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{\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"空\", \"start\": 203.489, \"end\": 203.669, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"瓶\", \"start\": 203.669, \"end\": 203.809, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 203.809, \"end\": 203.929, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"危\", \"start\": 203.929, \"end\": 204.129, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"害\", \"start\": 204.129, \"end\": 204.59, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 204.59, \"end\": 204.81, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"掉\", \"start\": 204.81, \"end\": 204.93, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 204.93, \"end\": 205.11, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 205.11, \"end\": 205.39, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 205.39, \"end\": 205.59, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 205.59, \"end\": 205.831, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 205.831, \"end\": 206.011, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 730.512, \"end\": 730.632, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 730.632, \"end\": 730.773, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 730.773, \"end\": 730.873, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 730.873, \"end\": 731.013, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 731.013, \"end\": 731.153, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 731.153, \"end\": 731.173, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,429 --> 00:00:11,335\n主席謝謝各位委員還有各位官員我也想請彭部長謝謝請部長陳委員好\n\n2\n00:00:16,909 --> 00:00:27,620\n部長早部長記得上次我們有質詢過掛在您的署下一個計劃建構國家安全化學與韌性永續計劃這個計劃總經費要花96億元今年2025年正式上路那我也記得\n\n3\n00:00:34,187 --> 00:01:00,404\n之前有曾經質詢過您今年我們預計用三千萬採購第一台核生化災害處理車還有另外再花九千萬買三台化學災害處理車共計一億兩千萬元所以我想請問目前這個招標跟採購的計畫進度是如何好報告委員這個是不是請我們化學署副署長來回應因為這個是我可能都看不到這個招標案來副署長謝謝委員\n\n4\n00:01:03,892 --> 00:01:15,758\n我們的建構國際安全化學計畫以及能量性永續計畫是跨部會合作的部分那剛剛委員關心的部分他是跨部會的採購那是採購的一個權責都是在相關的部會裡面\n\n5\n00:01:17,239 --> 00:01:37,618\n所以你被掛名了現在不知道自己進度在哪裡的事情不是不是掛名因為每個部會有他的採購程序那現在是三月嘛那正在進行這個標案的一個審查跟採購作業這樣子所以上次有請教過部長最後這些核生化處理車您要放在哪一個縣市政府請問您現在溝通好了嗎\n\n6\n00:01:38,559 --> 00:02:03,110\n核生化處理的部分是國防部因為有儲屋的一個需求我們大概在15年前跟國防部合作買了就訂製了兩部的一個儲屋處理車但是年代已經很久遠了有些都已經老舊所以他必須要再重新去做採購的部分那至於說配在哪些縣市因為那是國防部他在主政做分配不會放在縣市應該是放在軍團的部分\n\n7\n00:02:03,850 --> 00:02:30,668\n所以其實你們這邊化學署是不清楚的只是你們跟人家一起掛了一個計畫報告委員不是不清楚我們都有定期的召開會議我們三個月才跟部會開過會議這樣子會了解他們的計畫所以還在採購中對整個計畫是有做控管的他整個進度都要報告到我們GPS的整個的流程上去做控管因為現在才三月份他是每一季要做一次報告的那就請部長回來\n\n8\n00:02:33,189 --> 00:02:50,615\n謝謝部長這個你應該也看過非常多的報導因為現在新興污染物這件事情很獲得重視而且超過六成的民眾缺乏對它的認識那當然其中包括塑料啊或是環境荷爾蒙啊以及除草劑農藥等等的殘留但這些東西一旦在空氣中經過降雨\n\n9\n00:02:52,356 --> 00:03:04,685\n到水裡面它同樣也會污染我們的水質今天您的報告大部分都在講到空氣品質但請問為什麼隻字未提空氣污染對水污染造成的防治跟因應呢\n\n10\n00:03:05,496 --> 00:03:27,472\n包委員因為目前我們台灣的水質例如說我們關心的PFAS等等它其實來源是我們實際上的污染直接排放到水體裡面去例如說PFAS的這個影響那我們國內的對重金屬對於水質的影響並不是很嚴重所以這個部分其實因為我們談的是PM2.5空瓶的危害那個掉到水裡面其實目前來看的話影響不是很高\n\n11\n00:03:28,132 --> 00:03:50,086\n對我就是要跟你聊這個PFAS好剛剛有講到說PFAS它會從空氣排到水你的水溫如果升高的時候其實PFAS就會揮發到空氣中水溫如果降低的時候PFAS就會留在水裡面所以您不覺得PFAS這樣子的新興污染物其實你也要列入你的空瓶空瓶的評鑑項目之一嗎\n\n12\n00:03:51,844 --> 00:04:10,817\n報告委員因為PFAS現在都是例如說我們國人過去用的例如說消防器或是食品的包裝那個為主那跟空氣裡面的量因為我們其實在去年跟NASA合作有去量空氣中裡面PFAS它的濃度跟亞洲的世界各國相比並不是特別的高\n\n13\n00:04:11,738 --> 00:04:28,581\n可是您看這是您之前2023年自己環境部做的報告耶你說2023年的時候全台灣你盤查起來有37座的淨水廠PFAS是超標的沒有其實沒有那麼的多我是不是請我們水保司司長簡單的回答一下\n\n14\n00:04:30,267 --> 00:04:59,689\n跟委員報告剛才那個37座當時這個是美國的標準美國標準是在去前年的時候訂了一個全世界最嚴格的標準那事實上這個標準基本上非常的嚴格幾乎是不能減出那各國都在做這個PFAS相關的一個研究那我們是在去年的時候訂了這個相關的我們國內的標準這個國內的標準基本上參考了這個世界的衛生組織還有鄰近國家那我們訂了這個標準之後目前的一個\n\n15\n00:05:00,069 --> 00:05:26,779\n所以你的意思是說美國的標準太嚴格我們自己台灣稍微下修一下不能這麼說基本上因為美國它有生產跟製造PFAS然後它的軍工廠這個飛機廠這個相關的這個使用比較多而且歷史比較久那PFAS它是我們講的所謂的一個難分解的一個有機物它在環境中可能會比較久一點那美國因為它長期使用而且製造所以它的問題是相較比較嚴重好\n\n16\n00:05:28,260 --> 00:05:54,038\n好那今年呢其實1月的時候我發給您公文說請問這個會期你有沒有想要修法的一些環境部相關的法案結果您回答我是沒有現在問一下齁請問這個飲用水管理條例既然你都已經知道說有37座淨水廠致癌物超標好也許小於37座那你認為這個20年沒有修的飲用水管理條例到現在都不用再去管它嗎\n\n17\n00:05:55,274 --> 00:06:22,836\n報告委員這個其實我們在去年的11月25號就發布飲用水的水質標準的條例這個是我們用我們自己環境部就可以發布這個有發布了所以你不需要調整目前已調整了PFAS我們例如說PFOA跟PFOS要小於50那個NGL那你知道罰環關於你的罰環有多久沒有修改了嗎這個可能很久了這個對化學度基本上是回到飲用水管理條例母法的規定\n\n18\n00:06:24,662 --> 00:06:43,991\n我跟你說28年28年沒有修改了等一下我們來看一下你的法環大概是多少這個就是您剛講到的2023年發現PFAS超標但是你到2024年8月中旬才開始預告說要制定相關的規範所以您現在其實是把相關的規範調整到比美國稍微再寬鬆一點\n\n19\n00:06:46,859 --> 00:07:04,953\n我們是跟日本相同的跟日本是一樣的標準所以從預告到上路最後呢2027年7月才會開始有處罰機制所以2027年7月往前這樣子回推是不是就算是一個免罰的空窗期\n\n20\n00:07:05,633 --> 00:07:34,845\n包委員其實不是這個是讓他們有機會去改善跟緩衝因為現在我們這個有幾個淨水廠是的確他的標準是比較高一點點那事實上他們一直逐漸在降低當中所以他們為什麼需要這麼長的時間可以跟我們大家解釋一下嗎包委員那個其實要改善PFAS水質表現他的這個製程淨水的這個設備是要大幅度的改善所以自來水公司希望他們自己要努力一點所以要到2027年我們才能比較安心一點\n\n21\n00:07:36,900 --> 00:07:50,578\n跟委員報告基本上我們曾經有普查過也參考了美國污染的一個案例的做法我們會針對機場附近的進水場優先那這個部分調查的結果基本上我們的瞭解復驗的結果基本上都符合規定這個部分沒有太大的問題\n\n22\n00:07:51,579 --> 00:08:14,633\n那進一步的話就是前面的一個調查的部分我們已經排定了一個稽查的一個計畫那會逐步來做那這個部分我們也了解了這個其他國家的一個污染的一個案例的了解基本上地面水鐵的部分不用太大關心不用太大擔心那只要是附近有污染的類似這個機場的話我們要特別注意那我們已經有做過相關的一個\n\n23\n00:08:14,733 --> 00:08:37,528\n部長我給你看一下這個就是28年從來沒有調整的假使有污染飲用水最高是罰6萬假使有新興污染物污染的飲用水最高是處罰60萬這是民國86年訂的我不知道您有沒有機會可以到我們中南部我週末才到高雄跑行程你應該知道到處都是加水站吧\n\n24\n00:08:38,513 --> 00:09:03,746\n那你知道民眾會去加水的原因是什麼嗎報告委員其實目前我們環境部調查PFAS等等的污染只有地面水體只有一點點它就在機場的這個附近那至於說這個南部當然南部有些水質不好但是一部分是口感的問題啦但是其實水質的改善還是我們需要的目標那因為它真的要改善花的錢多不只六萬啦它其實要花可能要六百萬或六千萬以上所以要給它一點點時間\n\n25\n00:09:04,286 --> 00:09:21,976\n因為可能一般民眾很重視的比如說清道垃圾或是糞便尿液化學物品動物的殘骸等等污染水質28年前訂立的罰金額度最高不超過6萬來處分你覺得合理嗎你覺得你這個需要研議來修正調整嗎\n\n26\n00:09:23,506 --> 00:09:36,131\n對報告委員這個其實是一個樣但是有時候我們處理都是會按日來連罰啦所以我也不用擔心所以你覺得不用修改當然啦其實只要公布的話其實對這些飲用水的提供者的單位壓力會更大\n\n27\n00:09:37,765 --> 00:09:55,378\n你覺得六萬壓力很大不是只要我們跟大家講說這邊水油不能喝那邊有問題好那我等一下我等一下給你看一下哪邊水有問題你應該記得之前其實有一個牽管造成這個水質的汙染所以當時呢我們全台北市就找了相關的人免費喔到\n\n28\n00:09:56,198 --> 00:10:23,332\n市立醫院去辦理抽血的檢查檢查這些圈有沒有過量那這是我們辦公室從你們環境部拿到的資料你們最近呢有發現一間大學有一個神經毒性的本超標64倍然後被開罰但你們並沒有告訴國人這件事情那根據國家環境毒物研究中心裡列為本就是一個致癌物但是你們卻沒有發布這個消息請問為什麼\n\n29\n00:10:26,842 --> 00:10:41,308\n這個是一個簡易自來水那簡易自來水的意思就是由自己因為他這個自來水管線沒有到達他自己設置的那是以設置的一個處理基本上這個處理的設備附近我們有發現說他有堆置其他的一些物品\n\n30\n00:10:42,088 --> 00:11:00,168\n所以他的本是來自於他堆置其他的物品對還有其他的相關的設施在那邊我們是覺得這個是一個問題所以我們後面去復驗的結果基本上已經都符合規定了那包含環保局的復驗還有檢疫治療所設置的管理單位那你們有關心這些師生的健康嗎\n\n31\n00:11:02,677 --> 00:11:27,661\n你們有關心這些失聲的健康嗎因為他們已經不知道暴露在這些神經毒性的本多久了這個部分因為對我們是覺得他是一個單一的一個事件因為這個可能還有這個相關的一個檢驗的問題都要重新再做一次確認所以我們復驗的結果基本上是符合規定所以你們復驗沒有那你們就覺得以前的這個本超標可能沒有對這群人造成危害\n\n32\n00:11:31,155 --> 00:11:50,368\n應該這麼說就是說這個本的這個項目基本上常常跟他的採樣也有很大的密切的關係所以我們也辦了復驗之後確定他沒有太大的問題那他們不用去接受一些檢查嗎這些已經暴露在這些本裡面的學校的工作人員\n\n33\n00:11:53,146 --> 00:12:11,173\n我們會再來跟這個科技大學做一個追蹤跟了解因為它基本上它是一個供水的這個簡易自然水的供水單位好我覺得這樣跟跟你們以前處理這個鉛重堵的事件有點落差太大了之後我會再跟你們追好嗎謝謝我再來了解謝謝謝謝好謝謝陳委員謝謝部長請回那接下來請\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n429\t11335\t主席謝謝各位委員還有各位官員我也想請彭部長謝謝請部長陳委員好\n16909\t27620\t部長早部長記得上次我們有質詢過掛在您的署下一個計劃建構國家安全化學與韌性永續計劃這個計劃總經費要花96億元今年2025年正式上路那我也記得\n34187\t60404\t之前有曾經質詢過您今年我們預計用三千萬採購第一台核生化災害處理車還有另外再花九千萬買三台化學災害處理車共計一億兩千萬元所以我想請問目前這個招標跟採購的計畫進度是如何好 報告委員 這個是不是請我們化學署副署長來回應因為這個是我可能都看不到這個招標案來 副署長謝謝委員\n63892\t75758\t我們的建構國際安全化學計畫以及能量性永續計畫是跨部會合作的部分那剛剛委員關心的部分他是跨部會的採購那是採購的一個權責都是在相關的部會裡面\n77239\t97618\t所以你被掛名了 現在不知道自己進度在哪裡的事情不是 不是掛名 因為每個部會有他的採購程序那現在是三月嘛 那正在進行這個標案的一個審查跟採購作業這樣子所以上次有請教過部長 最後這些核生化處理車您要放在哪一個縣市政府 請問您現在溝通好了嗎\n98559\t123110\t核生化處理的部分是國防部因為有儲屋的一個需求我們大概在15年前跟國防部合作買了就訂製了兩部的一個儲屋處理車但是年代已經很久遠了有些都已經老舊所以他必須要再重新去做採購的部分那至於說配在哪些縣市因為那是國防部他在主政做分配不會放在縣市應該是放在軍團的部分\n123850\t150668\t所以其實你們這邊化學署是不清楚的只是你們跟人家一起掛了一個計畫報告委員不是不清楚我們都有定期的召開會議我們三個月才跟部會開過會議這樣子會了解他們的計畫所以還在採購中對整個計畫是有做控管的他整個進度都要報告到我們GPS的整個的流程上去做控管因為現在才三月份他是每一季要做一次報告的那就請部長回來\n153189\t170615\t謝謝部長這個你應該也看過非常多的報導因為現在新興污染物這件事情很獲得重視而且超過六成的民眾缺乏對它的認識那當然其中包括塑料啊或是環境荷爾蒙啊以及除草劑農藥等等的殘留但這些東西一旦在空氣中經過降雨\n172356\t184685\t到水裡面它同樣也會污染我們的水質今天您的報告大部分都在講到空氣品質但請問為什麼隻字未提空氣污染對水污染造成的防治跟因應呢\n185496\t207472\t包委員因為目前我們台灣的水質例如說我們關心的PFAS等等它其實來源是我們實際上的污染直接排放到水體裡面去例如說PFAS的這個影響那我們國內的對重金屬對於水質的影響並不是很嚴重所以這個部分其實因為我們談的是PM2.5空瓶的危害那個掉到水裡面其實目前來看的話影響不是很高\n208132\t230086\t對 我就是要跟你聊這個PFAS好 剛剛有講到說PFAS它會從空氣排到水你的水溫如果升高的時候其實PFAS就會揮發到空氣中水溫如果降低的時候PFAS就會留在水裡面所以您不覺得PFAS這樣子的新興污染物其實你也要列入你的空瓶空瓶的評鑑項目之一嗎\n231844\t250817\t報告委員因為PFAS現在都是例如說我們國人過去用的例如說消防器或是食品的包裝那個為主那跟空氣裡面的量因為我們其實在去年跟NASA合作有去量空氣中裡面PFAS它的濃度跟亞洲的世界各國相比並不是特別的高\n251738\t268581\t可是您看這是您之前2023年自己環境部做的報告耶你說2023年的時候全台灣你盤查起來有37座的淨水廠PFAS是超標的沒有其實沒有那麼的多我是不是請我們水保司司長簡單的回答一下\n270267\t299689\t跟委員報告剛才那個37座當時這個是美國的標準美國標準是在去前年的時候訂了一個全世界最嚴格的標準那事實上這個標準基本上非常的嚴格幾乎是不能減出那各國都在做這個PFAS相關的一個研究那我們是在去年的時候訂了這個相關的我們國內的標準這個國內的標準基本上參考了這個世界的衛生組織還有鄰近國家那我們訂了這個標準之後目前的一個\n300069\t326779\t所以你的意思是說美國的標準太嚴格我們自己台灣稍微下修一下不能這麼說基本上因為美國它有生產跟製造PFAS然後它的軍工廠這個飛機廠這個相關的這個使用比較多而且歷史比較久那PFAS它是我們講的所謂的一個難分解的一個有機物它在環境中可能會比較久一點那美國因為它長期使用而且製造所以它的問題是相較比較嚴重好\n328260\t354038\t好那今年呢其實1月的時候我發給您公文說請問這個會期你有沒有想要修法的一些環境部相關的法案結果您回答我是沒有現在問一下齁請問這個飲用水管理條例既然你都已經知道說有37座淨水廠致癌物超標好也許小於37座那你認為這個20年沒有修的飲用水管理條例到現在都不用再去管它嗎\n355274\t382836\t報告委員這個其實我們在去年的11月25號就發布飲用水的水質標準的條例這個是我們用我們自己環境部就可以發布這個有發布了所以你不需要調整目前已調整了PFAS我們例如說PFOA跟PFOS要小於50那個NGL那你知道罰環關於你的罰環有多久沒有修改了嗎這個可能很久了這個對 化學度基本上是回到飲用水管理條例母法的規定\n384662\t403991\t我跟你說28年28年沒有修改了等一下我們來看一下你的法環大概是多少這個就是您剛講到的2023年發現PFAS超標但是你到2024年8月中旬才開始預告說要制定相關的規範所以您現在其實是把相關的規範調整到比美國稍微再寬鬆一點\n406859\t424953\t我們是跟日本相同的跟日本是一樣的標準所以從預告到上路最後呢2027年7月才會開始有處罰機制所以2027年7月往前這樣子回推是不是就算是一個免罰的空窗期\n425633\t454845\t包委員其實不是這個是讓他們有機會去改善跟緩衝因為現在我們這個有幾個淨水廠是的確他的標準是比較高一點點那事實上他們一直逐漸在降低當中所以他們為什麼需要這麼長的時間可以跟我們大家解釋一下嗎包委員那個其實要改善PFAS水質表現他的這個製程淨水的這個設備是要大幅度的改善所以自來水公司希望他們自己要努力一點所以要到2027年我們才能比較安心一點\n456900\t470578\t跟委員報告基本上我們曾經有普查過也參考了美國污染的一個案例的做法我們會針對機場附近的進水場優先那這個部分調查的結果基本上我們的瞭解復驗的結果基本上都符合規定這個部分沒有太大的問題\n471579\t494633\t那進一步的話就是前面的一個調查的部分我們已經排定了一個稽查的一個計畫那會逐步來做那這個部分我們也了解了這個其他國家的一個污染的一個案例的了解基本上地面水鐵的部分不用太大關心不用太大擔心那只要是附近有污染的類似這個機場的話我們要特別注意那我們已經有做過相關的一個\n494733\t517528\t部長我給你看一下這個就是28年從來沒有調整的假使有污染飲用水最高是罰6萬假使有新興污染物污染的飲用水最高是處罰60萬這是民國86年訂的我不知道您有沒有機會可以到我們中南部我週末才到高雄跑行程你應該知道到處都是加水站吧\n518513\t543746\t那你知道民眾會去加水的原因是什麼嗎報告委員其實目前我們環境部調查PFAS等等的污染只有地面水體只有一點點它就在機場的這個附近那至於說這個南部當然南部有些水質不好但是一部分是口感的問題啦但是其實水質的改善還是我們需要的目標那因為它真的要改善花的錢多不只六萬啦它其實要花可能要六百萬或六千萬以上所以要給它一點點時間\n544286\t561976\t因為可能一般民眾很重視的比如說清道垃圾或是糞便 尿液化學物品 動物的殘骸等等污染水質28年前訂立的罰金額度最高不超過6萬來處分你覺得合理嗎你覺得你這個需要研議來修正調整嗎\n563506\t576131\t對 報告委員 這個其實是一個樣但是有時候我們處理都是會按日來連罰啦所以我也不用擔心所以你覺得不用修改當然啦 其實只要公布的話其實對這些飲用水的提供者的單位壓力會更大\n577765\t595378\t你覺得六萬壓力很大不是只要我們跟大家講說這邊水油不能喝那邊有問題好那我等一下我等一下給你看一下哪邊水有問題你應該記得之前其實有一個牽管造成這個水質的汙染所以當時呢我們全台北市就找了相關的人免費喔到\n596198\t623332\t市立醫院去辦理抽血的檢查 檢查這些圈有沒有過量那這是我們辦公室從你們環境部拿到的資料你們最近呢有發現一間大學有一個神經毒性的本超標64倍然後被開罰但你們並沒有告訴國人這件事情那根據國家環境毒物研究中心裡列為本就是一個致癌物但是你們卻沒有發布這個消息請問為什麼\n626842\t641308\t這個是一個簡易自來水那簡易自來水的意思就是由自己因為他這個自來水管線沒有到達他自己設置的那是以設置的一個處理基本上這個處理的設備附近我們有發現說他有堆置其他的一些物品\n642088\t660168\t所以他的本是來自於他堆置其他的物品對 還有其他的相關的設施在那邊我們是覺得這個是一個問題所以我們後面去復驗的結果基本上已經都符合規定了那包含環保局的復驗還有檢疫治療所設置的管理單位那你們有關心這些師生的健康嗎\n662677\t687661\t你們有關心這些失聲的健康嗎因為他們已經不知道暴露在這些神經毒性的本多久了這個部分因為對我們是覺得他是一個單一的一個事件因為這個可能還有這個相關的一個檢驗的問題都要重新再做一次確認所以我們復驗的結果基本上是符合規定所以你們復驗沒有那你們就覺得以前的這個本超標可能沒有對這群人造成危害\n691155\t710368\t應該這麼說就是說這個本的這個項目基本上常常跟他的採樣也有很大的密切的關係所以我們也辦了復驗之後確定他沒有太大的問題那他們不用去接受一些檢查嗎這些已經暴露在這些本裡面的學校的工作人員\n713146\t731173\t我們會再來跟這個科技大學做一個追蹤跟了解因為它基本上它是一個供水的這個簡易自然水的供水單位好我覺得這樣跟跟你們以前處理這個鉛重堵的事件有點落差太大了之後我會再跟你們追好嗎謝謝我再來了解謝謝謝謝好謝謝陳委員謝謝部長請回那接下來請\n","txt":"主席謝謝各位委員還有各位官員我也想請彭部長謝謝請部長陳委員好\n部長早部長記得上次我們有質詢過掛在您的署下一個計劃建構國家安全化學與韌性永續計劃這個計劃總經費要花96億元今年2025年正式上路那我也記得\n之前有曾經質詢過您今年我們預計用三千萬採購第一台核生化災害處理車還有另外再花九千萬買三台化學災害處理車共計一億兩千萬元所以我想請問目前這個招標跟採購的計畫進度是如何好 報告委員 這個是不是請我們化學署副署長來回應因為這個是我可能都看不到這個招標案來 副署長謝謝委員\n我們的建構國際安全化學計畫以及能量性永續計畫是跨部會合作的部分那剛剛委員關心的部分他是跨部會的採購那是採購的一個權責都是在相關的部會裡面\n所以你被掛名了 現在不知道自己進度在哪裡的事情不是 不是掛名 因為每個部會有他的採購程序那現在是三月嘛 那正在進行這個標案的一個審查跟採購作業這樣子所以上次有請教過部長 最後這些核生化處理車您要放在哪一個縣市政府 請問您現在溝通好了嗎\n核生化處理的部分是國防部因為有儲屋的一個需求我們大概在15年前跟國防部合作買了就訂製了兩部的一個儲屋處理車但是年代已經很久遠了有些都已經老舊所以他必須要再重新去做採購的部分那至於說配在哪些縣市因為那是國防部他在主政做分配不會放在縣市應該是放在軍團的部分\n所以其實你們這邊化學署是不清楚的只是你們跟人家一起掛了一個計畫報告委員不是不清楚我們都有定期的召開會議我們三個月才跟部會開過會議這樣子會了解他們的計畫所以還在採購中對整個計畫是有做控管的他整個進度都要報告到我們GPS的整個的流程上去做控管因為現在才三月份他是每一季要做一次報告的那就請部長回來\n謝謝部長這個你應該也看過非常多的報導因為現在新興污染物這件事情很獲得重視而且超過六成的民眾缺乏對它的認識那當然其中包括塑料啊或是環境荷爾蒙啊以及除草劑農藥等等的殘留但這些東西一旦在空氣中經過降雨\n到水裡面它同樣也會污染我們的水質今天您的報告大部分都在講到空氣品質但請問為什麼隻字未提空氣污染對水污染造成的防治跟因應呢\n包委員因為目前我們台灣的水質例如說我們關心的PFAS等等它其實來源是我們實際上的污染直接排放到水體裡面去例如說PFAS的這個影響那我們國內的對重金屬對於水質的影響並不是很嚴重所以這個部分其實因為我們談的是PM2.5空瓶的危害那個掉到水裡面其實目前來看的話影響不是很高\n對 我就是要跟你聊這個PFAS好 剛剛有講到說PFAS它會從空氣排到水你的水溫如果升高的時候其實PFAS就會揮發到空氣中水溫如果降低的時候PFAS就會留在水裡面所以您不覺得PFAS這樣子的新興污染物其實你也要列入你的空瓶空瓶的評鑑項目之一嗎\n報告委員因為PFAS現在都是例如說我們國人過去用的例如說消防器或是食品的包裝那個為主那跟空氣裡面的量因為我們其實在去年跟NASA合作有去量空氣中裡面PFAS它的濃度跟亞洲的世界各國相比並不是特別的高\n可是您看這是您之前2023年自己環境部做的報告耶你說2023年的時候全台灣你盤查起來有37座的淨水廠PFAS是超標的沒有其實沒有那麼的多我是不是請我們水保司司長簡單的回答一下\n跟委員報告剛才那個37座當時這個是美國的標準美國標準是在去前年的時候訂了一個全世界最嚴格的標準那事實上這個標準基本上非常的嚴格幾乎是不能減出那各國都在做這個PFAS相關的一個研究那我們是在去年的時候訂了這個相關的我們國內的標準這個國內的標準基本上參考了這個世界的衛生組織還有鄰近國家那我們訂了這個標準之後目前的一個\n所以你的意思是說美國的標準太嚴格我們自己台灣稍微下修一下不能這麼說基本上因為美國它有生產跟製造PFAS然後它的軍工廠這個飛機廠這個相關的這個使用比較多而且歷史比較久那PFAS它是我們講的所謂的一個難分解的一個有機物它在環境中可能會比較久一點那美國因為它長期使用而且製造所以它的問題是相較比較嚴重好\n好那今年呢其實1月的時候我發給您公文說請問這個會期你有沒有想要修法的一些環境部相關的法案結果您回答我是沒有現在問一下齁請問這個飲用水管理條例既然你都已經知道說有37座淨水廠致癌物超標好也許小於37座那你認為這個20年沒有修的飲用水管理條例到現在都不用再去管它嗎\n報告委員這個其實我們在去年的11月25號就發布飲用水的水質標準的條例這個是我們用我們自己環境部就可以發布這個有發布了所以你不需要調整目前已調整了PFAS我們例如說PFOA跟PFOS要小於50那個NGL那你知道罰環關於你的罰環有多久沒有修改了嗎這個可能很久了這個對 化學度基本上是回到飲用水管理條例母法的規定\n我跟你說28年28年沒有修改了等一下我們來看一下你的法環大概是多少這個就是您剛講到的2023年發現PFAS超標但是你到2024年8月中旬才開始預告說要制定相關的規範所以您現在其實是把相關的規範調整到比美國稍微再寬鬆一點\n我們是跟日本相同的跟日本是一樣的標準所以從預告到上路最後呢2027年7月才會開始有處罰機制所以2027年7月往前這樣子回推是不是就算是一個免罰的空窗期\n包委員其實不是這個是讓他們有機會去改善跟緩衝因為現在我們這個有幾個淨水廠是的確他的標準是比較高一點點那事實上他們一直逐漸在降低當中所以他們為什麼需要這麼長的時間可以跟我們大家解釋一下嗎包委員那個其實要改善PFAS水質表現他的這個製程淨水的這個設備是要大幅度的改善所以自來水公司希望他們自己要努力一點所以要到2027年我們才能比較安心一點\n跟委員報告基本上我們曾經有普查過也參考了美國污染的一個案例的做法我們會針對機場附近的進水場優先那這個部分調查的結果基本上我們的瞭解復驗的結果基本上都符合規定這個部分沒有太大的問題\n那進一步的話就是前面的一個調查的部分我們已經排定了一個稽查的一個計畫那會逐步來做那這個部分我們也了解了這個其他國家的一個污染的一個案例的了解基本上地面水鐵的部分不用太大關心不用太大擔心那只要是附近有污染的類似這個機場的話我們要特別注意那我們已經有做過相關的一個\n部長我給你看一下這個就是28年從來沒有調整的假使有污染飲用水最高是罰6萬假使有新興污染物污染的飲用水最高是處罰60萬這是民國86年訂的我不知道您有沒有機會可以到我們中南部我週末才到高雄跑行程你應該知道到處都是加水站吧\n那你知道民眾會去加水的原因是什麼嗎報告委員其實目前我們環境部調查PFAS等等的污染只有地面水體只有一點點它就在機場的這個附近那至於說這個南部當然南部有些水質不好但是一部分是口感的問題啦但是其實水質的改善還是我們需要的目標那因為它真的要改善花的錢多不只六萬啦它其實要花可能要六百萬或六千萬以上所以要給它一點點時間\n因為可能一般民眾很重視的比如說清道垃圾或是糞便 尿液化學物品 動物的殘骸等等污染水質28年前訂立的罰金額度最高不超過6萬來處分你覺得合理嗎你覺得你這個需要研議來修正調整嗎\n對 報告委員 這個其實是一個樣但是有時候我們處理都是會按日來連罰啦所以我也不用擔心所以你覺得不用修改當然啦 其實只要公布的話其實對這些飲用水的提供者的單位壓力會更大\n你覺得六萬壓力很大不是只要我們跟大家講說這邊水油不能喝那邊有問題好那我等一下我等一下給你看一下哪邊水有問題你應該記得之前其實有一個牽管造成這個水質的汙染所以當時呢我們全台北市就找了相關的人免費喔到\n市立醫院去辦理抽血的檢查 檢查這些圈有沒有過量那這是我們辦公室從你們環境部拿到的資料你們最近呢有發現一間大學有一個神經毒性的本超標64倍然後被開罰但你們並沒有告訴國人這件事情那根據國家環境毒物研究中心裡列為本就是一個致癌物但是你們卻沒有發布這個消息請問為什麼\n這個是一個簡易自來水那簡易自來水的意思就是由自己因為他這個自來水管線沒有到達他自己設置的那是以設置的一個處理基本上這個處理的設備附近我們有發現說他有堆置其他的一些物品\n所以他的本是來自於他堆置其他的物品對 還有其他的相關的設施在那邊我們是覺得這個是一個問題所以我們後面去復驗的結果基本上已經都符合規定了那包含環保局的復驗還有檢疫治療所設置的管理單位那你們有關心這些師生的健康嗎\n你們有關心這些失聲的健康嗎因為他們已經不知道暴露在這些神經毒性的本多久了這個部分因為對我們是覺得他是一個單一的一個事件因為這個可能還有這個相關的一個檢驗的問題都要重新再做一次確認所以我們復驗的結果基本上是符合規定所以你們復驗沒有那你們就覺得以前的這個本超標可能沒有對這群人造成危害\n應該這麼說就是說這個本的這個項目基本上常常跟他的採樣也有很大的密切的關係所以我們也辦了復驗之後確定他沒有太大的問題那他們不用去接受一些檢查嗎這些已經暴露在這些本裡面的學校的工作人員\n我們會再來跟這個科技大學做一個追蹤跟了解因為它基本上它是一個供水的這個簡易自然水的供水單位好我覺得這樣跟跟你們以前處理這個鉛重堵的事件有點落差太大了之後我會再跟你們追好嗎謝謝我再來了解謝謝謝謝好謝謝陳委員謝謝部長請回那接下來請\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.429 --> 00:11.335\n主席謝謝各位委員還有各位官員我也想請彭部長謝謝請部長陳委員好\n\n00:16.909 --> 00:27.620\n部長早部長記得上次我們有質詢過掛在您的署下一個計劃建構國家安全化學與韌性永續計劃這個計劃總經費要花96億元今年2025年正式上路那我也記得\n\n00:34.187 --> 01:00.404\n之前有曾經質詢過您今年我們預計用三千萬採購第一台核生化災害處理車還有另外再花九千萬買三台化學災害處理車共計一億兩千萬元所以我想請問目前這個招標跟採購的計畫進度是如何好報告委員這個是不是請我們化學署副署長來回應因為這個是我可能都看不到這個招標案來副署長謝謝委員\n\n01:03.892 --> 01:15.758\n我們的建構國際安全化學計畫以及能量性永續計畫是跨部會合作的部分那剛剛委員關心的部分他是跨部會的採購那是採購的一個權責都是在相關的部會裡面\n\n01:17.239 --> 01:37.618\n所以你被掛名了現在不知道自己進度在哪裡的事情不是不是掛名因為每個部會有他的採購程序那現在是三月嘛那正在進行這個標案的一個審查跟採購作業這樣子所以上次有請教過部長最後這些核生化處理車您要放在哪一個縣市政府請問您現在溝通好了嗎\n\n01:38.559 --> 02:03.110\n核生化處理的部分是國防部因為有儲屋的一個需求我們大概在15年前跟國防部合作買了就訂製了兩部的一個儲屋處理車但是年代已經很久遠了有些都已經老舊所以他必須要再重新去做採購的部分那至於說配在哪些縣市因為那是國防部他在主政做分配不會放在縣市應該是放在軍團的部分\n\n02:03.850 --> 02:30.668\n所以其實你們這邊化學署是不清楚的只是你們跟人家一起掛了一個計畫報告委員不是不清楚我們都有定期的召開會議我們三個月才跟部會開過會議這樣子會了解他們的計畫所以還在採購中對整個計畫是有做控管的他整個進度都要報告到我們GPS的整個的流程上去做控管因為現在才三月份他是每一季要做一次報告的那就請部長回來\n\n02:33.189 --> 02:50.615\n謝謝部長這個你應該也看過非常多的報導因為現在新興污染物這件事情很獲得重視而且超過六成的民眾缺乏對它的認識那當然其中包括塑料啊或是環境荷爾蒙啊以及除草劑農藥等等的殘留但這些東西一旦在空氣中經過降雨\n\n02:52.356 --> 03:04.685\n到水裡面它同樣也會污染我們的水質今天您的報告大部分都在講到空氣品質但請問為什麼隻字未提空氣污染對水污染造成的防治跟因應呢\n\n03:05.496 --> 03:27.472\n包委員因為目前我們台灣的水質例如說我們關心的PFAS等等它其實來源是我們實際上的污染直接排放到水體裡面去例如說PFAS的這個影響那我們國內的對重金屬對於水質的影響並不是很嚴重所以這個部分其實因為我們談的是PM2.5空瓶的危害那個掉到水裡面其實目前來看的話影響不是很高\n\n03:28.132 --> 03:50.086\n對我就是要跟你聊這個PFAS好剛剛有講到說PFAS它會從空氣排到水你的水溫如果升高的時候其實PFAS就會揮發到空氣中水溫如果降低的時候PFAS就會留在水裡面所以您不覺得PFAS這樣子的新興污染物其實你也要列入你的空瓶空瓶的評鑑項目之一嗎\n\n03:51.844 --> 04:10.817\n報告委員因為PFAS現在都是例如說我們國人過去用的例如說消防器或是食品的包裝那個為主那跟空氣裡面的量因為我們其實在去年跟NASA合作有去量空氣中裡面PFAS它的濃度跟亞洲的世界各國相比並不是特別的高\n\n04:11.738 --> 04:28.581\n可是您看這是您之前2023年自己環境部做的報告耶你說2023年的時候全台灣你盤查起來有37座的淨水廠PFAS是超標的沒有其實沒有那麼的多我是不是請我們水保司司長簡單的回答一下\n\n04:30.267 --> 04:59.689\n跟委員報告剛才那個37座當時這個是美國的標準美國標準是在去前年的時候訂了一個全世界最嚴格的標準那事實上這個標準基本上非常的嚴格幾乎是不能減出那各國都在做這個PFAS相關的一個研究那我們是在去年的時候訂了這個相關的我們國內的標準這個國內的標準基本上參考了這個世界的衛生組織還有鄰近國家那我們訂了這個標準之後目前的一個\n\n05:00.069 --> 05:26.779\n所以你的意思是說美國的標準太嚴格我們自己台灣稍微下修一下不能這麼說基本上因為美國它有生產跟製造PFAS然後它的軍工廠這個飛機廠這個相關的這個使用比較多而且歷史比較久那PFAS它是我們講的所謂的一個難分解的一個有機物它在環境中可能會比較久一點那美國因為它長期使用而且製造所以它的問題是相較比較嚴重好\n\n05:28.260 --> 05:54.038\n好那今年呢其實1月的時候我發給您公文說請問這個會期你有沒有想要修法的一些環境部相關的法案結果您回答我是沒有現在問一下齁請問這個飲用水管理條例既然你都已經知道說有37座淨水廠致癌物超標好也許小於37座那你認為這個20年沒有修的飲用水管理條例到現在都不用再去管它嗎\n\n05:55.274 --> 06:22.836\n報告委員這個其實我們在去年的11月25號就發布飲用水的水質標準的條例這個是我們用我們自己環境部就可以發布這個有發布了所以你不需要調整目前已調整了PFAS我們例如說PFOA跟PFOS要小於50那個NGL那你知道罰環關於你的罰環有多久沒有修改了嗎這個可能很久了這個對化學度基本上是回到飲用水管理條例母法的規定\n\n06:24.662 --> 06:43.991\n我跟你說28年28年沒有修改了等一下我們來看一下你的法環大概是多少這個就是您剛講到的2023年發現PFAS超標但是你到2024年8月中旬才開始預告說要制定相關的規範所以您現在其實是把相關的規範調整到比美國稍微再寬鬆一點\n\n06:46.859 --> 07:04.953\n我們是跟日本相同的跟日本是一樣的標準所以從預告到上路最後呢2027年7月才會開始有處罰機制所以2027年7月往前這樣子回推是不是就算是一個免罰的空窗期\n\n07:05.633 --> 07:34.845\n包委員其實不是這個是讓他們有機會去改善跟緩衝因為現在我們這個有幾個淨水廠是的確他的標準是比較高一點點那事實上他們一直逐漸在降低當中所以他們為什麼需要這麼長的時間可以跟我們大家解釋一下嗎包委員那個其實要改善PFAS水質表現他的這個製程淨水的這個設備是要大幅度的改善所以自來水公司希望他們自己要努力一點所以要到2027年我們才能比較安心一點\n\n07:36.900 --> 07:50.578\n跟委員報告基本上我們曾經有普查過也參考了美國污染的一個案例的做法我們會針對機場附近的進水場優先那這個部分調查的結果基本上我們的瞭解復驗的結果基本上都符合規定這個部分沒有太大的問題\n\n07:51.579 --> 08:14.633\n那進一步的話就是前面的一個調查的部分我們已經排定了一個稽查的一個計畫那會逐步來做那這個部分我們也了解了這個其他國家的一個污染的一個案例的了解基本上地面水鐵的部分不用太大關心不用太大擔心那只要是附近有污染的類似這個機場的話我們要特別注意那我們已經有做過相關的一個\n\n08:14.733 --> 08:37.528\n部長我給你看一下這個就是28年從來沒有調整的假使有污染飲用水最高是罰6萬假使有新興污染物污染的飲用水最高是處罰60萬這是民國86年訂的我不知道您有沒有機會可以到我們中南部我週末才到高雄跑行程你應該知道到處都是加水站吧\n\n08:38.513 --> 09:03.746\n那你知道民眾會去加水的原因是什麼嗎報告委員其實目前我們環境部調查PFAS等等的污染只有地面水體只有一點點它就在機場的這個附近那至於說這個南部當然南部有些水質不好但是一部分是口感的問題啦但是其實水質的改善還是我們需要的目標那因為它真的要改善花的錢多不只六萬啦它其實要花可能要六百萬或六千萬以上所以要給它一點點時間\n\n09:04.286 --> 09:21.976\n因為可能一般民眾很重視的比如說清道垃圾或是糞便尿液化學物品動物的殘骸等等污染水質28年前訂立的罰金額度最高不超過6萬來處分你覺得合理嗎你覺得你這個需要研議來修正調整嗎\n\n09:23.506 --> 09:36.131\n對報告委員這個其實是一個樣但是有時候我們處理都是會按日來連罰啦所以我也不用擔心所以你覺得不用修改當然啦其實只要公布的話其實對這些飲用水的提供者的單位壓力會更大\n\n09:37.765 --> 09:55.378\n你覺得六萬壓力很大不是只要我們跟大家講說這邊水油不能喝那邊有問題好那我等一下我等一下給你看一下哪邊水有問題你應該記得之前其實有一個牽管造成這個水質的汙染所以當時呢我們全台北市就找了相關的人免費喔到\n\n09:56.198 --> 10:23.332\n市立醫院去辦理抽血的檢查檢查這些圈有沒有過量那這是我們辦公室從你們環境部拿到的資料你們最近呢有發現一間大學有一個神經毒性的本超標64倍然後被開罰但你們並沒有告訴國人這件事情那根據國家環境毒物研究中心裡列為本就是一個致癌物但是你們卻沒有發布這個消息請問為什麼\n\n10:26.842 --> 10:41.308\n這個是一個簡易自來水那簡易自來水的意思就是由自己因為他這個自來水管線沒有到達他自己設置的那是以設置的一個處理基本上這個處理的設備附近我們有發現說他有堆置其他的一些物品\n\n10:42.088 --> 11:00.168\n所以他的本是來自於他堆置其他的物品對還有其他的相關的設施在那邊我們是覺得這個是一個問題所以我們後面去復驗的結果基本上已經都符合規定了那包含環保局的復驗還有檢疫治療所設置的管理單位那你們有關心這些師生的健康嗎\n\n11:02.677 --> 11:27.661\n你們有關心這些失聲的健康嗎因為他們已經不知道暴露在這些神經毒性的本多久了這個部分因為對我們是覺得他是一個單一的一個事件因為這個可能還有這個相關的一個檢驗的問題都要重新再做一次確認所以我們復驗的結果基本上是符合規定所以你們復驗沒有那你們就覺得以前的這個本超標可能沒有對這群人造成危害\n\n11:31.155 --> 11:50.368\n應該這麼說就是說這個本的這個項目基本上常常跟他的採樣也有很大的密切的關係所以我們也辦了復驗之後確定他沒有太大的問題那他們不用去接受一些檢查嗎這些已經暴露在這些本裡面的學校的工作人員\n\n11:53.146 --> 12:11.173\n我們會再來跟這個科技大學做一個追蹤跟了解因為它基本上它是一個供水的這個簡易自然水的供水單位好我覺得這樣跟跟你們以前處理這個鉛重堵的事件有點落差太大了之後我會再跟你們追好嗎謝謝我再來了解謝謝謝謝好謝謝陳委員謝謝部長請回那接下來請\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.429,"end":11.335,"text":"主席謝謝各位委員還有各位官員我也想請彭部長謝謝請部長陳委員好"},{"start":16.909,"end":27.62,"text":"部長早部長記得上次我們有質詢過掛在您的署下一個計劃建構國家安全化學與韌性永續計劃這個計劃總經費要花96億元今年2025年正式上路那我也記得"},{"start":34.187,"end":60.404,"text":"之前有曾經質詢過您今年我們預計用三千萬採購第一台核生化災害處理車還有另外再花九千萬買三台化學災害處理車共計一億兩千萬元所以我想請問目前這個招標跟採購的計畫進度是如何好 報告委員 這個是不是請我們化學署副署長來回應因為這個是我可能都看不到這個招標案來 副署長謝謝委員"},{"start":63.892,"end":75.758,"text":"我們的建構國際安全化學計畫以及能量性永續計畫是跨部會合作的部分那剛剛委員關心的部分他是跨部會的採購那是採購的一個權責都是在相關的部會裡面"},{"start":77.239,"end":97.618,"text":"所以你被掛名了 現在不知道自己進度在哪裡的事情不是 不是掛名 因為每個部會有他的採購程序那現在是三月嘛 那正在進行這個標案的一個審查跟採購作業這樣子所以上次有請教過部長 最後這些核生化處理車您要放在哪一個縣市政府 請問您現在溝通好了嗎"},{"start":98.559,"end":123.11,"text":"核生化處理的部分是國防部因為有儲屋的一個需求我們大概在15年前跟國防部合作買了就訂製了兩部的一個儲屋處理車但是年代已經很久遠了有些都已經老舊所以他必須要再重新去做採購的部分那至於說配在哪些縣市因為那是國防部他在主政做分配不會放在縣市應該是放在軍團的部分"},{"start":123.85,"end":150.668,"text":"所以其實你們這邊化學署是不清楚的只是你們跟人家一起掛了一個計畫報告委員不是不清楚我們都有定期的召開會議我們三個月才跟部會開過會議這樣子會了解他們的計畫所以還在採購中對整個計畫是有做控管的他整個進度都要報告到我們GPS的整個的流程上去做控管因為現在才三月份他是每一季要做一次報告的那就請部長回來"},{"start":153.189,"end":170.615,"text":"謝謝部長這個你應該也看過非常多的報導因為現在新興污染物這件事情很獲得重視而且超過六成的民眾缺乏對它的認識那當然其中包括塑料啊或是環境荷爾蒙啊以及除草劑農藥等等的殘留但這些東西一旦在空氣中經過降雨"},{"start":172.356,"end":184.685,"text":"到水裡面它同樣也會污染我們的水質今天您的報告大部分都在講到空氣品質但請問為什麼隻字未提空氣污染對水污染造成的防治跟因應呢"},{"start":185.496,"end":207.472,"text":"包委員因為目前我們台灣的水質例如說我們關心的PFAS等等它其實來源是我們實際上的污染直接排放到水體裡面去例如說PFAS的這個影響那我們國內的對重金屬對於水質的影響並不是很嚴重所以這個部分其實因為我們談的是PM2.5空瓶的危害那個掉到水裡面其實目前來看的話影響不是很高"},{"start":208.132,"end":230.086,"text":"對 我就是要跟你聊這個PFAS好 剛剛有講到說PFAS它會從空氣排到水你的水溫如果升高的時候其實PFAS就會揮發到空氣中水溫如果降低的時候PFAS就會留在水裡面所以您不覺得PFAS這樣子的新興污染物其實你也要列入你的空瓶空瓶的評鑑項目之一嗎"},{"start":231.844,"end":250.817,"text":"報告委員因為PFAS現在都是例如說我們國人過去用的例如說消防器或是食品的包裝那個為主那跟空氣裡面的量因為我們其實在去年跟NASA合作有去量空氣中裡面PFAS它的濃度跟亞洲的世界各國相比並不是特別的高"},{"start":251.738,"end":268.581,"text":"可是您看這是您之前2023年自己環境部做的報告耶你說2023年的時候全台灣你盤查起來有37座的淨水廠PFAS是超標的沒有其實沒有那麼的多我是不是請我們水保司司長簡單的回答一下"},{"start":270.267,"end":299.689,"text":"跟委員報告剛才那個37座當時這個是美國的標準美國標準是在去前年的時候訂了一個全世界最嚴格的標準那事實上這個標準基本上非常的嚴格幾乎是不能減出那各國都在做這個PFAS相關的一個研究那我們是在去年的時候訂了這個相關的我們國內的標準這個國內的標準基本上參考了這個世界的衛生組織還有鄰近國家那我們訂了這個標準之後目前的一個"},{"start":300.069,"end":326.779,"text":"所以你的意思是說美國的標準太嚴格我們自己台灣稍微下修一下不能這麼說基本上因為美國它有生產跟製造PFAS然後它的軍工廠這個飛機廠這個相關的這個使用比較多而且歷史比較久那PFAS它是我們講的所謂的一個難分解的一個有機物它在環境中可能會比較久一點那美國因為它長期使用而且製造所以它的問題是相較比較嚴重好"},{"start":328.26,"end":354.038,"text":"好那今年呢其實1月的時候我發給您公文說請問這個會期你有沒有想要修法的一些環境部相關的法案結果您回答我是沒有現在問一下齁請問這個飲用水管理條例既然你都已經知道說有37座淨水廠致癌物超標好也許小於37座那你認為這個20年沒有修的飲用水管理條例到現在都不用再去管它嗎"},{"start":355.274,"end":382.836,"text":"報告委員這個其實我們在去年的11月25號就發布飲用水的水質標準的條例這個是我們用我們自己環境部就可以發布這個有發布了所以你不需要調整目前已調整了PFAS我們例如說PFOA跟PFOS要小於50那個NGL那你知道罰環關於你的罰環有多久沒有修改了嗎這個可能很久了這個對 化學度基本上是回到飲用水管理條例母法的規定"},{"start":384.662,"end":403.991,"text":"我跟你說28年28年沒有修改了等一下我們來看一下你的法環大概是多少這個就是您剛講到的2023年發現PFAS超標但是你到2024年8月中旬才開始預告說要制定相關的規範所以您現在其實是把相關的規範調整到比美國稍微再寬鬆一點"},{"start":406.859,"end":424.953,"text":"我們是跟日本相同的跟日本是一樣的標準所以從預告到上路最後呢2027年7月才會開始有處罰機制所以2027年7月往前這樣子回推是不是就算是一個免罰的空窗期"},{"start":425.633,"end":454.845,"text":"包委員其實不是這個是讓他們有機會去改善跟緩衝因為現在我們這個有幾個淨水廠是的確他的標準是比較高一點點那事實上他們一直逐漸在降低當中所以他們為什麼需要這麼長的時間可以跟我們大家解釋一下嗎包委員那個其實要改善PFAS水質表現他的這個製程淨水的這個設備是要大幅度的改善所以自來水公司希望他們自己要努力一點所以要到2027年我們才能比較安心一點"},{"start":456.9,"end":470.578,"text":"跟委員報告基本上我們曾經有普查過也參考了美國污染的一個案例的做法我們會針對機場附近的進水場優先那這個部分調查的結果基本上我們的瞭解復驗的結果基本上都符合規定這個部分沒有太大的問題"},{"start":471.579,"end":494.633,"text":"那進一步的話就是前面的一個調查的部分我們已經排定了一個稽查的一個計畫那會逐步來做那這個部分我們也了解了這個其他國家的一個污染的一個案例的了解基本上地面水鐵的部分不用太大關心不用太大擔心那只要是附近有污染的類似這個機場的話我們要特別注意那我們已經有做過相關的一個"},{"start":494.733,"end":517.528,"text":"部長我給你看一下這個就是28年從來沒有調整的假使有污染飲用水最高是罰6萬假使有新興污染物污染的飲用水最高是處罰60萬這是民國86年訂的我不知道您有沒有機會可以到我們中南部我週末才到高雄跑行程你應該知道到處都是加水站吧"},{"start":518.513,"end":543.746,"text":"那你知道民眾會去加水的原因是什麼嗎報告委員其實目前我們環境部調查PFAS等等的污染只有地面水體只有一點點它就在機場的這個附近那至於說這個南部當然南部有些水質不好但是一部分是口感的問題啦但是其實水質的改善還是我們需要的目標那因為它真的要改善花的錢多不只六萬啦它其實要花可能要六百萬或六千萬以上所以要給它一點點時間"},{"start":544.286,"end":561.976,"text":"因為可能一般民眾很重視的比如說清道垃圾或是糞便 尿液化學物品 動物的殘骸等等污染水質28年前訂立的罰金額度最高不超過6萬來處分你覺得合理嗎你覺得你這個需要研議來修正調整嗎"},{"start":563.506,"end":576.131,"text":"對 報告委員 這個其實是一個樣但是有時候我們處理都是會按日來連罰啦所以我也不用擔心所以你覺得不用修改當然啦 其實只要公布的話其實對這些飲用水的提供者的單位壓力會更大"},{"start":577.765,"end":595.378,"text":"你覺得六萬壓力很大不是只要我們跟大家講說這邊水油不能喝那邊有問題好那我等一下我等一下給你看一下哪邊水有問題你應該記得之前其實有一個牽管造成這個水質的汙染所以當時呢我們全台北市就找了相關的人免費喔到"},{"start":596.198,"end":623.332,"text":"市立醫院去辦理抽血的檢查 檢查這些圈有沒有過量那這是我們辦公室從你們環境部拿到的資料你們最近呢有發現一間大學有一個神經毒性的本超標64倍然後被開罰但你們並沒有告訴國人這件事情那根據國家環境毒物研究中心裡列為本就是一個致癌物但是你們卻沒有發布這個消息請問為什麼"},{"start":626.842,"end":641.308,"text":"這個是一個簡易自來水那簡易自來水的意思就是由自己因為他這個自來水管線沒有到達他自己設置的那是以設置的一個處理基本上這個處理的設備附近我們有發現說他有堆置其他的一些物品"},{"start":642.088,"end":660.168,"text":"所以他的本是來自於他堆置其他的物品對 還有其他的相關的設施在那邊我們是覺得這個是一個問題所以我們後面去復驗的結果基本上已經都符合規定了那包含環保局的復驗還有檢疫治療所設置的管理單位那你們有關心這些師生的健康嗎"},{"start":662.677,"end":687.661,"text":"你們有關心這些失聲的健康嗎因為他們已經不知道暴露在這些神經毒性的本多久了這個部分因為對我們是覺得他是一個單一的一個事件因為這個可能還有這個相關的一個檢驗的問題都要重新再做一次確認所以我們復驗的結果基本上是符合規定所以你們復驗沒有那你們就覺得以前的這個本超標可能沒有對這群人造成危害"},{"start":691.155,"end":710.368,"text":"應該這麼說就是說這個本的這個項目基本上常常跟他的採樣也有很大的密切的關係所以我們也辦了復驗之後確定他沒有太大的問題那他們不用去接受一些檢查嗎這些已經暴露在這些本裡面的學校的工作人員"},{"start":713.146,"end":731.173,"text":"我們會再來跟這個科技大學做一個追蹤跟了解因為它基本上它是一個供水的這個簡易自然水的供水單位好我覺得這樣跟跟你們以前處理這個鉛重堵的事件有點落差太大了之後我會再跟你們追好嗎謝謝我再來了解謝謝謝謝好謝謝陳委員謝謝部長請回那接下來請"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":320,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時43分）主席、各位委員還有各位官員。我也想請彭部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長早。記得上次我們質詢過掛在您所屬的一個計畫──建構國家安全化學與韌性永續計畫，這個計畫總經費要花96億元，今（2025）年正式上路。我也記得之前曾經質詢過您，今年我們預計用3,000萬採購第一臺核生化災害處理車，另外再花9,000萬買3臺化學災害處理車，共計1億2,000萬元。我想請問，目前這個招標和採購的計畫進度是如何？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個是不是請我們化學署副署長來回應？因為我可能都看不到這個招標案。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，請。"],["陳副署長淑玲：謝謝委員。我們的「建構國家安全化學與韌性永續計畫」是跨部會合作的部分，剛剛委員關心的部分是跨部會的採購，採購權責都是在相關的部會裡面。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你被掛名了，現在不知道自己進度到哪裡……"],["陳副署長淑玲：不是掛名，因為每個部會有他的採購程序，現在是3月，正在進行這個標案的審查和採購作業。"],["陳委員菁徽：上次請教過部長，最後這些核生化處理車您要放在哪一個縣市政府，請問您現在溝通好了嗎？"],["陳副署長淑玲：核生化處理的部分是國防部，因為有除污的需求，我們大概在15年前跟國防部合作買了、訂製2部核污處理車，但是年代已經很久遠了，有些都已經老舊，所以他必須要再重新去做採購的部分。至於配在哪些縣市，因為是國防部主政、分配，不會放在縣市，應該是放在軍團的部分。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以其實你們化學署這邊是不清楚的？"],["陳副署長淑玲：不是……"],["陳委員菁徽：只是你們跟人家一起掛了一個計畫？"],["陳副署長淑玲：不，報告委員，不是不清楚，我們都有定期召開會議，我們上個月才跟部會開過會議，會了解他們的計畫。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以還在採購中？"],["陳副署長淑玲：是，但是……"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝。"],["陳副署長淑玲：我們對整個計畫是有做控管的，他整個進度都要報告到我們GPS的整個流程上去做控管，因為現在才3月份，它是每一季要做一次報告。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，那就請部長，謝謝。部長，你應該也看過非常多報導，因為現在新興污染物這件事情很獲得重視，而且超過六成民眾缺乏對它的認識。當然其中包括塑料或環境荷爾蒙，以及除草劑、農藥等等的殘留，但這些東西一旦在空氣中經過降雨到水裡面，它同樣也會污染我們的水質。今天您的報告大部分都講到空氣品質，但請問為什麼隻字未提空氣污染對水污染造成的防制及因應？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為目前臺灣的水質，例如我們關心的PFAS等等，其實來源是我們實際上的污染直接排放到水體裡面，例如PFAS的影響。我們國內就重金屬對於水質的影響並不是很嚴重，所以這個部分，因為我們談的是PM2.5空品的危害，那個掉到水裡面，其實目前來看的話影響不是很高。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，我就是要跟您聊PFAS。剛講到PFAS會從空氣排到水，水溫如果升高的時候，PFAS會揮發到空氣中；水溫如果降低的時候，PFAS就會留在水裡面。所以您不覺得PFAS這樣子的新興污染物，其實你也要列入你的空品評鑑項目之一嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：因為PFAS現在都是，我們國人過去用的例如消防器或食品的包裝，以那個為主，跟空氣裡面的量，我們其實在去年跟NASA合作有去量空氣中裡面的PFAS，它的濃度與跟亞洲的世界各國相比並不是特別高。"],["陳委員菁徽：可是你看，這是您之前、2023年環境部自己做的報告，你說2023年全臺灣你盤查起來有37座淨水場PFAS是超標的。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，其實沒有那麼多，我是不是請我們的水保司司長簡單回答一下？"],["王司長嶽斌：跟委員報告，剛才那37座，當時這個是美國在前年訂了一個全世界最嚴格的標準。事實上，這個標準基本上非常嚴格，幾乎是不能檢出。各國都在做PFAS相關的研究，那我們是在去年訂了這個相關的我們國內的標準，國內的標準基本上參考了世界衛生組織，包括鄰近國家，我們訂了這個標準之後目前的一個……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你的意思是美國的標準太嚴格，我們臺灣自己稍微下修一下？"],["王司長嶽斌：不能這麼說，基本上，因為美國有生產和製造PFAS，然後他的軍工廠、飛機廠相關的使用比較多，而且歷史比較久。PFAS是我們講的所謂難分解的有機物，它在環境中可能會比較久一點，美國因為長期使用而且製造，所以他的問題是相較而言比較嚴重。"],["陳委員菁徽：今年1月我發給您公文，請問這個會期你有沒有想要修法、一些環境部相關的法案，結果您回答我是沒有。現在問一下，請問飲用水管理條例，既然你都已經知道有37座淨水場致癌物超標，也許少於37座，那你認為二十年沒有修的飲用水管理條例，到現在都不用再去管它嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我們在去年11月25日就發布飲用水的水質標準條例，是我們環境部自己就可以發布，這個有發布了。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你不需要調整？"],["彭部長啓明：目前已經調整了，就PFAS，我們例如PFOA和PFOS要小於50ng/L。"],["陳委員菁徽：那你知道關於你的罰鍰有多久沒有修改了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：這個可能很久了。"],["王司長嶽斌：對，罰鍰額度基本上是回到飲用水管理條例母法的規定，基本上……"],["陳委員菁徽：我跟你說，28年沒有修改了，等一下我們來看一下你的罰鍰大概是多少。這個就是您剛剛講到的，2023年發現PFAS超標，但是你到2024年8月中旬才開始預告要制定相關的規範，所以您現在其實是把相關的規範調整到比美國稍微再寬鬆一點。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們是跟日本相同的，跟日本是一樣的標準。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，從預告到上路，最後2027年7月才會開始有處罰機制，所以2027年7月往前這樣子回推，是不是就算是一個免罰的空窗期？"],["彭部長啓明：其實不是，這是讓他們有機會去改善及緩衝，因為現在我們有幾個淨水場的確標準是比較高一點點，事實上它們一直逐漸在降低當中。"],["陳委員菁徽：它們為什麼需要這麼長的時間，可以跟大家解釋一下嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：其實要改善PFAS水質，它的製程、淨水設備是要大幅度改善，所以自來水公司希望他們自己要努力一點。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以要到2027年……"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們才能比較安心一點？"],["王司長嶽斌：跟委員報告，基本上我們曾經普查過，也參考了美國污染的一個案例的作法，我們會針對機場附近的淨水場為優先。調查結果我們的了解，複驗結果基本上都符合規定，這個部分沒有太大的問題。進一步的話就是前面的調查部分，我們已經排定了一個稽查計畫，會逐步做。這個部分我們也了解了其他國家的污染案例，基本上地面水體的部分不用太擔心，只要是附近有污染的類似機場的話，我們要特別注意，我們已經做過相關的調查。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，我給你看一下，這個就是28年從來沒有調整的規定，假使有污染飲用水，最高是罰6萬，假使有新興污染物污染了飲用水，最高是處罰60萬，這是民國86年訂的。我不知道您有沒有機會可以到我們中南部，我週末才到高雄跑行程，你應該知道到處都是加水站吧？"],["彭部長啓明：我知道。"],["陳委員菁徽：那你知道民眾會去加水的原因是什麼嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：其實目前環境部調查PFAS等等的污染，地面水體只有一點點，就在機場附近。至於南部，當然有些水質不好，一部分是口感的問題，但水質的改善還是我們期望的目標。因為真的要改善，花的錢多，不只6萬，可能要花600萬或6,000萬以上，所以要給他一點點時間。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為一般民眾很重視的比如說傾倒垃圾、糞便、尿液、化學物品、動物殘骸等等污染水質，28年前訂定的罰金額度最高不超過6萬，你覺得合理嗎？你覺得需要研議修正調整嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，雖然是這樣，但其實我們處理有時會按日連罰，所以委員不用擔心。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你覺得不用修改？"],["彭部長啓明：當然，其實只要公布的話，對於這些飲用水提供單位的壓力會更大。"],["陳委員菁徽：你覺得6萬壓力很大？"],["彭部長啓明：不是，只要我們跟大家講說這邊的水以後不能喝、這邊的水有問題，他們的壓力就會很大。"],["陳委員菁徽：我等一下給你看哪邊的水有問題。你應該記得之前曾有鉛管造成水質污染，當時臺北市政府就找相關人等免費到市立醫院去抽血檢查血鉛濃度是否過量。本席現在出示的是本辦公室從你們環境部拿到的資料，你們最近發現某所大學飲用水中的苯超標64倍並予開罰，苯是具神經毒性的物質，但是你們並沒有告訴國人這件事情。國家環境毒物研究中心將苯列為致癌物，但是你們卻沒有發布這個消息，請問為什麼？"],["王司長嶽斌：這是簡易自來水，簡易自來水就是自來水管線沒有到達該處而自己設置的，在這個自己設置的處理設備附近，我們有發現他有堆置其他的一些物品……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以這個苯是來自堆置的其他物品？"],["王司長嶽斌：對，還有其他的相關設施在那邊，我們也覺得這是一個問題，所以後面去複驗的結果基本上已經都符合規定了，包含環保局的複驗，還有簡易自來水的設置管理單位……"],["陳委員菁徽：你們有關心這些師生的健康嗎？因為他們已經不知道暴露在這些具神經毒性的苯當中多久了！"],["王司長嶽斌：這個部分我們覺得它是一個單一的事件，因為可能還有相關的檢驗問題都要重新再做一次確認，所以我們複驗的結果基本上是符合規定。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你們複驗沒有，你們就覺得以前的苯超標可能沒有對這群人造成危害？"],["王司長嶽斌：應該這麼說，就是說苯的這個項目基本上常常和採樣也有很密切的關係，所以我們也辦了複驗，確定它沒有太大的問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：這些已經暴露在苯裡面的學校人員不用去接受一些檢查嗎？"],["王司長嶽斌：我們會再和這個科技大學做個追蹤和瞭解，因為基本上它是一個簡易自來水的供水單位……"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我覺得這跟你們以前處理鉛中毒事件的做法有點落差太大，之後我會再跟你們追，好嗎？謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：好，委員，我再來瞭解。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長，請回。","接下來請盧縣一委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張啓楷","張智倫","楊曜","翁曉玲","劉建國","陳瑩","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","蘇清泉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、教育部、經濟部、台灣電力公司、台灣中油公司就「氣象變異致\n國內空品惡化，精進預報與跨部會應變作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00004"}}}