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00:01:34,083\n三千億這點沒有錯吧這個是在\n\n6\n00:01:38,543 --> 00:01:43,307\n上一届的當然不是你認的三千億我們來看看這個三千億當中怎麼樣來花這個主委我第一個要先特別問到的話這個是113到112然後呢八隻指計畫當中呢只有一支計畫是今年今年1月1號才開始執行其他的七個部分呢都是在去年1月1號就開始執行沒有錯吧這個時間軸沒有錯是\n\n7\n00:02:06,064 --> 00:02:31,835\n好那重点就是了你们去年1月1号开始执行你们却在去年的5月成立了一个精创台湾推动的办公室你告诉我是要策略规划计划管考指引方向这很奇怪啊你1月1号就已经开始先行了你5月才给我成立这个办公室到底是为什么都已经先成立了其实都已经先成立了为什么5月还成立这个办公室\n\n8\n00:02:33,168 --> 00:02:53,975\n而且这个办公室到底花了多少钱这个办公室你找的十位学者当然有一些是跟绿营关系非常好的我就不再一一追究但是呢这个部分里面呢一年当中呢我问了老半天到底这十位学者专家到底是做了哪些事情薪水到底多少这个我问不到哎哎\n\n9\n00:02:54,975 --> 00:02:59,158\n主委我問不到欸你告訴我說這個部分裡面呢我要交代到底要做些哪些的事情你們裡面的具體的細項到底是什麼我問不到你們給我回應了一個完全是根據外聘人員然後根據專題研究經費的方法來處理還有根據軍公教人員兼職的知己要領我做的國科會拿了\n\n10\n00:03:18,272 --> 00:03:37,164\n四年的計劃補助我當然知道這個錢多少你卻是在這個過程當中研究人力的費用竟然花了八千萬我問不到這裡面的細項八千萬一年的經費是八千萬更何況你是五月在已經先成立完之後五月才成立這個辦公室請問可不可以交代一下這個辦公室到底在做什麼\n\n11\n00:03:38,260 --> 00:03:56,780\n一年經費八千萬難道你告訴我十個人一個人領八百萬嗎應該不是吧報告委員我們很多重大的政策項目都有成立推動辦公室不是只有金創辦公室我現在只問說你一月就已經七支計畫先行你五月才成立這個辦公室所以你讓我們大家覺得是你是先設計再畫吧\n\n12\n00:03:58,390 --> 00:04:14,021\n就我所知去年1月才開始精算計畫的推動那開始以後才確定立法院審查完這個預算以後才確定有這一筆預算他們才去組專家團成立這個推動辦公室\n\n13\n00:04:15,642 --> 00:04:42,723\n主委你如果是这样的话你要请你们的法务专家来看一下你七只子计划一月就已经开始先行了五月再成立这个办公室这个逻辑上面的措置是有一些的问题的我现在只要求在这个时间点我要看到你的研究经费的八千万当中一年成立八千万当中里面有多少人到底每个月你的薪资是多少助理费到底是多少里面的细项可不可以交给本席一份\n\n14\n00:04:43,564 --> 00:04:57,158\n我在一般來說我要不到,我只能跟你在這個執行上要到因為這牽涉到很多的是跟...有些什麼機密嗎?又是秘密文件嗎?有些商業機密,有些商業機密我只是要人到底領多少錢,這也是商業機密他們做的事情是要密切跟執行計畫的單位不是各部會,是執行計畫的單位他們要互動的,這個包含產業的推動的項目\n\n15\n00:05:07,708 --> 00:05:27,568\n好你信箱可以不用給但是每一個人領多少錢這應該可以給嘛你告訴我是依照一般的轉我要不到所以給我一份這些人到底領多少錢好不好你們現在每次什麼每次都要跟一些產業機密我們大概立法院就可以閉嘴了否則每次都說你在牽扯這機密這個真的實在是我沒有辦法接受牽涉到我們很重要的半導體的廠商啦\n\n16\n00:05:28,689 --> 00:05:43,292\n好我廠商我不要我也不care你們跟他之間到底有什麼樣的deal我只告訴你我們國家付錢這些人到底每一個月領多少錢這個是符合規定給我所以沒有什麼道理我要不到的你們給我這一份真的是讓我現在非常的生氣好不好\n\n17\n00:05:44,212 --> 00:06:04,324\n主委然后接下来呢我们还是要回应到你刚刚所说一个比较重要的问题就是有关诺贝尔问题当然你那一句话叫说没有出不了这个诺贝尔得主叫做丢脸观这句话讲的够重但是过重的过程当中也引起非常多的一个讨论啊你认为用诺贝尔的这个量化的指标来当做科研的成就这句话成不成立\n\n18\n00:06:05,578 --> 00:06:23,033\n我這個不叫量化啦我是說因為諾貝爾獎評審的條件是要對人類社會有正面的重大貢獻嘛所以我的意思就是說我們的這個研究也不見得所有領域都是有諾貝爾獎啦還有很多其他領域是啦但是好啦主委我就要跟你討論嘛以這個精神就是要對我們的社會\n\n19\n00:06:24,935 --> 00:06:41,367\n我們的文化文明的提升等等要有我同意啊我今天坐在台下裡面講啊我在大學教書二十幾年我也認為每次都是用那個所謂的這個paper的一個產量來當作是升等或是任何的一個指標我也覺得這個東西是不盡公平因為畢竟來說如果說你要當paper當指標我告訴你現在目前太多學者為了拿到獎勵特別是國科會的獎勵有很多很多的paper你們國科會要的連續型計畫大家會給你連續型你們要跨領域就可以跨領域你們要綜合就可以跨\n\n20\n00:06:53,195 --> 00:07:21,198\n很多人为了要符合这个标准然后就开始不是好好的去专研深化他的研究完全是配合这个浅层的这个指标我们都同意这一点嘛所以我赞成你刚刚的说法但是我还是要回应过来因为诺贝尔的关系你要看看我们过去28年开始我们其实已经花了多少钱大概投资了超过3000亿以上来对我们这个研究包括我们每个人都经历过的卓越计划顶尖计划深耕计划\n\n21\n00:07:21,638 --> 00:07:25,142\n投入非常多的钱但是呢很显然为了南北平衡还有为了非常多的这样子的一个很多齐头市所以齐头市的分配我觉得这个才是造成我们现在没有办法好好地深化的所以呢台大的陈文章\n\n22\n00:07:37,657 --> 00:08:05,476\n这个校长忍不住说了你若要产生一个诺贝尔我们说实在你要让世界知道嘛你美国国家科学院的这个院士美国国家工程学院的院士或者欧加的院士你可能要有一些的作为到时候诺贝尔投票的时候才会有这样的一个基础嘛但是我们却没有办法往这边来走更不要说我们接下来去看了我们在过去十年来说的话要产生不管是诺贝尔或是更有贡献的我们的基础研究\n\n23\n00:08:06,403 --> 00:08:10,177\n主管你同意吧基础研究应该是要投入更多的心力嘛\n\n24\n00:08:11,038 --> 00:08:31,448\n我们科技预算的编列在基础研究是逐年在增加逐年在增加但是跟过去的比重来去看还是没有算是逐年增加我给你看一下比重你说像目前为止五年成长45%你希望能够让大学无后顾之忧但是我们来看一下科研的比率来说基础研究2023年大概是占26但是你跟2014年过去10年比起来过去的科研的比率还是占31%\n\n25\n00:08:39,232 --> 00:08:43,994\n你現在只在26其實是逐年下降了這邊都有數據來告訴你然後呢你真的是投資比較多的是屬於技術的發展大概在45.5所以我們的基礎研究跟我們的技術發展來說比重幾乎是已經完全是下降到很低了更不要說呢我們如果看到整個的研究方法來我們往下去看你像2014是9.5到目前為止大概是只有只有你看2022比CPS8\n\n26\n00:09:07,546 --> 00:09:22,435\n你跟去年比起來大致成長0.4%報告委員我們的原因是因為應用研究的人口增加比重蠻高的但是基礎研究的人力它的數量為此大概變化不大\n\n27\n00:09:23,055 --> 00:09:42,515\n所以他們每個人的人均研究的經驗都一直快速在提升但是我還是提醒主委你所認為的基礎研究沒有你想像中那麼多相對而言我只是說我們要對於基礎研究這整張重點就告訴你基礎研究的重要性過去我們長期被技術上面來說的話我們這個部分裡面\n\n28\n00:09:47,039 --> 00:10:08,039\n的确在这个经费的比重上因为这个部分里面任何的科研人才还是直居于基础研究这是非常重要的当然是我们科学人才里面我们是高度的流失再给你看一个数据我们往下来去看我们用这个2024IMD的这个所谓的竞争力来去看整体来看我们是稍微是退步的\n\n29\n00:10:08,399 --> 00:10:22,795\n然後再來看氣象來說你看我們各個的這個特別是在有關於環境吸引國外高階人才來說我們真的是退步蠻多特別是科技人才的充足度不好意思我們足足退步的10名左右\n\n30\n00:10:23,336 --> 00:10:41,389\n我们真的是这个部分在于有关要留住人才不管是在本国人才还是吸引外国的人才到我们台湾来其实我们在这一块逐年都是在衰退当中这是我们的警讯这是我们警讯当然是来自于不管是我们的薪资还有包括我们所有大概不可否认嘛助理教授\n\n31\n00:10:41,989 --> 00:11:04,926\n很勉强都要到100万年薪100万都有点辛苦那随便一个半导体造一个非常年轻的研究所毕业的工程师大概就可以马上开出200多万所以你很难吸引很多的我们这样的一个人愿意留在我们基础的地方来去做这是我们很大的一个隐忧嘛因为用户的条件利用条件还有所谓的team基本上面目前为止是面临一个非常大的困难点啊\n\n32\n00:11:06,219 --> 00:11:26,672\n國會在我們主政的範圍我們會盡量就是說我們在學者的研究計畫的經費的額度主持費我們都提升了但是委員提到的在我們整個教育體系的薪資的問題我們當然希望教育部我們也一起來努力在我們整個政府的這個機制\n\n33\n00:11:31,635 --> 00:11:55,606\n我覺得國科會在這一點的話勢必有些時候要跟教育部好好來溝通討論教育部所放的一個重點其實在在真的是牽連到我們未來人才的一個培養高教人才逐漸的一個流失這些逐漸的流失裡面其實就是我們人才庫未來是不是可以更豐厚然後這些人才庫是否留得住當這個環境學術環境如果不夠精彩的話其實外國的學者也很不願意\n\n34\n00:11:55,606 --> 00:11:55,706\n我們會努力\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n188\t7557\t柯之恩委員質詢謝謝莊委 我們是不是請主委有請主委備質詢 謝謝\n14735\t31971\t各位好 你應該不只一次說台積電會跟流台灣而且事實上只有台灣的政府才會真心照顧我們這個保護我們台灣的廠商這一點我完全同意 因為這是大家共同的一個期望但是我們現在必須要知道的就是台積電移過去之後呢大家就會開始發現說其實全球的產業鏈其實正是經歷一所前所未有的大遷徙\n39178\t43220\t台積電過去了 我們後端的封測廠應該也都會過去吧這點應該是毋庸置疑的吧不對 柯委員 我跟你講 台積電並沒有移過去台積電會擴充它的實力我說它會有一大堆移過去一些的部分然後封測廠是不是接連也要過去 是不是\n64770\t91339\t风土产当然也要扩充他们的实力所以说这就是为什么大家会认为整个的供应链里面会面临一场大的迁徙我们先把这个前提先确定一下然后接下来就是我真的是要跟国客会有关的就是因为因应这样子你特别提到了我们要结合AI提早布局台湾未来的科技产业没有错所以你们就提出了一个精创台湾方案\n92800\t94083\t三千億 這點沒有錯吧這個是在\n98543\t103307\t上一届的當然不是你認的三千億我們來看看這個三千億當中怎麼樣來花這個主委我第一個要先特別問到的話這個是113到112然後呢八隻指計畫當中呢只有一支計畫是今年今年1月1號才開始執行其他的七個部分呢都是在去年1月1號就開始執行沒有錯吧這個時間軸沒有錯是\n126064\t151835\t好 那重点就是了 你们去年1月1号开始执行你们却在去年的5月成立了一个精创台湾推动的办公室你告诉我是要策略规划 计划管考 指引方向这很奇怪啊 你1月1号就已经开始先行了你5月才给我成立这个办公室 到底是为什么都已经先成立了 其实都已经先成立了为什么5月还成立这个办公室\n153168\t173975\t而且这个办公室到底花了多少钱这个办公室你找的十位学者当然有一些是跟绿营关系非常好的我就不再一一追究但是呢这个部分里面呢一年当中呢我问了老半天到底这十位学者专家到底是做了哪些事情薪水到底多少这个我问不到哎哎\n174975\t179158\t主委我問不到欸你告訴我說這個部分裡面呢我要交代到底要做些哪些的事情你們裡面的具體的細項到底是什麼我問不到你們給我回應了一個完全是根據外聘人員然後根據專題研究經費的方法來處理還有根據軍公教人員兼職的知己要領我做的國科會拿了\n198272\t217164\t四年的計劃補助我當然知道這個錢多少你卻是在這個過程當中研究人力的費用竟然花了八千萬我問不到這裡面的細項八千萬一年的經費是八千萬更何況你是五月在已經先成立完之後五月才成立這個辦公室請問可不可以交代一下這個辦公室到底在做什麼\n218260\t236780\t一年經費八千萬難道你告訴我十個人一個人領八百萬嗎應該不是吧報告委員我們很多重大的政策項目都有成立推動辦公室不是只有金創辦公室我現在只問說你一月就已經七支計畫先行你五月才成立這個辦公室所以你讓我們大家覺得是你是先設計再畫吧\n238390\t254021\t就我所知 去年1月才開始精算計畫的推動那開始以後才確定立法院審查完這個預算以後才確定有這一筆預算 他們才去組專家團成立這個推動辦公室\n255642\t282723\t主委你如果是这样的话你要请你们的法务专家来看一下你七只子计划一月就已经开始先行了五月再成立这个办公室这个逻辑上面的措置是有一些的问题的我现在只要求在这个时间点我要看到你的研究经费的八千万当中一年成立八千万当中里面有多少人到底每个月你的薪资是多少助理费到底是多少里面的细项可不可以交给本席一份\n283564\t297158\t我在一般來說我要不到,我只能跟你在這個執行上要到因為這牽涉到很多的是跟...有些什麼機密嗎?又是秘密文件嗎?有些商業機密,有些商業機密我只是要人到底領多少錢,這也是商業機密他們做的事情是要密切跟執行計畫的單位不是各部會,是執行計畫的單位他們要互動的,這個包含產業的推動的項目\n307708\t327568\t好 你信箱可以不用給 但是每一個人領多少錢 這應該可以給嘛你告訴我是依照一般的轉 我要不到 所以給我一份這些人到底領多少錢 好不好你們現在每次什麼 每次都要跟一些產業機密我們大概立法院就可以閉嘴了否則每次都說你在牽扯這機密 這個真的實在是我沒有辦法接受牽涉到我們很重要的半導體的廠商啦\n328689\t343292\t好 我廠商我不要我也不care你們跟他之間到底有什麼樣的deal我只告訴你我們國家付錢這些人到底每一個月領多少錢這個是符合規定給我所以沒有什麼道理我要不到的你們給我這一份真的是讓我現在非常的生氣 好不好\n344212\t364324\t主委然后接下来呢我们还是要回应到你刚刚所说一个比较重要的问题就是有关诺贝尔问题当然你那一句话叫说没有出不了这个诺贝尔得主叫做丢脸观这句话讲的够重但是过重的过程当中也引起非常多的一个讨论啊你认为用诺贝尔的这个量化的指标来当做科研的成就这句话成不成立\n365578\t383033\t我這個不叫量化啦我是說因為諾貝爾獎評審的條件是要對人類社會有正面的重大貢獻嘛所以我的意思就是說我們的這個研究也不見得所有領域都是有諾貝爾獎啦還有很多其他領域是啦但是好啦主委我就要跟你討論嘛以這個精神就是要對我們的社會\n384935\t401367\t我們的文化 文明的提升等等要有我同意啊 我今天坐在台下裡面講啊我在大學教書二十幾年我也認為每次都是用那個所謂的這個paper的一個產量來當作是升等或是任何的一個指標我也覺得這個東西是不盡公平因為畢竟來說如果說你要當paper當指標我告訴你現在目前太多學者為了拿到獎勵 特別是國科會的獎勵有很多很多的paper你們國科會要的連續型計畫 大家會給你連續型你們要跨領域就可以跨領域你們要綜合就可以跨\n413195\t441198\t很多人为了要符合这个标准然后就开始不是好好的去专研深化他的研究完全是配合这个浅层的这个指标我们都同意这一点嘛所以我赞成你刚刚的说法但是我还是要回应过来因为诺贝尔的关系你要看看我们过去28年开始我们其实已经花了多少钱大概投资了超过3000亿以上来对我们这个研究包括我们每个人都经历过的卓越计划 顶尖计划 深耕计划\n441638\t445142\t投入非常多的钱但是呢很显然为了南北平衡还有为了非常多的这样子的一个很多齐头市所以齐头市的分配我觉得这个才是造成我们现在没有办法好好地深化的所以呢台大的陈文章\n457657\t485476\t这个校长忍不住说了你若要产生一个诺贝尔我们说实在你要让世界知道嘛你美国国家科学院的这个院士美国国家工程学院的院士或者欧加的院士你可能要有一些的作为到时候诺贝尔投票的时候才会有这样的一个基础嘛但是我们却没有办法往这边来走更不要说我们接下来去看了我们在过去十年来说的话要产生不管是诺贝尔或是更有贡献的我们的基础研究\n486403\t490177\t主管你同意吧基础研究应该是要投入更多的心力嘛\n491038\t511448\t我们科技预算的编列在基础研究是逐年在增加逐年在增加但是跟过去的比重来去看还是没有算是逐年增加我给你看一下比重你说像目前为止五年成长45%你希望能够让大学无后顾之忧但是我们来看一下科研的比率来说基础研究2023年大概是占26但是你跟2014年过去10年比起来过去的科研的比率还是占31%\n519232\t523994\t你現在只在26其實是逐年下降了這邊都有數據來告訴你然後呢你真的是投資比較多的是屬於技術的發展大概在45.5所以我們的基礎研究跟我們的技術發展來說比重幾乎是已經完全是下降到很低了更不要說呢我們如果看到整個的研究方法來我們往下去看你像2014是9.5到目前為止大概是只有只有你看2022比CPS8\n547546\t562435\t你跟去年比起來大致成長0.4%報告委員我們的原因是因為應用研究的人口增加比重蠻高的但是基礎研究的人力它的數量為此大概變化不大\n563055\t582515\t所以他們每個人的人均研究的經驗都一直快速在提升但是我還是提醒主委你所認為的基礎研究沒有你想像中那麼多相對而言我只是說我們要對於基礎研究這整張重點就告訴你基礎研究的重要性過去我們長期被技術上面來說的話我們這個部分裡面\n587039\t608039\t的确在这个经费的比重上因为这个部分里面任何的科研人才还是直居于基础研究这是非常重要的当然是我们科学人才里面我们是高度的流失再给你看一个数据我们往下来去看我们用这个2024 IMD的这个所谓的竞争力来去看整体来看我们是稍微是退步的\n608399\t622795\t然後再來看氣象來說你看我們各個的這個特別是在有關於環境吸引國外高階人才來說我們真的是退步蠻多特別是科技人才的充足度不好意思我們足足退步的10名左右\n623336\t641389\t我们真的是这个部分在于有关要留住人才不管是在本国人才还是吸引外国的人才到我们台湾来其实我们在这一块逐年都是在衰退当中这是我们的警讯这是我们警讯当然是来自于不管是我们的薪资还有包括我们所有大概不可否认嘛助理教授\n641989\t664926\t很勉强都要到100万年薪100万都有点辛苦那随便一个半导体造一个非常年轻的研究所毕业的工程师大概就可以马上开出200多万所以你很难吸引很多的我们这样的一个人愿意留在我们基础的地方来去做这是我们很大的一个隐忧嘛因为用户的条件利用条件还有所谓的team基本上面目前为止是面临一个非常大的困难点啊\n666219\t686672\t國會在我們主政的範圍我們會盡量就是說我們在學者的研究計畫的經費的額度主持費我們都提升了但是委員提到的在我們整個教育體系的薪資的問題我們當然希望教育部我們也一起來努力在我們整個政府的這個機制\n691635\t715606\t我覺得國科會在這一點的話勢必有些時候要跟教育部好好來溝通討論教育部所放的一個重點其實在在真的是牽連到我們未來人才的一個培養高教人才逐漸的一個流失這些逐漸的流失裡面其實就是我們人才庫未來是不是可以更豐厚然後這些人才庫是否留得住當這個環境學術環境如果不夠精彩的話其實外國的學者也很不願意\n715606\t715706\t我們會努力\n","txt":"柯之恩委員質詢謝謝莊委 我們是不是請主委有請主委備質詢 謝謝\n各位好 你應該不只一次說台積電會跟流台灣而且事實上只有台灣的政府才會真心照顧我們這個保護我們台灣的廠商這一點我完全同意 因為這是大家共同的一個期望但是我們現在必須要知道的就是台積電移過去之後呢大家就會開始發現說其實全球的產業鏈其實正是經歷一所前所未有的大遷徙\n台積電過去了 我們後端的封測廠應該也都會過去吧這點應該是毋庸置疑的吧不對 柯委員 我跟你講 台積電並沒有移過去台積電會擴充它的實力我說它會有一大堆移過去一些的部分然後封測廠是不是接連也要過去 是不是\n风土产当然也要扩充他们的实力所以说这就是为什么大家会认为整个的供应链里面会面临一场大的迁徙我们先把这个前提先确定一下然后接下来就是我真的是要跟国客会有关的就是因为因应这样子你特别提到了我们要结合AI提早布局台湾未来的科技产业没有错所以你们就提出了一个精创台湾方案\n三千億 這點沒有錯吧這個是在\n上一届的當然不是你認的三千億我們來看看這個三千億當中怎麼樣來花這個主委我第一個要先特別問到的話這個是113到112然後呢八隻指計畫當中呢只有一支計畫是今年今年1月1號才開始執行其他的七個部分呢都是在去年1月1號就開始執行沒有錯吧這個時間軸沒有錯是\n好 那重点就是了 你们去年1月1号开始执行你们却在去年的5月成立了一个精创台湾推动的办公室你告诉我是要策略规划 计划管考 指引方向这很奇怪啊 你1月1号就已经开始先行了你5月才给我成立这个办公室 到底是为什么都已经先成立了 其实都已经先成立了为什么5月还成立这个办公室\n而且这个办公室到底花了多少钱这个办公室你找的十位学者当然有一些是跟绿营关系非常好的我就不再一一追究但是呢这个部分里面呢一年当中呢我问了老半天到底这十位学者专家到底是做了哪些事情薪水到底多少这个我问不到哎哎\n主委我問不到欸你告訴我說這個部分裡面呢我要交代到底要做些哪些的事情你們裡面的具體的細項到底是什麼我問不到你們給我回應了一個完全是根據外聘人員然後根據專題研究經費的方法來處理還有根據軍公教人員兼職的知己要領我做的國科會拿了\n四年的計劃補助我當然知道這個錢多少你卻是在這個過程當中研究人力的費用竟然花了八千萬我問不到這裡面的細項八千萬一年的經費是八千萬更何況你是五月在已經先成立完之後五月才成立這個辦公室請問可不可以交代一下這個辦公室到底在做什麼\n一年經費八千萬難道你告訴我十個人一個人領八百萬嗎應該不是吧報告委員我們很多重大的政策項目都有成立推動辦公室不是只有金創辦公室我現在只問說你一月就已經七支計畫先行你五月才成立這個辦公室所以你讓我們大家覺得是你是先設計再畫吧\n就我所知 去年1月才開始精算計畫的推動那開始以後才確定立法院審查完這個預算以後才確定有這一筆預算 他們才去組專家團成立這個推動辦公室\n主委你如果是这样的话你要请你们的法务专家来看一下你七只子计划一月就已经开始先行了五月再成立这个办公室这个逻辑上面的措置是有一些的问题的我现在只要求在这个时间点我要看到你的研究经费的八千万当中一年成立八千万当中里面有多少人到底每个月你的薪资是多少助理费到底是多少里面的细项可不可以交给本席一份\n我在一般來說我要不到,我只能跟你在這個執行上要到因為這牽涉到很多的是跟...有些什麼機密嗎?又是秘密文件嗎?有些商業機密,有些商業機密我只是要人到底領多少錢,這也是商業機密他們做的事情是要密切跟執行計畫的單位不是各部會,是執行計畫的單位他們要互動的,這個包含產業的推動的項目\n好 你信箱可以不用給 但是每一個人領多少錢 這應該可以給嘛你告訴我是依照一般的轉 我要不到 所以給我一份這些人到底領多少錢 好不好你們現在每次什麼 每次都要跟一些產業機密我們大概立法院就可以閉嘴了否則每次都說你在牽扯這機密 這個真的實在是我沒有辦法接受牽涉到我們很重要的半導體的廠商啦\n好 我廠商我不要我也不care你們跟他之間到底有什麼樣的deal我只告訴你我們國家付錢這些人到底每一個月領多少錢這個是符合規定給我所以沒有什麼道理我要不到的你們給我這一份真的是讓我現在非常的生氣 好不好\n主委然后接下来呢我们还是要回应到你刚刚所说一个比较重要的问题就是有关诺贝尔问题当然你那一句话叫说没有出不了这个诺贝尔得主叫做丢脸观这句话讲的够重但是过重的过程当中也引起非常多的一个讨论啊你认为用诺贝尔的这个量化的指标来当做科研的成就这句话成不成立\n我這個不叫量化啦我是說因為諾貝爾獎評審的條件是要對人類社會有正面的重大貢獻嘛所以我的意思就是說我們的這個研究也不見得所有領域都是有諾貝爾獎啦還有很多其他領域是啦但是好啦主委我就要跟你討論嘛以這個精神就是要對我們的社會\n我們的文化 文明的提升等等要有我同意啊 我今天坐在台下裡面講啊我在大學教書二十幾年我也認為每次都是用那個所謂的這個paper的一個產量來當作是升等或是任何的一個指標我也覺得這個東西是不盡公平因為畢竟來說如果說你要當paper當指標我告訴你現在目前太多學者為了拿到獎勵 特別是國科會的獎勵有很多很多的paper你們國科會要的連續型計畫 大家會給你連續型你們要跨領域就可以跨領域你們要綜合就可以跨\n很多人为了要符合这个标准然后就开始不是好好的去专研深化他的研究完全是配合这个浅层的这个指标我们都同意这一点嘛所以我赞成你刚刚的说法但是我还是要回应过来因为诺贝尔的关系你要看看我们过去28年开始我们其实已经花了多少钱大概投资了超过3000亿以上来对我们这个研究包括我们每个人都经历过的卓越计划 顶尖计划 深耕计划\n投入非常多的钱但是呢很显然为了南北平衡还有为了非常多的这样子的一个很多齐头市所以齐头市的分配我觉得这个才是造成我们现在没有办法好好地深化的所以呢台大的陈文章\n这个校长忍不住说了你若要产生一个诺贝尔我们说实在你要让世界知道嘛你美国国家科学院的这个院士美国国家工程学院的院士或者欧加的院士你可能要有一些的作为到时候诺贝尔投票的时候才会有这样的一个基础嘛但是我们却没有办法往这边来走更不要说我们接下来去看了我们在过去十年来说的话要产生不管是诺贝尔或是更有贡献的我们的基础研究\n主管你同意吧基础研究应该是要投入更多的心力嘛\n我们科技预算的编列在基础研究是逐年在增加逐年在增加但是跟过去的比重来去看还是没有算是逐年增加我给你看一下比重你说像目前为止五年成长45%你希望能够让大学无后顾之忧但是我们来看一下科研的比率来说基础研究2023年大概是占26但是你跟2014年过去10年比起来过去的科研的比率还是占31%\n你現在只在26其實是逐年下降了這邊都有數據來告訴你然後呢你真的是投資比較多的是屬於技術的發展大概在45.5所以我們的基礎研究跟我們的技術發展來說比重幾乎是已經完全是下降到很低了更不要說呢我們如果看到整個的研究方法來我們往下去看你像2014是9.5到目前為止大概是只有只有你看2022比CPS8\n你跟去年比起來大致成長0.4%報告委員我們的原因是因為應用研究的人口增加比重蠻高的但是基礎研究的人力它的數量為此大概變化不大\n所以他們每個人的人均研究的經驗都一直快速在提升但是我還是提醒主委你所認為的基礎研究沒有你想像中那麼多相對而言我只是說我們要對於基礎研究這整張重點就告訴你基礎研究的重要性過去我們長期被技術上面來說的話我們這個部分裡面\n的确在这个经费的比重上因为这个部分里面任何的科研人才还是直居于基础研究这是非常重要的当然是我们科学人才里面我们是高度的流失再给你看一个数据我们往下来去看我们用这个2024 IMD的这个所谓的竞争力来去看整体来看我们是稍微是退步的\n然後再來看氣象來說你看我們各個的這個特別是在有關於環境吸引國外高階人才來說我們真的是退步蠻多特別是科技人才的充足度不好意思我們足足退步的10名左右\n我们真的是这个部分在于有关要留住人才不管是在本国人才还是吸引外国的人才到我们台湾来其实我们在这一块逐年都是在衰退当中这是我们的警讯这是我们警讯当然是来自于不管是我们的薪资还有包括我们所有大概不可否认嘛助理教授\n很勉强都要到100万年薪100万都有点辛苦那随便一个半导体造一个非常年轻的研究所毕业的工程师大概就可以马上开出200多万所以你很难吸引很多的我们这样的一个人愿意留在我们基础的地方来去做这是我们很大的一个隐忧嘛因为用户的条件利用条件还有所谓的team基本上面目前为止是面临一个非常大的困难点啊\n國會在我們主政的範圍我們會盡量就是說我們在學者的研究計畫的經費的額度主持費我們都提升了但是委員提到的在我們整個教育體系的薪資的問題我們當然希望教育部我們也一起來努力在我們整個政府的這個機制\n我覺得國科會在這一點的話勢必有些時候要跟教育部好好來溝通討論教育部所放的一個重點其實在在真的是牽連到我們未來人才的一個培養高教人才逐漸的一個流失這些逐漸的流失裡面其實就是我們人才庫未來是不是可以更豐厚然後這些人才庫是否留得住當這個環境學術環境如果不夠精彩的話其實外國的學者也很不願意\n我們會努力\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.188 --> 00:07.557\n柯之恩委員質詢謝謝莊委我們是不是請主委有請主委備質詢謝謝\n\n00:14.735 --> 00:31.971\n各位好你應該不只一次說台積電會跟流台灣而且事實上只有台灣的政府才會真心照顧我們這個保護我們台灣的廠商這一點我完全同意因為這是大家共同的一個期望但是我們現在必須要知道的就是台積電移過去之後呢大家就會開始發現說其實全球的產業鏈其實正是經歷一所前所未有的大遷徙\n\n00:39.178 --> 00:43.220\n台積電過去了我們後端的封測廠應該也都會過去吧這點應該是毋庸置疑的吧不對柯委員我跟你講台積電並沒有移過去台積電會擴充它的實力我說它會有一大堆移過去一些的部分然後封測廠是不是接連也要過去是不是\n\n01:04.770 --> 01:31.339\n风土产当然也要扩充他们的实力所以说这就是为什么大家会认为整个的供应链里面会面临一场大的迁徙我们先把这个前提先确定一下然后接下来就是我真的是要跟国客会有关的就是因为因应这样子你特别提到了我们要结合AI提早布局台湾未来的科技产业没有错所以你们就提出了一个精创台湾方案\n\n01:32.800 --> 01:34.083\n三千億這點沒有錯吧這個是在\n\n01:38.543 --> 01:43.307\n上一届的當然不是你認的三千億我們來看看這個三千億當中怎麼樣來花這個主委我第一個要先特別問到的話這個是113到112然後呢八隻指計畫當中呢只有一支計畫是今年今年1月1號才開始執行其他的七個部分呢都是在去年1月1號就開始執行沒有錯吧這個時間軸沒有錯是\n\n02:06.064 --> 02:31.835\n好那重点就是了你们去年1月1号开始执行你们却在去年的5月成立了一个精创台湾推动的办公室你告诉我是要策略规划计划管考指引方向这很奇怪啊你1月1号就已经开始先行了你5月才给我成立这个办公室到底是为什么都已经先成立了其实都已经先成立了为什么5月还成立这个办公室\n\n02:33.168 --> 02:53.975\n而且这个办公室到底花了多少钱这个办公室你找的十位学者当然有一些是跟绿营关系非常好的我就不再一一追究但是呢这个部分里面呢一年当中呢我问了老半天到底这十位学者专家到底是做了哪些事情薪水到底多少这个我问不到哎哎\n\n02:54.975 --> 02:59.158\n主委我問不到欸你告訴我說這個部分裡面呢我要交代到底要做些哪些的事情你們裡面的具體的細項到底是什麼我問不到你們給我回應了一個完全是根據外聘人員然後根據專題研究經費的方法來處理還有根據軍公教人員兼職的知己要領我做的國科會拿了\n\n03:18.272 --> 03:37.164\n四年的計劃補助我當然知道這個錢多少你卻是在這個過程當中研究人力的費用竟然花了八千萬我問不到這裡面的細項八千萬一年的經費是八千萬更何況你是五月在已經先成立完之後五月才成立這個辦公室請問可不可以交代一下這個辦公室到底在做什麼\n\n03:38.260 --> 03:56.780\n一年經費八千萬難道你告訴我十個人一個人領八百萬嗎應該不是吧報告委員我們很多重大的政策項目都有成立推動辦公室不是只有金創辦公室我現在只問說你一月就已經七支計畫先行你五月才成立這個辦公室所以你讓我們大家覺得是你是先設計再畫吧\n\n03:58.390 --> 04:14.021\n就我所知去年1月才開始精算計畫的推動那開始以後才確定立法院審查完這個預算以後才確定有這一筆預算他們才去組專家團成立這個推動辦公室\n\n04:15.642 --> 04:42.723\n主委你如果是这样的话你要请你们的法务专家来看一下你七只子计划一月就已经开始先行了五月再成立这个办公室这个逻辑上面的措置是有一些的问题的我现在只要求在这个时间点我要看到你的研究经费的八千万当中一年成立八千万当中里面有多少人到底每个月你的薪资是多少助理费到底是多少里面的细项可不可以交给本席一份\n\n04:43.564 --> 04:57.158\n我在一般來說我要不到,我只能跟你在這個執行上要到因為這牽涉到很多的是跟...有些什麼機密嗎?又是秘密文件嗎?有些商業機密,有些商業機密我只是要人到底領多少錢,這也是商業機密他們做的事情是要密切跟執行計畫的單位不是各部會,是執行計畫的單位他們要互動的,這個包含產業的推動的項目\n\n05:07.708 --> 05:27.568\n好你信箱可以不用給但是每一個人領多少錢這應該可以給嘛你告訴我是依照一般的轉我要不到所以給我一份這些人到底領多少錢好不好你們現在每次什麼每次都要跟一些產業機密我們大概立法院就可以閉嘴了否則每次都說你在牽扯這機密這個真的實在是我沒有辦法接受牽涉到我們很重要的半導體的廠商啦\n\n05:28.689 --> 05:43.292\n好我廠商我不要我也不care你們跟他之間到底有什麼樣的deal我只告訴你我們國家付錢這些人到底每一個月領多少錢這個是符合規定給我所以沒有什麼道理我要不到的你們給我這一份真的是讓我現在非常的生氣好不好\n\n05:44.212 --> 06:04.324\n主委然后接下来呢我们还是要回应到你刚刚所说一个比较重要的问题就是有关诺贝尔问题当然你那一句话叫说没有出不了这个诺贝尔得主叫做丢脸观这句话讲的够重但是过重的过程当中也引起非常多的一个讨论啊你认为用诺贝尔的这个量化的指标来当做科研的成就这句话成不成立\n\n06:05.578 --> 06:23.033\n我這個不叫量化啦我是說因為諾貝爾獎評審的條件是要對人類社會有正面的重大貢獻嘛所以我的意思就是說我們的這個研究也不見得所有領域都是有諾貝爾獎啦還有很多其他領域是啦但是好啦主委我就要跟你討論嘛以這個精神就是要對我們的社會\n\n06:24.935 --> 06:41.367\n我們的文化文明的提升等等要有我同意啊我今天坐在台下裡面講啊我在大學教書二十幾年我也認為每次都是用那個所謂的這個paper的一個產量來當作是升等或是任何的一個指標我也覺得這個東西是不盡公平因為畢竟來說如果說你要當paper當指標我告訴你現在目前太多學者為了拿到獎勵特別是國科會的獎勵有很多很多的paper你們國科會要的連續型計畫大家會給你連續型你們要跨領域就可以跨領域你們要綜合就可以跨\n\n06:53.195 --> 07:21.198\n很多人为了要符合这个标准然后就开始不是好好的去专研深化他的研究完全是配合这个浅层的这个指标我们都同意这一点嘛所以我赞成你刚刚的说法但是我还是要回应过来因为诺贝尔的关系你要看看我们过去28年开始我们其实已经花了多少钱大概投资了超过3000亿以上来对我们这个研究包括我们每个人都经历过的卓越计划顶尖计划深耕计划\n\n07:21.638 --> 07:25.142\n投入非常多的钱但是呢很显然为了南北平衡还有为了非常多的这样子的一个很多齐头市所以齐头市的分配我觉得这个才是造成我们现在没有办法好好地深化的所以呢台大的陈文章\n\n07:37.657 --> 08:05.476\n这个校长忍不住说了你若要产生一个诺贝尔我们说实在你要让世界知道嘛你美国国家科学院的这个院士美国国家工程学院的院士或者欧加的院士你可能要有一些的作为到时候诺贝尔投票的时候才会有这样的一个基础嘛但是我们却没有办法往这边来走更不要说我们接下来去看了我们在过去十年来说的话要产生不管是诺贝尔或是更有贡献的我们的基础研究\n\n08:06.403 --> 08:10.177\n主管你同意吧基础研究应该是要投入更多的心力嘛\n\n08:11.038 --> 08:31.448\n我们科技预算的编列在基础研究是逐年在增加逐年在增加但是跟过去的比重来去看还是没有算是逐年增加我给你看一下比重你说像目前为止五年成长45%你希望能够让大学无后顾之忧但是我们来看一下科研的比率来说基础研究2023年大概是占26但是你跟2014年过去10年比起来过去的科研的比率还是占31%\n\n08:39.232 --> 08:43.994\n你現在只在26其實是逐年下降了這邊都有數據來告訴你然後呢你真的是投資比較多的是屬於技術的發展大概在45.5所以我們的基礎研究跟我們的技術發展來說比重幾乎是已經完全是下降到很低了更不要說呢我們如果看到整個的研究方法來我們往下去看你像2014是9.5到目前為止大概是只有只有你看2022比CPS8\n\n09:07.546 --> 09:22.435\n你跟去年比起來大致成長0.4%報告委員我們的原因是因為應用研究的人口增加比重蠻高的但是基礎研究的人力它的數量為此大概變化不大\n\n09:23.055 --> 09:42.515\n所以他們每個人的人均研究的經驗都一直快速在提升但是我還是提醒主委你所認為的基礎研究沒有你想像中那麼多相對而言我只是說我們要對於基礎研究這整張重點就告訴你基礎研究的重要性過去我們長期被技術上面來說的話我們這個部分裡面\n\n09:47.039 --> 10:08.039\n的确在这个经费的比重上因为这个部分里面任何的科研人才还是直居于基础研究这是非常重要的当然是我们科学人才里面我们是高度的流失再给你看一个数据我们往下来去看我们用这个2024IMD的这个所谓的竞争力来去看整体来看我们是稍微是退步的\n\n10:08.399 --> 10:22.795\n然後再來看氣象來說你看我們各個的這個特別是在有關於環境吸引國外高階人才來說我們真的是退步蠻多特別是科技人才的充足度不好意思我們足足退步的10名左右\n\n10:23.336 --> 10:41.389\n我们真的是这个部分在于有关要留住人才不管是在本国人才还是吸引外国的人才到我们台湾来其实我们在这一块逐年都是在衰退当中这是我们的警讯这是我们警讯当然是来自于不管是我们的薪资还有包括我们所有大概不可否认嘛助理教授\n\n10:41.989 --> 11:04.926\n很勉强都要到100万年薪100万都有点辛苦那随便一个半导体造一个非常年轻的研究所毕业的工程师大概就可以马上开出200多万所以你很难吸引很多的我们这样的一个人愿意留在我们基础的地方来去做这是我们很大的一个隐忧嘛因为用户的条件利用条件还有所谓的team基本上面目前为止是面临一个非常大的困难点啊\n\n11:06.219 --> 11:26.672\n國會在我們主政的範圍我們會盡量就是說我們在學者的研究計畫的經費的額度主持費我們都提升了但是委員提到的在我們整個教育體系的薪資的問題我們當然希望教育部我們也一起來努力在我們整個政府的這個機制\n\n11:31.635 --> 11:55.606\n我覺得國科會在這一點的話勢必有些時候要跟教育部好好來溝通討論教育部所放的一個重點其實在在真的是牽連到我們未來人才的一個培養高教人才逐漸的一個流失這些逐漸的流失裡面其實就是我們人才庫未來是不是可以更豐厚然後這些人才庫是否留得住當這個環境學術環境如果不夠精彩的話其實外國的學者也很不願意\n\n11:55.606 --> 11:55.706\n我們會努力\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.188,"end":7.557,"text":"柯之恩委員質詢謝謝莊委 我們是不是請主委有請主委備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":14.735,"end":31.971,"text":"各位好 你應該不只一次說台積電會跟流台灣而且事實上只有台灣的政府才會真心照顧我們這個保護我們台灣的廠商這一點我完全同意 因為這是大家共同的一個期望但是我們現在必須要知道的就是台積電移過去之後呢大家就會開始發現說其實全球的產業鏈其實正是經歷一所前所未有的大遷徙"},{"start":39.178,"end":43.22,"text":"台積電過去了 我們後端的封測廠應該也都會過去吧這點應該是毋庸置疑的吧不對 柯委員 我跟你講 台積電並沒有移過去台積電會擴充它的實力我說它會有一大堆移過去一些的部分然後封測廠是不是接連也要過去 是不是"},{"start":64.77,"end":91.339,"text":"风土产当然也要扩充他们的实力所以说这就是为什么大家会认为整个的供应链里面会面临一场大的迁徙我们先把这个前提先确定一下然后接下来就是我真的是要跟国客会有关的就是因为因应这样子你特别提到了我们要结合AI提早布局台湾未来的科技产业没有错所以你们就提出了一个精创台湾方案"},{"start":92.8,"end":94.083,"text":"三千億 這點沒有錯吧這個是在"},{"start":98.543,"end":103.307,"text":"上一届的當然不是你認的三千億我們來看看這個三千億當中怎麼樣來花這個主委我第一個要先特別問到的話這個是113到112然後呢八隻指計畫當中呢只有一支計畫是今年今年1月1號才開始執行其他的七個部分呢都是在去年1月1號就開始執行沒有錯吧這個時間軸沒有錯是"},{"start":126.064,"end":151.835,"text":"好 那重点就是了 你们去年1月1号开始执行你们却在去年的5月成立了一个精创台湾推动的办公室你告诉我是要策略规划 计划管考 指引方向这很奇怪啊 你1月1号就已经开始先行了你5月才给我成立这个办公室 到底是为什么都已经先成立了 其实都已经先成立了为什么5月还成立这个办公室"},{"start":153.168,"end":173.975,"text":"而且这个办公室到底花了多少钱这个办公室你找的十位学者当然有一些是跟绿营关系非常好的我就不再一一追究但是呢这个部分里面呢一年当中呢我问了老半天到底这十位学者专家到底是做了哪些事情薪水到底多少这个我问不到哎哎"},{"start":174.975,"end":179.158,"text":"主委我問不到欸你告訴我說這個部分裡面呢我要交代到底要做些哪些的事情你們裡面的具體的細項到底是什麼我問不到你們給我回應了一個完全是根據外聘人員然後根據專題研究經費的方法來處理還有根據軍公教人員兼職的知己要領我做的國科會拿了"},{"start":198.272,"end":217.164,"text":"四年的計劃補助我當然知道這個錢多少你卻是在這個過程當中研究人力的費用竟然花了八千萬我問不到這裡面的細項八千萬一年的經費是八千萬更何況你是五月在已經先成立完之後五月才成立這個辦公室請問可不可以交代一下這個辦公室到底在做什麼"},{"start":218.26,"end":236.78,"text":"一年經費八千萬難道你告訴我十個人一個人領八百萬嗎應該不是吧報告委員我們很多重大的政策項目都有成立推動辦公室不是只有金創辦公室我現在只問說你一月就已經七支計畫先行你五月才成立這個辦公室所以你讓我們大家覺得是你是先設計再畫吧"},{"start":238.39,"end":254.021,"text":"就我所知 去年1月才開始精算計畫的推動那開始以後才確定立法院審查完這個預算以後才確定有這一筆預算 他們才去組專家團成立這個推動辦公室"},{"start":255.642,"end":282.723,"text":"主委你如果是这样的话你要请你们的法务专家来看一下你七只子计划一月就已经开始先行了五月再成立这个办公室这个逻辑上面的措置是有一些的问题的我现在只要求在这个时间点我要看到你的研究经费的八千万当中一年成立八千万当中里面有多少人到底每个月你的薪资是多少助理费到底是多少里面的细项可不可以交给本席一份"},{"start":283.564,"end":297.158,"text":"我在一般來說我要不到,我只能跟你在這個執行上要到因為這牽涉到很多的是跟...有些什麼機密嗎?又是秘密文件嗎?有些商業機密,有些商業機密我只是要人到底領多少錢,這也是商業機密他們做的事情是要密切跟執行計畫的單位不是各部會,是執行計畫的單位他們要互動的,這個包含產業的推動的項目"},{"start":307.708,"end":327.568,"text":"好 你信箱可以不用給 但是每一個人領多少錢 這應該可以給嘛你告訴我是依照一般的轉 我要不到 所以給我一份這些人到底領多少錢 好不好你們現在每次什麼 每次都要跟一些產業機密我們大概立法院就可以閉嘴了否則每次都說你在牽扯這機密 這個真的實在是我沒有辦法接受牽涉到我們很重要的半導體的廠商啦"},{"start":328.689,"end":343.292,"text":"好 我廠商我不要我也不care你們跟他之間到底有什麼樣的deal我只告訴你我們國家付錢這些人到底每一個月領多少錢這個是符合規定給我所以沒有什麼道理我要不到的你們給我這一份真的是讓我現在非常的生氣 好不好"},{"start":344.212,"end":364.324,"text":"主委然后接下来呢我们还是要回应到你刚刚所说一个比较重要的问题就是有关诺贝尔问题当然你那一句话叫说没有出不了这个诺贝尔得主叫做丢脸观这句话讲的够重但是过重的过程当中也引起非常多的一个讨论啊你认为用诺贝尔的这个量化的指标来当做科研的成就这句话成不成立"},{"start":365.578,"end":383.033,"text":"我這個不叫量化啦我是說因為諾貝爾獎評審的條件是要對人類社會有正面的重大貢獻嘛所以我的意思就是說我們的這個研究也不見得所有領域都是有諾貝爾獎啦還有很多其他領域是啦但是好啦主委我就要跟你討論嘛以這個精神就是要對我們的社會"},{"start":384.935,"end":401.367,"text":"我們的文化 文明的提升等等要有我同意啊 我今天坐在台下裡面講啊我在大學教書二十幾年我也認為每次都是用那個所謂的這個paper的一個產量來當作是升等或是任何的一個指標我也覺得這個東西是不盡公平因為畢竟來說如果說你要當paper當指標我告訴你現在目前太多學者為了拿到獎勵 特別是國科會的獎勵有很多很多的paper你們國科會要的連續型計畫 大家會給你連續型你們要跨領域就可以跨領域你們要綜合就可以跨"},{"start":413.195,"end":441.198,"text":"很多人为了要符合这个标准然后就开始不是好好的去专研深化他的研究完全是配合这个浅层的这个指标我们都同意这一点嘛所以我赞成你刚刚的说法但是我还是要回应过来因为诺贝尔的关系你要看看我们过去28年开始我们其实已经花了多少钱大概投资了超过3000亿以上来对我们这个研究包括我们每个人都经历过的卓越计划 顶尖计划 深耕计划"},{"start":441.638,"end":445.142,"text":"投入非常多的钱但是呢很显然为了南北平衡还有为了非常多的这样子的一个很多齐头市所以齐头市的分配我觉得这个才是造成我们现在没有办法好好地深化的所以呢台大的陈文章"},{"start":457.657,"end":485.476,"text":"这个校长忍不住说了你若要产生一个诺贝尔我们说实在你要让世界知道嘛你美国国家科学院的这个院士美国国家工程学院的院士或者欧加的院士你可能要有一些的作为到时候诺贝尔投票的时候才会有这样的一个基础嘛但是我们却没有办法往这边来走更不要说我们接下来去看了我们在过去十年来说的话要产生不管是诺贝尔或是更有贡献的我们的基础研究"},{"start":486.403,"end":490.177,"text":"主管你同意吧基础研究应该是要投入更多的心力嘛"},{"start":491.038,"end":511.448,"text":"我们科技预算的编列在基础研究是逐年在增加逐年在增加但是跟过去的比重来去看还是没有算是逐年增加我给你看一下比重你说像目前为止五年成长45%你希望能够让大学无后顾之忧但是我们来看一下科研的比率来说基础研究2023年大概是占26但是你跟2014年过去10年比起来过去的科研的比率还是占31%"},{"start":519.232,"end":523.994,"text":"你現在只在26其實是逐年下降了這邊都有數據來告訴你然後呢你真的是投資比較多的是屬於技術的發展大概在45.5所以我們的基礎研究跟我們的技術發展來說比重幾乎是已經完全是下降到很低了更不要說呢我們如果看到整個的研究方法來我們往下去看你像2014是9.5到目前為止大概是只有只有你看2022比CPS8"},{"start":547.546,"end":562.435,"text":"你跟去年比起來大致成長0.4%報告委員我們的原因是因為應用研究的人口增加比重蠻高的但是基礎研究的人力它的數量為此大概變化不大"},{"start":563.055,"end":582.515,"text":"所以他們每個人的人均研究的經驗都一直快速在提升但是我還是提醒主委你所認為的基礎研究沒有你想像中那麼多相對而言我只是說我們要對於基礎研究這整張重點就告訴你基礎研究的重要性過去我們長期被技術上面來說的話我們這個部分裡面"},{"start":587.039,"end":608.039,"text":"的确在这个经费的比重上因为这个部分里面任何的科研人才还是直居于基础研究这是非常重要的当然是我们科学人才里面我们是高度的流失再给你看一个数据我们往下来去看我们用这个2024 IMD的这个所谓的竞争力来去看整体来看我们是稍微是退步的"},{"start":608.399,"end":622.795,"text":"然後再來看氣象來說你看我們各個的這個特別是在有關於環境吸引國外高階人才來說我們真的是退步蠻多特別是科技人才的充足度不好意思我們足足退步的10名左右"},{"start":623.336,"end":641.389,"text":"我们真的是这个部分在于有关要留住人才不管是在本国人才还是吸引外国的人才到我们台湾来其实我们在这一块逐年都是在衰退当中这是我们的警讯这是我们警讯当然是来自于不管是我们的薪资还有包括我们所有大概不可否认嘛助理教授"},{"start":641.989,"end":664.926,"text":"很勉强都要到100万年薪100万都有点辛苦那随便一个半导体造一个非常年轻的研究所毕业的工程师大概就可以马上开出200多万所以你很难吸引很多的我们这样的一个人愿意留在我们基础的地方来去做这是我们很大的一个隐忧嘛因为用户的条件利用条件还有所谓的team基本上面目前为止是面临一个非常大的困难点啊"},{"start":666.219,"end":686.672,"text":"國會在我們主政的範圍我們會盡量就是說我們在學者的研究計畫的經費的額度主持費我們都提升了但是委員提到的在我們整個教育體系的薪資的問題我們當然希望教育部我們也一起來努力在我們整個政府的這個機制"},{"start":691.635,"end":715.606,"text":"我覺得國科會在這一點的話勢必有些時候要跟教育部好好來溝通討論教育部所放的一個重點其實在在真的是牽連到我們未來人才的一個培養高教人才逐漸的一個流失這些逐漸的流失裡面其實就是我們人才庫未來是不是可以更豐厚然後這些人才庫是否留得住當這個環境學術環境如果不夠精彩的話其實外國的學者也很不願意"},{"start":715.606,"end":715.706,"text":"我們會努力"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":134,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時26分）謝謝召委，我們是不是請主委？"],["主席：有請主委備詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：柯委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：主委好。你應該不只一次說台積電會根留臺灣，而且事實上只有臺灣的政府才會真心照顧、保護我們臺灣的廠商，這點我完全同意，因為這是大家共同的期望。但是我們現在必須要知道，台積電移過去之後，大家就會開始發現全球的產業鏈其實正經歷一場前所未有的大遷徙，台積電過去了，我們後端的封測廠應該也都會過去吧？這點應該是無庸置疑的吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不對，柯委員，我跟你講，台積電並沒有移過去，台積電是根留臺灣……"],["柯委員志恩：不是啦！我是說它有……"],["吳主任委員誠文：台積電會擴充它的實力。"],["柯委員志恩：對啦！我說它會有一大堆、要移過去一些的部分，然後封測廠是不是接連也要過去，是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：封測廠當然也要擴充……"],["柯委員志恩：當然啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：他們的實力……"],["柯委員志恩：所以說嘛！這就是為什麼大家會認為整個供應鏈會面臨一場大遷徙，我們先把這個前提確定一下。接下來就是真的跟國科會有關的，就是因為要因應這樣子，你特別提到我們要結合AI，提早布局臺灣未來的科技產業，沒有錯，所以你們就提出了一個晶創臺灣方案，3,000億，這點沒有錯吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個是在上一屆的……"],["柯委員志恩：當然不是你任內，3,000億，我們來看看要怎麼樣來花這3,000億，主委，我第一個要先特別問到，這個是113到112，8支子計畫當中，只有1支計畫是今年1月1號才開始執行，其他7個部分都是在去年1月1號就開始執行，沒有錯吧？這個時間軸沒有錯？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["柯委員志恩：好，重點就是了，你們去年1月1號開始執行，你們卻在去年的5月成立了一個晶創臺灣推動的辦公室，你告訴我是要策略規劃、計畫、管考、指引方向，這很奇怪啊！你1月1號就已經開始先行了，你5月才給我成立這個辦公室，到底是為什麼？都已經先成立了，7支都已經先成立了，為什麼5月還成立這個辦公室？而且這個辦公室到底花了多少錢？這個辦公室你找了10位學者，當然有一些跟綠營關係非常好，我就不再一一追究，但是這個裡面，一年當中，我問了老半天，這10位學者專家到底是做了哪些事情？薪水到底多少？結果我問不到，主委，我問不到，你告訴我這個部分，我要知道他們到底要做哪些事情，你們裡面具體的細項到底是什麼，我問不到，你們只給我回了一個，完全是根據外聘人員、根據專題研究經費的方法來處理，還有根據軍公教人員兼職的支給要點，我拿了國科會14年的計畫補助，我當然知道這個錢有多少，你在這個過程當中，研究人力的費用竟然花了8,000萬，我卻問不到這裡面的細項，8,000萬，一年的經費是8,000萬，更何況你是已經先成立完之後，5月再成立這個辦公室，請問可不可以交代一下這個辦公室到底在做什麼？一年經費8,000萬，難道你告訴我10個人1個人領800萬嗎？應該不是吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我們很多重大的政策項目都有成立推動辦公室，不是只有晶創辦公室。"],["柯委員志恩：我現在只問你1月就已經7支計畫先行，但你5月才成立這個辦公室，所以你讓我們大家覺得你是先射箭再畫靶！"],["吳主任委員誠文：就我所知，去年1月才開始晶創計畫的推動，立法院審查完這個預算以後，才確定有這一筆預算，他們才去組專家團、成立這個推動辦公室，所以……"],["柯委員志恩：主委，如果是這樣的話，你要請你們的法務專家來看一下，7支子計畫在1月就已經開始先行了，5月再成立這個辦公室，這個邏輯上面的錯置是有一些問題的，我現在只要求在這個時間點我要看到你研究經費的8,000萬當中，一年成立8,000萬當中裡面有多少人？到底每個月領的薪資是多少？助理費到底是多少？裡面的細項可不可以交給本席一份？一般來說我要不到，我只能在跟你質詢當中要到。"],["吳主任委員誠文：可以，我們可以更細部的，因為這牽涉到很多的是跟……"],["柯委員志恩：又是什麼？機密嗎？又是秘密文件嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有一些商業機密，我跟委員報告……"],["柯委員志恩：我只是要這些人到底領多少錢，這也是商業機密？"],["吳主任委員誠文：他們做的事情是要密切跟執行計畫的單位，不是各部會，是執行計畫的單位，他們要互動，這個包含產業的推動項目，晶創計畫……"],["柯委員志恩：好，細項可以不用給，但是每一個人領多少錢應該可以給嘛！你告訴我，是依照一般的是嗎？因為我要不到，所以給我一份，這些人到底領多少錢，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這可以，好。"],["柯委員志恩：你們現在每次什麼都是一些產業機密，立法院就可以閉嘴了，否則每次都說牽扯這機密……"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是，因為這……"],["柯委員志恩：這真的實在讓我沒有辦法接受。"],["吳主任委員誠文：牽涉到很重要的半導體廠商。"],["柯委員志恩：好，廠商我不要，我也不care你們跟他們之間到底有什麼樣的deal，我只告訴你，國家付錢，這些人到底每一個月領多少錢？這個是符合規定可以給我，所以沒有什麼道理我要不到，你們給我這一份真的讓我實在非常的生氣，好不好？主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["柯委員志恩：接下來，我們還是要回應到你剛剛所說一個比較重要的問題，就是有關諾貝爾的問題，當然你那一句話是，出不了諾貝爾得主叫做丟臉。果然這句話講得夠重，但是過重的過程當中也引起非常多的討論，你認為用諾貝爾量化指標來當作科研成就的這句話成不成立？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我說的這個不叫量化，我是說因為諾貝爾獎評審的條件是要對人類社會有正面的重要貢獻，所以我的意思是，我們的研究也不見得所有領域都是有諾貝爾獎，還有很多其他的……"],["柯委員志恩：是啦！但是……好了，主委，我就要跟你討論……"],["吳主任委員誠文：以這個精神，就是要對我們的社會、我們的文化、文明的提升等等要有貢獻……"],["柯委員志恩：我同意，我剛才坐在臺下講，我在大學教書二十幾年，我也認為每一次都是用所謂的paper產量來當作升等或是任何的指標，我也覺得這個東西是不盡公平，畢竟如果要用paper當指標，我告訴你，現在目前太多學者為了拿到獎勵，特別是國科會的獎勵，有很多的「撇步」，國科會要的連續型計畫，大家都給你們連續型計畫；你們要跨領域的，就給你們跨領域的；你們要綜合，就給你們綜合。很多人為了要符合這個標準，然後就開始不是好好地去鑽研、深化其研究，而是完全配合這個淺層的指標。","我們都同意這一點嘛！所以我贊成你剛剛的說法，但是我還是要回應過來，因為諾貝爾的關係，你要看看過去28年前開始其實已經花了多少錢，大概投資了超過3,000億以上來對於這個研究，包括每個人都經歷過的卓越計畫、頂尖計畫、深耕計畫，投入非常多的錢，但是很顯然為了南北平衡，還有為了很多的齊頭式，而齊頭式的分配，我覺得這個才是造成現在沒有辦法好好深化。所以臺大陳文章校長忍不住說，若要產生一個諾貝爾得主，說實在你也要讓世界知道，像美國國家科學院的院士、美國國家工程學院的院士，或者歐洲的院士，可能都要有一些作為，到諾貝爾投票的時候才會有這樣的基礎。但是我們卻沒有辦法往這邊走。我們接下來去看，我們以過去10年來說的話，要產生不管是諾貝爾或是更有貢獻的基礎研究，主委，你同意吧？基礎研究應該是要投入更多的心力嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們科技預算的編列，在基礎研究是逐年在增加。"],["柯委員志恩：逐年在增加，但是跟過去的比重來看，還是沒有算是逐年增加。我給你看一下比重，你說到目前為止，5年成長45%，你希望能夠讓大學無後顧之憂。但是我們來看一下，以科研的比率來說，基礎研究在2023年大概是占26%，但是跟過去10年比起來，2014年的科研比率還占31%，而現在只占26%，其實是逐年下降的，這邊都有數據告訴你，然後真的投資比較多的是屬於技術發展，大概占45.5%。所以以基礎研究跟技術發展來說，比重幾乎已經完全是下降到很低了，更不要說我們如果看到整個的研究方法，從2014年是9.5%，到目前為止，2023年是8%，跟去年比起來大概只成長0.4%。"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，這個的原因是因為應用研究的人口增加比重蠻高的，但是基礎研究的人力，其數量維持大概變化不大，所以他們每個人人均的研究經費都一直快速……"],["柯委員志恩：但是數據在這個地方，我還是……"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是，我們要看人均，每個人拿到的……"],["柯委員志恩：好，但是我還是提醒主委，你所認為的基礎研究沒有你想像中的那麼多，相對而言，我只是說，我們要對於基礎研究……這整張重點就告訴你基礎研究的重要性，過去我們長期以技術上面來說的話……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我同意。"],["柯委員志恩：的確在經費的比重上，因為這個部分裡面任何的科研人才還是植基於基礎研究，這是非常重要的……"],["吳主任委員誠文：同意、同意。"],["柯委員志恩：但是在科學人才裡面，我們是高度的流失，我再給你看一個數據，我們用2024年IMD所謂的競爭力來看，整體我們是稍微退步的，然後再來看細項，你看各個的，特別是在有關於環境吸引國外高階人才來說，我們真的是退步滿多，尤其是科技人才的充足度，不好意思，我們足足退步了10名左右，我們真的在於有關要留住人才的部分，不管是本國人才還是吸引外國人才到臺灣來，其實這一塊逐年都是在衰退當中，這是我們的警訊，而這當然是來自於不管是我們的薪資還有包括所有的。大家不可否認，助理教授勉強要到年薪100萬都有點辛苦，隨便一個半導體找一個非常年輕從研究所畢業的工程師，大概就可以馬上開出兩百多萬，所以你很難吸引很多這樣的人願意留在基礎的地方來做，這是我們很大的一個隱憂，因為誘惑的條件、deal的條文，還有所謂的team，基本上，目前為止是面臨一個非常大的困難點。"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會在主政的範圍會儘量，就是在學者研究計畫的經費額度上，主持費我們都提升了，但是委員提到整個教育體系的薪資問題，我們當然希望與教育部一起來努力，在整個政府的機制上，公教分離之類的那些……"],["柯委員志恩：我覺得國科會在這一點勢必有些時候要跟教育部好好來溝通、討論，教育部所放的一個重點，其實真的牽連到未來人才的培養。高教人才逐漸流失，這些逐漸的流失裡面，其實就是人才庫未來是不是可以更豐厚，然後這些人才庫是否留得住。當學術環境如果不夠精彩的話，其實外國學者也很不願意到我們這個地方，這是整體的部分，當人才不夠的時候，我們未來的產業發展也勢必受到非常大的影響，臺灣最重要的就是人才庫，如果這一點沒有辦法做到的話，其實這對臺灣未來的競爭力來說才是最大的一個損失。"],["吳主任委員誠文：同意，我們會努力。"],["柯委員志恩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩委員的質詢，主委請回座，謝謝。","接著繼續進行質詢，請林沛祥委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","林沛祥","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","葉元之","郭昱晴","范雲","陳培瑜","萬美玲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","林倩綺"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00002"}}}