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\"我們今天專案報告的題目是工藝大廈裝設電動車輛的充電裝置的種種的疑難雜症請問從次長的角度來看你作為主管機關這個最大的阻力是什麼\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 62.242, \"end\": 62.322, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 62.322, \"end\": 62.402, \"score\": 0.67}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 62.402, \"end\": 62.623, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 62.623, \"end\": 62.823, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 62.823, \"end\": 63.103, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 63.103, \"end\": 63.203, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 63.203, \"end\": 63.343, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 63.343, \"end\": 63.464, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 63.464, \"end\": 63.664, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"藝\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 63.664, \"end\": 65.226, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"廈\"}, {\"word\": \"裝\"}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, 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00:01:13,235\n我們今天專案報告的題目是工藝大廈裝設電動車輛的充電裝置的種種的疑難雜症請問從次長的角度來看你作為主管機關這個最大的阻力是什麼\n\n5\n00:01:13,817 --> 00:01:38,617\n我想跟謝謝召委也謝謝各位委員今天的指教其實最關鍵的還是在安全的部分我想包括說特別是在地下設置的時候因為地下通常都為單一出口所以它一旦發生不可測試是時候最近當然因為有幾個這個電動車自燃的案件那當然就會出現安全上的疑慮這個本席不反對但其實大概就是四件事情啦\n\n6\n00:01:38,837 --> 00:02:00,649\n一個叫法規有限制嘛比如說法規硬性規定你不能裝那當然沒話講大家都不能說但顯然沒有這個問題對不對因為是可以的第二個是很多的技術問題今天我們之所以找台電找經濟部特別要報告其實就是確定其實在技術上它也是可行的所以我覺得技術問題也是小事即便說有一些老舊你要重新拉線技術上基本上都可以克服其實最大是後面這兩個問題第一個剛剛是你\n\n7\n00:02:02,310 --> 00:02:23,548\n市長你提到的有關安全的疑慮也就是說我的防火防災怎麼樣去確定可以維持社區的一個品質那另外一個我想是今天也有很多委員有提到但我想是我今天要更加強調的其實是社區內部的溝通問題啊我現在先從安全問題來出發安全疑慮啊跟你減碳的大目標兩個現在看起來有點打架怎麼辦\n\n8\n00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:44,632\n跟委員報告我想安全的疑慮的部分事實上消防署已經公布相關的一些法令規範而且我們也補充了補足在地方政府所需要的一些消防設備同時我們也訓練我們的消防弟兄們針對電動車意外的一些相關的救援方式所以這個部分我們都在精進當中\n\n9\n00:02:45,532 --> 00:03:06,810\n我可不可以這樣解釋就是說按照市長剛剛的說明你已經推出了很多的政策目標不管是中央來做地方來做或是一起來做其實也是從用技術的手段去降低安全的疑慮是所以可以說是技術手段可以克服的問題對不對對在一定層次上所以某一些層面安全疑慮我們當然希望內政部積極來做執行但基本上大家也覺得這是一個可以被克服的目標\n\n10\n00:03:07,270 --> 00:03:30,858\n所以他不會因為有安全的疑慮所以我就抵觸了現在環境部也好淨零碳排廣設電動裝推動電動車這樣的初衷不會抵觸嘛對不對OK那我們就談那我們就往下談啦安全問題可以技術克服但是最大的問題其實是社區管理嘛剛剛即便張宏祿召委也有講新的大樓有新的規範但即便有新的規範有預留管線要不要做充電裝是不是還是要過管委會這一關\n\n11\n00:03:32,134 --> 00:03:50,942\n原則上還是由管委會來共同決定還是由管委會來共同決定對不對所以我講最大的問題就是社區管理這個以內政部到目前為止的了解你覺得這個冬浴大廈裝電動裝的問題是不是普遍出現在各個社區的一個疑難雜症或者是一個很難處理的公共議題是或不是\n\n12\n00:03:52,083 --> 00:04:07,795\n我想這個真正的關鍵還是回歸到第一個問題就是說如果它不是一個就是我們在安全上面可以達到一定程度的時候事實上它本身的疑慮就會下降我這安全疑慮我們剛剛已經講完了嘛就技術問題略克我想問內政部這樣問一個問題好了就是說你們有沒有了解比如說我們有多少全台灣有多少公寓大廈有一些數據的資料國土署長救援一下也可以\n\n13\n00:04:20,865 --> 00:04:30,669\n目前了解大概有4萬多啦4萬多棟公寓大廈他們都有管理組織嗎就是現在公寓有對不對有納管的其中有多少有在討論電動裝的問題\n\n14\n00:04:32,852 --> 00:05:00,533\n就我知道啦其實在六都的應該非常非常多都已經在討論而且討論完沒有結論的應該更多了很好我想署長有碰觸到問題的核心啦就第一這個大部分人都有遇到這個問題不管裝了或沒裝大家都有討論這個事然後第二個很多時候是不了了之或者是最後沒有辦法升裝然後甚至有多少社區因為這樣吵架對簿公堂的搞不好也都有對不對所以\n\n15\n00:05:01,173 --> 00:05:28,251\n當然我們就剛剛這個其實很多委員都問過了就是說你現在針對大廈管理這件事情你要如何來做指引跟導引因為你這個國土署你曾經發布過新聞嘛你講說我要協助社區建立共識對不對署長所以你應該有一定的政策目標跟KPI我們先講現在實務上操作你是鼓勵地方政府去提出相關的注意事項或者是指引對不對但就出現一個問題啦有些縣市\n\n16\n00:05:29,608 --> 00:05:50,379\n方法不一樣你看表格有的是指導跟注意事項有的有因為社區的社區的核心運作就是靠規約嘛所以有些乾脆有把規約範本有提供出來讓大家可以做參考有一些有有一些沒有那更好更比較糟糕的是除了六都以外相對來講其他縣市就連相關的指引都沒有了\n\n17\n00:05:50,979 --> 00:06:19,836\n那我想請問這個中央要不要來統合處理第二個如果你要交給因為基於地方自治有地方自需求你怎麼樣確保地方政府有積極在推動這件事請你回答好感謝委員因為很重要的一點就是說我們現在為什麼由中央的話就必須要把安全的部分先完全考慮清楚對我們講安全的已經我會支持對不對這個安全的標準定出來就可以放到相關的指導或是規約修正裡面\n\n18\n00:06:20,396 --> 00:06:47,459\n要去討論這一件事那這也是我們為什麼在今年積極要趕快完成這件事情因為在消防的技術上如果能夠跟防火區劃上如果能夠確認的話我們給各縣市政府的標準就會更一致那也有利於各縣市政府去做相關規約的一個修正我想這是第一點那第二點就是說當然對很多老舊的大樓舊的大樓來講另外一個就是設置的成本的問題\n\n19\n00:06:48,300 --> 00:06:56,002\n那這也是為什麼我們在這過程當中也要透過比較全面性的檢討來一方面來確認安全的標準第二個\n\n20\n00:06:56,929 --> 00:07:21,378\n可不可以有效的降低設置的成本那這些成本有些是管委會要負擔的有些是車主本身要負擔的我們再進一步把它做一些界定那這些界定就會到時候會跟經濟部跟交通部去討論看看這些成本的負擔上面怎麼去做一個區分那這樣的話我想對各個管委會來講就會更清楚更有更清楚的答案才可以剛剛署長的回答基本上是一個方向性的回答\n\n21\n00:07:21,618 --> 00:07:37,868\n我們希望既然都已經排了專案報我們將有更具體的一些數據包含到底有多少的案例那我這希望希望這個內政部裡面去做一下調查我知道你們工藝大廈管理人力是非常缺的整個缺四萬多個你們才幾個人我記得加約聘不到十個人啦\n\n22\n00:07:38,408 --> 00:08:04,063\n對加一個科然後這樣子的人員編制其實在地方政府也是一樣我是覺得該做一下調整公寓大廈是越來越多人選擇特別是年輕的族群會居住的地方這管理問題值得深思那剛剛署長有講幾個至少大家看到一點方向也就是說當然你要配合因為我們剛剛講安全跟社區溝通兩個問題一起解決所以你的安全一些相關的法規跟規範要先有個譜嘛那請問這樣子的東西的時間表是什麼也就是說你打算什麼時候完成相關\n\n23\n00:08:05,443 --> 00:08:19,253\n規範的設計他要不要經過立法院審議討論什麼時候會有一個具體結果然後以至於推動未來你會有一個統一的指引標準讓整個環境變得更友善跟委員報告大概就今年內的是先希望把消防安全的部分\n\n24\n00:08:20,074 --> 00:08:40,280\n先做確認第一個確認以後可能在消防方面的規定還有我們建築紀律規則的規定這一個部分我們就希望能進一步去修因為他就不需要再透過立法的他應該是行政規則可以處理你說今年現在是今年是3月13到12月也是今年5月也是今年那有沒有再明確一點的時間表\n\n25\n00:08:41,580 --> 00:08:59,438\n我想可能就是未來這三個月跟消防署跟建研所這邊把這個技術的部分都確認以後我們今天竟然都看了專案報告就表示其實我看執行委員都還蠻踴躍的啦所以我希望這個速度可以加快那第二個相關公寓大廈管理條例總要調整不見得只是針對充電樁公寓大廈這個法規是非常陳舊過時的\n\n26\n00:09:02,961 --> 00:09:25,017\n部裡面現在有沒有安排修法的計畫報告其實原來已經有一個版本在行政院那所以如果這個技術如果討論的確認的話需要跟院再溝通修版本的話我們會再跟院來溝通把那個版本做一些修正你們今年會提出公寓大廈管理條例的修法版本嗎就從治理的角度我們是希望啦希望今年可以提出來有這樣子的目標\n\n27\n00:09:26,358 --> 00:09:40,534\n市長回去部長這邊可以多加油我想這種民生法案大家都會很樂意來做討論那我們回到管理的問題啦最後一個質疑其實社區遇到的問題我也就不再拷問大家了啦能不能裝裝在哪裡怎麼裝誰出錢怎麼管\n\n28\n00:09:42,622 --> 00:10:07,322\n你們四萬多個大廈有多少個大廈有遇過這樣的問題剛剛署長講很多這些問題是哪一關出了問題是可不可以裝出的問題還是怎麼分錢出的問題還是管理出的問題其實它值得詳細的調查啦我現在希望就是說未來我們要討論安全區劃之外也要修公寓大廈管理條例但是我現在覺得針對這樣子一個題目的研究和田野調查其實是非常少的\n\n29\n00:10:07,728 --> 00:10:27,823\n不管是中央來做或者是你要補助地方來做或者是你要一起做你要委外我都接受但是我希望看到這個我們的內政部針對大廈管理這件事情你可以充電樁作為一個研究案例你至少要了解問題出在哪吧我才會知道未來我在討論公寓大廈管理條例或者是我在發布政策指引的時候我應該怎麼辦\n\n30\n00:10:29,192 --> 00:10:50,621\n那麼針對這樣子的一個研究的案子或研究的報告部裡面有沒有想法還是大家要瞎子摸象大家憑感覺這樣好像也不太好對不對對我說明一下好了因為其實我剛剛第一次回答的那個幾個處理節奏可能就是在解決這些問題也就是說安全規範出來了其實怎麼裝大概其實答案都出來了大家就知道了嘛但是重點在於說誰出錢\n\n31\n00:10:52,342 --> 00:11:11,852\n對有多少責任是管委會多少責任是車主多少可能還要甚至回到車商沒有哪一些東西是車商應該要負擔的那最後這個統合起來如果確認的話最後就是怎麼管我之所以要把這點出來的原因為什麼我講他要做個研究案的原因就是因為你要先知道主要的問題出在哪一階段\n\n32\n00:11:12,412 --> 00:11:38,185\n因為這每一個問題背後都有一套政策邏輯嘛能不能裝人家安全的問題怎麼出錢可能試測未來要不要因為推動電動車要有補助對不對那是完全不一樣政策邏輯但你要知道主要的問題出在哪才能知道這個事我是希望內幕裡面可以整理詳細的數據啦就是說就你的了解到底大部分卡關卡在哪一關我們才能知道下一次我們要追蹤這個題目的時候要來怎麼樣來做處理啦希望這個部分部裡面來加油好嗎好辛苦了謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8126\t10667\t好謝謝主席 董事長有請請董事長\n19603\t35396\t市長辛苦了我們再次確認一下環境部公布的淨零碳排的目標包含大幅提升電動車的一個佔比有助於推動淨零碳排這樣的一個大的核心的方向內政部要不要配合內政部是全力配合內政部要全力配合對不對\n36537\t61862\t那這個我想市長應該不會反對啦在公寓大廈裡面廣設電動樁讓這個總體來講的環境不管是你路外的停車場也好或者是公寓大廈裡面讓它變得跟電動車對電動車相對友善應該是有助於推動這樣子的政策目標對不對是這個前提我們要把它確認好嘛對不對但實務上來講當進入到實際上操作的階段的時候當然就遇到了很多的阻力啦\n62242\t73235\t我們今天專案報告的題目是工藝大廈裝設電動車輛的充電裝置的種種的疑難雜症請問從次長的角度來看你作為主管機關這個最大的阻力是什麼\n73817\t98617\t我想跟謝謝召委也謝謝各位委員今天的指教其實最關鍵的還是在安全的部分我想包括說特別是在地下設置的時候因為地下通常都為單一出口所以它一旦發生不可測試是時候最近當然因為有幾個這個電動車自燃的案件那當然就會出現安全上的疑慮這個本席不反對但其實大概就是四件事情啦\n98837\t120649\t一個叫法規有限制嘛比如說法規硬性規定你不能裝那當然沒話講大家都不能說但顯然沒有這個問題對不對因為是可以的第二個是很多的技術問題今天我們之所以找台電找經濟部特別要報告其實就是確定其實在技術上它也是可行的所以我覺得技術問題也是小事即便說有一些老舊你要重新拉線技術上基本上都可以克服其實最大是後面這兩個問題第一個剛剛是你\n122310\t143548\t市長你提到的有關安全的疑慮也就是說我的防火防災怎麼樣去確定可以維持社區的一個品質那另外一個我想是今天也有很多委員有提到但我想是我今天要更加強調的其實是社區內部的溝通問題啊我現在先從安全問題來出發安全疑慮啊跟你減碳的大目標兩個現在看起來有點打架怎麼辦\n144960\t164632\t跟委員報告我想安全的疑慮的部分事實上消防署已經公布相關的一些法令規範而且我們也補充了補足在地方政府所需要的一些消防設備同時我們也訓練我們的消防弟兄們針對電動車意外的一些相關的救援方式所以這個部分我們都在精進當中\n165532\t186810\t我可不可以這樣解釋就是說按照市長剛剛的說明你已經推出了很多的政策目標不管是中央來做地方來做或是一起來做其實也是從用技術的手段去降低安全的疑慮是所以可以說是技術手段可以克服的問題對不對對在一定層次上所以某一些層面安全疑慮我們當然希望內政部積極來做執行但基本上大家也覺得這是一個可以被克服的目標\n187270\t210858\t所以他不會因為有安全的疑慮所以我就抵觸了現在環境部也好淨零碳排廣設電動裝推動電動車這樣的初衷不會抵觸嘛對不對OK那我們就談那我們就往下談啦安全問題可以技術克服但是最大的問題其實是社區管理嘛剛剛即便張宏祿召委也有講新的大樓有新的規範但即便有新的規範有預留管線要不要做充電裝是不是還是要過管委會這一關\n212134\t230942\t原則上還是由管委會來共同決定還是由管委會來共同決定對不對所以我講最大的問題就是社區管理這個以內政部到目前為止的了解你覺得這個冬浴大廈裝電動裝的問題是不是普遍出現在各個社區的一個疑難雜症或者是一個很難處理的公共議題是或不是\n232083\t247795\t我想這個真正的關鍵還是回歸到第一個問題就是說如果它不是一個就是我們在安全上面可以達到一定程度的時候事實上它本身的疑慮就會下降我這安全疑慮我們剛剛已經講完了嘛就技術問題略克我想問內政部這樣問一個問題好了就是說你們有沒有了解比如說我們有多少全台灣有多少公寓大廈有一些數據的資料國土署長救援一下也可以\n260865\t270669\t目前了解大概有4萬多啦4萬多棟公寓大廈他們都有管理組織嗎就是現在公寓有對不對有納管的其中有多少有在討論電動裝的問題\n272852\t300533\t就我知道啦其實在六都的應該非常非常多都已經在討論而且討論完沒有結論的應該更多了很好我想署長有碰觸到問題的核心啦就第一這個大部分人都有遇到這個問題不管裝了或沒裝大家都有討論這個事然後第二個很多時候是不了了之或者是最後沒有辦法升裝然後甚至有多少社區因為這樣吵架對簿公堂的搞不好也都有對不對所以\n301173\t328251\t當然我們就剛剛這個其實很多委員都問過了就是說你現在針對大廈管理這件事情你要如何來做指引跟導引因為你這個國土署你曾經發布過新聞嘛你講說我要協助社區建立共識對不對署長所以你應該有一定的政策目標跟KPI我們先講現在實務上操作你是鼓勵地方政府去提出相關的注意事項或者是指引對不對但就出現一個問題啦有些縣市\n329608\t350379\t方法不一樣你看表格有的是指導跟注意事項有的有因為社區的社區的核心運作就是靠規約嘛所以有些乾脆有把規約範本有提供出來讓大家可以做參考有一些有有一些沒有那更好更比較糟糕的是除了六都以外相對來講其他縣市就連相關的指引都沒有了\n350979\t379836\t那我想請問這個中央要不要來統合處理第二個如果你要交給因為基於地方自治有地方自需求你怎麼樣確保地方政府有積極在推動這件事請你回答好 感謝委員因為很重要的一點就是說我們現在為什麼由中央的話就必須要把安全的部分先完全考慮清楚對我們講安全的已經我會支持對不對這個安全的標準定出來就可以放到相關的指導或是規約修正裡面\n380396\t407459\t要去討論這一件事那這也是我們為什麼在今年積極要趕快完成這件事情因為在消防的技術上如果能夠跟防火區劃上如果能夠確認的話我們給各縣市政府的標準就會更一致那也有利於各縣市政府去做相關規約的一個修正我想這是第一點那第二點就是說當然對很多老舊的大樓舊的大樓來講另外一個就是設置的成本的問題\n408300\t416002\t那這也是為什麼我們在這過程當中也要透過比較全面性的檢討來一方面來確認安全的標準第二個\n416929\t441378\t可不可以有效的降低設置的成本那這些成本有些是管委會要負擔的有些是車主本身要負擔的我們再進一步把它做一些界定那這些界定就會到時候會跟經濟部跟交通部去討論看看這些成本的負擔上面怎麼去做一個區分那這樣的話我想對各個管委會來講就會更清楚更有更清楚的答案才可以剛剛署長的回答基本上是一個方向性的回答\n441618\t457868\t我們希望 既然都已經排了專案報我們將有更具體的一些數據包含到底有多少的案例那我這希望希望這個內政部裡面去做一下調查我知道你們工藝大廈管理人力是非常缺的整個缺四萬多個你們才幾個人我記得加約聘不到十個人啦\n458408\t484063\t對加一個科然後這樣子的人員編制其實在地方政府也是一樣我是覺得該做一下調整公寓大廈是越來越多人選擇特別是年輕的族群會居住的地方這管理問題值得深思那剛剛署長有講幾個至少大家看到一點方向也就是說當然你要配合因為我們剛剛講安全跟社區溝通兩個問題一起解決所以你的安全一些相關的法規跟規範要先有個譜嘛那請問這樣子的東西的時間表是什麼也就是說你打算什麼時候完成相關\n485443\t499253\t規範的設計他要不要經過立法院審議討論什麼時候會有一個具體結果然後以至於推動未來你會有一個統一的指引標準讓整個環境變得更友善跟委員報告大概就今年內的是先希望把消防安全的部分\n500074\t520280\t先做確認 第一個確認以後可能在消防方面的規定還有我們建築紀律規則的規定這一個部分我們就希望能進一步去修因為他就不需要再透過立法的他應該是行政規則可以處理你說今年 現在是今年是3月13到12月也是今年5月也是今年那有沒有再明確一點的時間表\n521580\t539438\t我想可能就是未來這三個月跟消防署跟建研所這邊把這個技術的部分都確認以後我們今天竟然都看了專案報告就表示其實我看執行委員都還蠻踴躍的啦所以我希望這個速度可以加快那第二個相關公寓大廈管理條例總要調整不見得只是針對充電樁公寓大廈這個法規是非常陳舊過時的\n542961\t565017\t部裡面現在有沒有安排修法的計畫報告其實原來已經有一個版本在行政院那所以如果這個技術如果討論的確認的話需要跟院再溝通修版本的話我們會再跟院來溝通把那個版本做一些修正你們今年會提出公寓大廈管理條例的修法版本嗎就從治理的角度我們是希望啦希望今年可以提出來有這樣子的目標\n566358\t580534\t市長回去 部長這邊可以多加油我想這種民生法案大家都會很樂意來做討論那我們回到管理的問題啦最後一個質疑其實社區遇到的問題我也就不再拷問大家了啦能不能裝 裝在哪裡怎麼裝 誰出錢怎麼管\n582622\t607322\t你們四萬多個大廈有多少個大廈有遇過這樣的問題剛剛署長講很多這些問題是哪一關出了問題是可不可以裝出的問題還是怎麼分錢出的問題還是管理出的問題其實它值得詳細的調查啦我現在希望就是說未來我們要討論安全區劃之外也要修公寓大廈管理條例但是我現在覺得針對這樣子一個題目的研究和田野調查其實是非常少的\n607728\t627823\t不管是中央來做或者是你要補助地方來做或者是你要一起做你要委外我都接受但是我希望看到這個我們的內政部針對大廈管理這件事情你可以充電樁作為一個研究案例你至少要了解問題出在哪吧我才會知道未來我在討論公寓大廈管理條例或者是我在發布政策指引的時候我應該怎麼辦\n629192\t650621\t那麼針對這樣子的一個研究的案子或研究的報告部裡面有沒有想法還是大家要瞎子摸象大家憑感覺這樣好像也不太好對不對對我說明一下好了因為其實我剛剛第一次回答的那個幾個處理節奏可能就是在解決這些問題也就是說安全規範出來了其實怎麼裝大概其實答案都出來了大家就知道了嘛但是重點在於說誰出錢\n652342\t671852\t對有多少責任是管委會多少責任是車主多少可能還要甚至回到車商沒有哪一些東西是車商應該要負擔的那最後這個統合起來如果確認的話最後就是怎麼管我之所以要把這點出來的原因為什麼我講他要做個研究案的原因就是因為你要先知道主要的問題出在哪一階段\n672412\t698185\t因為這每一個問題背後都有一套政策邏輯嘛能不能裝人家安全的問題怎麼出錢可能試測未來要不要因為推動電動車要有補助對不對 那是完全不一樣政策邏輯但你要知道主要的問題出在哪才能知道這個事我是希望內幕裡面可以整理詳細的數據啦就是說就你的了解到底大部分卡關卡在哪一關我們才能知道下一次我們要追蹤這個題目的時候要來怎麼樣來做處理啦希望這個部分部裡面來加油好嗎好辛苦了謝謝\n","txt":"好謝謝主席 董事長有請請董事長\n市長辛苦了我們再次確認一下環境部公布的淨零碳排的目標包含大幅提升電動車的一個佔比有助於推動淨零碳排這樣的一個大的核心的方向內政部要不要配合內政部是全力配合內政部要全力配合對不對\n那這個我想市長應該不會反對啦在公寓大廈裡面廣設電動樁讓這個總體來講的環境不管是你路外的停車場也好或者是公寓大廈裡面讓它變得跟電動車對電動車相對友善應該是有助於推動這樣子的政策目標對不對是這個前提我們要把它確認好嘛對不對但實務上來講當進入到實際上操作的階段的時候當然就遇到了很多的阻力啦\n我們今天專案報告的題目是工藝大廈裝設電動車輛的充電裝置的種種的疑難雜症請問從次長的角度來看你作為主管機關這個最大的阻力是什麼\n我想跟謝謝召委也謝謝各位委員今天的指教其實最關鍵的還是在安全的部分我想包括說特別是在地下設置的時候因為地下通常都為單一出口所以它一旦發生不可測試是時候最近當然因為有幾個這個電動車自燃的案件那當然就會出現安全上的疑慮這個本席不反對但其實大概就是四件事情啦\n一個叫法規有限制嘛比如說法規硬性規定你不能裝那當然沒話講大家都不能說但顯然沒有這個問題對不對因為是可以的第二個是很多的技術問題今天我們之所以找台電找經濟部特別要報告其實就是確定其實在技術上它也是可行的所以我覺得技術問題也是小事即便說有一些老舊你要重新拉線技術上基本上都可以克服其實最大是後面這兩個問題第一個剛剛是你\n市長你提到的有關安全的疑慮也就是說我的防火防災怎麼樣去確定可以維持社區的一個品質那另外一個我想是今天也有很多委員有提到但我想是我今天要更加強調的其實是社區內部的溝通問題啊我現在先從安全問題來出發安全疑慮啊跟你減碳的大目標兩個現在看起來有點打架怎麼辦\n跟委員報告我想安全的疑慮的部分事實上消防署已經公布相關的一些法令規範而且我們也補充了補足在地方政府所需要的一些消防設備同時我們也訓練我們的消防弟兄們針對電動車意外的一些相關的救援方式所以這個部分我們都在精進當中\n我可不可以這樣解釋就是說按照市長剛剛的說明你已經推出了很多的政策目標不管是中央來做地方來做或是一起來做其實也是從用技術的手段去降低安全的疑慮是所以可以說是技術手段可以克服的問題對不對對在一定層次上所以某一些層面安全疑慮我們當然希望內政部積極來做執行但基本上大家也覺得這是一個可以被克服的目標\n所以他不會因為有安全的疑慮所以我就抵觸了現在環境部也好淨零碳排廣設電動裝推動電動車這樣的初衷不會抵觸嘛對不對OK那我們就談那我們就往下談啦安全問題可以技術克服但是最大的問題其實是社區管理嘛剛剛即便張宏祿召委也有講新的大樓有新的規範但即便有新的規範有預留管線要不要做充電裝是不是還是要過管委會這一關\n原則上還是由管委會來共同決定還是由管委會來共同決定對不對所以我講最大的問題就是社區管理這個以內政部到目前為止的了解你覺得這個冬浴大廈裝電動裝的問題是不是普遍出現在各個社區的一個疑難雜症或者是一個很難處理的公共議題是或不是\n我想這個真正的關鍵還是回歸到第一個問題就是說如果它不是一個就是我們在安全上面可以達到一定程度的時候事實上它本身的疑慮就會下降我這安全疑慮我們剛剛已經講完了嘛就技術問題略克我想問內政部這樣問一個問題好了就是說你們有沒有了解比如說我們有多少全台灣有多少公寓大廈有一些數據的資料國土署長救援一下也可以\n目前了解大概有4萬多啦4萬多棟公寓大廈他們都有管理組織嗎就是現在公寓有對不對有納管的其中有多少有在討論電動裝的問題\n就我知道啦其實在六都的應該非常非常多都已經在討論而且討論完沒有結論的應該更多了很好我想署長有碰觸到問題的核心啦就第一這個大部分人都有遇到這個問題不管裝了或沒裝大家都有討論這個事然後第二個很多時候是不了了之或者是最後沒有辦法升裝然後甚至有多少社區因為這樣吵架對簿公堂的搞不好也都有對不對所以\n當然我們就剛剛這個其實很多委員都問過了就是說你現在針對大廈管理這件事情你要如何來做指引跟導引因為你這個國土署你曾經發布過新聞嘛你講說我要協助社區建立共識對不對署長所以你應該有一定的政策目標跟KPI我們先講現在實務上操作你是鼓勵地方政府去提出相關的注意事項或者是指引對不對但就出現一個問題啦有些縣市\n方法不一樣你看表格有的是指導跟注意事項有的有因為社區的社區的核心運作就是靠規約嘛所以有些乾脆有把規約範本有提供出來讓大家可以做參考有一些有有一些沒有那更好更比較糟糕的是除了六都以外相對來講其他縣市就連相關的指引都沒有了\n那我想請問這個中央要不要來統合處理第二個如果你要交給因為基於地方自治有地方自需求你怎麼樣確保地方政府有積極在推動這件事請你回答好 感謝委員因為很重要的一點就是說我們現在為什麼由中央的話就必須要把安全的部分先完全考慮清楚對我們講安全的已經我會支持對不對這個安全的標準定出來就可以放到相關的指導或是規約修正裡面\n要去討論這一件事那這也是我們為什麼在今年積極要趕快完成這件事情因為在消防的技術上如果能夠跟防火區劃上如果能夠確認的話我們給各縣市政府的標準就會更一致那也有利於各縣市政府去做相關規約的一個修正我想這是第一點那第二點就是說當然對很多老舊的大樓舊的大樓來講另外一個就是設置的成本的問題\n那這也是為什麼我們在這過程當中也要透過比較全面性的檢討來一方面來確認安全的標準第二個\n可不可以有效的降低設置的成本那這些成本有些是管委會要負擔的有些是車主本身要負擔的我們再進一步把它做一些界定那這些界定就會到時候會跟經濟部跟交通部去討論看看這些成本的負擔上面怎麼去做一個區分那這樣的話我想對各個管委會來講就會更清楚更有更清楚的答案才可以剛剛署長的回答基本上是一個方向性的回答\n我們希望 既然都已經排了專案報我們將有更具體的一些數據包含到底有多少的案例那我這希望希望這個內政部裡面去做一下調查我知道你們工藝大廈管理人力是非常缺的整個缺四萬多個你們才幾個人我記得加約聘不到十個人啦\n對加一個科然後這樣子的人員編制其實在地方政府也是一樣我是覺得該做一下調整公寓大廈是越來越多人選擇特別是年輕的族群會居住的地方這管理問題值得深思那剛剛署長有講幾個至少大家看到一點方向也就是說當然你要配合因為我們剛剛講安全跟社區溝通兩個問題一起解決所以你的安全一些相關的法規跟規範要先有個譜嘛那請問這樣子的東西的時間表是什麼也就是說你打算什麼時候完成相關\n規範的設計他要不要經過立法院審議討論什麼時候會有一個具體結果然後以至於推動未來你會有一個統一的指引標準讓整個環境變得更友善跟委員報告大概就今年內的是先希望把消防安全的部分\n先做確認 第一個確認以後可能在消防方面的規定還有我們建築紀律規則的規定這一個部分我們就希望能進一步去修因為他就不需要再透過立法的他應該是行政規則可以處理你說今年 現在是今年是3月13到12月也是今年5月也是今年那有沒有再明確一點的時間表\n我想可能就是未來這三個月跟消防署跟建研所這邊把這個技術的部分都確認以後我們今天竟然都看了專案報告就表示其實我看執行委員都還蠻踴躍的啦所以我希望這個速度可以加快那第二個相關公寓大廈管理條例總要調整不見得只是針對充電樁公寓大廈這個法規是非常陳舊過時的\n部裡面現在有沒有安排修法的計畫報告其實原來已經有一個版本在行政院那所以如果這個技術如果討論的確認的話需要跟院再溝通修版本的話我們會再跟院來溝通把那個版本做一些修正你們今年會提出公寓大廈管理條例的修法版本嗎就從治理的角度我們是希望啦希望今年可以提出來有這樣子的目標\n市長回去 部長這邊可以多加油我想這種民生法案大家都會很樂意來做討論那我們回到管理的問題啦最後一個質疑其實社區遇到的問題我也就不再拷問大家了啦能不能裝 裝在哪裡怎麼裝 誰出錢怎麼管\n你們四萬多個大廈有多少個大廈有遇過這樣的問題剛剛署長講很多這些問題是哪一關出了問題是可不可以裝出的問題還是怎麼分錢出的問題還是管理出的問題其實它值得詳細的調查啦我現在希望就是說未來我們要討論安全區劃之外也要修公寓大廈管理條例但是我現在覺得針對這樣子一個題目的研究和田野調查其實是非常少的\n不管是中央來做或者是你要補助地方來做或者是你要一起做你要委外我都接受但是我希望看到這個我們的內政部針對大廈管理這件事情你可以充電樁作為一個研究案例你至少要了解問題出在哪吧我才會知道未來我在討論公寓大廈管理條例或者是我在發布政策指引的時候我應該怎麼辦\n那麼針對這樣子的一個研究的案子或研究的報告部裡面有沒有想法還是大家要瞎子摸象大家憑感覺這樣好像也不太好對不對對我說明一下好了因為其實我剛剛第一次回答的那個幾個處理節奏可能就是在解決這些問題也就是說安全規範出來了其實怎麼裝大概其實答案都出來了大家就知道了嘛但是重點在於說誰出錢\n對有多少責任是管委會多少責任是車主多少可能還要甚至回到車商沒有哪一些東西是車商應該要負擔的那最後這個統合起來如果確認的話最後就是怎麼管我之所以要把這點出來的原因為什麼我講他要做個研究案的原因就是因為你要先知道主要的問題出在哪一階段\n因為這每一個問題背後都有一套政策邏輯嘛能不能裝人家安全的問題怎麼出錢可能試測未來要不要因為推動電動車要有補助對不對 那是完全不一樣政策邏輯但你要知道主要的問題出在哪才能知道這個事我是希望內幕裡面可以整理詳細的數據啦就是說就你的了解到底大部分卡關卡在哪一關我們才能知道下一次我們要追蹤這個題目的時候要來怎麼樣來做處理啦希望這個部分部裡面來加油好嗎好辛苦了謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.126 --> 00:10.667\n好謝謝主席董事長有請請董事長\n\n00:19.603 --> 00:35.396\n市長辛苦了我們再次確認一下環境部公布的淨零碳排的目標包含大幅提升電動車的一個佔比有助於推動淨零碳排這樣的一個大的核心的方向內政部要不要配合內政部是全力配合內政部要全力配合對不對\n\n00:36.537 --> 01:01.862\n那這個我想市長應該不會反對啦在公寓大廈裡面廣設電動樁讓這個總體來講的環境不管是你路外的停車場也好或者是公寓大廈裡面讓它變得跟電動車對電動車相對友善應該是有助於推動這樣子的政策目標對不對是這個前提我們要把它確認好嘛對不對但實務上來講當進入到實際上操作的階段的時候當然就遇到了很多的阻力啦\n\n01:02.242 --> 01:13.235\n我們今天專案報告的題目是工藝大廈裝設電動車輛的充電裝置的種種的疑難雜症請問從次長的角度來看你作為主管機關這個最大的阻力是什麼\n\n01:13.817 --> 01:38.617\n我想跟謝謝召委也謝謝各位委員今天的指教其實最關鍵的還是在安全的部分我想包括說特別是在地下設置的時候因為地下通常都為單一出口所以它一旦發生不可測試是時候最近當然因為有幾個這個電動車自燃的案件那當然就會出現安全上的疑慮這個本席不反對但其實大概就是四件事情啦\n\n01:38.837 --> 02:00.649\n一個叫法規有限制嘛比如說法規硬性規定你不能裝那當然沒話講大家都不能說但顯然沒有這個問題對不對因為是可以的第二個是很多的技術問題今天我們之所以找台電找經濟部特別要報告其實就是確定其實在技術上它也是可行的所以我覺得技術問題也是小事即便說有一些老舊你要重新拉線技術上基本上都可以克服其實最大是後面這兩個問題第一個剛剛是你\n\n02:02.310 --> 02:23.548\n市長你提到的有關安全的疑慮也就是說我的防火防災怎麼樣去確定可以維持社區的一個品質那另外一個我想是今天也有很多委員有提到但我想是我今天要更加強調的其實是社區內部的溝通問題啊我現在先從安全問題來出發安全疑慮啊跟你減碳的大目標兩個現在看起來有點打架怎麼辦\n\n02:24.960 --> 02:44.632\n跟委員報告我想安全的疑慮的部分事實上消防署已經公布相關的一些法令規範而且我們也補充了補足在地方政府所需要的一些消防設備同時我們也訓練我們的消防弟兄們針對電動車意外的一些相關的救援方式所以這個部分我們都在精進當中\n\n02:45.532 --> 03:06.810\n我可不可以這樣解釋就是說按照市長剛剛的說明你已經推出了很多的政策目標不管是中央來做地方來做或是一起來做其實也是從用技術的手段去降低安全的疑慮是所以可以說是技術手段可以克服的問題對不對對在一定層次上所以某一些層面安全疑慮我們當然希望內政部積極來做執行但基本上大家也覺得這是一個可以被克服的目標\n\n03:07.270 --> 03:30.858\n所以他不會因為有安全的疑慮所以我就抵觸了現在環境部也好淨零碳排廣設電動裝推動電動車這樣的初衷不會抵觸嘛對不對OK那我們就談那我們就往下談啦安全問題可以技術克服但是最大的問題其實是社區管理嘛剛剛即便張宏祿召委也有講新的大樓有新的規範但即便有新的規範有預留管線要不要做充電裝是不是還是要過管委會這一關\n\n03:32.134 --> 03:50.942\n原則上還是由管委會來共同決定還是由管委會來共同決定對不對所以我講最大的問題就是社區管理這個以內政部到目前為止的了解你覺得這個冬浴大廈裝電動裝的問題是不是普遍出現在各個社區的一個疑難雜症或者是一個很難處理的公共議題是或不是\n\n03:52.083 --> 04:07.795\n我想這個真正的關鍵還是回歸到第一個問題就是說如果它不是一個就是我們在安全上面可以達到一定程度的時候事實上它本身的疑慮就會下降我這安全疑慮我們剛剛已經講完了嘛就技術問題略克我想問內政部這樣問一個問題好了就是說你們有沒有了解比如說我們有多少全台灣有多少公寓大廈有一些數據的資料國土署長救援一下也可以\n\n04:20.865 --> 04:30.669\n目前了解大概有4萬多啦4萬多棟公寓大廈他們都有管理組織嗎就是現在公寓有對不對有納管的其中有多少有在討論電動裝的問題\n\n04:32.852 --> 05:00.533\n就我知道啦其實在六都的應該非常非常多都已經在討論而且討論完沒有結論的應該更多了很好我想署長有碰觸到問題的核心啦就第一這個大部分人都有遇到這個問題不管裝了或沒裝大家都有討論這個事然後第二個很多時候是不了了之或者是最後沒有辦法升裝然後甚至有多少社區因為這樣吵架對簿公堂的搞不好也都有對不對所以\n\n05:01.173 --> 05:28.251\n當然我們就剛剛這個其實很多委員都問過了就是說你現在針對大廈管理這件事情你要如何來做指引跟導引因為你這個國土署你曾經發布過新聞嘛你講說我要協助社區建立共識對不對署長所以你應該有一定的政策目標跟KPI我們先講現在實務上操作你是鼓勵地方政府去提出相關的注意事項或者是指引對不對但就出現一個問題啦有些縣市\n\n05:29.608 --> 05:50.379\n方法不一樣你看表格有的是指導跟注意事項有的有因為社區的社區的核心運作就是靠規約嘛所以有些乾脆有把規約範本有提供出來讓大家可以做參考有一些有有一些沒有那更好更比較糟糕的是除了六都以外相對來講其他縣市就連相關的指引都沒有了\n\n05:50.979 --> 06:19.836\n那我想請問這個中央要不要來統合處理第二個如果你要交給因為基於地方自治有地方自需求你怎麼樣確保地方政府有積極在推動這件事請你回答好感謝委員因為很重要的一點就是說我們現在為什麼由中央的話就必須要把安全的部分先完全考慮清楚對我們講安全的已經我會支持對不對這個安全的標準定出來就可以放到相關的指導或是規約修正裡面\n\n06:20.396 --> 06:47.459\n要去討論這一件事那這也是我們為什麼在今年積極要趕快完成這件事情因為在消防的技術上如果能夠跟防火區劃上如果能夠確認的話我們給各縣市政府的標準就會更一致那也有利於各縣市政府去做相關規約的一個修正我想這是第一點那第二點就是說當然對很多老舊的大樓舊的大樓來講另外一個就是設置的成本的問題\n\n06:48.300 --> 06:56.002\n那這也是為什麼我們在這過程當中也要透過比較全面性的檢討來一方面來確認安全的標準第二個\n\n06:56.929 --> 07:21.378\n可不可以有效的降低設置的成本那這些成本有些是管委會要負擔的有些是車主本身要負擔的我們再進一步把它做一些界定那這些界定就會到時候會跟經濟部跟交通部去討論看看這些成本的負擔上面怎麼去做一個區分那這樣的話我想對各個管委會來講就會更清楚更有更清楚的答案才可以剛剛署長的回答基本上是一個方向性的回答\n\n07:21.618 --> 07:37.868\n我們希望既然都已經排了專案報我們將有更具體的一些數據包含到底有多少的案例那我這希望希望這個內政部裡面去做一下調查我知道你們工藝大廈管理人力是非常缺的整個缺四萬多個你們才幾個人我記得加約聘不到十個人啦\n\n07:38.408 --> 08:04.063\n對加一個科然後這樣子的人員編制其實在地方政府也是一樣我是覺得該做一下調整公寓大廈是越來越多人選擇特別是年輕的族群會居住的地方這管理問題值得深思那剛剛署長有講幾個至少大家看到一點方向也就是說當然你要配合因為我們剛剛講安全跟社區溝通兩個問題一起解決所以你的安全一些相關的法規跟規範要先有個譜嘛那請問這樣子的東西的時間表是什麼也就是說你打算什麼時候完成相關\n\n08:05.443 --> 08:19.253\n規範的設計他要不要經過立法院審議討論什麼時候會有一個具體結果然後以至於推動未來你會有一個統一的指引標準讓整個環境變得更友善跟委員報告大概就今年內的是先希望把消防安全的部分\n\n08:20.074 --> 08:40.280\n先做確認第一個確認以後可能在消防方面的規定還有我們建築紀律規則的規定這一個部分我們就希望能進一步去修因為他就不需要再透過立法的他應該是行政規則可以處理你說今年現在是今年是3月13到12月也是今年5月也是今年那有沒有再明確一點的時間表\n\n08:41.580 --> 08:59.438\n我想可能就是未來這三個月跟消防署跟建研所這邊把這個技術的部分都確認以後我們今天竟然都看了專案報告就表示其實我看執行委員都還蠻踴躍的啦所以我希望這個速度可以加快那第二個相關公寓大廈管理條例總要調整不見得只是針對充電樁公寓大廈這個法規是非常陳舊過時的\n\n09:02.961 --> 09:25.017\n部裡面現在有沒有安排修法的計畫報告其實原來已經有一個版本在行政院那所以如果這個技術如果討論的確認的話需要跟院再溝通修版本的話我們會再跟院來溝通把那個版本做一些修正你們今年會提出公寓大廈管理條例的修法版本嗎就從治理的角度我們是希望啦希望今年可以提出來有這樣子的目標\n\n09:26.358 --> 09:40.534\n市長回去部長這邊可以多加油我想這種民生法案大家都會很樂意來做討論那我們回到管理的問題啦最後一個質疑其實社區遇到的問題我也就不再拷問大家了啦能不能裝裝在哪裡怎麼裝誰出錢怎麼管\n\n09:42.622 --> 10:07.322\n你們四萬多個大廈有多少個大廈有遇過這樣的問題剛剛署長講很多這些問題是哪一關出了問題是可不可以裝出的問題還是怎麼分錢出的問題還是管理出的問題其實它值得詳細的調查啦我現在希望就是說未來我們要討論安全區劃之外也要修公寓大廈管理條例但是我現在覺得針對這樣子一個題目的研究和田野調查其實是非常少的\n\n10:07.728 --> 10:27.823\n不管是中央來做或者是你要補助地方來做或者是你要一起做你要委外我都接受但是我希望看到這個我們的內政部針對大廈管理這件事情你可以充電樁作為一個研究案例你至少要了解問題出在哪吧我才會知道未來我在討論公寓大廈管理條例或者是我在發布政策指引的時候我應該怎麼辦\n\n10:29.192 --> 10:50.621\n那麼針對這樣子的一個研究的案子或研究的報告部裡面有沒有想法還是大家要瞎子摸象大家憑感覺這樣好像也不太好對不對對我說明一下好了因為其實我剛剛第一次回答的那個幾個處理節奏可能就是在解決這些問題也就是說安全規範出來了其實怎麼裝大概其實答案都出來了大家就知道了嘛但是重點在於說誰出錢\n\n10:52.342 --> 11:11.852\n對有多少責任是管委會多少責任是車主多少可能還要甚至回到車商沒有哪一些東西是車商應該要負擔的那最後這個統合起來如果確認的話最後就是怎麼管我之所以要把這點出來的原因為什麼我講他要做個研究案的原因就是因為你要先知道主要的問題出在哪一階段\n\n11:12.412 --> 11:38.185\n因為這每一個問題背後都有一套政策邏輯嘛能不能裝人家安全的問題怎麼出錢可能試測未來要不要因為推動電動車要有補助對不對那是完全不一樣政策邏輯但你要知道主要的問題出在哪才能知道這個事我是希望內幕裡面可以整理詳細的數據啦就是說就你的了解到底大部分卡關卡在哪一關我們才能知道下一次我們要追蹤這個題目的時候要來怎麼樣來做處理啦希望這個部分部裡面來加油好嗎好辛苦了謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.126,"end":10.667,"text":"好謝謝主席 董事長有請請董事長"},{"start":19.603,"end":35.396,"text":"市長辛苦了我們再次確認一下環境部公布的淨零碳排的目標包含大幅提升電動車的一個佔比有助於推動淨零碳排這樣的一個大的核心的方向內政部要不要配合內政部是全力配合內政部要全力配合對不對"},{"start":36.537,"end":61.862,"text":"那這個我想市長應該不會反對啦在公寓大廈裡面廣設電動樁讓這個總體來講的環境不管是你路外的停車場也好或者是公寓大廈裡面讓它變得跟電動車對電動車相對友善應該是有助於推動這樣子的政策目標對不對是這個前提我們要把它確認好嘛對不對但實務上來講當進入到實際上操作的階段的時候當然就遇到了很多的阻力啦"},{"start":62.242,"end":73.235,"text":"我們今天專案報告的題目是工藝大廈裝設電動車輛的充電裝置的種種的疑難雜症請問從次長的角度來看你作為主管機關這個最大的阻力是什麼"},{"start":73.817,"end":98.617,"text":"我想跟謝謝召委也謝謝各位委員今天的指教其實最關鍵的還是在安全的部分我想包括說特別是在地下設置的時候因為地下通常都為單一出口所以它一旦發生不可測試是時候最近當然因為有幾個這個電動車自燃的案件那當然就會出現安全上的疑慮這個本席不反對但其實大概就是四件事情啦"},{"start":98.837,"end":120.649,"text":"一個叫法規有限制嘛比如說法規硬性規定你不能裝那當然沒話講大家都不能說但顯然沒有這個問題對不對因為是可以的第二個是很多的技術問題今天我們之所以找台電找經濟部特別要報告其實就是確定其實在技術上它也是可行的所以我覺得技術問題也是小事即便說有一些老舊你要重新拉線技術上基本上都可以克服其實最大是後面這兩個問題第一個剛剛是你"},{"start":122.31,"end":143.548,"text":"市長你提到的有關安全的疑慮也就是說我的防火防災怎麼樣去確定可以維持社區的一個品質那另外一個我想是今天也有很多委員有提到但我想是我今天要更加強調的其實是社區內部的溝通問題啊我現在先從安全問題來出發安全疑慮啊跟你減碳的大目標兩個現在看起來有點打架怎麼辦"},{"start":144.96,"end":164.632,"text":"跟委員報告我想安全的疑慮的部分事實上消防署已經公布相關的一些法令規範而且我們也補充了補足在地方政府所需要的一些消防設備同時我們也訓練我們的消防弟兄們針對電動車意外的一些相關的救援方式所以這個部分我們都在精進當中"},{"start":165.532,"end":186.81,"text":"我可不可以這樣解釋就是說按照市長剛剛的說明你已經推出了很多的政策目標不管是中央來做地方來做或是一起來做其實也是從用技術的手段去降低安全的疑慮是所以可以說是技術手段可以克服的問題對不對對在一定層次上所以某一些層面安全疑慮我們當然希望內政部積極來做執行但基本上大家也覺得這是一個可以被克服的目標"},{"start":187.27,"end":210.858,"text":"所以他不會因為有安全的疑慮所以我就抵觸了現在環境部也好淨零碳排廣設電動裝推動電動車這樣的初衷不會抵觸嘛對不對OK那我們就談那我們就往下談啦安全問題可以技術克服但是最大的問題其實是社區管理嘛剛剛即便張宏祿召委也有講新的大樓有新的規範但即便有新的規範有預留管線要不要做充電裝是不是還是要過管委會這一關"},{"start":212.134,"end":230.942,"text":"原則上還是由管委會來共同決定還是由管委會來共同決定對不對所以我講最大的問題就是社區管理這個以內政部到目前為止的了解你覺得這個冬浴大廈裝電動裝的問題是不是普遍出現在各個社區的一個疑難雜症或者是一個很難處理的公共議題是或不是"},{"start":232.083,"end":247.795,"text":"我想這個真正的關鍵還是回歸到第一個問題就是說如果它不是一個就是我們在安全上面可以達到一定程度的時候事實上它本身的疑慮就會下降我這安全疑慮我們剛剛已經講完了嘛就技術問題略克我想問內政部這樣問一個問題好了就是說你們有沒有了解比如說我們有多少全台灣有多少公寓大廈有一些數據的資料國土署長救援一下也可以"},{"start":260.865,"end":270.669,"text":"目前了解大概有4萬多啦4萬多棟公寓大廈他們都有管理組織嗎就是現在公寓有對不對有納管的其中有多少有在討論電動裝的問題"},{"start":272.852,"end":300.533,"text":"就我知道啦其實在六都的應該非常非常多都已經在討論而且討論完沒有結論的應該更多了很好我想署長有碰觸到問題的核心啦就第一這個大部分人都有遇到這個問題不管裝了或沒裝大家都有討論這個事然後第二個很多時候是不了了之或者是最後沒有辦法升裝然後甚至有多少社區因為這樣吵架對簿公堂的搞不好也都有對不對所以"},{"start":301.173,"end":328.251,"text":"當然我們就剛剛這個其實很多委員都問過了就是說你現在針對大廈管理這件事情你要如何來做指引跟導引因為你這個國土署你曾經發布過新聞嘛你講說我要協助社區建立共識對不對署長所以你應該有一定的政策目標跟KPI我們先講現在實務上操作你是鼓勵地方政府去提出相關的注意事項或者是指引對不對但就出現一個問題啦有些縣市"},{"start":329.608,"end":350.379,"text":"方法不一樣你看表格有的是指導跟注意事項有的有因為社區的社區的核心運作就是靠規約嘛所以有些乾脆有把規約範本有提供出來讓大家可以做參考有一些有有一些沒有那更好更比較糟糕的是除了六都以外相對來講其他縣市就連相關的指引都沒有了"},{"start":350.979,"end":379.836,"text":"那我想請問這個中央要不要來統合處理第二個如果你要交給因為基於地方自治有地方自需求你怎麼樣確保地方政府有積極在推動這件事請你回答好 感謝委員因為很重要的一點就是說我們現在為什麼由中央的話就必須要把安全的部分先完全考慮清楚對我們講安全的已經我會支持對不對這個安全的標準定出來就可以放到相關的指導或是規約修正裡面"},{"start":380.396,"end":407.459,"text":"要去討論這一件事那這也是我們為什麼在今年積極要趕快完成這件事情因為在消防的技術上如果能夠跟防火區劃上如果能夠確認的話我們給各縣市政府的標準就會更一致那也有利於各縣市政府去做相關規約的一個修正我想這是第一點那第二點就是說當然對很多老舊的大樓舊的大樓來講另外一個就是設置的成本的問題"},{"start":408.3,"end":416.002,"text":"那這也是為什麼我們在這過程當中也要透過比較全面性的檢討來一方面來確認安全的標準第二個"},{"start":416.929,"end":441.378,"text":"可不可以有效的降低設置的成本那這些成本有些是管委會要負擔的有些是車主本身要負擔的我們再進一步把它做一些界定那這些界定就會到時候會跟經濟部跟交通部去討論看看這些成本的負擔上面怎麼去做一個區分那這樣的話我想對各個管委會來講就會更清楚更有更清楚的答案才可以剛剛署長的回答基本上是一個方向性的回答"},{"start":441.618,"end":457.868,"text":"我們希望 既然都已經排了專案報我們將有更具體的一些數據包含到底有多少的案例那我這希望希望這個內政部裡面去做一下調查我知道你們工藝大廈管理人力是非常缺的整個缺四萬多個你們才幾個人我記得加約聘不到十個人啦"},{"start":458.408,"end":484.063,"text":"對加一個科然後這樣子的人員編制其實在地方政府也是一樣我是覺得該做一下調整公寓大廈是越來越多人選擇特別是年輕的族群會居住的地方這管理問題值得深思那剛剛署長有講幾個至少大家看到一點方向也就是說當然你要配合因為我們剛剛講安全跟社區溝通兩個問題一起解決所以你的安全一些相關的法規跟規範要先有個譜嘛那請問這樣子的東西的時間表是什麼也就是說你打算什麼時候完成相關"},{"start":485.443,"end":499.253,"text":"規範的設計他要不要經過立法院審議討論什麼時候會有一個具體結果然後以至於推動未來你會有一個統一的指引標準讓整個環境變得更友善跟委員報告大概就今年內的是先希望把消防安全的部分"},{"start":500.074,"end":520.28,"text":"先做確認 第一個確認以後可能在消防方面的規定還有我們建築紀律規則的規定這一個部分我們就希望能進一步去修因為他就不需要再透過立法的他應該是行政規則可以處理你說今年 現在是今年是3月13到12月也是今年5月也是今年那有沒有再明確一點的時間表"},{"start":521.58,"end":539.438,"text":"我想可能就是未來這三個月跟消防署跟建研所這邊把這個技術的部分都確認以後我們今天竟然都看了專案報告就表示其實我看執行委員都還蠻踴躍的啦所以我希望這個速度可以加快那第二個相關公寓大廈管理條例總要調整不見得只是針對充電樁公寓大廈這個法規是非常陳舊過時的"},{"start":542.961,"end":565.017,"text":"部裡面現在有沒有安排修法的計畫報告其實原來已經有一個版本在行政院那所以如果這個技術如果討論的確認的話需要跟院再溝通修版本的話我們會再跟院來溝通把那個版本做一些修正你們今年會提出公寓大廈管理條例的修法版本嗎就從治理的角度我們是希望啦希望今年可以提出來有這樣子的目標"},{"start":566.358,"end":580.534,"text":"市長回去 部長這邊可以多加油我想這種民生法案大家都會很樂意來做討論那我們回到管理的問題啦最後一個質疑其實社區遇到的問題我也就不再拷問大家了啦能不能裝 裝在哪裡怎麼裝 誰出錢怎麼管"},{"start":582.622,"end":607.322,"text":"你們四萬多個大廈有多少個大廈有遇過這樣的問題剛剛署長講很多這些問題是哪一關出了問題是可不可以裝出的問題還是怎麼分錢出的問題還是管理出的問題其實它值得詳細的調查啦我現在希望就是說未來我們要討論安全區劃之外也要修公寓大廈管理條例但是我現在覺得針對這樣子一個題目的研究和田野調查其實是非常少的"},{"start":607.728,"end":627.823,"text":"不管是中央來做或者是你要補助地方來做或者是你要一起做你要委外我都接受但是我希望看到這個我們的內政部針對大廈管理這件事情你可以充電樁作為一個研究案例你至少要了解問題出在哪吧我才會知道未來我在討論公寓大廈管理條例或者是我在發布政策指引的時候我應該怎麼辦"},{"start":629.192,"end":650.621,"text":"那麼針對這樣子的一個研究的案子或研究的報告部裡面有沒有想法還是大家要瞎子摸象大家憑感覺這樣好像也不太好對不對對我說明一下好了因為其實我剛剛第一次回答的那個幾個處理節奏可能就是在解決這些問題也就是說安全規範出來了其實怎麼裝大概其實答案都出來了大家就知道了嘛但是重點在於說誰出錢"},{"start":652.342,"end":671.852,"text":"對有多少責任是管委會多少責任是車主多少可能還要甚至回到車商沒有哪一些東西是車商應該要負擔的那最後這個統合起來如果確認的話最後就是怎麼管我之所以要把這點出來的原因為什麼我講他要做個研究案的原因就是因為你要先知道主要的問題出在哪一階段"},{"start":672.412,"end":698.185,"text":"因為這每一個問題背後都有一套政策邏輯嘛能不能裝人家安全的問題怎麼出錢可能試測未來要不要因為推動電動車要有補助對不對 那是完全不一樣政策邏輯但你要知道主要的問題出在哪才能知道這個事我是希望內幕裡面可以整理詳細的數據啦就是說就你的了解到底大部分卡關卡在哪一關我們才能知道下一次我們要追蹤這個題目的時候要來怎麼樣來做處理啦希望這個部分部裡面來加油好嗎好辛苦了謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":702,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時1分）好，謝謝主席。董次長有請。"],["主席：請董次長。"],["董次長建宏：召委好。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，次長辛苦了。我們再次確認一下，環境部公布淨零碳排的目標，包含大幅提升電動車的占比，有助於推動淨零碳排這樣一個大的核心方向，內政部要不要配合？"],["董次長建宏：內政部是全力配合。"],["牛委員煦庭：內政部要全力配合，OK，我想次長應該不會反對啦！在公寓大廈裡面廣設電動樁，讓總體的環境不管是路外的停車場也好或公寓大廈裡面，對電動車相對友善應該有助於推動這樣的政策目標，對不對？"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個前提我們要把它確認好。實務上當進入到實際操作階段的時候，當然就遇到很多的阻力。今天專案報告的題目是「公寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置」的種種疑難雜症，請問從次長的角度來看，作為主管機關最大的阻力是什麼？"],["董次長建宏：謝謝召委、也謝謝各位委員今天的指教。其實最關鍵的還是在安全的部分，特別是在地下設置的時候，因為地下通常都為單一出口，所以它一旦發生不可測之事……"],["牛委員煦庭：最近因為有幾個電動車自燃的案件，當然就會出現安全上的疑慮，這個本席不反對。但大概就是4件事情，一個叫法規有限制，比如法規硬性規定你不能裝，那就沒話講，大家都不能說，但顯然沒有這個問題，因為是可以的；第二個是很多的技術問題，今天我們之所以找臺電、找經濟部，特別讓他報告，就是確定在技術上它也是可行的，所以我覺得技術問題也是小事，即便有一些老舊要重新拉線，技術上基本都可以克服。其實最大的後面這兩個問題，第一個，剛剛是次長提到有關安全的疑慮，也就是我的防火、防災怎麼樣去確定可以維持社區的品質？另外一個，今天也有很多委員提到，但是我今天更加要強調的是社區內部溝通問題。"],["董次長建宏：嗯、嗯。"],["牛委員煦庭：我先從安全問題來出發，安全疑慮跟減碳的大目標，兩個現在看起來有點打架，怎麼辦？"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，我想安全疑慮部分，事實上消防署已經公布相關的法令規範。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["董次長建宏：而且我們也補足在地方政府所需要的一些消防設備，同時也訓練消防弟兄們，針對電動車意外的相關救援方式，所以這個部分我們都在精進當中。"],["牛委員煦庭：我可不可以這樣解釋，按照次長剛剛的說明，你已經推出了很多政策目標，不管是中央來做、地方來做或一起來做，其實也是用技術手段去降低安全的疑慮。"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以可以說是技術手段可以克服的問題，對不對？"],["董次長建宏：對，在一定層次上。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以某些層面安全疑慮，我們當然希望內政部積極執行，但基本上大家也覺得這是一個可以被克服的目標，所以它不會因為有安全的疑慮就牴觸了現在包括環境部也好，淨零碳排廣設電動樁、推動電動車這樣的初衷，不會牴觸嘛，對不對？"],["董次長建宏：不會。"],["牛委員煦庭：OK，那我們就往下談，安全問題可以技術克服，但是最大的問題是社區管理，剛剛張宏陸召委也有講新的大樓有新的規範，但即便有新的規範、有預留管線，要不要做充電樁是不是還要過管委會這一關？"],["董次長建宏：原則上還是由管委會來共同決定。"],["牛委員煦庭：還是由管委會來共同決定，所以我講最大的問題就是社區管理。以內政部到目前為止的了解，你覺得公寓大廈裝電動樁的問題，是不是普遍出現在各個社區的一個疑難雜症，或是一個很難處理的公共議題，是或不是？"],["董次長建宏：好，我想這個真正的關鍵還是回歸第一個問題，就是我們在安全上面可以達到一定程度的時候，事實上它本身的疑慮就會下降。"],["牛委員煦庭：我知道安全疑慮，我們剛剛已經講完了嘛！就是技術問題可以克服。"],["董次長建宏：對，就是民眾之所以……"],["牛委員煦庭：我問內政部這樣一個問題好了，你們有沒有了解，比如說全臺灣有多少公寓大廈？有沒有一個數據的資料？國土署長救援一下也可以。"],["吳署長欣修：目前了解大概有四萬多。"],["牛委員煦庭：四萬多棟公寓大廈，它們都有管理組織嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：就是現在登記有……"],["牛委員煦庭：都有管委會。"],["吳署長欣修：對、對、對。"],["牛委員煦庭：有納管的。其中有多少在討論電動樁問題？"],["吳署長欣修：就我知道在六都應該非常、非常多都已經在討論，而且討論完沒有結論的應該更多。"],["牛委員煦庭：很好，我想署長有碰觸到問題的核心。"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：第一，大部分人都有遇到這個問題，不管裝了或沒裝，大家都有討論這個事；第二個，很多時候是不了了之或最後沒有辦法申裝，甚至有多少社區因為這樣吵架、對簿公堂的搞不好也都有，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：剛剛這個問題其實很多委員都問過了，就是現在針對大廈管理這件事情，你要如何來做指引跟導引？因為國土署曾經發布新聞講說要協助社區建立共識，對不對？署長，所以你應該有一定的政策目標跟KPI。我們先講現在實務上操作，你是鼓勵地方政府去提出相關的注意事項或指引，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：但就出現一個問題，有些縣市方法不一樣，你看表格有的是指導跟注意事項，因為社區的核心運作就是靠規約，所以有些乾脆把規約範本提供出來，讓大家可以做參考，有一些有、有一些沒有，比較糟糕的是除了六都以外，相對其他縣市就連相關的指引都沒有了。我想請問中央要不要來統合處理？第二個，因為基於地方自治有地方之需求，你怎麼樣確保地方政府有積極在推動這件事，請你回答。"],["吳署長欣修：好，感謝委員。因為很重要一點就是我們現在為什麼由中央的話，就必須要把安全的部分先完全考慮清楚。"],["牛委員煦庭：我想安全的部分已經著手，我們會支持。"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下，安全的標準訂出來就可以放到相關的指導或規約修正裡面去討論，這也是我們為什麼今年要積極趕快完成這件事情，因為在消防的技術上跟防火區劃上，如果能夠確認的話，我們給各縣市政府的標準就會更一致，也有利於各縣市政府去做相關規約的修正，我想這第一點；第二點，當然對很多老舊的大樓來講，另外一個就是設置成本的問題，這也是為什麼我們在這過程當中，也要透過比較全面性的檢討，一方面來確認安全的標準，第二個可不可以有效降低設置的成本，這些成本有些是管委會要負擔，有些是車主本身要負擔的。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯。"],["吳署長欣修：我們再進一步把它做一些界定，這些界定到時候會跟經濟部、跟交通部去討論，看看這些成本的負擔怎麼區分，這樣的話我想對各個管委會就會有更清楚的答案，可以依循……"],["牛委員煦庭：剛剛署長的回答，基本上是一個方向性的回答，但我們既然都已經排了專案報告，希望看到更具體的數據，包含到底有多少的案例？我希望內政部去做一下調查，我知道你們公寓大廈在管理人力上是非常缺的，整個四萬多個，你們才幾個人？"],["吳署長欣修：才一個科。"],["牛委員煦庭：我記得加約聘不到10個人。"],["吳署長欣修：對，加一個科。"],["牛委員煦庭：這樣子的人員編制，其實在地方政府也是一樣，我是覺得該做一下調整，公寓大廈是越來越多人的選擇，特別是年輕族群會居住的地方，這個管理問題值得深思。剛剛署長有講幾個，至少大家看到一點方向，當然你要配合，因為我們剛剛講安全跟社區溝通兩個問題一起解決，所以安全相關的法規跟規範要先有個譜，請問這樣子的東西時間表是什麼？也就是你打算什麼時候完成相關規範的設計？它要不要經過立法院審議討論？什麼時候會有一個具體結果？以致於未來推動會有一個統一指引標準，讓整個環境變得更友善。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，大概就今年內希望把消防安全的部分先做確認，第一個確認以後，可能在消防方面的規定，還有建築技術規則的規定，這一個部分，我們希望能進一步去修，因為它就不需要再透過立法的程序……"],["牛委員煦庭：它應該是行政規則可以處理。"],["吳署長欣修：對，行政規則。"],["牛委員煦庭：你說今年，今天是3月13日，到12月也是今年，5月也是今年，有沒有再明確一點的時間表？"],["吳署長欣修：我想可能就是這未來這3個月跟消防署跟建研所這邊把技術的部分都確認以後……"],["牛委員煦庭：我們今天既然都開了專案報告，就表示其實……"],["吳署長欣修：我們其實都有這樣的進程……"],["牛委員煦庭：而且我看質詢委員都還滿踴躍的，所以我希望這個速度可以加快。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：第二個，相關公寓大廈管理條例總要調整，不見得只是針對充電樁，公寓大廈管這個法規是非常陳舊過時的，部裡面現在有沒有安排修法的計畫？"],["吳署長欣修：報告，其實原來已經有一個版本在行政院，所以如果這個技術討論確認的話，需要再跟院溝通，若要修版本的話，我們會再跟院來溝通，把那個版本做一些修正。"],["牛委員煦庭：你們今年會提出公寓大廈管理條例的修法版本，就是從治理的角度，行政院這邊……"],["吳署長欣修：我們是希望今年可以提出來。"],["牛委員煦庭：有這樣子的目標，那就希望次長回去，部長這邊可以多加油，我想這種民生法案大家都會很樂意來做討論。","我們回到管理的問題，最後一個質疑，其實社區遇到的問題，我也就不再拷問大家了，就是能不能裝？裝在哪裡？怎麼裝？誰出錢？怎麼管？你們四萬多個大廈，有多少個大廈有遇過這樣的問題？剛剛署長講很多，這些問題是哪一關出了問題，是可不可以裝出了問題？怎麼分錢出了問題？管理出了問題？其實值得詳細的調查，我現在希望未來我們要討論安全區劃之外，也要修公寓大廈管理條例。我現在覺得針對這樣子一個題目的研究和田野調查，其實是非常少的，不管是中央來做，或者是你要補助地方來做，或者是要一起做、要委外，我都接受。我希望看到內政部，針對大廈管理這件事情，可以以充電樁作為一個研究案例，至少要了解問題出在哪吧？我才會知道未來我在討論公寓大廈管理條例，或者是我在發布政策指引的時候，我應該怎麼辦。針對這樣子的一個研究的案子或研究的報告，部裡面有沒有想法？還是大家要瞎子摸象？大家憑感覺，這樣好像也不太好，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對，我說明一下好了，其實我剛剛第一次回答的那幾個處理節奏，可能就是在解決這些問題，也就是說，安全規範出來了，其實怎麼裝，大概其實答案都出來了。"],["牛委員煦庭：大家就知道了。"],["吳署長欣修：但是重點在於誰出錢，有多少責任是管委會、多少責任是車主、多少責任甚至可能還要回到車商。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯。"],["吳署長欣修：有哪些東西是車商應該要負擔的，這個統合起來，如果確認的話，最後就是怎麼管。"],["牛委員煦庭：我之所以要把這點出來原因，為什麼我講它要做個研究案的原因，就是因為你要先知道主要的問題出在哪一階段，因為這每一個問題背後都有一套政策邏輯，能不能裝是安全的問題，怎麼出錢可能事涉未來要不要因為推動電動車要補助，它是完全不一樣的政策邏輯，但你要知道主要的問題出在哪，才能知道這個事。我是希望內政部裡面可以整理詳細的數據，說就你的了解，到底大部分卡關在哪，我們才能知道下一次我們要追蹤這個題目的時候要怎麼樣做處理，希望這個部分部裡面來加油，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：辛苦了，謝謝。"],["董次長建宏：謝謝委員。"],["主席（牛委員煦庭）：下一位我們請吳琪銘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-2","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","郭昱晴","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","林楚茵","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","蔡易餘","葉元之","高金素梅","丁學忠","翁曉玲","王義川"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公\n寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相\n關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00001"}}}