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{\"word\": \"庭\", \"start\": 1037.018, \"end\": 1037.219, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 1037.219, \"end\": 1037.359, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 1037.359, \"end\": 1037.619, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"錄\"}, {\"word\": \"音\", \"start\": 1037.619, \"end\": 1037.679, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"錄\"}, {\"word\": \"影\", \"start\": 1037.679, \"end\": 1037.879, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 1037.879, \"end\": 1038.059, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"麻\", \"start\": 1038.059, \"end\": 1038.479, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"煩\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 1038.479, \"end\": 1038.66, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1038.66, \"end\": 1038.98, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1038.98, \"end\": 1039.08, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 1039.08, \"end\": 1039.16, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1039.16, \"end\": 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\"score\": 0.497}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 1042.282, \"end\": 1042.302, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,606 --> 00:00:00,646\n我們請次長\n\n2\n00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:35,306\n我想今天在座的官員裡面應該擔任過檢察官的有快十位那次長你也是我以前檢查實習的時候的導師所以我在這邊先提一個東西就是說雖然剛剛有提到那個北檢的檢察官去詢問這個審慶金的事情但是因為本案已經起訴了\n\n3\n00:00:36,905 --> 00:00:56,653\n本來已經起訴了那現在審理的是台北電商法院那他的主管機關是司法院所以這個案子我們在討論並沒有干涉個案的問題我想次長這個我這樣講有沒有問題因為他已經現在已經不屬於偵查階段了嘛那就這個案子的部分其實是就\n\n4\n00:00:58,486 --> 00:01:14,511\n個案的事情我們來去討論出檢查體系裡面通案的一個毛病所以我想說如果有一些人他一直講說這什麼就個案討論這個我想說他們可能對於這個檢查體系以及對於刑訴訟法其實是搞不太清楚所以才會講這樣子的話\n\n5\n00:01:16,792 --> 00:01:44,059\n好那我想說社長我以前是老師嘛那以前我們在實習的時候也有跟我們講說不可以私下跟當事人見面跟當事人接觸那個社長這個有沒有問題當然我們相關的檢察官論理規範有做一些我們品味上的要求跟職務上要求啦那私底下跟當事人接觸當然是私下當然是不妥好謝謝好那所以呢其實我還是這麼認為啦就是正常的開庭\n\n6\n00:01:46,000 --> 00:02:01,478\n全程錄音錄影這是有它的必要性那所以說在蔡清強部長的時候因為當時有爆發一個王育文的案子就是高鴻安那個案子的他的一個其中一位被告那王育文他有16分鐘的錄音\n\n7\n00:02:02,421 --> 00:02:28,466\n沒有錄影所以後來又衍生出就是這個當事人指控說檢察官在那16分鐘裡面對他恐嚇了什麼事情所以當時蔡部長他就要求全國的那個地檢署在開庭的時候一定要記得全程錄音錄影那今天呢北檢的這位檢察官他到他到醫院去看那個住院的沈靜菁其實\n\n8\n00:02:30,539 --> 00:02:55,094\n今天北檢的新聞稿我個人覺得不太能接受因為在座我剛剛有說有快十位都是檢察官出身的官員那好像只有一位其別比我淺其他每一位其別都比我深一定比我更了解檢查體系的運作我想以前我們在辦案子的時候如果我要了解這個被告適不適合來開庭我會函詢醫院\n\n9\n00:02:56,752 --> 00:03:17,400\n我不會像北檢所說的去視察被告的健康狀況這非常的罕見什麼叫做視察被告的健康狀況你檢察官去那邊看了被告幾眼你就可以確定他能不能夠應訊嘛所以正常的做法我們一定要含詢而且把相關資料全部留在卷證裡面避免糾紛所以北檢的這個\n\n10\n00:03:19,543 --> 00:03:45,629\n記者會的這個論述我真的覺得是騙外行人可以但是你自己在座這麼多警察官出身的我想不太會有人去視察被告的身體狀況這種事情更何況你也不是醫生你不可能用眼睛看你就知道這是第一個我對於北檢的這個新聞稿我持平的來說我個人不認同這個新聞稿的這個說辭那我反而覺得這有一點是在\n\n11\n00:03:47,859 --> 00:04:04,830\n有點是在硬凹啦那我今天是這樣我沒有說要去打擊司法或打擊北京我只是希望說我做的每一件事情都能夠讓人民對司法的信任度能夠更高那蔣阿關到場去如果說他是\n\n12\n00:04:06,158 --> 00:04:27,674\n必須到醫院去就訊或者是做臨時偵查庭的詢問我覺得這個也無可厚非但是如果這樣的話真的不適宜說你在現場兩個多小時就錄影只有幾分鐘那你中間跟被告的談話這個是很奇怪的嘛\n\n13\n00:04:28,889 --> 00:04:50,124\n我想說老師你以前也不會這樣教我說在跟被告開庭之前我們先來跟他溝通個兩個小時溝通的被告講的差不多了那我們再來錄音錄影我想老師你也不會這樣教我來詢問被告所以我們以前開庭的時候就是全程的錄音錄影\n\n14\n00:04:51,707 --> 00:05:13,227\n其實我從頭到尾我都沒有說沈慶金或他的律師指控一定是真的我只是說因為有這個空白的存在反而讓檢察官被更多的質疑其實沒有必要去躺這個渾水你今天第一個你去醫院看他如果你要臨時偵查庭你要去詢問也沒問題嘛你就從頭錄到尾\n\n15\n00:05:16,226 --> 00:05:30,796\n你看你進去你不可能從一進去就開始錄但是如果在現場兩個小時你錄了一個小時半或一個小時四分鐘我覺得大家可以接受就你兩個小時只錄了幾分鐘我想這就是問題而且如果檢察官\n\n16\n00:05:32,433 --> 00:06:01,393\n這麼做也很容易被當事人見縫查證所以我不知道市長您的想法怎麼樣跟委員報告啦我們順法規定是詢問被告時要前程原則上前程錄音錄影嘛他是詢問被告那現在就要定性什麼是詢問嘛那如果說在我們偵查庭裡面當然一進入我們偵查庭我們就開始詢問這是沒有問題所以前程錄音錄影沒有問題他在基本上他現在是在偵查庭外的庭外的是不是所謂有臨時偵查庭的問題那他就沒有辦法\n\n17\n00:06:02,693 --> 00:06:31,573\n當下立刻就馬上的錄音錄影所以他他的這個開始進入詢問的時間到底是什麼時間點這時候必須要北檢他必須要對外說明然後個案去判斷詢問我們就應該錄音錄影他那北檢他當然發布發表新聞稿說他前面那一段還沒有進入還沒有進入這個詢問的過程嘛所以這基本上這個問題的根結就是我們98條那個詢問的時間點的定性的問題市長我認同所以我剛剛講的很清楚嘛我說\n\n18\n00:06:33,153 --> 00:06:51,538\n臨時偵查廳他不可能從頭開始錄所以如果你在現場兩小時你如果一個小時半一個小時四十分鐘我覺得都可以接受的範圍我剛剛有講這一段因為我總是從寬去認定因為我那個體系出來我不會像外行人一樣吹毛球似的要求檢查官去做一些實務上不可能的事那我的意思只是說\n\n19\n00:06:52,458 --> 00:07:03,247\n因為你在現場那麼久但是你只錄了幾分鐘結果你現在被當事人的律師講說你這段時間你還跟我講說柯文哲是壞人你要咬他什麼之類的\n\n20\n00:07:04,537 --> 00:07:28,740\n那這樣子檢察官百口莫辯如果今天檢察官是有委屈但是他也百口莫辯啊但這個事情發生對司法就是一個傷害所以我個人是這樣說啦我還是一樣我個性還是這樣我怎麼樣我就憑良心說話我們自己在當檢察官的時候我們都很清楚真的沒有所謂的視察倍高狀健康狀況\n\n21\n00:07:30,273 --> 00:07:46,607\n或是你簡單去了解一下10分鐘離開OK但是你今天去兩個多小時還在那邊跟他討論案情而且是沒有在錄音錄影也沒有製作筆錄的情況下這樣我真的覺得不妥啦我不知道次長您覺得這樣做是正確的嗎\n\n22\n00:07:49,892 --> 00:08:10,288\n就這個涉及到法律的解釋個案事實的狀況我們當然也尊重北檢新聞說明那我也尊重委員剛剛就法律上見解的闡述那我基本上這個就是對我們詢問的定性的問題那沒關係喔我知道市長您的意思啦就是你認為說詢問如果依照檢察官的說法那詢問就是最後那幾分鐘\n\n23\n00:08:11,169 --> 00:08:29,551\n但是如果這樣的話前面兩個多小時的時間雖然有書記官以及律師在場但我覺得這跟檢察官私下跟當事人接觸有什麼不同沒有錄音沒有錄影沒有做筆錄那我私下跟你聊案情然後叫你要認罪這跟私下接觸有什麼不一樣所以我真的認為說\n\n24\n00:08:31,212 --> 00:08:59,018\n不管怎麼樣我認為這個行為是不宜我沒有說檢察官百分之百違法因為我不知道當時他們講了什麼但是我覺得完全不宜再多幾次這樣其實對司法傷害更重為什麼我今天會提這個其實之前有一個案子張立善縣長的案子他在2022年選縣長的時候就有雲林的調查官去發生教唆政人偽證後來這個調查官也被\n\n25\n00:09:00,208 --> 00:09:22,646\n起訴被送懲戒所以我們今天要做的是我們盡量要求這些司法人員他在錄音錄影的情況下去去做詢問詢問等等的行為其實就是要避免這個情況發生所以既然有那個調查官這麼做那你今天北檢的檢察官帶頭這麼做我真的覺得這是完全不對的\n\n26\n00:09:23,888 --> 00:09:41,998\n更何況你今天你在偵辦的是一個高度受矚目的案件如果你今天小案子有一些程序上的瑕疵我想每個人幾十年的檢察官生涯難免會有但是這個這麼高度政治性的案件高度受矚目的案件你還這樣做\n\n27\n00:09:44,229 --> 00:10:10,466\n沒有啦我還是覺得這個對檢方的傷害是不小啦單就這件事情上面更何況我在這邊跟各位報告的我真的我以前對於被告的身體狀況怎麼樣我們都是含尋醫院醫院回函給我們的我們依據醫院專業的判斷給我們我們來認定他有沒有辦法接受訓問我們真的不會去用檢察官的眼睛去視察被告的身體狀況其實這是\n\n28\n00:10:12,728 --> 00:10:24,659\n這是荒謬的一個這個新聞稿覺得是荒謬啦是幫檢察官解套這個我想長官都會這麼做幫忙下屬去解套但是這講出去專業的人聽到或律師聽到其實會覺得\n\n29\n00:10:26,795 --> 00:10:41,641\n是還蠻可笑的啦所以這部分我想我們就做這樣因為我今天講的是因為總是由個案發現問題才能去解決通案的問題嘛那這件又是已經起訴院方審理中所以沒有干涉個案我想這個以後\n\n30\n00:10:43,001 --> 00:11:06,612\n因為我們如果不把這件事講清楚我跟人家晚上又有人要扣帽子說我們在干涉個案所以我講很清楚這件已經起訴了沒有干涉個案的問題那我也麻煩說部裡面一定要特別告訴檢察官你在出去開臨時偵查庭的時候你盡量能夠全程錄影那如果真的有一些\n\n31\n00:11:07,833 --> 00:11:18,913\n而現實上的困難的話那至少你不要說時間差那麼多兩個多小時就錄個五分鐘那個可能很容易就會遇到見風差針的一些狀況\n\n32\n00:11:22,970 --> 00:11:43,465\n那次長我想說剛剛的問題是是這樣我也再提一個其實我們去就訓的時候你像警察在外面執行都有密錄器全程錄影他們也是避免這個狀況各說各話的狀況發生那如果我們因為臨時偵查庭去就訓然後我們又說有一些現實上的困難我90%的時間都不能錄其實這個講出去\n\n33\n00:11:46,067 --> 00:12:06,318\n民眾可能不會接受更何況現在手機什麼都可以錄影還是要自保啦我現在就提一個很簡單的問題我想請教一下法務部今年的總預算比去年多多少三減後大概多了12億多\n\n34\n00:12:08,055 --> 00:12:31,989\n那我想說多12億多因為那一天那個總諮詢的時候因為總超說19億啦那你們說12億那是不是三除後折對對對那不管怎麼樣我想說多了12億多的預算當然他可能用在不同的科目可是因為這段時間很多檢察官跟我講說部裡面有一些告訴他們一些事譬如說什麼用電怎麼樣或是一些這種宣傳我覺得\n\n35\n00:12:34,631 --> 00:12:45,628\n其實各部會這段時間的錢真的多很多就是我們有抓出來這一次總預算國家總預算比去年多了1368億\n\n36\n00:12:48,483 --> 00:13:16,797\n不是像我們之前說800多因為主計總數給我們資料之後我們整個核算說原來是今年通過的總預算比去年多了1368億那法務部也多了十幾億那像這個情況下說真的你要是還是一直在那邊扯說什麼用電怎麼樣衛生紙怎麼樣用水怎麼樣其實我覺得講久了這個也不好聽而且我在這邊跟各位報告一個點其實我一直很想說一句話因為\n\n37\n00:13:17,937 --> 00:13:36,610\n這段時間有一堆地方的民意代表甚至包括中央的立法委員都在造謠說人民什麼補貼會拿不到什麼租屋補貼育兒津貼都會拿不到因為我們刪了預算但我在這邊跟各位報告不會拿不到因為那個預算沒有刪\n\n38\n00:13:37,833 --> 00:13:58,564\n那完全沒有刪啦那他之前就是造謠那接下來大家也一定還會領得到因為該發而不發公務員有一流客扣罪嘛我想沒有一個公務員敢該發而不發因為這刑法上面就構成犯罪但是我們現在看到是政治人物在前面拼命的造謠騙國人但是我跟\n\n39\n00:13:59,608 --> 00:14:22,049\n在座各位以及跟國人保證沒有刪除的東西就是會發出來因為公務員沒有不發的權利除非你本身資格身體資格不符合否則沒有不發的權利不然會構成一流客扣罪我想次長這個沒有問題吧對憲法有這個法律所以有這個法律那我也這邊通告全國公務員不要因為立場而去\n\n40\n00:14:22,890 --> 00:14:47,482\n配合的那些政客在那邊胡說八道搞鬼該發的東西就要發否則一定會構成犯罪跟委員需要補充一下其實我們多12億多他其實是多在人事費啦我們相關費用因為我們今年增額了151人相關的人事費還有相關的這個晉級的費用就12億多所以本部私資上他的金額是沒有增加他是增加人事費的部分今天大概是這個\n\n41\n00:14:48,682 --> 00:15:02,338\n我可以了解啦因為我剛有說不同的科目但是呢過去運作得了但是現在卻跟我們講一些比較低階的沒水沒電沒衛生紙或甚至經常門的東西也拿出來\n\n42\n00:15:03,419 --> 00:15:27,059\n做文章我不是說法國部啦連經常門的東西都可以拿出來做文章我真的覺得說多了是自己丟臉的因為那個你說那個東西那不會受影響啊那呃再我再跟那個次長報告一件事就是呃接下來我可能會比較注意到AI書類系統的那個部分因為呢過去三年我們花了3169萬2千元的經費其實花非常多錢在AI的書類系統\n\n43\n00:15:30,982 --> 00:15:54,231\n那將來我可能會去考察AI的書類系統它的成效如何運作狀況如何以及上個會期我們希望說能夠有檢察官的對於這個系統的滿意度的調查報告因為他們才是使用者那請他們給我們這個調查報告那這個部分再麻煩部裡面能夠幫忙我到時候可能會排一些考察\n\n44\n00:15:55,111 --> 00:16:20,085\n我們現在在桃園台中已經示範了一陣子了那新北跟台北也在去年開始示範那未來考察的話到時可以到比較桃園或台中這種示範比較久的地檢署來看他目前的成效那另外委員有提到他在使用的回饋機制那事實上我們也要求我們希望地檢署使用之後有一些好的不好的我們都有一個會議來請他們表達意見給我們一些建議\n\n45\n00:16:20,745 --> 00:16:42,766\n好次長最後又麻煩你們能夠就這個北檢這個這個沈慶慶這個到醫院去問這可不可以法務部能夠訂出一個檢察官去臨時偵查庭去就訓的時候是不是應該有一些注意事項能請法務部能夠做一個統一的規定那避免說還有這樣的狀況發生因為這個狀況發生\n\n46\n00:16:45,902 --> 00:17:03,949\n也許檢察官說在這一波社會的攻擊上面受到委屈啦因為有可能檢察官都沒講過這個可是就是因為空白的存在或是像王玉文那個案子16分鐘沒有錄影空白的存在那就人家就可以講你很多了就很多無限的想像空間好\n\n47\n00:17:04,409 --> 00:17:22,302\n那這個要不要另外定一個要點我們再研議那倒是可以考慮看看在我們執行的相關的要點裡面某一條裡面做一個提示性的規範我想說徹底的解決這個問題然後開庭全程錄音錄影也麻煩法務部這邊一定要通告檢察官一定要落實這是法律規定謝謝市長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n606\t646\t我們請次長\n12520\t35306\t我想今天在座的官員裡面應該擔任過檢察官的有快十位那次長你也是我以前檢查實習的時候的導師所以我在這邊先提一個東西就是說雖然剛剛有提到那個北檢的檢察官去詢問這個審慶金的事情但是因為本案已經起訴了\n36905\t56653\t本來已經起訴了那現在審理的是台北電商法院那他的主管機關是司法院所以這個案子我們在討論並沒有干涉個案的問題我想次長這個我這樣講有沒有問題因為他已經現在已經不屬於偵查階段了嘛那就這個案子的部分其實是就\n58486\t74511\t個案的事情我們來去討論出檢查體系裡面通案的一個毛病所以我想說如果有一些人他一直講說這什麼就個案討論這個我想說他們可能對於這個檢查體系以及對於刑訴訟法其實是搞不太清楚所以才會講這樣子的話\n76792\t104059\t好 那我想說 社長我以前是老師嘛那以前我們在實習的時候也有跟我們講說不可以私下跟當事人見面 跟當事人接觸那個社長這個有沒有問題當然我們相關的檢察官論理規範有做一些我們品味上的要求跟職務上要求啦那私底下跟當事人接觸當然是 私下當然是不妥好 謝謝 好那所以呢 其實我還是這麼認為啦就是正常的開庭\n106000\t121478\t全程錄音錄影這是有它的必要性那所以說在蔡清強部長的時候因為當時有爆發一個王育文的案子就是高鴻安那個案子的他的一個其中一位被告那王育文他有16分鐘的錄音\n122421\t148466\t沒有錄影所以後來又衍生出就是這個當事人指控說檢察官在那16分鐘裡面對他恐嚇了什麼事情所以當時蔡部長他就要求全國的那個地檢署在開庭的時候一定要記得全程錄音錄影那今天呢北檢的這位檢察官他到他到醫院去看那個住院的沈靜菁其實\n150539\t175094\t今天北檢的新聞稿我個人覺得不太能接受因為在座我剛剛有說有快十位都是檢察官出身的官員那好像只有一位其別比我淺其他每一位其別都比我深一定比我更了解檢查體系的運作我想以前我們在辦案子的時候如果我要了解這個被告適不適合來開庭我會函詢醫院\n176752\t197400\t我不會像北檢所說的去視察被告的健康狀況這非常的罕見 什麼叫做視察被告的健康狀況你檢察官去那邊看了被告幾眼 你就可以確定他能不能夠應訊嘛所以正常的做法 我們一定要含詢 而且把相關資料全部留在卷證裡面避免糾紛所以北檢的這個\n199543\t225629\t記者會的這個論述我真的覺得是騙外行人可以但是你自己在座這麼多警察官出身的我想不太會有人去視察被告的身體狀況這種事情更何況你也不是醫生你不可能用眼睛看你就知道這是第一個我對於北檢的這個新聞稿我持平的來說我個人不認同這個新聞稿的這個說辭那我反而覺得這有一點是在\n227859\t244830\t有點是在硬凹啦那我今天是這樣我沒有說要去打擊司法或打擊北京我只是希望說我做的每一件事情都能夠讓人民對司法的信任度能夠更高那蔣阿關到場去如果說他是\n246158\t267674\t必須到醫院去就訊或者是做臨時偵查庭的詢問我覺得這個也無可厚非但是如果這樣的話真的不適宜說你在現場兩個多小時就錄影只有幾分鐘那你中間跟被告的談話這個是很奇怪的嘛\n268889\t290124\t我想說老師你以前也不會這樣教我說在跟被告開庭之前我們先來跟他溝通個兩個小時溝通的被告講的差不多了那我們再來錄音錄影我想老師你也不會這樣教我來詢問被告所以我們以前開庭的時候就是全程的錄音錄影\n291707\t313227\t其實我從頭到尾我都沒有說沈慶金或他的律師指控一定是真的我只是說因為有這個空白的存在反而讓檢察官被更多的質疑其實沒有必要去躺這個渾水你今天第一個你去醫院看他如果你要臨時偵查庭你要去詢問也沒問題嘛你就從頭錄到尾\n316226\t330796\t你看你進去你不可能從一進去就開始錄但是如果在現場兩個小時你錄了一個小時半或一個小時四分鐘我覺得大家可以接受就你兩個小時只錄了幾分鐘我想這就是問題而且如果檢察官\n332433\t361393\t這麼做也很容易被當事人見縫查證所以我不知道市長您的想法怎麼樣跟委員報告啦我們順法規定是詢問被告時要前程原則上前程錄音錄影嘛他是詢問被告那現在就要定性什麼是詢問嘛那如果說在我們偵查庭裡面當然一進入我們偵查庭我們就開始詢問這是沒有問題所以前程錄音錄影沒有問題他在基本上他現在是在偵查庭外的庭外的是不是所謂有臨時偵查庭的問題那他就沒有辦法\n362693\t391573\t當下立刻就馬上的錄音錄影所以他他的這個開始進入詢問的時間到底是什麼時間點這時候必須要北檢他必須要對外說明然後個案去判斷詢問我們就應該錄音錄影他那北檢他當然發布發表新聞稿說他前面那一段還沒有進入還沒有進入這個詢問的過程嘛所以這基本上這個問題的根結就是我們98條那個詢問的時間點的定性的問題市長我認同所以我剛剛講的很清楚嘛我說\n393153\t411538\t臨時偵查廳他不可能從頭開始錄所以如果你在現場兩小時你如果一個小時半一個小時四十分鐘我覺得都可以接受的範圍我剛剛有講這一段因為我總是從寬去認定因為我那個體系出來我不會像外行人一樣吹毛球似的要求檢查官去做一些實務上不可能的事那我的意思只是說\n412458\t423247\t因為你在現場那麼久但是你只錄了幾分鐘結果你現在被當事人的律師講說你這段時間你還跟我講說柯文哲是壞人你要咬他什麼之類的\n424537\t448740\t那這樣子檢察官百口莫辯如果今天檢察官是有委屈但是他也百口莫辯啊但這個事情發生對司法就是一個傷害所以我個人是這樣說啦我還是一樣我個性還是這樣我怎麼樣我就憑良心說話我們自己在當檢察官的時候我們都很清楚真的沒有所謂的視察倍高狀健康狀況\n450273\t466607\t或是你簡單去了解一下10分鐘離開 OK但是你今天去兩個多小時還在那邊跟他討論案情而且是沒有在錄音錄影也沒有製作筆錄的情況下這樣我真的覺得不妥啦我不知道次長您覺得這樣做是正確的嗎\n469892\t490288\t就這個涉及到法律的解釋個案事實的狀況我們當然也尊重北檢新聞說明那我也尊重委員剛剛就法律上見解的闡述那我基本上這個就是對我們詢問的定性的問題那沒關係喔我知道市長您的意思啦就是你認為說詢問如果依照檢察官的說法那詢問就是最後那幾分鐘\n491169\t509551\t但是如果這樣的話前面兩個多小時的時間雖然有書記官以及律師在場但我覺得這跟檢察官私下跟當事人接觸有什麼不同沒有錄音沒有錄影沒有做筆錄那我私下跟你聊案情然後叫你要認罪這跟私下接觸有什麼不一樣所以我真的認為說\n511212\t539018\t不管怎麼樣我認為這個行為是不宜我沒有說檢察官百分之百違法因為我不知道當時他們講了什麼但是我覺得完全不宜再多幾次這樣其實對司法傷害更重為什麼我今天會提這個其實之前有一個案子張立善縣長的案子他在2022年選縣長的時候就有雲林的調查官去發生教唆政人偽證後來這個調查官也被\n540208\t562646\t起訴被送懲戒所以我們今天要做的是我們盡量要求這些司法人員他在錄音錄影的情況下去去做詢問詢問等等的行為其實就是要避免這個情況發生所以既然有那個調查官這麼做那你今天北檢的檢察官帶頭這麼做我真的覺得這是完全不對的\n563888\t581998\t更何況你今天你在偵辦的是一個高度受矚目的案件如果你今天小案子有一些程序上的瑕疵我想每個人幾十年的檢察官生涯難免會有但是這個這麼高度政治性的案件高度受矚目的案件你還這樣做\n584229\t610466\t沒有啦我還是覺得這個對檢方的傷害是不小啦單就這件事情上面更何況我在這邊跟各位報告的我真的我以前對於被告的身體狀況怎麼樣我們都是含尋醫院醫院回函給我們的我們依據醫院專業的判斷給我們我們來認定他有沒有辦法接受訓問我們真的不會去用檢察官的眼睛去視察被告的身體狀況其實這是\n612728\t624659\t這是荒謬的一個這個新聞稿覺得是荒謬啦是幫檢察官解套這個我想長官都會這麼做幫忙下屬去解套但是這講出去專業的人聽到或律師聽到其實會覺得\n626795\t641641\t是還蠻可笑的啦所以這部分我想我們就做這樣因為我今天講的是因為總是由個案發現問題才能去解決通案的問題嘛那這件又是已經起訴院方審理中所以沒有干涉個案我想這個以後\n643001\t666612\t因為我們如果不把這件事講清楚我跟人家晚上又有人要扣帽子說我們在干涉個案所以我講很清楚這件已經起訴了沒有干涉個案的問題那我也麻煩說部裡面一定要特別告訴檢察官你在出去開臨時偵查庭的時候你盡量能夠全程錄影那如果真的有一些\n667833\t678913\t而現實上的困難的話那至少你不要說時間差那麼多兩個多小時就錄個五分鐘那個可能很容易就會遇到見風差針的一些狀況\n682970\t703465\t那次長 我想說剛剛的問題是是這樣我也再提一個 其實我們去就訓的時候 你像警察在外面執行都有密錄器全程錄影他們也是避免這個狀況 各說各話的狀況發生那如果我們因為臨時偵查庭去就訓 然後我們又說有一些現實上的困難我90%的時間都不能錄 其實這個講出去\n706067\t726318\t民眾可能不會接受更何況現在手機什麼都可以錄影還是要自保啦我現在就提一個很簡單的問題我想請教一下法務部今年的總預算比去年多多少三減後大概多了12億多\n728055\t751989\t那我想說多12億多因為那一天那個總諮詢的時候因為總超說19億啦那你們說12億那是不是三除後折對對對那不管怎麼樣我想說多了12億多的預算當然他可能用在不同的科目可是因為這段時間很多檢察官跟我講說部裡面有一些告訴他們一些事譬如說什麼用電怎麼樣或是一些這種宣傳我覺得\n754631\t765628\t其實各部會這段時間的錢真的多很多就是我們有抓出來這一次總預算 國家總預算比去年多了1368億\n768483\t796797\t不是像我們之前說800多因為主計總數給我們資料之後我們整個核算說原來是今年通過的總預算比去年多了1368億那法務部也多了十幾億那像這個情況下說真的你要是還是一直在那邊扯說什麼用電怎麼樣衛生紙怎麼樣用水怎麼樣其實我覺得講久了這個也不好聽而且我在這邊跟各位報告一個點其實我一直很想說一句話因為\n797937\t816610\t這段時間有一堆地方的民意代表甚至包括中央的立法委員都在造謠說人民什麼補貼會拿不到什麼租屋補貼育兒津貼都會拿不到因為我們刪了預算但我在這邊跟各位報告不會拿不到因為那個預算沒有刪\n817833\t838564\t那完全沒有刪啦 那他之前就是造謠那接下來大家也一定還會領得到 因為該發而不發 公務員有一流客扣罪嘛我想沒有一個公務員敢該發而不發 因為這刑法上面就構成犯罪但是我們現在看到是政治人物在前面拼命的造謠騙國人但是我跟\n839608\t862049\t在座各位以及跟國人保證沒有刪除的東西就是會發出來因為公務員沒有不發的權利除非你本身資格身體資格不符合否則沒有不發的權利不然會構成一流客扣罪我想次長這個沒有問題吧對 憲法有這個法律所以有這個法律那我也這邊通告全國公務員不要因為立場而去\n862890\t887482\t配合的那些政客在那邊胡說八道搞鬼該發的東西就要發否則一定會構成犯罪跟委員需要補充一下其實我們多12億多他其實是多在人事費啦我們相關費用因為我們今年增額了151人相關的人事費還有相關的這個晉級的費用就12億多所以本部私資上他的金額是沒有增加他是增加人事費的部分今天大概是這個\n888682\t902338\t我可以了解啦因為我剛有說不同的科目但是呢過去運作得了但是現在卻跟我們講一些比較低階的沒水沒電沒衛生紙或甚至經常門的東西也拿出來\n903419\t927059\t做文章我不是說法國部啦連經常門的東西都可以拿出來做文章我真的覺得說多了是自己丟臉的因為那個你說那個東西那不會受影響啊那呃再我再跟那個次長報告一件事就是呃接下來我可能會比較注意到AI書類系統的那個部分因為呢過去三年我們花了3169萬2千元的經費其實花非常多錢在AI的書類系統\n930982\t954231\t那將來我可能會去考察AI的書類系統它的成效如何 運作狀況如何以及上個會期我們希望說能夠有檢察官的對於這個系統的滿意度的調查報告因為他們才是使用者 那請他們給我們這個調查報告那這個部分再麻煩部裡面能夠幫忙我到時候可能會排一些考察\n955111\t980085\t我們現在在桃園台中已經示範了一陣子了那新北跟台北也在去年開始示範那未來考察的話到時可以到比較桃園或台中這種示範比較久的地檢署來看他目前的成效那另外委員有提到他在使用的回饋機制那事實上我們也要求我們希望地檢署使用之後有一些好的不好的我們都有一個會議來請他們表達意見給我們一些建議\n980745\t1002766\t好 次長最後又麻煩你們能夠就這個北檢這個這個沈慶慶這個到醫院去問這可不可以法務部能夠訂出一個檢察官去臨時偵查庭去就訓的時候是不是應該有一些注意事項能請法務部能夠做一個統一的規定那避免說還有這樣的狀況發生因為這個狀況發生\n1005902\t1023949\t也許檢察官說在這一波社會的攻擊上面受到委屈啦因為有可能檢察官都沒講過這個可是就是因為空白的存在或是像王玉文那個案子16分鐘沒有錄影空白的存在那就人家就可以講你很多了就很多無限的想像空間好\n1024409\t1042302\t那這個要不要另外定一個要點我們再研議那倒是可以考慮看看在我們執行的相關的要點裡面某一條裡面做一個提示性的規範我想說徹底的解決這個問題然後開庭全程錄音錄影也麻煩法務部這邊一定要通告檢察官一定要落實這是法律規定謝謝市長\n","txt":"我們請次長\n我想今天在座的官員裡面應該擔任過檢察官的有快十位那次長你也是我以前檢查實習的時候的導師所以我在這邊先提一個東西就是說雖然剛剛有提到那個北檢的檢察官去詢問這個審慶金的事情但是因為本案已經起訴了\n本來已經起訴了那現在審理的是台北電商法院那他的主管機關是司法院所以這個案子我們在討論並沒有干涉個案的問題我想次長這個我這樣講有沒有問題因為他已經現在已經不屬於偵查階段了嘛那就這個案子的部分其實是就\n個案的事情我們來去討論出檢查體系裡面通案的一個毛病所以我想說如果有一些人他一直講說這什麼就個案討論這個我想說他們可能對於這個檢查體系以及對於刑訴訟法其實是搞不太清楚所以才會講這樣子的話\n好 那我想說 社長我以前是老師嘛那以前我們在實習的時候也有跟我們講說不可以私下跟當事人見面 跟當事人接觸那個社長這個有沒有問題當然我們相關的檢察官論理規範有做一些我們品味上的要求跟職務上要求啦那私底下跟當事人接觸當然是 私下當然是不妥好 謝謝 好那所以呢 其實我還是這麼認為啦就是正常的開庭\n全程錄音錄影這是有它的必要性那所以說在蔡清強部長的時候因為當時有爆發一個王育文的案子就是高鴻安那個案子的他的一個其中一位被告那王育文他有16分鐘的錄音\n沒有錄影所以後來又衍生出就是這個當事人指控說檢察官在那16分鐘裡面對他恐嚇了什麼事情所以當時蔡部長他就要求全國的那個地檢署在開庭的時候一定要記得全程錄音錄影那今天呢北檢的這位檢察官他到他到醫院去看那個住院的沈靜菁其實\n今天北檢的新聞稿我個人覺得不太能接受因為在座我剛剛有說有快十位都是檢察官出身的官員那好像只有一位其別比我淺其他每一位其別都比我深一定比我更了解檢查體系的運作我想以前我們在辦案子的時候如果我要了解這個被告適不適合來開庭我會函詢醫院\n我不會像北檢所說的去視察被告的健康狀況這非常的罕見 什麼叫做視察被告的健康狀況你檢察官去那邊看了被告幾眼 你就可以確定他能不能夠應訊嘛所以正常的做法 我們一定要含詢 而且把相關資料全部留在卷證裡面避免糾紛所以北檢的這個\n記者會的這個論述我真的覺得是騙外行人可以但是你自己在座這麼多警察官出身的我想不太會有人去視察被告的身體狀況這種事情更何況你也不是醫生你不可能用眼睛看你就知道這是第一個我對於北檢的這個新聞稿我持平的來說我個人不認同這個新聞稿的這個說辭那我反而覺得這有一點是在\n有點是在硬凹啦那我今天是這樣我沒有說要去打擊司法或打擊北京我只是希望說我做的每一件事情都能夠讓人民對司法的信任度能夠更高那蔣阿關到場去如果說他是\n必須到醫院去就訊或者是做臨時偵查庭的詢問我覺得這個也無可厚非但是如果這樣的話真的不適宜說你在現場兩個多小時就錄影只有幾分鐘那你中間跟被告的談話這個是很奇怪的嘛\n我想說老師你以前也不會這樣教我說在跟被告開庭之前我們先來跟他溝通個兩個小時溝通的被告講的差不多了那我們再來錄音錄影我想老師你也不會這樣教我來詢問被告所以我們以前開庭的時候就是全程的錄音錄影\n其實我從頭到尾我都沒有說沈慶金或他的律師指控一定是真的我只是說因為有這個空白的存在反而讓檢察官被更多的質疑其實沒有必要去躺這個渾水你今天第一個你去醫院看他如果你要臨時偵查庭你要去詢問也沒問題嘛你就從頭錄到尾\n你看你進去你不可能從一進去就開始錄但是如果在現場兩個小時你錄了一個小時半或一個小時四分鐘我覺得大家可以接受就你兩個小時只錄了幾分鐘我想這就是問題而且如果檢察官\n這麼做也很容易被當事人見縫查證所以我不知道市長您的想法怎麼樣跟委員報告啦我們順法規定是詢問被告時要前程原則上前程錄音錄影嘛他是詢問被告那現在就要定性什麼是詢問嘛那如果說在我們偵查庭裡面當然一進入我們偵查庭我們就開始詢問這是沒有問題所以前程錄音錄影沒有問題他在基本上他現在是在偵查庭外的庭外的是不是所謂有臨時偵查庭的問題那他就沒有辦法\n當下立刻就馬上的錄音錄影所以他他的這個開始進入詢問的時間到底是什麼時間點這時候必須要北檢他必須要對外說明然後個案去判斷詢問我們就應該錄音錄影他那北檢他當然發布發表新聞稿說他前面那一段還沒有進入還沒有進入這個詢問的過程嘛所以這基本上這個問題的根結就是我們98條那個詢問的時間點的定性的問題市長我認同所以我剛剛講的很清楚嘛我說\n臨時偵查廳他不可能從頭開始錄所以如果你在現場兩小時你如果一個小時半一個小時四十分鐘我覺得都可以接受的範圍我剛剛有講這一段因為我總是從寬去認定因為我那個體系出來我不會像外行人一樣吹毛球似的要求檢查官去做一些實務上不可能的事那我的意思只是說\n因為你在現場那麼久但是你只錄了幾分鐘結果你現在被當事人的律師講說你這段時間你還跟我講說柯文哲是壞人你要咬他什麼之類的\n那這樣子檢察官百口莫辯如果今天檢察官是有委屈但是他也百口莫辯啊但這個事情發生對司法就是一個傷害所以我個人是這樣說啦我還是一樣我個性還是這樣我怎麼樣我就憑良心說話我們自己在當檢察官的時候我們都很清楚真的沒有所謂的視察倍高狀健康狀況\n或是你簡單去了解一下10分鐘離開 OK但是你今天去兩個多小時還在那邊跟他討論案情而且是沒有在錄音錄影也沒有製作筆錄的情況下這樣我真的覺得不妥啦我不知道次長您覺得這樣做是正確的嗎\n就這個涉及到法律的解釋個案事實的狀況我們當然也尊重北檢新聞說明那我也尊重委員剛剛就法律上見解的闡述那我基本上這個就是對我們詢問的定性的問題那沒關係喔我知道市長您的意思啦就是你認為說詢問如果依照檢察官的說法那詢問就是最後那幾分鐘\n但是如果這樣的話前面兩個多小時的時間雖然有書記官以及律師在場但我覺得這跟檢察官私下跟當事人接觸有什麼不同沒有錄音沒有錄影沒有做筆錄那我私下跟你聊案情然後叫你要認罪這跟私下接觸有什麼不一樣所以我真的認為說\n不管怎麼樣我認為這個行為是不宜我沒有說檢察官百分之百違法因為我不知道當時他們講了什麼但是我覺得完全不宜再多幾次這樣其實對司法傷害更重為什麼我今天會提這個其實之前有一個案子張立善縣長的案子他在2022年選縣長的時候就有雲林的調查官去發生教唆政人偽證後來這個調查官也被\n起訴被送懲戒所以我們今天要做的是我們盡量要求這些司法人員他在錄音錄影的情況下去去做詢問詢問等等的行為其實就是要避免這個情況發生所以既然有那個調查官這麼做那你今天北檢的檢察官帶頭這麼做我真的覺得這是完全不對的\n更何況你今天你在偵辦的是一個高度受矚目的案件如果你今天小案子有一些程序上的瑕疵我想每個人幾十年的檢察官生涯難免會有但是這個這麼高度政治性的案件高度受矚目的案件你還這樣做\n沒有啦我還是覺得這個對檢方的傷害是不小啦單就這件事情上面更何況我在這邊跟各位報告的我真的我以前對於被告的身體狀況怎麼樣我們都是含尋醫院醫院回函給我們的我們依據醫院專業的判斷給我們我們來認定他有沒有辦法接受訓問我們真的不會去用檢察官的眼睛去視察被告的身體狀況其實這是\n這是荒謬的一個這個新聞稿覺得是荒謬啦是幫檢察官解套這個我想長官都會這麼做幫忙下屬去解套但是這講出去專業的人聽到或律師聽到其實會覺得\n是還蠻可笑的啦所以這部分我想我們就做這樣因為我今天講的是因為總是由個案發現問題才能去解決通案的問題嘛那這件又是已經起訴院方審理中所以沒有干涉個案我想這個以後\n因為我們如果不把這件事講清楚我跟人家晚上又有人要扣帽子說我們在干涉個案所以我講很清楚這件已經起訴了沒有干涉個案的問題那我也麻煩說部裡面一定要特別告訴檢察官你在出去開臨時偵查庭的時候你盡量能夠全程錄影那如果真的有一些\n而現實上的困難的話那至少你不要說時間差那麼多兩個多小時就錄個五分鐘那個可能很容易就會遇到見風差針的一些狀況\n那次長 我想說剛剛的問題是是這樣我也再提一個 其實我們去就訓的時候 你像警察在外面執行都有密錄器全程錄影他們也是避免這個狀況 各說各話的狀況發生那如果我們因為臨時偵查庭去就訓 然後我們又說有一些現實上的困難我90%的時間都不能錄 其實這個講出去\n民眾可能不會接受更何況現在手機什麼都可以錄影還是要自保啦我現在就提一個很簡單的問題我想請教一下法務部今年的總預算比去年多多少三減後大概多了12億多\n那我想說多12億多因為那一天那個總諮詢的時候因為總超說19億啦那你們說12億那是不是三除後折對對對那不管怎麼樣我想說多了12億多的預算當然他可能用在不同的科目可是因為這段時間很多檢察官跟我講說部裡面有一些告訴他們一些事譬如說什麼用電怎麼樣或是一些這種宣傳我覺得\n其實各部會這段時間的錢真的多很多就是我們有抓出來這一次總預算 國家總預算比去年多了1368億\n不是像我們之前說800多因為主計總數給我們資料之後我們整個核算說原來是今年通過的總預算比去年多了1368億那法務部也多了十幾億那像這個情況下說真的你要是還是一直在那邊扯說什麼用電怎麼樣衛生紙怎麼樣用水怎麼樣其實我覺得講久了這個也不好聽而且我在這邊跟各位報告一個點其實我一直很想說一句話因為\n這段時間有一堆地方的民意代表甚至包括中央的立法委員都在造謠說人民什麼補貼會拿不到什麼租屋補貼育兒津貼都會拿不到因為我們刪了預算但我在這邊跟各位報告不會拿不到因為那個預算沒有刪\n那完全沒有刪啦 那他之前就是造謠那接下來大家也一定還會領得到 因為該發而不發 公務員有一流客扣罪嘛我想沒有一個公務員敢該發而不發 因為這刑法上面就構成犯罪但是我們現在看到是政治人物在前面拼命的造謠騙國人但是我跟\n在座各位以及跟國人保證沒有刪除的東西就是會發出來因為公務員沒有不發的權利除非你本身資格身體資格不符合否則沒有不發的權利不然會構成一流客扣罪我想次長這個沒有問題吧對 憲法有這個法律所以有這個法律那我也這邊通告全國公務員不要因為立場而去\n配合的那些政客在那邊胡說八道搞鬼該發的東西就要發否則一定會構成犯罪跟委員需要補充一下其實我們多12億多他其實是多在人事費啦我們相關費用因為我們今年增額了151人相關的人事費還有相關的這個晉級的費用就12億多所以本部私資上他的金額是沒有增加他是增加人事費的部分今天大概是這個\n我可以了解啦因為我剛有說不同的科目但是呢過去運作得了但是現在卻跟我們講一些比較低階的沒水沒電沒衛生紙或甚至經常門的東西也拿出來\n做文章我不是說法國部啦連經常門的東西都可以拿出來做文章我真的覺得說多了是自己丟臉的因為那個你說那個東西那不會受影響啊那呃再我再跟那個次長報告一件事就是呃接下來我可能會比較注意到AI書類系統的那個部分因為呢過去三年我們花了3169萬2千元的經費其實花非常多錢在AI的書類系統\n那將來我可能會去考察AI的書類系統它的成效如何 運作狀況如何以及上個會期我們希望說能夠有檢察官的對於這個系統的滿意度的調查報告因為他們才是使用者 那請他們給我們這個調查報告那這個部分再麻煩部裡面能夠幫忙我到時候可能會排一些考察\n我們現在在桃園台中已經示範了一陣子了那新北跟台北也在去年開始示範那未來考察的話到時可以到比較桃園或台中這種示範比較久的地檢署來看他目前的成效那另外委員有提到他在使用的回饋機制那事實上我們也要求我們希望地檢署使用之後有一些好的不好的我們都有一個會議來請他們表達意見給我們一些建議\n好 次長最後又麻煩你們能夠就這個北檢這個這個沈慶慶這個到醫院去問這可不可以法務部能夠訂出一個檢察官去臨時偵查庭去就訓的時候是不是應該有一些注意事項能請法務部能夠做一個統一的規定那避免說還有這樣的狀況發生因為這個狀況發生\n也許檢察官說在這一波社會的攻擊上面受到委屈啦因為有可能檢察官都沒講過這個可是就是因為空白的存在或是像王玉文那個案子16分鐘沒有錄影空白的存在那就人家就可以講你很多了就很多無限的想像空間好\n那這個要不要另外定一個要點我們再研議那倒是可以考慮看看在我們執行的相關的要點裡面某一條裡面做一個提示性的規範我想說徹底的解決這個問題然後開庭全程錄音錄影也麻煩法務部這邊一定要通告檢察官一定要落實這是法律規定謝謝市長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.606 --> 00:00.646\n我們請次長\n\n00:12.520 --> 00:35.306\n我想今天在座的官員裡面應該擔任過檢察官的有快十位那次長你也是我以前檢查實習的時候的導師所以我在這邊先提一個東西就是說雖然剛剛有提到那個北檢的檢察官去詢問這個審慶金的事情但是因為本案已經起訴了\n\n00:36.905 --> 00:56.653\n本來已經起訴了那現在審理的是台北電商法院那他的主管機關是司法院所以這個案子我們在討論並沒有干涉個案的問題我想次長這個我這樣講有沒有問題因為他已經現在已經不屬於偵查階段了嘛那就這個案子的部分其實是就\n\n00:58.486 --> 01:14.511\n個案的事情我們來去討論出檢查體系裡面通案的一個毛病所以我想說如果有一些人他一直講說這什麼就個案討論這個我想說他們可能對於這個檢查體系以及對於刑訴訟法其實是搞不太清楚所以才會講這樣子的話\n\n01:16.792 --> 01:44.059\n好那我想說社長我以前是老師嘛那以前我們在實習的時候也有跟我們講說不可以私下跟當事人見面跟當事人接觸那個社長這個有沒有問題當然我們相關的檢察官論理規範有做一些我們品味上的要求跟職務上要求啦那私底下跟當事人接觸當然是私下當然是不妥好謝謝好那所以呢其實我還是這麼認為啦就是正常的開庭\n\n01:46.000 --> 02:01.478\n全程錄音錄影這是有它的必要性那所以說在蔡清強部長的時候因為當時有爆發一個王育文的案子就是高鴻安那個案子的他的一個其中一位被告那王育文他有16分鐘的錄音\n\n02:02.421 --> 02:28.466\n沒有錄影所以後來又衍生出就是這個當事人指控說檢察官在那16分鐘裡面對他恐嚇了什麼事情所以當時蔡部長他就要求全國的那個地檢署在開庭的時候一定要記得全程錄音錄影那今天呢北檢的這位檢察官他到他到醫院去看那個住院的沈靜菁其實\n\n02:30.539 --> 02:55.094\n今天北檢的新聞稿我個人覺得不太能接受因為在座我剛剛有說有快十位都是檢察官出身的官員那好像只有一位其別比我淺其他每一位其別都比我深一定比我更了解檢查體系的運作我想以前我們在辦案子的時候如果我要了解這個被告適不適合來開庭我會函詢醫院\n\n02:56.752 --> 03:17.400\n我不會像北檢所說的去視察被告的健康狀況這非常的罕見什麼叫做視察被告的健康狀況你檢察官去那邊看了被告幾眼你就可以確定他能不能夠應訊嘛所以正常的做法我們一定要含詢而且把相關資料全部留在卷證裡面避免糾紛所以北檢的這個\n\n03:19.543 --> 03:45.629\n記者會的這個論述我真的覺得是騙外行人可以但是你自己在座這麼多警察官出身的我想不太會有人去視察被告的身體狀況這種事情更何況你也不是醫生你不可能用眼睛看你就知道這是第一個我對於北檢的這個新聞稿我持平的來說我個人不認同這個新聞稿的這個說辭那我反而覺得這有一點是在\n\n03:47.859 --> 04:04.830\n有點是在硬凹啦那我今天是這樣我沒有說要去打擊司法或打擊北京我只是希望說我做的每一件事情都能夠讓人民對司法的信任度能夠更高那蔣阿關到場去如果說他是\n\n04:06.158 --> 04:27.674\n必須到醫院去就訊或者是做臨時偵查庭的詢問我覺得這個也無可厚非但是如果這樣的話真的不適宜說你在現場兩個多小時就錄影只有幾分鐘那你中間跟被告的談話這個是很奇怪的嘛\n\n04:28.889 --> 04:50.124\n我想說老師你以前也不會這樣教我說在跟被告開庭之前我們先來跟他溝通個兩個小時溝通的被告講的差不多了那我們再來錄音錄影我想老師你也不會這樣教我來詢問被告所以我們以前開庭的時候就是全程的錄音錄影\n\n04:51.707 --> 05:13.227\n其實我從頭到尾我都沒有說沈慶金或他的律師指控一定是真的我只是說因為有這個空白的存在反而讓檢察官被更多的質疑其實沒有必要去躺這個渾水你今天第一個你去醫院看他如果你要臨時偵查庭你要去詢問也沒問題嘛你就從頭錄到尾\n\n05:16.226 --> 05:30.796\n你看你進去你不可能從一進去就開始錄但是如果在現場兩個小時你錄了一個小時半或一個小時四分鐘我覺得大家可以接受就你兩個小時只錄了幾分鐘我想這就是問題而且如果檢察官\n\n05:32.433 --> 06:01.393\n這麼做也很容易被當事人見縫查證所以我不知道市長您的想法怎麼樣跟委員報告啦我們順法規定是詢問被告時要前程原則上前程錄音錄影嘛他是詢問被告那現在就要定性什麼是詢問嘛那如果說在我們偵查庭裡面當然一進入我們偵查庭我們就開始詢問這是沒有問題所以前程錄音錄影沒有問題他在基本上他現在是在偵查庭外的庭外的是不是所謂有臨時偵查庭的問題那他就沒有辦法\n\n06:02.693 --> 06:31.573\n當下立刻就馬上的錄音錄影所以他他的這個開始進入詢問的時間到底是什麼時間點這時候必須要北檢他必須要對外說明然後個案去判斷詢問我們就應該錄音錄影他那北檢他當然發布發表新聞稿說他前面那一段還沒有進入還沒有進入這個詢問的過程嘛所以這基本上這個問題的根結就是我們98條那個詢問的時間點的定性的問題市長我認同所以我剛剛講的很清楚嘛我說\n\n06:33.153 --> 06:51.538\n臨時偵查廳他不可能從頭開始錄所以如果你在現場兩小時你如果一個小時半一個小時四十分鐘我覺得都可以接受的範圍我剛剛有講這一段因為我總是從寬去認定因為我那個體系出來我不會像外行人一樣吹毛球似的要求檢查官去做一些實務上不可能的事那我的意思只是說\n\n06:52.458 --> 07:03.247\n因為你在現場那麼久但是你只錄了幾分鐘結果你現在被當事人的律師講說你這段時間你還跟我講說柯文哲是壞人你要咬他什麼之類的\n\n07:04.537 --> 07:28.740\n那這樣子檢察官百口莫辯如果今天檢察官是有委屈但是他也百口莫辯啊但這個事情發生對司法就是一個傷害所以我個人是這樣說啦我還是一樣我個性還是這樣我怎麼樣我就憑良心說話我們自己在當檢察官的時候我們都很清楚真的沒有所謂的視察倍高狀健康狀況\n\n07:30.273 --> 07:46.607\n或是你簡單去了解一下10分鐘離開OK但是你今天去兩個多小時還在那邊跟他討論案情而且是沒有在錄音錄影也沒有製作筆錄的情況下這樣我真的覺得不妥啦我不知道次長您覺得這樣做是正確的嗎\n\n07:49.892 --> 08:10.288\n就這個涉及到法律的解釋個案事實的狀況我們當然也尊重北檢新聞說明那我也尊重委員剛剛就法律上見解的闡述那我基本上這個就是對我們詢問的定性的問題那沒關係喔我知道市長您的意思啦就是你認為說詢問如果依照檢察官的說法那詢問就是最後那幾分鐘\n\n08:11.169 --> 08:29.551\n但是如果這樣的話前面兩個多小時的時間雖然有書記官以及律師在場但我覺得這跟檢察官私下跟當事人接觸有什麼不同沒有錄音沒有錄影沒有做筆錄那我私下跟你聊案情然後叫你要認罪這跟私下接觸有什麼不一樣所以我真的認為說\n\n08:31.212 --> 08:59.018\n不管怎麼樣我認為這個行為是不宜我沒有說檢察官百分之百違法因為我不知道當時他們講了什麼但是我覺得完全不宜再多幾次這樣其實對司法傷害更重為什麼我今天會提這個其實之前有一個案子張立善縣長的案子他在2022年選縣長的時候就有雲林的調查官去發生教唆政人偽證後來這個調查官也被\n\n09:00.208 --> 09:22.646\n起訴被送懲戒所以我們今天要做的是我們盡量要求這些司法人員他在錄音錄影的情況下去去做詢問詢問等等的行為其實就是要避免這個情況發生所以既然有那個調查官這麼做那你今天北檢的檢察官帶頭這麼做我真的覺得這是完全不對的\n\n09:23.888 --> 09:41.998\n更何況你今天你在偵辦的是一個高度受矚目的案件如果你今天小案子有一些程序上的瑕疵我想每個人幾十年的檢察官生涯難免會有但是這個這麼高度政治性的案件高度受矚目的案件你還這樣做\n\n09:44.229 --> 10:10.466\n沒有啦我還是覺得這個對檢方的傷害是不小啦單就這件事情上面更何況我在這邊跟各位報告的我真的我以前對於被告的身體狀況怎麼樣我們都是含尋醫院醫院回函給我們的我們依據醫院專業的判斷給我們我們來認定他有沒有辦法接受訓問我們真的不會去用檢察官的眼睛去視察被告的身體狀況其實這是\n\n10:12.728 --> 10:24.659\n這是荒謬的一個這個新聞稿覺得是荒謬啦是幫檢察官解套這個我想長官都會這麼做幫忙下屬去解套但是這講出去專業的人聽到或律師聽到其實會覺得\n\n10:26.795 --> 10:41.641\n是還蠻可笑的啦所以這部分我想我們就做這樣因為我今天講的是因為總是由個案發現問題才能去解決通案的問題嘛那這件又是已經起訴院方審理中所以沒有干涉個案我想這個以後\n\n10:43.001 --> 11:06.612\n因為我們如果不把這件事講清楚我跟人家晚上又有人要扣帽子說我們在干涉個案所以我講很清楚這件已經起訴了沒有干涉個案的問題那我也麻煩說部裡面一定要特別告訴檢察官你在出去開臨時偵查庭的時候你盡量能夠全程錄影那如果真的有一些\n\n11:07.833 --> 11:18.913\n而現實上的困難的話那至少你不要說時間差那麼多兩個多小時就錄個五分鐘那個可能很容易就會遇到見風差針的一些狀況\n\n11:22.970 --> 11:43.465\n那次長我想說剛剛的問題是是這樣我也再提一個其實我們去就訓的時候你像警察在外面執行都有密錄器全程錄影他們也是避免這個狀況各說各話的狀況發生那如果我們因為臨時偵查庭去就訓然後我們又說有一些現實上的困難我90%的時間都不能錄其實這個講出去\n\n11:46.067 --> 12:06.318\n民眾可能不會接受更何況現在手機什麼都可以錄影還是要自保啦我現在就提一個很簡單的問題我想請教一下法務部今年的總預算比去年多多少三減後大概多了12億多\n\n12:08.055 --> 12:31.989\n那我想說多12億多因為那一天那個總諮詢的時候因為總超說19億啦那你們說12億那是不是三除後折對對對那不管怎麼樣我想說多了12億多的預算當然他可能用在不同的科目可是因為這段時間很多檢察官跟我講說部裡面有一些告訴他們一些事譬如說什麼用電怎麼樣或是一些這種宣傳我覺得\n\n12:34.631 --> 12:45.628\n其實各部會這段時間的錢真的多很多就是我們有抓出來這一次總預算國家總預算比去年多了1368億\n\n12:48.483 --> 13:16.797\n不是像我們之前說800多因為主計總數給我們資料之後我們整個核算說原來是今年通過的總預算比去年多了1368億那法務部也多了十幾億那像這個情況下說真的你要是還是一直在那邊扯說什麼用電怎麼樣衛生紙怎麼樣用水怎麼樣其實我覺得講久了這個也不好聽而且我在這邊跟各位報告一個點其實我一直很想說一句話因為\n\n13:17.937 --> 13:36.610\n這段時間有一堆地方的民意代表甚至包括中央的立法委員都在造謠說人民什麼補貼會拿不到什麼租屋補貼育兒津貼都會拿不到因為我們刪了預算但我在這邊跟各位報告不會拿不到因為那個預算沒有刪\n\n13:37.833 --> 13:58.564\n那完全沒有刪啦那他之前就是造謠那接下來大家也一定還會領得到因為該發而不發公務員有一流客扣罪嘛我想沒有一個公務員敢該發而不發因為這刑法上面就構成犯罪但是我們現在看到是政治人物在前面拼命的造謠騙國人但是我跟\n\n13:59.608 --> 14:22.049\n在座各位以及跟國人保證沒有刪除的東西就是會發出來因為公務員沒有不發的權利除非你本身資格身體資格不符合否則沒有不發的權利不然會構成一流客扣罪我想次長這個沒有問題吧對憲法有這個法律所以有這個法律那我也這邊通告全國公務員不要因為立場而去\n\n14:22.890 --> 14:47.482\n配合的那些政客在那邊胡說八道搞鬼該發的東西就要發否則一定會構成犯罪跟委員需要補充一下其實我們多12億多他其實是多在人事費啦我們相關費用因為我們今年增額了151人相關的人事費還有相關的這個晉級的費用就12億多所以本部私資上他的金額是沒有增加他是增加人事費的部分今天大概是這個\n\n14:48.682 --> 15:02.338\n我可以了解啦因為我剛有說不同的科目但是呢過去運作得了但是現在卻跟我們講一些比較低階的沒水沒電沒衛生紙或甚至經常門的東西也拿出來\n\n15:03.419 --> 15:27.059\n做文章我不是說法國部啦連經常門的東西都可以拿出來做文章我真的覺得說多了是自己丟臉的因為那個你說那個東西那不會受影響啊那呃再我再跟那個次長報告一件事就是呃接下來我可能會比較注意到AI書類系統的那個部分因為呢過去三年我們花了3169萬2千元的經費其實花非常多錢在AI的書類系統\n\n15:30.982 --> 15:54.231\n那將來我可能會去考察AI的書類系統它的成效如何運作狀況如何以及上個會期我們希望說能夠有檢察官的對於這個系統的滿意度的調查報告因為他們才是使用者那請他們給我們這個調查報告那這個部分再麻煩部裡面能夠幫忙我到時候可能會排一些考察\n\n15:55.111 --> 16:20.085\n我們現在在桃園台中已經示範了一陣子了那新北跟台北也在去年開始示範那未來考察的話到時可以到比較桃園或台中這種示範比較久的地檢署來看他目前的成效那另外委員有提到他在使用的回饋機制那事實上我們也要求我們希望地檢署使用之後有一些好的不好的我們都有一個會議來請他們表達意見給我們一些建議\n\n16:20.745 --> 16:42.766\n好次長最後又麻煩你們能夠就這個北檢這個這個沈慶慶這個到醫院去問這可不可以法務部能夠訂出一個檢察官去臨時偵查庭去就訓的時候是不是應該有一些注意事項能請法務部能夠做一個統一的規定那避免說還有這樣的狀況發生因為這個狀況發生\n\n16:45.902 --> 17:03.949\n也許檢察官說在這一波社會的攻擊上面受到委屈啦因為有可能檢察官都沒講過這個可是就是因為空白的存在或是像王玉文那個案子16分鐘沒有錄影空白的存在那就人家就可以講你很多了就很多無限的想像空間好\n\n17:04.409 --> 17:22.302\n那這個要不要另外定一個要點我們再研議那倒是可以考慮看看在我們執行的相關的要點裡面某一條裡面做一個提示性的規範我想說徹底的解決這個問題然後開庭全程錄音錄影也麻煩法務部這邊一定要通告檢察官一定要落實這是法律規定謝謝市長\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.606,"end":0.646,"text":"我們請次長"},{"start":12.52,"end":35.306,"text":"我想今天在座的官員裡面應該擔任過檢察官的有快十位那次長你也是我以前檢查實習的時候的導師所以我在這邊先提一個東西就是說雖然剛剛有提到那個北檢的檢察官去詢問這個審慶金的事情但是因為本案已經起訴了"},{"start":36.905,"end":56.653,"text":"本來已經起訴了那現在審理的是台北電商法院那他的主管機關是司法院所以這個案子我們在討論並沒有干涉個案的問題我想次長這個我這樣講有沒有問題因為他已經現在已經不屬於偵查階段了嘛那就這個案子的部分其實是就"},{"start":58.486,"end":74.511,"text":"個案的事情我們來去討論出檢查體系裡面通案的一個毛病所以我想說如果有一些人他一直講說這什麼就個案討論這個我想說他們可能對於這個檢查體系以及對於刑訴訟法其實是搞不太清楚所以才會講這樣子的話"},{"start":76.792,"end":104.059,"text":"好 那我想說 社長我以前是老師嘛那以前我們在實習的時候也有跟我們講說不可以私下跟當事人見面 跟當事人接觸那個社長這個有沒有問題當然我們相關的檢察官論理規範有做一些我們品味上的要求跟職務上要求啦那私底下跟當事人接觸當然是 私下當然是不妥好 謝謝 好那所以呢 其實我還是這麼認為啦就是正常的開庭"},{"start":106,"end":121.478,"text":"全程錄音錄影這是有它的必要性那所以說在蔡清強部長的時候因為當時有爆發一個王育文的案子就是高鴻安那個案子的他的一個其中一位被告那王育文他有16分鐘的錄音"},{"start":122.421,"end":148.466,"text":"沒有錄影所以後來又衍生出就是這個當事人指控說檢察官在那16分鐘裡面對他恐嚇了什麼事情所以當時蔡部長他就要求全國的那個地檢署在開庭的時候一定要記得全程錄音錄影那今天呢北檢的這位檢察官他到他到醫院去看那個住院的沈靜菁其實"},{"start":150.539,"end":175.094,"text":"今天北檢的新聞稿我個人覺得不太能接受因為在座我剛剛有說有快十位都是檢察官出身的官員那好像只有一位其別比我淺其他每一位其別都比我深一定比我更了解檢查體系的運作我想以前我們在辦案子的時候如果我要了解這個被告適不適合來開庭我會函詢醫院"},{"start":176.752,"end":197.4,"text":"我不會像北檢所說的去視察被告的健康狀況這非常的罕見 什麼叫做視察被告的健康狀況你檢察官去那邊看了被告幾眼 你就可以確定他能不能夠應訊嘛所以正常的做法 我們一定要含詢 而且把相關資料全部留在卷證裡面避免糾紛所以北檢的這個"},{"start":199.543,"end":225.629,"text":"記者會的這個論述我真的覺得是騙外行人可以但是你自己在座這麼多警察官出身的我想不太會有人去視察被告的身體狀況這種事情更何況你也不是醫生你不可能用眼睛看你就知道這是第一個我對於北檢的這個新聞稿我持平的來說我個人不認同這個新聞稿的這個說辭那我反而覺得這有一點是在"},{"start":227.859,"end":244.83,"text":"有點是在硬凹啦那我今天是這樣我沒有說要去打擊司法或打擊北京我只是希望說我做的每一件事情都能夠讓人民對司法的信任度能夠更高那蔣阿關到場去如果說他是"},{"start":246.158,"end":267.674,"text":"必須到醫院去就訊或者是做臨時偵查庭的詢問我覺得這個也無可厚非但是如果這樣的話真的不適宜說你在現場兩個多小時就錄影只有幾分鐘那你中間跟被告的談話這個是很奇怪的嘛"},{"start":268.889,"end":290.124,"text":"我想說老師你以前也不會這樣教我說在跟被告開庭之前我們先來跟他溝通個兩個小時溝通的被告講的差不多了那我們再來錄音錄影我想老師你也不會這樣教我來詢問被告所以我們以前開庭的時候就是全程的錄音錄影"},{"start":291.707,"end":313.227,"text":"其實我從頭到尾我都沒有說沈慶金或他的律師指控一定是真的我只是說因為有這個空白的存在反而讓檢察官被更多的質疑其實沒有必要去躺這個渾水你今天第一個你去醫院看他如果你要臨時偵查庭你要去詢問也沒問題嘛你就從頭錄到尾"},{"start":316.226,"end":330.796,"text":"你看你進去你不可能從一進去就開始錄但是如果在現場兩個小時你錄了一個小時半或一個小時四分鐘我覺得大家可以接受就你兩個小時只錄了幾分鐘我想這就是問題而且如果檢察官"},{"start":332.433,"end":361.393,"text":"這麼做也很容易被當事人見縫查證所以我不知道市長您的想法怎麼樣跟委員報告啦我們順法規定是詢問被告時要前程原則上前程錄音錄影嘛他是詢問被告那現在就要定性什麼是詢問嘛那如果說在我們偵查庭裡面當然一進入我們偵查庭我們就開始詢問這是沒有問題所以前程錄音錄影沒有問題他在基本上他現在是在偵查庭外的庭外的是不是所謂有臨時偵查庭的問題那他就沒有辦法"},{"start":362.693,"end":391.573,"text":"當下立刻就馬上的錄音錄影所以他他的這個開始進入詢問的時間到底是什麼時間點這時候必須要北檢他必須要對外說明然後個案去判斷詢問我們就應該錄音錄影他那北檢他當然發布發表新聞稿說他前面那一段還沒有進入還沒有進入這個詢問的過程嘛所以這基本上這個問題的根結就是我們98條那個詢問的時間點的定性的問題市長我認同所以我剛剛講的很清楚嘛我說"},{"start":393.153,"end":411.538,"text":"臨時偵查廳他不可能從頭開始錄所以如果你在現場兩小時你如果一個小時半一個小時四十分鐘我覺得都可以接受的範圍我剛剛有講這一段因為我總是從寬去認定因為我那個體系出來我不會像外行人一樣吹毛球似的要求檢查官去做一些實務上不可能的事那我的意思只是說"},{"start":412.458,"end":423.247,"text":"因為你在現場那麼久但是你只錄了幾分鐘結果你現在被當事人的律師講說你這段時間你還跟我講說柯文哲是壞人你要咬他什麼之類的"},{"start":424.537,"end":448.74,"text":"那這樣子檢察官百口莫辯如果今天檢察官是有委屈但是他也百口莫辯啊但這個事情發生對司法就是一個傷害所以我個人是這樣說啦我還是一樣我個性還是這樣我怎麼樣我就憑良心說話我們自己在當檢察官的時候我們都很清楚真的沒有所謂的視察倍高狀健康狀況"},{"start":450.273,"end":466.607,"text":"或是你簡單去了解一下10分鐘離開 OK但是你今天去兩個多小時還在那邊跟他討論案情而且是沒有在錄音錄影也沒有製作筆錄的情況下這樣我真的覺得不妥啦我不知道次長您覺得這樣做是正確的嗎"},{"start":469.892,"end":490.288,"text":"就這個涉及到法律的解釋個案事實的狀況我們當然也尊重北檢新聞說明那我也尊重委員剛剛就法律上見解的闡述那我基本上這個就是對我們詢問的定性的問題那沒關係喔我知道市長您的意思啦就是你認為說詢問如果依照檢察官的說法那詢問就是最後那幾分鐘"},{"start":491.169,"end":509.551,"text":"但是如果這樣的話前面兩個多小時的時間雖然有書記官以及律師在場但我覺得這跟檢察官私下跟當事人接觸有什麼不同沒有錄音沒有錄影沒有做筆錄那我私下跟你聊案情然後叫你要認罪這跟私下接觸有什麼不一樣所以我真的認為說"},{"start":511.212,"end":539.018,"text":"不管怎麼樣我認為這個行為是不宜我沒有說檢察官百分之百違法因為我不知道當時他們講了什麼但是我覺得完全不宜再多幾次這樣其實對司法傷害更重為什麼我今天會提這個其實之前有一個案子張立善縣長的案子他在2022年選縣長的時候就有雲林的調查官去發生教唆政人偽證後來這個調查官也被"},{"start":540.208,"end":562.646,"text":"起訴被送懲戒所以我們今天要做的是我們盡量要求這些司法人員他在錄音錄影的情況下去去做詢問詢問等等的行為其實就是要避免這個情況發生所以既然有那個調查官這麼做那你今天北檢的檢察官帶頭這麼做我真的覺得這是完全不對的"},{"start":563.888,"end":581.998,"text":"更何況你今天你在偵辦的是一個高度受矚目的案件如果你今天小案子有一些程序上的瑕疵我想每個人幾十年的檢察官生涯難免會有但是這個這麼高度政治性的案件高度受矚目的案件你還這樣做"},{"start":584.229,"end":610.466,"text":"沒有啦我還是覺得這個對檢方的傷害是不小啦單就這件事情上面更何況我在這邊跟各位報告的我真的我以前對於被告的身體狀況怎麼樣我們都是含尋醫院醫院回函給我們的我們依據醫院專業的判斷給我們我們來認定他有沒有辦法接受訓問我們真的不會去用檢察官的眼睛去視察被告的身體狀況其實這是"},{"start":612.728,"end":624.659,"text":"這是荒謬的一個這個新聞稿覺得是荒謬啦是幫檢察官解套這個我想長官都會這麼做幫忙下屬去解套但是這講出去專業的人聽到或律師聽到其實會覺得"},{"start":626.795,"end":641.641,"text":"是還蠻可笑的啦所以這部分我想我們就做這樣因為我今天講的是因為總是由個案發現問題才能去解決通案的問題嘛那這件又是已經起訴院方審理中所以沒有干涉個案我想這個以後"},{"start":643.001,"end":666.612,"text":"因為我們如果不把這件事講清楚我跟人家晚上又有人要扣帽子說我們在干涉個案所以我講很清楚這件已經起訴了沒有干涉個案的問題那我也麻煩說部裡面一定要特別告訴檢察官你在出去開臨時偵查庭的時候你盡量能夠全程錄影那如果真的有一些"},{"start":667.833,"end":678.913,"text":"而現實上的困難的話那至少你不要說時間差那麼多兩個多小時就錄個五分鐘那個可能很容易就會遇到見風差針的一些狀況"},{"start":682.97,"end":703.465,"text":"那次長 我想說剛剛的問題是是這樣我也再提一個 其實我們去就訓的時候 你像警察在外面執行都有密錄器全程錄影他們也是避免這個狀況 各說各話的狀況發生那如果我們因為臨時偵查庭去就訓 然後我們又說有一些現實上的困難我90%的時間都不能錄 其實這個講出去"},{"start":706.067,"end":726.318,"text":"民眾可能不會接受更何況現在手機什麼都可以錄影還是要自保啦我現在就提一個很簡單的問題我想請教一下法務部今年的總預算比去年多多少三減後大概多了12億多"},{"start":728.055,"end":751.989,"text":"那我想說多12億多因為那一天那個總諮詢的時候因為總超說19億啦那你們說12億那是不是三除後折對對對那不管怎麼樣我想說多了12億多的預算當然他可能用在不同的科目可是因為這段時間很多檢察官跟我講說部裡面有一些告訴他們一些事譬如說什麼用電怎麼樣或是一些這種宣傳我覺得"},{"start":754.631,"end":765.628,"text":"其實各部會這段時間的錢真的多很多就是我們有抓出來這一次總預算 國家總預算比去年多了1368億"},{"start":768.483,"end":796.797,"text":"不是像我們之前說800多因為主計總數給我們資料之後我們整個核算說原來是今年通過的總預算比去年多了1368億那法務部也多了十幾億那像這個情況下說真的你要是還是一直在那邊扯說什麼用電怎麼樣衛生紙怎麼樣用水怎麼樣其實我覺得講久了這個也不好聽而且我在這邊跟各位報告一個點其實我一直很想說一句話因為"},{"start":797.937,"end":816.61,"text":"這段時間有一堆地方的民意代表甚至包括中央的立法委員都在造謠說人民什麼補貼會拿不到什麼租屋補貼育兒津貼都會拿不到因為我們刪了預算但我在這邊跟各位報告不會拿不到因為那個預算沒有刪"},{"start":817.833,"end":838.564,"text":"那完全沒有刪啦 那他之前就是造謠那接下來大家也一定還會領得到 因為該發而不發 公務員有一流客扣罪嘛我想沒有一個公務員敢該發而不發 因為這刑法上面就構成犯罪但是我們現在看到是政治人物在前面拼命的造謠騙國人但是我跟"},{"start":839.608,"end":862.049,"text":"在座各位以及跟國人保證沒有刪除的東西就是會發出來因為公務員沒有不發的權利除非你本身資格身體資格不符合否則沒有不發的權利不然會構成一流客扣罪我想次長這個沒有問題吧對 憲法有這個法律所以有這個法律那我也這邊通告全國公務員不要因為立場而去"},{"start":862.89,"end":887.482,"text":"配合的那些政客在那邊胡說八道搞鬼該發的東西就要發否則一定會構成犯罪跟委員需要補充一下其實我們多12億多他其實是多在人事費啦我們相關費用因為我們今年增額了151人相關的人事費還有相關的這個晉級的費用就12億多所以本部私資上他的金額是沒有增加他是增加人事費的部分今天大概是這個"},{"start":888.682,"end":902.338,"text":"我可以了解啦因為我剛有說不同的科目但是呢過去運作得了但是現在卻跟我們講一些比較低階的沒水沒電沒衛生紙或甚至經常門的東西也拿出來"},{"start":903.419,"end":927.059,"text":"做文章我不是說法國部啦連經常門的東西都可以拿出來做文章我真的覺得說多了是自己丟臉的因為那個你說那個東西那不會受影響啊那呃再我再跟那個次長報告一件事就是呃接下來我可能會比較注意到AI書類系統的那個部分因為呢過去三年我們花了3169萬2千元的經費其實花非常多錢在AI的書類系統"},{"start":930.982,"end":954.231,"text":"那將來我可能會去考察AI的書類系統它的成效如何 運作狀況如何以及上個會期我們希望說能夠有檢察官的對於這個系統的滿意度的調查報告因為他們才是使用者 那請他們給我們這個調查報告那這個部分再麻煩部裡面能夠幫忙我到時候可能會排一些考察"},{"start":955.111,"end":980.085,"text":"我們現在在桃園台中已經示範了一陣子了那新北跟台北也在去年開始示範那未來考察的話到時可以到比較桃園或台中這種示範比較久的地檢署來看他目前的成效那另外委員有提到他在使用的回饋機制那事實上我們也要求我們希望地檢署使用之後有一些好的不好的我們都有一個會議來請他們表達意見給我們一些建議"},{"start":980.745,"end":1002.766,"text":"好 次長最後又麻煩你們能夠就這個北檢這個這個沈慶慶這個到醫院去問這可不可以法務部能夠訂出一個檢察官去臨時偵查庭去就訓的時候是不是應該有一些注意事項能請法務部能夠做一個統一的規定那避免說還有這樣的狀況發生因為這個狀況發生"},{"start":1005.902,"end":1023.949,"text":"也許檢察官說在這一波社會的攻擊上面受到委屈啦因為有可能檢察官都沒講過這個可是就是因為空白的存在或是像王玉文那個案子16分鐘沒有錄影空白的存在那就人家就可以講你很多了就很多無限的想像空間好"},{"start":1024.409,"end":1042.302,"text":"那這個要不要另外定一個要點我們再研議那倒是可以考慮看看在我們執行的相關的要點裡面某一條裡面做一個提示性的規範我想說徹底的解決這個問題然後開庭全程錄音錄影也麻煩法務部這邊一定要通告檢察官一定要落實這是法律規定謝謝市長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1307,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（12時4分）謝謝，請次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：次長好。我想今天在座的官員裡面擔任過檢察官的應該有快十位，次長也是我以前檢察實習時候的導師。我在這邊先提一個東西，剛剛有提到北檢檢察官去詢問沈慶京的事情，因為本案已經起訴了，現在審理的是臺北地方法院，主管機關是司法院，所以我們討論這個案子並沒有干涉個案的問題。次長，我這樣講有沒有問題？"],["黃次長謀信：尊重委員的質詢。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為它現在已經不屬於偵查階段了，那就這個案子的部分，其實我們是就個案的事情討論檢察體系裡面通案的毛病，所以如果有一些人一直講這是就個案討論，我想他們可能是對於檢察體系以及刑事訴訟法搞不太清楚，所以才會講這樣子的話。次長是我以前的老師，也有在以前我們實習的時候跟我們說過，不可以私下跟當事人見面，跟當事人接觸，次長，這個有沒有問題？"],["黃次長謀信：相關的檢察官論理規範當然有對我們做一些品位上跟職務上的要求，私底下跟當事人接觸當然是不妥。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝！其實我還是認為正常的開庭全程錄音錄影，這是有它的必要性，在蔡清祥擔任部長的時候，當時有爆發一個王郁文的案子，就是高虹安那個案子其中一位被告，那個案子是偵訊王郁文時有16分鐘沒有錄影，後來又衍生出當事人指控檢察官在那16分鐘裡面對他恐嚇了什麼事情，所以當時蔡部長就要求全國的地檢署在開庭的時候一定要記得全程錄音錄影。今天是北檢的檢察官到醫院去看住院的沈慶京，其實對於今天北檢發的新聞稿，我個人覺得不太能接受，因為我剛剛有說在座各位有將近10位都是檢察官出身的官員，其中好像只有一位的期別比我淺，其他每一位的期別都比我深，一定比我更瞭解檢察體系的運作。以前我們在辦案的時候，如果我要瞭解這個被告適不適合來開庭，我會函詢醫院，不會像北檢所說的去視察被告的健康狀況，這個非常罕見，什麼叫做「視察被告的健康狀況」？檢察官去那邊看了被告幾眼就可以確定他能不能夠應訊嗎？正常的作法是我們一定會函詢，而且把相關資料全部留在卷證裡面，避免糾紛，所以北檢記者會的這個論述，我真的覺得這騙外行人可以，但是在座那麼多檢察官出身的，我想不太會有去視察被告的身體狀況這種事情，更何況你也不是醫生，不可能只用眼睛看就知道，這是第一點。對於北檢的新聞稿，持平的來說，我個人不認同新聞稿的說辭，反而覺得有一點是在硬拗。我今天沒有說要去打擊司法或打擊北檢，只是希望我做的每一件事情都能夠讓人民對於司法的信任度更高。檢察官到場，如果他必須到醫院去就訊或者是做臨時偵查庭的訊問，我覺得這也無可厚非，但如果是這樣的話真的不適宜，你在現場兩個多小時結果錄影只有幾分鐘，那你中間跟被告的談話時間這麼久，這個是很奇怪的嘛！老師以前也不會教我，在跟被告開庭之前先來跟他溝通個兩個小時，等被告講得差不多了，我們再來錄音錄影，我想老師也不會這樣教我來訊問被告嘛！我們以前開庭的時候就是全程的錄音錄影，其實我從頭到尾都沒有說沈慶京或他的律師的指控一定是真的，我只是說因為有這個空白的存在，反而讓檢察官受到更多的質疑，其實沒有必要去淌這個渾水。第一個是你去醫院看他，如果是要開臨時偵查庭去訊問他也沒問題，你就從頭錄到尾，當然你不可能從一進去就開始錄，如果你在現場兩個小時，錄了一個半小時或1小時40分鐘，我覺得大家還可以接受，但是你這兩個小時只錄了幾分鐘，我想這就是問題，而且如果檢察官這麼做，也很容易被當事人見縫插針。不知道次長的想法是怎麼樣？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，訴訟法規定訊問被告時原則上要全程錄音錄影，這是指「訊問」被告，那現在就要定性什麼是「訊問」，如果是在偵查庭裡面，當然一進入偵查庭就開始訊問，這個沒有問題，所以全程錄音錄影也沒有問題。但現在是在偵查庭外，是不是所謂有臨時偵查庭的問題，那就沒有辦法進去當下立刻就錄音錄影，所以開始進入訊問的到底是什麼時間點，這時候北檢必須要對外說明，個案去判斷。若是訊問，我們就應該錄音錄影，北檢當然也發了新聞稿說，前面那一段還沒有進入訊問的過程，基本上這個問題的根結就是訴訟法第九十八條訊問時間點定性的問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：我認同次長所說，所以我剛剛講得很清楚，臨時偵查庭不可能從頭開始錄，如果你在現場兩小時，錄了一個小時半或一個小時四十分鐘，我覺得都在可以接受的範圍，我剛剛有講這一段，我總是從寬去認定，因為我是從那個體系出來的，不會像外行人一樣吹毛求疵的要求檢察官去做一些實務上不可能的事。我的意思只是因為你在現場那麼久，卻只錄了幾分鐘，結果你現在被當事人的律師說你在這段時間還跟他講「柯文哲是壞人，你要咬他」什麼之類的，這樣變成檢察官百口莫辯，即便今天檢察官有委屈也百口莫辯啊！可是發生這個事情對司法就是一個傷害，所以我個人是這樣說，我的個性還是這樣，我就是憑良心說話，我們自己在當檢察官的時候都很清楚，真的沒有所謂的視察被告健康狀況，或者你只是簡單的去瞭解一下，10分鐘就離開，那OK，但是你今天去了兩個多小時，還在那邊跟他討論案情，而且是在沒有錄音錄影也沒有製作筆錄的情況下，這樣子我真的覺得不妥啦！次長覺得這樣做是正確的嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這個涉及到法律的解釋、個案事實狀況，我們當然尊重北檢新聞說明，我也尊重委員剛剛對法律上見解的闡述，基本上這個就是對訊問定性的問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：我知道次長的意思了，就是你認為如果依照檢察官的說法，訊問就是最後那幾分鐘，但如果是這樣的話，前面兩個多小時的時間，雖然有書記官與律師在場，但我覺得這跟檢察官私下跟當事人接觸有什麼不同？沒有錄音、沒有錄影、沒有做筆錄，我私下跟你聊案情，然後叫你要認罪，這跟私下接觸有什麼不一樣？我真的認為不管怎麼樣，這個行為不宜。我沒有說檢察官100%違法，因為我不知道當時他們講了什麼，但是我覺得完全不宜，再多幾次這樣的事情，其實對司法傷害更重。","為什麼我今天會提這個？其實之前有一個張麗善縣長的案子，她在2022年選縣長的時候，就發生雲林的調查官教唆證人做偽證的事情，後來這個調查官也被起訴送懲戒，所以我們今天要做的是，儘量要求這些司法人員在有錄音錄影的情況下去進行訊問、詢問等等行為，其實目的就是要避免這個情況發生，之前有調查官這麼做，今天北檢的檢察官帶頭這麼做，我真的覺得這是完全不對的。更何況今天偵辦的是一個高度受矚目的案件，如果今天辦的是小案子，有一些程序上的瑕疵，我想這在每個人幾十年的檢察官生涯中在所難免，但這個是這麼高度政治性的案件、高度受矚目的案件，你還這樣做。我還是覺得單就這件事情來說，對檢方的傷害不小，更何況我再跟各位報告一遍，以前要知道被告的身體狀況怎麼樣，我們都是函詢醫院，醫院回函給我們，我們再依據醫院給的專業判斷來認定他有沒有辦法接受訊問，真的不會用檢察官的眼睛去視察被告的身體狀況，我覺得這個新聞稿是荒謬的，是幫檢察官解套，我想長官都會這麼做，幫忙下屬去解套，但是這講出去，專業的人聽到或律師聽到其實會覺得還滿可笑的。這個部分我想我們就講到這裡，我今天講的是因為總是由個案發現問題才能去解決通案的問題，這件又是已經起訴、院方審理中的案子，所以沒有干涉個案問題，我們如果不把這件事講清楚，晚上又有人要扣帽子說我們在干涉個案。我講得很清楚，這件已經起訴了，沒有干涉個案的問題，我也麻煩部裡面一定要特別告訴檢察官，在出去開臨時偵查庭的時候，儘量能夠全程錄影，如果真的有一些現實上的困難，那至少不要說時間差那麼多，兩個多小時就錄個5分鐘，那個可能很容易就會遇到見縫插針的一些狀況。我想剛剛的問題是這樣，我也提出一點，其實我們去就訊的時候，比如警察在外面執行勤務，都有密錄器全程錄影，他們也是為了避免各說各話的狀況發生，那如果我們因為臨時偵查庭去就訊，卻又說有一些現實上的困難，90%的時間都不能錄，其實這個講出去，民眾可能不會接受，更何況現在手機、什麼都可以錄影，還是要自保啦！","接下來我要提一個很簡單的問題，請教一下法務部今年的總預算比去年多多少？"],["黃次長謀信：刪減後大概多了十二億多。"],["吳委員宗憲：那天總質詢的時候說差不多19億元，你們說12億元。"],["黃次長謀信：刪除後是12億元。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，但不管怎麼樣，總是多了十二億多的預算，當然它可能用在不同的科目，可是這段時間，很多檢察官跟我說，部裡有告訴他們一些事，譬如說什麼用電怎麼樣或是一些這種宣傳，其實各部會這段時間的錢真的多很多，我們都有抓出來，這一次的國家總預算比去年多了1,368億元，而非我們之前說的八百多億元，在主計總處給我們資料之後，整個核算下來原來今年通過的總預算比去年多了1,368億元，法務部也多了十幾億元，在這個情況下，說真的，你們要是還是一直在那邊扯，說什麼用電怎麼樣、衛生紙怎麼樣、用水怎麼樣，其實我覺得這個講久了也不好聽。而且我在這邊跟各位報告，我一直很想說一句話，因為這段時間有一堆地方的民意代表，甚至包括中央的立法委員都在造謠，人民有什麼補貼會拿不到，什麼租屋補貼、育兒津貼都會拿不到，因為我們刪了預算。但我在這邊跟各位報告，不會拿不到！因為那部分預算沒有刪，完全沒有刪！之前就是造謠，接下來大家也一定還會領得到，因為公務員有抑留剋扣罪，我想沒有一個公務員敢該發而不發，這在刑法上面就構成犯罪，但是我們現在看到的是政治人物在前面拚命的造謠騙國人，我在此跟在座各位以及國人保證，沒有刪除的東西就是會發出來，因為公務員沒有不發的權力，除非你本身申請資格不符合，否則他沒有不發的權力，不然會構成抑留剋扣罪。次長，這個沒有問題吧？"],["黃次長謀信：對，有這個法律。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以我在這邊通告全國公務員，不要因為立場而去配合那些政客在那邊胡說八道搞鬼，該發的東西就要發，否則一定會構成犯罪。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員補充一下，我們多了十二億多其實是多在人事費，因為我們今年增額了151人，相關的人事費還有晉級的費用就十二億多，所以本部實質上的預算金額沒有增加，增加的是人事費的部分，今年大概是這個樣子。"],["吳委員宗憲：我可以瞭解，所以我剛剛有說是不同的科目，但是過去運作得了，現在卻跟我們講一些比較低階的，沒水、沒電、沒衛生紙，甚至連經常門的東西也拿出來做文章，我不是說法務部，連經常門的東西都可以拿出來做文章，我真的覺得說多了是自己丟臉，因為那個東西不會受影響啦！","再跟次長報告一件事，接下來我可能會比較注意到AI書類系統的部分，因為過去3年，我們花了3,169萬2,000元經費在AI的書類系統上，將來我可能會去考察AI書類系統的成效如何、運作狀況如何以及上個會期我們希望能夠有檢察官對於這個系統的滿意度調查報告，因為他們才是使用者，請他們給我們這個調查報告，這個部分再麻煩部裡面能夠幫忙，到時候我可能會排一些考察。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我們現在在桃園、臺中已經試辦了一陣子，新北跟臺北也在去年開始試辦，未來要考察的話，可以到桃園或臺中這種試辦比較久的地檢署來看目前的成效。另外委員有提到它的使用回饋機制，事實上我們也希望地檢署使用之後，對於一些好的不好的部分，我們會有一個會議來請他們表達意見，給我們一些建議。"],["吳委員宗憲：最後就麻煩你們針對到醫院去訊問沈慶京這件事，請法務部就檢察官開臨時偵查庭去就訊時候應該有哪些注意事項，訂出統一的規定，避免還有這樣的狀況發生。因為發生這個狀況，也許檢察官在這一波社會攻擊上受到委屈，因為有可能檢察官都沒講過這個，可是就是因為空白的存在，或是像王郁文那個16分鐘沒有錄影空白的存在，人家就可以講你很多了，就有無限的想像空間。"],["黃次長謀信：好，這部分要不要另外訂一個要點，我們再研議，倒是可以考慮看看在我們執行的相關要點某一條裡面做提示性的規範。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想要徹底解決這個問題，然後是開庭全程錄影部分，也麻煩法務部一定要通告檢察官一定要落實。"],["黃次長謀信：這是法律規定。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝次長。"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：現在請賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員。","下一位請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","柯建銘","王義川","吳思瑤","黃國昌","王鴻薇","沈發惠","傅崐萁","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142601_00011"}}}