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\"end\": 96.926, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 96.926, \"end\": 97.046, \"score\": 0.716}, {\"word\": \"嘉\", \"start\": 97.046, \"end\": 97.386, \"score\": 0.758}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 97.386, \"end\": 97.606, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 97.606, \"end\": 97.886, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 97.886, \"end\": 98.126, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 98.126, \"end\": 98.326, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 98.326, \"end\": 98.826, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 98.826, \"end\": 98.986, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 98.986, \"end\": 99.347, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"灰\", \"start\": 99.347, \"end\": 99.367, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"濛\"}, {\"word\": \"濛\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 99.367, \"end\": 99.447, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 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123.775, \"end\": 124.455, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 124.455, \"end\": 124.575, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 124.575, \"end\": 124.695, \"score\": 0.715}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 124.695, \"end\": 124.895, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"峰\", \"start\": 124.895, \"end\": 125.916, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 125.916, \"end\": 126.256, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"哪\", \"start\": 126.256, \"end\": 127.036, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 127.036, \"end\": 127.416, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 127.416, \"end\": 127.556, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 127.556, \"end\": 127.716, \"score\": 0.724}, {\"word\": \"火\", \"start\": 127.716, \"end\": 127.816, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 127.816, \"end\": 127.876, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"廠\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 127.876, \"end\": 127.916, \"score\": 0.486}, {\"word\": \"路\", \"start\": 127.916, \"end\": 127.936, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"飄\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 127.936, \"end\": 128.056, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"嘉\", \"start\": 128.056, \"end\": 128.076, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"縣\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 130.445, \"end\": 157.295, \"text\": \"報告委員其實我們環境部有針對各個縣市它的來源境內跟境外或是它的境內可能是自己縣境外可能是別的縣市好那我就問你嘉義縣它的空污的主要來源嘉義縣因為它本身並沒有大型的排放源它還是來自於例如說在秋冬的時候來自於上游例如說來自雲林或是彰化台中一起北部的這樣會一起下來都有可能都會累積都會經過嘉義也會跑到那個屏東去\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 130.445, \"end\": 130.605, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 130.605, \"end\": 130.905, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 130.905, \"end\": 131.145, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 131.145, \"end\": 131.666, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"環\"}, {\"word\": \"境\", \"start\": 131.666, \"end\": 131.786, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 131.786, \"end\": 131.966, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 131.966, \"end\": 132.586, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 132.586, \"end\": 133.266, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"縣\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 133.266, \"end\": 133.466, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 133.466, \"end\": 133.606, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 133.606, \"end\": 133.946, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"源\", \"start\": 133.946, \"end\": 134.447, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"境\", \"start\": 134.447, \"end\": 134.727, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 134.727, \"end\": 134.927, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"境\", \"start\": 134.927, \"end\": 135.087, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 135.087, 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{\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 152.933, \"end\": 153.033, \"score\": 0.685}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 153.033, \"end\": 153.173, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 153.173, \"end\": 153.733, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 153.733, \"end\": 153.854, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 153.854, \"end\": 153.994, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 153.994, \"end\": 154.154, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 154.154, \"end\": 154.274, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 154.274, \"end\": 154.514, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"累\", \"start\": 154.514, \"end\": 154.854, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"積\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 154.854, \"end\": 155.394, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"嘉\", \"start\": 155.394, \"end\": 155.794, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", 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421.497, \"text\": \"那針對這個部分要怎麼改善?這個部長報告委員這個部分台中市環保局已經進行的這個集合了他至於如何處罰這個我還沒有清楚但是他們已經去查核了我們未來會監督那第二個呢是其實這個東西是可以再回收的當然我必須坦承委員因為這個是很早期的這個章健有快20年了那個是第一代那時候環評各方面針對這個的處理都沒有很清楚\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 397.21, \"end\": 397.87, \"score\": 0.718}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 397.87, \"end\": 398.07, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 398.07, \"end\": 398.59, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 398.59, \"end\": 398.75, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 398.75, \"end\": 399.011, \"score\": 0.701}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"改\", \"start\": 399.011, \"end\": 399.231, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"善\", \"start\": 399.231, \"end\": 399.931, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 399.931, \"end\": 400.071, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 400.071, \"end\": 400.971, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 400.971, \"end\": 401.491, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 401.491, \"end\": 401.591, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 401.591, \"end\": 401.791, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 401.791, \"end\": 401.951, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 401.951, \"end\": 402.191, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 402.191, \"end\": 402.452, \"score\": 0.714}, {\"word\": \"環\"}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 402.452, \"end\": 402.652, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"局\", \"start\": 402.652, \"end\": 402.812, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 402.812, \"end\": 403.352, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 403.352, \"end\": 403.552, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 403.552, \"end\": 403.992, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"集\", \"start\": 403.992, \"end\": 404.192, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 404.192, \"end\": 404.372, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 404.372, \"end\": 404.812, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 404.812, \"end\": 405.132, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 405.132, \"end\": 405.272, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 405.272, \"end\": 405.652, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 405.652, \"end\": 405.812, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 405.812, \"end\": 406.473, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"罰\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 406.473, \"end\": 406.873, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 406.873, \"end\": 406.973, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 406.973, \"end\": 407.093, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 407.093, \"end\": 407.273, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 407.273, \"end\": 407.393, \"score\": 0.775}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 407.393, \"end\": 407.513, \"score\": 0.759}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 407.513, \"end\": 407.593, \"score\": 0.518}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 407.593, \"end\": 407.773, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 407.773, \"end\": 408.013, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 408.013, \"end\": 408.173, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 408.173, \"end\": 408.373, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"核\", \"start\": 408.373, \"end\": 408.493, \"score\": 0.782}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 408.493, \"end\": 408.813, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 408.813, \"end\": 409.053, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"未\", \"start\": 409.053, \"end\": 409.674, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"監\"}, {\"word\": \"督\", \"start\": 409.674, \"end\": 410.094, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 410.094, \"end\": 410.234, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 410.234, \"end\": 410.334, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 410.334, \"end\": 410.534, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 410.534, \"end\": 410.694, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 410.694, \"end\": 410.934, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 410.934, \"end\": 411.554, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"東\"}, {\"word\": \"西\", \"start\": 411.554, \"end\": 411.694, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 411.694, \"end\": 411.794, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 411.794, \"end\": 411.894, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 411.894, \"end\": 411.994, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 411.994, \"end\": 412.174, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 412.174, \"end\": 412.394, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 412.394, \"end\": 412.574, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 412.574, \"end\": 413.055, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 413.055, \"end\": 413.215, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 413.215, \"end\": 413.375, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"必\", \"start\": 413.375, \"end\": 413.595, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"須\"}, {\"word\": \"坦\", \"start\": 413.595, \"end\": 413.755, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"承\", \"start\": 413.755, \"end\": 413.875, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 413.875, \"end\": 414.275, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 414.275, \"end\": 414.655, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 414.655, \"end\": 414.775, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 414.775, \"end\": 415.015, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"早\", \"start\": 415.015, \"end\": 415.275, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 415.275, \"end\": 415.415, \"score\": 0.765}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 415.415, \"end\": 415.775, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"章\", \"start\": 415.775, \"end\": 415.995, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"健\", \"start\": 415.995, \"end\": 416.175, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 416.175, \"end\": 416.375, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"快\", \"start\": 416.375, \"end\": 416.896, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 416.896, \"end\": 417.076, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 417.076, \"end\": 417.416, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 417.416, \"end\": 417.596, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 417.596, \"end\": 417.736, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 417.736, \"end\": 417.856, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 417.856, \"end\": 418.016, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"代\", \"start\": 418.016, \"end\": 418.196, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 418.196, \"end\": 418.456, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 418.456, \"end\": 419.016, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"環\"}, {\"word\": \"評\"}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 419.016, \"end\": 419.136, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 419.136, \"end\": 419.276, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 419.276, \"end\": 420.036, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 420.036, \"end\": 420.617, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 420.617, \"end\": 420.757, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 420.757, \"end\": 420.877, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 420.877, \"end\": 420.957, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 420.957, \"end\": 421.037, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 421.037, \"end\": 421.217, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 421.217, \"end\": 421.477, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 421.477, \"end\": 421.497, \"score\": 0.826}]}, {\"start\": 421.917, \"end\": 449.738, \"text\": \"那現在新的部分我們都會要求目的事業及主管機關一定要去做處理那台電呢其實現在他們也允諾他們會去做這個方面的重新的在去化的過程中去做準備那你這個什麼一個是這個什麼時候要清理完畢現在清理到什麼程度這個是我們會責成台電公司來進行這個清理完畢那他們有答應他們會來處理的多久要完成要限期完成啊這什麼時候要完成這個報告委員我們是不是請台電來回應好\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 421.917, \"end\": 422.037, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 422.037, \"end\": 422.317, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 422.317, \"end\": 422.498, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 422.498, \"end\": 422.638, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 422.638, \"end\": 422.738, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 422.738, \"end\": 423.238, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 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\"來\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,308 --> 00:00:26,488\n謝謝主席我們是不是有請彭部長好請部長王委員好部長好部長你們在今天的報告裡面提到說我們PM2.5這個不良比例其實是有改善的全國的平均值你們比較起來是有在下降但是如果你看到我們的中南部\n\n2\n00:00:27,308 --> 00:00:55,200\n事實上你這個報告你提出來是一個平均值你如果看到中南部它距離我們的目標PM2.5維持在這個每立方公尺12維克其實差距很大你可以看到去年台灣嚴重的空污排名本島的前三名第一名是台南市第二名是高雄市第三名就是嘉義縣\n\n3\n00:00:56,821 --> 00:01:17,243\n那這個一個台灣兩個世界你的報告呈現出來說哇大幅改善但是事實上在中南部的朋友沒有感覺啊空氣還是很糟啊特別是我們看到從2月25號一直到3月12號真的是全台的空氣拉警報\n\n4\n00:01:18,581 --> 00:01:39,527\n就是我自己出去我都覺得天啊我這個呼吸我每多呼吸一口氣我都覺得這個到底我的肺還可不可以承受得住幾乎是從北到南因為我現在每個禮拜都到嘉義去然後我以為到嘉義之後會改善台北這樣子嘉義會好一點沒有啊也是灰濛濛的一片\n\n5\n00:01:41,087 --> 00:02:08,076\n那我問一下部長請問中南部這樣子的一個空污沒有改善到底應該怎麼辦第一個我要問你的是它的污染源到底來自於哪裡以嘉義縣來看的話它本身的工廠沒有那麼多啊但為什麼嘉義縣的空氣這麼糟它的污染源你們有比較細部的去分析說中南部這些污染源到底來自哪裡嗎它的上峰處是哪裡是從台中火力發電廠一路飄到嘉義縣嗎\n\n6\n00:02:10,445 --> 00:02:37,295\n報告委員其實我們環境部有針對各個縣市它的來源境內跟境外或是它的境內可能是自己縣境外可能是別的縣市好那我就問你嘉義縣它的空污的主要來源嘉義縣因為它本身並沒有大型的排放源它還是來自於例如說在秋冬的時候來自於上游例如說來自雲林或是彰化台中一起北部的這樣會一起下來都有可能都會累積都會經過嘉義也會跑到那個屏東去\n\n7\n00:02:38,263 --> 00:03:01,316\n所以大概就是從中部往下帶那如果是這樣子那就是中部這邊要改善嗎的污染源要改善嗎但是也報告委員現在的污染源的比例其實有很多種例如說固定污染源或是移動源就汽機車其實現在我們的汽機車的在以全台灣來講汽機車的污染源已經超過了這種固定的污染源了\n\n8\n00:03:01,776 --> 00:03:16,539\n這個就是我接下來要問你的我有聽到你剛剛在報告裡面說交通源已經大於這個工業源了那這樣針對移動污染源已經高於工業污染源那這個部分你們有對策嗎像今天也沒有交通部出席啊\n\n9\n00:03:18,471 --> 00:03:33,439\n你這是要跨部會的啊那你們有沒有跟交通部去商議說我們針對這個移動污染源我們到底再進一步我們可以怎麼樣有效的去降低我們具體的措施跟計畫是什麼坦白講現在我看不到這個部分你今天報告其實也沒有提\n\n10\n00:03:34,740 --> 00:03:54,836\n對包委員這個是以台灣來說這是最困難一個案例那也跟委員報告我之前到韓國去他們遇到空污很嚴重的時候會發一個細胞簡訊那個簡訊裡面要大家不要開車到城裡面去那這個如果在台灣其實我相信大家反而是空污很嚴重我要開自己的車進去不要呼吸到空污這個是有很大的不一樣\n\n11\n00:03:55,196 --> 00:04:18,505\n所以我們會再想一下來協調一下如何在空污劑嚴重的時候這種所謂的移動的污染源如何讓它減少但是這個其實是跟民眾的生活是要改變是難度很高的也希望委員會來給我們支持好如果是這樣子的話我覺得你們應該好好去研議比較可行性的123的步驟是什麼而且必須進行社會溝通然後尋求大家的共識\n\n12\n00:04:19,025 --> 00:04:42,146\n比如說這個時候已經變成是移動污染源高於固定污染源所以不得不採取部分的措施那可能考量到大家交通的便利性或者是說以這個台北他捷運這麼的發達他或許他可以優先實施你說中南部他可能沒有車就不能出門了那你就要搭配就是你有公共運輸啊你有大型的可以讓大家接駁他才有可能自己不開車啊\n\n13\n00:04:43,067 --> 00:05:00,498\n要不然你那樣子的一個做法可能也達不到所以我希望這個部分針對移動污染源你們也是要去處理好不好那另外一個你們的那個空氣品質監測跟預報中心你什麼時候要上路你說你們要多增加這樣的一個中心它對於解決空污真的會有幫忙嗎\n\n14\n00:05:01,458 --> 00:05:18,454\n報告委員其實他其實原來的人力還是在那邊只不過移到這個大氣師但是呢因為我們過去監測跟預報到最後應變這兩個不一樣的事在作業我們希望統合在一起你現在是整合成一個整合成一個預報中心在我們大氣師的下面所以他可能這個有效性會比較快\n\n15\n00:05:20,356 --> 00:05:42,974\n決策的方式會更快然後因為我們大氣司未來也要做各種的因為我們有一些空品的預報還有很多外圍的團隊我們希望把它統合在一起更有效率那你什麼時候要上路因為我們現在這個是調整整個環境部的組織法所以我們也報到院裡面的那再等一段時間那現在我們已經開始在初步的在整合了所以希望幾個月內會趕快成立\n\n16\n00:05:44,815 --> 00:06:06,004\n好我希望這個空瓶的改善必須持續因為對中南部的民眾真的覺得快受不了了另外一個我要問的是這個環境污染的問題我們發展風電我們當然贊成但是這個竟然出現風機葉片在高美濕地躺了10年沒有人發現也不需要處理\n\n17\n00:06:07,504 --> 00:06:13,965\n那這樣的一個狀況在你們的環評裡面環評計畫書其實也沒有要求開發單位針對這一個風機他壽命到了他應該要怎麼樣的回收跟處理必須寫在他的計畫裡面也是付之缺乳所以這個案例一報導出來之後大家都覺得這個也太誇張了就是風機葉片廢棄在那邊躺了10年不穩不穩然後也都沒有處理好像是無政府狀態\n\n18\n00:06:37,210 --> 00:07:01,497\n那針對這個部分要怎麼改善?這個部長報告委員這個部分台中市環保局已經進行的這個集合了他至於如何處罰這個我還沒有清楚但是他們已經去查核了我們未來會監督那第二個呢是其實這個東西是可以再回收的當然我必須坦承委員因為這個是很早期的這個章健有快20年了那個是第一代那時候環評各方面針對這個的處理都沒有很清楚\n\n19\n00:07:01,917 --> 00:07:29,738\n那現在新的部分我們都會要求目的事業及主管機關一定要去做處理那台電呢其實現在他們也允諾他們會去做這個方面的重新的在去化的過程中去做準備那你這個什麼一個是這個什麼時候要清理完畢現在清理到什麼程度這個是我們會責成台電公司來進行這個清理完畢那他們有答應他們會來處理的多久要完成要限期完成啊這什麼時候要完成這個報告委員我們是不是請台電來回應好\n\n20\n00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:58,199\n報告委員我是台電專業總工程師溫環正那目前台中所發現的那個風機散落的葉片我們已經整理我們已經清理完畢了現在目前是放在我們的倉庫裡面暫置所以你們都已經移除了對對對現場已經清理乾淨了清理完畢了那現場的土地有沒有受到污染沒有都沒有是環保單位應該要再去確定一下吧是有嗎\n\n21\n00:08:00,213 --> 00:08:25,991\n這個是台中市環保局相關的事項我們現場已經把它清理完畢了已經完全清理完畢了好那另外一個我要追問那個就是未來在環評的部分因為我們現在風力發電了其實有非常多場然後呢現在也面臨到有一些已經這個要到期了那所以這個部分到底現在在整個環境部的環評裡面你們的這一些有關於這一些風機它事後的這個回收\n\n22\n00:08:28,012 --> 00:08:42,906\n你們有沒有在環評計畫裡面去要求他們要提出他們的計畫報告委員是有的現在已經有了嗎已經有了已經有名文你們是寫在哪裡的他如果要除役或是說要延役這個其實要主動去提對要主動提這些事情\n\n23\n00:08:43,186 --> 00:09:04,557\n那你們是在你們哪一個相關規定裡面已經有納進去你們有要求他在這一個後續的回收裡面要納進去我們在環評審查的時候審查結論裡頭就有一條會要求他就是說在除疫前一年要提出他的除疫計畫而且規定他這個葉片啊機具都要朝回收方面去處理這個部分我們已經\n\n24\n00:09:05,678 --> 00:09:31,223\n都有明文要求嘛現在每一場其實你們都提出要求只要是風力發電有經過環評環評都有這樣子的要求研議的部分也會要求研議目前並不是我們環評的要求我們環評其實依照現在認定標準是新設機組才必須要那研議的部分呢研議的部分就要回歸到目的事業主管機關依他的那個管理電業法去管理他\n\n25\n00:09:32,023 --> 00:09:48,119\n那為什麼這部分環境部不能研議都不需要經過你們只要經濟部就好我這邊跟委員報告一下我們環評的目的是等於是要減輕或預防它新設基礎造成的環境的影響所以在\n\n26\n00:09:49,140 --> 00:10:13,268\n它新設基礎的時候我們去考量它對環境的衝擊影響甚至它有沒有一些減輕的措施那至於它正式上路營運以後它是依照電業法是跟目的事業主管機關去申請所以後續的它的管理甚至是它的研議它是依照電業法去跟目的事業主管機關申請研議所以這個部分我們還是回歸到目的事業主管機關的法規去管理所以我們\n\n27\n00:10:14,168 --> 00:10:32,004\n所以你們這邊沒有有漏掉的我的意思是說他前期他可能並沒有提出這個計畫然後他又跟經濟部提出研議了然後之前他也沒有提出任何這個他的風機回收計畫有沒有這樣的一個案例我要求你們回去再清查一遍好不好應該是說有一些沒有經過環評的案子的話也許有可能\n\n28\n00:10:35,968 --> 00:10:55,007\n很早期的時候他是跟直接就跟那個目的事業主管我知道但這個就會遇到像這一場台電同樣的問題嘛早期的沒有嘛等到他要除役的時候他可能就是會不會又是直接放著然後就不處理嘛那這一個部分我希望經由這一次的事件就是整個的漏洞我們都把它補起來\n\n29\n00:10:55,968 --> 00:11:10,721\n不能因為我們要發展風力發電但是他事後的善後這些回收都沒有做到位又造成另外一次的環境的污染這個我們就不允許好不好而且部長部長應該也會跟那個經濟部會協調就是後面一定會做好這相關的問題部長我希望你們跟經濟部要求這個不要漏洞產生好不好沒問題好謝謝謝謝王也謝謝部長那接下來\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1308\t26488\t謝謝主席 我們是不是有請彭部長好 請部長王委員好部長好 部長你們在今天的報告裡面提到說我們PM2.5這個不良比例其實是有改善的全國的平均值你們比較起來是有在下降但是如果你看到我們的中南部\n27308\t55200\t事實上你這個報告你提出來是一個平均值你如果看到中南部它距離我們的目標PM2.5維持在這個每立方公尺12維克其實差距很大你可以看到去年台灣嚴重的空污排名本島的前三名第一名是台南市第二名是高雄市第三名就是嘉義縣\n56821\t77243\t那這個一個台灣兩個世界你的報告呈現出來說哇大幅改善但是事實上在中南部的朋友沒有感覺啊空氣還是很糟啊特別是我們看到從2月25號一直到3月12號真的是全台的空氣拉警報\n78581\t99527\t就是我自己出去我都覺得 天啊我這個呼吸 我每多呼吸一口氣我都覺得這個到底我的肺還可不可以承受得住幾乎是從北到南 因為我現在每個禮拜都到嘉義去然後我以為到嘉義之後會改善 台北這樣子嘉義會好一點沒有啊 也是灰濛濛的一片\n101087\t128076\t那我問一下部長 請問中南部這樣子的一個空污沒有改善 到底應該怎麼辦第一個我要問你的是 它的污染源到底來自於哪裡以嘉義縣來看的話 它本身的工廠沒有那麼多啊但為什麼嘉義縣的空氣這麼糟它的污染源 你們有比較細部的去分析說中南部這些污染源到底來自哪裡嗎它的上峰處是哪裡是從台中火力發電廠一路飄到嘉義縣嗎\n130445\t157295\t報告委員其實我們環境部有針對各個縣市它的來源境內跟境外或是它的境內可能是自己縣境外可能是別的縣市好那我就問你嘉義縣它的空污的主要來源嘉義縣因為它本身並沒有大型的排放源它還是來自於例如說在秋冬的時候來自於上游例如說來自雲林或是彰化台中一起北部的這樣會一起下來都有可能都會累積都會經過嘉義也會跑到那個屏東去\n158263\t181316\t所以大概就是從中部往下帶那如果是這樣子那就是中部這邊要改善嗎的污染源要改善嗎但是也報告委員現在的污染源的比例其實有很多種例如說固定污染源或是移動源就汽機車其實現在我們的汽機車的在以全台灣來講汽機車的污染源已經超過了這種固定的污染源了\n181776\t196539\t這個就是我接下來要問你的我有聽到你剛剛在報告裡面說交通源已經大於這個工業源了那這樣針對移動污染源已經高於工業污染源那這個部分你們有對策嗎像今天也沒有交通部出席啊\n198471\t213439\t你這是要跨部會的啊那你們有沒有跟交通部去商議說我們針對這個移動污染源我們到底再進一步我們可以怎麼樣有效的去降低我們具體的措施跟計畫是什麼坦白講現在我看不到這個部分你今天報告其實也沒有提\n214740\t234836\t對 包委員 這個是以台灣來說這是最困難一個案例那也跟委員報告我之前到韓國去他們遇到空污很嚴重的時候會發一個細胞簡訊那個簡訊裡面要大家不要開車到城裡面去那這個如果在台灣其實我相信大家反而是空污很嚴重我要開自己的車進去不要呼吸到空污這個是有很大的不一樣\n235196\t258505\t所以我們會再想一下來協調一下如何在空污劑嚴重的時候這種所謂的移動的污染源如何讓它減少但是這個其實是跟民眾的生活是要改變是難度很高的也希望委員會來給我們支持好如果是這樣子的話我覺得你們應該好好去研議比較可行性的123的步驟是什麼而且必須進行社會溝通然後尋求大家的共識\n259025\t282146\t比如說這個時候已經變成是移動污染源高於固定污染源所以不得不採取部分的措施那可能考量到大家交通的便利性或者是說以這個台北他捷運這麼的發達他或許他可以優先實施你說中南部他可能沒有車就不能出門了那你就要搭配就是你有公共運輸啊你有大型的可以讓大家接駁他才有可能自己不開車啊\n283067\t300498\t要不然你那樣子的一個做法可能也達不到所以我希望這個部分針對移動污染源你們也是要去處理 好不好那另外一個你們的那個空氣品質監測跟預報中心你什麼時候要上路 你說你們要多增加這樣的一個中心它對於解決空污真的會有幫忙嗎\n301458\t318454\t報告委員其實他其實原來的人力還是在那邊只不過移到這個大氣師但是呢因為我們過去監測跟預報到最後應變這兩個不一樣的事在作業我們希望統合在一起你現在是整合成一個整合成一個預報中心在我們大氣師的下面所以他可能這個有效性會比較快\n320356\t342974\t決策的方式會更快然後因為我們大氣司未來也要做各種的因為我們有一些空品的預報還有很多外圍的團隊我們希望把它統合在一起更有效率那你什麼時候要上路因為我們現在這個是調整整個環境部的組織法所以我們也報到院裡面的那再等一段時間那現在我們已經開始在初步的在整合了所以希望幾個月內會趕快成立\n344815\t366004\t好我希望這個空瓶的改善必須持續因為對中南部的民眾真的覺得快受不了了另外一個我要問的是這個環境污染的問題我們發展風電我們當然贊成但是這個竟然出現風機葉片在高美濕地躺了10年沒有人發現也不需要處理\n367504\t373965\t那這樣的一個狀況在你們的環評裡面環評計畫書其實也沒有要求開發單位針對這一個風機他壽命到了他應該要怎麼樣的回收跟處理必須寫在他的計畫裡面也是付之缺乳所以這個案例一報導出來之後大家都覺得這個也太誇張了就是風機葉片廢棄在那邊躺了10年不穩不穩然後也都沒有處理好像是無政府狀態\n397210\t421497\t那針對這個部分要怎麼改善?這個部長報告委員這個部分台中市環保局已經進行的這個集合了他至於如何處罰這個我還沒有清楚但是他們已經去查核了我們未來會監督那第二個呢是其實這個東西是可以再回收的當然我必須坦承委員因為這個是很早期的這個章健有快20年了那個是第一代那時候環評各方面針對這個的處理都沒有很清楚\n421917\t449738\t那現在新的部分我們都會要求目的事業及主管機關一定要去做處理那台電呢其實現在他們也允諾他們會去做這個方面的重新的在去化的過程中去做準備那你這個什麼一個是這個什麼時候要清理完畢現在清理到什麼程度這個是我們會責成台電公司來進行這個清理完畢那他們有答應他們會來處理的多久要完成要限期完成啊這什麼時候要完成這個報告委員我們是不是請台電來回應好\n453240\t478199\t報告委員我是台電專業總工程師溫環正那目前台中所發現的那個風機散落的葉片我們已經整理我們已經清理完畢了現在目前是放在我們的倉庫裡面暫置所以你們都已經移除了對對對現場已經清理乾淨了清理完畢了那現場的土地有沒有受到污染沒有都沒有是環保單位應該要再去確定一下吧是有嗎\n480213\t505991\t這個是台中市環保局相關的事項我們現場已經把它清理完畢了已經完全清理完畢了好那另外一個我要追問那個就是未來在環評的部分因為我們現在風力發電了其實有非常多場然後呢現在也面臨到有一些已經這個要到期了那所以這個部分到底現在在整個環境部的環評裡面你們的這一些有關於這一些風機它事後的這個回收\n508012\t522906\t你們有沒有在環評計畫裡面去要求他們要提出他們的計畫報告委員是有的現在已經有了嗎已經有了已經有名文你們是寫在哪裡的他如果要除役或是說要延役這個其實要主動去提對要主動提這些事情\n523186\t544557\t那你們是在你們哪一個相關規定裡面已經有納進去你們有要求他在這一個後續的回收裡面要納進去我們在環評審查的時候審查結論裡頭就有一條會要求他就是說在除疫前一年要提出他的除疫計畫而且規定他這個葉片啊機具都要朝回收方面去處理這個部分我們已經\n545678\t571223\t都有明文要求嘛 現在每一場其實你們都提出要求只要是風力發電有經過環評 環評都有這樣子的要求研議的部分也會要求研議目前並不是我們環評的要求我們環評其實依照現在認定標準是新設機組才必須要那研議的部分呢研議的部分就要回歸到目的事業主管機關依他的那個管理電業法去管理他\n572023\t588119\t那為什麼這部分環境部不能研議都不需要經過你們只要經濟部就好我這邊跟委員報告一下我們環評的目的是等於是要減輕或預防它新設基礎造成的環境的影響所以在\n589140\t613268\t它新設基礎的時候我們去考量它對環境的衝擊影響甚至它有沒有一些減輕的措施那至於它正式上路營運以後它是依照電業法是跟目的事業主管機關去申請所以後續的它的管理甚至是它的研議它是依照電業法去跟目的事業主管機關申請研議所以這個部分我們還是回歸到目的事業主管機關的法規去管理所以我們\n614168\t632004\t所以你們這邊沒有有漏掉的我的意思是說他前期他可能並沒有提出這個計畫然後他又跟經濟部提出研議了然後之前他也沒有提出任何這個他的風機回收計畫有沒有這樣的一個案例我要求你們回去再清查一遍好不好應該是說有一些沒有經過環評的案子的話也許有可能\n635968\t655007\t很早期的時候他是跟直接就跟那個目的事業主管我知道但這個就會遇到像這一場台電同樣的問題嘛早期的沒有嘛等到他要除役的時候他可能就是會不會又是直接放著然後就不處理嘛那這一個部分我希望經由這一次的事件就是整個的漏洞我們都把它補起來\n655968\t670721\t不能因為我們要發展風力發電但是他事後的善後這些回收都沒有做到位又造成另外一次的環境的污染這個我們就不允許好不好而且部長部長應該也會跟那個經濟部會協調就是後面一定會做好這相關的問題部長我希望你們跟經濟部要求這個不要漏洞產生好不好沒問題好謝謝謝謝王也謝謝部長那接下來\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我們是不是有請彭部長好 請部長王委員好部長好 部長你們在今天的報告裡面提到說我們PM2.5這個不良比例其實是有改善的全國的平均值你們比較起來是有在下降但是如果你看到我們的中南部\n事實上你這個報告你提出來是一個平均值你如果看到中南部它距離我們的目標PM2.5維持在這個每立方公尺12維克其實差距很大你可以看到去年台灣嚴重的空污排名本島的前三名第一名是台南市第二名是高雄市第三名就是嘉義縣\n那這個一個台灣兩個世界你的報告呈現出來說哇大幅改善但是事實上在中南部的朋友沒有感覺啊空氣還是很糟啊特別是我們看到從2月25號一直到3月12號真的是全台的空氣拉警報\n就是我自己出去我都覺得 天啊我這個呼吸 我每多呼吸一口氣我都覺得這個到底我的肺還可不可以承受得住幾乎是從北到南 因為我現在每個禮拜都到嘉義去然後我以為到嘉義之後會改善 台北這樣子嘉義會好一點沒有啊 也是灰濛濛的一片\n那我問一下部長 請問中南部這樣子的一個空污沒有改善 到底應該怎麼辦第一個我要問你的是 它的污染源到底來自於哪裡以嘉義縣來看的話 它本身的工廠沒有那麼多啊但為什麼嘉義縣的空氣這麼糟它的污染源 你們有比較細部的去分析說中南部這些污染源到底來自哪裡嗎它的上峰處是哪裡是從台中火力發電廠一路飄到嘉義縣嗎\n報告委員其實我們環境部有針對各個縣市它的來源境內跟境外或是它的境內可能是自己縣境外可能是別的縣市好那我就問你嘉義縣它的空污的主要來源嘉義縣因為它本身並沒有大型的排放源它還是來自於例如說在秋冬的時候來自於上游例如說來自雲林或是彰化台中一起北部的這樣會一起下來都有可能都會累積都會經過嘉義也會跑到那個屏東去\n所以大概就是從中部往下帶那如果是這樣子那就是中部這邊要改善嗎的污染源要改善嗎但是也報告委員現在的污染源的比例其實有很多種例如說固定污染源或是移動源就汽機車其實現在我們的汽機車的在以全台灣來講汽機車的污染源已經超過了這種固定的污染源了\n這個就是我接下來要問你的我有聽到你剛剛在報告裡面說交通源已經大於這個工業源了那這樣針對移動污染源已經高於工業污染源那這個部分你們有對策嗎像今天也沒有交通部出席啊\n你這是要跨部會的啊那你們有沒有跟交通部去商議說我們針對這個移動污染源我們到底再進一步我們可以怎麼樣有效的去降低我們具體的措施跟計畫是什麼坦白講現在我看不到這個部分你今天報告其實也沒有提\n對 包委員 這個是以台灣來說這是最困難一個案例那也跟委員報告我之前到韓國去他們遇到空污很嚴重的時候會發一個細胞簡訊那個簡訊裡面要大家不要開車到城裡面去那這個如果在台灣其實我相信大家反而是空污很嚴重我要開自己的車進去不要呼吸到空污這個是有很大的不一樣\n所以我們會再想一下來協調一下如何在空污劑嚴重的時候這種所謂的移動的污染源如何讓它減少但是這個其實是跟民眾的生活是要改變是難度很高的也希望委員會來給我們支持好如果是這樣子的話我覺得你們應該好好去研議比較可行性的123的步驟是什麼而且必須進行社會溝通然後尋求大家的共識\n比如說這個時候已經變成是移動污染源高於固定污染源所以不得不採取部分的措施那可能考量到大家交通的便利性或者是說以這個台北他捷運這麼的發達他或許他可以優先實施你說中南部他可能沒有車就不能出門了那你就要搭配就是你有公共運輸啊你有大型的可以讓大家接駁他才有可能自己不開車啊\n要不然你那樣子的一個做法可能也達不到所以我希望這個部分針對移動污染源你們也是要去處理 好不好那另外一個你們的那個空氣品質監測跟預報中心你什麼時候要上路 你說你們要多增加這樣的一個中心它對於解決空污真的會有幫忙嗎\n報告委員其實他其實原來的人力還是在那邊只不過移到這個大氣師但是呢因為我們過去監測跟預報到最後應變這兩個不一樣的事在作業我們希望統合在一起你現在是整合成一個整合成一個預報中心在我們大氣師的下面所以他可能這個有效性會比較快\n決策的方式會更快然後因為我們大氣司未來也要做各種的因為我們有一些空品的預報還有很多外圍的團隊我們希望把它統合在一起更有效率那你什麼時候要上路因為我們現在這個是調整整個環境部的組織法所以我們也報到院裡面的那再等一段時間那現在我們已經開始在初步的在整合了所以希望幾個月內會趕快成立\n好我希望這個空瓶的改善必須持續因為對中南部的民眾真的覺得快受不了了另外一個我要問的是這個環境污染的問題我們發展風電我們當然贊成但是這個竟然出現風機葉片在高美濕地躺了10年沒有人發現也不需要處理\n那這樣的一個狀況在你們的環評裡面環評計畫書其實也沒有要求開發單位針對這一個風機他壽命到了他應該要怎麼樣的回收跟處理必須寫在他的計畫裡面也是付之缺乳所以這個案例一報導出來之後大家都覺得這個也太誇張了就是風機葉片廢棄在那邊躺了10年不穩不穩然後也都沒有處理好像是無政府狀態\n那針對這個部分要怎麼改善?這個部長報告委員這個部分台中市環保局已經進行的這個集合了他至於如何處罰這個我還沒有清楚但是他們已經去查核了我們未來會監督那第二個呢是其實這個東西是可以再回收的當然我必須坦承委員因為這個是很早期的這個章健有快20年了那個是第一代那時候環評各方面針對這個的處理都沒有很清楚\n那現在新的部分我們都會要求目的事業及主管機關一定要去做處理那台電呢其實現在他們也允諾他們會去做這個方面的重新的在去化的過程中去做準備那你這個什麼一個是這個什麼時候要清理完畢現在清理到什麼程度這個是我們會責成台電公司來進行這個清理完畢那他們有答應他們會來處理的多久要完成要限期完成啊這什麼時候要完成這個報告委員我們是不是請台電來回應好\n報告委員我是台電專業總工程師溫環正那目前台中所發現的那個風機散落的葉片我們已經整理我們已經清理完畢了現在目前是放在我們的倉庫裡面暫置所以你們都已經移除了對對對現場已經清理乾淨了清理完畢了那現場的土地有沒有受到污染沒有都沒有是環保單位應該要再去確定一下吧是有嗎\n這個是台中市環保局相關的事項我們現場已經把它清理完畢了已經完全清理完畢了好那另外一個我要追問那個就是未來在環評的部分因為我們現在風力發電了其實有非常多場然後呢現在也面臨到有一些已經這個要到期了那所以這個部分到底現在在整個環境部的環評裡面你們的這一些有關於這一些風機它事後的這個回收\n你們有沒有在環評計畫裡面去要求他們要提出他們的計畫報告委員是有的現在已經有了嗎已經有了已經有名文你們是寫在哪裡的他如果要除役或是說要延役這個其實要主動去提對要主動提這些事情\n那你們是在你們哪一個相關規定裡面已經有納進去你們有要求他在這一個後續的回收裡面要納進去我們在環評審查的時候審查結論裡頭就有一條會要求他就是說在除疫前一年要提出他的除疫計畫而且規定他這個葉片啊機具都要朝回收方面去處理這個部分我們已經\n都有明文要求嘛 現在每一場其實你們都提出要求只要是風力發電有經過環評 環評都有這樣子的要求研議的部分也會要求研議目前並不是我們環評的要求我們環評其實依照現在認定標準是新設機組才必須要那研議的部分呢研議的部分就要回歸到目的事業主管機關依他的那個管理電業法去管理他\n那為什麼這部分環境部不能研議都不需要經過你們只要經濟部就好我這邊跟委員報告一下我們環評的目的是等於是要減輕或預防它新設基礎造成的環境的影響所以在\n它新設基礎的時候我們去考量它對環境的衝擊影響甚至它有沒有一些減輕的措施那至於它正式上路營運以後它是依照電業法是跟目的事業主管機關去申請所以後續的它的管理甚至是它的研議它是依照電業法去跟目的事業主管機關申請研議所以這個部分我們還是回歸到目的事業主管機關的法規去管理所以我們\n所以你們這邊沒有有漏掉的我的意思是說他前期他可能並沒有提出這個計畫然後他又跟經濟部提出研議了然後之前他也沒有提出任何這個他的風機回收計畫有沒有這樣的一個案例我要求你們回去再清查一遍好不好應該是說有一些沒有經過環評的案子的話也許有可能\n很早期的時候他是跟直接就跟那個目的事業主管我知道但這個就會遇到像這一場台電同樣的問題嘛早期的沒有嘛等到他要除役的時候他可能就是會不會又是直接放著然後就不處理嘛那這一個部分我希望經由這一次的事件就是整個的漏洞我們都把它補起來\n不能因為我們要發展風力發電但是他事後的善後這些回收都沒有做到位又造成另外一次的環境的污染這個我們就不允許好不好而且部長部長應該也會跟那個經濟部會協調就是後面一定會做好這相關的問題部長我希望你們跟經濟部要求這個不要漏洞產生好不好沒問題好謝謝謝謝王也謝謝部長那接下來\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.308 --> 00:26.488\n謝謝主席我們是不是有請彭部長好請部長王委員好部長好部長你們在今天的報告裡面提到說我們PM2.5這個不良比例其實是有改善的全國的平均值你們比較起來是有在下降但是如果你看到我們的中南部\n\n00:27.308 --> 00:55.200\n事實上你這個報告你提出來是一個平均值你如果看到中南部它距離我們的目標PM2.5維持在這個每立方公尺12維克其實差距很大你可以看到去年台灣嚴重的空污排名本島的前三名第一名是台南市第二名是高雄市第三名就是嘉義縣\n\n00:56.821 --> 01:17.243\n那這個一個台灣兩個世界你的報告呈現出來說哇大幅改善但是事實上在中南部的朋友沒有感覺啊空氣還是很糟啊特別是我們看到從2月25號一直到3月12號真的是全台的空氣拉警報\n\n01:18.581 --> 01:39.527\n就是我自己出去我都覺得天啊我這個呼吸我每多呼吸一口氣我都覺得這個到底我的肺還可不可以承受得住幾乎是從北到南因為我現在每個禮拜都到嘉義去然後我以為到嘉義之後會改善台北這樣子嘉義會好一點沒有啊也是灰濛濛的一片\n\n01:41.087 --> 02:08.076\n那我問一下部長請問中南部這樣子的一個空污沒有改善到底應該怎麼辦第一個我要問你的是它的污染源到底來自於哪裡以嘉義縣來看的話它本身的工廠沒有那麼多啊但為什麼嘉義縣的空氣這麼糟它的污染源你們有比較細部的去分析說中南部這些污染源到底來自哪裡嗎它的上峰處是哪裡是從台中火力發電廠一路飄到嘉義縣嗎\n\n02:10.445 --> 02:37.295\n報告委員其實我們環境部有針對各個縣市它的來源境內跟境外或是它的境內可能是自己縣境外可能是別的縣市好那我就問你嘉義縣它的空污的主要來源嘉義縣因為它本身並沒有大型的排放源它還是來自於例如說在秋冬的時候來自於上游例如說來自雲林或是彰化台中一起北部的這樣會一起下來都有可能都會累積都會經過嘉義也會跑到那個屏東去\n\n02:38.263 --> 03:01.316\n所以大概就是從中部往下帶那如果是這樣子那就是中部這邊要改善嗎的污染源要改善嗎但是也報告委員現在的污染源的比例其實有很多種例如說固定污染源或是移動源就汽機車其實現在我們的汽機車的在以全台灣來講汽機車的污染源已經超過了這種固定的污染源了\n\n03:01.776 --> 03:16.539\n這個就是我接下來要問你的我有聽到你剛剛在報告裡面說交通源已經大於這個工業源了那這樣針對移動污染源已經高於工業污染源那這個部分你們有對策嗎像今天也沒有交通部出席啊\n\n03:18.471 --> 03:33.439\n你這是要跨部會的啊那你們有沒有跟交通部去商議說我們針對這個移動污染源我們到底再進一步我們可以怎麼樣有效的去降低我們具體的措施跟計畫是什麼坦白講現在我看不到這個部分你今天報告其實也沒有提\n\n03:34.740 --> 03:54.836\n對包委員這個是以台灣來說這是最困難一個案例那也跟委員報告我之前到韓國去他們遇到空污很嚴重的時候會發一個細胞簡訊那個簡訊裡面要大家不要開車到城裡面去那這個如果在台灣其實我相信大家反而是空污很嚴重我要開自己的車進去不要呼吸到空污這個是有很大的不一樣\n\n03:55.196 --> 04:18.505\n所以我們會再想一下來協調一下如何在空污劑嚴重的時候這種所謂的移動的污染源如何讓它減少但是這個其實是跟民眾的生活是要改變是難度很高的也希望委員會來給我們支持好如果是這樣子的話我覺得你們應該好好去研議比較可行性的123的步驟是什麼而且必須進行社會溝通然後尋求大家的共識\n\n04:19.025 --> 04:42.146\n比如說這個時候已經變成是移動污染源高於固定污染源所以不得不採取部分的措施那可能考量到大家交通的便利性或者是說以這個台北他捷運這麼的發達他或許他可以優先實施你說中南部他可能沒有車就不能出門了那你就要搭配就是你有公共運輸啊你有大型的可以讓大家接駁他才有可能自己不開車啊\n\n04:43.067 --> 05:00.498\n要不然你那樣子的一個做法可能也達不到所以我希望這個部分針對移動污染源你們也是要去處理好不好那另外一個你們的那個空氣品質監測跟預報中心你什麼時候要上路你說你們要多增加這樣的一個中心它對於解決空污真的會有幫忙嗎\n\n05:01.458 --> 05:18.454\n報告委員其實他其實原來的人力還是在那邊只不過移到這個大氣師但是呢因為我們過去監測跟預報到最後應變這兩個不一樣的事在作業我們希望統合在一起你現在是整合成一個整合成一個預報中心在我們大氣師的下面所以他可能這個有效性會比較快\n\n05:20.356 --> 05:42.974\n決策的方式會更快然後因為我們大氣司未來也要做各種的因為我們有一些空品的預報還有很多外圍的團隊我們希望把它統合在一起更有效率那你什麼時候要上路因為我們現在這個是調整整個環境部的組織法所以我們也報到院裡面的那再等一段時間那現在我們已經開始在初步的在整合了所以希望幾個月內會趕快成立\n\n05:44.815 --> 06:06.004\n好我希望這個空瓶的改善必須持續因為對中南部的民眾真的覺得快受不了了另外一個我要問的是這個環境污染的問題我們發展風電我們當然贊成但是這個竟然出現風機葉片在高美濕地躺了10年沒有人發現也不需要處理\n\n06:07.504 --> 06:13.965\n那這樣的一個狀況在你們的環評裡面環評計畫書其實也沒有要求開發單位針對這一個風機他壽命到了他應該要怎麼樣的回收跟處理必須寫在他的計畫裡面也是付之缺乳所以這個案例一報導出來之後大家都覺得這個也太誇張了就是風機葉片廢棄在那邊躺了10年不穩不穩然後也都沒有處理好像是無政府狀態\n\n06:37.210 --> 07:01.497\n那針對這個部分要怎麼改善?這個部長報告委員這個部分台中市環保局已經進行的這個集合了他至於如何處罰這個我還沒有清楚但是他們已經去查核了我們未來會監督那第二個呢是其實這個東西是可以再回收的當然我必須坦承委員因為這個是很早期的這個章健有快20年了那個是第一代那時候環評各方面針對這個的處理都沒有很清楚\n\n07:01.917 --> 07:29.738\n那現在新的部分我們都會要求目的事業及主管機關一定要去做處理那台電呢其實現在他們也允諾他們會去做這個方面的重新的在去化的過程中去做準備那你這個什麼一個是這個什麼時候要清理完畢現在清理到什麼程度這個是我們會責成台電公司來進行這個清理完畢那他們有答應他們會來處理的多久要完成要限期完成啊這什麼時候要完成這個報告委員我們是不是請台電來回應好\n\n07:33.240 --> 07:58.199\n報告委員我是台電專業總工程師溫環正那目前台中所發現的那個風機散落的葉片我們已經整理我們已經清理完畢了現在目前是放在我們的倉庫裡面暫置所以你們都已經移除了對對對現場已經清理乾淨了清理完畢了那現場的土地有沒有受到污染沒有都沒有是環保單位應該要再去確定一下吧是有嗎\n\n08:00.213 --> 08:25.991\n這個是台中市環保局相關的事項我們現場已經把它清理完畢了已經完全清理完畢了好那另外一個我要追問那個就是未來在環評的部分因為我們現在風力發電了其實有非常多場然後呢現在也面臨到有一些已經這個要到期了那所以這個部分到底現在在整個環境部的環評裡面你們的這一些有關於這一些風機它事後的這個回收\n\n08:28.012 --> 08:42.906\n你們有沒有在環評計畫裡面去要求他們要提出他們的計畫報告委員是有的現在已經有了嗎已經有了已經有名文你們是寫在哪裡的他如果要除役或是說要延役這個其實要主動去提對要主動提這些事情\n\n08:43.186 --> 09:04.557\n那你們是在你們哪一個相關規定裡面已經有納進去你們有要求他在這一個後續的回收裡面要納進去我們在環評審查的時候審查結論裡頭就有一條會要求他就是說在除疫前一年要提出他的除疫計畫而且規定他這個葉片啊機具都要朝回收方面去處理這個部分我們已經\n\n09:05.678 --> 09:31.223\n都有明文要求嘛現在每一場其實你們都提出要求只要是風力發電有經過環評環評都有這樣子的要求研議的部分也會要求研議目前並不是我們環評的要求我們環評其實依照現在認定標準是新設機組才必須要那研議的部分呢研議的部分就要回歸到目的事業主管機關依他的那個管理電業法去管理他\n\n09:32.023 --> 09:48.119\n那為什麼這部分環境部不能研議都不需要經過你們只要經濟部就好我這邊跟委員報告一下我們環評的目的是等於是要減輕或預防它新設基礎造成的環境的影響所以在\n\n09:49.140 --> 10:13.268\n它新設基礎的時候我們去考量它對環境的衝擊影響甚至它有沒有一些減輕的措施那至於它正式上路營運以後它是依照電業法是跟目的事業主管機關去申請所以後續的它的管理甚至是它的研議它是依照電業法去跟目的事業主管機關申請研議所以這個部分我們還是回歸到目的事業主管機關的法規去管理所以我們\n\n10:14.168 --> 10:32.004\n所以你們這邊沒有有漏掉的我的意思是說他前期他可能並沒有提出這個計畫然後他又跟經濟部提出研議了然後之前他也沒有提出任何這個他的風機回收計畫有沒有這樣的一個案例我要求你們回去再清查一遍好不好應該是說有一些沒有經過環評的案子的話也許有可能\n\n10:35.968 --> 10:55.007\n很早期的時候他是跟直接就跟那個目的事業主管我知道但這個就會遇到像這一場台電同樣的問題嘛早期的沒有嘛等到他要除役的時候他可能就是會不會又是直接放著然後就不處理嘛那這一個部分我希望經由這一次的事件就是整個的漏洞我們都把它補起來\n\n10:55.968 --> 11:10.721\n不能因為我們要發展風力發電但是他事後的善後這些回收都沒有做到位又造成另外一次的環境的污染這個我們就不允許好不好而且部長部長應該也會跟那個經濟部會協調就是後面一定會做好這相關的問題部長我希望你們跟經濟部要求這個不要漏洞產生好不好沒問題好謝謝謝謝王也謝謝部長那接下來\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.308,"end":26.488,"text":"謝謝主席 我們是不是有請彭部長好 請部長王委員好部長好 部長你們在今天的報告裡面提到說我們PM2.5這個不良比例其實是有改善的全國的平均值你們比較起來是有在下降但是如果你看到我們的中南部"},{"start":27.308,"end":55.2,"text":"事實上你這個報告你提出來是一個平均值你如果看到中南部它距離我們的目標PM2.5維持在這個每立方公尺12維克其實差距很大你可以看到去年台灣嚴重的空污排名本島的前三名第一名是台南市第二名是高雄市第三名就是嘉義縣"},{"start":56.821,"end":77.243,"text":"那這個一個台灣兩個世界你的報告呈現出來說哇大幅改善但是事實上在中南部的朋友沒有感覺啊空氣還是很糟啊特別是我們看到從2月25號一直到3月12號真的是全台的空氣拉警報"},{"start":78.581,"end":99.527,"text":"就是我自己出去我都覺得 天啊我這個呼吸 我每多呼吸一口氣我都覺得這個到底我的肺還可不可以承受得住幾乎是從北到南 因為我現在每個禮拜都到嘉義去然後我以為到嘉義之後會改善 台北這樣子嘉義會好一點沒有啊 也是灰濛濛的一片"},{"start":101.087,"end":128.076,"text":"那我問一下部長 請問中南部這樣子的一個空污沒有改善 到底應該怎麼辦第一個我要問你的是 它的污染源到底來自於哪裡以嘉義縣來看的話 它本身的工廠沒有那麼多啊但為什麼嘉義縣的空氣這麼糟它的污染源 你們有比較細部的去分析說中南部這些污染源到底來自哪裡嗎它的上峰處是哪裡是從台中火力發電廠一路飄到嘉義縣嗎"},{"start":130.445,"end":157.295,"text":"報告委員其實我們環境部有針對各個縣市它的來源境內跟境外或是它的境內可能是自己縣境外可能是別的縣市好那我就問你嘉義縣它的空污的主要來源嘉義縣因為它本身並沒有大型的排放源它還是來自於例如說在秋冬的時候來自於上游例如說來自雲林或是彰化台中一起北部的這樣會一起下來都有可能都會累積都會經過嘉義也會跑到那個屏東去"},{"start":158.263,"end":181.316,"text":"所以大概就是從中部往下帶那如果是這樣子那就是中部這邊要改善嗎的污染源要改善嗎但是也報告委員現在的污染源的比例其實有很多種例如說固定污染源或是移動源就汽機車其實現在我們的汽機車的在以全台灣來講汽機車的污染源已經超過了這種固定的污染源了"},{"start":181.776,"end":196.539,"text":"這個就是我接下來要問你的我有聽到你剛剛在報告裡面說交通源已經大於這個工業源了那這樣針對移動污染源已經高於工業污染源那這個部分你們有對策嗎像今天也沒有交通部出席啊"},{"start":198.471,"end":213.439,"text":"你這是要跨部會的啊那你們有沒有跟交通部去商議說我們針對這個移動污染源我們到底再進一步我們可以怎麼樣有效的去降低我們具體的措施跟計畫是什麼坦白講現在我看不到這個部分你今天報告其實也沒有提"},{"start":214.74,"end":234.836,"text":"對 包委員 這個是以台灣來說這是最困難一個案例那也跟委員報告我之前到韓國去他們遇到空污很嚴重的時候會發一個細胞簡訊那個簡訊裡面要大家不要開車到城裡面去那這個如果在台灣其實我相信大家反而是空污很嚴重我要開自己的車進去不要呼吸到空污這個是有很大的不一樣"},{"start":235.196,"end":258.505,"text":"所以我們會再想一下來協調一下如何在空污劑嚴重的時候這種所謂的移動的污染源如何讓它減少但是這個其實是跟民眾的生活是要改變是難度很高的也希望委員會來給我們支持好如果是這樣子的話我覺得你們應該好好去研議比較可行性的123的步驟是什麼而且必須進行社會溝通然後尋求大家的共識"},{"start":259.025,"end":282.146,"text":"比如說這個時候已經變成是移動污染源高於固定污染源所以不得不採取部分的措施那可能考量到大家交通的便利性或者是說以這個台北他捷運這麼的發達他或許他可以優先實施你說中南部他可能沒有車就不能出門了那你就要搭配就是你有公共運輸啊你有大型的可以讓大家接駁他才有可能自己不開車啊"},{"start":283.067,"end":300.498,"text":"要不然你那樣子的一個做法可能也達不到所以我希望這個部分針對移動污染源你們也是要去處理 好不好那另外一個你們的那個空氣品質監測跟預報中心你什麼時候要上路 你說你們要多增加這樣的一個中心它對於解決空污真的會有幫忙嗎"},{"start":301.458,"end":318.454,"text":"報告委員其實他其實原來的人力還是在那邊只不過移到這個大氣師但是呢因為我們過去監測跟預報到最後應變這兩個不一樣的事在作業我們希望統合在一起你現在是整合成一個整合成一個預報中心在我們大氣師的下面所以他可能這個有效性會比較快"},{"start":320.356,"end":342.974,"text":"決策的方式會更快然後因為我們大氣司未來也要做各種的因為我們有一些空品的預報還有很多外圍的團隊我們希望把它統合在一起更有效率那你什麼時候要上路因為我們現在這個是調整整個環境部的組織法所以我們也報到院裡面的那再等一段時間那現在我們已經開始在初步的在整合了所以希望幾個月內會趕快成立"},{"start":344.815,"end":366.004,"text":"好我希望這個空瓶的改善必須持續因為對中南部的民眾真的覺得快受不了了另外一個我要問的是這個環境污染的問題我們發展風電我們當然贊成但是這個竟然出現風機葉片在高美濕地躺了10年沒有人發現也不需要處理"},{"start":367.504,"end":373.965,"text":"那這樣的一個狀況在你們的環評裡面環評計畫書其實也沒有要求開發單位針對這一個風機他壽命到了他應該要怎麼樣的回收跟處理必須寫在他的計畫裡面也是付之缺乳所以這個案例一報導出來之後大家都覺得這個也太誇張了就是風機葉片廢棄在那邊躺了10年不穩不穩然後也都沒有處理好像是無政府狀態"},{"start":397.21,"end":421.497,"text":"那針對這個部分要怎麼改善?這個部長報告委員這個部分台中市環保局已經進行的這個集合了他至於如何處罰這個我還沒有清楚但是他們已經去查核了我們未來會監督那第二個呢是其實這個東西是可以再回收的當然我必須坦承委員因為這個是很早期的這個章健有快20年了那個是第一代那時候環評各方面針對這個的處理都沒有很清楚"},{"start":421.917,"end":449.738,"text":"那現在新的部分我們都會要求目的事業及主管機關一定要去做處理那台電呢其實現在他們也允諾他們會去做這個方面的重新的在去化的過程中去做準備那你這個什麼一個是這個什麼時候要清理完畢現在清理到什麼程度這個是我們會責成台電公司來進行這個清理完畢那他們有答應他們會來處理的多久要完成要限期完成啊這什麼時候要完成這個報告委員我們是不是請台電來回應好"},{"start":453.24,"end":478.199,"text":"報告委員我是台電專業總工程師溫環正那目前台中所發現的那個風機散落的葉片我們已經整理我們已經清理完畢了現在目前是放在我們的倉庫裡面暫置所以你們都已經移除了對對對現場已經清理乾淨了清理完畢了那現場的土地有沒有受到污染沒有都沒有是環保單位應該要再去確定一下吧是有嗎"},{"start":480.213,"end":505.991,"text":"這個是台中市環保局相關的事項我們現場已經把它清理完畢了已經完全清理完畢了好那另外一個我要追問那個就是未來在環評的部分因為我們現在風力發電了其實有非常多場然後呢現在也面臨到有一些已經這個要到期了那所以這個部分到底現在在整個環境部的環評裡面你們的這一些有關於這一些風機它事後的這個回收"},{"start":508.012,"end":522.906,"text":"你們有沒有在環評計畫裡面去要求他們要提出他們的計畫報告委員是有的現在已經有了嗎已經有了已經有名文你們是寫在哪裡的他如果要除役或是說要延役這個其實要主動去提對要主動提這些事情"},{"start":523.186,"end":544.557,"text":"那你們是在你們哪一個相關規定裡面已經有納進去你們有要求他在這一個後續的回收裡面要納進去我們在環評審查的時候審查結論裡頭就有一條會要求他就是說在除疫前一年要提出他的除疫計畫而且規定他這個葉片啊機具都要朝回收方面去處理這個部分我們已經"},{"start":545.678,"end":571.223,"text":"都有明文要求嘛 現在每一場其實你們都提出要求只要是風力發電有經過環評 環評都有這樣子的要求研議的部分也會要求研議目前並不是我們環評的要求我們環評其實依照現在認定標準是新設機組才必須要那研議的部分呢研議的部分就要回歸到目的事業主管機關依他的那個管理電業法去管理他"},{"start":572.023,"end":588.119,"text":"那為什麼這部分環境部不能研議都不需要經過你們只要經濟部就好我這邊跟委員報告一下我們環評的目的是等於是要減輕或預防它新設基礎造成的環境的影響所以在"},{"start":589.14,"end":613.268,"text":"它新設基礎的時候我們去考量它對環境的衝擊影響甚至它有沒有一些減輕的措施那至於它正式上路營運以後它是依照電業法是跟目的事業主管機關去申請所以後續的它的管理甚至是它的研議它是依照電業法去跟目的事業主管機關申請研議所以這個部分我們還是回歸到目的事業主管機關的法規去管理所以我們"},{"start":614.168,"end":632.004,"text":"所以你們這邊沒有有漏掉的我的意思是說他前期他可能並沒有提出這個計畫然後他又跟經濟部提出研議了然後之前他也沒有提出任何這個他的風機回收計畫有沒有這樣的一個案例我要求你們回去再清查一遍好不好應該是說有一些沒有經過環評的案子的話也許有可能"},{"start":635.968,"end":655.007,"text":"很早期的時候他是跟直接就跟那個目的事業主管我知道但這個就會遇到像這一場台電同樣的問題嘛早期的沒有嘛等到他要除役的時候他可能就是會不會又是直接放著然後就不處理嘛那這一個部分我希望經由這一次的事件就是整個的漏洞我們都把它補起來"},{"start":655.968,"end":670.721,"text":"不能因為我們要發展風力發電但是他事後的善後這些回收都沒有做到位又造成另外一次的環境的污染這個我們就不允許好不好而且部長部長應該也會跟那個經濟部會協調就是後面一定會做好這相關的問題部長我希望你們跟經濟部要求這個不要漏洞產生好不好沒問題好謝謝謝謝王也謝謝部長那接下來"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":443,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時4分）謝謝主席，是不是有請彭部長？"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，你們在今天的報告裡面提到我們PM2.5不良比例其實是有改善的，全國的平均值你們比較起來是有在下降，但是如果你看到我們的中南部，事實上，你這個報告所提出來的是平均值，你看中南部距離我們的目標PM2.5維持在每立方公尺12微克，其實差距很大。你可以看到去年臺灣嚴重空污排名本島的前三名，第一名是臺南市，第二名是高雄市，第三名是嘉義縣，一個臺灣兩個世界，你的報告呈現出來說大幅改善，但事實上在中南部的朋友沒有感覺啊！空氣還是很糟啊！特別是我們看到從2月25號一直到3月12號，真的是全臺的空氣拉警報，就是我自己出去我都覺得天啊！我每多呼吸一口氣我都覺得我的肺到底還可不可以承受得住？幾乎是從北到南，因為我現在每個禮拜都到嘉義去，我以為到嘉義之後會改善，臺北這樣子，嘉義會好一點，沒有啊！也是灰濛濛的一片。","我問一下部長，請問中南部這樣子的空污沒有改善到底應該怎麼辦？第一個我要問你的是，它的污染源到底來自於哪裡？以嘉義縣來看的話，它本身的工廠沒有麼多，但為什麼嘉義縣的空氣這麼糟？針對它的污染源，你們有比較細部的去分析中南部這些污染源到底來自哪裡嗎？它的上風處是哪裡？是從臺中火力發電廠一路飄到嘉義縣嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實環境部有針對各個縣市的來源，包括境內跟境外，境內可能是自己縣，境外可能是別的縣市，或者是外來……"],["王委員育敏：我就問你嘉義縣空污的主要來源來自哪裡？"],["彭部長啓明：嘉義縣本身並沒有大型的排放源，例如在秋冬的時候來自於上游，例如來自雲林或彰化、臺中、北部的會一起下來，都有可能會累積，都會經過嘉義，也會跑到屏東去。"],["王委員育敏：所以大概就是從中部往下帶是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["王委員育敏：如果是這樣子，那就是中部這邊的污染源要改善啊！"],["彭部長啓明：對，但是也要向委員報告，現在污染源的比例其實有很多種，例如固定污染源或是汽機車等移動污染源，其實以全臺灣來講，現在汽機車的污染源已經超過固定污染源了。"],["王委員育敏：這個就是我接下來要問你的，我有聽到你剛剛在報告裡面說交通源已經大於工業源，針對移動污染源已經高於工業污染源，這個部分你們有對策嗎？像今天也沒有交通部出席啊！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實……"],["王委員育敏：這是要跨部會的啊！你們有沒有跟交通部商議針對移動污染源，到底我們可以如何進一步有效地去降低？我們具體的措施跟計畫是什麼？坦白講，現在我看不到這個部分，你今天報告其實也沒有提。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，以臺灣來說，這是最困難的一個案例。也跟委員報告，我之前到韓國去，他們遇到空污很嚴重的時候會發一個細胞簡訊，那個簡訊裡面要大家不要開車到城裡面去。如果這種情形發生在臺灣，我相信大家反而是空污很嚴重的時候要開自己的車進去，不要呼吸到空污，這個是有很大的不一樣。所以我們會再想一下、協調一下，看看如何在空污季嚴重的時候，如何讓移動污染源減少，但這個牽涉到民眾的生活要改變，其實難度是很高的，也希望委員未來給我們支持。"],["王委員育敏：如果是這樣子的話，我覺得你們應該好好去研議比較可行的一二三的步驟是什麼，而且必須進行社會溝通，然後尋求大家的共識。比如說，這個時候已經變成移動污染源高於固定污染源，所以不得不採取部分的措施，可能考量到大家交通的便利性，或者是以臺北捷運這麼的發達，或許可以優先實施。像中南部可能沒有車他就不能出門，那你就要搭配公共運輸，要有大型的公共運輸可以讓大家接駁，他才有可能自己不開車，要不然你樣子的作法可能也達不到。我希望針對移動污染源你們也要去處理，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["王委員育敏：另外，你們的空氣品質監測跟預報中心什麼時候要上路？你說你們要多增加這樣的中心，它對於解決空污真的會有幫忙嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實它原來的人力還是在那邊，只不過移到大氣司，因為我們過去監測跟預報到最後應變是兩個不一樣的司在作業，我們希望統合在一起。"],["王委員育敏：你現在是整合成一個？"],["彭部長啓明：整合成一個預報中心在我們大氣司的下面。"],["王委員育敏：所以它可能有效性會比較快？即時性……"],["彭部長啓明：決策的方式會更快，然後因為我們大氣司未來也要做各種的……因為我們有一些空品的預報，還有很多外圍的團隊，我們希望把它統合在一起，這樣會更有效率。"],["王委員育敏：那你什麼時候要上路？你們的整合工作。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為這是調整整個環境部的組織法，所以我們也報到院裡面，要再等一段時間，現在我們已經開始初步在整合了，希望幾個月內會趕快成立。"],["王委員育敏：好，空品的改善必須持續，因為中南部的民眾真的快受不了了。","另外一個我要問的是環境污染的問題，發展風電我們當然贊成，但是竟然出現風機葉片在高美溼地躺了十年，沒有人發現，也不需要處理，這樣的狀況在你們的環評裡面，環評計畫書其實也沒有要求開發單位，照理說，針對風機的壽命到了，他應該要怎麼樣的回收跟處理，必須寫在他的計畫裡面，結果也是付之闕如。所以這個案例一報導出來之後，大家都覺得這也太誇張了，就是風機葉片廢棄在那邊躺了十年，不聞不問，然後也都沒有處理，好像是無政府狀態。部長。針對這個部分要怎麼改善？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個部分臺中市環保局已經進行稽核，至於如何處罰我還不清楚，但是他們已經去查核了，我們未來會監督。第二個，其實這個東西是可以再回收的，當然我必須坦承，因為這是很早期的，將近有快二十年了，這個是第一代，那時候環評各方面針對這個的處理都沒有很清楚，現在新的部分我們都會要求目的事業主管機關一定要去處理，現在台電也允諾他們會重新針對這方面的去化過程做準備。"],["王委員育敏：這個什麼時候要清理完畢？現在清理到什麼程度？"],["彭部長啓明：我們會責成台電公司清理完畢，他們有答應他們會來處理。"],["王委員育敏：多久要完成？要限期完成啊！這什麼時候要完成？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們是不是請台電來回應？"],["王委員育敏：好。"],["温專業總工程師桓正：報告委員，我是台電專業總工程師温桓正。目前臺中所發現的風機散落葉片我們已經清理完畢了，現在是放在我們的倉庫裡面暫置。"],["王委員育敏：所以你們都已經移除了？"],["温專業總工程師桓正：對，現場已經清理完畢。"],["王委員育敏：現場的土地有沒有受到污染？"],["温專業總工程師桓正：沒有。"],["王委員育敏：都沒有？"],["温專業總工程師桓正：是。"],["王委員育敏：環保單位應該要再去確定一下吧！"],["温專業總工程師桓正：是。"],["王委員育敏：有嗎？"],["温專業總工程師桓正：這個是臺中市環保局相關的事項，我們現場已經把它清理完畢了。"],["王委員育敏：已經完全清理完畢了？"],["温專業總工程師桓正：是。"],["王委員育敏：好。另外，我要追問未來在環評的部分，因為現在風力發電其實有非常多場，現在也面臨到有一些已經要到期了，所以到底現在整個環境部的環評裡面，有關於這些風機事後的回收，你們有沒有在環評計畫裡面要求他們要提出計畫？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，是有的。"],["王委員育敏：現在已經有了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：已經有了。"],["王委員育敏：你們是寫在哪裡的相關規則？"],["彭部長啓明：它如果要除役或是延役，要主動提這些事情。"],["王委員育敏：你們是在哪一個相關規定裡面已經納進去你們要求他們在後續的回收裡面要納進來？"],["徐司長淑芷：報告委員，我們在環評審查的時候，審查結論裡頭就有一條要求他們在除役前一年要提出除役計畫，而且規定葉片、機具都要朝回收方面去處理，這個部分我們已經……"],["王委員育敏：都有明文要求嘛？"],["徐司長淑芷：對。"],["王委員育敏：現在每一場其實你們都有提出要求……"],["徐司長淑芷：只要是風力發電有經過環評，環評都有這樣子的要求。"],["王委員育敏：延役的時候也會要求？"],["徐司長淑芷：延役的部分目前並不是我們環評的要求，我們的環評其實依照現在認定標準是新設機組才必須要進行環評。"],["王委員育敏：那延役的部分呢？"],["徐司長淑芷：延役的部分就要回歸到目的事業主管機關依電業法去管理。"],["王委員育敏：為什麼延役這部分都不需要經過你們環境部，只要經濟部同意就好？"],["徐司長淑芷：跟委員報告一下，我們環評的目的等於是要減輕或預防新設機組造成的環境影響，所以在新設機組的時候，我們去考量它對環境的衝擊、影響，甚至有沒有一些減輕的措施。至於它正式上路營運以後，是依照電業法跟目的事業主管機關去申請，所以後續的管理、甚至延役是依照電業法去跟目的事業主管機關申請延役，這個部分我們還是回歸到目的事業主管機關的法規去管理，所以環評的部分是尊重……"],["王委員育敏：所以你們這邊沒有漏掉的？我的意思是，它在前期可能並沒有提出這個計畫，然後它又跟經濟部提出延役了，之前它也沒有提出任何風機回收計畫，有沒有這樣的案例？我要求你們回去再清查一遍，好不好？"],["徐司長淑芷：應該是說有一些沒有經過環評的案子，也許有可能，因為它是早年……"],["王委員育敏：這個部分要怎麼辦？"],["徐司長淑芷：很早期的時候它直接就跟目的事業主管機關去申請。"],["王委員育敏：我知道，這個就會遇到像這一場台電同樣的問題，早期的沒有，等到它要除役的時候，可能會不會又直接放著，然後就不處理？我希望經由這次的事件，我們把整個漏洞都補起來，不能因為我們要發展風力發電，但是事後的善後、回收都沒有做到位，又造成另外一次的環境污染，這個我們就不允許，好不好？"],["徐司長淑芷：了解。部長應該也會跟經濟部協調，後面一定會做好相關的問題。"],["王委員育敏：好。部長，我希望你們跟經濟部要求這個不要有漏洞產生，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請廖偉翔委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張啓楷","張智倫","楊曜","翁曉玲","劉建國","陳瑩","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","蘇清泉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、教育部、經濟部、台灣電力公司、台灣中油公司就「氣象變異致\n國內空品惡化，精進預報與跨部會應變作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00004"}}}