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575.873, \"end\": 575.974, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 575.974, \"end\": 575.994, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,492 --> 00:00:13,357\n主席我想請代理主委陳主委陳主委你好\n\n2\n00:00:15,743 --> 00:00:22,189\n相信你一定知道台積電在3月4號宣布對美投資1000億美元相當於3兆多的台幣那總投資金額已經超過台灣一整年的總預算要在美國興建三座新的晶圓廠那兩座先進的封裝廠及一座主要的研發團隊中心這個投資案是美國史上規模最大的單向外國直接投資案\n\n3\n00:00:44,127 --> 00:01:02,534\n想請問主委您覺得這個投資是利多還是利空呢對台灣來說我想這是企業經驗的自由啦我也很難去評估利多利少不過因為企業走出國際做多元化的投資這本來就是企業他基於自己的考慮會做的好主委我想你可能不方便發表太多意見那\n\n4\n00:01:04,214 --> 00:01:29,842\n我就問一點跟公平會有關的事情依照昨天最新的消息台積電已經向美國晶片設計商輝達跟超維還有博通提議投資一間負責Intel晶圓廠的合資企業那其中台積電的持股比例不會超過50%那公平會現在有掌握任何這方面的情資嗎\n\n5\n00:01:31,465 --> 00:01:51,945\n我們對台積電最近的一些投資作我們是有一些了解跟掌握了那至於從本會的立場來講像剛剛委員談到這些合作的模式我們會進一步先去判斷到底算不算是公平法裡面的結合的樣子是符合結合以後我們才有可能去進行相關的審查是這就是本席想要理解的就是說假設\n\n6\n00:01:53,047 --> 00:02:16,768\n這個情境分析台積電真的負責這個Intel晶圓代工部門的營運那不管是他是投資入股技術入股或者是由台積電找其他的廠商共同承接Intel在美國的這個先進封裝事業等等的情況之下會不會去符合你們事業結合的這個公平交易法第10條的結合呢\n\n7\n00:02:18,630 --> 00:02:36,983\n我們當然就是要看將來假設真的有合作的關係我們會看他具體的內容來判斷是不是符合我們公平法第10條各款的結合太陽那他們兩間公司的這個年銷售額都超過公平會規定的400億台幣那依法要向公平會申報假設未來公平會獲得申報之後要做哪些要件的檢視呢審視呢\n\n8\n00:02:43,547 --> 00:03:08,658\n如果前提是它符合結合定義以後然後營業門檻超過接下來我們就看它的合作關係到底是競爭者之間的水平合作還是上下游業者的垂直合作那我們的審查架構不太一樣水平競爭者的審查標準那在什麼情況之下公平會會做出禁止結合的決議呢簡單來講原則上來講就是縣市競爭的不利大於整體經濟利益\n\n9\n00:03:09,978 --> 00:03:36,091\n就是對市場的競爭限制程度大於整體經濟體所以就是你們也有掌握他們現在的最新的情資所以你們會持續不斷的繼續關心這件事情關心的重點當然是從公平法特別是結合這個部分我們會持續觀察他的走向還有發展等於希望你們可以主動積極甚至也不排除是不是能夠邀請他們到公平會來說明會不會請他們來喝咖啡呢\n\n10\n00:03:39,588 --> 00:04:09,308\n我們不行我們大概比較不適合去喝咖啡但是就是我們其實基本上請業者來大概就是有案子已經成立了我們才會啟動這樣的程序因為台積電是台灣的國本是我們的護國神山他應該更積極審慎的去面對他對外的投資那政府呢包括公平會應該站在維護國家利益跟法益的立場審慎的來處理本案那所以呢本席也希望說搞不好\n\n11\n00:04:09,828 --> 00:04:23,280\n你公平會不需要站在一個被動的立場啊你可以主動積極啊邀請他來討論啊邀請他來update一些資訊啊這一點因為目前這些發展基本上大部分都是媒體上在轉載了所以我們會看\n\n12\n00:04:25,502 --> 00:04:35,668\n會持續觀察啦看情況是不是已經大概真的具體成形我們後續再來所以也希望公平會不要站在一個被動的角度而且是主動積極既然你已經媒體看到訊息啦你應該是有主動出擊的權利啊也可以去邀請他們來了解一下說到底目前狀況是怎麼回事\n\n13\n00:04:45,453 --> 00:05:01,991\n等於是你在主動積極的過程當中其實你也是在協助他理解說政府的法規跟他如果要去完成他想要做的事情是不是哪一些地方要配合我們公平會的這個規定呢是我們會看這個整個事件未來發展情況怎麼樣剛剛委員建議我們會納入會有會審慎的考慮\n\n14\n00:05:04,974 --> 00:05:31,199\n包括說我記得幾年前有這個衛生紙之亂啊你們那時候不是很主動積極嗎我覺得這個是可以借鏡的嘛怎麼會台積電這麼重要的一個公司對台灣這麼重要的一件事情然後你們只是透過報紙瞭解你們完全不知道你們扮演的角色這不應該啊所以剛剛路委員報告我們就是要看他的事件的發展到什麼程度啦因為有時候企業剛開始在規劃的時候如果我們貿然就邀請他們來做談這個問題\n\n15\n00:05:33,419 --> 00:06:00,637\n有時候就像剛剛跟你講有時候是媒體上在報導這樣的一個消息那是不是真的會這樣做會做到什麼程度這個是我們要考慮當然本席當然是期待你們要有更多的積極作為然後能夠密切掌握最新的情況這才是對台灣人民負責任那我再接下來請問一下現在台灣詐騙橫行這個主委主委知道一年度我們台灣人民被詐騙的金額大概是多少嗎一年喔對啊\n\n16\n00:06:04,164 --> 00:06:32,890\n應該上百億以上太客氣了我跟你說一千八百多億而且我們能夠扣押的只有一百四十幾億不到十分之一所以你這樣除起來你知道平均一天被詐騙幾億嗎四至五億所以你知道公平會扮演的角色非常重要不實的廣告尤其現在橫行五組這些不實廣告橫行五組請問公平會可以扮演什麼角色呢\n\n17\n00:06:33,832 --> 00:07:01,262\n當然就像委員剛剛講的不實廣告就是我們的執法的重點就是但是有很多的詐騙的一些所謂的廣告其實它本質不是廣告它其實單純就是要騙錢那這種詐騙的行為基本上我們會移轉給檢調機關來進行其實呢上個會期有很多委員也提到過那上個會期當然是李主委啦但是現在換了新的這個代理主委我們也希望有個新的氣象很多\n\n18\n00:07:02,282 --> 00:07:15,110\n民眾就是誤信了不實廣告才下單所以不實廣告它本身就是一種詐騙啊我記得今年行政院有發布就是更新這個打詐綱領2.0啊代理主委知道打詐綱領2.0有幾個重點嗎\n\n19\n00:07:21,462 --> 00:07:24,144\n好你不知道我講市詐賭詐主詐懲詐還有防詐其實防詐就是公平會的這個這個一個重要的業務才對啊怎麼樣讓不實廣告可以下架是不是\n\n20\n00:07:39,833 --> 00:07:58,800\n是不是可以善用這個公平交易法第21條打臉書跟購物網站不實廣告其實這些都很重要耶這是賭詐的部分你們好像有這個權利有這個責任但是不大願意去使用啊我想請問代理主委公平會一年因為廣告不實開罰到底有幾件\n\n21\n00:08:03,735 --> 00:08:11,183\n目前在去年來講的話我們有63件是63件那近10年喔你自己看這個數據上近10年其實平均每年開罰不到不到60件平均50.5件你要想啊我們是全台灣整年被詐騙1800多億耶\n\n22\n00:08:24,818 --> 00:08:29,708\n一天詐騙四至五億結果你這麼被動你一年才開罰不到六十件你覺得這合理嗎\n\n23\n00:08:34,652 --> 00:08:55,542\n我想我們都積極的在查處這些相關的不實廣告但是案子一進來以後在法律底下當然就是有一些法律上的要件要走所以我必須要講你們的書面報告上面寫說不實廣告你們主動去查查而且呢不遺餘力而且派員主動去查我想要知道你們到底派了幾個人一個兩個還是三個這個\n\n24\n00:09:02,757 --> 00:09:20,623\n主動查查我們通常就是業務單位會按照那個案件就是不知道所以我覺得主委這個變成是你公平會重要的業務你應該更落實去掌握說到底有哪些人是主動在查這些東西你們派的到底有哪些人你不能說派員你如果一個兩個你也說派員而且不遺餘力結果這樣的開罰開罰數\n\n25\n00:09:27,766 --> 00:09:35,994\n離不遺餘力應該有很大的進步空間吧我在這裡喔特別跟主委提醒喔現在真的是公平會可以好好發揮的時候了好嗎好謝謝謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6492\t13357\t主席我想請代理主委陳主委陳主委你好\n15743\t22189\t相信你一定知道台積電在3月4號宣布對美投資1000億美元相當於3兆多的台幣那總投資金額已經超過台灣一整年的總預算要在美國興建三座新的晶圓廠那兩座先進的封裝廠及一座主要的研發團隊中心這個投資案是美國史上規模最大的單向外國直接投資案\n44127\t62534\t想請問主委您覺得這個投資是利多還是利空呢對台灣來說我想這是企業經驗的自由啦我也很難去評估利多利少不過因為企業走出國際做多元化的投資這本來就是企業他基於自己的考慮會做的好主委我想你可能不方便發表太多意見那\n64214\t89842\t我就問一點跟公平會有關的事情依照昨天最新的消息台積電已經向美國晶片設計商輝達跟超維還有博通提議投資一間負責Intel晶圓廠的合資企業那其中台積電的持股比例不會超過50%那公平會現在有掌握任何這方面的情資嗎\n91465\t111945\t我們對台積電最近的一些投資作我們是有一些了解跟掌握了那至於從本會的立場來講像剛剛委員談到這些合作的模式我們會進一步先去判斷到底算不算是公平法裡面的結合的樣子是符合結合以後我們才有可能去進行相關的審查是這就是本席想要理解的就是說假設\n113047\t136768\t這個情境分析台積電真的負責這個Intel晶圓代工部門的營運那不管是他是投資入股技術入股或者是由台積電找其他的廠商共同承接Intel在美國的這個先進封裝事業等等的情況之下會不會去符合你們事業結合的這個公平交易法第10條的結合呢\n138630\t156983\t我們當然就是要看將來假設真的有合作的關係我們會看他具體的內容來判斷是不是符合我們公平法第10條各款的結合太陽那他們兩間公司的這個年銷售額都超過公平會規定的400億台幣那依法要向公平會申報假設未來公平會獲得申報之後要做哪些要件的檢視呢 審視呢\n163547\t188658\t如果前提是它符合結合定義以後然後營業門檻超過接下來我們就看它的合作關係到底是競爭者之間的水平合作還是上下游業者的垂直合作那我們的審查架構不太一樣水平競爭者的審查標準那在什麼情況之下公平會會做出禁止結合的決議呢簡單來講原則上來講就是縣市競爭的不利大於整體經濟利益\n189978\t216091\t就是對市場的競爭限制程度大於整體經濟體所以就是你們也有掌握他們現在的最新的情資所以你們會持續不斷的繼續關心這件事情關心的重點當然是從公平法特別是結合這個部分我們會持續觀察他的走向還有發展等於希望你們可以主動積極甚至也不排除是不是能夠邀請他們到公平會來說明會不會請他們來喝咖啡呢\n219588\t249308\t我們不行我們大概比較不適合去喝咖啡但是就是我們其實基本上請業者來大概就是有案子已經成立了我們才會啟動這樣的程序因為台積電是台灣的國本是我們的護國神山他應該更積極審慎的去面對他對外的投資那政府呢包括公平會應該站在維護國家利益跟法益的立場審慎的來處理本案那所以呢本席也希望說搞不好\n249828\t263280\t你公平會不需要站在一個被動的立場啊你可以主動積極啊邀請他來討論啊邀請他來update一些資訊啊這一點因為目前這些發展基本上大部分都是媒體上在轉載了所以我們會看\n265502\t275668\t會持續觀察啦看情況是不是已經大概真的具體成形我們後續再來所以也希望公平會不要站在一個被動的角度而且是主動積極既然你已經媒體看到訊息啦你應該是有主動出擊的權利啊也可以去邀請他們來了解一下說到底目前狀況是怎麼回事\n285453\t301991\t等於是你在主動積極的過程當中其實你也是在協助他理解說政府的法規跟他如果要去完成他想要做的事情是不是哪一些地方要配合我們公平會的這個規定呢是我們會看這個整個事件未來發展情況怎麼樣剛剛委員建議我們會納入會有會審慎的考慮\n304974\t331199\t包括說我記得幾年前有這個衛生紙之亂啊你們那時候不是很主動積極嗎我覺得這個是可以借鏡的嘛怎麼會台積電這麼重要的一個公司對台灣這麼重要的一件事情然後你們只是透過報紙瞭解你們完全不知道你們扮演的角色這不應該啊所以剛剛路委員報告我們就是要看他的事件的發展到什麼程度啦因為有時候企業剛開始在規劃的時候如果我們貿然就邀請他們來做談這個問題\n333419\t360637\t有時候就像剛剛跟你講有時候是媒體上在報導這樣的一個消息那是不是真的會這樣做會做到什麼程度這個是我們要考慮當然本席當然是期待你們要有更多的積極作為然後能夠密切掌握最新的情況這才是對台灣人民負責任那我再接下來請問一下現在台灣詐騙橫行這個主委主委知道一年度我們台灣人民被詐騙的金額大概是多少嗎一年喔對啊\n364164\t392890\t應該上百億以上太客氣了 我跟你說一千八百多億而且我們能夠扣押的只有一百四十幾億不到十分之一所以你這樣除起來你知道平均一天被詐騙幾億嗎四至五億所以你知道公平會扮演的角色非常重要不實的廣告尤其現在橫行五組這些不實廣告橫行五組請問公平會可以扮演什麼角色呢\n393832\t421262\t當然就像委員剛剛講的不實廣告就是我們的執法的重點就是但是有很多的詐騙的一些所謂的廣告其實它本質不是廣告它其實單純就是要騙錢那這種詐騙的行為基本上我們會移轉給檢調機關來進行其實呢上個會期有很多委員也提到過那上個會期當然是李主委啦但是現在換了新的這個代理主委我們也希望有個新的氣象很多\n422282\t435110\t民眾就是誤信了不實廣告才下單所以不實廣告它本身就是一種詐騙啊我記得今年行政院有發布就是更新這個打詐綱領2.0啊代理主委知道打詐綱領2.0有幾個重點嗎\n441462\t444144\t好你不知道我講市詐賭詐主詐懲詐還有防詐其實防詐就是公平會的這個這個一個重要的業務才對啊怎麼樣讓不實廣告可以下架是不是\n459833\t478800\t是不是可以善用這個公平交易法第21條打臉書跟購物網站不實廣告其實這些都很重要耶這是賭詐的部分你們好像有這個權利有這個責任但是不大願意去使用啊我想請問代理主委公平會一年因為廣告不實開罰到底有幾件\n483735\t491183\t目前在去年來講的話我們有63件是63件那近10年喔你自己看這個數據上近10年其實平均每年開罰不到不到60件平均50.5件你要想啊我們是全台灣整年被詐騙1800多億耶\n504818\t509708\t一天詐騙四至五億結果你這麼被動你一年才開罰不到六十件你覺得這合理嗎\n514652\t535542\t我想我們都積極的在查處這些相關的不實廣告但是案子一進來以後在法律底下當然就是有一些法律上的要件要走所以我必須要講你們的書面報告上面寫說不實廣告你們主動去查查而且呢不遺餘力而且派員主動去查我想要知道你們到底派了幾個人一個兩個還是三個這個\n542757\t560623\t主動查查我們通常就是業務單位會按照那個案件就是不知道所以我覺得主委這個變成是你公平會重要的業務你應該更落實去掌握說到底有哪些人是主動在查這些東西你們派的到底有哪些人你不能說派員你如果一個兩個你也說派員而且不遺餘力結果這樣的開罰開罰數\n567766\t575994\t離不遺餘力 應該有很大的進步空間吧我在這裡喔 特別跟主委提醒喔現在真的是公平會可以好好發揮的時候了 好嗎好 謝謝 謝謝委員\n","txt":"主席我想請代理主委陳主委陳主委你好\n相信你一定知道台積電在3月4號宣布對美投資1000億美元相當於3兆多的台幣那總投資金額已經超過台灣一整年的總預算要在美國興建三座新的晶圓廠那兩座先進的封裝廠及一座主要的研發團隊中心這個投資案是美國史上規模最大的單向外國直接投資案\n想請問主委您覺得這個投資是利多還是利空呢對台灣來說我想這是企業經驗的自由啦我也很難去評估利多利少不過因為企業走出國際做多元化的投資這本來就是企業他基於自己的考慮會做的好主委我想你可能不方便發表太多意見那\n我就問一點跟公平會有關的事情依照昨天最新的消息台積電已經向美國晶片設計商輝達跟超維還有博通提議投資一間負責Intel晶圓廠的合資企業那其中台積電的持股比例不會超過50%那公平會現在有掌握任何這方面的情資嗎\n我們對台積電最近的一些投資作我們是有一些了解跟掌握了那至於從本會的立場來講像剛剛委員談到這些合作的模式我們會進一步先去判斷到底算不算是公平法裡面的結合的樣子是符合結合以後我們才有可能去進行相關的審查是這就是本席想要理解的就是說假設\n這個情境分析台積電真的負責這個Intel晶圓代工部門的營運那不管是他是投資入股技術入股或者是由台積電找其他的廠商共同承接Intel在美國的這個先進封裝事業等等的情況之下會不會去符合你們事業結合的這個公平交易法第10條的結合呢\n我們當然就是要看將來假設真的有合作的關係我們會看他具體的內容來判斷是不是符合我們公平法第10條各款的結合太陽那他們兩間公司的這個年銷售額都超過公平會規定的400億台幣那依法要向公平會申報假設未來公平會獲得申報之後要做哪些要件的檢視呢 審視呢\n如果前提是它符合結合定義以後然後營業門檻超過接下來我們就看它的合作關係到底是競爭者之間的水平合作還是上下游業者的垂直合作那我們的審查架構不太一樣水平競爭者的審查標準那在什麼情況之下公平會會做出禁止結合的決議呢簡單來講原則上來講就是縣市競爭的不利大於整體經濟利益\n就是對市場的競爭限制程度大於整體經濟體所以就是你們也有掌握他們現在的最新的情資所以你們會持續不斷的繼續關心這件事情關心的重點當然是從公平法特別是結合這個部分我們會持續觀察他的走向還有發展等於希望你們可以主動積極甚至也不排除是不是能夠邀請他們到公平會來說明會不會請他們來喝咖啡呢\n我們不行我們大概比較不適合去喝咖啡但是就是我們其實基本上請業者來大概就是有案子已經成立了我們才會啟動這樣的程序因為台積電是台灣的國本是我們的護國神山他應該更積極審慎的去面對他對外的投資那政府呢包括公平會應該站在維護國家利益跟法益的立場審慎的來處理本案那所以呢本席也希望說搞不好\n你公平會不需要站在一個被動的立場啊你可以主動積極啊邀請他來討論啊邀請他來update一些資訊啊這一點因為目前這些發展基本上大部分都是媒體上在轉載了所以我們會看\n會持續觀察啦看情況是不是已經大概真的具體成形我們後續再來所以也希望公平會不要站在一個被動的角度而且是主動積極既然你已經媒體看到訊息啦你應該是有主動出擊的權利啊也可以去邀請他們來了解一下說到底目前狀況是怎麼回事\n等於是你在主動積極的過程當中其實你也是在協助他理解說政府的法規跟他如果要去完成他想要做的事情是不是哪一些地方要配合我們公平會的這個規定呢是我們會看這個整個事件未來發展情況怎麼樣剛剛委員建議我們會納入會有會審慎的考慮\n包括說我記得幾年前有這個衛生紙之亂啊你們那時候不是很主動積極嗎我覺得這個是可以借鏡的嘛怎麼會台積電這麼重要的一個公司對台灣這麼重要的一件事情然後你們只是透過報紙瞭解你們完全不知道你們扮演的角色這不應該啊所以剛剛路委員報告我們就是要看他的事件的發展到什麼程度啦因為有時候企業剛開始在規劃的時候如果我們貿然就邀請他們來做談這個問題\n有時候就像剛剛跟你講有時候是媒體上在報導這樣的一個消息那是不是真的會這樣做會做到什麼程度這個是我們要考慮當然本席當然是期待你們要有更多的積極作為然後能夠密切掌握最新的情況這才是對台灣人民負責任那我再接下來請問一下現在台灣詐騙橫行這個主委主委知道一年度我們台灣人民被詐騙的金額大概是多少嗎一年喔對啊\n應該上百億以上太客氣了 我跟你說一千八百多億而且我們能夠扣押的只有一百四十幾億不到十分之一所以你這樣除起來你知道平均一天被詐騙幾億嗎四至五億所以你知道公平會扮演的角色非常重要不實的廣告尤其現在橫行五組這些不實廣告橫行五組請問公平會可以扮演什麼角色呢\n當然就像委員剛剛講的不實廣告就是我們的執法的重點就是但是有很多的詐騙的一些所謂的廣告其實它本質不是廣告它其實單純就是要騙錢那這種詐騙的行為基本上我們會移轉給檢調機關來進行其實呢上個會期有很多委員也提到過那上個會期當然是李主委啦但是現在換了新的這個代理主委我們也希望有個新的氣象很多\n民眾就是誤信了不實廣告才下單所以不實廣告它本身就是一種詐騙啊我記得今年行政院有發布就是更新這個打詐綱領2.0啊代理主委知道打詐綱領2.0有幾個重點嗎\n好你不知道我講市詐賭詐主詐懲詐還有防詐其實防詐就是公平會的這個這個一個重要的業務才對啊怎麼樣讓不實廣告可以下架是不是\n是不是可以善用這個公平交易法第21條打臉書跟購物網站不實廣告其實這些都很重要耶這是賭詐的部分你們好像有這個權利有這個責任但是不大願意去使用啊我想請問代理主委公平會一年因為廣告不實開罰到底有幾件\n目前在去年來講的話我們有63件是63件那近10年喔你自己看這個數據上近10年其實平均每年開罰不到不到60件平均50.5件你要想啊我們是全台灣整年被詐騙1800多億耶\n一天詐騙四至五億結果你這麼被動你一年才開罰不到六十件你覺得這合理嗎\n我想我們都積極的在查處這些相關的不實廣告但是案子一進來以後在法律底下當然就是有一些法律上的要件要走所以我必須要講你們的書面報告上面寫說不實廣告你們主動去查查而且呢不遺餘力而且派員主動去查我想要知道你們到底派了幾個人一個兩個還是三個這個\n主動查查我們通常就是業務單位會按照那個案件就是不知道所以我覺得主委這個變成是你公平會重要的業務你應該更落實去掌握說到底有哪些人是主動在查這些東西你們派的到底有哪些人你不能說派員你如果一個兩個你也說派員而且不遺餘力結果這樣的開罰開罰數\n離不遺餘力 應該有很大的進步空間吧我在這裡喔 特別跟主委提醒喔現在真的是公平會可以好好發揮的時候了 好嗎好 謝謝 謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.492 --> 00:13.357\n主席我想請代理主委陳主委陳主委你好\n\n00:15.743 --> 00:22.189\n相信你一定知道台積電在3月4號宣布對美投資1000億美元相當於3兆多的台幣那總投資金額已經超過台灣一整年的總預算要在美國興建三座新的晶圓廠那兩座先進的封裝廠及一座主要的研發團隊中心這個投資案是美國史上規模最大的單向外國直接投資案\n\n00:44.127 --> 01:02.534\n想請問主委您覺得這個投資是利多還是利空呢對台灣來說我想這是企業經驗的自由啦我也很難去評估利多利少不過因為企業走出國際做多元化的投資這本來就是企業他基於自己的考慮會做的好主委我想你可能不方便發表太多意見那\n\n01:04.214 --> 01:29.842\n我就問一點跟公平會有關的事情依照昨天最新的消息台積電已經向美國晶片設計商輝達跟超維還有博通提議投資一間負責Intel晶圓廠的合資企業那其中台積電的持股比例不會超過50%那公平會現在有掌握任何這方面的情資嗎\n\n01:31.465 --> 01:51.945\n我們對台積電最近的一些投資作我們是有一些了解跟掌握了那至於從本會的立場來講像剛剛委員談到這些合作的模式我們會進一步先去判斷到底算不算是公平法裡面的結合的樣子是符合結合以後我們才有可能去進行相關的審查是這就是本席想要理解的就是說假設\n\n01:53.047 --> 02:16.768\n這個情境分析台積電真的負責這個Intel晶圓代工部門的營運那不管是他是投資入股技術入股或者是由台積電找其他的廠商共同承接Intel在美國的這個先進封裝事業等等的情況之下會不會去符合你們事業結合的這個公平交易法第10條的結合呢\n\n02:18.630 --> 02:36.983\n我們當然就是要看將來假設真的有合作的關係我們會看他具體的內容來判斷是不是符合我們公平法第10條各款的結合太陽那他們兩間公司的這個年銷售額都超過公平會規定的400億台幣那依法要向公平會申報假設未來公平會獲得申報之後要做哪些要件的檢視呢審視呢\n\n02:43.547 --> 03:08.658\n如果前提是它符合結合定義以後然後營業門檻超過接下來我們就看它的合作關係到底是競爭者之間的水平合作還是上下游業者的垂直合作那我們的審查架構不太一樣水平競爭者的審查標準那在什麼情況之下公平會會做出禁止結合的決議呢簡單來講原則上來講就是縣市競爭的不利大於整體經濟利益\n\n03:09.978 --> 03:36.091\n就是對市場的競爭限制程度大於整體經濟體所以就是你們也有掌握他們現在的最新的情資所以你們會持續不斷的繼續關心這件事情關心的重點當然是從公平法特別是結合這個部分我們會持續觀察他的走向還有發展等於希望你們可以主動積極甚至也不排除是不是能夠邀請他們到公平會來說明會不會請他們來喝咖啡呢\n\n03:39.588 --> 04:09.308\n我們不行我們大概比較不適合去喝咖啡但是就是我們其實基本上請業者來大概就是有案子已經成立了我們才會啟動這樣的程序因為台積電是台灣的國本是我們的護國神山他應該更積極審慎的去面對他對外的投資那政府呢包括公平會應該站在維護國家利益跟法益的立場審慎的來處理本案那所以呢本席也希望說搞不好\n\n04:09.828 --> 04:23.280\n你公平會不需要站在一個被動的立場啊你可以主動積極啊邀請他來討論啊邀請他來update一些資訊啊這一點因為目前這些發展基本上大部分都是媒體上在轉載了所以我們會看\n\n04:25.502 --> 04:35.668\n會持續觀察啦看情況是不是已經大概真的具體成形我們後續再來所以也希望公平會不要站在一個被動的角度而且是主動積極既然你已經媒體看到訊息啦你應該是有主動出擊的權利啊也可以去邀請他們來了解一下說到底目前狀況是怎麼回事\n\n04:45.453 --> 05:01.991\n等於是你在主動積極的過程當中其實你也是在協助他理解說政府的法規跟他如果要去完成他想要做的事情是不是哪一些地方要配合我們公平會的這個規定呢是我們會看這個整個事件未來發展情況怎麼樣剛剛委員建議我們會納入會有會審慎的考慮\n\n05:04.974 --> 05:31.199\n包括說我記得幾年前有這個衛生紙之亂啊你們那時候不是很主動積極嗎我覺得這個是可以借鏡的嘛怎麼會台積電這麼重要的一個公司對台灣這麼重要的一件事情然後你們只是透過報紙瞭解你們完全不知道你們扮演的角色這不應該啊所以剛剛路委員報告我們就是要看他的事件的發展到什麼程度啦因為有時候企業剛開始在規劃的時候如果我們貿然就邀請他們來做談這個問題\n\n05:33.419 --> 06:00.637\n有時候就像剛剛跟你講有時候是媒體上在報導這樣的一個消息那是不是真的會這樣做會做到什麼程度這個是我們要考慮當然本席當然是期待你們要有更多的積極作為然後能夠密切掌握最新的情況這才是對台灣人民負責任那我再接下來請問一下現在台灣詐騙橫行這個主委主委知道一年度我們台灣人民被詐騙的金額大概是多少嗎一年喔對啊\n\n06:04.164 --> 06:32.890\n應該上百億以上太客氣了我跟你說一千八百多億而且我們能夠扣押的只有一百四十幾億不到十分之一所以你這樣除起來你知道平均一天被詐騙幾億嗎四至五億所以你知道公平會扮演的角色非常重要不實的廣告尤其現在橫行五組這些不實廣告橫行五組請問公平會可以扮演什麼角色呢\n\n06:33.832 --> 07:01.262\n當然就像委員剛剛講的不實廣告就是我們的執法的重點就是但是有很多的詐騙的一些所謂的廣告其實它本質不是廣告它其實單純就是要騙錢那這種詐騙的行為基本上我們會移轉給檢調機關來進行其實呢上個會期有很多委員也提到過那上個會期當然是李主委啦但是現在換了新的這個代理主委我們也希望有個新的氣象很多\n\n07:02.282 --> 07:15.110\n民眾就是誤信了不實廣告才下單所以不實廣告它本身就是一種詐騙啊我記得今年行政院有發布就是更新這個打詐綱領2.0啊代理主委知道打詐綱領2.0有幾個重點嗎\n\n07:21.462 --> 07:24.144\n好你不知道我講市詐賭詐主詐懲詐還有防詐其實防詐就是公平會的這個這個一個重要的業務才對啊怎麼樣讓不實廣告可以下架是不是\n\n07:39.833 --> 07:58.800\n是不是可以善用這個公平交易法第21條打臉書跟購物網站不實廣告其實這些都很重要耶這是賭詐的部分你們好像有這個權利有這個責任但是不大願意去使用啊我想請問代理主委公平會一年因為廣告不實開罰到底有幾件\n\n08:03.735 --> 08:11.183\n目前在去年來講的話我們有63件是63件那近10年喔你自己看這個數據上近10年其實平均每年開罰不到不到60件平均50.5件你要想啊我們是全台灣整年被詐騙1800多億耶\n\n08:24.818 --> 08:29.708\n一天詐騙四至五億結果你這麼被動你一年才開罰不到六十件你覺得這合理嗎\n\n08:34.652 --> 08:55.542\n我想我們都積極的在查處這些相關的不實廣告但是案子一進來以後在法律底下當然就是有一些法律上的要件要走所以我必須要講你們的書面報告上面寫說不實廣告你們主動去查查而且呢不遺餘力而且派員主動去查我想要知道你們到底派了幾個人一個兩個還是三個這個\n\n09:02.757 --> 09:20.623\n主動查查我們通常就是業務單位會按照那個案件就是不知道所以我覺得主委這個變成是你公平會重要的業務你應該更落實去掌握說到底有哪些人是主動在查這些東西你們派的到底有哪些人你不能說派員你如果一個兩個你也說派員而且不遺餘力結果這樣的開罰開罰數\n\n09:27.766 --> 09:35.994\n離不遺餘力應該有很大的進步空間吧我在這裡喔特別跟主委提醒喔現在真的是公平會可以好好發揮的時候了好嗎好謝謝謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.492,"end":13.357,"text":"主席我想請代理主委陳主委陳主委你好"},{"start":15.743,"end":22.189,"text":"相信你一定知道台積電在3月4號宣布對美投資1000億美元相當於3兆多的台幣那總投資金額已經超過台灣一整年的總預算要在美國興建三座新的晶圓廠那兩座先進的封裝廠及一座主要的研發團隊中心這個投資案是美國史上規模最大的單向外國直接投資案"},{"start":44.127,"end":62.534,"text":"想請問主委您覺得這個投資是利多還是利空呢對台灣來說我想這是企業經驗的自由啦我也很難去評估利多利少不過因為企業走出國際做多元化的投資這本來就是企業他基於自己的考慮會做的好主委我想你可能不方便發表太多意見那"},{"start":64.214,"end":89.842,"text":"我就問一點跟公平會有關的事情依照昨天最新的消息台積電已經向美國晶片設計商輝達跟超維還有博通提議投資一間負責Intel晶圓廠的合資企業那其中台積電的持股比例不會超過50%那公平會現在有掌握任何這方面的情資嗎"},{"start":91.465,"end":111.945,"text":"我們對台積電最近的一些投資作我們是有一些了解跟掌握了那至於從本會的立場來講像剛剛委員談到這些合作的模式我們會進一步先去判斷到底算不算是公平法裡面的結合的樣子是符合結合以後我們才有可能去進行相關的審查是這就是本席想要理解的就是說假設"},{"start":113.047,"end":136.768,"text":"這個情境分析台積電真的負責這個Intel晶圓代工部門的營運那不管是他是投資入股技術入股或者是由台積電找其他的廠商共同承接Intel在美國的這個先進封裝事業等等的情況之下會不會去符合你們事業結合的這個公平交易法第10條的結合呢"},{"start":138.63,"end":156.983,"text":"我們當然就是要看將來假設真的有合作的關係我們會看他具體的內容來判斷是不是符合我們公平法第10條各款的結合太陽那他們兩間公司的這個年銷售額都超過公平會規定的400億台幣那依法要向公平會申報假設未來公平會獲得申報之後要做哪些要件的檢視呢 審視呢"},{"start":163.547,"end":188.658,"text":"如果前提是它符合結合定義以後然後營業門檻超過接下來我們就看它的合作關係到底是競爭者之間的水平合作還是上下游業者的垂直合作那我們的審查架構不太一樣水平競爭者的審查標準那在什麼情況之下公平會會做出禁止結合的決議呢簡單來講原則上來講就是縣市競爭的不利大於整體經濟利益"},{"start":189.978,"end":216.091,"text":"就是對市場的競爭限制程度大於整體經濟體所以就是你們也有掌握他們現在的最新的情資所以你們會持續不斷的繼續關心這件事情關心的重點當然是從公平法特別是結合這個部分我們會持續觀察他的走向還有發展等於希望你們可以主動積極甚至也不排除是不是能夠邀請他們到公平會來說明會不會請他們來喝咖啡呢"},{"start":219.588,"end":249.308,"text":"我們不行我們大概比較不適合去喝咖啡但是就是我們其實基本上請業者來大概就是有案子已經成立了我們才會啟動這樣的程序因為台積電是台灣的國本是我們的護國神山他應該更積極審慎的去面對他對外的投資那政府呢包括公平會應該站在維護國家利益跟法益的立場審慎的來處理本案那所以呢本席也希望說搞不好"},{"start":249.828,"end":263.28,"text":"你公平會不需要站在一個被動的立場啊你可以主動積極啊邀請他來討論啊邀請他來update一些資訊啊這一點因為目前這些發展基本上大部分都是媒體上在轉載了所以我們會看"},{"start":265.502,"end":275.668,"text":"會持續觀察啦看情況是不是已經大概真的具體成形我們後續再來所以也希望公平會不要站在一個被動的角度而且是主動積極既然你已經媒體看到訊息啦你應該是有主動出擊的權利啊也可以去邀請他們來了解一下說到底目前狀況是怎麼回事"},{"start":285.453,"end":301.991,"text":"等於是你在主動積極的過程當中其實你也是在協助他理解說政府的法規跟他如果要去完成他想要做的事情是不是哪一些地方要配合我們公平會的這個規定呢是我們會看這個整個事件未來發展情況怎麼樣剛剛委員建議我們會納入會有會審慎的考慮"},{"start":304.974,"end":331.199,"text":"包括說我記得幾年前有這個衛生紙之亂啊你們那時候不是很主動積極嗎我覺得這個是可以借鏡的嘛怎麼會台積電這麼重要的一個公司對台灣這麼重要的一件事情然後你們只是透過報紙瞭解你們完全不知道你們扮演的角色這不應該啊所以剛剛路委員報告我們就是要看他的事件的發展到什麼程度啦因為有時候企業剛開始在規劃的時候如果我們貿然就邀請他們來做談這個問題"},{"start":333.419,"end":360.637,"text":"有時候就像剛剛跟你講有時候是媒體上在報導這樣的一個消息那是不是真的會這樣做會做到什麼程度這個是我們要考慮當然本席當然是期待你們要有更多的積極作為然後能夠密切掌握最新的情況這才是對台灣人民負責任那我再接下來請問一下現在台灣詐騙橫行這個主委主委知道一年度我們台灣人民被詐騙的金額大概是多少嗎一年喔對啊"},{"start":364.164,"end":392.89,"text":"應該上百億以上太客氣了 我跟你說一千八百多億而且我們能夠扣押的只有一百四十幾億不到十分之一所以你這樣除起來你知道平均一天被詐騙幾億嗎四至五億所以你知道公平會扮演的角色非常重要不實的廣告尤其現在橫行五組這些不實廣告橫行五組請問公平會可以扮演什麼角色呢"},{"start":393.832,"end":421.262,"text":"當然就像委員剛剛講的不實廣告就是我們的執法的重點就是但是有很多的詐騙的一些所謂的廣告其實它本質不是廣告它其實單純就是要騙錢那這種詐騙的行為基本上我們會移轉給檢調機關來進行其實呢上個會期有很多委員也提到過那上個會期當然是李主委啦但是現在換了新的這個代理主委我們也希望有個新的氣象很多"},{"start":422.282,"end":435.11,"text":"民眾就是誤信了不實廣告才下單所以不實廣告它本身就是一種詐騙啊我記得今年行政院有發布就是更新這個打詐綱領2.0啊代理主委知道打詐綱領2.0有幾個重點嗎"},{"start":441.462,"end":444.144,"text":"好你不知道我講市詐賭詐主詐懲詐還有防詐其實防詐就是公平會的這個這個一個重要的業務才對啊怎麼樣讓不實廣告可以下架是不是"},{"start":459.833,"end":478.8,"text":"是不是可以善用這個公平交易法第21條打臉書跟購物網站不實廣告其實這些都很重要耶這是賭詐的部分你們好像有這個權利有這個責任但是不大願意去使用啊我想請問代理主委公平會一年因為廣告不實開罰到底有幾件"},{"start":483.735,"end":491.183,"text":"目前在去年來講的話我們有63件是63件那近10年喔你自己看這個數據上近10年其實平均每年開罰不到不到60件平均50.5件你要想啊我們是全台灣整年被詐騙1800多億耶"},{"start":504.818,"end":509.708,"text":"一天詐騙四至五億結果你這麼被動你一年才開罰不到六十件你覺得這合理嗎"},{"start":514.652,"end":535.542,"text":"我想我們都積極的在查處這些相關的不實廣告但是案子一進來以後在法律底下當然就是有一些法律上的要件要走所以我必須要講你們的書面報告上面寫說不實廣告你們主動去查查而且呢不遺餘力而且派員主動去查我想要知道你們到底派了幾個人一個兩個還是三個這個"},{"start":542.757,"end":560.623,"text":"主動查查我們通常就是業務單位會按照那個案件就是不知道所以我覺得主委這個變成是你公平會重要的業務你應該更落實去掌握說到底有哪些人是主動在查這些東西你們派的到底有哪些人你不能說派員你如果一個兩個你也說派員而且不遺餘力結果這樣的開罰開罰數"},{"start":567.766,"end":575.994,"text":"離不遺餘力 應該有很大的進步空間吧我在這裡喔 特別跟主委提醒喔現在真的是公平會可以好好發揮的時候了 好嗎好 謝謝 謝謝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":468,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（10時34分）主席，我想請陳代理主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["張委員嘉郡：陳主委，你好。相信你一定知道台積電在3月4號宣布對美投資1,000億美元，相當於三兆多的臺幣，總投資金額已經超過臺灣一整年的總預算，要在美國興建三座新的晶圓廠、兩座先進的封裝廠及一座主要的研發團隊中心，這個投資案是美國史上規模最大的單向外國直接投資案，想請問主委，您覺得這個投資是利多還是利空呢？對臺灣來說。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我想這是企業經營的自由，我也很難去評估利多利空，不過因為企業走出國際、做多元化的投資，這本來就是企業基於自己的考慮會做的。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，主委，我想你可能不方便發表太多意見，我就問一點跟公平會有關的事情，依照昨天最新的消息，台積電已經向美國晶片設計商輝達、超微還有博通提議投資一間負責英特爾晶圓廠的合資企業，其中台積電的持股比例不會超過50%，公平會現在有掌握任何這方面的情資嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對於台積電最近的一些投資作為，我們是有一些了解跟掌握，至於從本會的立場來講，像剛剛委員談到這些合作的模式，我們會進一步先去判斷到底算不算是公平法裡面結合的樣子，符合結合以後，我們才有可能去進行相關的審查跟觀察。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這就是本席想要理解的，假設這個情境分析，台積電真的負責英特爾晶圓代工部門的營運，不管它是投資入股、技術入股或者是由台積電找其他的廠商共同承接英特爾在美國的先進封裝事業等等的情況之下，會不會去符合你們公平交易法第十條的結合呢？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們當然就是要看將來假設真的有合作的關係，我們會看具體的內容來判斷是不是符合公平法第十條各款的結合態樣。"],["張委員嘉郡：他們兩間公司年銷售額都超過公平會規定的400億臺幣，依法要向公平會申報，假設未來公平會獲得申報之後，要做哪些要件的檢視、審視呢？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：前提是它符合結合定義以後，然後營業額門檻超過，接下來我們就看它的合作關係到底是競爭者之間的水平合作，還是上下游業者的垂直合作，我們的審查架構不太一樣，水平競爭者有水平競爭者的審查標準。"],["張委員嘉郡：那在什麼情況之下，公平會會做出禁止結合的決議呢？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：簡單來講、原則上來講，限制競爭的不利益大於整體經濟利益，就是對於市場的競爭、限制程度大於整體經濟利益。"],["張委員嘉郡：你們也有掌握他們現在最新的情資，所以你們會持續不斷地關心這件事情？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對，我們關心的重點當然是從公平法，特別是結合這個部分，我們會持續觀察它的走向還有發展。"],["張委員嘉郡：本席希望你們可以主動、積極，甚至也不排除是不是能夠邀請他們到公平會來說明，會不會請他們來喝咖啡呢？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們不行，我們大概比較不適合去喝咖啡，基本上請業者來，大概都是有案子、已經成立了，我們才會啟動這樣的程序。"],["張委員嘉郡：因為台積電是臺灣的國本、是我們的護國神山，應該更積極、審慎地去面對它對外的投資，政府包括公平會應該站在維護國家利益跟法益的立場，審慎地來處理本案，所以本席也希望，搞不好公平會不需要站在一個被動的立場，你可以主動積極，邀請它來討論、邀請它來update一些資訊，這一點……"],["陳代理主任委員志民：因為目前這些發展，基本上大部分都是媒體上在轉載的，所以我們會持續觀察。"],["張委員嘉郡：是。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：看情況是不是已經大概真的具體成形，我們後續再來……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以也希望公平會不要站在一個被動的角度，而是主動積極，既然你已經從媒體看到訊息了，你應該有主動出擊的權力啊！你也可以去邀請他們來了解一下，到底目前狀況是怎麼回事，等於是你在主動積極的過程當中，其實也是在協助它理解政府的法規，跟它如果要去完成它想要做的事情，是不是哪一些地方要配合公平會的規定呢？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是，我們會看整個事件未來發展情況怎麼樣，剛剛委員的建議，我們會審慎地考慮。"],["張委員嘉郡：包括我記得幾年前有衛生紙之亂，你們那時候不是很主動積極嗎？我覺得這是可以借鏡的，怎麼會對於台積電這麼重要的一個公司、對臺灣這麼重要的一件事情，然後你們只是透過報紙了解，你們完全不知道你們扮演的角色，這不應該啊！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：剛剛跟委員報告，我們就是要看它事件的發展到什麼程度，因為有時候企業剛開始在規劃的時候，如果我們貿然就邀請他們來談這個問題，就像剛剛所講的，有時候是媒體上在報導這樣的消息，那是不是真的會這樣做、會做到什麼程度，這是我們要考慮的。"],["張委員嘉郡：本席當然是期待你們要有更多的積極作為，能夠密切掌握最新的情況，這才是對臺灣人民負責任。我接下來再請問一下，現在臺灣詐騙橫行，主委知道我們臺灣人民一年被詐騙的金額大概是多少嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：一年？"],["張委員嘉郡：對。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：應該上百億以上。"],["張委員嘉郡：太客氣了！我跟你說，一千八百多億！而且能夠扣押的只有一百四十幾億，不到十分之一。這樣除起來，平均一天被詐騙幾億？四至五億。所以公平會扮演的角色非常重要，尤其不實廣告。現在不實廣告橫行無阻，請問公平會可以扮演什麼角色？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：就像委員剛剛講的，不實廣告就是我們的執法重點，但是很多詐騙廣告的本質不是廣告，單純就是要騙錢。所以這種詐騙行為，基本上我們會移轉給檢調機關來進行後續的偵辦。"],["張委員嘉郡：上會期很多委員也提到，當然，上個會期是李主委，現在換了新的代理主委，我們也希望有新氣象。很多民眾就是誤信了不實廣告才下單，所以不實廣告本身就是一種詐騙。今年行政院更新打詐綱領2.0，代理主委知道打詐綱領2.0有幾個重點嗎？你不知道？我講。識詐、堵詐、阻詐、懲詐，還有防詐。其中，防詐就是公平會的重要業務，也就是怎麼樣讓不實廣告可以下架，是不是？是不是可以善用公平交易法第二十一條規定，去打臉書跟購物網站上的不實廣告？其實這些都很重要，是堵詐的部分。只是你們有這個權力、有這個責任，卻好像不大願意去使用。我想請問代理主委，公平會一年因廣告不實而開罰幾件？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：以去年來講，我們有63件。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，63件。你自己看數據，近十年，其實平均每年開罰不到60件，平均50.5件。你要想一想，全臺灣整年被詐騙一千八百多億，一天平均詐騙四至五億，結果你這麼被動，一年才開罰不到60件，你覺得合理嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們都積極查處這些相關的不實廣告，但是案子進來後在法律底下，就是有一些法律要件要走，所以……"],["張委員嘉郡：你們在書面報告上寫派員主動查察不實廣告不遺餘力，我想知道你們到底派了幾個人？一個？兩個？還是三個？不知道？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：所謂主動查察，通常業務單位會按照案件的複雜度……"],["張委員嘉郡：就是不知道！主委，這會變成公平會的重要業務，你應該要更落實去掌握，到底有哪些人主動在查這些東西？你們派的到底有哪些人？你不能只說派員，因為一個、兩個也是派員，而且還說不遺餘力，結果開罰數離不遺餘力應該有很大的進步空間吧？我在這裡特別提醒主委，現在真的是公平會可以好好發揮的時候，好嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：好，謝謝委員。"],["張委員嘉郡：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張嘉郡委員。","我們下一位請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-2","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳超明","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","陳培瑜"],"page_start":121,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請公平交易委員會代理主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00003"}}}