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\"end\": 803.068, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,465 --> 00:00:21,670\n是馬委員部長早部長今天因為我們有幾個議題那今天當然主要的是就我們國際國造的永英號的部分可是我們先談一個\n\n2\n00:00:24,591 --> 00:00:39,414\n熊市專案就是我們看到在本月初在三月初的時候其實剛看到有媒體的報導才揭露他掛載在IDF戰機上面然後升空測試的這個畫面這個就有點像台積電剛辦完他發表\n\n3\n00:00:51,226 --> 00:01:09,984\n研發出最先進然後最高端的這樣的晶片可是後來才發現四年前就已經有把裡面的機密洩漏給對手我們這個也是在月初你才掛載在我們的IDF上面可是現在才突然又爆出來說\n\n4\n00:01:11,185 --> 00:01:18,008\n這個已經四年前就被空軍現退役的人員洩漏給解放軍這樣子的狀況我們在雖然現在已經進入司法程序可是我們當初沒有做行政調查嗎在行政調查已經發生什麼樣的問題難道不知道嗎這個未來要怎麼樣嚴防\n\n5\n00:01:32,300 --> 00:01:57,152\n跟委員報告,就我們理解,現在有關這個所謂被洩漏這個IDF西瓜這個還有所謂的運用的這個部分是屬於在研發這個案之前的一個相關的學術的研討資料,它並不是真正我們的運用的資料啦它就我們的理解是這樣,鐘柯要不要再說明一下\n\n6\n00:01:58,122 --> 00:02:10,424\n簡單就好了好不好因為你在這裡我想你也不會說明太多什麼是因為這個熊市專案它是一個科研案所以在這邊不方便說明但是這個幾年了熊市專案熊市專案是從111年開始111年111年開始現在114對那就如同剛剛委員指導的那在我們設計的這個過程中其實\n\n7\n00:02:26,167 --> 00:02:43,930\n一些的數據還有一些的這個我們所謂到就PDRCDR我們有很多的研發的這個流程其實都還在作業階段那現在的這個只是在做一個空載的一個測試所以其實詳細的租源的數據應該是空載的測試表示我們已經做出來了\n\n8\n00:02:44,751 --> 00:03:12,043\n所以現在講的這個是時間點我們現在是先提出來啦那未來如果有什麼樣的狀況再做討論我們要講的是你在現在已經掛上去了可是你應該很早就知道這個機密是有洩漏出去的到底有沒有影響我想這個我只是說明說應該是40年那個不會是洩漏現在我們真正的這些相關的機密部長設計的時候是最重要的\n\n9\n00:03:13,504 --> 00:03:35,657\n這個部分沒有必要在這裡爭執這個部分如果它不重要那就不用辦了如果它重要你就要知道說我們做這個因為這個不是只有對岸想要包括美商都很想要我們熊二熊三我們的熊系列是我們最引以為傲的你今天如果發生這樣的事情如果我們還可以這麼不經意那對我們的\n\n10\n00:03:38,759 --> 00:03:46,364\n未來的很多的製造會有很大的影響我們接到官兵檢舉以後我們立即啟動這個國安機制的調查所以我們現在今天會提出這個因為我們已經在調查不是說調查的問題而是這個會不會造成影響或者對我們這樣的製造那如果機密到底被掌握多少這可能對後續會有影響這個才是我們國防部或相關單位或中科院其實應該要去好好\n\n11\n00:04:04,955 --> 00:04:28,881\n要進行評估但是說明我們立即知道以後就在112年那個當時我們就已經提出進行調查那現在是最近才起訴這樣那個部分我們有機會再來討論啦因為我覺得彈藥的部分可能後續還有非常多的問題那想要請教部長因為我們現在在永英號的部分我們\n\n12\n00:04:30,121 --> 00:04:52,167\n製造跟後續的維護全部都是給漢祥嘛對不對那我們委制的部分是空軍跟中科院簽協議書那中科院跟漢祥是簽商業合約現在發生這樣的事情因為第一他延宕就是本來應該要給我們現在應該要到45架了\n\n13\n00:04:56,450 --> 00:05:15,738\n47架可是現在目前才43架其實還有4架的一個落後那這個有沒有罰則中科院跟漢翔簽訂企業有預期交機的一個罰則那麼他會依照交付品項的單價的金額在每日簽文之一計法那以企業總的20%為上限有罰則嘛那像對我們國軍呢因為是我們空軍跟他簽的那這個罰則後來會給誰\n\n14\n00:05:26,084 --> 00:05:37,308\n罰款華澤的部分中科院有說明罰款的部分會一定的比例有沒有給國軍目前照法令來講是沒有辦法什麼樣的法令會給國庫吧對會給國庫會給國庫還有繳稅怎麼樣給國庫罰款嗎我說的是罰款不是你正常的那個罰款有多少比例會給國庫10%會給國庫為什麼只有10%\n\n15\n00:05:50,633 --> 00:05:54,434\n飛機掉了是國軍的損失萬一有人員的傷亡是最大的損失為什麼只有10%給國庫這是依照我們設置條例還有我們的這個這個部分我們希望可以收支是中科院的問題你說你有部分你有繳稅剛剛有聽到你們的說明你有繳稅或者每年要多少\n\n16\n00:06:15,140 --> 00:06:36,488\n給國庫那是因為你從國家拿了這些錢跟這個罰則是不相關的今天如果漢翔你跟漢翔訂的商業合約他有罰款的話照理說他就有些必須要進國庫因為對於整個損失來說都是國家的就是我們國軍的不管人員也好不管飛機也好他掉了那然後咧\n\n17\n00:06:38,849 --> 00:06:57,903\n而且這一架飛機是去年才交的而且它是國機國造它等於是我們的國防自主的一個典範那發生這樣的事這個部分我們完全全部就損失了這是第一點那第二點維護的合約是空軍直接跟漢想簽對不對是那像這樣子是簽類似中科院的協議書或者一般的商業合約\n\n18\n00:07:07,213 --> 00:07:27,259\n有律定罰則嗎?或者他有究責條款嗎?維修的合約如果有問題的話有相關依照涉及合約的這個部分可以來執行嗎?我只要兩個答案一個就是他有沒有罰則第二個他有沒有究責條款回答這個就好在這個協議書裡面維修的條款都有這兩個都有?有罰款\n\n19\n00:07:37,334 --> 00:07:56,919\n法款的部分報告委員這個我回去再查證再向你報告這兩個部分因為部長您是在法律上面的專業因為你在委制的部分有這個部分那是因為跟中科院中科院在跟漢祥那現在如果是由空軍直接跟漢祥我相信這個部分也有必要去做一個\n\n20\n00:07:58,539 --> 00:08:13,292\n一個規範萬一他維修你沒有把它做好這個甚至危害到人命的安全這非常重要就我的理解如果維修有失誤應該是可以救損失來加以求求長我們的合約沒有寫的話那就會非常的籠統這個部分他應該要清楚明白過去沒有不代表未來可以沒有\n\n21\n00:08:22,199 --> 00:08:38,887\n因為我們這個不是F16F16我們沒有自主性你現在是國機國照這個全部都是由我們國內自己做的這個部分不管是委制也好委修也好它都應該要有一個律定的一個罰則跟救責的一個條件\n\n22\n00:08:40,507 --> 00:08:51,193\n應該有一個救我記得我的理解是有救責的機制我回去下去我確定以後我再跟委員做報告好謝謝那另外因為借一點點時間我們這一次國際國造飛機失事我們還是希望找出確切的原因因為我們從報告上面看起來他寫的這份報告就是人處無害的報告\n\n23\n00:09:06,772 --> 00:09:26,414\n我們現在交給空軍的時候因為你提了四類十二項比如說報告上面所提出的因素有發動機系然後電源系電氣系燃油系這個都是獨立的系統它在兩個發動機都有如果全部系統在同一秒失效這個是奇蹟\n\n24\n00:09:27,495 --> 00:09:40,957\n它能發生的機率幾乎是零可是我們在報告裡面看不出來我們到底找到什麼樣的原因你的4類12項本來在交給空軍的時候移交給空軍的時候這個本來就要檢查的第二個在起飛的時候在飛行的時候這些也都是必要的檢查項目所以你在報告裡面再重複檢查這些一點意義都沒有因為甚至我們不明白說你幹嘛要檢查華郵\n\n25\n00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:04,525\n這個滑油它在發動機在動作的時候如果滑油有滲漏它就像那個拖一根煙囪一樣就像我們常常在雲上面可以看到那個像吃機油的車啦它會有排氣管會冒白煙所以如果像噴射發動機的話那是巨量的白煙比國慶表演那個那個\n\n26\n00:10:17,913 --> 00:10:19,275\n那種視覺效果不會更差所以不可能不會發現可是我們在報告裡面看到的是這些我在這裡想要提出來\n\n27\n00:10:28,393 --> 00:10:47,013\n要特別也請部長可以關注的部分因為事實上這一架飛機掉了還好沒有人員的傷亡可是檢查項目不能解釋我們在現在看不到啊我們今天特別開了一個我同意檢查項目不能夠解釋所以我們現在黑客是達到我們應該要盡快的確實\n\n28\n00:10:50,196 --> 00:10:58,703\n部長我們希望黑盒子可以好好的去做判讀可是在沒有找到黑盒子之前今天還沒有排之前我們看不到尤其是這個報告我在這裡要特別提出來為什麼雙發動機同時失效它是已經發生了事實可是原因呢\n\n29\n00:11:08,610 --> 00:11:19,733\n我們在這個部分黑盒子萬一真的都沒有找到我們也看不到這一次真正主要的原因到底是什麼所以我在這裡提醒一下包括空軍還有今天漢翔沒有來嗎今天漢翔有來為什麼漢翔沒有來因為漢翔是經濟部的\n\n30\n00:11:28,649 --> 00:11:42,447\n不是漢祥是製造還有維護我們永英號的主要的公司今天發生事情漢祥沒有派員來參加甚至如果有應該要發生的兩個都應該是要問他啊\n\n31\n00:11:45,811 --> 00:11:59,970\n在這裡我們先提出來想要請教我們有沒有檢查低燃油的警告指示它有沒有問題這個黑盒子到時候可能也好好的判讀一下第二個油車油槽是否含水因為如果你們說那個發動機是新的\n\n32\n00:12:02,133 --> 00:12:15,089\n至少不管它是不是歸零啦它至少在顯示上面它是新的那可能就是油箱的問題我為什麼今天會特別提出來希望空軍就這個部分要好好的去做一個檢查油車油廠是否有含水因為在\n\n33\n00:12:18,553 --> 00:12:21,954\n這個當天要飛的時候他都應該要有油品品試測驗的這個記錄那飛機有沒有做雨林測試這個漢想也有因為我們剛剛提到如果不是發動機那可能是油箱的問題這我今天提到這幾點都是油箱跟油草的問題那飛機有沒有做雨林測試看看油箱口有沒有有效的防止滲水\n\n34\n00:12:43,843 --> 00:12:47,944\n這個對於飛行安全非常重要如果這些通通沒有問題那表示漢翔可能在設計上面有一點問題這個就更嚴重了我們希望可以真的落實這個是國機國造而且是我們可以自主因為F16如果我們隨便要猜要看美方還不會同意可是這個都是從頭到尾都是我們自己做的沒有理由我們找不出原因這個對後續的飛行安全還有我們\n\n35\n00:13:11,750 --> 00:13:23,068\n空軍所有的弟兄他們的非安也非常的重要希望可以把它查清楚這只是去年新交的心機發生這樣的事情沒有理由提供這樣的報告謝謝所以我們會盡快來釐清好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8465\t21670\t是 馬委員部長早部長今天因為我們有幾個議題那今天當然主要的是就我們國際國造的永英號的部分可是我們先談一個\n24591\t39414\t熊市專案就是我們看到在本月初在三月初的時候其實剛看到有媒體的報導才揭露他掛載在IDF戰機上面然後升空測試的這個畫面這個就有點像台積電剛辦完他發表\n51226\t69984\t研發出最先進然後最高端的這樣的晶片可是後來才發現四年前就已經有把裡面的機密洩漏給對手我們這個也是在月初你才掛載在我們的IDF上面可是現在才突然又爆出來說\n71185\t78008\t這個已經四年前就被空軍現退役的人員洩漏給解放軍這樣子的狀況我們在雖然現在已經進入司法程序可是我們當初沒有做行政調查嗎在行政調查已經發生什麼樣的問題難道不知道嗎這個未來要怎麼樣嚴防\n92300\t117152\t跟委員報告,就我們理解,現在有關這個所謂被洩漏這個IDF西瓜這個還有所謂的運用的這個部分是屬於在研發這個案之前的一個相關的學術的研討資料,它並不是真正我們的運用的資料啦它就我們的理解是這樣,鐘柯要不要再說明一下\n118122\t130424\t簡單就好了好不好因為你在這裡我想你也不會說明太多什麼是因為這個熊市專案它是一個科研案所以在這邊不方便說明但是這個幾年了熊市專案熊市專案是從111年開始111年111年開始現在114對那就如同剛剛委員指導的那在我們設計的這個過程中其實\n146167\t163930\t一些的數據還有一些的這個我們所謂到就PDR CDR我們有很多的研發的這個流程其實都還在作業階段那現在的這個只是在做一個空載的一個測試所以其實詳細的租源的數據應該是空載的測試表示我們已經做出來了\n164751\t192043\t所以現在講的這個是時間點我們現在是先提出來啦那未來如果有什麼樣的狀況再做討論我們要講的是你在現在已經掛上去了可是你應該很早就知道這個機密是有洩漏出去的到底有沒有影響我想這個我只是說明說應該是40年那個不會是洩漏現在我們真正的這些相關的機密部長設計的時候是最重要的\n193504\t215657\t這個部分沒有必要在這裡爭執這個部分如果它不重要那就不用辦了如果它重要你就要知道說我們做這個因為這個不是只有對岸想要包括美商都很想要我們熊二熊三我們的熊系列是我們最引以為傲的你今天如果發生這樣的事情如果我們還可以這麼不經意那對我們的\n218759\t226364\t未來的很多的製造會有很大的影響我們接到官兵檢舉以後我們立即啟動這個國安機制的調查所以我們現在今天會提出這個因為我們已經在調查不是說調查的問題而是這個會不會造成影響或者對我們這樣的製造那如果機密到底被掌握多少這可能對後續會有影響這個才是我們國防部或相關單位或中科院其實應該要去好好\n244955\t268881\t要進行評估但是說明我們立即知道以後就在112年那個當時我們就已經提出進行調查那現在是最近才起訴這樣那個部分我們有機會再來討論啦因為我覺得彈藥的部分可能後續還有非常多的問題那想要請教部長因為我們現在在永英號的部分我們\n270121\t292167\t製造跟後續的維護全部都是給漢祥嘛 對不對那我們委制的部分是空軍跟中科院簽協議書那中科院跟漢祥是簽商業合約現在發生這樣的事情因為第一他延宕就是本來應該要給我們現在應該要到45架了\n296450\t315738\t47架可是現在目前才43架其實還有4架的一個落後那這個有沒有罰則中科院跟漢翔簽訂企業有預期交機的一個罰則那麼他會依照交付品項的單價的金額在每日簽文之一計法那以企業總的20%為上限有罰則嘛那像對我們國軍呢因為是我們空軍跟他簽的那這個罰則後來會給誰\n326084\t337308\t罰款 華澤的部分中科院有說明罰款的部分會一定的比例有沒有給國軍目前照法令來講是沒有辦法什麼樣的法令會給國庫吧對 會給國庫會給國庫 還有繳稅怎麼樣給國庫 罰款嗎 我說的是罰款不是你正常的那個 罰款有多少比例會給國庫10%會給國庫為什麼只有10%\n350633\t354434\t飛機掉了是國軍的損失萬一有人員的傷亡是最大的損失為什麼只有10%給國庫這是依照我們設置條例還有我們的這個這個部分我們希望可以收支是中科院的問題你說你有部分你有繳稅剛剛有聽到你們的說明你有繳稅或者每年要多少\n375140\t396488\t給國庫那是因為你從國家拿了這些錢跟這個罰則是不相關的今天如果漢翔你跟漢翔訂的商業合約他有罰款的話照理說他就有些必須要進國庫因為對於整個損失來說都是國家的就是我們國軍的不管人員也好不管飛機也好他掉了那然後咧\n398849\t417903\t而且這一架飛機是去年才交的而且它是國機國造它等於是我們的國防自主的一個典範那發生這樣的事這個部分我們完全全部就損失了這是第一點那第二點維護的合約是空軍直接跟漢想簽對不對是那像這樣子是簽類似中科院的協議書或者一般的商業合約\n427213\t447259\t有律定罰則嗎?或者他有究責條款嗎?維修的合約如果有問題的話有相關依照涉及合約的這個部分可以來執行嗎?我只要兩個答案一個就是他有沒有罰則第二個他有沒有究責條款回答這個就好在這個協議書裡面維修的條款都有這兩個都有?有罰款\n457334\t476919\t法款的部分報告委員這個我回去再查證再向你報告這兩個部分因為部長您是在法律上面的專業因為你在委制的部分有這個部分那是因為跟中科院 中科院在跟漢祥那現在如果是由空軍直接跟漢祥我相信這個部分也有必要去做一個\n478539\t493292\t一個規範萬一他維修你沒有把它做好這個甚至危害到人命的安全這非常重要就我的理解如果維修有失誤應該是可以救損失來加以求求長我們的合約沒有寫的話那就會非常的籠統這個部分他應該要清楚明白過去沒有不代表未來可以沒有\n502199\t518887\t因為我們這個不是F16F16我們沒有自主性你現在是國機國照這個全部都是由我們國內自己做的這個部分不管是委制也好 委修也好它都應該要有一個律定的一個罰則跟救責的一個條件\n520507\t531193\t應該有一個救我記得我的理解是有救責的機制我回去下去我確定以後我再跟委員做報告好謝謝那另外因為借一點點時間我們這一次國際國造飛機失事我們還是希望找出確切的原因因為我們從報告上面看起來他寫的這份報告就是人處無害的報告\n546772\t566414\t我們現在交給空軍的時候因為你提了四類十二項比如說報告上面所提出的因素有發動機系然後電源系電氣系燃油系這個都是獨立的系統它在兩個發動機都有如果全部系統在同一秒失效這個是奇蹟\n567495\t580957\t它能發生的機率幾乎是零可是我們在報告裡面看不出來我們到底找到什麼樣的原因你的4類12項本來在交給空軍的時候移交給空軍的時候這個本來就要檢查的第二個在起飛的時候在飛行的時候這些也都是必要的檢查項目所以你在報告裡面再重複檢查這些一點意義都沒有因為甚至我們不明白說你幹嘛要檢查華郵\n596200\t604525\t這個滑油它在發動機在動作的時候如果滑油有滲漏它就像那個拖一根煙囪一樣就像我們常常在雲上面可以看到那個像吃機油的車啦它會有排氣管會冒白煙所以如果像噴射發動機的話那是巨量的白煙比國慶表演那個那個\n617913\t619275\t那種視覺效果不會更差所以不可能不會發現可是我們在報告裡面看到的是這些我在這裡想要提出來\n628393\t647013\t要特別也請部長可以關注的部分因為事實上這一架飛機掉了還好沒有人員的傷亡可是檢查項目不能解釋我們在現在看不到啊我們今天特別開了一個我同意檢查項目不能夠解釋所以我們現在黑客是達到我們應該要盡快的確實\n650196\t658703\t部長我們希望黑盒子可以好好的去做判讀可是在沒有找到黑盒子之前今天還沒有排之前我們看不到尤其是這個報告我在這裡要特別提出來為什麼雙發動機同時失效它是已經發生了事實可是原因呢\n668610\t679733\t我們在這個部分黑盒子萬一真的都沒有找到我們也看不到這一次真正主要的原因到底是什麼所以我在這裡提醒一下包括空軍還有今天漢翔沒有來嗎今天漢翔有來為什麼漢翔沒有來因為漢翔是經濟部的\n688649\t702447\t不是 漢祥是製造還有維護我們永英號的主要的公司今天發生事情漢祥沒有派員來參加甚至如果有應該要發生的兩個都應該是要問他啊\n705811\t719970\t在這裡我們先提出來想要請教我們有沒有檢查低燃油的警告指示它有沒有問題這個黑盒子到時候可能也好好的判讀一下第二個油車油槽是否含水因為如果你們說那個發動機是新的\n722133\t735089\t至少不管它是不是歸零啦它至少在顯示上面它是新的那可能就是油箱的問題我為什麼今天會特別提出來希望空軍就這個部分要好好的去做一個檢查油車油廠是否有含水因為在\n738553\t741954\t這個當天要飛的時候他都應該要有油品品試測驗的這個記錄那飛機有沒有做雨林測試這個漢想也有因為我們剛剛提到如果不是發動機那可能是油箱的問題這我今天提到這幾點都是油箱跟油草的問題那飛機有沒有做雨林測試看看油箱口有沒有有效的防止滲水\n763843\t767944\t這個對於飛行安全非常重要如果這些通通沒有問題那表示漢翔可能在設計上面有一點問題這個就更嚴重了我們希望可以真的落實這個是國機國造而且是我們可以自主因為F16如果我們隨便要猜要看美方還不會同意可是這個都是從頭到尾都是我們自己做的沒有理由我們找不出原因這個對後續的飛行安全還有我們\n791750\t803068\t空軍所有的弟兄他們的非安也非常的重要希望可以把它查清楚這只是去年新交的心機發生這樣的事情沒有理由提供這樣的報告謝謝所以我們會盡快來釐清好 謝謝\n","txt":"是 馬委員部長早部長今天因為我們有幾個議題那今天當然主要的是就我們國際國造的永英號的部分可是我們先談一個\n熊市專案就是我們看到在本月初在三月初的時候其實剛看到有媒體的報導才揭露他掛載在IDF戰機上面然後升空測試的這個畫面這個就有點像台積電剛辦完他發表\n研發出最先進然後最高端的這樣的晶片可是後來才發現四年前就已經有把裡面的機密洩漏給對手我們這個也是在月初你才掛載在我們的IDF上面可是現在才突然又爆出來說\n這個已經四年前就被空軍現退役的人員洩漏給解放軍這樣子的狀況我們在雖然現在已經進入司法程序可是我們當初沒有做行政調查嗎在行政調查已經發生什麼樣的問題難道不知道嗎這個未來要怎麼樣嚴防\n跟委員報告,就我們理解,現在有關這個所謂被洩漏這個IDF西瓜這個還有所謂的運用的這個部分是屬於在研發這個案之前的一個相關的學術的研討資料,它並不是真正我們的運用的資料啦它就我們的理解是這樣,鐘柯要不要再說明一下\n簡單就好了好不好因為你在這裡我想你也不會說明太多什麼是因為這個熊市專案它是一個科研案所以在這邊不方便說明但是這個幾年了熊市專案熊市專案是從111年開始111年111年開始現在114對那就如同剛剛委員指導的那在我們設計的這個過程中其實\n一些的數據還有一些的這個我們所謂到就PDR CDR我們有很多的研發的這個流程其實都還在作業階段那現在的這個只是在做一個空載的一個測試所以其實詳細的租源的數據應該是空載的測試表示我們已經做出來了\n所以現在講的這個是時間點我們現在是先提出來啦那未來如果有什麼樣的狀況再做討論我們要講的是你在現在已經掛上去了可是你應該很早就知道這個機密是有洩漏出去的到底有沒有影響我想這個我只是說明說應該是40年那個不會是洩漏現在我們真正的這些相關的機密部長設計的時候是最重要的\n這個部分沒有必要在這裡爭執這個部分如果它不重要那就不用辦了如果它重要你就要知道說我們做這個因為這個不是只有對岸想要包括美商都很想要我們熊二熊三我們的熊系列是我們最引以為傲的你今天如果發生這樣的事情如果我們還可以這麼不經意那對我們的\n未來的很多的製造會有很大的影響我們接到官兵檢舉以後我們立即啟動這個國安機制的調查所以我們現在今天會提出這個因為我們已經在調查不是說調查的問題而是這個會不會造成影響或者對我們這樣的製造那如果機密到底被掌握多少這可能對後續會有影響這個才是我們國防部或相關單位或中科院其實應該要去好好\n要進行評估但是說明我們立即知道以後就在112年那個當時我們就已經提出進行調查那現在是最近才起訴這樣那個部分我們有機會再來討論啦因為我覺得彈藥的部分可能後續還有非常多的問題那想要請教部長因為我們現在在永英號的部分我們\n製造跟後續的維護全部都是給漢祥嘛 對不對那我們委制的部分是空軍跟中科院簽協議書那中科院跟漢祥是簽商業合約現在發生這樣的事情因為第一他延宕就是本來應該要給我們現在應該要到45架了\n47架可是現在目前才43架其實還有4架的一個落後那這個有沒有罰則中科院跟漢翔簽訂企業有預期交機的一個罰則那麼他會依照交付品項的單價的金額在每日簽文之一計法那以企業總的20%為上限有罰則嘛那像對我們國軍呢因為是我們空軍跟他簽的那這個罰則後來會給誰\n罰款 華澤的部分中科院有說明罰款的部分會一定的比例有沒有給國軍目前照法令來講是沒有辦法什麼樣的法令會給國庫吧對 會給國庫會給國庫 還有繳稅怎麼樣給國庫 罰款嗎 我說的是罰款不是你正常的那個 罰款有多少比例會給國庫10%會給國庫為什麼只有10%\n飛機掉了是國軍的損失萬一有人員的傷亡是最大的損失為什麼只有10%給國庫這是依照我們設置條例還有我們的這個這個部分我們希望可以收支是中科院的問題你說你有部分你有繳稅剛剛有聽到你們的說明你有繳稅或者每年要多少\n給國庫那是因為你從國家拿了這些錢跟這個罰則是不相關的今天如果漢翔你跟漢翔訂的商業合約他有罰款的話照理說他就有些必須要進國庫因為對於整個損失來說都是國家的就是我們國軍的不管人員也好不管飛機也好他掉了那然後咧\n而且這一架飛機是去年才交的而且它是國機國造它等於是我們的國防自主的一個典範那發生這樣的事這個部分我們完全全部就損失了這是第一點那第二點維護的合約是空軍直接跟漢想簽對不對是那像這樣子是簽類似中科院的協議書或者一般的商業合約\n有律定罰則嗎?或者他有究責條款嗎?維修的合約如果有問題的話有相關依照涉及合約的這個部分可以來執行嗎?我只要兩個答案一個就是他有沒有罰則第二個他有沒有究責條款回答這個就好在這個協議書裡面維修的條款都有這兩個都有?有罰款\n法款的部分報告委員這個我回去再查證再向你報告這兩個部分因為部長您是在法律上面的專業因為你在委制的部分有這個部分那是因為跟中科院 中科院在跟漢祥那現在如果是由空軍直接跟漢祥我相信這個部分也有必要去做一個\n一個規範萬一他維修你沒有把它做好這個甚至危害到人命的安全這非常重要就我的理解如果維修有失誤應該是可以救損失來加以求求長我們的合約沒有寫的話那就會非常的籠統這個部分他應該要清楚明白過去沒有不代表未來可以沒有\n因為我們這個不是F16F16我們沒有自主性你現在是國機國照這個全部都是由我們國內自己做的這個部分不管是委制也好 委修也好它都應該要有一個律定的一個罰則跟救責的一個條件\n應該有一個救我記得我的理解是有救責的機制我回去下去我確定以後我再跟委員做報告好謝謝那另外因為借一點點時間我們這一次國際國造飛機失事我們還是希望找出確切的原因因為我們從報告上面看起來他寫的這份報告就是人處無害的報告\n我們現在交給空軍的時候因為你提了四類十二項比如說報告上面所提出的因素有發動機系然後電源系電氣系燃油系這個都是獨立的系統它在兩個發動機都有如果全部系統在同一秒失效這個是奇蹟\n它能發生的機率幾乎是零可是我們在報告裡面看不出來我們到底找到什麼樣的原因你的4類12項本來在交給空軍的時候移交給空軍的時候這個本來就要檢查的第二個在起飛的時候在飛行的時候這些也都是必要的檢查項目所以你在報告裡面再重複檢查這些一點意義都沒有因為甚至我們不明白說你幹嘛要檢查華郵\n這個滑油它在發動機在動作的時候如果滑油有滲漏它就像那個拖一根煙囪一樣就像我們常常在雲上面可以看到那個像吃機油的車啦它會有排氣管會冒白煙所以如果像噴射發動機的話那是巨量的白煙比國慶表演那個那個\n那種視覺效果不會更差所以不可能不會發現可是我們在報告裡面看到的是這些我在這裡想要提出來\n要特別也請部長可以關注的部分因為事實上這一架飛機掉了還好沒有人員的傷亡可是檢查項目不能解釋我們在現在看不到啊我們今天特別開了一個我同意檢查項目不能夠解釋所以我們現在黑客是達到我們應該要盡快的確實\n部長我們希望黑盒子可以好好的去做判讀可是在沒有找到黑盒子之前今天還沒有排之前我們看不到尤其是這個報告我在這裡要特別提出來為什麼雙發動機同時失效它是已經發生了事實可是原因呢\n我們在這個部分黑盒子萬一真的都沒有找到我們也看不到這一次真正主要的原因到底是什麼所以我在這裡提醒一下包括空軍還有今天漢翔沒有來嗎今天漢翔有來為什麼漢翔沒有來因為漢翔是經濟部的\n不是 漢祥是製造還有維護我們永英號的主要的公司今天發生事情漢祥沒有派員來參加甚至如果有應該要發生的兩個都應該是要問他啊\n在這裡我們先提出來想要請教我們有沒有檢查低燃油的警告指示它有沒有問題這個黑盒子到時候可能也好好的判讀一下第二個油車油槽是否含水因為如果你們說那個發動機是新的\n至少不管它是不是歸零啦它至少在顯示上面它是新的那可能就是油箱的問題我為什麼今天會特別提出來希望空軍就這個部分要好好的去做一個檢查油車油廠是否有含水因為在\n這個當天要飛的時候他都應該要有油品品試測驗的這個記錄那飛機有沒有做雨林測試這個漢想也有因為我們剛剛提到如果不是發動機那可能是油箱的問題這我今天提到這幾點都是油箱跟油草的問題那飛機有沒有做雨林測試看看油箱口有沒有有效的防止滲水\n這個對於飛行安全非常重要如果這些通通沒有問題那表示漢翔可能在設計上面有一點問題這個就更嚴重了我們希望可以真的落實這個是國機國造而且是我們可以自主因為F16如果我們隨便要猜要看美方還不會同意可是這個都是從頭到尾都是我們自己做的沒有理由我們找不出原因這個對後續的飛行安全還有我們\n空軍所有的弟兄他們的非安也非常的重要希望可以把它查清楚這只是去年新交的心機發生這樣的事情沒有理由提供這樣的報告謝謝所以我們會盡快來釐清好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.465 --> 00:21.670\n是馬委員部長早部長今天因為我們有幾個議題那今天當然主要的是就我們國際國造的永英號的部分可是我們先談一個\n\n00:24.591 --> 00:39.414\n熊市專案就是我們看到在本月初在三月初的時候其實剛看到有媒體的報導才揭露他掛載在IDF戰機上面然後升空測試的這個畫面這個就有點像台積電剛辦完他發表\n\n00:51.226 --> 01:09.984\n研發出最先進然後最高端的這樣的晶片可是後來才發現四年前就已經有把裡面的機密洩漏給對手我們這個也是在月初你才掛載在我們的IDF上面可是現在才突然又爆出來說\n\n01:11.185 --> 01:18.008\n這個已經四年前就被空軍現退役的人員洩漏給解放軍這樣子的狀況我們在雖然現在已經進入司法程序可是我們當初沒有做行政調查嗎在行政調查已經發生什麼樣的問題難道不知道嗎這個未來要怎麼樣嚴防\n\n01:32.300 --> 01:57.152\n跟委員報告,就我們理解,現在有關這個所謂被洩漏這個IDF西瓜這個還有所謂的運用的這個部分是屬於在研發這個案之前的一個相關的學術的研討資料,它並不是真正我們的運用的資料啦它就我們的理解是這樣,鐘柯要不要再說明一下\n\n01:58.122 --> 02:10.424\n簡單就好了好不好因為你在這裡我想你也不會說明太多什麼是因為這個熊市專案它是一個科研案所以在這邊不方便說明但是這個幾年了熊市專案熊市專案是從111年開始111年111年開始現在114對那就如同剛剛委員指導的那在我們設計的這個過程中其實\n\n02:26.167 --> 02:43.930\n一些的數據還有一些的這個我們所謂到就PDRCDR我們有很多的研發的這個流程其實都還在作業階段那現在的這個只是在做一個空載的一個測試所以其實詳細的租源的數據應該是空載的測試表示我們已經做出來了\n\n02:44.751 --> 03:12.043\n所以現在講的這個是時間點我們現在是先提出來啦那未來如果有什麼樣的狀況再做討論我們要講的是你在現在已經掛上去了可是你應該很早就知道這個機密是有洩漏出去的到底有沒有影響我想這個我只是說明說應該是40年那個不會是洩漏現在我們真正的這些相關的機密部長設計的時候是最重要的\n\n03:13.504 --> 03:35.657\n這個部分沒有必要在這裡爭執這個部分如果它不重要那就不用辦了如果它重要你就要知道說我們做這個因為這個不是只有對岸想要包括美商都很想要我們熊二熊三我們的熊系列是我們最引以為傲的你今天如果發生這樣的事情如果我們還可以這麼不經意那對我們的\n\n03:38.759 --> 03:46.364\n未來的很多的製造會有很大的影響我們接到官兵檢舉以後我們立即啟動這個國安機制的調查所以我們現在今天會提出這個因為我們已經在調查不是說調查的問題而是這個會不會造成影響或者對我們這樣的製造那如果機密到底被掌握多少這可能對後續會有影響這個才是我們國防部或相關單位或中科院其實應該要去好好\n\n04:04.955 --> 04:28.881\n要進行評估但是說明我們立即知道以後就在112年那個當時我們就已經提出進行調查那現在是最近才起訴這樣那個部分我們有機會再來討論啦因為我覺得彈藥的部分可能後續還有非常多的問題那想要請教部長因為我們現在在永英號的部分我們\n\n04:30.121 --> 04:52.167\n製造跟後續的維護全部都是給漢祥嘛對不對那我們委制的部分是空軍跟中科院簽協議書那中科院跟漢祥是簽商業合約現在發生這樣的事情因為第一他延宕就是本來應該要給我們現在應該要到45架了\n\n04:56.450 --> 05:15.738\n47架可是現在目前才43架其實還有4架的一個落後那這個有沒有罰則中科院跟漢翔簽訂企業有預期交機的一個罰則那麼他會依照交付品項的單價的金額在每日簽文之一計法那以企業總的20%為上限有罰則嘛那像對我們國軍呢因為是我們空軍跟他簽的那這個罰則後來會給誰\n\n05:26.084 --> 05:37.308\n罰款華澤的部分中科院有說明罰款的部分會一定的比例有沒有給國軍目前照法令來講是沒有辦法什麼樣的法令會給國庫吧對會給國庫會給國庫還有繳稅怎麼樣給國庫罰款嗎我說的是罰款不是你正常的那個罰款有多少比例會給國庫10%會給國庫為什麼只有10%\n\n05:50.633 --> 05:54.434\n飛機掉了是國軍的損失萬一有人員的傷亡是最大的損失為什麼只有10%給國庫這是依照我們設置條例還有我們的這個這個部分我們希望可以收支是中科院的問題你說你有部分你有繳稅剛剛有聽到你們的說明你有繳稅或者每年要多少\n\n06:15.140 --> 06:36.488\n給國庫那是因為你從國家拿了這些錢跟這個罰則是不相關的今天如果漢翔你跟漢翔訂的商業合約他有罰款的話照理說他就有些必須要進國庫因為對於整個損失來說都是國家的就是我們國軍的不管人員也好不管飛機也好他掉了那然後咧\n\n06:38.849 --> 06:57.903\n而且這一架飛機是去年才交的而且它是國機國造它等於是我們的國防自主的一個典範那發生這樣的事這個部分我們完全全部就損失了這是第一點那第二點維護的合約是空軍直接跟漢想簽對不對是那像這樣子是簽類似中科院的協議書或者一般的商業合約\n\n07:07.213 --> 07:27.259\n有律定罰則嗎?或者他有究責條款嗎?維修的合約如果有問題的話有相關依照涉及合約的這個部分可以來執行嗎?我只要兩個答案一個就是他有沒有罰則第二個他有沒有究責條款回答這個就好在這個協議書裡面維修的條款都有這兩個都有?有罰款\n\n07:37.334 --> 07:56.919\n法款的部分報告委員這個我回去再查證再向你報告這兩個部分因為部長您是在法律上面的專業因為你在委制的部分有這個部分那是因為跟中科院中科院在跟漢祥那現在如果是由空軍直接跟漢祥我相信這個部分也有必要去做一個\n\n07:58.539 --> 08:13.292\n一個規範萬一他維修你沒有把它做好這個甚至危害到人命的安全這非常重要就我的理解如果維修有失誤應該是可以救損失來加以求求長我們的合約沒有寫的話那就會非常的籠統這個部分他應該要清楚明白過去沒有不代表未來可以沒有\n\n08:22.199 --> 08:38.887\n因為我們這個不是F16F16我們沒有自主性你現在是國機國照這個全部都是由我們國內自己做的這個部分不管是委制也好委修也好它都應該要有一個律定的一個罰則跟救責的一個條件\n\n08:40.507 --> 08:51.193\n應該有一個救我記得我的理解是有救責的機制我回去下去我確定以後我再跟委員做報告好謝謝那另外因為借一點點時間我們這一次國際國造飛機失事我們還是希望找出確切的原因因為我們從報告上面看起來他寫的這份報告就是人處無害的報告\n\n09:06.772 --> 09:26.414\n我們現在交給空軍的時候因為你提了四類十二項比如說報告上面所提出的因素有發動機系然後電源系電氣系燃油系這個都是獨立的系統它在兩個發動機都有如果全部系統在同一秒失效這個是奇蹟\n\n09:27.495 --> 09:40.957\n它能發生的機率幾乎是零可是我們在報告裡面看不出來我們到底找到什麼樣的原因你的4類12項本來在交給空軍的時候移交給空軍的時候這個本來就要檢查的第二個在起飛的時候在飛行的時候這些也都是必要的檢查項目所以你在報告裡面再重複檢查這些一點意義都沒有因為甚至我們不明白說你幹嘛要檢查華郵\n\n09:56.200 --> 10:04.525\n這個滑油它在發動機在動作的時候如果滑油有滲漏它就像那個拖一根煙囪一樣就像我們常常在雲上面可以看到那個像吃機油的車啦它會有排氣管會冒白煙所以如果像噴射發動機的話那是巨量的白煙比國慶表演那個那個\n\n10:17.913 --> 10:19.275\n那種視覺效果不會更差所以不可能不會發現可是我們在報告裡面看到的是這些我在這裡想要提出來\n\n10:28.393 --> 10:47.013\n要特別也請部長可以關注的部分因為事實上這一架飛機掉了還好沒有人員的傷亡可是檢查項目不能解釋我們在現在看不到啊我們今天特別開了一個我同意檢查項目不能夠解釋所以我們現在黑客是達到我們應該要盡快的確實\n\n10:50.196 --> 10:58.703\n部長我們希望黑盒子可以好好的去做判讀可是在沒有找到黑盒子之前今天還沒有排之前我們看不到尤其是這個報告我在這裡要特別提出來為什麼雙發動機同時失效它是已經發生了事實可是原因呢\n\n11:08.610 --> 11:19.733\n我們在這個部分黑盒子萬一真的都沒有找到我們也看不到這一次真正主要的原因到底是什麼所以我在這裡提醒一下包括空軍還有今天漢翔沒有來嗎今天漢翔有來為什麼漢翔沒有來因為漢翔是經濟部的\n\n11:28.649 --> 11:42.447\n不是漢祥是製造還有維護我們永英號的主要的公司今天發生事情漢祥沒有派員來參加甚至如果有應該要發生的兩個都應該是要問他啊\n\n11:45.811 --> 11:59.970\n在這裡我們先提出來想要請教我們有沒有檢查低燃油的警告指示它有沒有問題這個黑盒子到時候可能也好好的判讀一下第二個油車油槽是否含水因為如果你們說那個發動機是新的\n\n12:02.133 --> 12:15.089\n至少不管它是不是歸零啦它至少在顯示上面它是新的那可能就是油箱的問題我為什麼今天會特別提出來希望空軍就這個部分要好好的去做一個檢查油車油廠是否有含水因為在\n\n12:18.553 --> 12:21.954\n這個當天要飛的時候他都應該要有油品品試測驗的這個記錄那飛機有沒有做雨林測試這個漢想也有因為我們剛剛提到如果不是發動機那可能是油箱的問題這我今天提到這幾點都是油箱跟油草的問題那飛機有沒有做雨林測試看看油箱口有沒有有效的防止滲水\n\n12:43.843 --> 12:47.944\n這個對於飛行安全非常重要如果這些通通沒有問題那表示漢翔可能在設計上面有一點問題這個就更嚴重了我們希望可以真的落實這個是國機國造而且是我們可以自主因為F16如果我們隨便要猜要看美方還不會同意可是這個都是從頭到尾都是我們自己做的沒有理由我們找不出原因這個對後續的飛行安全還有我們\n\n13:11.750 --> 13:23.068\n空軍所有的弟兄他們的非安也非常的重要希望可以把它查清楚這只是去年新交的心機發生這樣的事情沒有理由提供這樣的報告謝謝所以我們會盡快來釐清好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.465,"end":21.67,"text":"是 馬委員部長早部長今天因為我們有幾個議題那今天當然主要的是就我們國際國造的永英號的部分可是我們先談一個"},{"start":24.591,"end":39.414,"text":"熊市專案就是我們看到在本月初在三月初的時候其實剛看到有媒體的報導才揭露他掛載在IDF戰機上面然後升空測試的這個畫面這個就有點像台積電剛辦完他發表"},{"start":51.226,"end":69.984,"text":"研發出最先進然後最高端的這樣的晶片可是後來才發現四年前就已經有把裡面的機密洩漏給對手我們這個也是在月初你才掛載在我們的IDF上面可是現在才突然又爆出來說"},{"start":71.185,"end":78.008,"text":"這個已經四年前就被空軍現退役的人員洩漏給解放軍這樣子的狀況我們在雖然現在已經進入司法程序可是我們當初沒有做行政調查嗎在行政調查已經發生什麼樣的問題難道不知道嗎這個未來要怎麼樣嚴防"},{"start":92.3,"end":117.152,"text":"跟委員報告,就我們理解,現在有關這個所謂被洩漏這個IDF西瓜這個還有所謂的運用的這個部分是屬於在研發這個案之前的一個相關的學術的研討資料,它並不是真正我們的運用的資料啦它就我們的理解是這樣,鐘柯要不要再說明一下"},{"start":118.122,"end":130.424,"text":"簡單就好了好不好因為你在這裡我想你也不會說明太多什麼是因為這個熊市專案它是一個科研案所以在這邊不方便說明但是這個幾年了熊市專案熊市專案是從111年開始111年111年開始現在114對那就如同剛剛委員指導的那在我們設計的這個過程中其實"},{"start":146.167,"end":163.93,"text":"一些的數據還有一些的這個我們所謂到就PDR CDR我們有很多的研發的這個流程其實都還在作業階段那現在的這個只是在做一個空載的一個測試所以其實詳細的租源的數據應該是空載的測試表示我們已經做出來了"},{"start":164.751,"end":192.043,"text":"所以現在講的這個是時間點我們現在是先提出來啦那未來如果有什麼樣的狀況再做討論我們要講的是你在現在已經掛上去了可是你應該很早就知道這個機密是有洩漏出去的到底有沒有影響我想這個我只是說明說應該是40年那個不會是洩漏現在我們真正的這些相關的機密部長設計的時候是最重要的"},{"start":193.504,"end":215.657,"text":"這個部分沒有必要在這裡爭執這個部分如果它不重要那就不用辦了如果它重要你就要知道說我們做這個因為這個不是只有對岸想要包括美商都很想要我們熊二熊三我們的熊系列是我們最引以為傲的你今天如果發生這樣的事情如果我們還可以這麼不經意那對我們的"},{"start":218.759,"end":226.364,"text":"未來的很多的製造會有很大的影響我們接到官兵檢舉以後我們立即啟動這個國安機制的調查所以我們現在今天會提出這個因為我們已經在調查不是說調查的問題而是這個會不會造成影響或者對我們這樣的製造那如果機密到底被掌握多少這可能對後續會有影響這個才是我們國防部或相關單位或中科院其實應該要去好好"},{"start":244.955,"end":268.881,"text":"要進行評估但是說明我們立即知道以後就在112年那個當時我們就已經提出進行調查那現在是最近才起訴這樣那個部分我們有機會再來討論啦因為我覺得彈藥的部分可能後續還有非常多的問題那想要請教部長因為我們現在在永英號的部分我們"},{"start":270.121,"end":292.167,"text":"製造跟後續的維護全部都是給漢祥嘛 對不對那我們委制的部分是空軍跟中科院簽協議書那中科院跟漢祥是簽商業合約現在發生這樣的事情因為第一他延宕就是本來應該要給我們現在應該要到45架了"},{"start":296.45,"end":315.738,"text":"47架可是現在目前才43架其實還有4架的一個落後那這個有沒有罰則中科院跟漢翔簽訂企業有預期交機的一個罰則那麼他會依照交付品項的單價的金額在每日簽文之一計法那以企業總的20%為上限有罰則嘛那像對我們國軍呢因為是我們空軍跟他簽的那這個罰則後來會給誰"},{"start":326.084,"end":337.308,"text":"罰款 華澤的部分中科院有說明罰款的部分會一定的比例有沒有給國軍目前照法令來講是沒有辦法什麼樣的法令會給國庫吧對 會給國庫會給國庫 還有繳稅怎麼樣給國庫 罰款嗎 我說的是罰款不是你正常的那個 罰款有多少比例會給國庫10%會給國庫為什麼只有10%"},{"start":350.633,"end":354.434,"text":"飛機掉了是國軍的損失萬一有人員的傷亡是最大的損失為什麼只有10%給國庫這是依照我們設置條例還有我們的這個這個部分我們希望可以收支是中科院的問題你說你有部分你有繳稅剛剛有聽到你們的說明你有繳稅或者每年要多少"},{"start":375.14,"end":396.488,"text":"給國庫那是因為你從國家拿了這些錢跟這個罰則是不相關的今天如果漢翔你跟漢翔訂的商業合約他有罰款的話照理說他就有些必須要進國庫因為對於整個損失來說都是國家的就是我們國軍的不管人員也好不管飛機也好他掉了那然後咧"},{"start":398.849,"end":417.903,"text":"而且這一架飛機是去年才交的而且它是國機國造它等於是我們的國防自主的一個典範那發生這樣的事這個部分我們完全全部就損失了這是第一點那第二點維護的合約是空軍直接跟漢想簽對不對是那像這樣子是簽類似中科院的協議書或者一般的商業合約"},{"start":427.213,"end":447.259,"text":"有律定罰則嗎?或者他有究責條款嗎?維修的合約如果有問題的話有相關依照涉及合約的這個部分可以來執行嗎?我只要兩個答案一個就是他有沒有罰則第二個他有沒有究責條款回答這個就好在這個協議書裡面維修的條款都有這兩個都有?有罰款"},{"start":457.334,"end":476.919,"text":"法款的部分報告委員這個我回去再查證再向你報告這兩個部分因為部長您是在法律上面的專業因為你在委制的部分有這個部分那是因為跟中科院 中科院在跟漢祥那現在如果是由空軍直接跟漢祥我相信這個部分也有必要去做一個"},{"start":478.539,"end":493.292,"text":"一個規範萬一他維修你沒有把它做好這個甚至危害到人命的安全這非常重要就我的理解如果維修有失誤應該是可以救損失來加以求求長我們的合約沒有寫的話那就會非常的籠統這個部分他應該要清楚明白過去沒有不代表未來可以沒有"},{"start":502.199,"end":518.887,"text":"因為我們這個不是F16F16我們沒有自主性你現在是國機國照這個全部都是由我們國內自己做的這個部分不管是委制也好 委修也好它都應該要有一個律定的一個罰則跟救責的一個條件"},{"start":520.507,"end":531.193,"text":"應該有一個救我記得我的理解是有救責的機制我回去下去我確定以後我再跟委員做報告好謝謝那另外因為借一點點時間我們這一次國際國造飛機失事我們還是希望找出確切的原因因為我們從報告上面看起來他寫的這份報告就是人處無害的報告"},{"start":546.772,"end":566.414,"text":"我們現在交給空軍的時候因為你提了四類十二項比如說報告上面所提出的因素有發動機系然後電源系電氣系燃油系這個都是獨立的系統它在兩個發動機都有如果全部系統在同一秒失效這個是奇蹟"},{"start":567.495,"end":580.957,"text":"它能發生的機率幾乎是零可是我們在報告裡面看不出來我們到底找到什麼樣的原因你的4類12項本來在交給空軍的時候移交給空軍的時候這個本來就要檢查的第二個在起飛的時候在飛行的時候這些也都是必要的檢查項目所以你在報告裡面再重複檢查這些一點意義都沒有因為甚至我們不明白說你幹嘛要檢查華郵"},{"start":596.2,"end":604.525,"text":"這個滑油它在發動機在動作的時候如果滑油有滲漏它就像那個拖一根煙囪一樣就像我們常常在雲上面可以看到那個像吃機油的車啦它會有排氣管會冒白煙所以如果像噴射發動機的話那是巨量的白煙比國慶表演那個那個"},{"start":617.913,"end":619.275,"text":"那種視覺效果不會更差所以不可能不會發現可是我們在報告裡面看到的是這些我在這裡想要提出來"},{"start":628.393,"end":647.013,"text":"要特別也請部長可以關注的部分因為事實上這一架飛機掉了還好沒有人員的傷亡可是檢查項目不能解釋我們在現在看不到啊我們今天特別開了一個我同意檢查項目不能夠解釋所以我們現在黑客是達到我們應該要盡快的確實"},{"start":650.196,"end":658.703,"text":"部長我們希望黑盒子可以好好的去做判讀可是在沒有找到黑盒子之前今天還沒有排之前我們看不到尤其是這個報告我在這裡要特別提出來為什麼雙發動機同時失效它是已經發生了事實可是原因呢"},{"start":668.61,"end":679.733,"text":"我們在這個部分黑盒子萬一真的都沒有找到我們也看不到這一次真正主要的原因到底是什麼所以我在這裡提醒一下包括空軍還有今天漢翔沒有來嗎今天漢翔有來為什麼漢翔沒有來因為漢翔是經濟部的"},{"start":688.649,"end":702.447,"text":"不是 漢祥是製造還有維護我們永英號的主要的公司今天發生事情漢祥沒有派員來參加甚至如果有應該要發生的兩個都應該是要問他啊"},{"start":705.811,"end":719.97,"text":"在這裡我們先提出來想要請教我們有沒有檢查低燃油的警告指示它有沒有問題這個黑盒子到時候可能也好好的判讀一下第二個油車油槽是否含水因為如果你們說那個發動機是新的"},{"start":722.133,"end":735.089,"text":"至少不管它是不是歸零啦它至少在顯示上面它是新的那可能就是油箱的問題我為什麼今天會特別提出來希望空軍就這個部分要好好的去做一個檢查油車油廠是否有含水因為在"},{"start":738.553,"end":741.954,"text":"這個當天要飛的時候他都應該要有油品品試測驗的這個記錄那飛機有沒有做雨林測試這個漢想也有因為我們剛剛提到如果不是發動機那可能是油箱的問題這我今天提到這幾點都是油箱跟油草的問題那飛機有沒有做雨林測試看看油箱口有沒有有效的防止滲水"},{"start":763.843,"end":767.944,"text":"這個對於飛行安全非常重要如果這些通通沒有問題那表示漢翔可能在設計上面有一點問題這個就更嚴重了我們希望可以真的落實這個是國機國造而且是我們可以自主因為F16如果我們隨便要猜要看美方還不會同意可是這個都是從頭到尾都是我們自己做的沒有理由我們找不出原因這個對後續的飛行安全還有我們"},{"start":791.75,"end":803.068,"text":"空軍所有的弟兄他們的非安也非常的重要希望可以把它查清楚這只是去年新交的心機發生這樣的事情沒有理由提供這樣的報告謝謝所以我們會盡快來釐清好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":306,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時25分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["顧部長立雄：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長早。今天有安排幾個議題，當然主要的是我們國機國造勇鷹號的部分，可是我們先來談雄鷙專案，在本(3)月初的時候，經媒體報導後才揭露它掛載在IDF戰機上面，然後也有升空測試的畫面。這個就有點像台積電剛又發表了他們研發出最先進、最高端的晶片，可是後來才發現4年前就已經有人把裡面的機密洩漏給對手，而這個案例也是，月初才掛載在我們的IDF上面，可是現在又突然爆出，這個在4年前就已經被空軍現退役人員洩漏給解放軍，針對這樣子的狀況，雖然現在已經進入司法程序，可是我們當初沒有做行政調查嗎？在行政調查時，針對已經發生了什麼樣的問題，難道會不知道嗎？這個部分未來要怎麼樣嚴防？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，就我們的理解，現在有關所謂被洩漏IDF攜掛，還有所謂運用的部分，是屬於在研發這個案子前的一個相關學術研討之外，它並不是我們真正運用的資料，就我們的理解是這樣，請中科院說明一下。"],["馬委員文君：簡單說明就好了，因為在這裡我想你也不會說明太多。"],["程副院長一誠：因為雄鷙專案是一個科研案，所以在這邊不方便說明，但是這個時間點……"],["馬委員文君：這個雄鷙專案有幾年了？"],["程副院長一誠：雄鷙專案是從111年開始。"],["馬委員文君：現在是114年。"],["程副院長一誠：對，就如同剛剛委員指導的，在我們設計的過程中，其實一些的數據還有一些所謂的PDR、CDR，我們有很多研發的流程，其實都還在作業階段，現在只是在做一個空載的測試，所以詳細的術研數據應該是沒有什麼問題的。"],["馬委員文君：有空載的測試，表示我們已經做出來了，所以現在講的是時間點，我們現在是先提出來，未來如果有什麼樣狀況時再來做討論。我們要講的是，現在已經掛上去了，可是你應該很早就知道這個機密是有洩漏出去的，到底有沒有影響？我想這個部分中科院要好好的說明清楚。"],["顧部長立雄：我只是要說明，4年前那個情況不會是洩漏現在我們真正相關的這些機密。"],["馬委員文君：部長，設計的時候是最重要的，我想沒有必要在這裡爭執這個部分，如果它不重要，那就不用辦了；如果它重要，你就要知道，因為這不是只有對岸想要，包括美商都很想要，我們雄二、雄三、雄系列是我們最引以為傲的，今天如果發生這樣的事情，如果我們還可以這麼不經意，那對我們未來很多的製造，會有很大的影響……"],["顧部長立雄：我們沒有不經意，我們在接到官兵檢舉以後，就立即啟動國安機制的調查。"],["馬委員文君：我們今天會提出這個，是因為已經在調查了，且不是調查的問題，而是這個會不會造成影響，或者對我們這樣的製造，包括機密到底被掌握多少，這在後續可能會有影響，這個才是我們國防部、中科院或相關單位應該要好好掌握的。"],["顧部長立雄：我們要進行評估，但是說明一下，我們立即知道以後，在112年的那個當時就已經進行調查，然後是最近才起訴，情況是這樣。"],["馬委員文君：好，那個部分我們有機會再來討論，因為我覺得彈藥的部分，可能後續還有非常多的問題。","想要請教部長，現在勇鷹號的製造跟後續維護，全部都是給漢翔，對不對？我們委製的部分是空軍跟中科院簽協議書，中科院跟漢翔簽商業合約，現在發生這樣的事情，第一，它延宕了，本來應該要給我們47架，可是目前才43架，其實還有4架的落後，這個部分有沒有罰則？"],["顧部長立雄：中科院跟漢翔簽訂契約有逾期交機的罰則，它會依照交付品項單價的金額每日千分之一計罰，以契約總額百分之二十為上限。"],["馬委員文君：部長，這有罰則嘛？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["馬委員文君：因為這是我們空軍跟它簽的，而這個罰款後來會給誰？"],["顧部長立雄：罰則的部分，剛剛中科院有說明。"],["程副院長一誠：罰款的部分會有一定的比例……"],["馬委員文君：有沒有給國軍呢？"],["程副院長一誠：目前照法令來講是沒有辦法。"],["馬委員文君：什麼樣的法令？"],["顧部長立雄：應該會給國庫。"],["程副院長一誠：對，會給國庫，還有繳稅。"],["馬委員文君：怎麼樣給國庫？我說的是罰款，不是你正常該給的，所以那個罰款有多少比例會給國庫？"],["程副院長一誠：10%會給國庫。"],["馬委員文君：為什麼只有10%？飛機掉了是國軍的損失，萬一有人員的傷亡則是最大的損失，為什麼只有10%給國庫？"],["程副院長一誠：這是依照我們的設置條例還有收支辦法。"],["馬委員文君：收支是中科院的問題，剛剛的說明中有稍微聽到你們有繳稅，或者每年要繳多少給國庫，那是因為你從國家拿了這些錢，跟這個罰則是不相關的。今天如果你跟漢翔訂的商業合約有罰款的話，照理說，有些就必須進國庫，因為對於整個來說，都是國家的損失，就是我們國軍的損失，不管人員也好，不管飛機也好，若掉了，然後呢？而且這一架飛機是去年才交機的，而且它是國機國造，等於是我們國防自主的一個典範，發生了這樣的事，我們全部就這樣損失了，這是第一點。","第二點，維護的合約是空軍直接跟漢翔簽的，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["馬委員文君：這樣子是簽類似中科院的協議書或者一般的商業合約，有律定罰則嗎？或者它有究責條款嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：維修的合約如果有問題的話，有相關依照涉及合約的這個部分可以來執行，這個部分是不是請空軍來說明？"],["馬委員文君：簡單回答，我只要兩個答案，第一個就是它有沒有罰則？第二個，它有沒有究責條款？回答這個就好，就是在這個協議書裡面。"],["王參謀長德揚：維修的條款都有。"],["馬委員文君：這兩個都有？"],["王參謀長德揚：是。"],["馬委員文君：有罰款？"],["王參謀長德揚：報告委員，罰款的部分我回去再查證、再向您報告。"],["馬委員文君：就這兩個部分，因為部長有法律上面的專業，而委製的部分，是我們跟中科院簽，中科院再跟漢翔簽，現在如果是由空軍直接跟漢翔簽，我相信這個部分也有必要去做一個規範，萬一它維修沒有做好，這個甚至會危害到人命的安全，所以這個非常重要。"],["顧部長立雄：就我的理解，如果維修有失誤，應該是可以就損失來加以求償。"],["馬委員文君：可是我們的合約沒有寫的話，那就會非常的籠統，這個部分應該要清楚明白，過去沒有不代表未來可以沒有，因為這個不是F-16，F-16我們沒有自主性，你現在是國機國造，全部都是由我們國內自己做的，這個部分不管是委製也好，委修也好，都應該要有一個律定的罰則跟究責的條件，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：就我記得、我的理解，是有究責的機制，我下去確定以後再跟委員做報告。"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝。","另外，再借一點點時間，這一次國機國造的飛機失事，我們還是希望找出確切的原因，但從報告上面看起來，寫的這份報告就是一個人畜無害的報告，我們現在交給空軍的時候，因為你提到4類12項，比如說，報告上面所提出的因素有發動機系，然後有電源系、電氣系、燃油系，這些都是獨立的系統，它在兩個發動機都有，如果全部系統在同一秒失效，這個是奇蹟，它能發生的機率幾乎是零，可是我們在報告裡面看不出來到底找到什麼樣的原因，你說的4類12項，本來在移交給空軍的時候就應該要檢查。第二個，在起飛的時候、在飛行的時候，這些也都是必要的檢查項目，所以你在報告裡面說再重複檢查這一些，一點意義都沒有，甚至我們不明白你幹嘛要檢查滑油，當發動機在動作的時候，如果滑油有滲漏，就會像拖一根煙囪一樣，我們常常在雲上面可以看到，就像吃機油的車也會有排氣管冒白煙的情形，如果是噴射發動機的話，那是有巨量的白煙，和國慶表演時那種視覺效果比起來不會更差，所以不可能不被發現，可是我們在報告裡面看到的是這些。所以我在這裡想要提出來請部長特別關注的部分，事實上，這一架飛機掉了，還好沒有人員傷亡，可是對檢查項目不能解釋，我們現在看不到啊！我們今天特別開這一個會議。"],["顧部長立雄：是，我同意，檢查項目不能夠解釋，我們現在已經打撈到黑盒子，我們應該要儘快的解析。"],["馬委員文君：好，部長，我們希望對黑盒子可以好好的去做判讀，可是在沒有找到黑盒子之前，還沒有排今天這個會議之前，我們看不到，尤其是針對這個報告，我在這裡要特別提出來，雙發動機同時失效是已經發生的事實，可是原因是什麼呢？萬一真的都沒有找到黑盒子，我們也看不到這一次真正主要的原因到底是什麼。所以我在這裡提醒一下，包括空軍……今天漢翔沒有來嗎？今天漢翔有來嗎？為什麼漢翔沒有來？"],["顧部長立雄：因為漢翔是經濟部的……"],["馬委員文君：漢翔是製造還有維護我們勇鷹號主要的公司，今天發生這種事情，漢翔沒有派員來參加，甚至如果有要發生的，兩個都應該是要問他，在這裡我們先提出來，想要請教我們有沒有檢查低燃油的警告指示？它有沒有問題？對黑盒子到時候可能也要好好的判讀一下。第二個，油車、油槽是否含水，因為如果像你們所說那個發動機是新的，不管它是不是歸零，至少在顯示上面它是新的，那可能就是油箱的問題。我為什麼今天會特別提出來？就是希望空軍就這個部分要好好的去做檢查，看油車、油槽是否有含水，因為在當天要飛的時候，都應該要有油品測驗的紀錄，那飛機有沒有做雨淋測試，這個部分漢翔也有，就像我們剛剛提到的，如果不是發動機，那可能是油箱的問題。我今天提到的這幾點都是油箱跟油槽的問題，那飛機有沒有做雨淋測試看看油箱口是否能有效的防止滲水，這個對於飛行安全非常重要。如果這些通通沒有問題，那表示漢翔可能在設計上面有一點問題，這個就更嚴重了！我們希望可以真的落實國機國造，而且也是我們可以自主，因為F-16如果我們隨便要拆、要看，美方還不會同意，可是這個從頭到尾都是我們自己做的，我們沒有理由找不出原因，這個對後續的飛行安全還有我們空軍所有弟兄的飛安也非常的重要，所以希望可以把它查清楚，這只是去年新交的新機，發生了這樣的事情，沒有理由提供這樣的報告，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：是，我們會儘快來釐清。"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君的發言，請參謀長請漢翔公司補正資料給馬文君委員。","剛才已經宣告部長要請假離開，接下來由鍾副部長來代理。","接下來請徐巧芯委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-2","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳冠廷","林楚茵","陳永康","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","徐巧芯","黃國昌","邱志偉","林憶君","王定宇","羅智強"],"page_start":83,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告「國機國造交機進度及勇鷹高教機失事後檢修情況」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00002"}}}