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{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 795.918, \"end\": 795.938, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 795.938, \"end\": 795.978, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 795.978, \"end\": 795.998, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,069 --> 00:00:06,584\n謝謝主席有請彭部長有請部長\n\n2\n00:00:12,513 --> 00:00:39,194\n陳委員早部長早部長在貴部這個陳生這個環境署的時候在土屋基金管理會有編寫一份這個污染土地再利用制度說明手冊您看過這本手冊嗎我知道這個法令他第八頁非常清楚的寫著污染的土地再利用有兩種方式一個就是說你先去整治一直到解除劣管再使用另外一個方式就是說整治跟這個\n\n3\n00:00:41,479 --> 00:01:09,938\n再利用它是並行的就是並行的但原則上根據土屋法就是說前面的例子就先做完整治再來利用但是機有很少的例子是並行來做那土屋法第51條第二項受污染的這個整治場址在進行開發利用之前必須提出同時提出整治計畫那目的當然是保障這個環境安全跟民眾健康所以部長您熟悉這樣子的陳述嗎\n\n4\n00:01:13,419 --> 00:01:31,288\n那我接著要請部長看一下土屋法第17條第二項的規定被公告污染土地受污染整治長植的土地原則上禁止的土地利用行為包含下面一條我把它框起來了環境影響評估法所規定的開發行為\n\n5\n00:01:35,345 --> 00:01:41,602\n除非除非他經過中央主管機關的認同那這條法當初定的目的是什麼部長\n\n6\n00:01:42,797 --> 00:02:10,734\n其實報告委員以這個案例如果說你關心的協和電廠它其實106年曾經這種被列為污染的場址那其實經過一年大概一年多的時間107到108也整治過所以它就我們現在認定它並不是所謂的土壤污染的你講的時間點我有更後面的時間點的資料給你這個立法的目的就很清楚嘛\n\n7\n00:02:11,855 --> 00:02:15,522\n這個目前基本上是不是要在這個利用行為一定要這個要\n\n8\n00:02:18,118 --> 00:02:28,501\n環境評估法規定的開發行為這個部分它是要符合否則會被限制除非主管機關同意那我們再看下一張部長上個月底2月26號環評會不顧台電協和電廠世界開發案的土壤受嚴重污染的事實質疑在當天要通過環評你們自己打點這第17條第二項\n\n9\n00:02:42,225 --> 00:03:07,111\n我當然知道你們會說協和電廠這個土地不是被公告為不是被公告為已經處理過了土壤污染這個整治場址但這就是台電規避的原因因為一旦被公告為這個土地這個污染整治場址依法就不能再進行在這之前不能進行這個再咖啡利用所以台電明知道有污染\n\n10\n00:03:07,771 --> 00:03:12,796\n就是刻意對環境部環評會隱瞞資訊好根據我手上這幾份調查報告你先看投影片2019比你講的時間還晚2021、2022同樣的監測點多次重複出現土壤重金屬嚴重超標那\n\n11\n00:03:28,314 --> 00:03:41,229\n其中有一份我在2月25號部長那天總質詢你說你沒看到我新聞是2月25號後面有給政文是給你們然後副本是給台電跟基隆市市政府我給這個報告給你們這個報告裡面\n\n12\n00:03:45,578 --> 00:03:49,560\n就是剛剛我提到的這些檢查2019、2012、2012都有發現很多有污染情況但是環平火車就是硬要開下去硬開我必須說\n\n13\n00:03:59,522 --> 00:04:08,610\n非常離譜的台電委託的單位太新工程在內部會議在2024年11月6號剛剛我提到的這個資訊是2019、2021、2022有一些污染的內部的證據他們所謂的自主性調查但是到去年11月6號\n\n14\n00:04:21,622 --> 00:04:29,788\n台電跟他所委託的公司太新工程做內部的會議成就建議這太離譜了你看這個圖下一張那個圖等一下我交給你\n\n15\n00:04:34,489 --> 00:04:52,397\n這個是封面內部會的封面你看看他裡面的建議跟討論怎麼寫因為好這個洪匡因為已經知道污染位置因為他們提前做了這個自主性調查他已經知道哪些點是污染的他說已經知道污染位置正式調查時可以移點避開再來採樣檢測\n\n16\n00:04:57,391 --> 00:05:26,217\n實在是太離譜了好我請問你2025年我們再來做一次如何你真的請考驗嗎台電這麼多年來引領土地這個污染的事實讓整個環評機制受到質疑導致主管機關環評會他們也看不到這個資料那我在環評會之前把資料寄給你們當天開會的時候環境部也說收到啊收到我們資料但是環評會跟火車失速的火車一樣一直往前撞\n\n17\n00:05:27,503 --> 00:05:45,115\n開綠燈讓他規避規避台電被列為這塊土地被列為土壤污染的整治場場址的這種不良企圖請問部長我們在物理市很多人問環境部是經濟部的小弟嗎不是結果委員你會叫我是小弟\n\n18\n00:05:47,363 --> 00:06:07,010\n那我剛剛講的這個資料呢第一個是環評基本上如果它是土壤這個整治區它要完成之後才能進行開發環評是環評的一個程序那至於說委員提到這個東西我歡迎委員我們就來兼具你跟我講的重點等一下我繼續你跟我講的重點你一直在傳的跟那些市長講的話一樣\n\n19\n00:06:08,650 --> 00:06:36,481\n就是什麼整治跟這個環評是平行式是兩件事情這個你們利用那個法律的模糊來解釋為什麼不是先整治再環評到最後來看給大家看公平啊你們竟然組決議裡面通過原則就是通過17比0我形容那個是習近平跟金正恩開的會才會有17比0然後附在學藝寫的一些重要的事情你們要去持續要去追隨就是遵守那個整治法\n\n20\n00:06:37,541 --> 00:06:57,335\n所以基本上來我們來看看總之其實我給這個等一下我把這份給你然後你要看那個字規避這些地點已經遭到污染了所以我們這種自檢查是我們要避開這一點公然的要這樣子寫我要這份資料要得多辛苦我們早就有了其實接避者早就有了台電\n\n21\n00:06:57,955 --> 00:07:10,144\n怎麼隱瞞放多久才肯給我們包括委員那個接避者是不是送給我我們就成立接避者調查委員會然後來處理這個事情左院長已經同意了所以也非做不可那委員是不是也請台電來報告可以等一下我就交給你所以好我們來看這是當年這個台電的環評書內容明顯的造假說謊台電跟受託的這個泰興公司這個他前面有講說移動點嘛因為你們知道這些點是污染的所以你就避開了那個點\n\n22\n00:07:26,676 --> 00:07:40,180\n那最重要的是他隱瞞了真相他告訴你不要去碰那些點第二個泰興公司他不但是台電的自行檢測單位他竟然也是台電委託交出環評書的這個單位這樣有沒有利益衝突啊那這就是為什麼環評會議當天你們只交到一個點一個採樣點說不出事這個怎麼總是有探親話問沒有真猜不到\n\n23\n00:07:53,264 --> 00:08:02,030\n事實上自主調查是採了59個點位像話嗎?四千圈跑了59個點位然後知道哪邊有污染然後再找一個乾淨的是嗎?是這樣嗎?結果交出一個點位太離譜了明顯違反環評法第11條提出的文書明知為不實事項而記載這情勢所以環境部你要不要追究台電的造假問題還是要當共犯還是要當共犯\n\n24\n00:08:19,451 --> 00:08:25,174\n委員你送來的東西我們就成立一個吹哨者調查調查這段過程非做不可那這個是不是請台電來回應沒有他能回應嗎我剛剛講了有一句他是不實的嗎我現在問題是那天通過環評會議部長我要先跟你說你的環評會議你的環評會議17比0通過\n\n25\n00:08:39,015 --> 00:08:56,606\n17比0是一個一個問有共識委員你不能用那樣的說法我們是民主國家沒有委員你不能這樣說那天的很多的媒體都在現場17比0是什麼我沒有造假17比0是問說委員要不要共識決還是什麼決一個一個問過大家委員都沒有任何的意見這個是一個共識決\n\n26\n00:08:58,047 --> 00:09:18,407\n下面寫附帶決議說以後再補充說明也希望後續應該積極依照土屋法去辦理天啊有這個我就是通過了然後附帶決議說你們再去補充這些資料說明有這樣的水準的這個會議嗎我們發生什麼事情部長\n\n27\n00:09:19,984 --> 00:09:37,084\n但是上週四我不在場那天環評會我們三個立委在場上週四環團去環境部抗議在提出這些施政的時候媒體是報導我是想請教你有這回事嗎環境部有回應說已經要求基隆市進場查證如果查證處時完成整治後才能進行世界開發這是事實嗎\n\n28\n00:09:39,987 --> 00:09:53,592\n這個其實本來就是規定報告委員其實有一些要開發一定要整治環境才能再開發這個是過去已經有一個事實在這邊過去很多的案例都是這個樣子並不是說這個案子特別不一樣部長\n\n29\n00:09:54,372 --> 00:10:11,640\n土地搜燃那你要再宣證就是要基隆市市長當天也在場2月26號你要他再做一次檢查那你還名我們就告訴你這麼多資料開會前給你而且還有很多程序問題等一下我再繼續告訴你我們要求給了這個資料以後竟然還名會繼續開繼續開完全不停派你們那個市長徐市長對這個支持方那麼友善對反方一直罵\n\n30\n00:10:21,741 --> 00:10:50,307\n沒有委員那天你們已經我們提出程序問題因為我事前給你資料可是已經被霸佔的主席台了當然那個聲音很吵雜他說我們立委沒有資格提程序問題那委員那個環評會是以委員為主環評委員為主裡面有三分之二都是學者專家我跟你講程序問題在什麼地方就是第一個本來七天前開會要公告所有資料他讀了核心資料第六章第六章核心是缺的消失的好把那張給他們看\n\n31\n00:10:52,881 --> 00:11:11,738\n毒藥啊消失的毒藥那是核心資料啊就是我們最重視的那一點那一點資料沒有公開啊那你開什麼懷評大會包委員那本書是厚厚的裡面是有的你是破場戲啊好沒關係那天我今天沒有辦法這個徐司長當天也是對這個反方非常的不客氣對這個支持方講話很不客氣\n\n32\n00:11:18,680 --> 00:11:33,956\n因為那天卓部長已經指示要進行行政調查他答應我你在旁邊對不對歡迎委員把這個送過來我就來調查來處理這個資料你們沒有嗎我把資料寄給你們因為那個是吹哨者\n\n33\n00:11:34,659 --> 00:11:57,630\nNO這一部分是台電的台電有這個資料幫委員是不是請台電回覆一下反正行政調查第一個我要做行政調查否則你們就是共犯我們去調查真相然後第二個我要知道進度多久可以完成第三個在這行政調查之前二月二十六環民會是不是要先撤銷他的結論通過的結論這關係所有人民的這個土地健康跟國民的安全\n\n34\n00:12:05,289 --> 00:12:26,034\n請他回答一下因為卓院長在總質詢有說可以進行行政調查謝謝主席委員好台電公司在這邊做兩點聲明簡單的先回覆第一件事情土屋法跟環評法這兩個的法源是互不干涉的\n\n35\n00:12:27,746 --> 00:12:42,156\n剛剛部長有特別提示土定整理完成之後我強調的是我們已經找出很多資料你們在規避土屋因為你們說你們沒有被公告是污染的這個場址嗎不是土屋法委員我們先這樣講嘛你先把土屋法的法源跟環評法的法源兩個似乎不干擾沒有先後秩序你們先不要再處理你自己的程序你先通過然後我們再去調查沒有沒有沒有委員你這樣講就\n\n36\n00:12:57,866 --> 00:13:15,998\n比較不合乎邏輯了麻煩你回座我沒辦法跟他溝通就是說我部長因為卓院長當時有說就行政調查重啟嘛基隆市政府也叫他再調查一次2025年看通不通得過嘛我已經告訴你2019、2021、2022年你們還有多錄聯本欸很毒欸七倍欸好那我就行政調查好嗎好好了OK好接下來是可以再跟委員說明清楚了好不好\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n69\t6584\t謝謝主席 有請彭部長有請部長\n12513\t39194\t陳委員早部長早部長在貴部這個陳生這個環境署的時候在土屋基金管理會有編寫一份這個污染土地再利用制度說明手冊您看過這本手冊嗎我知道這個法令他第八頁非常清楚的寫著污染的土地再利用有兩種方式一個就是說你先去整治一直到解除劣管再使用另外一個方式就是說整治跟這個\n41479\t69938\t再利用它是並行的就是並行的但原則上根據土屋法就是說前面的例子就先做完整治再來利用但是機有很少的例子是並行來做那土屋法第51條第二項受污染的這個整治場址在進行開發利用之前必須提出同時提出整治計畫那目的當然是保障這個環境安全跟民眾健康所以部長您熟悉這樣子的陳述嗎\n73419\t91288\t那我接著要請部長看一下土屋法第17條第二項的規定被公告污染土地受污染整治長植的土地原則上禁止的土地利用行為包含 下面一條我把它框起來了環境影響評估法所規定的開發行為\n95345\t101602\t除非除非他經過中央主管機關的認同那這條法當初定的目的是什麼部長\n102797\t130734\t其實報告委員以這個案例如果說你關心的協和電廠它其實106年曾經這種被列為污染的場址那其實經過一年大概一年多的時間107到108也整治過所以它就我們現在認定它並不是所謂的土壤污染的你講的時間點我有更後面的時間點的資料給你這個立法的目的就很清楚嘛\n131855\t135522\t這個目前基本上是不是要在這個利用行為一定要這個要\n138118\t148501\t環境評估法規定的開發行為這個部分它是要符合否則會被限制除非主管機關同意那我們再看下一張 部長上個月底2月26號環評會不顧台電協和電廠世界開發案的土壤受嚴重污染的事實質疑在當天要通過環評你們自己打點這第17條第二項\n162225\t187111\t我當然知道你們會說協和電廠這個土地不是被公告為不是被公告為已經處理過了土壤污染這個整治場址但這就是台電規避的原因因為一旦被公告為這個土地這個污染整治場址依法就不能再進行在這之前不能進行這個再咖啡利用所以台電明知道有污染\n187771\t192796\t就是刻意對環境部環評會隱瞞資訊好根據我手上這幾份調查報告你先看投影片2019比你講的時間還晚2021、2022同樣的監測點多次重複出現土壤重金屬嚴重超標那\n208314\t221229\t其中有一份我在2月25號部長那天總質詢你說你沒看到我新聞是2月25號後面有給政文是給你們然後副本是給台電跟基隆市市政府我給這個報告給你們這個報告裡面\n225578\t229560\t就是剛剛我提到的這些檢查2019、2012、2012都有發現很多有污染情況但是環平火車就是硬要開下去硬開我必須說\n239522\t248610\t非常離譜的台電委託的單位太新工程在內部會議在2024年11月6號剛剛我提到的這個資訊是2019、2021、2022有一些污染的內部的證據他們所謂的自主性調查但是到去年11月6號\n261622\t269788\t台電跟他所委託的公司 太新工程做內部的會議成就建議這太離譜了 你看這個圖 下一張那個圖 等一下我交給你\n274489\t292397\t這個是封面內部會的封面你看看他裡面的建議跟討論怎麼寫因為好這個洪匡因為已經知道污染位置因為他們提前做了這個自主性調查他已經知道哪些點是污染的他說已經知道污染位置正式調查時可以移點避開再來採樣檢測\n297391\t326217\t實在是太離譜了好我請問你2025年我們再來做一次如何你真的請考驗嗎台電這麼多年來引領土地這個污染的事實讓整個環評機制受到質疑導致主管機關環評會他們也看不到這個資料那我在環評會之前把資料寄給你們當天開會的時候環境部也說收到啊收到我們資料但是環評會跟火車失速的火車一樣一直往前撞\n327503\t345115\t開綠燈讓他規避規避台電被列為這塊土地被列為土壤污染的整治場場址的這種不良企圖請問部長我們在物理市很多人問環境部是經濟部的小弟嗎不是結果委員你會叫我是小弟\n347363\t367010\t那我剛剛講的這個資料呢第一個是環評基本上如果它是土壤這個整治區它要完成之後才能進行開發環評是環評的一個程序那至於說委員提到這個東西我歡迎委員我們就來兼具你跟我講的重點等一下我繼續你跟我講的重點你一直在傳的跟那些市長講的話一樣\n368650\t396481\t就是什麼整治跟這個環評是平行式是兩件事情這個你們利用那個法律的模糊來解釋為什麼不是先整治再環評到最後來看給大家看公平啊你們竟然組決議裡面通過原則就是通過17比0我形容那個是習近平跟金正恩開的會才會有17比0然後附在學藝寫的一些重要的事情你們要去持續要去追隨就是遵守那個整治法\n397541\t417335\t所以基本上來我們來看看總之其實我給這個等一下我把這份給你然後你要看那個字規避這些地點已經遭到污染了所以我們這種自檢查是我們要避開這一點公然的要這樣子寫我要這份資料要得多辛苦我們早就有了其實接避者早就有了台電\n417955\t430144\t怎麼隱瞞放多久才肯給我們包括委員那個接避者是不是送給我我們就成立接避者調查委員會然後來處理這個事情左院長已經同意了所以也非做不可那委員是不是也請台電來報告可以等一下我就交給你所以好我們來看這是當年這個台電的環評書內容明顯的造假說謊台電跟受託的這個泰興公司這個他前面有講說移動點嘛因為你們知道這些點是污染的所以你就避開了那個點\n446676\t460180\t那最重要的是他隱瞞了真相他告訴你不要去碰那些點第二個泰興公司他不但是台電的自行檢測單位他竟然也是台電委託交出環評書的這個單位這樣有沒有利益衝突啊那這就是為什麼環評會議當天你們只交到一個點一個採樣點說不出事這個怎麼總是有探親話問沒有 真猜不到\n473264\t482030\t事實上自主調查是採了59個點位像話嗎?四千圈跑了59個點位然後知道哪邊有污染然後再找一個乾淨的是嗎?是這樣嗎?結果交出一個點位太離譜了明顯違反環評法第11條提出的文書明知為不實事項而記載這情勢所以環境部你要不要追究台電的造假問題還是要當共犯還是要當共犯\n499451\t505174\t委員你送來的東西我們就成立一個吹哨者調查調查這段過程非做不可那這個是不是請台電來回應沒有他能回應嗎我剛剛講了有一句他是不實的嗎我現在問題是那天通過環評會議部長我要先跟你說你的環評會議你的環評會議17比0通過\n519015\t536606\t17比0是一個一個問有共識委員你不能用那樣的說法我們是民主國家沒有 委員你不能這樣說那天的很多的媒體都在現場17比0是什麼我沒有造假17比0是問說委員要不要共識決還是什麼決一個一個問過大家委員都沒有任何的意見這個是一個共識決\n538047\t558407\t下面寫附帶決議說以後再補充說明也希望後續應該積極依照土屋法去辦理天啊有這個我就是通過了然後附帶決議說你們再去補充這些資料說明有這樣的水準的這個會議嗎我們發生什麼事情部長\n559984\t577084\t但是上週四我不在場那天環評會我們三個立委在場上週四環團去環境部抗議在提出這些施政的時候媒體是報導我是想請教你有這回事嗎環境部有回應說已經要求基隆市進場查證如果查證處時完成整治後才能進行世界開發這是事實嗎\n579987\t593592\t這個其實本來就是規定報告委員其實有一些要開發一定要整治環境才能再開發這個是過去已經有一個事實在這邊過去很多的案例都是這個樣子並不是說這個案子特別不一樣部長\n594372\t611640\t土地搜燃那你要再宣證就是要基隆市市長當天也在場2月26號你要他再做一次檢查那你還名我們就告訴你這麼多資料開會前給你而且還有很多程序問題等一下我再繼續告訴你我們要求給了這個資料以後竟然還名會繼續開繼續開完全不停派你們那個市長徐市長對這個支持方那麼友善對反方一直罵\n621741\t650307\t沒有委員那天你們已經我們提出程序問題因為我事前給你資料可是已經被霸佔的主席台了當然那個聲音很吵雜他說我們立委沒有資格提程序問題那委員那個環評會是以委員為主環評委員為主裡面有三分之二都是學者專家我跟你講程序問題在什麼地方就是第一個本來七天前開會要公告所有資料他讀了核心資料第六章第六章核心是缺的消失的好把那張給他們看\n652881\t671738\t毒藥啊 消失的毒藥 那是核心資料啊就是我們最重視的那一點那一點資料沒有公開啊那你開什麼懷評大會包委員 那本書是厚厚的 裡面是有的你是破場戲啊好 沒關係 那天我今天沒有辦法 這個徐司長當天也是對這個反方非常的不客氣對這個支持方 講話很不客氣\n678680\t693956\t因為那天卓部長已經指示要進行行政調查他答應我 你在旁邊對不對歡迎委員把這個送過來我就來調查來處理這個資料你們沒有嗎我把資料寄給你們因為那個是吹哨者\n694659\t717630\tNO 這一部分是台電的台電有這個資料幫委員是不是請台電回覆一下反正行政調查第一個我要做行政調查否則你們就是共犯我們去調查真相然後第二個我要知道進度多久可以完成第三個在這行政調查之前二月二十六環民會是不是要先撤銷他的結論通過的結論這關係所有人民的這個土地健康跟國民的安全\n725289\t746034\t請他回答一下因為卓院長在總質詢有說可以進行行政調查謝謝主席委員好台電公司在這邊做兩點聲明簡單的先回覆第一件事情土屋法跟環評法這兩個的法源是互不干涉的\n747746\t762156\t剛剛部長有特別提示土定整理完成之後我強調的是我們已經找出很多資料你們在規避土屋因為你們說你們沒有被公告是污染的這個場址嗎不是 土屋法委員我們先這樣講嘛你先把土屋法的法源跟環評法的法源兩個似乎不干擾沒有先後秩序你們先不要再處理你自己的程序你先通過然後我們再去調查沒有沒有沒有 委員你這樣講就\n777866\t795998\t比較不合乎邏輯了麻煩你回座我沒辦法跟他溝通就是說我部長因為卓院長當時有說就行政調查重啟嘛基隆市政府也叫他再調查一次2025年看通不通得過嘛我已經告訴你2019、2021、2022年你們還有多錄聯本欸很毒欸 七倍欸好 那我就行政調查好嗎好 好了 OK 好接下來是可以再跟委員說明清楚了好不好\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請彭部長有請部長\n陳委員早部長早部長在貴部這個陳生這個環境署的時候在土屋基金管理會有編寫一份這個污染土地再利用制度說明手冊您看過這本手冊嗎我知道這個法令他第八頁非常清楚的寫著污染的土地再利用有兩種方式一個就是說你先去整治一直到解除劣管再使用另外一個方式就是說整治跟這個\n再利用它是並行的就是並行的但原則上根據土屋法就是說前面的例子就先做完整治再來利用但是機有很少的例子是並行來做那土屋法第51條第二項受污染的這個整治場址在進行開發利用之前必須提出同時提出整治計畫那目的當然是保障這個環境安全跟民眾健康所以部長您熟悉這樣子的陳述嗎\n那我接著要請部長看一下土屋法第17條第二項的規定被公告污染土地受污染整治長植的土地原則上禁止的土地利用行為包含 下面一條我把它框起來了環境影響評估法所規定的開發行為\n除非除非他經過中央主管機關的認同那這條法當初定的目的是什麼部長\n其實報告委員以這個案例如果說你關心的協和電廠它其實106年曾經這種被列為污染的場址那其實經過一年大概一年多的時間107到108也整治過所以它就我們現在認定它並不是所謂的土壤污染的你講的時間點我有更後面的時間點的資料給你這個立法的目的就很清楚嘛\n這個目前基本上是不是要在這個利用行為一定要這個要\n環境評估法規定的開發行為這個部分它是要符合否則會被限制除非主管機關同意那我們再看下一張 部長上個月底2月26號環評會不顧台電協和電廠世界開發案的土壤受嚴重污染的事實質疑在當天要通過環評你們自己打點這第17條第二項\n我當然知道你們會說協和電廠這個土地不是被公告為不是被公告為已經處理過了土壤污染這個整治場址但這就是台電規避的原因因為一旦被公告為這個土地這個污染整治場址依法就不能再進行在這之前不能進行這個再咖啡利用所以台電明知道有污染\n就是刻意對環境部環評會隱瞞資訊好根據我手上這幾份調查報告你先看投影片2019比你講的時間還晚2021、2022同樣的監測點多次重複出現土壤重金屬嚴重超標那\n其中有一份我在2月25號部長那天總質詢你說你沒看到我新聞是2月25號後面有給政文是給你們然後副本是給台電跟基隆市市政府我給這個報告給你們這個報告裡面\n就是剛剛我提到的這些檢查2019、2012、2012都有發現很多有污染情況但是環平火車就是硬要開下去硬開我必須說\n非常離譜的台電委託的單位太新工程在內部會議在2024年11月6號剛剛我提到的這個資訊是2019、2021、2022有一些污染的內部的證據他們所謂的自主性調查但是到去年11月6號\n台電跟他所委託的公司 太新工程做內部的會議成就建議這太離譜了 你看這個圖 下一張那個圖 等一下我交給你\n這個是封面內部會的封面你看看他裡面的建議跟討論怎麼寫因為好這個洪匡因為已經知道污染位置因為他們提前做了這個自主性調查他已經知道哪些點是污染的他說已經知道污染位置正式調查時可以移點避開再來採樣檢測\n實在是太離譜了好我請問你2025年我們再來做一次如何你真的請考驗嗎台電這麼多年來引領土地這個污染的事實讓整個環評機制受到質疑導致主管機關環評會他們也看不到這個資料那我在環評會之前把資料寄給你們當天開會的時候環境部也說收到啊收到我們資料但是環評會跟火車失速的火車一樣一直往前撞\n開綠燈讓他規避規避台電被列為這塊土地被列為土壤污染的整治場場址的這種不良企圖請問部長我們在物理市很多人問環境部是經濟部的小弟嗎不是結果委員你會叫我是小弟\n那我剛剛講的這個資料呢第一個是環評基本上如果它是土壤這個整治區它要完成之後才能進行開發環評是環評的一個程序那至於說委員提到這個東西我歡迎委員我們就來兼具你跟我講的重點等一下我繼續你跟我講的重點你一直在傳的跟那些市長講的話一樣\n就是什麼整治跟這個環評是平行式是兩件事情這個你們利用那個法律的模糊來解釋為什麼不是先整治再環評到最後來看給大家看公平啊你們竟然組決議裡面通過原則就是通過17比0我形容那個是習近平跟金正恩開的會才會有17比0然後附在學藝寫的一些重要的事情你們要去持續要去追隨就是遵守那個整治法\n所以基本上來我們來看看總之其實我給這個等一下我把這份給你然後你要看那個字規避這些地點已經遭到污染了所以我們這種自檢查是我們要避開這一點公然的要這樣子寫我要這份資料要得多辛苦我們早就有了其實接避者早就有了台電\n怎麼隱瞞放多久才肯給我們包括委員那個接避者是不是送給我我們就成立接避者調查委員會然後來處理這個事情左院長已經同意了所以也非做不可那委員是不是也請台電來報告可以等一下我就交給你所以好我們來看這是當年這個台電的環評書內容明顯的造假說謊台電跟受託的這個泰興公司這個他前面有講說移動點嘛因為你們知道這些點是污染的所以你就避開了那個點\n那最重要的是他隱瞞了真相他告訴你不要去碰那些點第二個泰興公司他不但是台電的自行檢測單位他竟然也是台電委託交出環評書的這個單位這樣有沒有利益衝突啊那這就是為什麼環評會議當天你們只交到一個點一個採樣點說不出事這個怎麼總是有探親話問沒有 真猜不到\n事實上自主調查是採了59個點位像話嗎?四千圈跑了59個點位然後知道哪邊有污染然後再找一個乾淨的是嗎?是這樣嗎?結果交出一個點位太離譜了明顯違反環評法第11條提出的文書明知為不實事項而記載這情勢所以環境部你要不要追究台電的造假問題還是要當共犯還是要當共犯\n委員你送來的東西我們就成立一個吹哨者調查調查這段過程非做不可那這個是不是請台電來回應沒有他能回應嗎我剛剛講了有一句他是不實的嗎我現在問題是那天通過環評會議部長我要先跟你說你的環評會議你的環評會議17比0通過\n17比0是一個一個問有共識委員你不能用那樣的說法我們是民主國家沒有 委員你不能這樣說那天的很多的媒體都在現場17比0是什麼我沒有造假17比0是問說委員要不要共識決還是什麼決一個一個問過大家委員都沒有任何的意見這個是一個共識決\n下面寫附帶決議說以後再補充說明也希望後續應該積極依照土屋法去辦理天啊有這個我就是通過了然後附帶決議說你們再去補充這些資料說明有這樣的水準的這個會議嗎我們發生什麼事情部長\n但是上週四我不在場那天環評會我們三個立委在場上週四環團去環境部抗議在提出這些施政的時候媒體是報導我是想請教你有這回事嗎環境部有回應說已經要求基隆市進場查證如果查證處時完成整治後才能進行世界開發這是事實嗎\n這個其實本來就是規定報告委員其實有一些要開發一定要整治環境才能再開發這個是過去已經有一個事實在這邊過去很多的案例都是這個樣子並不是說這個案子特別不一樣部長\n土地搜燃那你要再宣證就是要基隆市市長當天也在場2月26號你要他再做一次檢查那你還名我們就告訴你這麼多資料開會前給你而且還有很多程序問題等一下我再繼續告訴你我們要求給了這個資料以後竟然還名會繼續開繼續開完全不停派你們那個市長徐市長對這個支持方那麼友善對反方一直罵\n沒有委員那天你們已經我們提出程序問題因為我事前給你資料可是已經被霸佔的主席台了當然那個聲音很吵雜他說我們立委沒有資格提程序問題那委員那個環評會是以委員為主環評委員為主裡面有三分之二都是學者專家我跟你講程序問題在什麼地方就是第一個本來七天前開會要公告所有資料他讀了核心資料第六章第六章核心是缺的消失的好把那張給他們看\n毒藥啊 消失的毒藥 那是核心資料啊就是我們最重視的那一點那一點資料沒有公開啊那你開什麼懷評大會包委員 那本書是厚厚的 裡面是有的你是破場戲啊好 沒關係 那天我今天沒有辦法 這個徐司長當天也是對這個反方非常的不客氣對這個支持方 講話很不客氣\n因為那天卓部長已經指示要進行行政調查他答應我 你在旁邊對不對歡迎委員把這個送過來我就來調查來處理這個資料你們沒有嗎我把資料寄給你們因為那個是吹哨者\nNO 這一部分是台電的台電有這個資料幫委員是不是請台電回覆一下反正行政調查第一個我要做行政調查否則你們就是共犯我們去調查真相然後第二個我要知道進度多久可以完成第三個在這行政調查之前二月二十六環民會是不是要先撤銷他的結論通過的結論這關係所有人民的這個土地健康跟國民的安全\n請他回答一下因為卓院長在總質詢有說可以進行行政調查謝謝主席委員好台電公司在這邊做兩點聲明簡單的先回覆第一件事情土屋法跟環評法這兩個的法源是互不干涉的\n剛剛部長有特別提示土定整理完成之後我強調的是我們已經找出很多資料你們在規避土屋因為你們說你們沒有被公告是污染的這個場址嗎不是 土屋法委員我們先這樣講嘛你先把土屋法的法源跟環評法的法源兩個似乎不干擾沒有先後秩序你們先不要再處理你自己的程序你先通過然後我們再去調查沒有沒有沒有 委員你這樣講就\n比較不合乎邏輯了麻煩你回座我沒辦法跟他溝通就是說我部長因為卓院長當時有說就行政調查重啟嘛基隆市政府也叫他再調查一次2025年看通不通得過嘛我已經告訴你2019、2021、2022年你們還有多錄聯本欸很毒欸 七倍欸好 那我就行政調查好嗎好 好了 OK 好接下來是可以再跟委員說明清楚了好不好\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.069 --> 00:06.584\n謝謝主席有請彭部長有請部長\n\n00:12.513 --> 00:39.194\n陳委員早部長早部長在貴部這個陳生這個環境署的時候在土屋基金管理會有編寫一份這個污染土地再利用制度說明手冊您看過這本手冊嗎我知道這個法令他第八頁非常清楚的寫著污染的土地再利用有兩種方式一個就是說你先去整治一直到解除劣管再使用另外一個方式就是說整治跟這個\n\n00:41.479 --> 01:09.938\n再利用它是並行的就是並行的但原則上根據土屋法就是說前面的例子就先做完整治再來利用但是機有很少的例子是並行來做那土屋法第51條第二項受污染的這個整治場址在進行開發利用之前必須提出同時提出整治計畫那目的當然是保障這個環境安全跟民眾健康所以部長您熟悉這樣子的陳述嗎\n\n01:13.419 --> 01:31.288\n那我接著要請部長看一下土屋法第17條第二項的規定被公告污染土地受污染整治長植的土地原則上禁止的土地利用行為包含下面一條我把它框起來了環境影響評估法所規定的開發行為\n\n01:35.345 --> 01:41.602\n除非除非他經過中央主管機關的認同那這條法當初定的目的是什麼部長\n\n01:42.797 --> 02:10.734\n其實報告委員以這個案例如果說你關心的協和電廠它其實106年曾經這種被列為污染的場址那其實經過一年大概一年多的時間107到108也整治過所以它就我們現在認定它並不是所謂的土壤污染的你講的時間點我有更後面的時間點的資料給你這個立法的目的就很清楚嘛\n\n02:11.855 --> 02:15.522\n這個目前基本上是不是要在這個利用行為一定要這個要\n\n02:18.118 --> 02:28.501\n環境評估法規定的開發行為這個部分它是要符合否則會被限制除非主管機關同意那我們再看下一張部長上個月底2月26號環評會不顧台電協和電廠世界開發案的土壤受嚴重污染的事實質疑在當天要通過環評你們自己打點這第17條第二項\n\n02:42.225 --> 03:07.111\n我當然知道你們會說協和電廠這個土地不是被公告為不是被公告為已經處理過了土壤污染這個整治場址但這就是台電規避的原因因為一旦被公告為這個土地這個污染整治場址依法就不能再進行在這之前不能進行這個再咖啡利用所以台電明知道有污染\n\n03:07.771 --> 03:12.796\n就是刻意對環境部環評會隱瞞資訊好根據我手上這幾份調查報告你先看投影片2019比你講的時間還晚2021、2022同樣的監測點多次重複出現土壤重金屬嚴重超標那\n\n03:28.314 --> 03:41.229\n其中有一份我在2月25號部長那天總質詢你說你沒看到我新聞是2月25號後面有給政文是給你們然後副本是給台電跟基隆市市政府我給這個報告給你們這個報告裡面\n\n03:45.578 --> 03:49.560\n就是剛剛我提到的這些檢查2019、2012、2012都有發現很多有污染情況但是環平火車就是硬要開下去硬開我必須說\n\n03:59.522 --> 04:08.610\n非常離譜的台電委託的單位太新工程在內部會議在2024年11月6號剛剛我提到的這個資訊是2019、2021、2022有一些污染的內部的證據他們所謂的自主性調查但是到去年11月6號\n\n04:21.622 --> 04:29.788\n台電跟他所委託的公司太新工程做內部的會議成就建議這太離譜了你看這個圖下一張那個圖等一下我交給你\n\n04:34.489 --> 04:52.397\n這個是封面內部會的封面你看看他裡面的建議跟討論怎麼寫因為好這個洪匡因為已經知道污染位置因為他們提前做了這個自主性調查他已經知道哪些點是污染的他說已經知道污染位置正式調查時可以移點避開再來採樣檢測\n\n04:57.391 --> 05:26.217\n實在是太離譜了好我請問你2025年我們再來做一次如何你真的請考驗嗎台電這麼多年來引領土地這個污染的事實讓整個環評機制受到質疑導致主管機關環評會他們也看不到這個資料那我在環評會之前把資料寄給你們當天開會的時候環境部也說收到啊收到我們資料但是環評會跟火車失速的火車一樣一直往前撞\n\n05:27.503 --> 05:45.115\n開綠燈讓他規避規避台電被列為這塊土地被列為土壤污染的整治場場址的這種不良企圖請問部長我們在物理市很多人問環境部是經濟部的小弟嗎不是結果委員你會叫我是小弟\n\n05:47.363 --> 06:07.010\n那我剛剛講的這個資料呢第一個是環評基本上如果它是土壤這個整治區它要完成之後才能進行開發環評是環評的一個程序那至於說委員提到這個東西我歡迎委員我們就來兼具你跟我講的重點等一下我繼續你跟我講的重點你一直在傳的跟那些市長講的話一樣\n\n06:08.650 --> 06:36.481\n就是什麼整治跟這個環評是平行式是兩件事情這個你們利用那個法律的模糊來解釋為什麼不是先整治再環評到最後來看給大家看公平啊你們竟然組決議裡面通過原則就是通過17比0我形容那個是習近平跟金正恩開的會才會有17比0然後附在學藝寫的一些重要的事情你們要去持續要去追隨就是遵守那個整治法\n\n06:37.541 --> 06:57.335\n所以基本上來我們來看看總之其實我給這個等一下我把這份給你然後你要看那個字規避這些地點已經遭到污染了所以我們這種自檢查是我們要避開這一點公然的要這樣子寫我要這份資料要得多辛苦我們早就有了其實接避者早就有了台電\n\n06:57.955 --> 07:10.144\n怎麼隱瞞放多久才肯給我們包括委員那個接避者是不是送給我我們就成立接避者調查委員會然後來處理這個事情左院長已經同意了所以也非做不可那委員是不是也請台電來報告可以等一下我就交給你所以好我們來看這是當年這個台電的環評書內容明顯的造假說謊台電跟受託的這個泰興公司這個他前面有講說移動點嘛因為你們知道這些點是污染的所以你就避開了那個點\n\n07:26.676 --> 07:40.180\n那最重要的是他隱瞞了真相他告訴你不要去碰那些點第二個泰興公司他不但是台電的自行檢測單位他竟然也是台電委託交出環評書的這個單位這樣有沒有利益衝突啊那這就是為什麼環評會議當天你們只交到一個點一個採樣點說不出事這個怎麼總是有探親話問沒有真猜不到\n\n07:53.264 --> 08:02.030\n事實上自主調查是採了59個點位像話嗎?四千圈跑了59個點位然後知道哪邊有污染然後再找一個乾淨的是嗎?是這樣嗎?結果交出一個點位太離譜了明顯違反環評法第11條提出的文書明知為不實事項而記載這情勢所以環境部你要不要追究台電的造假問題還是要當共犯還是要當共犯\n\n08:19.451 --> 08:25.174\n委員你送來的東西我們就成立一個吹哨者調查調查這段過程非做不可那這個是不是請台電來回應沒有他能回應嗎我剛剛講了有一句他是不實的嗎我現在問題是那天通過環評會議部長我要先跟你說你的環評會議你的環評會議17比0通過\n\n08:39.015 --> 08:56.606\n17比0是一個一個問有共識委員你不能用那樣的說法我們是民主國家沒有委員你不能這樣說那天的很多的媒體都在現場17比0是什麼我沒有造假17比0是問說委員要不要共識決還是什麼決一個一個問過大家委員都沒有任何的意見這個是一個共識決\n\n08:58.047 --> 09:18.407\n下面寫附帶決議說以後再補充說明也希望後續應該積極依照土屋法去辦理天啊有這個我就是通過了然後附帶決議說你們再去補充這些資料說明有這樣的水準的這個會議嗎我們發生什麼事情部長\n\n09:19.984 --> 09:37.084\n但是上週四我不在場那天環評會我們三個立委在場上週四環團去環境部抗議在提出這些施政的時候媒體是報導我是想請教你有這回事嗎環境部有回應說已經要求基隆市進場查證如果查證處時完成整治後才能進行世界開發這是事實嗎\n\n09:39.987 --> 09:53.592\n這個其實本來就是規定報告委員其實有一些要開發一定要整治環境才能再開發這個是過去已經有一個事實在這邊過去很多的案例都是這個樣子並不是說這個案子特別不一樣部長\n\n09:54.372 --> 10:11.640\n土地搜燃那你要再宣證就是要基隆市市長當天也在場2月26號你要他再做一次檢查那你還名我們就告訴你這麼多資料開會前給你而且還有很多程序問題等一下我再繼續告訴你我們要求給了這個資料以後竟然還名會繼續開繼續開完全不停派你們那個市長徐市長對這個支持方那麼友善對反方一直罵\n\n10:21.741 --> 10:50.307\n沒有委員那天你們已經我們提出程序問題因為我事前給你資料可是已經被霸佔的主席台了當然那個聲音很吵雜他說我們立委沒有資格提程序問題那委員那個環評會是以委員為主環評委員為主裡面有三分之二都是學者專家我跟你講程序問題在什麼地方就是第一個本來七天前開會要公告所有資料他讀了核心資料第六章第六章核心是缺的消失的好把那張給他們看\n\n10:52.881 --> 11:11.738\n毒藥啊消失的毒藥那是核心資料啊就是我們最重視的那一點那一點資料沒有公開啊那你開什麼懷評大會包委員那本書是厚厚的裡面是有的你是破場戲啊好沒關係那天我今天沒有辦法這個徐司長當天也是對這個反方非常的不客氣對這個支持方講話很不客氣\n\n11:18.680 --> 11:33.956\n因為那天卓部長已經指示要進行行政調查他答應我你在旁邊對不對歡迎委員把這個送過來我就來調查來處理這個資料你們沒有嗎我把資料寄給你們因為那個是吹哨者\n\n11:34.659 --> 11:57.630\nNO這一部分是台電的台電有這個資料幫委員是不是請台電回覆一下反正行政調查第一個我要做行政調查否則你們就是共犯我們去調查真相然後第二個我要知道進度多久可以完成第三個在這行政調查之前二月二十六環民會是不是要先撤銷他的結論通過的結論這關係所有人民的這個土地健康跟國民的安全\n\n12:05.289 --> 12:26.034\n請他回答一下因為卓院長在總質詢有說可以進行行政調查謝謝主席委員好台電公司在這邊做兩點聲明簡單的先回覆第一件事情土屋法跟環評法這兩個的法源是互不干涉的\n\n12:27.746 --> 12:42.156\n剛剛部長有特別提示土定整理完成之後我強調的是我們已經找出很多資料你們在規避土屋因為你們說你們沒有被公告是污染的這個場址嗎不是土屋法委員我們先這樣講嘛你先把土屋法的法源跟環評法的法源兩個似乎不干擾沒有先後秩序你們先不要再處理你自己的程序你先通過然後我們再去調查沒有沒有沒有委員你這樣講就\n\n12:57.866 --> 13:15.998\n比較不合乎邏輯了麻煩你回座我沒辦法跟他溝通就是說我部長因為卓院長當時有說就行政調查重啟嘛基隆市政府也叫他再調查一次2025年看通不通得過嘛我已經告訴你2019、2021、2022年你們還有多錄聯本欸很毒欸七倍欸好那我就行政調查好嗎好好了OK好接下來是可以再跟委員說明清楚了好不好\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.069,"end":6.584,"text":"謝謝主席 有請彭部長有請部長"},{"start":12.513,"end":39.194,"text":"陳委員早部長早部長在貴部這個陳生這個環境署的時候在土屋基金管理會有編寫一份這個污染土地再利用制度說明手冊您看過這本手冊嗎我知道這個法令他第八頁非常清楚的寫著污染的土地再利用有兩種方式一個就是說你先去整治一直到解除劣管再使用另外一個方式就是說整治跟這個"},{"start":41.479,"end":69.938,"text":"再利用它是並行的就是並行的但原則上根據土屋法就是說前面的例子就先做完整治再來利用但是機有很少的例子是並行來做那土屋法第51條第二項受污染的這個整治場址在進行開發利用之前必須提出同時提出整治計畫那目的當然是保障這個環境安全跟民眾健康所以部長您熟悉這樣子的陳述嗎"},{"start":73.419,"end":91.288,"text":"那我接著要請部長看一下土屋法第17條第二項的規定被公告污染土地受污染整治長植的土地原則上禁止的土地利用行為包含 下面一條我把它框起來了環境影響評估法所規定的開發行為"},{"start":95.345,"end":101.602,"text":"除非除非他經過中央主管機關的認同那這條法當初定的目的是什麼部長"},{"start":102.797,"end":130.734,"text":"其實報告委員以這個案例如果說你關心的協和電廠它其實106年曾經這種被列為污染的場址那其實經過一年大概一年多的時間107到108也整治過所以它就我們現在認定它並不是所謂的土壤污染的你講的時間點我有更後面的時間點的資料給你這個立法的目的就很清楚嘛"},{"start":131.855,"end":135.522,"text":"這個目前基本上是不是要在這個利用行為一定要這個要"},{"start":138.118,"end":148.501,"text":"環境評估法規定的開發行為這個部分它是要符合否則會被限制除非主管機關同意那我們再看下一張 部長上個月底2月26號環評會不顧台電協和電廠世界開發案的土壤受嚴重污染的事實質疑在當天要通過環評你們自己打點這第17條第二項"},{"start":162.225,"end":187.111,"text":"我當然知道你們會說協和電廠這個土地不是被公告為不是被公告為已經處理過了土壤污染這個整治場址但這就是台電規避的原因因為一旦被公告為這個土地這個污染整治場址依法就不能再進行在這之前不能進行這個再咖啡利用所以台電明知道有污染"},{"start":187.771,"end":192.796,"text":"就是刻意對環境部環評會隱瞞資訊好根據我手上這幾份調查報告你先看投影片2019比你講的時間還晚2021、2022同樣的監測點多次重複出現土壤重金屬嚴重超標那"},{"start":208.314,"end":221.229,"text":"其中有一份我在2月25號部長那天總質詢你說你沒看到我新聞是2月25號後面有給政文是給你們然後副本是給台電跟基隆市市政府我給這個報告給你們這個報告裡面"},{"start":225.578,"end":229.56,"text":"就是剛剛我提到的這些檢查2019、2012、2012都有發現很多有污染情況但是環平火車就是硬要開下去硬開我必須說"},{"start":239.522,"end":248.61,"text":"非常離譜的台電委託的單位太新工程在內部會議在2024年11月6號剛剛我提到的這個資訊是2019、2021、2022有一些污染的內部的證據他們所謂的自主性調查但是到去年11月6號"},{"start":261.622,"end":269.788,"text":"台電跟他所委託的公司 太新工程做內部的會議成就建議這太離譜了 你看這個圖 下一張那個圖 等一下我交給你"},{"start":274.489,"end":292.397,"text":"這個是封面內部會的封面你看看他裡面的建議跟討論怎麼寫因為好這個洪匡因為已經知道污染位置因為他們提前做了這個自主性調查他已經知道哪些點是污染的他說已經知道污染位置正式調查時可以移點避開再來採樣檢測"},{"start":297.391,"end":326.217,"text":"實在是太離譜了好我請問你2025年我們再來做一次如何你真的請考驗嗎台電這麼多年來引領土地這個污染的事實讓整個環評機制受到質疑導致主管機關環評會他們也看不到這個資料那我在環評會之前把資料寄給你們當天開會的時候環境部也說收到啊收到我們資料但是環評會跟火車失速的火車一樣一直往前撞"},{"start":327.503,"end":345.115,"text":"開綠燈讓他規避規避台電被列為這塊土地被列為土壤污染的整治場場址的這種不良企圖請問部長我們在物理市很多人問環境部是經濟部的小弟嗎不是結果委員你會叫我是小弟"},{"start":347.363,"end":367.01,"text":"那我剛剛講的這個資料呢第一個是環評基本上如果它是土壤這個整治區它要完成之後才能進行開發環評是環評的一個程序那至於說委員提到這個東西我歡迎委員我們就來兼具你跟我講的重點等一下我繼續你跟我講的重點你一直在傳的跟那些市長講的話一樣"},{"start":368.65,"end":396.481,"text":"就是什麼整治跟這個環評是平行式是兩件事情這個你們利用那個法律的模糊來解釋為什麼不是先整治再環評到最後來看給大家看公平啊你們竟然組決議裡面通過原則就是通過17比0我形容那個是習近平跟金正恩開的會才會有17比0然後附在學藝寫的一些重要的事情你們要去持續要去追隨就是遵守那個整治法"},{"start":397.541,"end":417.335,"text":"所以基本上來我們來看看總之其實我給這個等一下我把這份給你然後你要看那個字規避這些地點已經遭到污染了所以我們這種自檢查是我們要避開這一點公然的要這樣子寫我要這份資料要得多辛苦我們早就有了其實接避者早就有了台電"},{"start":417.955,"end":430.144,"text":"怎麼隱瞞放多久才肯給我們包括委員那個接避者是不是送給我我們就成立接避者調查委員會然後來處理這個事情左院長已經同意了所以也非做不可那委員是不是也請台電來報告可以等一下我就交給你所以好我們來看這是當年這個台電的環評書內容明顯的造假說謊台電跟受託的這個泰興公司這個他前面有講說移動點嘛因為你們知道這些點是污染的所以你就避開了那個點"},{"start":446.676,"end":460.18,"text":"那最重要的是他隱瞞了真相他告訴你不要去碰那些點第二個泰興公司他不但是台電的自行檢測單位他竟然也是台電委託交出環評書的這個單位這樣有沒有利益衝突啊那這就是為什麼環評會議當天你們只交到一個點一個採樣點說不出事這個怎麼總是有探親話問沒有 真猜不到"},{"start":473.264,"end":482.03,"text":"事實上自主調查是採了59個點位像話嗎?四千圈跑了59個點位然後知道哪邊有污染然後再找一個乾淨的是嗎?是這樣嗎?結果交出一個點位太離譜了明顯違反環評法第11條提出的文書明知為不實事項而記載這情勢所以環境部你要不要追究台電的造假問題還是要當共犯還是要當共犯"},{"start":499.451,"end":505.174,"text":"委員你送來的東西我們就成立一個吹哨者調查調查這段過程非做不可那這個是不是請台電來回應沒有他能回應嗎我剛剛講了有一句他是不實的嗎我現在問題是那天通過環評會議部長我要先跟你說你的環評會議你的環評會議17比0通過"},{"start":519.015,"end":536.606,"text":"17比0是一個一個問有共識委員你不能用那樣的說法我們是民主國家沒有 委員你不能這樣說那天的很多的媒體都在現場17比0是什麼我沒有造假17比0是問說委員要不要共識決還是什麼決一個一個問過大家委員都沒有任何的意見這個是一個共識決"},{"start":538.047,"end":558.407,"text":"下面寫附帶決議說以後再補充說明也希望後續應該積極依照土屋法去辦理天啊有這個我就是通過了然後附帶決議說你們再去補充這些資料說明有這樣的水準的這個會議嗎我們發生什麼事情部長"},{"start":559.984,"end":577.084,"text":"但是上週四我不在場那天環評會我們三個立委在場上週四環團去環境部抗議在提出這些施政的時候媒體是報導我是想請教你有這回事嗎環境部有回應說已經要求基隆市進場查證如果查證處時完成整治後才能進行世界開發這是事實嗎"},{"start":579.987,"end":593.592,"text":"這個其實本來就是規定報告委員其實有一些要開發一定要整治環境才能再開發這個是過去已經有一個事實在這邊過去很多的案例都是這個樣子並不是說這個案子特別不一樣部長"},{"start":594.372,"end":611.64,"text":"土地搜燃那你要再宣證就是要基隆市市長當天也在場2月26號你要他再做一次檢查那你還名我們就告訴你這麼多資料開會前給你而且還有很多程序問題等一下我再繼續告訴你我們要求給了這個資料以後竟然還名會繼續開繼續開完全不停派你們那個市長徐市長對這個支持方那麼友善對反方一直罵"},{"start":621.741,"end":650.307,"text":"沒有委員那天你們已經我們提出程序問題因為我事前給你資料可是已經被霸佔的主席台了當然那個聲音很吵雜他說我們立委沒有資格提程序問題那委員那個環評會是以委員為主環評委員為主裡面有三分之二都是學者專家我跟你講程序問題在什麼地方就是第一個本來七天前開會要公告所有資料他讀了核心資料第六章第六章核心是缺的消失的好把那張給他們看"},{"start":652.881,"end":671.738,"text":"毒藥啊 消失的毒藥 那是核心資料啊就是我們最重視的那一點那一點資料沒有公開啊那你開什麼懷評大會包委員 那本書是厚厚的 裡面是有的你是破場戲啊好 沒關係 那天我今天沒有辦法 這個徐司長當天也是對這個反方非常的不客氣對這個支持方 講話很不客氣"},{"start":678.68,"end":693.956,"text":"因為那天卓部長已經指示要進行行政調查他答應我 你在旁邊對不對歡迎委員把這個送過來我就來調查來處理這個資料你們沒有嗎我把資料寄給你們因為那個是吹哨者"},{"start":694.659,"end":717.63,"text":"NO 這一部分是台電的台電有這個資料幫委員是不是請台電回覆一下反正行政調查第一個我要做行政調查否則你們就是共犯我們去調查真相然後第二個我要知道進度多久可以完成第三個在這行政調查之前二月二十六環民會是不是要先撤銷他的結論通過的結論這關係所有人民的這個土地健康跟國民的安全"},{"start":725.289,"end":746.034,"text":"請他回答一下因為卓院長在總質詢有說可以進行行政調查謝謝主席委員好台電公司在這邊做兩點聲明簡單的先回覆第一件事情土屋法跟環評法這兩個的法源是互不干涉的"},{"start":747.746,"end":762.156,"text":"剛剛部長有特別提示土定整理完成之後我強調的是我們已經找出很多資料你們在規避土屋因為你們說你們沒有被公告是污染的這個場址嗎不是 土屋法委員我們先這樣講嘛你先把土屋法的法源跟環評法的法源兩個似乎不干擾沒有先後秩序你們先不要再處理你自己的程序你先通過然後我們再去調查沒有沒有沒有 委員你這樣講就"},{"start":777.866,"end":795.998,"text":"比較不合乎邏輯了麻煩你回座我沒辦法跟他溝通就是說我部長因為卓院長當時有說就行政調查重啟嘛基隆市政府也叫他再調查一次2025年看通不通得過嘛我已經告訴你2019、2021、2022年你們還有多錄聯本欸很毒欸 七倍欸好 那我就行政調查好嗎好 好了 OK 好接下來是可以再跟委員說明清楚了好不好"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":202,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時15分）謝謝主席。有請彭部長。"],["主席：來，請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員早。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早。部長，貴部前身是環境署的時候，在土污基金管理會有編寫一份污染土地再利用制度說明手冊，您看過這本手冊嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我知道這個法令。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，它第8頁非常清楚寫出污染的土地再利用有兩種方式，一個就是先去整治一直到解除列管再使用，另外一個方式就是整治跟再利用是並行的。但原則上根據土污法，前面的例子就是先做完整治再來利用，但是極有很少的例子是並行來做。土污法第五十一條第二項，受污染的整治場址在進行開發利用之前必須同時提出整治計畫，目的當然是保障環境安全跟民眾健康，所以部長，您熟悉這樣子的陳述嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：熟悉、知道，對。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，我接著要請部長看一下土污法第十七條第二項的規定，被公告土地受污染，即整治場址的土地，原則上禁止的土地利用行為，包含下面一條，我把它框起來了：「環境影響評估法規定之開發行為」，除非它要經過中央主管機關的認同，這條法當初定的目的是什麼？部長。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，以這個案例，如果是你關心的協和電廠，它在106年曾經是被列為污染的場址，其實經過大概一年多的時間，107到108年也整治過，所以就我們現在認定，它並不是所謂土壤污染的管制區。"],["陳委員昭姿：沒關係，你講的時間點，我有更後面時間點的資料給你，就是這個立法的目的很清楚，基本上是不是利用行為一定要是環境評估法規定的開發行為？這個部分它要符合，否則會被限制，除非主管機關同意。","我們再看下一張簡報，部長，上個月底2月26號，環評會不顧台電協和電廠四接開發案的土地土壤受嚴重污染的事實，執意在當天要通過環評，你們自己打臉第十七條第二項。我當然知道你們會說協和電廠的土地，你剛剛有講不是被公告為已經處理過的土壤污染整治場址，但這就是台電規避的原因，因為一旦被公告為土地污染整治場址，依法在這之前就不能進行再開發利用，所以台電明知道有污染，就是刻意對環境部、環評會隱瞞資訊。","根據我手上這幾份調查報告，你先看投影片，2019，比你講的時間還晚，2021、2022，同樣的監測點多次重複出現土壤重金屬嚴重超標，其中有一份，我在2月25號，部長，那天總質詢，你說你沒看到，公文是2月25號，後面正本是給你們，副本是給台電跟基隆市政府，我把這個報告給你們，這個報告裡面就是剛剛我提到的這些檢查，2019、2021、2022都有發現很多有污染的情況，但是環評火車就是硬要開下去，硬開！我必須說非常離譜的，台電委託的單位泰興工程在2024年11月6號內部會議，剛剛我提到的這個資訊是2019、2021、2022有一些污染的內部證據，他們做所謂的自主性調查，但是到去年11月6號，台電跟泰興，即它所委託的公司泰興工程做內部會議時的建議，實在太離譜了。你看這個圖，就是下一張的圖，等一下我交給你，這個是內部會議的封面，你看看它裡面的建議跟討論怎麼寫，這個紅框「因已知污染位置」，因為他們提前做了自主性調查，它已經知道哪些點是污染的，它說「已知污染位置，正式調查時可移點（避開）再採樣檢測」，實在是太離譜了。","好，我請問你2025年我們再來做一次如何？你經得起考驗嗎？台電這麼多年來隱匿土地污染的事實，讓整個環評機制受到質疑，導致主管機關環評會他們也看不到這個資料，我在環評會之前把資料寄給你們，當天開會的時候，環境部也說收到我們資料，但是環評會跟失速的火車一樣，一直往前撞、開綠燈，台電規避這塊土地被列為土壤污染的整治場址的這種不良企圖，請問部長，我們再問一次，很多人問，環境部是經濟部的小弟嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：不是！只有委員你會叫我是小弟，報告委員……"],["陳委員昭姿：但是我剛剛講的這個資料呢？"],["彭部長啓明：第一個是環評，基本上如果它是土壤整治區，它要完成之後才能進行開發，環評是環評的一個程序，至於委員提到這個東西，我歡迎委員，我們就來檢舉、來處理這個事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：我繼續，你跟我講的重點，你一直再強調，跟那些司長講的話一樣，就是整治和環評是平行式、是兩件事情，這個你們利用法律的模糊來解釋，為什麼不是先整治再環評？到最後來看、給大家看，公平啊！你們竟然主決議裡面原則上就是通過17比0，我形容那是習近平跟金正恩開的會才會有17比0，然後附帶決議寫了一些重要的事情，你們持續要去追隨、遵守整治法。","所以基本上我們來看看，總質詢時，等一下我把這份給你，然後你要看那個字「規避」，這些地點已經知道污染了，所以我們正式檢查時，我們要避開這一點，公然這樣子寫，我要這份資料要得多辛苦，我們早就有了，其實揭弊者早就有了，台電怎麼隱瞞、放多久才肯給我們……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個揭弊者是不是送給我，我們就成立揭弊者調查委員會來處理這個事情？"],["陳委員昭姿：卓院長已經同意了，所以你也非做不可。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，是不是也請台電來報告？"],["陳委員昭姿：可以，等一下我就交給你。我們來看，這是當年台電的環評書內容，明顯的造假說謊，台電跟受託的泰興公司，它前面有講到移動點，因為你們知道這些點是污染的，所以你就避開了那個點，最重要是它隱瞞了真相，告訴你不要去碰那些點。第二個，泰興公司不但是台電的自行檢測單位，它竟然也是台電委託交出環評書的單位，這樣有沒有利益衝突啊？這就是為什麼環評會議當天你們只交了一個採樣點，你們說沒事，沒有總石油碳氫化合物，是零！偵測不到。事實上自主調查採了59個點位，像話嗎？事先跑了59個點位，知道哪邊有污染，然後再找一個乾淨的，是嗎？是這樣嗎？結果交出一個點位，太離譜了！明顯違反環評法第十一條，「提出的文書，明知為不實事項而記載之情形」。所以環境部你要不要追究台電的造假問題？還是要當共犯？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，針對你送來的東西，我們成立了一個吹哨者調查，調查這段過程……"],["陳委員昭姿：非做不可。"],["彭部長啓明：這是不是請台電來回應？"],["陳委員昭姿：他能回應嗎？我剛剛講的內容，有一句話是不實的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：來，請副總。"],["陳委員昭姿：我現在的問題是，那天通過環評會議……部長，我要先跟你說你的環評會議，環評會議是17比0通過……"],["彭部長啓明：17比0是一個一個問，有共識，委員你不能用那樣的說法，我們是民主國家。"],["陳委員昭姿：你們大概很少見識到一個17比0……"],["彭部長啓明：委員，你不能這樣說，那天有很多媒體都在現場。"],["陳委員昭姿：17比0是事實嘛，我沒有造假。"],["彭部長啓明：17比0是問委員要不要共識決，還是什麼決，一個一個問過大家，委員都沒有任何的意見，這是一個共識決。"],["陳委員昭姿：但通過是事實，下面附帶決議寫：以後再補充說明，希望後續應該積極依照土污法去辦理。喔！天啊！有這個……就是通過了，然後附帶決議說，你們再去補充這些資料說明，有這樣水準的會議嗎？你們發生什麼事情？部長。","上週四我不在場，但那天環評會我們3個立委在場。上週四環團去環境部抗議，在提出這些事證的時候，媒體報導……我是想請教你，有這回事嗎？環境部回應說，已經要求基隆市進廠查證，如果查證屬實，完成整治後才能進行四接開發，這是事實嗎？我看到的媒體……"],["彭部長啓明：這個其實本來就是規定。報告委員，有一些開發，一定要整治完竣才能開發，這是過去已經有一個事實在那邊，過去很多案例都是這個樣子，並不是這個案子特別不一樣。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，基隆市長2月26號當天也在場，你要他再做一次檢查，我們都告訴你這麼多資料了，開會前給你，而且還有很多程序問題，等一下我再繼續告訴你，我們要求給了這個資料以後，竟然環評會繼續開，完全不停！派你們的徐司長，他對支持方那麼友善，對反方一直罵……"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，委員……"],["陳委員昭姿：你們的主持、主席……"],["彭部長啓明：那天你們已經……"],["陳委員昭姿：我們提出程序問題，因為我們事前給你資料……"],["彭部長啓明：可是已經被霸占主席臺了，當然那個聲音很吵雜。"],["陳委員昭姿：他說我們立委沒有資格提程序問題？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個環評會是以環評委員為主，裡面有三分之二都是學者專家……"],["陳委員昭姿：我跟你講程序問題在什麼地方，本來開會7天前要公告所有資料，他獨漏核心資料第6章，第6章核心資料是缺的、消失的，把那一章給他們看，獨漏、消失的是核心資料啊！就是我們最重要、重視的那一點，那一點在資料中沒有公開，那你們開什麼環評大會？程序正義，你們是過場戲啊！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那本書厚厚的，裡面是有的。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，沒關係，我今天沒有辦法……徐司長當天對反方非常的不客氣，對支持方……他講話很不客氣。好，主席站起來了，我再把它說完，那天卓院長已經指示要進行行政調查，對不對？他答應我了。你在旁邊對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：嗯。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，那就……"],["彭部長啓明：歡迎委員把那個送過來，我再來調查、處理。"],["陳委員昭姿：這個資料你們沒有嗎？我把資料寄給你們了。"],["彭部長啓明：因為那個是吹哨者。"],["陳委員昭姿：No，這一部分是台電的，台電有這個資料。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，是不是請台電回復一下？"],["陳委員昭姿：你真的需要，我也會給你。好，反正行政調查，第一個，我要看到你們做行政調查，否則你們就是共犯，要調查真相；第二個，我要知道進度，多久可以完成？第三個，在做行政調查之前，2月26號環評會是不是要先撤銷他們通過的結論？這關係到所有人民的土地健康跟國民安全。"],["主席：陳委員，要不要請他回答一下？"],["陳委員昭姿：好，因為卓院長在總質詢時說可以，要進行行政調查。"],["郭副總經理天合：謝謝主席。委員好，台電公司在這邊做兩點聲明，先做簡單的回復，第一件事情，土污法跟環評法這兩個法源是互不干涉的，剛剛部長有特別提示……"],["陳委員昭姿：請停！"],["郭副總經理天合：土地整理完成之後……"],["陳委員昭姿：我強調的是，我們已經找出很多資料，你們在規避土污，因為你們說你們沒有被公告污染的場址嘛……"],["郭副總經理天合：不是，土污法……委員……"],["陳委員昭姿：我告訴你，有！的確是偽造文書。"],["郭副總經理天合：委員，我們先這樣講，土污法的法源跟環評法的法源兩個互不扞格，沒有先後次序………"],["陳委員昭姿：你們不要再處理自己的程序問題，你們先通過，然後再去調查嗎？"],["郭副總經理天合：沒有，委員你這樣講就比較不合乎邏輯了。"],["陳委員昭姿：麻煩你回座。部長，我沒辦法跟他溝通。部長，因為卓院長當時有說行政調查重啟，基隆市政府也叫他們重新再調查一次，2025年看通不通得過嘛，我已經告訴你們2019、2021、2022的，裡面還有多氯聯苯，很毒耶！7倍耶！好，我就請你們行政調查好嗎？"],["主席：好，OK啦！私下還是可以再跟委員說明清楚，好不好？我給你們時間說明，你們也是沒辦法。","接下來請林月琴委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張啓楷","張智倫","楊曜","翁曉玲","劉建國","陳瑩","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","蘇清泉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、教育部、經濟部、台灣電力公司、台灣中油公司就「氣象變異致\n國內空品惡化，精進預報與跨部會應變作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00004"}}}