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{\"word\": \"商\", \"start\": 60.722, \"end\": 61.422, \"score\": 0.764}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 61.422, \"end\": 61.542, \"score\": 0.726}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 61.542, \"end\": 61.662, \"score\": 0.647}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 61.662, \"end\": 61.682, \"score\": 0.21}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 61.682, \"end\": 61.782, \"score\": 0.764}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 61.782, \"end\": 61.802, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 61.802, \"end\": 61.982, \"score\": 0.705}, {\"word\": \"符\", \"start\": 61.982, \"end\": 62.102, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 62.102, \"end\": 62.242, \"score\": 0.694}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 62.242, \"end\": 62.503, \"score\": 0.753}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 62.503, \"end\": 63.343, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"範\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 63.343, \"end\": 63.463, \"score\": 0.686}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 63.463, \"end\": 63.823, \"score\": 0.759}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 63.823, \"end\": 64.263, \"score\": 0.732}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 64.263, \"end\": 64.363, \"score\": 0.735}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 64.363, \"end\": 64.383, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 64.383, \"end\": 64.544, \"score\": 0.677}, {\"word\": \"符\", \"start\": 64.544, \"end\": 64.664, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 64.664, \"end\": 65.304, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"範\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 65.304, \"end\": 65.664, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 65.664, \"end\": 65.784, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 65.784, \"end\": 66.024, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 66.024, \"end\": 66.264, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 66.264, \"end\": 66.605, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 66.605, \"end\": 66.785, \"score\": 0.705}, 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\"關\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 75.649, \"end\": 75.93, \"score\": 0.731}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 75.93, \"end\": 76.43, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"物\", \"start\": 76.43, \"end\": 76.59, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"流\", \"start\": 76.59, \"end\": 76.87, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 76.87, \"end\": 77.03, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 77.03, \"end\": 77.59, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 77.59, \"end\": 77.73, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 77.73, \"end\": 78.591, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 78.591, \"end\": 78.811, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 78.811, \"end\": 78.891, \"score\": 0.622}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 78.891, \"end\": 79.011, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 79.011, \"end\": 79.131, \"score\": 0.542}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 79.131, \"end\": 79.331, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 79.331, \"end\": 79.671, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 79.671, \"end\": 79.832, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 79.832, \"end\": 79.952, \"score\": 0.71}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 79.952, \"end\": 80.052, \"score\": 0.6}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 80.052, \"end\": 80.392, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 80.392, \"end\": 80.512, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 80.512, \"end\": 80.752, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 80.752, \"end\": 81.012, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"零\", \"start\": 81.012, \"end\": 81.232, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 81.232, \"end\": 81.673, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 81.673, \"end\": 81.873, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 81.873, \"end\": 82.013, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 82.013, \"end\": 82.193, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 82.193, \"end\": 82.333, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"類\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 82.333, \"end\": 82.913, \"score\": 0.715}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 82.913, \"end\": 83.073, \"score\": 0.774}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 83.073, \"end\": 83.193, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 83.193, \"end\": 83.273, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 83.273, \"end\": 83.353, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 83.353, \"end\": 83.373, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"採\"}, {\"word\": \"購\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 83.373, \"end\": 83.433, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 83.433, \"end\": 83.453, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 84.754, \"end\": 103.516, \"text\": \"那我知道目前我們稍微看了一下很多都是跟關鼓有關的那可能不是什麼大問題但因為之前因為中科院的事情我們有時候會層層的外包那外包到一些下游的一些廠商的時候可能又會出現一些疑慮所以這方面可能要提醒這個網友要多注意這個部分我就不詢問\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 84.754, \"end\": 84.874, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 84.874, \"end\": 85.055, \"score\": 0.693}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 85.055, \"end\": 85.215, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 85.215, \"end\": 85.355, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 85.355, \"end\": 85.535, \"score\": 0.732}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 85.535, \"end\": 85.735, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 85.735, \"end\": 86.116, \"score\": 0.766}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"稍\", \"start\": 86.116, \"end\": 86.256, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"微\", \"start\": 86.256, \"end\": 86.396, \"score\": 0.583}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 86.396, \"end\": 86.516, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 86.516, \"end\": 86.656, \"score\": 0.59}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 86.656, \"end\": 86.737, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 86.737, \"end\": 87.157, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 87.157, \"end\": 87.337, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 87.337, \"end\": 87.497, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 87.497, \"end\": 87.638, \"score\": 0.699}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 87.638, \"end\": 87.778, \"score\": 0.743}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 87.778, \"end\": 88.158, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"鼓\", \"start\": 88.158, \"end\": 88.338, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 88.338, \"end\": 88.739, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 88.739, \"end\": 89.28, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 89.28, \"end\": 89.44, \"score\": 0.528}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 89.44, \"end\": 89.54, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 89.54, \"end\": 89.76, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 89.76, \"end\": 89.86, \"score\": 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\"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 98.931, \"end\": 99.011, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 99.011, \"end\": 99.351, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"疑\", \"start\": 99.351, \"end\": 99.551, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"慮\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 99.551, \"end\": 100.252, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 100.252, \"end\": 100.493, \"score\": 0.699}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 100.493, \"end\": 100.613, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 100.613, \"end\": 100.873, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 100.873, \"end\": 100.973, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 100.973, \"end\": 101.073, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 101.073, \"end\": 101.213, \"score\": 0.603}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 101.213, \"end\": 101.353, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"醒\", \"start\": 101.353, \"end\": 101.874, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"網\"}, {\"word\": \"友\", \"start\": 101.874, \"end\": 101.954, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 101.954, \"end\": 102.074, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 102.074, \"end\": 102.275, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"注\", \"start\": 102.275, \"end\": 102.475, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 102.475, \"end\": 103.075, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 103.075, \"end\": 103.196, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 103.196, \"end\": 103.276, \"score\": 0.771}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 103.276, \"end\": 103.376, \"score\": 0.453}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 103.376, \"end\": 103.496, \"score\": 0.774}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 103.496, \"end\": 103.516, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}]}, {\"start\": 104.497, \"end\": 119.623, \"text\": \"但接下來就是這一個飛行就是人員安全的問題因為最近剛好爆發這樣的一個事件就是又是一個退役軍官然後被中國吸收那我當然知道因為退役軍官現在蠻多都是跟退伏有關我這一次也跟退伏會討論了這個議題\", 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0.932}, {\"word\": \"構\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 433.552, \"end\": 433.572, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 435.074, \"end\": 463.821, \"text\": \"因為我們常常講這個場觀學啦那國防部現在看起來就是跟這個民間讓他們來然後來參與等等之類的這方面應該已經在進行了那學的部分呢就是說針對大學因為我為什麼會這樣問就是因為我這一次去在跟他們的一些創新小子在交流的時候他說他們會把一些比如說他們遇到的問題直接帶到用比喻上來講吧比如說帶到清大教大帶到台大的課堂上但是那個課堂是限制來上課的人而且那些上課的人還是有來做一些\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 435.074, \"end\": 435.294, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 435.294, \"end\": 435.434, \"score\": 0.765}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 435.434, \"end\": 436.134, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 436.134, \"end\": 436.294, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"觀\"}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 436.294, \"end\": 436.654, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 436.654, \"end\": 437.054, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 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00:00:53,977\n接下來這一個裁劃法昨天就已經確定復議已經沒有通過所以裁劃法對國防的衝擊應該會很大那這方面國防部要先做好一些準備我覺得這個大概是沒有辦法的事情所以我今天是最主要針對另外三點來詢問最主要就是人流物流跟資訊這三個相關\n\n4\n00:00:55,859 --> 00:01:23,453\n那第一個就是這一個物料的安全就是說我們今天下游的廠商他到底有沒有符合相關的規範或者說資安有沒有符合規範人員的安全我覺得這三個大概是最主要的部分預算現在就是等於是沒有辦法掌控在國防部的手上那第一個我想問一下就是說這一個關於這一個物流上的問題就是說剛剛其實也都有提到就是說我們現在裡面的這些零件什麼等等之類的有些可能是採購什麼的\n\n5\n00:01:24,754 --> 00:01:43,516\n那我知道目前我們稍微看了一下很多都是跟關鼓有關的那可能不是什麼大問題但因為之前因為中科院的事情我們有時候會層層的外包那外包到一些下游的一些廠商的時候可能又會出現一些疑慮所以這方面可能要提醒這個網友要多注意這個部分我就不詢問\n\n6\n00:01:44,497 --> 00:01:59,623\n但接下來就是這一個飛行就是人員安全的問題因為最近剛好爆發這樣的一個事件就是又是一個退役軍官然後被中國吸收那我當然知道因為退役軍官現在蠻多都是跟退伏有關我這一次也跟退伏會討論了這個議題\n\n7\n00:02:01,304 --> 00:02:21,329\n那因為退府那邊能夠做的都是一些福利相關的就是說你福利要不要給他減啊什麼等等之類的一些懲罰的措施那現在以國防部的立場來講就是這種不斷的利用這些退休的軍官去接觸現役的或者說去接觸現有的機密目前來講還有什麼更精進的措施\n\n8\n00:02:22,815 --> 00:02:42,021\n我想除了要落實反侵犯教育之外,我們當然也要做好涉密人員的查核就是我們現在已經在增加我們整個保防單位,特別是軍事安全總隊的原額然後我們也要建立國境人員揭秘資格認證的一個機制\n\n9\n00:02:44,202 --> 00:03:09,871\n也就是說過去我們可能會說那你到一定的階級我們在做這個特殊查核可是我們現在主要的重點就是說跟美國一樣就是說我們不分階級我們按照他涉密的這個等級然後這個來進行這個相關的一個不同深度的一個查核那你要接受這樣子的一個\n\n10\n00:03:10,911 --> 00:03:25,584\n查核通過你才能夠接觸這樣的一個密診這樣子那這個部分我們當然還要再更多的努力這樣子有這個我覺得是一個好的方向就是說呢是\n\n11\n00:03:26,144 --> 00:03:50,868\n不只是對人我們對事的方面對於加密等級就是說哪些事情它的風險等級是多高然後誰接觸然後用這樣的方式來做規範那人員的部分呢像前陣子我在質詢的時候有問過這些解放軍相關的學校等等之類的那我記得上禮拜我已經跟這個人事室也已經談過了就是說對於這些人員進來的一些審核應該怎麼做所以這個我就不多問因為這個私底下已經討論完畢那我這邊還要再問一下就是\n\n12\n00:03:54,389 --> 00:04:16,200\n人員的部分大概是剛剛部長講的這一些但再來就是資訊的部分因為剛剛前面有蠻多人問過就是他把這一個手機這個掉了嘛對不對所以呢裡面的一些資訊看起來有外洩雖然這個外洩的內容並不是一個直接的國防機密但我想問的事情是因為看起來他可能是自己的手機他是那個BYOD的這個手機\n\n13\n00:04:17,421 --> 00:04:41,727\n那剛剛部長我剛剛聽到是回答楚音委員的時候有提到MDM的機制啦所以讓他在拍照的時候可能沒有辦法拍到一些重要的照片但因為他可能是自己的裝置所以他自己的裝置他雖然可能沒有拍到這些照片可是他文字上啊什麼等等之類的描述啊所以我想問一下就是說在未來MDM這個安裝上面有沒有可能就是說有這一個遠端可以Wipe啦\n\n14\n00:04:42,327 --> 00:04:56,752\n就是說因為畢竟手機在什麼位置是比較容易被研判那如果說它今天被留到中國有沒有可能這種遠端直接磨除即使是它自己的裝置有這樣的可能嗎這個是不是要請這個同事沒有問題\n\n15\n00:04:58,432 --> 00:05:12,745\n這個東西我們有在努力看要怎麼執行來做從遠端來監控因為我們事實上本來24小時都有在監控任何的我們的實體的網路上的內容委員提到這個我們下去努力看看\n\n16\n00:05:13,986 --> 00:05:33,461\n監控到手機的部分也能從遠端來監控我們來下去研究看看對對因為我覺得如果說就單純的假如說就不是針對內容但發現它的移動的位置因為它訊號嘛它可能在中國如果遠端可以抹除的話可能更快因為畢竟雖然照片已經封住了就是有不讓它拍照但有時候還是有文字描述啊等等之類的\n\n17\n00:05:33,561 --> 00:05:50,929\n我們如果上雲端的這些部分的內容,我們事實上都可以這樣來做,這個機制我們是有的。對,雲端的可以,就是要在本機上面。對,本機上面我們再跟外界來聯絡看看怎麼來執行,是有最好的方法。好,這是新型態的,不過這個當然講到底也是需要預算的。\n\n18\n00:05:52,330 --> 00:06:06,745\n這個有時候現在是很困擾就是說現在敵方的威脅越來越多外洩的方式也會越來越多但是這些其實都是需要預算來執行所以這個不是國防部的問題這是其他人的問題這我就不多說那接下來我想因為還有一點時間我來問一下這個創新小組\n\n19\n00:06:09,528 --> 00:06:37,900\n那創新小組呢在上次在2月24的時候有特別提到智慧化的倉儲管理啊這個衛星影像AI自動的辨識啊擴增實際的智慧作戰系統我想知道現在這個發展的狀況如何然後以及就是因為我剛好在前陣子去美國的時候我有特別又去考察了一下他們的這個創新小組怎麼做啦所以呢我想先知道現在國防部目前2月24講的這些東西目前的進度是如何\n\n20\n00:06:38,539 --> 00:06:44,804\n我們現在公開徵集以後邀請民間企業提供企劃書在3月10號應該是已經辦了說明會然後有115家的廠商參與算是相當的熱烈因為我們在\n\n21\n00:06:57,654 --> 00:07:13,572\n發佈這個公開徵集之前我們就有進行相關商情的蒐集大概理解這個民間有相關成熟的一些技術所以我們會說明之後希望透過這些民間成熟技術引進能夠快速來建構這樣子\n\n22\n00:07:15,074 --> 00:07:43,821\n因為我們常常講這個場觀學啦那國防部現在看起來就是跟這個民間讓他們來然後來參與等等之類的這方面應該已經在進行了那學的部分呢就是說針對大學因為我為什麼會這樣問就是因為我這一次去在跟他們的一些創新小子在交流的時候他說他們會把一些比如說他們遇到的問題直接帶到用比喻上來講吧比如說帶到清大教大帶到台大的課堂上但是那個課堂是限制來上課的人而且那些上課的人還是有來做一些\n\n23\n00:07:44,621 --> 00:08:06,611\n背景審查的啦因為不能夠讓他隨意接觸一些可能比較機密不一定要說機密但可能是一些比較機密的資料然後讓他們去嘗試解決這個他們所就是國防部所遇到的問題那我甚至呢在這一次他們相關的一些文件裡面有看到就是說他們除了跟自己的大學合作之外甚至有一些跨國跟一些民主盟友的一些大學的合作\n\n24\n00:08:07,091 --> 00:08:29,003\n那我知道國防大學當然是重中之重啦但我想知道就是說以學的方面現在如果說以創新小組的立場有沒有可能會去跟一些台灣其他的學校然後做這些相關的交流以及請他們來做一些他們叫做TechnologicalSurprise啦就是說他們有比較創新的方式解決現在國防部遇到的一些小的技術的問題\n\n25\n00:08:30,548 --> 00:08:56,297\n跟委員報告因為我們最近也了解就是說美國他會跟特定的學校然後成立一個實驗室比如說MIT成立一個實驗室那跟這個實驗室來進行一些相關特定的一些合作那我們現在的方式當然是比較透過這個學研中心也就是說我們會有差不多七大學研中心然後\n\n26\n00:08:57,757 --> 00:09:25,799\n我們大概會100多今年是127個案子那我們根據這127個案子我們投入那當然這個是TIR5以下的這個部分那有沒有要特定針對說哪一個學校特定的一個強項然後來跟他進行更成熟的這個這個部分我想我們還需要研議那這個部分\n\n27\n00:09:27,782 --> 00:09:48,668\n至少現在還沒有啦那要怎麼樣來那這個就如你剛講的如果是有相關涉及到說比如說要跟我們中科院或者相關的合作那涉及到機敏的話那如何確保這個機敏的資料不會外洩這當然也是一個課題啦對因為倒過來講就是說雖然多合作是好的\n\n28\n00:09:49,088 --> 00:10:01,402\n但總是會有一些安全上的疑慮那我剛前面有一個還沒問到就CMNC就是說最近美國國防部已經去要求就是說更多的這個更高的這些資安規範那個我就可能等到下一次相關議題的時候我再來詢問因為時間已經到了好謝謝謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n512\t1076\t謝謝主席 有請部長 謝謝\n14807\t33478\t因為今天是跟國際國造有關我們有稍微整理一下因為現在整體的國際國造當然對台灣來講是非常的重要我稍微盤點了四個我們大概現在會比較面臨的一些不是問題就是說應該要注意的事項當然第一個就是預算要夠這是一定的\n34338\t53977\t接下來這一個裁劃法昨天就已經確定復議已經沒有通過所以裁劃法對國防的衝擊應該會很大那這方面國防部要先做好一些準備我覺得這個大概是沒有辦法的事情所以我今天是最主要針對另外三點來詢問最主要就是人流物流跟資訊這三個相關\n55859\t83453\t那第一個就是這一個物料的安全就是說我們今天下游的廠商他到底有沒有符合相關的規範或者說資安有沒有符合規範人員的安全我覺得這三個大概是最主要的部分預算現在就是等於是沒有辦法掌控在國防部的手上那第一個我想問一下就是說這一個關於這一個物流上的問題就是說剛剛其實也都有提到就是說我們現在裡面的這些零件什麼等等之類的有些可能是採購什麼的\n84754\t103516\t那我知道目前我們稍微看了一下很多都是跟關鼓有關的那可能不是什麼大問題但因為之前因為中科院的事情我們有時候會層層的外包那外包到一些下游的一些廠商的時候可能又會出現一些疑慮所以這方面可能要提醒這個網友要多注意這個部分我就不詢問\n104497\t119623\t但接下來就是這一個飛行就是人員安全的問題因為最近剛好爆發這樣的一個事件就是又是一個退役軍官然後被中國吸收那我當然知道因為退役軍官現在蠻多都是跟退伏有關我這一次也跟退伏會討論了這個議題\n121304\t141329\t那因為退府那邊能夠做的都是一些福利相關的就是說你福利要不要給他減啊什麼等等之類的一些懲罰的措施那現在以國防部的立場來講就是這種不斷的利用這些退休的軍官去接觸現役的或者說去接觸現有的機密目前來講還有什麼更精進的措施\n142815\t162021\t我想除了要落實反侵犯教育之外,我們當然也要做好涉密人員的查核就是我們現在已經在增加我們整個保防單位,特別是軍事安全總隊的原額然後我們也要建立國境人員揭秘資格認證的一個機制\n164202\t189871\t也就是說過去我們可能會說那你到一定的階級我們在做這個特殊查核可是我們現在主要的重點就是說跟美國一樣就是說我們不分階級我們按照他涉密的這個等級然後這個來進行這個相關的一個不同深度的一個查核那你要接受這樣子的一個\n190911\t205584\t查核通過你才能夠接觸這樣的一個密診這樣子那這個部分我們當然還要再更多的努力這樣子有這個我覺得是一個好的方向就是說呢是\n206144\t230868\t不只是對人 我們對事的方面對於加密等級就是說哪些事情它的風險等級是多高然後誰接觸然後用這樣的方式來做規範那人員的部分呢像前陣子我在質詢的時候有問過這些解放軍相關的學校等等之類的那我記得上禮拜我已經跟這個人事室也已經談過了就是說對於這些人員進來的一些審核應該怎麼做所以這個我就不多問因為這個私底下已經討論完畢那我這邊還要再問一下就是\n234389\t256200\t人員的部分大概是剛剛部長講的這一些但再來就是資訊的部分因為剛剛前面有蠻多人問過就是他把這一個手機這個掉了嘛 對不對所以呢裡面的一些資訊看起來有外洩雖然這個外洩的內容並不是一個直接的國防機密但我想問的事情是因為看起來他可能是自己的手機他是那個BYOD的這個手機\n257421\t281727\t那剛剛部長我剛剛聽到是回答楚音委員的時候有提到MDM的機制啦所以讓他在拍照的時候可能沒有辦法拍到一些重要的照片但因為他可能是自己的裝置所以他自己的裝置他雖然可能沒有拍到這些照片可是他文字上啊什麼等等之類的描述啊所以我想問一下就是說在未來MDM這個安裝上面有沒有可能就是說有這一個遠端可以Wipe啦\n282327\t296752\t就是說因為畢竟手機在什麼位置是比較容易被研判那如果說它今天被留到中國有沒有可能這種遠端直接磨除即使是它自己的裝置有這樣的可能嗎這個是不是要請這個同事沒有問題\n298432\t312745\t這個東西我們有在努力看要怎麼執行來做從遠端來監控因為我們事實上本來24小時都有在監控任何的我們的實體的網路上的內容委員提到這個我們下去努力看看\n313986\t333461\t監控到手機的部分也能從遠端來監控我們來下去研究看看對對因為我覺得如果說就單純的假如說就不是針對內容但發現它的移動的位置因為它訊號嘛它可能在中國如果遠端可以抹除的話可能更快因為畢竟雖然照片已經封住了就是有不讓它拍照但有時候還是有文字描述啊等等之類的\n333561\t350929\t我們如果上雲端的這些部分的內容,我們事實上都可以這樣來做,這個機制我們是有的。對,雲端的可以,就是要在本機上面。對,本機上面我們再跟外界來聯絡看看怎麼來執行,是有最好的方法。好,這是新型態的,不過這個當然講到底也是需要預算的。\n352330\t366745\t這個有時候現在是很困擾就是說現在敵方的威脅越來越多外洩的方式也會越來越多但是這些其實都是需要預算來執行所以這個不是國防部的問題這是其他人的問題這我就不多說那接下來我想因為還有一點時間我來問一下這個創新小組\n369528\t397900\t那創新小組呢在上次在2月24的時候有特別提到智慧化的倉儲管理啊這個衛星影像AI自動的辨識啊擴增實際的智慧作戰系統我想知道現在這個發展的狀況如何然後以及就是因為我剛好在前陣子去美國的時候我有特別又去考察了一下他們的這個創新小組怎麼做啦所以呢我想先知道現在國防部目前2月24講的這些東西目前的進度是如何\n398539\t404804\t我們現在公開徵集以後邀請民間企業提供企劃書在3月10號應該是已經辦了說明會然後有115家的廠商參與算是相當的熱烈因為我們在\n417654\t433572\t發佈這個公開徵集之前我們就有進行相關商情的蒐集大概理解這個民間有相關成熟的一些技術所以我們會說明之後希望透過這些民間成熟技術引進能夠快速來建構這樣子\n435074\t463821\t因為我們常常講這個場觀學啦那國防部現在看起來就是跟這個民間讓他們來然後來參與等等之類的這方面應該已經在進行了那學的部分呢就是說針對大學因為我為什麼會這樣問就是因為我這一次去在跟他們的一些創新小子在交流的時候他說他們會把一些比如說他們遇到的問題直接帶到用比喻上來講吧比如說帶到清大教大帶到台大的課堂上但是那個課堂是限制來上課的人而且那些上課的人還是有來做一些\n464621\t486611\t背景審查的啦因為不能夠讓他隨意接觸一些可能比較機密不一定要說機密但可能是一些比較機密的資料然後讓他們去嘗試解決這個他們所就是國防部所遇到的問題那我甚至呢在這一次他們相關的一些文件裡面有看到就是說他們除了跟自己的大學合作之外甚至有一些跨國跟一些民主盟友的一些大學的合作\n487091\t509003\t那我知道國防大學當然是重中之重啦但我想知道就是說以學的方面現在如果說以創新小組的立場有沒有可能會去跟一些台灣其他的學校然後做這些相關的交流以及請他們來做一些他們叫做Technological Surprise啦就是說他們有比較創新的方式解決現在國防部遇到的一些小的技術的問題\n510548\t536297\t跟委員報告因為我們最近也了解就是說美國他會跟特定的學校然後成立一個實驗室比如說MIT成立一個實驗室那跟這個實驗室來進行一些相關特定的一些合作那我們現在的方式當然是比較透過這個學研中心也就是說我們會有差不多七大學研中心然後\n537757\t565799\t我們大概會100多今年是127個案子那我們根據這127個案子我們投入那當然這個是TIR5以下的這個部分那有沒有要特定針對說哪一個學校特定的一個強項然後來跟他進行更成熟的這個這個部分我想我們還需要研議那這個部分\n567782\t588668\t至少現在還沒有啦那要怎麼樣來那這個就如你剛講的如果是有相關涉及到說比如說要跟我們中科院或者相關的合作那涉及到機敏的話那如何確保這個機敏的資料不會外洩這當然也是一個課題啦對 因為倒過來講就是說雖然多合作是好的\n589088\t601402\t但總是會有一些安全上的疑慮那我剛前面有一個還沒問到就CMNC就是說最近美國國防部已經去要求就是說更多的這個更高的這些資安規範那個我就可能等到下一次相關議題的時候我再來詢問因為時間已經到了好 謝謝謝謝部長\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請部長 謝謝\n因為今天是跟國際國造有關我們有稍微整理一下因為現在整體的國際國造當然對台灣來講是非常的重要我稍微盤點了四個我們大概現在會比較面臨的一些不是問題就是說應該要注意的事項當然第一個就是預算要夠這是一定的\n接下來這一個裁劃法昨天就已經確定復議已經沒有通過所以裁劃法對國防的衝擊應該會很大那這方面國防部要先做好一些準備我覺得這個大概是沒有辦法的事情所以我今天是最主要針對另外三點來詢問最主要就是人流物流跟資訊這三個相關\n那第一個就是這一個物料的安全就是說我們今天下游的廠商他到底有沒有符合相關的規範或者說資安有沒有符合規範人員的安全我覺得這三個大概是最主要的部分預算現在就是等於是沒有辦法掌控在國防部的手上那第一個我想問一下就是說這一個關於這一個物流上的問題就是說剛剛其實也都有提到就是說我們現在裡面的這些零件什麼等等之類的有些可能是採購什麼的\n那我知道目前我們稍微看了一下很多都是跟關鼓有關的那可能不是什麼大問題但因為之前因為中科院的事情我們有時候會層層的外包那外包到一些下游的一些廠商的時候可能又會出現一些疑慮所以這方面可能要提醒這個網友要多注意這個部分我就不詢問\n但接下來就是這一個飛行就是人員安全的問題因為最近剛好爆發這樣的一個事件就是又是一個退役軍官然後被中國吸收那我當然知道因為退役軍官現在蠻多都是跟退伏有關我這一次也跟退伏會討論了這個議題\n那因為退府那邊能夠做的都是一些福利相關的就是說你福利要不要給他減啊什麼等等之類的一些懲罰的措施那現在以國防部的立場來講就是這種不斷的利用這些退休的軍官去接觸現役的或者說去接觸現有的機密目前來講還有什麼更精進的措施\n我想除了要落實反侵犯教育之外,我們當然也要做好涉密人員的查核就是我們現在已經在增加我們整個保防單位,特別是軍事安全總隊的原額然後我們也要建立國境人員揭秘資格認證的一個機制\n也就是說過去我們可能會說那你到一定的階級我們在做這個特殊查核可是我們現在主要的重點就是說跟美國一樣就是說我們不分階級我們按照他涉密的這個等級然後這個來進行這個相關的一個不同深度的一個查核那你要接受這樣子的一個\n查核通過你才能夠接觸這樣的一個密診這樣子那這個部分我們當然還要再更多的努力這樣子有這個我覺得是一個好的方向就是說呢是\n不只是對人 我們對事的方面對於加密等級就是說哪些事情它的風險等級是多高然後誰接觸然後用這樣的方式來做規範那人員的部分呢像前陣子我在質詢的時候有問過這些解放軍相關的學校等等之類的那我記得上禮拜我已經跟這個人事室也已經談過了就是說對於這些人員進來的一些審核應該怎麼做所以這個我就不多問因為這個私底下已經討論完畢那我這邊還要再問一下就是\n人員的部分大概是剛剛部長講的這一些但再來就是資訊的部分因為剛剛前面有蠻多人問過就是他把這一個手機這個掉了嘛 對不對所以呢裡面的一些資訊看起來有外洩雖然這個外洩的內容並不是一個直接的國防機密但我想問的事情是因為看起來他可能是自己的手機他是那個BYOD的這個手機\n那剛剛部長我剛剛聽到是回答楚音委員的時候有提到MDM的機制啦所以讓他在拍照的時候可能沒有辦法拍到一些重要的照片但因為他可能是自己的裝置所以他自己的裝置他雖然可能沒有拍到這些照片可是他文字上啊什麼等等之類的描述啊所以我想問一下就是說在未來MDM這個安裝上面有沒有可能就是說有這一個遠端可以Wipe啦\n就是說因為畢竟手機在什麼位置是比較容易被研判那如果說它今天被留到中國有沒有可能這種遠端直接磨除即使是它自己的裝置有這樣的可能嗎這個是不是要請這個同事沒有問題\n這個東西我們有在努力看要怎麼執行來做從遠端來監控因為我們事實上本來24小時都有在監控任何的我們的實體的網路上的內容委員提到這個我們下去努力看看\n監控到手機的部分也能從遠端來監控我們來下去研究看看對對因為我覺得如果說就單純的假如說就不是針對內容但發現它的移動的位置因為它訊號嘛它可能在中國如果遠端可以抹除的話可能更快因為畢竟雖然照片已經封住了就是有不讓它拍照但有時候還是有文字描述啊等等之類的\n我們如果上雲端的這些部分的內容,我們事實上都可以這樣來做,這個機制我們是有的。對,雲端的可以,就是要在本機上面。對,本機上面我們再跟外界來聯絡看看怎麼來執行,是有最好的方法。好,這是新型態的,不過這個當然講到底也是需要預算的。\n這個有時候現在是很困擾就是說現在敵方的威脅越來越多外洩的方式也會越來越多但是這些其實都是需要預算來執行所以這個不是國防部的問題這是其他人的問題這我就不多說那接下來我想因為還有一點時間我來問一下這個創新小組\n那創新小組呢在上次在2月24的時候有特別提到智慧化的倉儲管理啊這個衛星影像AI自動的辨識啊擴增實際的智慧作戰系統我想知道現在這個發展的狀況如何然後以及就是因為我剛好在前陣子去美國的時候我有特別又去考察了一下他們的這個創新小組怎麼做啦所以呢我想先知道現在國防部目前2月24講的這些東西目前的進度是如何\n我們現在公開徵集以後邀請民間企業提供企劃書在3月10號應該是已經辦了說明會然後有115家的廠商參與算是相當的熱烈因為我們在\n發佈這個公開徵集之前我們就有進行相關商情的蒐集大概理解這個民間有相關成熟的一些技術所以我們會說明之後希望透過這些民間成熟技術引進能夠快速來建構這樣子\n因為我們常常講這個場觀學啦那國防部現在看起來就是跟這個民間讓他們來然後來參與等等之類的這方面應該已經在進行了那學的部分呢就是說針對大學因為我為什麼會這樣問就是因為我這一次去在跟他們的一些創新小子在交流的時候他說他們會把一些比如說他們遇到的問題直接帶到用比喻上來講吧比如說帶到清大教大帶到台大的課堂上但是那個課堂是限制來上課的人而且那些上課的人還是有來做一些\n背景審查的啦因為不能夠讓他隨意接觸一些可能比較機密不一定要說機密但可能是一些比較機密的資料然後讓他們去嘗試解決這個他們所就是國防部所遇到的問題那我甚至呢在這一次他們相關的一些文件裡面有看到就是說他們除了跟自己的大學合作之外甚至有一些跨國跟一些民主盟友的一些大學的合作\n那我知道國防大學當然是重中之重啦但我想知道就是說以學的方面現在如果說以創新小組的立場有沒有可能會去跟一些台灣其他的學校然後做這些相關的交流以及請他們來做一些他們叫做Technological Surprise啦就是說他們有比較創新的方式解決現在國防部遇到的一些小的技術的問題\n跟委員報告因為我們最近也了解就是說美國他會跟特定的學校然後成立一個實驗室比如說MIT成立一個實驗室那跟這個實驗室來進行一些相關特定的一些合作那我們現在的方式當然是比較透過這個學研中心也就是說我們會有差不多七大學研中心然後\n我們大概會100多今年是127個案子那我們根據這127個案子我們投入那當然這個是TIR5以下的這個部分那有沒有要特定針對說哪一個學校特定的一個強項然後來跟他進行更成熟的這個這個部分我想我們還需要研議那這個部分\n至少現在還沒有啦那要怎麼樣來那這個就如你剛講的如果是有相關涉及到說比如說要跟我們中科院或者相關的合作那涉及到機敏的話那如何確保這個機敏的資料不會外洩這當然也是一個課題啦對 因為倒過來講就是說雖然多合作是好的\n但總是會有一些安全上的疑慮那我剛前面有一個還沒問到就CMNC就是說最近美國國防部已經去要求就是說更多的這個更高的這些資安規範那個我就可能等到下一次相關議題的時候我再來詢問因為時間已經到了好 謝謝謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.512 --> 00:01.076\n謝謝主席有請部長謝謝\n\n00:14.807 --> 00:33.478\n因為今天是跟國際國造有關我們有稍微整理一下因為現在整體的國際國造當然對台灣來講是非常的重要我稍微盤點了四個我們大概現在會比較面臨的一些不是問題就是說應該要注意的事項當然第一個就是預算要夠這是一定的\n\n00:34.338 --> 00:53.977\n接下來這一個裁劃法昨天就已經確定復議已經沒有通過所以裁劃法對國防的衝擊應該會很大那這方面國防部要先做好一些準備我覺得這個大概是沒有辦法的事情所以我今天是最主要針對另外三點來詢問最主要就是人流物流跟資訊這三個相關\n\n00:55.859 --> 01:23.453\n那第一個就是這一個物料的安全就是說我們今天下游的廠商他到底有沒有符合相關的規範或者說資安有沒有符合規範人員的安全我覺得這三個大概是最主要的部分預算現在就是等於是沒有辦法掌控在國防部的手上那第一個我想問一下就是說這一個關於這一個物流上的問題就是說剛剛其實也都有提到就是說我們現在裡面的這些零件什麼等等之類的有些可能是採購什麼的\n\n01:24.754 --> 01:43.516\n那我知道目前我們稍微看了一下很多都是跟關鼓有關的那可能不是什麼大問題但因為之前因為中科院的事情我們有時候會層層的外包那外包到一些下游的一些廠商的時候可能又會出現一些疑慮所以這方面可能要提醒這個網友要多注意這個部分我就不詢問\n\n01:44.497 --> 01:59.623\n但接下來就是這一個飛行就是人員安全的問題因為最近剛好爆發這樣的一個事件就是又是一個退役軍官然後被中國吸收那我當然知道因為退役軍官現在蠻多都是跟退伏有關我這一次也跟退伏會討論了這個議題\n\n02:01.304 --> 02:21.329\n那因為退府那邊能夠做的都是一些福利相關的就是說你福利要不要給他減啊什麼等等之類的一些懲罰的措施那現在以國防部的立場來講就是這種不斷的利用這些退休的軍官去接觸現役的或者說去接觸現有的機密目前來講還有什麼更精進的措施\n\n02:22.815 --> 02:42.021\n我想除了要落實反侵犯教育之外,我們當然也要做好涉密人員的查核就是我們現在已經在增加我們整個保防單位,特別是軍事安全總隊的原額然後我們也要建立國境人員揭秘資格認證的一個機制\n\n02:44.202 --> 03:09.871\n也就是說過去我們可能會說那你到一定的階級我們在做這個特殊查核可是我們現在主要的重點就是說跟美國一樣就是說我們不分階級我們按照他涉密的這個等級然後這個來進行這個相關的一個不同深度的一個查核那你要接受這樣子的一個\n\n03:10.911 --> 03:25.584\n查核通過你才能夠接觸這樣的一個密診這樣子那這個部分我們當然還要再更多的努力這樣子有這個我覺得是一個好的方向就是說呢是\n\n03:26.144 --> 03:50.868\n不只是對人我們對事的方面對於加密等級就是說哪些事情它的風險等級是多高然後誰接觸然後用這樣的方式來做規範那人員的部分呢像前陣子我在質詢的時候有問過這些解放軍相關的學校等等之類的那我記得上禮拜我已經跟這個人事室也已經談過了就是說對於這些人員進來的一些審核應該怎麼做所以這個我就不多問因為這個私底下已經討論完畢那我這邊還要再問一下就是\n\n03:54.389 --> 04:16.200\n人員的部分大概是剛剛部長講的這一些但再來就是資訊的部分因為剛剛前面有蠻多人問過就是他把這一個手機這個掉了嘛對不對所以呢裡面的一些資訊看起來有外洩雖然這個外洩的內容並不是一個直接的國防機密但我想問的事情是因為看起來他可能是自己的手機他是那個BYOD的這個手機\n\n04:17.421 --> 04:41.727\n那剛剛部長我剛剛聽到是回答楚音委員的時候有提到MDM的機制啦所以讓他在拍照的時候可能沒有辦法拍到一些重要的照片但因為他可能是自己的裝置所以他自己的裝置他雖然可能沒有拍到這些照片可是他文字上啊什麼等等之類的描述啊所以我想問一下就是說在未來MDM這個安裝上面有沒有可能就是說有這一個遠端可以Wipe啦\n\n04:42.327 --> 04:56.752\n就是說因為畢竟手機在什麼位置是比較容易被研判那如果說它今天被留到中國有沒有可能這種遠端直接磨除即使是它自己的裝置有這樣的可能嗎這個是不是要請這個同事沒有問題\n\n04:58.432 --> 05:12.745\n這個東西我們有在努力看要怎麼執行來做從遠端來監控因為我們事實上本來24小時都有在監控任何的我們的實體的網路上的內容委員提到這個我們下去努力看看\n\n05:13.986 --> 05:33.461\n監控到手機的部分也能從遠端來監控我們來下去研究看看對對因為我覺得如果說就單純的假如說就不是針對內容但發現它的移動的位置因為它訊號嘛它可能在中國如果遠端可以抹除的話可能更快因為畢竟雖然照片已經封住了就是有不讓它拍照但有時候還是有文字描述啊等等之類的\n\n05:33.561 --> 05:50.929\n我們如果上雲端的這些部分的內容,我們事實上都可以這樣來做,這個機制我們是有的。對,雲端的可以,就是要在本機上面。對,本機上面我們再跟外界來聯絡看看怎麼來執行,是有最好的方法。好,這是新型態的,不過這個當然講到底也是需要預算的。\n\n05:52.330 --> 06:06.745\n這個有時候現在是很困擾就是說現在敵方的威脅越來越多外洩的方式也會越來越多但是這些其實都是需要預算來執行所以這個不是國防部的問題這是其他人的問題這我就不多說那接下來我想因為還有一點時間我來問一下這個創新小組\n\n06:09.528 --> 06:37.900\n那創新小組呢在上次在2月24的時候有特別提到智慧化的倉儲管理啊這個衛星影像AI自動的辨識啊擴增實際的智慧作戰系統我想知道現在這個發展的狀況如何然後以及就是因為我剛好在前陣子去美國的時候我有特別又去考察了一下他們的這個創新小組怎麼做啦所以呢我想先知道現在國防部目前2月24講的這些東西目前的進度是如何\n\n06:38.539 --> 06:44.804\n我們現在公開徵集以後邀請民間企業提供企劃書在3月10號應該是已經辦了說明會然後有115家的廠商參與算是相當的熱烈因為我們在\n\n06:57.654 --> 07:13.572\n發佈這個公開徵集之前我們就有進行相關商情的蒐集大概理解這個民間有相關成熟的一些技術所以我們會說明之後希望透過這些民間成熟技術引進能夠快速來建構這樣子\n\n07:15.074 --> 07:43.821\n因為我們常常講這個場觀學啦那國防部現在看起來就是跟這個民間讓他們來然後來參與等等之類的這方面應該已經在進行了那學的部分呢就是說針對大學因為我為什麼會這樣問就是因為我這一次去在跟他們的一些創新小子在交流的時候他說他們會把一些比如說他們遇到的問題直接帶到用比喻上來講吧比如說帶到清大教大帶到台大的課堂上但是那個課堂是限制來上課的人而且那些上課的人還是有來做一些\n\n07:44.621 --> 08:06.611\n背景審查的啦因為不能夠讓他隨意接觸一些可能比較機密不一定要說機密但可能是一些比較機密的資料然後讓他們去嘗試解決這個他們所就是國防部所遇到的問題那我甚至呢在這一次他們相關的一些文件裡面有看到就是說他們除了跟自己的大學合作之外甚至有一些跨國跟一些民主盟友的一些大學的合作\n\n08:07.091 --> 08:29.003\n那我知道國防大學當然是重中之重啦但我想知道就是說以學的方面現在如果說以創新小組的立場有沒有可能會去跟一些台灣其他的學校然後做這些相關的交流以及請他們來做一些他們叫做TechnologicalSurprise啦就是說他們有比較創新的方式解決現在國防部遇到的一些小的技術的問題\n\n08:30.548 --> 08:56.297\n跟委員報告因為我們最近也了解就是說美國他會跟特定的學校然後成立一個實驗室比如說MIT成立一個實驗室那跟這個實驗室來進行一些相關特定的一些合作那我們現在的方式當然是比較透過這個學研中心也就是說我們會有差不多七大學研中心然後\n\n08:57.757 --> 09:25.799\n我們大概會100多今年是127個案子那我們根據這127個案子我們投入那當然這個是TIR5以下的這個部分那有沒有要特定針對說哪一個學校特定的一個強項然後來跟他進行更成熟的這個這個部分我想我們還需要研議那這個部分\n\n09:27.782 --> 09:48.668\n至少現在還沒有啦那要怎麼樣來那這個就如你剛講的如果是有相關涉及到說比如說要跟我們中科院或者相關的合作那涉及到機敏的話那如何確保這個機敏的資料不會外洩這當然也是一個課題啦對因為倒過來講就是說雖然多合作是好的\n\n09:49.088 --> 10:01.402\n但總是會有一些安全上的疑慮那我剛前面有一個還沒問到就CMNC就是說最近美國國防部已經去要求就是說更多的這個更高的這些資安規範那個我就可能等到下一次相關議題的時候我再來詢問因為時間已經到了好謝謝謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.512,"end":1.076,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長 謝謝"},{"start":14.807,"end":33.478,"text":"因為今天是跟國際國造有關我們有稍微整理一下因為現在整體的國際國造當然對台灣來講是非常的重要我稍微盤點了四個我們大概現在會比較面臨的一些不是問題就是說應該要注意的事項當然第一個就是預算要夠這是一定的"},{"start":34.338,"end":53.977,"text":"接下來這一個裁劃法昨天就已經確定復議已經沒有通過所以裁劃法對國防的衝擊應該會很大那這方面國防部要先做好一些準備我覺得這個大概是沒有辦法的事情所以我今天是最主要針對另外三點來詢問最主要就是人流物流跟資訊這三個相關"},{"start":55.859,"end":83.453,"text":"那第一個就是這一個物料的安全就是說我們今天下游的廠商他到底有沒有符合相關的規範或者說資安有沒有符合規範人員的安全我覺得這三個大概是最主要的部分預算現在就是等於是沒有辦法掌控在國防部的手上那第一個我想問一下就是說這一個關於這一個物流上的問題就是說剛剛其實也都有提到就是說我們現在裡面的這些零件什麼等等之類的有些可能是採購什麼的"},{"start":84.754,"end":103.516,"text":"那我知道目前我們稍微看了一下很多都是跟關鼓有關的那可能不是什麼大問題但因為之前因為中科院的事情我們有時候會層層的外包那外包到一些下游的一些廠商的時候可能又會出現一些疑慮所以這方面可能要提醒這個網友要多注意這個部分我就不詢問"},{"start":104.497,"end":119.623,"text":"但接下來就是這一個飛行就是人員安全的問題因為最近剛好爆發這樣的一個事件就是又是一個退役軍官然後被中國吸收那我當然知道因為退役軍官現在蠻多都是跟退伏有關我這一次也跟退伏會討論了這個議題"},{"start":121.304,"end":141.329,"text":"那因為退府那邊能夠做的都是一些福利相關的就是說你福利要不要給他減啊什麼等等之類的一些懲罰的措施那現在以國防部的立場來講就是這種不斷的利用這些退休的軍官去接觸現役的或者說去接觸現有的機密目前來講還有什麼更精進的措施"},{"start":142.815,"end":162.021,"text":"我想除了要落實反侵犯教育之外,我們當然也要做好涉密人員的查核就是我們現在已經在增加我們整個保防單位,特別是軍事安全總隊的原額然後我們也要建立國境人員揭秘資格認證的一個機制"},{"start":164.202,"end":189.871,"text":"也就是說過去我們可能會說那你到一定的階級我們在做這個特殊查核可是我們現在主要的重點就是說跟美國一樣就是說我們不分階級我們按照他涉密的這個等級然後這個來進行這個相關的一個不同深度的一個查核那你要接受這樣子的一個"},{"start":190.911,"end":205.584,"text":"查核通過你才能夠接觸這樣的一個密診這樣子那這個部分我們當然還要再更多的努力這樣子有這個我覺得是一個好的方向就是說呢是"},{"start":206.144,"end":230.868,"text":"不只是對人 我們對事的方面對於加密等級就是說哪些事情它的風險等級是多高然後誰接觸然後用這樣的方式來做規範那人員的部分呢像前陣子我在質詢的時候有問過這些解放軍相關的學校等等之類的那我記得上禮拜我已經跟這個人事室也已經談過了就是說對於這些人員進來的一些審核應該怎麼做所以這個我就不多問因為這個私底下已經討論完畢那我這邊還要再問一下就是"},{"start":234.389,"end":256.2,"text":"人員的部分大概是剛剛部長講的這一些但再來就是資訊的部分因為剛剛前面有蠻多人問過就是他把這一個手機這個掉了嘛 對不對所以呢裡面的一些資訊看起來有外洩雖然這個外洩的內容並不是一個直接的國防機密但我想問的事情是因為看起來他可能是自己的手機他是那個BYOD的這個手機"},{"start":257.421,"end":281.727,"text":"那剛剛部長我剛剛聽到是回答楚音委員的時候有提到MDM的機制啦所以讓他在拍照的時候可能沒有辦法拍到一些重要的照片但因為他可能是自己的裝置所以他自己的裝置他雖然可能沒有拍到這些照片可是他文字上啊什麼等等之類的描述啊所以我想問一下就是說在未來MDM這個安裝上面有沒有可能就是說有這一個遠端可以Wipe啦"},{"start":282.327,"end":296.752,"text":"就是說因為畢竟手機在什麼位置是比較容易被研判那如果說它今天被留到中國有沒有可能這種遠端直接磨除即使是它自己的裝置有這樣的可能嗎這個是不是要請這個同事沒有問題"},{"start":298.432,"end":312.745,"text":"這個東西我們有在努力看要怎麼執行來做從遠端來監控因為我們事實上本來24小時都有在監控任何的我們的實體的網路上的內容委員提到這個我們下去努力看看"},{"start":313.986,"end":333.461,"text":"監控到手機的部分也能從遠端來監控我們來下去研究看看對對因為我覺得如果說就單純的假如說就不是針對內容但發現它的移動的位置因為它訊號嘛它可能在中國如果遠端可以抹除的話可能更快因為畢竟雖然照片已經封住了就是有不讓它拍照但有時候還是有文字描述啊等等之類的"},{"start":333.561,"end":350.929,"text":"我們如果上雲端的這些部分的內容,我們事實上都可以這樣來做,這個機制我們是有的。對,雲端的可以,就是要在本機上面。對,本機上面我們再跟外界來聯絡看看怎麼來執行,是有最好的方法。好,這是新型態的,不過這個當然講到底也是需要預算的。"},{"start":352.33,"end":366.745,"text":"這個有時候現在是很困擾就是說現在敵方的威脅越來越多外洩的方式也會越來越多但是這些其實都是需要預算來執行所以這個不是國防部的問題這是其他人的問題這我就不多說那接下來我想因為還有一點時間我來問一下這個創新小組"},{"start":369.528,"end":397.9,"text":"那創新小組呢在上次在2月24的時候有特別提到智慧化的倉儲管理啊這個衛星影像AI自動的辨識啊擴增實際的智慧作戰系統我想知道現在這個發展的狀況如何然後以及就是因為我剛好在前陣子去美國的時候我有特別又去考察了一下他們的這個創新小組怎麼做啦所以呢我想先知道現在國防部目前2月24講的這些東西目前的進度是如何"},{"start":398.539,"end":404.804,"text":"我們現在公開徵集以後邀請民間企業提供企劃書在3月10號應該是已經辦了說明會然後有115家的廠商參與算是相當的熱烈因為我們在"},{"start":417.654,"end":433.572,"text":"發佈這個公開徵集之前我們就有進行相關商情的蒐集大概理解這個民間有相關成熟的一些技術所以我們會說明之後希望透過這些民間成熟技術引進能夠快速來建構這樣子"},{"start":435.074,"end":463.821,"text":"因為我們常常講這個場觀學啦那國防部現在看起來就是跟這個民間讓他們來然後來參與等等之類的這方面應該已經在進行了那學的部分呢就是說針對大學因為我為什麼會這樣問就是因為我這一次去在跟他們的一些創新小子在交流的時候他說他們會把一些比如說他們遇到的問題直接帶到用比喻上來講吧比如說帶到清大教大帶到台大的課堂上但是那個課堂是限制來上課的人而且那些上課的人還是有來做一些"},{"start":464.621,"end":486.611,"text":"背景審查的啦因為不能夠讓他隨意接觸一些可能比較機密不一定要說機密但可能是一些比較機密的資料然後讓他們去嘗試解決這個他們所就是國防部所遇到的問題那我甚至呢在這一次他們相關的一些文件裡面有看到就是說他們除了跟自己的大學合作之外甚至有一些跨國跟一些民主盟友的一些大學的合作"},{"start":487.091,"end":509.003,"text":"那我知道國防大學當然是重中之重啦但我想知道就是說以學的方面現在如果說以創新小組的立場有沒有可能會去跟一些台灣其他的學校然後做這些相關的交流以及請他們來做一些他們叫做Technological Surprise啦就是說他們有比較創新的方式解決現在國防部遇到的一些小的技術的問題"},{"start":510.548,"end":536.297,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們最近也了解就是說美國他會跟特定的學校然後成立一個實驗室比如說MIT成立一個實驗室那跟這個實驗室來進行一些相關特定的一些合作那我們現在的方式當然是比較透過這個學研中心也就是說我們會有差不多七大學研中心然後"},{"start":537.757,"end":565.799,"text":"我們大概會100多今年是127個案子那我們根據這127個案子我們投入那當然這個是TIR5以下的這個部分那有沒有要特定針對說哪一個學校特定的一個強項然後來跟他進行更成熟的這個這個部分我想我們還需要研議那這個部分"},{"start":567.782,"end":588.668,"text":"至少現在還沒有啦那要怎麼樣來那這個就如你剛講的如果是有相關涉及到說比如說要跟我們中科院或者相關的合作那涉及到機敏的話那如何確保這個機敏的資料不會外洩這當然也是一個課題啦對 因為倒過來講就是說雖然多合作是好的"},{"start":589.088,"end":601.402,"text":"但總是會有一些安全上的疑慮那我剛前面有一個還沒問到就CMNC就是說最近美國國防部已經去要求就是說更多的這個更高的這些資安規範那個我就可能等到下一次相關議題的時候我再來詢問因為時間已經到了好 謝謝謝謝部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":270,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時15分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["顧部長立雄：沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：部長好。今天是跟國機國造有關，我們有稍微整理一下，因為現在整體的國機國造當然對臺灣來講是非常重要，那我稍微盤點了四個，我們大概現在會比較面臨到的，不是問題，就是一些應該要注意的事項，當然第一個就是預算要夠，這是一定的。接下來是財劃法，昨天就已經確定覆議沒有通過，所以財劃法對國防的衝擊應該會很大，這方面國防部要先做好一些準備，我覺得這大概是沒有辦法的事情。","所以我今天最主要是針對另外三點來來詢問，最主要就是人流、物流跟資訊這三個相關的，第一個是物料的安全，我們今天下游的廠商到底有沒有符合相關規範，或者資安有沒有符合規範？包括人員的安全，我覺得這三個大概是最主要的部分，預算現在就是等於是沒有辦法掌控在國防部的手上。","第一個，我想問一下關於物流上的問題，剛剛其實也都有提到，就是我們現在裡面的這些零件什麼的等等之類，有些可能是採購什麼的，就我知道，目前我們稍微看了一下，很多都是跟官股有關的，那可能不是什麼大問題，但之前因為中科院的事情我們有時候會層層外包，外包到一些下游廠商的時候，可能又會出現一些疑慮，所以這方面可能要提醒國防部要多注意，這個部分我就不詢問。","接下來是飛行，就是人員安全的問題，因為最近剛好爆發這樣的一個事件，又是一個退役軍官，然後被中國吸收了。我當然知道，因為退役軍官現在蠻多都是跟退輔會有關，我這一次也跟退輔會討論了這個議題。因為退輔那邊能夠做的都是一些福利相關的，就是你福利要不要給他減少等等之類的一些懲罰措施。現在以國防部的立場來講，就是這種不斷利用退休軍官去接觸現役的，或者去接觸現有的機密，目前來講還有什麼更精進的措施？"],["顧部長立雄：我想除了要落實反情報教育之外，我們當然也要做好涉密人員的查核，我們現在已經在增加整個保防單位，特別是軍事安全總隊的員額。然後我們也要建立國軍人員接密資格認證的一個機制，也就是過去可能會是你到一定的階級我們再做特殊查核，可是我們現在主要的重點就是跟美國一樣，我們不分階級，按照他涉密的等級進行相關的不同深度的查核，你要接受這樣子的一個查核通過才能夠接觸這樣的密等，這個部分我們當然還要再更多的努力。"],["沈委員伯洋：有這個我覺得是一個好的方向，不只是對人，我們就對事的方面，對於加密等級，哪些事情的風險等級是多高，然後誰接觸，用這樣的方式來做規範。","那人員的部分，像前陣子我在質詢的時候有問過解放軍相關的學校等等之類的，我記得上禮拜我跟人事室也已經談過了，就是對於這些人員進來的一些審核應該怎麼做，所以我就不多問，因為這個私底下已經討論完畢，那我這邊還要再問一下的就是，人員部分大概是剛剛部長講的這一些，再來就是資訊的部分。","剛剛前面有滿多人問過，就是他把手機掉了，對不對？所以裡面的一些資訊看起來有外洩，雖然這個外洩的內容並不是直接的國防機密。但我想問的事情是，因為看起來可能是自己的手機，它是BYOD的手機，我剛剛聽到部長回答楚茵委員的時候有提到MDM的機制，所以讓他在拍照的時候可能沒有辦法拍到一些重要的照片，但因為它可能是自己的裝置，所以他雖然可能沒有拍到這些照片，可是在文字上什麼的等等之類的描述，我想問一下，未來MDM安裝上面有沒有可能就是有遠端可以wipe？因為畢竟手機在什麼位置是比較容易被研判，如果它今天被流到中國，有沒有可能這種就遠端直接抹除？即使是他自己的裝置，有這樣的可能嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：這個是不是要請通次室？"],["沈委員伯洋：沒問題，對。"],["鄧次長恩憐：委員好，我是通次室室長，這個東西我們有在努力看要怎麼執行來做，從遠端監控，因為事實上本來就24小時都有在監控任何我們的實體網路上的內容。那委員提到這個，我們下去努力看看可不可以監控到手機的部分，也能從遠端監控，我們下去研究看看。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，因為我覺得，如果單純地假如不是針對內容，但你發現它的移動位置，因為它的訊號可能在中國，如果遠端可以抹除的話可能更快。"],["鄧次長恩憐：是……"],["沈委員伯洋：因為畢竟，雖然照片已經封住了，就是不讓它拍照，但有時候還是有文字描述等等之類的。"],["鄧次長恩憐：如果上雲端的這些部分的內容，我們事實上都可以這樣來做，這個機制我們是有的，然後現在正在……"],["沈委員伯洋：對，雲端的，就是在本機上面。"],["鄧次長恩憐：對，本機上面，這個我們再跟外界聯絡看看怎麼執行是最好的方法。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，這是新型態的。"],["鄧次長恩憐：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：不過當然講到底這個也是需要預算，所以很困擾的就是，現在敵方的威脅越來越多，外洩的方式也會越來越多，但是這些其實都需要預算來執行。所以這個不是國防部的問題，這是其他人的問題，這個我就不多說。","接下來，因為還有點時間，我來問一下這個創新小組，上次在2月24日有特別提到智慧化倉儲管理、衛星影像AI自動辨識、擴增實境智慧作戰系統，我想知道現在這個發展的狀況如何？因為我剛好在前陣子去美國的時候，我有特別又去考察了一下他們的創新小組怎麼做，所以我想先知道國防部2月24日講的這些東西目前進度是如何？"],["顧部長立雄：我們現在公開徵集以後，邀請民間企業提供企劃書，在3月10日應該是已經辦了說明會，然後有115家廠商參與，算是相當熱烈，因為在發布公開徵集之前我們就有進行相關商情的蒐集，大概理解民間有相關成熟的一些技術。所以我們會說明之後，希望透過這些民間成熟技術的引進能夠快速建構。"],["沈委員伯洋：我們常常講產官學，國防部現在看起來就是跟民間、讓他們參與等等之類的，這方面應該已經在進行了。那學的部分呢？就是針對大學，我為什麼會這樣問？就是因為我這次去跟他們的一些創新小組在交流的時候，他說他們會把一些比如遇到的問題，用比喻來講，比如直接帶到清大、交大，帶到臺大的課堂上，但那個課堂是限制來上課的人，而且那些上課的人還是有做一些背景審查的，因為不能夠讓他隨意接觸一些可能比較機敏的，不一定要到機密，但可能是一些比較機敏的資料，然後讓他們去嘗試解決他們的國防部所遇到的問題。","我甚至在這一次他們相關的一些文件裡面有看到，他們除了跟自己的大學合作之外，甚至有跨國及民主盟友的一些大學的合作。我知道國防大學當然是重中之重，但我想知道，以學的方面，現在如果以創新小組的立場，有沒有可能會去跟一些臺灣其他的學校做這些相關的交流，以及請他們來做一些他們叫做technological surprise，就是他們有比較創新的方式解決現在國防部遇到的一些小的技術上的問題？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，因為我們最近也了解，就是美國會跟特定的學校成立一個實驗室。"],["沈委員伯洋：對。"],["顧部長立雄：比如MIT，成立一個實驗室，跟這個實驗室進行相關特定的一些合作。我們現在的方式當然是比較透過學研中心，會有差不多七大學研中心，今年是127個案子，根據這127個案子我們投入，當然這個是TRL 5以下的部分。那有沒有要針對哪一個學校特定的強項，然後跟它進行更成熟的……我們還需要研議，這個部分至少現在還沒有，要怎麼樣……這個就是您剛剛講的，如果是有相關涉及到譬如要跟我們中科院或相關的合作，涉及到機敏的話，如何確保這個機敏的資料不會外洩，這當然也是一個課題。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，因為倒過來講，雖然多合作是好的，但總是會有一些安全上的疑慮。","我剛剛前面有一個還沒問到，就是CMMC，最近美國國防部已經去要求更多、更高的資安規範，那個部分我可能等到下一次談到相關議題的時候再來詢問，因為時間已經到了。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員的發言，部長請回。接下來由馬文君委員質詢。","在這邊宣告，接下來徐巧芯委員質詢完畢之後，休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-2","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳冠廷","林楚茵","陳永康","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","徐巧芯","黃國昌","邱志偉","林憶君","王定宇","羅智強"],"page_start":83,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告「國機國造交機進度及勇鷹高教機失事後檢修情況」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00002"}}}