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207.402, \"end\": 233.192, \"text\": \"這個目前如果是政策環評推動這些東西其實當然能源政策是一項啦但是政策環評是一個事前的溝通它並對於個案是沒有強制力的所以部長但是問題就是這上面其實寫的還是贏不是得喔所以我意思就是說如果我們經濟部鴕鳥型態環境部也不管兩個部會都是鴕鳥型態的話那這樣算不算行政怠惰因為你剛剛也說你覺得應該要去溝通這件事情而且應該做這樣的政策環評嘛對不對\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 207.402, \"end\": 207.662, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 207.662, \"end\": 208.183, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 208.183, \"end\": 208.323, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 208.323, \"end\": 208.463, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 208.463, \"end\": 208.623, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 208.623, \"end\": 208.763, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"策\", \"start\": 208.763, \"end\": 209.203, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"環\"}, {\"word\": \"評\"}, {\"word\": \"推\", \"start\": 209.203, \"end\": 209.663, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 209.663, \"end\": 209.983, \"score\": 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{\"start\": 300.973, \"end\": 324.771, \"text\": \"所以我想要請教就是我剛剛說的就是他是你是主案主案的審可是你並沒有針對整件事情對環境的衝擊有一個更上位的所謂的政策環評喔所以我也想要請教一下那如果七接我們經濟部的代表七接接收站的數量設定是不是基於再生能源的達標跟產業用電零成長的前提請經濟部\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 300.973, \"end\": 301.153, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 301.153, \"end\": 301.974, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 301.974, \"end\": 302.094, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 302.094, \"end\": 302.234, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 302.234, \"end\": 302.554, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 302.554, \"end\": 302.874, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 302.874, \"end\": 302.995, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 302.995, \"end\": 303.215, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 303.215, \"end\": 303.755, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 303.755, \"end\": 303.875, 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0.926}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 324.27, \"end\": 324.39, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 324.39, \"end\": 324.611, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 324.611, \"end\": 324.751, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 324.751, \"end\": 324.771, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 329.193, \"end\": 351.918, \"text\": \"報告委員那有關這個天然氣接收站的這個興建那確實是依照我們這個能源轉型的這個政策的這個目標去去做這個相關的接收站的一個興建那所以這個那我想要請問那如果如果再生能源沒有達到36%的目標的話是否需要再增建接收站那請問要達標如果請問要達標的話要擴建多少才夠\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 329.193, \"end\": 329.293, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 329.293, \"end\": 329.713, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 329.713, \"end\": 329.973, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 329.973, \"end\": 331.174, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 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347.637, \"end\": 348.017, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 348.017, \"end\": 348.157, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 348.157, \"end\": 348.337, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"站\", \"start\": 348.337, \"end\": 350.437, \"score\": 0.782}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 350.437, \"end\": 350.557, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 350.557, \"end\": 350.657, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"達\"}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 350.657, \"end\": 350.817, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 350.817, \"end\": 350.937, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 350.937, \"end\": 351.117, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"達\"}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 351.117, \"end\": 351.277, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 351.277, \"end\": 351.618, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"擴\"}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 351.618, \"end\": 351.658, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 351.658, \"end\": 351.798, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 351.798, \"end\": 351.898, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 351.898, \"end\": 351.918, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}]}, {\"start\": 354.844, \"end\": 368.701, \"text\": \"目前我們天然氣發電的這個佔比是以50%的這個目標為是啦所以我剛剛就問說你們是不是基於再生能源的達標跟產業用電零成長的前提然後去設定這七個七座\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 354.844, \"end\": 355.064, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 355.064, \"end\": 355.385, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 355.385, \"end\": 355.525, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 355.525, \"end\": 355.645, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 355.645, \"end\": 356.126, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"氣\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 356.126, \"end\": 357.167, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": 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\"但這也讓人家質疑一件事是不是也是一種校正回歸的手段但是退一步說你如果覺得自動策戰這麼沒有用這麼有可能有很多誤差的話那為什麼環境部還要持續投入大量的資金升級PM2.5的自動監測設備這不就自相矛盾嗎如果你剛剛講的這些東西都不可靠那為什麼要投資這不是很好笑嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 647.043, \"end\": 647.403, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 647.403, \"end\": 647.623, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 647.623, \"end\": 647.863, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 647.863, \"end\": 648.063, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"疑\", \"start\": 648.063, \"end\": 648.243, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 648.243, \"end\": 648.363, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 648.363, \"end\": 648.583, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 648.583, \"end\": 649.424, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 649.424, \"end\": 649.524, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 649.524, \"end\": 649.624, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 649.624, \"end\": 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\"end\": 659.446, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 659.446, \"end\": 659.746, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"投\", \"start\": 659.746, \"end\": 659.886, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"入\", \"start\": 659.886, \"end\": 660.046, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 660.046, \"end\": 660.166, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 660.166, \"end\": 660.306, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 660.306, \"end\": 660.566, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"金\", \"start\": 660.566, \"end\": 660.786, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"升\", \"start\": 660.786, \"end\": 661.006, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"級\"}, {\"word\": \"P\", \"start\": 661.006, \"end\": 661.166, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"M\", \"start\": 661.166, \"end\": 661.766, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 661.766, \"end\": 662.006, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"自\", 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{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 666.187, \"end\": 666.487, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"東\"}, {\"word\": \"西\", \"start\": 666.487, \"end\": 666.807, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 666.807, \"end\": 666.967, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 666.967, \"end\": 667.067, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 667.067, \"end\": 667.267, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"靠\", \"start\": 667.267, \"end\": 667.987, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 667.987, \"end\": 668.267, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 668.267, \"end\": 668.408, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 668.408, \"end\": 668.508, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"投\", \"start\": 668.508, \"end\": 669.388, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 669.388, \"end\": 669.528, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 669.528, \"end\": 669.688, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 669.688, \"end\": 669.808, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 669.808, \"end\": 669.968, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"笑\", \"start\": 669.968, \"end\": 669.988, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 670.828, \"end\": 688.624, \"text\": \"既然不可靠如果他又可靠的話不可靠你為什麼要投資那可靠的話你為什麼要拒絕使用他的這個數據嗎報委員手動跟自動在國際上有它一個標準現在大概都是以手動為主那自動的話為什麼還要增設因為其實它有一個趨勢型的有意義\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"既\", \"start\": 670.828, \"end\": 670.948, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 670.948, \"end\": 671.088, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 671.088, \"end\": 671.208, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 671.208, \"end\": 671.369, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"靠\", \"start\": 671.369, \"end\": 672.47, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 672.47, \"end\": 672.59, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 672.59, \"end\": 672.67, \"score\": 0.231}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 672.67, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 677.974, \"end\": 679.496, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"手\", \"start\": 679.496, \"end\": 679.876, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 679.876, \"end\": 680.076, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 680.076, \"end\": 680.517, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 680.517, \"end\": 681.077, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"際\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 681.077, \"end\": 681.277, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 681.277, \"end\": 681.397, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 681.397, \"end\": 681.557, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 681.557, \"end\": 682.018, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 682.018, \"end\": 682.338, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 682.338, \"end\": 682.498, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 682.498, \"end\": 682.618, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 682.618, \"end\": 682.738, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 682.738, \"end\": 682.859, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 682.859, \"end\": 682.979, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 682.979, \"end\": 683.119, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"手\", \"start\": 683.119, \"end\": 683.679, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 683.679, \"end\": 684.14, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 684.14, \"end\": 684.66, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 684.66, \"end\": 684.94, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 684.94, \"end\": 685.301, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 685.301, \"end\": 685.581, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 685.581, \"end\": 685.721, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"增\", \"start\": 685.721, \"end\": 686.141, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 686.141, \"end\": 686.402, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 686.402, \"end\": 686.642, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 686.642, \"end\": 686.842, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 686.842, \"end\": 686.982, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 686.982, \"end\": 687.623, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"趨\"}, {\"word\": \"勢\"}, {\"word\": \"型\", \"start\": 687.623, \"end\": 687.843, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 687.843, \"end\": 688.443, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 688.443, \"end\": 688.604, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 688.604, \"end\": 688.624, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"義\"}]}, {\"start\": 689.184, \"end\": 700.88, \"text\": \"而且我們透過這個手動跟自動的這個所謂的這個修正之後其實會更真實到結果但是手動跟自動這兩個數值其實我們在應變裡面我們會同步來看但是它代表是不一樣的意義的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 689.184, \"end\": 689.284, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"且\", \"start\": 689.284, \"end\": 689.384, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 689.384, \"end\": 689.625, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"透\", \"start\": 689.625, \"end\": 690.125, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"手\", \"start\": 690.125, \"end\": 690.406, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 690.406, \"end\": 690.546, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 690.546, \"end\": 690.846, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 690.846, \"end\": 691.467, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 691.467, \"end\": 691.707, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"謂\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 691.707, \"end\": 692.128, 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695.292, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 695.292, \"end\": 695.452, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 695.452, \"end\": 696.474, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"值\", \"start\": 696.474, \"end\": 696.694, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 696.694, \"end\": 696.934, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 696.934, \"end\": 697.155, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 697.155, \"end\": 697.795, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"變\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 697.795, \"end\": 698.216, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 698.216, \"end\": 698.536, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 698.536, \"end\": 698.697, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"步\", \"start\": 698.697, \"end\": 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702.411, \"end\": 721.705, \"text\": \"那你公布的數據你還是只選擇用手動測試沒錯那這樣子是真的會讓國人比較安心嗎但是那個是國際上認可標準的數字就很像說有一家國外公司他公布說我們台灣的PM2.5的數字跟他就不一樣他那個是屬於自動型的而且很便宜的那這個反而會造成很大的誤解\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 702.411, \"end\": 702.551, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 702.551, \"end\": 702.931, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 702.931, \"end\": 703.091, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"布\", \"start\": 703.091, \"end\": 703.191, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 703.191, \"end\": 703.631, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 703.631, \"end\": 703.852, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 703.852, \"end\": 704.292, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 704.292, \"end\": 704.432, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"擇\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 704.432, \"end\": 704.592, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"手\", \"start\": 704.592, \"end\": 705.373, 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{\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 769.836, \"end\": 769.936, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 769.936, \"end\": 770.096, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 770.096, \"end\": 770.637, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 770.637, \"end\": 770.797, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"廖\", \"start\": 770.797, \"end\": 770.897, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 770.897, \"end\": 770.957, \"score\": 0.66}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 770.957, \"end\": 770.977, \"score\": 0.101}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,208 --> 00:00:20,373\n謝謝主席有請彭部長好請部長待會打呼了抱歉在這邊做個宣告等一下請待會邱正興委員執行完畢之後我們休息十分鐘好謝謝請繼續\n\n2\n00:00:23,595 --> 00:00:44,761\n部長好那想要請教目前全台的這個規劃已經規劃7座天然氣接收站那包含台中港的這5街台塑的6街等新增的站體那暫時然而我們的政府好像從未針對全台接收站的總量進行一個上位的政策的環評\n\n3\n00:00:46,241 --> 00:01:10,197\n僅是以個案的方式審查所以導致各接收站的累積性的環境衝擊完全沒有納入評估那請問部長在沒有進行全台的這個全台性的政策環評的這個狀況下要如何確保這個七座的接收站不會對於我們西部的沿海生態系比如說白海豚、珊瑚郊區造成不可逆的破壞\n\n4\n00:01:11,258 --> 00:01:37,285\n因為部長我們台灣的西部海岸大約有460公里就有7座天然氣的接收站平均每65公里平均每65公里就有一座天然氣接收站那依照2024年這個GGIT的資料全球興建中及規劃興建天然氣的接收站大概目前是只有中國大陸印度和越南比我們多\n\n5\n00:01:37,845 --> 00:01:54,755\n那換算下來我們現在應該算是全球的天然氣接收在密度最高的國家所以想要請教部長或者是我們經濟部的代表全球數據在這裡難道我們還是要繼續不用依照目前環評法第26條進行政策環評嗎\n\n6\n00:01:58,018 --> 00:02:13,608\n因為政策環評需要目的事業局管機關跟我們提出那我環境部無法對這個直接提那你認為是不是應該要如果說因為這個移煤轉氣是我們過去這個政府的這個政策這個是既定的政策\n\n7\n00:02:13,868 --> 00:02:33,623\n沒關係部長你覺得是不是目前進行到這個階段雖然目的世界主管機關沒有提出那以你環境部的角度你是否認為應該要進行這個所謂的政策環評包委員其實如果各種的例如說太陽能的發展能源的發展如果有一個政策環評讓社會可以有充分的共識我們當然歡迎但是也非您支持嘛\n\n8\n00:02:34,063 --> 00:02:58,082\n其實你支持應該要但是我們也支持這種以煤轉氣因為其實我們過去燃煤其實造成風物比較嚴重我剛剛問的是兩件事你不能問A答B我就問說你支不支持你認不認為這個事情已經讓我們台灣算是西部海岸我們的密度最高接收器的密度最高天然氣接收站的密度最高是不是應該要你是不是支持應該要做所謂的政策環評\n\n9\n00:02:59,003 --> 00:03:20,240\n報委員因為還有一個也跟我們報委像新加坡大概95%也都是燒天然氣啊沒關係部長我想要問的就是依照我國的狀況啊我跟你說政策政府政策環境影響評估作業辦法的第三條規定下列有這個政策有影響環境之餘者應實施環境影響評估嘛那其中第五款的內容可否請我們部長唸出來啊這個\n\n10\n00:03:27,402 --> 00:03:53,192\n這個目前如果是政策環評推動這些東西其實當然能源政策是一項啦但是政策環評是一個事前的溝通它並對於個案是沒有強制力的所以部長但是問題就是這上面其實寫的還是贏不是得喔所以我意思就是說如果我們經濟部鴕鳥型態環境部也不管兩個部會都是鴕鳥型態的話那這樣算不算行政怠惰因為你剛剛也說你覺得應該要去溝通這件事情而且應該做這樣的政策環評嘛對不對\n\n11\n00:03:55,004 --> 00:04:18,109\n如果說有更多的溝通當然是好事但是這個不會影響到個別的影響因為政策環比我覺得會耶為什麼以五街為例喔台電規劃在台中港外面就是現在有這個台灣媽祖與寶玉聯盟已經提出白海豚誤闖港區致死案例顯示既有四街還有台中港擴建與五街的疊加效應可能超出生態的承載力\n\n12\n00:04:20,009 --> 00:04:37,521\n那所以我剛剛講的就是因為目前為止我們現行都是逐岸審查模式可能沒有辦法去評估區域性的生態衝擊尤其是多個戰體發生的時候所以另外經濟部宣稱七階接收站完工後天然氣進口量將從\n\n13\n00:04:40,482 --> 00:04:59,307\n2000萬噸提升至3900萬噸以滿足非核家園政策下燃氣發電佔比50%的目標但是這也不是我講的中興大學也研究指出若再生能源進度延宕可能過度依賴天然氣將使接收站的負載率長期超標也反正所謂供氣風險\n\n14\n00:05:00,973 --> 00:05:24,771\n所以我想要請教就是我剛剛說的就是他是你是主案主案的審可是你並沒有針對整件事情對環境的衝擊有一個更上位的所謂的政策環評喔所以我也想要請教一下那如果七接我們經濟部的代表七接接收站的數量設定是不是基於再生能源的達標跟產業用電零成長的前提請經濟部\n\n15\n00:05:29,193 --> 00:05:51,918\n報告委員那有關這個天然氣接收站的這個興建那確實是依照我們這個能源轉型的這個政策的這個目標去去做這個相關的接收站的一個興建那所以這個那我想要請問那如果如果再生能源沒有達到36%的目標的話是否需要再增建接收站那請問要達標如果請問要達標的話要擴建多少才夠\n\n16\n00:05:54,844 --> 00:06:08,701\n目前我們天然氣發電的這個佔比是以50%的這個目標為是啦所以我剛剛就問說你們是不是基於再生能源的達標跟產業用電零成長的前提然後去設定這七個七座\n\n17\n00:06:11,058 --> 00:06:38,467\n欸再生能源部分是另外再生能源大概20%的這個目標沒有反過來講就是說如果再生能源沒有達標那你不夠你會不會要再增加所謂的天然氣的部分就各有各的一個目標要去努力去實施所以嘛那你還是沒回答我問題嘛所以我要講的事情就是部長啊就是如果沒有經過政策環評那只是為了達到數字而盲目開發又沒辦法說出到底可不可以達標然後說兩邊都要努力達標那最後你沒有達標的話\n\n18\n00:06:39,307 --> 00:07:06,007\n那對於我們環境的衝擊會是什麼對於這個政策的環評有沒有去做一個全方位的檢視我覺得這就是我很想表達的所以我是想要說如果我們還是不面對不去做這件事情的話民進黨現在執政你們現在執政的做法就是是不是就各個突破我就單一個點單一個點點來看那這樣子可能真的會忽視掉整個政策對於我們環境的衝擊如果整體來看的因為它可能有疊加的效應嘛\n\n19\n00:07:06,767 --> 00:07:22,613\n所以因為如果不做的話那是不是這個評估作業辦法也可以就廢掉不要用了所以我要講的事情是要請部長認真考慮不只是五接而是全台的這個接收站跟除氣場的累積性的環評報告跟總量管制的方案\n\n20\n00:07:23,717 --> 00:07:43,149\n不要讓我們台灣的海岸淪為天然氣接收站的這個競逐場或讓整個西部海岸成為能源的犧牲帶我們希望可以有一個讓社會更安心知道說你們在做整個所謂這個能源轉型政策的時候它到底整體對於我們的社會對於我們的環境會有多大的衝擊部長我要表達這個\n\n21\n00:07:44,912 --> 00:08:04,967\n可以嗎好謝謝委員的意見那我們會納入參考因為這個其實目前的整個天然氣以氣轉煤是我們這個目前的基地的一個政策啦那至於說五街因為我們沒有收到這個他們的經濟部提出來的所以經濟部應該要提出來或是你應該去溝通他們提出來吧是吧因為不然你環境部這不就是對於\n\n22\n00:08:06,108 --> 00:08:22,538\n環境部很重要的主要業務嘛你整個能源政策或是整個政策的這個環境評估這應該是對於我們台灣國人也很重要的一件事情對鮑委員其實以這個使用把這個煤淘汰掉我相信這個對我們整個環境有我完全是贊同的嘛\n\n23\n00:08:22,898 --> 00:08:44,266\n但是我的意思就是說因為你這個接收站你的規劃到底對我們衝擊有多少然後以及你現在再生能源沒有達標的話那你的天然氣接收站是不是要再增加這一切都可能對於我們環境評估有不同的結果這個部分我就是要提醒部長我覺得你們真的要認真考慮去做這個所謂的政策環評比較上位的政策環評好嗎\n\n24\n00:08:45,046 --> 00:09:02,931\n好謝謝委員的建議謝謝部長另外一件事情第二件事就是環境部日前有公布我們去年的空氣品質的檢測結果截至去年11月底全台平均2.5的平均濃度為12.5微克立方公尺所以較前年的13.7有所改善\n\n25\n00:09:03,951 --> 00:09:11,145\n但是目前為止我有看到環團在質疑目前全台的法定手動PM2.5策戰僅有31處而自動策戰有78處\n\n26\n00:09:16,178 --> 00:09:44,241\n那環境部卻排除了自動測站的數據只接受手動站的數據而根據環團的分析這個檢視全台的自動測站PM2.5的資料台澎金馬所有的空品區PM2.5的年均值實際是14.2微克地方公尺高於環境部公布的數字也特別在高雄全台十大空品最糟的自動監測站中有八站都在高雄\n\n27\n00:09:45,134 --> 00:09:59,703\n那官方手動測站顯示17.4微克而自動測站顯示是18.23微克所以這個問題就是這樣部長為何不使用所有可用的監測數據來呈現完整的空氣品質的圖像\n\n28\n00:10:02,213 --> 00:10:19,450\n這不就是會讓人家質疑說是不是為了要讓我們PM2.5的數值被低估讓環境部可以選擇性的使用這些數據有意想要美化空氣污染的嚴重度誤導公眾的認知好包委員我是學這個的我可以跟委員說明第一個\n\n29\n00:10:20,311 --> 00:10:45,883\n如果我已經在家裡面洗澡的時候你放一個PM2.5你洗澡的時候馬上就超標因為水氣會讓這個小粒子變大所以其實我們這個為什麼要變手動它會把這個水氣濾掉才是真實的PM2.5的危害謝謝部長謝謝你講到我知道你們環境部曾經表示過自動測站容易受水氣空氣中的鹽分影響所以手動測站能夠修正污染物素值的偏差\n\n30\n00:10:47,043 --> 00:11:09,988\n但這也讓人家質疑一件事是不是也是一種校正回歸的手段但是退一步說你如果覺得自動策戰這麼沒有用這麼有可能有很多誤差的話那為什麼環境部還要持續投入大量的資金升級PM2.5的自動監測設備這不就自相矛盾嗎如果你剛剛講的這些東西都不可靠那為什麼要投資這不是很好笑嗎\n\n31\n00:11:10,828 --> 00:11:28,624\n既然不可靠如果他又可靠的話不可靠你為什麼要投資那可靠的話你為什麼要拒絕使用他的這個數據嗎報委員手動跟自動在國際上有它一個標準現在大概都是以手動為主那自動的話為什麼還要增設因為其實它有一個趨勢型的有意義\n\n32\n00:11:29,184 --> 00:11:40,880\n而且我們透過這個手動跟自動的這個所謂的這個修正之後其實會更真實到結果但是手動跟自動這兩個數值其實我們在應變裡面我們會同步來看但是它代表是不一樣的意義的\n\n33\n00:11:42,411 --> 00:12:01,705\n那你公布的數據你還是只選擇用手動測試沒錯那這樣子是真的會讓國人比較安心嗎但是那個是國際上認可標準的數字就很像說有一家國外公司他公布說我們台灣的PM2.5的數字跟他就不一樣他那個是屬於自動型的而且很便宜的那這個反而會造成很大的誤解\n\n34\n00:12:02,202 --> 00:12:30,170\n所以你投入自動的這個監測工具是有其他的使用目的就對了對兩個都可以同時看但是我相信未來的話自動的設備如果可以把環境或水氣的因素濾除的話其實它會更準確的這個還要等可能要再等一段時間所以你們現在投資的就是希望說這個新的東西是可以更加準確所以未來你們才可以採納對兩個到時候我相信兩個應該都有一個交叉點那個時候我們就不用了好謝謝喔那簡單來講\n\n35\n00:12:31,970 --> 00:12:50,977\n謝謝部長那我們還是要最後提醒一下我希望部長這邊可以真實的呈現數據我認為應該要誠實呈現數據然後誠實面對我們問題還要務實解決我們的問題因為包含你剛剛也有提到所謂能源結構的問題到底可不可以達成這些也都有關於我們今天討論的題目謝謝部長好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝廖委員謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9208\t20373\t謝謝主席 有請彭部長好 請部長待會打呼了 抱歉在這邊做個宣告等一下請待會邱正興委員執行完畢之後我們休息十分鐘好 謝謝 請繼續\n23595\t44761\t部長好 那想要請教目前全台的這個規劃已經規劃7座天然氣接收站那包含台中港的這5街台塑的6街等新增的站體那暫時然而我們的政府好像從未針對全台接收站的總量進行一個上位的政策的環評\n46241\t70197\t僅是以個案的方式審查所以導致各接收站的累積性的環境衝擊完全沒有納入評估那請問部長在沒有進行全台的這個全台性的政策環評的這個狀況下要如何確保這個七座的接收站不會對於我們西部的沿海生態系比如說白海豚、珊瑚郊區造成不可逆的破壞\n71258\t97285\t因為部長我們台灣的西部海岸大約有460公里就有7座天然氣的接收站平均每65公里平均每65公里就有一座天然氣接收站那依照2024年這個GGIT的資料全球興建中及規劃興建天然氣的接收站大概目前是只有中國大陸印度和越南比我們多\n97845\t114755\t那換算下來我們現在應該算是全球的天然氣接收在密度最高的國家所以想要請教部長或者是我們經濟部的代表全球數據在這裡難道我們還是要繼續不用依照目前環評法第26條進行政策環評嗎\n118018\t133608\t因為政策環評需要目的事業局管機關跟我們提出那我環境部無法對這個直接提那你認為是不是應該要如果說因為這個移煤轉氣是我們過去這個政府的這個政策這個是既定的政策\n133868\t153623\t沒關係部長你覺得是不是目前進行到這個階段雖然目的世界主管機關沒有提出那以你環境部的角度你是否認為應該要進行這個所謂的政策環評包委員其實如果各種的例如說太陽能的發展能源的發展如果有一個政策環評讓社會可以有充分的共識我們當然歡迎但是也非您支持嘛\n154063\t178082\t其實你支持應該要但是我們也支持這種以煤轉氣因為其實我們過去燃煤其實造成風物比較嚴重我剛剛問的是兩件事你不能問A答B我就問說你支不支持你認不認為這個事情已經讓我們台灣算是西部海岸我們的密度最高接收器的密度最高天然氣接收站的密度最高是不是應該要你是不是支持應該要做所謂的政策環評\n179003\t200240\t報委員因為還有一個也跟我們報委像新加坡大概95%也都是燒天然氣啊沒關係部長我想要問的就是依照我國的狀況啊我跟你說政策政府政策環境影響評估作業辦法的第三條規定下列有這個政策有影響環境之餘者應實施環境影響評估嘛那其中第五款的內容可否請我們部長唸出來啊這個\n207402\t233192\t這個目前如果是政策環評推動這些東西其實當然能源政策是一項啦但是政策環評是一個事前的溝通它並對於個案是沒有強制力的所以部長但是問題就是這上面其實寫的還是贏不是得喔所以我意思就是說如果我們經濟部鴕鳥型態環境部也不管兩個部會都是鴕鳥型態的話那這樣算不算行政怠惰因為你剛剛也說你覺得應該要去溝通這件事情而且應該做這樣的政策環評嘛對不對\n235004\t258109\t如果說有更多的溝通當然是好事但是這個不會影響到個別的影響因為政策環比我覺得會耶 為什麼以五街為例喔台電規劃在台中港外面就是現在有這個台灣媽祖與寶玉聯盟已經提出白海豚誤闖港區致死案例顯示既有四街還有台中港擴建與五街的疊加效應可能超出生態的承載力\n260009\t277521\t那所以我剛剛講的就是因為目前為止我們現行都是逐岸審查模式可能沒有辦法去評估區域性的生態衝擊尤其是多個戰體發生的時候所以另外經濟部宣稱七階接收站完工後天然氣進口量將從\n280482\t299307\t2000萬噸提升至3900萬噸以滿足非核家園政策下燃氣發電佔比50%的目標但是這也不是我講的中興大學也研究指出若再生能源進度延宕可能過度依賴天然氣將使接收站的負載率長期超標也反正所謂供氣風險\n300973\t324771\t所以我想要請教就是我剛剛說的就是他是你是主案主案的審可是你並沒有針對整件事情對環境的衝擊有一個更上位的所謂的政策環評喔所以我也想要請教一下那如果七接我們經濟部的代表七接接收站的數量設定是不是基於再生能源的達標跟產業用電零成長的前提請經濟部\n329193\t351918\t報告委員那有關這個天然氣接收站的這個興建那確實是依照我們這個能源轉型的這個政策的這個目標去去做這個相關的接收站的一個興建那所以這個那我想要請問那如果如果再生能源沒有達到36%的目標的話是否需要再增建接收站那請問要達標如果請問要達標的話要擴建多少才夠\n354844\t368701\t目前我們天然氣發電的這個佔比是以50%的這個目標為是啦所以我剛剛就問說你們是不是基於再生能源的達標跟產業用電零成長的前提然後去設定這七個七座\n371058\t398467\t欸再生能源部分是另外再生能源大概20%的這個目標沒有反過來講就是說如果再生能源沒有達標那你不夠你會不會要再增加所謂的天然氣的部分就各有各的一個目標要去努力去實施所以嘛那你還是沒回答我問題嘛所以我要講的事情就是部長啊就是如果沒有經過政策環評那只是為了達到數字而盲目開發又沒辦法說出到底可不可以達標然後說兩邊都要努力達標那最後你沒有達標的話\n399307\t426007\t那對於我們環境的衝擊會是什麼對於這個政策的環評有沒有去做一個全方位的檢視我覺得這就是我很想表達的所以我是想要說如果我們還是不面對不去做這件事情的話民進黨現在執政你們現在執政的做法就是是不是就各個突破我就單一個點單一個點點來看那這樣子可能真的會忽視掉整個政策對於我們環境的衝擊如果整體來看的因為它可能有疊加的效應嘛\n426767\t442613\t所以因為如果不做的話那是不是這個評估作業辦法也可以就廢掉不要用了所以我要講的事情是要請部長認真考慮不只是五接而是全台的這個接收站跟除氣場的累積性的環評報告跟總量管制的方案\n443717\t463149\t不要讓我們台灣的海岸淪為天然氣接收站的這個競逐場或讓整個西部海岸成為能源的犧牲帶我們希望可以有一個讓社會更安心知道說你們在做整個所謂這個能源轉型政策的時候它到底整體對於我們的社會對於我們的環境會有多大的衝擊部長我要表達這個\n464912\t484967\t可以嗎好 謝謝委員的意見那我們會納入參考因為這個其實目前的整個天然氣以氣轉煤是我們這個目前的基地的一個政策啦那至於說五街因為我們沒有收到這個他們的經濟部提出來的所以經濟部應該要提出來或是你應該去溝通他們提出來吧是吧 因為不然你環境部這不就是對於\n486108\t502538\t環境部很重要的主要業務嘛你整個能源政策或是整個政策的這個環境評估這應該是對於我們台灣國人也很重要的一件事情對 鮑委員其實以這個使用把這個煤淘汰掉我相信這個對我們整個環境有我完全是贊同的嘛\n502898\t524266\t但是我的意思就是說因為你這個接收站你的規劃到底對我們衝擊有多少然後以及你現在再生能源沒有達標的話那你的天然氣接收站是不是要再增加這一切都可能對於我們環境評估有不同的結果這個部分我就是要提醒部長我覺得你們真的要認真考慮去做這個所謂的政策環評比較上位的政策環評好嗎\n525046\t542931\t好 謝謝委員的建議 謝謝部長 另外一件事情 第二件事就是環境部日前有公布我們去年的空氣品質的檢測結果截至去年11月底全台平均2.5的平均濃度為12.5微克立方公尺所以較前年的13.7有所改善\n543951\t551145\t但是目前為止我有看到環團在質疑目前全台的法定手動PM2.5策戰僅有31處而自動策戰有78處\n556178\t584241\t那環境部卻排除了自動測站的數據只接受手動站的數據而根據環團的分析這個檢視全台的自動測站PM2.5的資料台澎金馬所有的空品區PM2.5的年均值實際是14.2微克地方公尺高於環境部公布的數字也特別在高雄全台十大空品最糟的自動監測站中有八站都在高雄\n585134\t599703\t那官方手動測站顯示17.4微克而自動測站顯示是18.23微克所以這個問題就是這樣部長為何不使用所有可用的監測數據來呈現完整的空氣品質的圖像\n602213\t619450\t這不就是會讓人家質疑說是不是為了要讓我們PM2.5的數值被低估讓環境部可以選擇性的使用這些數據有意想要美化空氣污染的嚴重度誤導公眾的認知好 包委員我是學這個的我可以跟委員說明第一個\n620311\t645883\t如果我已經在家裡面洗澡的時候你放一個PM2.5你洗澡的時候馬上就超標因為水氣會讓這個小粒子變大所以其實我們這個為什麼要變手動它會把這個水氣濾掉才是真實的PM2.5的危害謝謝部長 謝謝你講到 我知道你們環境部曾經表示過自動測站容易受水氣空氣中的鹽分影響所以手動測站能夠修正污染物素值的偏差\n647043\t669988\t但這也讓人家質疑一件事是不是也是一種校正回歸的手段但是退一步說你如果覺得自動策戰這麼沒有用這麼有可能有很多誤差的話那為什麼環境部還要持續投入大量的資金升級PM2.5的自動監測設備這不就自相矛盾嗎如果你剛剛講的這些東西都不可靠那為什麼要投資這不是很好笑嗎\n670828\t688624\t既然不可靠如果他又可靠的話不可靠你為什麼要投資那可靠的話你為什麼要拒絕使用他的這個數據嗎報委員手動跟自動在國際上有它一個標準現在大概都是以手動為主那自動的話為什麼還要增設因為其實它有一個趨勢型的有意義\n689184\t700880\t而且我們透過這個手動跟自動的這個所謂的這個修正之後其實會更真實到結果但是手動跟自動這兩個數值其實我們在應變裡面我們會同步來看但是它代表是不一樣的意義的\n702411\t721705\t那你公布的數據你還是只選擇用手動測試沒錯那這樣子是真的會讓國人比較安心嗎但是那個是國際上認可標準的數字就很像說有一家國外公司他公布說我們台灣的PM2.5的數字跟他就不一樣他那個是屬於自動型的而且很便宜的那這個反而會造成很大的誤解\n722202\t750170\t所以你投入自動的這個監測工具是有其他的使用目的就對了對 兩個都可以同時看但是我相信未來的話自動的設備如果可以把環境或水氣的因素濾除的話其實它會更準確的這個還要等可能要再等一段時間所以你們現在投資的就是希望說這個新的東西是可以更加準確所以未來你們才可以採納對 兩個到時候我相信兩個應該都有一個交叉點那個時候我們就不用了好 謝謝喔那簡單來講\n751970\t770977\t謝謝部長那我們還是要最後提醒一下我希望部長這邊可以真實的呈現數據我認為應該要誠實呈現數據然後誠實面對我們問題還要務實解決我們的問題因為包含你剛剛也有提到所謂能源結構的問題到底可不可以達成這些也都有關於我們今天討論的題目謝謝部長好 謝謝委員謝謝好 謝謝廖委員 謝謝部長\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請彭部長好 請部長待會打呼了 抱歉在這邊做個宣告等一下請待會邱正興委員執行完畢之後我們休息十分鐘好 謝謝 請繼續\n部長好 那想要請教目前全台的這個規劃已經規劃7座天然氣接收站那包含台中港的這5街台塑的6街等新增的站體那暫時然而我們的政府好像從未針對全台接收站的總量進行一個上位的政策的環評\n僅是以個案的方式審查所以導致各接收站的累積性的環境衝擊完全沒有納入評估那請問部長在沒有進行全台的這個全台性的政策環評的這個狀況下要如何確保這個七座的接收站不會對於我們西部的沿海生態系比如說白海豚、珊瑚郊區造成不可逆的破壞\n因為部長我們台灣的西部海岸大約有460公里就有7座天然氣的接收站平均每65公里平均每65公里就有一座天然氣接收站那依照2024年這個GGIT的資料全球興建中及規劃興建天然氣的接收站大概目前是只有中國大陸印度和越南比我們多\n那換算下來我們現在應該算是全球的天然氣接收在密度最高的國家所以想要請教部長或者是我們經濟部的代表全球數據在這裡難道我們還是要繼續不用依照目前環評法第26條進行政策環評嗎\n因為政策環評需要目的事業局管機關跟我們提出那我環境部無法對這個直接提那你認為是不是應該要如果說因為這個移煤轉氣是我們過去這個政府的這個政策這個是既定的政策\n沒關係部長你覺得是不是目前進行到這個階段雖然目的世界主管機關沒有提出那以你環境部的角度你是否認為應該要進行這個所謂的政策環評包委員其實如果各種的例如說太陽能的發展能源的發展如果有一個政策環評讓社會可以有充分的共識我們當然歡迎但是也非您支持嘛\n其實你支持應該要但是我們也支持這種以煤轉氣因為其實我們過去燃煤其實造成風物比較嚴重我剛剛問的是兩件事你不能問A答B我就問說你支不支持你認不認為這個事情已經讓我們台灣算是西部海岸我們的密度最高接收器的密度最高天然氣接收站的密度最高是不是應該要你是不是支持應該要做所謂的政策環評\n報委員因為還有一個也跟我們報委像新加坡大概95%也都是燒天然氣啊沒關係部長我想要問的就是依照我國的狀況啊我跟你說政策政府政策環境影響評估作業辦法的第三條規定下列有這個政策有影響環境之餘者應實施環境影響評估嘛那其中第五款的內容可否請我們部長唸出來啊這個\n這個目前如果是政策環評推動這些東西其實當然能源政策是一項啦但是政策環評是一個事前的溝通它並對於個案是沒有強制力的所以部長但是問題就是這上面其實寫的還是贏不是得喔所以我意思就是說如果我們經濟部鴕鳥型態環境部也不管兩個部會都是鴕鳥型態的話那這樣算不算行政怠惰因為你剛剛也說你覺得應該要去溝通這件事情而且應該做這樣的政策環評嘛對不對\n如果說有更多的溝通當然是好事但是這個不會影響到個別的影響因為政策環比我覺得會耶 為什麼以五街為例喔台電規劃在台中港外面就是現在有這個台灣媽祖與寶玉聯盟已經提出白海豚誤闖港區致死案例顯示既有四街還有台中港擴建與五街的疊加效應可能超出生態的承載力\n那所以我剛剛講的就是因為目前為止我們現行都是逐岸審查模式可能沒有辦法去評估區域性的生態衝擊尤其是多個戰體發生的時候所以另外經濟部宣稱七階接收站完工後天然氣進口量將從\n2000萬噸提升至3900萬噸以滿足非核家園政策下燃氣發電佔比50%的目標但是這也不是我講的中興大學也研究指出若再生能源進度延宕可能過度依賴天然氣將使接收站的負載率長期超標也反正所謂供氣風險\n所以我想要請教就是我剛剛說的就是他是你是主案主案的審可是你並沒有針對整件事情對環境的衝擊有一個更上位的所謂的政策環評喔所以我也想要請教一下那如果七接我們經濟部的代表七接接收站的數量設定是不是基於再生能源的達標跟產業用電零成長的前提請經濟部\n報告委員那有關這個天然氣接收站的這個興建那確實是依照我們這個能源轉型的這個政策的這個目標去去做這個相關的接收站的一個興建那所以這個那我想要請問那如果如果再生能源沒有達到36%的目標的話是否需要再增建接收站那請問要達標如果請問要達標的話要擴建多少才夠\n目前我們天然氣發電的這個佔比是以50%的這個目標為是啦所以我剛剛就問說你們是不是基於再生能源的達標跟產業用電零成長的前提然後去設定這七個七座\n欸再生能源部分是另外再生能源大概20%的這個目標沒有反過來講就是說如果再生能源沒有達標那你不夠你會不會要再增加所謂的天然氣的部分就各有各的一個目標要去努力去實施所以嘛那你還是沒回答我問題嘛所以我要講的事情就是部長啊就是如果沒有經過政策環評那只是為了達到數字而盲目開發又沒辦法說出到底可不可以達標然後說兩邊都要努力達標那最後你沒有達標的話\n那對於我們環境的衝擊會是什麼對於這個政策的環評有沒有去做一個全方位的檢視我覺得這就是我很想表達的所以我是想要說如果我們還是不面對不去做這件事情的話民進黨現在執政你們現在執政的做法就是是不是就各個突破我就單一個點單一個點點來看那這樣子可能真的會忽視掉整個政策對於我們環境的衝擊如果整體來看的因為它可能有疊加的效應嘛\n所以因為如果不做的話那是不是這個評估作業辦法也可以就廢掉不要用了所以我要講的事情是要請部長認真考慮不只是五接而是全台的這個接收站跟除氣場的累積性的環評報告跟總量管制的方案\n不要讓我們台灣的海岸淪為天然氣接收站的這個競逐場或讓整個西部海岸成為能源的犧牲帶我們希望可以有一個讓社會更安心知道說你們在做整個所謂這個能源轉型政策的時候它到底整體對於我們的社會對於我們的環境會有多大的衝擊部長我要表達這個\n可以嗎好 謝謝委員的意見那我們會納入參考因為這個其實目前的整個天然氣以氣轉煤是我們這個目前的基地的一個政策啦那至於說五街因為我們沒有收到這個他們的經濟部提出來的所以經濟部應該要提出來或是你應該去溝通他們提出來吧是吧 因為不然你環境部這不就是對於\n環境部很重要的主要業務嘛你整個能源政策或是整個政策的這個環境評估這應該是對於我們台灣國人也很重要的一件事情對 鮑委員其實以這個使用把這個煤淘汰掉我相信這個對我們整個環境有我完全是贊同的嘛\n但是我的意思就是說因為你這個接收站你的規劃到底對我們衝擊有多少然後以及你現在再生能源沒有達標的話那你的天然氣接收站是不是要再增加這一切都可能對於我們環境評估有不同的結果這個部分我就是要提醒部長我覺得你們真的要認真考慮去做這個所謂的政策環評比較上位的政策環評好嗎\n好 謝謝委員的建議 謝謝部長 另外一件事情 第二件事就是環境部日前有公布我們去年的空氣品質的檢測結果截至去年11月底全台平均2.5的平均濃度為12.5微克立方公尺所以較前年的13.7有所改善\n但是目前為止我有看到環團在質疑目前全台的法定手動PM2.5策戰僅有31處而自動策戰有78處\n那環境部卻排除了自動測站的數據只接受手動站的數據而根據環團的分析這個檢視全台的自動測站PM2.5的資料台澎金馬所有的空品區PM2.5的年均值實際是14.2微克地方公尺高於環境部公布的數字也特別在高雄全台十大空品最糟的自動監測站中有八站都在高雄\n那官方手動測站顯示17.4微克而自動測站顯示是18.23微克所以這個問題就是這樣部長為何不使用所有可用的監測數據來呈現完整的空氣品質的圖像\n這不就是會讓人家質疑說是不是為了要讓我們PM2.5的數值被低估讓環境部可以選擇性的使用這些數據有意想要美化空氣污染的嚴重度誤導公眾的認知好 包委員我是學這個的我可以跟委員說明第一個\n如果我已經在家裡面洗澡的時候你放一個PM2.5你洗澡的時候馬上就超標因為水氣會讓這個小粒子變大所以其實我們這個為什麼要變手動它會把這個水氣濾掉才是真實的PM2.5的危害謝謝部長 謝謝你講到 我知道你們環境部曾經表示過自動測站容易受水氣空氣中的鹽分影響所以手動測站能夠修正污染物素值的偏差\n但這也讓人家質疑一件事是不是也是一種校正回歸的手段但是退一步說你如果覺得自動策戰這麼沒有用這麼有可能有很多誤差的話那為什麼環境部還要持續投入大量的資金升級PM2.5的自動監測設備這不就自相矛盾嗎如果你剛剛講的這些東西都不可靠那為什麼要投資這不是很好笑嗎\n既然不可靠如果他又可靠的話不可靠你為什麼要投資那可靠的話你為什麼要拒絕使用他的這個數據嗎報委員手動跟自動在國際上有它一個標準現在大概都是以手動為主那自動的話為什麼還要增設因為其實它有一個趨勢型的有意義\n而且我們透過這個手動跟自動的這個所謂的這個修正之後其實會更真實到結果但是手動跟自動這兩個數值其實我們在應變裡面我們會同步來看但是它代表是不一樣的意義的\n那你公布的數據你還是只選擇用手動測試沒錯那這樣子是真的會讓國人比較安心嗎但是那個是國際上認可標準的數字就很像說有一家國外公司他公布說我們台灣的PM2.5的數字跟他就不一樣他那個是屬於自動型的而且很便宜的那這個反而會造成很大的誤解\n所以你投入自動的這個監測工具是有其他的使用目的就對了對 兩個都可以同時看但是我相信未來的話自動的設備如果可以把環境或水氣的因素濾除的話其實它會更準確的這個還要等可能要再等一段時間所以你們現在投資的就是希望說這個新的東西是可以更加準確所以未來你們才可以採納對 兩個到時候我相信兩個應該都有一個交叉點那個時候我們就不用了好 謝謝喔那簡單來講\n謝謝部長那我們還是要最後提醒一下我希望部長這邊可以真實的呈現數據我認為應該要誠實呈現數據然後誠實面對我們問題還要務實解決我們的問題因為包含你剛剛也有提到所謂能源結構的問題到底可不可以達成這些也都有關於我們今天討論的題目謝謝部長好 謝謝委員謝謝好 謝謝廖委員 謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.208 --> 00:20.373\n謝謝主席有請彭部長好請部長待會打呼了抱歉在這邊做個宣告等一下請待會邱正興委員執行完畢之後我們休息十分鐘好謝謝請繼續\n\n00:23.595 --> 00:44.761\n部長好那想要請教目前全台的這個規劃已經規劃7座天然氣接收站那包含台中港的這5街台塑的6街等新增的站體那暫時然而我們的政府好像從未針對全台接收站的總量進行一個上位的政策的環評\n\n00:46.241 --> 01:10.197\n僅是以個案的方式審查所以導致各接收站的累積性的環境衝擊完全沒有納入評估那請問部長在沒有進行全台的這個全台性的政策環評的這個狀況下要如何確保這個七座的接收站不會對於我們西部的沿海生態系比如說白海豚、珊瑚郊區造成不可逆的破壞\n\n01:11.258 --> 01:37.285\n因為部長我們台灣的西部海岸大約有460公里就有7座天然氣的接收站平均每65公里平均每65公里就有一座天然氣接收站那依照2024年這個GGIT的資料全球興建中及規劃興建天然氣的接收站大概目前是只有中國大陸印度和越南比我們多\n\n01:37.845 --> 01:54.755\n那換算下來我們現在應該算是全球的天然氣接收在密度最高的國家所以想要請教部長或者是我們經濟部的代表全球數據在這裡難道我們還是要繼續不用依照目前環評法第26條進行政策環評嗎\n\n01:58.018 --> 02:13.608\n因為政策環評需要目的事業局管機關跟我們提出那我環境部無法對這個直接提那你認為是不是應該要如果說因為這個移煤轉氣是我們過去這個政府的這個政策這個是既定的政策\n\n02:13.868 --> 02:33.623\n沒關係部長你覺得是不是目前進行到這個階段雖然目的世界主管機關沒有提出那以你環境部的角度你是否認為應該要進行這個所謂的政策環評包委員其實如果各種的例如說太陽能的發展能源的發展如果有一個政策環評讓社會可以有充分的共識我們當然歡迎但是也非您支持嘛\n\n02:34.063 --> 02:58.082\n其實你支持應該要但是我們也支持這種以煤轉氣因為其實我們過去燃煤其實造成風物比較嚴重我剛剛問的是兩件事你不能問A答B我就問說你支不支持你認不認為這個事情已經讓我們台灣算是西部海岸我們的密度最高接收器的密度最高天然氣接收站的密度最高是不是應該要你是不是支持應該要做所謂的政策環評\n\n02:59.003 --> 03:20.240\n報委員因為還有一個也跟我們報委像新加坡大概95%也都是燒天然氣啊沒關係部長我想要問的就是依照我國的狀況啊我跟你說政策政府政策環境影響評估作業辦法的第三條規定下列有這個政策有影響環境之餘者應實施環境影響評估嘛那其中第五款的內容可否請我們部長唸出來啊這個\n\n03:27.402 --> 03:53.192\n這個目前如果是政策環評推動這些東西其實當然能源政策是一項啦但是政策環評是一個事前的溝通它並對於個案是沒有強制力的所以部長但是問題就是這上面其實寫的還是贏不是得喔所以我意思就是說如果我們經濟部鴕鳥型態環境部也不管兩個部會都是鴕鳥型態的話那這樣算不算行政怠惰因為你剛剛也說你覺得應該要去溝通這件事情而且應該做這樣的政策環評嘛對不對\n\n03:55.004 --> 04:18.109\n如果說有更多的溝通當然是好事但是這個不會影響到個別的影響因為政策環比我覺得會耶為什麼以五街為例喔台電規劃在台中港外面就是現在有這個台灣媽祖與寶玉聯盟已經提出白海豚誤闖港區致死案例顯示既有四街還有台中港擴建與五街的疊加效應可能超出生態的承載力\n\n04:20.009 --> 04:37.521\n那所以我剛剛講的就是因為目前為止我們現行都是逐岸審查模式可能沒有辦法去評估區域性的生態衝擊尤其是多個戰體發生的時候所以另外經濟部宣稱七階接收站完工後天然氣進口量將從\n\n04:40.482 --> 04:59.307\n2000萬噸提升至3900萬噸以滿足非核家園政策下燃氣發電佔比50%的目標但是這也不是我講的中興大學也研究指出若再生能源進度延宕可能過度依賴天然氣將使接收站的負載率長期超標也反正所謂供氣風險\n\n05:00.973 --> 05:24.771\n所以我想要請教就是我剛剛說的就是他是你是主案主案的審可是你並沒有針對整件事情對環境的衝擊有一個更上位的所謂的政策環評喔所以我也想要請教一下那如果七接我們經濟部的代表七接接收站的數量設定是不是基於再生能源的達標跟產業用電零成長的前提請經濟部\n\n05:29.193 --> 05:51.918\n報告委員那有關這個天然氣接收站的這個興建那確實是依照我們這個能源轉型的這個政策的這個目標去去做這個相關的接收站的一個興建那所以這個那我想要請問那如果如果再生能源沒有達到36%的目標的話是否需要再增建接收站那請問要達標如果請問要達標的話要擴建多少才夠\n\n05:54.844 --> 06:08.701\n目前我們天然氣發電的這個佔比是以50%的這個目標為是啦所以我剛剛就問說你們是不是基於再生能源的達標跟產業用電零成長的前提然後去設定這七個七座\n\n06:11.058 --> 06:38.467\n欸再生能源部分是另外再生能源大概20%的這個目標沒有反過來講就是說如果再生能源沒有達標那你不夠你會不會要再增加所謂的天然氣的部分就各有各的一個目標要去努力去實施所以嘛那你還是沒回答我問題嘛所以我要講的事情就是部長啊就是如果沒有經過政策環評那只是為了達到數字而盲目開發又沒辦法說出到底可不可以達標然後說兩邊都要努力達標那最後你沒有達標的話\n\n06:39.307 --> 07:06.007\n那對於我們環境的衝擊會是什麼對於這個政策的環評有沒有去做一個全方位的檢視我覺得這就是我很想表達的所以我是想要說如果我們還是不面對不去做這件事情的話民進黨現在執政你們現在執政的做法就是是不是就各個突破我就單一個點單一個點點來看那這樣子可能真的會忽視掉整個政策對於我們環境的衝擊如果整體來看的因為它可能有疊加的效應嘛\n\n07:06.767 --> 07:22.613\n所以因為如果不做的話那是不是這個評估作業辦法也可以就廢掉不要用了所以我要講的事情是要請部長認真考慮不只是五接而是全台的這個接收站跟除氣場的累積性的環評報告跟總量管制的方案\n\n07:23.717 --> 07:43.149\n不要讓我們台灣的海岸淪為天然氣接收站的這個競逐場或讓整個西部海岸成為能源的犧牲帶我們希望可以有一個讓社會更安心知道說你們在做整個所謂這個能源轉型政策的時候它到底整體對於我們的社會對於我們的環境會有多大的衝擊部長我要表達這個\n\n07:44.912 --> 08:04.967\n可以嗎好謝謝委員的意見那我們會納入參考因為這個其實目前的整個天然氣以氣轉煤是我們這個目前的基地的一個政策啦那至於說五街因為我們沒有收到這個他們的經濟部提出來的所以經濟部應該要提出來或是你應該去溝通他們提出來吧是吧因為不然你環境部這不就是對於\n\n08:06.108 --> 08:22.538\n環境部很重要的主要業務嘛你整個能源政策或是整個政策的這個環境評估這應該是對於我們台灣國人也很重要的一件事情對鮑委員其實以這個使用把這個煤淘汰掉我相信這個對我們整個環境有我完全是贊同的嘛\n\n08:22.898 --> 08:44.266\n但是我的意思就是說因為你這個接收站你的規劃到底對我們衝擊有多少然後以及你現在再生能源沒有達標的話那你的天然氣接收站是不是要再增加這一切都可能對於我們環境評估有不同的結果這個部分我就是要提醒部長我覺得你們真的要認真考慮去做這個所謂的政策環評比較上位的政策環評好嗎\n\n08:45.046 --> 09:02.931\n好謝謝委員的建議謝謝部長另外一件事情第二件事就是環境部日前有公布我們去年的空氣品質的檢測結果截至去年11月底全台平均2.5的平均濃度為12.5微克立方公尺所以較前年的13.7有所改善\n\n09:03.951 --> 09:11.145\n但是目前為止我有看到環團在質疑目前全台的法定手動PM2.5策戰僅有31處而自動策戰有78處\n\n09:16.178 --> 09:44.241\n那環境部卻排除了自動測站的數據只接受手動站的數據而根據環團的分析這個檢視全台的自動測站PM2.5的資料台澎金馬所有的空品區PM2.5的年均值實際是14.2微克地方公尺高於環境部公布的數字也特別在高雄全台十大空品最糟的自動監測站中有八站都在高雄\n\n09:45.134 --> 09:59.703\n那官方手動測站顯示17.4微克而自動測站顯示是18.23微克所以這個問題就是這樣部長為何不使用所有可用的監測數據來呈現完整的空氣品質的圖像\n\n10:02.213 --> 10:19.450\n這不就是會讓人家質疑說是不是為了要讓我們PM2.5的數值被低估讓環境部可以選擇性的使用這些數據有意想要美化空氣污染的嚴重度誤導公眾的認知好包委員我是學這個的我可以跟委員說明第一個\n\n10:20.311 --> 10:45.883\n如果我已經在家裡面洗澡的時候你放一個PM2.5你洗澡的時候馬上就超標因為水氣會讓這個小粒子變大所以其實我們這個為什麼要變手動它會把這個水氣濾掉才是真實的PM2.5的危害謝謝部長謝謝你講到我知道你們環境部曾經表示過自動測站容易受水氣空氣中的鹽分影響所以手動測站能夠修正污染物素值的偏差\n\n10:47.043 --> 11:09.988\n但這也讓人家質疑一件事是不是也是一種校正回歸的手段但是退一步說你如果覺得自動策戰這麼沒有用這麼有可能有很多誤差的話那為什麼環境部還要持續投入大量的資金升級PM2.5的自動監測設備這不就自相矛盾嗎如果你剛剛講的這些東西都不可靠那為什麼要投資這不是很好笑嗎\n\n11:10.828 --> 11:28.624\n既然不可靠如果他又可靠的話不可靠你為什麼要投資那可靠的話你為什麼要拒絕使用他的這個數據嗎報委員手動跟自動在國際上有它一個標準現在大概都是以手動為主那自動的話為什麼還要增設因為其實它有一個趨勢型的有意義\n\n11:29.184 --> 11:40.880\n而且我們透過這個手動跟自動的這個所謂的這個修正之後其實會更真實到結果但是手動跟自動這兩個數值其實我們在應變裡面我們會同步來看但是它代表是不一樣的意義的\n\n11:42.411 --> 12:01.705\n那你公布的數據你還是只選擇用手動測試沒錯那這樣子是真的會讓國人比較安心嗎但是那個是國際上認可標準的數字就很像說有一家國外公司他公布說我們台灣的PM2.5的數字跟他就不一樣他那個是屬於自動型的而且很便宜的那這個反而會造成很大的誤解\n\n12:02.202 --> 12:30.170\n所以你投入自動的這個監測工具是有其他的使用目的就對了對兩個都可以同時看但是我相信未來的話自動的設備如果可以把環境或水氣的因素濾除的話其實它會更準確的這個還要等可能要再等一段時間所以你們現在投資的就是希望說這個新的東西是可以更加準確所以未來你們才可以採納對兩個到時候我相信兩個應該都有一個交叉點那個時候我們就不用了好謝謝喔那簡單來講\n\n12:31.970 --> 12:50.977\n謝謝部長那我們還是要最後提醒一下我希望部長這邊可以真實的呈現數據我認為應該要誠實呈現數據然後誠實面對我們問題還要務實解決我們的問題因為包含你剛剛也有提到所謂能源結構的問題到底可不可以達成這些也都有關於我們今天討論的題目謝謝部長好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝廖委員謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.208,"end":20.373,"text":"謝謝主席 有請彭部長好 請部長待會打呼了 抱歉在這邊做個宣告等一下請待會邱正興委員執行完畢之後我們休息十分鐘好 謝謝 請繼續"},{"start":23.595,"end":44.761,"text":"部長好 那想要請教目前全台的這個規劃已經規劃7座天然氣接收站那包含台中港的這5街台塑的6街等新增的站體那暫時然而我們的政府好像從未針對全台接收站的總量進行一個上位的政策的環評"},{"start":46.241,"end":70.197,"text":"僅是以個案的方式審查所以導致各接收站的累積性的環境衝擊完全沒有納入評估那請問部長在沒有進行全台的這個全台性的政策環評的這個狀況下要如何確保這個七座的接收站不會對於我們西部的沿海生態系比如說白海豚、珊瑚郊區造成不可逆的破壞"},{"start":71.258,"end":97.285,"text":"因為部長我們台灣的西部海岸大約有460公里就有7座天然氣的接收站平均每65公里平均每65公里就有一座天然氣接收站那依照2024年這個GGIT的資料全球興建中及規劃興建天然氣的接收站大概目前是只有中國大陸印度和越南比我們多"},{"start":97.845,"end":114.755,"text":"那換算下來我們現在應該算是全球的天然氣接收在密度最高的國家所以想要請教部長或者是我們經濟部的代表全球數據在這裡難道我們還是要繼續不用依照目前環評法第26條進行政策環評嗎"},{"start":118.018,"end":133.608,"text":"因為政策環評需要目的事業局管機關跟我們提出那我環境部無法對這個直接提那你認為是不是應該要如果說因為這個移煤轉氣是我們過去這個政府的這個政策這個是既定的政策"},{"start":133.868,"end":153.623,"text":"沒關係部長你覺得是不是目前進行到這個階段雖然目的世界主管機關沒有提出那以你環境部的角度你是否認為應該要進行這個所謂的政策環評包委員其實如果各種的例如說太陽能的發展能源的發展如果有一個政策環評讓社會可以有充分的共識我們當然歡迎但是也非您支持嘛"},{"start":154.063,"end":178.082,"text":"其實你支持應該要但是我們也支持這種以煤轉氣因為其實我們過去燃煤其實造成風物比較嚴重我剛剛問的是兩件事你不能問A答B我就問說你支不支持你認不認為這個事情已經讓我們台灣算是西部海岸我們的密度最高接收器的密度最高天然氣接收站的密度最高是不是應該要你是不是支持應該要做所謂的政策環評"},{"start":179.003,"end":200.24,"text":"報委員因為還有一個也跟我們報委像新加坡大概95%也都是燒天然氣啊沒關係部長我想要問的就是依照我國的狀況啊我跟你說政策政府政策環境影響評估作業辦法的第三條規定下列有這個政策有影響環境之餘者應實施環境影響評估嘛那其中第五款的內容可否請我們部長唸出來啊這個"},{"start":207.402,"end":233.192,"text":"這個目前如果是政策環評推動這些東西其實當然能源政策是一項啦但是政策環評是一個事前的溝通它並對於個案是沒有強制力的所以部長但是問題就是這上面其實寫的還是贏不是得喔所以我意思就是說如果我們經濟部鴕鳥型態環境部也不管兩個部會都是鴕鳥型態的話那這樣算不算行政怠惰因為你剛剛也說你覺得應該要去溝通這件事情而且應該做這樣的政策環評嘛對不對"},{"start":235.004,"end":258.109,"text":"如果說有更多的溝通當然是好事但是這個不會影響到個別的影響因為政策環比我覺得會耶 為什麼以五街為例喔台電規劃在台中港外面就是現在有這個台灣媽祖與寶玉聯盟已經提出白海豚誤闖港區致死案例顯示既有四街還有台中港擴建與五街的疊加效應可能超出生態的承載力"},{"start":260.009,"end":277.521,"text":"那所以我剛剛講的就是因為目前為止我們現行都是逐岸審查模式可能沒有辦法去評估區域性的生態衝擊尤其是多個戰體發生的時候所以另外經濟部宣稱七階接收站完工後天然氣進口量將從"},{"start":280.482,"end":299.307,"text":"2000萬噸提升至3900萬噸以滿足非核家園政策下燃氣發電佔比50%的目標但是這也不是我講的中興大學也研究指出若再生能源進度延宕可能過度依賴天然氣將使接收站的負載率長期超標也反正所謂供氣風險"},{"start":300.973,"end":324.771,"text":"所以我想要請教就是我剛剛說的就是他是你是主案主案的審可是你並沒有針對整件事情對環境的衝擊有一個更上位的所謂的政策環評喔所以我也想要請教一下那如果七接我們經濟部的代表七接接收站的數量設定是不是基於再生能源的達標跟產業用電零成長的前提請經濟部"},{"start":329.193,"end":351.918,"text":"報告委員那有關這個天然氣接收站的這個興建那確實是依照我們這個能源轉型的這個政策的這個目標去去做這個相關的接收站的一個興建那所以這個那我想要請問那如果如果再生能源沒有達到36%的目標的話是否需要再增建接收站那請問要達標如果請問要達標的話要擴建多少才夠"},{"start":354.844,"end":368.701,"text":"目前我們天然氣發電的這個佔比是以50%的這個目標為是啦所以我剛剛就問說你們是不是基於再生能源的達標跟產業用電零成長的前提然後去設定這七個七座"},{"start":371.058,"end":398.467,"text":"欸再生能源部分是另外再生能源大概20%的這個目標沒有反過來講就是說如果再生能源沒有達標那你不夠你會不會要再增加所謂的天然氣的部分就各有各的一個目標要去努力去實施所以嘛那你還是沒回答我問題嘛所以我要講的事情就是部長啊就是如果沒有經過政策環評那只是為了達到數字而盲目開發又沒辦法說出到底可不可以達標然後說兩邊都要努力達標那最後你沒有達標的話"},{"start":399.307,"end":426.007,"text":"那對於我們環境的衝擊會是什麼對於這個政策的環評有沒有去做一個全方位的檢視我覺得這就是我很想表達的所以我是想要說如果我們還是不面對不去做這件事情的話民進黨現在執政你們現在執政的做法就是是不是就各個突破我就單一個點單一個點點來看那這樣子可能真的會忽視掉整個政策對於我們環境的衝擊如果整體來看的因為它可能有疊加的效應嘛"},{"start":426.767,"end":442.613,"text":"所以因為如果不做的話那是不是這個評估作業辦法也可以就廢掉不要用了所以我要講的事情是要請部長認真考慮不只是五接而是全台的這個接收站跟除氣場的累積性的環評報告跟總量管制的方案"},{"start":443.717,"end":463.149,"text":"不要讓我們台灣的海岸淪為天然氣接收站的這個競逐場或讓整個西部海岸成為能源的犧牲帶我們希望可以有一個讓社會更安心知道說你們在做整個所謂這個能源轉型政策的時候它到底整體對於我們的社會對於我們的環境會有多大的衝擊部長我要表達這個"},{"start":464.912,"end":484.967,"text":"可以嗎好 謝謝委員的意見那我們會納入參考因為這個其實目前的整個天然氣以氣轉煤是我們這個目前的基地的一個政策啦那至於說五街因為我們沒有收到這個他們的經濟部提出來的所以經濟部應該要提出來或是你應該去溝通他們提出來吧是吧 因為不然你環境部這不就是對於"},{"start":486.108,"end":502.538,"text":"環境部很重要的主要業務嘛你整個能源政策或是整個政策的這個環境評估這應該是對於我們台灣國人也很重要的一件事情對 鮑委員其實以這個使用把這個煤淘汰掉我相信這個對我們整個環境有我完全是贊同的嘛"},{"start":502.898,"end":524.266,"text":"但是我的意思就是說因為你這個接收站你的規劃到底對我們衝擊有多少然後以及你現在再生能源沒有達標的話那你的天然氣接收站是不是要再增加這一切都可能對於我們環境評估有不同的結果這個部分我就是要提醒部長我覺得你們真的要認真考慮去做這個所謂的政策環評比較上位的政策環評好嗎"},{"start":525.046,"end":542.931,"text":"好 謝謝委員的建議 謝謝部長 另外一件事情 第二件事就是環境部日前有公布我們去年的空氣品質的檢測結果截至去年11月底全台平均2.5的平均濃度為12.5微克立方公尺所以較前年的13.7有所改善"},{"start":543.951,"end":551.145,"text":"但是目前為止我有看到環團在質疑目前全台的法定手動PM2.5策戰僅有31處而自動策戰有78處"},{"start":556.178,"end":584.241,"text":"那環境部卻排除了自動測站的數據只接受手動站的數據而根據環團的分析這個檢視全台的自動測站PM2.5的資料台澎金馬所有的空品區PM2.5的年均值實際是14.2微克地方公尺高於環境部公布的數字也特別在高雄全台十大空品最糟的自動監測站中有八站都在高雄"},{"start":585.134,"end":599.703,"text":"那官方手動測站顯示17.4微克而自動測站顯示是18.23微克所以這個問題就是這樣部長為何不使用所有可用的監測數據來呈現完整的空氣品質的圖像"},{"start":602.213,"end":619.45,"text":"這不就是會讓人家質疑說是不是為了要讓我們PM2.5的數值被低估讓環境部可以選擇性的使用這些數據有意想要美化空氣污染的嚴重度誤導公眾的認知好 包委員我是學這個的我可以跟委員說明第一個"},{"start":620.311,"end":645.883,"text":"如果我已經在家裡面洗澡的時候你放一個PM2.5你洗澡的時候馬上就超標因為水氣會讓這個小粒子變大所以其實我們這個為什麼要變手動它會把這個水氣濾掉才是真實的PM2.5的危害謝謝部長 謝謝你講到 我知道你們環境部曾經表示過自動測站容易受水氣空氣中的鹽分影響所以手動測站能夠修正污染物素值的偏差"},{"start":647.043,"end":669.988,"text":"但這也讓人家質疑一件事是不是也是一種校正回歸的手段但是退一步說你如果覺得自動策戰這麼沒有用這麼有可能有很多誤差的話那為什麼環境部還要持續投入大量的資金升級PM2.5的自動監測設備這不就自相矛盾嗎如果你剛剛講的這些東西都不可靠那為什麼要投資這不是很好笑嗎"},{"start":670.828,"end":688.624,"text":"既然不可靠如果他又可靠的話不可靠你為什麼要投資那可靠的話你為什麼要拒絕使用他的這個數據嗎報委員手動跟自動在國際上有它一個標準現在大概都是以手動為主那自動的話為什麼還要增設因為其實它有一個趨勢型的有意義"},{"start":689.184,"end":700.88,"text":"而且我們透過這個手動跟自動的這個所謂的這個修正之後其實會更真實到結果但是手動跟自動這兩個數值其實我們在應變裡面我們會同步來看但是它代表是不一樣的意義的"},{"start":702.411,"end":721.705,"text":"那你公布的數據你還是只選擇用手動測試沒錯那這樣子是真的會讓國人比較安心嗎但是那個是國際上認可標準的數字就很像說有一家國外公司他公布說我們台灣的PM2.5的數字跟他就不一樣他那個是屬於自動型的而且很便宜的那這個反而會造成很大的誤解"},{"start":722.202,"end":750.17,"text":"所以你投入自動的這個監測工具是有其他的使用目的就對了對 兩個都可以同時看但是我相信未來的話自動的設備如果可以把環境或水氣的因素濾除的話其實它會更準確的這個還要等可能要再等一段時間所以你們現在投資的就是希望說這個新的東西是可以更加準確所以未來你們才可以採納對 兩個到時候我相信兩個應該都有一個交叉點那個時候我們就不用了好 謝謝喔那簡單來講"},{"start":751.97,"end":770.977,"text":"謝謝部長那我們還是要最後提醒一下我希望部長這邊可以真實的呈現數據我認為應該要誠實呈現數據然後誠實面對我們問題還要務實解決我們的問題因為包含你剛剛也有提到所謂能源結構的問題到底可不可以達成這些也都有關於我們今天討論的題目謝謝部長好 謝謝委員謝謝好 謝謝廖委員 謝謝部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":520,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（10時16分）謝謝主席，有請彭部長。"],["主席：抱歉，請部長待會答復。在這邊作個宣告：待會邱鎮軍委員質詢完畢之後，我們休息10分鐘，謝謝。請繼續。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。廖委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好。想要請教，目前全臺已經規劃了7座天然氣接收站，包含臺中港五接、台塑的六接等新增的站體，然後我們的政府好像從未針對全臺接收站的總量進行上位的政策環評，僅以個案的方式審查，導致各接收站累積性的環境衝擊完全沒有納入評估。請問部長，在沒有進行全臺性的政策環評狀況下，要如何確保這7座的接收站不會對於西部的沿海生態系比如白海豚、珊瑚礁區造成不可逆的破壞？","部長，我們臺灣的西部海岸大約460公里，就有7座天然氣的接收站，平均每65公里就有1座天然氣接收站。依照2024年GGIT的資料，全球興建中及規劃興建天然氣接收站目前只有中國大陸、印度和越南比我們多，換算下來，我們現在應該算是全球天然氣接收站密度最高的國家。所以我想要請教部長或經濟部的代表，全球數據在這裡，難道我們還要繼續不用依照目前環評法第二十六條進行政策環評嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為政策環評需要目的事業主管機關跟我們提出，我們環境部無法對這個直接提，要提……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，你認為是不是應該要？"],["彭部長啓明：因為以煤轉氣是過去我們政府的政策，這個是既定的政策。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，部長，你覺得目前進行到這個階段，雖然目的事業主管機關沒有提出，以你環境部的角度，你認為是否應該要進行所謂的政策環評？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，各種例如太陽能的發展、能源的發展如果有一個政策環評，讓社會可以有充分的共識，我們當然歡迎，但是因為……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以您支持，對不對？您支持應該要……"],["彭部長啓明：對，但是我們也支持這種以煤轉氣，因為過去燃煤其實造成我們空污比較嚴重……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，部長，這是兩件事嘛。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：我剛剛問的是兩件事，你不能問A答B。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：我就問你支不支持、認不認為……這個事情已經讓臺灣西部海岸的天然氣接收站密度最高，你是不是支持應該要做所謂的政策環評？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，還有一個，像新加坡大概95%也都是燒天然氣，其實……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，部長，我想要問的是依照我國的狀況。我跟你說，政府政策環境影響評估作業辦法第三條規定：「下列政策有影響環境之虞者，應實施環境影響評估」，其中第五款的內容可否請部長念出來？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，目前如果是政策環評推動這些東西，當然能源政策是一項，但是政策環評是一個事前的溝通，它對於個案是沒有強制力的。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，但是問題就是這上面寫的還是「應」，不是「得」，所以我的意思是如果經濟部抱持鴕鳥心態，環境部也不管，兩個部會都是鴕鳥心態的話，這樣算不算行政怠惰？因為你剛剛也說你覺得應該要去溝通這件事情，而且應該做這樣的政策環評，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：如果有更多的溝通，當然是好事，但是這個不會影響到個別，因為政策環評……"],["廖委員偉翔：我覺得會耶，為什麼？以五接為例，台電規劃在臺中港外面，現在台灣媽祖魚保育聯盟已經提出白海豚誤闖港區致死案例，顯示既有四接、臺中港擴建與五接的疊加效應可能超出生態的承載力。所以我剛剛講的是，目前為止現行都是逐案審查模式，可能沒有辦法去評估區域性的生態衝擊，尤其是多個站體發生的時候。","另外，經濟部宣稱七接接收站完工後，天然氣進口量將從2,000萬噸提升至3,900萬噸，以滿足非核家園政策下燃氣發電占比50%的目標，這也不是我講的。但是中興大學也研究指出，如果再生能源進度延宕，可能過度依賴天然氣，將使天然氣接收站的負載率長期超標，也反增供氣風險。所以我想要請教，就像我剛剛說的，這個是逐案、逐案地審，並沒有針對整件事情對於環境衝擊有一個更上位的政策環評。所以我也想要請教一下經濟部的代表，七接接收站的數量設定是不是基於再生能源的達標跟產業用電零成長的前提？"],["彭部長啓明：請經濟部。"],["劉副司長起孝：報告委員，有關天然氣接收站的興建，確實是依照能源轉型的政策目標去做相關接收站的興建，所以這個部分……"],["廖委員偉翔：我想要請問，如果再生能源沒有達到36%的目標的話，是否需要再增建接收站？請問要達標的話，要擴建多少才夠？"],["劉副司長起孝：目前天然氣發電的占比是以50%的目標為我們的……"],["廖委員偉翔：是，所以我剛剛就問你們是不是基於再生能源的達標跟產業用電零成長的前提去設定這7座？"],["劉副司長起孝：再生能源的部分是另外大概20%的目標……"],["廖委員偉翔：反過來講，就是如果再生能源沒有達標、不夠，你們會不會要再增加天然氣的部分？"],["劉副司長起孝：這各有各的目標要去努力達成目標。"],["廖委員偉翔：你還是沒有回答我的問題。所以我要講的事情就是，部長，如果沒有經過政策環評，只是為了達到數字而盲目開發，又沒辦法說出到底可不可以達標，或者說兩邊都要努力達標，但最後你沒有達標的話，如此，對於環境的衝擊會是什麼？且對於該政策的環評有沒有做全方位的檢視？這就是我想要表達的。我想說的是，如果還是不面對、甚至不去做這件事情，民進黨現在執政的做法就是：是不是各個突破，就單一個點、單一個點來看，這樣子可能真的會忽視整個政策對於環境的衝擊，畢竟整體來看可能有疊加的效應。所以如果不做的話，是不是評估作業辦法也就可以廢掉，不要用了？我要講的是，請部長認真考慮，不只五接，而是全臺的接收站跟儲氣場的累積性環評報告跟總量管制方案，不要讓臺灣海岸淪為天然氣接收站的競逐場，甚或讓整個西部海岸成為能源的犧牲帶！我們希望可以有一個讓社會更安心的方案，讓我們知道你們在做能源轉型政策時，到底對於社會、對於環境會有多大的衝擊？部長，我要表達的是這個，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員的意見，我們會納入參考。就天然氣來說，即以氣換煤是我們目前的既定政策。至於五接，因為我們沒有收到經濟部提出來的……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以經濟部應該要提出來，或是你應該去溝通請他們提出來，是吧？這不就是環境部很重要的主要業務嗎？也就是關乎你整個能源政策的環境評估，這對我們臺灣國人來說也是一件很重要的事情。"],["彭部長啓明：對。報告委員，其實把煤淘汰掉，相信對我們整個環境也會更好的。"],["廖委員偉翔：我完全贊同。但我的意思是，這個接收站的規劃到底衝擊有多少？若再生能源沒有達標的話，那麼天然氣接收站是不是要再增加？這一切都可能讓環境評估有不同結果，這個部分我要提醒部長。我覺得你們真的要認真考慮去做政策環評、做比較上位的政策環評，好嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員的建議。"],["廖委員偉翔：第二件事，日前環境部公布了去年的空氣品質監測結果，截至去年11月底，全臺PM2.5的平均濃度為12.5微克/立方公尺，較前年的13.7微克/立方公尺有所改善。但是我有看到環團質疑，目前全臺法定手動PM2.5測站僅有31處，而自動測站有78處，環境部排除了自動測站的數據，只接受手動測站的數據。根據環團分析，檢視全臺自動測站PM2.5的資料，臺澎金馬所有空品區的PM2.5實際年均值是14.2微克/立方公尺，高於環境部公布的數字！特別是高雄，全臺十大空品最糟的自動監測站中，有8站都在高雄。官方的手動測站顯示為17.4微克/立方公尺，自動測站顯示是18.23微克/立方公尺，所以問題在於，為何不使用所有可用的監測數據以呈現完整的空氣品質圖像？如此不免讓人質疑，是不是為了讓PM2.5的數值被低估，讓環境部可以選擇性的使用這些數據，有意美化空氣污染的嚴重度，誤導公眾認知？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我是學這個的，我可以跟委員做說明。第一，委員可以在家裡洗澡時放PM2.5監測，這樣洗澡時馬上就超標，因為水氣會讓小粒子變大。我們為什麼變手動？因為要把水氣濾掉，這樣才是真實的PM2.5……"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝部長，我知道。因為環境部曾經表示過，自動測站容易受水氣、空氣中的鹽分影響，而手動測站能夠修正污染物數值的偏差，但這同時也讓人家質疑，這是不是也是一種校正回歸的手段？退一步來講，如果覺得自動測站這麼沒有用，有很多誤差的話，為什麼環境部還要持續投入大量資金升級PM2.5的自動監測設備？這不就自相矛盾？如果你剛剛講的這些東西都不可靠的話，為什麼還要投資？這不是很好笑嗎？既然不可靠，為什麼要投資？若可靠的話，為什麼要拒絕使用其數據？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，手動跟自動在國際上有其標準，現在大概都是以手動為主。至於為什麼還要增設自動？因為其實它有趨勢型的意義，而且我們透過手動跟自動的修正會得到更真實的結果。至於手動跟自動兩個數值，其實我們會在應變裡同步來看，因為它代表的是不一樣的意義。"],["廖委員偉翔：代表不一樣，但你公布的數據還是只選擇手動測試？"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯。"],["廖委員偉翔：這樣子真的會讓國人比較安心嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：那是國際上認可的標準數字。這很像有一家國外公司公布說，臺灣PM2.5的數值跟他不一樣，他是屬於自動型的，而且很便宜，這反而會造成很大的誤解。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以投入自動監測工具有其他的使用目的？"],["彭部長啓明：對，兩個都可以同時看，但未來若自動設備可以把環境或水氣因素濾除的話就會更準確，只是這個還要等一段時間。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你們現在投資，就是希望這個新東西可以更加準確，如此未來你們才可以採納？"],["彭部長啓明：對，到時候我相信兩個應該會有交叉點，屆時我們就不用了。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝部長。最後還是要提醒一下，我希望部長可以真實呈現數據！我認為應該要真實呈現數據，誠實面對問題，務實解決問題，你剛剛也有提到所謂能源結構的問題到底可不可以達成，這些也都和我們今天討論的題目有關，好，謝謝部長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝廖委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請邱鎮軍委員來做詢答；邱委員詢答完，我們休息10分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張啓楷","張智倫","楊曜","翁曉玲","劉建國","陳瑩","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","蘇清泉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、教育部、經濟部、台灣電力公司、台灣中油公司就「氣象變異致\n國內空品惡化，精進預報與跨部會應變作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00004"}}}