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\"end\": 705.522, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 705.522, \"end\": 705.823, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 705.823, \"end\": 706.203, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"無\", \"start\": 706.203, \"end\": 706.704, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"錯\"}, {\"word\": \"誤\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 706.704, \"end\": 707.164, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"遺\"}, {\"word\": \"漏\", \"start\": 707.164, \"end\": 707.365, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 707.365, \"end\": 707.385, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"處\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,089 --> 00:00:12,315\n之前有會診這些相關的活動嗎我們在國科的科技大樓有沒有機會來到台中科博館台中科博館我們可以研議一下\n\n2\n00:00:14,255 --> 00:00:37,832\n那科普館是教育部的,我知道,但是畢竟跟科學有關係,我們願意跟教育部合作,可以跟教育部合作嗎?那來到台中一起移師,讓我們來看看小小科學家相關的一些辦理的一個過程,我想帶領一些孩子走向科學家的一個先勤的教育,我想這個國科會是不是可以來到我們台中?是,我們樂意辦理,是。\n\n3\n00:00:39,334 --> 00:00:49,747\n那接下來的這個質詢我可能要比較小心一點我怕這個部分上不要讓你說感覺到我在太過激烈不然你就不來台中辦活動\n\n4\n00:00:51,728 --> 00:01:12,560\n主委我想說,但是時事我們還是要再討論一下,就是台灣吳諾貝爾講這個部分,主委上次有看到一個新聞,你有說丟臉,對不對?這個言語上是用的蠻武斷的,當然我要先講,我感受到的是愛之深,責之切,這樣子幫你詮釋可以嗎?\n\n5\n00:01:14,021 --> 00:01:37,266\n謝謝委員可以吧是我們並沒有要去做任何的批評那但都是為了台灣更好那但是我要講的是說在這一次的專校院長的那個會議呢我想你有提到台灣經濟實力已非小國但本土的努力幾十年任未有諾貝爾獎所以你提到了這句話但是我們看到鄰近幾國\n\n6\n00:01:38,922 --> 00:01:52,910\n包括韓國其實也沒有諾貝爾獎那在這樣子一個說法當中其實引起了一個學界的嘩然那當然網友也是非常熱絡的在探討你有看留言嗎你個人會去看網路留言嗎\n\n7\n00:01:53,971 --> 00:02:17,582\n我沒有時間去看網路的資料我想在這樣子的一個說法當中我是覺得我們還是要探討具體的到底該怎麼辦學界發展的一些本質其實也有很多人想要去探討主委您講完這句話以後我相信主委您是學界出身的您最了解學界的一些狀況您個人覺得問題在哪裡\n\n8\n00:02:20,779 --> 00:02:47,133\n我其實講完那句話以後得到很多大學校長的支持我跟委員報告台灣其實是有實力現在已經有實力是可以去探討一些人類面臨的共同的一些問題然後做出對人類社會有重大貢獻的研究但是現在我們的機制其實還需要再改善我其實當初講這句話是提醒我們所有的大學校長\n\n9\n00:02:48,013 --> 00:03:06,649\n要來檢討我們目前的這個機制因為現在國科會還有教育部已經逐漸在放鬆對於大學的傳統那種叫管理的這個思維因為一個國家的這個科技發展包含科學的研究學術研究以及技術的開發\n\n10\n00:03:07,870 --> 00:03:32,397\n都是仰賴我們最高等的這個教育機構教育體制大學作為一個最高級的教育體制一定要能夠放鬆對自己的限制我們現在很多大學內部的這個內規多如牛毛都是在限制自己我們已經放鬆了一些法令規章其實大學還有很多是自我束縛沒有鬆綁的這個都是校長的責任我期待是他們要做這個事情\n\n11\n00:03:32,657 --> 00:03:48,869\n那我舉幾個我們面臨到的一個挑戰我們大家探討一下其實學術的評鑑制度的一個僵化以及教授為了升等被迫拼論文的一個數量那沒有辦法投入長期的一個突破性研究那我想國際學術交流的機制不足\n\n12\n00:03:49,429 --> 00:04:05,223\n以及台灣學者在頂尖國際研究組織中的比例偏低影響力有限再來是科技資源的分散難以集中支持有突破性的研究導致真正有潛力的學者並且無法獲得足夠的資源您覺得呢\n\n13\n00:04:05,763 --> 00:04:34,611\n這個我是同意的我就是為了要各大學要檢討這個事情所以期待他們趕快進行這些所以我剛剛開宗明義就講您是愛之深責之切啦不為過啦都是為了這一個能夠未來我們在科學再拿到諾貝爾來做一個努力那做研究是長期的馬拉松我想你最應該了解那先知我們未來用才找先知謀未來用才找理由\n\n14\n00:04:35,151 --> 00:05:00,509\n那研究從來不是單打獨夠來做才能夠成功而是需要國家的策略政策的規劃與國際的合作跟積累所以我想政府無法提供對策跟解放的話恐怕再過20年還是一樣會在這裡談一樣的問題所以我希望我們知道問題了我們也講出問題了那現階段能不能靠主委在透過制度上來幫忙協助來幫忙改善來做一個改革您覺得有信心嗎\n\n15\n00:05:01,363 --> 00:05:29,178\n我有信心報告委員剛剛您講這些同學卸來反過來對我的批評其實是在批評他們自己我跟大家報告就是說沒有長期研究現在對國會來講這個完全不是理由國會支持多年期的研究已經存在蠻長的時間了但是在大學裡面設定自己設定對學生修讀辦法以論文發表的數量\n\n16\n00:05:30,781 --> 00:05:48,799\n對老師的獎勵也用論文發表的數量對於這個升等也是用論文發表數量等等這種自我限制的這個做法是不對的論文發表是一個傳遞研究成果知識的一個管道它不能叫做研究的成果\n\n17\n00:05:49,820 --> 00:06:10,667\n論文的發表只是其中一個管道你可以公開演講你可以參加討論會你可以到處去宣揚你的理念這個都是傳遞知識的管道書信往來都是但是論文發表的數量當作是一個指標是不對的我期待能夠破除這樣的迷思以對人類社會貢獻\n\n18\n00:06:12,547 --> 00:06:40,826\n為主的這種研究長期的研究我們本來就會都會支持是學校自己要改善自己的制度在這個部分上我覺得還是要多溝通啦但因為你已經有做一個相關的補助或者是相關的支持這我都知道但是看到制度的僵化我剛剛提到的以及論文拼數量那到底還有沒有什麼方法可以去想辦法去做這樣子的一個改革我想跟教育部當然責無旁貸我們大家一起來努力那這個部分還是有勞你我們希望能夠看到改革\n\n19\n00:06:42,587 --> 00:06:59,474\n您的說法是希望這裡更好那我們也願意支持所以今天來做一個探討是好不好我們一起來加油謝謝羅遠好那主委那我想另外再探討去年12月18日第12屆的全國科技會上您在記者會上宣布要組一個晶片台灣隊還記得嗎\n\n20\n00:07:00,894 --> 00:07:23,276\n記者那您表示台灣目前半導體的產業鏈包含IC設計晶圓製造以及封裝測試對接的對象大部分為國外市場也就是說我們半導體產業的鏈的一個製造出來的產品大多是給國外的一個客戶而非供應國內產業的一個需求政治上因與調整具體的調整方向可以和大家說一下嗎\n\n21\n00:07:24,690 --> 00:07:51,009\n我們過去以代工為主的這種產業模式我希望能夠也同時連結到可以支持台灣自己國內的需求而不是說我們買的這些系統的產品都從國外買回來但是供應鏈都是對接到台灣來的所以就是強化內需嘛強化內需是否意味著政府應該要透過政策的引導使台灣的半導體產品能夠更多的應用在國內的產業\n\n22\n00:07:52,290 --> 00:08:14,358\n如果是具體這樣子的話,那你覺得我們具體的政策該怎麼去用一個引導的方式來實施?有沒有一個臨時性的計畫或者是草案?是,我們現在在行政院也有一個機制,政府院長在領導的一些討論目前還在討論就對了我們希望從今年開始,我們各部會編列的這些預算在於這個需求端編列的預算\n\n23\n00:08:15,819 --> 00:08:34,725\n我們希望能夠對接到我們科技產品供應端也能夠把它串聯起來也就是說跨部會的合作以後會變得非常的重要在政策制定跟執行的時候希望能夠也直接鏈接到我們自己的產業鏈我想能夠形成一個常態性的國家戰略這是我們樂觀期程但是這個計畫的規劃期程短中長期\n\n24\n00:08:38,806 --> 00:09:07,785\n我覺得勢必要做出來太久遠的目標我們怕做不到那太短期的又怕短時間力那能不能短中長期能夠做出來這是我們希望能夠看到的我想台積電作為全球最大的一個晶圓代工廠其主要的客戶我們都知道來自美國日本歐洲等科技巨頭顯示台灣的半導體產業已在全球供應鏈中佔有關鍵的地位請問是否認為主委您覺得目前的出口市場不夠穩定才會推動強化內需\n\n25\n00:09:10,447 --> 00:09:23,035\n我們的出口市場當然基於地緣政治的影響,各種新的科技的發生,產業鏈的重組等等,不見得每一個項目都很穩定。當然我們的產業也會隨著市場的遷移,也會調整他們自己。\n\n26\n00:09:29,239 --> 00:09:54,463\n當然我們也希望內需的需求增加能夠讓我們的定位能夠再提升所以我說我們要建立這個晶片台灣隊就是希望我們自己的晶片產業也能夠對待我們自己內需的市場所以我希望喔主委你有沒有進行詳細的市場研究評估未來台灣半導體可能面臨到的一個挑戰例如美國的晶片法案歐盟的半導體法案日本相關的計畫是否將影響台灣的一個外銷需求\n\n27\n00:09:55,003 --> 00:10:15,850\n我想還是因為台積電要去美國的關係主委也急了那如果我們面臨外銷市場仍然穩定為何政府要在這個時候要選擇強化內需您覺得呢我們現在外銷的這個市場不見得會像以前一樣穩定因為現在我們都知道\n\n28\n00:10:17,233 --> 00:10:40,452\n在各國即使是民主國家都會有選舉這種選舉之後的政府決策都會隨著科技的增長國外可能突飛猛進然後也有一些政治因素所以我們也應該要先看到未來所以你也覺得外國外銷市場有可能會趨健於不穩定那我們也防範於未來強化內需我這樣子評斷可以嗎\n\n29\n00:10:41,533 --> 00:11:10,672\n是,是,這個是其中一個很重要的因素,沒有錯。想法內需,同時我們要因應市場的這個轉變,協助我們的廠商全球布局。好,我希望能夠再多做一些評估,台灣到底能不能具備這樣子的成長潛力,能夠支持這樣子的政策轉向,我們希望你能夠多加研究。最後我想講,台灣市場規模有限,半導體的需求主要來自全球市場,而非本地消費端,我們並不像美國、中國有那樣子巨大的中端的一個消費市場。\n\n30\n00:11:11,893 --> 00:11:33,186\n內需市場的擴張幅度有限如果我們推動的內需市場發展卻無法創造足夠的產值跟需求是否可能會導致企業的資源錯配甚至影響台灣整個在全球供應鏈的一個角色這都是我要提到未來的一個方針這個部分我希望能夠再好好的評估我們大家一起努力短中長期的一個企劃能夠趕快出來謝謝好謝謝韋爺\n\n31\n00:11:38,794 --> 00:11:47,385\n謝謝羅廷偉委員這個主委請回座那我們現在請問各位委員上次會議是有無錯誤或遺漏之處\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t12315\t之前有會診這些相關的活動嗎我們在國科的科技大樓有沒有機會來到台中科博館台中科博館我們可以研議一下\n14255\t37832\t那科普館是教育部的,我知道,但是畢竟跟科學有關係,我們願意跟教育部合作,可以跟教育部合作嗎?那來到台中一起移師,讓我們來看看小小科學家相關的一些辦理的一個過程,我想帶領一些孩子走向科學家的一個先勤的教育,我想這個國科會是不是可以來到我們台中?是,我們樂意辦理,是。\n39334\t49747\t那接下來的這個質詢我可能要比較小心一點我怕這個部分上不要讓你說感覺到我在太過激烈不然你就不來台中辦活動\n51728\t72560\t主委我想說,但是時事我們還是要再討論一下,就是台灣吳諾貝爾講這個部分,主委上次有看到一個新聞,你有說丟臉,對不對?這個言語上是用的蠻武斷的,當然我要先講,我感受到的是愛之深,責之切,這樣子幫你詮釋可以嗎?\n74021\t97266\t謝謝委員可以吧是我們並沒有要去做任何的批評那但都是為了台灣更好那但是我要講的是說在這一次的專校院長的那個會議呢我想你有提到台灣經濟實力已非小國但本土的努力幾十年任未有諾貝爾獎所以你提到了這句話但是我們看到鄰近幾國\n98922\t112910\t包括韓國其實也沒有諾貝爾獎那在這樣子一個說法當中其實引起了一個學界的嘩然那當然網友也是非常熱絡的在探討你有看留言嗎你個人會去看網路留言嗎\n113971\t137582\t我沒有時間去看網路的資料我想在這樣子的一個說法當中我是覺得我們還是要探討具體的到底該怎麼辦學界發展的一些本質其實也有很多人想要去探討主委您講完這句話以後我相信主委您是學界出身的您最了解學界的一些狀況您個人覺得問題在哪裡\n140779\t167133\t我其實講完那句話以後得到很多大學校長的支持我跟委員報告台灣其實是有實力現在已經有實力是可以去探討一些人類面臨的共同的一些問題然後做出對人類社會有重大貢獻的研究但是現在我們的機制其實還需要再改善我其實當初講這句話是提醒我們所有的大學校長\n168013\t186649\t要來檢討我們目前的這個機制因為現在國科會還有教育部已經逐漸在放鬆對於大學的傳統那種叫管理的這個思維因為一個國家的這個科技發展包含科學的研究學術研究以及技術的開發\n187870\t212397\t都是仰賴我們最高等的這個教育機構教育體制大學作為一個最高級的教育體制一定要能夠放鬆對自己的限制我們現在很多大學內部的這個內規多如牛毛都是在限制自己我們已經放鬆了一些法令規章其實大學還有很多是自我束縛沒有鬆綁的這個都是校長的責任我期待是他們要做這個事情\n212657\t228869\t那我舉幾個我們面臨到的一個挑戰我們大家探討一下其實學術的評鑑制度的一個僵化以及教授為了升等被迫拼論文的一個數量那沒有辦法投入長期的一個突破性研究那我想國際學術交流的機制不足\n229429\t245223\t以及台灣學者在頂尖國際研究組織中的比例偏低影響力有限再來是科技資源的分散難以集中支持有突破性的研究導致真正有潛力的學者並且無法獲得足夠的資源您覺得呢\n245763\t274611\t這個我是同意的我就是為了要各大學要檢討這個事情所以期待他們趕快進行這些所以我剛剛開宗明義就講您是愛之深 責之切啦不為過啦都是為了這一個能夠未來我們在科學再拿到諾貝爾來做一個努力那做研究是長期的馬拉松我想你最應該了解那先知我們未來用才找先知謀未來用才找理由\n275151\t300509\t那研究從來不是單打獨夠來做才能夠成功而是需要國家的策略政策的規劃與國際的合作跟積累所以我想政府無法提供對策跟解放的話恐怕再過20年還是一樣會在這裡談一樣的問題所以我希望我們知道問題了我們也講出問題了那現階段能不能靠主委在透過制度上來幫忙協助來幫忙改善來做一個改革您覺得有信心嗎\n301363\t329178\t我有信心報告委員剛剛您講這些同學卸來反過來對我的批評其實是在批評他們自己我跟大家報告就是說沒有長期研究現在對國會來講這個完全不是理由國會支持多年期的研究已經存在蠻長的時間了但是在大學裡面設定自己設定對學生修讀辦法以論文發表的數量\n330781\t348799\t對老師的獎勵也用論文發表的數量對於這個升等也是用論文發表數量等等這種自我限制的這個做法是不對的論文發表是一個傳遞研究成果知識的一個管道它不能叫做研究的成果\n349820\t370667\t論文的發表只是其中一個管道你可以公開演講你可以參加討論會你可以到處去宣揚你的理念這個都是傳遞知識的管道書信往來都是但是論文發表的數量當作是一個指標是不對的我期待能夠破除這樣的迷思以對人類社會貢獻\n372547\t400826\t為主的這種研究長期的研究我們本來就會都會支持是學校自己要改善自己的制度在這個部分上我覺得還是要多溝通啦但因為你已經有做一個相關的補助或者是相關的支持這我都知道但是看到制度的僵化我剛剛提到的以及論文拼數量那到底還有沒有什麼方法可以去想辦法去做這樣子的一個改革我想跟教育部當然責無旁貸我們大家一起來努力那這個部分還是有勞你我們希望能夠看到改革\n402587\t419474\t您的說法是希望這裡更好那我們也願意支持所以今天來做一個探討是好不好我們一起來加油謝謝羅遠好那主委那我想另外再探討去年12月18日第12屆的全國科技會上您在記者會上宣布要組一個晶片台灣隊還記得嗎\n420894\t443276\t記者那您表示台灣目前半導體的產業鏈包含IC設計晶圓製造以及封裝測試對接的對象大部分為國外市場也就是說我們半導體產業的鏈的一個製造出來的產品大多是給國外的一個客戶而非供應國內產業的一個需求政治上因與調整具體的調整方向可以和大家說一下嗎\n444690\t471009\t我們過去以代工為主的這種產業模式我希望能夠也同時連結到可以支持台灣自己國內的需求而不是說我們買的這些系統的產品都從國外買回來但是供應鏈都是對接到台灣來的所以就是強化內需嘛強化內需是否意味著政府應該要透過政策的引導使台灣的半導體產品能夠更多的應用在國內的產業\n472290\t494358\t如果是具體這樣子的話,那你覺得我們具體的政策該怎麼去用一個引導的方式來實施?有沒有一個臨時性的計畫或者是草案?是,我們現在在行政院也有一個機制,政府院長在領導的一些討論目前還在討論就對了我們希望從今年開始,我們各部會編列的這些預算在於這個需求端編列的預算\n495819\t514725\t我們希望能夠對接到我們科技產品供應端也能夠把它串聯起來也就是說跨部會的合作以後會變得非常的重要在政策制定跟執行的時候希望能夠也直接鏈接到我們自己的產業鏈我想能夠形成一個常態性的國家戰略這是我們樂觀期程但是這個計畫的規劃期程短中長期\n518806\t547785\t我覺得勢必要做出來太久遠的目標我們怕做不到那太短期的又怕短時間力那能不能短中長期能夠做出來這是我們希望能夠看到的我想台積電作為全球最大的一個晶圓代工廠其主要的客戶我們都知道來自美國日本歐洲等科技巨頭顯示台灣的半導體產業已在全球供應鏈中佔有關鍵的地位請問是否認為主委您覺得目前的出口市場不夠穩定才會推動強化內需\n550447\t563035\t我們的出口市場當然基於地緣政治的影響,各種新的科技的發生,產業鏈的重組等等,不見得每一個項目都很穩定。當然我們的產業也會隨著市場的遷移,也會調整他們自己。\n569239\t594463\t當然我們也希望內需的需求增加能夠讓我們的定位能夠再提升所以我說我們要建立這個晶片台灣隊就是希望我們自己的晶片產業也能夠對待我們自己內需的市場所以我希望喔 主委你有沒有進行詳細的市場研究評估未來台灣半導體可能面臨到的一個挑戰例如美國的晶片法案歐盟的半導體法案日本相關的計畫是否將影響台灣的一個外銷需求\n595003\t615850\t我想還是因為台積電要去美國的關係主委也急了那如果我們面臨外銷市場仍然穩定為何政府要在這個時候要選擇強化內需您覺得呢我們現在外銷的這個市場不見得會像以前一樣穩定因為現在我們都知道\n617233\t640452\t在各國即使是民主國家都會有選舉這種選舉之後的政府決策都會隨著科技的增長國外可能突飛猛進然後也有一些政治因素所以我們也應該要先看到未來所以你也覺得外國外銷市場有可能會趨健於不穩定那我們也防範於未來強化內需我這樣子評斷可以嗎\n641533\t670672\t是,是,這個是其中一個很重要的因素,沒有錯。想法內需,同時我們要因應市場的這個轉變,協助我們的廠商全球布局。好,我希望能夠再多做一些評估,台灣到底能不能具備這樣子的成長潛力,能夠支持這樣子的政策轉向,我們希望你能夠多加研究。最後我想講,台灣市場規模有限,半導體的需求主要來自全球市場,而非本地消費端,我們並不像美國、中國有那樣子巨大的中端的一個消費市場。\n671893\t693186\t內需市場的擴張幅度有限如果我們推動的內需市場發展卻無法創造足夠的產值跟需求是否可能會導致企業的資源錯配甚至影響台灣整個在全球供應鏈的一個角色這都是我要提到未來的一個方針這個部分我希望能夠再好好的評估我們大家一起努力短中長期的一個企劃能夠趕快出來謝謝好 謝謝韋爺\n698794\t707385\t謝謝羅廷偉委員這個主委請回座那我們現在請問各位委員上次會議是有無錯誤或遺漏之處\n","txt":"之前有會診這些相關的活動嗎我們在國科的科技大樓有沒有機會來到台中科博館台中科博館我們可以研議一下\n那科普館是教育部的,我知道,但是畢竟跟科學有關係,我們願意跟教育部合作,可以跟教育部合作嗎?那來到台中一起移師,讓我們來看看小小科學家相關的一些辦理的一個過程,我想帶領一些孩子走向科學家的一個先勤的教育,我想這個國科會是不是可以來到我們台中?是,我們樂意辦理,是。\n那接下來的這個質詢我可能要比較小心一點我怕這個部分上不要讓你說感覺到我在太過激烈不然你就不來台中辦活動\n主委我想說,但是時事我們還是要再討論一下,就是台灣吳諾貝爾講這個部分,主委上次有看到一個新聞,你有說丟臉,對不對?這個言語上是用的蠻武斷的,當然我要先講,我感受到的是愛之深,責之切,這樣子幫你詮釋可以嗎?\n謝謝委員可以吧是我們並沒有要去做任何的批評那但都是為了台灣更好那但是我要講的是說在這一次的專校院長的那個會議呢我想你有提到台灣經濟實力已非小國但本土的努力幾十年任未有諾貝爾獎所以你提到了這句話但是我們看到鄰近幾國\n包括韓國其實也沒有諾貝爾獎那在這樣子一個說法當中其實引起了一個學界的嘩然那當然網友也是非常熱絡的在探討你有看留言嗎你個人會去看網路留言嗎\n我沒有時間去看網路的資料我想在這樣子的一個說法當中我是覺得我們還是要探討具體的到底該怎麼辦學界發展的一些本質其實也有很多人想要去探討主委您講完這句話以後我相信主委您是學界出身的您最了解學界的一些狀況您個人覺得問題在哪裡\n我其實講完那句話以後得到很多大學校長的支持我跟委員報告台灣其實是有實力現在已經有實力是可以去探討一些人類面臨的共同的一些問題然後做出對人類社會有重大貢獻的研究但是現在我們的機制其實還需要再改善我其實當初講這句話是提醒我們所有的大學校長\n要來檢討我們目前的這個機制因為現在國科會還有教育部已經逐漸在放鬆對於大學的傳統那種叫管理的這個思維因為一個國家的這個科技發展包含科學的研究學術研究以及技術的開發\n都是仰賴我們最高等的這個教育機構教育體制大學作為一個最高級的教育體制一定要能夠放鬆對自己的限制我們現在很多大學內部的這個內規多如牛毛都是在限制自己我們已經放鬆了一些法令規章其實大學還有很多是自我束縛沒有鬆綁的這個都是校長的責任我期待是他們要做這個事情\n那我舉幾個我們面臨到的一個挑戰我們大家探討一下其實學術的評鑑制度的一個僵化以及教授為了升等被迫拼論文的一個數量那沒有辦法投入長期的一個突破性研究那我想國際學術交流的機制不足\n以及台灣學者在頂尖國際研究組織中的比例偏低影響力有限再來是科技資源的分散難以集中支持有突破性的研究導致真正有潛力的學者並且無法獲得足夠的資源您覺得呢\n這個我是同意的我就是為了要各大學要檢討這個事情所以期待他們趕快進行這些所以我剛剛開宗明義就講您是愛之深 責之切啦不為過啦都是為了這一個能夠未來我們在科學再拿到諾貝爾來做一個努力那做研究是長期的馬拉松我想你最應該了解那先知我們未來用才找先知謀未來用才找理由\n那研究從來不是單打獨夠來做才能夠成功而是需要國家的策略政策的規劃與國際的合作跟積累所以我想政府無法提供對策跟解放的話恐怕再過20年還是一樣會在這裡談一樣的問題所以我希望我們知道問題了我們也講出問題了那現階段能不能靠主委在透過制度上來幫忙協助來幫忙改善來做一個改革您覺得有信心嗎\n我有信心報告委員剛剛您講這些同學卸來反過來對我的批評其實是在批評他們自己我跟大家報告就是說沒有長期研究現在對國會來講這個完全不是理由國會支持多年期的研究已經存在蠻長的時間了但是在大學裡面設定自己設定對學生修讀辦法以論文發表的數量\n對老師的獎勵也用論文發表的數量對於這個升等也是用論文發表數量等等這種自我限制的這個做法是不對的論文發表是一個傳遞研究成果知識的一個管道它不能叫做研究的成果\n論文的發表只是其中一個管道你可以公開演講你可以參加討論會你可以到處去宣揚你的理念這個都是傳遞知識的管道書信往來都是但是論文發表的數量當作是一個指標是不對的我期待能夠破除這樣的迷思以對人類社會貢獻\n為主的這種研究長期的研究我們本來就會都會支持是學校自己要改善自己的制度在這個部分上我覺得還是要多溝通啦但因為你已經有做一個相關的補助或者是相關的支持這我都知道但是看到制度的僵化我剛剛提到的以及論文拼數量那到底還有沒有什麼方法可以去想辦法去做這樣子的一個改革我想跟教育部當然責無旁貸我們大家一起來努力那這個部分還是有勞你我們希望能夠看到改革\n您的說法是希望這裡更好那我們也願意支持所以今天來做一個探討是好不好我們一起來加油謝謝羅遠好那主委那我想另外再探討去年12月18日第12屆的全國科技會上您在記者會上宣布要組一個晶片台灣隊還記得嗎\n記者那您表示台灣目前半導體的產業鏈包含IC設計晶圓製造以及封裝測試對接的對象大部分為國外市場也就是說我們半導體產業的鏈的一個製造出來的產品大多是給國外的一個客戶而非供應國內產業的一個需求政治上因與調整具體的調整方向可以和大家說一下嗎\n我們過去以代工為主的這種產業模式我希望能夠也同時連結到可以支持台灣自己國內的需求而不是說我們買的這些系統的產品都從國外買回來但是供應鏈都是對接到台灣來的所以就是強化內需嘛強化內需是否意味著政府應該要透過政策的引導使台灣的半導體產品能夠更多的應用在國內的產業\n如果是具體這樣子的話,那你覺得我們具體的政策該怎麼去用一個引導的方式來實施?有沒有一個臨時性的計畫或者是草案?是,我們現在在行政院也有一個機制,政府院長在領導的一些討論目前還在討論就對了我們希望從今年開始,我們各部會編列的這些預算在於這個需求端編列的預算\n我們希望能夠對接到我們科技產品供應端也能夠把它串聯起來也就是說跨部會的合作以後會變得非常的重要在政策制定跟執行的時候希望能夠也直接鏈接到我們自己的產業鏈我想能夠形成一個常態性的國家戰略這是我們樂觀期程但是這個計畫的規劃期程短中長期\n我覺得勢必要做出來太久遠的目標我們怕做不到那太短期的又怕短時間力那能不能短中長期能夠做出來這是我們希望能夠看到的我想台積電作為全球最大的一個晶圓代工廠其主要的客戶我們都知道來自美國日本歐洲等科技巨頭顯示台灣的半導體產業已在全球供應鏈中佔有關鍵的地位請問是否認為主委您覺得目前的出口市場不夠穩定才會推動強化內需\n我們的出口市場當然基於地緣政治的影響,各種新的科技的發生,產業鏈的重組等等,不見得每一個項目都很穩定。當然我們的產業也會隨著市場的遷移,也會調整他們自己。\n當然我們也希望內需的需求增加能夠讓我們的定位能夠再提升所以我說我們要建立這個晶片台灣隊就是希望我們自己的晶片產業也能夠對待我們自己內需的市場所以我希望喔 主委你有沒有進行詳細的市場研究評估未來台灣半導體可能面臨到的一個挑戰例如美國的晶片法案歐盟的半導體法案日本相關的計畫是否將影響台灣的一個外銷需求\n我想還是因為台積電要去美國的關係主委也急了那如果我們面臨外銷市場仍然穩定為何政府要在這個時候要選擇強化內需您覺得呢我們現在外銷的這個市場不見得會像以前一樣穩定因為現在我們都知道\n在各國即使是民主國家都會有選舉這種選舉之後的政府決策都會隨著科技的增長國外可能突飛猛進然後也有一些政治因素所以我們也應該要先看到未來所以你也覺得外國外銷市場有可能會趨健於不穩定那我們也防範於未來強化內需我這樣子評斷可以嗎\n是,是,這個是其中一個很重要的因素,沒有錯。想法內需,同時我們要因應市場的這個轉變,協助我們的廠商全球布局。好,我希望能夠再多做一些評估,台灣到底能不能具備這樣子的成長潛力,能夠支持這樣子的政策轉向,我們希望你能夠多加研究。最後我想講,台灣市場規模有限,半導體的需求主要來自全球市場,而非本地消費端,我們並不像美國、中國有那樣子巨大的中端的一個消費市場。\n內需市場的擴張幅度有限如果我們推動的內需市場發展卻無法創造足夠的產值跟需求是否可能會導致企業的資源錯配甚至影響台灣整個在全球供應鏈的一個角色這都是我要提到未來的一個方針這個部分我希望能夠再好好的評估我們大家一起努力短中長期的一個企劃能夠趕快出來謝謝好 謝謝韋爺\n謝謝羅廷偉委員這個主委請回座那我們現在請問各位委員上次會議是有無錯誤或遺漏之處\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:12.315\n之前有會診這些相關的活動嗎我們在國科的科技大樓有沒有機會來到台中科博館台中科博館我們可以研議一下\n\n00:14.255 --> 00:37.832\n那科普館是教育部的,我知道,但是畢竟跟科學有關係,我們願意跟教育部合作,可以跟教育部合作嗎?那來到台中一起移師,讓我們來看看小小科學家相關的一些辦理的一個過程,我想帶領一些孩子走向科學家的一個先勤的教育,我想這個國科會是不是可以來到我們台中?是,我們樂意辦理,是。\n\n00:39.334 --> 00:49.747\n那接下來的這個質詢我可能要比較小心一點我怕這個部分上不要讓你說感覺到我在太過激烈不然你就不來台中辦活動\n\n00:51.728 --> 01:12.560\n主委我想說,但是時事我們還是要再討論一下,就是台灣吳諾貝爾講這個部分,主委上次有看到一個新聞,你有說丟臉,對不對?這個言語上是用的蠻武斷的,當然我要先講,我感受到的是愛之深,責之切,這樣子幫你詮釋可以嗎?\n\n01:14.021 --> 01:37.266\n謝謝委員可以吧是我們並沒有要去做任何的批評那但都是為了台灣更好那但是我要講的是說在這一次的專校院長的那個會議呢我想你有提到台灣經濟實力已非小國但本土的努力幾十年任未有諾貝爾獎所以你提到了這句話但是我們看到鄰近幾國\n\n01:38.922 --> 01:52.910\n包括韓國其實也沒有諾貝爾獎那在這樣子一個說法當中其實引起了一個學界的嘩然那當然網友也是非常熱絡的在探討你有看留言嗎你個人會去看網路留言嗎\n\n01:53.971 --> 02:17.582\n我沒有時間去看網路的資料我想在這樣子的一個說法當中我是覺得我們還是要探討具體的到底該怎麼辦學界發展的一些本質其實也有很多人想要去探討主委您講完這句話以後我相信主委您是學界出身的您最了解學界的一些狀況您個人覺得問題在哪裡\n\n02:20.779 --> 02:47.133\n我其實講完那句話以後得到很多大學校長的支持我跟委員報告台灣其實是有實力現在已經有實力是可以去探討一些人類面臨的共同的一些問題然後做出對人類社會有重大貢獻的研究但是現在我們的機制其實還需要再改善我其實當初講這句話是提醒我們所有的大學校長\n\n02:48.013 --> 03:06.649\n要來檢討我們目前的這個機制因為現在國科會還有教育部已經逐漸在放鬆對於大學的傳統那種叫管理的這個思維因為一個國家的這個科技發展包含科學的研究學術研究以及技術的開發\n\n03:07.870 --> 03:32.397\n都是仰賴我們最高等的這個教育機構教育體制大學作為一個最高級的教育體制一定要能夠放鬆對自己的限制我們現在很多大學內部的這個內規多如牛毛都是在限制自己我們已經放鬆了一些法令規章其實大學還有很多是自我束縛沒有鬆綁的這個都是校長的責任我期待是他們要做這個事情\n\n03:32.657 --> 03:48.869\n那我舉幾個我們面臨到的一個挑戰我們大家探討一下其實學術的評鑑制度的一個僵化以及教授為了升等被迫拼論文的一個數量那沒有辦法投入長期的一個突破性研究那我想國際學術交流的機制不足\n\n03:49.429 --> 04:05.223\n以及台灣學者在頂尖國際研究組織中的比例偏低影響力有限再來是科技資源的分散難以集中支持有突破性的研究導致真正有潛力的學者並且無法獲得足夠的資源您覺得呢\n\n04:05.763 --> 04:34.611\n這個我是同意的我就是為了要各大學要檢討這個事情所以期待他們趕快進行這些所以我剛剛開宗明義就講您是愛之深責之切啦不為過啦都是為了這一個能夠未來我們在科學再拿到諾貝爾來做一個努力那做研究是長期的馬拉松我想你最應該了解那先知我們未來用才找先知謀未來用才找理由\n\n04:35.151 --> 05:00.509\n那研究從來不是單打獨夠來做才能夠成功而是需要國家的策略政策的規劃與國際的合作跟積累所以我想政府無法提供對策跟解放的話恐怕再過20年還是一樣會在這裡談一樣的問題所以我希望我們知道問題了我們也講出問題了那現階段能不能靠主委在透過制度上來幫忙協助來幫忙改善來做一個改革您覺得有信心嗎\n\n05:01.363 --> 05:29.178\n我有信心報告委員剛剛您講這些同學卸來反過來對我的批評其實是在批評他們自己我跟大家報告就是說沒有長期研究現在對國會來講這個完全不是理由國會支持多年期的研究已經存在蠻長的時間了但是在大學裡面設定自己設定對學生修讀辦法以論文發表的數量\n\n05:30.781 --> 05:48.799\n對老師的獎勵也用論文發表的數量對於這個升等也是用論文發表數量等等這種自我限制的這個做法是不對的論文發表是一個傳遞研究成果知識的一個管道它不能叫做研究的成果\n\n05:49.820 --> 06:10.667\n論文的發表只是其中一個管道你可以公開演講你可以參加討論會你可以到處去宣揚你的理念這個都是傳遞知識的管道書信往來都是但是論文發表的數量當作是一個指標是不對的我期待能夠破除這樣的迷思以對人類社會貢獻\n\n06:12.547 --> 06:40.826\n為主的這種研究長期的研究我們本來就會都會支持是學校自己要改善自己的制度在這個部分上我覺得還是要多溝通啦但因為你已經有做一個相關的補助或者是相關的支持這我都知道但是看到制度的僵化我剛剛提到的以及論文拼數量那到底還有沒有什麼方法可以去想辦法去做這樣子的一個改革我想跟教育部當然責無旁貸我們大家一起來努力那這個部分還是有勞你我們希望能夠看到改革\n\n06:42.587 --> 06:59.474\n您的說法是希望這裡更好那我們也願意支持所以今天來做一個探討是好不好我們一起來加油謝謝羅遠好那主委那我想另外再探討去年12月18日第12屆的全國科技會上您在記者會上宣布要組一個晶片台灣隊還記得嗎\n\n07:00.894 --> 07:23.276\n記者那您表示台灣目前半導體的產業鏈包含IC設計晶圓製造以及封裝測試對接的對象大部分為國外市場也就是說我們半導體產業的鏈的一個製造出來的產品大多是給國外的一個客戶而非供應國內產業的一個需求政治上因與調整具體的調整方向可以和大家說一下嗎\n\n07:24.690 --> 07:51.009\n我們過去以代工為主的這種產業模式我希望能夠也同時連結到可以支持台灣自己國內的需求而不是說我們買的這些系統的產品都從國外買回來但是供應鏈都是對接到台灣來的所以就是強化內需嘛強化內需是否意味著政府應該要透過政策的引導使台灣的半導體產品能夠更多的應用在國內的產業\n\n07:52.290 --> 08:14.358\n如果是具體這樣子的話,那你覺得我們具體的政策該怎麼去用一個引導的方式來實施?有沒有一個臨時性的計畫或者是草案?是,我們現在在行政院也有一個機制,政府院長在領導的一些討論目前還在討論就對了我們希望從今年開始,我們各部會編列的這些預算在於這個需求端編列的預算\n\n08:15.819 --> 08:34.725\n我們希望能夠對接到我們科技產品供應端也能夠把它串聯起來也就是說跨部會的合作以後會變得非常的重要在政策制定跟執行的時候希望能夠也直接鏈接到我們自己的產業鏈我想能夠形成一個常態性的國家戰略這是我們樂觀期程但是這個計畫的規劃期程短中長期\n\n08:38.806 --> 09:07.785\n我覺得勢必要做出來太久遠的目標我們怕做不到那太短期的又怕短時間力那能不能短中長期能夠做出來這是我們希望能夠看到的我想台積電作為全球最大的一個晶圓代工廠其主要的客戶我們都知道來自美國日本歐洲等科技巨頭顯示台灣的半導體產業已在全球供應鏈中佔有關鍵的地位請問是否認為主委您覺得目前的出口市場不夠穩定才會推動強化內需\n\n09:10.447 --> 09:23.035\n我們的出口市場當然基於地緣政治的影響,各種新的科技的發生,產業鏈的重組等等,不見得每一個項目都很穩定。當然我們的產業也會隨著市場的遷移,也會調整他們自己。\n\n09:29.239 --> 09:54.463\n當然我們也希望內需的需求增加能夠讓我們的定位能夠再提升所以我說我們要建立這個晶片台灣隊就是希望我們自己的晶片產業也能夠對待我們自己內需的市場所以我希望喔主委你有沒有進行詳細的市場研究評估未來台灣半導體可能面臨到的一個挑戰例如美國的晶片法案歐盟的半導體法案日本相關的計畫是否將影響台灣的一個外銷需求\n\n09:55.003 --> 10:15.850\n我想還是因為台積電要去美國的關係主委也急了那如果我們面臨外銷市場仍然穩定為何政府要在這個時候要選擇強化內需您覺得呢我們現在外銷的這個市場不見得會像以前一樣穩定因為現在我們都知道\n\n10:17.233 --> 10:40.452\n在各國即使是民主國家都會有選舉這種選舉之後的政府決策都會隨著科技的增長國外可能突飛猛進然後也有一些政治因素所以我們也應該要先看到未來所以你也覺得外國外銷市場有可能會趨健於不穩定那我們也防範於未來強化內需我這樣子評斷可以嗎\n\n10:41.533 --> 11:10.672\n是,是,這個是其中一個很重要的因素,沒有錯。想法內需,同時我們要因應市場的這個轉變,協助我們的廠商全球布局。好,我希望能夠再多做一些評估,台灣到底能不能具備這樣子的成長潛力,能夠支持這樣子的政策轉向,我們希望你能夠多加研究。最後我想講,台灣市場規模有限,半導體的需求主要來自全球市場,而非本地消費端,我們並不像美國、中國有那樣子巨大的中端的一個消費市場。\n\n11:11.893 --> 11:33.186\n內需市場的擴張幅度有限如果我們推動的內需市場發展卻無法創造足夠的產值跟需求是否可能會導致企業的資源錯配甚至影響台灣整個在全球供應鏈的一個角色這都是我要提到未來的一個方針這個部分我希望能夠再好好的評估我們大家一起努力短中長期的一個企劃能夠趕快出來謝謝好謝謝韋爺\n\n11:38.794 --> 11:47.385\n謝謝羅廷偉委員這個主委請回座那我們現在請問各位委員上次會議是有無錯誤或遺漏之處\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":12.315,"text":"之前有會診這些相關的活動嗎我們在國科的科技大樓有沒有機會來到台中科博館台中科博館我們可以研議一下"},{"start":14.255,"end":37.832,"text":"那科普館是教育部的,我知道,但是畢竟跟科學有關係,我們願意跟教育部合作,可以跟教育部合作嗎?那來到台中一起移師,讓我們來看看小小科學家相關的一些辦理的一個過程,我想帶領一些孩子走向科學家的一個先勤的教育,我想這個國科會是不是可以來到我們台中?是,我們樂意辦理,是。"},{"start":39.334,"end":49.747,"text":"那接下來的這個質詢我可能要比較小心一點我怕這個部分上不要讓你說感覺到我在太過激烈不然你就不來台中辦活動"},{"start":51.728,"end":72.56,"text":"主委我想說,但是時事我們還是要再討論一下,就是台灣吳諾貝爾講這個部分,主委上次有看到一個新聞,你有說丟臉,對不對?這個言語上是用的蠻武斷的,當然我要先講,我感受到的是愛之深,責之切,這樣子幫你詮釋可以嗎?"},{"start":74.021,"end":97.266,"text":"謝謝委員可以吧是我們並沒有要去做任何的批評那但都是為了台灣更好那但是我要講的是說在這一次的專校院長的那個會議呢我想你有提到台灣經濟實力已非小國但本土的努力幾十年任未有諾貝爾獎所以你提到了這句話但是我們看到鄰近幾國"},{"start":98.922,"end":112.91,"text":"包括韓國其實也沒有諾貝爾獎那在這樣子一個說法當中其實引起了一個學界的嘩然那當然網友也是非常熱絡的在探討你有看留言嗎你個人會去看網路留言嗎"},{"start":113.971,"end":137.582,"text":"我沒有時間去看網路的資料我想在這樣子的一個說法當中我是覺得我們還是要探討具體的到底該怎麼辦學界發展的一些本質其實也有很多人想要去探討主委您講完這句話以後我相信主委您是學界出身的您最了解學界的一些狀況您個人覺得問題在哪裡"},{"start":140.779,"end":167.133,"text":"我其實講完那句話以後得到很多大學校長的支持我跟委員報告台灣其實是有實力現在已經有實力是可以去探討一些人類面臨的共同的一些問題然後做出對人類社會有重大貢獻的研究但是現在我們的機制其實還需要再改善我其實當初講這句話是提醒我們所有的大學校長"},{"start":168.013,"end":186.649,"text":"要來檢討我們目前的這個機制因為現在國科會還有教育部已經逐漸在放鬆對於大學的傳統那種叫管理的這個思維因為一個國家的這個科技發展包含科學的研究學術研究以及技術的開發"},{"start":187.87,"end":212.397,"text":"都是仰賴我們最高等的這個教育機構教育體制大學作為一個最高級的教育體制一定要能夠放鬆對自己的限制我們現在很多大學內部的這個內規多如牛毛都是在限制自己我們已經放鬆了一些法令規章其實大學還有很多是自我束縛沒有鬆綁的這個都是校長的責任我期待是他們要做這個事情"},{"start":212.657,"end":228.869,"text":"那我舉幾個我們面臨到的一個挑戰我們大家探討一下其實學術的評鑑制度的一個僵化以及教授為了升等被迫拼論文的一個數量那沒有辦法投入長期的一個突破性研究那我想國際學術交流的機制不足"},{"start":229.429,"end":245.223,"text":"以及台灣學者在頂尖國際研究組織中的比例偏低影響力有限再來是科技資源的分散難以集中支持有突破性的研究導致真正有潛力的學者並且無法獲得足夠的資源您覺得呢"},{"start":245.763,"end":274.611,"text":"這個我是同意的我就是為了要各大學要檢討這個事情所以期待他們趕快進行這些所以我剛剛開宗明義就講您是愛之深 責之切啦不為過啦都是為了這一個能夠未來我們在科學再拿到諾貝爾來做一個努力那做研究是長期的馬拉松我想你最應該了解那先知我們未來用才找先知謀未來用才找理由"},{"start":275.151,"end":300.509,"text":"那研究從來不是單打獨夠來做才能夠成功而是需要國家的策略政策的規劃與國際的合作跟積累所以我想政府無法提供對策跟解放的話恐怕再過20年還是一樣會在這裡談一樣的問題所以我希望我們知道問題了我們也講出問題了那現階段能不能靠主委在透過制度上來幫忙協助來幫忙改善來做一個改革您覺得有信心嗎"},{"start":301.363,"end":329.178,"text":"我有信心報告委員剛剛您講這些同學卸來反過來對我的批評其實是在批評他們自己我跟大家報告就是說沒有長期研究現在對國會來講這個完全不是理由國會支持多年期的研究已經存在蠻長的時間了但是在大學裡面設定自己設定對學生修讀辦法以論文發表的數量"},{"start":330.781,"end":348.799,"text":"對老師的獎勵也用論文發表的數量對於這個升等也是用論文發表數量等等這種自我限制的這個做法是不對的論文發表是一個傳遞研究成果知識的一個管道它不能叫做研究的成果"},{"start":349.82,"end":370.667,"text":"論文的發表只是其中一個管道你可以公開演講你可以參加討論會你可以到處去宣揚你的理念這個都是傳遞知識的管道書信往來都是但是論文發表的數量當作是一個指標是不對的我期待能夠破除這樣的迷思以對人類社會貢獻"},{"start":372.547,"end":400.826,"text":"為主的這種研究長期的研究我們本來就會都會支持是學校自己要改善自己的制度在這個部分上我覺得還是要多溝通啦但因為你已經有做一個相關的補助或者是相關的支持這我都知道但是看到制度的僵化我剛剛提到的以及論文拼數量那到底還有沒有什麼方法可以去想辦法去做這樣子的一個改革我想跟教育部當然責無旁貸我們大家一起來努力那這個部分還是有勞你我們希望能夠看到改革"},{"start":402.587,"end":419.474,"text":"您的說法是希望這裡更好那我們也願意支持所以今天來做一個探討是好不好我們一起來加油謝謝羅遠好那主委那我想另外再探討去年12月18日第12屆的全國科技會上您在記者會上宣布要組一個晶片台灣隊還記得嗎"},{"start":420.894,"end":443.276,"text":"記者那您表示台灣目前半導體的產業鏈包含IC設計晶圓製造以及封裝測試對接的對象大部分為國外市場也就是說我們半導體產業的鏈的一個製造出來的產品大多是給國外的一個客戶而非供應國內產業的一個需求政治上因與調整具體的調整方向可以和大家說一下嗎"},{"start":444.69,"end":471.009,"text":"我們過去以代工為主的這種產業模式我希望能夠也同時連結到可以支持台灣自己國內的需求而不是說我們買的這些系統的產品都從國外買回來但是供應鏈都是對接到台灣來的所以就是強化內需嘛強化內需是否意味著政府應該要透過政策的引導使台灣的半導體產品能夠更多的應用在國內的產業"},{"start":472.29,"end":494.358,"text":"如果是具體這樣子的話,那你覺得我們具體的政策該怎麼去用一個引導的方式來實施?有沒有一個臨時性的計畫或者是草案?是,我們現在在行政院也有一個機制,政府院長在領導的一些討論目前還在討論就對了我們希望從今年開始,我們各部會編列的這些預算在於這個需求端編列的預算"},{"start":495.819,"end":514.725,"text":"我們希望能夠對接到我們科技產品供應端也能夠把它串聯起來也就是說跨部會的合作以後會變得非常的重要在政策制定跟執行的時候希望能夠也直接鏈接到我們自己的產業鏈我想能夠形成一個常態性的國家戰略這是我們樂觀期程但是這個計畫的規劃期程短中長期"},{"start":518.806,"end":547.785,"text":"我覺得勢必要做出來太久遠的目標我們怕做不到那太短期的又怕短時間力那能不能短中長期能夠做出來這是我們希望能夠看到的我想台積電作為全球最大的一個晶圓代工廠其主要的客戶我們都知道來自美國日本歐洲等科技巨頭顯示台灣的半導體產業已在全球供應鏈中佔有關鍵的地位請問是否認為主委您覺得目前的出口市場不夠穩定才會推動強化內需"},{"start":550.447,"end":563.035,"text":"我們的出口市場當然基於地緣政治的影響,各種新的科技的發生,產業鏈的重組等等,不見得每一個項目都很穩定。當然我們的產業也會隨著市場的遷移,也會調整他們自己。"},{"start":569.239,"end":594.463,"text":"當然我們也希望內需的需求增加能夠讓我們的定位能夠再提升所以我說我們要建立這個晶片台灣隊就是希望我們自己的晶片產業也能夠對待我們自己內需的市場所以我希望喔 主委你有沒有進行詳細的市場研究評估未來台灣半導體可能面臨到的一個挑戰例如美國的晶片法案歐盟的半導體法案日本相關的計畫是否將影響台灣的一個外銷需求"},{"start":595.003,"end":615.85,"text":"我想還是因為台積電要去美國的關係主委也急了那如果我們面臨外銷市場仍然穩定為何政府要在這個時候要選擇強化內需您覺得呢我們現在外銷的這個市場不見得會像以前一樣穩定因為現在我們都知道"},{"start":617.233,"end":640.452,"text":"在各國即使是民主國家都會有選舉這種選舉之後的政府決策都會隨著科技的增長國外可能突飛猛進然後也有一些政治因素所以我們也應該要先看到未來所以你也覺得外國外銷市場有可能會趨健於不穩定那我們也防範於未來強化內需我這樣子評斷可以嗎"},{"start":641.533,"end":670.672,"text":"是,是,這個是其中一個很重要的因素,沒有錯。想法內需,同時我們要因應市場的這個轉變,協助我們的廠商全球布局。好,我希望能夠再多做一些評估,台灣到底能不能具備這樣子的成長潛力,能夠支持這樣子的政策轉向,我們希望你能夠多加研究。最後我想講,台灣市場規模有限,半導體的需求主要來自全球市場,而非本地消費端,我們並不像美國、中國有那樣子巨大的中端的一個消費市場。"},{"start":671.893,"end":693.186,"text":"內需市場的擴張幅度有限如果我們推動的內需市場發展卻無法創造足夠的產值跟需求是否可能會導致企業的資源錯配甚至影響台灣整個在全球供應鏈的一個角色這都是我要提到未來的一個方針這個部分我希望能夠再好好的評估我們大家一起努力短中長期的一個企劃能夠趕快出來謝謝好 謝謝韋爺"},{"start":698.794,"end":707.385,"text":"謝謝羅廷偉委員這個主委請回座那我們現在請問各位委員上次會議是有無錯誤或遺漏之處"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":79,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（9時13分）謝謝召委。有請主委。"],["主席：有請主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：羅委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：主委，在質詢之前想先跟你請問一下，你還記得之前你有辦一個活動叫「小小科學家」嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有。"],["羅委員廷瑋：覺得怎麼樣？還不錯吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：很成功。"],["羅委員廷瑋：您辦在哪邊？您之前有彙整這些相關的活動嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們辦在國科會的科技大樓。"],["羅委員廷瑋：有沒有機會來到臺中科博館？"],["吳主任委員誠文：臺中科博館，我們可以研議一下，但科博館是教育部所屬單位。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道，但是畢竟跟科學有關係，做個連結。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我們願意跟教育部合作。"],["羅委員廷瑋：可以跟教育部合作嗎？一起移師到臺中，讓我們看看「小小科學家」辦理的一些過程，帶領一些孩子走向科學家的先行教育，我想國科會是不是可以來到我們臺中？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我們樂意辦理。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，那接下來的質詢我可能要比較小心一點，在這個部分不要讓你感覺我太過激烈，不然你就不來臺中辦活動了。主委，但是時事我們還是要再討論一下，就是臺灣無諾貝爾獎這個部分，上次有看到一個新聞，主委你有說：丟臉。對不對？這個言語上是用得蠻武斷的，當然我要先講，我感受到的是愛之深、責之切，這樣子幫你詮釋可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["羅委員廷瑋：可以吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們並沒有要去做任何的批評，都是為了臺灣更好，但是我要講的是，在這一次專校院長的這個會議你有提到，臺灣經濟實力已非小國，但本土努力幾十年仍未有諾貝爾獎，所以你提到了這句話。但是我們看到鄰近幾國，包括韓國，其實也沒有諾貝爾獎，這樣子的一個說法其實引起了學界的譁然，當然網友也是非常熱絡的在探討，你有看留言嗎？你個人會去看網路留言嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我沒有時間去看網路的資料。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，對於這樣子的一個說法，我覺得我們還是要探討具體到底該怎麼辦，學界發展的一些本質其實也有很多人想要去探討，主委您講完這句話以後，主委您是學界出身的，我相信您最了解學界的一些狀況，那您個人覺得問題在哪裡？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我講完那句話以後其實得到很多大學校長的支持，我跟委員報告，臺灣現在已經有實力，是可以去探討一些人類共同面臨的問題，然後做出對人類社會有重大貢獻的研究，但是現在我們的機制還需要再改善，我當初講這句話其實是提醒我們所有的大學校長，要來檢討我們目前的這個機制，因為現在國科會還有教育部已經逐漸在放鬆對於大學傳統那種叫管理的思維，因為一個國家的科技發展，包含科學的研究、學術研究以及技術的開發，都是仰賴我們最高等的教育機構、教育體制，大學作為一個最高級的教育體制，一定要能夠放鬆對自己的限制，我們現在很多大學內部的內規多如牛毛，都是在限制自己，我們已經放鬆了一些法令規章，但大學還有很多是自我束縛，沒有鬆綁的，這個都是校長的責任，我是期待他們要做這個事情。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我舉幾個我們面臨到的挑戰，大家探討一下，其實學術評鑑制度的僵化，以及教授為了升等被迫拼論文的數量，沒有辦法投入長期突破性的研究，還有國際學術交流的機制不足，以及臺灣學者在頂尖國際研究組織中的比例偏低、影響力有限，再來是科技資源的分散，難以集中支持有突破性的研究，導致真正有潛力的學者無法獲得足夠的資源。您覺得呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個我是同意的，我就是要各大學檢討這個事情，所以期待他們趕快進行這些。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我剛剛開宗明義就講，您是愛之深、責之切，不為過，都是為了未來我們在科學上以及拿到諾貝爾獎來做一個努力。做研究是長期的馬拉松，我想你最應該了解，先知謀未來，庸才找理由，研究從來不是靠單打獨鬥就能夠成功，而是需要國家的策略、政策的規劃與國際的合作跟積累，政府無法提供對策跟解方的話，恐怕再過20年還是會在這裡談一樣的問題，所以我希望我們知道問題了、我們也講出問題了，現階段能不能靠主委透過制度來幫忙協助、來幫忙改善、來做一個改革？您覺得有信心嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我有信心，報告委員，剛剛您講的這些，從學界反過來對我的批評，其實是在批評他們自己，我跟大家報告，現在對國科會來講，「沒有長期研究」這個完全不是理由，國科會支持多年期的研究已經存在蠻長的時間了，但是在大學裡面自己設定，對學生修讀辦法，以論文發表的數量；對老師的獎勵，也用論文發表的數量；對於升等，也是用論文發表數量等等，這種自我限制的作法是不對的，論文發表是一個傳遞研究成果知識的管道，它不能叫做研究的成果，論文發表只是其中一個管道，你可以公開演講，你可以參加討論會，你可以到處去宣揚你的理念，這個都是傳遞知識的管道，書信往來都是，但是把論文發表的數量當作是一個指標，這是不對的，我期待能夠破除這樣的迷思。"],["羅委員廷瑋：再來我們剛剛看到……"],["吳主任委員誠文：以對人類社會貢獻為主的這種研究、長期的研究，我們本來就都會支持，是學校自己要改善自己的制度。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道，在這個部分上，我覺得還是要多溝通，你已經有做一個相關的補助或者是相關的支持，這個我都知道，但是看到制度的僵化，我剛剛提到的，以及論文拼數量，到底還有沒有什麼方法可以想辦法去做這樣子的改革？我想教育部當然責無旁貸，我們大家一起來努力，這個部分還是有勞你，我們希望能夠看到改革，我也感覺到您的說法是希望這裡更好，我們也願意支持，所以今天來做一個探討，好不好？我們一起來加油。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，謝謝羅委員。"],["羅委員廷瑋：主委，我想另外再探討去年12月18日第12屆的全國科技會上，您在記者會上宣布要組一個晶片臺灣隊，還記得嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：記得。"],["羅委員廷瑋：您表示臺灣目前半導體的產業鏈，包含IC設計、晶圓製造以及封裝測試，對接的對象大部分為國外市場，也就是說，我們半導體產業鏈製造出來的產品大多是給國外的客戶，而非供應國內產業的需求，政策上應予調整，具體的調整方向可以和大家說一下嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們過去以代工為主的這種產業模式，我希望能夠也同時鏈結到可以支持臺灣自己國內的需求，而不是說我們買的這些系統的產品都從國外買回來，但是供應鏈都是對接到臺灣來。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以就是強化內需嘛，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，強化內需。"],["羅委員廷瑋：強化內需是否意味著政府應該要透過政策的引導，使臺灣的半導體產品能夠更多的應用在國內的產業？如果具體這樣子的話，你覺得我們具體的政策該怎麼去用一個引導的方式來實施？有沒有一個臨時性的計畫或者是草案？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在在行政院也有一個機制，正副院長在領導的一些討論……"],["羅委員廷瑋：目前還在討論就對了？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，我們希望從今年開始，我們各部會編列了這些預算，在需求端編列了預算，我們希望能夠對接到我們科技產品供應端，也能夠把它串聯起來，也就是說，跨部會的合作以後會變得非常的重要，在政策制定跟執行的時候，希望能夠也直接鏈結到我們自己的產業鏈。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想能夠形成一個常態性的國家戰略，這是我們樂觀其成的，但是這個計畫的規劃期程短、中、長期，我覺得勢必要做出來，太久遠的目標我們怕做不到，但太短期的又怕短視近利，短、中、長期能不能夠做出來，這是我們希望能夠看到的，台積電作為全球最大的一個晶圓代工廠，其主要的客戶我們都知道，來自美國、日本、歐洲等科技巨頭，顯示臺灣的半導體產業已在全球供應鏈中占有關鍵的地位。請問主委是否認為目前的出口市場不夠穩定，才會推動強化內需？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們的出口市場基於地緣政治的影響，各種新科技的發生、產業鏈的重組等等，不見得每一個項目都很穩定，當然我們的產業也會隨著市場的遷移，也會調整他們自己。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然我們也希望內部的需求增加，能夠讓我們的定位再提升。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，所以我說我們要建立晶片臺灣隊，就是希望我們自己的晶片產業也能夠對到我們自己內需的市場。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以主委有沒有進行詳細的市場研究，評估未來臺灣半導體可能面臨到的一個挑戰？例如美國的晶片法案、歐盟的半導體法案、日本相關的計畫，是否將影響臺灣的外銷需求，我想還是因為台積電要去美國的關係，主委也急了，如果外銷市場仍然穩定，為何政府要在這個時候選擇強化內需？您覺得呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：現在的外銷市場不見得會像以前一樣穩定，因為我們都知道，各國即使是民主國家也都會有選舉，選舉之後的政府決策都會變動……"],["羅委員廷瑋：隨著科技的增長，國外可能突飛猛進，然後也有一些政治因素，所以我們也應該要先看到未來，所以你也覺得外國、外銷市場有可能會漸趨於不穩定，我們也防範於未來，強化內需，我這樣子評斷可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，這個是其中一個很重要的因素沒有錯，強化內需，同時我們要因應市場的轉變，協助我們的廠商全球布局。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我希望能夠再多做一些評估啦，臺灣到底能不能具備這樣子的成長潛力，能夠支持這樣子的政策轉向，我們希望你能夠多加研究。","最後我想講臺灣市場規模有限，半導體的需求主要來自全球市場，而非本地消費端，我們並不像美國、中國有那樣子巨大的、終端的一個消費市場，內需市場的擴張幅度有限。如果我們推動內需市場發展，卻無法創造足夠的產值跟需求，是否可能會導致企業的資源錯配，甚至影響臺灣在整個全球供應鏈的角色？這都是我要提到未來的方針，這個部分我希望能夠再好好的評估，我們大家一起努力，短、中、長期的一個計畫能夠趕快出來，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員，主委請回座。","請問各位委員，上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處？（無）好，沒有的話，我們議事錄就確定。","我們接著繼續進行質詢，請柯志恩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","林沛祥","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","葉元之","郭昱晴","范雲","陳培瑜","萬美玲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","林倩綺"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00002"}}}