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00:01:32,652\n矯正署的人員啊他們應該去比照辦理我也希望說你們可以向行政院來做一個爭取本期現在所知道的是說好像行政院跟你們講說性質不同我不曉得這個部分次長你的看法那事實上本部也是完全贊成我們的矯正人員他要比照相關的警消有深夜的圍牢加急事實上本部的函文也向行政院爭取\n\n5\n00:01:33,212 --> 00:02:00,789\n當然行政院後來有一些意見那退回來之後本部也在今年的一月啊又再補充相關的補充理由希望行政院能夠再考量我們的矯正人員他的確他的危險跟警消他的深夜要比較相同的辦理這是本部一貫的立場所以這個部分我應該繼續向行政院來做一個爭取啦對這個才合理啦我就不曉得說你光講一個說性質不同不同在什麼地方我想署長你也很清楚吧\n\n6\n00:02:02,152 --> 00:02:24,968\n你們那些檢索人員暗示啊大家在那裡很大的危險性啊報告委員我們去年的9月有報政院來爭取那我們人行政院的意思是說所謂的深夜勤的100元的那個加班增加是\n\n7\n00:02:25,748 --> 00:02:39,675\n比如說警察的離開住在這派出所住在地的巡邏或是警消的救災或是像那個移民署他有查緝抓捕那我們監守\n\n8\n00:02:40,836 --> 00:03:07,933\n可能在性質上可能在爭他是請我們再斟酌一下然後再補充說明啦所以我們剛剛次長有提到我們一夜份也有在報行政院來爭取因為我們監所也有移監、借戶外衣這一些外面的勤務這也是離開為獎的那夜間深夜也是風險性比較大\n\n9\n00:03:08,493 --> 00:03:31,379\n所以市長這個繼續爭取啦好不好我是覺得這個應該值得支持啦另外喔另外本席倒想針對在立法院裡面這一次針對法務部尤其是繳證書這個預算的凍結的部分來救教本席一直在講對於司法院或者對法務部這個預算的一個審查\n\n10\n00:03:32,723 --> 00:03:58,954\n監督當然要監督國會本來就是要監督但問題是預算不管是刪減或者凍結要特別謹慎我想是不是請矯正署來具體做一個說明我們現在針對於我們譬如說少年矯正廚藝的方面哪一些措施會受到這一次的一個預算的一個刪除或者凍結受到影響\n\n11\n00:04:02,289 --> 00:04:14,219\n報告委員這個預算的刪減當然對於紹角校的所謂的新設的資源會受到很大的影響那包括我們矯正來講\n\n12\n00:04:17,521 --> 00:04:27,025\n所謂的性侵家暴或是毒品酒飲這些都會有被受影響整體來講我現在問你的是你現在凍結一頁你對你的影響會有多大我為什麼會提出這個問題\n\n13\n00:04:35,149 --> 00:04:54,617\n我們矯正機關對於我們的收容人含這一些矯正學校的學生你在實施不管是心理或者社工專業廚藝跟依法辦理的治療性的一些廚藝比如說你的毒品性侵犯家暴這一些你總體的經費裡面你現在矯正署你被凍結的是一億你除了去影響到你整個矯正教育還有整個輔導廚藝的資源以外你這一些各項的一個業務的執行\n\n14\n00:05:05,663 --> 00:05:10,547\n你說不會去影響我擔心的是什麼我擔心的是譬如說我們現在\n\n15\n00:05:13,340 --> 00:05:41,562\n訂了一個法院判決一個執行刑以後我們還有一些保安處分你涉及到保安處分的我說在野黨這一次的一個凍結這個預算我是覺得非常不合理的地方是應該要受到譴責的地方我也希望說我們召委吳宗憲因為是法律人出身的要特別去注意到這個問題我們最擔心的是什麼像譬如說我律師的職業生涯裡面我最擔心的是那種刑期\n\n16\n00:05:44,533 --> 00:06:05,191\n看不到他自己要被關幾年我一直在舉例我自己在屏東我的選區裡面猥褻案件關於判案比較不適當執行下來多久快20年我都覺得這個都違反整個刑期的一個明確性\n\n17\n00:06:06,328 --> 00:06:14,054\n然後呢因為你繳制到最後你應該沒有通過嘛你說一個保安處分嘛那沒辦法一年一屆你現在五年過三年過一年每年來做評鑑評鑑都不會過這個一個強制猥褻案件到最後你真正的執行期都比一個殺人犯還要長\n\n18\n00:06:28,823 --> 00:06:55,002\n這個有時候我會覺得都非常荒謬所以你把這個預算給砍掉把它給凍結掉了我都很擔心啦台灣社會現在啊大家都希望說這一些罪犯抓去關關完以後這個社會眼不見為淨全部都是你矯正所的事都你矯正所的事人的犯罪之後檢察官就起訴法案就判刑判刑人送到監獄裡面去喔這個社會都看不見了喔好安全是這樣子喔\n\n19\n00:06:57,386 --> 00:07:11,574\n只要他不是被剝奪他的生命不是被判處死刑或者是終身監禁的總是你整個矯正教育送到監獄裡面就是要讓他再回歸社會嘛不然我們花這麼多錢我們給矯正署這麼多錢蓋這麼多監獄要幹什麼那這筆預算凍結了以後我最擔心的啦我最擔心的就是這些啦所以我怕到你們這個衝擊你像譬如說你\n\n20\n00:07:24,172 --> 00:07:42,600\n你判了七年我不喜歡舉這種性侵案件啦因為性侵案件大家都討厭可是呢如果說你判了七年你到了三年半他本身就可以服刑一半就可以假釋那你到了前兩年半的時候你就必須要去做評鑑\n\n21\n00:07:44,031 --> 00:07:57,369\n去做評鑑那你把這一些錢把它給凍結以後去影響到你們本來要作接保安處分的一些處遇的那你們說全部都你們都不會叫我都覺得很奇怪假設我看你們這次都沒有求救欸\n\n22\n00:08:01,258 --> 00:08:12,341\n報告委員我們114年度首席整體所謂的相關處役是2.6億被刪減1億的話除了剛剛我報告的這些輔導處役會受影響之外包括我們機關的設施機構的維護還有我們的人員訓練以及醫療各項業務都會受到執行上面的重大影響\n\n23\n00:08:29,386 --> 00:08:47,839\n你們講的是重大影響我看到的是法律層面我看到的是變成你一個保安處分出來以後本來你執行完以後還有一個保安處分那你這些保安處分你沒有辦法達到原來的一個效果會變成什麼\n\n24\n00:08:50,558 --> 00:09:10,936\n多增加了一個刑度欸你變成你保安處分跟你原來的刑法變成河流欸你本來要去做區隔欸你要讓他回歸到社會啊為什麼要保安處分你今天有債犯啊回到社會是一個風險啊可是你現在被凍結以後你衝擊到你整個矯正署你底下的這些矯正的處分這些資源你不覺得這個很荒謬嗎你不覺得這個問題很嚴重嗎\n\n25\n00:09:16,515 --> 00:09:26,901\n這會影響到我們整體社會治安那當然這個凍結部分我們本署會盡力盡全力來解凍做一些努力剛好相反\n\n26\n00:09:28,171 --> 00:09:54,565\n我認為不是影響到社會治安我是影響到衝擊到整個人權的問題啦你就沒辦法出來它會影響一直關一直關它會影響社會治安你的保安處分你的預算你就已經沒有了心理治療也好各方面的治療也好你沒有辦法去讓它完成了怎麼會影響到社會治安是繼續關下去啊它有可能期滿啦社會出去期滿你還是要保安處分喔你還是要保安處分喔\n\n27\n00:09:58,137 --> 00:10:06,671\n你講的剛好相反啦我是怕的就變成說行旗變成無旗啦就是我們這個矯正你是署長的你跟我說答辯的這樣可以嗎署長我請你回答\n\n28\n00:10:09,933 --> 00:10:36,605\n其實是這樣啦監所內他要做相關的處遇嘛如果在監獄內的機構內的處遇做得好的話我們接下來的保安處分也許他期間就可以縮短如果機構內的處遇做得不好的話接下來他面對的是保安處分也許他的保安處分時間就長所以委員講的是有道理的就是說如果我們機構內監獄內的處遇做得好未來他機構外出去的保安處分接的時間就會短因為他在機構內已經做了相關的保安處遇了\n\n29\n00:10:37,685 --> 00:10:53,420\n光這一些保安處分喔大法官至少你隨便去翻就兩號解釋啦就變成說這個保安處分像我剛提那個案子啊那個例子啊你就很明顯就違反比例原則嘛他有什麼例子你給他判四宗的官官要判二十宗\n\n30\n00:10:54,890 --> 00:11:15,932\n為什麼會這樣本來判四年就是執行四年啊可是我們就創設了因為要防止社會的風險啊我們就加一個保安處分啊然後你定期再給他去評鑑啊一評鑑不會過不會過不會過到二十年啊這也不對啊這也不對啊那個還不是性侵案件欸還是強制猥褻案件欸那是一種病啊\n\n31\n00:11:16,843 --> 00:11:37,753\n一個年輕人看到老太婆就給他亂摸亂摸當然檢察官就起訴啊法官就判刑啊就抓去關啊抓去關關完啊我們這是一個地方上的一個廟的主委啊平常是整個社區整個鄉裡面的精神導師啊不是要來找我\n\n32\n00:11:40,595 --> 00:11:57,564\n在哭你看我走一下說你不是大家都在找你告誡告誡讓你大家都知道你愛講精神安慰玩你的雪花要給你精神安慰我一個人蒙內他說我們今天判四宗啊我就管二十宗我說天啊如果有這個話就不可能我聽下去我第一個想一定是保安處分被我猜對了\n\n33\n00:11:59,105 --> 00:12:13,560\n對各位報告因為強制治療這種保安處分除了拘禁之外它還兼有一個社會防衛的功用所以我們在強制治療的時候它訂了一個它其實有個評估機制要到它再犯風險降低之後才停這個會變成什麼呢這個會衝擊到什麼呢署長會衝擊到什麼假設制度你會形同虛設\n\n34\n00:12:20,253 --> 00:12:34,572\n本來你這個保安處分你去繳制他有可能提前出來二分之一他就可以繳制可是因為你這個預算的去凍結了以後這一些繳正的一個儲遇會把你整個量能不夠\n\n35\n00:12:35,813 --> 00:12:50,017\n會衝擊到第一個假釋之路也有可能第二個會變成什麼呢你這個保安處分變成遙遙無期啊遙遙無期我擔心的不是他的遙遙無期人權當然很重要這最主要你整個監獄裡面你對這些收容人來講的話人心也都會浮動啊第三個會怎麼樣你監所的管理我看你怎麼管理\n\n36\n00:13:00,276 --> 00:13:08,688\n所以我倒認為這個問題非常嚴重啦您這些解凍案啦我相信吳宗憲委員也會去幫忙啦在野黨\n\n37\n00:13:10,277 --> 00:13:29,923\n監督或者國會不分朝野這樣的一個監督都非常合理的可是難免啦這次凍結的時候啊都沒有想到這些後遺症啊你說司法院的精神的一個精神病患我們剛剛提到的35億快蓋好了蓋了七成多了那個精神病院嘛齁你給他硬體有什麼用光硬體有什麼用你的心理師呢你的這些專業的廚藝呢\n\n38\n00:13:38,322 --> 00:13:59,979\n我們要的是這些啊我們蓋這些硬體國會給這筆錢的意義在讓這些受刑人他哪一天再趕快把他治好把他重新讓他回到社會否則很簡單啊犯人全部都關就好啦全部都跟社會隔絕這個社會就最安全了可是這是我們要的嗎也不是吧\n\n39\n00:14:00,459 --> 00:14:29,677\n是報告委員我們針對受刑人來講處役都是高度風險的那我們凍結或是刪減這些經費之後我們影響我們處役之後這些高度風險的處役成效降低之後他還是會回歸社會所以我講的是還是會影響理由寫一寫啦趕快送解動案啦我幫你們忙啦好不好這個對社會都高度衝擊的你們都不當一回事啊我最在意的反而是這一些啦好不好\n\n40\n00:14:33,056 --> 00:14:34,281\n好謝謝那下一位我們\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n22193\t29335\t謝謝主席有請我們法務部任某村部長趙安樓次長市長市長甲正署署長麻煩甲正署署長\n32245\t32492\t委員好\n38246\t66629\t次長有幾個問題來就教啦我本期先開始一開始我先追問一下就是說有關於我們這個監所的深夜的危老家籍的一個問題在當時行政院提出說要警察還有消防 移民空勤輪班公務員深夜的一個危險津貼的時候那個時候我就提醒法務部就是我們在監所同樣性質的這些\n68190\t92652\t矯正署的人員啊他們應該去比照辦理我也希望說你們可以向行政院來做一個爭取本期現在所知道的是說好像行政院跟你們講說性質不同我不曉得這個部分 次長你的看法那事實上本部也是完全贊成我們的矯正人員他要比照相關的警消有深夜的圍牢加急事實上本部的函文也向行政院爭取\n93212\t120789\t當然行政院後來有一些意見那退回來之後本部也在今年的一月啊又再補充相關的補充理由希望行政院能夠再考量我們的矯正人員他的確他的危險跟警消他的深夜要比較相同的辦理這是本部一貫的立場所以這個部分我應該繼續向行政院來做一個爭取啦對這個才合理啦我就不曉得說你光講一個說性質不同不同在什麼地方我想署長你也很清楚吧\n122152\t144968\t你們那些檢索人員 暗示啊 大家在那裡很大的危險性啊報告委員 我們去年的9月有報政院來爭取那我們人 行政院的意思是說所謂的深夜勤的100元的那個加班增加是\n145748\t159675\t比如說警察的離開住在這派出所住在地的巡邏或是警消的救災或是像那個移民署他有查緝抓捕那我們監守\n160836\t187933\t可能在性質上可能在爭他是請我們再斟酌一下然後再補充說明啦所以我們剛剛次長有提到我們一夜份也有在報行政院來爭取因為我們監所也有移監、借戶外衣這一些外面的勤務這也是離開為獎的那夜間深夜也是風險性比較大\n188493\t211379\t所以市長這個繼續爭取啦好不好我是覺得這個應該值得支持啦另外喔 另外本席倒想針對在立法院裡面這一次針對法務部尤其是繳證書這個預算的凍結的部分來救教本席一直在講對於司法院或者對法務部這個預算的一個審查\n212723\t238954\t監督當然要監督 國會本來就是要監督但問題是預算不管是刪減或者凍結要特別謹慎我想是不是請矯正署來具體做一個說明我們現在針對於我們譬如說少年矯正廚藝的方面哪一些措施會受到這一次的一個預算的一個刪除或者凍結受到影響\n242289\t254219\t報告委員這個預算的刪減當然對於紹角校的所謂的新設的資源會受到很大的影響那包括我們矯正來講\n257521\t267025\t所謂的性侵 家暴 或是毒品 酒飲這些都會有被受影響 整體來講我現在問你的是 你現在凍結一頁你對你的影響會有多大 我為什麼會提出這個問題\n275149\t294617\t我們矯正機關對於我們的收容人含這一些矯正學校的學生你在實施不管是心理或者社工專業廚藝跟依法辦理的治療性的一些廚藝比如說你的毒品性侵犯家暴這一些你總體的經費裡面你現在矯正署你被凍結的是一億你除了去影響到你整個矯正教育還有整個輔導廚藝的資源以外你這一些各項的一個業務的執行\n305663\t310547\t你說不會去影響我擔心的是什麼我擔心的是譬如說我們現在\n313340\t341562\t訂了一個法院判決一個執行刑以後我們還有一些保安處分你涉及到保安處分的我說在野黨這一次的一個凍結這個預算我是覺得非常不合理的地方是應該要受到譴責的地方我也希望說我們召委吳宗憲因為是法律人出身的要特別去注意到這個問題我們最擔心的是什麼像譬如說我律師的職業生涯裡面我最擔心的是那種刑期\n344533\t365191\t看不到他自己要被關幾年我一直在舉例我自己在屏東我的選區裡面 猥褻案件關於判案比較不適當執行下來多久 快20年我都覺得這個都違反整個刑期的一個明確性\n366328\t374054\t然後呢 因為你繳制到最後 你應該沒有通過嘛 你說一個保安處分嘛 那沒辦法一年一屆 你現在五年 過三年 過一年 每年來做評鑑 評鑑都不會過這個一個強制猥褻案件 到最後你真正的執行期都比一個殺人犯還要長\n388823\t415002\t這個有時候我會覺得都非常荒謬所以你把這個預算給砍掉 把它給凍結掉了我都很擔心啦台灣社會現在啊 大家都希望說 這一些罪犯抓去關關完以後 這個社會眼不見為淨全部都是你矯正所的事 都你矯正所的事人的犯罪之後 檢察官就起訴 法案就判刑判刑人送到監獄裡面去 喔這個社會都看不見了 喔好安全是這樣子喔\n417386\t431574\t只要他不是被剝奪他的生命不是被判處死刑或者是終身監禁的總是你整個矯正教育送到監獄裡面就是要讓他再回歸社會嘛不然我們花這麼多錢我們給矯正署這麼多錢蓋這麼多監獄要幹什麼那這筆預算凍結了以後我最擔心的啦我最擔心的就是這些啦所以我怕到你們這個衝擊你像譬如說你\n444172\t462600\t你判了七年 我不喜歡舉這種性侵案件啦因為性侵案件大家都討厭可是呢 如果說你判了七年你到了三年半他本身就可以服刑一半就可以假釋那你到了前兩年半的時候你就必須要去做評鑑\n464031\t477369\t去做評鑑 那你把這一些錢 把它給凍結以後去影響到你們本來要作接保安處分的一些處遇的那你們說全部都 你們都不會叫 我都覺得很奇怪假設我看你們這次都沒有求救欸\n481258\t492341\t報告委員 我們114年度首席整體所謂的相關處役是2.6億 被刪減1億的話除了剛剛我報告的這些輔導處役會受影響之外包括我們機關的設施機構的維護還有我們的人員訓練以及醫療各項業務都會受到執行上面的重大影響\n509386\t527839\t你們講的是重大影響我看到的是法律層面我看到的是變成你一個保安處分出來以後本來你執行完以後還有一個保安處分那你這些保安處分你沒有辦法達到原來的一個效果會變成什麼\n530558\t550936\t多增加了一個刑度欸你變成你保安處分跟你原來的刑法變成河流欸你本來要去做區隔欸你要讓他回歸到社會啊為什麼要保安處分你今天有債犯啊回到社會是一個風險啊可是你現在被凍結以後你衝擊到你整個矯正署你底下的這些矯正的處分這些資源你不覺得這個很荒謬嗎你不覺得這個問題很嚴重嗎\n556515\t566901\t這會影響到我們整體社會治安那當然這個凍結部分我們本署會盡力盡全力來解凍做一些努力剛好相反\n568171\t594565\t我認為不是影響到社會治安我是影響到 衝擊到整個人權的問題啦你就沒辦法出來 它會影響一直關 一直關 它會影響社會治安你的保安處分 你的預算 你就已經沒有了心理治療也好 各方面的治療也好你沒有辦法去讓它完成了怎麼會影響到社會治安 是繼續關下去啊它有可能期滿啦 社會出去期滿你還是要保安處分喔你還是要保安處分喔\n598137\t606671\t你講的剛好相反啦我是怕的就變成說行旗變成無旗啦就是我們這個矯正你是署長的你跟我說答辯的這樣可以嗎 署長我請你回答\n609933\t636605\t其實是這樣啦 監所內他要做相關的處遇嘛如果在監獄內的機構內的處遇做得好的話我們接下來的保安處分也許他期間就可以縮短如果機構內的處遇做得不好的話接下來他面對的是保安處分也許他的保安處分時間就長所以委員講的是有道理的就是說如果我們機構內監獄內的處遇做得好未來他機構外出去的保安處分接的時間就會短因為他在機構內已經做了相關的保安處遇了\n637685\t653420\t光這一些保安處分喔 大法官至少你隨便去翻就兩號解釋啦就變成說這個保安處分 像我剛提那個案子啊 那個例子啊你就很明顯就違反比例原則嘛他有什麼例子 你給他判四宗的官 官要判二十宗\n654890\t675932\t為什麼會這樣本來判四年就是執行四年啊可是我們就創設了因為要防止社會的風險啊我們就加一個保安處分啊然後你定期再給他去評鑑啊一評鑑不會過不會過不會過到二十年啊這也不對啊這也不對啊那個還不是性侵案件欸還是強制猥褻案件欸那是一種病啊\n676843\t697753\t一個年輕人看到老太婆就給他亂摸亂摸當然檢察官就起訴啊 法官就判刑啊就抓去關啊 抓去關 關完啊我們這是一個地方上的一個廟的主委啊平常是整個社區整個鄉裡面的精神導師啊不是要來找我\n700595\t717564\t在哭 你看 我走一下 說你不是大家都在找你告誡告誡 讓你 大家都知道你愛講精神安慰 玩你的雪花要給你精神安慰我一個人蒙內 他說我們今天判四宗 啊我就管二十宗我說天啊 如果有這個話就不可能 我聽下去我第一個想 一定是保安處分 被我猜對了\n719105\t733560\t對 各位報告因為強制治療這種保安處分除了拘禁之外它還兼有一個社會防衛的功用所以我們在強制治療的時候它訂了一個它其實有個評估機制要到它再犯風險降低之後才停這個會變成什麼呢這個會衝擊到什麼呢 署長會衝擊到什麼假設制度你會形同虛設\n740253\t754572\t本來你這個保安處分你去繳制他有可能提前出來 二分之一他就可以繳制可是因為你這個預算的去凍結了以後這一些繳正的一個儲遇會把你整個量能不夠\n755813\t770017\t會衝擊到第一個 假釋之路也有可能第二個會變成什麼呢你這個保安處分變成遙遙無期啊遙遙無期我擔心的不是他的遙遙無期人權當然很重要這最主要你整個監獄裡面你對這些收容人來講的話人心也都會浮動啊第三個會怎麼樣你監所的管理我看你怎麼管理\n780276\t788688\t所以我倒認為這個問題非常嚴重啦您這些解凍案啦我相信吳宗憲委員也會去幫忙啦在野黨\n790277\t809923\t監督或者國會不分朝野這樣的一個監督都非常合理的可是難免啦這次凍結的時候啊都沒有想到這些後遺症啊你說司法院的精神的一個精神病患我們剛剛提到的35億快蓋好了 蓋了七成多了那個精神病院嘛齁你給他硬體有什麼用光硬體有什麼用你的心理師呢你的這些專業的廚藝呢\n818322\t839979\t我們要的是這些啊 我們蓋這些硬體 國會給這筆錢的意義在讓這些受刑人他哪一天再趕快把他治好 把他重新讓他回到社會否則很簡單啊 犯人全部都關就好啦 全部都跟社會隔絕 這個社會就最安全了可是這是我們要的嗎 也不是吧\n840459\t869677\t是 報告委員我們針對受刑人來講處役都是高度風險的那我們凍結或是刪減這些經費之後我們影響我們處役之後這些高度風險的處役成效降低之後他還是會回歸社會所以我講的是還是會影響理由寫一寫啦 趕快送解動案啦我幫你們忙啦 好不好這個對社會都高度衝擊的你們都不當一回事啊我最在意的反而是這一些啦 好不好\n873056\t874281\t好 謝謝 那下一位我們\n","txt":"謝謝主席有請我們法務部任某村部長趙安樓次長市長市長甲正署署長麻煩甲正署署長\n委員好\n次長有幾個問題來就教啦我本期先開始一開始我先追問一下就是說有關於我們這個監所的深夜的危老家籍的一個問題在當時行政院提出說要警察還有消防 移民空勤輪班公務員深夜的一個危險津貼的時候那個時候我就提醒法務部就是我們在監所同樣性質的這些\n矯正署的人員啊他們應該去比照辦理我也希望說你們可以向行政院來做一個爭取本期現在所知道的是說好像行政院跟你們講說性質不同我不曉得這個部分 次長你的看法那事實上本部也是完全贊成我們的矯正人員他要比照相關的警消有深夜的圍牢加急事實上本部的函文也向行政院爭取\n當然行政院後來有一些意見那退回來之後本部也在今年的一月啊又再補充相關的補充理由希望行政院能夠再考量我們的矯正人員他的確他的危險跟警消他的深夜要比較相同的辦理這是本部一貫的立場所以這個部分我應該繼續向行政院來做一個爭取啦對這個才合理啦我就不曉得說你光講一個說性質不同不同在什麼地方我想署長你也很清楚吧\n你們那些檢索人員 暗示啊 大家在那裡很大的危險性啊報告委員 我們去年的9月有報政院來爭取那我們人 行政院的意思是說所謂的深夜勤的100元的那個加班增加是\n比如說警察的離開住在這派出所住在地的巡邏或是警消的救災或是像那個移民署他有查緝抓捕那我們監守\n可能在性質上可能在爭他是請我們再斟酌一下然後再補充說明啦所以我們剛剛次長有提到我們一夜份也有在報行政院來爭取因為我們監所也有移監、借戶外衣這一些外面的勤務這也是離開為獎的那夜間深夜也是風險性比較大\n所以市長這個繼續爭取啦好不好我是覺得這個應該值得支持啦另外喔 另外本席倒想針對在立法院裡面這一次針對法務部尤其是繳證書這個預算的凍結的部分來救教本席一直在講對於司法院或者對法務部這個預算的一個審查\n監督當然要監督 國會本來就是要監督但問題是預算不管是刪減或者凍結要特別謹慎我想是不是請矯正署來具體做一個說明我們現在針對於我們譬如說少年矯正廚藝的方面哪一些措施會受到這一次的一個預算的一個刪除或者凍結受到影響\n報告委員這個預算的刪減當然對於紹角校的所謂的新設的資源會受到很大的影響那包括我們矯正來講\n所謂的性侵 家暴 或是毒品 酒飲這些都會有被受影響 整體來講我現在問你的是 你現在凍結一頁你對你的影響會有多大 我為什麼會提出這個問題\n我們矯正機關對於我們的收容人含這一些矯正學校的學生你在實施不管是心理或者社工專業廚藝跟依法辦理的治療性的一些廚藝比如說你的毒品性侵犯家暴這一些你總體的經費裡面你現在矯正署你被凍結的是一億你除了去影響到你整個矯正教育還有整個輔導廚藝的資源以外你這一些各項的一個業務的執行\n你說不會去影響我擔心的是什麼我擔心的是譬如說我們現在\n訂了一個法院判決一個執行刑以後我們還有一些保安處分你涉及到保安處分的我說在野黨這一次的一個凍結這個預算我是覺得非常不合理的地方是應該要受到譴責的地方我也希望說我們召委吳宗憲因為是法律人出身的要特別去注意到這個問題我們最擔心的是什麼像譬如說我律師的職業生涯裡面我最擔心的是那種刑期\n看不到他自己要被關幾年我一直在舉例我自己在屏東我的選區裡面 猥褻案件關於判案比較不適當執行下來多久 快20年我都覺得這個都違反整個刑期的一個明確性\n然後呢 因為你繳制到最後 你應該沒有通過嘛 你說一個保安處分嘛 那沒辦法一年一屆 你現在五年 過三年 過一年 每年來做評鑑 評鑑都不會過這個一個強制猥褻案件 到最後你真正的執行期都比一個殺人犯還要長\n這個有時候我會覺得都非常荒謬所以你把這個預算給砍掉 把它給凍結掉了我都很擔心啦台灣社會現在啊 大家都希望說 這一些罪犯抓去關關完以後 這個社會眼不見為淨全部都是你矯正所的事 都你矯正所的事人的犯罪之後 檢察官就起訴 法案就判刑判刑人送到監獄裡面去 喔這個社會都看不見了 喔好安全是這樣子喔\n只要他不是被剝奪他的生命不是被判處死刑或者是終身監禁的總是你整個矯正教育送到監獄裡面就是要讓他再回歸社會嘛不然我們花這麼多錢我們給矯正署這麼多錢蓋這麼多監獄要幹什麼那這筆預算凍結了以後我最擔心的啦我最擔心的就是這些啦所以我怕到你們這個衝擊你像譬如說你\n你判了七年 我不喜歡舉這種性侵案件啦因為性侵案件大家都討厭可是呢 如果說你判了七年你到了三年半他本身就可以服刑一半就可以假釋那你到了前兩年半的時候你就必須要去做評鑑\n去做評鑑 那你把這一些錢 把它給凍結以後去影響到你們本來要作接保安處分的一些處遇的那你們說全部都 你們都不會叫 我都覺得很奇怪假設我看你們這次都沒有求救欸\n報告委員 我們114年度首席整體所謂的相關處役是2.6億 被刪減1億的話除了剛剛我報告的這些輔導處役會受影響之外包括我們機關的設施機構的維護還有我們的人員訓練以及醫療各項業務都會受到執行上面的重大影響\n你們講的是重大影響我看到的是法律層面我看到的是變成你一個保安處分出來以後本來你執行完以後還有一個保安處分那你這些保安處分你沒有辦法達到原來的一個效果會變成什麼\n多增加了一個刑度欸你變成你保安處分跟你原來的刑法變成河流欸你本來要去做區隔欸你要讓他回歸到社會啊為什麼要保安處分你今天有債犯啊回到社會是一個風險啊可是你現在被凍結以後你衝擊到你整個矯正署你底下的這些矯正的處分這些資源你不覺得這個很荒謬嗎你不覺得這個問題很嚴重嗎\n這會影響到我們整體社會治安那當然這個凍結部分我們本署會盡力盡全力來解凍做一些努力剛好相反\n我認為不是影響到社會治安我是影響到 衝擊到整個人權的問題啦你就沒辦法出來 它會影響一直關 一直關 它會影響社會治安你的保安處分 你的預算 你就已經沒有了心理治療也好 各方面的治療也好你沒有辦法去讓它完成了怎麼會影響到社會治安 是繼續關下去啊它有可能期滿啦 社會出去期滿你還是要保安處分喔你還是要保安處分喔\n你講的剛好相反啦我是怕的就變成說行旗變成無旗啦就是我們這個矯正你是署長的你跟我說答辯的這樣可以嗎 署長我請你回答\n其實是這樣啦 監所內他要做相關的處遇嘛如果在監獄內的機構內的處遇做得好的話我們接下來的保安處分也許他期間就可以縮短如果機構內的處遇做得不好的話接下來他面對的是保安處分也許他的保安處分時間就長所以委員講的是有道理的就是說如果我們機構內監獄內的處遇做得好未來他機構外出去的保安處分接的時間就會短因為他在機構內已經做了相關的保安處遇了\n光這一些保安處分喔 大法官至少你隨便去翻就兩號解釋啦就變成說這個保安處分 像我剛提那個案子啊 那個例子啊你就很明顯就違反比例原則嘛他有什麼例子 你給他判四宗的官 官要判二十宗\n為什麼會這樣本來判四年就是執行四年啊可是我們就創設了因為要防止社會的風險啊我們就加一個保安處分啊然後你定期再給他去評鑑啊一評鑑不會過不會過不會過到二十年啊這也不對啊這也不對啊那個還不是性侵案件欸還是強制猥褻案件欸那是一種病啊\n一個年輕人看到老太婆就給他亂摸亂摸當然檢察官就起訴啊 法官就判刑啊就抓去關啊 抓去關 關完啊我們這是一個地方上的一個廟的主委啊平常是整個社區整個鄉裡面的精神導師啊不是要來找我\n在哭 你看 我走一下 說你不是大家都在找你告誡告誡 讓你 大家都知道你愛講精神安慰 玩你的雪花要給你精神安慰我一個人蒙內 他說我們今天判四宗 啊我就管二十宗我說天啊 如果有這個話就不可能 我聽下去我第一個想 一定是保安處分 被我猜對了\n對 各位報告因為強制治療這種保安處分除了拘禁之外它還兼有一個社會防衛的功用所以我們在強制治療的時候它訂了一個它其實有個評估機制要到它再犯風險降低之後才停這個會變成什麼呢這個會衝擊到什麼呢 署長會衝擊到什麼假設制度你會形同虛設\n本來你這個保安處分你去繳制他有可能提前出來 二分之一他就可以繳制可是因為你這個預算的去凍結了以後這一些繳正的一個儲遇會把你整個量能不夠\n會衝擊到第一個 假釋之路也有可能第二個會變成什麼呢你這個保安處分變成遙遙無期啊遙遙無期我擔心的不是他的遙遙無期人權當然很重要這最主要你整個監獄裡面你對這些收容人來講的話人心也都會浮動啊第三個會怎麼樣你監所的管理我看你怎麼管理\n所以我倒認為這個問題非常嚴重啦您這些解凍案啦我相信吳宗憲委員也會去幫忙啦在野黨\n監督或者國會不分朝野這樣的一個監督都非常合理的可是難免啦這次凍結的時候啊都沒有想到這些後遺症啊你說司法院的精神的一個精神病患我們剛剛提到的35億快蓋好了 蓋了七成多了那個精神病院嘛齁你給他硬體有什麼用光硬體有什麼用你的心理師呢你的這些專業的廚藝呢\n我們要的是這些啊 我們蓋這些硬體 國會給這筆錢的意義在讓這些受刑人他哪一天再趕快把他治好 把他重新讓他回到社會否則很簡單啊 犯人全部都關就好啦 全部都跟社會隔絕 這個社會就最安全了可是這是我們要的嗎 也不是吧\n是 報告委員我們針對受刑人來講處役都是高度風險的那我們凍結或是刪減這些經費之後我們影響我們處役之後這些高度風險的處役成效降低之後他還是會回歸社會所以我講的是還是會影響理由寫一寫啦 趕快送解動案啦我幫你們忙啦 好不好這個對社會都高度衝擊的你們都不當一回事啊我最在意的反而是這一些啦 好不好\n好 謝謝 那下一位我們\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:22.193 --> 00:29.335\n謝謝主席有請我們法務部任某村部長趙安樓次長市長市長甲正署署長麻煩甲正署署長\n\n00:32.245 --> 00:32.492\n委員好\n\n00:38.246 --> 01:06.629\n次長有幾個問題來就教啦我本期先開始一開始我先追問一下就是說有關於我們這個監所的深夜的危老家籍的一個問題在當時行政院提出說要警察還有消防移民空勤輪班公務員深夜的一個危險津貼的時候那個時候我就提醒法務部就是我們在監所同樣性質的這些\n\n01:08.190 --> 01:32.652\n矯正署的人員啊他們應該去比照辦理我也希望說你們可以向行政院來做一個爭取本期現在所知道的是說好像行政院跟你們講說性質不同我不曉得這個部分次長你的看法那事實上本部也是完全贊成我們的矯正人員他要比照相關的警消有深夜的圍牢加急事實上本部的函文也向行政院爭取\n\n01:33.212 --> 02:00.789\n當然行政院後來有一些意見那退回來之後本部也在今年的一月啊又再補充相關的補充理由希望行政院能夠再考量我們的矯正人員他的確他的危險跟警消他的深夜要比較相同的辦理這是本部一貫的立場所以這個部分我應該繼續向行政院來做一個爭取啦對這個才合理啦我就不曉得說你光講一個說性質不同不同在什麼地方我想署長你也很清楚吧\n\n02:02.152 --> 02:24.968\n你們那些檢索人員暗示啊大家在那裡很大的危險性啊報告委員我們去年的9月有報政院來爭取那我們人行政院的意思是說所謂的深夜勤的100元的那個加班增加是\n\n02:25.748 --> 02:39.675\n比如說警察的離開住在這派出所住在地的巡邏或是警消的救災或是像那個移民署他有查緝抓捕那我們監守\n\n02:40.836 --> 03:07.933\n可能在性質上可能在爭他是請我們再斟酌一下然後再補充說明啦所以我們剛剛次長有提到我們一夜份也有在報行政院來爭取因為我們監所也有移監、借戶外衣這一些外面的勤務這也是離開為獎的那夜間深夜也是風險性比較大\n\n03:08.493 --> 03:31.379\n所以市長這個繼續爭取啦好不好我是覺得這個應該值得支持啦另外喔另外本席倒想針對在立法院裡面這一次針對法務部尤其是繳證書這個預算的凍結的部分來救教本席一直在講對於司法院或者對法務部這個預算的一個審查\n\n03:32.723 --> 03:58.954\n監督當然要監督國會本來就是要監督但問題是預算不管是刪減或者凍結要特別謹慎我想是不是請矯正署來具體做一個說明我們現在針對於我們譬如說少年矯正廚藝的方面哪一些措施會受到這一次的一個預算的一個刪除或者凍結受到影響\n\n04:02.289 --> 04:14.219\n報告委員這個預算的刪減當然對於紹角校的所謂的新設的資源會受到很大的影響那包括我們矯正來講\n\n04:17.521 --> 04:27.025\n所謂的性侵家暴或是毒品酒飲這些都會有被受影響整體來講我現在問你的是你現在凍結一頁你對你的影響會有多大我為什麼會提出這個問題\n\n04:35.149 --> 04:54.617\n我們矯正機關對於我們的收容人含這一些矯正學校的學生你在實施不管是心理或者社工專業廚藝跟依法辦理的治療性的一些廚藝比如說你的毒品性侵犯家暴這一些你總體的經費裡面你現在矯正署你被凍結的是一億你除了去影響到你整個矯正教育還有整個輔導廚藝的資源以外你這一些各項的一個業務的執行\n\n05:05.663 --> 05:10.547\n你說不會去影響我擔心的是什麼我擔心的是譬如說我們現在\n\n05:13.340 --> 05:41.562\n訂了一個法院判決一個執行刑以後我們還有一些保安處分你涉及到保安處分的我說在野黨這一次的一個凍結這個預算我是覺得非常不合理的地方是應該要受到譴責的地方我也希望說我們召委吳宗憲因為是法律人出身的要特別去注意到這個問題我們最擔心的是什麼像譬如說我律師的職業生涯裡面我最擔心的是那種刑期\n\n05:44.533 --> 06:05.191\n看不到他自己要被關幾年我一直在舉例我自己在屏東我的選區裡面猥褻案件關於判案比較不適當執行下來多久快20年我都覺得這個都違反整個刑期的一個明確性\n\n06:06.328 --> 06:14.054\n然後呢因為你繳制到最後你應該沒有通過嘛你說一個保安處分嘛那沒辦法一年一屆你現在五年過三年過一年每年來做評鑑評鑑都不會過這個一個強制猥褻案件到最後你真正的執行期都比一個殺人犯還要長\n\n06:28.823 --> 06:55.002\n這個有時候我會覺得都非常荒謬所以你把這個預算給砍掉把它給凍結掉了我都很擔心啦台灣社會現在啊大家都希望說這一些罪犯抓去關關完以後這個社會眼不見為淨全部都是你矯正所的事都你矯正所的事人的犯罪之後檢察官就起訴法案就判刑判刑人送到監獄裡面去喔這個社會都看不見了喔好安全是這樣子喔\n\n06:57.386 --> 07:11.574\n只要他不是被剝奪他的生命不是被判處死刑或者是終身監禁的總是你整個矯正教育送到監獄裡面就是要讓他再回歸社會嘛不然我們花這麼多錢我們給矯正署這麼多錢蓋這麼多監獄要幹什麼那這筆預算凍結了以後我最擔心的啦我最擔心的就是這些啦所以我怕到你們這個衝擊你像譬如說你\n\n07:24.172 --> 07:42.600\n你判了七年我不喜歡舉這種性侵案件啦因為性侵案件大家都討厭可是呢如果說你判了七年你到了三年半他本身就可以服刑一半就可以假釋那你到了前兩年半的時候你就必須要去做評鑑\n\n07:44.031 --> 07:57.369\n去做評鑑那你把這一些錢把它給凍結以後去影響到你們本來要作接保安處分的一些處遇的那你們說全部都你們都不會叫我都覺得很奇怪假設我看你們這次都沒有求救欸\n\n08:01.258 --> 08:12.341\n報告委員我們114年度首席整體所謂的相關處役是2.6億被刪減1億的話除了剛剛我報告的這些輔導處役會受影響之外包括我們機關的設施機構的維護還有我們的人員訓練以及醫療各項業務都會受到執行上面的重大影響\n\n08:29.386 --> 08:47.839\n你們講的是重大影響我看到的是法律層面我看到的是變成你一個保安處分出來以後本來你執行完以後還有一個保安處分那你這些保安處分你沒有辦法達到原來的一個效果會變成什麼\n\n08:50.558 --> 09:10.936\n多增加了一個刑度欸你變成你保安處分跟你原來的刑法變成河流欸你本來要去做區隔欸你要讓他回歸到社會啊為什麼要保安處分你今天有債犯啊回到社會是一個風險啊可是你現在被凍結以後你衝擊到你整個矯正署你底下的這些矯正的處分這些資源你不覺得這個很荒謬嗎你不覺得這個問題很嚴重嗎\n\n09:16.515 --> 09:26.901\n這會影響到我們整體社會治安那當然這個凍結部分我們本署會盡力盡全力來解凍做一些努力剛好相反\n\n09:28.171 --> 09:54.565\n我認為不是影響到社會治安我是影響到衝擊到整個人權的問題啦你就沒辦法出來它會影響一直關一直關它會影響社會治安你的保安處分你的預算你就已經沒有了心理治療也好各方面的治療也好你沒有辦法去讓它完成了怎麼會影響到社會治安是繼續關下去啊它有可能期滿啦社會出去期滿你還是要保安處分喔你還是要保安處分喔\n\n09:58.137 --> 10:06.671\n你講的剛好相反啦我是怕的就變成說行旗變成無旗啦就是我們這個矯正你是署長的你跟我說答辯的這樣可以嗎署長我請你回答\n\n10:09.933 --> 10:36.605\n其實是這樣啦監所內他要做相關的處遇嘛如果在監獄內的機構內的處遇做得好的話我們接下來的保安處分也許他期間就可以縮短如果機構內的處遇做得不好的話接下來他面對的是保安處分也許他的保安處分時間就長所以委員講的是有道理的就是說如果我們機構內監獄內的處遇做得好未來他機構外出去的保安處分接的時間就會短因為他在機構內已經做了相關的保安處遇了\n\n10:37.685 --> 10:53.420\n光這一些保安處分喔大法官至少你隨便去翻就兩號解釋啦就變成說這個保安處分像我剛提那個案子啊那個例子啊你就很明顯就違反比例原則嘛他有什麼例子你給他判四宗的官官要判二十宗\n\n10:54.890 --> 11:15.932\n為什麼會這樣本來判四年就是執行四年啊可是我們就創設了因為要防止社會的風險啊我們就加一個保安處分啊然後你定期再給他去評鑑啊一評鑑不會過不會過不會過到二十年啊這也不對啊這也不對啊那個還不是性侵案件欸還是強制猥褻案件欸那是一種病啊\n\n11:16.843 --> 11:37.753\n一個年輕人看到老太婆就給他亂摸亂摸當然檢察官就起訴啊法官就判刑啊就抓去關啊抓去關關完啊我們這是一個地方上的一個廟的主委啊平常是整個社區整個鄉裡面的精神導師啊不是要來找我\n\n11:40.595 --> 11:57.564\n在哭你看我走一下說你不是大家都在找你告誡告誡讓你大家都知道你愛講精神安慰玩你的雪花要給你精神安慰我一個人蒙內他說我們今天判四宗啊我就管二十宗我說天啊如果有這個話就不可能我聽下去我第一個想一定是保安處分被我猜對了\n\n11:59.105 --> 12:13.560\n對各位報告因為強制治療這種保安處分除了拘禁之外它還兼有一個社會防衛的功用所以我們在強制治療的時候它訂了一個它其實有個評估機制要到它再犯風險降低之後才停這個會變成什麼呢這個會衝擊到什麼呢署長會衝擊到什麼假設制度你會形同虛設\n\n12:20.253 --> 12:34.572\n本來你這個保安處分你去繳制他有可能提前出來二分之一他就可以繳制可是因為你這個預算的去凍結了以後這一些繳正的一個儲遇會把你整個量能不夠\n\n12:35.813 --> 12:50.017\n會衝擊到第一個假釋之路也有可能第二個會變成什麼呢你這個保安處分變成遙遙無期啊遙遙無期我擔心的不是他的遙遙無期人權當然很重要這最主要你整個監獄裡面你對這些收容人來講的話人心也都會浮動啊第三個會怎麼樣你監所的管理我看你怎麼管理\n\n13:00.276 --> 13:08.688\n所以我倒認為這個問題非常嚴重啦您這些解凍案啦我相信吳宗憲委員也會去幫忙啦在野黨\n\n13:10.277 --> 13:29.923\n監督或者國會不分朝野這樣的一個監督都非常合理的可是難免啦這次凍結的時候啊都沒有想到這些後遺症啊你說司法院的精神的一個精神病患我們剛剛提到的35億快蓋好了蓋了七成多了那個精神病院嘛齁你給他硬體有什麼用光硬體有什麼用你的心理師呢你的這些專業的廚藝呢\n\n13:38.322 --> 13:59.979\n我們要的是這些啊我們蓋這些硬體國會給這筆錢的意義在讓這些受刑人他哪一天再趕快把他治好把他重新讓他回到社會否則很簡單啊犯人全部都關就好啦全部都跟社會隔絕這個社會就最安全了可是這是我們要的嗎也不是吧\n\n14:00.459 --> 14:29.677\n是報告委員我們針對受刑人來講處役都是高度風險的那我們凍結或是刪減這些經費之後我們影響我們處役之後這些高度風險的處役成效降低之後他還是會回歸社會所以我講的是還是會影響理由寫一寫啦趕快送解動案啦我幫你們忙啦好不好這個對社會都高度衝擊的你們都不當一回事啊我最在意的反而是這一些啦好不好\n\n14:33.056 --> 14:34.281\n好謝謝那下一位我們\n\n","segments":[{"start":22.193,"end":29.335,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們法務部任某村部長趙安樓次長市長市長甲正署署長麻煩甲正署署長"},{"start":32.245,"end":32.492,"text":"委員好"},{"start":38.246,"end":66.629,"text":"次長有幾個問題來就教啦我本期先開始一開始我先追問一下就是說有關於我們這個監所的深夜的危老家籍的一個問題在當時行政院提出說要警察還有消防 移民空勤輪班公務員深夜的一個危險津貼的時候那個時候我就提醒法務部就是我們在監所同樣性質的這些"},{"start":68.19,"end":92.652,"text":"矯正署的人員啊他們應該去比照辦理我也希望說你們可以向行政院來做一個爭取本期現在所知道的是說好像行政院跟你們講說性質不同我不曉得這個部分 次長你的看法那事實上本部也是完全贊成我們的矯正人員他要比照相關的警消有深夜的圍牢加急事實上本部的函文也向行政院爭取"},{"start":93.212,"end":120.789,"text":"當然行政院後來有一些意見那退回來之後本部也在今年的一月啊又再補充相關的補充理由希望行政院能夠再考量我們的矯正人員他的確他的危險跟警消他的深夜要比較相同的辦理這是本部一貫的立場所以這個部分我應該繼續向行政院來做一個爭取啦對這個才合理啦我就不曉得說你光講一個說性質不同不同在什麼地方我想署長你也很清楚吧"},{"start":122.152,"end":144.968,"text":"你們那些檢索人員 暗示啊 大家在那裡很大的危險性啊報告委員 我們去年的9月有報政院來爭取那我們人 行政院的意思是說所謂的深夜勤的100元的那個加班增加是"},{"start":145.748,"end":159.675,"text":"比如說警察的離開住在這派出所住在地的巡邏或是警消的救災或是像那個移民署他有查緝抓捕那我們監守"},{"start":160.836,"end":187.933,"text":"可能在性質上可能在爭他是請我們再斟酌一下然後再補充說明啦所以我們剛剛次長有提到我們一夜份也有在報行政院來爭取因為我們監所也有移監、借戶外衣這一些外面的勤務這也是離開為獎的那夜間深夜也是風險性比較大"},{"start":188.493,"end":211.379,"text":"所以市長這個繼續爭取啦好不好我是覺得這個應該值得支持啦另外喔 另外本席倒想針對在立法院裡面這一次針對法務部尤其是繳證書這個預算的凍結的部分來救教本席一直在講對於司法院或者對法務部這個預算的一個審查"},{"start":212.723,"end":238.954,"text":"監督當然要監督 國會本來就是要監督但問題是預算不管是刪減或者凍結要特別謹慎我想是不是請矯正署來具體做一個說明我們現在針對於我們譬如說少年矯正廚藝的方面哪一些措施會受到這一次的一個預算的一個刪除或者凍結受到影響"},{"start":242.289,"end":254.219,"text":"報告委員這個預算的刪減當然對於紹角校的所謂的新設的資源會受到很大的影響那包括我們矯正來講"},{"start":257.521,"end":267.025,"text":"所謂的性侵 家暴 或是毒品 酒飲這些都會有被受影響 整體來講我現在問你的是 你現在凍結一頁你對你的影響會有多大 我為什麼會提出這個問題"},{"start":275.149,"end":294.617,"text":"我們矯正機關對於我們的收容人含這一些矯正學校的學生你在實施不管是心理或者社工專業廚藝跟依法辦理的治療性的一些廚藝比如說你的毒品性侵犯家暴這一些你總體的經費裡面你現在矯正署你被凍結的是一億你除了去影響到你整個矯正教育還有整個輔導廚藝的資源以外你這一些各項的一個業務的執行"},{"start":305.663,"end":310.547,"text":"你說不會去影響我擔心的是什麼我擔心的是譬如說我們現在"},{"start":313.34,"end":341.562,"text":"訂了一個法院判決一個執行刑以後我們還有一些保安處分你涉及到保安處分的我說在野黨這一次的一個凍結這個預算我是覺得非常不合理的地方是應該要受到譴責的地方我也希望說我們召委吳宗憲因為是法律人出身的要特別去注意到這個問題我們最擔心的是什麼像譬如說我律師的職業生涯裡面我最擔心的是那種刑期"},{"start":344.533,"end":365.191,"text":"看不到他自己要被關幾年我一直在舉例我自己在屏東我的選區裡面 猥褻案件關於判案比較不適當執行下來多久 快20年我都覺得這個都違反整個刑期的一個明確性"},{"start":366.328,"end":374.054,"text":"然後呢 因為你繳制到最後 你應該沒有通過嘛 你說一個保安處分嘛 那沒辦法一年一屆 你現在五年 過三年 過一年 每年來做評鑑 評鑑都不會過這個一個強制猥褻案件 到最後你真正的執行期都比一個殺人犯還要長"},{"start":388.823,"end":415.002,"text":"這個有時候我會覺得都非常荒謬所以你把這個預算給砍掉 把它給凍結掉了我都很擔心啦台灣社會現在啊 大家都希望說 這一些罪犯抓去關關完以後 這個社會眼不見為淨全部都是你矯正所的事 都你矯正所的事人的犯罪之後 檢察官就起訴 法案就判刑判刑人送到監獄裡面去 喔這個社會都看不見了 喔好安全是這樣子喔"},{"start":417.386,"end":431.574,"text":"只要他不是被剝奪他的生命不是被判處死刑或者是終身監禁的總是你整個矯正教育送到監獄裡面就是要讓他再回歸社會嘛不然我們花這麼多錢我們給矯正署這麼多錢蓋這麼多監獄要幹什麼那這筆預算凍結了以後我最擔心的啦我最擔心的就是這些啦所以我怕到你們這個衝擊你像譬如說你"},{"start":444.172,"end":462.6,"text":"你判了七年 我不喜歡舉這種性侵案件啦因為性侵案件大家都討厭可是呢 如果說你判了七年你到了三年半他本身就可以服刑一半就可以假釋那你到了前兩年半的時候你就必須要去做評鑑"},{"start":464.031,"end":477.369,"text":"去做評鑑 那你把這一些錢 把它給凍結以後去影響到你們本來要作接保安處分的一些處遇的那你們說全部都 你們都不會叫 我都覺得很奇怪假設我看你們這次都沒有求救欸"},{"start":481.258,"end":492.341,"text":"報告委員 我們114年度首席整體所謂的相關處役是2.6億 被刪減1億的話除了剛剛我報告的這些輔導處役會受影響之外包括我們機關的設施機構的維護還有我們的人員訓練以及醫療各項業務都會受到執行上面的重大影響"},{"start":509.386,"end":527.839,"text":"你們講的是重大影響我看到的是法律層面我看到的是變成你一個保安處分出來以後本來你執行完以後還有一個保安處分那你這些保安處分你沒有辦法達到原來的一個效果會變成什麼"},{"start":530.558,"end":550.936,"text":"多增加了一個刑度欸你變成你保安處分跟你原來的刑法變成河流欸你本來要去做區隔欸你要讓他回歸到社會啊為什麼要保安處分你今天有債犯啊回到社會是一個風險啊可是你現在被凍結以後你衝擊到你整個矯正署你底下的這些矯正的處分這些資源你不覺得這個很荒謬嗎你不覺得這個問題很嚴重嗎"},{"start":556.515,"end":566.901,"text":"這會影響到我們整體社會治安那當然這個凍結部分我們本署會盡力盡全力來解凍做一些努力剛好相反"},{"start":568.171,"end":594.565,"text":"我認為不是影響到社會治安我是影響到 衝擊到整個人權的問題啦你就沒辦法出來 它會影響一直關 一直關 它會影響社會治安你的保安處分 你的預算 你就已經沒有了心理治療也好 各方面的治療也好你沒有辦法去讓它完成了怎麼會影響到社會治安 是繼續關下去啊它有可能期滿啦 社會出去期滿你還是要保安處分喔你還是要保安處分喔"},{"start":598.137,"end":606.671,"text":"你講的剛好相反啦我是怕的就變成說行旗變成無旗啦就是我們這個矯正你是署長的你跟我說答辯的這樣可以嗎 署長我請你回答"},{"start":609.933,"end":636.605,"text":"其實是這樣啦 監所內他要做相關的處遇嘛如果在監獄內的機構內的處遇做得好的話我們接下來的保安處分也許他期間就可以縮短如果機構內的處遇做得不好的話接下來他面對的是保安處分也許他的保安處分時間就長所以委員講的是有道理的就是說如果我們機構內監獄內的處遇做得好未來他機構外出去的保安處分接的時間就會短因為他在機構內已經做了相關的保安處遇了"},{"start":637.685,"end":653.42,"text":"光這一些保安處分喔 大法官至少你隨便去翻就兩號解釋啦就變成說這個保安處分 像我剛提那個案子啊 那個例子啊你就很明顯就違反比例原則嘛他有什麼例子 你給他判四宗的官 官要判二十宗"},{"start":654.89,"end":675.932,"text":"為什麼會這樣本來判四年就是執行四年啊可是我們就創設了因為要防止社會的風險啊我們就加一個保安處分啊然後你定期再給他去評鑑啊一評鑑不會過不會過不會過到二十年啊這也不對啊這也不對啊那個還不是性侵案件欸還是強制猥褻案件欸那是一種病啊"},{"start":676.843,"end":697.753,"text":"一個年輕人看到老太婆就給他亂摸亂摸當然檢察官就起訴啊 法官就判刑啊就抓去關啊 抓去關 關完啊我們這是一個地方上的一個廟的主委啊平常是整個社區整個鄉裡面的精神導師啊不是要來找我"},{"start":700.595,"end":717.564,"text":"在哭 你看 我走一下 說你不是大家都在找你告誡告誡 讓你 大家都知道你愛講精神安慰 玩你的雪花要給你精神安慰我一個人蒙內 他說我們今天判四宗 啊我就管二十宗我說天啊 如果有這個話就不可能 我聽下去我第一個想 一定是保安處分 被我猜對了"},{"start":719.105,"end":733.56,"text":"對 各位報告因為強制治療這種保安處分除了拘禁之外它還兼有一個社會防衛的功用所以我們在強制治療的時候它訂了一個它其實有個評估機制要到它再犯風險降低之後才停這個會變成什麼呢這個會衝擊到什麼呢 署長會衝擊到什麼假設制度你會形同虛設"},{"start":740.253,"end":754.572,"text":"本來你這個保安處分你去繳制他有可能提前出來 二分之一他就可以繳制可是因為你這個預算的去凍結了以後這一些繳正的一個儲遇會把你整個量能不夠"},{"start":755.813,"end":770.017,"text":"會衝擊到第一個 假釋之路也有可能第二個會變成什麼呢你這個保安處分變成遙遙無期啊遙遙無期我擔心的不是他的遙遙無期人權當然很重要這最主要你整個監獄裡面你對這些收容人來講的話人心也都會浮動啊第三個會怎麼樣你監所的管理我看你怎麼管理"},{"start":780.276,"end":788.688,"text":"所以我倒認為這個問題非常嚴重啦您這些解凍案啦我相信吳宗憲委員也會去幫忙啦在野黨"},{"start":790.277,"end":809.923,"text":"監督或者國會不分朝野這樣的一個監督都非常合理的可是難免啦這次凍結的時候啊都沒有想到這些後遺症啊你說司法院的精神的一個精神病患我們剛剛提到的35億快蓋好了 蓋了七成多了那個精神病院嘛齁你給他硬體有什麼用光硬體有什麼用你的心理師呢你的這些專業的廚藝呢"},{"start":818.322,"end":839.979,"text":"我們要的是這些啊 我們蓋這些硬體 國會給這筆錢的意義在讓這些受刑人他哪一天再趕快把他治好 把他重新讓他回到社會否則很簡單啊 犯人全部都關就好啦 全部都跟社會隔絕 這個社會就最安全了可是這是我們要的嗎 也不是吧"},{"start":840.459,"end":869.677,"text":"是 報告委員我們針對受刑人來講處役都是高度風險的那我們凍結或是刪減這些經費之後我們影響我們處役之後這些高度風險的處役成效降低之後他還是會回歸社會所以我講的是還是會影響理由寫一寫啦 趕快送解動案啦我幫你們忙啦 好不好這個對社會都高度衝擊的你們都不當一回事啊我最在意的反而是這一些啦 好不好"},{"start":873.056,"end":874.281,"text":"好 謝謝 那下一位我們"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":981,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時45分）謝謝主席，有請我們法務部，部長離開了，那就換次長，以及矯正署署長。"],["主席：請次長，麻煩請矯正署署長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：次長，有幾個問題就教。本席一開始先追問一下，有關於我們監所的深夜危勞加給的問題，當時行政院提出說警察，還有消防、移民、空勤等輪班公務人員深夜的危險津貼的時候，那個時候我就提醒法務部，就是我們在監所同樣性質的這一些矯正署的人員，他們應該要比照辦理，我也希望你們可以向行政院來爭取。本席現在所知道的是，好像行政院跟你們講說性質不同，我不曉得這個部分，次長，你的看法呢？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，本部也完全贊成我們的矯正人員應比照相關的警消領取深夜的危勞加給，事實上本部也函文向行政院爭取，當然行政院後來有一些意見，退回來之後，本部也在今年的1月又再補充相關的理由，希望行政院能夠再考量，的確我們矯正人員深夜工作的危勞應該要相同的比照警消辦理，這是本部一貫的立場。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以這個部分應該繼續向行政院爭取……"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個才合理，我就不曉得光講一個說「性質不同」，不同在什麼地方？我想署長你也很清楚，對吧？你們一些監所人員晚上大家在……也有很大的危險性啊！"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們去年9月有報行政院爭取，行政院的意思是所謂深夜勤的加班增加100元，是比如說警察離開派出所駐在地的巡邏或是警消的救災，或是像移民署有查緝抓捕，我們監所可能在性質上，他是請我們再斟酌一下然後再補充說明。所以我們剛剛次長有提到，我們1月分也有再報行政院來爭取，因為我們監所也有移監、戒護外醫這一些外面的勤務，這也是離開圍牆的，夜間深夜的風險性也是比較大，所以……"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以次長，這個繼續爭取啦！好不好？"],["黃次長謀信：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我是覺得這個應該值得支持啦！另外，本席倒想就立法院這一次針對法務部，尤其是矯正署預算凍結的部分來就教。本席一直在講，對於司法院或者法務部預算的審查監督，當然要監督，國會本來就是要監督，但問題是不管是刪減或者凍結預算要特別謹慎。我想是不是請矯正署具體做個說明，我們現在針對於比如說少年矯正處遇的方面，你哪一些措施會因為這一次預算的刪除或者凍結而受到影響？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，預算的刪減當然對於少矯校的新設的資源會受到很大的影響，包括我們矯正來講，所謂的性侵、家暴或是毒品、酒癮，整體來講這些都會備受影響。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我現在問你的是，你現在被凍結1億，對你的影響會有多大？我為什麼會提出這個問題，我們的矯正機關對於收容人，包含這些矯正學校的學生，你在實施不管是心理或者社工專業處遇跟依法辦理的治療性的一些處遇，比如說你的毒品、性侵犯、家暴這一些，你總體的經費裡面，現在矯正署被凍結的是1億，除了影響到整個矯正教育，還有整個輔導處遇的資源以外，你們各項業務的執行，你說不會去影響，我擔心的是什麼？我擔心的是譬如說，我們現在法院判決一個執行刑以後，還有一些保安處分，涉及到保安處分的預算，我說在野黨這一次凍結這個預算，我覺得這是非常不合理的地方，是應該要受到譴責的地方。","我也希望我們的召委吳宗憲，你也是法律人出身的，要特別去注意到這個問題。我們最擔心的是什麼？像比如說我律師的執業生涯裡面，我最擔心的是那種刑期看不到他自己要被關幾年，我一直在舉例，我自己在屏東我的選區裡面，猥褻案件判的刑期還不到4年，執行下來多久？快20年。我覺得這個都違反整個刑期的明確性，然後矯治到最後因為你沒有通過嘛，你說一個保安處分嘛，沒有辦法一年一次，現在是5年再過來是3年然後再過來是1年，每年來做評鑑，評鑑都不過，導致一個強制猥褻案件到最後真正的執行期比一個殺人犯還要長，這種情形有時候我都覺得非常荒謬。所以把這個預算給砍掉、把它給凍結掉了，我都很擔心。臺灣社會現在大家都希望把這些罪犯抓去關，關完以後大家眼不見為淨，全部都是你們矯正署的事。全都矯正署的事情！有人犯罪以後，檢察官就起訴、法官就判刑，然後把他送到監獄裡面去，這個社會都看不見，以為好安全。是這樣子哦？其實只要他不是被剝奪生命、不是被判處死刑或者是終身監禁，送到監獄裡面以後，整個矯正教育就是要讓他再回歸社會嘛！不然我們花這麼多錢、給矯正署這麼多錢、蓋這麼多監獄要幹什麼？","這筆預算被凍結以後，我最擔心的就是這些，我怕你們會受到這個衝擊，比如說判了7年，我不喜歡舉性侵案件，因為性侵案件大家都討厭，可是如果判了7年，到了3年半，他本身服刑一半就可以申請假釋，到了2年半的時候就必須做評鑑，這些錢被凍結以後，去影響到你們本來要做這些保安處分的一些處遇，你說你們全部都不會叫，我就覺得很奇怪。矯正署，我看你們這次都沒有求救耶！"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們114年度整體相關處遇所需預算是2.6億，被刪減1億的話，除了剛剛我報告的這些輔導處遇會受影響之外，包括我們機關的設施、機構的維護，還有我們的人員訓練以及醫療各項業務的執行都會受到重大影響。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們講的是重大影響，我看到的是法律層面，我看到的是變成一個保安處分出來以後，本來你們執行完以後還要有一個保安處分，而這些保安處分沒有辦法達到原來的效果，會變成什麼？多增加一個刑度，變成保安處分和原來的刑罰合流耶！本來是要去做區隔的，因為要讓他回歸到社會啊！為什麼要保安處分？怕他會再犯，回到社會是一個風險。可是你們的預算現在被凍結以後，衝擊到整個矯正署底下這些矯正處分的資源，你不覺得這個很荒謬嗎？你不覺得這個問題很嚴重嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：這會影響到整體社會治安。當然，對於這個凍結的部分，本署會盡全力來為解凍做一些努力。"],["莊委員瑞雄：剛好相反！我認為不是影響到社會治安，而是影響到、衝擊到整個人權的問題。他們就沒辦法出來，怎麼會有影響？一直關、一直關，哪會影響到社會治安？保安處分的預算已經沒了，心理治療也好，各方面的治療也好，你們沒辦法讓它完成了，怎麼會影響到社會治安？是繼續關下去啊！"],["周署長輝煌：他有可能期滿還是會出去。"],["莊委員瑞雄：期滿還是要保安處分啊！你講的剛好相反。我怕的是刑期變成無期，就是這個矯正……","欸！你是署長耶，還跟我講相反的！這樣怎麼可以？","次長，我請你回答。"],["黃次長謀信：其實是這樣，監所內要做相關的處遇，如果在監獄內、機構內的處遇做得好的話，接下來的保安處分也許期間就可以縮短，如果機構內的處遇做得不好的話，接下來他面對的是保安處分，也許他保安處分的時間就長，所以委員講的是有道理的，就是說，如果機構內、監獄內的處遇做得好，未來他機構外、出去的保安處分銜接的時間就會短，因為他在機構內已經做了相關的處遇了。"],["莊委員瑞雄：光是這些保安處分，大法官解釋隨便去翻就有2號解釋，像我剛剛提的那個例子，就變成這個保安處分很明顯地違反比例原則嘛！哪有判4年，變成關了快要20年，為什麼會這樣？本來判4年就是執行4年啊，可是我們為了防止社會風險，就加了一個保安處分，定期進行評鑑，評鑑不會過、不會過、不會過，就這樣到了20年。這也不對啊！這還不是性侵案件，而是強制猥褻案件耶！那是一種病啊！一個年輕人看到老太婆，給人家亂摸，檢察官當然就起訴，法官就判刑，然後把他抓去關。那是地方上一個廟的主委，平常是整個社區、整個鄉裡面的精神導師，晚上來找我，在那邊哭，我嚇了一跳，對他說：不是大家都要找你告解嗎？應該是你提供大家精神安慰，怎麼換我要給你精神安慰？一問之下才知道他兒子被判4年，結果被關了快要20年。我說天底下怎麼會有這種法律，不可能，聽下去之後第一個想到的就是保安處分，結果就被我猜對了。"],["黃次長謀信：對，跟委員報告，因為強制治療的保安處分除了拘禁之外，還兼有社會防衛的功用，所以強制治療有一個評估機制，要到他再犯風險降低之後才停，這是一個制度設計上的問題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個會衝擊到什麼呢？署長，會衝擊到什麼呢？假釋制度會形同虛設！本來這個保安處分的矯治有可能讓他提前出來，二分之一就可以申請假釋了，可是因為這個預算被凍結，整個矯正處遇的量能會不夠，會衝擊到的第一個可能是假釋制度；第二個是這個保安處分會變成遙遙無期，我擔心的不是它的遙遙無期，人權當然很重要，最主要是對這些收容人來講，整個監獄裡面人心也都會浮動；第三個是監所的管理，我看你怎麼管理！","所以我倒是認為這個問題非常嚴重。對於你們這個解凍案，我相信吳宗憲委員也會去幫忙，在野黨監督或者是國會不分朝野這樣的監督都非常合理，可是難免在這次凍結的時候都沒有想到這些後遺症。你說司法院的精神病院，我們剛剛提到35億，快蓋好了、蓋了七成多了，你給它硬體有什麼用？光是硬體有什麼用？你們的心理師呢？專業處遇呢？我們要的是這些啊！我們蓋這些硬體、國會給這筆錢的意義在於哪一天能趕快把這些受刑人治好，讓他們重新回到社會。不然很簡單啊，犯人全部關著就好了啊！全部都跟社會隔絕，這個社會就最安全了啊！可是這是我們要的嗎？也不是吧！"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，針對受刑人來講，處遇都是高度風險的，凍結或是刪減這些經費，影響到我們的處遇，這些高度風險的處遇成效降低之後，他還是會回歸社會，所以我要說的是還是會影響到社會，是這個原因。"],["莊委員瑞雄：理由寫一寫啦！趕快送解凍案，本席會幫你們，好不好？這對社會高度衝擊，你們都不當一回事，本席最在意的反而是這些啦！"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請王義川委員發言。","同時做會議宣告，翁曉玲委員詢答完畢之後，休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","柯建銘","王義川","吳思瑤","黃國昌","王鴻薇","沈發惠","傅崐萁","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142601_00011"}}}