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0.995}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 593.781, \"end\": 593.961, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"流\", \"start\": 593.961, \"end\": 593.981, \"score\": 0.608}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,079 --> 00:00:05,842\n謝謝主席一樣麻煩邀請我們的黃部長請部長好部長好這個我要問的大概跟剛剛邱老委員我進來的時候邱老委員在問的這個確GPP跟Deep-seek的人工智慧有關當然如果說剛剛有他問過在走路沒聽到的話可能再麻煩你再說一次\n\n2\n00:00:27,501 --> 00:00:53,300\n其實就是我們國家現在目前禁止公務機關使用DeepSync就我個人的感覺啦這是一個非常沒有自信的一個作為啦好像我們做不出來一個比它一個好的一個中文的以中文為主的語言模型然後我們就禁止它然後不讓大家使用好像就看不到我們的缺點這樣子我覺得非常沒有自信的一種作為啦\n\n3\n00:00:53,760 --> 00:01:12,910\n那在這個語言模型上面目前DeepSeek是最強的那剛剛部長有說普遍啦不管是部長還是新聞報的媒體上面大概說會禁用DeepSeek大概兩個原因第一個就是國家通訊安全第二個就是隱私嘛大部分都是在這兩個主軸上面\n\n4\n00:01:13,931 --> 00:01:36,508\n第一個國家這個通訊安全部長怎麼會認為說使用DeepSeek會影響到國家自通訊的一個安全影響國家安全那個很明顯我們內部有做很多測試他確實會把我們因為第一個LM本來就是可能會因為他是個大圓模型他的資料庫是在中國\n\n5\n00:01:37,508 --> 00:02:05,787\n對每一個語言模型的資料庫都在他自己的伺服器那因為在中國所以任何上面給的資料他一定回到中國那所以就是說這個我們在檢測上已經發現有這樣的問題那再加上這個我們的本來就是說我們有個危害國家中央安全產品的這樣的一個因為會回傳到中國大陸所以你們認為他是有影響到國家安全的疑慮他有治安的問題那目前\n\n6\n00:02:07,248 --> 00:02:32,458\n我們使用的通訊產品非常的多有沒有類似一樣去類似只要把訊息傳回去中國大陸就禁止的一個目前根據這個條文只要是中國產品在公部門都不能使用包括像小米手機這種東西都不能使用所以這已經是一個從2019年就立了一個法例所以只要有任何的資訊可能會回傳到\n\n7\n00:02:33,878 --> 00:02:47,203\n中國大陸華為設備不能用伺服器只要在中國大陸就是禁用的政府機關就禁用好那第二個就是我們的剛剛講的這個各自的問題各自的問題\n\n8\n00:02:50,916 --> 00:03:08,750\n目前有明確的資訊這個DeepSeek會把相關用戶的個資洩露出去嗎或是相關的訴訟有相關的判決出來過剛剛講有幾個model那個因為我們講DeepSeek上有APP版有網路版有所謂的地端版\n\n9\n00:03:09,511 --> 00:03:38,129\n那我們現在看到其他國家在進那個比如說有如果民間在禁止使用Deep-seek主要指的是APP版那我們也發現APP版的確會跟後面像Buydance這樣公司有連結但是連結裡面的資料是經過加密所以到底裡面傳什麼資料到底是廣告資料還是個人資料我們不曉得所以這個還需要再做進一步的研究但是呢就是說我們目前禁止是三個都禁止民間我們現在\n\n10\n00:03:38,669 --> 00:04:05,766\n沒有去特別去禁止就是因為因為這兩天新聞也有在討論要不要禁民間嘛對不對對民間能夠禁止還是要回到因為我們是民主法治的國家所以一定要依法行政所以我們如果要禁止一個軟體的話一定是要有法那如果它那個在民間來講現在就生一個法叫做這個個資法那個資法你要證明它是有違反個資你要收集證據所以我們現在這方面我們對所以就個資這一點跟部長討論這一點你們必須要非常的謹慎\n\n11\n00:04:06,767 --> 00:04:33,718\n因為目前為止你說自通訊軟體的各自的保護的情況怎麼樣當然我們在使用的時候都會有什麼你cookie啊笑出來什麼的但實際上我們都知道我們在使用自通訊傳聞品在用手機的時候用任何的GoogleFacebook的時候其實我們的各自都是一直被外露去給他們做商業使用的這是一個是不爭的事實那尤其在美國或者是說去年底在韓國也都有一個訴訟我記得去年底韓國好像是告Meta吧Facebook\n\n12\n00:04:34,398 --> 00:04:42,906\n那要賠償賠償幾億我忘了啦就是有一個明確的事證在就是有洩露個資然後去做商業盈利的行為所以說\n\n13\n00:04:45,762 --> 00:05:11,668\nDeepSeek有沒有可能會做洩露各自做商業行為當然有可能嘛當然有可能我知道一定有可能但是我們不能因為他有可能就是去認定他一定會洩露反而是我們時常在用的如果說我們這個速發部那麼在乎民眾的隱私的時候我們到底有沒有去對我們大家常用的Facebook或者是Google搜尋引擎我們去給他做調查我們有做過相關調查嗎如果說我們速發部那麼重視隱私對那個\n\n14\n00:05:13,968 --> 00:05:15,410\n去年底剛剛就跟部長討論到南韓就罰他不知道多少錢,忘記一百多億吧\n\n15\n00:05:36,948 --> 00:05:51,897\n已經有明確的一個施政在那邊了你不去查他結果你去查一個到目前為止還沒有還沒有具體施政的一個這個AI軟體然後懷疑他可能會洩漏個資我是覺得就是沒有一致的標準啦如果說我們速發部真的那麼在乎\n\n16\n00:05:52,737 --> 00:06:11,292\n我們國家通訊使用者的一個個資問題的話我們應該是要一視同仁我們盡量去查DeepSeek沒有問題但是你也必須要去查因為Google或Facebook我們長久以來常常搜尋什麼東西廣告就跑出來了嘛我們持續關注但是我剛才講說DeepSeek被禁用不是因為個資法是因為它\n\n17\n00:06:11,912 --> 00:06:35,240\n對但是我現在就討論在民間你們在討論要進民間這部分嘛對不對民間目前沒有進進沒有嘛對不對我只是希望我們蘇巴部未來在討論這件事情之後必須要審慎而且是公平的來做專業的審查我希望說我們蘇巴部是專業的審查以視同仁所有的產品不要因為它來自哪邊而有不同的一個差別甚至是我們擔心的事情明明在眼前就已經看到擔心的事情每天都在發生\n\n18\n00:06:36,340 --> 00:07:05,812\n民眾的資訊的個資每天都在歪樓你們視而不見結果去因為對我講我就認為去找他麻煩就是因為意識形態的關係而有不同的一個標準這是民眾的部分我希望說未來我們出發部審慎的來做一個評估至於政府部門你說因為真的政府部門你說你怕資料傳過去如果說你過去你就禁止使用華為怎樣的話好沒關係這個是政府的一個我認為這是你們的行政權這是你們的行政權我不會過度的一個干涉\n\n19\n00:07:06,212 --> 00:07:32,788\n但是畢竟目前DeepSeek的中文語言模型真的太強了如果說能夠讓我們的公務人員好好利用的話對於提升了我們的公務的效能我單單講寫公文這件事情就好了啦會有很大的幫助那當然我們也知道說我們不可能把我們的公文丟進去DeepSeek讓它回傳到對岸去嘛包括GBT我相信部長你也是不認同用任何的把任何的公文拿去語言模型去給它修這都有削弱的風險但是任何的語言模型現在都有\n\n20\n00:07:34,055 --> 00:07:52,357\n離線使用吧對不對就是那個如果像CHATGPTGP這種他們是沒有離線版但是他因為像微軟就會有另外的的措施讓你的資料比如說就在一個沙盒裡面所以對就不會不會回傳到他們伺服器嘛不會被拿去做包括DeepSync也是嘛對不對\n\n21\n00:07:54,012 --> 00:08:21,064\nDCIC基本上原則上當初我們之前那個唐鳳前唐鳳部長不就是用這種方式然後去規避了他的那個越獄的問題嗎對不對他是去就是說那是另外一個問題就是說他本身的這個所謂的safeguard治安防護做不好所以很容易去做jailbreak去挖出敏感資料或是就說那個但是這是另外一個問題像資料傳回中國然後去對\n\n22\n00:08:21,644 --> 00:08:49,363\n沒有我就是在講確認只要在離線的情況下啦其實你說現在誰沒有在用AI模型你沒有在用AI模型你在文字的一些表述上面或者是文字動考上面包括很多記者全部都在用AI在幫忙論馬都在用幫忙論文字啊包括公家機關在寫公文每天你花一個小時寫公文的時間你可能請他幫忙論一下除了錯字修正之外履歷更順減省我們的公務人員的時間啊那我希望說\n\n23\n00:08:50,524 --> 00:09:02,814\n未來我們也是可以用安全安全就是最優先的考量只要能夠我不只單純DeepSeek而是所有的語言模型在我們的公務機關只要確保他的資料沒有\n\n24\n00:09:03,723 --> 00:09:24,802\n回傳的一個風險的話它是可以離線使用的話我們的政府應該是要敞開了雙手來利用新的科技來減輕我們公務人員在文書上面處理的一個負擔我覺得這是一個AI最基本目前現階段對於我們公務同仁可以提供一個很實質的一個幫助我們最後希望是自己有自己所謂主權的AI就是我們自己的\n\n25\n00:09:25,943 --> 00:09:53,981\n當然啦你們也可以做阿對不對包括我也鼓勵你們可以做一套可以幫我們公務人員篡寫公文系統更為簡潔節省時間的一套系統嘛對不對你們能做得出來當然優先使用阿對不對但還沒有做出來之前我們也必須要敞開雙手去看人家的好處嘛不要因為他來自哪邊所以我們就去否定他而不讓我們去使用然後增進我們的工作的一個技能嘛好不好以上部長跟您做一些交流謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2079\t5842\t謝謝主席 一樣麻煩邀請我們的黃部長請部長好 部長好 這個我要問的大概跟剛剛邱老委員我進來的時候邱老委員在問的這個確GPP跟Deep-seek的人工智慧有關當然如果說剛剛有他問過在走路沒聽到的話可能再麻煩你再說一次\n27501\t53300\t其實就是我們國家現在目前禁止公務機關使用DeepSync就我個人的感覺啦這是一個非常沒有自信的一個作為啦好像我們做不出來一個比它一個好的一個中文的以中文為主的語言模型然後我們就禁止它然後不讓大家使用好像就看不到我們的缺點這樣子我覺得非常沒有自信的一種作為啦\n53760\t72910\t那在這個語言模型上面目前Deep Seek是最強的那剛剛部長有說普遍啦不管是部長還是新聞報的媒體上面大概說會禁用Deep Seek大概兩個原因第一個就是國家通訊安全第二個就是隱私嘛大部分都是在這兩個主軸上面\n73931\t96508\t第一個國家這個通訊安全部長怎麼會認為說使用Deep Seek會影響到國家自通訊的一個安全影響國家安全那個很明顯我們內部有做很多測試他確實會把我們因為第一個LM本來就是可能會因為他是個大圓模型他的資料庫是在中國\n97508\t125787\t對 每一個語言模型的資料庫都在他自己的伺服器那因為在中國所以任何上面給的資料他一定回到中國那所以就是說這個我們在檢測上已經發現有這樣的問題那再加上這個我們的本來就是說我們有個危害國家中央安全產品的這樣的一個因為會回傳到中國大陸所以你們認為他是有影響到國家安全的疑慮他有治安的問題那目前\n127248\t152458\t我們使用的通訊產品非常的多有沒有類似一樣去類似只要把訊息傳回去中國大陸就禁止的一個目前根據這個條文只要是中國產品在公部門都不能使用包括像小米手機這種東西都不能使用所以這已經是一個從2019年就立了一個法例所以只要有任何的資訊可能會回傳到\n153878\t167203\t中國大陸 華為設備不能用 伺服器只要在中國大陸就是禁用的 政府機關就禁用好那第二個就是我們的剛剛講的這個各自的問題 各自的問題\n170916\t188750\t目前有明確的資訊這個DeepSeek會把相關用戶的個資洩露出去嗎或是相關的訴訟有相關的判決出來過剛剛講有幾個model那個因為我們講DeepSeek上有APP版有網路版有所謂的地端版\n189511\t218129\t那我們現在看到其他國家在進那個比如說有如果民間在禁止使用Deep-seek主要指的是APP版那我們也發現APP版的確會跟後面像Buydance這樣公司有連結但是連結裡面的資料是經過加密所以到底裡面傳什麼資料到底是廣告資料還是個人資料我們不曉得所以這個還需要再做進一步的研究但是呢就是說我們目前禁止是三個都禁止民間我們現在\n218669\t245766\t沒有去特別去禁止就是因為因為這兩天新聞也有在討論要不要禁民間嘛對不對對 民間能夠禁止還是要回到因為我們是民主法治的國家所以一定要依法行政所以我們如果要禁止一個軟體的話一定是要有法那如果它那個在民間來講現在就生一個法叫做這個個資法那個資法你要證明它是有違反個資你要收集證據所以我們現在這方面我們對 所以就個資這一點跟部長討論這一點你們必須要非常的謹慎\n246767\t273718\t因為目前為止你說自通訊軟體的各自的保護的情況怎麼樣當然我們在使用的時候都會有什麼你cookie啊 笑出來什麼的但實際上我們都知道我們在使用自通訊傳聞品在用手機的時候用任何的Google Facebook的時候其實我們的各自都是一直被外露去給他們做商業使用的這是一個是不爭的事實那尤其在美國或者是說去年底在韓國也都有一個訴訟我記得去年底韓國好像是告Meta吧 Facebook\n274398\t282906\t那要賠償賠償幾億我忘了啦就是有一個明確的事證在就是有洩露個資然後去做商業盈利的行為所以說\n285762\t311668\tDeepSeek有沒有可能會做洩露各自做商業行為當然有可能嘛當然有可能我知道一定有可能但是我們不能因為他有可能就是去認定他一定會洩露反而是我們時常在用的如果說我們這個速發部那麼在乎民眾的隱私的時候我們到底有沒有去對我們大家常用的Facebook或者是Google搜尋引擎我們去給他做調查我們有做過相關調查嗎如果說我們速發部那麼重視隱私對那個\n313968\t315410\t去年底剛剛就跟部長討論到南韓就罰他不知道多少錢,忘記一百多億吧\n336948\t351897\t已經有明確的一個施政在那邊了你不去查他結果你去查一個到目前為止還沒有還沒有具體施政的一個這個AI軟體然後懷疑他可能會洩漏個資我是覺得就是沒有一致的標準啦如果說我們速發部真的那麼在乎\n352737\t371292\t我們國家通訊使用者的一個個資問題的話我們應該是要一視同仁我們盡量去查Deep Seek沒有問題但是你也必須要去查因為Google或Facebook我們長久以來常常搜尋什麼東西廣告就跑出來了嘛我們持續關注但是我剛才講說Deep Seek被禁用不是因為個資法是因為它\n371912\t395240\t對但是我現在就討論在民間你們在討論要進民間這部分嘛對不對民間目前沒有進進沒有嘛對不對我只是希望我們蘇巴部未來在討論這件事情之後必須要審慎而且是公平的來做專業的審查我希望說我們蘇巴部是專業的審查以視同仁所有的產品不要因為它來自哪邊而有不同的一個差別甚至是我們擔心的事情明明在眼前就已經看到擔心的事情每天都在發生\n396340\t425812\t民眾的資訊的個資每天都在歪樓你們視而不見結果去因為對我講我就認為去找他麻煩就是因為意識形態的關係而有不同的一個標準這是民眾的部分我希望說未來我們出發部審慎的來做一個評估至於政府部門你說因為真的政府部門你說你怕資料傳過去如果說你過去你就禁止使用華為怎樣的話好沒關係這個是政府的一個我認為這是你們的行政權這是你們的行政權我不會過度的一個干涉\n426212\t452788\t但是畢竟目前DeepSeek的中文語言模型真的太強了如果說能夠讓我們的公務人員好好利用的話對於提升了我們的公務的效能我單單講寫公文這件事情就好了啦會有很大的幫助那當然我們也知道說我們不可能把我們的公文丟進去DeepSeek讓它回傳到對岸去嘛包括GBT我相信部長你也是不認同用任何的把任何的公文拿去語言模型去給它修這都有削弱的風險但是任何的語言模型現在都有\n454055\t472357\t離線使用吧對不對就是那個如果像CHAT GPTGP這種他們是沒有離線版但是他因為像微軟就會有另外的的措施讓你的資料比如說就在一個沙盒裡面所以對就不會不會回傳到他們伺服器嘛不會被拿去做包括DeepSync也是嘛對不對\n474012\t501064\tDCIC基本上原則上當初我們之前那個唐鳳前唐鳳部長不就是用這種方式然後去規避了他的那個越獄的問題嗎對不對他是去就是說那是另外一個問題就是說他本身的這個所謂的safe guard治安防護做不好所以很容易去做jailbreak去挖出敏感資料或是就說那個但是這是另外一個問題像資料傳回中國然後去對\n501644\t529363\t沒有我就是在講確認只要在離線的情況下啦其實你說現在誰沒有在用AI模型你沒有在用AI模型你在文字的一些表述上面或者是文字動考上面包括很多記者全部都在用AI在幫忙論馬都在用幫忙論文字啊包括公家機關在寫公文每天你花一個小時寫公文的時間你可能請他幫忙論一下除了錯字修正之外履歷更順減省我們的公務人員的時間啊那我希望說\n530524\t542814\t未來我們也是可以用安全 安全就是最優先的考量 只要能夠我不只單純DeepSeek 而是所有的語言模型在我們的公務機關 只要確保他的資料沒有\n543723\t564802\t回傳的一個風險的話它是可以離線使用的話我們的政府應該是要敞開了雙手來利用新的科技來減輕我們公務人員在文書上面處理的一個負擔我覺得這是一個AI最基本目前現階段對於我們公務同仁可以提供一個很實質的一個幫助我們最後希望是自己有自己所謂主權的AI就是我們自己的\n565943\t593981\t當然啦你們也可以做阿對不對包括我也鼓勵你們可以做一套可以幫我們公務人員篡寫公文系統更為簡潔節省時間的一套系統嘛對不對你們能做得出來當然優先使用阿對不對但還沒有做出來之前我們也必須要敞開雙手去看人家的好處嘛不要因為他來自哪邊所以我們就去否定他而不讓我們去使用然後增進我們的工作的一個技能嘛好不好以上 部長跟您做一些交流 謝謝\n595162\t595333\t謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 一樣麻煩邀請我們的黃部長請部長好 部長好 這個我要問的大概跟剛剛邱老委員我進來的時候邱老委員在問的這個確GPP跟Deep-seek的人工智慧有關當然如果說剛剛有他問過在走路沒聽到的話可能再麻煩你再說一次\n其實就是我們國家現在目前禁止公務機關使用DeepSync就我個人的感覺啦這是一個非常沒有自信的一個作為啦好像我們做不出來一個比它一個好的一個中文的以中文為主的語言模型然後我們就禁止它然後不讓大家使用好像就看不到我們的缺點這樣子我覺得非常沒有自信的一種作為啦\n那在這個語言模型上面目前Deep Seek是最強的那剛剛部長有說普遍啦不管是部長還是新聞報的媒體上面大概說會禁用Deep Seek大概兩個原因第一個就是國家通訊安全第二個就是隱私嘛大部分都是在這兩個主軸上面\n第一個國家這個通訊安全部長怎麼會認為說使用Deep Seek會影響到國家自通訊的一個安全影響國家安全那個很明顯我們內部有做很多測試他確實會把我們因為第一個LM本來就是可能會因為他是個大圓模型他的資料庫是在中國\n對 每一個語言模型的資料庫都在他自己的伺服器那因為在中國所以任何上面給的資料他一定回到中國那所以就是說這個我們在檢測上已經發現有這樣的問題那再加上這個我們的本來就是說我們有個危害國家中央安全產品的這樣的一個因為會回傳到中國大陸所以你們認為他是有影響到國家安全的疑慮他有治安的問題那目前\n我們使用的通訊產品非常的多有沒有類似一樣去類似只要把訊息傳回去中國大陸就禁止的一個目前根據這個條文只要是中國產品在公部門都不能使用包括像小米手機這種東西都不能使用所以這已經是一個從2019年就立了一個法例所以只要有任何的資訊可能會回傳到\n中國大陸 華為設備不能用 伺服器只要在中國大陸就是禁用的 政府機關就禁用好那第二個就是我們的剛剛講的這個各自的問題 各自的問題\n目前有明確的資訊這個DeepSeek會把相關用戶的個資洩露出去嗎或是相關的訴訟有相關的判決出來過剛剛講有幾個model那個因為我們講DeepSeek上有APP版有網路版有所謂的地端版\n那我們現在看到其他國家在進那個比如說有如果民間在禁止使用Deep-seek主要指的是APP版那我們也發現APP版的確會跟後面像Buydance這樣公司有連結但是連結裡面的資料是經過加密所以到底裡面傳什麼資料到底是廣告資料還是個人資料我們不曉得所以這個還需要再做進一步的研究但是呢就是說我們目前禁止是三個都禁止民間我們現在\n沒有去特別去禁止就是因為因為這兩天新聞也有在討論要不要禁民間嘛對不對對 民間能夠禁止還是要回到因為我們是民主法治的國家所以一定要依法行政所以我們如果要禁止一個軟體的話一定是要有法那如果它那個在民間來講現在就生一個法叫做這個個資法那個資法你要證明它是有違反個資你要收集證據所以我們現在這方面我們對 所以就個資這一點跟部長討論這一點你們必須要非常的謹慎\n因為目前為止你說自通訊軟體的各自的保護的情況怎麼樣當然我們在使用的時候都會有什麼你cookie啊 笑出來什麼的但實際上我們都知道我們在使用自通訊傳聞品在用手機的時候用任何的Google Facebook的時候其實我們的各自都是一直被外露去給他們做商業使用的這是一個是不爭的事實那尤其在美國或者是說去年底在韓國也都有一個訴訟我記得去年底韓國好像是告Meta吧 Facebook\n那要賠償賠償幾億我忘了啦就是有一個明確的事證在就是有洩露個資然後去做商業盈利的行為所以說\nDeepSeek有沒有可能會做洩露各自做商業行為當然有可能嘛當然有可能我知道一定有可能但是我們不能因為他有可能就是去認定他一定會洩露反而是我們時常在用的如果說我們這個速發部那麼在乎民眾的隱私的時候我們到底有沒有去對我們大家常用的Facebook或者是Google搜尋引擎我們去給他做調查我們有做過相關調查嗎如果說我們速發部那麼重視隱私對那個\n去年底剛剛就跟部長討論到南韓就罰他不知道多少錢,忘記一百多億吧\n已經有明確的一個施政在那邊了你不去查他結果你去查一個到目前為止還沒有還沒有具體施政的一個這個AI軟體然後懷疑他可能會洩漏個資我是覺得就是沒有一致的標準啦如果說我們速發部真的那麼在乎\n我們國家通訊使用者的一個個資問題的話我們應該是要一視同仁我們盡量去查Deep Seek沒有問題但是你也必須要去查因為Google或Facebook我們長久以來常常搜尋什麼東西廣告就跑出來了嘛我們持續關注但是我剛才講說Deep Seek被禁用不是因為個資法是因為它\n對但是我現在就討論在民間你們在討論要進民間這部分嘛對不對民間目前沒有進進沒有嘛對不對我只是希望我們蘇巴部未來在討論這件事情之後必須要審慎而且是公平的來做專業的審查我希望說我們蘇巴部是專業的審查以視同仁所有的產品不要因為它來自哪邊而有不同的一個差別甚至是我們擔心的事情明明在眼前就已經看到擔心的事情每天都在發生\n民眾的資訊的個資每天都在歪樓你們視而不見結果去因為對我講我就認為去找他麻煩就是因為意識形態的關係而有不同的一個標準這是民眾的部分我希望說未來我們出發部審慎的來做一個評估至於政府部門你說因為真的政府部門你說你怕資料傳過去如果說你過去你就禁止使用華為怎樣的話好沒關係這個是政府的一個我認為這是你們的行政權這是你們的行政權我不會過度的一個干涉\n但是畢竟目前DeepSeek的中文語言模型真的太強了如果說能夠讓我們的公務人員好好利用的話對於提升了我們的公務的效能我單單講寫公文這件事情就好了啦會有很大的幫助那當然我們也知道說我們不可能把我們的公文丟進去DeepSeek讓它回傳到對岸去嘛包括GBT我相信部長你也是不認同用任何的把任何的公文拿去語言模型去給它修這都有削弱的風險但是任何的語言模型現在都有\n離線使用吧對不對就是那個如果像CHAT GPTGP這種他們是沒有離線版但是他因為像微軟就會有另外的的措施讓你的資料比如說就在一個沙盒裡面所以對就不會不會回傳到他們伺服器嘛不會被拿去做包括DeepSync也是嘛對不對\nDCIC基本上原則上當初我們之前那個唐鳳前唐鳳部長不就是用這種方式然後去規避了他的那個越獄的問題嗎對不對他是去就是說那是另外一個問題就是說他本身的這個所謂的safe guard治安防護做不好所以很容易去做jailbreak去挖出敏感資料或是就說那個但是這是另外一個問題像資料傳回中國然後去對\n沒有我就是在講確認只要在離線的情況下啦其實你說現在誰沒有在用AI模型你沒有在用AI模型你在文字的一些表述上面或者是文字動考上面包括很多記者全部都在用AI在幫忙論馬都在用幫忙論文字啊包括公家機關在寫公文每天你花一個小時寫公文的時間你可能請他幫忙論一下除了錯字修正之外履歷更順減省我們的公務人員的時間啊那我希望說\n未來我們也是可以用安全 安全就是最優先的考量 只要能夠我不只單純DeepSeek 而是所有的語言模型在我們的公務機關 只要確保他的資料沒有\n回傳的一個風險的話它是可以離線使用的話我們的政府應該是要敞開了雙手來利用新的科技來減輕我們公務人員在文書上面處理的一個負擔我覺得這是一個AI最基本目前現階段對於我們公務同仁可以提供一個很實質的一個幫助我們最後希望是自己有自己所謂主權的AI就是我們自己的\n當然啦你們也可以做阿對不對包括我也鼓勵你們可以做一套可以幫我們公務人員篡寫公文系統更為簡潔節省時間的一套系統嘛對不對你們能做得出來當然優先使用阿對不對但還沒有做出來之前我們也必須要敞開雙手去看人家的好處嘛不要因為他來自哪邊所以我們就去否定他而不讓我們去使用然後增進我們的工作的一個技能嘛好不好以上 部長跟您做一些交流 謝謝\n謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.079 --> 00:05.842\n謝謝主席一樣麻煩邀請我們的黃部長請部長好部長好這個我要問的大概跟剛剛邱老委員我進來的時候邱老委員在問的這個確GPP跟Deep-seek的人工智慧有關當然如果說剛剛有他問過在走路沒聽到的話可能再麻煩你再說一次\n\n00:27.501 --> 00:53.300\n其實就是我們國家現在目前禁止公務機關使用DeepSync就我個人的感覺啦這是一個非常沒有自信的一個作為啦好像我們做不出來一個比它一個好的一個中文的以中文為主的語言模型然後我們就禁止它然後不讓大家使用好像就看不到我們的缺點這樣子我覺得非常沒有自信的一種作為啦\n\n00:53.760 --> 01:12.910\n那在這個語言模型上面目前DeepSeek是最強的那剛剛部長有說普遍啦不管是部長還是新聞報的媒體上面大概說會禁用DeepSeek大概兩個原因第一個就是國家通訊安全第二個就是隱私嘛大部分都是在這兩個主軸上面\n\n01:13.931 --> 01:36.508\n第一個國家這個通訊安全部長怎麼會認為說使用DeepSeek會影響到國家自通訊的一個安全影響國家安全那個很明顯我們內部有做很多測試他確實會把我們因為第一個LM本來就是可能會因為他是個大圓模型他的資料庫是在中國\n\n01:37.508 --> 02:05.787\n對每一個語言模型的資料庫都在他自己的伺服器那因為在中國所以任何上面給的資料他一定回到中國那所以就是說這個我們在檢測上已經發現有這樣的問題那再加上這個我們的本來就是說我們有個危害國家中央安全產品的這樣的一個因為會回傳到中國大陸所以你們認為他是有影響到國家安全的疑慮他有治安的問題那目前\n\n02:07.248 --> 02:32.458\n我們使用的通訊產品非常的多有沒有類似一樣去類似只要把訊息傳回去中國大陸就禁止的一個目前根據這個條文只要是中國產品在公部門都不能使用包括像小米手機這種東西都不能使用所以這已經是一個從2019年就立了一個法例所以只要有任何的資訊可能會回傳到\n\n02:33.878 --> 02:47.203\n中國大陸華為設備不能用伺服器只要在中國大陸就是禁用的政府機關就禁用好那第二個就是我們的剛剛講的這個各自的問題各自的問題\n\n02:50.916 --> 03:08.750\n目前有明確的資訊這個DeepSeek會把相關用戶的個資洩露出去嗎或是相關的訴訟有相關的判決出來過剛剛講有幾個model那個因為我們講DeepSeek上有APP版有網路版有所謂的地端版\n\n03:09.511 --> 03:38.129\n那我們現在看到其他國家在進那個比如說有如果民間在禁止使用Deep-seek主要指的是APP版那我們也發現APP版的確會跟後面像Buydance這樣公司有連結但是連結裡面的資料是經過加密所以到底裡面傳什麼資料到底是廣告資料還是個人資料我們不曉得所以這個還需要再做進一步的研究但是呢就是說我們目前禁止是三個都禁止民間我們現在\n\n03:38.669 --> 04:05.766\n沒有去特別去禁止就是因為因為這兩天新聞也有在討論要不要禁民間嘛對不對對民間能夠禁止還是要回到因為我們是民主法治的國家所以一定要依法行政所以我們如果要禁止一個軟體的話一定是要有法那如果它那個在民間來講現在就生一個法叫做這個個資法那個資法你要證明它是有違反個資你要收集證據所以我們現在這方面我們對所以就個資這一點跟部長討論這一點你們必須要非常的謹慎\n\n04:06.767 --> 04:33.718\n因為目前為止你說自通訊軟體的各自的保護的情況怎麼樣當然我們在使用的時候都會有什麼你cookie啊笑出來什麼的但實際上我們都知道我們在使用自通訊傳聞品在用手機的時候用任何的GoogleFacebook的時候其實我們的各自都是一直被外露去給他們做商業使用的這是一個是不爭的事實那尤其在美國或者是說去年底在韓國也都有一個訴訟我記得去年底韓國好像是告Meta吧Facebook\n\n04:34.398 --> 04:42.906\n那要賠償賠償幾億我忘了啦就是有一個明確的事證在就是有洩露個資然後去做商業盈利的行為所以說\n\n04:45.762 --> 05:11.668\nDeepSeek有沒有可能會做洩露各自做商業行為當然有可能嘛當然有可能我知道一定有可能但是我們不能因為他有可能就是去認定他一定會洩露反而是我們時常在用的如果說我們這個速發部那麼在乎民眾的隱私的時候我們到底有沒有去對我們大家常用的Facebook或者是Google搜尋引擎我們去給他做調查我們有做過相關調查嗎如果說我們速發部那麼重視隱私對那個\n\n05:13.968 --> 05:15.410\n去年底剛剛就跟部長討論到南韓就罰他不知道多少錢,忘記一百多億吧\n\n05:36.948 --> 05:51.897\n已經有明確的一個施政在那邊了你不去查他結果你去查一個到目前為止還沒有還沒有具體施政的一個這個AI軟體然後懷疑他可能會洩漏個資我是覺得就是沒有一致的標準啦如果說我們速發部真的那麼在乎\n\n05:52.737 --> 06:11.292\n我們國家通訊使用者的一個個資問題的話我們應該是要一視同仁我們盡量去查DeepSeek沒有問題但是你也必須要去查因為Google或Facebook我們長久以來常常搜尋什麼東西廣告就跑出來了嘛我們持續關注但是我剛才講說DeepSeek被禁用不是因為個資法是因為它\n\n06:11.912 --> 06:35.240\n對但是我現在就討論在民間你們在討論要進民間這部分嘛對不對民間目前沒有進進沒有嘛對不對我只是希望我們蘇巴部未來在討論這件事情之後必須要審慎而且是公平的來做專業的審查我希望說我們蘇巴部是專業的審查以視同仁所有的產品不要因為它來自哪邊而有不同的一個差別甚至是我們擔心的事情明明在眼前就已經看到擔心的事情每天都在發生\n\n06:36.340 --> 07:05.812\n民眾的資訊的個資每天都在歪樓你們視而不見結果去因為對我講我就認為去找他麻煩就是因為意識形態的關係而有不同的一個標準這是民眾的部分我希望說未來我們出發部審慎的來做一個評估至於政府部門你說因為真的政府部門你說你怕資料傳過去如果說你過去你就禁止使用華為怎樣的話好沒關係這個是政府的一個我認為這是你們的行政權這是你們的行政權我不會過度的一個干涉\n\n07:06.212 --> 07:32.788\n但是畢竟目前DeepSeek的中文語言模型真的太強了如果說能夠讓我們的公務人員好好利用的話對於提升了我們的公務的效能我單單講寫公文這件事情就好了啦會有很大的幫助那當然我們也知道說我們不可能把我們的公文丟進去DeepSeek讓它回傳到對岸去嘛包括GBT我相信部長你也是不認同用任何的把任何的公文拿去語言模型去給它修這都有削弱的風險但是任何的語言模型現在都有\n\n07:34.055 --> 07:52.357\n離線使用吧對不對就是那個如果像CHATGPTGP這種他們是沒有離線版但是他因為像微軟就會有另外的的措施讓你的資料比如說就在一個沙盒裡面所以對就不會不會回傳到他們伺服器嘛不會被拿去做包括DeepSync也是嘛對不對\n\n07:54.012 --> 08:21.064\nDCIC基本上原則上當初我們之前那個唐鳳前唐鳳部長不就是用這種方式然後去規避了他的那個越獄的問題嗎對不對他是去就是說那是另外一個問題就是說他本身的這個所謂的safeguard治安防護做不好所以很容易去做jailbreak去挖出敏感資料或是就說那個但是這是另外一個問題像資料傳回中國然後去對\n\n08:21.644 --> 08:49.363\n沒有我就是在講確認只要在離線的情況下啦其實你說現在誰沒有在用AI模型你沒有在用AI模型你在文字的一些表述上面或者是文字動考上面包括很多記者全部都在用AI在幫忙論馬都在用幫忙論文字啊包括公家機關在寫公文每天你花一個小時寫公文的時間你可能請他幫忙論一下除了錯字修正之外履歷更順減省我們的公務人員的時間啊那我希望說\n\n08:50.524 --> 09:02.814\n未來我們也是可以用安全安全就是最優先的考量只要能夠我不只單純DeepSeek而是所有的語言模型在我們的公務機關只要確保他的資料沒有\n\n09:03.723 --> 09:24.802\n回傳的一個風險的話它是可以離線使用的話我們的政府應該是要敞開了雙手來利用新的科技來減輕我們公務人員在文書上面處理的一個負擔我覺得這是一個AI最基本目前現階段對於我們公務同仁可以提供一個很實質的一個幫助我們最後希望是自己有自己所謂主權的AI就是我們自己的\n\n09:25.943 --> 09:53.981\n當然啦你們也可以做阿對不對包括我也鼓勵你們可以做一套可以幫我們公務人員篡寫公文系統更為簡潔節省時間的一套系統嘛對不對你們能做得出來當然優先使用阿對不對但還沒有做出來之前我們也必須要敞開雙手去看人家的好處嘛不要因為他來自哪邊所以我們就去否定他而不讓我們去使用然後增進我們的工作的一個技能嘛好不好以上部長跟您做一些交流謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.079,"end":5.842,"text":"謝謝主席 一樣麻煩邀請我們的黃部長請部長好 部長好 這個我要問的大概跟剛剛邱老委員我進來的時候邱老委員在問的這個確GPP跟Deep-seek的人工智慧有關當然如果說剛剛有他問過在走路沒聽到的話可能再麻煩你再說一次"},{"start":27.501,"end":53.3,"text":"其實就是我們國家現在目前禁止公務機關使用DeepSync就我個人的感覺啦這是一個非常沒有自信的一個作為啦好像我們做不出來一個比它一個好的一個中文的以中文為主的語言模型然後我們就禁止它然後不讓大家使用好像就看不到我們的缺點這樣子我覺得非常沒有自信的一種作為啦"},{"start":53.76,"end":72.91,"text":"那在這個語言模型上面目前Deep Seek是最強的那剛剛部長有說普遍啦不管是部長還是新聞報的媒體上面大概說會禁用Deep Seek大概兩個原因第一個就是國家通訊安全第二個就是隱私嘛大部分都是在這兩個主軸上面"},{"start":73.931,"end":96.508,"text":"第一個國家這個通訊安全部長怎麼會認為說使用Deep Seek會影響到國家自通訊的一個安全影響國家安全那個很明顯我們內部有做很多測試他確實會把我們因為第一個LM本來就是可能會因為他是個大圓模型他的資料庫是在中國"},{"start":97.508,"end":125.787,"text":"對 每一個語言模型的資料庫都在他自己的伺服器那因為在中國所以任何上面給的資料他一定回到中國那所以就是說這個我們在檢測上已經發現有這樣的問題那再加上這個我們的本來就是說我們有個危害國家中央安全產品的這樣的一個因為會回傳到中國大陸所以你們認為他是有影響到國家安全的疑慮他有治安的問題那目前"},{"start":127.248,"end":152.458,"text":"我們使用的通訊產品非常的多有沒有類似一樣去類似只要把訊息傳回去中國大陸就禁止的一個目前根據這個條文只要是中國產品在公部門都不能使用包括像小米手機這種東西都不能使用所以這已經是一個從2019年就立了一個法例所以只要有任何的資訊可能會回傳到"},{"start":153.878,"end":167.203,"text":"中國大陸 華為設備不能用 伺服器只要在中國大陸就是禁用的 政府機關就禁用好那第二個就是我們的剛剛講的這個各自的問題 各自的問題"},{"start":170.916,"end":188.75,"text":"目前有明確的資訊這個DeepSeek會把相關用戶的個資洩露出去嗎或是相關的訴訟有相關的判決出來過剛剛講有幾個model那個因為我們講DeepSeek上有APP版有網路版有所謂的地端版"},{"start":189.511,"end":218.129,"text":"那我們現在看到其他國家在進那個比如說有如果民間在禁止使用Deep-seek主要指的是APP版那我們也發現APP版的確會跟後面像Buydance這樣公司有連結但是連結裡面的資料是經過加密所以到底裡面傳什麼資料到底是廣告資料還是個人資料我們不曉得所以這個還需要再做進一步的研究但是呢就是說我們目前禁止是三個都禁止民間我們現在"},{"start":218.669,"end":245.766,"text":"沒有去特別去禁止就是因為因為這兩天新聞也有在討論要不要禁民間嘛對不對對 民間能夠禁止還是要回到因為我們是民主法治的國家所以一定要依法行政所以我們如果要禁止一個軟體的話一定是要有法那如果它那個在民間來講現在就生一個法叫做這個個資法那個資法你要證明它是有違反個資你要收集證據所以我們現在這方面我們對 所以就個資這一點跟部長討論這一點你們必須要非常的謹慎"},{"start":246.767,"end":273.718,"text":"因為目前為止你說自通訊軟體的各自的保護的情況怎麼樣當然我們在使用的時候都會有什麼你cookie啊 笑出來什麼的但實際上我們都知道我們在使用自通訊傳聞品在用手機的時候用任何的Google Facebook的時候其實我們的各自都是一直被外露去給他們做商業使用的這是一個是不爭的事實那尤其在美國或者是說去年底在韓國也都有一個訴訟我記得去年底韓國好像是告Meta吧 Facebook"},{"start":274.398,"end":282.906,"text":"那要賠償賠償幾億我忘了啦就是有一個明確的事證在就是有洩露個資然後去做商業盈利的行為所以說"},{"start":285.762,"end":311.668,"text":"DeepSeek有沒有可能會做洩露各自做商業行為當然有可能嘛當然有可能我知道一定有可能但是我們不能因為他有可能就是去認定他一定會洩露反而是我們時常在用的如果說我們這個速發部那麼在乎民眾的隱私的時候我們到底有沒有去對我們大家常用的Facebook或者是Google搜尋引擎我們去給他做調查我們有做過相關調查嗎如果說我們速發部那麼重視隱私對那個"},{"start":313.968,"end":315.41,"text":"去年底剛剛就跟部長討論到南韓就罰他不知道多少錢,忘記一百多億吧"},{"start":336.948,"end":351.897,"text":"已經有明確的一個施政在那邊了你不去查他結果你去查一個到目前為止還沒有還沒有具體施政的一個這個AI軟體然後懷疑他可能會洩漏個資我是覺得就是沒有一致的標準啦如果說我們速發部真的那麼在乎"},{"start":352.737,"end":371.292,"text":"我們國家通訊使用者的一個個資問題的話我們應該是要一視同仁我們盡量去查Deep Seek沒有問題但是你也必須要去查因為Google或Facebook我們長久以來常常搜尋什麼東西廣告就跑出來了嘛我們持續關注但是我剛才講說Deep Seek被禁用不是因為個資法是因為它"},{"start":371.912,"end":395.24,"text":"對但是我現在就討論在民間你們在討論要進民間這部分嘛對不對民間目前沒有進進沒有嘛對不對我只是希望我們蘇巴部未來在討論這件事情之後必須要審慎而且是公平的來做專業的審查我希望說我們蘇巴部是專業的審查以視同仁所有的產品不要因為它來自哪邊而有不同的一個差別甚至是我們擔心的事情明明在眼前就已經看到擔心的事情每天都在發生"},{"start":396.34,"end":425.812,"text":"民眾的資訊的個資每天都在歪樓你們視而不見結果去因為對我講我就認為去找他麻煩就是因為意識形態的關係而有不同的一個標準這是民眾的部分我希望說未來我們出發部審慎的來做一個評估至於政府部門你說因為真的政府部門你說你怕資料傳過去如果說你過去你就禁止使用華為怎樣的話好沒關係這個是政府的一個我認為這是你們的行政權這是你們的行政權我不會過度的一個干涉"},{"start":426.212,"end":452.788,"text":"但是畢竟目前DeepSeek的中文語言模型真的太強了如果說能夠讓我們的公務人員好好利用的話對於提升了我們的公務的效能我單單講寫公文這件事情就好了啦會有很大的幫助那當然我們也知道說我們不可能把我們的公文丟進去DeepSeek讓它回傳到對岸去嘛包括GBT我相信部長你也是不認同用任何的把任何的公文拿去語言模型去給它修這都有削弱的風險但是任何的語言模型現在都有"},{"start":454.055,"end":472.357,"text":"離線使用吧對不對就是那個如果像CHAT GPTGP這種他們是沒有離線版但是他因為像微軟就會有另外的的措施讓你的資料比如說就在一個沙盒裡面所以對就不會不會回傳到他們伺服器嘛不會被拿去做包括DeepSync也是嘛對不對"},{"start":474.012,"end":501.064,"text":"DCIC基本上原則上當初我們之前那個唐鳳前唐鳳部長不就是用這種方式然後去規避了他的那個越獄的問題嗎對不對他是去就是說那是另外一個問題就是說他本身的這個所謂的safe guard治安防護做不好所以很容易去做jailbreak去挖出敏感資料或是就說那個但是這是另外一個問題像資料傳回中國然後去對"},{"start":501.644,"end":529.363,"text":"沒有我就是在講確認只要在離線的情況下啦其實你說現在誰沒有在用AI模型你沒有在用AI模型你在文字的一些表述上面或者是文字動考上面包括很多記者全部都在用AI在幫忙論馬都在用幫忙論文字啊包括公家機關在寫公文每天你花一個小時寫公文的時間你可能請他幫忙論一下除了錯字修正之外履歷更順減省我們的公務人員的時間啊那我希望說"},{"start":530.524,"end":542.814,"text":"未來我們也是可以用安全 安全就是最優先的考量 只要能夠我不只單純DeepSeek 而是所有的語言模型在我們的公務機關 只要確保他的資料沒有"},{"start":543.723,"end":564.802,"text":"回傳的一個風險的話它是可以離線使用的話我們的政府應該是要敞開了雙手來利用新的科技來減輕我們公務人員在文書上面處理的一個負擔我覺得這是一個AI最基本目前現階段對於我們公務同仁可以提供一個很實質的一個幫助我們最後希望是自己有自己所謂主權的AI就是我們自己的"},{"start":565.943,"end":593.981,"text":"當然啦你們也可以做阿對不對包括我也鼓勵你們可以做一套可以幫我們公務人員篡寫公文系統更為簡潔節省時間的一套系統嘛對不對你們能做得出來當然優先使用阿對不對但還沒有做出來之前我們也必須要敞開雙手去看人家的好處嘛不要因為他來自哪邊所以我們就去否定他而不讓我們去使用然後增進我們的工作的一個技能嘛好不好以上 部長跟您做一些交流 謝謝"},{"start":595.162,"end":595.333,"text":"謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":506,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（11時40分）謝謝主席，一樣麻煩邀請黃部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：廖委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：部長好。我要問的大概跟剛剛我進來的時候邱若華委員在問的ChatGPT跟DeepSeek人工智慧有關。如果有他問過的，我在走路沒聽到的話，可能麻煩你再說一次。","我們國家目前禁止公務機關使用DeepSeek，就我個人的感覺，這是一個非常沒有自信的作為，好像我們做不出來一個比它好、以中文為主的語言模型，然後我們就禁止它。不讓大家使用，好像就看不到我們的缺點，我覺得這是非常沒有自信的一種作為。","在語言模型方面，目前DeepSeek是最強的。不管是部長還是新聞報導媒體上面，大家普遍都說會禁用DeepSeek大概有兩個原因，第一個就是國家通訊安全，第二個就是隱私，大部分都是在這兩個主軸上面。第一個國家通訊安全，部長怎麼會認為使用DeepSeek會影響到國家資通訊的安全、影響國家安全？"],["黃部長彥男：那個很明顯，我們內部有做很多測試，它確實會把我們……第一個，因為LLM是一個大語言模型，它的資料庫是在中國……"],["廖委員先翔：對，每一個語言模型的資料庫都在它自己的伺服器。"],["黃部長彥男：因為在中國，所以任何上面給的資料一定回到中國……"],["廖委員先翔：對。"],["黃部長彥男：所以我們在檢測上已經發現有這樣的問題，再加上我們本來就有一個危害國家資通安全產品的……"],["廖委員先翔：因為會回傳到中國大陸，所以你們認為它是有影響到國家安全的疑慮？"],["黃部長彥男：它有資安的問題。"],["廖委員先翔：目前我們使用的資通訊產品非常地多，有沒有類似只要把訊息傳回去中國大陸，就禁止的……"],["黃部長彥男：我們目前根據這個條文，只要是中國產品，在公部門都不能使用，包括像小米手機這種東西都不能使用，所以這已經是從2019年就立的一個法規。"],["廖委員先翔：所以只要有任何的資訊可能會回傳到中國大陸……"],["黃部長彥男：華為設備不能用，小米手機……"],["廖委員先翔：伺服器只要在中國大陸，就是禁用的？"],["黃部長彥男：對，政府機關就禁用。"],["廖委員先翔：好。第二個就是我們剛剛講的個資的問題。目前有明確的資訊，就是DeepSeek會把相關用戶的個資洩漏出去嗎？或者是相關的訴訟有相關的判決出來過？"],["黃部長彥男：剛剛講有幾個model，因為我們講DeepSeek有app版、有網路版、有所謂的地端版，我們現在看到其他國家民間在禁止使用DeepSeek，主要指的是app版。我們也發現app版的確會跟後面像ByteDance這樣的公司有連結，但是連結裡面的資料是經過加密。到底裡面傳什麼資料，到底是廣告資料還是個人資料，我們不曉得，所以這個還需要再做進一步的研究。但是我們目前禁止是3個都禁止，民間我們現在沒有特別去禁止，就是因為……"],["廖委員先翔：這兩天新聞也有在討論要不要禁民間，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對。民間能夠禁止還是要回到……因為我們是民主法治的國家，所以一定要依法行政。我們如果要禁止一個軟體的話，一定是要有法。如果在民間來講，現在就只剩一個法叫做個資法。"],["廖委員先翔：對。"],["黃部長彥男：個資法的話，你要證明它違反個資，你要蒐集證據，所以現在這方面我們還在研究。"],["廖委員先翔：對。所以就個資這一點跟部長討論。這一點你們必須要非常地謹慎，因為目前為止，你說資通訊軟體個資的保護情況怎麼樣，當然我們在使用的時候都會有什麼Cookie、消除什麼的，但實際上我們都知道我們在使用資通訊產品、在用手機的時候，或是在用任何的google、Facebook的時候，其實我們的個資都是一直被外漏去給他們做商業使用的。這是一個不爭的事實。"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["廖委員先翔：尤其在美國或者是去年底在韓國，也都有一個訴訟，我記得去年底韓國好像是告Meta吧？Facebook，要賠償幾億，我忘了。當時有一個明確的事證，就是有洩漏個資，然後去做商業營利的行為。DeepSeek有沒有可能會洩漏個資做商業行為？當然有可能嘛！我知道一定有可能。但是我們不能因為它有可能，就去認定它一定會洩漏，反而是我們時常在用的……如果真的數發部那麼在乎民眾的隱私，我們到底有沒有去對大家常用的Facebook或是Google的搜尋引擎做調查？如果數發部那麼重視隱私，我們有做過相關調查嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我剛剛講過，他們這些大的媒體公司在資安跟個資保護方面，當然要在這麼多國家使用，應該是他們目前是……我們並沒有看到Facebook有大量個資外洩的例子。"],["廖委員先翔：剛剛就跟部長討論到，去年底南韓就罰它不知道多少錢。我忘記，一百多億吧？"],["黃部長彥男：南韓……"],["廖委員先翔：已經有明確的一個事證在那邊了，你不去查它，結果你去查一個到目前為止還沒有具體事證的AI軟體，然後懷疑它可能會洩漏個資。我是覺得沒有一致的標準啦！如果數發部真的那麼在乎我們國家通訊使用者的個資問題的話，我們應該是要一視同仁。我們今天要去查DeepSeek，沒有問題！但是你也必須要去查Google或Facebook。我們長久以來常常搜尋什麼東西，廣告就跑出來了嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：我們持續關注。但是我剛剛講，DeepSeek被禁用不是因為個資法，是因為它……"],["廖委員先翔：對，我現在談的就是你們在討論要禁民間那部分，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：民間目前沒有禁止。"],["廖委員先翔：沒有嘛！對不對？我只是希望數發部未來在討論這件事情的時候，必須要審慎而且是公平地來做專業的審查。我是希望數發部是專業的審查，一視同仁，所有產品不要因為它來自哪邊，而有一個不同的差別待遇。甚至是明明在眼前就已經看到我們擔心的事情每天都在發生，民眾的個資每天都在外漏，你們視而不見，結果去……我認為去找它麻煩，就是因為意識形態的關係而有不同的標準。這是民眾的部分，我希望未來數發部審慎地來做評估。","至於政府部門，你說你怕資料傳過去，如果過去就禁止使用華為等等，沒關係！我認為這是你們的行政權，我不會過度地干涉。但是畢竟目前DeepSeek的中文語言模型真的太強了，如果能夠讓我們的公務人員好好利用的話，對於提升我們公務的效能，單單講寫公文這件事情就會有很大的幫助。當然我們也知道我們不可能把公文丟進去DeepSeek讓它回傳到對岸去，包括GPT，我相信部長你也是不認同把任何的公文拿去語言模型修，這都有洩漏的風險。但是任何的語言模型現在都有離線使用吧！對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：如果像ChatGPT、DeepSeek這種是沒有離線版，但是微軟就會有另外的措施讓你的資料就在一個沙盒裡面，所以……"],["廖委員先翔：對，就不會回傳到他們的伺服器嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：就不會被拿去做……"],["廖委員先翔：包括DeepSeek也是嘛！對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：DeepSeek基本上如果用app版……"],["廖委員先翔：當初前唐鳳部長不就是用這種方式，然後去規避了它那個越獄的問題嗎？對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：那是另外一個問題，就是它本身的safeguard資安防護做不好，所以很容易去做jailbreak，去挖出敏感資料或是個……但是這是另外一個問題。現在資料傳回中國，然後去被做……"],["廖委員先翔：沒有，我就是在確認只要在離線的情況下。其實你說現在誰沒有在用AI模型？你沒有在用AI模型，在文字的一些表述上面或者是文字撰稿上面，包括很多記者全部都用AI在幫忙潤嘛！對不對？都在幫忙潤文字啊！包括公家機關在寫公文，每天你花一個小時寫公文的時間，你可能請它幫忙潤一下，除了錯字修正之外，語意更順，減省我們公務人員的時間。","安全絕對是最優先的考量。我不單指DeepSeek，而是所有的語言模型。在我們的公務機關，只要確保它的資料沒有回傳風險，它是可以離線使用的話，我們政府應該是要敞開雙手來利用新的科技，來減輕公務人員在文書處理上面的負擔，我覺得這是一個AI最基本，目前現階段對於我們公務同仁可以提供一個很實質的幫助。"],["黃部長彥男：我們最後是希望有一個自己所謂的主權AI，就是我們自己的模型。"],["廖委員先翔：當然你們也可以做啊，對不對？包括我也鼓勵你們可以做一套可以幫助公務人員繕寫公文的系統，更為簡潔、節省時間的一套系統。你們能做得出來當然優先使用，對不對。"],["黃部長彥男：對，我們現在已經在發展。"],["廖委員先翔：但還沒有做出來之前，我們必須敞開雙手去看人家的好處，不要因為它來自哪邊，我們就去否定它，不讓我們去使用來增進我們的工作技能，好不好？以上，跟部長您做一些交流，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","請黃委員健豪委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-2","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","黃健豪","林楚茵","游顥","葛如鈞"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142601_00010"}}}