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\"所以我們是完全符合相關的規定他離校了之後我們還繼續去追復他一年這個追蹤一年的很多成效我覺得我們一定還有很多實質內容可以討論那另外我也想問我們如何確保矯正學校裡面所教的內容其實是符合孩子們的需求因為我知道這幾年大家在討論角效的時候除了有所謂我們對於原本教育的想像我們更希望引進多元的資源給這些孩子\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 615.871, \"end\": 616.011, \"score\": 0.74}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 616.011, \"end\": 616.151, \"score\": 0.637}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 616.151, \"end\": 616.612, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 616.612, \"end\": 616.752, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 616.752, \"end\": 616.932, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 616.932, \"end\": 617.132, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"符\", \"start\": 617.132, \"end\": 617.212, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 617.212, \"end\": 617.332, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 617.332, \"end\": 617.492, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 617.492, \"end\": 617.713, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 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\"start\": 707.353, \"end\": 707.393, \"score\": 0.248}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 707.393, \"end\": 707.413, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 707.413, \"end\": 707.493, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 707.493, \"end\": 707.513, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,063 --> 00:00:31,132\n好謝謝主席那有請次長麻煩次長我先好好次長好我的投影片先好次長我想這個創意私房事件的事情跟相關新聞進度你應該有所追蹤但是我想要提醒次長我們發現在實務上有一些問題可能是接下來我們要共同面對跟溝通跟解決的\n\n2\n00:00:31,912 --> 00:00:59,309\n在相關的報道章當中呢檢察官陳祥威檢察官他在接受訪問的時候說現行的法院下一章對於刑事訴訟法當中規定的管轄權通常是以犯罪地點來認定可是實務上的困境就是雖然檢察官知道被害人位於台中可是陳偉祥檢察官他跟台中地院申請羈押的時候台中地方法院認為行為人持有影片的時候是在新北所以台中沒有管轄權\n\n3\n00:01:00,109 --> 00:01:18,015\n那他就必須要移請新北檢察官來申請羈押實務上有這個困境我相信不是只有這個案例那我不知道次長你覺得我們在這一類的案件上可不可以有機會放寬漸減各位報告我們現在管轄的規定是按照被告的犯罪地住所地跟居所地\n\n4\n00:01:18,855 --> 00:01:40,529\n那駐守區居酒隊相對的這個明確那犯罪地上事實上它包括行為地跟結果地不是單純的只有一個行為地而且行為地的概念行為的概念不是單一的概念行為也起一個延續性的概念在一些延續性的犯罪它的行為地也起一個有數個更何況我們刑法上所謂的結果地所謂的行為地呢犯罪地還包括結果地\n\n5\n00:01:40,709 --> 00:01:59,341\n是沒錯也就是說有這麼多複雜的狀況但是實務上我們可以怎麼樣讓相關的基層人員在相關調查的過程當中工作的過程當中可以更有效率因為我覺得他們在調查這一次的案件的時候他們已經提出這個實務上的困境那我相信這位檢察官他絕對知道您所剛講的那些\n\n6\n00:02:00,081 --> 00:02:21,294\n這涉及到另外一個實務上的見解就是我們在網路上到各地在上網瀏覽這個相關的性行為它的所在地上網這個地方是不是所謂的犯罪地這實務上實際上是正反兩個見解嘛那有些人認為是我在哪裡上網它就是一個行為地但是有些法院認為就等於我們管轄權就\n\n7\n00:02:22,415 --> 00:02:38,846\n沒有規範的因為到處上網到處都有管轄全世界都可以管轄所以有些法律的見解認為這個結果低害財股比較限縮所以看起來沒關係那次長因為時間有限看起來您的見解呢我可以明白可是我相信在實務上檢察官在第一線辦案的辛苦你一定也很清楚\n\n8\n00:02:39,446 --> 00:03:05,593\n所以我想後續一定是得開啟更多的討論那是不是我今天就在這裡先提出問題我們後續想辦法來關心跟去請請第一線的聲音好不好好沒問題好我就先提出這個建議喔那接下來在相關的報導當中呢這個檢察官再次提醒我覺得這個事情就比較容易可以解決他說呢在刑事訴訟法101條之一當中因為被告如果我們懷疑他有反覆實行犯刑之餘而得羈押的要件在相關的法條當中\n\n9\n00:03:06,713 --> 00:03:24,458\n目前為止並沒有把兒少性剝削防治條例的犯罪納入範圍但是我個人認為兒少性影片相關這些人製造者散播者或者是去在民間在網路上拐騙很多兒少的這些人他們\n\n10\n00:03:25,138 --> 00:03:39,483\n當然絕對有高度可能反覆犯案的疑慮不是嗎那我當然知道在之前的刑事訴訟法101條之一當中沒有寫到這個部分但是我認為網路犯罪形態跟過往的犯罪形態已經很不一樣了是不是我們這個時候應該來啟動這個討論\n\n11\n00:03:41,624 --> 00:04:00,613\n好跟委員報告的確我們如果我們羈押有兩種可能性如果委員剛提的一防性羈押的確他必須要法條101之一所列舉的犯罪才有可能但這個因為這個法條已經擺很久了沒有修正了那現在新興的很多新興的犯罪產生這條犯罪的確有可以檢討有些犯罪的確有反覆實施的可能性\n\n12\n00:04:01,433 --> 00:04:30,289\n這個檢討我知道你們也很忙我們可不可以有一個時間感我們共同來促進這件事情就是說我們羈押除了這個預防性羈押還有我們100條的普通羈押就是說它有串供啊或相關的這個逃亡的事實它也有可能符合羈押要件並不是說一定要把它擺在101-1的預防性羈押才可以羈押它其實有不同的羈押啦當然委員提的沒有錯預防性羈押這個犯罪的罪名的確需要檢討要不然它跟不上我們現在立法院訂的很多新新的法律嘛它跟不上\n\n13\n00:04:30,889 --> 00:04:57,950\n因為他才列舉立法就有這個缺毀好沒問題但是我也非常聽到次長剛非常正向的回應就是你也認為確實一他很久沒有討論沒有修了那確實與時俱進的情況下站在保護兒少我們國家宣誓要積極保護兒少的情況下我認為我們共同來面對這個難題好不好各位報告當然這部分法律它是司法院主管的法規我們當然會跟司法院反映委員剛才所提的這個事務上的問題沒有問題喔那我想我們可以積極地做更多的事情來下一張\n\n14\n00:04:58,931 --> 00:05:20,922\n嗯好我們直接來看矯正學校的業務喔相關的那個性影像犯罪的部分我們之後積極來討論矯正學校其實也是歸法務部的矯正署所主管喔其實在四年前有監察院相關的報告甚至到今年的一月份監察院又提出相關的糾正案那我想要跟次長說明為什麼我今天在第一次司法法治委會我就要關心少年矯正學校事實上我之前在\n\n15\n00:05:21,682 --> 00:05:37,123\n教育化委員會的時候我們因著修特教法我們發現有大量適應體育要求適應體育需求的學生或者是有許多特教特職的孩子或者是我們在修學輔法的過程當中發現兒少身心健康的需求不會只落在一般的國民中小學\n\n16\n00:05:37,523 --> 00:06:00,583\n或高中他其實在少角學校有大量的需求而且這幾年孩子們原生家庭的狀態社區環境的狀態網路生活的狀態越趨複雜導致於孩子們最後進入角校的時候其實身上是千瘡百孔帶著非常多身心健康的議題甚至他原來有的特教特職沒有被發現所以他進入少角學校之後校長很頭痛行政人員很頭痛特教老師很頭痛輔導老師很頭痛行政人員很頭痛也就是說\n\n17\n00:06:05,047 --> 00:06:28,382\n當這些孩子複雜的樣態最後進到矯正學校大家共同有能力看見大家有意識想要共同解決的時候我們相關矯正署的資源跟國教署的對接有沒有服務到位有沒有讓這些在幫助我們的孩子大人們他們覺得有受到行政系統的支持所以他們有能量有意願有能力去服務現場的孩子我想這個部分的議題很大我今天就是先切一個簡單的要點好來下一張\n\n18\n00:06:31,738 --> 00:06:50,950\n之前莊惠雄委員提醒過這件事情我就先跟次長您說明一下目前四所矯正學校人員的流動率是如何其實我們並不清楚可是流動率的穩定其實就取決於這個現場的行政資源系統有沒有健全老師們行政人員有沒有覺得自己是有能量繼續服務我們的孩子還有\n\n19\n00:06:51,810 --> 00:07:18,456\n新進人員他們其實也需要相關增能的訓練跟後續的行政支持還有一旦到職之後他們開始服務孩子他們所遇到的困難向上呈報的時候有沒有被支持為什麼會說這麼仔細花這麼多時間我事實上之前在一整去年一整年當中我自己花了很多力去去參加相關的民間的研討會我自己就是學員我身在其中我聽到很多少角校的心理師老師行政人員校甚至校長告訴我們他們的困境所以我這邊\n\n20\n00:07:19,256 --> 00:07:37,817\n今天第一次的司法今天的質詢我想要告訴次長後續我會在這個議題上多所關注我真的很希望我們一起努力推進改革現場的很多狀態老師心理師社工師學校行政人員他們的穩定他們的被支持才能夠服務到我們的孩子這個部分可不可以請次長簡單回應一下\n\n21\n00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:53,995\n這絕對是我們法國部矯正追求的目標事實上我們矯正署的四個矯正學校我們都邊有專有的這個特教人員輔導人員新設人力這都有專專而且他是專屬的人力這部分也是我們一直在意因為我知道都有\n\n22\n00:07:54,295 --> 00:08:19,380\n我知道都有那我相信還有很多現場的困境需要我們共同來面對好不好當然還協同國教署好那最後要講一個是關於少角校還有關務所的處遇實施條例在你們今天的業務報告裡面你們提出有相關修法的可能你們已經嚴寧出這個處遇實施條例我想要問一下目前的進度跟委員報告這兩個條例我們目前都送到行政院審查都已經送到行政院了好那可不可以先提供給我們辦公室\n\n23\n00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,102\n我想我談了這麼多少角色的議題或者是剛剛關於那個性侵而上性剝削影像的問題其實他都有跨部會的難題\n\n24\n00:08:39,474 --> 00:09:01,202\n他都有跨部會要討還有跨相關法規所以我相信在整個盤點上會花很大的力氣跟時間所以我想要聽一下次長在我剛剛不管講的是影像的部分或者是後續的討論還有少角色的部分我們到底有哪些切入的重點你覺得你可以在這邊做一個宣示做一個討論讓我們更加放心這個議題我們往下走的方向會是一致的\n\n25\n00:09:02,958 --> 00:09:27,686\n少角校的學員他有雙重身份他當然是犯錯的人但他還是個學生受年齡的學生所以基本上我們對待他也是參照我們教育部所頒的相關的通則來當作學生來處理相關的課綱我們也比照教育部所規範來處理所以我們在整個修法過程當中我們都希望參照教育部所規範跟我們一般的學生做等同的處理\n\n26\n00:09:28,206 --> 00:09:47,603\n但是校長教授畢竟他有另外身份學生他有另外身份他是一個有經過改化教育的一個學生所以怎麼樣中間取得平衡對我們來講其實管教跟教育本身我們要抓一個平衡來講我們希望透過我們剛剛送到行政院這兩個條例我們做一個平衡立法上做一個平衡\n\n27\n00:09:48,303 --> 00:10:15,231\n我可不可以問一下那目前我們遇到一個困境這個也是我們在實際的現場上聽到的聲音矯正學生的留在矯校的時間或長或短每一個人的狀態不一樣來來去去對不對那他們離校之後如果他們還是未成年他們必須要回到社區的學校系統當中目前這個部分的界階跟社區的界階跟國家組在內的界階我們在他離校前三個月我們當然會進行相關的轉嫌嘛轉嫌完之後我們也按照相關規定我們去追撫而且要追撫到一年\n\n28\n00:10:15,871 --> 00:10:39,552\n所以我們是完全符合相關的規定他離校了之後我們還繼續去追復他一年這個追蹤一年的很多成效我覺得我們一定還有很多實質內容可以討論那另外我也想問我們如何確保矯正學校裡面所教的內容其實是符合孩子們的需求因為我知道這幾年大家在討論角效的時候除了有所謂我們對於原本教育的想像我們更希望引進多元的資源給這些孩子\n\n29\n00:10:39,872 --> 00:10:54,640\n可是當我們引進這些資源跟原來的學校課程做搭配還要搭配他們原本很多行政的流程會不會其實也間接造成現場人員的負擔造成孩子的負擔還有就是當孩子的犯罪型態這麼多元孩子的原生家庭的生命經驗如此複雜的時候\n\n30\n00:10:55,640 --> 00:11:12,846\n我們要怎麼能夠確保我們能夠提供給這些孩子不管是您剛剛說的學術型的教育一般型的教育或者是感化型管教型的教育真的可以幫助到這個孩子因為我們在想像的是他走出少角校之後他回到學校他有一天會成年我們都希望他回到成人監獄的機會越來越低\n\n31\n00:11:14,546 --> 00:11:35,821\n而這個數字是往下降我覺得這才是最美好的願景甚至孩子們在離開腳校之後他會相信這個世界這個社會是願意接納他的那我也想要拜託次長我們在後續的很多議題上不管是學校的課程內容或者是我剛剛說的我們成人這個部分的工作行政的支持整個後援系統的支持還有在學校裡面的課程這些事情我認為我們都有很多\n\n32\n00:11:36,321 --> 00:11:47,513\n還需要密切的討論好嗎好謝謝萬成贊成不好意思剛剛這麼多同仁跑出來你們需要補充回答嗎還是我們其實今天就是做一個開始然後後續我們會有非常多細節需要討論好謝謝委員好謝謝市長謝謝各位\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7063\t31132\t好 謝謝主席 那有請次長麻煩次長我先好好 次長好 我的投影片先好 次長我想這個創意私房事件的事情跟相關新聞進度你應該有所追蹤但是我想要提醒次長我們發現在實務上有一些問題可能是接下來我們要共同面對跟溝通跟解決的\n31912\t59309\t在相關的報道章當中呢檢察官陳祥威檢察官他在接受訪問的時候說現行的法院下一章對於刑事訴訟法當中規定的管轄權通常是以犯罪地點來認定可是實務上的困境就是雖然檢察官知道被害人位於台中可是陳偉祥檢察官他跟台中地院申請羈押的時候台中地方法院認為行為人持有影片的時候是在新北所以台中沒有管轄權\n60109\t78015\t那他就必須要移請新北檢察官來申請羈押實務上有這個困境我相信不是只有這個案例那我不知道次長你覺得我們在這一類的案件上可不可以有機會放寬漸減各位報告我們現在管轄的規定是按照被告的犯罪地住所地跟居所地\n78855\t100529\t那駐守區居酒隊相對的這個明確那犯罪地上事實上它包括行為地跟結果地不是單純的只有一個行為地而且行為地的概念行為的概念不是單一的概念行為也起一個延續性的概念在一些延續性的犯罪它的行為地也起一個有數個更何況我們刑法上所謂的結果地所謂的行為地呢犯罪地還包括結果地\n100709\t119341\t是沒錯也就是說有這麼多複雜的狀況但是實務上我們可以怎麼樣讓相關的基層人員在相關調查的過程當中工作的過程當中可以更有效率因為我覺得他們在調查這一次的案件的時候他們已經提出這個實務上的困境那我相信這位檢察官他絕對知道您所剛講的那些\n120081\t141294\t這涉及到另外一個實務上的見解就是我們在網路上到各地在上網瀏覽這個相關的性行為它的所在地上網這個地方是不是所謂的犯罪地這實務上實際上是正反兩個見解嘛那有些人認為是我在哪裡上網它就是一個行為地但是有些法院認為就等於我們管轄權就\n142415\t158846\t沒有規範的 因為到處上網 到處都有管轄 全世界都可以管轄所以有些法律的見解 認為這個結果低害財股比較限縮所以看起來 沒關係 那次長因為時間有限 看起來您的見解呢我可以明白 可是我相信在實務上 檢察官在第一線辦案的辛苦 你一定也很清楚\n159446\t185593\t所以我想後續一定是得開啟更多的討論那是不是我今天就在這裡先提出問題我們後續想辦法來關心跟去請請第一線的聲音好不好好沒問題好我就先提出這個建議喔那接下來在相關的報導當中呢這個檢察官再次提醒我覺得這個事情就比較容易可以解決他說呢在刑事訴訟法101條之一當中因為被告如果我們懷疑他有反覆實行犯刑之餘而得羈押的要件在相關的法條當中\n186713\t204458\t目前為止並沒有把兒少性剝削防治條例的犯罪納入範圍但是我個人認為兒少性影片相關這些人製造者散播者或者是去在民間在網路上拐騙很多兒少的這些人他們\n205138\t219483\t當然絕對有高度可能反覆犯案的疑慮不是嗎那我當然知道在之前的刑事訴訟法101條之一當中沒有寫到這個部分但是我認為網路犯罪形態跟過往的犯罪形態已經很不一樣了是不是我們這個時候應該來啟動這個討論\n221624\t240613\t好跟委員報告的確我們如果我們羈押有兩種可能性如果委員剛提的一防性羈押的確他必須要法條101之一所列舉的犯罪才有可能但這個因為這個法條已經擺很久了沒有修正了那現在新興的很多新興的犯罪產生這條犯罪的確有可以檢討有些犯罪的確有反覆實施的可能性\n241433\t270289\t這個檢討我知道你們也很忙我們可不可以有一個時間感我們共同來促進這件事情就是說我們羈押除了這個預防性羈押還有我們100條的普通羈押就是說它有串供啊或相關的這個逃亡的事實它也有可能符合羈押要件並不是說一定要把它擺在101-1的預防性羈押才可以羈押它其實有不同的羈押啦當然委員提的沒有錯預防性羈押這個犯罪的罪名的確需要檢討要不然它跟不上我們現在立法院訂的很多新新的法律嘛它跟不上\n270889\t297950\t因為他才列舉立法就有這個缺毀好沒問題但是我也非常聽到次長剛非常正向的回應就是你也認為確實一他很久沒有討論沒有修了那確實與時俱進的情況下站在保護兒少我們國家宣誓要積極保護兒少的情況下我認為我們共同來面對這個難題好不好各位報告當然這部分法律它是司法院主管的法規我們當然會跟司法院反映委員剛才所提的這個事務上的問題沒有問題喔那我想我們可以積極地做更多的事情來下一張\n298931\t320922\t嗯 好 我們直接來看矯正學校的業務喔相關的那個性影像犯罪的部分我們之後積極來討論矯正學校其實也是歸法務部的矯正署所主管喔其實在四年前有監察院相關的報告甚至到今年的一月份監察院又提出相關的糾正案那我想要跟次長說明為什麼我今天在第一次司法法治委會我就要關心少年矯正學校事實上我之前在\n321682\t337123\t教育化委員會的時候我們因著修特教法我們發現有大量適應體育要求適應體育需求的學生或者是有許多特教特職的孩子或者是我們在修學輔法的過程當中發現兒少身心健康的需求不會只落在一般的國民中小學\n337523\t360583\t或高中他其實在少角學校有大量的需求而且這幾年孩子們原生家庭的狀態社區環境的狀態網路生活的狀態越趨複雜導致於孩子們最後進入角校的時候其實身上是千瘡百孔帶著非常多身心健康的議題甚至他原來有的特教特職沒有被發現所以他進入少角學校之後校長很頭痛行政人員很頭痛特教老師很頭痛輔導老師很頭痛行政人員很頭痛也就是說\n365047\t388382\t當這些孩子複雜的樣態最後進到矯正學校大家共同有能力看見大家有意識想要共同解決的時候我們相關矯正署的資源跟國教署的對接有沒有服務到位有沒有讓這些在幫助我們的孩子大人們他們覺得有受到行政系統的支持所以他們有能量有意願有能力去服務現場的孩子我想這個部分的議題很大我今天就是先切一個簡單的要點好來下一張\n391738\t410950\t之前莊惠雄委員提醒過這件事情我就先跟次長您說明一下目前四所矯正學校人員的流動率是如何其實我們並不清楚可是流動率的穩定其實就取決於這個現場的行政資源系統有沒有健全老師們行政人員有沒有覺得自己是有能量繼續服務我們的孩子還有\n411810\t438456\t新進人員他們其實也需要相關增能的訓練跟後續的行政支持還有一旦到職之後他們開始服務孩子他們所遇到的困難向上呈報的時候有沒有被支持為什麼會說這麼仔細花這麼多時間我事實上之前在一整去年一整年當中我自己花了很多力去去參加相關的民間的研討會我自己就是學員我身在其中我聽到很多少角校的心理師老師行政人員校甚至校長告訴我們他們的困境所以我這邊\n439256\t457817\t今天第一次的司法今天的質詢我想要告訴次長後續我會在這個議題上多所關注我真的很希望我們一起努力推進改革現場的很多狀態老師心理師社工師學校行政人員他們的穩定他們的被支持才能夠服務到我們的孩子這個部分可不可以請次長簡單回應一下\n460600\t473995\t這絕對是我們法國部矯正追求的目標事實上我們矯正署的四個矯正學校我們都邊有專有的這個特教人員輔導人員新設人力這都有專專而且他是專屬的人力這部分也是我們一直在意因為我知道都有\n474295\t499380\t我知道都有那我相信還有很多現場的困境需要我們共同來面對好不好當然還協同國教署好那最後要講一個是關於少角校還有關務所的處遇實施條例在你們今天的業務報告裡面你們提出有相關修法的可能你們已經嚴寧出這個處遇實施條例我想要問一下目前的進度跟委員報告這兩個條例我們目前都送到行政院審查都已經送到行政院了好那可不可以先提供給我們辦公室\n500320\t503102\t我想我談了這麼多少角色的議題或者是剛剛關於那個性侵而上性剝削影像的問題其實他都有跨部會的難題\n519474\t541202\t他都有跨部會要討還有跨相關法規所以我相信在整個盤點上會花很大的力氣跟時間所以我想要聽一下次長在我剛剛不管講的是影像的部分或者是後續的討論還有少角色的部分我們到底有哪些切入的重點你覺得你可以在這邊做一個宣示做一個討論讓我們更加放心這個議題我們往下走的方向會是一致的\n542958\t567686\t少角校的學員他有雙重身份 他當然是犯錯的人但他還是個學生 受年齡的學生所以基本上我們對待他也是參照我們教育部所頒的相關的通則來當作學生來處理相關的課綱我們也比照教育部所規範來處理所以我們在整個修法過程當中我們都希望參照教育部所規範跟我們一般的學生做等同的處理\n568206\t587603\t但是校長教授畢竟他有另外身份學生他有另外身份他是一個有經過改化教育的一個學生所以怎麼樣中間取得平衡對我們來講其實管教跟教育本身我們要抓一個平衡來講我們希望透過我們剛剛送到行政院這兩個條例我們做一個平衡立法上做一個平衡\n588303\t615231\t我可不可以問一下那目前我們遇到一個困境這個也是我們在實際的現場上聽到的聲音矯正學生的留在矯校的時間或長或短每一個人的狀態不一樣來來去去對不對那他們離校之後如果他們還是未成年他們必須要回到社區的學校系統當中目前這個部分的界階跟社區的界階跟國家組在內的界階我們在他離校前三個月我們當然會進行相關的轉嫌嘛轉嫌完之後我們也按照相關規定我們去追撫而且要追撫到一年\n615871\t639552\t所以我們是完全符合相關的規定他離校了之後我們還繼續去追復他一年這個追蹤一年的很多成效我覺得我們一定還有很多實質內容可以討論那另外我也想問我們如何確保矯正學校裡面所教的內容其實是符合孩子們的需求因為我知道這幾年大家在討論角效的時候除了有所謂我們對於原本教育的想像我們更希望引進多元的資源給這些孩子\n639872\t654640\t可是當我們引進這些資源跟原來的學校課程做搭配還要搭配他們原本很多行政的流程會不會其實也間接造成現場人員的負擔造成孩子的負擔還有就是當孩子的犯罪型態這麼多元孩子的原生家庭的生命經驗如此複雜的時候\n655640\t672846\t我們要怎麼能夠確保我們能夠提供給這些孩子不管是您剛剛說的學術型的教育一般型的教育或者是感化型管教型的教育真的可以幫助到這個孩子因為我們在想像的是他走出少角校之後他回到學校他有一天會成年我們都希望他回到成人監獄的機會越來越低\n674546\t695821\t而這個數字是往下降我覺得這才是最美好的願景甚至孩子們在離開腳校之後他會相信這個世界這個社會是願意接納他的那我也想要拜託次長我們在後續的很多議題上不管是學校的課程內容或者是我剛剛說的我們成人這個部分的工作行政的支持整個後援系統的支持還有在學校裡面的課程這些事情我認為我們都有很多\n696321\t707513\t還需要密切的討論 好嗎好 謝謝 萬成贊成不好意思 剛剛這麼多同仁跑出來你們需要補充回答嗎還是我們其實今天就是做一個開始然後後續我們會有非常多細節需要討論好 謝謝委員好 謝謝市長 謝謝各位\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 那有請次長麻煩次長我先好好 次長好 我的投影片先好 次長我想這個創意私房事件的事情跟相關新聞進度你應該有所追蹤但是我想要提醒次長我們發現在實務上有一些問題可能是接下來我們要共同面對跟溝通跟解決的\n在相關的報道章當中呢檢察官陳祥威檢察官他在接受訪問的時候說現行的法院下一章對於刑事訴訟法當中規定的管轄權通常是以犯罪地點來認定可是實務上的困境就是雖然檢察官知道被害人位於台中可是陳偉祥檢察官他跟台中地院申請羈押的時候台中地方法院認為行為人持有影片的時候是在新北所以台中沒有管轄權\n那他就必須要移請新北檢察官來申請羈押實務上有這個困境我相信不是只有這個案例那我不知道次長你覺得我們在這一類的案件上可不可以有機會放寬漸減各位報告我們現在管轄的規定是按照被告的犯罪地住所地跟居所地\n那駐守區居酒隊相對的這個明確那犯罪地上事實上它包括行為地跟結果地不是單純的只有一個行為地而且行為地的概念行為的概念不是單一的概念行為也起一個延續性的概念在一些延續性的犯罪它的行為地也起一個有數個更何況我們刑法上所謂的結果地所謂的行為地呢犯罪地還包括結果地\n是沒錯也就是說有這麼多複雜的狀況但是實務上我們可以怎麼樣讓相關的基層人員在相關調查的過程當中工作的過程當中可以更有效率因為我覺得他們在調查這一次的案件的時候他們已經提出這個實務上的困境那我相信這位檢察官他絕對知道您所剛講的那些\n這涉及到另外一個實務上的見解就是我們在網路上到各地在上網瀏覽這個相關的性行為它的所在地上網這個地方是不是所謂的犯罪地這實務上實際上是正反兩個見解嘛那有些人認為是我在哪裡上網它就是一個行為地但是有些法院認為就等於我們管轄權就\n沒有規範的 因為到處上網 到處都有管轄 全世界都可以管轄所以有些法律的見解 認為這個結果低害財股比較限縮所以看起來 沒關係 那次長因為時間有限 看起來您的見解呢我可以明白 可是我相信在實務上 檢察官在第一線辦案的辛苦 你一定也很清楚\n所以我想後續一定是得開啟更多的討論那是不是我今天就在這裡先提出問題我們後續想辦法來關心跟去請請第一線的聲音好不好好沒問題好我就先提出這個建議喔那接下來在相關的報導當中呢這個檢察官再次提醒我覺得這個事情就比較容易可以解決他說呢在刑事訴訟法101條之一當中因為被告如果我們懷疑他有反覆實行犯刑之餘而得羈押的要件在相關的法條當中\n目前為止並沒有把兒少性剝削防治條例的犯罪納入範圍但是我個人認為兒少性影片相關這些人製造者散播者或者是去在民間在網路上拐騙很多兒少的這些人他們\n當然絕對有高度可能反覆犯案的疑慮不是嗎那我當然知道在之前的刑事訴訟法101條之一當中沒有寫到這個部分但是我認為網路犯罪形態跟過往的犯罪形態已經很不一樣了是不是我們這個時候應該來啟動這個討論\n好跟委員報告的確我們如果我們羈押有兩種可能性如果委員剛提的一防性羈押的確他必須要法條101之一所列舉的犯罪才有可能但這個因為這個法條已經擺很久了沒有修正了那現在新興的很多新興的犯罪產生這條犯罪的確有可以檢討有些犯罪的確有反覆實施的可能性\n這個檢討我知道你們也很忙我們可不可以有一個時間感我們共同來促進這件事情就是說我們羈押除了這個預防性羈押還有我們100條的普通羈押就是說它有串供啊或相關的這個逃亡的事實它也有可能符合羈押要件並不是說一定要把它擺在101-1的預防性羈押才可以羈押它其實有不同的羈押啦當然委員提的沒有錯預防性羈押這個犯罪的罪名的確需要檢討要不然它跟不上我們現在立法院訂的很多新新的法律嘛它跟不上\n因為他才列舉立法就有這個缺毀好沒問題但是我也非常聽到次長剛非常正向的回應就是你也認為確實一他很久沒有討論沒有修了那確實與時俱進的情況下站在保護兒少我們國家宣誓要積極保護兒少的情況下我認為我們共同來面對這個難題好不好各位報告當然這部分法律它是司法院主管的法規我們當然會跟司法院反映委員剛才所提的這個事務上的問題沒有問題喔那我想我們可以積極地做更多的事情來下一張\n嗯 好 我們直接來看矯正學校的業務喔相關的那個性影像犯罪的部分我們之後積極來討論矯正學校其實也是歸法務部的矯正署所主管喔其實在四年前有監察院相關的報告甚至到今年的一月份監察院又提出相關的糾正案那我想要跟次長說明為什麼我今天在第一次司法法治委會我就要關心少年矯正學校事實上我之前在\n教育化委員會的時候我們因著修特教法我們發現有大量適應體育要求適應體育需求的學生或者是有許多特教特職的孩子或者是我們在修學輔法的過程當中發現兒少身心健康的需求不會只落在一般的國民中小學\n或高中他其實在少角學校有大量的需求而且這幾年孩子們原生家庭的狀態社區環境的狀態網路生活的狀態越趨複雜導致於孩子們最後進入角校的時候其實身上是千瘡百孔帶著非常多身心健康的議題甚至他原來有的特教特職沒有被發現所以他進入少角學校之後校長很頭痛行政人員很頭痛特教老師很頭痛輔導老師很頭痛行政人員很頭痛也就是說\n當這些孩子複雜的樣態最後進到矯正學校大家共同有能力看見大家有意識想要共同解決的時候我們相關矯正署的資源跟國教署的對接有沒有服務到位有沒有讓這些在幫助我們的孩子大人們他們覺得有受到行政系統的支持所以他們有能量有意願有能力去服務現場的孩子我想這個部分的議題很大我今天就是先切一個簡單的要點好來下一張\n之前莊惠雄委員提醒過這件事情我就先跟次長您說明一下目前四所矯正學校人員的流動率是如何其實我們並不清楚可是流動率的穩定其實就取決於這個現場的行政資源系統有沒有健全老師們行政人員有沒有覺得自己是有能量繼續服務我們的孩子還有\n新進人員他們其實也需要相關增能的訓練跟後續的行政支持還有一旦到職之後他們開始服務孩子他們所遇到的困難向上呈報的時候有沒有被支持為什麼會說這麼仔細花這麼多時間我事實上之前在一整去年一整年當中我自己花了很多力去去參加相關的民間的研討會我自己就是學員我身在其中我聽到很多少角校的心理師老師行政人員校甚至校長告訴我們他們的困境所以我這邊\n今天第一次的司法今天的質詢我想要告訴次長後續我會在這個議題上多所關注我真的很希望我們一起努力推進改革現場的很多狀態老師心理師社工師學校行政人員他們的穩定他們的被支持才能夠服務到我們的孩子這個部分可不可以請次長簡單回應一下\n這絕對是我們法國部矯正追求的目標事實上我們矯正署的四個矯正學校我們都邊有專有的這個特教人員輔導人員新設人力這都有專專而且他是專屬的人力這部分也是我們一直在意因為我知道都有\n我知道都有那我相信還有很多現場的困境需要我們共同來面對好不好當然還協同國教署好那最後要講一個是關於少角校還有關務所的處遇實施條例在你們今天的業務報告裡面你們提出有相關修法的可能你們已經嚴寧出這個處遇實施條例我想要問一下目前的進度跟委員報告這兩個條例我們目前都送到行政院審查都已經送到行政院了好那可不可以先提供給我們辦公室\n我想我談了這麼多少角色的議題或者是剛剛關於那個性侵而上性剝削影像的問題其實他都有跨部會的難題\n他都有跨部會要討還有跨相關法規所以我相信在整個盤點上會花很大的力氣跟時間所以我想要聽一下次長在我剛剛不管講的是影像的部分或者是後續的討論還有少角色的部分我們到底有哪些切入的重點你覺得你可以在這邊做一個宣示做一個討論讓我們更加放心這個議題我們往下走的方向會是一致的\n少角校的學員他有雙重身份 他當然是犯錯的人但他還是個學生 受年齡的學生所以基本上我們對待他也是參照我們教育部所頒的相關的通則來當作學生來處理相關的課綱我們也比照教育部所規範來處理所以我們在整個修法過程當中我們都希望參照教育部所規範跟我們一般的學生做等同的處理\n但是校長教授畢竟他有另外身份學生他有另外身份他是一個有經過改化教育的一個學生所以怎麼樣中間取得平衡對我們來講其實管教跟教育本身我們要抓一個平衡來講我們希望透過我們剛剛送到行政院這兩個條例我們做一個平衡立法上做一個平衡\n我可不可以問一下那目前我們遇到一個困境這個也是我們在實際的現場上聽到的聲音矯正學生的留在矯校的時間或長或短每一個人的狀態不一樣來來去去對不對那他們離校之後如果他們還是未成年他們必須要回到社區的學校系統當中目前這個部分的界階跟社區的界階跟國家組在內的界階我們在他離校前三個月我們當然會進行相關的轉嫌嘛轉嫌完之後我們也按照相關規定我們去追撫而且要追撫到一年\n所以我們是完全符合相關的規定他離校了之後我們還繼續去追復他一年這個追蹤一年的很多成效我覺得我們一定還有很多實質內容可以討論那另外我也想問我們如何確保矯正學校裡面所教的內容其實是符合孩子們的需求因為我知道這幾年大家在討論角效的時候除了有所謂我們對於原本教育的想像我們更希望引進多元的資源給這些孩子\n可是當我們引進這些資源跟原來的學校課程做搭配還要搭配他們原本很多行政的流程會不會其實也間接造成現場人員的負擔造成孩子的負擔還有就是當孩子的犯罪型態這麼多元孩子的原生家庭的生命經驗如此複雜的時候\n我們要怎麼能夠確保我們能夠提供給這些孩子不管是您剛剛說的學術型的教育一般型的教育或者是感化型管教型的教育真的可以幫助到這個孩子因為我們在想像的是他走出少角校之後他回到學校他有一天會成年我們都希望他回到成人監獄的機會越來越低\n而這個數字是往下降我覺得這才是最美好的願景甚至孩子們在離開腳校之後他會相信這個世界這個社會是願意接納他的那我也想要拜託次長我們在後續的很多議題上不管是學校的課程內容或者是我剛剛說的我們成人這個部分的工作行政的支持整個後援系統的支持還有在學校裡面的課程這些事情我認為我們都有很多\n還需要密切的討論 好嗎好 謝謝 萬成贊成不好意思 剛剛這麼多同仁跑出來你們需要補充回答嗎還是我們其實今天就是做一個開始然後後續我們會有非常多細節需要討論好 謝謝委員好 謝謝市長 謝謝各位\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.063 --> 00:31.132\n好謝謝主席那有請次長麻煩次長我先好好次長好我的投影片先好次長我想這個創意私房事件的事情跟相關新聞進度你應該有所追蹤但是我想要提醒次長我們發現在實務上有一些問題可能是接下來我們要共同面對跟溝通跟解決的\n\n00:31.912 --> 00:59.309\n在相關的報道章當中呢檢察官陳祥威檢察官他在接受訪問的時候說現行的法院下一章對於刑事訴訟法當中規定的管轄權通常是以犯罪地點來認定可是實務上的困境就是雖然檢察官知道被害人位於台中可是陳偉祥檢察官他跟台中地院申請羈押的時候台中地方法院認為行為人持有影片的時候是在新北所以台中沒有管轄權\n\n01:00.109 --> 01:18.015\n那他就必須要移請新北檢察官來申請羈押實務上有這個困境我相信不是只有這個案例那我不知道次長你覺得我們在這一類的案件上可不可以有機會放寬漸減各位報告我們現在管轄的規定是按照被告的犯罪地住所地跟居所地\n\n01:18.855 --> 01:40.529\n那駐守區居酒隊相對的這個明確那犯罪地上事實上它包括行為地跟結果地不是單純的只有一個行為地而且行為地的概念行為的概念不是單一的概念行為也起一個延續性的概念在一些延續性的犯罪它的行為地也起一個有數個更何況我們刑法上所謂的結果地所謂的行為地呢犯罪地還包括結果地\n\n01:40.709 --> 01:59.341\n是沒錯也就是說有這麼多複雜的狀況但是實務上我們可以怎麼樣讓相關的基層人員在相關調查的過程當中工作的過程當中可以更有效率因為我覺得他們在調查這一次的案件的時候他們已經提出這個實務上的困境那我相信這位檢察官他絕對知道您所剛講的那些\n\n02:00.081 --> 02:21.294\n這涉及到另外一個實務上的見解就是我們在網路上到各地在上網瀏覽這個相關的性行為它的所在地上網這個地方是不是所謂的犯罪地這實務上實際上是正反兩個見解嘛那有些人認為是我在哪裡上網它就是一個行為地但是有些法院認為就等於我們管轄權就\n\n02:22.415 --> 02:38.846\n沒有規範的因為到處上網到處都有管轄全世界都可以管轄所以有些法律的見解認為這個結果低害財股比較限縮所以看起來沒關係那次長因為時間有限看起來您的見解呢我可以明白可是我相信在實務上檢察官在第一線辦案的辛苦你一定也很清楚\n\n02:39.446 --> 03:05.593\n所以我想後續一定是得開啟更多的討論那是不是我今天就在這裡先提出問題我們後續想辦法來關心跟去請請第一線的聲音好不好好沒問題好我就先提出這個建議喔那接下來在相關的報導當中呢這個檢察官再次提醒我覺得這個事情就比較容易可以解決他說呢在刑事訴訟法101條之一當中因為被告如果我們懷疑他有反覆實行犯刑之餘而得羈押的要件在相關的法條當中\n\n03:06.713 --> 03:24.458\n目前為止並沒有把兒少性剝削防治條例的犯罪納入範圍但是我個人認為兒少性影片相關這些人製造者散播者或者是去在民間在網路上拐騙很多兒少的這些人他們\n\n03:25.138 --> 03:39.483\n當然絕對有高度可能反覆犯案的疑慮不是嗎那我當然知道在之前的刑事訴訟法101條之一當中沒有寫到這個部分但是我認為網路犯罪形態跟過往的犯罪形態已經很不一樣了是不是我們這個時候應該來啟動這個討論\n\n03:41.624 --> 04:00.613\n好跟委員報告的確我們如果我們羈押有兩種可能性如果委員剛提的一防性羈押的確他必須要法條101之一所列舉的犯罪才有可能但這個因為這個法條已經擺很久了沒有修正了那現在新興的很多新興的犯罪產生這條犯罪的確有可以檢討有些犯罪的確有反覆實施的可能性\n\n04:01.433 --> 04:30.289\n這個檢討我知道你們也很忙我們可不可以有一個時間感我們共同來促進這件事情就是說我們羈押除了這個預防性羈押還有我們100條的普通羈押就是說它有串供啊或相關的這個逃亡的事實它也有可能符合羈押要件並不是說一定要把它擺在101-1的預防性羈押才可以羈押它其實有不同的羈押啦當然委員提的沒有錯預防性羈押這個犯罪的罪名的確需要檢討要不然它跟不上我們現在立法院訂的很多新新的法律嘛它跟不上\n\n04:30.889 --> 04:57.950\n因為他才列舉立法就有這個缺毀好沒問題但是我也非常聽到次長剛非常正向的回應就是你也認為確實一他很久沒有討論沒有修了那確實與時俱進的情況下站在保護兒少我們國家宣誓要積極保護兒少的情況下我認為我們共同來面對這個難題好不好各位報告當然這部分法律它是司法院主管的法規我們當然會跟司法院反映委員剛才所提的這個事務上的問題沒有問題喔那我想我們可以積極地做更多的事情來下一張\n\n04:58.931 --> 05:20.922\n嗯好我們直接來看矯正學校的業務喔相關的那個性影像犯罪的部分我們之後積極來討論矯正學校其實也是歸法務部的矯正署所主管喔其實在四年前有監察院相關的報告甚至到今年的一月份監察院又提出相關的糾正案那我想要跟次長說明為什麼我今天在第一次司法法治委會我就要關心少年矯正學校事實上我之前在\n\n05:21.682 --> 05:37.123\n教育化委員會的時候我們因著修特教法我們發現有大量適應體育要求適應體育需求的學生或者是有許多特教特職的孩子或者是我們在修學輔法的過程當中發現兒少身心健康的需求不會只落在一般的國民中小學\n\n05:37.523 --> 06:00.583\n或高中他其實在少角學校有大量的需求而且這幾年孩子們原生家庭的狀態社區環境的狀態網路生活的狀態越趨複雜導致於孩子們最後進入角校的時候其實身上是千瘡百孔帶著非常多身心健康的議題甚至他原來有的特教特職沒有被發現所以他進入少角學校之後校長很頭痛行政人員很頭痛特教老師很頭痛輔導老師很頭痛行政人員很頭痛也就是說\n\n06:05.047 --> 06:28.382\n當這些孩子複雜的樣態最後進到矯正學校大家共同有能力看見大家有意識想要共同解決的時候我們相關矯正署的資源跟國教署的對接有沒有服務到位有沒有讓這些在幫助我們的孩子大人們他們覺得有受到行政系統的支持所以他們有能量有意願有能力去服務現場的孩子我想這個部分的議題很大我今天就是先切一個簡單的要點好來下一張\n\n06:31.738 --> 06:50.950\n之前莊惠雄委員提醒過這件事情我就先跟次長您說明一下目前四所矯正學校人員的流動率是如何其實我們並不清楚可是流動率的穩定其實就取決於這個現場的行政資源系統有沒有健全老師們行政人員有沒有覺得自己是有能量繼續服務我們的孩子還有\n\n06:51.810 --> 07:18.456\n新進人員他們其實也需要相關增能的訓練跟後續的行政支持還有一旦到職之後他們開始服務孩子他們所遇到的困難向上呈報的時候有沒有被支持為什麼會說這麼仔細花這麼多時間我事實上之前在一整去年一整年當中我自己花了很多力去去參加相關的民間的研討會我自己就是學員我身在其中我聽到很多少角校的心理師老師行政人員校甚至校長告訴我們他們的困境所以我這邊\n\n07:19.256 --> 07:37.817\n今天第一次的司法今天的質詢我想要告訴次長後續我會在這個議題上多所關注我真的很希望我們一起努力推進改革現場的很多狀態老師心理師社工師學校行政人員他們的穩定他們的被支持才能夠服務到我們的孩子這個部分可不可以請次長簡單回應一下\n\n07:40.600 --> 07:53.995\n這絕對是我們法國部矯正追求的目標事實上我們矯正署的四個矯正學校我們都邊有專有的這個特教人員輔導人員新設人力這都有專專而且他是專屬的人力這部分也是我們一直在意因為我知道都有\n\n07:54.295 --> 08:19.380\n我知道都有那我相信還有很多現場的困境需要我們共同來面對好不好當然還協同國教署好那最後要講一個是關於少角校還有關務所的處遇實施條例在你們今天的業務報告裡面你們提出有相關修法的可能你們已經嚴寧出這個處遇實施條例我想要問一下目前的進度跟委員報告這兩個條例我們目前都送到行政院審查都已經送到行政院了好那可不可以先提供給我們辦公室\n\n08:20.320 --> 08:23.102\n我想我談了這麼多少角色的議題或者是剛剛關於那個性侵而上性剝削影像的問題其實他都有跨部會的難題\n\n08:39.474 --> 09:01.202\n他都有跨部會要討還有跨相關法規所以我相信在整個盤點上會花很大的力氣跟時間所以我想要聽一下次長在我剛剛不管講的是影像的部分或者是後續的討論還有少角色的部分我們到底有哪些切入的重點你覺得你可以在這邊做一個宣示做一個討論讓我們更加放心這個議題我們往下走的方向會是一致的\n\n09:02.958 --> 09:27.686\n少角校的學員他有雙重身份他當然是犯錯的人但他還是個學生受年齡的學生所以基本上我們對待他也是參照我們教育部所頒的相關的通則來當作學生來處理相關的課綱我們也比照教育部所規範來處理所以我們在整個修法過程當中我們都希望參照教育部所規範跟我們一般的學生做等同的處理\n\n09:28.206 --> 09:47.603\n但是校長教授畢竟他有另外身份學生他有另外身份他是一個有經過改化教育的一個學生所以怎麼樣中間取得平衡對我們來講其實管教跟教育本身我們要抓一個平衡來講我們希望透過我們剛剛送到行政院這兩個條例我們做一個平衡立法上做一個平衡\n\n09:48.303 --> 10:15.231\n我可不可以問一下那目前我們遇到一個困境這個也是我們在實際的現場上聽到的聲音矯正學生的留在矯校的時間或長或短每一個人的狀態不一樣來來去去對不對那他們離校之後如果他們還是未成年他們必須要回到社區的學校系統當中目前這個部分的界階跟社區的界階跟國家組在內的界階我們在他離校前三個月我們當然會進行相關的轉嫌嘛轉嫌完之後我們也按照相關規定我們去追撫而且要追撫到一年\n\n10:15.871 --> 10:39.552\n所以我們是完全符合相關的規定他離校了之後我們還繼續去追復他一年這個追蹤一年的很多成效我覺得我們一定還有很多實質內容可以討論那另外我也想問我們如何確保矯正學校裡面所教的內容其實是符合孩子們的需求因為我知道這幾年大家在討論角效的時候除了有所謂我們對於原本教育的想像我們更希望引進多元的資源給這些孩子\n\n10:39.872 --> 10:54.640\n可是當我們引進這些資源跟原來的學校課程做搭配還要搭配他們原本很多行政的流程會不會其實也間接造成現場人員的負擔造成孩子的負擔還有就是當孩子的犯罪型態這麼多元孩子的原生家庭的生命經驗如此複雜的時候\n\n10:55.640 --> 11:12.846\n我們要怎麼能夠確保我們能夠提供給這些孩子不管是您剛剛說的學術型的教育一般型的教育或者是感化型管教型的教育真的可以幫助到這個孩子因為我們在想像的是他走出少角校之後他回到學校他有一天會成年我們都希望他回到成人監獄的機會越來越低\n\n11:14.546 --> 11:35.821\n而這個數字是往下降我覺得這才是最美好的願景甚至孩子們在離開腳校之後他會相信這個世界這個社會是願意接納他的那我也想要拜託次長我們在後續的很多議題上不管是學校的課程內容或者是我剛剛說的我們成人這個部分的工作行政的支持整個後援系統的支持還有在學校裡面的課程這些事情我認為我們都有很多\n\n11:36.321 --> 11:47.513\n還需要密切的討論好嗎好謝謝萬成贊成不好意思剛剛這麼多同仁跑出來你們需要補充回答嗎還是我們其實今天就是做一個開始然後後續我們會有非常多細節需要討論好謝謝委員好謝謝市長謝謝各位\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.063,"end":31.132,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那有請次長麻煩次長我先好好 次長好 我的投影片先好 次長我想這個創意私房事件的事情跟相關新聞進度你應該有所追蹤但是我想要提醒次長我們發現在實務上有一些問題可能是接下來我們要共同面對跟溝通跟解決的"},{"start":31.912,"end":59.309,"text":"在相關的報道章當中呢檢察官陳祥威檢察官他在接受訪問的時候說現行的法院下一章對於刑事訴訟法當中規定的管轄權通常是以犯罪地點來認定可是實務上的困境就是雖然檢察官知道被害人位於台中可是陳偉祥檢察官他跟台中地院申請羈押的時候台中地方法院認為行為人持有影片的時候是在新北所以台中沒有管轄權"},{"start":60.109,"end":78.015,"text":"那他就必須要移請新北檢察官來申請羈押實務上有這個困境我相信不是只有這個案例那我不知道次長你覺得我們在這一類的案件上可不可以有機會放寬漸減各位報告我們現在管轄的規定是按照被告的犯罪地住所地跟居所地"},{"start":78.855,"end":100.529,"text":"那駐守區居酒隊相對的這個明確那犯罪地上事實上它包括行為地跟結果地不是單純的只有一個行為地而且行為地的概念行為的概念不是單一的概念行為也起一個延續性的概念在一些延續性的犯罪它的行為地也起一個有數個更何況我們刑法上所謂的結果地所謂的行為地呢犯罪地還包括結果地"},{"start":100.709,"end":119.341,"text":"是沒錯也就是說有這麼多複雜的狀況但是實務上我們可以怎麼樣讓相關的基層人員在相關調查的過程當中工作的過程當中可以更有效率因為我覺得他們在調查這一次的案件的時候他們已經提出這個實務上的困境那我相信這位檢察官他絕對知道您所剛講的那些"},{"start":120.081,"end":141.294,"text":"這涉及到另外一個實務上的見解就是我們在網路上到各地在上網瀏覽這個相關的性行為它的所在地上網這個地方是不是所謂的犯罪地這實務上實際上是正反兩個見解嘛那有些人認為是我在哪裡上網它就是一個行為地但是有些法院認為就等於我們管轄權就"},{"start":142.415,"end":158.846,"text":"沒有規範的 因為到處上網 到處都有管轄 全世界都可以管轄所以有些法律的見解 認為這個結果低害財股比較限縮所以看起來 沒關係 那次長因為時間有限 看起來您的見解呢我可以明白 可是我相信在實務上 檢察官在第一線辦案的辛苦 你一定也很清楚"},{"start":159.446,"end":185.593,"text":"所以我想後續一定是得開啟更多的討論那是不是我今天就在這裡先提出問題我們後續想辦法來關心跟去請請第一線的聲音好不好好沒問題好我就先提出這個建議喔那接下來在相關的報導當中呢這個檢察官再次提醒我覺得這個事情就比較容易可以解決他說呢在刑事訴訟法101條之一當中因為被告如果我們懷疑他有反覆實行犯刑之餘而得羈押的要件在相關的法條當中"},{"start":186.713,"end":204.458,"text":"目前為止並沒有把兒少性剝削防治條例的犯罪納入範圍但是我個人認為兒少性影片相關這些人製造者散播者或者是去在民間在網路上拐騙很多兒少的這些人他們"},{"start":205.138,"end":219.483,"text":"當然絕對有高度可能反覆犯案的疑慮不是嗎那我當然知道在之前的刑事訴訟法101條之一當中沒有寫到這個部分但是我認為網路犯罪形態跟過往的犯罪形態已經很不一樣了是不是我們這個時候應該來啟動這個討論"},{"start":221.624,"end":240.613,"text":"好跟委員報告的確我們如果我們羈押有兩種可能性如果委員剛提的一防性羈押的確他必須要法條101之一所列舉的犯罪才有可能但這個因為這個法條已經擺很久了沒有修正了那現在新興的很多新興的犯罪產生這條犯罪的確有可以檢討有些犯罪的確有反覆實施的可能性"},{"start":241.433,"end":270.289,"text":"這個檢討我知道你們也很忙我們可不可以有一個時間感我們共同來促進這件事情就是說我們羈押除了這個預防性羈押還有我們100條的普通羈押就是說它有串供啊或相關的這個逃亡的事實它也有可能符合羈押要件並不是說一定要把它擺在101-1的預防性羈押才可以羈押它其實有不同的羈押啦當然委員提的沒有錯預防性羈押這個犯罪的罪名的確需要檢討要不然它跟不上我們現在立法院訂的很多新新的法律嘛它跟不上"},{"start":270.889,"end":297.95,"text":"因為他才列舉立法就有這個缺毀好沒問題但是我也非常聽到次長剛非常正向的回應就是你也認為確實一他很久沒有討論沒有修了那確實與時俱進的情況下站在保護兒少我們國家宣誓要積極保護兒少的情況下我認為我們共同來面對這個難題好不好各位報告當然這部分法律它是司法院主管的法規我們當然會跟司法院反映委員剛才所提的這個事務上的問題沒有問題喔那我想我們可以積極地做更多的事情來下一張"},{"start":298.931,"end":320.922,"text":"嗯 好 我們直接來看矯正學校的業務喔相關的那個性影像犯罪的部分我們之後積極來討論矯正學校其實也是歸法務部的矯正署所主管喔其實在四年前有監察院相關的報告甚至到今年的一月份監察院又提出相關的糾正案那我想要跟次長說明為什麼我今天在第一次司法法治委會我就要關心少年矯正學校事實上我之前在"},{"start":321.682,"end":337.123,"text":"教育化委員會的時候我們因著修特教法我們發現有大量適應體育要求適應體育需求的學生或者是有許多特教特職的孩子或者是我們在修學輔法的過程當中發現兒少身心健康的需求不會只落在一般的國民中小學"},{"start":337.523,"end":360.583,"text":"或高中他其實在少角學校有大量的需求而且這幾年孩子們原生家庭的狀態社區環境的狀態網路生活的狀態越趨複雜導致於孩子們最後進入角校的時候其實身上是千瘡百孔帶著非常多身心健康的議題甚至他原來有的特教特職沒有被發現所以他進入少角學校之後校長很頭痛行政人員很頭痛特教老師很頭痛輔導老師很頭痛行政人員很頭痛也就是說"},{"start":365.047,"end":388.382,"text":"當這些孩子複雜的樣態最後進到矯正學校大家共同有能力看見大家有意識想要共同解決的時候我們相關矯正署的資源跟國教署的對接有沒有服務到位有沒有讓這些在幫助我們的孩子大人們他們覺得有受到行政系統的支持所以他們有能量有意願有能力去服務現場的孩子我想這個部分的議題很大我今天就是先切一個簡單的要點好來下一張"},{"start":391.738,"end":410.95,"text":"之前莊惠雄委員提醒過這件事情我就先跟次長您說明一下目前四所矯正學校人員的流動率是如何其實我們並不清楚可是流動率的穩定其實就取決於這個現場的行政資源系統有沒有健全老師們行政人員有沒有覺得自己是有能量繼續服務我們的孩子還有"},{"start":411.81,"end":438.456,"text":"新進人員他們其實也需要相關增能的訓練跟後續的行政支持還有一旦到職之後他們開始服務孩子他們所遇到的困難向上呈報的時候有沒有被支持為什麼會說這麼仔細花這麼多時間我事實上之前在一整去年一整年當中我自己花了很多力去去參加相關的民間的研討會我自己就是學員我身在其中我聽到很多少角校的心理師老師行政人員校甚至校長告訴我們他們的困境所以我這邊"},{"start":439.256,"end":457.817,"text":"今天第一次的司法今天的質詢我想要告訴次長後續我會在這個議題上多所關注我真的很希望我們一起努力推進改革現場的很多狀態老師心理師社工師學校行政人員他們的穩定他們的被支持才能夠服務到我們的孩子這個部分可不可以請次長簡單回應一下"},{"start":460.6,"end":473.995,"text":"這絕對是我們法國部矯正追求的目標事實上我們矯正署的四個矯正學校我們都邊有專有的這個特教人員輔導人員新設人力這都有專專而且他是專屬的人力這部分也是我們一直在意因為我知道都有"},{"start":474.295,"end":499.38,"text":"我知道都有那我相信還有很多現場的困境需要我們共同來面對好不好當然還協同國教署好那最後要講一個是關於少角校還有關務所的處遇實施條例在你們今天的業務報告裡面你們提出有相關修法的可能你們已經嚴寧出這個處遇實施條例我想要問一下目前的進度跟委員報告這兩個條例我們目前都送到行政院審查都已經送到行政院了好那可不可以先提供給我們辦公室"},{"start":500.32,"end":503.102,"text":"我想我談了這麼多少角色的議題或者是剛剛關於那個性侵而上性剝削影像的問題其實他都有跨部會的難題"},{"start":519.474,"end":541.202,"text":"他都有跨部會要討還有跨相關法規所以我相信在整個盤點上會花很大的力氣跟時間所以我想要聽一下次長在我剛剛不管講的是影像的部分或者是後續的討論還有少角色的部分我們到底有哪些切入的重點你覺得你可以在這邊做一個宣示做一個討論讓我們更加放心這個議題我們往下走的方向會是一致的"},{"start":542.958,"end":567.686,"text":"少角校的學員他有雙重身份 他當然是犯錯的人但他還是個學生 受年齡的學生所以基本上我們對待他也是參照我們教育部所頒的相關的通則來當作學生來處理相關的課綱我們也比照教育部所規範來處理所以我們在整個修法過程當中我們都希望參照教育部所規範跟我們一般的學生做等同的處理"},{"start":568.206,"end":587.603,"text":"但是校長教授畢竟他有另外身份學生他有另外身份他是一個有經過改化教育的一個學生所以怎麼樣中間取得平衡對我們來講其實管教跟教育本身我們要抓一個平衡來講我們希望透過我們剛剛送到行政院這兩個條例我們做一個平衡立法上做一個平衡"},{"start":588.303,"end":615.231,"text":"我可不可以問一下那目前我們遇到一個困境這個也是我們在實際的現場上聽到的聲音矯正學生的留在矯校的時間或長或短每一個人的狀態不一樣來來去去對不對那他們離校之後如果他們還是未成年他們必須要回到社區的學校系統當中目前這個部分的界階跟社區的界階跟國家組在內的界階我們在他離校前三個月我們當然會進行相關的轉嫌嘛轉嫌完之後我們也按照相關規定我們去追撫而且要追撫到一年"},{"start":615.871,"end":639.552,"text":"所以我們是完全符合相關的規定他離校了之後我們還繼續去追復他一年這個追蹤一年的很多成效我覺得我們一定還有很多實質內容可以討論那另外我也想問我們如何確保矯正學校裡面所教的內容其實是符合孩子們的需求因為我知道這幾年大家在討論角效的時候除了有所謂我們對於原本教育的想像我們更希望引進多元的資源給這些孩子"},{"start":639.872,"end":654.64,"text":"可是當我們引進這些資源跟原來的學校課程做搭配還要搭配他們原本很多行政的流程會不會其實也間接造成現場人員的負擔造成孩子的負擔還有就是當孩子的犯罪型態這麼多元孩子的原生家庭的生命經驗如此複雜的時候"},{"start":655.64,"end":672.846,"text":"我們要怎麼能夠確保我們能夠提供給這些孩子不管是您剛剛說的學術型的教育一般型的教育或者是感化型管教型的教育真的可以幫助到這個孩子因為我們在想像的是他走出少角校之後他回到學校他有一天會成年我們都希望他回到成人監獄的機會越來越低"},{"start":674.546,"end":695.821,"text":"而這個數字是往下降我覺得這才是最美好的願景甚至孩子們在離開腳校之後他會相信這個世界這個社會是願意接納他的那我也想要拜託次長我們在後續的很多議題上不管是學校的課程內容或者是我剛剛說的我們成人這個部分的工作行政的支持整個後援系統的支持還有在學校裡面的課程這些事情我認為我們都有很多"},{"start":696.321,"end":707.513,"text":"還需要密切的討論 好嗎好 謝謝 萬成贊成不好意思 剛剛這麼多同仁跑出來你們需要補充回答嗎還是我們其實今天就是做一個開始然後後續我們會有非常多細節需要討論好 謝謝委員好 謝謝市長 謝謝各位"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1204,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時35分）謝謝主席。有請次長。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：次長好。次長，創意私房事件和相關新聞，您應該有所追蹤，但是本席想提醒次長，我們發現在實務上有一些問題，可能是接下來我們要共同面對、溝通和解決的。在相關的報導當中，陳祥薇檢察官在接受訪問的時候說到，現行法院對於刑事訴訟法當中規定的管轄權，通常是以犯罪地點認定。","但實務上的困境是，雖然檢察官知道被害人位於臺中，可是當陳祥薇檢察官向臺中地院申請羈押的時候，臺中地方法院認為行為人持有影片的時候是在新北，臺中沒有管轄權，所以必須移請新北檢察官申請羈押，實務上有這個困境，本席相信不是只有這個案例。次長，你覺得這類案件是否有機會放寬見解？"],["黃次長謀信：我們現在管轄的規定是按照被告的犯罪地、住所地和居所地，住所及居所地相對明確，至於犯罪地，事實上包括行為地和結果地，不是單純的只有一個行為地。而且行為地的概念，因為行為不是單一的概念，行為也許是延續性的，在一些延續性的犯罪，它的行為地也許有數個，更何況刑法所謂的犯罪地還包括結果地。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，沒錯。也就是說有這麼多複雜的狀況，在實務上，我們怎麼讓相關基層人員在調查過程或是工作過程當中更有效率？因為他們在調查這次的案件時，就提出這個實務上的困境，本席相信這位檢察官絕對知道您剛才說的那些內容。"],["黃次長謀信：對。這涉及到另外的實務上見解，就是在各地上網瀏覽相關性影音的行為，他的所在地就是上網這個地方，是不是所謂的犯罪地？這在實務上有正反兩個見解。有些人認為是，在哪裡上網，它就是行為地，但是有些法院認為就管轄權來說，這部分並沒有規範，因為到處上網，到處都有管轄，全世界都可以管轄，所以有些法律見解是認為結果地會比較限縮，就是上網這件事情。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒關係，次長，因為時間有限。本席可以明白您的見解，可是本席相信在實務上，檢察官在第一線辦案的辛苦，您一定也很清楚。"],["黃次長謀信：完全理解。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以本席認為後續一定得開啟更多討論，因此本席今天在這裡先提出問題，後續我們再想辦法關心，傾聽第一線的聲音，好不好？"],["黃次長謀信：好，沒問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，本席是先提出這個建議。在相關報導當中，這個檢察官也再次提醒，本席覺得這件事情比較容易解決，就是刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一，如果懷疑被告有反覆實行犯行之虞而得羈押的要件，在相關法條當中，目前並沒有把兒少性剝削防制條例的犯罪納入範圍。但是本席個人認為，和兒少性影片相關的這些人，不管是製造者、散播者，或者是在民間、在網路上拐騙兒少的人，這些人絕對有高度反覆犯案的疑慮，不是嗎？","本席當然知道，刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一沒有寫到這個部分，但是本席認為網路犯罪形態和過往的犯罪形態已經很不一樣，這個時候我們是不是應該啟動相關討論？"],["黃次長謀信：的確，羈押有兩種可能性，如果是委員剛剛提的預防性羈押，的確必須要有法條第一百零一條之一所列舉的犯罪條件才行。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，沒錯。"],["黃次長謀信：但是因為這個法條已經實施很久，也沒有修正，現在很多新興犯罪產生，這一條的確可以檢討，有些犯罪的確有反覆實施的可能性。"],["陳委員培瑜：本席知道你們也很忙，我們可不可以設定一個時間，共同促進這件事情？"],["黃次長謀信：我補充一下，我們的羈押除了預防性羈押，還有第一百條的普通羈押，就是他有串供或逃亡的事實，也有可能符合羈押要件，並不是一定要符合第一百零一條之一才能做預防性羈押，其實有不同的羈押啦！當然，委員提的沒有錯，預防性羈押這個犯罪罪名的確需要檢討，要不然它跟不上現在立法院訂定的很多新興法律嘛！因為它採用列舉式的立法，所以會有這個缺漏。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒問題。本席有聽到次長剛剛非常正向的回應，就是你也認為確實是這樣，第一，它很久沒有討論、修正，法律應該要與時俱進，在國家宣誓要積極保護兒少的情況下，我們共同面對這個難題，好不好？"],["黃次長謀信：這部分的法律是司法院主管的法規，我們也會向司法院反映委員剛剛所提的實務上問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒有問題，我們可以積極的做更多事情。我們直接來看矯正學校的業務，相關的性影像犯罪部分，我們之後再積極討論。矯正學校其實也是歸法務部的矯正署主管，4年前監察院有提出相關報告，甚至在今年的1月份，監察院又提出相關糾正案。本席想要向次長說明，為什麼今天司法及法制委員會第一次開會，本席就要關心少年矯正學校的議題。","事實上之前在教育及文化委員會的時候，因為修特教法，我們發現有大量適應體育需求的學生，或者有許多特教特質的孩子，或者是我們在修學輔法的過程當中，發現兒少身心健康的需求不會只落在一般的國民中小學或高中，其實少矯學校也有大量的需求。而且這幾年孩子們原生家庭的狀態、社區環境的狀態、網路生活的狀態越趨複雜，導致孩子們最後進入矯校的時候，其實身上千瘡百孔，帶著非常多身心健康的議題，甚至是他的特教特質沒有被發現，所以他進入少矯學校之後，校長很頭痛，行政人員很頭痛，特教老師很頭痛，輔導老師很頭痛，行政人員很頭痛。也就是說，當這些孩子帶著複雜的樣態進到矯正署，大家看見、也有意識想要共同解決的時候，矯正署的相關資源和國教署的對接有沒有服務到位？有沒有讓這些幫助孩子的大人們感受到行政系統的支持？讓他們有能量、有意願、有能力去服務現場的孩子，本席認為這個部分的議題很大，今天先簡單點出一個要點。","之前莊瑞雄委員有提醒過這件事情，本席先向次長說明一下，目前4所矯正學校人員的流動率如何？其實我們並不清楚，可是流動率的穩定，其實取決於現場的行政資源系統是否健全？老師們、行政人員是否有能量繼續服務孩子？還有，新進人員其實也需要相關增能的訓練和後續的行政支持。另外，一旦到職之後，他們開始服務孩子後所遇到的困難，向上呈報的時候有沒有被支持？","為什麼本席會花這麼多時間說的這麼仔細？事實上去年一整年，本席花了很多力氣去參加相關的民間研討會，因為本席就是學員，也身在其中，所以聽到很多少矯校的心理師、老師、行政人員訴說他們的困境，甚至包括校長。今天的質詢本席想要告訴次長，後續本席會就這個議題多所關注，因為本席真的很希望我們能夠一起努力，推進、改革現場的很多狀態。老師、心理師、社工師、學校行政人員，他們能夠穩定的被支持，才能夠服務我們的孩子。這個部分可不可以請次長簡單回應一下？"],["黃次長謀信：這絕對是法務部矯正追求的目標。事實上矯正署的4所矯正學校都有編專任的特教人員、輔導人員、心社人力，而且是專屬的人力，這部分也是我們一直在意的，因為……"],["陳委員培瑜：本席知道這些都有，但本席相信現場還有很多困境需要共同面對，好不好？當然還要協同國教署。","最後要說的是關於少矯校和觀護所處遇實施條例，你們今天的業務報告有提出相關修法的可能，也研擬出處遇實施條例，本席想要問一下目前的進度。"],["黃次長謀信：目前這兩個條例都送到行政院審查了。"],["陳委員培瑜：都已經送到行政院了？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：可不可以先提供給我們辦公室？"],["黃次長謀信：條例的草案要經過行政院審查。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒關係，我們就先等待你們的進度。本席談了這麼多少矯校的議題，或者是剛剛關於兒少性剝削影像的問題，其實都有跨部會的難題，需要跨部會討論，而且橫跨相關法規，所以本席相信在盤點時會花很大的力氣和時間。本席想要聽一下次長的意見，不管是本席剛才說的影像部分，或者是後續的討論，還有少矯校的部分，到底有哪些可以切入的重點，你可以在這邊宣示、討論？這樣才能讓我們更加放心，知道這個議題往下走的時候，我們的方向是一致的。"],["黃次長謀信：少矯校的學員有雙重身分。"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["黃次長謀信：他當然是犯錯的人，但他還是個學生，是學齡的學生，所以基本上，我們對待他也是參照教育部所頒的相關通則，當作學生來處理，相關的課綱我們也比照教育部所定的課綱來處理。所以我們在整個修法過程當中，都希望參照教育部所規範的，跟一般學生做等同的處理。但是少矯校的學生畢竟還有另外的身分，他是一個經過感化教育的學生，所以怎麼樣在中間取得平衡，對我們來講，其實管教跟教育本身，我們要抓一個平衡，希望透過剛剛送到行政院的這兩個條例來平衡，在立法上平衡。"],["陳委員培瑜：我可不可以問一下，目前我們遇到一個困境，這個也是我們在實際現場上聽到的聲音，矯正學生留在矯校的時間或長或短，每一個人的狀態不一樣，來來去去，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：他們離校之後，如果他們還是未成年，他們必須要回到社區的學校系統當中，目前這個部分的介接，跟社區的介接，跟國教署的介接……"],["黃次長謀信：我們在他離校前三個月，當然會進行相關的轉銜，轉銜完之後，我們也按照相關規定去追輔，而且要追輔到一年，所以我們是完全符合相關規定，就是他離校了之後，我們還繼續去追輔他一年。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。這個追蹤一年的很多成效，我覺得我們一定還有很多實質內容可以討論。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：另外，我也想問我們如何確保矯正學校裡面所教的內容是符合孩子們的需求？因為我知道，這幾年大家在討論矯校的時候，除了有所謂我們對於原本教育的想像，我們更希望引進多元的資源給這些孩子，可是當我們引進這些資源跟原來的學校課程搭配，還要搭配他們原本很多行政的流程，會不會其實也間接造成現場人員的負擔？造成孩子的負擔？還有當孩子的犯罪型態這麼多元，孩子的原生家庭生命經驗如此複雜的時候，我們要怎麼能夠確保我們能夠提供給這些孩子，不管是您剛剛說的學術型的教育、一般型的教育，或者是感化型、管教型的教育，真的可以幫助到這個孩子？因為我們在想像的是，他走出少矯校之後，他回到學校，他有一天會成年，我們都希望他回到成人監獄的機會越來越低，而這個數字是往下降的，我覺得這才是最美好的願景。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：甚至孩子們在離開矯校之後，他會相信這個世界、這個社會是願意接納他的。我也想要拜託次長，我們在後續的很多議題上，不管是學校的課程內容，或者是我剛剛說的，成人這個部分的工作、行政的支持、整個後援系統的支持，還有在學校裡面的課程這些事情，我認為我們都有很多還需要密切討論，好嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：好，謝謝，完全贊成。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。不好意思，剛剛這麼多同仁跑出來，你們需要補充回答嗎？還是我們其實今天就是做一個開始，然後後續我們會有非常多細節需要討論？"],["黃次長謀信：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝次長，謝謝各位，謝謝。"],["周署長輝煌：謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請林倩綺委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","柯建銘","王義川","吳思瑤","黃國昌","王鴻薇","沈發惠","傅崐萁","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142601_00011"}}}