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{\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 489.966, \"end\": 490.166, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 490.166, \"end\": 490.227, \"score\": 0.63}, {\"word\": \"張\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 490.227, \"end\": 490.367, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 490.367, \"end\": 490.427, \"score\": 0.639}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 490.427, \"end\": 490.547, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 490.547, \"end\": 490.567, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 492.133, \"end\": 520.848, \"text\": \"其實你可以看到呢這個是另外一張最新的這個機組是國軍他手機被偷了資料完全沒有清國軍一三旅這個的電話裡面有他的後勤跟上級的這個相關的對話然後呢裡面呢他也有很多他自己寫的備忘錄就包含他在當兵的時候一些心得然後呢他的這個整個過程然後呢後面呢他裡面也寫說這是班級群\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 492.133, \"end\": 492.433, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 492.433, \"end\": 492.553, \"score\": 0.644}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 492.553, \"end\": 492.673, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 492.673, \"end\": 492.773, \"score\": 0.422}, {\"word\": \"看\", 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\"end\": 518.186, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 518.186, \"end\": 518.407, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 518.407, \"end\": 518.587, \"score\": 0.613}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 518.587, \"end\": 518.807, \"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 518.807, \"end\": 519.007, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 519.007, \"end\": 519.147, \"score\": 0.608}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 519.147, \"end\": 519.567, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 519.567, \"end\": 519.767, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 519.767, \"end\": 520.167, \"score\": 0.774}, {\"word\": \"寫\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 520.167, \"end\": 520.328, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"班\", \"start\": 520.328, \"end\": 520.828, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"級\"}, {\"word\": \"群\", \"start\": 520.828, \"end\": 520.848, \"score\": 0.996}]}, {\"start\": 521.428, \"end\": 538.288, \"text\": \"所以我想要問一下如果說這些名單裡面都外露了那這個中共他這裡他可以掌握我們的國軍的這個名冊名單還有長官的聯絡電話之後那是不是他在發展組織或是刺探情報上面他有更簡單的方式能夠來做\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 521.428, \"end\": 521.528, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 521.528, \"end\": 521.588, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 521.588, \"end\": 521.729, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 521.729, \"end\": 521.869, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 521.869, \"end\": 522.129, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 522.129, \"end\": 522.289, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 522.289, \"end\": 522.85, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 522.85, \"end\": 523.05, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 523.05, \"end\": 523.951, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 523.951, \"end\": 524.231, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"名\", \"start\": 524.231, \"end\": 525.133, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 525.133, \"end\": 525.693, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 525.693, \"end\": 525.893, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 525.893, \"end\": 526.134, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"露\", \"start\": 526.134, \"end\": 526.354, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 526.354, \"end\": 526.814, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 526.814, \"end\": 527.215, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 527.215, \"end\": 527.435, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"共\", \"start\": 527.435, \"end\": 527.595, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 527.595, \"end\": 528.036, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 528.036, \"end\": 528.216, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 528.216, \"end\": 528.316, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 528.316, \"end\": 528.416, 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\"話\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 532.721, \"end\": 532.922, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 532.922, \"end\": 533.442, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 533.442, \"end\": 533.582, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 533.582, \"end\": 533.703, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 533.703, \"end\": 533.803, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 533.803, \"end\": 533.883, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 533.883, \"end\": 534.083, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 534.083, \"end\": 534.504, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"展\", \"start\": 534.504, \"end\": 535.164, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"組\"}, {\"word\": \"織\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 535.164, \"end\": 535.284, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 535.284, \"end\": 535.425, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"刺\", \"start\": 535.425, \"end\": 535.525, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"探\", \"start\": 535.525, \"end\": 535.765, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 535.765, \"end\": 536.125, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 536.125, \"end\": 536.306, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 536.306, \"end\": 536.706, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 536.706, \"end\": 536.866, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 536.866, \"end\": 537.026, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 537.026, \"end\": 537.587, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"簡\"}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 537.587, \"end\": 537.767, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 537.767, \"end\": 537.988, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"式\", \"start\": 537.988, \"end\": 538.128, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 538.128, \"end\": 538.268, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 538.268, \"end\": 538.288, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 539.725, \"end\": 566.675, \"text\": \"跟委員報告基本上在這方面的確是有一個我們需要檢討精進的部分也就是說他的手機在報遺失或是更換的時候事實上他這個群組我們也律定了相關的管理規範單位是沒有去落實把他做這個退群的動作如果他退出這個群組這相關的資訊是不應該顯示的那其實我們也從這個案例上面去就我們的規定跟執行\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 539.725, \"end\": 539.865, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 539.865, \"end\": 540.325, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 540.325, \"end\": 541.646, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 541.646, \"end\": 541.766, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 541.766, \"end\": 541.906, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 541.906, \"end\": 542.146, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 542.146, \"end\": 542.686, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 542.686, \"end\": 542.866, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 542.866, \"end\": 543.126, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 543.126, \"end\": 544.227, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 544.227, \"end\": 544.427, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 544.427, \"end\": 544.607, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 544.607, \"end\": 545.007, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 545.007, \"end\": 545.307, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 545.307, \"end\": 545.467, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 545.467, \"end\": 546.047, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"精\", \"start\": 546.047, \"end\": 546.347, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 546.347, \"end\": 546.468, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 546.468, \"end\": 546.668, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 546.668, \"end\": 547.188, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 547.188, \"end\": 547.348, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 547.348, \"end\": 547.528, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"是\", 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{\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 1150.163, \"end\": 1150.403, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 1150.403, \"end\": 1150.643, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 1150.643, \"end\": 1151.144, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1151.144, \"end\": 1151.404, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1151.404, \"end\": 1151.545, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1151.545, \"end\": 1151.725, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1151.725, \"end\": 1152.206, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1152.206, \"end\": 1152.286, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 1152.286, \"end\": 1152.406, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1152.406, \"end\": 1152.606, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 1152.606, \"end\": 1152.946, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"視\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 1152.946, \"end\": 1153.167, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 1153.167, \"end\": 1153.287, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 1153.287, \"end\": 1153.647, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"儘\"}, {\"word\": \"速\", \"start\": 1153.647, \"end\": 1153.828, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"改\", \"start\": 1153.828, \"end\": 1154.048, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"善\", \"start\": 1154.048, \"end\": 1154.068, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,229 --> 00:00:23,571\n想請問一下那媒體報導的時候就最近有談到如果今天我們有台灣人他的身分證那他也同時有中國大陸的這個身分證中華人民共和國的身分證那義務役仍然是能夠可以當兵的是嗎\n\n2\n00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:56,886\n我是連議次長按照那個兩岸關係條例九十一條裡面明定就是他具有中國身份的然後他有我們中華民國身份他在這個義務上面他還是要去盡到他應該盡的責任那有沒有打算要收政這一條\n\n3\n00:00:57,779 --> 00:01:26,216\n那是陸委會的兩岸關係條例對啊有沒有打算跟陸委會來協調說要刪除這條你們覺得這樣子是正確的嗎因為義務役如果他有中華人民共和國的身份證能夠來當兵的話有沒有想過一種可能是我們中華民國國軍的組成裡面會有中國共產黨的黨員或者是被中共收買來發展組織的荒謬的現象發生有沒有可能\n\n4\n00:01:26,823 --> 00:01:52,457\n有可能這個我們再跟陸委會那邊來做一個有可能嘛前一陣子有一個網紅說台灣有20萬的人領有中共身分證雖然這個內政部查了之後也沒那麼多但假設他說的是真的好了換算是1%也就是說呢我們國軍裡面有潛藏1600萬的中共同路人那請問你們面對這樣子的一個說法你們覺得是正確的嗎\n\n5\n00:01:55,475 --> 00:01:58,863\n這個數據的部分我們沒有辦法去做一個說明說它是否正確\n\n6\n00:01:59,830 --> 00:02:24,247\n那你們有去檢查或核實嗎要如何查核目前我們現在已經按照陸委會的指導就是請全軍所有人不管志願役或者是義務役的都要去填寫他的他是否具有只要填寫就好了沒有辦法查然後只要是志願役的他如果沒有按照實際來去做填寫那後面如果查到他就會上司擔任公職\n\n7\n00:02:24,987 --> 00:02:52,594\n所以他要被查到嘛我們沒有辦法去做查核那他只有如果有人舉報被查到的話才有可能會去做後續的動作是那這樣子的話其實還是有很高的風險啊好那接下來呢為什麼我要討論這個就是大家今天最關心的就是腰塞管理的部分那這個阿兵哥的手機遺失流到中國大陸裡面呢這個訓練照看起來這個沒有什麼問題但是裡面有這個手機的長官的電話\n\n8\n00:02:54,514 --> 00:03:21,416\n那我想請問一下你們知不知道這個13拐的他不見的手機不見的時間是在什麼時候委員好我是陸軍事務部常務長我們從這個相關的訊息來了解這員無姓士兵他是在112年9月26號退伍那我們掌握到他的一些通聯的狀況大致\n\n9\n00:03:25,258 --> 00:03:38,087\n上面的訊息的時間大致是停留在112年的3月左右3月6號左右好那我們看一下下一張圖其實實際上面它上面有寫時間嗎這個是他手機在2021年7月28號上鎖管制的最後時間\n\n10\n00:03:44,191 --> 00:04:05,294\n對最後管制時間所以他是在更之後的時候手機才弄丟的嗎是的OK好那呢好再來我要問一下說現行的規定必須要登錄辦理這個管制標籤的註銷但沒有強制要求國軍人員一定要安裝能夠遠端刪除手機內容的軟體那反觀呢我們可以看一下美國\n\n11\n00:04:06,195 --> 00:04:31,091\n美國他們的做法呢這邊就有寫嘛Considerinstallingsecuritythatoffersremotelocation.Weplacethisontheweb等等的就這句話他呢是有一個方式是如果你的手機遺失的話他有權去把你的這裡面的這些資料全部都清除那為什麼我們做了這個MDM但是我們卻沒有相關的做法\n\n12\n00:04:33,753 --> 00:04:55,787\n我們慣了MDN是禁止在營內裡面照相攝影然後熱點開放以及這個藍芽功能不能使用那如果要移除的話一定要專門的電腦裡面才能移除MDN這個裝置那剛剛在省委員在執行的時候也在講到這一點民用手機是不是可以安裝這個軟體我們這個下去我們會研究如果行的話我們會來\n\n13\n00:04:56,087 --> 00:05:23,971\n再來你們這個MDM已經被非常多的國軍所詬病就說你們怎麼會做出這種十年前的產物比方說你們在Android的手機跟在iPhone的手機裡面灌了這個MDM之後當它退伍的時候要把它的MDM取消的時候結果完全不一樣如果是Android的話它資料可以被留下來如果是iPhone的話它資料會全部被清除你們知道這件事嗎\n\n14\n00:05:24,491 --> 00:05:48,675\n知道那為什麼會要這樣子因為這個是我們也是偽中科院來執行這個設計MDM那中科院是不是沒做好我用iPhone的手機跟我用Android手機我都是帶手機進去的我們都換了MDM了那為什麼用Android手機它可以留下它的備份紀錄那iPhone卻要全部消除\n\n15\n00:05:49,515 --> 00:06:17,149\n跟委員報告我是中科院副院長那iOS的手機它基本上iOS是一個封閉的系統那Android的系統它是一個開放式架構所以開放式架構對我們在做設計包含了安裝移除或者是monitor這些對開放式架構它有一定的程序所以我們比較能夠可以掌握但是iOS的話它的所有的安裝的軟體要經過這個Apple手機Apple公司的一些認證所以可能在這個上面確實是有一些困難\n\n16\n00:06:17,449 --> 00:06:40,658\n好那我在講你會發現有很多的這個軍人朋友都告訴你有什麼樣方式可以逃脫比方說如果你在軍營之前你在入營之前就先灌好這個LINE或者是其他軟體的話然後你再繼續灌MDN的話它原本灌的東西就也不會被刪掉\n\n17\n00:06:41,522 --> 00:07:03,729\n所以這可能才是導致為什麼他的這個為什麼他有這麼多的LINE我們看一下那個圖片你可以看到他的LINE裡面呢如果是剛剛那兩張照片的話我並不是很在意喔可是他的LINE裡面包含是我們跟這個比如說度蜜月一三七啊早餐的稍微便當已經放在桌上啊\n\n18\n00:07:04,809 --> 00:07:20,700\n連長福當昭好啊我們到了衛訓中心報到啊然後呢這個兵器組的誰誰誰誰誰他基本上把我們很多的士兵的名字都放在上面以及我們的長官的聯絡電話全部都放在上面這有沒有很明顯的國安問題\n\n19\n00:07:22,605 --> 00:07:41,216\n向委員報告這些資料我們去做過審認它是你如何審認的我們就目前可以看得到的資料你從哪裡看的就是網路上公開網路上而已那網路上對啊手機不在你手上嘛那網路上它只公佈一小部分而已啊\n\n20\n00:07:42,496 --> 00:08:10,567\n這個大陸的這個網友他只貼了兩三張圖而已我跟委員報告一下我們清查了一下這位士兵他在四年的服役務役的期間他所擔任的職務都是所謂沒有揭秘的他就是比較基層的一般專長的士兵基層的一般專長士兵但他的聯絡的方式裡面卻填寫了我們非常多的長官的聯絡電話他就是一般在行政工作上的回報並沒有涉及到好我們看下一張好不好是\n\n21\n00:08:12,133 --> 00:08:40,848\n其實你可以看到呢這個是另外一張最新的這個機組是國軍他手機被偷了資料完全沒有清國軍一三旅這個的電話裡面有他的後勤跟上級的這個相關的對話然後呢裡面呢他也有很多他自己寫的備忘錄就包含他在當兵的時候一些心得然後呢他的這個整個過程然後呢後面呢他裡面也寫說這是班級群\n\n22\n00:08:41,428 --> 00:08:58,288\n所以我想要問一下如果說這些名單裡面都外露了那這個中共他這裡他可以掌握我們的國軍的這個名冊名單還有長官的聯絡電話之後那是不是他在發展組織或是刺探情報上面他有更簡單的方式能夠來做\n\n23\n00:08:59,725 --> 00:09:26,675\n跟委員報告基本上在這方面的確是有一個我們需要檢討精進的部分也就是說他的手機在報遺失或是更換的時候事實上他這個群組我們也律定了相關的管理規範單位是沒有去落實把他做這個退群的動作如果他退出這個群組這相關的資訊是不應該顯示的那其實我們也從這個案例上面去就我們的規定跟執行\n\n24\n00:09:27,555 --> 00:09:41,926\n是否有落實我們也要持續的去做要求向委員說明那再來呢我要再講一個齁這個也是我們的軍人說的他說呢如果你在入營之前你就要想好你要用什麼LINE帳號\n\n25\n00:09:42,606 --> 00:10:10,655\n想好之後呢在一開始或第一次售價的時候帶回營區灌MDM所以呢因為第一週你要帶什麼呢頂多只是被保管而已班長也沒空把你怎麼樣所以呢如果你在第一週的時候你就把你的LINE手機準備好的話那之後呢你就不需要再另外加群組也不需要另外一支手機那在灌MDM的時候其實它就有一個漏洞你們知道這件事情嗎\n\n26\n00:10:13,663 --> 00:10:29,254\n不知道不知道這個非常清楚在網路上面都可以查得到很多人在教學要怎麼樣同時讓你的Line跟你的這個MDM在一起他最簡單的方式就是他先灌了我們的軟體之後然後呢他再去加MDM\n\n27\n00:10:29,656 --> 00:10:51,583\n因為私人的LINE跟MDN是兩件事情它不會有任何的衝突也不會有影響我們剛剛講過灌MDN這件事情是禁止我們官兵在營內使用照相攝影熱點分享以及這個藍芽功能是限制他們這些功能不能使用它之前灌了LINE的群組它還是LINE那個是沒有不相衝突的\n\n28\n00:10:52,623 --> 00:11:20,682\n所以呢他裡面就講說呢你基本上呢你可以先把要就是因為他認為說呢你如果之後再加群組或放假回報沒有LINE的話會很麻煩那你灌MDN的時候Android帶傳輸線跟登出裡面的帳號基本上呢都可以重正常灌不用重設甚至Android版本的MDN還可以自己自動上鎖跟檢索所以呢比起要監管的Apple的這個安裝時間比較快\n\n29\n00:11:22,083 --> 00:11:38,386\n那我最後我要講的意思就是說你們在MDM的這個設計上面雖然剛剛講說可以隱藏一些資訊但是有幾個缺失第一個缺失就是其實在網路上已經有很多人他們嘗試去破解這個東西而且是成功的\n\n30\n00:11:39,006 --> 00:12:03,764\n第二件事情呢就是你們在同樣是手機裡面在Android的跟在Apple裡面他們最後處理掉的方法是完全不一樣這對很多人來說是並不公平的一件事情第三件事情呢是在這個手機它遺失之後我們卻沒有任何的能力去追蹤它的手機在哪裡然後並且把它清除簡單來說如果你用Apple或是用Android的話\n\n31\n00:12:04,665 --> 00:12:21,204\n實際上面呢你是可以在他報案之後第一時間就可以去追蹤他的手機的位置定位點的但是呢我們的國軍卻沒有這麼做所以才發生這次的這個所謂的二手機的事件所以我想問一下這四件事情到底是哪裡至愛難行導致於這樣子的情況發生\n\n32\n00:12:24,841 --> 00:12:42,162\n你們有沒有打算重新去檢討你們MDM是一個很過時然後被很多的基層軍人認為是很沒有用很沒有意義而且很容易破解然後呢這個也很不先進的一個東西你們有沒有考慮要重新去檢討整個機制\n\n33\n00:12:43,463 --> 00:13:03,179\n這個我們可以下去之後再考慮一下因為事實上中科院的MDN它的版本是一直都有在更新的那更新的還是很爛啊我剛剛講的就是2025年的時候的士兵他們所說的東西啊還不夠新嗎2025年的時候年初的時候大家還在討論這件事情啊在這個事件爆發之前大家就在討論這件事啦\n\n34\n00:13:04,690 --> 00:13:27,810\n那我們下去再研究看是不是有更好的方式可以功能性要設置限制他們不能使用然後但是有更好的軟體可以我講一個最簡單的如果我今天我的手機遺失的時候其實它上面都有那個追蹤碼那每一支手機它的型號上它都有追蹤碼坦白說透過我們的相關系統裡面是可以追蹤那個手機現在在哪裡的\n\n35\n00:13:28,490 --> 00:13:37,475\n那如果當下他報案之後我們立即去追的話他還會被賣到大陸去嗎他在台灣可能就被找到啦那為什麼沒有做這件事情呢\n\n36\n00:13:38,775 --> 00:13:59,341\n這是現行的這是現行的我們的制度就可以做到的東西啊我們現行的科技就可以完成的東西啊為什麼我們要等到這個手機被賣到流浪到大陸之後然後呢被打開了然後裡面有很多人的電話然後呢裡面有很多他個人的隱私資料之後我們才回頭來今天要討論這件事情\n\n37\n00:13:59,821 --> 00:14:21,726\n因為手機是屬於個人的產品個人的自己的私人的物品但他都報案啦他都報案的意思是說跟你們報案的意思是說報案應該是由內政部來調查不是由警政單位不屬於報案他報案之後這是一個國軍使用的手機嘛所以他的意義不同嘛他是個人的手機他不是國軍他是私人手機對他是私人的手機沒錯但他是以他是報案的時候他有沒有講他是國軍的身份沒有\n\n38\n00:14:22,813 --> 00:14:29,592\n就你們了解沒有講是國軍的身份嗎他沒有告訴你們是國軍的身份就直接只是報師而已那為什麼要報師\n\n39\n00:14:31,414 --> 00:14:59,700\n一般人的手機不見就算啦他是被偷竊他被偷竊那被偷竊之後你們沒有一個準則說國軍的手機被偷竊之後的SOP要怎麼處理沒有去做教育我們公用的公務手機的話我們有這樣的管制規定那但是私人的手機我們就沒有這樣的綠定說要怎麼來執行因為這是他私人的財產那他東西掉了是讓他報案可是你們裡面都灌了MDM啦代表說這個手機跟你們的國軍這裡是有一定的聯繫程度的啊\n\n40\n00:15:00,570 --> 00:15:23,592\n關於那個功能是限制他在營區不能做這個我知道但是問題是你這東西他裡面還有很多LINE跟他的群組裡面就已經有很多相關跟國軍相關的資料還有呢可能有各種的電話號碼跟他自己在國軍裡面你知道嗎他有一個記事本裡面就寫著他在國軍裡面各式各樣發生的事情其實東西全部都流到中國大陸去沒有國安的問題嗎\n\n41\n00:15:24,793 --> 00:15:44,250\n所以我的意思是說對這當然是他私人的財產但他當他跟國軍連在一起的時候他MDN沒有解除你們會不知道嗎我問一下這個MDN他沒有解除這件事情你們不知道嗎一定沒有辦法解除我剛剛有講過他MDN一定要在專用的這個電腦上面才能移除所以你們在國軍退役的時候那你一併幫他移除那他私人手機就不移除了\n\n42\n00:15:51,736 --> 00:16:18,180\n移除會移除對啊那你這樣講前後矛盾啊你不是說他的私人手機也會被移除嗎他被偷竊他還沒有退伍前就已經移屍了他不是在退伍後移屍的那你們就是沒有注意這個漏洞啊他如果手機掉了呢就沒有辦法移除MDN然後呢你們也沒有去追蹤那你不覺得這中間那我如果是一個中共的間諜我是專門去偷那些士兵的手機就好啦\n\n43\n00:16:20,322 --> 00:16:47,041\n你們沒有發現這裡面有很嚴重的國安問題嗎我知道誰在當兵的我就趁他不注意的時候把他手機偷走這有很難嗎他平常時也要出來生活也會放假我只要掌握這些名單比方說剛才他的這些名單上面都是我們現在的國軍嘛還有長官的聯絡方式嘛那你可能說你的這個LINE群組裡面有一些人他可能是義務役可是長官的聯絡方式他是一定是志願役的啊\n\n44\n00:16:47,521 --> 00:16:56,696\n那我知道他的名字之後那我就去找一找我看到他那手機在桌上我順手牽羊摸走之後那你們也沒有任何辦法可以管啊\n\n45\n00:16:57,816 --> 00:17:22,043\n有沒有辦法追蹤啊有沒有辦法處理啊怎麼會這樣呢針對能夠移除後端移除的這個問題我們下期會研究看怎麼你們需要花多少時間研究啊這事情已經很久了因為我後來去查從你們MDM開始做起之後就有非常多的基層的士兵在抱怨相關的這個APP做得非常的爛然後呢也有很多的漏洞\n\n46\n00:17:22,543 --> 00:17:43,436\n但是你們都沒有去注意我們基層軍人的聲音然後今天引發了這樣子的國安問題所以我想要請問你們需要多久的時間能夠去把這樣子的一個系統做升級做重新的管理然後避免這種所謂只要被偷竊了那你的MDM然後你的所有的資訊就都外洩出去了\n\n47\n00:17:44,676 --> 00:18:01,242\n今天幸好他是一個EUE他是退伍的如果今天是志願役呢如果他是高層長官然後遺失了呢那會發生什麼事會發生什麼事如果是你們三位的手機突然不見了呢會發生什麼事你有沒有想過\n\n48\n00:18:02,796 --> 00:18:29,765\n如果郭部長的手機被偷了呢?那怎麼辦?你們有辦法追蹤嗎?你有辦法解除他手機裡面的內容嗎?那我們不是所有國軍的重要的資訊都流出去了嗎?我們一般不會在私人的手機上面聊公務事情你怎麼知道?你怎麼知道?你剛剛都已經講是私人手機所以他要用私人手機做什麼?那是他的財產\n\n49\n00:18:31,502 --> 00:18:32,987\n所以那只是你的假定而已\n\n50\n00:18:34,142 --> 00:19:00,870\n委員剛剛指導的四個重點我們後續研究完精進的措施我們會到這個一定要精進研究因為是今天剛好他是EWE如果是在場的你們幾位的手機被偷竊的話然後後續的對我們國安影響是非常非常非常大的因為你們沒有追蹤的機會你們沒有辦法清空他的資訊然後你們認為那是他的私人財產所以你沒有辦法去動他\n\n51\n00:19:01,912 --> 00:19:14,068\n所以今年幸好是一個小小的義務役如果今天是我們的志願役甚至是高層那不好意思我們的國安漏洞可大了所以請我們的國軍一定要重視這件事情儘速改善謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n229\t23571\t想請問一下那媒體報導的時候就最近有談到如果今天我們有台灣人他的身分證那他也同時有中國大陸的這個身分證中華人民共和國的身分證那義務役仍然是能夠可以當兵的是嗎\n39960\t56886\t我是連議次長 按照那個兩岸關係條例九十一條裡面明定就是他具有中國身份的然後他有我們中華民國身份他在這個義務上面他還是要去盡到他應該盡的責任那有沒有打算要收政這一條\n57779\t86216\t那是陸委會的兩岸關係條例對啊 有沒有打算跟陸委會來協調說要刪除這條你們覺得這樣子是正確的嗎因為義務役如果他有中華人民共和國的身份證能夠來當兵的話有沒有想過一種可能是我們中華民國國軍的組成裡面會有中國共產黨的黨員或者是被中共收買來發展組織的荒謬的現象發生有沒有可能\n86823\t112457\t有可能 這個我們再跟陸委會那邊來做一個有可能嘛 前一陣子有一個網紅說台灣有20萬的人領有中共身分證雖然這個內政部查了之後也沒那麼多但假設他說的是真的好了 換算是1%也就是說呢 我們國軍裡面有潛藏1600萬的中共同路人那請問你們面對這樣子的一個說法你們覺得是正確的嗎\n115475\t118863\t這個數據的部分我們沒有辦法去做一個說明說它是否正確\n119830\t144247\t那你們有去檢查或核實嗎要如何查核目前我們現在已經按照陸委會的指導就是請全軍所有人不管志願役或者是義務役的都要去填寫他的他是否具有只要填寫就好了沒有辦法查然後只要是志願役的他如果沒有按照實際來去做填寫那後面如果查到他就會上司擔任公職\n144987\t172594\t所以他要被查到嘛我們沒有辦法去做查核那他只有如果有人舉報被查到的話才有可能會去做後續的動作是那這樣子的話其實還是有很高的風險啊好那接下來呢為什麼我要討論這個就是大家今天最關心的就是腰塞管理的部分那這個阿兵哥的手機遺失流到中國大陸裡面呢這個訓練照看起來這個沒有什麼問題但是裡面有這個手機的長官的電話\n174514\t201416\t那我想請問一下你們知不知道這個13拐的他不見的手機不見的時間是在什麼時候委員好我是陸軍事務部常務長我們從這個相關的訊息來了解這員無姓士兵他是在112年9月26號退伍那我們掌握到他的一些通聯的狀況大致\n205258\t218087\t上面的訊息的時間大致是停留在112年的3月左右3月6號左右好那我們看一下下一張圖其實實際上面它上面有寫時間嗎這個是他手機在2021年7月28號上鎖管制的最後時間\n224191\t245294\t對最後管制時間所以他是在更之後的時候手機才弄丟的嗎是的OK好那呢好再來我要問一下說現行的規定必須要登錄辦理這個管制標籤的註銷但沒有強制要求國軍人員一定要安裝能夠遠端刪除手機內容的軟體那反觀呢我們可以看一下美國\n246195\t271091\t美國他們的做法呢 這邊就有寫嘛Consider installing security that offers remote location.We place this on the web等等的 就這句話他呢是有一個方式是如果你的手機遺失的話他有權去把你的這裡面的這些資料全部都清除那為什麼我們做了這個MDM但是我們卻沒有相關的做法\n273753\t295787\t我們慣了MDN是禁止在營內裡面照相攝影然後熱點開放以及這個藍芽功能不能使用那如果要移除的話一定要專門的電腦裡面才能移除MDN這個裝置那剛剛在省委員在執行的時候也在講到這一點民用手機是不是可以安裝這個軟體我們這個下去我們會研究如果行的話我們會來\n296087\t323971\t再來你們這個MDM已經被非常多的國軍所詬病就說你們怎麼會做出這種十年前的產物比方說你們在Android的手機跟在iPhone的手機裡面灌了這個MDM之後當它退伍的時候要把它的MDM取消的時候結果完全不一樣如果是Android的話它資料可以被留下來如果是iPhone的話它資料會全部被清除你們知道這件事嗎\n324491\t348675\t知道那為什麼會要這樣子因為這個是我們也是偽中科院來執行這個設計MDM那中科院是不是沒做好我用iPhone的手機跟我用Android手機我都是帶手機進去的我們都換了MDM了那為什麼用Android手機它可以留下它的備份紀錄那iPhone卻要全部消除\n349515\t377149\t跟委員報告我是中科院副院長那iOS的手機它基本上iOS是一個封閉的系統那Android的系統它是一個開放式架構所以開放式架構對我們在做設計包含了安裝移除或者是monitor這些對開放式架構它有一定的程序所以我們比較能夠可以掌握但是iOS的話它的所有的安裝的軟體要經過這個Apple手機Apple公司的一些認證所以可能在這個上面確實是有一些困難\n377449\t400658\t好那我在講你會發現有很多的這個軍人朋友都告訴你有什麼樣方式可以逃脫比方說如果你在軍營之前你在入營之前就先灌好這個LINE或者是其他軟體的話然後你再繼續灌MDN的話它原本灌的東西就也不會被刪掉\n401522\t423729\t所以這可能才是導致為什麼他的這個為什麼他有這麼多的LINE我們看一下那個圖片你可以看到他的LINE裡面呢如果是剛剛那兩張照片的話我並不是很在意喔可是他的LINE裡面包含是我們跟這個比如說度蜜月一三七啊早餐的稍微便當已經放在桌上啊\n424809\t440700\t連長福當昭好啊我們到了衛訓中心報到啊然後呢這個兵器組的誰誰誰誰誰他基本上把我們很多的士兵的名字都放在上面以及我們的長官的聯絡電話全部都放在上面這有沒有很明顯的國安問題\n442605\t461216\t向委員報告這些資料我們去做過審認它是你如何審認的我們就目前可以看得到的資料你從哪裡看的就是網路上公開網路上而已那網路上對啊手機不在你手上嘛那網路上它只公佈一小部分而已啊\n462496\t490567\t這個大陸的這個網友他只貼了兩三張圖而已我跟委員報告一下我們清查了一下這位士兵他在四年的服役務役的期間他所擔任的職務都是所謂沒有揭秘的他就是比較基層的一般專長的士兵基層的一般專長士兵但他的聯絡的方式裡面卻填寫了我們非常多的長官的聯絡電話他就是一般在行政工作上的回報並沒有涉及到好我們看下一張好不好是\n492133\t520848\t其實你可以看到呢這個是另外一張最新的這個機組是國軍他手機被偷了資料完全沒有清國軍一三旅這個的電話裡面有他的後勤跟上級的這個相關的對話然後呢裡面呢他也有很多他自己寫的備忘錄就包含他在當兵的時候一些心得然後呢他的這個整個過程然後呢後面呢他裡面也寫說這是班級群\n521428\t538288\t所以我想要問一下如果說這些名單裡面都外露了那這個中共他這裡他可以掌握我們的國軍的這個名冊名單還有長官的聯絡電話之後那是不是他在發展組織或是刺探情報上面他有更簡單的方式能夠來做\n539725\t566675\t跟委員報告基本上在這方面的確是有一個我們需要檢討精進的部分也就是說他的手機在報遺失或是更換的時候事實上他這個群組我們也律定了相關的管理規範單位是沒有去落實把他做這個退群的動作如果他退出這個群組這相關的資訊是不應該顯示的那其實我們也從這個案例上面去就我們的規定跟執行\n567555\t581926\t是否有落實我們也要持續的去做要求向委員說明那再來呢我要再講一個齁這個也是我們的軍人說的他說呢如果你在入營之前你就要想好你要用什麼LINE帳號\n582606\t610655\t想好之後呢在一開始或第一次售價的時候帶回營區灌MDM所以呢因為第一週你要帶什麼呢頂多只是被保管而已班長也沒空把你怎麼樣所以呢如果你在第一週的時候你就把你的LINE手機準備好的話那之後呢你就不需要再另外加群組也不需要另外一支手機那在灌MDM的時候其實它就有一個漏洞你們知道這件事情嗎\n613663\t629254\t不知道不知道這個非常清楚在網路上面都可以查得到很多人在教學要怎麼樣同時讓你的Line跟你的這個MDM在一起他最簡單的方式就是他先灌了我們的軟體之後然後呢他再去加MDM\n629656\t651583\t因為私人的LINE跟MDN是兩件事情它不會有任何的衝突也不會有影響我們剛剛講過灌MDN這件事情是禁止我們官兵在營內使用照相攝影熱點分享以及這個藍芽功能是限制他們這些功能不能使用它之前灌了LINE的群組它還是LINE那個是沒有不相衝突的\n652623\t680682\t所以呢他裡面就講說呢你基本上呢你可以先把要就是因為他認為說呢你如果之後再加群組或放假回報沒有LINE的話會很麻煩那你灌MDN的時候Android帶傳輸線跟登出裡面的帳號基本上呢都可以重正常灌不用重設甚至Android版本的MDN還可以自己自動上鎖跟檢索所以呢比起要監管的Apple的這個安裝時間比較快\n682083\t698386\t那我最後我要講的意思就是說你們在MDM的這個設計上面雖然剛剛講說可以隱藏一些資訊但是有幾個缺失第一個缺失就是其實在網路上已經有很多人他們嘗試去破解這個東西而且是成功的\n699006\t723764\t第二件事情呢就是你們在同樣是手機裡面在Android的跟在Apple裡面他們最後處理掉的方法是完全不一樣這對很多人來說是並不公平的一件事情第三件事情呢是在這個手機它遺失之後我們卻沒有任何的能力去追蹤它的手機在哪裡然後並且把它清除簡單來說如果你用Apple或是用Android的話\n724665\t741204\t實際上面呢你是可以在他報案之後第一時間就可以去追蹤他的手機的位置定位點的但是呢我們的國軍卻沒有這麼做所以才發生這次的這個所謂的二手機的事件所以我想問一下這四件事情到底是哪裡至愛難行導致於這樣子的情況發生\n744841\t762162\t你們有沒有打算重新去檢討你們MDM是一個很過時然後被很多的基層軍人認為是很沒有用很沒有意義而且很容易破解然後呢這個也很不先進的一個東西你們有沒有考慮要重新去檢討整個機制\n763463\t783179\t這個我們可以下去之後再考慮一下因為事實上中科院的MDN它的版本是一直都有在更新的那更新的還是很爛啊我剛剛講的就是2025年的時候的士兵他們所說的東西啊還不夠新嗎2025年的時候年初的時候大家還在討論這件事情啊在這個事件爆發之前大家就在討論這件事啦\n784690\t807810\t那我們下去再研究看是不是有更好的方式可以功能性要設置限制他們不能使用然後但是有更好的軟體可以我講一個最簡單的如果我今天我的手機遺失的時候其實它上面都有那個追蹤碼那每一支手機它的型號上它都有追蹤碼坦白說透過我們的相關系統裡面是可以追蹤那個手機現在在哪裡的\n808490\t817475\t那如果當下他報案之後我們立即去追的話他還會被賣到大陸去嗎他在台灣可能就被找到啦那為什麼沒有做這件事情呢\n818775\t839341\t這是現行的這是現行的我們的制度就可以做到的東西啊我們現行的科技就可以完成的東西啊為什麼我們要等到這個手機被賣到流浪到大陸之後然後呢被打開了然後裡面有很多人的電話然後呢裡面有很多他個人的隱私資料之後我們才回頭來今天要討論這件事情\n839821\t861726\t因為手機是屬於個人的產品個人的自己的私人的物品但他都報案啦他都報案的意思是說跟你們報案的意思是說報案應該是由內政部來調查不是由警政單位不屬於報案他報案之後這是一個國軍使用的手機嘛所以他的意義不同嘛他是個人的手機他不是國軍他是私人手機對他是私人的手機沒錯但他是以他是報案的時候他有沒有講他是國軍的身份沒有\n862813\t869592\t就你們了解沒有講是國軍的身份嗎他沒有告訴你們是國軍的身份就直接只是報師而已那為什麼要報師\n871414\t899700\t一般人的手機不見就算啦他是被偷竊他被偷竊那被偷竊之後你們沒有一個準則說國軍的手機被偷竊之後的SOP要怎麼處理沒有去做教育我們公用的公務手機的話我們有這樣的管制規定那但是私人的手機我們就沒有這樣的綠定說要怎麼來執行因為這是他私人的財產那他東西掉了是讓他報案可是你們裡面都灌了MDM啦代表說這個手機跟你們的國軍這裡是有一定的聯繫程度的啊\n900570\t923592\t關於那個功能是限制他在營區不能做這個我知道但是問題是你這東西他裡面還有很多LINE跟他的群組裡面就已經有很多相關跟國軍相關的資料還有呢可能有各種的電話號碼跟他自己在國軍裡面你知道嗎他有一個記事本裡面就寫著他在國軍裡面各式各樣發生的事情其實東西全部都流到中國大陸去沒有國安的問題嗎\n924793\t944250\t所以我的意思是說對這當然是他私人的財產但他當他跟國軍連在一起的時候他MDN沒有解除你們會不知道嗎我問一下這個MDN他沒有解除這件事情你們不知道嗎一定沒有辦法解除我剛剛有講過他MDN一定要在專用的這個電腦上面才能移除所以你們在國軍退役的時候那你一併幫他移除那他私人手機就不移除了\n951736\t978180\t移除 會移除對啊 那你這樣講前後矛盾啊你不是說他的私人手機也會被移除嗎他被偷竊 他還沒有退伍前就已經移屍了他不是在退伍後移屍的那你們就是沒有注意這個漏洞啊他如果手機掉了呢就沒有辦法移除MDN然後呢 你們也沒有去追蹤那你不覺得這中間那我如果是一個中共的間諜我是專門去偷那些士兵的手機就好啦\n980322\t1007041\t你們沒有發現這裡面有很嚴重的國安問題嗎我知道誰在當兵的我就趁他不注意的時候把他手機偷走這有很難嗎他平常時也要出來生活也會放假我只要掌握這些名單比方說剛才他的這些名單上面都是我們現在的國軍嘛還有長官的聯絡方式嘛那你可能說你的這個LINE群組裡面有一些人他可能是義務役可是長官的聯絡方式他是一定是志願役的啊\n1007521\t1016696\t那我知道他的名字之後那我就去找一找我看到他那手機在桌上我順手牽羊摸走之後那你們也沒有任何辦法可以管啊\n1017816\t1042043\t有沒有辦法追蹤啊有沒有辦法處理啊怎麼會這樣呢針對能夠移除後端移除的這個問題我們下期會研究看怎麼你們需要花多少時間研究啊這事情已經很久了因為我後來去查從你們MDM開始做起之後就有非常多的基層的士兵在抱怨相關的這個APP做得非常的爛然後呢也有很多的漏洞\n1042543\t1063436\t但是你們都沒有去注意我們基層軍人的聲音然後今天引發了這樣子的國安問題所以我想要請問你們需要多久的時間能夠去把這樣子的一個系統做升級做重新的管理然後避免這種所謂只要被偷竊了那你的MDM然後你的所有的資訊就都外洩出去了\n1064676\t1081242\t今天幸好他是一個EUE他是退伍的如果今天是志願役呢如果他是高層長官然後遺失了呢那會發生什麼事會發生什麼事如果是你們三位的手機突然不見了呢會發生什麼事你有沒有想過\n1082796\t1109765\t如果郭部長的手機被偷了呢?那怎麼辦?你們有辦法追蹤嗎?你有辦法解除他手機裡面的內容嗎?那我們不是所有國軍的重要的資訊都流出去了嗎?我們一般不會在私人的手機上面聊公務事情你怎麼知道?你怎麼知道?你剛剛都已經講是私人手機所以他要用私人手機做什麼?那是他的財產\n1111502\t1112987\t所以那只是你的假定而已\n1114142\t1140870\t委員剛剛指導的四個重點我們後續研究完精進的措施我們會到這個一定要精進研究因為是今天剛好他是EWE如果是在場的你們幾位的手機被偷竊的話然後後續的對我們國安影響是非常非常非常大的因為你們沒有追蹤的機會你們沒有辦法清空他的資訊然後你們認為那是他的私人財產所以你沒有辦法去動他\n1141912\t1154068\t所以今年幸好是一個小小的義務役如果今天是我們的志願役甚至是高層那不好意思我們的國安漏洞可大了所以請我們的國軍一定要重視這件事情儘速改善謝謝\n","txt":"想請問一下那媒體報導的時候就最近有談到如果今天我們有台灣人他的身分證那他也同時有中國大陸的這個身分證中華人民共和國的身分證那義務役仍然是能夠可以當兵的是嗎\n我是連議次長 按照那個兩岸關係條例九十一條裡面明定就是他具有中國身份的然後他有我們中華民國身份他在這個義務上面他還是要去盡到他應該盡的責任那有沒有打算要收政這一條\n那是陸委會的兩岸關係條例對啊 有沒有打算跟陸委會來協調說要刪除這條你們覺得這樣子是正確的嗎因為義務役如果他有中華人民共和國的身份證能夠來當兵的話有沒有想過一種可能是我們中華民國國軍的組成裡面會有中國共產黨的黨員或者是被中共收買來發展組織的荒謬的現象發生有沒有可能\n有可能 這個我們再跟陸委會那邊來做一個有可能嘛 前一陣子有一個網紅說台灣有20萬的人領有中共身分證雖然這個內政部查了之後也沒那麼多但假設他說的是真的好了 換算是1%也就是說呢 我們國軍裡面有潛藏1600萬的中共同路人那請問你們面對這樣子的一個說法你們覺得是正確的嗎\n這個數據的部分我們沒有辦法去做一個說明說它是否正確\n那你們有去檢查或核實嗎要如何查核目前我們現在已經按照陸委會的指導就是請全軍所有人不管志願役或者是義務役的都要去填寫他的他是否具有只要填寫就好了沒有辦法查然後只要是志願役的他如果沒有按照實際來去做填寫那後面如果查到他就會上司擔任公職\n所以他要被查到嘛我們沒有辦法去做查核那他只有如果有人舉報被查到的話才有可能會去做後續的動作是那這樣子的話其實還是有很高的風險啊好那接下來呢為什麼我要討論這個就是大家今天最關心的就是腰塞管理的部分那這個阿兵哥的手機遺失流到中國大陸裡面呢這個訓練照看起來這個沒有什麼問題但是裡面有這個手機的長官的電話\n那我想請問一下你們知不知道這個13拐的他不見的手機不見的時間是在什麼時候委員好我是陸軍事務部常務長我們從這個相關的訊息來了解這員無姓士兵他是在112年9月26號退伍那我們掌握到他的一些通聯的狀況大致\n上面的訊息的時間大致是停留在112年的3月左右3月6號左右好那我們看一下下一張圖其實實際上面它上面有寫時間嗎這個是他手機在2021年7月28號上鎖管制的最後時間\n對最後管制時間所以他是在更之後的時候手機才弄丟的嗎是的OK好那呢好再來我要問一下說現行的規定必須要登錄辦理這個管制標籤的註銷但沒有強制要求國軍人員一定要安裝能夠遠端刪除手機內容的軟體那反觀呢我們可以看一下美國\n美國他們的做法呢 這邊就有寫嘛Consider installing security that offers remote location.We place this on the web等等的 就這句話他呢是有一個方式是如果你的手機遺失的話他有權去把你的這裡面的這些資料全部都清除那為什麼我們做了這個MDM但是我們卻沒有相關的做法\n我們慣了MDN是禁止在營內裡面照相攝影然後熱點開放以及這個藍芽功能不能使用那如果要移除的話一定要專門的電腦裡面才能移除MDN這個裝置那剛剛在省委員在執行的時候也在講到這一點民用手機是不是可以安裝這個軟體我們這個下去我們會研究如果行的話我們會來\n再來你們這個MDM已經被非常多的國軍所詬病就說你們怎麼會做出這種十年前的產物比方說你們在Android的手機跟在iPhone的手機裡面灌了這個MDM之後當它退伍的時候要把它的MDM取消的時候結果完全不一樣如果是Android的話它資料可以被留下來如果是iPhone的話它資料會全部被清除你們知道這件事嗎\n知道那為什麼會要這樣子因為這個是我們也是偽中科院來執行這個設計MDM那中科院是不是沒做好我用iPhone的手機跟我用Android手機我都是帶手機進去的我們都換了MDM了那為什麼用Android手機它可以留下它的備份紀錄那iPhone卻要全部消除\n跟委員報告我是中科院副院長那iOS的手機它基本上iOS是一個封閉的系統那Android的系統它是一個開放式架構所以開放式架構對我們在做設計包含了安裝移除或者是monitor這些對開放式架構它有一定的程序所以我們比較能夠可以掌握但是iOS的話它的所有的安裝的軟體要經過這個Apple手機Apple公司的一些認證所以可能在這個上面確實是有一些困難\n好那我在講你會發現有很多的這個軍人朋友都告訴你有什麼樣方式可以逃脫比方說如果你在軍營之前你在入營之前就先灌好這個LINE或者是其他軟體的話然後你再繼續灌MDN的話它原本灌的東西就也不會被刪掉\n所以這可能才是導致為什麼他的這個為什麼他有這麼多的LINE我們看一下那個圖片你可以看到他的LINE裡面呢如果是剛剛那兩張照片的話我並不是很在意喔可是他的LINE裡面包含是我們跟這個比如說度蜜月一三七啊早餐的稍微便當已經放在桌上啊\n連長福當昭好啊我們到了衛訓中心報到啊然後呢這個兵器組的誰誰誰誰誰他基本上把我們很多的士兵的名字都放在上面以及我們的長官的聯絡電話全部都放在上面這有沒有很明顯的國安問題\n向委員報告這些資料我們去做過審認它是你如何審認的我們就目前可以看得到的資料你從哪裡看的就是網路上公開網路上而已那網路上對啊手機不在你手上嘛那網路上它只公佈一小部分而已啊\n這個大陸的這個網友他只貼了兩三張圖而已我跟委員報告一下我們清查了一下這位士兵他在四年的服役務役的期間他所擔任的職務都是所謂沒有揭秘的他就是比較基層的一般專長的士兵基層的一般專長士兵但他的聯絡的方式裡面卻填寫了我們非常多的長官的聯絡電話他就是一般在行政工作上的回報並沒有涉及到好我們看下一張好不好是\n其實你可以看到呢這個是另外一張最新的這個機組是國軍他手機被偷了資料完全沒有清國軍一三旅這個的電話裡面有他的後勤跟上級的這個相關的對話然後呢裡面呢他也有很多他自己寫的備忘錄就包含他在當兵的時候一些心得然後呢他的這個整個過程然後呢後面呢他裡面也寫說這是班級群\n所以我想要問一下如果說這些名單裡面都外露了那這個中共他這裡他可以掌握我們的國軍的這個名冊名單還有長官的聯絡電話之後那是不是他在發展組織或是刺探情報上面他有更簡單的方式能夠來做\n跟委員報告基本上在這方面的確是有一個我們需要檢討精進的部分也就是說他的手機在報遺失或是更換的時候事實上他這個群組我們也律定了相關的管理規範單位是沒有去落實把他做這個退群的動作如果他退出這個群組這相關的資訊是不應該顯示的那其實我們也從這個案例上面去就我們的規定跟執行\n是否有落實我們也要持續的去做要求向委員說明那再來呢我要再講一個齁這個也是我們的軍人說的他說呢如果你在入營之前你就要想好你要用什麼LINE帳號\n想好之後呢在一開始或第一次售價的時候帶回營區灌MDM所以呢因為第一週你要帶什麼呢頂多只是被保管而已班長也沒空把你怎麼樣所以呢如果你在第一週的時候你就把你的LINE手機準備好的話那之後呢你就不需要再另外加群組也不需要另外一支手機那在灌MDM的時候其實它就有一個漏洞你們知道這件事情嗎\n不知道不知道這個非常清楚在網路上面都可以查得到很多人在教學要怎麼樣同時讓你的Line跟你的這個MDM在一起他最簡單的方式就是他先灌了我們的軟體之後然後呢他再去加MDM\n因為私人的LINE跟MDN是兩件事情它不會有任何的衝突也不會有影響我們剛剛講過灌MDN這件事情是禁止我們官兵在營內使用照相攝影熱點分享以及這個藍芽功能是限制他們這些功能不能使用它之前灌了LINE的群組它還是LINE那個是沒有不相衝突的\n所以呢他裡面就講說呢你基本上呢你可以先把要就是因為他認為說呢你如果之後再加群組或放假回報沒有LINE的話會很麻煩那你灌MDN的時候Android帶傳輸線跟登出裡面的帳號基本上呢都可以重正常灌不用重設甚至Android版本的MDN還可以自己自動上鎖跟檢索所以呢比起要監管的Apple的這個安裝時間比較快\n那我最後我要講的意思就是說你們在MDM的這個設計上面雖然剛剛講說可以隱藏一些資訊但是有幾個缺失第一個缺失就是其實在網路上已經有很多人他們嘗試去破解這個東西而且是成功的\n第二件事情呢就是你們在同樣是手機裡面在Android的跟在Apple裡面他們最後處理掉的方法是完全不一樣這對很多人來說是並不公平的一件事情第三件事情呢是在這個手機它遺失之後我們卻沒有任何的能力去追蹤它的手機在哪裡然後並且把它清除簡單來說如果你用Apple或是用Android的話\n實際上面呢你是可以在他報案之後第一時間就可以去追蹤他的手機的位置定位點的但是呢我們的國軍卻沒有這麼做所以才發生這次的這個所謂的二手機的事件所以我想問一下這四件事情到底是哪裡至愛難行導致於這樣子的情況發生\n你們有沒有打算重新去檢討你們MDM是一個很過時然後被很多的基層軍人認為是很沒有用很沒有意義而且很容易破解然後呢這個也很不先進的一個東西你們有沒有考慮要重新去檢討整個機制\n這個我們可以下去之後再考慮一下因為事實上中科院的MDN它的版本是一直都有在更新的那更新的還是很爛啊我剛剛講的就是2025年的時候的士兵他們所說的東西啊還不夠新嗎2025年的時候年初的時候大家還在討論這件事情啊在這個事件爆發之前大家就在討論這件事啦\n那我們下去再研究看是不是有更好的方式可以功能性要設置限制他們不能使用然後但是有更好的軟體可以我講一個最簡單的如果我今天我的手機遺失的時候其實它上面都有那個追蹤碼那每一支手機它的型號上它都有追蹤碼坦白說透過我們的相關系統裡面是可以追蹤那個手機現在在哪裡的\n那如果當下他報案之後我們立即去追的話他還會被賣到大陸去嗎他在台灣可能就被找到啦那為什麼沒有做這件事情呢\n這是現行的這是現行的我們的制度就可以做到的東西啊我們現行的科技就可以完成的東西啊為什麼我們要等到這個手機被賣到流浪到大陸之後然後呢被打開了然後裡面有很多人的電話然後呢裡面有很多他個人的隱私資料之後我們才回頭來今天要討論這件事情\n因為手機是屬於個人的產品個人的自己的私人的物品但他都報案啦他都報案的意思是說跟你們報案的意思是說報案應該是由內政部來調查不是由警政單位不屬於報案他報案之後這是一個國軍使用的手機嘛所以他的意義不同嘛他是個人的手機他不是國軍他是私人手機對他是私人的手機沒錯但他是以他是報案的時候他有沒有講他是國軍的身份沒有\n就你們了解沒有講是國軍的身份嗎他沒有告訴你們是國軍的身份就直接只是報師而已那為什麼要報師\n一般人的手機不見就算啦他是被偷竊他被偷竊那被偷竊之後你們沒有一個準則說國軍的手機被偷竊之後的SOP要怎麼處理沒有去做教育我們公用的公務手機的話我們有這樣的管制規定那但是私人的手機我們就沒有這樣的綠定說要怎麼來執行因為這是他私人的財產那他東西掉了是讓他報案可是你們裡面都灌了MDM啦代表說這個手機跟你們的國軍這裡是有一定的聯繫程度的啊\n關於那個功能是限制他在營區不能做這個我知道但是問題是你這東西他裡面還有很多LINE跟他的群組裡面就已經有很多相關跟國軍相關的資料還有呢可能有各種的電話號碼跟他自己在國軍裡面你知道嗎他有一個記事本裡面就寫著他在國軍裡面各式各樣發生的事情其實東西全部都流到中國大陸去沒有國安的問題嗎\n所以我的意思是說對這當然是他私人的財產但他當他跟國軍連在一起的時候他MDN沒有解除你們會不知道嗎我問一下這個MDN他沒有解除這件事情你們不知道嗎一定沒有辦法解除我剛剛有講過他MDN一定要在專用的這個電腦上面才能移除所以你們在國軍退役的時候那你一併幫他移除那他私人手機就不移除了\n移除 會移除對啊 那你這樣講前後矛盾啊你不是說他的私人手機也會被移除嗎他被偷竊 他還沒有退伍前就已經移屍了他不是在退伍後移屍的那你們就是沒有注意這個漏洞啊他如果手機掉了呢就沒有辦法移除MDN然後呢 你們也沒有去追蹤那你不覺得這中間那我如果是一個中共的間諜我是專門去偷那些士兵的手機就好啦\n你們沒有發現這裡面有很嚴重的國安問題嗎我知道誰在當兵的我就趁他不注意的時候把他手機偷走這有很難嗎他平常時也要出來生活也會放假我只要掌握這些名單比方說剛才他的這些名單上面都是我們現在的國軍嘛還有長官的聯絡方式嘛那你可能說你的這個LINE群組裡面有一些人他可能是義務役可是長官的聯絡方式他是一定是志願役的啊\n那我知道他的名字之後那我就去找一找我看到他那手機在桌上我順手牽羊摸走之後那你們也沒有任何辦法可以管啊\n有沒有辦法追蹤啊有沒有辦法處理啊怎麼會這樣呢針對能夠移除後端移除的這個問題我們下期會研究看怎麼你們需要花多少時間研究啊這事情已經很久了因為我後來去查從你們MDM開始做起之後就有非常多的基層的士兵在抱怨相關的這個APP做得非常的爛然後呢也有很多的漏洞\n但是你們都沒有去注意我們基層軍人的聲音然後今天引發了這樣子的國安問題所以我想要請問你們需要多久的時間能夠去把這樣子的一個系統做升級做重新的管理然後避免這種所謂只要被偷竊了那你的MDM然後你的所有的資訊就都外洩出去了\n今天幸好他是一個EUE他是退伍的如果今天是志願役呢如果他是高層長官然後遺失了呢那會發生什麼事會發生什麼事如果是你們三位的手機突然不見了呢會發生什麼事你有沒有想過\n如果郭部長的手機被偷了呢?那怎麼辦?你們有辦法追蹤嗎?你有辦法解除他手機裡面的內容嗎?那我們不是所有國軍的重要的資訊都流出去了嗎?我們一般不會在私人的手機上面聊公務事情你怎麼知道?你怎麼知道?你剛剛都已經講是私人手機所以他要用私人手機做什麼?那是他的財產\n所以那只是你的假定而已\n委員剛剛指導的四個重點我們後續研究完精進的措施我們會到這個一定要精進研究因為是今天剛好他是EWE如果是在場的你們幾位的手機被偷竊的話然後後續的對我們國安影響是非常非常非常大的因為你們沒有追蹤的機會你們沒有辦法清空他的資訊然後你們認為那是他的私人財產所以你沒有辦法去動他\n所以今年幸好是一個小小的義務役如果今天是我們的志願役甚至是高層那不好意思我們的國安漏洞可大了所以請我們的國軍一定要重視這件事情儘速改善謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.229 --> 00:23.571\n想請問一下那媒體報導的時候就最近有談到如果今天我們有台灣人他的身分證那他也同時有中國大陸的這個身分證中華人民共和國的身分證那義務役仍然是能夠可以當兵的是嗎\n\n00:39.960 --> 00:56.886\n我是連議次長按照那個兩岸關係條例九十一條裡面明定就是他具有中國身份的然後他有我們中華民國身份他在這個義務上面他還是要去盡到他應該盡的責任那有沒有打算要收政這一條\n\n00:57.779 --> 01:26.216\n那是陸委會的兩岸關係條例對啊有沒有打算跟陸委會來協調說要刪除這條你們覺得這樣子是正確的嗎因為義務役如果他有中華人民共和國的身份證能夠來當兵的話有沒有想過一種可能是我們中華民國國軍的組成裡面會有中國共產黨的黨員或者是被中共收買來發展組織的荒謬的現象發生有沒有可能\n\n01:26.823 --> 01:52.457\n有可能這個我們再跟陸委會那邊來做一個有可能嘛前一陣子有一個網紅說台灣有20萬的人領有中共身分證雖然這個內政部查了之後也沒那麼多但假設他說的是真的好了換算是1%也就是說呢我們國軍裡面有潛藏1600萬的中共同路人那請問你們面對這樣子的一個說法你們覺得是正確的嗎\n\n01:55.475 --> 01:58.863\n這個數據的部分我們沒有辦法去做一個說明說它是否正確\n\n01:59.830 --> 02:24.247\n那你們有去檢查或核實嗎要如何查核目前我們現在已經按照陸委會的指導就是請全軍所有人不管志願役或者是義務役的都要去填寫他的他是否具有只要填寫就好了沒有辦法查然後只要是志願役的他如果沒有按照實際來去做填寫那後面如果查到他就會上司擔任公職\n\n02:24.987 --> 02:52.594\n所以他要被查到嘛我們沒有辦法去做查核那他只有如果有人舉報被查到的話才有可能會去做後續的動作是那這樣子的話其實還是有很高的風險啊好那接下來呢為什麼我要討論這個就是大家今天最關心的就是腰塞管理的部分那這個阿兵哥的手機遺失流到中國大陸裡面呢這個訓練照看起來這個沒有什麼問題但是裡面有這個手機的長官的電話\n\n02:54.514 --> 03:21.416\n那我想請問一下你們知不知道這個13拐的他不見的手機不見的時間是在什麼時候委員好我是陸軍事務部常務長我們從這個相關的訊息來了解這員無姓士兵他是在112年9月26號退伍那我們掌握到他的一些通聯的狀況大致\n\n03:25.258 --> 03:38.087\n上面的訊息的時間大致是停留在112年的3月左右3月6號左右好那我們看一下下一張圖其實實際上面它上面有寫時間嗎這個是他手機在2021年7月28號上鎖管制的最後時間\n\n03:44.191 --> 04:05.294\n對最後管制時間所以他是在更之後的時候手機才弄丟的嗎是的OK好那呢好再來我要問一下說現行的規定必須要登錄辦理這個管制標籤的註銷但沒有強制要求國軍人員一定要安裝能夠遠端刪除手機內容的軟體那反觀呢我們可以看一下美國\n\n04:06.195 --> 04:31.091\n美國他們的做法呢這邊就有寫嘛Considerinstallingsecuritythatoffersremotelocation.Weplacethisontheweb等等的就這句話他呢是有一個方式是如果你的手機遺失的話他有權去把你的這裡面的這些資料全部都清除那為什麼我們做了這個MDM但是我們卻沒有相關的做法\n\n04:33.753 --> 04:55.787\n我們慣了MDN是禁止在營內裡面照相攝影然後熱點開放以及這個藍芽功能不能使用那如果要移除的話一定要專門的電腦裡面才能移除MDN這個裝置那剛剛在省委員在執行的時候也在講到這一點民用手機是不是可以安裝這個軟體我們這個下去我們會研究如果行的話我們會來\n\n04:56.087 --> 05:23.971\n再來你們這個MDM已經被非常多的國軍所詬病就說你們怎麼會做出這種十年前的產物比方說你們在Android的手機跟在iPhone的手機裡面灌了這個MDM之後當它退伍的時候要把它的MDM取消的時候結果完全不一樣如果是Android的話它資料可以被留下來如果是iPhone的話它資料會全部被清除你們知道這件事嗎\n\n05:24.491 --> 05:48.675\n知道那為什麼會要這樣子因為這個是我們也是偽中科院來執行這個設計MDM那中科院是不是沒做好我用iPhone的手機跟我用Android手機我都是帶手機進去的我們都換了MDM了那為什麼用Android手機它可以留下它的備份紀錄那iPhone卻要全部消除\n\n05:49.515 --> 06:17.149\n跟委員報告我是中科院副院長那iOS的手機它基本上iOS是一個封閉的系統那Android的系統它是一個開放式架構所以開放式架構對我們在做設計包含了安裝移除或者是monitor這些對開放式架構它有一定的程序所以我們比較能夠可以掌握但是iOS的話它的所有的安裝的軟體要經過這個Apple手機Apple公司的一些認證所以可能在這個上面確實是有一些困難\n\n06:17.449 --> 06:40.658\n好那我在講你會發現有很多的這個軍人朋友都告訴你有什麼樣方式可以逃脫比方說如果你在軍營之前你在入營之前就先灌好這個LINE或者是其他軟體的話然後你再繼續灌MDN的話它原本灌的東西就也不會被刪掉\n\n06:41.522 --> 07:03.729\n所以這可能才是導致為什麼他的這個為什麼他有這麼多的LINE我們看一下那個圖片你可以看到他的LINE裡面呢如果是剛剛那兩張照片的話我並不是很在意喔可是他的LINE裡面包含是我們跟這個比如說度蜜月一三七啊早餐的稍微便當已經放在桌上啊\n\n07:04.809 --> 07:20.700\n連長福當昭好啊我們到了衛訓中心報到啊然後呢這個兵器組的誰誰誰誰誰他基本上把我們很多的士兵的名字都放在上面以及我們的長官的聯絡電話全部都放在上面這有沒有很明顯的國安問題\n\n07:22.605 --> 07:41.216\n向委員報告這些資料我們去做過審認它是你如何審認的我們就目前可以看得到的資料你從哪裡看的就是網路上公開網路上而已那網路上對啊手機不在你手上嘛那網路上它只公佈一小部分而已啊\n\n07:42.496 --> 08:10.567\n這個大陸的這個網友他只貼了兩三張圖而已我跟委員報告一下我們清查了一下這位士兵他在四年的服役務役的期間他所擔任的職務都是所謂沒有揭秘的他就是比較基層的一般專長的士兵基層的一般專長士兵但他的聯絡的方式裡面卻填寫了我們非常多的長官的聯絡電話他就是一般在行政工作上的回報並沒有涉及到好我們看下一張好不好是\n\n08:12.133 --> 08:40.848\n其實你可以看到呢這個是另外一張最新的這個機組是國軍他手機被偷了資料完全沒有清國軍一三旅這個的電話裡面有他的後勤跟上級的這個相關的對話然後呢裡面呢他也有很多他自己寫的備忘錄就包含他在當兵的時候一些心得然後呢他的這個整個過程然後呢後面呢他裡面也寫說這是班級群\n\n08:41.428 --> 08:58.288\n所以我想要問一下如果說這些名單裡面都外露了那這個中共他這裡他可以掌握我們的國軍的這個名冊名單還有長官的聯絡電話之後那是不是他在發展組織或是刺探情報上面他有更簡單的方式能夠來做\n\n08:59.725 --> 09:26.675\n跟委員報告基本上在這方面的確是有一個我們需要檢討精進的部分也就是說他的手機在報遺失或是更換的時候事實上他這個群組我們也律定了相關的管理規範單位是沒有去落實把他做這個退群的動作如果他退出這個群組這相關的資訊是不應該顯示的那其實我們也從這個案例上面去就我們的規定跟執行\n\n09:27.555 --> 09:41.926\n是否有落實我們也要持續的去做要求向委員說明那再來呢我要再講一個齁這個也是我們的軍人說的他說呢如果你在入營之前你就要想好你要用什麼LINE帳號\n\n09:42.606 --> 10:10.655\n想好之後呢在一開始或第一次售價的時候帶回營區灌MDM所以呢因為第一週你要帶什麼呢頂多只是被保管而已班長也沒空把你怎麼樣所以呢如果你在第一週的時候你就把你的LINE手機準備好的話那之後呢你就不需要再另外加群組也不需要另外一支手機那在灌MDM的時候其實它就有一個漏洞你們知道這件事情嗎\n\n10:13.663 --> 10:29.254\n不知道不知道這個非常清楚在網路上面都可以查得到很多人在教學要怎麼樣同時讓你的Line跟你的這個MDM在一起他最簡單的方式就是他先灌了我們的軟體之後然後呢他再去加MDM\n\n10:29.656 --> 10:51.583\n因為私人的LINE跟MDN是兩件事情它不會有任何的衝突也不會有影響我們剛剛講過灌MDN這件事情是禁止我們官兵在營內使用照相攝影熱點分享以及這個藍芽功能是限制他們這些功能不能使用它之前灌了LINE的群組它還是LINE那個是沒有不相衝突的\n\n10:52.623 --> 11:20.682\n所以呢他裡面就講說呢你基本上呢你可以先把要就是因為他認為說呢你如果之後再加群組或放假回報沒有LINE的話會很麻煩那你灌MDN的時候Android帶傳輸線跟登出裡面的帳號基本上呢都可以重正常灌不用重設甚至Android版本的MDN還可以自己自動上鎖跟檢索所以呢比起要監管的Apple的這個安裝時間比較快\n\n11:22.083 --> 11:38.386\n那我最後我要講的意思就是說你們在MDM的這個設計上面雖然剛剛講說可以隱藏一些資訊但是有幾個缺失第一個缺失就是其實在網路上已經有很多人他們嘗試去破解這個東西而且是成功的\n\n11:39.006 --> 12:03.764\n第二件事情呢就是你們在同樣是手機裡面在Android的跟在Apple裡面他們最後處理掉的方法是完全不一樣這對很多人來說是並不公平的一件事情第三件事情呢是在這個手機它遺失之後我們卻沒有任何的能力去追蹤它的手機在哪裡然後並且把它清除簡單來說如果你用Apple或是用Android的話\n\n12:04.665 --> 12:21.204\n實際上面呢你是可以在他報案之後第一時間就可以去追蹤他的手機的位置定位點的但是呢我們的國軍卻沒有這麼做所以才發生這次的這個所謂的二手機的事件所以我想問一下這四件事情到底是哪裡至愛難行導致於這樣子的情況發生\n\n12:24.841 --> 12:42.162\n你們有沒有打算重新去檢討你們MDM是一個很過時然後被很多的基層軍人認為是很沒有用很沒有意義而且很容易破解然後呢這個也很不先進的一個東西你們有沒有考慮要重新去檢討整個機制\n\n12:43.463 --> 13:03.179\n這個我們可以下去之後再考慮一下因為事實上中科院的MDN它的版本是一直都有在更新的那更新的還是很爛啊我剛剛講的就是2025年的時候的士兵他們所說的東西啊還不夠新嗎2025年的時候年初的時候大家還在討論這件事情啊在這個事件爆發之前大家就在討論這件事啦\n\n13:04.690 --> 13:27.810\n那我們下去再研究看是不是有更好的方式可以功能性要設置限制他們不能使用然後但是有更好的軟體可以我講一個最簡單的如果我今天我的手機遺失的時候其實它上面都有那個追蹤碼那每一支手機它的型號上它都有追蹤碼坦白說透過我們的相關系統裡面是可以追蹤那個手機現在在哪裡的\n\n13:28.490 --> 13:37.475\n那如果當下他報案之後我們立即去追的話他還會被賣到大陸去嗎他在台灣可能就被找到啦那為什麼沒有做這件事情呢\n\n13:38.775 --> 13:59.341\n這是現行的這是現行的我們的制度就可以做到的東西啊我們現行的科技就可以完成的東西啊為什麼我們要等到這個手機被賣到流浪到大陸之後然後呢被打開了然後裡面有很多人的電話然後呢裡面有很多他個人的隱私資料之後我們才回頭來今天要討論這件事情\n\n13:59.821 --> 14:21.726\n因為手機是屬於個人的產品個人的自己的私人的物品但他都報案啦他都報案的意思是說跟你們報案的意思是說報案應該是由內政部來調查不是由警政單位不屬於報案他報案之後這是一個國軍使用的手機嘛所以他的意義不同嘛他是個人的手機他不是國軍他是私人手機對他是私人的手機沒錯但他是以他是報案的時候他有沒有講他是國軍的身份沒有\n\n14:22.813 --> 14:29.592\n就你們了解沒有講是國軍的身份嗎他沒有告訴你們是國軍的身份就直接只是報師而已那為什麼要報師\n\n14:31.414 --> 14:59.700\n一般人的手機不見就算啦他是被偷竊他被偷竊那被偷竊之後你們沒有一個準則說國軍的手機被偷竊之後的SOP要怎麼處理沒有去做教育我們公用的公務手機的話我們有這樣的管制規定那但是私人的手機我們就沒有這樣的綠定說要怎麼來執行因為這是他私人的財產那他東西掉了是讓他報案可是你們裡面都灌了MDM啦代表說這個手機跟你們的國軍這裡是有一定的聯繫程度的啊\n\n15:00.570 --> 15:23.592\n關於那個功能是限制他在營區不能做這個我知道但是問題是你這東西他裡面還有很多LINE跟他的群組裡面就已經有很多相關跟國軍相關的資料還有呢可能有各種的電話號碼跟他自己在國軍裡面你知道嗎他有一個記事本裡面就寫著他在國軍裡面各式各樣發生的事情其實東西全部都流到中國大陸去沒有國安的問題嗎\n\n15:24.793 --> 15:44.250\n所以我的意思是說對這當然是他私人的財產但他當他跟國軍連在一起的時候他MDN沒有解除你們會不知道嗎我問一下這個MDN他沒有解除這件事情你們不知道嗎一定沒有辦法解除我剛剛有講過他MDN一定要在專用的這個電腦上面才能移除所以你們在國軍退役的時候那你一併幫他移除那他私人手機就不移除了\n\n15:51.736 --> 16:18.180\n移除會移除對啊那你這樣講前後矛盾啊你不是說他的私人手機也會被移除嗎他被偷竊他還沒有退伍前就已經移屍了他不是在退伍後移屍的那你們就是沒有注意這個漏洞啊他如果手機掉了呢就沒有辦法移除MDN然後呢你們也沒有去追蹤那你不覺得這中間那我如果是一個中共的間諜我是專門去偷那些士兵的手機就好啦\n\n16:20.322 --> 16:47.041\n你們沒有發現這裡面有很嚴重的國安問題嗎我知道誰在當兵的我就趁他不注意的時候把他手機偷走這有很難嗎他平常時也要出來生活也會放假我只要掌握這些名單比方說剛才他的這些名單上面都是我們現在的國軍嘛還有長官的聯絡方式嘛那你可能說你的這個LINE群組裡面有一些人他可能是義務役可是長官的聯絡方式他是一定是志願役的啊\n\n16:47.521 --> 16:56.696\n那我知道他的名字之後那我就去找一找我看到他那手機在桌上我順手牽羊摸走之後那你們也沒有任何辦法可以管啊\n\n16:57.816 --> 17:22.043\n有沒有辦法追蹤啊有沒有辦法處理啊怎麼會這樣呢針對能夠移除後端移除的這個問題我們下期會研究看怎麼你們需要花多少時間研究啊這事情已經很久了因為我後來去查從你們MDM開始做起之後就有非常多的基層的士兵在抱怨相關的這個APP做得非常的爛然後呢也有很多的漏洞\n\n17:22.543 --> 17:43.436\n但是你們都沒有去注意我們基層軍人的聲音然後今天引發了這樣子的國安問題所以我想要請問你們需要多久的時間能夠去把這樣子的一個系統做升級做重新的管理然後避免這種所謂只要被偷竊了那你的MDM然後你的所有的資訊就都外洩出去了\n\n17:44.676 --> 18:01.242\n今天幸好他是一個EUE他是退伍的如果今天是志願役呢如果他是高層長官然後遺失了呢那會發生什麼事會發生什麼事如果是你們三位的手機突然不見了呢會發生什麼事你有沒有想過\n\n18:02.796 --> 18:29.765\n如果郭部長的手機被偷了呢?那怎麼辦?你們有辦法追蹤嗎?你有辦法解除他手機裡面的內容嗎?那我們不是所有國軍的重要的資訊都流出去了嗎?我們一般不會在私人的手機上面聊公務事情你怎麼知道?你怎麼知道?你剛剛都已經講是私人手機所以他要用私人手機做什麼?那是他的財產\n\n18:31.502 --> 18:32.987\n所以那只是你的假定而已\n\n18:34.142 --> 19:00.870\n委員剛剛指導的四個重點我們後續研究完精進的措施我們會到這個一定要精進研究因為是今天剛好他是EWE如果是在場的你們幾位的手機被偷竊的話然後後續的對我們國安影響是非常非常非常大的因為你們沒有追蹤的機會你們沒有辦法清空他的資訊然後你們認為那是他的私人財產所以你沒有辦法去動他\n\n19:01.912 --> 19:14.068\n所以今年幸好是一個小小的義務役如果今天是我們的志願役甚至是高層那不好意思我們的國安漏洞可大了所以請我們的國軍一定要重視這件事情儘速改善謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.229,"end":23.571,"text":"想請問一下那媒體報導的時候就最近有談到如果今天我們有台灣人他的身分證那他也同時有中國大陸的這個身分證中華人民共和國的身分證那義務役仍然是能夠可以當兵的是嗎"},{"start":39.96,"end":56.886,"text":"我是連議次長 按照那個兩岸關係條例九十一條裡面明定就是他具有中國身份的然後他有我們中華民國身份他在這個義務上面他還是要去盡到他應該盡的責任那有沒有打算要收政這一條"},{"start":57.779,"end":86.216,"text":"那是陸委會的兩岸關係條例對啊 有沒有打算跟陸委會來協調說要刪除這條你們覺得這樣子是正確的嗎因為義務役如果他有中華人民共和國的身份證能夠來當兵的話有沒有想過一種可能是我們中華民國國軍的組成裡面會有中國共產黨的黨員或者是被中共收買來發展組織的荒謬的現象發生有沒有可能"},{"start":86.823,"end":112.457,"text":"有可能 這個我們再跟陸委會那邊來做一個有可能嘛 前一陣子有一個網紅說台灣有20萬的人領有中共身分證雖然這個內政部查了之後也沒那麼多但假設他說的是真的好了 換算是1%也就是說呢 我們國軍裡面有潛藏1600萬的中共同路人那請問你們面對這樣子的一個說法你們覺得是正確的嗎"},{"start":115.475,"end":118.863,"text":"這個數據的部分我們沒有辦法去做一個說明說它是否正確"},{"start":119.83,"end":144.247,"text":"那你們有去檢查或核實嗎要如何查核目前我們現在已經按照陸委會的指導就是請全軍所有人不管志願役或者是義務役的都要去填寫他的他是否具有只要填寫就好了沒有辦法查然後只要是志願役的他如果沒有按照實際來去做填寫那後面如果查到他就會上司擔任公職"},{"start":144.987,"end":172.594,"text":"所以他要被查到嘛我們沒有辦法去做查核那他只有如果有人舉報被查到的話才有可能會去做後續的動作是那這樣子的話其實還是有很高的風險啊好那接下來呢為什麼我要討論這個就是大家今天最關心的就是腰塞管理的部分那這個阿兵哥的手機遺失流到中國大陸裡面呢這個訓練照看起來這個沒有什麼問題但是裡面有這個手機的長官的電話"},{"start":174.514,"end":201.416,"text":"那我想請問一下你們知不知道這個13拐的他不見的手機不見的時間是在什麼時候委員好我是陸軍事務部常務長我們從這個相關的訊息來了解這員無姓士兵他是在112年9月26號退伍那我們掌握到他的一些通聯的狀況大致"},{"start":205.258,"end":218.087,"text":"上面的訊息的時間大致是停留在112年的3月左右3月6號左右好那我們看一下下一張圖其實實際上面它上面有寫時間嗎這個是他手機在2021年7月28號上鎖管制的最後時間"},{"start":224.191,"end":245.294,"text":"對最後管制時間所以他是在更之後的時候手機才弄丟的嗎是的OK好那呢好再來我要問一下說現行的規定必須要登錄辦理這個管制標籤的註銷但沒有強制要求國軍人員一定要安裝能夠遠端刪除手機內容的軟體那反觀呢我們可以看一下美國"},{"start":246.195,"end":271.091,"text":"美國他們的做法呢 這邊就有寫嘛Consider installing security that offers remote location.We place this on the web等等的 就這句話他呢是有一個方式是如果你的手機遺失的話他有權去把你的這裡面的這些資料全部都清除那為什麼我們做了這個MDM但是我們卻沒有相關的做法"},{"start":273.753,"end":295.787,"text":"我們慣了MDN是禁止在營內裡面照相攝影然後熱點開放以及這個藍芽功能不能使用那如果要移除的話一定要專門的電腦裡面才能移除MDN這個裝置那剛剛在省委員在執行的時候也在講到這一點民用手機是不是可以安裝這個軟體我們這個下去我們會研究如果行的話我們會來"},{"start":296.087,"end":323.971,"text":"再來你們這個MDM已經被非常多的國軍所詬病就說你們怎麼會做出這種十年前的產物比方說你們在Android的手機跟在iPhone的手機裡面灌了這個MDM之後當它退伍的時候要把它的MDM取消的時候結果完全不一樣如果是Android的話它資料可以被留下來如果是iPhone的話它資料會全部被清除你們知道這件事嗎"},{"start":324.491,"end":348.675,"text":"知道那為什麼會要這樣子因為這個是我們也是偽中科院來執行這個設計MDM那中科院是不是沒做好我用iPhone的手機跟我用Android手機我都是帶手機進去的我們都換了MDM了那為什麼用Android手機它可以留下它的備份紀錄那iPhone卻要全部消除"},{"start":349.515,"end":377.149,"text":"跟委員報告我是中科院副院長那iOS的手機它基本上iOS是一個封閉的系統那Android的系統它是一個開放式架構所以開放式架構對我們在做設計包含了安裝移除或者是monitor這些對開放式架構它有一定的程序所以我們比較能夠可以掌握但是iOS的話它的所有的安裝的軟體要經過這個Apple手機Apple公司的一些認證所以可能在這個上面確實是有一些困難"},{"start":377.449,"end":400.658,"text":"好那我在講你會發現有很多的這個軍人朋友都告訴你有什麼樣方式可以逃脫比方說如果你在軍營之前你在入營之前就先灌好這個LINE或者是其他軟體的話然後你再繼續灌MDN的話它原本灌的東西就也不會被刪掉"},{"start":401.522,"end":423.729,"text":"所以這可能才是導致為什麼他的這個為什麼他有這麼多的LINE我們看一下那個圖片你可以看到他的LINE裡面呢如果是剛剛那兩張照片的話我並不是很在意喔可是他的LINE裡面包含是我們跟這個比如說度蜜月一三七啊早餐的稍微便當已經放在桌上啊"},{"start":424.809,"end":440.7,"text":"連長福當昭好啊我們到了衛訓中心報到啊然後呢這個兵器組的誰誰誰誰誰他基本上把我們很多的士兵的名字都放在上面以及我們的長官的聯絡電話全部都放在上面這有沒有很明顯的國安問題"},{"start":442.605,"end":461.216,"text":"向委員報告這些資料我們去做過審認它是你如何審認的我們就目前可以看得到的資料你從哪裡看的就是網路上公開網路上而已那網路上對啊手機不在你手上嘛那網路上它只公佈一小部分而已啊"},{"start":462.496,"end":490.567,"text":"這個大陸的這個網友他只貼了兩三張圖而已我跟委員報告一下我們清查了一下這位士兵他在四年的服役務役的期間他所擔任的職務都是所謂沒有揭秘的他就是比較基層的一般專長的士兵基層的一般專長士兵但他的聯絡的方式裡面卻填寫了我們非常多的長官的聯絡電話他就是一般在行政工作上的回報並沒有涉及到好我們看下一張好不好是"},{"start":492.133,"end":520.848,"text":"其實你可以看到呢這個是另外一張最新的這個機組是國軍他手機被偷了資料完全沒有清國軍一三旅這個的電話裡面有他的後勤跟上級的這個相關的對話然後呢裡面呢他也有很多他自己寫的備忘錄就包含他在當兵的時候一些心得然後呢他的這個整個過程然後呢後面呢他裡面也寫說這是班級群"},{"start":521.428,"end":538.288,"text":"所以我想要問一下如果說這些名單裡面都外露了那這個中共他這裡他可以掌握我們的國軍的這個名冊名單還有長官的聯絡電話之後那是不是他在發展組織或是刺探情報上面他有更簡單的方式能夠來做"},{"start":539.725,"end":566.675,"text":"跟委員報告基本上在這方面的確是有一個我們需要檢討精進的部分也就是說他的手機在報遺失或是更換的時候事實上他這個群組我們也律定了相關的管理規範單位是沒有去落實把他做這個退群的動作如果他退出這個群組這相關的資訊是不應該顯示的那其實我們也從這個案例上面去就我們的規定跟執行"},{"start":567.555,"end":581.926,"text":"是否有落實我們也要持續的去做要求向委員說明那再來呢我要再講一個齁這個也是我們的軍人說的他說呢如果你在入營之前你就要想好你要用什麼LINE帳號"},{"start":582.606,"end":610.655,"text":"想好之後呢在一開始或第一次售價的時候帶回營區灌MDM所以呢因為第一週你要帶什麼呢頂多只是被保管而已班長也沒空把你怎麼樣所以呢如果你在第一週的時候你就把你的LINE手機準備好的話那之後呢你就不需要再另外加群組也不需要另外一支手機那在灌MDM的時候其實它就有一個漏洞你們知道這件事情嗎"},{"start":613.663,"end":629.254,"text":"不知道不知道這個非常清楚在網路上面都可以查得到很多人在教學要怎麼樣同時讓你的Line跟你的這個MDM在一起他最簡單的方式就是他先灌了我們的軟體之後然後呢他再去加MDM"},{"start":629.656,"end":651.583,"text":"因為私人的LINE跟MDN是兩件事情它不會有任何的衝突也不會有影響我們剛剛講過灌MDN這件事情是禁止我們官兵在營內使用照相攝影熱點分享以及這個藍芽功能是限制他們這些功能不能使用它之前灌了LINE的群組它還是LINE那個是沒有不相衝突的"},{"start":652.623,"end":680.682,"text":"所以呢他裡面就講說呢你基本上呢你可以先把要就是因為他認為說呢你如果之後再加群組或放假回報沒有LINE的話會很麻煩那你灌MDN的時候Android帶傳輸線跟登出裡面的帳號基本上呢都可以重正常灌不用重設甚至Android版本的MDN還可以自己自動上鎖跟檢索所以呢比起要監管的Apple的這個安裝時間比較快"},{"start":682.083,"end":698.386,"text":"那我最後我要講的意思就是說你們在MDM的這個設計上面雖然剛剛講說可以隱藏一些資訊但是有幾個缺失第一個缺失就是其實在網路上已經有很多人他們嘗試去破解這個東西而且是成功的"},{"start":699.006,"end":723.764,"text":"第二件事情呢就是你們在同樣是手機裡面在Android的跟在Apple裡面他們最後處理掉的方法是完全不一樣這對很多人來說是並不公平的一件事情第三件事情呢是在這個手機它遺失之後我們卻沒有任何的能力去追蹤它的手機在哪裡然後並且把它清除簡單來說如果你用Apple或是用Android的話"},{"start":724.665,"end":741.204,"text":"實際上面呢你是可以在他報案之後第一時間就可以去追蹤他的手機的位置定位點的但是呢我們的國軍卻沒有這麼做所以才發生這次的這個所謂的二手機的事件所以我想問一下這四件事情到底是哪裡至愛難行導致於這樣子的情況發生"},{"start":744.841,"end":762.162,"text":"你們有沒有打算重新去檢討你們MDM是一個很過時然後被很多的基層軍人認為是很沒有用很沒有意義而且很容易破解然後呢這個也很不先進的一個東西你們有沒有考慮要重新去檢討整個機制"},{"start":763.463,"end":783.179,"text":"這個我們可以下去之後再考慮一下因為事實上中科院的MDN它的版本是一直都有在更新的那更新的還是很爛啊我剛剛講的就是2025年的時候的士兵他們所說的東西啊還不夠新嗎2025年的時候年初的時候大家還在討論這件事情啊在這個事件爆發之前大家就在討論這件事啦"},{"start":784.69,"end":807.81,"text":"那我們下去再研究看是不是有更好的方式可以功能性要設置限制他們不能使用然後但是有更好的軟體可以我講一個最簡單的如果我今天我的手機遺失的時候其實它上面都有那個追蹤碼那每一支手機它的型號上它都有追蹤碼坦白說透過我們的相關系統裡面是可以追蹤那個手機現在在哪裡的"},{"start":808.49,"end":817.475,"text":"那如果當下他報案之後我們立即去追的話他還會被賣到大陸去嗎他在台灣可能就被找到啦那為什麼沒有做這件事情呢"},{"start":818.775,"end":839.341,"text":"這是現行的這是現行的我們的制度就可以做到的東西啊我們現行的科技就可以完成的東西啊為什麼我們要等到這個手機被賣到流浪到大陸之後然後呢被打開了然後裡面有很多人的電話然後呢裡面有很多他個人的隱私資料之後我們才回頭來今天要討論這件事情"},{"start":839.821,"end":861.726,"text":"因為手機是屬於個人的產品個人的自己的私人的物品但他都報案啦他都報案的意思是說跟你們報案的意思是說報案應該是由內政部來調查不是由警政單位不屬於報案他報案之後這是一個國軍使用的手機嘛所以他的意義不同嘛他是個人的手機他不是國軍他是私人手機對他是私人的手機沒錯但他是以他是報案的時候他有沒有講他是國軍的身份沒有"},{"start":862.813,"end":869.592,"text":"就你們了解沒有講是國軍的身份嗎他沒有告訴你們是國軍的身份就直接只是報師而已那為什麼要報師"},{"start":871.414,"end":899.7,"text":"一般人的手機不見就算啦他是被偷竊他被偷竊那被偷竊之後你們沒有一個準則說國軍的手機被偷竊之後的SOP要怎麼處理沒有去做教育我們公用的公務手機的話我們有這樣的管制規定那但是私人的手機我們就沒有這樣的綠定說要怎麼來執行因為這是他私人的財產那他東西掉了是讓他報案可是你們裡面都灌了MDM啦代表說這個手機跟你們的國軍這裡是有一定的聯繫程度的啊"},{"start":900.57,"end":923.592,"text":"關於那個功能是限制他在營區不能做這個我知道但是問題是你這東西他裡面還有很多LINE跟他的群組裡面就已經有很多相關跟國軍相關的資料還有呢可能有各種的電話號碼跟他自己在國軍裡面你知道嗎他有一個記事本裡面就寫著他在國軍裡面各式各樣發生的事情其實東西全部都流到中國大陸去沒有國安的問題嗎"},{"start":924.793,"end":944.25,"text":"所以我的意思是說對這當然是他私人的財產但他當他跟國軍連在一起的時候他MDN沒有解除你們會不知道嗎我問一下這個MDN他沒有解除這件事情你們不知道嗎一定沒有辦法解除我剛剛有講過他MDN一定要在專用的這個電腦上面才能移除所以你們在國軍退役的時候那你一併幫他移除那他私人手機就不移除了"},{"start":951.736,"end":978.18,"text":"移除 會移除對啊 那你這樣講前後矛盾啊你不是說他的私人手機也會被移除嗎他被偷竊 他還沒有退伍前就已經移屍了他不是在退伍後移屍的那你們就是沒有注意這個漏洞啊他如果手機掉了呢就沒有辦法移除MDN然後呢 你們也沒有去追蹤那你不覺得這中間那我如果是一個中共的間諜我是專門去偷那些士兵的手機就好啦"},{"start":980.322,"end":1007.041,"text":"你們沒有發現這裡面有很嚴重的國安問題嗎我知道誰在當兵的我就趁他不注意的時候把他手機偷走這有很難嗎他平常時也要出來生活也會放假我只要掌握這些名單比方說剛才他的這些名單上面都是我們現在的國軍嘛還有長官的聯絡方式嘛那你可能說你的這個LINE群組裡面有一些人他可能是義務役可是長官的聯絡方式他是一定是志願役的啊"},{"start":1007.521,"end":1016.696,"text":"那我知道他的名字之後那我就去找一找我看到他那手機在桌上我順手牽羊摸走之後那你們也沒有任何辦法可以管啊"},{"start":1017.816,"end":1042.043,"text":"有沒有辦法追蹤啊有沒有辦法處理啊怎麼會這樣呢針對能夠移除後端移除的這個問題我們下期會研究看怎麼你們需要花多少時間研究啊這事情已經很久了因為我後來去查從你們MDM開始做起之後就有非常多的基層的士兵在抱怨相關的這個APP做得非常的爛然後呢也有很多的漏洞"},{"start":1042.543,"end":1063.436,"text":"但是你們都沒有去注意我們基層軍人的聲音然後今天引發了這樣子的國安問題所以我想要請問你們需要多久的時間能夠去把這樣子的一個系統做升級做重新的管理然後避免這種所謂只要被偷竊了那你的MDM然後你的所有的資訊就都外洩出去了"},{"start":1064.676,"end":1081.242,"text":"今天幸好他是一個EUE他是退伍的如果今天是志願役呢如果他是高層長官然後遺失了呢那會發生什麼事會發生什麼事如果是你們三位的手機突然不見了呢會發生什麼事你有沒有想過"},{"start":1082.796,"end":1109.765,"text":"如果郭部長的手機被偷了呢?那怎麼辦?你們有辦法追蹤嗎?你有辦法解除他手機裡面的內容嗎?那我們不是所有國軍的重要的資訊都流出去了嗎?我們一般不會在私人的手機上面聊公務事情你怎麼知道?你怎麼知道?你剛剛都已經講是私人手機所以他要用私人手機做什麼?那是他的財產"},{"start":1111.502,"end":1112.987,"text":"所以那只是你的假定而已"},{"start":1114.142,"end":1140.87,"text":"委員剛剛指導的四個重點我們後續研究完精進的措施我們會到這個一定要精進研究因為是今天剛好他是EWE如果是在場的你們幾位的手機被偷竊的話然後後續的對我們國安影響是非常非常非常大的因為你們沒有追蹤的機會你們沒有辦法清空他的資訊然後你們認為那是他的私人財產所以你沒有辦法去動他"},{"start":1141.912,"end":1154.068,"text":"所以今年幸好是一個小小的義務役如果今天是我們的志願役甚至是高層那不好意思我們的國安漏洞可大了所以請我們的國軍一定要重視這件事情儘速改善謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":365,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時39分）我想請問一下，媒體報導在最近有談到，如果今天有臺灣人除了有這裡的身分證，還同時有中華人民共和國的身分證，那可以服義務役、仍然能夠當兵，是嗎？"],["劉次長沛智：委員好，我是聯一次長。在兩岸人民關係條例第九條之一有明定，就是他具有中國身分，然後他有我們中華民國身分，他在這個義務上面還是要去盡到他應該盡的責任。"],["徐委員巧芯：那有沒有打算要修正這一條？"],["劉次長沛智：那是陸委會主管的兩岸人民關係條例。"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！你們有沒有打算跟陸委會來協調要刪除這一條？"],["劉次長沛智：我們再跟陸委會溝通。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們覺得這樣子是正確的嗎？對於義務役，如果他有中華人民共和國的身分證卻還是能夠來當兵的話，你們有沒有想過會有一種可能，就是在我們中華民國國軍的組成裡面會有中國共產黨的黨員，或者是被中共收買來發展組織的這種荒謬的現象發生？有沒有可能？"],["劉次長沛智：有可能，這個我們再跟陸委會那邊來溝通。"],["徐委員巧芯：有可能嘛！"],["劉次長沛智：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：前一陣子有一個網紅說臺灣有20萬人領有中共身分證，雖然內政部查了之後說也沒那麼多，但假設他說的是真的，換算後是1%，也就是說，在我們的國軍裡面有潛藏1,600位中共同路人，請問你們面對這樣的說法，你們覺得是正確的嗎？"],["劉次長沛智：對這個數據的部分我們沒有辦法去做一個說明說它是否正確。"],["徐委員巧芯：那你們有去檢查或核實嗎？要如何查核？"],["劉次長沛智：目前我們已經按照陸委會的指導請全軍所有的人，不管是志願役或義務役，都要去填寫他是否具有……"],["徐委員巧芯：只要填寫就好了，沒有辦法查核？"],["劉次長沛智：是，然後只要是志願役，他如果沒有照實填寫，在之後如果查到，他就會喪失擔任公職、軍職的機會。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以他要被查到嘛！我們沒有辦法去做查核。"],["劉次長沛智：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以如果有人舉報而被查到的話，才有可能會去做後續的動作。"],["劉次長沛智：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：如果是這樣的話，其實還是有很高的風險啊！為什麼我要討論這個問題？因為這是大家今天最關心的，也就是137旅的部分，有阿兵哥的手機遺失流到中國大陸，裡面的這個訓練照看起來沒有什麼問題，但是裡面有長官的電話號碼。我想請問一下，你們知不知道這個137旅的阿兵哥手機不見的時間是在什麼時候？"],["陳參謀長建義：委員好，我是陸軍司令部參謀長，我們從相關的訊息了解到，這員吳姓士兵是在112年9月26號退伍，那我們有掌握到他的一些通聯狀況，上面訊息的時間大致是停留在112年的3月6號左右。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那我們看下一張圖，其實這上面有寫時間嘛！"],["陳參謀長建義：這個是他手機在2021年7月28號上鎖管制的最後時間。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，最後管制時間，所以他的手機是在更之後的時候才弄丟的嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：是的。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK。再來，我要問一下，依現行規定必須要登錄來辦理管制標籤的註銷，但沒有強制要求國軍人員一定要安裝能夠遠端刪除手機內容的軟體，反觀美國他們的作法，這邊就有寫：「Consider installing security that offers remote location wiping that can……」，就是這句話，他們有一個方式，如果你的手機遺失的話，你有權去把你手機裡面的這些資料全部都清除，那為什麼我們做了這個MDM，但是我們卻沒有相關的作法？"],["鄧次長恩憐：委員好，我是通次室次長，我們所灌的MDM是禁止在營內裡面照相、攝影、熱點開放，以及藍芽功能不能使用，那如果要移除的話，一定要在專門的電腦裡面才能移除MDM的這個裝置。剛剛沈委員在質詢的時候也有講到這一點，就是民用手機是不是可以安裝這個軟體，我們回去以後會研究，如果行的話，我們會來執行。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，再來，你們這個MDM已經被非常多的國軍所詬病，質疑你們怎麼會做出這種10年前的產物。比方在Android的手機跟在iPhone的手機裡面灌了這個MDM之後，當他退伍要把MDM取消的時候，結果完全不一樣，如果是Android的話，資料可以被留下來；如果是iPhone的話，資料會全部被清除，你們知道這件事嗎？"],["鄧次長恩憐：知道。"],["徐委員巧芯：那為什麼要這樣子？"],["鄧次長恩憐：因為這個也是我們委中科院來執行設計MDM的……"],["徐委員巧芯：中科院是不是沒做好？我用iPhone的手機跟我用Android的手機，我都是帶手機進去的，我們都換了MDM了，為什麼用Android手機可以留下他的備份紀錄，iPhone的手機卻要全部消除？"],["程副院長一誠：跟委員報告，我是中科院副院長。以iOS的手機來講，基本上iOS是一個封閉的系統，Android的系統是一個開放式架構，而開放式架構對我們在做設計、安裝、移除或者是monitor這些有一定的程序，所以我們比較能夠可以掌握；但是iOS的話，它所有安裝的軟體要經過Apple公司的認證，所以可能在這個上面確實是有一些困難。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。我再講，你會發現有很多的軍人朋友都告訴你有什麼樣的方式可以逃脫，比方如果你在入營之前就先灌好LINE或是其他軟體，然後再進去灌MDM的話，你原本灌的東西也不會被刪掉，所以這可能才是導致為什麼他有這麼多的LINE。我們看一下圖片，你可以看到，他的LINE裡面，如果是剛剛那兩張照片的話，我並不是很在意，可是他的LINE裡面包含跟比如「度蜜月137」的對話提到：早餐的上尉便當已經放到桌上，或是連長、輔導長好，我們到了衛訓中心報到，然後兵器組的誰、誰、誰。他基本上把我們很多士兵的名字都放在上面，以及長官的聯絡電話全部都放在上面，這有沒有很明顯的國安問題？"],["陳參謀長建義：向委員報告，這些資料我們做過審認，他是沒有……"],["徐委員巧芯：你如何審認的？"],["陳參謀長建義：我們就目前可以看得到的資料來審認。"],["徐委員巧芯：你從哪裡看的？"],["陳參謀長建義：就是網路上公開的，因為這個手機不在我們手上。"],["徐委員巧芯：網路上而已？網路上……對呀，手機不在你手上，網路上只公布一小部分而已呀。這個大陸的網友他只貼了兩、三張圖而已。"],["陳參謀長建義：我跟委員報告一下，我們清查了一下這位士兵，他在4年服義務役的期間所擔任的職務都是所謂沒有接密的，他就是比較基層的一般專長的士兵。"],["徐委員巧芯：雖然是基層的一般專長的士兵，但他的聯絡方式裡面卻填寫了非常多長官的聯絡電話，您知道這件事情嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：他就是一般在行政工作上的回報，並沒有涉及到機密。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我們看下一張，好不好？其實你可以看到，這個是另外一張最新的，這個機主是國軍，他的手機被偷了，資料完全沒有清，國軍13旅的電話裡面有他的後勤跟上級的相關對話，裡面也有很多他自己寫的備忘錄，就是包含他在當兵的時候一些心得、整個過程，後面他也寫到這是班級群。所以我想要問一下，如果這些名單都外漏了，中共可以掌握我們國軍的名冊、名單、還有長官的聯絡電話之後，是不是在發展組織或是刺探情報上面，它有更簡單的方式能夠來做？"],["陳參謀長建義：跟委員報告，基本上在這方面的確是有一個我們需要檢討、精進的部分，也就是說，他的手機在報遺失或者更換的時候，事實上針對他這個群組，我們也律定了相關的管理規範，單位是沒有去落實，把他做退群的動作，如果他退出這個群組，相關的資訊是不應該顯示的。其實我們也從這個案例上面就我們的規定跟執行是否有落實，我們也要持續地去做要求，向委員說明。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，再來，我要再講一個，這個也是我們的軍人說的。他說在入營之前就要想好要用什麼LINE帳號，想好之後在一開始或第一次收假的時候帶回營區灌MDM，因為是第一週，不管帶了什麼，頂多只是被保管而已，班長也沒空把你怎麼樣，所以如果在第一週的時候就把LINE手機準備好的話，之後就不需要再另外加群組，也不需要另外一支手機，在灌MDM的時候其實就有一個漏洞，你們知道這件事情嗎？"],["鄧次長恩憐：不知道。"],["徐委員巧芯：不知道？"],["鄧次長恩憐：嗯。"],["徐委員巧芯：這個非常清楚，在網路上面都可以查得到，很多人在教學，教國軍要怎麼樣同時讓LINE跟MDM在一起，最簡單的方式就是先灌了我們的軟體之後再去加MDM。"],["鄧次長恩憐：私人的LINE跟MDM是兩件事情，不會有任何的衝突，也不會有影響。我們剛剛講過，灌MDM這件事情是禁止我們的官兵在營內使用照相、攝影、熱點分享及藍芽功能，是限制他們這些功能不能使用，跟他之前灌的LINE群組是不相衝突的。"],["徐委員巧芯：他裡面就講說，基本上你可以先把要……因為他認為如果之後再加群組或放假回報沒有LINE的話會很麻煩，灌MDM的時候，Android手機的話，只要帶傳輸線跟登出裡面的帳號，基本上都可以正常灌，不用重設，甚至Android版本的MDM還可以自己自動上鎖跟解鎖，所以比起要監管的Apple手機，安裝的時間比較快。","最後我要講的意思是，你們在MDM的設計上面，雖然剛剛講可以隱藏一些資訊，但是有幾個缺失：第一個缺失就是其實在網路上已經有很多人嘗試去破解這個東西，而且是成功的；第二件事情就是同樣是手機，在Android跟在Apple裡面，他們最後處理掉的方法是完全不一樣的，這對很多人來說是並不公平的事情；第三件事情是，在手機遺失之後，我們卻沒有任何能力去追蹤他的手機在哪裡，並且把它清除。簡單來說，如果用Apple或是用Android的話，實際上你是可以在他報案之後第一時間就去追蹤他手機的位置、定位點的，但是我們的國軍卻沒有這麼做，所以才發生這次二手機的事件。我想問一下，這4件事情到底是哪裡窒礙難行，導致這樣的情況發生？你們有沒有打算重新去檢討你們的MDM是一個很過時，被很多的基層軍人認為是很沒有用、沒有意義，而且很容易破解，也很不先進的東西？你們有沒有考慮要重新去檢討整個機制？"],["鄧次長恩憐：我們下去之後再考慮一下，事實上中科院的MDM版本是一直都有在更新的，我們……"],["徐委員巧芯：但更新了還是很爛，我剛剛講的就是2025年的時候士兵所說的東西，還不夠新嗎？2025年年初的時候大家還在討論這件事情，在這個事件爆發之前大家都就在討論這件事了。"],["鄧次長恩憐：我們下去再研究看看是不是有更好的方式可以……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，我想……"],["鄧次長恩憐：功能性要限制他們不能使用，但是有更好的軟體可以……"],["徐委員巧芯：我講一個最簡單的，如果今天我的手機遺失的時候，其實它上面都有追蹤碼，每支手機的型號都有追蹤碼，坦白說，透過我們相關的系統是可以追蹤那個手機現在在哪裡的，如果當下他報案之後，我們立即去追的話，它還會被賣到大陸去嗎？它在臺灣可能就被找到了，為什麼我們沒有做這件事情呢？"],["鄧次長恩憐：因為……"],["徐委員巧芯：這是現行我們的制度就可以做到的東西、現行的科技就可以完成的東西，為什麼我們要等到手機被賣到、流浪到大陸之後被打開了，裡面有很多人的電話、很多個人的隱私資料洩漏之後，我們今天才回頭來討論這件事情？"],["鄧次長恩憐：因為手機是屬於個人的財產、個人自己私人的物品……"],["徐委員巧芯：但他都報案了，他都報案的意思是說，跟你們報案的意思是說……"],["鄧次長恩憐：報案應該是由內政部來調查，由警政單位，不屬於國防部……"],["徐委員巧芯：他報案之後，這是一個國軍使用的手機，所以它的意義不同嘛。"],["鄧次長恩憐：它是個人的手機，不是國軍……它是私人手機。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，它是私人的手機沒錯，但他報案的時候有沒有講他是國軍的身分？沒有？就你們瞭解，沒有講是國軍的身分嗎？他沒有告訴你們是國軍的身分，就直接只是報失而已，那為什麼要報失？一般人的手機不見就算了。"],["陳參謀長建義：他是被偷竊。"],["徐委員巧芯：他被偷竊？被偷竊之後，你們沒有一個準則規定國軍的手機被偷竊之後的SOP要怎麼處理？沒有去做教育？"],["鄧次長恩憐：我們公用的公務手機的話，我們有這樣的管制規定，但是對私人的手機，我們就沒有律定要怎麼來執行，因為這是他私人的財產，他的東西掉了，事實上他報案……"],["徐委員巧芯：可是裡面都灌了MDM了，代表這個手機跟你們國軍是有一定的聯繫程度的。"],["鄧次長恩憐：灌MDM的功能是限制他在營區不能做這些事情……"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道，但問題是這個東西裡面，還有很多LINE跟他的群組裡面就已經有很多跟國軍相關的資料，還有可能有各種電話號碼跟他自己在國軍裡面……你知道嗎？他有一個記事本，裡面就寫著他在國軍裡面各式各樣發生的事情，這些東西全部都流到中國大陸去，沒有國安的問題嗎？所以我的意思是，對！這當然是他私人的財產，但當他跟國軍連在一起的時候，他MDM沒有解除，你們會不知道嗎？我問一下，MDM沒有解除這件事情，你們不知道嗎？"],["鄧次長恩憐：一定沒有辦法解除，我剛剛有講過，他MDM一定要在專用的電腦上面才能移除，就是我們退伍前……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你們在國軍退役的時候……"],["鄧次長恩憐：會幫他移除。"],["徐委員巧芯：你一併幫他移除，那他私人的手機就不移除了？"],["鄧次長恩憐：會移除。"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！那你這樣講不就前後矛盾，你不是說他的私人手機也會被移除嗎？"],["鄧次長恩憐：他是被偷竊，他還沒有退伍前就已經遺失了，他不是在退伍後遺失的。"],["徐委員巧芯：那你們就是沒有注意這個漏洞啊！他如果手機掉了就沒有辦法移除MDM，然後你們也沒有去追蹤，你不覺得這中間……我如果是一個中共的間諜，我就專門去偷那些士兵的手機就好了，你沒有發現這裡面有很嚴重的國安問題嗎？如果我知道誰在當兵，我就趁他不注意的時候把他手機偷走，這有很難嗎？他平常也要出來生活，也會放假，我只要掌握這些名單，比方說，剛才他的這些名單上面都是我們現在的國軍，還有長官的聯絡方式，你可能說他的LINE群組裡面有一些人可能是義務役，可是還有長官的聯絡方式，長官一定是志願役，我知道他的名字之後，我就去找一找，我看到他的手機在桌上，我順手牽羊摸走之後，你們也沒有任何辦法可以管，也沒有辦法追蹤，也沒有辦法處理，怎麼會這樣呢？"],["鄧次長恩憐：針對能夠後端移除的問題，我們下去會研究看要怎麼處理。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們需要花多少時間研究？這個事情已經很久了，因為我後來去查，從你們MDM開始做起之後，就有非常多基層士兵在抱怨相關的app做得非常爛，也有很多的漏洞，但是你們都沒有去注意基層軍人的聲音，然後今天引發了這樣的國安問題。所以我想要請問，你們需要多久的時間能夠去把這樣的系統做升級、做重新的管理，來避免這種所謂只要被偷竊了，你的MDM、你所有的資訊就都外洩出去了？今天幸好他是一個義務役、他是退伍的，如果今天是志願役呢？如果他是高層長官，然後遺失了呢？那會發生什麼事？如果是你們三位的手機突然不見了，那會發生什麼事？你有沒有想過？如果顧部長的手機被偷了，那怎麼辦？你們有辦法追蹤嗎？你有辦法解除他手機裡面的內容嗎？那不是我們所有國軍的重要資訊都流出去了嗎？"],["鄧次長恩憐：我們一般不會在私人的手機上面聊公務事情，這也是被限制……"],["徐委員巧芯：你怎麼知道？"],["鄧次長恩憐：因為我們有明文規定……"],["徐委員巧芯：你剛剛都已經講那是私人手機，所以他要用私人手機做什麼，那是他的財產，所以那只是你的假定而已。"],["鍾副部長樹明：委員剛剛指導的四個重點，我們後續研究完精進措施之後，會到委員辦公室做說明。"],["徐委員巧芯：這個一定要精進研究，是因為今天剛好他是義務役，如果是在場你們幾位的手機被偷竊的話，後續對我們國安的影響是非常、非常、非常大的，因為你們沒有追蹤的機會，你們沒有辦法清空他的資訊，然後你們認為那是他的私人財產，所以你沒有辦法去動他，所以今天幸好是一個小小的義務役，如果今天是我們的志願役，甚至是高層，不好意思，我們的國安漏洞可大了！所以請我們的國軍一定要重視這件事情，儘速改善，謝謝。"],["鍾副部長樹明：是，謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員的發言。請國防部針對未及答復委員的部分以書面回復，好不好？"],["鍾副部長樹明：是。"],["主席：宣告現在休息5分鐘，5分鐘之後繼續詢答。","休息（10時59分）","繼續開會（11時4分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","請黃國昌委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-2","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳冠廷","林楚茵","陳永康","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","徐巧芯","黃國昌","邱志偉","林憶君","王定宇","羅智強"],"page_start":83,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告「國機國造交機進度及勇鷹高教機失事後檢修情況」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00002"}}}