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事實上我們要有效的如何管理那是最重要的 因為在護山造林之間如何取得一個橫頻這個聯合國的氣候變遷委員會也認為管理良好的人工林會比天然林更能有效的吸收二氧化碳\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 147.893, \"end\": 148.674, \"score\": 0.759}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 148.674, \"end\": 148.794, \"score\": 0.653}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 148.794, \"end\": 149.795, \"score\": 0.774}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 149.795, \"end\": 150.015, \"score\": 0.501}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 150.015, \"end\": 150.455, \"score\": 0.58}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 150.455, \"end\": 150.736, \"score\": 0.593}, {\"word\": \"伐\", \"start\": 150.736, \"end\": 150.976, \"score\": 0.709}, {\"word\": \"木\", \"start\": 150.976, \"end\": 152.137, \"score\": 0.697}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"產\"}, {\"word\": \"材\", \"start\": 152.137, \"end\": 152.377, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 152.377, \"end\": 152.597, \"score\": 0.515}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", 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00:00:51,603\n賴總統也在這個國家氣候變遷的對策委員會裡面也有提到這個政府跟民間都要協力來落實低碳生活我剛剛有聽到你跟其他的委員在所謂的零碳跟低碳其實呢\n\n4\n00:00:57,706 --> 00:01:25,065\n目標就算是零碳但是重點是要逐步的推動落實低碳那我們要為了全國的氣候治理來貢獻心力我們要跟世界同步的話我們要怎麼逐步的來推動尤其在公共工程委員會裡面可以做到的一件事在地採購推動落實我們的原物料在地採購我舉一個例子\n\n5\n00:01:26,587 --> 00:01:52,380\n以這個木材來講我們很多的公共工程裡面可能會用到木材那木材我們現在大部分是進口那其實我們在地的國產材現在農業部也正在推動那如果可以在地採購的話那降低這個運送過程的一個碳足跡那就是推動減量那就是推動低碳那我們\n\n6\n00:01:54,124 --> 00:02:07,061\n以距離來說我剛剛講的這個運送的距離如果以每公噸運送木材的碳排放量的亞洲運到台灣來大概每公噸增加18克的這個\n\n7\n00:02:09,184 --> 00:02:25,432\n我們的碳數如果是北美紐澳過來台灣的進口進來的每公噸大概增加約50公克如果是更遠的中南美洲來的進到台灣來的他增加的這個碳排大概有105公克\n\n8\n00:02:27,893 --> 00:02:46,610\n那有人會說那我們要伐木嗎國產材嘛對不對可是我們現在有在造林那造林呢事實上我們要有效的如何管理那是最重要的因為在護山造林之間如何取得一個橫頻這個聯合國的氣候變遷委員會也認為管理良好的人工林會比天然林更能有效的吸收二氧化碳\n\n9\n00:02:53,857 --> 00:03:18,958\n那意思是說樹木在成長的過程當中長到一定的高度長到一定的寬度那我們如果可以善用有效的管理的話那會讓我們的這個這個什麼林木的這個二氧化碳的一個減碳的一個效果是越來越好的所以呢以林務局曾經估算過每立方公尺的柳山的樹幹\n\n10\n00:03:20,299 --> 00:03:35,821\n可以固定640公斤的二氧化碳同樣重量的塑膠水泥或鋼鐵那碳排放比木材高出20到120倍那所以我從第一個這個是我從農業部領悟\n\n11\n00:03:37,543 --> 00:03:57,367\n署那邊所得到的一個統計資料我們現在國產材的一個生產量是逐步在提升沒錯但是呢如果沒有用政策的來推動的話我想它的速度是相當的慢那所以我也把這個運送的過程當中如果是以建材裡面的木材來看的話它的碳排量我覺得在地採購是可以減少的\n\n12\n00:04:03,948 --> 00:04:07,689\n那這個是跟公共工程委員會有什麼關係來下一頁卓榮泰院長也說我們工部門要率先進行建築轉型來帶動民間的合作嘛我們自己要先做啊剛才有其他委員也說啊是不是我們工部門可以開始來做起啊下一頁我們如何來帶動綠色服務綠色的這個建築產業所以呢譬如說\n\n13\n00:04:33,888 --> 00:04:55,776\n教育部呢也曾經跟我們農業部曾經合作要說我們的國中小的教室的課桌椅是不是鼓勵優先使用在地的國產材那台北市開始在做了那我曾經google一下的那個新聞過去呢陳俊濟部長跟教育部跟我們呢\n\n14\n00:04:58,020 --> 00:05:22,245\n這個在公開的場合也說我們也希望來逐步推動那這中間牽涉到一個有沒有可能在公共工程委員會的架構下有關公共工程的一個共同供應契約的採購委託書我們可以在採購地區就是原產地裡面有沒有可能是加注優先使用國產材的可能性主委\n\n15\n00:05:23,581 --> 00:05:42,902\n非常同意委員的見解就是說要減碳就地取材至少運輸的排碳就減少了嘛那另外林木的部分有效管理人工植林也許七年八年這個木頭就可以用了而且新的\n\n16\n00:05:43,723 --> 00:06:08,289\n成長過程固碳更有效率我們完全同意那麼我們也會在公共工程裡面做相關的討論來做指引或如同剛才委員說的看有沒有辦法相關的指引裡面就直接談到優先使用就地取材這個觀點優先使用我們國內那麼人造林的林木我們來研究\n\n17\n00:06:08,820 --> 00:06:37,039\n因為這個會直接就制度性的去推動優先使用這個在地的一個採購而且在地的一個國產材第二個呢這會呢讓我們第一個產業它能夠越來越進步越來越發展第三個在公共工程的一個低碳的減核表裡面這樣子的一個碳係數跟碳排量是可以很很好的有效率的而且比較明確的來計算\n\n18\n00:06:39,681 --> 00:06:52,740\n給予一個好的數字那讓我們會推動這個整個低碳的一個公共工程的一個KPI其實是比較有數字有效率的對不對主委\n\n19\n00:06:54,161 --> 00:07:14,461\n就是在採購契約也好或相關契約能夠比較明確的指引說優先使用就地取材這件事情那麼來共同協力整個公共工程減碳來達成這樣的目標甚至在低碳減核表裡面\n\n20\n00:07:15,021 --> 00:07:37,145\n也可以所以這有兩件事一個是採購契約委託書一個是低碳減核表如果可以推動的話優先使用在地採購在地的建材好不好這第二個接下來第二個議題就是剛剛李昆哲委員在關心我們這個公共工程委員會在去年有抽查這個橋樑那35座的橋樑需要\n\n21\n00:07:41,506 --> 00:07:55,907\n馬上派休就是所謂的U4嘛對不對那你剛剛有回答李委員是說你們會督促這個不管是中央政府管的還是地方政府管的有沒有提出這個馬上的一個改善計畫那請問你\n\n22\n00:07:58,410 --> 00:08:20,247\n給中央政府所管的部會也好或是各地方政府也好要求在什麼時間內提出來因為我為什麼要特別關心在你們的抽查裡面地方政府的32座裡面台中最多台中有13座那我們要去督促他們有沒有提出要立即修復的計畫\n\n23\n00:08:21,448 --> 00:08:38,556\n他要先提出我們才能來說是不是中央政府要幫忙給預算補助預算大家一起努力的來趕快的來該加強的加強該重建的該重建嘛對不對進數是多少多久\n\n24\n00:08:43,146 --> 00:08:53,577\n這個是去年的新聞喔去年已經有含送了啦那這個比較有收到他們回來的一個公文嗎回文是什麼\n\n25\n00:08:55,896 --> 00:09:23,155\n跟委員報告因為有主管機關我們去年是主動盤點然後寒松要求他們必須要針對優勢的部分要趕快去改善這個我們後續會去持續追蹤可是剛剛主委回答李委員說我們公共工程委員會有發函要求他們要主動提供有沒有要立即檢修的一個計畫有沒有補強的計畫那如果按照你的說法就是從去年7月公布了這個新聞之後到現在\n\n26\n00:09:26,117 --> 00:09:42,750\n都還沒有收到相關的回文囉工程會不是他的我當然知道你不是主管單位但是你的督促既然有發文出去了那意思是說中央部會這三座或者是地方政府這32座都\n\n27\n00:09:47,293 --> 00:10:05,364\n跟委員報告這個優勢的這立即要改善的部分我們除了要求這些機關競速題這個改善計畫之後我們會列為我們集合的主要目標工程會會主動去集合這35座是拜託因為既然你們抽查了剛剛立委員說其實這只是抽查你們\n\n28\n00:10:06,484 --> 00:10:34,773\n還有很多很多可能還沒有查到的或者是我們還沒有檢測到的我覺得雖然這個不是公共工程委員會的業務但是呢我們公共工程的所有的安全我覺得我們公共工程委員會也責無旁貸我們可以主動去針對危險的35座列為優先查核的目標是好不好那是不是近期內可以告訴我大概多久的時間內可以讓我們知道結果\n\n29\n00:10:35,984 --> 00:10:38,108\n一個月內好不好OK好好謝謝我們何新淳委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n739\t6264\t好 謝謝喔 謝謝抄偉那我們請我們陳經的主委陳主委謝謝委員長\n15717\t23865\t不好意思剛剛有事情耽擱了那主委好其實剛剛有其他委員有談到這個我們公共工程委員會還有包括剛剛你的業務報告裡面簡報裡面有談到這個未來這個節能減碳還有淨零碳排也是一個我們工程會的一個主要的業務的內容之一\n38919\t51603\t賴總統也在這個國家氣候變遷的對策委員會裡面也有提到這個政府跟民間都要協力來落實低碳生活我剛剛有聽到你跟其他的委員在所謂的零碳跟低碳其實呢\n57706\t85065\t目標就算是零碳但是重點是要逐步的推動落實低碳那我們要為了全國的氣候治理來貢獻心力我們要跟世界同步的話我們要怎麼逐步的來推動尤其在公共工程委員會裡面可以做到的一件事在地採購推動落實我們的原物料在地採購我舉一個例子\n86587\t112380\t以這個木材來講我們很多的公共工程裡面可能會用到木材那木材我們現在大部分是進口那其實我們在地的國產材現在農業部也正在推動那如果可以在地採購的話那降低這個運送過程的一個碳足跡那就是推動減量那就是推動低碳那我們\n114124\t127061\t以距離來說我剛剛講的這個運送的距離如果以每公噸運送木材的碳排放量的亞洲運到台灣來大概每公噸增加18克的這個\n129184\t145432\t我們的碳數如果是北美紐澳過來台灣的進口進來的每公噸大概增加約50公克如果是更遠的中南美洲來的進到台灣來的他增加的這個碳排大概有105公克\n147893\t166610\t那有人會說 那我們要伐木嗎 國產材嘛 對不對可是我們現在有在造林 那造林呢 事實上我們要有效的如何管理那是最重要的 因為在護山造林之間如何取得一個橫頻這個聯合國的氣候變遷委員會也認為管理良好的人工林會比天然林更能有效的吸收二氧化碳\n173857\t198958\t那意思是說 樹木在成長的過程當中長到一定的高度 長到一定的寬度那我們如果可以善用有效的管理的話那會讓我們的這個這個什麼 林木的這個二氧化碳的一個減碳的一個效果是越來越好的所以呢 以林務局曾經估算過每立方公尺的柳山的樹幹\n200299\t215821\t可以固定640公斤的二氧化碳同樣重量的塑膠水泥或鋼鐵那碳排放比木材高出20到120倍那所以我從第一個這個是我從農業部領悟\n217543\t237367\t署那邊所得到的一個統計資料我們現在國產材的一個生產量是逐步在提升沒錯但是呢如果沒有用政策的來推動的話我想它的速度是相當的慢那所以我也把這個運送的過程當中如果是以建材裡面的木材來看的話它的碳排量我覺得在地採購是可以減少的\n243948\t247689\t那這個是跟公共工程委員會有什麼關係來下一頁卓榮泰院長也說我們工部門要率先進行建築轉型來帶動民間的合作嘛我們自己要先做啊剛才有其他委員也說啊是不是我們工部門可以開始來做起啊下一頁我們如何來帶動綠色服務綠色的這個建築產業所以呢譬如說\n273888\t295776\t教育部呢也曾經跟我們農業部曾經合作要說我們的國中小的教室的課桌椅是不是鼓勵優先使用在地的國產材那台北市開始在做了那我曾經google一下的那個新聞過去呢陳俊濟部長跟教育部跟我們呢\n298020\t322245\t這個在公開的場合也說我們也希望來逐步推動那這中間牽涉到一個有沒有可能在公共工程委員會的架構下有關公共工程的一個共同供應契約的採購委託書我們可以在採購地區就是原產地裡面有沒有可能是加注優先使用國產材的可能性主委\n323581\t342902\t非常同意委員的見解就是說要減碳就地取材至少運輸的排碳就減少了嘛那另外林木的部分有效管理人工植林也許七年八年這個木頭就可以用了而且新的\n343723\t368289\t成長過程固碳更有效率我們完全同意那麼我們也會在公共工程裡面做相關的討論來做指引或如同剛才委員說的看有沒有辦法相關的指引裡面就直接談到優先使用就地取材這個觀點優先使用我們國內那麼人造林的林木我們來研究\n368820\t397039\t因為這個會直接就制度性的去推動優先使用這個在地的一個採購而且在地的一個國產材第二個呢這會呢讓我們第一個產業它能夠越來越進步越來越發展第三個在公共工程的一個低碳的減核表裡面這樣子的一個碳係數跟碳排量是可以很很好的有效率的而且比較明確的來計算\n399681\t412740\t給予一個好的數字 那讓我們會推動這個整個低碳的一個公共工程的一個KPI其實是比較有數字有效率的 對不對 主委\n414161\t434461\t就是在採購契約也好或相關契約能夠比較明確的指引說優先使用就地取材這件事情那麼來共同協力整個公共工程減碳來達成這樣的目標甚至在低碳減核表裡面\n435021\t457145\t也可以所以這有兩件事一個是採購契約委託書一個是低碳減核表如果可以推動的話優先使用在地採購在地的建材好不好這第二個接下來第二個議題就是剛剛李昆哲委員在關心我們這個公共工程委員會在去年有抽查這個橋樑那35座的橋樑需要\n461506\t475907\t馬上派休就是所謂的U4嘛對不對那你剛剛有回答李委員是說你們會督促這個不管是中央政府管的還是地方政府管的有沒有提出這個馬上的一個改善計畫那請問你\n478410\t500247\t給中央政府所管的部會也好或是各地方政府也好要求在什麼時間內提出來因為我為什麼要特別關心在你們的抽查裡面地方政府的32座裡面台中最多台中有13座那我們要去督促他們有沒有提出要立即修復的計畫\n501448\t518556\t他要先提出我們才能來說是不是中央政府要幫忙給預算補助預算大家一起努力的來趕快的來該加強的加強 該重建的該重建嘛對不對進數是多少 多久\n523146\t533577\t這個是去年的新聞喔去年已經有含送了啦那這個比較有收到他們回來的一個公文嗎回文是什麼\n535896\t563155\t跟委員報告因為有主管機關我們去年是主動盤點然後寒松要求他們必須要針對優勢的部分要趕快去改善這個我們後續會去持續追蹤可是剛剛主委回答李委員說我們公共工程委員會有發函要求他們要主動提供有沒有要立即檢修的一個計畫有沒有補強的計畫那如果按照你的說法就是從去年7月公布了這個新聞之後到現在\n566117\t582750\t都還沒有收到相關的回文囉工程會不是他的我當然知道你不是主管單位但是你的督促既然有發文出去了那意思是說中央部會這三座或者是地方政府這32座都\n587293\t605364\t跟委員報告這個優勢的這立即要改善的部分我們除了要求這些機關競速題這個改善計畫之後我們會列為我們集合的主要目標工程會會主動去集合這35座是拜託因為既然你們抽查了剛剛立委員說其實這只是抽查你們\n606484\t634773\t還有很多很多可能還沒有查到的或者是我們還沒有檢測到的我覺得雖然這個不是公共工程委員會的業務但是呢我們公共工程的所有的安全我覺得我們公共工程委員會也責無旁貸我們可以主動去針對危險的35座列為優先查核的目標是好不好那是不是近期內可以告訴我大概多久的時間內可以讓我們知道結果\n635984\t638108\t一個月內好不好OK好好謝謝我們何新淳委員\n","txt":"好 謝謝喔 謝謝抄偉那我們請我們陳經的主委陳主委謝謝委員長\n不好意思剛剛有事情耽擱了那主委好其實剛剛有其他委員有談到這個我們公共工程委員會還有包括剛剛你的業務報告裡面簡報裡面有談到這個未來這個節能減碳還有淨零碳排也是一個我們工程會的一個主要的業務的內容之一\n賴總統也在這個國家氣候變遷的對策委員會裡面也有提到這個政府跟民間都要協力來落實低碳生活我剛剛有聽到你跟其他的委員在所謂的零碳跟低碳其實呢\n目標就算是零碳但是重點是要逐步的推動落實低碳那我們要為了全國的氣候治理來貢獻心力我們要跟世界同步的話我們要怎麼逐步的來推動尤其在公共工程委員會裡面可以做到的一件事在地採購推動落實我們的原物料在地採購我舉一個例子\n以這個木材來講我們很多的公共工程裡面可能會用到木材那木材我們現在大部分是進口那其實我們在地的國產材現在農業部也正在推動那如果可以在地採購的話那降低這個運送過程的一個碳足跡那就是推動減量那就是推動低碳那我們\n以距離來說我剛剛講的這個運送的距離如果以每公噸運送木材的碳排放量的亞洲運到台灣來大概每公噸增加18克的這個\n我們的碳數如果是北美紐澳過來台灣的進口進來的每公噸大概增加約50公克如果是更遠的中南美洲來的進到台灣來的他增加的這個碳排大概有105公克\n那有人會說 那我們要伐木嗎 國產材嘛 對不對可是我們現在有在造林 那造林呢 事實上我們要有效的如何管理那是最重要的 因為在護山造林之間如何取得一個橫頻這個聯合國的氣候變遷委員會也認為管理良好的人工林會比天然林更能有效的吸收二氧化碳\n那意思是說 樹木在成長的過程當中長到一定的高度 長到一定的寬度那我們如果可以善用有效的管理的話那會讓我們的這個這個什麼 林木的這個二氧化碳的一個減碳的一個效果是越來越好的所以呢 以林務局曾經估算過每立方公尺的柳山的樹幹\n可以固定640公斤的二氧化碳同樣重量的塑膠水泥或鋼鐵那碳排放比木材高出20到120倍那所以我從第一個這個是我從農業部領悟\n署那邊所得到的一個統計資料我們現在國產材的一個生產量是逐步在提升沒錯但是呢如果沒有用政策的來推動的話我想它的速度是相當的慢那所以我也把這個運送的過程當中如果是以建材裡面的木材來看的話它的碳排量我覺得在地採購是可以減少的\n那這個是跟公共工程委員會有什麼關係來下一頁卓榮泰院長也說我們工部門要率先進行建築轉型來帶動民間的合作嘛我們自己要先做啊剛才有其他委員也說啊是不是我們工部門可以開始來做起啊下一頁我們如何來帶動綠色服務綠色的這個建築產業所以呢譬如說\n教育部呢也曾經跟我們農業部曾經合作要說我們的國中小的教室的課桌椅是不是鼓勵優先使用在地的國產材那台北市開始在做了那我曾經google一下的那個新聞過去呢陳俊濟部長跟教育部跟我們呢\n這個在公開的場合也說我們也希望來逐步推動那這中間牽涉到一個有沒有可能在公共工程委員會的架構下有關公共工程的一個共同供應契約的採購委託書我們可以在採購地區就是原產地裡面有沒有可能是加注優先使用國產材的可能性主委\n非常同意委員的見解就是說要減碳就地取材至少運輸的排碳就減少了嘛那另外林木的部分有效管理人工植林也許七年八年這個木頭就可以用了而且新的\n成長過程固碳更有效率我們完全同意那麼我們也會在公共工程裡面做相關的討論來做指引或如同剛才委員說的看有沒有辦法相關的指引裡面就直接談到優先使用就地取材這個觀點優先使用我們國內那麼人造林的林木我們來研究\n因為這個會直接就制度性的去推動優先使用這個在地的一個採購而且在地的一個國產材第二個呢這會呢讓我們第一個產業它能夠越來越進步越來越發展第三個在公共工程的一個低碳的減核表裡面這樣子的一個碳係數跟碳排量是可以很很好的有效率的而且比較明確的來計算\n給予一個好的數字 那讓我們會推動這個整個低碳的一個公共工程的一個KPI其實是比較有數字有效率的 對不對 主委\n就是在採購契約也好或相關契約能夠比較明確的指引說優先使用就地取材這件事情那麼來共同協力整個公共工程減碳來達成這樣的目標甚至在低碳減核表裡面\n也可以所以這有兩件事一個是採購契約委託書一個是低碳減核表如果可以推動的話優先使用在地採購在地的建材好不好這第二個接下來第二個議題就是剛剛李昆哲委員在關心我們這個公共工程委員會在去年有抽查這個橋樑那35座的橋樑需要\n馬上派休就是所謂的U4嘛對不對那你剛剛有回答李委員是說你們會督促這個不管是中央政府管的還是地方政府管的有沒有提出這個馬上的一個改善計畫那請問你\n給中央政府所管的部會也好或是各地方政府也好要求在什麼時間內提出來因為我為什麼要特別關心在你們的抽查裡面地方政府的32座裡面台中最多台中有13座那我們要去督促他們有沒有提出要立即修復的計畫\n他要先提出我們才能來說是不是中央政府要幫忙給預算補助預算大家一起努力的來趕快的來該加強的加強 該重建的該重建嘛對不對進數是多少 多久\n這個是去年的新聞喔去年已經有含送了啦那這個比較有收到他們回來的一個公文嗎回文是什麼\n跟委員報告因為有主管機關我們去年是主動盤點然後寒松要求他們必須要針對優勢的部分要趕快去改善這個我們後續會去持續追蹤可是剛剛主委回答李委員說我們公共工程委員會有發函要求他們要主動提供有沒有要立即檢修的一個計畫有沒有補強的計畫那如果按照你的說法就是從去年7月公布了這個新聞之後到現在\n都還沒有收到相關的回文囉工程會不是他的我當然知道你不是主管單位但是你的督促既然有發文出去了那意思是說中央部會這三座或者是地方政府這32座都\n跟委員報告這個優勢的這立即要改善的部分我們除了要求這些機關競速題這個改善計畫之後我們會列為我們集合的主要目標工程會會主動去集合這35座是拜託因為既然你們抽查了剛剛立委員說其實這只是抽查你們\n還有很多很多可能還沒有查到的或者是我們還沒有檢測到的我覺得雖然這個不是公共工程委員會的業務但是呢我們公共工程的所有的安全我覺得我們公共工程委員會也責無旁貸我們可以主動去針對危險的35座列為優先查核的目標是好不好那是不是近期內可以告訴我大概多久的時間內可以讓我們知道結果\n一個月內好不好OK好好謝謝我們何新淳委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.739 --> 00:06.264\n好謝謝喔謝謝抄偉那我們請我們陳經的主委陳主委謝謝委員長\n\n00:15.717 --> 00:23.865\n不好意思剛剛有事情耽擱了那主委好其實剛剛有其他委員有談到這個我們公共工程委員會還有包括剛剛你的業務報告裡面簡報裡面有談到這個未來這個節能減碳還有淨零碳排也是一個我們工程會的一個主要的業務的內容之一\n\n00:38.919 --> 00:51.603\n賴總統也在這個國家氣候變遷的對策委員會裡面也有提到這個政府跟民間都要協力來落實低碳生活我剛剛有聽到你跟其他的委員在所謂的零碳跟低碳其實呢\n\n00:57.706 --> 01:25.065\n目標就算是零碳但是重點是要逐步的推動落實低碳那我們要為了全國的氣候治理來貢獻心力我們要跟世界同步的話我們要怎麼逐步的來推動尤其在公共工程委員會裡面可以做到的一件事在地採購推動落實我們的原物料在地採購我舉一個例子\n\n01:26.587 --> 01:52.380\n以這個木材來講我們很多的公共工程裡面可能會用到木材那木材我們現在大部分是進口那其實我們在地的國產材現在農業部也正在推動那如果可以在地採購的話那降低這個運送過程的一個碳足跡那就是推動減量那就是推動低碳那我們\n\n01:54.124 --> 02:07.061\n以距離來說我剛剛講的這個運送的距離如果以每公噸運送木材的碳排放量的亞洲運到台灣來大概每公噸增加18克的這個\n\n02:09.184 --> 02:25.432\n我們的碳數如果是北美紐澳過來台灣的進口進來的每公噸大概增加約50公克如果是更遠的中南美洲來的進到台灣來的他增加的這個碳排大概有105公克\n\n02:27.893 --> 02:46.610\n那有人會說那我們要伐木嗎國產材嘛對不對可是我們現在有在造林那造林呢事實上我們要有效的如何管理那是最重要的因為在護山造林之間如何取得一個橫頻這個聯合國的氣候變遷委員會也認為管理良好的人工林會比天然林更能有效的吸收二氧化碳\n\n02:53.857 --> 03:18.958\n那意思是說樹木在成長的過程當中長到一定的高度長到一定的寬度那我們如果可以善用有效的管理的話那會讓我們的這個這個什麼林木的這個二氧化碳的一個減碳的一個效果是越來越好的所以呢以林務局曾經估算過每立方公尺的柳山的樹幹\n\n03:20.299 --> 03:35.821\n可以固定640公斤的二氧化碳同樣重量的塑膠水泥或鋼鐵那碳排放比木材高出20到120倍那所以我從第一個這個是我從農業部領悟\n\n03:37.543 --> 03:57.367\n署那邊所得到的一個統計資料我們現在國產材的一個生產量是逐步在提升沒錯但是呢如果沒有用政策的來推動的話我想它的速度是相當的慢那所以我也把這個運送的過程當中如果是以建材裡面的木材來看的話它的碳排量我覺得在地採購是可以減少的\n\n04:03.948 --> 04:07.689\n那這個是跟公共工程委員會有什麼關係來下一頁卓榮泰院長也說我們工部門要率先進行建築轉型來帶動民間的合作嘛我們自己要先做啊剛才有其他委員也說啊是不是我們工部門可以開始來做起啊下一頁我們如何來帶動綠色服務綠色的這個建築產業所以呢譬如說\n\n04:33.888 --> 04:55.776\n教育部呢也曾經跟我們農業部曾經合作要說我們的國中小的教室的課桌椅是不是鼓勵優先使用在地的國產材那台北市開始在做了那我曾經google一下的那個新聞過去呢陳俊濟部長跟教育部跟我們呢\n\n04:58.020 --> 05:22.245\n這個在公開的場合也說我們也希望來逐步推動那這中間牽涉到一個有沒有可能在公共工程委員會的架構下有關公共工程的一個共同供應契約的採購委託書我們可以在採購地區就是原產地裡面有沒有可能是加注優先使用國產材的可能性主委\n\n05:23.581 --> 05:42.902\n非常同意委員的見解就是說要減碳就地取材至少運輸的排碳就減少了嘛那另外林木的部分有效管理人工植林也許七年八年這個木頭就可以用了而且新的\n\n05:43.723 --> 06:08.289\n成長過程固碳更有效率我們完全同意那麼我們也會在公共工程裡面做相關的討論來做指引或如同剛才委員說的看有沒有辦法相關的指引裡面就直接談到優先使用就地取材這個觀點優先使用我們國內那麼人造林的林木我們來研究\n\n06:08.820 --> 06:37.039\n因為這個會直接就制度性的去推動優先使用這個在地的一個採購而且在地的一個國產材第二個呢這會呢讓我們第一個產業它能夠越來越進步越來越發展第三個在公共工程的一個低碳的減核表裡面這樣子的一個碳係數跟碳排量是可以很很好的有效率的而且比較明確的來計算\n\n06:39.681 --> 06:52.740\n給予一個好的數字那讓我們會推動這個整個低碳的一個公共工程的一個KPI其實是比較有數字有效率的對不對主委\n\n06:54.161 --> 07:14.461\n就是在採購契約也好或相關契約能夠比較明確的指引說優先使用就地取材這件事情那麼來共同協力整個公共工程減碳來達成這樣的目標甚至在低碳減核表裡面\n\n07:15.021 --> 07:37.145\n也可以所以這有兩件事一個是採購契約委託書一個是低碳減核表如果可以推動的話優先使用在地採購在地的建材好不好這第二個接下來第二個議題就是剛剛李昆哲委員在關心我們這個公共工程委員會在去年有抽查這個橋樑那35座的橋樑需要\n\n07:41.506 --> 07:55.907\n馬上派休就是所謂的U4嘛對不對那你剛剛有回答李委員是說你們會督促這個不管是中央政府管的還是地方政府管的有沒有提出這個馬上的一個改善計畫那請問你\n\n07:58.410 --> 08:20.247\n給中央政府所管的部會也好或是各地方政府也好要求在什麼時間內提出來因為我為什麼要特別關心在你們的抽查裡面地方政府的32座裡面台中最多台中有13座那我們要去督促他們有沒有提出要立即修復的計畫\n\n08:21.448 --> 08:38.556\n他要先提出我們才能來說是不是中央政府要幫忙給預算補助預算大家一起努力的來趕快的來該加強的加強該重建的該重建嘛對不對進數是多少多久\n\n08:43.146 --> 08:53.577\n這個是去年的新聞喔去年已經有含送了啦那這個比較有收到他們回來的一個公文嗎回文是什麼\n\n08:55.896 --> 09:23.155\n跟委員報告因為有主管機關我們去年是主動盤點然後寒松要求他們必須要針對優勢的部分要趕快去改善這個我們後續會去持續追蹤可是剛剛主委回答李委員說我們公共工程委員會有發函要求他們要主動提供有沒有要立即檢修的一個計畫有沒有補強的計畫那如果按照你的說法就是從去年7月公布了這個新聞之後到現在\n\n09:26.117 --> 09:42.750\n都還沒有收到相關的回文囉工程會不是他的我當然知道你不是主管單位但是你的督促既然有發文出去了那意思是說中央部會這三座或者是地方政府這32座都\n\n09:47.293 --> 10:05.364\n跟委員報告這個優勢的這立即要改善的部分我們除了要求這些機關競速題這個改善計畫之後我們會列為我們集合的主要目標工程會會主動去集合這35座是拜託因為既然你們抽查了剛剛立委員說其實這只是抽查你們\n\n10:06.484 --> 10:34.773\n還有很多很多可能還沒有查到的或者是我們還沒有檢測到的我覺得雖然這個不是公共工程委員會的業務但是呢我們公共工程的所有的安全我覺得我們公共工程委員會也責無旁貸我們可以主動去針對危險的35座列為優先查核的目標是好不好那是不是近期內可以告訴我大概多久的時間內可以讓我們知道結果\n\n10:35.984 --> 10:38.108\n一個月內好不好OK好好謝謝我們何新淳委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.739,"end":6.264,"text":"好 謝謝喔 謝謝抄偉那我們請我們陳經的主委陳主委謝謝委員長"},{"start":15.717,"end":23.865,"text":"不好意思剛剛有事情耽擱了那主委好其實剛剛有其他委員有談到這個我們公共工程委員會還有包括剛剛你的業務報告裡面簡報裡面有談到這個未來這個節能減碳還有淨零碳排也是一個我們工程會的一個主要的業務的內容之一"},{"start":38.919,"end":51.603,"text":"賴總統也在這個國家氣候變遷的對策委員會裡面也有提到這個政府跟民間都要協力來落實低碳生活我剛剛有聽到你跟其他的委員在所謂的零碳跟低碳其實呢"},{"start":57.706,"end":85.065,"text":"目標就算是零碳但是重點是要逐步的推動落實低碳那我們要為了全國的氣候治理來貢獻心力我們要跟世界同步的話我們要怎麼逐步的來推動尤其在公共工程委員會裡面可以做到的一件事在地採購推動落實我們的原物料在地採購我舉一個例子"},{"start":86.587,"end":112.38,"text":"以這個木材來講我們很多的公共工程裡面可能會用到木材那木材我們現在大部分是進口那其實我們在地的國產材現在農業部也正在推動那如果可以在地採購的話那降低這個運送過程的一個碳足跡那就是推動減量那就是推動低碳那我們"},{"start":114.124,"end":127.061,"text":"以距離來說我剛剛講的這個運送的距離如果以每公噸運送木材的碳排放量的亞洲運到台灣來大概每公噸增加18克的這個"},{"start":129.184,"end":145.432,"text":"我們的碳數如果是北美紐澳過來台灣的進口進來的每公噸大概增加約50公克如果是更遠的中南美洲來的進到台灣來的他增加的這個碳排大概有105公克"},{"start":147.893,"end":166.61,"text":"那有人會說 那我們要伐木嗎 國產材嘛 對不對可是我們現在有在造林 那造林呢 事實上我們要有效的如何管理那是最重要的 因為在護山造林之間如何取得一個橫頻這個聯合國的氣候變遷委員會也認為管理良好的人工林會比天然林更能有效的吸收二氧化碳"},{"start":173.857,"end":198.958,"text":"那意思是說 樹木在成長的過程當中長到一定的高度 長到一定的寬度那我們如果可以善用有效的管理的話那會讓我們的這個這個什麼 林木的這個二氧化碳的一個減碳的一個效果是越來越好的所以呢 以林務局曾經估算過每立方公尺的柳山的樹幹"},{"start":200.299,"end":215.821,"text":"可以固定640公斤的二氧化碳同樣重量的塑膠水泥或鋼鐵那碳排放比木材高出20到120倍那所以我從第一個這個是我從農業部領悟"},{"start":217.543,"end":237.367,"text":"署那邊所得到的一個統計資料我們現在國產材的一個生產量是逐步在提升沒錯但是呢如果沒有用政策的來推動的話我想它的速度是相當的慢那所以我也把這個運送的過程當中如果是以建材裡面的木材來看的話它的碳排量我覺得在地採購是可以減少的"},{"start":243.948,"end":247.689,"text":"那這個是跟公共工程委員會有什麼關係來下一頁卓榮泰院長也說我們工部門要率先進行建築轉型來帶動民間的合作嘛我們自己要先做啊剛才有其他委員也說啊是不是我們工部門可以開始來做起啊下一頁我們如何來帶動綠色服務綠色的這個建築產業所以呢譬如說"},{"start":273.888,"end":295.776,"text":"教育部呢也曾經跟我們農業部曾經合作要說我們的國中小的教室的課桌椅是不是鼓勵優先使用在地的國產材那台北市開始在做了那我曾經google一下的那個新聞過去呢陳俊濟部長跟教育部跟我們呢"},{"start":298.02,"end":322.245,"text":"這個在公開的場合也說我們也希望來逐步推動那這中間牽涉到一個有沒有可能在公共工程委員會的架構下有關公共工程的一個共同供應契約的採購委託書我們可以在採購地區就是原產地裡面有沒有可能是加注優先使用國產材的可能性主委"},{"start":323.581,"end":342.902,"text":"非常同意委員的見解就是說要減碳就地取材至少運輸的排碳就減少了嘛那另外林木的部分有效管理人工植林也許七年八年這個木頭就可以用了而且新的"},{"start":343.723,"end":368.289,"text":"成長過程固碳更有效率我們完全同意那麼我們也會在公共工程裡面做相關的討論來做指引或如同剛才委員說的看有沒有辦法相關的指引裡面就直接談到優先使用就地取材這個觀點優先使用我們國內那麼人造林的林木我們來研究"},{"start":368.82,"end":397.039,"text":"因為這個會直接就制度性的去推動優先使用這個在地的一個採購而且在地的一個國產材第二個呢這會呢讓我們第一個產業它能夠越來越進步越來越發展第三個在公共工程的一個低碳的減核表裡面這樣子的一個碳係數跟碳排量是可以很很好的有效率的而且比較明確的來計算"},{"start":399.681,"end":412.74,"text":"給予一個好的數字 那讓我們會推動這個整個低碳的一個公共工程的一個KPI其實是比較有數字有效率的 對不對 主委"},{"start":414.161,"end":434.461,"text":"就是在採購契約也好或相關契約能夠比較明確的指引說優先使用就地取材這件事情那麼來共同協力整個公共工程減碳來達成這樣的目標甚至在低碳減核表裡面"},{"start":435.021,"end":457.145,"text":"也可以所以這有兩件事一個是採購契約委託書一個是低碳減核表如果可以推動的話優先使用在地採購在地的建材好不好這第二個接下來第二個議題就是剛剛李昆哲委員在關心我們這個公共工程委員會在去年有抽查這個橋樑那35座的橋樑需要"},{"start":461.506,"end":475.907,"text":"馬上派休就是所謂的U4嘛對不對那你剛剛有回答李委員是說你們會督促這個不管是中央政府管的還是地方政府管的有沒有提出這個馬上的一個改善計畫那請問你"},{"start":478.41,"end":500.247,"text":"給中央政府所管的部會也好或是各地方政府也好要求在什麼時間內提出來因為我為什麼要特別關心在你們的抽查裡面地方政府的32座裡面台中最多台中有13座那我們要去督促他們有沒有提出要立即修復的計畫"},{"start":501.448,"end":518.556,"text":"他要先提出我們才能來說是不是中央政府要幫忙給預算補助預算大家一起努力的來趕快的來該加強的加強 該重建的該重建嘛對不對進數是多少 多久"},{"start":523.146,"end":533.577,"text":"這個是去年的新聞喔去年已經有含送了啦那這個比較有收到他們回來的一個公文嗎回文是什麼"},{"start":535.896,"end":563.155,"text":"跟委員報告因為有主管機關我們去年是主動盤點然後寒松要求他們必須要針對優勢的部分要趕快去改善這個我們後續會去持續追蹤可是剛剛主委回答李委員說我們公共工程委員會有發函要求他們要主動提供有沒有要立即檢修的一個計畫有沒有補強的計畫那如果按照你的說法就是從去年7月公布了這個新聞之後到現在"},{"start":566.117,"end":582.75,"text":"都還沒有收到相關的回文囉工程會不是他的我當然知道你不是主管單位但是你的督促既然有發文出去了那意思是說中央部會這三座或者是地方政府這32座都"},{"start":587.293,"end":605.364,"text":"跟委員報告這個優勢的這立即要改善的部分我們除了要求這些機關競速題這個改善計畫之後我們會列為我們集合的主要目標工程會會主動去集合這35座是拜託因為既然你們抽查了剛剛立委員說其實這只是抽查你們"},{"start":606.484,"end":634.773,"text":"還有很多很多可能還沒有查到的或者是我們還沒有檢測到的我覺得雖然這個不是公共工程委員會的業務但是呢我們公共工程的所有的安全我覺得我們公共工程委員會也責無旁貸我們可以主動去針對危險的35座列為優先查核的目標是好不好那是不是近期內可以告訴我大概多久的時間內可以讓我們知道結果"},{"start":635.984,"end":638.108,"text":"一個月內好不好OK好好謝謝我們何新淳委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":317,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（10時2分）謝謝召委，我們請陳金德主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["何委員欣純：不好意思，剛剛有事情耽擱了。主委好，其實剛剛其他委員有談到公共工程委員會，還有包括剛剛你的業務報告（簡報）裡面有談到未來節能減碳還有淨零碳排，也是工程會主要的業務內容之一，賴總統在國家氣候變遷對策委員會裡面也有提到，政府跟民間都要協力來落實低碳生活。我剛剛有聽到你跟其他委員在討論所謂的零碳跟低碳，其實目標就算是零碳，但是重點是要逐步地推動落實低碳，我們要為了全國的氣候治理來貢獻心力，我們要跟世界同步的話，我們要怎麼逐步地來推動？尤其在公共工程委員會裡面可以做到的一件事就是「在地採購」，推動落實我們的原物料在地採購。","我舉一個例子，以木材來講，我們很多的公共工程裡面可能會用到木材，木材現在大部分是進口，其實我們在地的國產材，現在農業部也正在推動，如果可以在地採購的話，降低運送過程的碳足跡，就是推動減量、就是推動低碳。我們以距離來說，我剛剛講的這個是運送距離，以每公噸運送木材的碳排放量來看，亞洲運到臺灣來大概每公噸增加18克的碳數，如果是北美、紐、澳進口到臺灣來的每公噸大概增加約50公克，如果是更遠的中南美洲進到臺灣來的，增加的碳排大概有105公克，有人會說我們要伐木嗎？因為要推動國產材，對不對？可是我們現在有在造林，事實上我們要如何有效的管理是最重要的，在護山、造林之間如何取得一個衡平。","聯合國氣候變遷委員會也認為管理良好的人工林會比天然林更能有效的吸收二氧化碳，意思就是說樹木在成長的過程當中，長到一定的高度、一定的寬度，如果我們可以有效的管理的話，林木的減碳的效果會越來越好。所以林務局曾經估算過，每立方公尺柳杉的樹幹可以固定640公斤的二氧化碳，同樣重量的塑膠、水泥或鋼鐵，碳排放比木材高出20到120倍。這是我從農業部林務署那邊所得到的一個統計資料，我們現在國產材的生產量逐步在提升沒錯，但是如果沒有用政策來推動的話，我想速度會相當慢。在運送的過程當中，以建材中的木材來看的話，我覺得在地採購是可以減少它的碳排量的，這跟公共工程委員會有什麼關係？卓榮泰院長也說公部門要率先進行淨零建築轉型來帶動民間的合作，我們自己要先做，剛剛其他委員也說是不是可以先從公部門做起。我們如何來帶動綠色服務、綠色的建築產業？譬如教育部也曾經跟農業部合作，鼓勵國中小的課桌椅優先使用在地的國產材，臺北市開始在做了，我曾經google了一下的新聞，過去陳駿季部長跟教育部在公開的場合也說希望逐步推動，這中間牽涉到一個問題，就是有沒有可能在公共工程委員會的架構下，有關公共工程的共同供應契約的採購委託書，可不可能可以在採購地區就是原產地加註優先使用國產材？主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：非常同意委員的見解，就是說要減碳，那麼就地取材至少運輸的排碳就減少了，另外，林木的有效管理，人工植林也許七、八年，木頭就可以用了，而且新的成長過程，固碳更有效率，我們完全同意，我們也會在公共工程委員會做相關的討論來做指引，或如同剛才委員說的，看有沒有辦法在相關的指引直接加註就地取材這個觀點，優先使用國內人造林的林木，我們來研究。"],["何委員欣純：因為這個可以直接制度性的去推動在地採購，優先使用在地的國產材。第二、這會讓產業越來越進步、越來越發展；第三、在公共工程低碳的檢核表裡面，這樣一個碳係數跟碳排量是可以很好、很有效率且比較明確的來計算，給予一個好的數字，這樣我們推動整個低碳公共工程的KPI其實是比較有效率的，對不對？主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：就是在採購契約或相關契約能夠比較明確的指引優先就地取材，共同協力整個公共工程減碳來達成這樣的目標。"],["何委員欣純：所以在低碳檢核表裡面也可以，所以這有兩件事，一個是採購契約委託書，一個是低碳檢核表。"],["陳主任委員金德：這個我們來處理。"],["何委員欣純：如果可以推動的話，優先在地採購、優先使用在地的建材，好不好？"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["何委員欣純：接下來第二個議題就是剛剛李昆澤委員在關心的，公共工程委員會去年有抽查橋梁，有35座的橋梁需要馬上派修，就是所謂的U4，你剛剛回答李委員說，不管是中央政府管的還是地方政府管的，你們會督促提出馬上的改善計畫，請問你會要求中央政府所管的部會或各地方政府在什麼時間內提出來？我為什麼要特別關心？因為你們抽查的結果，地方政府的32座裡面，以臺中最多，臺中有13座，我們要去督促他們提出立即修復的計畫，地方要先提出，中央政府才能說是不是要補助預算，大家一起努力的來做，該加強的加強，該重建的重建，對不對？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們會儘速函送……"],["何委員欣純：儘速是多久？這個是去年的新聞。"],["陳主任委員金德：去年已經有函送了，這個比較……"],["何委員欣純：那有收到他們回來的公文嗎？回文是什麼？"],["陳處長春錦：跟委員報告，因為有主管機關，我們去年是主動盤點，然後函送，要求他們必須要針對U4的部分趕快去改善，我們後續會持續追蹤。"],["何委員欣純：可是剛剛主委回答李委員說，公共工程委員會有發函要求他們主動提供有沒有要立即檢修的計畫、有沒有補強的計畫，如果按照你的說法，就是從去年7月公布了這個新聞之後，到現在都還沒有收到相關回文。"],["陳處長春錦：工程會不是它的主管機關。"],["何委員欣純：我當然知道你不是主管單位，但是你既然有發文出去了，那意思是中央部會這3座或地方政府的32座都沒有回復。"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，U4立即要改善的部分，我們除了要求這些機關儘速提改善計畫之外，我們也會列為稽核的主要目標，工程會會主動去稽核這35座。"],["何委員欣純：是，拜託！因為既然你們抽查了，剛剛李委員說其實這只是抽查，你們還有很多可能還沒有查到的，或者是還沒有檢測到的，我覺得雖然這不是公共工程委員會的業務，但是我們公共工程的安全，我覺得公共工程委員會也責無旁貸。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們可以主動把危險的35座列為優先查核的目標。"],["何委員欣純：是，是不是近期內可以告訴我大概多久的時間可以讓我們知道結果？"],["陳主任委員金德：好，儘速跟委員報告。"],["何委員欣純：一個月內，好不好？"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員。","現在請魯明哲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":222,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-3","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","黃健豪","林俊憲","蔡其昌","廖先翔","徐富癸","許智傑","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","陳俊宇","張啓楷","陳冠廷"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00014"}}}