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\"他沒有制止洪才龍的一個發言然後沒有制止此事所以導致他也被那個不是他自己出問題是他當主席或什麼沒有制止那這個陳代主委那你現在當主席了如果有委員這是合議制的委員如果要發言的話你要不要制止未來類似像這樣狀況你要不要制止\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 49.704, \"end\": 50.465, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 50.465, \"end\": 50.625, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 50.625, \"end\": 50.845, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 50.845, \"end\": 51.105, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"止\", \"start\": 51.105, \"end\": 51.406, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"洪\", \"start\": 51.406, \"end\": 51.726, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 51.726, \"end\": 52.246, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"龍\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 52.246, \"end\": 52.347, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 52.347, \"end\": 52.907, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 52.907, \"end\": 53.087, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 53.087, \"end\": 53.227, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"後\", 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\"就如同在這個案子裡面我會提醒說這個可能有一些跟法律有一點出入的地方那當然最後委員因為不同的委員有不同的評估也許他們不認為有那這個我都尊重每個委員一樣大啦當然主委副主委也是那個但每個委員會就是合一致嘛那當然尊重委員的發言的權益當然會提醒他注意但是\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 97.498, \"end\": 97.618, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 97.618, \"end\": 97.718, \"score\": 0.721}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 97.718, \"end\": 97.898, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 97.898, \"end\": 98.538, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 98.538, \"end\": 98.718, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 98.718, \"end\": 98.938, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 98.938, \"end\": 99.479, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 99.479, \"end\": 99.719, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 99.719, \"end\": 99.819, \"score\": 0.687}, {\"word\": \"醒\", \"start\": 99.819, \"end\": 100.279, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": 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\"地\", \"start\": 102.76, \"end\": 102.92, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 102.92, \"end\": 103.48, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 103.48, \"end\": 103.68, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 103.68, \"end\": 103.82, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 103.82, \"end\": 103.92, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 103.92, \"end\": 104.06, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 104.06, \"end\": 104.9, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 104.9, \"end\": 105.04, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 105.04, \"end\": 105.141, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 105.141, \"end\": 105.221, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 105.221, \"end\": 105.281, \"score\": 0.655}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 105.281, \"end\": 105.381, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 105.381, \"end\": 105.541, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 105.541, \"end\": 105.641, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 105.641, \"end\": 105.741, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 105.741, \"end\": 106.101, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"評\"}, {\"word\": \"估\", \"start\": 106.101, \"end\": 106.501, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 106.501, \"end\": 106.601, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"許\", \"start\": 106.601, \"end\": 106.701, \"score\": 0.703}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 106.701, \"end\": 106.881, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 106.881, \"end\": 107.321, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 107.321, \"end\": 107.901, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 107.901, \"end\": 108.141, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 108.141, \"end\": 108.222, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 108.222, \"end\": 108.342, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"尊\", \"start\": 108.342, \"end\": 108.662, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 108.662, \"end\": 109.582, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"每\", \"start\": 109.582, \"end\": 109.902, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 109.902, \"end\": 110.162, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 110.162, \"end\": 110.522, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 110.522, \"end\": 110.722, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 110.722, \"end\": 111.082, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 111.082, \"end\": 111.683, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 111.683, \"end\": 111.803, \"score\": 0.708}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 111.803, \"end\": 111.923, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"副\", \"start\": 111.923, \"end\": 112.063, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 112.063, \"end\": 112.183, 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{\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 114.904, \"end\": 115.204, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 115.204, \"end\": 115.804, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 115.804, \"end\": 116.084, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"尊\", \"start\": 116.084, \"end\": 116.284, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 116.284, \"end\": 116.504, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 116.504, \"end\": 116.764, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 116.764, \"end\": 117.004, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 117.004, \"end\": 117.104, \"score\": 0.656}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 117.104, \"end\": 117.384, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"益\", \"start\": 117.384, \"end\": 117.545, \"score\": 0.718}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 117.545, \"end\": 117.685, \"score\": 0.692}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 117.685, \"end\": 117.825, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"醒\", \"start\": 117.825, \"end\": 117.985, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 117.985, \"end\": 118.205, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"注\", \"start\": 118.205, \"end\": 118.425, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 118.425, \"end\": 118.525, \"score\": 0.542}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 118.525, \"end\": 118.665, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 118.665, \"end\": 118.685, \"score\": 0.217}]}, {\"start\": 119.365, \"end\": 143.369, \"text\": \"沒有權力 竹委就一定制止誰一定不能發言嘛對不對不行對 那因為這樣的理由就把一個竹委給封殺掉我認為這個太過分啦就是說竹委沒有這樣的權力完全制止一個委員完全不能發言如果不能發言的話那還叫委員會制嗎就失去委員會制所以將來竹委你也會遇到這樣的問題所以我認為其實用這樣的理由來封殺李美竹委我認為其實是不公平的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 119.365, \"end\": 119.546, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 119.546, \"end\": 119.866, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 119.866, \"end\": 120.066, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"竹\", \"start\": 120.066, \"end\": 120.226, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 120.226, \"end\": 120.346, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 120.346, \"end\": 120.486, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 120.486, \"end\": 120.547, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 120.547, \"end\": 120.707, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 120.707, \"end\": 120.827, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"止\", \"start\": 120.827, \"end\": 121.187, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"誰\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 121.187, \"end\": 121.267, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 121.267, \"end\": 121.427, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 121.427, \"end\": 121.527, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 121.527, \"end\": 121.908, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 121.908, \"end\": 122.048, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 122.048, \"end\": 122.188, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 122.188, \"end\": 122.448, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 122.448, \"end\": 122.568, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 122.568, \"end\": 123.209, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 123.209, \"end\": 123.95, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 123.95, \"end\": 124.39, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 124.39, \"end\": 124.49, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 124.49, \"end\": 124.61, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 124.61, \"end\": 124.751, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 124.751, \"end\": 124.891, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 124.891, \"end\": 125.091, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 125.091, \"end\": 125.311, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"竹\", \"start\": 125.311, \"end\": 125.451, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 125.451, \"end\": 125.852, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"封\", \"start\": 125.852, \"end\": 126.252, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"殺\"}, {\"word\": \"掉\", \"start\": 126.252, \"end\": 126.452, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 126.452, \"end\": 127.573, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"太\", \"start\": 127.573, \"end\": 128.034, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 128.034, \"end\": 128.214, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 128.214, \"end\": 128.414, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 128.414, \"end\": 128.554, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 128.554, \"end\": 129.135, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"竹\", \"start\": 129.135, \"end\": 129.275, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 129.275, \"end\": 129.435, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 129.435, \"end\": 129.555, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 129.555, \"end\": 129.876, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 129.876, \"end\": 130.216, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 130.216, \"end\": 130.516, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 130.516, \"end\": 130.696, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 130.696, \"end\": 130.937, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 130.937, \"end\": 131.097, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"止\", \"start\": 131.097, \"end\": 131.237, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 131.237, \"end\": 131.477, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 131.477, \"end\": 131.697, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 131.697, \"end\": 131.878, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 131.878, \"end\": 132.038, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 132.038, \"end\": 132.118, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 132.118, \"end\": 132.438, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 132.438, \"end\": 132.558, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 132.558, \"end\": 132.658, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 132.658, \"end\": 132.718, \"score\": 0.664}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 132.718, \"end\": 132.798, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 132.798, \"end\": 133.119, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 133.119, \"end\": 133.219, \"score\": 0.753}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 133.219, \"end\": 133.879, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 133.879, \"end\": 134.14, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"叫\", \"start\": 134.14, \"end\": 134.3, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 134.3, \"end\": 134.72, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 134.72, \"end\": 135.281, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 135.281, \"end\": 135.461, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"失\", \"start\": 135.461, \"end\": 135.641, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 135.641, \"end\": 135.821, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 135.821, \"end\": 136.002, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 136.002, \"end\": 136.402, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 136.402, \"end\": 136.842, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 136.842, \"end\": 137.503, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"將\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"竹\", \"start\": 137.503, \"end\": 137.643, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 137.643, \"end\": 137.723, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 137.723, \"end\": 137.863, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 137.863, \"end\": 137.983, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"遇\", \"start\": 137.983, \"end\": 138.064, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 138.064, \"end\": 138.484, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 138.484, \"end\": 138.624, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 138.624, \"end\": 138.844, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 138.844, \"end\": 139.145, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 139.145, \"end\": 139.305, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 139.305, \"end\": 139.785, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 139.785, \"end\": 140.146, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 140.146, \"end\": 140.286, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 140.286, \"end\": 140.406, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 140.406, \"end\": 140.786, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"封\", \"start\": 140.786, \"end\": 141.367, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"殺\"}, {\"word\": \"李\", \"start\": 141.367, \"end\": 141.567, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 141.567, \"end\": 141.847, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"竹\", \"start\": 141.847, \"end\": 142.007, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 142.007, \"end\": 142.107, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 142.107, \"end\": 142.488, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 142.488, \"end\": 142.668, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 142.668, \"end\": 142.868, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 142.868, \"end\": 142.948, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 142.948, \"end\": 143.168, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"平\", \"start\": 143.168, \"end\": 143.349, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 143.349, \"end\": 143.369, \"score\": 0.919}]}, {\"start\": 144.44, \"end\": 171.144, \"text\": \"因為這是立委的權限啦所以我不太適合發表任何的看法但我只是認為在委員會裡面每一個委員都獨立行使職權所以將來因為你現在代理主委嘛你會主持會議的其他委員如果有意見表達的時候我一定讓他們暢所欲言你會讓暢所欲言每個委員的權利是一樣的但是你會提醒他們嘛對不對那最後的結果是合議制嘛合議來做決定的嘛我覺得這樣子國家制度要這樣建立才會走得長久啦那我可以提醒所有的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 144.44, \"end\": 145.701, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 145.701, \"end\": 146.202, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 146.202, \"end\": 146.362, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 146.362, \"end\": 146.562, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 146.562, \"end\": 147.002, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"限\", \"start\": 147.002, \"end\": 147.202, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 147.202, \"end\": 147.383, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 147.383, \"end\": 147.483, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 147.483, \"end\": 147.563, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 147.563, \"end\": 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\"end\": 535.648, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \"受\", \"start\": 535.648, \"end\": 535.808, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"害\", \"start\": 535.808, \"end\": 536.268, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 536.268, \"end\": 536.348, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 536.348, \"end\": 536.368, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 536.368, \"end\": 536.848, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"諸\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 536.848, \"end\": 536.928, \"score\": 0.563}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 536.928, \"end\": 537.288, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 537.288, \"end\": 537.588, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 537.588, \"end\": 537.948, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"強\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 537.948, \"end\": 538.148, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 538.148, \"end\": 538.488, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 538.488, \"end\": 538.988, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 538.988, \"end\": 539.809, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 539.809, \"end\": 539.969, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"辛\", \"start\": 539.969, \"end\": 540.109, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"苦\", \"start\": 540.109, \"end\": 540.229, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 540.229, \"end\": 540.249, \"score\": 0.602}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,021 --> 00:00:09,905\n我首先請教一下公民會成立30年來有出現過主委嫌缺的狀況嗎\n\n2\n00:00:26,479 --> 00:00:49,324\n過去曾經有過主委提前離職提前離職所以我曾經副主委短暫代理過短暫代理但沒有像這樣子整個懸缺的就是那個不是從一開始就懸缺這是第一次這是第一次啦齁那當時沒有通過的原因其實當時看起來是包括幾位藍白的批評的是因為當時受原來被提名的主委被提名李美\n\n3\n00:00:49,704 --> 00:01:10,945\n他沒有制止洪才龍的一個發言然後沒有制止此事所以導致他也被那個不是他自己出問題是他當主席或什麼沒有制止那這個陳代主委那你現在當主席了如果有委員這是合議制的委員如果要發言的話你要不要制止未來類似像這樣狀況你要不要制止\n\n4\n00:01:11,594 --> 00:01:37,118\n我想我也知道在委員會裡面每個委員獨立行職職權那當然也包含主委副主委所以我們當然有自己的看法所以假設我就如同在之前這個案子如果我覺得這個是不對的或是不妥當的我會發言但是最後的決議還是要委員多數的多數決來決定那我也會尊重委員多數的一個意見所以你不會去制止其他委員的發言嗎他有發言的權利我會提醒\n\n5\n00:01:37,498 --> 00:01:58,685\n就如同在這個案子裡面我會提醒說這個可能有一些跟法律有一點出入的地方那當然最後委員因為不同的委員有不同的評估也許他們不認為有那這個我都尊重每個委員一樣大啦當然主委副主委也是那個但每個委員會就是合一致嘛那當然尊重委員的發言的權益當然會提醒他注意但是\n\n6\n00:01:59,365 --> 00:02:23,369\n沒有權力竹委就一定制止誰一定不能發言嘛對不對不行對那因為這樣的理由就把一個竹委給封殺掉我認為這個太過分啦就是說竹委沒有這樣的權力完全制止一個委員完全不能發言如果不能發言的話那還叫委員會制嗎就失去委員會制所以將來竹委你也會遇到這樣的問題所以我認為其實用這樣的理由來封殺李美竹委我認為其實是不公平的\n\n7\n00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:51,144\n因為這是立委的權限啦所以我不太適合發表任何的看法但我只是認為在委員會裡面每一個委員都獨立行使職權所以將來因為你現在代理主委嘛你會主持會議的其他委員如果有意見表達的時候我一定讓他們暢所欲言你會讓暢所欲言每個委員的權利是一樣的但是你會提醒他們嘛對不對那最後的結果是合議制嘛合議來做決定的嘛我覺得這樣子國家制度要這樣建立才會走得長久啦那我可以提醒所有的\n\n8\n00:02:51,804 --> 00:03:10,102\n提醒所有的立委同事們在處理人事案不應該用這樣的方式來做否決你可以用任何原因去否決他但是用這樣的理由否決他這是亂了國家的制度也亂了一個委員會公平委員會的該有的一個制度我認為這個是不對的我認為這是不對任何人都可能遭遇這個狀況都不應該用這樣的理由去否決他\n\n9\n00:03:11,104 --> 00:03:20,014\n好我第一要講這個第二個是我想要問一下這一次的公民會很多的業務費包括他被刪了526萬被凍結了30%1276萬我問一下主委代理主委這個凍結會不會影響到業務的進行\n\n10\n00:03:29,824 --> 00:03:51,073\n我想應該就是已經影響了就是在調查上比如說同仁出去不管是交通費還是時數這些其實我們都必須要配合因為你的預算凍結你永遠不知道什麼時候解凍嘛對不對你不知道這個位置能不能解凍還是下個月才解凍那如果等到了下個月才解凍的話那你這個位置的錢當然要很省著用了嘛所以你當然不敢操之的用你應該\n\n11\n00:03:52,894 --> 00:04:18,000\n大家都已經是做最壞的打算可能這個凍結最後是不解凍的一定是做最壞的打算思考因為你沒有把握立法院一定聽你們的立法院怎麼可能聽你們的說一定解凍你沒有把握所以你必然尊潔使用所以這必然會影響到就像前面大家所講到的又要公平會全力來做事又要把你的預算整個凍結成這樣子那如果我問一下現在已經實質影響到了對不對\n\n12\n00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:36,212\n就是在業務單位在派同仁出去調查案子這個過程當中我們就必須要重新再調整因為不管是時速交通等等所以這就是影響了嘛對不對對就是會產生影響那如果這個會期沒辦法解凍的話拖到下個月9月之後才做解凍的話會有什麼樣的影響\n\n13\n00:04:37,318 --> 00:05:06,876\n我們當然就是在既有人力盡可能去調配啦但是就是那會不會影響到你們的相關的業務的進行跟調查的各方面的會不會影響到我是比較擔心那個調查還有案件決策的品質就是說如果說調查的人員少然後沒有充分的就是一方面調查的人員能夠派出去的少嘛二方面你要邀請來的可能也會被受到影響那你這樣你的品質就會受到影響甚至很多案件你可能只能就你既有人力去做一些調查就是就\n\n14\n00:05:07,436 --> 00:05:30,920\n瑕疵就會變多啦有可能有這樣的可能啦對所以我認為這個都這個都是應該要盡速的我覺得動這麼多30%動的其實我坦白講我覺得動的太多啦而且恐怕這接下來能解到的方式就是一方面行政院有行政處理方式一方面我可能也要請立法院要盡速來做討論如果不解凍的話形同讓公聘會的功能會失去了一部分的這個功能的運作\n\n15\n00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:51,235\n謝謝委員好謝謝再來我想請教一下現在今天大家也都談到台積電跟Intel這樣的一個關係我先問一下台積電怎麼樣的狀況下因為它如果假如要併購或者是Intel的金融代工部門的話那什麼樣的狀況下會進到公平會來做審查\n\n16\n00:05:52,296 --> 00:06:07,997\n第一個就是我們要觀察他的合作模式如果台積電跟這些美國企業合作模式屬於我們的結合我們公平法的結合定義那以目前台積電的市佔利益那個都很高所以他可能就必須要來跟公平會來申請結合審查再講得更清楚結合是怎麼樣的\n\n17\n00:06:09,962 --> 00:06:37,505\n結合是什麼樣的狀況第十條總共列了五種情形就是譬如說當然收購股權這是一個類型合資也算合資在某些情況下收購主要的資產這個都可能構成結合所以這個都會結合那如果進到結合的話那進到結合就一定要進到公平會來做審查進到結合接下來看的是市佔率跟營業額那因為台積電它的市佔率跟營業額應該都超過都超過所以如果它有剛剛講到的併購或者是合資的話那就要進到公平會來做審查嘛\n\n18\n00:06:38,806 --> 00:06:53,792\n好那公平會會怎麼來審查這件事情一旦進到公平會審查我們當然就會依照這個他們合作的類型是屬於水平競爭者的合作還是有涉及到垂直還是多角化我們有不同的審查的結構會有一些不同的因素跟證據會去收集跟分析啦\n\n19\n00:06:54,301 --> 00:07:16,036\n那些架構都已經在了所以我們有準備了所以公平會員已經做了準備了一旦如果有這樣的狀況發生公平會會善盡你們的職責來做這樣的一個審查那接下來我想講一下時間有限現在很多的傳銷它是用虛擬的貨幣來進行的公平會對這個部分會去加重查很多甚至於涉及到詐騙傳銷這個部分公平會能夠加強來做審查\n\n20\n00:07:16,957 --> 00:07:42,985\n因為我們投影片上所提的這個Pi這個我們有去了解這個是手機上的一個虛擬貨幣挖礦的一個軟體那因為虛擬貨幣本身現在不是法定的貨幣所以它是違法的這個部分不會在我們的傳銷所以不會到你們的傳銷直接違法就對了對對刑法直接刑法直接處理但如果你沒有掌握到直接就送去給法務部說刑法處理如果有這樣的情況我們可能如果有查到你們相關查緝有查到就直接該送就送好嗎\n\n21\n00:07:43,305 --> 00:08:05,632\n如果是屬於這種刑事違法就是依重檢調這份刑事的條例好那再來今天剛剛大家也提到一番賞的部分現在也有很多啦這種的一番賞的這個實體的來抽的這個很多店家詐騙啊甚至作弊平傳的部分這個部分公平會不會做處理嗎太涉及到廣告不實的問題啊對事實上我們處理過之前的唐奇科的那個案子\n\n22\n00:08:06,252 --> 00:08:31,061\n那雖然最後是沒有罰款但是基本上我們是認定他是違法的所以這種一番賞的行為如果他本身是用廣告的方式來呈現那誤導消費者他是有可能在我們這邊使用我還是希望公平化還是要持續的去做查查唯有你不斷的查查之後他們才有壓力去防止這樣的行為的發生好不好這個其實也涉及到廣告不實的啊你明明說裡面有但是事實上最後是沒有的嘛事實上就是廣告不實嘛所以我希望這一塊公平化還是要長\n\n23\n00:08:31,701 --> 00:09:00,249\n最後一個啦現在很多的網紅業配包括團購都是宣傳不實這個部分我看到公平會議已經有開罰了一件了未來會不會持續的加強來查處跟開罰我們當然既然已經有一個前例在那邊我們持續會觀察這類型的手段現在網路的時代越多這種網紅業配包括團購廣告不實會越來越多啦唯有公平會善盡你們的職責的時候才能夠減少受騙減少消費者的受害好不好請諸位要持續加強查查是謝謝委員好謝謝辛苦了謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6021\t9905\t我首先請教一下公民會成立30年來有出現過主委嫌缺的狀況嗎\n26479\t49324\t過去曾經有過主委提前離職提前離職所以我曾經副主委短暫代理過短暫代理但沒有像這樣子整個懸缺的就是那個不是從一開始就懸缺這是第一次這是第一次啦齁那當時沒有通過的原因其實當時看起來是包括幾位藍白的批評的是因為當時受原來被提名的主委被提名李美\n49704\t70945\t他沒有制止洪才龍的一個發言然後沒有制止此事所以導致他也被那個不是他自己出問題是他當主席或什麼沒有制止那這個陳代主委那你現在當主席了如果有委員這是合議制的委員如果要發言的話你要不要制止未來類似像這樣狀況你要不要制止\n71594\t97118\t我想我也知道在委員會裡面每個委員獨立行職職權那當然也包含主委副主委所以我們當然有自己的看法所以假設我就如同在之前這個案子如果我覺得這個是不對的或是不妥當的我會發言但是最後的決議還是要委員多數的多數決來決定那我也會尊重委員多數的一個意見所以你不會去制止其他委員的發言嗎他有發言的權利我會提醒\n97498\t118685\t就如同在這個案子裡面我會提醒說這個可能有一些跟法律有一點出入的地方那當然最後委員因為不同的委員有不同的評估也許他們不認為有那這個我都尊重每個委員一樣大啦當然主委副主委也是那個但每個委員會就是合一致嘛那當然尊重委員的發言的權益當然會提醒他注意但是\n119365\t143369\t沒有權力 竹委就一定制止誰一定不能發言嘛對不對不行對 那因為這樣的理由就把一個竹委給封殺掉我認為這個太過分啦就是說竹委沒有這樣的權力完全制止一個委員完全不能發言如果不能發言的話那還叫委員會制嗎就失去委員會制所以將來竹委你也會遇到這樣的問題所以我認為其實用這樣的理由來封殺李美竹委我認為其實是不公平的\n144440\t171144\t因為這是立委的權限啦所以我不太適合發表任何的看法但我只是認為在委員會裡面每一個委員都獨立行使職權所以將來因為你現在代理主委嘛你會主持會議的其他委員如果有意見表達的時候我一定讓他們暢所欲言你會讓暢所欲言每個委員的權利是一樣的但是你會提醒他們嘛對不對那最後的結果是合議制嘛合議來做決定的嘛我覺得這樣子國家制度要這樣建立才會走得長久啦那我可以提醒所有的\n171804\t190102\t提醒所有的立委同事們在處理人事案不應該用這樣的方式來做否決你可以用任何原因去否決他但是用這樣的理由否決他這是亂了國家的制度也亂了一個委員會公平委員會的該有的一個制度我認為這個是不對的我認為這是不對任何人都可能遭遇這個狀況都不應該用這樣的理由去否決他\n191104\t200014\t好我第一要講這個第二個是我想要問一下這一次的公民會很多的業務費包括他被刪了526萬被凍結了30%1276萬我問一下主委代理主委這個凍結會不會影響到業務的進行\n209824\t231073\t我想應該就是已經影響了就是在調查上比如說同仁出去不管是交通費還是時數這些其實我們都必須要配合因為你的預算凍結你永遠不知道什麼時候解凍嘛對不對你不知道這個位置能不能解凍還是下個月才解凍那如果等到了下個月才解凍的話那你這個位置的錢當然要很省著用了嘛所以你當然不敢操之的用你應該\n232894\t258000\t大家都已經是做最壞的打算可能這個凍結最後是不解凍的一定是做最壞的打算思考因為你沒有把握立法院一定聽你們的立法院怎麼可能聽你們的說一定解凍你沒有把握所以你必然尊潔使用所以這必然會影響到就像前面大家所講到的又要公平會全力來做事又要把你的預算整個凍結成這樣子那如果我問一下現在已經實質影響到了對不對\n259560\t276212\t就是在業務單位在派同仁出去調查案子這個過程當中我們就必須要重新再調整因為不管是時速交通等等所以這就是影響了嘛對不對對就是會產生影響那如果這個會期沒辦法解凍的話拖到下個月9月之後才做解凍的話會有什麼樣的影響\n277318\t306876\t我們當然就是在既有人力盡可能去調配啦但是就是那會不會影響到你們的相關的業務的進行跟調查的各方面的會不會影響到我是比較擔心那個調查還有案件決策的品質就是說如果說調查的人員少然後沒有充分的就是一方面調查的人員能夠派出去的少嘛二方面你要邀請來的可能也會被受到影響那你這樣你的品質就會受到影響甚至很多案件你可能只能就你既有人力去做一些調查就是就\n307436\t330920\t瑕疵就會變多啦有可能有這樣的可能啦對所以我認為這個都這個都是應該要盡速的我覺得動這麼多30%動的其實我坦白講我覺得動的太多啦而且恐怕這接下來能解到的方式就是一方面行政院有行政處理方式一方面我可能也要請立法院要盡速來做討論如果不解凍的話形同讓公聘會的功能會失去了一部分的這個功能的運作\n331800\t351235\t謝謝委員好 謝謝再來我想請教一下現在今天大家也都談到台積電跟Intel這樣的一個關係我先問一下台積電怎麼樣的狀況下因為它如果假如要併購或者是Intel的金融代工部門的話那什麼樣的狀況下會進到公平會來做審查\n352296\t367997\t第一個就是我們要觀察他的合作模式如果台積電跟這些美國企業合作模式屬於我們的結合我們公平法的結合定義那以目前台積電的市佔利益那個都很高所以他可能就必須要來跟公平會來申請結合審查再講得更清楚結合是怎麼樣的\n369962\t397505\t結合是什麼樣的狀況第十條總共列了五種情形就是譬如說當然收購股權這是一個類型合資也算合資在某些情況下收購主要的資產這個都可能構成結合所以這個都會結合那如果進到結合的話那進到結合就一定要進到公平會來做審查進到結合接下來看的是市佔率跟營業額那因為台積電它的市佔率跟營業額應該都超過都超過所以如果它有剛剛講到的併購或者是合資的話那就要進到公平會來做審查嘛\n398806\t413792\t好 那公平會會怎麼來審查這件事情一旦進到公平會審查我們當然就會依照這個他們合作的類型是屬於水平競爭者的合作還是有涉及到垂直還是多角化我們有不同的審查的結構會有一些不同的因素跟證據會去收集跟分析啦\n414301\t436036\t那些架構都已經在了所以我們有準備了所以公平會員已經做了準備了一旦如果有這樣的狀況發生公平會會善盡你們的職責來做這樣的一個審查那接下來我想講一下時間有限現在很多的傳銷它是用虛擬的貨幣來進行的公平會對這個部分會去加重查很多甚至於涉及到詐騙傳銷這個部分公平會能夠加強來做審查\n436957\t462985\t因為我們投影片上所提的這個Pi 這個我們有去了解這個是手機上的一個虛擬貨幣挖礦的一個軟體那因為虛擬貨幣本身現在不是法定的貨幣所以它是違法的 這個部分不會在我們的傳銷所以不會到你們的傳銷 直接違法就對了對對 刑法 直接刑法直接處理但如果你沒有掌握到直接就送去給法務部說刑法處理如果有這樣的情況我們可能如果有查到 你們相關查緝有查到就直接該送就送好嗎\n463305\t485632\t如果是屬於這種刑事違法就是依重檢調這份刑事的條例好那再來今天剛剛大家也提到一番賞的部分現在也有很多啦這種的一番賞的這個實體的來抽的這個很多店家詐騙啊甚至作弊平傳的部分這個部分公平會不會做處理嗎太涉及到廣告不實的問題啊對事實上我們處理過之前的唐奇科的那個案子\n486252\t511061\t那雖然最後是沒有罰款 但是基本上我們是認定他是違法的所以這種一番賞的行為 如果他本身是用廣告的方式來呈現那誤導消費者 他是有可能在我們這邊使用我還是希望公平化還是要持續的去做查查唯有你不斷的查查之後 他們才有壓力去防止這樣的行為的發生好不好這個其實也涉及到廣告不實的啊你明明說裡面有 但是事實上最後是沒有的嘛事實上就是廣告不實嘛所以我希望這一塊公平化還是要長\n511701\t540249\t最後一個啦 現在很多的網紅業配包括團購都是宣傳不實這個部分我看到公平會議已經有開罰了一件了未來會不會持續的加強來查處跟開罰我們當然既然已經有一個前例在那邊我們持續會觀察這類型的手段現在網路的時代越多這種網紅業配包括團購廣告不實會越來越多啦唯有公平會善盡你們的職責的時候才能夠減少受騙 減少消費者的受害好不好 請諸位要持續加強查查是 謝謝委員好 謝謝 辛苦了 謝謝\n","txt":"我首先請教一下公民會成立30年來有出現過主委嫌缺的狀況嗎\n過去曾經有過主委提前離職提前離職所以我曾經副主委短暫代理過短暫代理但沒有像這樣子整個懸缺的就是那個不是從一開始就懸缺這是第一次這是第一次啦齁那當時沒有通過的原因其實當時看起來是包括幾位藍白的批評的是因為當時受原來被提名的主委被提名李美\n他沒有制止洪才龍的一個發言然後沒有制止此事所以導致他也被那個不是他自己出問題是他當主席或什麼沒有制止那這個陳代主委那你現在當主席了如果有委員這是合議制的委員如果要發言的話你要不要制止未來類似像這樣狀況你要不要制止\n我想我也知道在委員會裡面每個委員獨立行職職權那當然也包含主委副主委所以我們當然有自己的看法所以假設我就如同在之前這個案子如果我覺得這個是不對的或是不妥當的我會發言但是最後的決議還是要委員多數的多數決來決定那我也會尊重委員多數的一個意見所以你不會去制止其他委員的發言嗎他有發言的權利我會提醒\n就如同在這個案子裡面我會提醒說這個可能有一些跟法律有一點出入的地方那當然最後委員因為不同的委員有不同的評估也許他們不認為有那這個我都尊重每個委員一樣大啦當然主委副主委也是那個但每個委員會就是合一致嘛那當然尊重委員的發言的權益當然會提醒他注意但是\n沒有權力 竹委就一定制止誰一定不能發言嘛對不對不行對 那因為這樣的理由就把一個竹委給封殺掉我認為這個太過分啦就是說竹委沒有這樣的權力完全制止一個委員完全不能發言如果不能發言的話那還叫委員會制嗎就失去委員會制所以將來竹委你也會遇到這樣的問題所以我認為其實用這樣的理由來封殺李美竹委我認為其實是不公平的\n因為這是立委的權限啦所以我不太適合發表任何的看法但我只是認為在委員會裡面每一個委員都獨立行使職權所以將來因為你現在代理主委嘛你會主持會議的其他委員如果有意見表達的時候我一定讓他們暢所欲言你會讓暢所欲言每個委員的權利是一樣的但是你會提醒他們嘛對不對那最後的結果是合議制嘛合議來做決定的嘛我覺得這樣子國家制度要這樣建立才會走得長久啦那我可以提醒所有的\n提醒所有的立委同事們在處理人事案不應該用這樣的方式來做否決你可以用任何原因去否決他但是用這樣的理由否決他這是亂了國家的制度也亂了一個委員會公平委員會的該有的一個制度我認為這個是不對的我認為這是不對任何人都可能遭遇這個狀況都不應該用這樣的理由去否決他\n好我第一要講這個第二個是我想要問一下這一次的公民會很多的業務費包括他被刪了526萬被凍結了30%1276萬我問一下主委代理主委這個凍結會不會影響到業務的進行\n我想應該就是已經影響了就是在調查上比如說同仁出去不管是交通費還是時數這些其實我們都必須要配合因為你的預算凍結你永遠不知道什麼時候解凍嘛對不對你不知道這個位置能不能解凍還是下個月才解凍那如果等到了下個月才解凍的話那你這個位置的錢當然要很省著用了嘛所以你當然不敢操之的用你應該\n大家都已經是做最壞的打算可能這個凍結最後是不解凍的一定是做最壞的打算思考因為你沒有把握立法院一定聽你們的立法院怎麼可能聽你們的說一定解凍你沒有把握所以你必然尊潔使用所以這必然會影響到就像前面大家所講到的又要公平會全力來做事又要把你的預算整個凍結成這樣子那如果我問一下現在已經實質影響到了對不對\n就是在業務單位在派同仁出去調查案子這個過程當中我們就必須要重新再調整因為不管是時速交通等等所以這就是影響了嘛對不對對就是會產生影響那如果這個會期沒辦法解凍的話拖到下個月9月之後才做解凍的話會有什麼樣的影響\n我們當然就是在既有人力盡可能去調配啦但是就是那會不會影響到你們的相關的業務的進行跟調查的各方面的會不會影響到我是比較擔心那個調查還有案件決策的品質就是說如果說調查的人員少然後沒有充分的就是一方面調查的人員能夠派出去的少嘛二方面你要邀請來的可能也會被受到影響那你這樣你的品質就會受到影響甚至很多案件你可能只能就你既有人力去做一些調查就是就\n瑕疵就會變多啦有可能有這樣的可能啦對所以我認為這個都這個都是應該要盡速的我覺得動這麼多30%動的其實我坦白講我覺得動的太多啦而且恐怕這接下來能解到的方式就是一方面行政院有行政處理方式一方面我可能也要請立法院要盡速來做討論如果不解凍的話形同讓公聘會的功能會失去了一部分的這個功能的運作\n謝謝委員好 謝謝再來我想請教一下現在今天大家也都談到台積電跟Intel這樣的一個關係我先問一下台積電怎麼樣的狀況下因為它如果假如要併購或者是Intel的金融代工部門的話那什麼樣的狀況下會進到公平會來做審查\n第一個就是我們要觀察他的合作模式如果台積電跟這些美國企業合作模式屬於我們的結合我們公平法的結合定義那以目前台積電的市佔利益那個都很高所以他可能就必須要來跟公平會來申請結合審查再講得更清楚結合是怎麼樣的\n結合是什麼樣的狀況第十條總共列了五種情形就是譬如說當然收購股權這是一個類型合資也算合資在某些情況下收購主要的資產這個都可能構成結合所以這個都會結合那如果進到結合的話那進到結合就一定要進到公平會來做審查進到結合接下來看的是市佔率跟營業額那因為台積電它的市佔率跟營業額應該都超過都超過所以如果它有剛剛講到的併購或者是合資的話那就要進到公平會來做審查嘛\n好 那公平會會怎麼來審查這件事情一旦進到公平會審查我們當然就會依照這個他們合作的類型是屬於水平競爭者的合作還是有涉及到垂直還是多角化我們有不同的審查的結構會有一些不同的因素跟證據會去收集跟分析啦\n那些架構都已經在了所以我們有準備了所以公平會員已經做了準備了一旦如果有這樣的狀況發生公平會會善盡你們的職責來做這樣的一個審查那接下來我想講一下時間有限現在很多的傳銷它是用虛擬的貨幣來進行的公平會對這個部分會去加重查很多甚至於涉及到詐騙傳銷這個部分公平會能夠加強來做審查\n因為我們投影片上所提的這個Pi 這個我們有去了解這個是手機上的一個虛擬貨幣挖礦的一個軟體那因為虛擬貨幣本身現在不是法定的貨幣所以它是違法的 這個部分不會在我們的傳銷所以不會到你們的傳銷 直接違法就對了對對 刑法 直接刑法直接處理但如果你沒有掌握到直接就送去給法務部說刑法處理如果有這樣的情況我們可能如果有查到 你們相關查緝有查到就直接該送就送好嗎\n如果是屬於這種刑事違法就是依重檢調這份刑事的條例好那再來今天剛剛大家也提到一番賞的部分現在也有很多啦這種的一番賞的這個實體的來抽的這個很多店家詐騙啊甚至作弊平傳的部分這個部分公平會不會做處理嗎太涉及到廣告不實的問題啊對事實上我們處理過之前的唐奇科的那個案子\n那雖然最後是沒有罰款 但是基本上我們是認定他是違法的所以這種一番賞的行為 如果他本身是用廣告的方式來呈現那誤導消費者 他是有可能在我們這邊使用我還是希望公平化還是要持續的去做查查唯有你不斷的查查之後 他們才有壓力去防止這樣的行為的發生好不好這個其實也涉及到廣告不實的啊你明明說裡面有 但是事實上最後是沒有的嘛事實上就是廣告不實嘛所以我希望這一塊公平化還是要長\n最後一個啦 現在很多的網紅業配包括團購都是宣傳不實這個部分我看到公平會議已經有開罰了一件了未來會不會持續的加強來查處跟開罰我們當然既然已經有一個前例在那邊我們持續會觀察這類型的手段現在網路的時代越多這種網紅業配包括團購廣告不實會越來越多啦唯有公平會善盡你們的職責的時候才能夠減少受騙 減少消費者的受害好不好 請諸位要持續加強查查是 謝謝委員好 謝謝 辛苦了 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.021 --> 00:09.905\n我首先請教一下公民會成立30年來有出現過主委嫌缺的狀況嗎\n\n00:26.479 --> 00:49.324\n過去曾經有過主委提前離職提前離職所以我曾經副主委短暫代理過短暫代理但沒有像這樣子整個懸缺的就是那個不是從一開始就懸缺這是第一次這是第一次啦齁那當時沒有通過的原因其實當時看起來是包括幾位藍白的批評的是因為當時受原來被提名的主委被提名李美\n\n00:49.704 --> 01:10.945\n他沒有制止洪才龍的一個發言然後沒有制止此事所以導致他也被那個不是他自己出問題是他當主席或什麼沒有制止那這個陳代主委那你現在當主席了如果有委員這是合議制的委員如果要發言的話你要不要制止未來類似像這樣狀況你要不要制止\n\n01:11.594 --> 01:37.118\n我想我也知道在委員會裡面每個委員獨立行職職權那當然也包含主委副主委所以我們當然有自己的看法所以假設我就如同在之前這個案子如果我覺得這個是不對的或是不妥當的我會發言但是最後的決議還是要委員多數的多數決來決定那我也會尊重委員多數的一個意見所以你不會去制止其他委員的發言嗎他有發言的權利我會提醒\n\n01:37.498 --> 01:58.685\n就如同在這個案子裡面我會提醒說這個可能有一些跟法律有一點出入的地方那當然最後委員因為不同的委員有不同的評估也許他們不認為有那這個我都尊重每個委員一樣大啦當然主委副主委也是那個但每個委員會就是合一致嘛那當然尊重委員的發言的權益當然會提醒他注意但是\n\n01:59.365 --> 02:23.369\n沒有權力竹委就一定制止誰一定不能發言嘛對不對不行對那因為這樣的理由就把一個竹委給封殺掉我認為這個太過分啦就是說竹委沒有這樣的權力完全制止一個委員完全不能發言如果不能發言的話那還叫委員會制嗎就失去委員會制所以將來竹委你也會遇到這樣的問題所以我認為其實用這樣的理由來封殺李美竹委我認為其實是不公平的\n\n02:24.440 --> 02:51.144\n因為這是立委的權限啦所以我不太適合發表任何的看法但我只是認為在委員會裡面每一個委員都獨立行使職權所以將來因為你現在代理主委嘛你會主持會議的其他委員如果有意見表達的時候我一定讓他們暢所欲言你會讓暢所欲言每個委員的權利是一樣的但是你會提醒他們嘛對不對那最後的結果是合議制嘛合議來做決定的嘛我覺得這樣子國家制度要這樣建立才會走得長久啦那我可以提醒所有的\n\n02:51.804 --> 03:10.102\n提醒所有的立委同事們在處理人事案不應該用這樣的方式來做否決你可以用任何原因去否決他但是用這樣的理由否決他這是亂了國家的制度也亂了一個委員會公平委員會的該有的一個制度我認為這個是不對的我認為這是不對任何人都可能遭遇這個狀況都不應該用這樣的理由去否決他\n\n03:11.104 --> 03:20.014\n好我第一要講這個第二個是我想要問一下這一次的公民會很多的業務費包括他被刪了526萬被凍結了30%1276萬我問一下主委代理主委這個凍結會不會影響到業務的進行\n\n03:29.824 --> 03:51.073\n我想應該就是已經影響了就是在調查上比如說同仁出去不管是交通費還是時數這些其實我們都必須要配合因為你的預算凍結你永遠不知道什麼時候解凍嘛對不對你不知道這個位置能不能解凍還是下個月才解凍那如果等到了下個月才解凍的話那你這個位置的錢當然要很省著用了嘛所以你當然不敢操之的用你應該\n\n03:52.894 --> 04:18.000\n大家都已經是做最壞的打算可能這個凍結最後是不解凍的一定是做最壞的打算思考因為你沒有把握立法院一定聽你們的立法院怎麼可能聽你們的說一定解凍你沒有把握所以你必然尊潔使用所以這必然會影響到就像前面大家所講到的又要公平會全力來做事又要把你的預算整個凍結成這樣子那如果我問一下現在已經實質影響到了對不對\n\n04:19.560 --> 04:36.212\n就是在業務單位在派同仁出去調查案子這個過程當中我們就必須要重新再調整因為不管是時速交通等等所以這就是影響了嘛對不對對就是會產生影響那如果這個會期沒辦法解凍的話拖到下個月9月之後才做解凍的話會有什麼樣的影響\n\n04:37.318 --> 05:06.876\n我們當然就是在既有人力盡可能去調配啦但是就是那會不會影響到你們的相關的業務的進行跟調查的各方面的會不會影響到我是比較擔心那個調查還有案件決策的品質就是說如果說調查的人員少然後沒有充分的就是一方面調查的人員能夠派出去的少嘛二方面你要邀請來的可能也會被受到影響那你這樣你的品質就會受到影響甚至很多案件你可能只能就你既有人力去做一些調查就是就\n\n05:07.436 --> 05:30.920\n瑕疵就會變多啦有可能有這樣的可能啦對所以我認為這個都這個都是應該要盡速的我覺得動這麼多30%動的其實我坦白講我覺得動的太多啦而且恐怕這接下來能解到的方式就是一方面行政院有行政處理方式一方面我可能也要請立法院要盡速來做討論如果不解凍的話形同讓公聘會的功能會失去了一部分的這個功能的運作\n\n05:31.800 --> 05:51.235\n謝謝委員好謝謝再來我想請教一下現在今天大家也都談到台積電跟Intel這樣的一個關係我先問一下台積電怎麼樣的狀況下因為它如果假如要併購或者是Intel的金融代工部門的話那什麼樣的狀況下會進到公平會來做審查\n\n05:52.296 --> 06:07.997\n第一個就是我們要觀察他的合作模式如果台積電跟這些美國企業合作模式屬於我們的結合我們公平法的結合定義那以目前台積電的市佔利益那個都很高所以他可能就必須要來跟公平會來申請結合審查再講得更清楚結合是怎麼樣的\n\n06:09.962 --> 06:37.505\n結合是什麼樣的狀況第十條總共列了五種情形就是譬如說當然收購股權這是一個類型合資也算合資在某些情況下收購主要的資產這個都可能構成結合所以這個都會結合那如果進到結合的話那進到結合就一定要進到公平會來做審查進到結合接下來看的是市佔率跟營業額那因為台積電它的市佔率跟營業額應該都超過都超過所以如果它有剛剛講到的併購或者是合資的話那就要進到公平會來做審查嘛\n\n06:38.806 --> 06:53.792\n好那公平會會怎麼來審查這件事情一旦進到公平會審查我們當然就會依照這個他們合作的類型是屬於水平競爭者的合作還是有涉及到垂直還是多角化我們有不同的審查的結構會有一些不同的因素跟證據會去收集跟分析啦\n\n06:54.301 --> 07:16.036\n那些架構都已經在了所以我們有準備了所以公平會員已經做了準備了一旦如果有這樣的狀況發生公平會會善盡你們的職責來做這樣的一個審查那接下來我想講一下時間有限現在很多的傳銷它是用虛擬的貨幣來進行的公平會對這個部分會去加重查很多甚至於涉及到詐騙傳銷這個部分公平會能夠加強來做審查\n\n07:16.957 --> 07:42.985\n因為我們投影片上所提的這個Pi這個我們有去了解這個是手機上的一個虛擬貨幣挖礦的一個軟體那因為虛擬貨幣本身現在不是法定的貨幣所以它是違法的這個部分不會在我們的傳銷所以不會到你們的傳銷直接違法就對了對對刑法直接刑法直接處理但如果你沒有掌握到直接就送去給法務部說刑法處理如果有這樣的情況我們可能如果有查到你們相關查緝有查到就直接該送就送好嗎\n\n07:43.305 --> 08:05.632\n如果是屬於這種刑事違法就是依重檢調這份刑事的條例好那再來今天剛剛大家也提到一番賞的部分現在也有很多啦這種的一番賞的這個實體的來抽的這個很多店家詐騙啊甚至作弊平傳的部分這個部分公平會不會做處理嗎太涉及到廣告不實的問題啊對事實上我們處理過之前的唐奇科的那個案子\n\n08:06.252 --> 08:31.061\n那雖然最後是沒有罰款但是基本上我們是認定他是違法的所以這種一番賞的行為如果他本身是用廣告的方式來呈現那誤導消費者他是有可能在我們這邊使用我還是希望公平化還是要持續的去做查查唯有你不斷的查查之後他們才有壓力去防止這樣的行為的發生好不好這個其實也涉及到廣告不實的啊你明明說裡面有但是事實上最後是沒有的嘛事實上就是廣告不實嘛所以我希望這一塊公平化還是要長\n\n08:31.701 --> 09:00.249\n最後一個啦現在很多的網紅業配包括團購都是宣傳不實這個部分我看到公平會議已經有開罰了一件了未來會不會持續的加強來查處跟開罰我們當然既然已經有一個前例在那邊我們持續會觀察這類型的手段現在網路的時代越多這種網紅業配包括團購廣告不實會越來越多啦唯有公平會善盡你們的職責的時候才能夠減少受騙減少消費者的受害好不好請諸位要持續加強查查是謝謝委員好謝謝辛苦了謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.021,"end":9.905,"text":"我首先請教一下公民會成立30年來有出現過主委嫌缺的狀況嗎"},{"start":26.479,"end":49.324,"text":"過去曾經有過主委提前離職提前離職所以我曾經副主委短暫代理過短暫代理但沒有像這樣子整個懸缺的就是那個不是從一開始就懸缺這是第一次這是第一次啦齁那當時沒有通過的原因其實當時看起來是包括幾位藍白的批評的是因為當時受原來被提名的主委被提名李美"},{"start":49.704,"end":70.945,"text":"他沒有制止洪才龍的一個發言然後沒有制止此事所以導致他也被那個不是他自己出問題是他當主席或什麼沒有制止那這個陳代主委那你現在當主席了如果有委員這是合議制的委員如果要發言的話你要不要制止未來類似像這樣狀況你要不要制止"},{"start":71.594,"end":97.118,"text":"我想我也知道在委員會裡面每個委員獨立行職職權那當然也包含主委副主委所以我們當然有自己的看法所以假設我就如同在之前這個案子如果我覺得這個是不對的或是不妥當的我會發言但是最後的決議還是要委員多數的多數決來決定那我也會尊重委員多數的一個意見所以你不會去制止其他委員的發言嗎他有發言的權利我會提醒"},{"start":97.498,"end":118.685,"text":"就如同在這個案子裡面我會提醒說這個可能有一些跟法律有一點出入的地方那當然最後委員因為不同的委員有不同的評估也許他們不認為有那這個我都尊重每個委員一樣大啦當然主委副主委也是那個但每個委員會就是合一致嘛那當然尊重委員的發言的權益當然會提醒他注意但是"},{"start":119.365,"end":143.369,"text":"沒有權力 竹委就一定制止誰一定不能發言嘛對不對不行對 那因為這樣的理由就把一個竹委給封殺掉我認為這個太過分啦就是說竹委沒有這樣的權力完全制止一個委員完全不能發言如果不能發言的話那還叫委員會制嗎就失去委員會制所以將來竹委你也會遇到這樣的問題所以我認為其實用這樣的理由來封殺李美竹委我認為其實是不公平的"},{"start":144.44,"end":171.144,"text":"因為這是立委的權限啦所以我不太適合發表任何的看法但我只是認為在委員會裡面每一個委員都獨立行使職權所以將來因為你現在代理主委嘛你會主持會議的其他委員如果有意見表達的時候我一定讓他們暢所欲言你會讓暢所欲言每個委員的權利是一樣的但是你會提醒他們嘛對不對那最後的結果是合議制嘛合議來做決定的嘛我覺得這樣子國家制度要這樣建立才會走得長久啦那我可以提醒所有的"},{"start":171.804,"end":190.102,"text":"提醒所有的立委同事們在處理人事案不應該用這樣的方式來做否決你可以用任何原因去否決他但是用這樣的理由否決他這是亂了國家的制度也亂了一個委員會公平委員會的該有的一個制度我認為這個是不對的我認為這是不對任何人都可能遭遇這個狀況都不應該用這樣的理由去否決他"},{"start":191.104,"end":200.014,"text":"好我第一要講這個第二個是我想要問一下這一次的公民會很多的業務費包括他被刪了526萬被凍結了30%1276萬我問一下主委代理主委這個凍結會不會影響到業務的進行"},{"start":209.824,"end":231.073,"text":"我想應該就是已經影響了就是在調查上比如說同仁出去不管是交通費還是時數這些其實我們都必須要配合因為你的預算凍結你永遠不知道什麼時候解凍嘛對不對你不知道這個位置能不能解凍還是下個月才解凍那如果等到了下個月才解凍的話那你這個位置的錢當然要很省著用了嘛所以你當然不敢操之的用你應該"},{"start":232.894,"end":258,"text":"大家都已經是做最壞的打算可能這個凍結最後是不解凍的一定是做最壞的打算思考因為你沒有把握立法院一定聽你們的立法院怎麼可能聽你們的說一定解凍你沒有把握所以你必然尊潔使用所以這必然會影響到就像前面大家所講到的又要公平會全力來做事又要把你的預算整個凍結成這樣子那如果我問一下現在已經實質影響到了對不對"},{"start":259.56,"end":276.212,"text":"就是在業務單位在派同仁出去調查案子這個過程當中我們就必須要重新再調整因為不管是時速交通等等所以這就是影響了嘛對不對對就是會產生影響那如果這個會期沒辦法解凍的話拖到下個月9月之後才做解凍的話會有什麼樣的影響"},{"start":277.318,"end":306.876,"text":"我們當然就是在既有人力盡可能去調配啦但是就是那會不會影響到你們的相關的業務的進行跟調查的各方面的會不會影響到我是比較擔心那個調查還有案件決策的品質就是說如果說調查的人員少然後沒有充分的就是一方面調查的人員能夠派出去的少嘛二方面你要邀請來的可能也會被受到影響那你這樣你的品質就會受到影響甚至很多案件你可能只能就你既有人力去做一些調查就是就"},{"start":307.436,"end":330.92,"text":"瑕疵就會變多啦有可能有這樣的可能啦對所以我認為這個都這個都是應該要盡速的我覺得動這麼多30%動的其實我坦白講我覺得動的太多啦而且恐怕這接下來能解到的方式就是一方面行政院有行政處理方式一方面我可能也要請立法院要盡速來做討論如果不解凍的話形同讓公聘會的功能會失去了一部分的這個功能的運作"},{"start":331.8,"end":351.235,"text":"謝謝委員好 謝謝再來我想請教一下現在今天大家也都談到台積電跟Intel這樣的一個關係我先問一下台積電怎麼樣的狀況下因為它如果假如要併購或者是Intel的金融代工部門的話那什麼樣的狀況下會進到公平會來做審查"},{"start":352.296,"end":367.997,"text":"第一個就是我們要觀察他的合作模式如果台積電跟這些美國企業合作模式屬於我們的結合我們公平法的結合定義那以目前台積電的市佔利益那個都很高所以他可能就必須要來跟公平會來申請結合審查再講得更清楚結合是怎麼樣的"},{"start":369.962,"end":397.505,"text":"結合是什麼樣的狀況第十條總共列了五種情形就是譬如說當然收購股權這是一個類型合資也算合資在某些情況下收購主要的資產這個都可能構成結合所以這個都會結合那如果進到結合的話那進到結合就一定要進到公平會來做審查進到結合接下來看的是市佔率跟營業額那因為台積電它的市佔率跟營業額應該都超過都超過所以如果它有剛剛講到的併購或者是合資的話那就要進到公平會來做審查嘛"},{"start":398.806,"end":413.792,"text":"好 那公平會會怎麼來審查這件事情一旦進到公平會審查我們當然就會依照這個他們合作的類型是屬於水平競爭者的合作還是有涉及到垂直還是多角化我們有不同的審查的結構會有一些不同的因素跟證據會去收集跟分析啦"},{"start":414.301,"end":436.036,"text":"那些架構都已經在了所以我們有準備了所以公平會員已經做了準備了一旦如果有這樣的狀況發生公平會會善盡你們的職責來做這樣的一個審查那接下來我想講一下時間有限現在很多的傳銷它是用虛擬的貨幣來進行的公平會對這個部分會去加重查很多甚至於涉及到詐騙傳銷這個部分公平會能夠加強來做審查"},{"start":436.957,"end":462.985,"text":"因為我們投影片上所提的這個Pi 這個我們有去了解這個是手機上的一個虛擬貨幣挖礦的一個軟體那因為虛擬貨幣本身現在不是法定的貨幣所以它是違法的 這個部分不會在我們的傳銷所以不會到你們的傳銷 直接違法就對了對對 刑法 直接刑法直接處理但如果你沒有掌握到直接就送去給法務部說刑法處理如果有這樣的情況我們可能如果有查到 你們相關查緝有查到就直接該送就送好嗎"},{"start":463.305,"end":485.632,"text":"如果是屬於這種刑事違法就是依重檢調這份刑事的條例好那再來今天剛剛大家也提到一番賞的部分現在也有很多啦這種的一番賞的這個實體的來抽的這個很多店家詐騙啊甚至作弊平傳的部分這個部分公平會不會做處理嗎太涉及到廣告不實的問題啊對事實上我們處理過之前的唐奇科的那個案子"},{"start":486.252,"end":511.061,"text":"那雖然最後是沒有罰款 但是基本上我們是認定他是違法的所以這種一番賞的行為 如果他本身是用廣告的方式來呈現那誤導消費者 他是有可能在我們這邊使用我還是希望公平化還是要持續的去做查查唯有你不斷的查查之後 他們才有壓力去防止這樣的行為的發生好不好這個其實也涉及到廣告不實的啊你明明說裡面有 但是事實上最後是沒有的嘛事實上就是廣告不實嘛所以我希望這一塊公平化還是要長"},{"start":511.701,"end":540.249,"text":"最後一個啦 現在很多的網紅業配包括團購都是宣傳不實這個部分我看到公平會議已經有開罰了一件了未來會不會持續的加強來查處跟開罰我們當然既然已經有一個前例在那邊我們持續會觀察這類型的手段現在網路的時代越多這種網紅業配包括團購廣告不實會越來越多啦唯有公平會善盡你們的職責的時候才能夠減少受騙 減少消費者的受害好不好 請諸位要持續加強查查是 謝謝委員好 謝謝 辛苦了 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":671,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（11時31分）謝謝主席，請陳代理主委。"],["主席：請陳代理主委。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委辛苦了，我首先請教一下，公平會成立30年來有出現過主委懸缺的狀況嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：過去曾經有過主委提前離職，所以曾經有副主委短暫代理過。"],["賴委員瑞隆：有提前離職短暫代理，但沒有像這樣子整個懸缺的，那是因為不同？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：不是，那個不是從一開始就懸缺，這是第一次。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這是第一次？當時沒有通過的原因其實看起來是包括幾位藍白的……批評的是因為原來主委被提名人李鎂沒有制止洪財隆的發言，沒有制止此事，所以導致他也被那個了，並不是他自己出問題，而是他當主席沒有制止。陳代主委你現在當主席了，這是合議制的，委員如果要發言，你要不要制止？未來類似像這樣的狀況，你要不要制止？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我想委員也知道在委員會議裡面每個委員獨立行使職權，當然也包含主委、副主委，所以我們當然有自己的看法，假設我就如同之前這個案子，如果我覺得這個是不對的或是不妥當的，我會發言，但是最後的決議還是要委員多數決來決定，我也會尊重委員多數的意見。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以你不會去制止其他委員的發言，他有發言的權利嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我會提醒，就如同在這個案子裡面，我會提醒這個可能有一些跟法律有一點出入的地方，當然最後因為不同委員有不同的評估，也許他們不認為有，這個我都尊重。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，就是每個委員一樣大啦！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：當然主委、副主委也是，但委員會就是合議制，當然尊重委員發言的權利，會提醒他注意，但是主委沒有權利制止誰一定不能發言，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：嗯，不行。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，因為這樣的理由就把一個主委給封殺掉，我認為這個太過分了，就是說主委沒有這樣的權利制止一個委員完全不能發言，如果不能發言的話還叫委員會制嗎？那就失去了委員會制。所以將來主委你也會遇到這樣問題，我認為其實用這樣的理由來封殺李鎂主委是不公平的，你認同這樣的看法嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：因為這是立委的權限，所以我不太適合發表任何的看法，但我只是認為在委員會裡面每一個委員都獨立行使職權。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，因為你現在代理主委，將來你也會主持會議，其他委員如果有意見表達的時候……"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我一定讓他們暢所欲言。"],["賴委員瑞隆：你會讓他們暢所欲言，每個委員的權利是一樣的，但是你會提醒他們，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：最後的結果是合議制，是合議來作決定的，我覺得國家制度要這樣建立才會走得長久啦！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對，這是我一直的看法。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們也提醒所有的立委同事們在處理人事案不應該用這樣的方式來做否決，你可以用任何原因去否決他，但是用這樣的理由否決他是亂了國家的制度，也亂了公平委員會該有的制度，我認為這是不對的，任何人都可能遭遇這個狀況，都不應該用這樣的理由去否決他。這是我第一個要講的。","第二個我想要問一下，這一次公平會很多的業務費包括被刪了526萬、被凍結了30%計1,276萬，我問一下代理主委，這個凍結會不會影響到業務的進行？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我想應該就是已經影響了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：已經影響了嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：就是在調查上譬如同仁出去，不管是交通費還是食宿，這些其實我們都必須要配合的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為你的預算被凍結，你永遠不知道什麼時候解凍，對不對？你不知道這個會期能不能解凍，還是下個會期才解凍，如果等到了下個會期才解凍的話，那你這個會期的錢要很省著用了，所以你當然不敢超支的用，應該大家都一定做最壞的打算，可能這個凍結最後是不解凍的，一定是做最壞的打算思考，因為你沒有把握立法院一定聽你們的，立法院怎麼可能聽你們的一定解凍？你沒有把握嘛！所以你必然撙節使用。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這必然會影響到，那就像前面大家所講到的，又要公平會全力來做事、又要把你的預算整個凍結成這樣子。我問一下，現在已經實質影響到了對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：就是業務單位在派同仁出去調查案子的這個過程當中，我們就必須要重新再調整，因為不管是食宿、交通等等……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這就是影響了嘛，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對，就是會產生影響。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果這個會期沒辦法解凍，拖到下個會期9月之後才做解凍的話，會有什麼樣的影響？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們當然就是在既有人力盡可能去調配，但是就是……"],["賴委員瑞隆：那會不會影響到你們相關業務的進行跟調查各方面？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我是比較擔心那個調查還有案件決策的品質，就是如果調查的人員少，然後沒有充分的時間……"],["賴委員瑞隆：就是一方面調查人員能夠派出去的少，二方面你邀請來的可能費用會受到影響。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是，辦理各種宣導。"],["賴委員瑞隆：那這樣你的品質就會受到影響，甚至很多案件你可能只能就你既有的人力去做一些調查，就是瑕疵會變多啦！有可能……"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是，有這樣的可能。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我認為這個都是應該要儘速的，我覺得凍這麼多，30%其實坦白講我覺得凍得太多了，而且恐怕接下來能解套的方式就是一方面行政院有行政院處理方式，一方面我可能也要請立法院儘速來做討論，如果不解凍的話，形同會讓公平會失去一部分的功能運作。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：謝謝委員。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝。再來我想請教一下，今天大家也都談到台積電跟Intel這樣的一個關係，我先問一下，台積電在怎麼樣的狀況下……因為它如果要併購Intel的晶圓代工部門的話，在什麼樣的狀況下會進到公平會來做審查？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：第一個就是我們要觀察它的合作模式，如果台積電跟這些美國企業合作模式屬於我們公平法的結合定義，以目前台積電的市占率、營業額都很高，所以它可能就必須要來跟公平會申請結合審查。"],["賴委員瑞隆：請再講得更清楚，結合是什麼樣的狀況？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：第十條總共列了五種情形，譬如收購股權當然是一個類型、合資在某一種情況下也算、收購主要的資產，這個都可能構成結合。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這個都算結合，如果進到結合的話就一定要進到公平會來做審查嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：進到結合接下來看的是市占率跟營業額，那因為台積電的規模……"],["賴委員瑞隆：它的市占率跟營業額應該都超過吧？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：都超過了，所以它……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以如果它有剛剛講到的併購或者是合資的話，就要進到公平會來做審查嘛。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：那公平會會怎麼來審查這件事情？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：一旦進到公平會審查，我們當然就會依照他們合作的類型是屬於水平競爭者的合作、還是有涉及到垂直、還是多角化，我們有不同的審查結構，會有一些不同的因素跟證據會去蒐集跟分析，那些架構都已經在了，所以我們有準備了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，所以公平會已經做了準備了？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們有在瞭解跟準備。"],["賴委員瑞隆：一旦如果有這樣的狀況發生，公平會要善盡你們的職責來做這樣的一個審查。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好。因為時間有限，接下來我想請教，現在很多的傳銷是用虛擬貨幣來進行的，公平會對這個部分會去加重查嗎？很多甚至於涉及到詐騙、傳銷，這個部分公平會能夠加強來做審查嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：委員投影片上所提的Pi，這個我們有去了解，這個是手機上的一個虛擬貨幣挖礦的一個軟體，因為虛擬貨幣本身現在不是法定的貨幣，所以他是違法，這個部分不會在我們的傳銷……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以不會到你們的傳銷？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：不會。"],["賴委員瑞隆：直接就違法就對了？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對，那就是刑法……"],["賴委員瑞隆：刑法直接就處理？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：但如果你們有掌握到，直接就送去給法務部做刑法處理……"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是，如果有這樣的情況我們可能會……"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果你們相關的查緝有查到，就直接該送就送好嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：如果是屬於這種刑事違法，就是移送檢調刑事調查。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來，剛剛大家提到一番賞的部分現在也很多，這種一番賞實體來抽的有很多店家詐騙甚至作弊頻傳的部分，這個部分公平會不會做處理嗎？他也涉及到廣告不實的問題。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對，事實上我們處理過之前唐吉訶德那個案子，雖然最後沒有罰鍰，但是基本上我們認定它是違法的，所以這種一番賞的行為如果它本身是用廣告的方式來呈現，誤導消費者，它是有可能在我們……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我還是希望公平會要持續去做查察，唯有你不斷的查察，他們才有壓力，能去防止這樣的行為發生，好不好？因為這個其實也涉及到廣告不實，你明明說裡面有，但是事實上最後是沒有，事實上就是廣告不實嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我希望這塊公平會還是要查。","最後一個，現在很多的網紅業配、包括團購都是宣傳不實，這個部分我看到公平會已經有開罰1件，未來會不會持續的加強裁處跟開罰？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：當然既然已經有一個前例在那邊，我們會持續觀察這些類型的手段。"],["賴委員瑞隆：現在網路的時代越多，這種網紅業配、包括團購廣告不實會越來越多，唯有公平會善盡你們職責的時候才能夠減少受騙、減少消費者的受害，好不好？請主委要持續加強查察。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝，辛苦了！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員。","下一位請蘇巧慧委員、蘇巧慧委員、蘇巧慧委員不在場。","麻煩張嘉郡委員代理主席。"],["主席（張委員嘉郡代）：我們請蔡易餘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-2","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳超明","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","陳培瑜"],"page_start":121,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請公平交易委員會代理主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00003"}}}