委員。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員。","我們下一位請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-2","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳超明","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","陳培瑜"],"page_start":121,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請公平交易委員會代理主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00003"}}}