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\"但另外一個部分如果說解除了這樣的一個門檻未來只要一家就能夠開標會不會有產生其他的弊端有沒有想過如何來做相關的配搭這個各界意見反映很多所以我們中理之後會來預告再聽取各界意見到時候大院審理的時候可以來所以有防弊機制\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 506.946, \"end\": 507.086, \"score\": 0.692}, {\"word\": \"另\", \"start\": 507.086, \"end\": 507.226, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 507.226, \"end\": 507.346, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 507.346, \"end\": 507.506, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 507.506, \"end\": 507.726, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 507.726, \"end\": 508.226, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 508.226, \"end\": 508.346, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 508.346, \"end\": 508.726, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 508.726, \"end\": 508.946, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"除\", \"start\": 508.946, \"end\": 509.167, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 509.167, \"end\": 509.547, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": 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\"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"見\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 523.39, \"end\": 523.57, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 523.57, \"end\": 523.83, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 523.83, \"end\": 523.97, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 523.97, \"end\": 524.37, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 524.37, \"end\": 524.47, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 524.47, \"end\": 524.85, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 524.85, \"end\": 525.43, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 525.43, \"end\": 525.591, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 525.591, \"end\": 526.151, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 526.151, \"end\": 526.271, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 526.271, \"end\": 526.291, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 526.291, \"end\": 526.451, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 526.451, \"end\": 526.591, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"弊\", \"start\": 526.591, \"end\": 526.751, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 526.751, \"end\": 526.771, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 527.671, \"end\": 536.621, \"text\": \"不是 這個我們會再聽取各界意見當中是 你聽取各界意見 但你們不是要先預告嗎4月要預告的部分 你們的房地機制有沒有預想在裡面\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 527.671, \"end\": 527.971, \"score\": 0.756}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 527.971, \"end\": 528.232, \"score\": 0.648}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 528.232, \"end\": 528.412, \"score\": 0.655}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 528.412, \"end\": 528.812, \"score\": 0.628}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"取\", \"start\": 528.812, \"end\": 529.033, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 529.033, \"end\": 529.193, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"界\", \"start\": 529.193, \"end\": 529.373, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 529.373, \"end\": 529.493, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"見\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 529.493, \"end\": 529.994, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 529.994, \"end\": 530.334, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 530.334, \"end\": 530.655, \"score\": 0.672}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"取\", \"start\": 530.655, \"end\": 530.835, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 530.835, \"end\": 530.975, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"界\", \"start\": 530.975, \"end\": 531.095, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 531.095, \"end\": 531.355, \"score\": 0.738}, {\"word\": \"見\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 531.355, \"end\": 531.516, \"score\": 0.675}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 531.516, \"end\": 531.816, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 531.816, \"end\": 531.916, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 531.916, \"end\": 532.016, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 532.016, \"end\": 532.136, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 532.136, \"end\": 532.517, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 532.517, \"end\": 533.077, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 533.077, \"end\": 533.238, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 533.238, \"end\": 533.658, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 533.658, \"end\": 533.838, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 533.838, \"end\": 533.958, \"score\": 0.606}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 533.958, \"end\": 534.159, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 534.159, \"end\": 534.319, \"score\": 0.755}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 534.319, \"end\": 534.559, \"score\": 0.676}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 534.559, \"end\": 534.699, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"房\", \"start\": 534.699, \"end\": 534.899, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 534.899, \"end\": 535.28, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 535.28, \"end\": 535.44, \"score\": 0.658}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 535.44, \"end\": 535.58, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 535.58, \"end\": 535.7, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 535.7, \"end\": 536.181, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 536.181, \"end\": 536.381, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 536.381, \"end\": 536.601, \"score\": 0.672}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 536.601, \"end\": 536.621, \"score\": 0.561}]}, {\"start\": 537.741, \"end\": 557.856, \"text\": \"現在的採購方式跟過去不是電子化的時代差很多啦所以資訊完全公開透明所以我們聽取各界意見之後認為如果維持三家才能夠開標的話往往是造成流標的主要原因所以未來會只要一標一家投標就可以公開招標這是我們準備預告的草案內容\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 537.741, \"end\": 537.961, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 537.961, \"end\": 538.702, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": 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00:00:51,120\n那所以說公共工程重點在於是用專業數據來說話不要有任何模糊的數字你也同意嗎好來麥克風可以打開沒錯那本席有看到因為昨天有這個公共工程產業在媒體刊登半版的聯合聲明要求說儘速解凍工程會的預算那本席想要知道\n\n3\n00:00:52,040 --> 00:01:17,776\n主委事先知情嗎是一個廣告我們跟工程產業工會互動密切所以你事先知道我們事先知道有溝通過嗎有說明過嗎因為它裡面的重點是說儘速解凍工程會的預算不能沒有金質獎本席先強調我的核心立場我也認為金質獎很重要一定要辦非辦不可\n\n4\n00:01:18,476 --> 00:01:33,126\nCOVID-19的時候我們都沒有延誤辦理金職獎了金職獎是國家重大建設發展當然要辦但儘速解凍工程會預算主委請教你解凍案送來立法院了嗎\n\n5\n00:01:34,130 --> 00:01:48,840\n解動換我們要執行預算30%以後才能送那目前執行到什麼程度了目前還沒有到30%所以你還沒有執行到30%你也沒有辦法送進來那沒有辦法送進來我們要怎麼解我們是\n\n6\n00:01:49,440 --> 00:02:13,840\n我們判斷這種解凍方式因為我們是凍結50%的業務費嘛然後必須院會解凍同意時的凍資這個是遙遙無期但是你要先送進來委員會其實沒有遙遙無期啊主委本席剛剛開宗明義就強調不要似是而非講清楚來我先請教去年度公共工程委員會總預算有多少錢\n\n7\n00:02:15,141 --> 00:02:30,698\n將近四億五千萬左右四億九千萬你少了四千萬今年我們核定的預算總共有多少錢它五億五左右五億五多增加了多少費用五千萬是包括人事費還有多增加了多少費用\n\n8\n00:02:31,158 --> 00:02:58,462\n五千萬多增加了公共工程委員會今年核定的預算比去年多增加了五千萬整體經濟增加嘛這是主委剛剛所說明多五千萬這是必然的必然的這也是經過委員會審議經過立法院我們同意所以說立法部門行政部門我們共同認為說台灣經濟發展所以我們有增加工程會五千萬的預算立法部門並未同意\n\n9\n00:02:58,962 --> 00:03:24,092\n有啊如果說沒有同意的話怎麼會最後通過我現在解凍50%就凍了1億左右主委你這樣子就似是而非了如果說沒有同意的話怎麼會到最後通過預算還沒有同意使用預算是不是立法部門到最後通過的通過裡面凍結1億啊凍結50%啊凍三減了1000多萬啊但是你現在你現在執行的數目是怎麼樣你現在執行都還沒有到超過30%啊所以其實主委\n\n10\n00:03:26,433 --> 00:03:45,322\n不用似是而非我們就事論事本席從過去到現在就一直強調其實公共工程非常重要而今年的預算比去年已經多成長了五千萬還有更重要的是到目前為止工程會還沒有送進解凍案我們怎麼樣來討論\n\n11\n00:03:46,542 --> 00:04:11,231\n我想交通委員會的委員一定會本職專業如果說你真的送進來說明清楚的話該解凍我們一定會解凍但重點是你什麼時候要送解凍案進來報告委員是什麼時候可以送解凍案大院的主決議是院會同意時的動之並不是交通委員會來審理委員會審查完畢之後送院會院會也會尊重委員會的意見嗎這個從來未有過的\n\n12\n00:04:12,571 --> 00:04:28,953\n但是重點在於是你什麼時候要送進來這個立法院從來沒有做這樣的主委什麼時候要送進來我們你什麼時候認為送進來還是現在民進黨要搞下鄉要搞這些宣傳所以說就是明明應該是行政部門要送進來的你現在就不送\n\n13\n00:04:30,396 --> 00:04:58,823\n什麼時候能夠送進來我們會依大院的規定送進來什麼時候可以送進來我們依大院的規定如果說你沒有送我們怎麼解你沒有同意動資預算我們怎麼辦金職獎你現在要解凍然後你現在又跟我講說我們要同意但你又不送解凍案我們要怎麼同意金職獎現在是要接受報名的我們要怎麼同意很多工作都在進行實際上還在進行本來延續性的計畫預算法裡面就規定很清楚主委\n\n14\n00:04:59,758 --> 00:05:12,708\n不要是是而非啊預算法本來就規定的非常清楚延續性的計畫本來就可以來做一個使用但重點是你們什麼時候要把解凍案的方案送進來\n\n15\n00:05:14,076 --> 00:05:41,739\n主委告訴國人你們什麼時候要送我們才能夠討論如果委員給我們一個明確的答案什麼時候能夠同意我們使用我們就決定辦或不辦主委這個就是你似是而非你連送進來的說明都沒有然後你就跟我們講說要立法部門開空白支票同意根本荒謬啊我們為什麼相關的計畫預算有些會凍結我想之前很多委員不管藍綠啊我們現在召委\n\n16\n00:05:43,803 --> 00:06:04,341\n李昆哲委員他也有凍結過預算啊但是他會要求行政部門提出相關的說明之後可以解凍我們就解凍但重點是你現在連說明都沒有說明出來你就跟我們講是說一定要立法院先同意我才要送根本荒謬根本凌駕立法委員的質詢權凌駕立法委員的審查權主委\n\n17\n00:06:09,008 --> 00:06:22,980\n法定國家行政機關有可以那麼的傲慢嗎所以主委能不能說明清楚你們什麼時候要送相關的計畫有沒有辦法說明清楚有沒有辦法說明清楚\n\n18\n00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:55,095\n主委你不能反指許但重點是委員會會有本來就有合理的解凍的程序你不用在那邊事事而非無焦點現在就是國人大家看得清清楚楚工程委員會的主委沒有辦法向國人說明清楚你什麼時候要送解凍案你如果說沒有送解凍案的話我們何來可以審查這就是工程會主委的態度\n\n19\n00:06:57,949 --> 00:07:10,834\n我們依法會受解凍本席非常的遺憾我覺得說到目前為止你還是沒有辦法針對問題回答問題沒有辦法向國人說明清楚你們到底要怎麼做能夠送入這個說明\n\n20\n00:07:12,446 --> 00:07:34,009\n行政官員每一位其實下面都在偷笑因為看到聽到主委那麼的沒有這個行政的一個邏輯跟觀念你連最基本的要送入立法院來申請解凍都沒有辦法都沒有辦法承諾的時候然後你現在一直在鬼打牆講說你們什麼時候要同意你們先同意我們再送荒謬荒謬\n\n21\n00:07:35,875 --> 00:07:59,444\n這就像是跟老師講說老師你先給我歐帕歐帕了我才要考試你承諾歐帕我才要考試莫名其妙主委我再請教去年你有說要現實的政府採購法規定公開招標要三家以上的合格廠商才能夠開標但是現在想要修法刪除三家的廠商門檻\n\n22\n00:08:01,175 --> 00:08:26,666\n這個是我們收集各界的意見準備4月辦理預告預告所以4月會出爐4月會辦理預告那預告之後呢預告之後送行政院會審查審查通過報大院來整理那有沒有討論因為過去其實大家有在講說過猶不及有一些部分是說如果說有三家的這個門檻當然可能會造成說公開招標的一個進度上的拖延\n\n23\n00:08:26,946 --> 00:08:46,771\n但另外一個部分如果說解除了這樣的一個門檻未來只要一家就能夠開標會不會有產生其他的弊端有沒有想過如何來做相關的配搭這個各界意見反映很多所以我們中理之後會來預告再聽取各界意見到時候大院審理的時候可以來所以有防弊機制\n\n24\n00:08:47,671 --> 00:08:56,621\n不是這個我們會再聽取各界意見當中是你聽取各界意見但你們不是要先預告嗎4月要預告的部分你們的房地機制有沒有預想在裡面\n\n25\n00:08:57,741 --> 00:09:17,856\n現在的採購方式跟過去不是電子化的時代差很多啦所以資訊完全公開透明所以我們聽取各界意見之後認為如果維持三家才能夠開標的話往往是造成流標的主要原因所以未來會只要一標一家投標就可以公開招標這是我們準備預告的草案內容\n\n26\n00:09:18,456 --> 00:09:41,269\n好那防備機制在裡面有沒有設計相關防備機制在草案裡面會有好草案裡面會有本席等著看我們四月的公告那本席也會討論因為這還是一樣重點在於是提升政府行政效能裡面我們要思考到防備的機制所以說剛剛主委既然已經提到說有所謂防備機制我們期待工程會提出來的版本最後\n\n27\n00:09:42,315 --> 00:09:59,618\n我再確認一下因為本席非常關心氣候變遷因應法所謂2050淨零碳排那其中工程會非常重要的一個部分就是有所謂的減碳作業指引那主委也講說減碳作業參考指引會預計在今年出爐請教什麼時候會出爐\n\n28\n00:10:01,019 --> 00:10:23,169\n114年年底今年年底到目前目前都已經有在做執行了持續在收集資料當中好持續在收集資料當中所以這個指引本席也要提出因為過去工程會在2022年就已經有發布公共工程節能減碳減核注意事項要求我們各機關訂定節能減碳的減核機制跟目標\n\n29\n00:10:24,589 --> 00:10:46,567\n請教2022年到現在提出來哪些部門有達標哪些部門還有改進的空間這個不是標準我們持續在進進當中將來會改成我們收集相關的這個排蛋係數那麼建立一個完整的計算碳的一個這個系統然後提供給各機關在設計的時候參考\n\n30\n00:10:48,448 --> 00:10:56,293\n過去要機關來填寫這個碳排的接落部分這個政策我們在逐步在調整當中\n\n31\n00:10:57,534 --> 00:11:25,813\n好那但是本席我們會改成收集係數你還是沒有回答本席的問題啊主委本席問的是說2022年我們工程會議既然我是可以肯定的喔不管是那個時候你還不是主委那時候是吳主委嘛吳主委在的時候本席也跟他就教過因為淨零碳排本席非常重視尤其是零碳建築所以當時有提出來這個注意事項的時候我們也認為說不要一步馬上要求各部門到位但至少我們了解一下各部門在\n\n32\n00:11:27,333 --> 00:11:52,188\n從2022年開始到現在2025年過去兩年的時間裡面哪一些部門比較做得好哪些部門還有加強空間我們有沒有去做了解不能用這個標準這工程會提出來的然後你跟我講說不能用這個標準減核注意事項是一個定性提醒機關說你辦理公共工程設計的時候要注意到減碳的相關作為哪些部門有做到哪些部門沒做到\n\n33\n00:11:53,048 --> 00:12:20,128\n有沒有去了解因為不是強制性的因為不是強制性嘛是嘛所以主委你講出大白話了嘛第一2022年那時候提出來是工程會自己提出來的那沒有強制性也因此我們就不了解說到底哪個部門真的有比較符合這個標準哪些部門沒有因為工程會也沒有去做管考考核那現在你要再做一個檢探作業參考指引會不會有一個標準\n\n34\n00:12:21,228 --> 00:12:47,527\n減碳的部分各機關他有自己會不會有一個標準會不會又變成沒有強制性你今年年底出來的會不會又是另外一個利益很良善但是沒有強制性的標準工程會的目的是要建立一個比較完整的這個減碳的所有工程的排放係數那這個排放係數是包括工程單項它每個單項排碳多少給各機關去參考\n\n35\n00:12:49,008 --> 00:13:00,006\n您把工程會看小了做小了工程會絕對不是只是提出一個標準跟各機關參考是國家重大工程的主管機關\n\n36\n00:13:02,235 --> 00:13:22,786\n主委本席提出來是對於我們工程會有非常高的期待我們也希望減碳的主管機關重點在於是你是國家重大工程的主管機關能不能用國家重大工程來符合減碳的標準這才是重點主委\n\n37\n00:13:23,834 --> 00:13:51,013\n本席是在野黨的委員但我絕對不是說跟你站在對立面我們一起督促是要讓國家的重大工程更好請聽本席一句話本席過去就強調如果我們現在要2050淨零碳排往前回推現在只剩25年其中零碳建築是一個很重要的參考指標我之前就提過能不能說從現在開始要求至少公部門先行\n\n38\n00:13:52,274 --> 00:14:18,834\n國家的工部門的建設從現在開始就用零碳的建築標準來去做帶領私部門如果說我們連自己工部門編列預算的建築都沒有辦法達到零碳建築我們怎麼有辦法期待私部門私人的企業私人的建築來做零碳建築所以這一些部分才是我們希望工程會能夠跳出來當領頭羊的部分我可以說明嗎每一個工程有他的目標\n\n39\n00:14:19,815 --> 00:14:47,863\n包括結構安全包括方便性等等減碳是其中之一所以各部門的設計是一個最適設計達到一個最好的目標減碳跟安全跟什麼是不衝突的不會因為減碳所以說犧牲安全不會因為減碳而犧牲相關的一個目標如果主委你還停留在過去20年前這種思維的話那我真的很擔憂我真的非常非常的擔憂結構不同\n\n40\n00:14:49,463 --> 00:15:11,917\n所以你要選擇鋼構有選擇鋼構的理由那我跟委員報告選擇鋼構你也可以用零碳建築的方向任何事情都會有排碳沒有零碳建築可以用各種的政策目標手段2014年英國就已經宣布他們接下來2014年之後的國家重大公共工程都是用零碳建築\n\n41\n00:15:12,777 --> 00:15:32,797\n別的國家做得到你現在2025年10多年之後你跟我們講說沒辦法要不要請教一下環境部我們現在在呼吸就在排碳了所以不會有零碳建築這件事情主委這樣子你完全忽略跟羅浮根不了解零碳建築的定義沒有零碳這件事情我們呼吸都在排碳\n\n42\n00:15:34,675 --> 00:16:00,175\n主委怎麼會有零碳建築這件事情沒關係這個是公共工程委員會的主委所定立的方向請各位媒體朋友記得主委這一句話如果說連我們國家重大公共工程的主管機關都跟世界趨勢背道而馳的話那這就是民進黨政府的態度這就是現在環境部要定出來如果說連公共工程委員會都講說這個是沒有這件事情的話那代表國家從頭到尾都在騙人\n\n43\n00:16:02,917 --> 00:16:19,336\n國家要這樣騙人嗎你要用這樣子的一個話術主委本席很務實的很專業的很理性的要來跟你做討論但是你用這樣的一個方向其實凸顯的就是你對於本身的公共工程掌握的真的不夠透徹\n\n44\n00:16:20,836 --> 00:16:35,456\n我非常遺憾謝謝跟大會報告一下我是代理召委那我們也尊重這個相關的議事的程序每位委員是6加2分鐘\n\n45\n00:16:37,631 --> 00:17:02,596\n其實另外加時的時間其實已經超過6分鐘其實已經再加8分鐘了那我們都開飯店不怕人家吃飯了但他終究是有營業時間超過營業時間我們很難再招待下去主委未來備刑官員好好針對問題回答問題我都雙方都尊重我雙方都尊重謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2096\t25703\t主席謝謝麻煩請我們陳主委好來陳主委委員長主委好 主委本席剛剛您聽您的這個書面報告那本席也一直強調就是說我們一起努力為台灣的公共工程品質來把關更重要是我們要好好的督促我們的公共工程嘛這你同意嗎\n27495\t51120\t那所以說 公共工程重點在於是用專業數據來說話不要有任何模糊的數字你也同意嗎好 來 麥克風可以打開 沒錯那本席有看到因為昨天有這個公共工程產業在媒體刊登半版的聯合聲明要求說儘速解凍工程會的預算那本席想要知道\n52040\t77776\t主委事先知情嗎是一個廣告我們跟工程產業工會互動密切所以你事先知道我們事先知道有溝通過嗎有說明過嗎因為它裡面的重點是說儘速解凍工程會的預算不能沒有金質獎本席先強調我的核心立場我也認為金質獎很重要一定要辦非辦不可\n78476\t93126\tCOVID-19的時候我們都沒有延誤辦理金職獎了金職獎是國家重大建設發展當然要辦但儘速解凍工程會預算主委請教你解凍案送來立法院了嗎\n94130\t108840\t解動換我們要執行預算30%以後才能送那目前執行到什麼程度了目前還沒有到30%所以你還沒有執行到30%你也沒有辦法送進來那沒有辦法送進來我們要怎麼解我們是\n109440\t133840\t我們判斷這種解凍方式因為我們是凍結50%的業務費嘛然後必須院會解凍同意時的凍資這個是遙遙無期但是你要先送進來委員會其實沒有遙遙無期啊 主委本席剛剛開宗明義就強調不要似是而非講清楚來 我先請教去年度公共工程委員會總預算有多少錢\n135141\t150698\t將近四億五千萬左右四億九千萬你少了四千萬今年我們核定的預算總共有多少錢它五億五左右五億五多增加了多少費用五千萬是包括人事費還有多增加了多少費用\n151158\t178462\t五千萬多增加了公共工程委員會今年核定的預算比去年多增加了五千萬整體經濟增加嘛這是主委剛剛所說明多五千萬這是必然的必然的這也是經過委員會審議經過立法院我們同意所以說立法部門行政部門我們共同認為說台灣經濟發展所以我們有增加工程會五千萬的預算立法部門並未同意\n178962\t204092\t有啊如果說沒有同意的話怎麼會最後通過我現在解凍50%就凍了1億左右主委你這樣子就似是而非了如果說沒有同意的話怎麼會到最後通過預算還沒有同意使用預算是不是立法部門到最後通過的通過裡面凍結1億啊凍結50%啊凍三減了1000多萬啊但是你現在你現在執行的數目是怎麼樣你現在執行都還沒有到超過30%啊所以其實主委\n206433\t225322\t不用似是而非我們就事論事本席從過去到現在就一直強調其實公共工程非常重要而今年的預算比去年已經多成長了五千萬還有更重要的是到目前為止工程會還沒有送進解凍案我們怎麼樣來討論\n226542\t251231\t我想交通委員會的委員一定會本職專業如果說你真的送進來說明清楚的話該解凍我們一定會解凍但重點是你什麼時候要送解凍案進來報告委員是什麼時候可以送解凍案大院的主決議是院會同意時的動之並不是交通委員會來審理委員會審查完畢之後送院會院會也會尊重委員會的意見嗎這個從來未有過的\n252571\t268953\t但是重點在於是你什麼時候要送進來這個立法院從來沒有做這樣的主委什麼時候要送進來我們你什麼時候認為送進來還是現在民進黨要搞下鄉要搞這些宣傳所以說就是明明應該是行政部門要送進來的你現在就不送\n270396\t298823\t什麼時候能夠送進來我們會依大院的規定送進來什麼時候可以送進來我們依大院的規定如果說你沒有送我們怎麼解你沒有同意動資預算我們怎麼辦金職獎你現在要解凍然後你現在又跟我講說我們要同意但你又不送解凍案我們要怎麼同意金職獎現在是要接受報名的我們要怎麼同意很多工作都在進行實際上還在進行本來延續性的計畫預算法裡面就規定很清楚主委\n299758\t312708\t不要是是而非啊預算法本來就規定的非常清楚延續性的計畫本來就可以來做一個使用但重點是你們什麼時候要把解凍案的方案送進來\n314076\t341739\t主委告訴國人你們什麼時候要送我們才能夠討論如果委員給我們一個明確的答案什麼時候能夠同意我們使用我們就決定辦或不辦主委這個就是你似是而非你連送進來的說明都沒有然後你就跟我們講說要立法部門開空白支票同意根本荒謬啊我們為什麼相關的計畫預算有些會凍結我想之前很多委員不管藍綠啊我們現在召委\n343803\t364341\t李昆哲委員他也有凍結過預算啊但是他會要求行政部門提出相關的說明之後可以解凍我們就解凍但重點是你現在連說明都沒有說明出來你就跟我們講是說一定要立法院先同意我才要送根本荒謬根本凌駕立法委員的質詢權凌駕立法委員的審查權主委\n369008\t382980\t法定國家行政機關有可以那麼的傲慢嗎所以主委能不能說明清楚你們什麼時候要送相關的計畫有沒有辦法說明清楚有沒有辦法說明清楚\n388720\t415095\t主委你不能反指許但重點是委員會會有本來就有合理的解凍的程序你不用在那邊事事而非無焦點現在就是國人大家看得清清楚楚工程委員會的主委沒有辦法向國人說明清楚你什麼時候要送解凍案你如果說沒有送解凍案的話我們何來可以審查這就是工程會主委的態度\n417949\t430834\t我們依法會受解凍本席非常的遺憾我覺得說到目前為止你還是沒有辦法針對問題回答問題沒有辦法向國人說明清楚你們到底要怎麼做能夠送入這個說明\n432446\t454009\t行政官員每一位其實下面都在偷笑因為看到聽到主委那麼的沒有這個行政的一個邏輯跟觀念你連最基本的要送入立法院來申請解凍都沒有辦法都沒有辦法承諾的時候然後你現在一直在鬼打牆講說你們什麼時候要同意你們先同意我們再送荒謬荒謬\n455875\t479444\t這就像是跟老師講說老師你先給我歐帕歐帕了我才要考試你承諾歐帕我才要考試莫名其妙主委我再請教去年你有說要現實的政府採購法規定公開招標要三家以上的合格廠商才能夠開標但是現在想要修法刪除三家的廠商門檻\n481175\t506666\t這個是我們收集各界的意見準備4月辦理預告預告所以4月會出爐4月會辦理預告那預告之後呢預告之後送行政院會審查審查通過報大院來整理那有沒有討論因為過去其實大家有在講說過猶不及有一些部分是說如果說有三家的這個門檻當然可能會造成說公開招標的一個進度上的拖延\n506946\t526771\t但另外一個部分如果說解除了這樣的一個門檻未來只要一家就能夠開標會不會有產生其他的弊端有沒有想過如何來做相關的配搭這個各界意見反映很多所以我們中理之後會來預告再聽取各界意見到時候大院審理的時候可以來所以有防弊機制\n527671\t536621\t不是 這個我們會再聽取各界意見當中是 你聽取各界意見 但你們不是要先預告嗎4月要預告的部分 你們的房地機制有沒有預想在裡面\n537741\t557856\t現在的採購方式跟過去不是電子化的時代差很多啦所以資訊完全公開透明所以我們聽取各界意見之後認為如果維持三家才能夠開標的話往往是造成流標的主要原因所以未來會只要一標一家投標就可以公開招標這是我們準備預告的草案內容\n558456\t581269\t好 那防備機制在裡面有沒有設計相關防備機制在草案裡面會有好 草案裡面會有本席等著看我們四月的公告那本席也會討論因為這還是一樣重點在於是提升政府行政效能裡面我們要思考到防備的機制所以說剛剛主委既然已經提到說有所謂防備機制我們期待工程會提出來的版本最後\n582315\t599618\t我再確認一下因為本席非常關心氣候變遷因應法所謂2050淨零碳排那其中工程會非常重要的一個部分就是有所謂的減碳作業指引那主委也講說減碳作業參考指引會預計在今年出爐請教什麼時候會出爐\n601019\t623169\t114年年底今年年底到目前目前都已經有在做執行了持續在收集資料當中好 持續在收集資料當中所以這個指引本席也要提出因為過去工程會在2022年就已經有發布公共工程節能減碳減核注意事項要求我們各機關訂定節能減碳的減核機制跟目標\n624589\t646567\t請教2022年到現在提出來哪些部門有達標哪些部門還有改進的空間這個不是標準我們持續在進進當中將來會改成我們收集相關的這個排蛋係數那麼建立一個完整的計算碳的一個這個系統然後提供給各機關在設計的時候參考\n648448\t656293\t過去要機關來填寫這個碳排的接落部分這個政策我們在逐步在調整當中\n657534\t685813\t好 那但是本席我們會改成收集係數你還是沒有回答本席的問題啊 主委本席問的是說2022年我們工程會議既然我是可以肯定的喔不管是那個時候你還不是主委那時候是吳主委嘛吳主委在的時候本席也跟他就教過因為淨零碳排本席非常重視尤其是零碳建築所以當時有提出來這個注意事項的時候我們也認為說不要一步馬上要求各部門到位但至少我們了解一下各部門在\n687333\t712188\t從2022年開始到現在2025年過去兩年的時間裡面哪一些部門比較做得好哪些部門還有加強空間我們有沒有去做了解不能用這個標準這工程會提出來的然後你跟我講說不能用這個標準減核注意事項是一個定性提醒機關說你辦理公共工程設計的時候要注意到減碳的相關作為哪些部門有做到哪些部門沒做到\n713048\t740128\t有沒有去了解因為不是強制性的因為不是強制性嘛是嘛所以主委你講出大白話了嘛第一2022年那時候提出來是工程會自己提出來的那沒有強制性也因此我們就不了解說到底哪個部門真的有比較符合這個標準哪些部門沒有因為工程會也沒有去做管考考核那現在你要再做一個檢探作業參考指引會不會有一個標準\n741228\t767527\t減碳的部分各機關他有自己會不會有一個標準會不會又變成沒有強制性你今年年底出來的會不會又是另外一個利益很良善但是沒有強制性的標準工程會的目的是要建立一個比較完整的這個減碳的所有工程的排放係數那這個排放係數是包括工程單項它每個單項排碳多少給各機關去參考\n769008\t780006\t您把工程會看小了 做小了工程會絕對不是只是提出一個標準跟各機關參考是國家重大工程的主管機關\n782235\t802786\t主委本席提出來是對於我們工程會有非常高的期待我們也希望減碳的主管機關重點在於是你是國家重大工程的主管機關能不能用國家重大工程來符合減碳的標準這才是重點主委\n803834\t831013\t本席是在野黨的委員但我絕對不是說跟你站在對立面我們一起督促是要讓國家的重大工程更好請聽本席一句話本席過去就強調如果我們現在要2050淨零碳排往前回推現在只剩25年其中零碳建築是一個很重要的參考指標我之前就提過能不能說從現在開始要求至少公部門先行\n832274\t858834\t國家的工部門的建設從現在開始就用零碳的建築標準來去做帶領私部門如果說我們連自己工部門編列預算的建築都沒有辦法達到零碳建築我們怎麼有辦法期待私部門私人的企業私人的建築來做零碳建築所以這一些部分才是我們希望工程會能夠跳出來當領頭羊的部分我可以說明嗎每一個工程有他的目標\n859815\t887863\t包括結構安全包括方便性等等減碳是其中之一所以各部門的設計是一個最適設計達到一個最好的目標減碳跟安全跟什麼是不衝突的不會因為減碳所以說犧牲安全不會因為減碳而犧牲相關的一個目標如果主委你還停留在過去20年前這種思維的話那我真的很擔憂我真的非常非常的擔憂結構不同\n889463\t911917\t所以你要選擇鋼構有選擇鋼構的理由那我跟委員報告選擇鋼構你也可以用零碳建築的方向任何事情都會有排碳沒有零碳建築可以用各種的政策目標手段2014年英國就已經宣布他們接下來2014年之後的國家重大公共工程都是用零碳建築\n912777\t932797\t別的國家做得到你現在2025年10多年之後你跟我們講說沒辦法要不要請教一下環境部我們現在在呼吸就在排碳了所以不會有零碳建築這件事情主委這樣子你完全忽略跟羅浮根不了解零碳建築的定義沒有零碳這件事情我們呼吸都在排碳\n934675\t960175\t主委怎麼會有零碳建築這件事情沒關係這個是公共工程委員會的主委所定立的方向請各位媒體朋友記得主委這一句話如果說連我們國家重大公共工程的主管機關都跟世界趨勢背道而馳的話那這就是民進黨政府的態度這就是現在環境部要定出來如果說連公共工程委員會都講說這個是沒有這件事情的話那代表國家從頭到尾都在騙人\n962917\t979336\t國家要這樣騙人嗎你要用這樣子的一個話術主委本席很務實的很專業的很理性的要來跟你做討論但是你用這樣的一個方向其實凸顯的就是你對於本身的公共工程掌握的真的不夠透徹\n980836\t995456\t我非常遺憾 謝謝跟大會報告一下我是代理召委那我們也尊重這個相關的議事的程序每位委員是6加2分鐘\n997631\t1022596\t其實另外加時的時間其實已經超過6分鐘其實已經再加8分鐘了那我們都開飯店不怕人家吃飯了但他終究是有營業時間超過營業時間我們很難再招待下去主委未來備刑官員好好針對問題回答問題我都雙方都尊重我雙方都尊重謝謝\n","txt":"主席謝謝麻煩請我們陳主委好來陳主委委員長主委好 主委本席剛剛您聽您的這個書面報告那本席也一直強調就是說我們一起努力為台灣的公共工程品質來把關更重要是我們要好好的督促我們的公共工程嘛這你同意嗎\n那所以說 公共工程重點在於是用專業數據來說話不要有任何模糊的數字你也同意嗎好 來 麥克風可以打開 沒錯那本席有看到因為昨天有這個公共工程產業在媒體刊登半版的聯合聲明要求說儘速解凍工程會的預算那本席想要知道\n主委事先知情嗎是一個廣告我們跟工程產業工會互動密切所以你事先知道我們事先知道有溝通過嗎有說明過嗎因為它裡面的重點是說儘速解凍工程會的預算不能沒有金質獎本席先強調我的核心立場我也認為金質獎很重要一定要辦非辦不可\nCOVID-19的時候我們都沒有延誤辦理金職獎了金職獎是國家重大建設發展當然要辦但儘速解凍工程會預算主委請教你解凍案送來立法院了嗎\n解動換我們要執行預算30%以後才能送那目前執行到什麼程度了目前還沒有到30%所以你還沒有執行到30%你也沒有辦法送進來那沒有辦法送進來我們要怎麼解我們是\n我們判斷這種解凍方式因為我們是凍結50%的業務費嘛然後必須院會解凍同意時的凍資這個是遙遙無期但是你要先送進來委員會其實沒有遙遙無期啊 主委本席剛剛開宗明義就強調不要似是而非講清楚來 我先請教去年度公共工程委員會總預算有多少錢\n將近四億五千萬左右四億九千萬你少了四千萬今年我們核定的預算總共有多少錢它五億五左右五億五多增加了多少費用五千萬是包括人事費還有多增加了多少費用\n五千萬多增加了公共工程委員會今年核定的預算比去年多增加了五千萬整體經濟增加嘛這是主委剛剛所說明多五千萬這是必然的必然的這也是經過委員會審議經過立法院我們同意所以說立法部門行政部門我們共同認為說台灣經濟發展所以我們有增加工程會五千萬的預算立法部門並未同意\n有啊如果說沒有同意的話怎麼會最後通過我現在解凍50%就凍了1億左右主委你這樣子就似是而非了如果說沒有同意的話怎麼會到最後通過預算還沒有同意使用預算是不是立法部門到最後通過的通過裡面凍結1億啊凍結50%啊凍三減了1000多萬啊但是你現在你現在執行的數目是怎麼樣你現在執行都還沒有到超過30%啊所以其實主委\n不用似是而非我們就事論事本席從過去到現在就一直強調其實公共工程非常重要而今年的預算比去年已經多成長了五千萬還有更重要的是到目前為止工程會還沒有送進解凍案我們怎麼樣來討論\n我想交通委員會的委員一定會本職專業如果說你真的送進來說明清楚的話該解凍我們一定會解凍但重點是你什麼時候要送解凍案進來報告委員是什麼時候可以送解凍案大院的主決議是院會同意時的動之並不是交通委員會來審理委員會審查完畢之後送院會院會也會尊重委員會的意見嗎這個從來未有過的\n但是重點在於是你什麼時候要送進來這個立法院從來沒有做這樣的主委什麼時候要送進來我們你什麼時候認為送進來還是現在民進黨要搞下鄉要搞這些宣傳所以說就是明明應該是行政部門要送進來的你現在就不送\n什麼時候能夠送進來我們會依大院的規定送進來什麼時候可以送進來我們依大院的規定如果說你沒有送我們怎麼解你沒有同意動資預算我們怎麼辦金職獎你現在要解凍然後你現在又跟我講說我們要同意但你又不送解凍案我們要怎麼同意金職獎現在是要接受報名的我們要怎麼同意很多工作都在進行實際上還在進行本來延續性的計畫預算法裡面就規定很清楚主委\n不要是是而非啊預算法本來就規定的非常清楚延續性的計畫本來就可以來做一個使用但重點是你們什麼時候要把解凍案的方案送進來\n主委告訴國人你們什麼時候要送我們才能夠討論如果委員給我們一個明確的答案什麼時候能夠同意我們使用我們就決定辦或不辦主委這個就是你似是而非你連送進來的說明都沒有然後你就跟我們講說要立法部門開空白支票同意根本荒謬啊我們為什麼相關的計畫預算有些會凍結我想之前很多委員不管藍綠啊我們現在召委\n李昆哲委員他也有凍結過預算啊但是他會要求行政部門提出相關的說明之後可以解凍我們就解凍但重點是你現在連說明都沒有說明出來你就跟我們講是說一定要立法院先同意我才要送根本荒謬根本凌駕立法委員的質詢權凌駕立法委員的審查權主委\n法定國家行政機關有可以那麼的傲慢嗎所以主委能不能說明清楚你們什麼時候要送相關的計畫有沒有辦法說明清楚有沒有辦法說明清楚\n主委你不能反指許但重點是委員會會有本來就有合理的解凍的程序你不用在那邊事事而非無焦點現在就是國人大家看得清清楚楚工程委員會的主委沒有辦法向國人說明清楚你什麼時候要送解凍案你如果說沒有送解凍案的話我們何來可以審查這就是工程會主委的態度\n我們依法會受解凍本席非常的遺憾我覺得說到目前為止你還是沒有辦法針對問題回答問題沒有辦法向國人說明清楚你們到底要怎麼做能夠送入這個說明\n行政官員每一位其實下面都在偷笑因為看到聽到主委那麼的沒有這個行政的一個邏輯跟觀念你連最基本的要送入立法院來申請解凍都沒有辦法都沒有辦法承諾的時候然後你現在一直在鬼打牆講說你們什麼時候要同意你們先同意我們再送荒謬荒謬\n這就像是跟老師講說老師你先給我歐帕歐帕了我才要考試你承諾歐帕我才要考試莫名其妙主委我再請教去年你有說要現實的政府採購法規定公開招標要三家以上的合格廠商才能夠開標但是現在想要修法刪除三家的廠商門檻\n這個是我們收集各界的意見準備4月辦理預告預告所以4月會出爐4月會辦理預告那預告之後呢預告之後送行政院會審查審查通過報大院來整理那有沒有討論因為過去其實大家有在講說過猶不及有一些部分是說如果說有三家的這個門檻當然可能會造成說公開招標的一個進度上的拖延\n但另外一個部分如果說解除了這樣的一個門檻未來只要一家就能夠開標會不會有產生其他的弊端有沒有想過如何來做相關的配搭這個各界意見反映很多所以我們中理之後會來預告再聽取各界意見到時候大院審理的時候可以來所以有防弊機制\n不是 這個我們會再聽取各界意見當中是 你聽取各界意見 但你們不是要先預告嗎4月要預告的部分 你們的房地機制有沒有預想在裡面\n現在的採購方式跟過去不是電子化的時代差很多啦所以資訊完全公開透明所以我們聽取各界意見之後認為如果維持三家才能夠開標的話往往是造成流標的主要原因所以未來會只要一標一家投標就可以公開招標這是我們準備預告的草案內容\n好 那防備機制在裡面有沒有設計相關防備機制在草案裡面會有好 草案裡面會有本席等著看我們四月的公告那本席也會討論因為這還是一樣重點在於是提升政府行政效能裡面我們要思考到防備的機制所以說剛剛主委既然已經提到說有所謂防備機制我們期待工程會提出來的版本最後\n我再確認一下因為本席非常關心氣候變遷因應法所謂2050淨零碳排那其中工程會非常重要的一個部分就是有所謂的減碳作業指引那主委也講說減碳作業參考指引會預計在今年出爐請教什麼時候會出爐\n114年年底今年年底到目前目前都已經有在做執行了持續在收集資料當中好 持續在收集資料當中所以這個指引本席也要提出因為過去工程會在2022年就已經有發布公共工程節能減碳減核注意事項要求我們各機關訂定節能減碳的減核機制跟目標\n請教2022年到現在提出來哪些部門有達標哪些部門還有改進的空間這個不是標準我們持續在進進當中將來會改成我們收集相關的這個排蛋係數那麼建立一個完整的計算碳的一個這個系統然後提供給各機關在設計的時候參考\n過去要機關來填寫這個碳排的接落部分這個政策我們在逐步在調整當中\n好 那但是本席我們會改成收集係數你還是沒有回答本席的問題啊 主委本席問的是說2022年我們工程會議既然我是可以肯定的喔不管是那個時候你還不是主委那時候是吳主委嘛吳主委在的時候本席也跟他就教過因為淨零碳排本席非常重視尤其是零碳建築所以當時有提出來這個注意事項的時候我們也認為說不要一步馬上要求各部門到位但至少我們了解一下各部門在\n從2022年開始到現在2025年過去兩年的時間裡面哪一些部門比較做得好哪些部門還有加強空間我們有沒有去做了解不能用這個標準這工程會提出來的然後你跟我講說不能用這個標準減核注意事項是一個定性提醒機關說你辦理公共工程設計的時候要注意到減碳的相關作為哪些部門有做到哪些部門沒做到\n有沒有去了解因為不是強制性的因為不是強制性嘛是嘛所以主委你講出大白話了嘛第一2022年那時候提出來是工程會自己提出來的那沒有強制性也因此我們就不了解說到底哪個部門真的有比較符合這個標準哪些部門沒有因為工程會也沒有去做管考考核那現在你要再做一個檢探作業參考指引會不會有一個標準\n減碳的部分各機關他有自己會不會有一個標準會不會又變成沒有強制性你今年年底出來的會不會又是另外一個利益很良善但是沒有強制性的標準工程會的目的是要建立一個比較完整的這個減碳的所有工程的排放係數那這個排放係數是包括工程單項它每個單項排碳多少給各機關去參考\n您把工程會看小了 做小了工程會絕對不是只是提出一個標準跟各機關參考是國家重大工程的主管機關\n主委本席提出來是對於我們工程會有非常高的期待我們也希望減碳的主管機關重點在於是你是國家重大工程的主管機關能不能用國家重大工程來符合減碳的標準這才是重點主委\n本席是在野黨的委員但我絕對不是說跟你站在對立面我們一起督促是要讓國家的重大工程更好請聽本席一句話本席過去就強調如果我們現在要2050淨零碳排往前回推現在只剩25年其中零碳建築是一個很重要的參考指標我之前就提過能不能說從現在開始要求至少公部門先行\n國家的工部門的建設從現在開始就用零碳的建築標準來去做帶領私部門如果說我們連自己工部門編列預算的建築都沒有辦法達到零碳建築我們怎麼有辦法期待私部門私人的企業私人的建築來做零碳建築所以這一些部分才是我們希望工程會能夠跳出來當領頭羊的部分我可以說明嗎每一個工程有他的目標\n包括結構安全包括方便性等等減碳是其中之一所以各部門的設計是一個最適設計達到一個最好的目標減碳跟安全跟什麼是不衝突的不會因為減碳所以說犧牲安全不會因為減碳而犧牲相關的一個目標如果主委你還停留在過去20年前這種思維的話那我真的很擔憂我真的非常非常的擔憂結構不同\n所以你要選擇鋼構有選擇鋼構的理由那我跟委員報告選擇鋼構你也可以用零碳建築的方向任何事情都會有排碳沒有零碳建築可以用各種的政策目標手段2014年英國就已經宣布他們接下來2014年之後的國家重大公共工程都是用零碳建築\n別的國家做得到你現在2025年10多年之後你跟我們講說沒辦法要不要請教一下環境部我們現在在呼吸就在排碳了所以不會有零碳建築這件事情主委這樣子你完全忽略跟羅浮根不了解零碳建築的定義沒有零碳這件事情我們呼吸都在排碳\n主委怎麼會有零碳建築這件事情沒關係這個是公共工程委員會的主委所定立的方向請各位媒體朋友記得主委這一句話如果說連我們國家重大公共工程的主管機關都跟世界趨勢背道而馳的話那這就是民進黨政府的態度這就是現在環境部要定出來如果說連公共工程委員會都講說這個是沒有這件事情的話那代表國家從頭到尾都在騙人\n國家要這樣騙人嗎你要用這樣子的一個話術主委本席很務實的很專業的很理性的要來跟你做討論但是你用這樣的一個方向其實凸顯的就是你對於本身的公共工程掌握的真的不夠透徹\n我非常遺憾 謝謝跟大會報告一下我是代理召委那我們也尊重這個相關的議事的程序每位委員是6加2分鐘\n其實另外加時的時間其實已經超過6分鐘其實已經再加8分鐘了那我們都開飯店不怕人家吃飯了但他終究是有營業時間超過營業時間我們很難再招待下去主委未來備刑官員好好針對問題回答問題我都雙方都尊重我雙方都尊重謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.096 --> 00:25.703\n主席謝謝麻煩請我們陳主委好來陳主委委員長主委好主委本席剛剛您聽您的這個書面報告那本席也一直強調就是說我們一起努力為台灣的公共工程品質來把關更重要是我們要好好的督促我們的公共工程嘛這你同意嗎\n\n00:27.495 --> 00:51.120\n那所以說公共工程重點在於是用專業數據來說話不要有任何模糊的數字你也同意嗎好來麥克風可以打開沒錯那本席有看到因為昨天有這個公共工程產業在媒體刊登半版的聯合聲明要求說儘速解凍工程會的預算那本席想要知道\n\n00:52.040 --> 01:17.776\n主委事先知情嗎是一個廣告我們跟工程產業工會互動密切所以你事先知道我們事先知道有溝通過嗎有說明過嗎因為它裡面的重點是說儘速解凍工程會的預算不能沒有金質獎本席先強調我的核心立場我也認為金質獎很重要一定要辦非辦不可\n\n01:18.476 --> 01:33.126\nCOVID-19的時候我們都沒有延誤辦理金職獎了金職獎是國家重大建設發展當然要辦但儘速解凍工程會預算主委請教你解凍案送來立法院了嗎\n\n01:34.130 --> 01:48.840\n解動換我們要執行預算30%以後才能送那目前執行到什麼程度了目前還沒有到30%所以你還沒有執行到30%你也沒有辦法送進來那沒有辦法送進來我們要怎麼解我們是\n\n01:49.440 --> 02:13.840\n我們判斷這種解凍方式因為我們是凍結50%的業務費嘛然後必須院會解凍同意時的凍資這個是遙遙無期但是你要先送進來委員會其實沒有遙遙無期啊主委本席剛剛開宗明義就強調不要似是而非講清楚來我先請教去年度公共工程委員會總預算有多少錢\n\n02:15.141 --> 02:30.698\n將近四億五千萬左右四億九千萬你少了四千萬今年我們核定的預算總共有多少錢它五億五左右五億五多增加了多少費用五千萬是包括人事費還有多增加了多少費用\n\n02:31.158 --> 02:58.462\n五千萬多增加了公共工程委員會今年核定的預算比去年多增加了五千萬整體經濟增加嘛這是主委剛剛所說明多五千萬這是必然的必然的這也是經過委員會審議經過立法院我們同意所以說立法部門行政部門我們共同認為說台灣經濟發展所以我們有增加工程會五千萬的預算立法部門並未同意\n\n02:58.962 --> 03:24.092\n有啊如果說沒有同意的話怎麼會最後通過我現在解凍50%就凍了1億左右主委你這樣子就似是而非了如果說沒有同意的話怎麼會到最後通過預算還沒有同意使用預算是不是立法部門到最後通過的通過裡面凍結1億啊凍結50%啊凍三減了1000多萬啊但是你現在你現在執行的數目是怎麼樣你現在執行都還沒有到超過30%啊所以其實主委\n\n03:26.433 --> 03:45.322\n不用似是而非我們就事論事本席從過去到現在就一直強調其實公共工程非常重要而今年的預算比去年已經多成長了五千萬還有更重要的是到目前為止工程會還沒有送進解凍案我們怎麼樣來討論\n\n03:46.542 --> 04:11.231\n我想交通委員會的委員一定會本職專業如果說你真的送進來說明清楚的話該解凍我們一定會解凍但重點是你什麼時候要送解凍案進來報告委員是什麼時候可以送解凍案大院的主決議是院會同意時的動之並不是交通委員會來審理委員會審查完畢之後送院會院會也會尊重委員會的意見嗎這個從來未有過的\n\n04:12.571 --> 04:28.953\n但是重點在於是你什麼時候要送進來這個立法院從來沒有做這樣的主委什麼時候要送進來我們你什麼時候認為送進來還是現在民進黨要搞下鄉要搞這些宣傳所以說就是明明應該是行政部門要送進來的你現在就不送\n\n04:30.396 --> 04:58.823\n什麼時候能夠送進來我們會依大院的規定送進來什麼時候可以送進來我們依大院的規定如果說你沒有送我們怎麼解你沒有同意動資預算我們怎麼辦金職獎你現在要解凍然後你現在又跟我講說我們要同意但你又不送解凍案我們要怎麼同意金職獎現在是要接受報名的我們要怎麼同意很多工作都在進行實際上還在進行本來延續性的計畫預算法裡面就規定很清楚主委\n\n04:59.758 --> 05:12.708\n不要是是而非啊預算法本來就規定的非常清楚延續性的計畫本來就可以來做一個使用但重點是你們什麼時候要把解凍案的方案送進來\n\n05:14.076 --> 05:41.739\n主委告訴國人你們什麼時候要送我們才能夠討論如果委員給我們一個明確的答案什麼時候能夠同意我們使用我們就決定辦或不辦主委這個就是你似是而非你連送進來的說明都沒有然後你就跟我們講說要立法部門開空白支票同意根本荒謬啊我們為什麼相關的計畫預算有些會凍結我想之前很多委員不管藍綠啊我們現在召委\n\n05:43.803 --> 06:04.341\n李昆哲委員他也有凍結過預算啊但是他會要求行政部門提出相關的說明之後可以解凍我們就解凍但重點是你現在連說明都沒有說明出來你就跟我們講是說一定要立法院先同意我才要送根本荒謬根本凌駕立法委員的質詢權凌駕立法委員的審查權主委\n\n06:09.008 --> 06:22.980\n法定國家行政機關有可以那麼的傲慢嗎所以主委能不能說明清楚你們什麼時候要送相關的計畫有沒有辦法說明清楚有沒有辦法說明清楚\n\n06:28.720 --> 06:55.095\n主委你不能反指許但重點是委員會會有本來就有合理的解凍的程序你不用在那邊事事而非無焦點現在就是國人大家看得清清楚楚工程委員會的主委沒有辦法向國人說明清楚你什麼時候要送解凍案你如果說沒有送解凍案的話我們何來可以審查這就是工程會主委的態度\n\n06:57.949 --> 07:10.834\n我們依法會受解凍本席非常的遺憾我覺得說到目前為止你還是沒有辦法針對問題回答問題沒有辦法向國人說明清楚你們到底要怎麼做能夠送入這個說明\n\n07:12.446 --> 07:34.009\n行政官員每一位其實下面都在偷笑因為看到聽到主委那麼的沒有這個行政的一個邏輯跟觀念你連最基本的要送入立法院來申請解凍都沒有辦法都沒有辦法承諾的時候然後你現在一直在鬼打牆講說你們什麼時候要同意你們先同意我們再送荒謬荒謬\n\n07:35.875 --> 07:59.444\n這就像是跟老師講說老師你先給我歐帕歐帕了我才要考試你承諾歐帕我才要考試莫名其妙主委我再請教去年你有說要現實的政府採購法規定公開招標要三家以上的合格廠商才能夠開標但是現在想要修法刪除三家的廠商門檻\n\n08:01.175 --> 08:26.666\n這個是我們收集各界的意見準備4月辦理預告預告所以4月會出爐4月會辦理預告那預告之後呢預告之後送行政院會審查審查通過報大院來整理那有沒有討論因為過去其實大家有在講說過猶不及有一些部分是說如果說有三家的這個門檻當然可能會造成說公開招標的一個進度上的拖延\n\n08:26.946 --> 08:46.771\n但另外一個部分如果說解除了這樣的一個門檻未來只要一家就能夠開標會不會有產生其他的弊端有沒有想過如何來做相關的配搭這個各界意見反映很多所以我們中理之後會來預告再聽取各界意見到時候大院審理的時候可以來所以有防弊機制\n\n08:47.671 --> 08:56.621\n不是這個我們會再聽取各界意見當中是你聽取各界意見但你們不是要先預告嗎4月要預告的部分你們的房地機制有沒有預想在裡面\n\n08:57.741 --> 09:17.856\n現在的採購方式跟過去不是電子化的時代差很多啦所以資訊完全公開透明所以我們聽取各界意見之後認為如果維持三家才能夠開標的話往往是造成流標的主要原因所以未來會只要一標一家投標就可以公開招標這是我們準備預告的草案內容\n\n09:18.456 --> 09:41.269\n好那防備機制在裡面有沒有設計相關防備機制在草案裡面會有好草案裡面會有本席等著看我們四月的公告那本席也會討論因為這還是一樣重點在於是提升政府行政效能裡面我們要思考到防備的機制所以說剛剛主委既然已經提到說有所謂防備機制我們期待工程會提出來的版本最後\n\n09:42.315 --> 09:59.618\n我再確認一下因為本席非常關心氣候變遷因應法所謂2050淨零碳排那其中工程會非常重要的一個部分就是有所謂的減碳作業指引那主委也講說減碳作業參考指引會預計在今年出爐請教什麼時候會出爐\n\n10:01.019 --> 10:23.169\n114年年底今年年底到目前目前都已經有在做執行了持續在收集資料當中好持續在收集資料當中所以這個指引本席也要提出因為過去工程會在2022年就已經有發布公共工程節能減碳減核注意事項要求我們各機關訂定節能減碳的減核機制跟目標\n\n10:24.589 --> 10:46.567\n請教2022年到現在提出來哪些部門有達標哪些部門還有改進的空間這個不是標準我們持續在進進當中將來會改成我們收集相關的這個排蛋係數那麼建立一個完整的計算碳的一個這個系統然後提供給各機關在設計的時候參考\n\n10:48.448 --> 10:56.293\n過去要機關來填寫這個碳排的接落部分這個政策我們在逐步在調整當中\n\n10:57.534 --> 11:25.813\n好那但是本席我們會改成收集係數你還是沒有回答本席的問題啊主委本席問的是說2022年我們工程會議既然我是可以肯定的喔不管是那個時候你還不是主委那時候是吳主委嘛吳主委在的時候本席也跟他就教過因為淨零碳排本席非常重視尤其是零碳建築所以當時有提出來這個注意事項的時候我們也認為說不要一步馬上要求各部門到位但至少我們了解一下各部門在\n\n11:27.333 --> 11:52.188\n從2022年開始到現在2025年過去兩年的時間裡面哪一些部門比較做得好哪些部門還有加強空間我們有沒有去做了解不能用這個標準這工程會提出來的然後你跟我講說不能用這個標準減核注意事項是一個定性提醒機關說你辦理公共工程設計的時候要注意到減碳的相關作為哪些部門有做到哪些部門沒做到\n\n11:53.048 --> 12:20.128\n有沒有去了解因為不是強制性的因為不是強制性嘛是嘛所以主委你講出大白話了嘛第一2022年那時候提出來是工程會自己提出來的那沒有強制性也因此我們就不了解說到底哪個部門真的有比較符合這個標準哪些部門沒有因為工程會也沒有去做管考考核那現在你要再做一個檢探作業參考指引會不會有一個標準\n\n12:21.228 --> 12:47.527\n減碳的部分各機關他有自己會不會有一個標準會不會又變成沒有強制性你今年年底出來的會不會又是另外一個利益很良善但是沒有強制性的標準工程會的目的是要建立一個比較完整的這個減碳的所有工程的排放係數那這個排放係數是包括工程單項它每個單項排碳多少給各機關去參考\n\n12:49.008 --> 13:00.006\n您把工程會看小了做小了工程會絕對不是只是提出一個標準跟各機關參考是國家重大工程的主管機關\n\n13:02.235 --> 13:22.786\n主委本席提出來是對於我們工程會有非常高的期待我們也希望減碳的主管機關重點在於是你是國家重大工程的主管機關能不能用國家重大工程來符合減碳的標準這才是重點主委\n\n13:23.834 --> 13:51.013\n本席是在野黨的委員但我絕對不是說跟你站在對立面我們一起督促是要讓國家的重大工程更好請聽本席一句話本席過去就強調如果我們現在要2050淨零碳排往前回推現在只剩25年其中零碳建築是一個很重要的參考指標我之前就提過能不能說從現在開始要求至少公部門先行\n\n13:52.274 --> 14:18.834\n國家的工部門的建設從現在開始就用零碳的建築標準來去做帶領私部門如果說我們連自己工部門編列預算的建築都沒有辦法達到零碳建築我們怎麼有辦法期待私部門私人的企業私人的建築來做零碳建築所以這一些部分才是我們希望工程會能夠跳出來當領頭羊的部分我可以說明嗎每一個工程有他的目標\n\n14:19.815 --> 14:47.863\n包括結構安全包括方便性等等減碳是其中之一所以各部門的設計是一個最適設計達到一個最好的目標減碳跟安全跟什麼是不衝突的不會因為減碳所以說犧牲安全不會因為減碳而犧牲相關的一個目標如果主委你還停留在過去20年前這種思維的話那我真的很擔憂我真的非常非常的擔憂結構不同\n\n14:49.463 --> 15:11.917\n所以你要選擇鋼構有選擇鋼構的理由那我跟委員報告選擇鋼構你也可以用零碳建築的方向任何事情都會有排碳沒有零碳建築可以用各種的政策目標手段2014年英國就已經宣布他們接下來2014年之後的國家重大公共工程都是用零碳建築\n\n15:12.777 --> 15:32.797\n別的國家做得到你現在2025年10多年之後你跟我們講說沒辦法要不要請教一下環境部我們現在在呼吸就在排碳了所以不會有零碳建築這件事情主委這樣子你完全忽略跟羅浮根不了解零碳建築的定義沒有零碳這件事情我們呼吸都在排碳\n\n15:34.675 --> 16:00.175\n主委怎麼會有零碳建築這件事情沒關係這個是公共工程委員會的主委所定立的方向請各位媒體朋友記得主委這一句話如果說連我們國家重大公共工程的主管機關都跟世界趨勢背道而馳的話那這就是民進黨政府的態度這就是現在環境部要定出來如果說連公共工程委員會都講說這個是沒有這件事情的話那代表國家從頭到尾都在騙人\n\n16:02.917 --> 16:19.336\n國家要這樣騙人嗎你要用這樣子的一個話術主委本席很務實的很專業的很理性的要來跟你做討論但是你用這樣的一個方向其實凸顯的就是你對於本身的公共工程掌握的真的不夠透徹\n\n16:20.836 --> 16:35.456\n我非常遺憾謝謝跟大會報告一下我是代理召委那我們也尊重這個相關的議事的程序每位委員是6加2分鐘\n\n16:37.631 --> 17:02.596\n其實另外加時的時間其實已經超過6分鐘其實已經再加8分鐘了那我們都開飯店不怕人家吃飯了但他終究是有營業時間超過營業時間我們很難再招待下去主委未來備刑官員好好針對問題回答問題我都雙方都尊重我雙方都尊重謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.096,"end":25.703,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請我們陳主委好來陳主委委員長主委好 主委本席剛剛您聽您的這個書面報告那本席也一直強調就是說我們一起努力為台灣的公共工程品質來把關更重要是我們要好好的督促我們的公共工程嘛這你同意嗎"},{"start":27.495,"end":51.12,"text":"那所以說 公共工程重點在於是用專業數據來說話不要有任何模糊的數字你也同意嗎好 來 麥克風可以打開 沒錯那本席有看到因為昨天有這個公共工程產業在媒體刊登半版的聯合聲明要求說儘速解凍工程會的預算那本席想要知道"},{"start":52.04,"end":77.776,"text":"主委事先知情嗎是一個廣告我們跟工程產業工會互動密切所以你事先知道我們事先知道有溝通過嗎有說明過嗎因為它裡面的重點是說儘速解凍工程會的預算不能沒有金質獎本席先強調我的核心立場我也認為金質獎很重要一定要辦非辦不可"},{"start":78.476,"end":93.126,"text":"COVID-19的時候我們都沒有延誤辦理金職獎了金職獎是國家重大建設發展當然要辦但儘速解凍工程會預算主委請教你解凍案送來立法院了嗎"},{"start":94.13,"end":108.84,"text":"解動換我們要執行預算30%以後才能送那目前執行到什麼程度了目前還沒有到30%所以你還沒有執行到30%你也沒有辦法送進來那沒有辦法送進來我們要怎麼解我們是"},{"start":109.44,"end":133.84,"text":"我們判斷這種解凍方式因為我們是凍結50%的業務費嘛然後必須院會解凍同意時的凍資這個是遙遙無期但是你要先送進來委員會其實沒有遙遙無期啊 主委本席剛剛開宗明義就強調不要似是而非講清楚來 我先請教去年度公共工程委員會總預算有多少錢"},{"start":135.141,"end":150.698,"text":"將近四億五千萬左右四億九千萬你少了四千萬今年我們核定的預算總共有多少錢它五億五左右五億五多增加了多少費用五千萬是包括人事費還有多增加了多少費用"},{"start":151.158,"end":178.462,"text":"五千萬多增加了公共工程委員會今年核定的預算比去年多增加了五千萬整體經濟增加嘛這是主委剛剛所說明多五千萬這是必然的必然的這也是經過委員會審議經過立法院我們同意所以說立法部門行政部門我們共同認為說台灣經濟發展所以我們有增加工程會五千萬的預算立法部門並未同意"},{"start":178.962,"end":204.092,"text":"有啊如果說沒有同意的話怎麼會最後通過我現在解凍50%就凍了1億左右主委你這樣子就似是而非了如果說沒有同意的話怎麼會到最後通過預算還沒有同意使用預算是不是立法部門到最後通過的通過裡面凍結1億啊凍結50%啊凍三減了1000多萬啊但是你現在你現在執行的數目是怎麼樣你現在執行都還沒有到超過30%啊所以其實主委"},{"start":206.433,"end":225.322,"text":"不用似是而非我們就事論事本席從過去到現在就一直強調其實公共工程非常重要而今年的預算比去年已經多成長了五千萬還有更重要的是到目前為止工程會還沒有送進解凍案我們怎麼樣來討論"},{"start":226.542,"end":251.231,"text":"我想交通委員會的委員一定會本職專業如果說你真的送進來說明清楚的話該解凍我們一定會解凍但重點是你什麼時候要送解凍案進來報告委員是什麼時候可以送解凍案大院的主決議是院會同意時的動之並不是交通委員會來審理委員會審查完畢之後送院會院會也會尊重委員會的意見嗎這個從來未有過的"},{"start":252.571,"end":268.953,"text":"但是重點在於是你什麼時候要送進來這個立法院從來沒有做這樣的主委什麼時候要送進來我們你什麼時候認為送進來還是現在民進黨要搞下鄉要搞這些宣傳所以說就是明明應該是行政部門要送進來的你現在就不送"},{"start":270.396,"end":298.823,"text":"什麼時候能夠送進來我們會依大院的規定送進來什麼時候可以送進來我們依大院的規定如果說你沒有送我們怎麼解你沒有同意動資預算我們怎麼辦金職獎你現在要解凍然後你現在又跟我講說我們要同意但你又不送解凍案我們要怎麼同意金職獎現在是要接受報名的我們要怎麼同意很多工作都在進行實際上還在進行本來延續性的計畫預算法裡面就規定很清楚主委"},{"start":299.758,"end":312.708,"text":"不要是是而非啊預算法本來就規定的非常清楚延續性的計畫本來就可以來做一個使用但重點是你們什麼時候要把解凍案的方案送進來"},{"start":314.076,"end":341.739,"text":"主委告訴國人你們什麼時候要送我們才能夠討論如果委員給我們一個明確的答案什麼時候能夠同意我們使用我們就決定辦或不辦主委這個就是你似是而非你連送進來的說明都沒有然後你就跟我們講說要立法部門開空白支票同意根本荒謬啊我們為什麼相關的計畫預算有些會凍結我想之前很多委員不管藍綠啊我們現在召委"},{"start":343.803,"end":364.341,"text":"李昆哲委員他也有凍結過預算啊但是他會要求行政部門提出相關的說明之後可以解凍我們就解凍但重點是你現在連說明都沒有說明出來你就跟我們講是說一定要立法院先同意我才要送根本荒謬根本凌駕立法委員的質詢權凌駕立法委員的審查權主委"},{"start":369.008,"end":382.98,"text":"法定國家行政機關有可以那麼的傲慢嗎所以主委能不能說明清楚你們什麼時候要送相關的計畫有沒有辦法說明清楚有沒有辦法說明清楚"},{"start":388.72,"end":415.095,"text":"主委你不能反指許但重點是委員會會有本來就有合理的解凍的程序你不用在那邊事事而非無焦點現在就是國人大家看得清清楚楚工程委員會的主委沒有辦法向國人說明清楚你什麼時候要送解凍案你如果說沒有送解凍案的話我們何來可以審查這就是工程會主委的態度"},{"start":417.949,"end":430.834,"text":"我們依法會受解凍本席非常的遺憾我覺得說到目前為止你還是沒有辦法針對問題回答問題沒有辦法向國人說明清楚你們到底要怎麼做能夠送入這個說明"},{"start":432.446,"end":454.009,"text":"行政官員每一位其實下面都在偷笑因為看到聽到主委那麼的沒有這個行政的一個邏輯跟觀念你連最基本的要送入立法院來申請解凍都沒有辦法都沒有辦法承諾的時候然後你現在一直在鬼打牆講說你們什麼時候要同意你們先同意我們再送荒謬荒謬"},{"start":455.875,"end":479.444,"text":"這就像是跟老師講說老師你先給我歐帕歐帕了我才要考試你承諾歐帕我才要考試莫名其妙主委我再請教去年你有說要現實的政府採購法規定公開招標要三家以上的合格廠商才能夠開標但是現在想要修法刪除三家的廠商門檻"},{"start":481.175,"end":506.666,"text":"這個是我們收集各界的意見準備4月辦理預告預告所以4月會出爐4月會辦理預告那預告之後呢預告之後送行政院會審查審查通過報大院來整理那有沒有討論因為過去其實大家有在講說過猶不及有一些部分是說如果說有三家的這個門檻當然可能會造成說公開招標的一個進度上的拖延"},{"start":506.946,"end":526.771,"text":"但另外一個部分如果說解除了這樣的一個門檻未來只要一家就能夠開標會不會有產生其他的弊端有沒有想過如何來做相關的配搭這個各界意見反映很多所以我們中理之後會來預告再聽取各界意見到時候大院審理的時候可以來所以有防弊機制"},{"start":527.671,"end":536.621,"text":"不是 這個我們會再聽取各界意見當中是 你聽取各界意見 但你們不是要先預告嗎4月要預告的部分 你們的房地機制有沒有預想在裡面"},{"start":537.741,"end":557.856,"text":"現在的採購方式跟過去不是電子化的時代差很多啦所以資訊完全公開透明所以我們聽取各界意見之後認為如果維持三家才能夠開標的話往往是造成流標的主要原因所以未來會只要一標一家投標就可以公開招標這是我們準備預告的草案內容"},{"start":558.456,"end":581.269,"text":"好 那防備機制在裡面有沒有設計相關防備機制在草案裡面會有好 草案裡面會有本席等著看我們四月的公告那本席也會討論因為這還是一樣重點在於是提升政府行政效能裡面我們要思考到防備的機制所以說剛剛主委既然已經提到說有所謂防備機制我們期待工程會提出來的版本最後"},{"start":582.315,"end":599.618,"text":"我再確認一下因為本席非常關心氣候變遷因應法所謂2050淨零碳排那其中工程會非常重要的一個部分就是有所謂的減碳作業指引那主委也講說減碳作業參考指引會預計在今年出爐請教什麼時候會出爐"},{"start":601.019,"end":623.169,"text":"114年年底今年年底到目前目前都已經有在做執行了持續在收集資料當中好 持續在收集資料當中所以這個指引本席也要提出因為過去工程會在2022年就已經有發布公共工程節能減碳減核注意事項要求我們各機關訂定節能減碳的減核機制跟目標"},{"start":624.589,"end":646.567,"text":"請教2022年到現在提出來哪些部門有達標哪些部門還有改進的空間這個不是標準我們持續在進進當中將來會改成我們收集相關的這個排蛋係數那麼建立一個完整的計算碳的一個這個系統然後提供給各機關在設計的時候參考"},{"start":648.448,"end":656.293,"text":"過去要機關來填寫這個碳排的接落部分這個政策我們在逐步在調整當中"},{"start":657.534,"end":685.813,"text":"好 那但是本席我們會改成收集係數你還是沒有回答本席的問題啊 主委本席問的是說2022年我們工程會議既然我是可以肯定的喔不管是那個時候你還不是主委那時候是吳主委嘛吳主委在的時候本席也跟他就教過因為淨零碳排本席非常重視尤其是零碳建築所以當時有提出來這個注意事項的時候我們也認為說不要一步馬上要求各部門到位但至少我們了解一下各部門在"},{"start":687.333,"end":712.188,"text":"從2022年開始到現在2025年過去兩年的時間裡面哪一些部門比較做得好哪些部門還有加強空間我們有沒有去做了解不能用這個標準這工程會提出來的然後你跟我講說不能用這個標準減核注意事項是一個定性提醒機關說你辦理公共工程設計的時候要注意到減碳的相關作為哪些部門有做到哪些部門沒做到"},{"start":713.048,"end":740.128,"text":"有沒有去了解因為不是強制性的因為不是強制性嘛是嘛所以主委你講出大白話了嘛第一2022年那時候提出來是工程會自己提出來的那沒有強制性也因此我們就不了解說到底哪個部門真的有比較符合這個標準哪些部門沒有因為工程會也沒有去做管考考核那現在你要再做一個檢探作業參考指引會不會有一個標準"},{"start":741.228,"end":767.527,"text":"減碳的部分各機關他有自己會不會有一個標準會不會又變成沒有強制性你今年年底出來的會不會又是另外一個利益很良善但是沒有強制性的標準工程會的目的是要建立一個比較完整的這個減碳的所有工程的排放係數那這個排放係數是包括工程單項它每個單項排碳多少給各機關去參考"},{"start":769.008,"end":780.006,"text":"您把工程會看小了 做小了工程會絕對不是只是提出一個標準跟各機關參考是國家重大工程的主管機關"},{"start":782.235,"end":802.786,"text":"主委本席提出來是對於我們工程會有非常高的期待我們也希望減碳的主管機關重點在於是你是國家重大工程的主管機關能不能用國家重大工程來符合減碳的標準這才是重點主委"},{"start":803.834,"end":831.013,"text":"本席是在野黨的委員但我絕對不是說跟你站在對立面我們一起督促是要讓國家的重大工程更好請聽本席一句話本席過去就強調如果我們現在要2050淨零碳排往前回推現在只剩25年其中零碳建築是一個很重要的參考指標我之前就提過能不能說從現在開始要求至少公部門先行"},{"start":832.274,"end":858.834,"text":"國家的工部門的建設從現在開始就用零碳的建築標準來去做帶領私部門如果說我們連自己工部門編列預算的建築都沒有辦法達到零碳建築我們怎麼有辦法期待私部門私人的企業私人的建築來做零碳建築所以這一些部分才是我們希望工程會能夠跳出來當領頭羊的部分我可以說明嗎每一個工程有他的目標"},{"start":859.815,"end":887.863,"text":"包括結構安全包括方便性等等減碳是其中之一所以各部門的設計是一個最適設計達到一個最好的目標減碳跟安全跟什麼是不衝突的不會因為減碳所以說犧牲安全不會因為減碳而犧牲相關的一個目標如果主委你還停留在過去20年前這種思維的話那我真的很擔憂我真的非常非常的擔憂結構不同"},{"start":889.463,"end":911.917,"text":"所以你要選擇鋼構有選擇鋼構的理由那我跟委員報告選擇鋼構你也可以用零碳建築的方向任何事情都會有排碳沒有零碳建築可以用各種的政策目標手段2014年英國就已經宣布他們接下來2014年之後的國家重大公共工程都是用零碳建築"},{"start":912.777,"end":932.797,"text":"別的國家做得到你現在2025年10多年之後你跟我們講說沒辦法要不要請教一下環境部我們現在在呼吸就在排碳了所以不會有零碳建築這件事情主委這樣子你完全忽略跟羅浮根不了解零碳建築的定義沒有零碳這件事情我們呼吸都在排碳"},{"start":934.675,"end":960.175,"text":"主委怎麼會有零碳建築這件事情沒關係這個是公共工程委員會的主委所定立的方向請各位媒體朋友記得主委這一句話如果說連我們國家重大公共工程的主管機關都跟世界趨勢背道而馳的話那這就是民進黨政府的態度這就是現在環境部要定出來如果說連公共工程委員會都講說這個是沒有這件事情的話那代表國家從頭到尾都在騙人"},{"start":962.917,"end":979.336,"text":"國家要這樣騙人嗎你要用這樣子的一個話術主委本席很務實的很專業的很理性的要來跟你做討論但是你用這樣的一個方向其實凸顯的就是你對於本身的公共工程掌握的真的不夠透徹"},{"start":980.836,"end":995.456,"text":"我非常遺憾 謝謝跟大會報告一下我是代理召委那我們也尊重這個相關的議事的程序每位委員是6加2分鐘"},{"start":997.631,"end":1022.596,"text":"其實另外加時的時間其實已經超過6分鐘其實已經再加8分鐘了那我們都開飯店不怕人家吃飯了但他終究是有營業時間超過營業時間我們很難再招待下去主委未來備刑官員好好針對問題回答問題我都雙方都尊重我雙方都尊重謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":114,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時24分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請陳主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委好。主委，本席剛剛聆聽你的書面報告，本席也一直強調，我們一起努力為臺灣的公共工程品質來把關，更重要的是，我們要好好的督促我們的公共工程，這你同意嘛？"],["陳主任委員金德：同意。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以公共工程重點在於是用專業數據來說話，不要有任何模糊的數字，你也同意嘛？"],["陳主任委員金德：同意。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，來，麥克風可以打開。"],["陳主任委員金德：沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席昨天有看到公共工程產業在媒體刊登半版的聯合聲明，要求儘速解凍工程會的預算，本席想要知道，主委事先知情這個廣告嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們跟各工程產業公會互動密切，我們事先知道他們有這樣建議。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你事先知道，有溝通過嗎？有說明過嗎？因為它的重點是儘速解凍工程會的預算，不能沒有金質獎，本席先強調我的核心立場，我也認為金質獎很重要，一定要辦、非辦不可，COVID-19的時候我們都沒有延誤辦理金質獎了，金質獎是國家重大建設發展，當然要辦，但儘速解凍工程會預算，主委，請教解凍案送來立法院了嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：解凍案要執行預算30%以後才能送。"],["洪委員孟楷：目前執行到什麼程度了？"],["陳主任委員金德：目前還沒有到30%。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你還沒有執行到30%，也沒有辦法送進來，那我們要怎麼解？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們判斷這種解凍方式因為是凍結50%的業務費，必須院會解凍、同意始得動支，這是遙遙無期啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：但是你要先送進來委員會，其實沒有遙遙無期啊！主委，本席剛剛開宗明義就強調不要似是而非，講清楚。我先請教，去年度公共工程委員會總預算有多少錢？"],["陳主任委員金德：將近4億5,000萬左右。"],["洪委員孟楷：是4億9,000萬，你少了4,000萬。今年我們核定的預算總共有多少錢？"],["陳主任委員金德：大概5億5左右。"],["洪委員孟楷：5億5，多增加了多少費用？"],["陳主任委員金德：5,000萬是包括人事費，還有……"],["洪委員孟楷：多增加了多少費用？"],["陳主任委員金德：5,000萬，包括增加了加薪……"],["洪委員孟楷：公共工程委員會今年核定的預算比去年多增加了5,000萬。"],["陳主任委員金德：整體經濟增加嘛！所以業務增加……"],["洪委員孟楷：這是主委剛剛所說的……"],["陳主任委員金德：多5,000萬這是必然的。"],["洪委員孟楷：必然的？這也是經過委員會審議、經過立法院我們同意，立法部門、行政部門共同認為臺灣經濟發展，所以我們有增加工程會5,000萬的預算。"],["陳主任委員金德：立法部門並未同意。"],["洪委員孟楷：有啊！如果說沒有同意的話，怎麼會最後通過。"],["陳主任委員金德：要先解凍50%，就凍了1億左右。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委你這樣子就是似是而非了。如果沒有同意的話，怎麼會到最後通過預算？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為還沒有同意使用。"],["洪委員孟楷：預算是不是立法部門最後通過的？"],["陳主任委員金德：通過裡面的凍結1億、凍結50%啊！刪減了一千多萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：但你現在執行的數目是怎麼樣？你現在執行都還沒有超過30%。所以主委不用似是而非，我們就事論事。"],["陳主任委員金德：我跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席從過去到現在就一直強調公共工程非常重要，而今年的預算比去年已經多成長了5,000萬，還有更重要的是，到目前為止工程會還沒有送進解凍案，我們該怎麼樣討論？我想交通委員會的委員一定會秉持專業，如果你真的送進來說明清楚的話，該解凍一定會解凍，但重點是你什麼時候要送解凍案進來？什麼時候可以送解凍案？"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，大院的主決議是院會同意始得動支，並不是交通委員會來審理……"],["洪委員孟楷：委員會審查完畢之後送院會，院會也會尊重委員會的意見。"],["陳主任委員金德：這個從來未有過的。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是重點在於是你什麼時候送進來？"],["陳主任委員金德：立法院從來沒有做這樣的處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委什麼時候要送進來？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們依照……"],["洪委員孟楷：你認為什麼時候要送進來？還是現在民進黨要搞下鄉、搞這些宣傳，所以明明應該是行政部門要送進來的，你現在就不送！什麼時候能夠送進來？"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，我們會依大院的規定送進來。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候可以送進來？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們依大院規定。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果說你沒有送，我們怎麼解？"],["陳主任委員金德：你沒有同意動支預算，我們怎麼辦金質獎？"],["洪委員孟楷：你現在要解凍，然後你現在又跟我講我們要同意，但你又不送解凍案，我們要怎麼同意？"],["陳主任委員金德：金質獎現在就要接受報名了。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們要怎麼同意？"],["陳主任委員金德：很多工作都在進行。要辦不辦……"],["洪委員孟楷：時程都還在進行，本來延續性的計畫在預算法裡就規定的很清楚，主委不要似是而非。"],["陳主任委員金德：這是當年度的預算。"],["洪委員孟楷：預算法本來就規定的非常清楚，延續性的計畫，本來就可以使用。"],["陳主任委員金德：這是當年度的預算。"],["洪委員孟楷：但重點是你們什麼時候要把解凍案的方案送進來？主委，告訴國人，你們什麼時候要送，我們才能夠討論？"],["陳主任委員金德：如果委員給我們一個明確的答案什麼時候同意我們使用，我們就決定辦或不辦？"],["洪委員孟楷：主委這個就是你似是而非，你連送進來的說明都沒有，然後你就要我們立法部門開空白支票同意，根本荒謬啊！我們為什麼相關計畫的預算有些會凍結？不管藍綠之前很多委員，現在召委李昆澤委員也有凍結過預算啊！他會要求行政部門提出相關的說明之後，可以解凍我們就解凍，但重點是你現在連說明都沒有出來，你就跟我們說一定要立法院先同意我才要送，根本荒謬。"],["陳主任委員金德：那請問委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：根本凌駕立法委員的質詢權、凌駕立法委員的審查權。主委，法定國家行政機關可以那麼傲慢嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，院會同意始得動支這件事，很難執行。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，能不能說明清楚你們什麼時候要送相關的計畫？"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，院會怎麼解凍，到現在……"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有辦法說明清楚？"],["陳主任委員金德：那請問委員，院會如何解凍？程序上怎麼解凍？"],["洪委員孟楷：主委你不能反質詢。"],["陳主任委員金德：我是請教……"],["洪委員孟楷：但重點是委員會本來就有合理的解凍程序，你不用在那邊似是而非、模糊焦點。"],["陳主任委員金德：我從來沒碰過院會同意始得動支這種解凍方式。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在國人大家看得清清楚楚，工程委員會的主委沒有辦法向國人說明清楚什麼時候要送解凍案？如果說沒有送解凍的話，我們何來可以審查？這就是工程會主委的態度，對吧？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們依法會送解凍案，請大院幫忙。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，本席非常的遺憾，我覺得到目前為止你還是沒有辦法針對問題回答問題，沒有辦法向國人說明清楚你們到底要怎麼做，能夠送入解凍說明。其實行政官員每一位都在下面偷笑，因為看到、聽到主委那麼沒有行政的邏輯跟觀念，你連最基本的要送入立法院來申請解凍都沒有辦法承諾的時候，還一直鬼打牆說我們什麼時候先同意你們再送，荒謬！這就像是跟老師講說「老師你先承諾給我all pass，我才要考試」，莫名其妙。","主委，我再請教，去年你說現行政府採購法的規定，公開招標要3家以上的合格廠商才能夠開標，但是現在想要修法刪除3家的廠商門檻，是不是？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個是我們蒐集各界的意見準備4月辦理修法內容的預告。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以4月會出爐？"],["陳主任委員金德：4月會辦理預告。"],["洪委員孟楷：那預告之後呢？"],["陳主任委員金德：預告後送行政院院會審查，通過後報大院審理。"],["洪委員孟楷：那有沒有討論？因為過去大家有在講過猶不及，有些部分如果有3家的門檻，可能會造成公開招標進度的拖延，但另外一個部分，如果解除了這樣的門檻，未來只要1家就能夠開標，會不會產生其他的弊端？有沒有想過如何來做相關的配套？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個各界意見反映很多，所以我們綜理之後會預告，再聽取各界意見，到時候大院審理的時候，可以完成實質審查。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以有防弊機制？"],["陳主任委員金德：不是，這個我們還在聽取各界意見當中。"],["洪委員孟楷：你聽取各界意見，但你們不是要先預告嗎？你們的防弊機制有沒有預想在4月的預告裡面？"],["陳主任委員金德：現在的採購方式跟過去不是電子化的時代差很多，資訊完全公開透明，所以我們聽取各界意見之後，認為如果維持3家才能夠開標，往往是造成流標的主要原因……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以未來會只要1家投標就可以公開招標。"],["陳主任委員金德：這是我們準備預告的草案內容。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那在裡面有沒有設計防弊機制？"],["陳主任委員金德：在草案裡面會有相關防弊機制。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，草案裡面會有，本席等著看我們4月的公告。那本席也會討論，因為還是一樣，重點在於提升政府行政效能裡面，我們要思考到防弊機制，所以剛剛主委既然已經提到防弊機制，我們期待工程會提出來的版本。","最後我再確認一下，因為本席非常關心氣候變遷因應法所謂的2050淨零碳排，其中工程會非常重要的部分就是所謂的減碳作業指引，主委也說減碳作業參考指引預計在今年出爐，請教什麼時候會出爐？"],["陳主任委員金德：114年年底。"],["洪委員孟楷：今年年底，目前都已經有在執行了？"],["陳主任委員金德：持續在蒐集資料當中。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，持續在蒐集資料當中。所以這個指引本席也要提出，因為過去工程會在2022年就已經有發布「公共工程節能減碳檢核注意事項」，要求各機關訂定節能減碳的檢核機制跟目標。請教從2022年提出來到現在，哪些部門有達標，哪些部門還有改進的空間？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個不是標準，我們持續在精進當中，將來會改成我們蒐集相關的排碳係數，建立一個完整計算碳的系統，然後提供給各機關在設計的時候參考，過去要機關來填寫碳排的揭露部分，這個政策我們在逐步調整當中，我們會改成蒐集係數。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，你還是沒有回答本席的問題。"],["陳主任委員金德：這個也……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席問的是，2022年工程會既然……我是可以肯定的，雖然那個時候你還不是主委，那時候是吳主委，吳主委在的時候本席也跟他就教過，因為淨零碳排本席非常重視，尤其是零碳建築，所以當時提出這個注意事項的時候，我們也認為不要馬上要求各部門一步到位，但我們至少了解一下各部門從2022年開始到現在2025年，過去兩年的時間裡面，哪一些部門做得比較好，哪些部門還有加強的空間，你們有沒有去做了解？"],["陳主任委員金德：不能用這個標準，因為檢核……"],["洪委員孟楷：不能用這個標準？這是工程會提出來的，然後你跟我講說不能用這個標準？"],["陳主任委員金德：檢核注意事項是一個定性，提醒機關辦理公共工程設計的時候要注意到減碳的相關作為，我們並沒有……"],["洪委員孟楷：哪些部門有做到，哪些部門沒做到？有沒有去了解？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為不是強制性的。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為不是強制性嘛。"],["陳主任委員金德：不是強制性的。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛，主委，所以你講出大白話了。"],["陳主任委員金德：而且這個方向……"],["洪委員孟楷：第一，2022年那時候是工程會自己提出來的，沒有強制性，也因此我們不了解到底哪個部門真的有比較符合這個標準，哪些部門沒有，因為工程會也沒有去做管考、考核。現在你要再做一個減碳作業參考指引，會不會有一個標準？"],["陳主任委員金德：減碳的部分各機關自己有……"],["洪委員孟楷：會不會有一個標準？會不會又變成沒有強制性？你今年年底提出來的會不會又是另外一個立意很良善，但是沒有強制性的標準？"],["陳主任委員金德：我再跟委員說明，工程會的目的是要建立一個比較完整的、所有工程減碳的排放係數，這個排放係數是包括工程單項，每個單項排碳多少，給各機關去參考。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是啊！主委，您把工程會看小了、做小了，工程會絕對不是只是提出一個標準給各機關參考，是國家重大工程的主管機關。"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，減碳有減碳的主管機關。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，本席提出來是對於工程會有非常高的期待，我們也希望……"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，減碳有減碳的主管機關。"],["洪委員孟楷：減碳有減碳的主管機關，重點在於你是國家重大工程的主管機關，能不能讓國家重大工程符合減碳的標準，這才是重點。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們針對工程的部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，本席是在野黨的委員，但我絕對不是跟你站在對立面，我們一起督促是要讓國家的重大工程更好。請聽本席一句話，本席過去就強調，如果我們現在要達成2050淨零碳排，往前回推，現在只剩25年，其中零碳建築是一個很重要的參考指標。我之前就提過，能不能從現在開始要求，至少公部門先行，國家的、公部門的建設，從現在開始就用零碳的建築標準去做，帶領私部門？如果我們連自己公部門編列預算的建築，都沒有辦法達到零碳建築，我們怎麼有辦法期待私部門、私人的企業、私人的建築來做零碳建築？"],["陳主任委員金德：委員，我可以說明嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：所以這些部分才是我們希望工程會能夠跳出來當領頭羊的部分。"],["陳主任委員金德：我可以說明嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，來，請說。"],["陳主任委員金德：每一個工程有它的目標，包括結構安全、方便性等等，減碳是其中之一，所以各部門的設計是一個最適設計，達到一個最好的目標，所以所謂……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，減碳跟安全是不衝突的。"],["陳主任委員金德：怎麼會……"],["洪委員孟楷：不會因為減碳所以犧牲安全，不會因為減碳而犧牲相關的目標。如果主委還停留在過去20年前這種思維的話，我真的很擔憂，我真的非常非常擔憂。"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，鋼構跟磚造完全不同，排碳不同，結構不同，所以要選擇鋼構，有選擇鋼構的理由。"],["洪委員孟楷：我跟你講，主委，選擇鋼構，你也可以用零碳建築的方向……"],["陳主任委員金德：我跟委員報告，沒有什麼零碳建築這件事情。"],["主席（李委員昆澤代）：大會報告一下，大會報告……"],["陳主任委員金德：任何事情都會有排碳，沒有零碳建築這件事情。"],["洪委員孟楷：可以用各種的政策目標手段，2014年英國就已經宣布他們接下來在2014年之後的國家重大公共工程都是用零碳建築。"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：別的國家做得到，現在2025年，過了十多年之後你跟我們講說沒辦法，要不要請教一下環境部？"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，我們現在呼吸就在排碳了，所以不會有零碳建築這件事。"],["主席：好，大會報告一下……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，這樣子你完全忽略跟模糊，也不了解零碳建築的定義。"],["陳主任委員金德：我是特別跟委員說明，沒有零碳這件事情。"],["主席：大會報告一下，大會報告一下……"],["洪委員孟楷：零碳建築……"],["陳主任委員金德：我們呼吸都在排碳，怎麼會有零碳建築這件事情？"],["洪委員孟楷：主委……"],["主席：先等一下。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒關係，這個是公共工程委員會主委所訂立的方向，請各位媒體朋友記得主委這一句話，如果連我們國家重大公共工程的主管機關，都跟世界趨勢背道而馳的話，這就是民進黨政府的態度，這就是現在環境部要訂出來的，如果連公共工程委員會都講沒有這件事情的話……"],["陳主任委員金德：可以減碳，但是沒有零碳這件事。"],["洪委員孟楷：代表國家從頭到尾都在騙人，國家要這樣騙人嗎？你要用這樣子的一個話術……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，本席很務實的、很專業的、很理性的要來跟你做討論，但是你用這樣的一個方向，其實凸顯的就是你對於本身公共工程的掌握真的不夠透澈，我非常遺憾，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員金德：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。跟大會報告一下，我是代理召委，我們也尊重相關的議事程序，每位委員是6加2分鐘，其實另外加時的時間已經超過6分鐘，已經再加8分鐘了。我們開飯店不怕人家吃飯，但它終究是有營業時間，超過營業時間我們很難再招待下去。"],["洪委員孟楷：請主委、未來備詢的官員好好針對問題回答問題，就不用講這麼久。"],["主席：我雙方都尊重，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。"],["主席：現在請林國成召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":222,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-3","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","黃健豪","林俊憲","蔡其昌","廖先翔","徐富癸","許智傑","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","陳俊宇","張啓楷","陳冠廷"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00014"}}}