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764.307, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 764.307, \"end\": 768.842, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 768.842, \"end\": 769.765, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"葛\", \"start\": 769.765, \"end\": 769.905, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 769.905, \"end\": 770.086, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"君\", \"start\": 770.086, \"end\": 770.246, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 770.246, \"end\": 770.267, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,089 --> 00:00:17,661\n好謝謝代理召委有請國科會吳承文主委有請吳主委各位好主委好主委早安\n\n2\n00:00:22,579 --> 00:00:47,672\n比AI還聰明主委早安今天是本會期第一次的輪值召委第一個議程立刻就來安排國科會來做業務報告也相信您可以看到本席對於科技發展真的非常重視但是不曉得主委對我國的科技發展是不是也能夠持續的發出同等的重視剛剛我看了你們的業務報告非常精彩\n\n3\n00:00:48,092 --> 00:00:55,335\n有提到很多的國際合作這一點我覺得非常非常的好也看到了非常多的副主委都在這樣的國際交流當中出現那剛剛林委員有提到的這個兵役的問題我確實真的覺得我們要趕快參考南韓在重點科技發展產業要把這些人才可以留下來\n\n4\n00:01:05,518 --> 00:01:21,276\n像我們有一個非常好的計畫叫TaiwanLLM裡面有一個非常好的研究員叫林彥廷他現在就去服兵役了那當然你說四個月說短不短但接下來有可能都會變成一年這個對AI來講四個月可能是四個世紀\n\n5\n00:01:21,957 --> 00:01:40,637\n一年很可能是一個好幾個世代的迭代希望主委可以評估一下盡快看我們能怎麼樣來照顧這些人才那我們今天檢視我們國歌會的業務報告我覺得還是想要來確認一下主委認為我們台灣的這個AI科研算完成了嗎\n\n6\n00:01:42,821 --> 00:02:00,098\n永遠不會完成沒錯嘛很好您的答案非常好包含我們的台德的計畫也一直都還在持續強化當中這個目前我們引頸期盼13B好像也還在做最後的確認當然很可能有很多原因啦包含資料啦等等\n\n7\n00:02:01,380 --> 00:02:24,437\n但是我想我們看到您的報告裡面其實我們今天的業務報告的內容可以看到通篇著重在AI產業化凡提及AI必說產業想請教一下主委你到底是忘了AI現在正處在您剛剛所提到的科研根本就還沒有完成的階段還是害怕想起來在科研領域當中AI是最重要的項目\n\n8\n00:02:25,037 --> 00:02:43,677\n一下子講AI產業化一下講產業AI化您是有一個非常重要的重點是AI科技的研發這是您的主責真的不要再來這個題說要甩鍋給速發部我想根據本席所知也跟您交流過上個禮拜五呢速發部跟國科會之間發生了一件大事\n\n9\n00:02:44,338 --> 00:02:59,306\n也許有很多國人或者也許在座的行政官員我都不確定你們清不清楚在行政院的強勢主導之下人工智慧基本法你們辛辛苦苦提出來這個草案跟規劃可以說是我們人工智慧發展的基本憲法\n\n10\n00:03:00,406 --> 00:03:15,857\n關乎了人工智慧未來的整體走向包含科技的研發結果行政院一聲令下粗暴的做成這樣的決定把AI人工智慧的這樣的一個觀點發展的主導權以及不管是方方面面的這個破壞的這個部分\n\n11\n00:03:17,878 --> 00:03:39,584\n從國科會主委您的手中奪走轉交給速發部想請教一下主委您對於行政院院長直接下達指令將AI基本法的主管機關由國科會你們擬定草案現在整件事情要移交給速發部國科會是不是有在黨政會議上表達您的意見或者抗議\n\n12\n00:03:40,564 --> 00:04:05,768\n報告委員這個在行政院討論的時候我是有參與那還有速發部的黃部長以及林政委、劉政委我們是共同認為接下來AI基本法進到我們要實施的階段以後一定會碰到很多應用上的這個層面那應用的部分是速發部在主政所以包含這個爭議性的問題產業發展的問題都是速發部的主政範圍\n\n13\n00:04:09,509 --> 00:04:23,415\n所以我剛剛問你嘛AI科研完成了沒你根本台灣還沒有發展科研人才也不夠你現在要說來做應用那我問主委剛剛我都理解請問要移交到速發部誰提出來的是共同討論的\n\n14\n00:04:27,692 --> 00:04:42,549\n我想這個文字上您既然在微笑我就不逼問了事實上您這個甩鍋的動作我不管這個鍋子是誰叫你甩的但實際上我是替在場的所有的國歌會的這些同仁報不平同時也對台灣的這個AI科研報不平\n\n15\n00:04:46,773 --> 00:05:04,112\n我們研議了一年結果呢我們整個AI的科研整個AI的基本法的這個所謂的根本大法呢包含了非常多的元素就這樣丟給速發部這是你們交給全民的答案嗎今天呢我們算了一下恰巧是主委您上任第三百天\n\n16\n00:05:04,873 --> 00:05:27,945\n不曉得主委是不是因為業務繁忙忘記了國科會業務職長本席幫您複習一下根據國科會技術委員會組織法第二條第四以及第五款重大科技研發計畫及資源學術研究之推動這是第四款第五款產業前瞻技術研發與學員創新政策之綜合規劃協調及推動\n\n17\n00:05:30,146 --> 00:05:58,405\n這都是你們的職長業務啊這難道不屬於AI嗎這跟AI科技研發沒有關係嗎結果呢為什麼國科院主委就任由我們的行政院您剛剛這麼尷尬的微笑說共同討論還不願意講誰先提出來的這個科學嗎自我閹割把行政院呢將人工智慧切割給整塊切給書發部的主管一語不發本席其實曾經期待主委您兼任科技政委\n\n18\n00:06:00,885 --> 00:06:15,949\n1965億的科技預算我們剛剛看到了還有包含3000億的這個所謂的AI晶片的計畫然後我們今年事實上當時我們是希望您可以做美國有AI沙皇我們也希望有AI沙皇早一點來推動這些東西結果我們發現該不會有人想把您變成拿錢不辦事的AI太上皇其實我們的這個資料也已經表示了\n\n19\n00:06:25,771 --> 00:06:45,416\n其實國科會投入AI科研的預算52億今年您在這個總質詢也提到了整個部會今年度增加的預算高達120幾到130億相較之下速發部的本部和資安署都跟我們表示今年度沒有編列AI研發預算是沒有\n\n20\n00:06:46,356 --> 00:07:14,199\n只有產業署呢勉強編列5.9億跟數位產業研發相關的以預算規模來看國科會您就是他們的10倍啊老實說很可能還要100倍才夠那接下來我們AI科研的責任卻完全甩鍋給速發部我剛剛已經提過了沒有人才沒有研發你怎麼去提應用你是要應用美國人的東西要應用哪些其他外部的人的東西嗎事實上我們希望可以提醒您\n\n21\n00:07:15,325 --> 00:07:35,700\n我們現在要做的真的是科研你們不要把這種畫紅線的這種機制說這是AI最重要的點是不是可以請主委回覆一下你是否同意既然你說那AI基本法都交給他們做啦那52億的AI科研預算要不要就交給速發部來主導\n\n22\n00:07:38,321 --> 00:07:55,348\n報告委員剛剛委員提到說國會要負責AI的科研這個才是重點我非常同意這一點就是因為這個樣子接下來AI基本法我們請數學部來做主政的單位我要全心來發展我們AI的研究\n\n23\n00:07:55,968 --> 00:08:17,099\n那這個AI的研究除了我們編列在各個學術處都有這個相關的預算之外我們也會委請中研研究院也要來加強這一塊所以就是不同意嘛是不是AI科研還是要在國科會嘛在國科會AI科研在國科會但是AI基本法的主政將來牽涉到應用所以一定是很多的這個產業的問題報告主委我們認為這樣子有錢無責在研發的部分\n\n24\n00:08:24,122 --> 00:08:36,173\n老實說這真的會變成AI太上華不是您願意的也許啦但是希望要跟行政院去溝通本席要在此宣告AI的科研需要人才需要產業才有辦法應用最後我們當然同步要來討論安全\n\n25\n00:08:40,077 --> 00:08:44,741\n但是現在台灣的AI研發完全就還在要加速的時候結果您來我們的辦公室做討論您提到這樣子的一個規劃的做法是要讓速發部來畫紅線要對人權保障我們不反對這件事情但是我們真正要發展的根本都還沒做我們現在已經被人家批評我們的軟硬不平衡都是硬體產業\n\n26\n00:09:05,220 --> 00:09:11,722\n我們的AI為什麼沒有產業就是沒有足夠的人才沒有足夠的科研結果我們現在來做這樣的一個轉換老實說我真的認為對台灣的AI的發展是非常非常危險我就在此提出這個我們之後還有很長的時間討論今天時間有限我想我還要再來談沒有電力\n\n27\n00:09:26,147 --> 00:09:39,762\n就沒有AI所以我想今天還有一個議題要請教您2025年1月8號舉辦行政院2025科技顧問會議當中有強調減碳政策要考量總能源的需求及預期2050年少5000億度的電力需求\n\n28\n00:09:43,506 --> 00:10:06,420\n務實探討提前佈局建議碳費收益用於支持加速減碳的低碳能源研究發展請問主委會議結論提及的碳費收益用於支持低碳能源的研究發展其中低碳能源包不包含核能核能的相關研究能否適用於碳費收益的應用\n\n29\n00:10:08,599 --> 00:10:26,621\n第一就是這個碳費收益的應用我們在這個行政科技顧問會議的結論其實我們的環境部也有參與所以他們也有接到相關的訊息會議第二就是說我們所有的捷徑能源將來都會列為我們在發展的過程當中最適用\n\n30\n00:10:27,862 --> 00:10:55,529\n都是可以討論的選項都可以但是它的條件就是要安全我們得到社會人民的共識這樣子報告主委事實上核能就是低碳能源接下來核能預計拿多少比例的經費跟風電光電拿到的資源希望不要大小眼全世界都在研究核電根據氣候變遷因應法有規定碳費的收入要納入溫室氣體管理機間的應用\n\n31\n00:10:57,509 --> 00:11:17,542\n我們也幫您看過了這個基金對用途的相關規定不外乎執行各種碳排檢量的工作而碳排檢量有很多種AI有可能可以來幫助這件事情包含資料數位化包含能源管理的優化包含幫助產業優化能源的使用效率幫助再生能源的發電效率提升等等\n\n32\n00:11:18,422 --> 00:11:45,527\n由於AI對電力真的有非常大量的需求所以我們一邊可能要節省我們可能還是一邊要做新的能源的探索不管是既有核能的演繹重啟或者新核能的導入我們希望主委長自學AI創新內閣主委您在科技整體來講扮演的部會這個角色非常非常的重要也應該要非常非常的科學所以我最後希望對您有兩點期許第一點\n\n33\n00:11:48,191 --> 00:12:13,703\n我希望能夠這個國科會身為低碳能源的核能相關研究應用的一個非常重要的主管機關千萬不要受到非核家園神主牌的干擾我們有看到美國上個月也有新技術的突破2月26號有技術突破可以用核廢料來發電這樣子的一些新的做法包含更安全的核能我相信國科會應該要讓更多的研究人員來投入第二點\n\n34\n00:12:14,463 --> 00:12:24,370\nAI的耗能呢加上碳排的這個能源結構也有可能會造成一些影響所以希望國科會去思考AI對減碳這件事情能做到什麼樣的幫助我們能不能用更低耗能的方式來研發能源希望我們從這個角度去看呢我們今年度開增的碳費就也許是一個非常適合的財源希望主委能夠代替我們全國的科研的同仁好好的溝通如果有需要本席也可以從旁協助可以嗎\n\n35\n00:12:43,765 --> 00:12:50,267\n謝謝委員好好謝謝葛如君委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t17661\t好 謝謝代理召委有請國科會吳承文主委有請吳主委各位好主委好 主委早安\n22579\t47672\t比AI還聰明主委早安今天是本會期第一次的輪值召委第一個議程立刻就來安排國科會來做業務報告也相信您可以看到本席對於科技發展真的非常重視但是不曉得主委對我國的科技發展是不是也能夠持續的發出同等的重視剛剛我看了你們的業務報告非常精彩\n48092\t55335\t有提到很多的國際合作這一點我覺得非常非常的好也看到了非常多的副主委都在這樣的國際交流當中出現那剛剛林委員有提到的這個兵役的問題我確實真的覺得我們要趕快參考南韓在重點科技發展產業要把這些人才可以留下來\n65518\t81276\t像我們有一個非常好的計畫叫Taiwan LLM裡面有一個非常好的研究員叫林彥廷他現在就去服兵役了那當然你說四個月說短不短但接下來有可能都會變成一年這個對AI來講四個月可能是四個世紀\n81957\t100637\t一年很可能是一個好幾個世代的迭代希望主委可以評估一下盡快看我們能怎麼樣來照顧這些人才那我們今天檢視我們國歌會的業務報告我覺得還是想要來確認一下主委認為我們台灣的這個AI科研算完成了嗎\n102821\t120098\t永遠不會完成沒錯嘛很好您的答案非常好包含我們的台德的計畫也一直都還在持續強化當中這個目前我們引頸期盼13B好像也還在做最後的確認當然很可能有很多原因啦包含資料啦等等\n121380\t144437\t但是我想我們看到您的報告裡面其實我們今天的業務報告的內容可以看到通篇著重在AI產業化凡提及AI必說產業想請教一下主委你到底是忘了AI現在正處在您剛剛所提到的科研根本就還沒有完成的階段還是害怕想起來在科研領域當中AI是最重要的項目\n145037\t163677\t一下子講AI產業化一下講產業AI化您是有一個非常重要的重點是AI科技的研發這是您的主責真的不要再來這個題說要甩鍋給速發部我想根據本席所知也跟您交流過上個禮拜五呢速發部跟國科會之間發生了一件大事\n164338\t179306\t也許有很多國人或者也許在座的行政官員我都不確定你們清不清楚在行政院的強勢主導之下人工智慧基本法你們辛辛苦苦提出來這個草案跟規劃可以說是我們人工智慧發展的基本憲法\n180406\t195857\t關乎了人工智慧未來的整體走向包含科技的研發結果行政院一聲令下粗暴的做成這樣的決定把AI人工智慧的這樣的一個觀點發展的主導權以及不管是方方面面的這個破壞的這個部分\n197878\t219584\t從國科會主委您的手中奪走轉交給速發部想請教一下主委您對於行政院院長直接下達指令將AI基本法的主管機關由國科會你們擬定草案現在整件事情要移交給速發部國科會是不是有在黨政會議上表達您的意見或者抗議\n220564\t245768\t報告委員這個在行政院討論的時候我是有參與那還有速發部的黃部長以及林政委、劉政委我們是共同認為接下來AI基本法進到我們要實施的階段以後一定會碰到很多應用上的這個層面那應用的部分是速發部在主政所以包含這個爭議性的問題產業發展的問題都是速發部的主政範圍\n249509\t263415\t所以我剛剛問你嘛AI科研完成了沒你根本台灣還沒有發展科研人才也不夠你現在要說來做應用那我問主委剛剛我都理解請問要移交到速發部誰提出來的是共同討論的\n267692\t282549\t我想這個文字上您既然在微笑我就不逼問了事實上您這個甩鍋的動作我不管這個鍋子是誰叫你甩的但實際上我是替在場的所有的國歌會的這些同仁報不平同時也對台灣的這個AI科研報不平\n286773\t304112\t我們研議了一年結果呢我們整個AI的科研整個AI的基本法的這個所謂的根本大法呢包含了非常多的元素就這樣丟給速發部這是你們交給全民的答案嗎今天呢我們算了一下恰巧是主委您上任第三百天\n304873\t327945\t不曉得主委是不是因為業務繁忙忘記了國科會業務職長本席幫您複習一下根據國科會技術委員會組織法第二條第四以及第五款重大科技研發計畫及資源學術研究之推動這是第四款第五款產業前瞻技術研發與學員創新政策之綜合規劃協調及推動\n330146\t358405\t這都是你們的職長業務啊這難道不屬於AI嗎這跟AI科技研發沒有關係嗎結果呢為什麼國科院主委就任由我們的行政院您剛剛這麼尷尬的微笑說共同討論還不願意講誰先提出來的這個科學嗎自我閹割把行政院呢將人工智慧切割給整塊切給書發部的主管一語不發本席其實曾經期待主委您兼任科技政委\n360885\t375949\t1965億的科技預算我們剛剛看到了還有包含3000億的這個所謂的AI晶片的計畫然後我們今年事實上當時我們是希望您可以做美國有AI沙皇我們也希望有AI沙皇早一點來推動這些東西結果我們發現該不會有人想把您變成拿錢不辦事的AI太上皇其實我們的這個資料也已經表示了\n385771\t405416\t其實國科會投入AI科研的預算52億今年您在這個總質詢也提到了整個部會今年度增加的預算高達120幾到130億相較之下速發部的本部和資安署都跟我們表示今年度沒有編列AI研發預算是沒有\n406356\t434199\t只有產業署呢勉強編列5.9億跟數位產業研發相關的以預算規模來看國科會您就是他們的10倍啊老實說很可能還要100倍才夠那接下來我們AI科研的責任卻完全甩鍋給速發部我剛剛已經提過了沒有人才沒有研發你怎麼去提應用你是要應用美國人的東西要應用哪些其他外部的人的東西嗎事實上我們希望可以提醒您\n435325\t455700\t我們現在要做的真的是科研你們不要把這種畫紅線的這種機制說這是AI最重要的點是不是可以請主委回覆一下你是否同意既然你說那AI基本法都交給他們做啦那52億的AI科研預算要不要就交給速發部來主導\n458321\t475348\t報告委員剛剛委員提到說國會要負責AI的科研這個才是重點我非常同意這一點就是因為這個樣子接下來AI基本法我們請數學部來做主政的單位我要全心來發展我們AI的研究\n475968\t497099\t那這個AI的研究除了我們編列在各個學術處都有這個相關的預算之外我們也會委請中研研究院也要來加強這一塊所以就是不同意嘛是不是AI科研還是要在國科會嘛在國科會AI科研在國科會但是AI基本法的主政將來牽涉到應用所以一定是很多的這個產業的問題報告主委我們認為這樣子有錢無責在研發的部分\n504122\t516173\t老實說這真的會變成AI太上華不是您願意的也許啦但是希望要跟行政院去溝通本席要在此宣告AI的科研需要人才需要產業才有辦法應用最後我們當然同步要來討論安全\n520077\t524741\t但是現在台灣的AI研發完全就還在要加速的時候結果您來我們的辦公室做討論您提到這樣子的一個規劃的做法是要讓速發部來畫紅線要對人權保障我們不反對這件事情但是我們真正要發展的根本都還沒做我們現在已經被人家批評我們的軟硬不平衡都是硬體產業\n545220\t551722\t我們的AI為什麼沒有產業就是沒有足夠的人才沒有足夠的科研結果我們現在來做這樣的一個轉換老實說我真的認為對台灣的AI的發展是非常非常危險我就在此提出這個我們之後還有很長的時間討論今天時間有限我想我還要再來談沒有電力\n566147\t579762\t就沒有AI所以我想今天還有一個議題要請教您2025年1月8號舉辦行政院2025科技顧問會議當中有強調減碳政策要考量總能源的需求及預期2050年少5000億度的電力需求\n583506\t606420\t務實探討提前佈局建議碳費收益用於支持加速減碳的低碳能源研究發展請問主委會議結論提及的碳費收益用於支持低碳能源的研究發展其中低碳能源包不包含核能核能的相關研究能否適用於碳費收益的應用\n608599\t626621\t第一就是這個碳費收益的應用我們在這個行政科技顧問會議的結論其實我們的環境部也有參與所以他們也有接到相關的訊息會議第二就是說我們所有的捷徑能源將來都會列為我們在發展的過程當中最適用\n627862\t655529\t都是可以討論的選項都可以但是它的條件就是要安全我們得到社會人民的共識這樣子報告主委事實上核能就是低碳能源接下來核能預計拿多少比例的經費跟風電光電拿到的資源希望不要大小眼全世界都在研究核電根據氣候變遷因應法有規定碳費的收入要納入溫室氣體管理機間的應用\n657509\t677542\t我們也幫您看過了這個基金對用途的相關規定不外乎執行各種碳排檢量的工作而碳排檢量有很多種AI有可能可以來幫助這件事情包含資料數位化包含能源管理的優化包含幫助產業優化能源的使用效率幫助再生能源的發電效率提升等等\n678422\t705527\t由於AI對電力真的有非常大量的需求所以我們一邊可能要節省我們可能還是一邊要做新的能源的探索不管是既有核能的演繹重啟或者新核能的導入我們希望主委長自學AI創新內閣主委您在科技整體來講扮演的部會這個角色非常非常的重要也應該要非常非常的科學所以我最後希望對您有兩點期許第一點\n708191\t733703\t我希望能夠這個國科會身為低碳能源的核能相關研究應用的一個非常重要的主管機關千萬不要受到非核家園神主牌的干擾我們有看到美國上個月也有新技術的突破2月26號有技術突破可以用核廢料來發電這樣子的一些新的做法包含更安全的核能我相信國科會應該要讓更多的研究人員來投入第二點\n734463\t744370\tAI的耗能呢加上碳排的這個能源結構也有可能會造成一些影響所以希望國科會去思考AI對減碳這件事情能做到什麼樣的幫助我們能不能用更低耗能的方式來研發能源希望我們從這個角度去看呢我們今年度開增的碳費就也許是一個非常適合的財源希望主委能夠代替我們全國的科研的同仁好好的溝通如果有需要本席也可以從旁協助可以嗎\n763765\t770267\t謝謝委員好好謝謝葛如君委員\n","txt":"好 謝謝代理召委有請國科會吳承文主委有請吳主委各位好主委好 主委早安\n比AI還聰明主委早安今天是本會期第一次的輪值召委第一個議程立刻就來安排國科會來做業務報告也相信您可以看到本席對於科技發展真的非常重視但是不曉得主委對我國的科技發展是不是也能夠持續的發出同等的重視剛剛我看了你們的業務報告非常精彩\n有提到很多的國際合作這一點我覺得非常非常的好也看到了非常多的副主委都在這樣的國際交流當中出現那剛剛林委員有提到的這個兵役的問題我確實真的覺得我們要趕快參考南韓在重點科技發展產業要把這些人才可以留下來\n像我們有一個非常好的計畫叫Taiwan LLM裡面有一個非常好的研究員叫林彥廷他現在就去服兵役了那當然你說四個月說短不短但接下來有可能都會變成一年這個對AI來講四個月可能是四個世紀\n一年很可能是一個好幾個世代的迭代希望主委可以評估一下盡快看我們能怎麼樣來照顧這些人才那我們今天檢視我們國歌會的業務報告我覺得還是想要來確認一下主委認為我們台灣的這個AI科研算完成了嗎\n永遠不會完成沒錯嘛很好您的答案非常好包含我們的台德的計畫也一直都還在持續強化當中這個目前我們引頸期盼13B好像也還在做最後的確認當然很可能有很多原因啦包含資料啦等等\n但是我想我們看到您的報告裡面其實我們今天的業務報告的內容可以看到通篇著重在AI產業化凡提及AI必說產業想請教一下主委你到底是忘了AI現在正處在您剛剛所提到的科研根本就還沒有完成的階段還是害怕想起來在科研領域當中AI是最重要的項目\n一下子講AI產業化一下講產業AI化您是有一個非常重要的重點是AI科技的研發這是您的主責真的不要再來這個題說要甩鍋給速發部我想根據本席所知也跟您交流過上個禮拜五呢速發部跟國科會之間發生了一件大事\n也許有很多國人或者也許在座的行政官員我都不確定你們清不清楚在行政院的強勢主導之下人工智慧基本法你們辛辛苦苦提出來這個草案跟規劃可以說是我們人工智慧發展的基本憲法\n關乎了人工智慧未來的整體走向包含科技的研發結果行政院一聲令下粗暴的做成這樣的決定把AI人工智慧的這樣的一個觀點發展的主導權以及不管是方方面面的這個破壞的這個部分\n從國科會主委您的手中奪走轉交給速發部想請教一下主委您對於行政院院長直接下達指令將AI基本法的主管機關由國科會你們擬定草案現在整件事情要移交給速發部國科會是不是有在黨政會議上表達您的意見或者抗議\n報告委員這個在行政院討論的時候我是有參與那還有速發部的黃部長以及林政委、劉政委我們是共同認為接下來AI基本法進到我們要實施的階段以後一定會碰到很多應用上的這個層面那應用的部分是速發部在主政所以包含這個爭議性的問題產業發展的問題都是速發部的主政範圍\n所以我剛剛問你嘛AI科研完成了沒你根本台灣還沒有發展科研人才也不夠你現在要說來做應用那我問主委剛剛我都理解請問要移交到速發部誰提出來的是共同討論的\n我想這個文字上您既然在微笑我就不逼問了事實上您這個甩鍋的動作我不管這個鍋子是誰叫你甩的但實際上我是替在場的所有的國歌會的這些同仁報不平同時也對台灣的這個AI科研報不平\n我們研議了一年結果呢我們整個AI的科研整個AI的基本法的這個所謂的根本大法呢包含了非常多的元素就這樣丟給速發部這是你們交給全民的答案嗎今天呢我們算了一下恰巧是主委您上任第三百天\n不曉得主委是不是因為業務繁忙忘記了國科會業務職長本席幫您複習一下根據國科會技術委員會組織法第二條第四以及第五款重大科技研發計畫及資源學術研究之推動這是第四款第五款產業前瞻技術研發與學員創新政策之綜合規劃協調及推動\n這都是你們的職長業務啊這難道不屬於AI嗎這跟AI科技研發沒有關係嗎結果呢為什麼國科院主委就任由我們的行政院您剛剛這麼尷尬的微笑說共同討論還不願意講誰先提出來的這個科學嗎自我閹割把行政院呢將人工智慧切割給整塊切給書發部的主管一語不發本席其實曾經期待主委您兼任科技政委\n1965億的科技預算我們剛剛看到了還有包含3000億的這個所謂的AI晶片的計畫然後我們今年事實上當時我們是希望您可以做美國有AI沙皇我們也希望有AI沙皇早一點來推動這些東西結果我們發現該不會有人想把您變成拿錢不辦事的AI太上皇其實我們的這個資料也已經表示了\n其實國科會投入AI科研的預算52億今年您在這個總質詢也提到了整個部會今年度增加的預算高達120幾到130億相較之下速發部的本部和資安署都跟我們表示今年度沒有編列AI研發預算是沒有\n只有產業署呢勉強編列5.9億跟數位產業研發相關的以預算規模來看國科會您就是他們的10倍啊老實說很可能還要100倍才夠那接下來我們AI科研的責任卻完全甩鍋給速發部我剛剛已經提過了沒有人才沒有研發你怎麼去提應用你是要應用美國人的東西要應用哪些其他外部的人的東西嗎事實上我們希望可以提醒您\n我們現在要做的真的是科研你們不要把這種畫紅線的這種機制說這是AI最重要的點是不是可以請主委回覆一下你是否同意既然你說那AI基本法都交給他們做啦那52億的AI科研預算要不要就交給速發部來主導\n報告委員剛剛委員提到說國會要負責AI的科研這個才是重點我非常同意這一點就是因為這個樣子接下來AI基本法我們請數學部來做主政的單位我要全心來發展我們AI的研究\n那這個AI的研究除了我們編列在各個學術處都有這個相關的預算之外我們也會委請中研研究院也要來加強這一塊所以就是不同意嘛是不是AI科研還是要在國科會嘛在國科會AI科研在國科會但是AI基本法的主政將來牽涉到應用所以一定是很多的這個產業的問題報告主委我們認為這樣子有錢無責在研發的部分\n老實說這真的會變成AI太上華不是您願意的也許啦但是希望要跟行政院去溝通本席要在此宣告AI的科研需要人才需要產業才有辦法應用最後我們當然同步要來討論安全\n但是現在台灣的AI研發完全就還在要加速的時候結果您來我們的辦公室做討論您提到這樣子的一個規劃的做法是要讓速發部來畫紅線要對人權保障我們不反對這件事情但是我們真正要發展的根本都還沒做我們現在已經被人家批評我們的軟硬不平衡都是硬體產業\n我們的AI為什麼沒有產業就是沒有足夠的人才沒有足夠的科研結果我們現在來做這樣的一個轉換老實說我真的認為對台灣的AI的發展是非常非常危險我就在此提出這個我們之後還有很長的時間討論今天時間有限我想我還要再來談沒有電力\n就沒有AI所以我想今天還有一個議題要請教您2025年1月8號舉辦行政院2025科技顧問會議當中有強調減碳政策要考量總能源的需求及預期2050年少5000億度的電力需求\n務實探討提前佈局建議碳費收益用於支持加速減碳的低碳能源研究發展請問主委會議結論提及的碳費收益用於支持低碳能源的研究發展其中低碳能源包不包含核能核能的相關研究能否適用於碳費收益的應用\n第一就是這個碳費收益的應用我們在這個行政科技顧問會議的結論其實我們的環境部也有參與所以他們也有接到相關的訊息會議第二就是說我們所有的捷徑能源將來都會列為我們在發展的過程當中最適用\n都是可以討論的選項都可以但是它的條件就是要安全我們得到社會人民的共識這樣子報告主委事實上核能就是低碳能源接下來核能預計拿多少比例的經費跟風電光電拿到的資源希望不要大小眼全世界都在研究核電根據氣候變遷因應法有規定碳費的收入要納入溫室氣體管理機間的應用\n我們也幫您看過了這個基金對用途的相關規定不外乎執行各種碳排檢量的工作而碳排檢量有很多種AI有可能可以來幫助這件事情包含資料數位化包含能源管理的優化包含幫助產業優化能源的使用效率幫助再生能源的發電效率提升等等\n由於AI對電力真的有非常大量的需求所以我們一邊可能要節省我們可能還是一邊要做新的能源的探索不管是既有核能的演繹重啟或者新核能的導入我們希望主委長自學AI創新內閣主委您在科技整體來講扮演的部會這個角色非常非常的重要也應該要非常非常的科學所以我最後希望對您有兩點期許第一點\n我希望能夠這個國科會身為低碳能源的核能相關研究應用的一個非常重要的主管機關千萬不要受到非核家園神主牌的干擾我們有看到美國上個月也有新技術的突破2月26號有技術突破可以用核廢料來發電這樣子的一些新的做法包含更安全的核能我相信國科會應該要讓更多的研究人員來投入第二點\nAI的耗能呢加上碳排的這個能源結構也有可能會造成一些影響所以希望國科會去思考AI對減碳這件事情能做到什麼樣的幫助我們能不能用更低耗能的方式來研發能源希望我們從這個角度去看呢我們今年度開增的碳費就也許是一個非常適合的財源希望主委能夠代替我們全國的科研的同仁好好的溝通如果有需要本席也可以從旁協助可以嗎\n謝謝委員好好謝謝葛如君委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:17.661\n好謝謝代理召委有請國科會吳承文主委有請吳主委各位好主委好主委早安\n\n00:22.579 --> 00:47.672\n比AI還聰明主委早安今天是本會期第一次的輪值召委第一個議程立刻就來安排國科會來做業務報告也相信您可以看到本席對於科技發展真的非常重視但是不曉得主委對我國的科技發展是不是也能夠持續的發出同等的重視剛剛我看了你們的業務報告非常精彩\n\n00:48.092 --> 00:55.335\n有提到很多的國際合作這一點我覺得非常非常的好也看到了非常多的副主委都在這樣的國際交流當中出現那剛剛林委員有提到的這個兵役的問題我確實真的覺得我們要趕快參考南韓在重點科技發展產業要把這些人才可以留下來\n\n01:05.518 --> 01:21.276\n像我們有一個非常好的計畫叫TaiwanLLM裡面有一個非常好的研究員叫林彥廷他現在就去服兵役了那當然你說四個月說短不短但接下來有可能都會變成一年這個對AI來講四個月可能是四個世紀\n\n01:21.957 --> 01:40.637\n一年很可能是一個好幾個世代的迭代希望主委可以評估一下盡快看我們能怎麼樣來照顧這些人才那我們今天檢視我們國歌會的業務報告我覺得還是想要來確認一下主委認為我們台灣的這個AI科研算完成了嗎\n\n01:42.821 --> 02:00.098\n永遠不會完成沒錯嘛很好您的答案非常好包含我們的台德的計畫也一直都還在持續強化當中這個目前我們引頸期盼13B好像也還在做最後的確認當然很可能有很多原因啦包含資料啦等等\n\n02:01.380 --> 02:24.437\n但是我想我們看到您的報告裡面其實我們今天的業務報告的內容可以看到通篇著重在AI產業化凡提及AI必說產業想請教一下主委你到底是忘了AI現在正處在您剛剛所提到的科研根本就還沒有完成的階段還是害怕想起來在科研領域當中AI是最重要的項目\n\n02:25.037 --> 02:43.677\n一下子講AI產業化一下講產業AI化您是有一個非常重要的重點是AI科技的研發這是您的主責真的不要再來這個題說要甩鍋給速發部我想根據本席所知也跟您交流過上個禮拜五呢速發部跟國科會之間發生了一件大事\n\n02:44.338 --> 02:59.306\n也許有很多國人或者也許在座的行政官員我都不確定你們清不清楚在行政院的強勢主導之下人工智慧基本法你們辛辛苦苦提出來這個草案跟規劃可以說是我們人工智慧發展的基本憲法\n\n03:00.406 --> 03:15.857\n關乎了人工智慧未來的整體走向包含科技的研發結果行政院一聲令下粗暴的做成這樣的決定把AI人工智慧的這樣的一個觀點發展的主導權以及不管是方方面面的這個破壞的這個部分\n\n03:17.878 --> 03:39.584\n從國科會主委您的手中奪走轉交給速發部想請教一下主委您對於行政院院長直接下達指令將AI基本法的主管機關由國科會你們擬定草案現在整件事情要移交給速發部國科會是不是有在黨政會議上表達您的意見或者抗議\n\n03:40.564 --> 04:05.768\n報告委員這個在行政院討論的時候我是有參與那還有速發部的黃部長以及林政委、劉政委我們是共同認為接下來AI基本法進到我們要實施的階段以後一定會碰到很多應用上的這個層面那應用的部分是速發部在主政所以包含這個爭議性的問題產業發展的問題都是速發部的主政範圍\n\n04:09.509 --> 04:23.415\n所以我剛剛問你嘛AI科研完成了沒你根本台灣還沒有發展科研人才也不夠你現在要說來做應用那我問主委剛剛我都理解請問要移交到速發部誰提出來的是共同討論的\n\n04:27.692 --> 04:42.549\n我想這個文字上您既然在微笑我就不逼問了事實上您這個甩鍋的動作我不管這個鍋子是誰叫你甩的但實際上我是替在場的所有的國歌會的這些同仁報不平同時也對台灣的這個AI科研報不平\n\n04:46.773 --> 05:04.112\n我們研議了一年結果呢我們整個AI的科研整個AI的基本法的這個所謂的根本大法呢包含了非常多的元素就這樣丟給速發部這是你們交給全民的答案嗎今天呢我們算了一下恰巧是主委您上任第三百天\n\n05:04.873 --> 05:27.945\n不曉得主委是不是因為業務繁忙忘記了國科會業務職長本席幫您複習一下根據國科會技術委員會組織法第二條第四以及第五款重大科技研發計畫及資源學術研究之推動這是第四款第五款產業前瞻技術研發與學員創新政策之綜合規劃協調及推動\n\n05:30.146 --> 05:58.405\n這都是你們的職長業務啊這難道不屬於AI嗎這跟AI科技研發沒有關係嗎結果呢為什麼國科院主委就任由我們的行政院您剛剛這麼尷尬的微笑說共同討論還不願意講誰先提出來的這個科學嗎自我閹割把行政院呢將人工智慧切割給整塊切給書發部的主管一語不發本席其實曾經期待主委您兼任科技政委\n\n06:00.885 --> 06:15.949\n1965億的科技預算我們剛剛看到了還有包含3000億的這個所謂的AI晶片的計畫然後我們今年事實上當時我們是希望您可以做美國有AI沙皇我們也希望有AI沙皇早一點來推動這些東西結果我們發現該不會有人想把您變成拿錢不辦事的AI太上皇其實我們的這個資料也已經表示了\n\n06:25.771 --> 06:45.416\n其實國科會投入AI科研的預算52億今年您在這個總質詢也提到了整個部會今年度增加的預算高達120幾到130億相較之下速發部的本部和資安署都跟我們表示今年度沒有編列AI研發預算是沒有\n\n06:46.356 --> 07:14.199\n只有產業署呢勉強編列5.9億跟數位產業研發相關的以預算規模來看國科會您就是他們的10倍啊老實說很可能還要100倍才夠那接下來我們AI科研的責任卻完全甩鍋給速發部我剛剛已經提過了沒有人才沒有研發你怎麼去提應用你是要應用美國人的東西要應用哪些其他外部的人的東西嗎事實上我們希望可以提醒您\n\n07:15.325 --> 07:35.700\n我們現在要做的真的是科研你們不要把這種畫紅線的這種機制說這是AI最重要的點是不是可以請主委回覆一下你是否同意既然你說那AI基本法都交給他們做啦那52億的AI科研預算要不要就交給速發部來主導\n\n07:38.321 --> 07:55.348\n報告委員剛剛委員提到說國會要負責AI的科研這個才是重點我非常同意這一點就是因為這個樣子接下來AI基本法我們請數學部來做主政的單位我要全心來發展我們AI的研究\n\n07:55.968 --> 08:17.099\n那這個AI的研究除了我們編列在各個學術處都有這個相關的預算之外我們也會委請中研研究院也要來加強這一塊所以就是不同意嘛是不是AI科研還是要在國科會嘛在國科會AI科研在國科會但是AI基本法的主政將來牽涉到應用所以一定是很多的這個產業的問題報告主委我們認為這樣子有錢無責在研發的部分\n\n08:24.122 --> 08:36.173\n老實說這真的會變成AI太上華不是您願意的也許啦但是希望要跟行政院去溝通本席要在此宣告AI的科研需要人才需要產業才有辦法應用最後我們當然同步要來討論安全\n\n08:40.077 --> 08:44.741\n但是現在台灣的AI研發完全就還在要加速的時候結果您來我們的辦公室做討論您提到這樣子的一個規劃的做法是要讓速發部來畫紅線要對人權保障我們不反對這件事情但是我們真正要發展的根本都還沒做我們現在已經被人家批評我們的軟硬不平衡都是硬體產業\n\n09:05.220 --> 09:11.722\n我們的AI為什麼沒有產業就是沒有足夠的人才沒有足夠的科研結果我們現在來做這樣的一個轉換老實說我真的認為對台灣的AI的發展是非常非常危險我就在此提出這個我們之後還有很長的時間討論今天時間有限我想我還要再來談沒有電力\n\n09:26.147 --> 09:39.762\n就沒有AI所以我想今天還有一個議題要請教您2025年1月8號舉辦行政院2025科技顧問會議當中有強調減碳政策要考量總能源的需求及預期2050年少5000億度的電力需求\n\n09:43.506 --> 10:06.420\n務實探討提前佈局建議碳費收益用於支持加速減碳的低碳能源研究發展請問主委會議結論提及的碳費收益用於支持低碳能源的研究發展其中低碳能源包不包含核能核能的相關研究能否適用於碳費收益的應用\n\n10:08.599 --> 10:26.621\n第一就是這個碳費收益的應用我們在這個行政科技顧問會議的結論其實我們的環境部也有參與所以他們也有接到相關的訊息會議第二就是說我們所有的捷徑能源將來都會列為我們在發展的過程當中最適用\n\n10:27.862 --> 10:55.529\n都是可以討論的選項都可以但是它的條件就是要安全我們得到社會人民的共識這樣子報告主委事實上核能就是低碳能源接下來核能預計拿多少比例的經費跟風電光電拿到的資源希望不要大小眼全世界都在研究核電根據氣候變遷因應法有規定碳費的收入要納入溫室氣體管理機間的應用\n\n10:57.509 --> 11:17.542\n我們也幫您看過了這個基金對用途的相關規定不外乎執行各種碳排檢量的工作而碳排檢量有很多種AI有可能可以來幫助這件事情包含資料數位化包含能源管理的優化包含幫助產業優化能源的使用效率幫助再生能源的發電效率提升等等\n\n11:18.422 --> 11:45.527\n由於AI對電力真的有非常大量的需求所以我們一邊可能要節省我們可能還是一邊要做新的能源的探索不管是既有核能的演繹重啟或者新核能的導入我們希望主委長自學AI創新內閣主委您在科技整體來講扮演的部會這個角色非常非常的重要也應該要非常非常的科學所以我最後希望對您有兩點期許第一點\n\n11:48.191 --> 12:13.703\n我希望能夠這個國科會身為低碳能源的核能相關研究應用的一個非常重要的主管機關千萬不要受到非核家園神主牌的干擾我們有看到美國上個月也有新技術的突破2月26號有技術突破可以用核廢料來發電這樣子的一些新的做法包含更安全的核能我相信國科會應該要讓更多的研究人員來投入第二點\n\n12:14.463 --> 12:24.370\nAI的耗能呢加上碳排的這個能源結構也有可能會造成一些影響所以希望國科會去思考AI對減碳這件事情能做到什麼樣的幫助我們能不能用更低耗能的方式來研發能源希望我們從這個角度去看呢我們今年度開增的碳費就也許是一個非常適合的財源希望主委能夠代替我們全國的科研的同仁好好的溝通如果有需要本席也可以從旁協助可以嗎\n\n12:43.765 --> 12:50.267\n謝謝委員好好謝謝葛如君委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":17.661,"text":"好 謝謝代理召委有請國科會吳承文主委有請吳主委各位好主委好 主委早安"},{"start":22.579,"end":47.672,"text":"比AI還聰明主委早安今天是本會期第一次的輪值召委第一個議程立刻就來安排國科會來做業務報告也相信您可以看到本席對於科技發展真的非常重視但是不曉得主委對我國的科技發展是不是也能夠持續的發出同等的重視剛剛我看了你們的業務報告非常精彩"},{"start":48.092,"end":55.335,"text":"有提到很多的國際合作這一點我覺得非常非常的好也看到了非常多的副主委都在這樣的國際交流當中出現那剛剛林委員有提到的這個兵役的問題我確實真的覺得我們要趕快參考南韓在重點科技發展產業要把這些人才可以留下來"},{"start":65.518,"end":81.276,"text":"像我們有一個非常好的計畫叫Taiwan LLM裡面有一個非常好的研究員叫林彥廷他現在就去服兵役了那當然你說四個月說短不短但接下來有可能都會變成一年這個對AI來講四個月可能是四個世紀"},{"start":81.957,"end":100.637,"text":"一年很可能是一個好幾個世代的迭代希望主委可以評估一下盡快看我們能怎麼樣來照顧這些人才那我們今天檢視我們國歌會的業務報告我覺得還是想要來確認一下主委認為我們台灣的這個AI科研算完成了嗎"},{"start":102.821,"end":120.098,"text":"永遠不會完成沒錯嘛很好您的答案非常好包含我們的台德的計畫也一直都還在持續強化當中這個目前我們引頸期盼13B好像也還在做最後的確認當然很可能有很多原因啦包含資料啦等等"},{"start":121.38,"end":144.437,"text":"但是我想我們看到您的報告裡面其實我們今天的業務報告的內容可以看到通篇著重在AI產業化凡提及AI必說產業想請教一下主委你到底是忘了AI現在正處在您剛剛所提到的科研根本就還沒有完成的階段還是害怕想起來在科研領域當中AI是最重要的項目"},{"start":145.037,"end":163.677,"text":"一下子講AI產業化一下講產業AI化您是有一個非常重要的重點是AI科技的研發這是您的主責真的不要再來這個題說要甩鍋給速發部我想根據本席所知也跟您交流過上個禮拜五呢速發部跟國科會之間發生了一件大事"},{"start":164.338,"end":179.306,"text":"也許有很多國人或者也許在座的行政官員我都不確定你們清不清楚在行政院的強勢主導之下人工智慧基本法你們辛辛苦苦提出來這個草案跟規劃可以說是我們人工智慧發展的基本憲法"},{"start":180.406,"end":195.857,"text":"關乎了人工智慧未來的整體走向包含科技的研發結果行政院一聲令下粗暴的做成這樣的決定把AI人工智慧的這樣的一個觀點發展的主導權以及不管是方方面面的這個破壞的這個部分"},{"start":197.878,"end":219.584,"text":"從國科會主委您的手中奪走轉交給速發部想請教一下主委您對於行政院院長直接下達指令將AI基本法的主管機關由國科會你們擬定草案現在整件事情要移交給速發部國科會是不是有在黨政會議上表達您的意見或者抗議"},{"start":220.564,"end":245.768,"text":"報告委員這個在行政院討論的時候我是有參與那還有速發部的黃部長以及林政委、劉政委我們是共同認為接下來AI基本法進到我們要實施的階段以後一定會碰到很多應用上的這個層面那應用的部分是速發部在主政所以包含這個爭議性的問題產業發展的問題都是速發部的主政範圍"},{"start":249.509,"end":263.415,"text":"所以我剛剛問你嘛AI科研完成了沒你根本台灣還沒有發展科研人才也不夠你現在要說來做應用那我問主委剛剛我都理解請問要移交到速發部誰提出來的是共同討論的"},{"start":267.692,"end":282.549,"text":"我想這個文字上您既然在微笑我就不逼問了事實上您這個甩鍋的動作我不管這個鍋子是誰叫你甩的但實際上我是替在場的所有的國歌會的這些同仁報不平同時也對台灣的這個AI科研報不平"},{"start":286.773,"end":304.112,"text":"我們研議了一年結果呢我們整個AI的科研整個AI的基本法的這個所謂的根本大法呢包含了非常多的元素就這樣丟給速發部這是你們交給全民的答案嗎今天呢我們算了一下恰巧是主委您上任第三百天"},{"start":304.873,"end":327.945,"text":"不曉得主委是不是因為業務繁忙忘記了國科會業務職長本席幫您複習一下根據國科會技術委員會組織法第二條第四以及第五款重大科技研發計畫及資源學術研究之推動這是第四款第五款產業前瞻技術研發與學員創新政策之綜合規劃協調及推動"},{"start":330.146,"end":358.405,"text":"這都是你們的職長業務啊這難道不屬於AI嗎這跟AI科技研發沒有關係嗎結果呢為什麼國科院主委就任由我們的行政院您剛剛這麼尷尬的微笑說共同討論還不願意講誰先提出來的這個科學嗎自我閹割把行政院呢將人工智慧切割給整塊切給書發部的主管一語不發本席其實曾經期待主委您兼任科技政委"},{"start":360.885,"end":375.949,"text":"1965億的科技預算我們剛剛看到了還有包含3000億的這個所謂的AI晶片的計畫然後我們今年事實上當時我們是希望您可以做美國有AI沙皇我們也希望有AI沙皇早一點來推動這些東西結果我們發現該不會有人想把您變成拿錢不辦事的AI太上皇其實我們的這個資料也已經表示了"},{"start":385.771,"end":405.416,"text":"其實國科會投入AI科研的預算52億今年您在這個總質詢也提到了整個部會今年度增加的預算高達120幾到130億相較之下速發部的本部和資安署都跟我們表示今年度沒有編列AI研發預算是沒有"},{"start":406.356,"end":434.199,"text":"只有產業署呢勉強編列5.9億跟數位產業研發相關的以預算規模來看國科會您就是他們的10倍啊老實說很可能還要100倍才夠那接下來我們AI科研的責任卻完全甩鍋給速發部我剛剛已經提過了沒有人才沒有研發你怎麼去提應用你是要應用美國人的東西要應用哪些其他外部的人的東西嗎事實上我們希望可以提醒您"},{"start":435.325,"end":455.7,"text":"我們現在要做的真的是科研你們不要把這種畫紅線的這種機制說這是AI最重要的點是不是可以請主委回覆一下你是否同意既然你說那AI基本法都交給他們做啦那52億的AI科研預算要不要就交給速發部來主導"},{"start":458.321,"end":475.348,"text":"報告委員剛剛委員提到說國會要負責AI的科研這個才是重點我非常同意這一點就是因為這個樣子接下來AI基本法我們請數學部來做主政的單位我要全心來發展我們AI的研究"},{"start":475.968,"end":497.099,"text":"那這個AI的研究除了我們編列在各個學術處都有這個相關的預算之外我們也會委請中研研究院也要來加強這一塊所以就是不同意嘛是不是AI科研還是要在國科會嘛在國科會AI科研在國科會但是AI基本法的主政將來牽涉到應用所以一定是很多的這個產業的問題報告主委我們認為這樣子有錢無責在研發的部分"},{"start":504.122,"end":516.173,"text":"老實說這真的會變成AI太上華不是您願意的也許啦但是希望要跟行政院去溝通本席要在此宣告AI的科研需要人才需要產業才有辦法應用最後我們當然同步要來討論安全"},{"start":520.077,"end":524.741,"text":"但是現在台灣的AI研發完全就還在要加速的時候結果您來我們的辦公室做討論您提到這樣子的一個規劃的做法是要讓速發部來畫紅線要對人權保障我們不反對這件事情但是我們真正要發展的根本都還沒做我們現在已經被人家批評我們的軟硬不平衡都是硬體產業"},{"start":545.22,"end":551.722,"text":"我們的AI為什麼沒有產業就是沒有足夠的人才沒有足夠的科研結果我們現在來做這樣的一個轉換老實說我真的認為對台灣的AI的發展是非常非常危險我就在此提出這個我們之後還有很長的時間討論今天時間有限我想我還要再來談沒有電力"},{"start":566.147,"end":579.762,"text":"就沒有AI所以我想今天還有一個議題要請教您2025年1月8號舉辦行政院2025科技顧問會議當中有強調減碳政策要考量總能源的需求及預期2050年少5000億度的電力需求"},{"start":583.506,"end":606.42,"text":"務實探討提前佈局建議碳費收益用於支持加速減碳的低碳能源研究發展請問主委會議結論提及的碳費收益用於支持低碳能源的研究發展其中低碳能源包不包含核能核能的相關研究能否適用於碳費收益的應用"},{"start":608.599,"end":626.621,"text":"第一就是這個碳費收益的應用我們在這個行政科技顧問會議的結論其實我們的環境部也有參與所以他們也有接到相關的訊息會議第二就是說我們所有的捷徑能源將來都會列為我們在發展的過程當中最適用"},{"start":627.862,"end":655.529,"text":"都是可以討論的選項都可以但是它的條件就是要安全我們得到社會人民的共識這樣子報告主委事實上核能就是低碳能源接下來核能預計拿多少比例的經費跟風電光電拿到的資源希望不要大小眼全世界都在研究核電根據氣候變遷因應法有規定碳費的收入要納入溫室氣體管理機間的應用"},{"start":657.509,"end":677.542,"text":"我們也幫您看過了這個基金對用途的相關規定不外乎執行各種碳排檢量的工作而碳排檢量有很多種AI有可能可以來幫助這件事情包含資料數位化包含能源管理的優化包含幫助產業優化能源的使用效率幫助再生能源的發電效率提升等等"},{"start":678.422,"end":705.527,"text":"由於AI對電力真的有非常大量的需求所以我們一邊可能要節省我們可能還是一邊要做新的能源的探索不管是既有核能的演繹重啟或者新核能的導入我們希望主委長自學AI創新內閣主委您在科技整體來講扮演的部會這個角色非常非常的重要也應該要非常非常的科學所以我最後希望對您有兩點期許第一點"},{"start":708.191,"end":733.703,"text":"我希望能夠這個國科會身為低碳能源的核能相關研究應用的一個非常重要的主管機關千萬不要受到非核家園神主牌的干擾我們有看到美國上個月也有新技術的突破2月26號有技術突破可以用核廢料來發電這樣子的一些新的做法包含更安全的核能我相信國科會應該要讓更多的研究人員來投入第二點"},{"start":734.463,"end":744.37,"text":"AI的耗能呢加上碳排的這個能源結構也有可能會造成一些影響所以希望國科會去思考AI對減碳這件事情能做到什麼樣的幫助我們能不能用更低耗能的方式來研發能源希望我們從這個角度去看呢我們今年度開增的碳費就也許是一個非常適合的財源希望主委能夠代替我們全國的科研的同仁好好的溝通如果有需要本席也可以從旁協助可以嗎"},{"start":763.765,"end":770.267,"text":"謝謝委員好好謝謝葛如君委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":218,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（9時50分）好，謝謝代理召委。有請國科會吳誠文主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：葛委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：主委好。主委早安，今天是本席本會期第一次的輪值召委，第一個議程立刻就安排國科會來做業務報告，也相信您可以看到本席對於科技發展真的非常重視，但是不曉得主委對我國的科技發展，是不是也能夠持續地發出同等的重視？剛剛我看了你們的業務報告非常精彩，有提到很多的國際合作，這一點我覺得非常、非常的好，也看到非常多的副主委也都在這樣的國際交流當中出現。剛剛林委員有提到這個兵役的問題，我確實真的覺得我們要趕快參考南韓，在重點科技發展產業要把這些人才可以留下來，像我們有一個非常好的計畫叫Taiwan-LLM，裡面有一個非常好的研究員叫林彥廷，他現在就去服兵役了，當然你說四個月說短不短，但接下來有可能都會變成一年，對AI來講四個月可能是四個世紀，一年很可能是好幾個世代的迭代，希望主委可以評估一下，儘快看我們能怎麼樣來照顧這些人才。我們今天檢視國科會的業務報告，我覺得還是想要來確認一下，主委認為我們臺灣的AI科研算完成了嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：永遠不會完成。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒錯嘛！很好，您的答案非常好，包含我們的TAIDE計畫，也一直都還在持續強化當中，目前我們引頸期盼的13B好像也還在做最後的確認，當然很可能有很多原因包含資料等等。但是我們看到您的報告裡面，其實我們今天業務報告的內容可以看到通篇著重在AI產業化，凡提及AI必說產業。想請教一下主委，你到底是忘了AI現在正處在您剛剛所提到的科研根本就還沒有完成的階段，還是害怕想起來在科研領域當中AI是最重要的項目？一下子講AI產業化、一下講產業AI化。您有一個非常重要的重點是AI科技的研發，這是您的主責，真的不要再說要甩鍋給數發部。根據本席所知，也跟您交流過，上個禮拜五數發部跟國科會之間發生了一件大事，也許有很多國人，或者也許在座的行政官員，我都不確定你們清不清楚。在行政院的強勢主導之下，人工智慧基本法，你們辛辛苦苦提出這個草案跟規劃，可以說是我們人工智慧發展的基本憲法，關乎了人工智慧未來的整體走向，包含科技的研發，結果行政院一聲令下，粗暴的作成這樣的決定，把AI人工智慧這樣的一個觀點、發展的主導權，以及不管是方方面面擘劃的這個部分，從國科會主委您的手中奪走轉交給數發部。想請教一下主委，您對於行政院院長直接下達指令，將AI基本法的主管機關由你們國科會擬定草案，現在整件事情要移交給數發部，國科會是不是有在黨政會議上表達您的意見或者抗議？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，這個在行政院討論的時候，我有參與，還有數發部的黃部長以及林政委、劉政委。"],["葛委員如鈞：是。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們共同認為接下來AI基本法進到要實施的階段，以後一定會碰到很多應用上的層面，應用的部分是數發部在主政，所以包含這個爭議性的問題、產業發展的問題，都是數發部的主政範圍……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝。所以我剛剛問你AI科研完成了沒？"],["吳主任委員誠文：還沒有……"],["葛委員如鈞：臺灣根本還沒有發展科研，人才也不夠，你現在說要來做應用，那我問主委，剛剛我都理解，請問要移交到數發部是誰提出來的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是共同討論的。"],["葛委員如鈞：好啦，您既然在微笑，我就不逼問了啦！事實上您這個甩鍋的動作，我不管這個鍋子是誰叫你甩的，但實際上我是替在場所有國科會的同仁抱不平，同時也對臺灣的AI科研抱不平啦！我們研議了一年，結果我們整個AI的科研、整個AI基本法所謂的根本大法，包含了非常多的元素，就這樣丟給數發部，這是你們交給全民的答案嗎？今天我們算了一下，恰巧是主委您上任第300天，不曉得主委是不是因為業務繁忙，忘記了國科會的業務職掌，本席幫您複習一下。根據國家科學及技術委員會技術委員會組織法第二條第四款以及第五款，第四款是「重大科技研發計畫及支援學術研究之推動」；第五款是「產業前瞻技術研發與學研新創政策之綜合規劃、協調及推動」，這都是你們的職掌業務，這難道不屬於AI嗎？這跟AI科技研發沒有關係嗎？結果，為什麼國科會主委就任由我們的行政院，您剛剛這麼尷尬的微笑說「共同討論」，還不願意講是誰先提出來的，這個科學嗎？自我閹割，對行政院將人工智慧整塊切割給數發部主管，你一語不發。","其實本席曾經期待主委，您兼任科技政委，這筆1,965億的科技預算，我們剛剛看到了，還有包含3,000億這個所謂的AI晶片的計畫，然後呢？我們今年呢？事實上，當時我們是希望您可以做，美國有AI沙皇，我們也希望有AI沙皇，早一點來推動這些東西，結果我們發現，該不會有人想把您變成拿錢不辦事的AI太上皇？其實我們的這個資料也已經表示了，國科會投入AI科研的預算52億，今年您在總質詢也提到整個部會今年度增加的預算高達一百二十幾到130億，相較之下，數發部的本部和資安署都跟我們表示，今年度沒有編列AI研發預算，是「沒有」！只有產業署勉強編列5.9億，是跟數位產業研發相關的，以預算規模來看，國科會就是它們的10倍啊！老實說，很可能還要100倍才夠。接下來我們AI科研的責任卻完全甩鍋給數發部，我剛剛已經提過了，沒有人才、沒有研發，你怎麼去提應用？你是要應用美國人的東西、要應用哪些其他外部人的東西嗎？事實上我們希望可以提醒您，我們現在要做的真的是科研，你們不要把這種劃紅線的機制，說這是AI最重要的點。是不是可以請主委回復一下？您是否同意，既然你說AI基本法都交給他們做了，那52億的AI科研預算，要不要就交給數發部來主導？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，剛剛委員提到說國科會要負責AI的科研，這個才是重點，我非常同意這一點，就是因為這個樣子，接下來AI基本法我們請數發部來做主政的單位。我要全心來發展AI的研究，那這個AI的研究，除了我們編列在各個學術處都有這個相關的預算之外，我們也會委請中央研究院要來加強這一塊。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以你就是不同意嘛，是不是AI科研還是要在國科會？"],["吳主任委員誠文：在國科會，AI科研在國科會，但是AI基本法的主政將來牽涉到應用，所以一定是很多產業的問題，人民的這個……"],["葛委員如鈞：報告主委，我們認為這樣子有錢無責，在研發的部分，老實說這真的會變成AI太上皇，這也許不是您願意的啦！但是希望要跟行政院去溝通，本席要在此宣告AI的科研需要人才、需要產業才有辦法應用，最後我們當然同步要來討論安全，但是現在臺灣的AI研發完全就還在要加速的時候，結果您來我們的辦公室討論，您提到這樣子一個規劃的作法，是要讓數發部來劃紅線，要對人權保障。我們不反對這件事情，但是我們真正要發展的根本都還沒做，我們現在已經被人家批評這個軟硬不平衡，都只有硬體產業。我們的AI為什麼沒有產業？就是沒有足夠的人才、沒有足夠的科研，結果我們現在來做這樣的轉換。老實說，我真的認為對臺灣AI的發展是非常、非常危險，我就在此提出，這個我們之後還有很長的時間討論。","今天時間有限，我想我還要再來談沒有電力就沒有AI，所以今天還有一個議題要請教您，2025年1月8號舉辦行政院2025科技顧問會議，當中有強調減碳政策要考量總能源的需求，及預期2050年少5,000億度的電力需求，務實探討、提前布局，建議碳費收益用於支持加速減碳的低碳能源研究發展。請問主委，會議結論提及的碳費收益用於支持低碳能源的研究發展，其中低碳能源包不包含核能？核能的相關研究能否適用於碳費收益的應用？"],["吳主任委員誠文：第一，有關碳費收益的應用在行政院科技顧問會議的結論，其實我們的環境部也有參與，所以他們也有接到相關的訊息，會研議；第二，所有的潔淨能源將來都會列為我們在發展的過程當中……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以適用？適用核能？"],["吳主任委員誠文：都是可以討論的選項，但是它的條件就是要安全，以及得到社會、人民的共識。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，報告主委，事實上核能就是低碳能源，接下來核能預計拿多少比例的經費，跟風電、光電拿到的資源希望不要大小眼，全世界都在研究核電。根據氣候變遷因應法規定，碳費的收入要納入溫室氣體管理基金的應用，我們也幫您看過了，這個基金對於用途的相關規定不外乎執行各種碳排減量的工作，而碳排減量有很多種，AI有可能可以來幫助這件事情，包含資料數位化、能源管理優化、幫助產業優化能源的使用效率、幫助再生能源的發電效率提升等等。由於AI對電力真的有非常大量的需求，所以我們一邊可能要節省，一邊可能還是要做新的能源的探索，不管是既有核能的延役、重啟或者新核能的導入，我們希望卓院長自詡為AI創新內閣，主委，您的部會在科技整體來講扮演的角色非常非常的重要，也應該要非常非常的科學，所以我最後對您有兩點期許。","第一點，我希望國科會身為低碳能源──核能相關研究與應用的一個非常重要的主管機關，千萬不要受到非核家園神主牌的干擾，我們有看到，美國上個月也有新技術的突破，2月26號有技術突破，可以用核廢料來發電，這樣子的一些新的作法，包含更安全的核能，我相信國科會應該要讓更多的研究人員來投入。第二點，AI的耗能加上碳排的能源結構也有可能會造成一些影響，所以希望國科會去思考AI對減碳這件事情能做到什麼樣的幫助，我們能不能用更低耗能的方式來研發能源？我們從這個角度去看，今年度開徵的碳費也許就是一個非常適合的財源，希望主委能夠代替我們全國的科研同仁好好的溝通，如果有需要，本席也可以從旁協助，可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["葛委員如鈞：好。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞委員。"],["主席（葛委員如鈞）：我們接著繼續進行質詢，有請陳秀寳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","林沛祥","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","葉元之","郭昱晴","范雲","陳培瑜","萬美玲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","林倩綺"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00002"}}}